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Title: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by starlight on Jan 30th, 2008, 9:21pm Thought maybe some might be interested in reading this article--I don't understand all the terms, but sounds like someone is doing some hard thinking trying to come up with a theory of cluster headache. http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/jnnp.2005.081158v1 |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by starlight on Jan 30th, 2008, 9:24pm Actually, it's a letter to an editor, not really an article but still it's worth reading. |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by tommyD on Jan 31st, 2008, 7:06am There's much about this I don't understand.... but I get the feeling this is more about an on-going argument among researchers than it is about actually looking for a cause of clusters. I will bet you that Dr. Gupta doesn't get along well with Dr. Ferrari... Quote:
Gupta seems to be saying that collecting data is worse than useless unless one has preconceptions about what the data should say. I could be misinterpreting this, but it sounds like bullshit to me. He also rejects placing much importance on the results of neuro-imaging because "nothing can supplant careful thinking about the research question(s)." which makes me cynically suspect the pictures don't back up his theories. And some of the statements Gupta makes seem a little odd to me (at one point he seems to be saying clusters hurt more because we don't vomit like migraineurs do), but that could be due to my own ignorance. Another thing that makes me wonder what this is really about is that most of the references Gupta makes are to his own papers, some of which haven't been published yet. But maybe I'm just in a bad mood... -tommyD |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by Kevin_M on Jan 31st, 2008, 8:06am He also takes a different approach to CH than Goalsby and makes competing discussion for peripheral involvement rather than a hypothamalus/neural origin. He seems to want a paradigm shift to consider his peripheral inclusion of primary involvement more in any "central concept", which he repeats considerably. from the posted article: Quote:
other letters of his: Quote:
Quote:
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by George_J on Jan 31st, 2008, 8:44am So--what are these unspecified "peripheral non-neuronal mechanisms" of which he speaks? Just askin'. Best, George |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by AlienSpaceGuy on Jan 31st, 2008, 9:03am Well, at least Dr. Vinod K Gupta writes a better Englisch than Dr. Ali Sultaneh. ::) [smiley=smokin.gif] |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by monty on Jan 31st, 2008, 9:22am on 01/31/08 at 08:44:40, George_J wrote:
Things like nitric oxide, calcium channel activity (and other ions), CGRP, substance P, endothelin, circulating histamine, interleukins, etc. |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by monty on Jan 31st, 2008, 9:35am on 01/31/08 at 07:06:22, tommyD wrote:
I think he is saying that vomitting during a migraine can sometimes bring relief of that pain, but doesn't in cluster headache. He also suggests that vomitting in CH might make things worse - not sure about the basis for that. |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by starlight on Jan 31st, 2008, 10:27am I googled this guy's name after reading this and I found an article he wrote in which he does say what he proposes--it's interesting. Yes, he does disagree with Goadsby--but I wouldn't go so far as to call what he says "BS"--it does seem well thought out--not saying I agree--but the guy definitely seems to care about CH. Let me try to find the article--if I don't get it up here now I'll have it up later. |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by starlight on Jan 31st, 2008, 10:33am Here it is--it's a little weird to read b/c it's based on research that was done about someone who lost an eye, but anyway, if you can get through it he says what he proposes about CH--unless I'm wrong, and Lord knows someone on here will tell me if I am--I think he believes that it has to do with the eye and with abberations in cranial something or other--it's hard to read what he's saying and not at least think he may have a point. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2377/5/6/comments#201461 |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by starlight on Jan 31st, 2008, 10:39am Also, here's a letter he wrote to Goadsby: http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/76/3/301 I take no position either way, plus this stuff isn't exactly easy reading. Reading this stuff for me just gives me more information about the condition, and if anyone else finds it useful or food for thought, that is a good thing. |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by starlight on Jan 31st, 2008, 10:42am one point he does make that I like is that he at least tries to address the issue of why CH are usually one-sided or as he puts it "locked in" (to that one side)--I know some people do switch sides and he knows that too--but he's just looking at that general characteristic and trying to understand it. |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by monty on Jan 31st, 2008, 11:32am Good to see someone kicking the tires and challenging the conventional wisdom. Personally, I think that hypothalamus activation is necessary, but not not enough to explain clusters. So I usually cringe when I see someone explain clusters as a broken hypothalamus. Dr. Gupta seems to be more of a general headache guy than a CH specialist. But he has some interesting food for thought. For example, atenolol is known to be useful in migraines. But it doesn't really cross the blood-brain barrier. So maybe it is acting peripherally. He makes the same argument for verapamil ... verapamil does cross the BBB, but Gupta argues that it is so little and so slow that verapamil can't be acting on the hypothalamus. (edited to add this link, which suggests that verapamil does not cross the blood-brain barrier. So how does it act on the hypothalamus?) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYR-3R38TKR-P&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=063fe0438db7fec2c42161c8a4a22b93 |
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by Kevin_M on Jan 31st, 2008, 11:46am on 01/31/08 at 11:32:21, monty wrote:
I don't think that has been any secret or been understood to work on the hypothalamus anyway. Thanks to the discussions of the 2003 convention being recorded, this was mentioned: Quote:
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Title: Re: CH article--breaks down some useful points Post by monty on Jan 31st, 2008, 12:05pm Thanks, that sounds reasonable as well. I am not saying that the hypothalamus is not an essential factor in CH. Just that there is a bigger circuit or system involved. I wonder how many people (if any) get only phantom clusters with no severe pain? If their hypothalamus misfires the way ours does, but the trigeminal is not compromised or susceptible, would they have clusters?? |
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