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   Author  Topic: Cluster lump on back of neck  (Read 1985 times)
Annette
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #50 on: Nov 13th, 2007, 6:20am »
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Bump for Adam
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #51 on: Nov 13th, 2007, 8:49am »
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  Thank you Anette! Some very interesting reading and lots of great information here!
   Although I'm not "planning" on ever getting another cluster headache... I will keep this in mind, and search for any lump I may have, should it happen.
   I see that before the "bump", the last post was in May of this year. Any interesting findings since then?
 
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #52 on: Nov 13th, 2007, 11:59am »
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sorry adam...somehhow this thread went from two responses plus mine...to three pages...?????
 
I didn't know...
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #53 on: Nov 13th, 2007, 5:28pm »
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Dont worry SW, this is an old thread, I just bumped it up.
 
Adam
 
There hasnt been any new finding about the ganglion. I have been looking still but no new study on them.  
 
What is your thought ?
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #54 on: Nov 15th, 2007, 4:55pm »
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I have a lump but it's permanent.  If I draw a line from the bottom of my ear lobe around to the back of my neck, there's a lump.  I've had it for around 20 years, about the same amount of time I've had clusters.  I've always wondered what the heck is was there for.  Interestingly, this is the exact spot that I experience pain when I don't have my daily coffee on time.
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #55 on: Nov 15th, 2007, 11:00pm »
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thanks for bumping the bump about the bump
 
 
 
i hadnt noticed one but ill check it out
 
ive finaly got a neuro that is willing to learn with me  
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #56 on: Nov 16th, 2007, 12:05am »
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  Ya know... This has been running through my head a lot. This is such an interesting thread.
   It would seem logical, that numbing this lump somehow would in turn numb the pain of the CH. But somebody wrote about having Lidocaine shots, and it not helping. Hmmm.... Doesn't Lidocaine pretty much "stay" where it's administered? It's pretty local, isn't it? I mean... would injecting it into this lump, actually stand a chance of numbing all the nerves in this nerve cluster, ir would it just numb around the injection site?
   Are there other numbing agents out there that tend to "travel" through the nerve or nerve cluster, thereby effecting all the nerves attatched to that bundle? Could such an agent be used more effectively?
   I know, I know... More questions than answers. It just got me to thinking, is all. I guess I don't know enough about anesthetic meds to answer any of those questions on my own.
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #57 on: Nov 16th, 2007, 4:21pm »
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Your question is spot on Adam, there are other agents that can be used to inject into ganglions to block the whole nerve root. They do use it to try to treat CH. The most common one they inject is the sphenopalatial ganglion.
 
The injection mentioned here was lidocaine and it was given by a GP, who really was just testing by trials and errors, he didnt really know how it would work. Normally you need to see an aneasthetist at a pain clinic to have these types of nerve block properly done.
 
It works for some, not for many for some unknown reasons. The main pain one feels appears to come from the trigeminal nerve more than the parasympathetic nerves. Furthermore these injections wear off fairly quickly, the longest they last is may be 6 weeks, if that. If you have a long cycle or if you are chronic, then it wont work very well. Injections into these ganglions are not a pleasant thing to have and you cant have them repeatedly every few weeks or so.  
 
However, people do have the same thoughts as you and trials are being conducted in this area.
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #58 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 1:45pm »
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Yes I have a lump on the back of my neck at the base of my skull about the same size except it's always there and during an attack I dare not touch it or it's a 10 on the KIP scale really fast. Ice nor heat works for me scalp far to tender to touch.  
     I did ask the Dr. about this lump he just passed it off as a lympnode.
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #59 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 2:47pm »
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Thanks for bumping this thread back up.  I read this way back when, and didn't pay much attention because I was out of cycle at the time.  My cycle is trying to start again, and I'm fighting it with my seeds, with success so far.  However....
 
Just reading this thread again - last Friday we drove 6 hours down to my daughter's house, and the right side of the back of my head, neck and shoulder started hurting (I'm a rightie).  While at my daughter's, she, my other daughter and I went to a spa, and I had a deep tissue body massage (OH..... Grin).  Anyway, my "stiff neck" disappeared.  Thought, OK, just from the drive, no big deal.
 
