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Ghost
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Debunk this
« on: Dec 14th, 2006, 12:35pm » |
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It is called the Manchester Document. 92 page guide book. A little gift for those that think we are safe. Please read Carefully. Yes this is real. AlQuida(sp) hand book/training Manual. this should show they are not only serious but patient.
http://www.ismcolorado.com/Data/Manchester.pdf
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Mike
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floridian
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What's to debunk. No doubt that Al Qaeda is a violent group that needs to be dealt with.
So what is a good strategy? Invade Afghanistan to scatter but not capture them? Invade an Arab country that wasn't an Al Qaeda supporter, which fuels anti-American sentiment and helps Al Qaeda recruit more people?
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Maffumatt
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Kill them where you can find them, Afghanistan, Iraq, New York City, thats the only language they understand.
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vig
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #3 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 4:26pm » |
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so why did we not finish the job in Afghanistan?
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Maffumatt
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We haven't finished because the jobs not done. Won't be for a long long time. We could have gone into there like we did in Iraq but we would also have the same higher casualties, there was already an armed opposition there that was up to the task with our aid so we used them. The people in that part of the world do not view life as we do, and they see this fight lasting for generations, it would be foolish if we did not. Americans always want the quick fix, there is not one for this war.
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Maffumatt
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LOL your quick.
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floridian
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Just lucky (and scattered) - reread your post, realized I completely misunderstood, then zapped mine. My bad, I'm sorry.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2006, 5:09pm by floridian » |
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BobG
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #7 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 5:27pm » |
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Pull out all foreign troops and let the friggin’ middle east destroy itself. Those freaks love killing each other. It’s been going on since the beginning of time and they aren’t going to stop killing until they are all dead.
And nuke Saudi Arabia. The Saudi family are the biggest terrorists anywhere.
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deltadarlin
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #8 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 5:34pm » |
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on Dec 14th, 2006, 4:36pm, Maffumatt wrote:| Won't be for a long long time. .....The people in that part of the world do not view life as we do, and they see this fight lasting for generations, it would be foolish if we did not. Americans always want the quick fix, there is not one for this war. |
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And it would be foolish on our part to stay engaged in a war that we cannot win. We do not have the manpower to be involved in a long, drawn out, sustained ground war, which is exactly what this is. I don't know the solution, wish to hell I did, but we can't continue this war being fought the way it is. Hell, even Bill O'Riley (and he is a conservative pundit, don't care what he says) thinks that we need to find a way to get out of Iraq now. The Iraqi's have had 3.5 years to get people trained, where are they?
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Jonny
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #9 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 5:54pm » |
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on Dec 14th, 2006, 5:34pm, deltadarlin wrote:| And it would be foolish on our part to stay engaged in a war that we cannot win. |
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Oh!, we can win alright.....its just that the top dont have the balls to fight like we did in WW2
Im 110% behind the troops, but if the top does not have the balls to fight to win.....bring our guys home!
But be ready for whats to come after we do that.
Theres no easy answer, especially for this moron
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floridian
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We could win, if we had things like 'military objectives' and 'targets' - truth is, major combat operations were over years ago when Bush declared them to be over. The Iraqi military had been defeated. Now we are peacekeeping, but not very well. Now we are nation-building, but our Iraqi hosts prefer to lob bombs and snipe at each other and us. We will never lose - we can keep not winning forever.
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Maffumatt
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on Dec 14th, 2006, 5:34pm, deltadarlin wrote:
And it would be foolish on our part to stay engaged in a war that we cannot win. We do not have the manpower to be involved in a long, drawn out, sustained ground war, which is exactly what this is. I don't know the solution, wish to hell I did, but we can't continue this war being fought the way it is. Hell, even Bill O'Riley (and he is a conservative pundit, don't care what he says) thinks that we need to find a way to get out of Iraq now. The Iraqi's have had 3.5 years to get people trained, where are they? |
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We won the Iraq war.........but the only type of peace those people know is domination. We are not that type of occupier. My politically incorrect stance is to pull out to defensible position in the desert and let them do their thing. They are far better at killing each other than we are, ruthless and efferent. That is the type of enemy and mentality we face in that part of the world, and its not just that part of the world any longer. Appeasement and isolationism does not work with this type of enemy. You can't force people to like each other like Saddam did, brutality is ok as long as its not the US doing it. Jonny is right, war has become so sanitized that the people have no fear of it, they know that if a few Americans die the Americans political will dies too.
