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floridian
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Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« on: Nov 30th, 2006, 1:06pm » |
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Quote:There is a remarkable article in the latest issue of the American Jewish weekly, Forward. It calls for President Bush to be impeached and put on trial "for misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany and lost them".
To describe Iraq as the most foolish war of the last 2,014 years is a sweeping statement, but the writer is well qualified to know.
He is Martin van Creveld, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and one of the world's foremost military historians. Several of his books have influenced modern military theory and he is the only non-American author on the US Army's list of required reading for officers.
Professor van Creveld has previously drawn parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, and pointed out that almost all countries that have tried to fight similar wars during the last 60 years or so have ended up losing. Why President Bush "nevertheless decided to go to war escapes me and will no doubt preoccupy historians to come," he told one interviewer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1653454,00.html
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vig
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #1 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 1:27pm » |
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My guess STILL is that W. wanted personal revenge on Saddam Hussein.
He got it.
He won, let's go home.
my $.02
(we lost though)
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BarbaraD
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #2 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 2:29pm » |
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He got Hussain, but at what COST? And destroyed a country (with thousands of years of history) and killed who knows how many thousands of people.
I heard that statement from the Prof seeking impeachment and the reasons.
Even Nixon resigned (after Agnew did) and it all worked out well. We had a President who hadn't been elected - I liked Jerry Ford.
Right now we've just got a mess and it's getting worse. When grown people argue over what to call the war. I don't care if it's Civil or Revolutionary -- we just need to let them fight each other and bring our guys home. At least Hussain kept things in order. Bet he could get reelected right now....
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Bob P
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #3 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 2:52pm » |
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Dubya still gets to call the shots and do it his way.
Whine on!
Why would anyone want to identify with a traitor like Kerry?
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| « Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2006, 5:29pm by Bob P » |
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floridian
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #4 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 3:01pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 2:52pm, Bob P wrote:Dubya still gets to call the shots and do it his way.
Whine on!
Why would nayone want to identify with a traitor like Kerry? |
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I don't think the prof intended to identify with Kerry, but when he said that this was the most foolish war in 2014 years, it seemed to fit with Kerry's statement that if you keep stupid, you do stupid things.
The fact that Bush did it his way for eight years won't be forgotten, until it comes time for the conservatives to exonerate him. "Bush tried, but his hands were tied by the liberal something or other..."
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Brew
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #5 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 3:18pm » |
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Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....
The one thing Kerry supporters will never answer is, "How do you propose we keep America safe from a pretty sizeable group of radical Muslims who are hell-bent on killing as many of us as they can?
When is somebody going to answer that?
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BarbaraD
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #6 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 4:25pm » |
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Streghten the IMMIGRATION laws and KEEP UP with the aliens. America has the loosest immigration people of any country I've been in.
Then round up all the ones who's visa's have expired and ship 'em home.
But then they'd have to have a committee to "explore" that one and then they'd have to agree on what to call it and I figure about 2010 they MIGHT get around to holding some meetings to call each other names.
There's an answer out there. But everyone is too busy calling each other names to try to find it. I'm just disgusted with both dems and reps.
The dumbest thing I've heard today is keeping a church group (19 churches) from feeding the homeless because they're kitchens haven't had a health inspection (covered dish from a lot of parishioners). I think that one's gonna be fought. People starving and the GOVERNMENT is trying to tell people how to feed them.
Hugs BD
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Brew
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #7 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 5:23pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 4:25pm, BarbaraD wrote:Streghten the IMMIGRATION laws and KEEP UP with the aliens. America has the loosest immigration people of any country I've been in.
Then round up all the ones who's visa's have expired and ship 'em home.
But then they'd have to have a committee to "explore" that one and then they'd have to agree on what to call it and I figure about 2010 they MIGHT get around to holding some meetings to call each other names.
There's an answer out there. But everyone is too busy calling each other names to try to find it. I'm just disgusted with both dems and reps.