But now it's back, as are at least two, what I would call, mini shadows - not hits, per day, plus at least one at night.
 
  I just now sat here and ran my fingers up and down my neck on both sides, from shoulders to base of skull.  The right side, about two inches right of the spinal cord, and about mid ear height, has a very small spot that is larger than the left????  I wouldn't call is a "lump", more of a "pimple", but there is a definite difference.  And, it's a little sensitive (not really painful, just a little sore) when I touch it.  
 
I intend to try to keep monitoring this "pimple" of mine to see  1) if I AM going in to cycle, will it enlarge, become more painful, etc., and 2) if I can abort this cycle, will the "pimple" disappear.
 
Again, I'm glad this got bumped up.  Thanks.  
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #60 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 3:23pm »
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I mash the shit out of mine while rubbing my temple very vigorously with the other hand.  Sometimes it seems to help.  Undecided
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #61 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 4:20pm »
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on Dec 5th, 2007, 1:45pm, christophercheek wrote:

.  
     I did ask the Dr. about this lump he just passed it off as a lympnode.
                   Chris

 
 
Chris, I think its your doctor who doesnt know about CH ganglions. Next time you see him ask him about sympathetic nervous system activation during a CH hit and sphenopalatial injections to treat CH and see if he knows anything about it.
 
Before I learnt about CH, I would have thought any lump around the neck to be a lymph node too. Now I know differently. Lymph nodes dont get enlarged, hot and tender unless you have an infection nearby, like a bad sore throat or ear infection or something, or worse yet cancer.  
 
So if your doctor thought it was a lymph node and its thats big and tender and he doesnt check it out for you with blood tests and ultrasound then I would be very wary of him.  
 
 
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #62 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 4:22pm »
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on Dec 5th, 2007, 3:23pm, thomas wrote:
I mash the shit out of mine while rubbing my temple very vigorously with the other hand.  Sometimes it seems to help.  Undecided

 
 
Thomas, have you tried putting ice or heat on it ? It may help more than just smashing it .
 
Just a thought.  
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #63 on: Dec 5th, 2007, 5:10pm »
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on Dec 5th, 2007, 4:22pm, Annette wrote:

 
 
Thomas, have you tried putting ice or heat on it ? It may help more than just smashing it .
 
Just a thought.  
 

Yeah, hot shower water helps a lot.
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #64 on: Dec 6th, 2007, 4:01pm »
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Great to hear that it helps Thomas.
 
I read up a bit more about it and its definitely a nerve ganglion firing up when the sympathetic nervous system is activated. They are mainly sensory nerves so they cause pain. Sensory nerves can be tricked by other senses such as sense of touch ( thats why pressure on hit like massaging helps ), sense of temperature ( hot or cold ). Overloading the senses of these nerve ganglions will see them "forgetting" the pain sensation and carry new senses to the brain instead. Obviously, touch or temperature senses are much easier for the brain to cope with than pain.
 
Keep tricking them folks with whatever your are more comfortable with. It does help and it makes scientific sense.  Smiley
 
Painfree wishes to you all.
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #65 on: Dec 7th, 2007, 7:49am »
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About three hours ago I was in the throes of a hit, sitting in my chair with my head in my hands (trying to squeeze it like it was a giant zit), and my wife came up behind me and said "What's that lump on the back of your neck ?".  I'll try ice next time - if there IS a next time....
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #66 on: Dec 7th, 2007, 3:20pm »
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Hi Mike
 
Welcome to the " lumpy club "  Tongue  Grin
 
If ice doesnt work, try something hot like a heat pack or hot shower.
 
It seems some people like the cold, some prefer heat.
 
