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        Daily Chat >> General Posts >> Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
        
(Message started by: Jonny on May 6th, 2008, 9:30pm)
Title: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 6th, 2008, 9:30pm
Broke Americans Can't Afford Gasoline
The price of oil broke a new record this morning--in dollar terms, that is. Oil is now the most expensive it's ever been--for Americans, that is. You see the dollar is barely worth anything against the ruble anymore, so we don't feel this supposed price rise here in Russia. Quite the opposite, Russia, which is the world's largest producer of oil, is only getting richer off of fat Americans who drive SUVs.

America is helpless to stop its slide into irrelevancy. It cannot control or bully oil-rich countries like Russia and OPEC. It has no choice but to bend over and pay what we make them pay. It has no control over its own economy anymore, as the Daily Telegraph writes:

The verdict is in. The Fed's emergency rate cuts in January have failed to halt the downward spiral towards a full-blown debt deflation. Much more drastic action will be needed.

The debt markets are freezing ever deeper, a full eight months into the crunch. Contagion is spreading into the safest pockets of the US credit universe.

"I never thought I would see anything like this in my life," said James Steele, an HSBC economist in New York."

That last whining bitch made me laugh out loud at my office desk. Poor James Steele, poor America! I'm trying to remember how much Americans pitied Russia after the financial crisis in August 1998. What I remember was a lot of editorialists and think-tank analysts saying it was all Russia's fault. I remember them saying that since Russia was starting to turn away from disastrous IMF free market economics, that the West should cut off all aid and teach Russia a lesson, even if it meant Russians would starve to death.

I think about that, and then I have a good deep satisfying laugh when I read a story like this, about poor American losers who now have to rob just to buy gas money. That is, they have to steal to make enough money to buy what Russia produces, because poor Americans, with their shitty dollar, cannot afford our oil:

"An Orlando tourist was robbed at gunpoint early Monday by several men who said they committed the crime for gas money, according to police."

You stupid dumbshit Americans are now like a bunch of drug bums who have to steal to buy what we Russians sell. Ha ha, fuck you all, you fat stupid dumbshits. I enjoy watching you beg for our oil. Maybe now you will be forced to get out of your fucking SUVs and walk and so you'll finally lose some of that ugly fat on your bodies. In this way, Russia is doing you a favor! (But not as much of a favor as you dumbshits do for Russia by making us richer every day!)

Spasibo amerikosam! It has never been so easy for a country to get rich so quickly as we have off of you, gullible American losers! Thank you for making my day, as I celebrate the victory of Dmitry Medvedev, no matter what you say.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=50e_1210111727

We can either drill and build refineries or we can fold at the hands of these bastards!

I say drill on our own land......Why the fuck not?

What say you?
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by barry_sword on May 6th, 2008, 10:13pm
We seem to have quite a big reserve here in Canada, here is the story on it.
http://www.rense.com/general37/petrol.htm

We know that no-matter what happens, our pump prices will be as high as we have ever seen, today we are at $1.21 liter, all time high. >:(
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Brew on May 6th, 2008, 10:15pm
Anything's better than turning corn into pseudo-gasoline.

I'm going to send my next carburator repair bill to the EPA. If they don't pay it, I'm sending it to the Wisconsin state legislature.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 6th, 2008, 10:18pm
Man, we are fucked if we dont start tapping our own!

Pain free night to you all.....Nite!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by pattik on May 6th, 2008, 10:40pm
You know, that foul language you quoted in your post is actually more reminiscent of some of the language I sometimes read right here on good ol' CH.com, but I suppose we don't have a corner on looking ignorant from how we use language.  At any rate, here is a current list of the nations from which we import our oil, and Russia is a distant 15th on the list.  And many thanks to Canada for doing business with us. ;)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by barry_sword on May 6th, 2008, 10:49pm

on 05/06/08 at 22:18:59, Jonny wrote:
Pain free night to you all.....Nite!


Back at you Bro!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 6th, 2008, 11:03pm
Personally, I would prefer to not drill in ANWAR and use the money to research a new fuel source.  
Fixing the problem is always more beneficial than going in debt to buy bandaids.

We need to make oil as obsolete as the commodore 64.  
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Brew on May 6th, 2008, 11:17pm

on 05/06/08 at 23:03:37, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
Personally, I would prefer to not drill in ANWAR and use the money to research a new fuel source.  
Fixing the problem is always more beneficial than going in debt to buy bandaids.

We need to make oil as obsolete as the commodore 64.  

Oil will become obsolete when it's gone.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Argonaut on May 6th, 2008, 11:46pm
I agree with BMonee - the rising fuel prices should be a push for alternative [and cleaner] energy sources, rather than tapping into more oil reserves. It is also a call to explore other methods of transportation and change our perspectives on energy usage.

Oil is a finite resource, and the longer we are dependent on it, the harder we will be hit when it is depleted.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 7th, 2008, 12:11am

on 05/06/08 at 22:40:15, pattik wrote:
You know, that foul language you quoted in your post is actually more reminiscent of some of the language I sometimes read right here on good ol' CH.com, but I suppose we don't have a corner on looking ignorant from how we use language.


[smiley=bigtiny.gif] [smiley=finger.gif] :-*
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 7th, 2008, 1:41am

on 05/06/08 at 22:15:39, Brew wrote:
Anything's better than turning corn into pseudo-gasoline.

I'm going to send my next carburator repair bill to the EPA. If they don't pay it, I'm sending it to the Wisconsin state legislature.


Works for me. Ethanol ain't gonna work the way it's promoted. Brazil does it better with sugar. I'm not sure we can go there either.  The bright spot may be that just maybe along the way something else will pop up from all the research.  It costs way too much to produce.

It's time for big oil and wherever cars are made to let loose with research that they don't really want to use.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by LeLimey on May 7th, 2008, 5:26am
And oil companies are still posting record profits.. and governments are still putting shocking sales tax on it and it seems everyone is laughing all the way to the bank except those who have to choose.. Do I buy food to eat or do I put petrol in the car to go shopping?
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Brew on May 7th, 2008, 7:30am

on 05/06/08 at 23:46:26, Argonaut wrote:
Oil is a finite resource, and the longer we are dependent on it, the harder we will be hit when it is depleted.

No, we should use it up. We'll get to the time when your alternative energy source is needed much faster.

Drag out our use of it and it'll be much longer before alternative fuels are developed.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by jimmers on May 7th, 2008, 8:38am

on 05/07/08 at 07:30:04, Brew wrote:
No, we should use it up. We'll get to the time when your alternative energy source is needed much faster.

Drag out our use of it and it'll be much longer before alternative fuels are developed.


BINGO!!!!!!!!!1
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by George_J on May 7th, 2008, 9:31am
Drilling in the ANWR?  

To get the oil that is extracted from point "A" to point "B", you need a pipeline.

Might be nice if an industry that's pig-wallowing in record profits could be bothered to maintain the pipeline upon which the whole thing depends:

www.jpo.doi.gov/Publications/CMPs/CMP6/CMP_6.pdf

(As the pdf above indicates, it's not a new problem.)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pipeline-crisis-could-halve-flow-of-oil-412898.html

Let's ask if they've bothered to patch up the pipe first, eh?

Best,

George
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Paul98 on May 7th, 2008, 9:46am

on 05/06/08 at 23:46:26, Argonaut wrote:
I agree with BMonee - the rising fuel prices should be a push for alternative [and cleaner] energy sources, rather than tapping into more oil reserves. It is also a call to explore other methods of transportation and change our perspectives on energy usage.

Oil is a finite resource, and the longer we are dependent on it, the harder we will be hit when it is depleted.


What alternatives?  Hydro?  Solar? wind? biofuel?  nuclear?  each and every one has an environmental group lobying to prevent it!  Look at Fat Boy Ted...No windmills of his horizon.  Just what do you do?  EtOH is one of the biggest fools gold ploys fed to the public in the 21st century and it was the environmentalists, Sen. Tommy Dashel and clinton that started bulldozing that road.

Cannada, the Gulf of Mexico and the Bakken Formation in ND would make oil imports from the middle East look like a fart in a wind storm.  Until the politicians stand up to the environmental lobbys we are going to see ever increasing prices at the pump and the grocery store.  Perhaps when the pols cant afford a loaf of bread they will actually take meaningful steps to do something about it.

-P.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 7th, 2008, 11:00am

on 05/06/08 at 23:46:26, Argonaut wrote:
Oil is a finite resource, and the longer we are dependent on it, the harder we will be hit when it is depleted.


