Author |
Topic: Non CH poll.... (Read 1675 times) |
|
jonny
Guest
|
Not sure if your locked into my link 5-string but it clearly shows (if you look) CPR being preformed within two mins of this dude being cuffed.
........................................jonny
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
Ree
New Board Hall of Famer
2008's my year to shine~SUN IS OUT!!!YAY
    
Gender: 
Posts: 5236
|
 |
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #26 on: Dec 4th, 2003, 9:39pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
I wish we could see what happened when the guy attacked the cop to the left of the screen... I come from a huge police family and I know how these altercations can go... (have heard stories) Seems to me if a cop died it would have been "OH WELL" people expect that...
I feel sorry for the police in this situation... clearly this man was huge and intimidating... clearly it took 6 of them to hold him down... clearly he was under the influence of some drug... It is too bad they cant sedate someone in a case like that... I think this will be another dragged out "Race vs the Police"... It was a very unfortunate incident all together............ but remember folks............ he started it all, his quality of life was poor, with an enlarged heart and under the influence of drugs as it be. This guy had no respect for his own life and probably had a death wish... After one smack to my body with a billy club......... I'd give up. He didnt deserve to die... and he fought to the finish... just my opinion ree
|
|
IP Logged |
Proud Mom to US ARMY Kiowa OH58 PILOT~CWO2 SCOTT Hawaii, & USMC Vet~Now POLICE OFFICER SEAN, Citizen of the Month~ Breezy~ Nana 4 Matt/Mike&Aya, MIL To Shino Wife to Dave HI BILL!http://www.myspace.com/dungareespocket http://www.prohawaiian.com
|
|
|
don
Guest
|
I'd appreciate the opinions of the wives children and families of the cops whose lives were in peril from an over weight drugged out maniac.
Someones hard working daddy may not have come home that night. Or ever.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Prense
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Kerry is an idiot!
Gender: 
Posts: 1607
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #28 on: Dec 4th, 2003, 10:12pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Dec 4th, 2003, 8:32pm, jonny wrote:"When they all ducked down"?.....since when do you get to decide to duck down when you are in battle with a drugged out 400 pound rhino thats trying to kill you??
|
|
I didn't use the word duck in the literal sense, just meant they were out of view...
The video is blurry as hell on my screen, but I looked at it again, and no..I don't see the head shots I thought I saw the first time.
Yes, they did appear to do at least chest compressions, but it was a bit late getting started.
Don't get me wrong...I think the guy deserved to get his ass kicked in a huge way, but that doesn't make it right.
|
|
IP Logged |
Where does the white go in a snowman when the snow melts?
|
|
|
cootie
New Board Hall of Famer
sumday I'm gonna be sumbody........ ..
Gender:
Posts: 8406
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #29 on: Dec 4th, 2003, 11:00pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Ya swing at a cop ya get swungle'd. Ya fall down and die from it they try and save ya....it's jus a job like any other.....one good turn deserves anuther or one bad action deserves anuther. Pam that wouldn't wanna haveta deal with that shit on a daily bases
|
|
IP Logged |
Cause and Effect......"Cause is the effect concealed, Effect is the cause revealed"
|
|
|
Jimi
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Who loves ya baby!
Gender:
Posts: 2286
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #30 on: Dec 4th, 2003, 11:48pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Sorry Jonny.......just got in.....yes I saw the video. The police officer was physically attacked to start this series of events. The man though huge, did not appear to have a weapon, so deadly physical force could not be used. He went down after getting knocked down put the police could not keep him down. What I saw was the one officer hitting him repeatedly on the back and shoulders. If the guy was lying there not moving or unconcious, he was using too much force and was wrong.
But when you can finally see him, you see that he is fighting and still trying to get up. The blows should have stopped him, but it didn't. Later he was found to have, I think, pcp and other drugs in his system. He would not have stopped until they stopped him. In a 20 year career, it only takes one loss in a fight to end your own life. You are carrying a gun, and the bad guy can take it away from you if he gets you down. I had a wife and 2 children waiting for me and if I got in a fight, I was gonna win. You fight force with force and deadly force with deadly force. Unfortunetely this man died and investigations will start. Every split second decision that you make, when things go bad quickly will be gone over
with a fine tune comb and who knows what will happen to the police. It will be a mess, it always is. Had I been there, and he came at me. I would keep hitting him until the threat was over.
