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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2003 >> CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
        
(Message started by: maria9 on Oct 11^th, 2003, 6:18pm)

Title: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by maria9 on Oct 11^th, 2003, 6:18pm

CH is thought to result from a defect in the hypothalamus which results in a faulty serotonin- regulating mechanism. During a CH cycle, CH-ers tend to have lower level of serotonin. Lower levels of serotonin cause the vessels to dilate causing the CH pain. Most episodic CH'ers typically have nightly attacks which are triggered by the Rapid Eye Movement (REM) stage of sleep. During REM sleep, the neurotransmitters norepinephrine, serotonin, and histamine stop discharging completely, and the brain activity is dominated by neurons using another chemical acetylcholine. The reason the noreadrenaline and serotonin cease during REM sleep is to disable movement of the body and to reduce awareness of the environment as well as to rest or regenerate their transmitters. While serotonin levels in the brain are practically at zero during REM sleep, having a cluster attack results in an increase in serotonin levels. Sleep deprivation is often a result of cluster headaches at the peak of the cycle as I for one would have a CH every two hours at night, presumably each time just as I was entering the REM stage of sleep. I am assuming I never got to reap the rewards of the benefits of the REM sleep. Interestingly enough, one of the benefits of sleep deprivation is an increase in serotonin levels in the brain. Sleep deprivation has an anti-depressant effect; it mimics the SSRIs causing a net increase in the amount of serotonin available to recipient cells. Given these facts, I hope I have them right, here are my questions:

Is CH a "natural" method (albeit exceedingly cruel!) the hypothalamus uses in order to try to raise levels of serotonin or to restore the serotonin-regulating mechanism? Given that CH's and sleep deprivation both raise levels of serotonin.

There have been several postings here on this board and the UK site that report a longer cycle when put on preventatives such as Verapamil. Although few report 100% success in totally eradicating CH attacks the numbers of attacks lessen. I'm assuming this medicated group is not getting the every 2 hour nightly visit as I was during the peak of the cycle. Do you think interfering with the natural course of the cycle with the peak and resultant sleep deprivation can cause the cycle to take longer than normal to abate?

Since research has also reported that acetylcholine levels are also low in CH'ers, does this mean that during REM sleep when serotonin levels are close to non-existence, that the acetylcholine is not doing it's job in terms of maintaining smooth muscle reactivity, e.g. vessel dilation?

Curious to hear your responses,

Maria

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by brewcrew on Oct 11^th, 2003, 8:47pm

Last year I was diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea. The sleep study I had done indicated that I was waking up an average of 32 times an hour in order to initiate breathing again. As a result, I was never getting any REM sleep - no wonder I was dragging my @$$ around for years!

Anyhow, I made the connection in my head - what if this is it? What if the cluster headaches go away once I get my Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) machine? I wasn't in cycle when I got it in January, so I had to wait. Sure as hell, I got slammed with another cycle in March and have had two more since then.

For me, there seems to be no connection between the two. I'm sleeping MUCH better, but am still being visited by the beast (no more or less frequently than before the CPAP).

Bill

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by eyes_afire on Oct 11^th, 2003, 9:14pm

Well Maria, this is a very interesting thread you've started. I'm very interested in CH, sleep, and acetylcholine seeing as how SSRI's don't do a damn thing for many here (myself included) and that acetylcholine works in balance with serotonin. But I haven't heard any recent reports of success with Arricept either. But maybe not enough people are trying it. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here.

--- Steve (very tired)

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by ave on Oct 12^th, 2003, 4:37am

My mite on sleep...

Since I was a little girl I have had "trouble" sleeping.

There is a pattern that seems to come in waves, when I can not fall asleep (no, not because of problems or anxiety or anything) and will get up after an hour, to sit downstairs, read a book, often have a cup of coffee!!!, and only after that I can find it in me to sleep again.
But sometimes it just will not happen. I'd just sit the night out.

This pattern was already in place long BEFORE I had clusters. Nowadays I am slowly discovering that such a wave of sleeplessness is a warning of the beast's arrival. (And although thanks to shrooms his attacks are not painful any longer, I still can feel it when he visits.)

I also have read post from people "blaming" irregular sleeping habits as a trigger for clusters. I have the feeling that it is the other way round. It is maybe the onset of a cluster episode that causes sleepnessless. Or to be even more precise, the onset of a cluster episode seems for me to be accompanied by irregular sleeping.

