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        New Message Board Archives >> 2006 General Board Posts >> They're just here to work
        
(Message started by: notseinfeld on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:03pm)
Title: They're just here to work
Post by notseinfeld on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:03pm
Peel the arms of your favorite lib from the tree and see what the response is to this:

(Most checked for veracity with snopes)


From the L.A. Times


1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County are working for cash and not paying taxes.  This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English.
3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)


Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops,
but 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth
(and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York )
results from immigration.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was,
(after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION/ year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University ].  The lifetime
fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average
adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:15pm
Sorry, its another 'whip up the hysteria' hoax.  Try checking with the L.A. Times, the alleged source of this material.

http://opinion.latimes.com/immigration/2006/05/according_to_th.html
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Jonny on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:24pm
Gee, Flo........you always say my links are bull-shit cause they dont say what you think.........looks like this is the same, Bro ;;D
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by vig on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:29pm
it's a shame because we really need to have this debate in the open now and we really need accurate facts.

It seems BOTH sides are being deceptive and we're ALL going to lose if we don't straighten it out soon.

just start with the first one...
even if there ARE 15% of Los Angelesians working for cash, it's not good; they get public services and they're NOT paying taxes and the rest of us ARE and we're covering THEIR share.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Jonny on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:35pm
Ill agree, Vig.....its a start
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:39pm

on 12/27/06 at 22:24:11, Jonny wrote:
Gee, Flo........you always say my links are bull-shit cause they dont say what you think.........looks like this is the same, Bro ;;D


Oh, so the fact that the claims in NotSeinfeld's post are fabricated and falsely attributed aren't the issue - you think the issue is me being mean and unfair?  

Its a chump chain letter.  The claims don't stand up to scrutiny. If you want a real dialogue on an issue, maybe try starting from a position of honesty?


Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Jonny on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:42pm

on 12/27/06 at 22:39:29, floridian wrote:
maybe try starting from a position of honesty?  


Ok....hows this?


on 12/27/06 at 22:29:41, vig wrote:
just start with the first one...
even if there ARE 15% of Los Angelesians working for cash, it's not good; they get public services and they're NOT paying taxes and the rest of us ARE and we're covering THEIR share.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:55pm
As I have stated before on several occasions, I recognize that there are problems related to illegal immigration.  But blowing things out of proportion and using that as a scapegoat doesnt help anyone. The only way to solve this problem is on the demand side - as long as Americans continue to fund illegal jobs, there will be a bountiful supply of people sneaking in from somewhere to take those jobs.  


Quote:
On March 30, (2004) Congress was told that 78 percent of known tax cheats in investment partnerships are not even asked to pay because there are not enough tax collectors to go after them. Congress and the Bush administration rejected the request by the IRS Oversight Board, a citizen panel Congress created, for extra money to pursue some of these tax cheats and stop about 1 percent of the $311 billion in estimated annual tax cheating.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/04/11/INGV560VO41.DTL&type=printable


Lets not pretend all this stuff about the nation and the common good.  The oil companies get billions in subsidies on top of their record billions of profit.  The truly wealthy pay less in taxes while the middle class is squeezed, and the poor are blamed.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by tanner on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:58pm
Just to lighten the mood....

This morning, from a cave somewhere in Pakistan, Taliban Minister of Migration, Mohammed Omar, warned the United States that if military action against Iraq continues, Taliban authorities will cut off America's supply of convenience store managers. And if this action does not yield sufficient results, cab drivers will be next, followed by Dell and AOL customer service representatives and Motel 6 managers.

It's getting ugly.

 Did you see the Tom Brokaw special from the Vail/Aspen area?
If you came to the hill country of NC, VA, West VA, TN, etc and advertised that you would be willing to relocate young labor to Colorado, pay them $14.00 an hour to start with the possibility of being trained to operate heavy equipment at a higher rate of pay. Told them there was as much work as they wanted, I don't think the contractor in that segment would have any problem filling his jobs with hard working legal Americans!
It's BS and a scam to make the rich richer at the expense of the legal population that intend to Stay in America and have a permanent positive impact on economy!
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Ob1kanobee on Dec 28th, 2006, 2:09am
I like the idea of the flat tax. Everyone would have to pay taxes then (unless you make less than the minium). Everyone including illegals, drug dealers or basically anyone that consumes and buys tangible items.