The dumbest thing I've heard today is keeping a church group (19 churches) from feeding the homeless because they're kitchens haven't had a health inspection (covered dish from a lot of parishioners). I think that one's gonna be fought. People starving and the GOVERNMENT is trying to tell people how to feed them.
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Can't disagree with a thing you've written, BD. Except that tough immigration legislation and enforcement will be even harder to come by after January.
Stalemate can be a VERY GOOD THING - except in matters of national security. This is where a handful of politicians from both sides of the aisle will lead us down a path of pure destruction. And sooner rather than later.
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tanner
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #8 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 5:36pm » |
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Sorry Flo, the only parallels between Iraq and Vietnam are all of the catch phrase's that the Libs are using.
We "Lost" in Vietnam because of traitors like Kerry and Kennedy and Jane Commie Bit#h Fonda and all of the no brain left wingers that allowed themselves to be convinced that we were fighting an immoral losing battle without just cause. Why did we go there? Wasn't oil. I know we must have wanted their freaking French rubber plantations.
When I enlisted I would have sworn that it was to give us a Democratic buffer zone between Communist China and the rest of Southeast Asia. I kinda wish you Libs would have let us win that one then maybe we wouldn't have terrorist groups to worry about in every single one of the country's that we left hanging. We could use an extra friend re: N. Korea right about now too.
Quit trying to tie the two together!
My answer to Brew's ? above is KILL as many When we can Where we can and How we can!
Prop my old ass up and hand me a gun and I will happily go shoot every towelhead that so much as covers his face with a rag for the sake of anonymity.
 ......Tim
sorry i have to keep editing but political posting and high Kips just don't seem to go together 
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| « Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2006, 5:42pm by tanner » |
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vig
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #9 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 6:55pm » |
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What happened to the conflict in Afghanistan?
Weren't we there to take out the Taliban?
I think we ALL supported taking them out COMPLETELY!
but they're back, and they're back because we got distracted and preoccupied by the Iraq mistake....
We had the world's support to go and 'tanner' them and what did W do with that opportunity?
(I'm no fan of Kerry, btw)
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BobG
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #10 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 7:45pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 2:52pm, Bob P wrote:Dubya still gets to call the shots and do it his way. Just because he's been wrong from the beginning is no reason to stop now.
Whine on!
Why would anyone want to identify with a AWOL sissy-boy traitor like Kerry Bush? |
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There, fixed it.
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BMoneeTheMoneeMan
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #11 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 7:47pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 3:18pm, brewcrew wrote:Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....
The one thing Kerry supporters will never answer is, "How do you propose we keep America safe from a pretty sizeable group of radical Muslims who are hell-bent on killing as many of us as they can?
When is somebody going to answer that? |
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I am not a Kerry supporter, but I'll answer it anyway, Bill.
We should go after the terrorists and kill them and destroy all their shit. Bush just wont do it. He said that he would, but then failed terribly.
Iraq is not, nor has it been in decades, even in the top 10 list of terrorist freindly nations. Maybe we should start with the most dangerous of regeimes and keep fucking them up until we fuck them up so bad they CHOOSE to not be terrorists anymore.
Thats it in a nutshell. If you want to do something about terrorism, you have to actually address the terrorists. Whether you shoot at them, or whether you just want to talk to them and ask them nicely, you have to address the terrorists, not Iraq.
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JeffB
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #12 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 7:53pm » |
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We must get the job done. Do whatever it takes to win.
Kill em all and start over!
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #13 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 8:13pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 7:47pm, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:| We should go after the terrorists and kill them and destroy all their shit. Bush just wont do it. He said that he would, but then failed terribly. |
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I think this is the first time I agreed with you, Brain.....but, I do on that one!
In my mind we have three options......