Along the lines of what Paul mentions, business factors aside, there's no shortage of fossil fuels within the Earth.  Whatever affect their continued use has upon our lifestyles and environment will be compounded increasingly long before they run out.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by monty on May 7th, 2008, 11:30am
We probably should start looking at drilling in Anwar. But it is not going to preserve our current way of life.  If we could get it all at once, it would last about three months. But we cant, it will be a small amount of oil each day spread out over 30 or 50 years.  We will still pay whatever price for that oil that the world market dictates - Anwar won't lower the market price noticeably.  Anwar is the last big known oil deposit on US soil that isn't tapped - maybe offshore will yield more, but the easy pickins have mostly been picked.

The oil people like to point out how little impact drilling has today with modern methods.  But a few decades ago, that was not the case. I have been on farms with oil wells, and the salts released from pumping scorched the land.  So waiting this long has been good.  The oil is also worth alot more today than it was when it was discovered.

Also, there is a $4 billion expansion gearing up at a St. Louis refinery that will make it one of the largest refineries in the world, I think they start construction in a month or two.  They will mostly be processing oil from Canada.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Ghost on May 7th, 2008, 11:47am
How about we drill omar instead?
We should raise the price of the food we send them the same as they raise the price of oil. Like them keep our cost down and raise theirs. Saudi citizens pay approx .49 cents a gallon. lets charge the 150.00 for a bushell of corn, potatos, beans, wheat,ect...
fair is fair! no more free money to the other countries either, they all need to pay back now.

Mike

Goat Attack!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by kevmd on May 7th, 2008, 1:47pm
the only thing pissing me of more than gas prices are clusterheadaches.  But any way, this country is falling apart.  There is less disposable income in a 2 income house hold today then there was in a single income house hold 30 years ago.  ALL companies and industries took advantage of women going into the work place, in my opinion.  And no Ladies, I am not blaming you for high gas prices!!!  But I do blame my wiife for high cell phone bills.  That thing is going down the garbage disposal one of these days.  Man, I just completely wandered off the topic.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Brew on May 7th, 2008, 2:02pm

on 05/07/08 at 13:47:19, kevmd wrote:
Man, I just completely wandered off the topic.

In spades, dude. In spades. ;;D
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by seasonalboomer on May 7th, 2008, 2:18pm
okay, I'm going to say something positive here....................................................................... 4 day work week.
Very nice opportunity to cut back on fuel use in our country.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Sandy_C on May 7th, 2008, 2:18pm

on 05/07/08 at 07:30:04, Brew wrote:
No, we should use it up. We'll get to the time when your alternative energy source is needed much faster.

Drag out our use of it and it'll be much longer before alternative fuels are developed.


In a way, I agree with Brew here.  It's not just the US, but the entire world is dependent on a finite source.  Drilling for more oil, anywhere, will not solve the ultimate problem.  This world will run out of oil.  Once the world realizes that, alternatives will be found, and will be found very quickly.

We, the US, as well as every other country in the world need to start focusing on finding alternative fuel sources (ethanol not being one of them, right Brew  ::)

As to Jonny's original post of comments from Russia...
In all honesty, that Russian is somewhat right.  The US citizens are bloated in our use of finite fuel sources.  

How many other countries in the world has as many SUVs on their roads as we do?    Don't get me wrong, I own one, but I've realized that my comfort and enjoyment of having an SUV is costing me greatly in gas consumption, and is contributing to the US, and the world's depletion of a finite fuel source.  Do I want to keep my SUV?  Nope.

Right now finding new fuel sources, mandating cars with better mileage and less pollution is a worldwide priority, and the US has to step up to the plate. Mandate manufacturing factories find new sources of fuel that don't have provide and cleaner fuel sources.

We have been spoiled.  It's time for us to wake up and grow up and start now!

Sandy
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Brew on May 7th, 2008, 2:23pm

on 05/07/08 at 14:18:42, Sandy_C wrote:
(ethanol not being one of them, right Brew  ::)

You said a mouthful, birthday girl!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 7th, 2008, 6:51pm
How much oil is in Anwr anyway?

No matter what we do about oil and all the fun stuff that goes with it, it's time to get serious about stuff like electric cars.........no not those but the ones that GM leased but wouldn't sell to all the Hollywood types that tried them. GM refused millions in offers for them. Nope. They spent months recovering them and tried to secretly crush them. They did crush them of course. They did a bang up job of keeping its very existence low key. It was way too successful. Such sweet guys.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 7th, 2008, 6:59pm
George Carlin's
Solution to Save Gasoline


Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use.....

The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants!


That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.....



Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the Border...

When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq .

Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military....

Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it....


After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country.....

He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot.....

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves......


If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.....

Problem solved.....
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by chewy on May 7th, 2008, 7:21pm
http://www.anwr.org/ANWR-Basics/What-is-ANWR-and-where-is-it.php
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 7th, 2008, 7:57pm
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yl3F7-XgX9w&feature=related

According to the letter, "OCS lease sale 193 is estimated to contain 15 billion barrels of oil and 77 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, for a combined total of 27.8 billion barrels of oil equivalent. ANWR is estimated to hold another 10.4 billion barrels of oil, for a total of 38.2 billion barrels of oil.

"This would almost double the total United States proven reserves of oil," it states. "Lease Sale 193 and ANWR represent nearly $3 trillion to the U.S. economy, if we choose to develop them."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200801/POL20080124b.html
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by jimmers on May 7th, 2008, 9:22pm
Bottom line:

We can bitch all we want, NOTHING WILL GET DONE!!!!!!!!!!

Thats politics baby!!!!!!!!

Politics+Special interests=Your fucked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jimmers >:(
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Linda_Howell on May 7th, 2008, 9:44pm

 
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom line:

We can bitch all we want, NOTHING WILL GET DONE!!!!!!!!!!

Thats politics baby!!!!!!!!

Politics+Special interests=Your fucked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jimmers  



   Jimmers, we just may have been twins seperated at birth.   I couldn't agree more.

    Let's talk until the cows come home.  Just a waste of breath to me, which is why I never enter these threads.  uh, except for this one.   :-/

   Politics+Special interests=Your fucked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  YEP!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by stevegeebe on May 7th, 2008, 10:17pm
It is not just about fuel for your car.

It is about every facet of our modern lives.

Petroleum made all we have today possible. It was an incredable gift and we soon will realize that we squandered it.

Profound change will be thrust upon us humans and we are not going to like it.

These are the good old days.

Steve G
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Callico on May 7th, 2008, 11:21pm

on 05/07/08 at 05:26:14, LeLimey wrote:
And oil companies are still posting record profits.. and governments are still putting shocking sales tax on it and it seems everyone is laughing all the way to the bank except those who have to choose.. Do I buy food to eat or do I put petrol in the car to go shopping?


Oil companies are posting record profits, but their return on investment (ROI) is smaller than most major corporations on any of the stock exchanges.  The press likes to make it look like they are raping us, but they do not set pricing.  That is done on the open market.  The manipulation of the supply is not done by the oil companies, but by the non-free market countries of OPEC who control the amount that is pumped from the wells.

Jerry
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kirk on May 7th, 2008, 11:42pm

on 05/06/08 at 23:03:37, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
We need to make oil as obsolete as the commodore 64.  


   WHAT! I still have games for the 64!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 8th, 2008, 12:26am

on 05/07/08 at 23:21:42, Callico wrote:
Oil companies are posting record profits, but their return on investment (ROI) is smaller than most major corporations on any of the stock exchanges.  
Jerry



Not to be argumentative, but this is unbelievably wrong.  Net stockholder equity and retained earnings for exxon are much larger than even the largest companies, such as GE, Ford, Microsoft, Coke and McDonalds.  

Exxon has made (after taxes) NET almost $40 Billion for each of the last 3 years.  Fixed assets are $120 Billion.  That doesnt seem like a bad ROI to me.  
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by pattik on May 8th, 2008, 8:10am

on 05/07/08 at 23:21:42, Callico wrote:
Oil companies are posting record profits, but their return on investment (ROI) is smaller than most major corporations on any of the stock exchanges.  The press likes to make it look like they are raping us, but they do not set pricing.  That is done on the open market.  The manipulation of the supply is not done by the oil companies, but by the non-free market countries of OPEC who control the amount that is pumped from the wells.

Jerry


I think you're absolutely correct in this statement. I'm not surprised that this thread has turned into just another oil company bashing theme.  Anyone who pays attention to stock investing knows that there are better returns to be had (on a long term basis) than the big oil companies. They do okay, but a couple of good years don't put them at the top of the heap in overall investor return.   In fact, they've been taking loses in the refinery end of the business due to the cost of crude.  The price of crude oil is set on the OPEN market--world wide--based on supply and demand--and it's priced in dollars.  Unfortunately for the U.S., the buying ability of the dollar has sunk like a rock.  Even individual investors speculate in the oil market as a hedge against the dollar, and some of the experts are calling for $200/barrel oil, depending on outside factors like political problems in other countries as well as hurricanes disrupting refinery production.

