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        New Message Board Archives >> 2003 Posts >> Caffeine:   chronic vs episodic
        
(Message started by: brain_cramps on Dec 29^th, 2003, 1:39pm)

Title: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by brain_cramps on Dec 29^th, 2003, 1:39pm

Quote:

Cluster headache and lifestyle: remarks on a population of 374 male patients.
Manzoni GC
Headache Centre, University of Parma, Italy.
To investigate the relation between cluster headache (CH) and lifestyle, some lifestyle factors were considered in a population of 374 CH male patients consecutively referred to the same headache center, including 306 with episodic CH, 22 with chronic CH unremitting from onset, 20 with chronic CH evolved from episodic, and 26 with CH periodicity undetermined CH patients had jobs involving greater responsibilities and were more frequently self-employed than controls. In addition, their past medical histories often reported head injury, either with loss of consciousness (13.4%) or without loss of consciousness (23.5% of cases). As regards nonessential consumption habits, both cigarette-smoking and coffee and alcohol intake were more frequently reported in CH patients than in the general population, with a higher prevalence in chronic CH as opposed to episodic CH sufferers. In particular, smokers accounted for 78.9% of episodic CH patients and 87.8% of chronic CH patients--12.9% of episodic CH patients and 19.6% of chronic CH patients smoked over 30 cigarettes a day. Alcohol abuse was reported in 16.2% of episodic and 26.8% of chronic CH patients, while coffee abuse was reported in 6.9% of episodic and in 36.6% of chronic CH patients. Rather than pointing to a single lifestyle factor directly implicated in CH onset, my review suggests a common trend among CH patients to overindulge in certain living habits.

I noticed the above quote in another thread ("Clusters a symptom ? " ) and found the numbers kinda interesting.

<A> = Trait
<B> = percentage of Episodics with that trait
<C> = percentage of Chronics with that trait
<D> = increase in Chronics over Episodics

Anything jump out? (not just because its in bold ;) )

<A>	<B>	<C>	<D>
Trait	Episodic	Chronic	Increase
Smokers	78.9	87.8	11.28%
Heavy Smokers	12.9	19.6	51.94%
Alcohol	16.2	26.8	65.43%
Caffeine	6.9	36.6	430.43%

The percentage of chronics that drink A LOT of coffee is 5 times as high as the number in episodics.

Since I NEVER want to go chronic, I think I might quit drinking coffee after this pot.

grant

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by CJohnson on Dec 29^th, 2003, 1:49pm

There are a couple of other numbers that jump out...

Here is something:
"Brain levels of 5-HT and 5-HIAA but not tryptophan decreased in 5 day caffeine injected rats injected with saline on the 6th day. Plasma total and free tryptophan were not altered in these rats. Caffeine-induced increases of brain tryptophan but not 5-HT and 5-HIAA were greater in 5 day caffeine than 5 day saline injected rats. The findings are discussed as repeated caffeine administration producing adaptive changes in the serotonergic neurons to decrease the conversion of tryptophan to 5-HT"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7475912&dopt=Abstract

Any activity which compromises the serotonergic system could be trouble for a person who already has a predisposition for clusters.

PFDANs
-Curtis

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by ave on Dec 29^th, 2003, 5:36pm

I think I could do with a translation into people-~~squeak~~ speak... please.

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Charlie on Dec 29^th, 2003, 5:37pm

Quote:

coffee abuse

I love this term 8)

I've drunk gallons of coffee every day since I was in my teens way back during the Wars of Succession. I drink the same now as when my CH disappeared in 1991. When they began in 1969 I drank coffee, and was a heavy smoker. I quit smoking 11 years before my 12 year remission. I give up trying to find a connection.

Ineresting post though. Every little bit you know....

Charlie

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by don on Dec 29^th, 2003, 5:52pm

Quote:

Manzoni GC

Another speaker at the Cluster Club in Rome.

Spoke with him briefly over at the dessert and coffee table during the break. Only briefly though, I was headed out for a smoke.