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Maffumatt
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on Dec 14th, 2006, 6:06pm, floridian wrote:| We could win, if we had things like 'military objectives' and 'targets' - truth is, major combat operations were over years ago when Bush declared them to be over. The Iraqi military had been defeated. Now we are peacekeeping, but not very well. Now we are nation-building, but our Iraqi hosts prefer to lob bombs and snipe at each other and us. We will never lose - we can keep not winning forever. |
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I agree with you here Flo. Every word.
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Jonny
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #13 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 6:23pm » |
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on Dec 14th, 2006, 6:20pm, Maffumatt wrote:
I agree with you here Flo. Every word. |
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Ditto....how about that! 
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JeffB
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #14 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 6:33pm » |
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I also agree with the man from Florida. 
I guess Sen. Nelson took it upon himself to go to Syria, looking forward to hear what the outcome will be. I sure he's gonna get crap here in the U.S.
Not from me tho!
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Redd
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #15 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 6:44pm » |
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It finnaly Happened...Hell froze over....Flo, Jonny and Matt agreed on something.
Holiday miracles DO happen.... 
Just kidding you know I love you guys.
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Charlie
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #16 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 9:08pm » |
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You have to be able to listen to history. Churchill called Iraq an "unforgiving volcano." That works for me.
I have to agree with most of what was said when hell froze over too.
Iraq is not overwhelmed by foreign terrorists, It is overwhelmed by Iraqis fighting Iraqis and with Americans caught in the middle. The war opened it up. When people around the world look at Iraq, they don't see freedom. They see chaos and sectarian hatred. If you give people the vote, the majority will usually win. Oops! So now those on the top are the lovers of death and the poisonous aspects of religion
These people backpedalled away from the modern world when the last of their several empires fell. That's what fundamentalism is. It's not a political position, it's a fate. So now we're stuck with what someone called Islamism rather than Islam.
Afghanistan is a PITA for everyone that ever went through the place and not until oil isn't so lucrative for this part of the world, will they pay any attention to us. There isn't a good reason to be there now. I do kinda agree that pulling back a bit to safeguard our own interests might be worth a try. Fewer of us dead that way.
I think we are doing just fine on this thread. Nice going kids.
Charlie
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| « Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2006, 9:15pm by Charlie » |
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Redd
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #17 on: Dec 14th, 2006, 9:14pm » |
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Charlie too?
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burnt-toast
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #18 on: Dec 15th, 2006, 8:05am » |
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For whatever this opinion is worth.
This scenario has been repeating itself since the Crusades. Check your history books, every self- proclaimed global power attempting to change the Middle East has met the same resource consuming resistance and eventually limped away financially ruined.
Most recently, Russia's Afganistan war helped break the bank of Russia and bring the wall down. Yet it was impossible to convince most people that weak army's weren't going to be the problem. Historic tribal/religious fighting combined with Islamic extremism fueling violence from surrounding nations would drag this war out indefinately.
Despite all of our resources, in the name of corporate profits, a global economy and global democracy we've become a debtor nation with unimaginable trade deficits. Mounting debt from this war, absurd trade policies, unbridled government expansion and rampant political greed/corruption have severely cracked our economic foundation. While we permit government to grow and spend money as if there is no bottom to our pockets - our debt grows too large to repay.
If drastic changes don't come soon, "Terrorists" will get exactly what they want without having to conduct another attack. The collapse of economic opportunity on which the U.S. was established.
Hate to say it, but I fear the actions of global corporations, greedy representatives and the apathy of the American people more than the threat of "terrorists". The threat of imploding is far greater than any outside threat.
Tom
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vig
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #19 on: Dec 15th, 2006, 9:07am » |
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the Mormons call this "bleeding the beast".
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BarbaraD
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #20 on: Dec 15th, 2006, 10:54am » |
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The bad part is we're not doing anything HERE to protect US. And more Iraquians are getting killed now than when Suddam was in power.