BTW, Jonny.... George Carlin might disagree with you about attributing him to the illegal immigrant solution  :-*
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/carlingas.asp
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by deltadarlin on May 8th, 2008, 8:30am
http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2008/MediaMyth/Crude_Coverage/CrudeCompany.asp
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Callico on May 8th, 2008, 8:47am
BMonee,

If you invest in a company based on their fixed assets alone I would like to have you invest in mine!!!

Operating costs, (CODB) for the oil companies is a FAR greater factor than is the fixed cost of their assets.  

Chuck Shumer and his ilk in the Senate who accuse the oil companies and drag them before the Senate to "investigate" them for gouging are doing nothing but grandstanding.  During the last "investigation" when they had the CEO's of the various companies in the Senate he used his time as a diatribe against them with not one question directed to them.

We have wells capped in various areas of the country because of governmental regulation.  We have known fields in the continental US that have been placed off limits for years, not to mention off shore areas and Alaska.  The Federal Government has not issued a permit for a new refinery in the United States since 1973.  It takes about 10 yrs for a refinery to get the permits to expand an existing refinery.  I heard one exec say in an interview a while back that it costs more for the permitting process than it costs to actually build the refinery!

the blame for our current oil situation does not rest on the oil companies.  It rests in Washington DC.

Darlin, great article!

Jerry
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by superhawk2300 on May 8th, 2008, 9:18am
Actually America has more oil in it's reserves now than anytime for the past decade.

And our refining capability is at an all time high as well.

And consumer consumption is down about 15% from the same time last year, due to people not driving as much and all those Prius's on the road.

If one removes the amount we are putting into the startic reserve we would have more oil available now than any other time in my life time.

By all accounts of a capitialistic society gas prices should be around 2 dollars a gallon.

Hows that grab ya?
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by superhawk2300 on May 8th, 2008, 9:24am
And the oil companies DO set their own prices.

When a gas station is determining the price it is going to charge it does a survey of all the stations in the surrounding area and they call that in to the corporate office, which in turn tells that station what to set its prices at.

Ever see a Mobil station at one side of town have gas for a certain price and just across town the Mobil station has gas for a different price? (this appies to all stations, not just Mobil).

The cost of a gallon of gas has almost nothing to do with the cost of a barrel of oil.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Paul98 on May 8th, 2008, 9:27am
The problem is that supply and demand are no longer the driving force setting the prices.  True demand has been artificially replaced by speculation.  The same thing is happening right now with grains.

-P.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by George_J on May 8th, 2008, 9:41am

on 05/08/08 at 09:27:11, Paul98 wrote:
The problem is that supply and demand are no longer the driving force setting the prices.  True demand has been artificially replaced by speculation.  The same thing is happening right now with grains.

-P.


If that is indeed the case, (and I suspect that it is--this latest pile-on bears no relationship to increased demand or decreased supply) then we ought to see a massive correction in the market.  Speculation will only inflate markets in the short term--this has been true for everything from tulips to internet IPO's to real estate.  The bubble inevitably collapses.

Sooner or later, those speculating in grain and oil are going to be handed their heads.  I only hope that the gummint doesn't bail them out afterwards--but I suppose that will depend on who they are.

Best,

George
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 8th, 2008, 9:56am

on 05/08/08 at 08:47:34, Callico wrote:
BMonee,

If you invest in a company based on their fixed assets alone I would like to have you invest in mine!!!

Operating costs, (CODB) for the oil companies is a FAR greater factor than is the fixed cost of their assets.  


Jerry, you were talking about the ROI.  Operating costs are not part of this subject.

If we were to pretend COGS is part of the ROI, Exxon is still highly profitable.....much more than most companies.  Take 2007 as an example, they had $404 billion in revenue and $233 billion in cost of revenue.  Thats a gross profit of$172 billion on $233 billion in costs.  Thats, what, a 75% gross profit margin?  
You are saying a 75% gross profit margin is smaller than most?!?!  Whats the gross profit margin on your company?
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 8th, 2008, 11:13am
Defending oil companies. What next? Drug companies are great guys.

Exxon's NET profit this month is $1,385 per SECOND.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2008, 12:13pm

on 05/08/08 at 11:13:23, Charlie wrote:
Defending oil companies. What next?


If anyone likes the comments in defense of the oil companies by the Heritage Foundation and the Cato Institute that are made in the link Delta posted, then you would really love their paid defense the tobacco industry, too.  They employ the same minded, paid "scientific researchers" and the same persons in places.


on 05/08/08 at 08:30:02, deltadarlin wrote:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2008/MediaMyth/Crude_Coverage/CrudeCompany.asp



Heritage Foundation

Heritage Foundation has received $490,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998.

Patrick J. Michaels
Policy Expert

Sallie Baliunas
Policy Experts

Robert C. Balling Jr.
Policy Expert

S. Fred Singer
Policy Expert

Thomas Gale Moore
Policy Expert




Cato Institute

Cato Institute has received $125,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998.

Patrick J. Michaels
Senior Fellow, Environmental Studies

S. Fred Singer
Editorial Advisory Board

Robert C. Balling Jr.
Conference Speaker

Richard Lindzen
Contributing Writer

Andrei Illarionov
co-sponsor of conference

Thomas Gale Moore
Adjunct Scholar





http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Climate_change_sceptics

Sallie Louise Baliunas: received in 1997 the Petr Beckmann Award for her "devastating critique of the global warming hoax."



Robert C. Balling: has acknowledged that he had received $408,000 in research funding from the fossil fuel industry over the last decade. Contributors include ExxonMobil, the British Coal Corporation, Cyprus Minerals and OPEC.

He writes regularly for the Cato Institute

His writings find him regularly in the company of other prominent climate change scholars, including Sallie L. Baliunas, and S. Fred Singer of the Science and Environmental Policy Project.

(his views are employed by both Heritage and Cato)


Richard S. Lindzen: charged "oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services; [and] his 1991 trip to testify before a Senate committee was paid for by Western Fuels and a speech he wrote, entitled 'Global Warming: the Origin and Nature of Alleged Scientific Consensus,' was underwritten by OPEC."  


Patrick J. Michaels:  a Senior Fellow in Environmental Studies with the Cato Institute.  Michaels was previously a Professor of Environmental Science at the University of Virgina. While Michaels referred to himself as the State Climatologist for Virginia, in August 2006 the Governor clarified that the appointment was one by the University for its accredited climatology office but not an appointment by the state administration.  When Michaels left the university in September 2007, UVa professor James N. Galloway explained that Michaels' "utility industry funding, private research and controversial views on global warming made him a lightning rod on climate change issues," and "left the [climatologist's] office too politicized."

"Michaels has received more than $115,000 over the last four years from coal and energy interests. World Climate Review, a quarterly he founded that routinely debunks climate concerns, was funded by Western Fuels."

A furor was raised when it was revealed in 2006 that, at customer expense, Patrick Michaels was quietly paid $100,000 by an electric utility, Intermountain Rural Electric Association, which burns coal to help confuse the issue of global warming

"Michaels' statements on [the subject of computer models] are a catalog of misrepresentation and misinterpretation. Many of the supposedly factual statements made in Michaels' testimony are either inaccurate or are seriously misleading."

(his views are employed by both Heritage and Cato)


S. Fred Singer: Editorial Advisory Board, The Cato Institute.  In a September 24, 1993, sworn affidavit, Dr. Singer admitted to doing climate change research on behalf of oil companies, such as Exxon, Texaco, Arco, Shell and the American Gas Association.

Fred Singer's group and Exxon met at the American Petroleum Institute's Washington headquarters. They proposed a $5 million campaign, according to a leaked eight-page memo, to convince the public that the science of global warming is riddled with controversy and uncertainty." The plan was reportedly aimed at "raising questions about and undercutting the 'prevailing scientific wisdom'" on climate change. According to Newsweek, the plan was leaked to the press and therefore was never implemented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._Fred_Singer

(his views are employed by both Heritage and Cato)


Thomas Gale Moore:  author of Climate of Fear: Why We Shouldn't Worry about Global Warming.
 Moore blew smoke in America's face when he served as "peer-reviewer" for a Tobacco Institute hogwash report: Science, Economics, and Environmental Policy: A Critical Examination.
 The tobacco links to Cato and C.E.I. are well documented, and do not need repetition -- just click the links provided. The Independent Institute is another Koch-funded organ using tabacco-techniques of the white lab coats to dissemble about global warming, of which Moore is an identified flack. Remember, Koch is an OIL company, even if they loan troops for tobacco battles. The evidence of this report is that Moore is corrupt, and was so on the day his name was listed on this report. Funders to Moore's various institutes include the "usual suspects" Olin-Bradley-Koch-Scaife, et al.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Thomas_Gale_Moore

(his views are employed by Heritage and Cato)


Andrei Illarionov is the chief economic Adviser to the President of the Russian Federation.