Corporations would finally have to pay their share. The IRS as we know it would not be the same at all. Last I read, the tax code book was several thousand pages. If you call the IRS with certain questions, they don't even know the answer.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by dennisoc on Dec 28th, 2006, 4:26am
Predjudice and ignorance have always used  the "facts" to fuel their fears....thus convincing themselves that they are neither predjudice nor ignorant.

wage peace
den
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 28th, 2006, 7:30am

on 12/28/06 at 02:09:01, Ob1kanobee wrote:
I like the idea of the flat tax. Everyone would have to pay taxes then (unless you make less than the minium). Everyone including illegals, drug dealers or basically anyone that consumes and buys tangible items.



I agree.  But everyone should pay the same amount, not the same rate.  When you go to a supermarket to buy food, that gallon of milk costs the same for everyone.  Why should government services be any different? Divide the amount the government spends by the number of people in the country, and send out the bills.  

Next year's budget is $2770 billion, divided by 300 million people, = $9233.  So a family of four gets a bill for $36,933, maybe round it up to $40,000 to help pay down the debt. That is as simple and fair as it gets.  Everyone pays their share. None of this 'sliding rate' nonsense.  Why should the rich have to pay more? Why should corporations pay any taxes - all they do is pass the cost on to the consumer.  Lets be simple, and fair.


Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Kevin_M on Dec 28th, 2006, 7:39am
I know Barb has mentioned tax evasion and crime have another huge source with not enough press about it read and our own Carl Levin in Washington has been investigating.

How offshore tax havens work:

The General Accounting Office report, commissioned by Senators Carl Levin (D-MI) and Byron Dorgan (D-ND) and released April 5, gave a clue to how. It's called "transfer pricing," or improperly shifting income to lower-tax countries.

Firms set up offshore "subsidiaries" which, on their books, perform functions that let them cut onshore taxes. They may sell their own "logo" to the subsidiary and then pay a high price to "rent" it back, deducting "rent" as expense. They may move money to the subsidiary and "borrow" it back, deducting interest payments. If several of their subsidiaries are involved in a deal, the firms may grossly inflate profits assigned to those in offshore tax havens, which levy no or minimal taxes on "profits" claimed there.

The U.S. firm may "trade" with an offshore "shell" it owns -- a phony company set up in a tax haven -- pretending it's buying goods or services at a high price or selling its product low, to create deductions. Because the tax haven keeps owners' names secret, the IRS won't know the company is "trading" with itself.



His website and a few words he has to say:

http://www.senate.gov/~levin/newsroom/release.cfm?id=211288

For years now, offshore tax havens have damaged U.S. interests by facilitating crime, money laundering and tax evasion. An estimated $70 billion in U.S. tax revenue is lost each year due to assets hidden offshore - a figure so huge that if even half that amount were collected it would pay for a Medicare prescription drug program without raising anyone's taxes or cutting anyone's budget. Besides robbing U.S. taxpayers of this revenue, uncooperative offshore tax havens are an ongoing affront to honest taxpayers. U.S. citizens have one of the highest rates of voluntary payment of tax in the world today, because they are willing to pay their fair share to keep this country great and enjoy the benefits of a strong defense, safe food, clean water, good roads, and the other advantages this country offers. Tax evasion is a crime in this country. It is a serious crime because it undermines overall confidence in the tax system and it deals a terrible blow to the basic fairness that makes democracy work.



Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by burnt-toast on Dec 28th, 2006, 10:42am
Population estimates have soared to between 15 and 20 million illegal aliens in the country.  Since these numbers are estimated, the cost to federal, state and local governments, business and individuals are impossible to calculate.  Every service provided, crime committed, unpaid tax, unpaid bill, etc. of an illegal alien is made up for by taxpayers and consumers.  American taxpayers and consumers have become doormats in the rush to increase corporate profits through cheap labor and wholesale sell-out of our economy.        