I hope it will help, but I hope even more that there wont be a next time  Smiley
 
Painfree wishes to you.
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #67 on: Dec 7th, 2007, 10:52pm »
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on Dec 5th, 2007, 3:23pm, thomas wrote:
I mash the shit out of mine while rubbing my temple very vigorously with the other hand.  Sometimes it seems to help.  Undecided
I used to do this too but then I found out that the lump was my twin Grin
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #68 on: Dec 7th, 2007, 11:08pm »
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on Dec 7th, 2007, 10:52pm, E-Double wrote:

I used to do this too but then I found out that the lump was my twin Grin

Andrea Martin, right?
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #69 on: Dec 9th, 2007, 3:36pm »
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There's no ganglion under the angle of the jaw, in the hollow created between the sterno-cleido mastoid (neck muscle, makes the divet at the sternum-collarbone articulation) and the jaw is there? I get a lump there that I rub when I get hit, it isn't painful but it swells up, I've always thought it was a lymph node and had no idea why it would swell when hit.
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #70 on: Dec 9th, 2007, 6:34pm »
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Autonomic Nervous System
 
The autonomic nervous system (ANS) is considered to be an efferent system that controls smooth and cardiac muscle contraction, exocrine secretion, endocrine secretion, and metabolism. ANS helps to maintain a proper internal environment by coordinating the visceral activities of the body. The homeostatic mechanisms provided by ANS occur below the level of consciousness and therefore are involuntary. This contrasts with the somatic nervous system that controls the skeletal muscle of the body and is voluntary. ANS is organized into three divisions: sympathetic, parasympathetic, and enteric nervous systems. For sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, each effector cell of an organ is influenced by a sequence of two neurons. A preganglionic neuron whose cell body arises from the central nervous system and forms a synapse with a postganglionic neuron at a location outside of the spinal cord.
 
Sympathetic:
 
Cell bodies of preganglionic neuron of this division are located in the intermediolateral horn of the spinal cord. The axons of the myelinated preganglionic sympathetic neurons leave the spinal cord via the ventral roots of the spinal cord at the level of T1-L2 (thoracolumbar). The preganglionic neurons then make synapses with postganglionic neurons in the paravertebral sympathetic chain ganglia (the upper chain ganglia merge into superior, middle and inferior cervical ganglia) or in the prevertebral collateral ganglia (celiac, superior and inferior mesenteric ganglia). The nonmyelinated axons of the postganglionic neurons travel from these chain and collateral ganglia to the tissues that they innervate (see figures).
 
Parasympathetic:
 
Like the sympathetic nervous system, each effector cell is influenced by two neurons in series. The cell bodies of preganglionic neurons of this division are located in the cranial portion of the brainstem and in the sacral segments of the spinal cord (craniosacral). Unlike the sympathetic system, the preganglionic neuron is long and terminates close to the effector organ, making synapses with the postganglionic neuron that is present close to or within the organ. The cranial part of this system is supplied by the four cranial nerves (cranial nerve #3=oculomotor, 7=facial, 9=glossopharyngeal, and 10=vagus). These nerves innervate the head, thoracic viscera, and most of the abdominal viscera. The neurons from the sacral (S2-S4) part of the parasympathetic nervous system innervate the lower abdominal and pelvic viscera.
 
Cranial nerves:
 
Olfactory (I)  
Optic (II)  
Oculomotor (III)  
Trochlear (IV)  
Trigeminal (V)  
Abducent (VI)  
Facial (VII)  
Vestibulocochlear (VIII)  
Glossopharyngeal (IX)  
Vagus (X)  
Accessory (XI)  
Hypoglossal (XII)  
 
Some ANS functions are served by:
 
- Oculomotor nerve (pupillary constriction and accommodation)  
- Facial nerve (lacrimation and salivation)  
- Glossopharyngeal nerve (salivation)  
- Vagus nerve (input to thoracic and abdominal viscera)  
 
 
Axons of the sympathetic preganglionic neurons leave the spinal cord via the ventral roots and end in the sympathetic ganglion chain or in the collateral ganglia where cell bodies of postganglionic neuron are located. Axons of the parasympathetic preganglionic neurons leave the brain stem (cranial outflow) and end near the visceral structures in the head, thorax and upper abdomen. Another group of axons of the parasympathetic preganglionic neuron leave the S2-S4 of the spinal cord and end near the viscera in the pelvic region.
 
 
* Ganglion - a group of nerve cell bodies
* Viscera - organ of digestive, respiratory, urogenital and endocrine systems as well as spleen, heart and great vessels; hollow and multilayer-walled organs. (Viscus - singular form of viscera)
* Ramus - a primary division or branch of a nerve or blood vessel.
* Splanchnic - visceral
* Mesentery - peritoneum attached to the abdominal wall and enclosing in its fold a part or all of one of the abdominal viscera.
 