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Roxy on Dec 29^th, 2003, 8:38pm

Like Charlie says....every little bit you know....

I don't do much caffeine, just two cups of coffee in the morning. For some reason, don't think that cutting out my coffee will change anything.

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Donna_D. on Dec 29^th, 2003, 8:46pm

Keep an open mind folks.

The statistics are rather frightening...have to remember, no one really knows what causes these damn headaches yet!

We have to keep searching.

Thanks Grant!

Donna D.

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Linda_Howell on Dec 29^th, 2003, 9:31pm

Heading out the door for Starbucks for some espresso.

LindaH

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by FrankW on Dec 29^th, 2003, 9:35pm

Smoking, drinking, coffee and CH - which is cause and which is effect?

Frank

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by 5-string on Dec 29^th, 2003, 10:44pm

Thanks Grant, cool post.
Just to play devils advocate though(if you don't mind)....
I think most of us agree that suffering from cluster headaches has introduced,to some degree, a level of stress and anxiety into our lives that would not be there otherwise. If we had it before,then I believe clusters have up'ed the anti. Chronics more so than eposodics.
Now with that theory, It would be interesting to get the results from surveying 374 men who suffer from something else that would cause stress/anxiety. I would bet that a large percentage of those men might drink too much coffee,smoke alot, find themselves drunk more often than they would care to admit........
..just a thought....
..Mark..

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by ClusterChuck on Dec 29^th, 2003, 11:23pm

on 12/29/03 at 20:38:34, Roxy wrote:

I don't do much caffeine, just two cups of coffee

My doctor told me to cut down to one or two cups a day .. So naturally I follow his instructions .. I am usually only one cup a day now .. BUT, he did not say that I could not refill that cup .. So I refil my ONE CUP about 10 to 20 times a day... But it is still just one cup!

Chuck

EDIT: BTW, I am chronic ...

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Unsolved on Dec 29^th, 2003, 11:47pm

I laid off the caffiene for an extended period...quit smoking...ate better food...tried to maintain a 'schedule'... BUT, none of that had any effect on my headaches. They still hit me multiple times everyday.

Unsolved

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Charlie on Dec 30^th, 2003, 1:13am

Frank W......

A Swede. We have another one here? Welcome to the fold. :)

You haven't had Christmas until you've had Glogg. Born over here but a Swede on both sides of my oddball family. :o

Charlie

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by BlueMeanie on Dec 30^th, 2003, 2:07am

I usually drink about 2 cups of coffee a day when not in cycle.

Once a cycle starts, I double, if not triple, the caffeine intake. It is the only med that eases the pain after a CH attack. The doc also prescribes me Norgesic Forte which includes caffeine.

PS. I've went through cycles with NO COFFEE and it didn't make any difference. Last cycle only lasted 7 weeks and drank tons of the stuff. No correlation here for me. The only depression is having clusters.

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by ozzman on Dec 30^th, 2003, 8:49am

For completion sake, I will post Curtis' quote from Pubmed, but this time, the whole abstract, for some reason a few key words were dropped from his post, like depression from caffeine withdrawal..... ;;D

24h withdrawal following repeated administration of caffeine attenuates brain serotonin but not tryptophan in rat brain: implications for caffeine-induced depression.

Haleem DJ, Yasmeen A, Haleem MA, Zafar A.

Department of Biochemistry, University of Karachi, Pakistan.

Caffeine injected at doses of 20, 40 and 80 mg/kg increased brain levels of tryptophan, 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid (5-HIAA) in rat brain. In view of a possible role of 5-HT in caffeine-induced depression the effects of repeated administration of high doses of caffeine on brain 5-HT metabolism are investigated in rats. Caffeine was injected at doses of 80 mg/kg daily for five days. Control animals were injected with saline daily for five days. On the 6th day caffeine (80 mg/kg) injected to 5 day saline injected rats increased brain levels of tryptophan, 5-HT and 5-HIAA. Plasma total tryptophan levels were not affected and free tryptophan increased. Brain levels of 5-HT and 5-HIAA but not tryptophan decreased in 5 day caffeine injected rats injected with saline on the 6th day. Plasma total and free tryptophan were not altered in these rats. Caffeine-induced increases of brain tryptophan but not 5-HT and 5-HIAA were greater in 5 day caffeine than 5 day saline injected rats. The findings are discussed as repeated caffeine administration producing adaptive changes in the serotonergic neurons to decrease the conversion of tryptophan to 5-HT and this may precipitate depression particularly in conditions of caffeine withdrawal.