Illegal aliens do not contribute more than they cost law abiding, taxpaying citizens and consumers.  The millions of illegal aliens in prison and illegally collecting welfare consume billions in taxpayer resources.  Conservative estimates are that two-thirds of illegal aliens work in an underground economy with no deductions for taxes or obligation to pay outstanding bills.  The remaining third have somehow managed to illegally obtain fraudulent documentation that makes it impossible to track their contribution or cost.  The fact is taxpaying citizens and consumers must fund education, healthcare, municipal services, housing, unpaid bills, crime, translation costs, etc., etc., etc., for illegal aliens moving freely around the country while forcing taxpaying citizens to reduce their standard of living to compete for jobs.            

Before you believe the prevalent pack of lies perpetuated by the illegal alien lobby that supports government-sanctioned criminal activity, ask yourself what they have to gain.  Our nation is $8.7 trillion in debt with a trade deficit nearing $1 Trillion.  Our government borrows $2 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat.  American taxpayers cannot afford heavy non-contributing immigration numbers when our economy is being bled to death by massive debt and diminishing job opportunities for taxpaying citizens, yet it continues unchecked.  

As long as American citizens don’t speak up…  You can count on corporations incorporating offshore to avoid paying U.S. taxes, devouring cheap labor and funding government sanctioned trade imbalances.  You can count on wealthy senators and congressmen accepting legalized bribes from corporate entities and foreign interests who keep our government in their back pockets.  You can count on increasing tax burdens and a declining standard of living in the name of corporate profits and a global economy.  After all this is the land of free milk and honey that the rest of the world should feast from freely.      

If you’re as sick of this nation-destroying as I am, demand that our leaders establish control over our borders and interior so that we have immigrants and visitors legally present in the country who pay all taxes and bills required of American citizens.  Demand that “Free Trade” be replaced by “Fair Trade” before our economy is brought into line with third world economies that benefit only a wealthy few.  These objectives are of vital importance to our national security and the future of the majority of American citizens.

Tom    
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 28th, 2006, 11:05am
Do ya think Bush will pull a Reagan and grant sweeping amnesty?  That would:

1) Greatly decrease the number of illegals, who would then be legal.
2) Pull many of those new legals into the above-ground economy.
3) Win minority votes for the Republicans, and
4) Improve political contributions from the cheap-labor capitalists.

The only consolation of being a lame-duck President is that you don't have to worry about what people think!
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Ob1kanobee on Dec 28th, 2006, 11:13am
Floridian, the way i understood it is the more you spent, the more tax you would pay. You would have zero taxes taken out of your paycheck. No state, federal ect. taxes of any kind. So if a person that makes enough money to say buy a $35,000 bass boat would pay this flat tax on that boat. A person who could not afford to buy a boat like that (say a school teacher on a school teacher's salary) there is no way she can pay the same as a rich person.

In the U.S., the middle class will soon be no more, that is a fact, no if an buts about it. You will either have a lot or have a little. The gap is increasing between the two all the time.

With the flat tax, it has been shown that the cost of goods would actualy come down. Every time things are made, they are taxed and taxed and taxed again, untill the consumer buys it, in which they are taxed again. With ertain components of the flat tax for instance, we inherintly for example pay thet in the price to buy a car. That inherant tax would be eliminated under the flat tax, so the price of the car would be less. The tax would be on the sales price.

So if you buy a $50,000 car or a $15,000 you pay the same rate. Bottom line, it is a much better sysytem than we have now, and it has been proven (on paper) that this method would pay down the debt. I might add that it doesn't help our debt as a country to be in Iraq either and every other damm place being peacekeepers all the frickn time, let alone al these soldiers getting injured and dying.

The U.S. thinks it can just come in and change the way certain people of foreign lands way of thinking that they have had for hundreds of years. You can't do it, you can't win that war. These people are as right as right in their mind as we are in ours.

Some of you might think this is nuts, but I personally put my trust in God and not in man and the weapons of war. The earth and mankind were created for time indefinate, and God is not going to allow it to be destroyed. Putting your faith in man is like the blind leading the blind, sooner or later they will both fall into the pit. I'm getting off topic here, so I will refrain.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by tanner on Dec 28th, 2006, 11:29am

on 12/28/06 at 07:30:34, floridian wrote:
I agree.  But everyone should pay the same amount, not the same rate.  When you go to a supermarket to buy food, that gallon of milk costs the same for everyone.  Why should government services be any different? Divide the amount the government spends by the number of people in the country, and send out the bills.  