I think we'd be better off to bring our troops home and let them protect the US borders and immigration services. By now we should be able to pin point every foreign person here on a visa and know when it expires. But we've done nothing to insure people go home when their visa runs out. Instead we're "inviting" more to come in.
The Distinguised Gentleman from Florida put his finger on the pulse of the whole thing..... Who can argue....
Hugs BD
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tanner
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #21 on: Dec 15th, 2006, 11:51am » |
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on Dec 14th, 2006, 5:27pm, BobG wrote:Pull out all foreign troops and let the friggin’ middle east destroy itself. Those freaks love killing each other. It’s been going on since the beginning of time and they aren’t going to stop killing until they are all dead.
And nuke Saudi Arabia. The Saudi family are the biggest terrorists anywhere. |
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This is quickly becoming my favorite solution, except for the nuke part. I think we just need to make sure Israel has all the hardware and toys they want and they will happily take care of that part for us.
.....Tim
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Charlie
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #22 on: Dec 15th, 2006, 5:52pm » |
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The English used to station troops around the edges of some of their colonies in their far flung empire... In fact they did it after WWI right there when they lost too many troops in Baghdad. It's an artificial construct anyway that they helped create. They had the right idea.
Charlie
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Callico
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #23 on: Dec 16th, 2006, 4:13am » |
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on Dec 14th, 2006, 6:06pm, floridian wrote:| We could win, if we had things like 'military objectives' and 'targets' - truth is, major combat operations were over years ago when Bush declared them to be over. The Iraqi military had been defeated. Now we are peacekeeping, but not very well. Now we are nation-building, but our Iraqi hosts prefer to lob bombs and snipe at each other and us. We will never lose - we can keep not winning forever. |
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With all due respect Flo, and I do respect your view although I disagree heartily, according to friends of mine on the ground in Iraq, and retired Marine Corp officers who work closely with the Corp tell me that over 95% of those involved in the fighting within Iraq are not Iraqi. Predominately they are Iranian and Syrian with other Arab nations represented as well. The funding for most of the activities in Iraq comes from Iran, although Saudi Arabia gets a lot of credit for it. (A lot of the funding for terroristic activity outside Iraq does come from Saudi sources.)
The support of the Iraqi people for our troops on the ground has been overwhelming. A recent poll taken within Iraq, both in Sunni and Shia areas showed over 68% of the population wanted the US to stay there until they could become established as a self-governing nation. The breakdown between the Sunnis and the Shia was within 1 percentage point in the poll. The poll was taken by a British polling company.
BTW, it took twelve years for the US to adopt our Constitution after we won the war of independence. It took us four years after WW2 to get Germany re-established, and seven years for Japan, and we are still in both countries 61 years later. We have only been in Iraq for three and a half.
I know this topic is very controversial, and I know I will not convince everyone that we should stay. All I would ask is that this issue be looked at from BOTH sides evenly, and that each person check out the information on which he makes a decision carefully before coming to a conclusion. I know I have had to change my opinion on a number of these issues after I found the basis for my prior opinions to have been faulty.
Jerry
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BarbaraD
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Re: Debunk this
« Reply #24 on: Dec 16th, 2006, 5:38am » |
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What I don't understand is how our LEADERS think they can take an Arab country in the middle of numerous Arab countries and make it a democracy while the others remain Dictatorships. Iraq was the most westerized country in the Arab Kingdom - Suddam was a dictator, but he kept the country in line. Now that we've gotten into it, it's mass chaos.
Comparing this war to WW11 is apples to oranges.
During WW11 the PEOPLE of this country UNDERSTOOD why we were there and what had to be done. We were a patriotic nation united. People did without staples so our troops would be taken care of.
I keep hearing people say, "Well we haven't had any more attacks since 9-11." My question is -- how many years had it been since we were attacked BEFORE 9-11. We KNOW who set up 9-11, but he's still running around Afghanastan while we're overthrowing a dictator in another country. And for all the good we did "democracising" Afghanastan - they're right back to their OLD ways (killing teachers because girls were allowed in the classroom).
And there are reasons we're still in Germany and Japan. So we can watch Russia and N Korea should they decide to act up again.
I'm sorry -- I support our troops 100%, but think they should be brought home. I just don't think we have any business in the middle east at all. But our leaders have dug a big hole and now can't get out of it.
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