But hey, what do I know?
|
|
IP Logged |
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.
|
|
|
pubgirl
Guest
|
Jimi makes sense
Prense is right that in normal circumstances there are other ways of 'taking a big guy down' but anyone who has dealt with desperate people off their faces on drugs knows that they don't feel pain. Certain mental illnesses have the same effect, you can use the 'normal' methods of restraint and they have no effect whatever, and I include ball crushing in that!
I have seen people ostensibly being 'beaten up' by colleagues in the Police Force, but have stood back and allowed it to happen without intervention because it was apparent that the person was going to do themselves and other people serious damage, even to death, if the officers didn't act very strongly. In all these cases either the person was doped up or seriously mentally ill, or both, and nothing else would have stopped them.
Just my experience, though I don't know this case of course
Wendy
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
TxBasslady
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Bass fishin' is a h00t It's the catchin' that sux
Gender:
Posts: 3201
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #32 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 3:26am » |
Quote Modify
|
Well ...hell................jonny
I was gonna pass on this thread. However, being retired from this "field" of work, I will say.....that not knowing what transpired before this attack took place, really kinda makes it a bit "sticky" to form a definite concensus on what should or should not have been done. Clearly, the perp attacked the Officer. Given the physical size of the perp, and the mental condition (drug induced), I am of the opinion that.......he's damn lucky that a bullet was not introduced to his head. Clearly the end result of the confrontation was death for the perp. Now, it is always unfortunate when anyone loses his/her life, no matter how that comes about.
I have attended funeral services for "fallen brothers" too many times. It is a heart wrenching loss. Not to say that it is only heart wrenching for cops.....anyone who loses a loved one suffers.
However.........I would have taken a bullet myself, before I would have allowed some turd to hurt my partner.
In this situation......I may have done the same thing these cops did. Clearly, this perp wasn't gonna heed the words of anyone. His drug induced state was his power and force. Any "normal" person would have succumbed to the orders of the cops after 1 strike of that stick. Actually....a "normal" person, in my opinion, would not have had to been struck at all. This turd was not "normal". He had the ability (considering his drug induced state) to overtake some of those cops, given the chance. It's their job......to not give him the chance.
I have to agree with Jimi.......he was a threat. His weapon was his size and mental state. One wrong move by just 1 of those cops could have resulted in this turd getting his hands on that cops weapon. They used whatever forcible means they could, to prevent that.
It's an occupation that is very much suceptible to public scrutiny. There's good cops.....and bad cops. I've worked with both. Under the right circumstances, whether good or bad......they can become a statistic.
The investigation will be scrutinized by the public, no matter what the results are. Very possibly, due to that scrutiny, someone's career may be over. This is a tough world......and lots of "induced" substances make it difficult for cops to act and react to situations such as this.
But hey,.......this is just my opinion...and we all know what they say about opinions.
Jean
|
|
IP Logged |
How lucky I am... to have known someone who was so hard to say goodbye too.
Take a kid fishin
www.takemefishin.org
I adopted a Vietnam POW/MIA from El Paso, Texas! 
|
|
|
Jimmy_B
Guest
|
Definitely a scary situation...and the guy brought it upon himself...but looking at the video:
1) Training tells you to use your PR-24 on Bone, to bring a subject down. Preferably the shin, kneecap, or ankle. Hitting a 400lb. guy in the stomach or back doesn't do much to bring him down. Maybe vents some anger, but usually won't bring an intoxicated subject down.
2) This municipality should invest in a Taser or Stun Gun. More then likely...one shot & he'd be down....
So basically...I don't like to Monday Morning Quarter-back, situations like these, but Cops lacked sufficient training & equipment, & with all that said, were not liable for the guy dying. The guy's on Herb, Methanol, & cocaine...plus he's eating White Castle burgers...he was gonna die in a few weeks anyway....
Jim
|
| « Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2003, 7:20am by Jimmy_B » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
BobG
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 5747
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #34 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 7:25am » |
Quote Modify
|
The police should have just tipped the fat guy over. He'd be harmless, he couldn't get up. 