Next year's budget is $2770 billion, divided by 300 million people, = $9233.  So a family of four gets a bill for $36,933, maybe round it up to $40,000 to help pay down the debt. That is as simple and fair as it gets.  Everyone pays their share. None of this 'sliding rate' nonsense.  Why should the rich have to pay more? Why should corporations pay any taxes - all they do is pass the cost on to the consumer.  Lets be simple, and fair.


 ROTFLMAO...........I'm movin to Flo's house..errr Estate

....Tim
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 28th, 2006, 11:34am
All of the flat tax proposals I have seen make a distinction between earned income and investment income, and earned income is hit with a higher tax.  This hits the working person harder, and shifts more of the burden to them.

A large portion of the population lives paycheck to paycheck, and they spend all of their income. So they would end up paying on all of what they make.  Those who are already well off can put more of their money into investments under the flat-tax proposals, and increase their share of the pie even more.  
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by JeffB on Dec 28th, 2006, 11:35am
Honey, have you seen my check book. I gotta pay my $40,000.00 tax bill again. [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Ob1kanobee on Dec 28th, 2006, 11:57am
Who knows, probably. Do you think one day some of the people in this country are gonna get so fed up with those kind of shananigans, there is gonna be a Civil War, a coup or uprising of some sort? It has happened before and all the signs are there for it to happen again. Just "hang around the water cooler at work" (so to speak) and it is as plain as day to me.

I know though Polititions and big business will do whatever to fatten their wallets. So if it is good for them and the Lobbyist want it bad enough they get it. Our government is just as corrupt as any other, we just do it legally.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by BobG on Dec 28th, 2006, 2:06pm
Thanks notseinfeld for 10 (out of about a trillion) good reasons not to live in California.

The flat tax could work well if the politicians would allow it. A federal sales tax on everything except necessary things like food. You control the amount of taxes you pay. If you don't want to pay high taxes don't buy the Lexus, buy the Chevy. Don't buy a shirt at Macy's, go to K-Mart. Seems simple to me.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by JeffB on Dec 28th, 2006, 2:10pm
Is that fence up yet?? ;;D
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by vietvet2tours on Dec 28th, 2006, 5:25pm
Conscript them.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Ob1kanobee on Dec 28th, 2006, 6:29pm
The reason they can't pass a flat tax bill or a health care bill or any kind of bill that would atleast accomplish something significant is because THEY WOULD HAVE TO READ THE DARN THING! Most ALL the bills that get passed don't ever even get read by the majority.

I don't know where this $40,000 tax bill (I don't care if it is $10,000) is just dandy with you Floridian? How is a school teacher, fireman, police officer, janitor, wallmart cashier, ect. gona pay that? You would have to make at least $120,000 a year to pay a $40,000 tax return! My best friend made around $260,000 last year (on the books) and he made me write out the $51,000 check to the IRS because he thought he was gonna have a heart attack.

under our current tax system I would love to have a $40,000 tax bill, I would of made some good money!
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Dec 28th, 2006, 7:56pm

on 12/28/06 at 07:30:34, floridian wrote:
I agree.  But everyone should pay the same amount, not the same rate.  When you go to a supermarket to buy food, that gallon of milk costs the same for everyone.  Why should government services be any different? Divide the amount the government spends by the number of people in the country, and send out the bills.  

Next year's budget is $2770 billion, divided by 300 million people, = $9233.  So a family of four gets a bill for $36,933, maybe round it up to $40,000 to help pay down the debt. That is as simple and fair as it gets.  Everyone pays their share. None of this 'sliding rate' nonsense.  Why should the rich have to pay more? Why should corporations pay any taxes - all they do is pass the cost on to the consumer.  Lets be simple, and fair.


Flo, that would not be a progressive tax, and it would hit the middle class hard while letting the rich pay even less in taxes.  Also, your post does not account for any corporate income tax.

Its funny how the right wing thinks that low revenue and high expenses is a good fiscal model.  You can see the selfishness shine through.  They want to live large, and just pass the credit card bill to their kids, which, btw, doubles every 7 years at 7% interest.  