 
Neurotransmitters released by neurons of the ANS
 
The major neurotransmitter released by the preganglionic neurons of the sympathetic and parasympathetic system is acetylcholine (ACh). ACh acts on the nicotinic cholinergic receptors on postganglionic neurons and causes depolarization and firing of the postganglionic neuron. The action potentials that arrive at the nerve terminal of the postganglionic neuron then cause release of synaptic vesicles containing norepinephrine or ACh by the process of exocytosis. The neurotransmitter released by the sympathetic postganglionic neuron is norepinephrine (NE) whereas the neurotransmitter released by the parasympathetic postganglionic neuron is ACh.  
 
 
 
Exception:  
The postganglionic sympathetic fibers that innervate blood vessels of skeletal muscles and sweat glands in the skin are cholinergic, i.e., ACh is the neurotransmitter. They are referred to as the “cholinergic sympathetic” pathway. The adrenal medulla is innervated by the preganglionic cholinergic fiber. Adrenal gland releases both epinephrine (80-90%) and norepinephrine (10-20%).
 
The effects of the sympathetic nervous system are more widespread, massive, diffuse, and generalized than those of the parasympathetic system. This is because of the divergent nature of the sympathetic nervous system. Each preganglionic neuron synapses with many postganglionic neurons each with different neuro-effector junctions. Furthermore, stimulation of the adrenal gland results in release of both epinephrine and norepinephrine (catecholamines) into the blood stream. Also, the catecholamines are deactivated more slowly than ACh.
 
In general, sympathetic nervous system stimulates those activities that are expressed during emergency and stress situations, also called the “fight, fright and flight activities”. There is expenditure of energy due to acceleration of the rate and force of heartbeat, increase in blood pressure and sugar.
 
The effects of the parasympathetic nervous system are localized and discrete, and ACh is inactivated quickly by the enzyme cholinesterase. The parasympathetic system stimulates those activities that bring about conservation and restoration of energy stores. The two systems act in concert to maintain the internal environment of the organism for a given physiological state of the individual.
 
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #71 on: Dec 9th, 2007, 6:49pm »
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Sympathetic Chain
 

 
 
Parasympathetic chain
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #72 on: Dec 9th, 2007, 6:53pm »
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on Dec 9th, 2007, 3:36pm, SchwarzenSchafe wrote:
There's no ganglion under the angle of the jaw, in the hollow created between the sterno-cleido mastoid (neck muscle, makes the divet at the sternum-collarbone articulation) and the jaw is there? I get a lump there that I rub when I get hit, it isn't painful but it swells up, I've always thought it was a lymph node and had no idea why it would swell when hit.

 
 
I am not 100% sure if I have got it right but you might be referring to the submandibular ganglion which is under the jaw, the position may not be exactly the same in different people, it maybe a few cms out from under the jaw line but its around there never the less.
 
Check the diagram above.
 
I hope this helps.
 
Try applying ice or heat to it next time during a hit and see what it does to the pain level.
 
Good luck and painfree wishes to you.
 
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #73 on: Dec 14th, 2007, 5:08am »
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Thank you so much for this thread!  You may have changed my life in a small way!
 
I'm a new clusterhead, having been diagnosed last Thursday, and just having found this site yesterday.  Unfortunately, I've had 8 years dancing with the devil (I've been calling it that for 2 years, not knowing what it was).  8 years of doctor's scratching their heads, X-rays, CTs, MRIs, pills pills pills, more pills (did I mention pills?).  Physical therapists, more doctors, neurologists ("you don't have any neurological symptoms - I don't know why you were referred here").  Chiropractors, more PTs, pain specialists, more chiros, massage therapists.  Anyway, my wife finally said "screw it," and we finally went to Mayo on our own dime.  Their docs weren't much better, but after $25k that our business had to take a loan to pay for and their general doctor telling me I just needed to lose weight 6 weeks ago ("But I was thin and healthy when this SH** started years ago, you Bi**!!!!!!"), the Headache Fellow in the neurology dept finally diagnosed me with chronic cluster headaches last thursday.
 