They always make sure they are heard with a "it's not our fault" for oil and tobacco concerns.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2008, 4:16pm

on 05/08/08 at 08:10:49, pattik wrote:
Anyone who pays attention to stock investing knows that there are better returns to be had (on a long term basis) than the big oil companies.


This from 2006, and things are going much better now.


Quote:
Fadel Gheit, an oil analyst at Oppenheimer. "I have been watching it for 20 years and it never fails to amaze me."

money.cnn.com/2006/10/26/news/companies/exxon_earnings/index.htm





on 05/08/08 at 08:10:49, pattik wrote:
They do okay, but a couple of good years don't put them at the top of the heap in overall investor return.   In fact, they've been taking loses in the refinery end of the business due to the cost of crude.



Quote:
Exxon's earnings did not top its best quarter ever, which came at the end of 2005. Exxon made $10.7 billion in the fourth quarter of 2005, the most ever for any U.S. corporation.

Crude prices hit record highs in the quarter but then sank about 20 percent from those highs. Still, prices were up about 12 percent for the quarter, on average, from a year earlier.

And earnings per share soared, topping even the amount Exxon earned in its record quarter thanks to a massive share buyback program.

Exxon said it distributed $8.9 billion to shareholders in the form of share buybacks and dividends in the most recent quarter, an increase of 30 percent from 2005.

This comes on top of the $11 billion that the company sent back to shareholders in the form of buybacks in the first two quarters, one analyst said Wednesday.



From today's news:


Quote:
As cash pours in from record-high oil prices, companies are also handing back billions of dollars to investors through share buybacks and higher dividends.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINL0780056620080508?rpc=44




This chart shows a 5 year stock price appreciation from about 38 to about 90 a share in the last five years.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=XOM&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=



This chart shows Exxon rising 100% over the Dow, Nasdaq and S&P in the last five years.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=XOM&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=&c=%5EGSPC&c=%5EIXIC&c=%5EDJI


Yeah, just "ok" I guess.  No reason to attract investor attention.



You should go back in history to read of the 1947 committee investigating oil companies, which reported this:


Quote:
The oil companies have shown a singular lack of good faith, an avaricious desire for enormous profits, while at the same time they constantly sought the cloaks of the United States protection and financial assistance to preserve their vast concessions.



The adminstration of the Marshall Plan began its own investigation and shut down their agreed plan with the oil companies.

The FTC initiated its own inquiry in 1949 and in November 1951 released its final report, which was the most damning portrait yet of the inner workings of the largest oil corporations and formally requested that the attorney general initiate a criminal investigation of them.

Worse yet, after conducting their own supplemental inquiry, senior officials in the Dept. of Justice decided to initiate criminal proceedings against oil companies.

Oil companies argued it was easy to criticize their current windfall profits without taking into account the enormous risks, investment, and environmental hostility they faced.  [sound familiar?]  Didn't fly, Truman's last act as president through civil litigation was NSC 138/1, which Ike's administration endorsed and ratified.

The fears of oil scarcity that had shaped U.S. postwar foreign policy once again proved totally unjustified, and that, a new era of overabundance became the next major problem.

from: "A History of an Unreliable Market"


A different era, different president addressing it, but it happened when they were trusted.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by jace77 on May 8th, 2008, 4:41pm

on 05/08/08 at 09:24:30, superhawk2300 wrote:
And the oil companies DO set their own prices.

When a gas station is determining the price it is going to charge it does a survey of all the stations in the surrounding area and they call that in to the corporate office, which in turn tells that station what to set its prices at.

Ever see a Mobil station at one side of town have gas for a certain price and just across town the Mobil station has gas for a different price? (this appies to all stations, not just Mobil).

The cost of a gallon of gas has almost nothing to do with the cost of a barrel of oil.


I asked the girl at a local gas station why the price went up from 3.42 to 3.89 gal within 2 hours and she said because we can!  The station is privately owned and she told me they are always about twenty cents higher than stations a few miles away because they are the only one around in the village!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by pattik on May 8th, 2008, 5:33pm

on 05/08/08 at 16:16:14, Kevin_M wrote:
This chart shows a 5 year stock price appreciation from about 38 to about 90 a share in the last five years.

                 >snip>
Yeah, just "ok" I guess.  No reason to attract investor attention.


Geeesh, Kev...you've really got a bee in your bonnet over XOM.  Yeah, that's quite a chart...too bad it's mostly on paper only, unless of course you keep selling on the way up.  Maybe you didn't notice their dividend is around 1.8%.  That's fairly mediocre returns compared to the evil banks, the evil pharmas, the evil gaming companies, and of course the evil tobacco companies.  It's even less than most of the other big integrated oils.  They've been getting a lot of heat from investors to raise their dividends.  I know that having them send ME money four times a year certainly takes some of the sting out of the price at the pump.  I would suggest that if people don't like a company's actions, they can spend their gas money elsewhere, or buy stock and at least vote their opinions.  There is a lot of investor activism these days.  How about you, Kev, what oil stock do you own?
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jimi on May 8th, 2008, 6:01pm
Can't speak for Kevin but I own stock in Conoco-Philips. Doing pretty good too. :P
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2008, 6:09pm

on 05/08/08 at 17:33:04, pattik wrote:
Geeesh, Kev...you've really got a bee in your bonnet over XOM.


No bee in my bonnet, Patti.  You presented your investment opinion of oil companies.  


Quote:
Anyone who pays attention to stock investing knows that there are better returns to be had (on a long term basis) than the big oil companies. They do okay, but a couple of good years don't put them at the top of the heap in overall investor return.


Noticing you mentioned "long term", I showed a five year price performance of a most noticeable corporation within the industry.  The opinion of it being an "ok" investment is open to opinion.  It looks better than ok to me.  
 Looking at a five year "long term" holding, (more than a couple of good years, as you stated) there seems to be more than an ok performance when the averages are so far below.  It might be thought that following the averages or being a little above the averages would be ok.  I wouldn't consider Exxon's performance in that range but above it on stock appreciation alone, dividends a plus.  




Quote:
That's fairly mediocre returns compared to the evil banks, the evil pharmas, the evil gaming companies, and of course the evil tobacco companies.  


Speaking of returns for long term holding, you can compare price appreciation here for Exxon with Bank of America (bank), and Pfizer (pharma), if I have the symbols right.  

Which would be bad, which would be ok, and which would be the best of the three?

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=XOM&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=bk%2C+pfe

Which would you rather have in your 401k, IRA, or investment porfolio?  The bank, the pharma, or the oil stock?  

If Exxon is ok for you, then perhaps it is ok compared to your other investments.  
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2008, 6:30pm

on 05/08/08 at 18:01:38, Jimi wrote:
I own stock in Conoco-Philips. Doing pretty good too. :P


Now there is an honest answer.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2008, 7:01pm

on 05/08/08 at 17:33:04, pattik wrote:
Maybe you didn't notice their dividend is around 1.8%.  


So that is the reason you have the stock?



I think the last split was 2001, maybe another in the future for long term holders.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 8th, 2008, 7:02pm
The thing about energy companies is that they make billions, billions and more billions keeping things as they are. Enviromentalists stand to make almost nothing from any real changes. Given this, whom would you expect to go out of their way to shut down debate and discredit scientific research?

Bend over kids.....might as well, we've been doing it for 100 years.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2008, 7:18pm

on 05/08/08 at 19:02:59, Charlie wrote:
they make billions, billions and more billions keeping things as they are.


That is the thing about the growing profits Charlie, the incentive gets greater and greater and with fossil fuel abundant, a resistant continuation onto who knows what but who's going to care.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Paul98 on May 8th, 2008, 7:23pm

on 05/08/08 at 19:02:59, Charlie wrote:
The thing about energy companies is that they make billions, billions and more billions keeping things as they are. Enviromentalists stand to make almost nothing from any real changes. Given this, whom would you expect to go out of their way to shut down debate and discredit scientific research?

Bend over kids.....might as well, we've been doing it for 100 years.

Charlie


Thankfully the oil companys have lots of lubricant ;;D

-P.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 8th, 2008, 7:29pm

on 05/08/08 at 19:23:33, Paul98 wrote:
Thankfully the oil companys have lots of lubricant ;;D

-P.


Now that's effen funny! http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/crackup.gif

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 8th, 2008, 7:31pm

on 05/08/08 at 19:23:33, Paul98 wrote:
Thankfully the oil companys have lots of lubricant ;;D



LOL!
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by pattik on May 8th, 2008, 11:43pm

on 05/08/08 at 19:01:58, Kevin_M wrote:
So that is the reason you have the stock?