This is like the discovery thee Dutch cluster guru, Dr. Ferrari, mentioned, offhand, in his maiden lecture: it is not chocolate that is a trigger for migraines. It is the physical make up of somebody about to have a migraine, that cause a craving for chocolate.

Maybe - maybe we have triggers all ass-backwards.

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by sandie99 on Oct 12^th, 2003, 4:47am

Maria,

this was very interesting information indeed! :)
I have been wondering how serotonin is involved with ch. A friend of mine suffers from depression and she mentioned that depressed people often have low levels of serotonin. I wonder, if this is one of the reasons why also us, ch-folkes, get depressed? ::)

Best wishes & pain-free days,
sandie99 :D

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by maria9 on Oct 12^th, 2003, 5:25pm

Thanks for all for replies.

Bill,

There are a number of studies confirming that a high percentage of CH'ers also suffer from sleep apnea. While sleep apnea may possibly trigger or aggravate a CH during susceptible periods (cluster cycles), I don't believe anyone has reported success in "curing" their CH's after undergoing the continuous positive air pressure (CPAP) to treat the sleep apnea.

Sandie,

I think any of us could be diagnosed as depressed if asked about the following during a CH cycle: changes in sleeping patterns; weight change, appetite change; loss of energy; difficulty concentrating; feelings of worthlessness; loss of interest in most daily activities; being in a depressed mood for at least 2 weeks; and the most horrifying one for our condition - thoughts of suicide.

Maria

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by brewcrew on Oct 12^th, 2003, 6:49pm

on 10/12/03 at 17:25:35, maria9 wrote:

...While sleep apnea may possibly trigger or aggravate a CH during susceptible periods (cluster cycles), I don't believe anyone has reported success in "curing" their CH's after undergoing the continuous positive air pressure (CPAP) to treat the sleep apnea.

Sux, don't it? I was really hoping there'd be a connection, but as I found out, there isn't.

Oh, well - could be worse. I could have a sharp stick in my eye. Wait a minute, that's what it feels like, so what's the difference? ;D

Bill

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by maria9 on Oct 13^th, 2003, 8:09pm

Hey Bill. could be worse, better than a poke in the stick with a sharp eye.

Sorry, couldn't resist, Maria

Title: All you ever want to know about serotonin
Post by BobG on Oct 13^th, 2003, 11:47pm

Click this from the OUCH site. It's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/serotonin/index.htm

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by hdbngr on Oct 14^th, 2003, 1:58pm

Interesting. I think it is that old chicken and the egg argument of which came first: headaches and difficulty sleeping? or difficulty sleeping causes headaches? Either way, we are one sleep deprived bunch. I know I used to sleep so well it was a joke among my family. Since CH arrived on the scene, that has stopped. I'm scared to go to sleep.

A while back I read about a study done at University of Michigan that investigated this in detail.

The links can be found at:

http://www.headachepainfree.com/clusterha.html

and

http://www.respiratoryreviews.com/sep00/rr_sep00_clusterheadaches.html

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by Bob P on Oct 14^th, 2003, 2:34pm

I've always assumed our poor sleeping was due to our lack of an increase in melatonin at night:
http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/medications/melatonin.htm

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by maria9 on Oct 14^th, 2003, 7:25pm

Hey all,

One of my questions is still why are those vessels in the head so ready to dilate and cause all this unneccessary pain as a result of a fairly innocuous event, say a half a glass of wine, whereas out of cycle I can have as many glasses as I would like?

Maria

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by BobG on Oct 14^th, 2003, 9:11pm

Quote:

One of my questions is still why are those vessels in the head so ready to dilate and cause all this unneccessary pain

That's a question we'd all like an answer to.

Something to do with a faulty hypothalamus gland that you inherited from your ancestors.

It’s sorta like diarrhea, it runs in your genes.

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by maria9 on Oct 14^th, 2003, 9:22pm

Hey Bob G., just provide an answer to my questions and quit taking so many trips to Vegas. OK? I need to get some of my questions resolved before I meet my maker. Maria

Title: Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
Post by BobG on Oct 14^th, 2003, 10:12pm

LOL......Vegas will make a person goofy :o

OK, my answer to your question is

Heck if I know. 8)