Rather than raise taxes by 1 trillion now, they would rather raise taxes by 4 trillion in 14 years from now.  This is what is known as neo-conservative fiscal policy.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by B14CK5H33P on Dec 28th, 2006, 8:06pm
Wow! I wouldn't have posted to this thread, however:

If EVERYONE pays their 'fair share' - and that is 40'000 a year....

Um, I don't think there are many people in my town who MAKE $40'000 a year! Can you say 'homeless population explosion and several prisons crowding up with people who are so in debt to 'uncle sam' that they wind up serving time after being on the streets for a few years and racking up a huge bill to the government.

Just my two cents worth.
Carl D
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 28th, 2006, 8:31pm
So then you agree that we need a tax system that isn't flat?  Some people should pay more than others? The 60 pound kid should carry a lighter pack than the 220 pound economic linebackers?  

Government spending is outa control. Wealth is becoming more concentrated. In spite of a decade long burst in productivity, most American workers are making about what they did ten years ago in terms of purchasing power.  And Wall Street brokers are taking home million dollar bonuses while the stock market (and 401ks) are at the same level they were 6 years ago.

Buckminster Fuller was right - Its a GRUNCH of Giants.

Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Charlie on Dec 28th, 2006, 11:12pm
Things like the flat tax and other PITA stuff make me look at those who support such things. Mostly people without financial woes love it. Flo is right about the investment versus earned income inequity.

The most prosperous time in our history was when there was largely a "punishing" graduated tax and a lot of people got around it anyway. It's all we talked about. I have nothing against making a lot money so long as people have a little social conscience.

My favorite inequity is the sweet tax breaks given to new buyers of Humvees and the like. There was something like a $30,000 cutoff before you had to pay sales taxes for luxury cars.  Lovely.

Nice going.

Charlie



Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Ob1kanobee on Dec 29th, 2006, 1:41am
I don't understand why you don't see the flat tax. Maybe you are looking at an older version of it. I will try to find what version I am referring to.

But with it, everyone pays taxes, including illegals. There are zero taxes taken out of your paycheck, ZERO. You are taxed on what you buy. The price of goods would come down because of the high cost of payroll tax accounting procedures as well as setting up fancy ways businesses and large corporations (and tax savvy small ones too) get around paying taxes.

When the price to do business falls, so does the price of goods, because it falls for all. Inherintly this would produce more profit percentage and increased competition in price for consumer goods.

The government would actually start recieving the money they are supposed to get and there would (theoretically) be less red tape on their end. 70% of the IRS would be abolished, gee that might save some $$$  Some accountants and tax attourneys would probably need to find other work though. If you had any stock in H & R Block, you better get rid of it.

If you want the national debt paid down, all you would have to do is legalize marajuana. Tax it and stop paying for the use and sale of it in the form of expensive government programs. It is a joke. It was just on the news the other day, that the only crop bigger than pot is corn. What does the government make on it, squat. How much does it cost the taxpayers, tons.

A recent study (I'm sure their are several) show that marajuana is much safer than alcohol (and smokes). When was the last time the police had to go to a domestic emergency call because someone smoked some pot? Maybe when someone stole some pot or sold some pot.

I don't smoke it, but I'm not blind as to how much money is being lost here (in fighting it and selling it legally), and it is proven safe (safer than alcohol and smokes). All the former tax people could open up those pot smoking bars like over there in Amsterdam.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Dec 29th, 2006, 3:27am

on 12/29/06 at 01:41:09, Ob1kanobee wrote:
The price of goods would come down because of the high cost of payroll tax accounting procedures as well as setting up fancy ways businesses and large corporations (and tax savvy small ones too) get around paying taxes.

When the price to do business falls, so does the price of goods, because it falls for all.



I disagree.  When Nike started making shoes in Indonesia for 90% less cost, the price of new sneakers did not fall.  The net profit of Nike grew.

When Coke started making coke overseas, the price of coke didnt fall, their profit went up.

The point is, when costs go down, the price of goods doesnt normally seem to follow.  When costs go down, profits go up.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by TxBasslady on Dec 29th, 2006, 3:49am
[smiley=hiya.gif]    nots.....

I haven't seen you since Dallas, sweetie.   How ya doin?