That's a really good question.  Maybe a better question is why I do STILL have it?...on one hand, the directors of my  retirement pension plan keep it around, and I don't have any say in that.  The couple of shares that I actually control may very well be at a much larger capital gains risk very soon if Obama gets into the white house.  I've heard he wants to raise capital gains taxes, among others.  So maybe it's time to sell.
[smiley=grin2.gif]

Quote:
Thankfully the oil companys have lots of lubricant Grin
 ;;D
Gotta love those fossil fuels.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 9th, 2008, 5:55am

on 05/08/08 at 08:10:49, pattik wrote:
there are better returns to be had (on a long term basis) than the big oil companies. They do okay, but a couple of good years don't put them at the top of the heap in overall investor return.



A concern about capital gains taxes could be because of such a high return on investment from any long term realized gains.

This is not quite the only scenario when owning their stock.


Quote:
their dividend is around 1.8%.  That's fairly mediocre returns
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Paul98 on May 9th, 2008, 11:00am
Well folks, prices for crude hit $126 bbl. today which means that (roughly) each galon in that barrel costs $3.00. on the open market.  Prices in CNY are ~ $3.799 /gal this morning.    

80 cents for tax, refining costs, transportation......???

You think the price at the pump are bad now wait 2-4 weeks!  I'm willing to bet you see $4.30 by Memorial day.

It is going to be a rough summer!

-P.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by purpleydog on May 9th, 2008, 9:29pm
Developing alternative means of energy is important, so we don't have to reply on oil, and gas to heat our houses, fuel our vehicles, run our appliances.

That said, it's interesting, they want to build a wind farm here in the next county. Like they have in northern Illlinois, there are 3 or 4 wind farms, huge windmills, with huge blades. However, the state wants to tax this wind farm at $9000.00 per acre. Now, I figure, with the size of the windmills, it will take about 1 acre to have one windmill. Where is the incentive to switch to an alternative fuel source here? At several hundred acres, the state would be taking a lot of the energy profits in taxes? So, what the hell is the point? I guess the lobbyists  for the coal fired power plants must really have some pull.

Last year was the last year you could take a deduction for a solar powered energy system installed on your house. Gee, where's that incentive? And for your gas/ battery powered cars too.

And while we may argue about the profits of the oil companies, especially XOM, remember that their profits are not just selling just oil and natural gas to fuel your cars and homes. There are many petroleum products we all use on a daily basis, and some are used medically, and if we didn't have them, where would we be? Everything plastic you own is made from petroleum. Every plastic storage container, every plastic bag you use, the keyboards and mice, and monitor casings for your computers. Think about it.

While oil companies are now starting to call themselves energy companies, I have to commend them for at least trying to find alternative sources of energy. Petroleum won't last forever, but we sure use a lot of it in our lives, not counting the gasoline and diesel we use in our vehicles.


Quote:
You know, that foul language you quoted in your post is actually more reminiscent of some of the language I sometimes read right here on good ol' CH.com, but I suppose we don't have a corner on looking ignorant from how we use language

Good point, Patti.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 9th, 2008, 9:36pm

on 05/09/08 at 21:29:01, purpleydog wrote:
so we don't have to reply on oil, and gas to heat our houses, fuel our vehicles, run our appliances.


No, we dont have to reply.  :-*
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 10th, 2008, 10:32pm
Oil, or the ridiculous moniker "energy companies" are making the evil drug companies look good........nah. Nothing comes close to drug companies......anyway......

If you think energy companies have some itty bitty sense of responsibility other than making mount Everest-size piles of cash for the Dick Cheneys of the world; you need to visit earth real soon.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 10th, 2008, 11:42pm

on 05/09/08 at 21:29:01, purpleydog wrote:
And while we may argue about the profits of the oil companies, especially XOM, remember that their profits are not just selling just oil and natural gas to fuel your cars and homes.

Everything plastic you own is made from petroleum.


Yes, and that is still selling oil, which plastics are made from.  You can see here how consistently Mattel has considerably struggled with high oil prices compared to Exxon.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=XOM&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=mat
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 11th, 2008, 12:22pm

on 05/09/08 at 21:29:01, purpleydog wrote:
Developing alternative means of energy is important, so we don't have to reply on oil, and gas to heat our houses, fuel our vehicles, run our appliances.

While oil companies are now starting to call themselves energy companies, I have to commend them for at least trying to find alternative sources of energy. Petroleum won't last forever, but we sure use a lot of it in our lives, not counting the gasoline and diesel we use in our vehicles.


Just to clarify, concerning Exxon, this is not their strategy at all; our dependence on oil is heavily relied upon.  
 They've taken heat for it.  Here's what they are doing.



Quote:
Why Exxon Mobile Doesn't Care About Alternative Fuels

April 30, 2007

The basic model for managing an oil company in this eco-conscious age became clear a few years ago when Britain's BP (Charts) loudly declared itself to be "beyond petroleum." The other supermajors are all proclaiming their greenness and investing in biofuels, wind power and solar power. Exxon isn't. It only recently acknowledged publicly that - brace yourself - the world is warming. Beyond petroleum? At Exxon it's all petroleum.

...

[this again cites the oil-industry analyst I quoted earlier in the thread.]

"Exxon Mobil is not a fun place to work," says Fadel Gheit, the Oppenheimer & Co. oil industry analyst widely considered Wall Street's best. "They're not in the fun business," he explains. "They're in the profit business."

...

Exxon is certain that oil, gas and coal will remain the world's dominant energy sources for decades to come.

...

Fossil fuels will remain the planet's No. 1 energy source through the 21st century, supplying 70% to 80% of the total by 2100, vs. about 90% today. Exxon forecasts only as far as 2030; in that year, it projects, primary energy sources such as coal, oil and gas will account for 81% of global demand.

That's another reason Exxon isn't investing in alternative energy sources: They don't look big enough. For a company Exxon's size - No. 2 on the Fortune 500 - businesses of less than mammoth scale don't merit troubling with because they can't nudge the bottom line.

...

Exxon avoids investment in alternative energy sources for yet another reason, one that reaches deep into the company's experience: Much depends on the future price of oil, and no one knows what it will be. Consider two scenarios. If oil dropped to $25 a barrel - about what it was (in today's dollars) just before 9/11 - alternative energy would look even less attractive economically. Exxon's decision not to invest would look all the wiser, but its oil-related profits would shrink. Conversely, if oil rose to $100, its profits would rise but many alternative energy sources would become economically viable - and Exxon wouldn't be able to capitalize on them.

The company considers low-price oil the greater risk. Experience has shown that when oil prices rise, customers are slow to cut back. Alternative energy may sell better in a high-oil-price world, but Exxon wouldn't care, since it believes those sources are destined to be small-scale - and it would be making huge profits in its traditional business.

...

The answer is spelled out in a recent SEC filing: "Investment opportunities are tested against a variety of market conditions, including low-price scenarios. As a result, investments that would succeed only in highly favorable price environments are screened out of the investment plan." Alternative energy sources are precisely such investments.

...

[b]Exxon does have a strategy for a carbon-constrained world; it just has nothing to do with alternative energy.  The company's scientists are researching how to reduce CO2 emissions from oil and gas, and working with auto companies to make engines more efficient. Unlike, say, biomass or windmills, those are fields in which Exxon commands formidable expertise.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/04/30/8405398/index.htm




Quote:
Exxon Mobile to Discuss Alternative Energy

May 30th, 2007

Today the shareholders at Exxon Mobile meet to discuss the future of their investments into the development of alternative energy sources. Of course, company management does not think it to be a profitable endeavor and will discourage shareholders from proposing such investments, citing them as unprofitable and unnecessary.


In it's yearly proxy statement Exxon said "The corporation's traditional business areas remain critical and promise far greater value than renewables, which currently lack the scale and economic competitiveness of our core business opportunities". It makes sense that a company that specializes in fossil fuel production and distribution would make this statement, but the portion regarding the scale and economic competitiveness is somewhat true, unfortunately. The possibility that Exxon’s shareholders could decide to invest in more R&D would be a monumental business move in the green direction, but still looks unlikely. It's just progressive that they're even bringing it up at the meeting!

http://www.energyrefuge.com/blog/exxon-mobile-to-discuss/




Quote:
Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy Motor Oil Offers Fuel Savings and Reduced Greenhouse Gas Emissions

April 3, 2008 9:00 AM ET

If just one-third of U.S. motorists reduced their gasoline consumption by 2 percent, almost 1 billion gallons of gasoline and 8 million tons of carbon dioxide emissions would be saved every year. This would be equivalent to taking around 1.5 million cars off the road.

(Based on a comparison versus those grades most commonly used and a potential 2% fuel economy improvement. Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine type, outside temperature, driving conditions, and your current engine oil viscosity.)

[what is the higher cost of Mobil 1?]

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.aspx?Feed=BW&Date=20080403&ID=8433648&Symbol=XOM



From a link posted above:


Quote:
However the company also said greenhouse gas emissions were 146 million metric tons, a 5.4-percent increase over the year before.