Been down and couldn't get up.
Bob- at 288 lbs and growing- G
|
|
IP Logged |
Stay stressed. Never relax. Never sleep. Ever.
|
|
|
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Happy to be here
 
Gender:
Posts: 14968
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #35 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 7:59am » |
Quote Modify
|
Just spotted this.
First thing that comes to mind is that at least they didn't put a bullet or two in him. In dealing with someone as screwed up as he is supposed to have been and that big, once it gets started, it's not gonna be pretty. There is nothing new here about the amount of force.
Pretty hard for someone like that to be rational enough to know how to behave when dealing with cops. I don't see where the cops killed him. It certainly contributed but from what I see....well a lot of buts.......
Too bad they didn't have some other technique available but they didn't. A mess but I don't see where they had much choice.
Just awful.
Charlie
|
|
IP Logged |
There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
|
|
|
ClusterChuck
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
The BEAST rises again, and again, and again, and .
Gender:
Posts: 3181
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #36 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 8:24am » |
Quote Modify
|
If you watch this, it is quite obvious that a VERY big man, has been knocked down, and keeps getting back up. How scarey can that be?
Excessive force? Not a chance of it! They tried to keep him down, yet he refused! Sorry he died, but it was NOT the officers' fault!
I am sorry to say, that most likely Jean is right: Someone's career will be forfitted. In my mind they were totally justified. NO ONE should loose their job over this!
I WANT my law enforcement officials to do what is needed to keep the public safe. From what I saw, they were doing what was required.
Chuck
|
|
IP Logged |
"No man can be happy without a friend, nor be sure of his friend till he is unhappy."
Thomas Fuller
|
|
|
5-string
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Old Timer
Nothing is accomplished without passion
Gender:
Posts: 416
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #37 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 8:40am » |
Quote Modify
|
One more thought from me please.
If this was turned around and the dude killed an officer, I believe that at least half of the people who think the cops"murdered"him
would defend him saying"He did'nt murder a cop,he was out of his mind. He needs rehab."
Do you think I could run for office with that attitude?
.And Jonny, I did see the cpr guy, I was wondering about the ambulance and oxygen, you know,all that stuff??.
..Mark..
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Linda_Howell
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Hearing is one thing. Listening is another.
Gender:
Posts: 6721
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #38 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 10:52am » |
Quote Modify
|
My opinion:
When you choose the behavior.
You choose the consequences.
LindaH
|
|
IP Logged |
Kindness, is gladdening the hearts of those who are traveling the dark journey with us.
|
|
|
Donna_D.
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
OUCH needs volunteers
Gender:
Posts: 2618
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #39 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 10:55am » |
Quote Modify
|
I had to search the archives for this one. Thanks for the excellent link Jonny..........
This information offers a "bigger picture" on the situation, and also answers a few questions I have seen posted here. Be sure to read the last paragraph.
From the archives at www.wcpo.com12/02/2003
"Police released the White Castle restaurant security tapes Tuesday night. Those tapes may answer some of the many questions surrounding the deadly incident.
The tapes show some unusual behavior by Jones and it may answer the question concerning what happened before police got involved.
People want to know what took place in that one minute and 30 seconds before the officer's cruiser camera was turned on.
At exactly 5:43 a.m. Sunday, Jones arrived at the shop and hugged a female employee he had met a few days earlier.
Jones immediately walks out of the shop and to the back parking lot for seven minutes, where the female worker told police he fell down and she became concerned when his eyes appeared to roll to the back of his head.
That's when medics were called to help but that friend of Jones' was upset and began to hyperventilate.
As medics helped her Jones came back inside White Castle, at first ignoring what was going on behind him and then he started a dance routine.
He then left the store again.
On the tapes Homicide Commander Kim Frey said there is something new, that Jones allegedly screams at the paramedics.
Jones then stood in the parking lot for a few minutes and continued to dance.
Paramedics remained inside and watched and called police, telling them that Jones was a nuisance.
Police were not called to an emergency, so they arrived with their lights off, which also meant the cruiser camera was off.
That is when the officers approached Jones, who appeared to continue dancing and then lunge at the officer which appeared to be when the outburst took place.
Did police provoke Jones? Or was Jones in a drug induced state and attacked the officers?