Good to see ya, again     :-*

Jean
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by floridian on Dec 29th, 2006, 9:13am

on 12/29/06 at 01:41:09, Ob1kanobee wrote:
I don't understand why you don't see the flat tax. Maybe you are looking at an older version of it. I will try to find what version I am referring to.

But with it, everyone pays taxes, including illegals. There are zero taxes taken out of your paycheck, ZERO. You are taxed on what you buy. The price of goods would come down because of the high cost of payroll tax accounting procedures as well as setting up fancy ways businesses and large corporations (and tax savvy small ones too) get around paying taxes.

When the price to do business falls, so does the price of goods, because it falls for all. Inherintly this would produce more profit percentage and increased competition in price for consumer goods.

The government would actually start recieving the money they are supposed to get and there would (theoretically) be less red tape on their end. 70% of the IRS would be abolished, gee that might save some $$$  Some accountants and tax attourneys would probably need to find other work though. If you had any stock in H & R Block, you better get rid of it.



What about the law of unintended consequences? Shifting to a sales tax would not necessarily make everything simpler.

It would mean that aliens would pay more taxes - good in the case of some aliens, bad for other aliens and other citizens. If the sales tax on common items went up to 20% or 25%, that would have a major effect on tourism, and would mean that fewer Brazillian tourists would make the sacred pilgrimage to Orlando to worship the mouse. Which means education costs here would go up.  International tourism currently brings in around $1.4 trillion to the US economy, and is responsible for ~6.5 million jobs. I guess if prices in the US go up too much, we could offset that by simply devaluing the dollar??

What gets exempted and what not?  Food and medicine, but where do we draw the line - different states have different laws on this already (food exempt, but not fast food or 'candy').  'Medicine' is exempt, but does that mean that the price on prescription pharmaceuticals stays the same while vitamins and exercise equipment go up 25%?  Seems like it will get counterproductive and complicated soon.  

Is a wheelchair exempt?  Most people would say sure. What about adaptive technology the handicapped need?  Speech recognition technology that some need to function, which other people use as a productivity tool?  All of the sudden, the complicated rules that we eliminated from the bad old system to determine how much tax a handicapped person pays, need to be replicated in the new system. Agencies to develop lists of what is exempt, and who qualifies for what.

And what about the farmer?  The farmer is the only producer that buys retail and sells wholesale.  They currently pay no sales tax and get to deduct the cost of their tractors, seed, fertilizer and fuel.  When prices drop or crops fail, they don't pay income taxes because they don't have much income.  But with a flat tax based on a sales tax, they would pay 25% on these costly investments - at the beginning of the season, long before the harvest!!  Ok, so we'll set another government agency to deal with this, develop and enforce new rules, etc.  And for each of the other unusual sectors of the economy.    

Many of the simpler taxes are VATs - Value Added Taxes.  Because charging a 25% sales tax on the full sale price of something makes no sense as an item moves from factory to wholesaler to retailer -  it would add far more than 25% as the rate would be cumulative.  So instead, there is a VAT.

These are only simpler for the consumer, but not for producers.  Producers no longer get exemptions on sales tax for things bought to resell. Instead, they pay sales tax on the item when they buy it, and then charge sales tax on the increase in value of the items when they sell.  So the theatre pays tax on popcorn, salt, fake butter, and the bag, then they calculate the price differences, and add tax to the increased price of each component.  Simple? Yes if you have a large chain of theatres and a staff of full time programmers and accountants.  Not so simple for the little guy that just started a restaurant and tries to incorporate the cost of new chairs and kitchen improvements into the price of a plate of spaghetti.

We don't have to change the rate structure to simplify the tax code - exemptions could be eliminated and rules streamlined.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by purpleydog on Dec 29th, 2006, 10:04am

on 12/28/06 at 10:42:39, burnt-toast wrote:
Our nation is $8.7 trillion in debt with a trade deficit nearing $1 Trillion.  Our government borrows $2 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat.
Tom    

And how much has the US loaned to other countries, and is waiting to be paid back? And how many loans has the US forgiven?
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Charlie on Dec 29th, 2006, 12:15pm

Quote:
Our nation is $8.7 trillion in debt with a trade deficit nearing $1 Trillion.  Our government borrows $2 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat.  
Tom      

And how much has the US loaned to other countries, and is waiting to be paid back? And how many loans has the US forgiven?