Quote:
Exxon Bets $100M On Test To Clean CO2 From Natural Gas

May 6, 2008

Once removed, the carbon dioxide could be used for enhanced oilfield recovery or injected into underground storage, which could reduce the cost of producing gas from sour gas fields, Exxon said.

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2008/05/06/exxon-bets-100m-on-test-to-clean-co2-from-natural-gas/


While still with oil, CO2 extraction could reduce their costs, I see the incentive.



Quote:
"Exxon Mobil is not a fun place to work," says Fadel Gheit, the Oppenheimer & Co. oil industry analyst widely considered Wall Street's best. "They're not in the fun business," he explains. "They're in the profit business."



 

on 05/09/08 at 21:29:01, purpleydog wrote:
I have to commend them for at least trying to find alternative sources of energy.


I will hold off before commending Exxon.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by purpleydog on May 11th, 2008, 3:27pm

on 05/11/08 at 12:22:29, Kevin_M wrote:
Just to clarify, concerning Exxon, this is not their strategy at all; our dependence on oil is heavily relied upon.  
 They've taken heat for it.  Here's what they are doing.

I will hold off before commending Exxon.



Quote:
The basic model for managing an oil company in this eco-conscious age became clear a few years ago when Britain's BP (Charts) loudly declared itself to be "beyond petroleum." The other supermajors are all proclaiming their greenness and investing in biofuels, wind power and solar power. Exxon isn't. It only recently acknowledged publicly that - brace yourself - the world is warming. Beyond petroleum? At Exxon it's all petroleum.


Petroleum profit is at the base of every petroleum company. Heck yeah, as the price of a barrel of oil rises, their profits go up. And that is what EVERY oil company is about. Not just XOM.


Quote:
"Exxon Mobil is not a fun place to work," says Fadel Gheit, the Oppenheimer & Co. oil industry analyst widely considered Wall Street's best. "They're not in the fun business," he explains. "They're in the profit business."


All companies are in the profit business.


Quote:
Fossil fuels will remain the planet's No. 1 energy source through the 21st century, supplying 70% to 80% of the total by 2100, vs. about 90% today. Exxon forecasts only as far as 2030; in that year, it projects, primary energy sources such as coal, oil and gas will account for 81% of global demand.


This is true, as other alternatives are developed, and put into practice. Just one example are vehicles that have alternative means of supplying power, and don't rely on just oil/gas to operate. Of course, the costs of developing these fossil fuel resources will cost money, and the cost of the results, petroleum products, to the customer, will still increase.


Quote:
That's another reason Exxon isn't investing in alternative energy sources: They don't look big enough. For a company Exxon's size - No. 2 on the Fortune 500 - businesses of less than mammoth scale don't merit troubling with because they can't nudge the bottom line.


Right now, this may be true, but looking at the long view, they will be looking at more alternative ways of developing energy, and spending more on R&D to develop them. This may be finding more efficient ways to use petroleum, and recycling (as you mentioned using CO gas), but oil is a finite resource.


Quote:
Experience has shown that when oil prices rise, customers are slow to cut back. Alternative energy may sell better in a high-oil-price world, but Exxon wouldn't care, since it believes those sources are destined to be small-scale - and it would be making huge profits in its traditional business.


Right now, yes, alternatives are in the minority, but with the rapidly rising price of gas now, customers are and will be cutting back much more (I'm talking car drivers), however, there will always be large business that will use, and will have to use oil and gas to fuel their "fleets" of vehicles, including the US government. Non-government business will pass these costs on to their customers, while at the same time considering alternatives ways to ship their product, to save money.  


Quote:
on May 9th, 2008, 8:29pm, purpleydog wrote:
I have to commend them for at least trying to find alternative sources of energy.


When I said this, I was talking about all oil companies, not just XOM.



Quote:
Oil, or the ridiculous moniker "energy companies" are making the evil drug companies look good........nah. Nothing comes close to drug companies......anyway......

If you think energy companies have some itty bitty sense of responsibility other than making mount Everest-size piles of cash for the Dick Cheneys of the world; you need to visit earth real soon.

Charlie


No worries, Charlie. All oil companies are out to make as much as they can off oil. All I was saying is that they are at least trying. I only mentioned energy company, because some of them are calling themselves that now.

I find it interesting that people are challenging oil companies to come up with alternative forms of energy, when what they do is sell oil. To me, that seems almost contradictory. But some oil companies have taken on the challenge to try, so if they can/want to do it, more power to 'em.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 12th, 2008, 2:16am

on 05/11/08 at 15:27:59, purpleydog wrote:
Petroleum profit is at the base of every petroleum company. Heck yeah, as the price of a barrel of oil rises, their profits go up. And that is what EVERY oil company is about. Not just XOM.


My point was that XOM is in the profit business exclusively, not in the alternative energy business.  I wished to exclude them from any commending for alternative energy, it is not their interest.  



Quote:
oil is a finite resource.


This keeps getting repeated.
 



Quote:
Fossil fuels will remain the planet's No. 1 energy source through the 21st century, supplying 70% to 80% of the total by 2100, vs. about 90% today. Exxon forecasts only as far as 2030; in that year, it projects, primary energy sources such as coal, oil and gas will account for 81% of global demand.


Do you know why Exxon knows this?

70%- 80% of the total global demand for energy at what the population will be at 2100 is an unbelievable amount of fossil fuels, because that's how much there is.  Exxon is sure of it.  
 The total fossil fuel use since 1750, the Industrial Revolution, is estimated at 280 GtC (GtC = 1000 million metric tons of carbon).  If we use the total remaining reserves in the Earth, the resulting emissions would amount to 5000 GtC.  18 times more CO2 than emitted over the past 250 years.  Even with a substantial margin of error, problems will be pretty big before running out.
 


Quote:
I have to commend them for at least trying to find alternative sources of energy.

When I said this, I was talking about all oil companies, not just XOM.


I know you were.  I was singling out Exxon as not being into alternative energy.  All oil companies are not into alternative energy.



Quote:
I find it interesting that people are challenging oil companies to come up with alternative forms of energy, when what they do is sell oil.



Quote:
the resulting emissions would amount to 5000 GtC.  18 times more CO2 than emitted over the past 250 years.




 
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by deltadarlin on May 12th, 2008, 9:16am
What should we tell all the people who have investments in EOM, "sorry, but we want to take some/most/all of the profit you are making?".  

We tend to forget that there are a lot of *every day joes and janes* out there who are getting dividends off these investments.  Afraid there will be lots of folks who might take umbrage at that attitude, like the Teacher Retirement System of Texas and the Ohio Public Employees Retirement System, which have invested $1.6 billion and $1 billion in the company, respectively.

How should we rectify these problems such as massive profits by the oil companies?  Further government intervention?  Yeah right, as if things aren't screwed up enough already.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by pattik on May 12th, 2008, 9:40am

on 05/12/08 at 09:16:13, deltadarlin wrote:
We tend to forget that there are a lot of *every day joes and janes* out there who are getting dividends off these investments.  Afraid there will be lots of folks who might take umbrage at that attitude, like the Teacher Retirement System of Texas and the Ohio Public Employees Retirement System, which have invested $1.6 billion and $1 billion in the company, respectively.


Well said.  SOME people tend to forget the "public" part of publicly traded companies.  There are real human beings who own these companies as shareholders--it's not just some abstract money-making machine.  And some of them even take an interest and develop shareholder issues to be voted on during annual meetings.  With social security and medicare facing a real crisis, the profits from successfully run companies may be what makes the difference for many retirees between finishing out their lives in poverty or having enough to not be a burden on society or their children.  I'm betting that there are countless numbers of workers in this country who don't even know (or care) what the holdings are in their company's pension plans, as long as they see the bottom line continue to grow.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 12th, 2008, 12:04pm

on 05/12/08 at 09:16:13, deltadarlin wrote:
the Teacher Retirement System of Texas and the Ohio Public Employees Retirement System, which have invested $1.6 billion and $1 billion in the company, respectively.


Wasn't there another very lucrative company teachers were invested heavily in called Enron?  Didn't they take a great concern in society's future with great returns?



on 05/12/08 at 09:16:13, deltadarlin wrote:
How should we rectify these problems such as massive profits by the oil companies?  Further government intervention?  Yeah right, as if things aren't screwed up enough already.



How should we rectify these problems such as


Quote:
problems will be pretty big before running out.


Further government intervention?  Yeah right, as if things aren't screwed up enough already.




As Chris mentioned:


Quote:
I find it interesting that people are challenging oil companies to come up with alternative forms of energy, when what they do is sell oil.


Exxon sees selling oil to 2100 as very lucrative.  If they are planning and looking forward to it, protecting their huge profits means staying the course.





on 05/12/08 at 09:40:29, pattik wrote:
There are real human beings who own these companies as shareholders--it's not just some abstract money-making machine.  And some of them even take an interest and develop shareholder issues to be voted on during annual meetings.