Many have asked what went on during a minute and 37 second time frame, from when police arrived to when the cruiser camera was turned on.
Police told 9News reporter Shawn Ley Tuesday night, since the officers were not responding to any type of an emergency, their lights and camera were turned off.
When an officer believed Jones was becoming confrontational, that's when an officer turned the camera on.
One more clue revealed Tuesday night was that whatever Jones was saying or however he was acting to those officers, one officer became so concerned that he appeared to go to his trunk for his beanbag or pepperball gun to subdue Jones before the confrontation began."
Donna D
PS. I still want to know where the medics went. Even though this guy was obviously in the wrong, I do not feel that due dilligence was used once he stopped breathing. If it were a child, innocent bystander or a police officer laying on the ground after this altercation, I do not think that CPR or other lifesaving measures would have been abandoned so quickly. I am not in any way defending this man's actions. I just think that being left in the street to die is wrong. I have seen ambulances arrive at the hospital in emergency situations and the medics are exhausted from performing CPR for extended periods of time....and a lot of those patients lived.
Thanks for the food for thought Jonny! It has been a very interesting journey!
Donna D.
|
|
IP Logged |
 The information contained above is for the expressed use of fellow clusterheads and their supporters. Any misuse of this information by any of my "Ex's" is considered to be creepy and a form of harassment and will be duly noted by the ch.com webmaster 
|
|
|
TxBasslady
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Bass fishin' is a h00t It's the catchin' that sux
Gender:
Posts: 3201
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #40 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 12:50pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Yep Mark......you are probably right. Had this turd killed one of these cops, and had he made it thru the "system", more than likely an insanity plea would be the case.
I am sure the 1st unit on the scene was not running "hot". But you can bet that the back-up units were running "hot", with lights, sirens, and cameras. A cop doesn't tell a turd......"hold on ....let me go turn on my camera". Those tapes came from a responding unit, and since an assault on an officer had taken place, you can bet that it was radioed as an "officer assist".
Alot of factors will determine the end result of this situation.
Jean....
P.S. I am of the opinion....that addressing this situation, is like getting involved in conversations about religion or politics..........and I try to avoid those. An argumentative person, I am not. So.........I promise this is my last input on this thread. An interesting thread,.......jonny.
|
|
IP Logged |
How lucky I am... to have known someone who was so hard to say goodbye too.
Take a kid fishin
www.takemefishin.org
I adopted a Vietnam POW/MIA from El Paso, Texas!
|
|
|
fubar
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 1933
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #41 on: Dec 5th, 2003, 12:54pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I think one of the upsetting things for a lot of people is watching the 'beating' take place. When officers are faced with, well..., death, they kick it into a higher gear not unlike soldiers in battle. No doubt, there may have been a couple extra blows delivered, but I'm pretty damn sure I'd be doing the exact same thing in that situation...
CALM... <<WHACK!>> THE <<WHACK!>> F%$K <<WHACK!>> DOWN!!! <<WHACK!>>
Again, I don't think it's fair to say that the medical people screwed up... they didn't have a clue what was making this guy crazy and I'm positive the officers would have prevented, at least for a minute or two, the medical personal from attending to him because of the chance of him starting up again and then being blamed for injury to one of the EMTs. Everything was pretty much textbook, in my opinion.
|
|
IP Logged |
"He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
|
|
|
12gagueblast
New Board Junior
BLAM BLAM!!!!!!!
Posts: 97
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #42 on: Dec 6th, 2003, 1:56am » |
Quote Modify
|
Echo 300 lb man needs more than one pair of handcuffs? sure ok if he stood there they could have put 8 or 10 pairs on him, 3 pair or 6 pair could have been put on if he would have let them nicely. how would anyone feel if cops didnt stop this guy and the drugged up waco hurt or killed one of your family members. who the hell cares what color this guy was. i forget who said they saw no life threatining instance he but a bug HUH???? to you. this guy could easily have taken an officers gun from them and injured police or civilians. for all the cops knew this guy could have had a gun or a knife himself. what the hell, we know he didnt know but those cops didnt then and they have families. thats why i could never be a cop my self preservation instinct is way too strong. i would have shot him many many many times. and i wouldnt have felt bad about it because at the end of the day i would have gone home to my family. what would you do if you were in a similar situation as a civilian? let the guy beat the crap out of you and possibly kill you. the police are there to do what they did get this guy off the streets. that being said i wish this guy didnt die, and feel bad that he did. but he caused his own death by taking drugs and fighting with the cops. i feel bad for his family and wish this never happened but would feel worse if this guy hurt or killed someone i loved. do you think the cops feel good about this?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Prense
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Kerry is an idiot!