Certainly nothing remotely close to this is owed to the world and mostly the Communist countries that hold out mortages

Charlie
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by BobG on Dec 29th, 2006, 1:35pm

Quote:
If the sales tax on common items went up to 20% or 25%,


The tax would never go to 25 or 30%. Politicians would have pay to that much too. A federal sales of about 4 to 6% would bring in more money than is now collected under the current system.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Ob1kanobee on Dec 29th, 2006, 2:01pm
First off, Nike is a brand name that has a high following. People buy Nike, because they want Nike. They have no competition. Nike could charge whatever they want within reason and get it. Their profits also went through the ceiling when they signed Tiger Woods. People buy Nike for Nike.

Under the Flat Tax the price of goods would come down and the consumer would have to play a part in that as well. Look at Doc Martins (it is a shoe), they used to be made in England (maybe they still are, but in the states they come from China). I personally stopped buying them, because the quality now sucks compared to what it used to be. Now if some consumers still want to buy them, then they are idiots.

The price of a mercedes probably woudn't come down either. But again, this is a company with a following.

However, most items that would compete with one another, would lower their final value. Look at Wallmart for example. It costs them less to do business than most other retailers and it is reflected in their price of goods. Shop Wallmart then another big chain and compare the prices of items. By your theory, Wallmart should just charge the same as everyone else and pocket the difference, increasing their profit margin.

If you are using Nike as an example, there is some sustance to your argument. But like I said, these are goods that have a certain following of people, and they can charge pretty much what they want within reason.

The flat tax by the way, would not be anywhere near 25% to 30%. You lost your mind. That is the problem. Everyone that is against the flat tax keeps thinking of these high percentages. Where are you getting this info. from? Someone has poisoned your mind. That is the most outragious thing I have heard! GEEEEZZZZ
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by JeffB on Dec 29th, 2006, 2:03pm
Is that wall up yet?

The tax system is just as broken as ouor immigration.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by burnt-toast on Dec 29th, 2006, 2:28pm
Bear with me, my post is long and covers two pages.  Many may disagree but here goes.

I’m all for a flat tax, but before we go there, controls on government growth and spending are desperately needed.  These elements alone are suppressing economic freedom, growth, personal savings and the ability of average individuals to participate in a free society.

In the late 30’s and early 40’s, 12% of our national income was consumed by non-producing government operations.  This left 88% of the U.S. economy a free market in the hands of a private sector that produced and consumed goods of economic value.  The U.S. economy flourished and a large middle class developed under this free economic system.

In comparison 44% of today’s U.S. economy is directly dependent on federal, state and local government spending.  In 1940, 4 million Americans worked for the government and 11 million worked in manufacturing, versus 21.5 million government employees and 14.5 million manufacturing workers today.  This shift from producers of wealth to consumers of wealth is transforming the U.S. into an unstable socialistic society.    

The U.S. government was established with limited powers not as a be-all/do-all entity.  Unless something changes bankruptcy and economic collapse is a certainty. Government at all levels now costs a family of 4 an estimated $50,000 or double the amount of 1960.  Steadily increasing taxpayer debt at unsustainable levels is a recipe for economic and social disaster.  
       
Unchecked deficit spending has created economic distortions in our economy that concentrates wealth/power within an elite, monopolistic and bureaucratic class with the most access to government.  It dangerously inflates economic strength by ignoring the growing burden of debt imposed on the general population.  Through the 1930’s into the early 40’s the national debt was essentially zero.  It grew/remained around $0.5 Trillion through the late 70’s then skyrocketed - $1 Trillion by 1982, $2 Trillion by 1988, 3 Trillion by 1992, 4 Trillion by 1996, $5.5 Trillion by 2000, $6.7 Trillion by 2003 and nearly $8.7 Trillion today.