Quote:
Exxon Mobile to Discuss Alternative Energy

May 30th, 2007  

Today the shareholders at Exxon Mobile meet to discuss the future of their investments into the development of alternative energy sources. Of course, company management does not think it to be a profitable endeavor and will discourage shareholders from proposing such investments, citing them as unprofitable and unnecessary.


In it's yearly proxy statement Exxon said "The corporation's traditional business areas remain critical and promise far greater value than renewables, which currently lack the scale and economic competitiveness of our core business opportunities". It makes sense that a company that specializes in fossil fuel production and distribution would make this statement, but the portion regarding the scale and economic competitiveness is somewhat true, unfortunately. The possibility that Exxon's shareholders could decide to invest in more R&D would be a monumental business move in the green direction, but still looks unlikely. It's just progressive that they're even bringing it up at the meeting!


Develop all you want if you think it matters.  People don't protest too much when handed profits.




on 05/12/08 at 09:40:29, pattik wrote:
With social security and medicare facing a real crisis, the profits from successfully run companies may be what makes the difference for many retirees between finishing out their lives in poverty or having enough to not be a burden on society or their children.


What kind of burden is left to society and your children?  Maybe no, not you, but a much bigger one.



Quote:
I'm betting that there are countless numbers of workers in this country who don't even know (or care) what the holdings are in their company's pension plans, as long as they see the bottom line continue to grow.


Good bet.  There are also companies who don't care about anything but the bottom line, I guess we should too, we won't be here to see the result.


Think about it this way.  What if you had a favorite restaurant, ate there everyday, and the owner only thought about the bottom line.  Behind the scenes he may hold hard and fast to the 15 second rule: if it falls on the floor for less than 15 seconds, it's still good.  There may be sanitation and health shortcuts taken.  But the food seems good, he serves a lot of people, complaints are addressed generously like an ambassador.  
 Eastern airlines took shortcuts in maintanance for the bottom line, they're gone.  Recently that concern came up again with American.
 The point is when the bottom line is above all else, something is not being addressed.  With Exxon, seeing continuation of fossil fuels into the next century means something is not being addressed, everyone's environment and future.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by alienspacebabe on May 12th, 2008, 2:03pm

on 05/08/08 at 09:27:11, Paul98 wrote:
The problem is that supply and demand are no longer the driving force setting the prices.




Demand for gasoline is relatively inelastic (indeed, almost *perfectly* inelastic): a change in price has little if any affect on changing demand.  

Why is it almost perfectly inelastic? THERE ARE NO SUBSTITUTES!

We'll buy it, whatever the price, because we *need* it.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Paul98 on May 12th, 2008, 3:05pm

on 05/12/08 at 14:03:59, alienspacebabe wrote:
Demand for gasoline is relatively inelastic (indeed, almost *perfectly* inelastic): a change in price has little if any affect on changing demand.  

Why is it almost perfectly inelastic? THERE ARE NO SUBSTITUTES!

We'll buy it, whatever the price, because we *need* it.


I would tend to disagree with  this because demand has begun to slow.  If gas were to go to $10/ gal you would see huge changes in lifestyle.  Relocating closer to work, demand for mastransit and the SUV craze would be a thing of the past.

-P.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 12th, 2008, 7:37pm

on 05/12/08 at 09:16:13, deltadarlin wrote:
How should we rectify these problems such as massive profits by the oil companies?  Further government intervention?  Yeah right, as if things aren't screwed up enough already.


Just something to think about when dealing with monster car and energy companies: These guys don't like to play fair. Seat belts: It took legislation to get them. Better fuel standards: Legislation. Air bags: Legislation.

I have a feeling that they might get a better deal and have better public relations if they didn't force Washington to get more involved. I don't want that either. Why does it always have to go so far? Some greed is good as they say but throw us a bone now and then.

Charlie http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/bat.gif
Title: lifeaftertRe: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by stevegeebe on May 12th, 2008, 9:25pm
Belly aching about Big Oil will achieve very little. I seriously doubt they will change because it is a matter of supply and demand.  

It's business and because of that little is done out of kindness.  

We need to focus on conservation.  We, as 300 million people, should start acting together to reduce our collective consumption. Take these realized savings channel it toward alternatives.  

And these ideas need to be in balance with the Planet.  You see what's happening with corn? Corn prices go up and all of the other grains follow. What product has allowed unforseen crop yeilds?  Oil.

The Moon moves the Oceans daily.  That's energy.  Maybe not much but we with reduced consumption it could make what we have last longer so our kids can make it through the transition. Allow them to make the things for the next phase.

When I think about the stored power in a gallon of gas, I'm truely amazed that it is as cheap as it is. Imagine pushing your car to work. Furthermore, imagine pushing it to 60 miles per hour. That's alot of energy.

Try to think of ways to reduce your own usage and implement them. See what happens. And if we all did it, just think...,gas prices may at least level out some.

I'm going to hit the O2 now.  I'm sure that oil had something to do with the fact that I have these E-tanks in my bedroom.

Coasting along,
Steve G


www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2008, 8:56am
Nonetheless, it would have been nice if GM didn't crush the successful electric cars they developed once the California Air Resource Board standards were rescinded after a whole passel of lawyers and paid "experts" bombed the hearings. Not an atom of compassion for the community.

Back to the Black Tower in Detroit and probably reprimands to their developers for the mistake. Can't have that.

Oh....I have about as much compassion for oil companies as I do, evil drug companies.

Charlies
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 13th, 2008, 6:06pm

Quote:
The Associated Press May 13, 2008, 11:59AM ET

Senate rejects GOP oil drilling plan

By H. JOSEF HEBERT

WASHINGTON

The Senate has rejected a Republican energy plan that calls for opening an Alaska wildlife refuge and some offshore waters to oil development.

by a vote of 56-42,


http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D90KRN4O1.htm
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 13th, 2008, 6:13pm
WASHINGTON — The Senate demanded almost unanimously on Tuesday that President Bush halt the shipment of oil to the country’s strategic petroleum reserve as long as oil prices remain high.

“Sticking oil underground is wrong at this point in time,” Senator Byron Dorgan, Democrat of North Dakota, said as he urged approval of a measure offered by Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic majority leader.

The Senate voted, 97 to 1, to tell President Bush to halt the shipments to the strategic reserve, the supply of just over 700 million barrels that is stored in salt caverns along the Gulf Coast. The reserve is meant to protect the United States against a disastrous sudden cutoff of oil supplies, like the Arab embargo of the 1970s.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=167_1210712118
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by monty on May 13th, 2008, 7:21pm
How bout that falling dollar?  Price of oil goes up 100% during the same time period as the dollar drops 40-50%.  Oil is sold in dollars - for many countries, the price of the raw material has not gone up so much because their currencies are worth more in dollar terms.  
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Paul98 on May 13th, 2008, 7:23pm

on 05/13/08 at 18:13:22, Jonny wrote:
WASHINGTON — The Senate demanded almost unanimously on Tuesday that President Bush halt the shipment of oil to the country’s strategic petroleum reserve as long as oil prices remain high.

“Sticking oil underground is wrong at this point in time,” Senator Byron Dorgan, Democrat of North Dakota, said as he urged approval of a measure offered by Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic majority leader.

The Senate voted, 97 to 1, to tell President Bush to halt the shipments to the strategic reserve, the supply of just over 700 million barrels that is stored in salt caverns along the Gulf Coast. The reserve is meant to protect the United States against a disastrous sudden cutoff of oil supplies, like the Arab embargo of the 1970s.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=167_1210712118


And if there was a crisis and the taps were shut off from the ME congress would be the first to scream of mismanageing the strategic reserve.  They are fucking idiots.  They have shut down any new exploration within the US and, made building any new refineris a nightmare for the corporations through pandering to the tree huggers and if they could USE the stratigic reserve they would.  You can bet they will never have to cook food over a dung fire but that is what they want the rest of the common folk to do.

How bout we start rendering some of the fat congressmen for their blubber and use it as a fuel source.  At least they would be good for something! ;;D

-P.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2008, 7:33pm
It's supposed to save only a few cents.....maybe 25 cents a gallon at the last report I heard. It's like trying to knock out an elephant with a peanut. I suppose there are some goofs that think it's a good idea. Incredibly, Bush doesn't like it either. Knock me over with a feather.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 13th, 2008, 8:27pm

Quote:
Congress urges Bush to halt oil reserve shipments


Bush has steadfastly refused to halt shipments of about 70,000 barrel barrels of oil a day into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, a system of salt caverns on the Gulf coast. The reserve, created to respond to major oil supply disruptions, holds 701 million barrels and is at 97 percent of capacity.

The Strategic Petroleum Reserve was created in the 1970s as a precaution against major interruptions of oil supplies. Today at 701 million barrels it has enough to replace two months of oil imports.