Gender:
Posts: 1607
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #43 on: Dec 6th, 2003, 10:45am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Dec 6th, 2003, 1:56am, 12gagueblast wrote:| i would have shot him many many many times. and i wouldnt have felt bad about it because at the end of the day i would have gone home to my family. |
|
You would probably end up in jail yourself...
Don't think for a moment that one has to be extremely large or on drugs to be violent...
|
|
IP Logged |
Where does the white go in a snowman when the snow melts?
|
|
|
12gagueblast
New Board Junior
BLAM BLAM!!!!!!!
Posts: 97
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #44 on: Dec 6th, 2003, 11:23am » |
Quote Modify
|
prense you are exactly right i would go to jail. that is why i said i could never be a cop and i know that. i wouldnt be proud of the fact that i would shoot someone in that kind of instance,but i wouldnt feel bad either. i would still be alive. i am not a huge fan of the police but they have a very hard job that i could never do because i would be to inclined to protect myself, that is why i said just before i would shoot him that i couldnt be a cop. are police perfect no who was wrong here the guy fighting them i think that is very obvious. the nuts that stick up for this guy are just that nuts.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
jimmers
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
Hello GOD! The gene pool needs some chlorine!
Gender:
Posts: 2092
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #45 on: Dec 6th, 2003, 7:25pm » |
Quote Modify
|
jonny,
Ditto to what you said, word for word.
Nuff said.
Seeya,
Jimbo
|
|
IP Logged |
I don't suffer from INSANITY; I'm enjoying every minute of it!
|
|
|
Patrick_A
New Board Hall of Famer
If i could get my hands on that wascally Wabbit
Gender:
Posts: 843
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #46 on: Dec 7th, 2003, 8:18am » |
Quote Modify
|
Guy shot a cop in my hometown this year. They found him in the woods with a gunshot wound to the head. He had committed suicide. Yea right! He had committed suicide when he shot the cop!
Excessive force is common among cops. Mf'ers will handcuff ya then beat the shit outta ya. They always blame it on PCP, why the fuck is that? Cops have a tough job, But killing someone is never a good excuse for anything!
Patrick
|
|
IP Logged |
Do you think that when they asked George Washington for his ID, that he just whipped out a One Dollar Bill?
|
|
|
Woobie
CH.com Alumnus
New Board Hall of Famer
I luv you guys!!!!!!!!
Gender:
Posts: 3800
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #47 on: Dec 7th, 2003, 8:58am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Dec 4th, 2003, 8:30pm, forgetfulnot wrote:High, drunk or 400 lbs doesn't make a difference, if a cop tells you to do somthing you better do it. You might end up dead if you don't. 
Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
Lee
|
|
LOL Lee........
I heard he was high on embalming fluid....
HOW does one get high on embalming fluid? Do you drink it.. ? Smoke it?? .... inject it?? snort it? WOW.
WOW!
tina
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
jonny
Guest
|
on Dec 7th, 2003, 8:58am, Woobie wrote:| HOW does one get high on embalming fluid? Do you drink it.. ? Smoke it?? .... inject it?? snort it? WOW. |
|
You dip joints in it, let them dry and smoke them....turns you into superman when it comes to feeling pain.
Patrick, did you see the video?...if so how would you have handled that situation?
.......................jonny
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
brain_cramps
New Board Hall of Famer
Gender:
Posts: 2103
|
|
Re: Non CH poll....
« Reply #49 on: Dec 7th, 2003, 10:24am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Dec 6th, 2003, 1:56am, 12gagueblast wrote:| ...i forget who said they saw no life threatining instance he but a bug HUH???? to you... |
|
WTF?
Hey Kim!!! I need a translator over here!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Member Map
Login
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print
Remove
test rss