Where is the bulk of our money going and what is increasing taxpayer debt supporting?  Nearly 60% of current government spending is transfer payments - the government collects tax revenue from one source and redistributes it directly to others.  The alphabet-soup of a thousand or so federal regulatory agencies, boards, commissions and committees created to intrude into virtually every aspect of our lives.  The nearly 2,000 federal subsidy programs that increased 44 percent since 1990 alone and growing bureaucracy that administers them.  These are handouts, nothing more than government shifting wealth from taxpaying masses to private, public and foreign entities of the government’s choosing.
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by burnt-toast on Dec 29th, 2006, 2:29pm
Meanwhile average taxpayers are burdened by a double dose of un-checked government growth and spending.  

Despite federal government growth/spending increases, the feds significantly cut subsidies to state/local government.   States embarked on massive new spending in the 80s and 90s before Federal revenues dried up but now struggle to float this new excess by issuing bonds, inventing new taxes and raising taxes to avoid much needed cuts.  At the state and local level, government takes money directly from citizens through taxes and if money comes up short issues bonds that disguise deficit spending by increasing long-term taxpayer debt, receives federal subsidies, raises taxes or cuts spending, there are no other choices.   State/local governments are fleecing taxpayers at every turn.  The number of state and local government employees increased 474% percent since 1946, versus a 212% growth in the U.S. population.  Average earnings of state and local government employees are 31% higher than private-sector employees, not counting the richer benefits of government employees that include $1.4 trillion in taxpayer funded retirement and medical plans alone.
 
We live under what Paul Gottfried calls the managerial state - a seemingly permanent bureaucratic government subject to little control by the people it is supposed to represent and be accountable to.  Your financial stability is not the concern of a government that established the central bank and the large/monopolistic economic system it spawns.  The institution of the central bank provides government with unlimited power to freely print all the money it needs to support its excessiveness, without regard to the financial liabilities being imposed on the future of the population.
 
In today’s system of government, there are few mechanisms in place that operate as an effective check on public looting.  The framers of the constitution didn't imagine and openly opposed centralized power generated by institutions such as the central bank, income taxes and a permanent bureaucratic class.  Nor did they imagine the explosive growth of the public/corporate welfare and the warfare state that these institutions underwrite and entrench in our economy at taxpayer expense.
   
One check on power does remain, public opinion and united public outrage.  In light of the impending bankruptcy of the federal government at our expense, where is the outrage? At some point, when it becomes clear that the present level of government extravagance cannot continue, and we face the consequences as a society, “The People” are going to be desperate for answers.

Ideally, the system must be fixed before a crisis that results in a complete social and financial meltdown. Given what we know about government today however, this crisis will not be proactively stopped and will instead lead to social upheavals of a kind and degree that cannot be imagined in this country.  There are ways to avoid this crisis, but change can only begin with massive and united public outcry for an end to the recklessness that an all intrusive/controlling government bureaucracy is feeding on.

Tom   
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Ob1kanobee on Dec 29th, 2006, 4:09pm
At some point, when it becomes clear that the present level of government extravagance cannot continue, and we face the consequences as a society, “The People” are going to be desperate for answers.

Ideally, the system must be fixed before a crisis that results in a complete social and financial meltdown. Given what we know about government today however, this crisis will not be proactively stopped and will instead lead to social upheavals of a kind and degree that cannot be imagined in this country.  There are ways to avoid this crisis, but change can only begin with massive and united public outcry for an end to the recklessness that an all intrusive/controlling government bureaucracy is feeding on.  

I'm glad someone else recognizes this. Unfortunately, there will one day be an economic collapse. It is inevitable. Doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad thing. Sometimes things happen for a reason which appear to be terrible, but then it puts things back in check and we start over. This is the way it has always been.

Everything is either positive or negative depending on how you look at it, although it is usually easier said than done. I guess the truth just hurts sometimes.

Speaking of bankruptcy, I had to laugh because of all the new rules and guidelines that were passed with the new laws pertaing to it. This was ofcourse all pushed by the lobbyist (for the banks) pretty hard. Now they are whining and crying because they are not making as much money as people are borrowing less (this was all on the news and in the paper). For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction!
Title: Re: They're just here to work
Post by Charlie on Dec 29th, 2006, 8:58pm

Quote:
Speaking of bankruptcy, I had to laugh because of all the new rules and guidelines that were passed with the new laws pertaing to it.


Nice K Street lobbyists did this. The new rules were basically written in my credit card companies.

Charlie


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