1) Bomb every city we find them in killing civlians (Not PC)
2) Pull out altogether. (Then the world loses all around)
3) Getting the folks in Iraq to rat on the insurgents (Which aint happen yet and aint going to)
Other than that......we can unleash the 132 battlion strong Iraqi army (i could be wrong on that number)to take our place and watch for awhile as we pull out.
WTF do I know....I just own a welding shop 
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fubar
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #14 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 8:16pm » |
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Saudi Arabia
Iran
Syria
ALL more trouble than Iraq... MOST of them are funding/supporting the fight against the infidels in Iraq.
When is the USA going to stop whining and pissing and moaning? We are in A HOLY WAR. Not because we want to be, but because THEY MADE IT A HOLY WAR.
This country is so full of traitors that it probably cannot avoid being destroyed by this HOLY WAR. We refuse to accept reality... that these fuckheads are out to KILL each and every one of us. It's time to open up our eyes and fight the war that we have been forced to fight. Instead, we are self-destructing at the hands of a traitorous media and left-wing radicals who want to see our country destroyed.
What part of I AM GOING TO KILL YOU is hard to understand? Do you think they just need counseling? You are not fighting reasonable people! You are fighting a DOGMA that REQUIRES your death! Why is that so hard to understand?
But, I guess I shouldn't sugar coat it.
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #15 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 8:22pm » |
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Britney shaves.........................sorry for the interuption
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #16 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 8:25pm » |
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LOL 
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| « Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2006, 8:30pm by Shedz » |
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #17 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 8:31pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 8:16pm, fubar wrote:Instead, we are self-destructing at the hands of a traitorous media and left-wing radicals who want to see our country destroyed.
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I disagree with that last statement there Shawn,
I think we're losing because George ignored the advice of his generals to go big. We were ALL behind him at the start and his incompetence and slow-wittedness have resulted in the mess we are now in.
Should we go at this whole hog?
Are we ready to restart the draft?
We're running out of soldiers.
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #18 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 8:36pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 8:31pm, vig wrote:| We're running out of soldiers. |
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That statement is oh so true, we got dudes on their fourth tour of this shit.
I have never heard of anyone touring four times in battle!
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #19 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 9:41pm » |
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"There is a remarkable article in the latest issue of the American Jewish weekly, Forward. It calls for President Bush to be impeached and put on trial "for misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany and lost them". "
Lol.....9 BC? That is remarkable. Isn't this the same dude who said "Obviously, we don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons and I don't know if they're developing them, but if they're not developing them, they're crazy." ?
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Charlie
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #20 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 11:34pm » |
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Quote:| Dubya still gets to call the shots and do it his way. |
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Thank God. Things are going so well.
It's dangerous when those in charge of strategy and the welfare of the country cease to listen to other ideas and advice....even if they don't act on it.....and call everyone not on the same dogeared page: traitors. It's happened before with terrible results.
It's nice that Saddam is out of the picture but without him, we have made Iran the big player in the area. He was a horror but he was like Mussolini. While Mussolini made the trains run on time, Saddam was the only thing the kept the fanatics in check. The history-ignoring cult in Washington is also learning that the bizarre idea that these Islamic fanatics would welcome an invasion by a country that spends so much time promoting itself as a Christian-based society, is beyond stupid.....I have my doubts.
Until now, we have had a nice big ocean or two between us and those "other" places. Now we have to learn what Europeans have lived with for centuries: We are vulnerable. We have to deal with the rest of the world and it's never going to be as cosy over here as it was. It's hard for us and it's one reason that our response has missed most of the target. We aren't very good at it yet. We are a great people but when we are not wanted, our options are limited.
It will take a long time to get around this mess. We are stuck for a long time. Even if we decided to split, it would take months, maybe years. We can't leave it as it is now anyway. Somethings gotta give.
Sorry, but Vietnam was lost because the North was fighting a nationalist battle. We were not. They would still be fighting. Stopping the Chinese is something you can't do without nukes and even Nixon knew better. By the way, if you want to be cute: Republican traitors were in charge when the war ended, not patriotic Democrats.