PMID: 7475912 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by thomas on Dec 30^th, 2003, 10:04am

mmmmmmmmm...... coffee and cigarettes....mmmmm

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Brian_Y on Dec 30^th, 2003, 10:29am

Percentage of well dressed, devastatingly handsome, lazy n'ere do wells who believe in statistics:

0%

Lattes are on me, fellas!!!

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by FrankW on Dec 30^th, 2003, 10:31am

Hi Charlie

Just a Kiwi living in Sweden for a long time - no Glogg this year though - a trigger that is. Just lots of Swedish grade coffee - stuff that sets your heart rate to a steady hum till you get used to it.

Frank

BTW Thomas - the only ingredients anybody remembers for the magic salad I once mentioned were Chrysanthemum leaves and maybe wild mushrooms - I know no more.

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by BruceD on Dec 30^th, 2003, 11:03am

Caffeine certainly doesn't seem to have any bearing on my CH (except high intake seems to lessen individual HAs). I've gone for long periods 3-4 years without any caffeine and CHs still hit. Same thing goes when I get back on the caffeine train. The only thing that I've found is that by slamming 24+ oz of Mtn Dew at the slightest hint of a shadow I can sometimes lesson the impending pain. I really don't know if it's the caffeine, or the WWW type of thing, but that's my only experience with caffeine having any effect on my CH. (BTW, I'm episodic)

Take care
BruceD

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by jflynn on Dec 30^th, 2003, 11:25am

Coffee helped to abort my headaches back when i had them before I was on melatonin. I have a wonderful Italian superautomatic espresso machine at home: press a button and a half minute later an espresso comes out. :)

http://www.gaggia-usa.com/images/products/compact.jpg

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by brain_cramps on Dec 30^th, 2003, 12:41pm

If you reread my post, you'll notice that i didn't say i thought caffeine was the reason; only that the statistics were interesting.

and that i MIGHT quit ----- ya think a pot is too much before lunch? :o

BTW - 374 MALE patients --- everybody knows that females don't get CH! [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Rick_K on Dec 30^th, 2003, 12:57pm

on 12/30/03 at 10:04:48, thomas wrote:

mmmmmmmmm...... coffee and cigarettes....mmmmm

I agree !!!

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Jayne on Dec 30^th, 2003, 7:33pm

Yeah I don't get CH's I'm just hanging out here hoping to get a date. :D

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by Cerberus on Dec 30^th, 2003, 7:49pm

I must be an exception to the norm.....Episodic and drink 2 million cups a day, so many in fact that I piss cement, and it STILL hurts less than CH.

Ramon

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by jonny on Dec 30^th, 2003, 7:55pm

on 12/30/03 at 19:33:20, Jayne wrote:

Yeah I don't get CH's I'm just hanging out here hoping to get a date. :D

Nice to meet you jayne, I can be there in two hours ;;D

...................................jonny

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by don on Dec 30^th, 2003, 8:17pm

Quote:

ya think a pot is too much before lunch?

Before luch? I got that in me before I reach work !

Geeeze.....I dont know if I should visit jflynn for the coffee machine or visit Jayne for the........................UH.......DATE........................................Yeah, thats it, Date!

Title: Re: Caffeine: chronic vs episodic
Post by jonny on Dec 30^th, 2003, 8:22pm

on 12/30/03 at 20:17:49, don wrote:

Before luch? I got that in me before I reach work !

What do you wear....a plug in your ass?.......LMMFYBO ;;D

.....................................jonny