So why am I excited about this thread?  Well, I've had plenty of misdiagnoses over the years, and "headache" doesn't come close to fitting what the average person would think of the symptoms I've experienced the past 3 years.  I've been worried that I may have some underlying problem beyond CH, and CH is simply a symptom of something else, especially since I have begun every visit to every doctor for the past 8 years with the following story:
 
"In April of 2000 my wife was rubbing my head while we lay in bed, and she felt a lump on the back of my neck, left side, at the base of the skull, an inch left of center.  I went to the doctor, and she said 'there's nothing there but soft tissue, so I wouldn't worry about it.  Just wait a month and see if it goes away.'  Well, I didn't feel anything at the time, and I was perfectly healthy, but my neck started to hurt, and then I had a headache that lasted 6 months without stopping, and it hasn't gone away for long since."
 
Doctors' eyes usually glaze over when I tell that part of the story, and then start with their own questions, and I've never had even one of them sound interested about the lump-in-the-neck.  Since that was the first physical symptom I ever had, I figured it should somehow be important, but they just stare at me, and act like I never mentioned it.  Even the neuro who diagnosed CH just gave me the standard "smile and wait for the patient to stop talking so I can hear myself talk again" look, and didn't say a thing about it.  I've Googled many times trying to find something, but never did (obviously didn't try "cluster lump on back of neck", or I would have had my diagnosis years ago).
 
Reading this thread gave me the most hope I've felt in 8 years, that maybe cluster headaches really is the one and final answer to the utter hell that I've been through - not just for the headaches, but for everything else.  From everything I've read, nearly all of my non-headache symptoms can be explained by automonic activation, but little things like that swelling at the back of my neck that started it all were still bugging me, especially since over a dozen doctors didn't seem to take it seriously, especially the world-renowned neuros I mortgaged my children to see at Mayo.
 
Okay - sorry.  I'm not usually as angry as I sound right now.  I had my first nasal Zomig spray 2 days ago, and my first headache free day in 18 months, and they're back tonight.  That's the only treatment I have right now that has worked, my headache came back tonight, and I'm waiting until tomorrow to use another because my %#$!ing doctor said to only use 2 per week, and I want to be headache free on Saturday to have fun with my boys for the first time this decade.
 
I'll post my story in the "1st post" section soon - maybe after the meds give me more pain-free days and I can laugh at it a bit more.
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Re: Cluster lump on back of neck
« Reply #74 on: Dec 14th, 2007, 5:24am »
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on Dec 9th, 2007, 3:36pm, SchwarzenSchafe wrote:
There's no ganglion under the angle of the jaw, in the hollow created between the sterno-cleido mastoid (neck muscle, makes the divet at the sternum-collarbone articulation) and the jaw is there? I get a lump there that I rub when I get hit, it isn't painful but it swells up, I've always thought it was a lymph node and had no idea why it would swell when hit.

 
Annette is 100% right - you're feeling the submandibular ganglion.  Before I had even heard of CH or this whole cluster lump thing, about 8 weeks ago, I had a bad swelling in exactly that spot.  My gums became badly sensitive like Gingivitus, and all of my teeth felt like they had cavitis.  I couldn't chew or eat anything for 2 or 3 days, and had to put food in a blender and suck it through a straw.  Searching images on the internet, all I could find there was the submandibular gland, which excretes saliva, and can sometimes become blocked by a stone and cause a similar problem, but it doesn't go away as quickly.
 
Your problem, if you have CH, sounds exactly like what everyone else here has, but must be a swelling of the submandibular ganglion rather than the various other ganglion nerve bundles that others have reported.  Mine has become tender quite a few different times with headache attacks, but whenever I mentioned it to my neurologist they just asked if I grind my teeth.  I hate smileys, but here goes:    Angry Yeah, it's just TMJ.   Roll Eyes
 
It almost brings a tear to the eye.  Grin (For those of you paying attention, that's my first ever CH joke!!!!  I'm only at a kip 3, which is as good as I get, so deal with it)
IP Logged

The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence."
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