We needed Ike.
Charlie
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #21 on: Dec 1st, 2006, 1:41am » |
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 11:34pm, Charlie wrote:
Sorry, but Vietnam was lost because the North was fighting a nationalist battle. We were not. They would still be fighting. Stopping the Chinese is something you can't do without nukes and even Nixon knew better. By the way, if you want to be cute: Republican traitors were in charge when the war ended, not patriotic Democrats.
We needed Ike.
Charlie |
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Charlie, sorry to chop your post up like this but you will note that I have taken nothing out of context!
Since the part I left in as well as your opening shot seem to be aimed directly at me I thought it fair to only respond to this portion.
Nationalist battle? hmmm...Spanish American ring a bell? How about our own War of Independence? Weren't we trying to do the same thing as the South Vietnamese and seperate ourselves from what we considered to be a hostile and unfair Government?
As to who was in office at the end of the Vietnam conflict....give me a freakin break! Johnson and his ilk had long since taken away our power to win that one! Do you need a timeline of the entire buildup and then downfall of our efforts there. I have already posted it once so it's there in the archives somewhere.
Nukes to win? The Chinese had absolutely no long range capabilities at that time and for that matter didn't even possess the weapons! It would have only taken a secure border with a Democratic government in place that had friends (like us) who did possess the power and the will (I wish) to put an end to any further incursions.
Keep voting for the Kennedy's Charlie and eventually it will all be fine.
Every name I mentioned using the "traitor" tag was and is arguably entitled to the word plus in one case murderer seems to fit. If you want to add every Commander in Chief that has ever bent the rules to achieve his goals it's gonna be a real long list.
Always fun to disagree with you my friend  ...Tim
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #22 on: Dec 1st, 2006, 6:17am » |
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Nice try, but sorry, I don’t buy it one bit. Besides that, anyone that agrees with a arrogant jerk like Kerry is in very bad company… The forensics of his track record speak volumes and his recent words clearly show him for what he is… a self-serving traitor.
If you want some real history without all the liberal jabberwocky, here are a few facts from far more learned authors that place the situation with radical jihadist ISLAM in Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and the world in perspective. It’s an easy but brutal read even for liberals who’ve suffered from a politically correct education devoid of real fact, and un-revised history. For the rest of us, it’s just plain scary… If the following gives you cause for concern and a desire to read more, please go to the header “ISLAM” at the following URL and read for yourself. http://www.weeks-g.dircon.co.uk/quotes__i.htm There’s so much more to read.
What we facing are shades of ISLAM from black to gray, peaceful moderates to rabid suicidal animals, but make no mistake, what we are facing a war of the worlds between ISLAM and the INFIDELS… And WE, here in the US and other western nations, are the INFIDELS!
Leon Uris put it best in his book, The Haj – 1984. “So before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world. And all of us against the infidel.”
Take a look at the history of ISLAM and the bloody facts that “ISLAM rules, it is not ruled.”
“Genocide committed in the name of Allah: 3,000,000 Bangladeshi Hindus Killed during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. From 1894 to 1896 Abdul Hamid, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, killed 150,000 Armenian Christians. In India, Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur, was burned to death along with his disciples by the Moghul ruler Aurangzeb in 1675. Another Sikh, Bhai Mati Das was sawn into right and left halves while he was still alive. In July 1974, Fahri Koroturk, the president of Turkey and his Islamic army killed 4,000 Christians living in Cyprus. From 1843 to 1846, Muslims massacred 10,000 Assyrian Christians including women and children. From 1915 to 1918 750,000 Assyrians were killed in the name of Islamic Jihad. In 1933 Iraqi soldiers murdered thousands of Assyrian villagers in Northern Iraq. Since 1990 Islamic fundamentalists brutally murdered more than 10,000 Kashmiri Hindus. Since 1960, Islamic dictators have killed over 30,000 Mauritanians. In 1980, 20,000 Syrians were murdered under the rule of Hafez Al-Assad, President of Syria. Since 1992, the Islamic fundamentalist army murdered 120,000 Algerians.” From: http://www.truthtree.com/islam/islam_menu.shtml
Take a look at writings in the Qur’an (QURAN). SURAH 9:29,
Mark Gabriel makes it very clear by summarizing it in simple English:
“Muslims must fight four kinds of people:
1. Those who don't believe in Allah
2. Those who don't believe in the last day
3. Those who do things that Allah and Muhammad have forbidden
4. Those who don't acknowledge Islam as the truth, i.e., "people of the Scripture," who are Jews and Christians.”
“If you fall into the 4th category, the followers of Muhammad’s writings give you three options:
1. Accept the message of Islam. (Convert to ISLAM)
2. Retain your Jewish or Christian faiths, but pay a special tax (jizyah), which is traditionally levied once a year.
3. Just Die!"
(Islam and Terrorism.Doc. 144 pp.73-74). //http:www.islam.org.au/articles/21/khilafa.htm
And, if you think being a liberal atheist will keep you safe, I wouldn't be whistling in the dark... you'll have a lot of serious Allah ass kissing to do and it’s still not going to help.
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vig
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #23 on: Dec 1st, 2006, 8:16am » |
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Where would we be today if we had continued pounding the carp out of Afghanistan and left Iraq alone?
WAAAAAAAY the 'F" ahead of where we are now, IMHO
That's the price we will all be paying for this 'misstep'.
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floridian
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Re: Military Historian Agrees with John Kerry
« Reply #24 on: Dec 1st, 2006, 10:13am » |
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on Dec 1st, 2006, 6:17am, Batch wrote:
Take a look at the history of ISLAM and the bloody facts that “ISLAM rules, it is not ruled.”
“Genocide committed in the name of Allah: 3,000,000 Bangladeshi Hindus Killed during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. From 1894 to 1896 Abdul Hamid, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, killed 150,000 Armenian Christians. In India, Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur, was burned to death along with his disciples by the Moghul ruler Aurangzeb in 1675. Another Sikh, Bhai Mati Das was sawn into right and left halves while he was still alive. In July 1974, Fahri Koroturk, the president of Turkey and his Islamic army killed 4,000 Christians living in Cyprus. From 1843 to 1846, Muslims massacred 10,000 Assyrian Christians including women and children. From 1915 to 1918 750,000 Assyrians were killed in the name of Islamic Jihad. In 1933 Iraqi soldiers murdered thousands of Assyrian villagers in Northern Iraq. Since 1990 Islamic fundamentalists brutally murdered more than 10,000 Kashmiri Hindus. Since 1960, Islamic dictators have killed over 30,000 Mauritanians. In 1980, 20,000 Syrians were murdered under the rule of Hafez Al-Assad, President of Syria. Since 1992, the Islamic fundamentalist army murdered 120,000 Algerians.” From: http://www.truthtree.com/islam/islam_menu.shtml
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Funny how none of my Greek relatives that lived through the Turkish invasion of Cyprus describe it as Islamic Genocide. Maybe because they saw it as Turkish imperialism, and it was a secular Turkish Government, not an "Islamic Army." And funny how they put a portion of the blame for the Cyprus crisis on Makarios, the Greek Archbishop who became President of Cyprus, who did nothing to ensure that the rights of the Turkish minority would be protected as Cyprus moved towards independence.
What about Christianity's role in the near extermination of the American Indian, slavery and the colonization of the 3rd world? Should we apply your same logic, and note that while there are some Christians that are moderate and some that are not, Christianity on the whole is a bloody, violent religion??
Me, I'm going out to buy the Left Behind video game: time to celebrate the death and eternal destruction of non-Christians. It's like Grand-Theft auto for the born-agains. What better way to spread the Gospel??
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