Senators said the stockpile is big enough to meet any emergency.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_go_co/congress_energy
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by jimmers on May 13th, 2008, 8:50pm
Republican President + Democratic Congress = Fucking nothing!

Democratic Congress + Republican Congress = Fucking nothing!

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

But hey, at least we have something to argue about for the next 1000 years.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by purpleydog on May 14th, 2008, 6:09pm
I was in Indianapolis yesterday and today on business. Turned on the news this morning, gas had jumped up 20 cents/gallon overnight. They (the news) were at a discount gas station. It was $3.959 (why do they put that 9/10ths of a cent in there anyway? Just to make you think you are getting it cheaper?)

I was driving our company truck, so I didn't really notice as I drove there, but on the way back, it was $3.95 everywhere, until I got home. Then, I filled up the truck, it was $3.83(9) here.

I'm really not surprised, but I certainly gulped when I saw that.

I drove to Peoria and back on Monday, gas was $3.89 there, so I waited to get home. It was $3.85 here. It was $3.79 when I left town. I put $50.00 in my tank, and it filled it to just over half full.

So much for driving vacations this year for a lot of people.

One thing is for sure, I'm taking the actual fuel and maintenance deductions next year, not just mileage.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Brew on May 14th, 2008, 7:36pm

on 05/14/08 at 18:09:54, purpleydog wrote:
So much for driving vacations this year for a lot of people.

Bingo.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 14th, 2008, 9:07pm
Lots of people from my state planning Adirondack vacations rather than running around all over the country looking for stuff to do. It's like the old days when I was a kid.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Marc on May 15th, 2008, 1:33am
I don't post here anymore, so I'm sure that most of won't even remember me.

I just had to comment about how some things have not changed much in the 9 years since I found this place.  Jonny's posts like this still get the same kinds of responses from some of the same people, but now I see even more socialists coming out with even more twisted statistics.

It's becoming the new America. During part of the 50's and 60's Socialists & Communists publicly proclaimed what they were.

Now they don't - because they don’t even realize what they are.

Respectfully,
Marc
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 15th, 2008, 2:08am

on 05/15/08 at 01:33:26, Marc wrote:
...they don't even realize what they are.


Another Joseph McCarthy would fix all that nonsense.   ;)
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Marc on May 15th, 2008, 2:12am

on 05/15/08 at 02:08:00, Kevin_M wrote:
Another Joseph McCarthy would fix all that nonsense.   ;)


Lessons learned from mistakes made in the past are of extreme value.

I personally feel that open, non-biased education of facts is the answer - but it ain't happening........
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 15th, 2008, 2:24am

on 05/15/08 at 02:12:08, Marc wrote:
I personally feel that open, non-biased education of facts is the answer - but it ain't happening........


Facts about money, politics, or energy?



"The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bullshit." -- Lars-Erik Nelson, political columnist
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Marc on May 15th, 2008, 2:52am
Therein lies the problem – they are one and the same.

I will make a parting comment that the single biggest single problem in this country today is the general media trying to shape policy in lieu of digging deep to report facts.  
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Brew on May 15th, 2008, 7:25am

on 05/15/08 at 01:33:26, Marc wrote:
I don't post here anymore, so I'm sure that most of won't even remember me.

With only 11 posts, how could we?

Marc, we hardly knew ye.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by stevegeebe on May 15th, 2008, 7:52am
Its time to start drilling off Morro Bay CA...?

Steve G
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 15th, 2008, 9:52pm

on 05/15/08 at 01:33:26, Marc wrote:
now I see even more socialists coming out with even more twisted statistics.

It's becoming the new America. During part of the 50's and 60's Socialists & Communists publicly proclaimed what they were.

Now they don't - because they don’t even realize what they are.


Actually while I was watching all the commie, labor, and Kefauver hearings of the 50s, Socialists and Communists had to lie low or lose their seats, jobs and even homes now and then. Today, liberal Republicans are kicked out of Congress by the right to lifers and far far right of the GOP. It's a bloody mess and brings on the likes of George Bush who has finally found something he can do: Elect Democrats.

We need some of that "creeping socialism" in health care though because it's become a nightmare of greedy practitioners and drug purveying corporate interests that have little if any interest in the health of the country if they get sick. Insurance companies are only interested in selling coverage to healthy people.  They are happy to let the government take over when it begins to affect their bottom lines. Fine with me but it needs not to be like Medicare Part B which is a gold mine for the drug companies. It should be something our elderly shouldn't have to go to court to obtain. What we have now is embarrassing

I make no apologies for this. I don't shoot myself in the foot at the voting booth.

Must be that clusters have something to do with conservative politics. Tons of 'em here

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Marc on May 15th, 2008, 10:38pm

on 05/15/08 at 21:52:51, Charlie wrote:
We need some of that "creeping socialism" in health care though because it's become a nightmare of greedy practitioners and drug purveying corporate interests that have little if any
Charlie


Charlie,

While I may disagree with your politics, I applaud your honesty in identifying your position with this statement.  That was the whole point of my post. This is still a free country and people are allowed to have differing opinions.

I was only pointing out that so many people don't realize that they are advocating Socialism. You do realize it.

Respectfully,

Marc
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Charlie on May 15th, 2008, 11:33pm
It's similar to Theodore Roosevelt's breaking up of Standard Oil. It ain't all bad. Richard Nixon had some very good ideas on socialized medicine. It's the one area where it seems the only answer.

It works in almost every western country. The conservatives in Switzerland call refusing affordable health care to everyone a scandal.

Charlie
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 16th, 2008, 12:35am
Marc, I think i recognize your pic, but i dont think I remember you.
Anyway, can you clarify what, in this thread, you are referring to as socialism or communism?  I'm not sure i follow what you are saying, but i am interested in hearing your opinion.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Angie on May 16th, 2008, 8:49am
In our community we rely on Tourism for the summer months. With gas prices soaring, today $1.25 Liter, our tourism will drop. Here in Muskoka we have a lot of American tourists that come every summer. They will probably not come this year due to gas prices and our higher dollar.

Which means lesser sales in retail which will mean lesser salary dollars, we could have lay offs this year. That sucks.

Hoping things will get better soon but I don't think it will for a while.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Kevin_M on May 16th, 2008, 11:46am

on 05/15/08 at 23:33:26, Charlie wrote:
It's similar to Theodore Roosevelt's breaking up of Standard Oil.


Don't know about it being socialism, but the alternatives looked even uglier.

Teddy was challenged by the greatest economic powers in the country who viewed him as a threat to their ownership of the nation.  Previously outlawed by the Sherman Antitrust Act but forgotten in practice, he wasn't going to be quiet about illegal monopoly power.

Teddy was a great admirer of Lincoln and would intervene as arbitrator before violence erupted.  He was also a Nobel peace prize laureate, America's first to win any Nobel.

A big test in 1902 was the Northern Securites Company, a large combination of businesses that formed a trust.  (A trust was defined at the time as a vertically integrated set of businesses that controlled all aspects of production and distribution.)  Northern was in restraint of trade and illegal, and it's stock estimated to be watered down by one-third in the merger.  

J. P. Morgan, with a bit of "business as usual" arrogance said that if anything is wrong, his man and Roosevelt ought to meet and fix it.  What incensed Teddy was the suggesting of a behind-the-scenes negotiation.  A New York journalist kind of captured the moment:  "Wall Street is paralyzed at the thought that a President of the United States would sink so low as to try to enforce the law."  The Supreme Court agreed with Teddy.

Railroads were favoring insiders in setting rates and gave secret rebates to friends.  A coalition of Dems and Reps together, unheard of in past years, were gathered by Teddy for the Hepburn Act in 1906 and an Elkins Act along the way prohibiting rebates.  

Back to 1902, coal needed the attention of Teddy's role as arbiter in clashes.  Miners earned $560 a year (about $7800 today) and docked for medical expenses.  Factories and mines were dangerous and once injured, simply out of their 12 hour work days, six days a week to a situation of despair.  Miners got their 10% raise, price of coal went up 10%.
 
If any of this looks like socialism, here was the argument from George F. Baer, the chief spokesman for the owners who said the miners are not suffering.  "The rights and all interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not only by the labor agitators -- but by the Christian men to whom God in His infinite wisdom has given the control of property interests of the country."

What is that called?
 


info from a bio of Teddy's personal letters.





Quote:
"The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bullshit." -- Lars-Erik Nelson, political columnist
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by purpleydog on May 16th, 2008, 5:15pm
Hey Marc, how's it going? Long time no see.




on 05/15/08 at 02:52:51, Marc wrote:
I will make a parting comment that the single biggest single problem in this country today is the general media trying to shape policy in lieu of digging deep to report facts.  


Ain't that the truth.

I said it before and I'll say it again...

Do you believe everything you read (and see)?


Just because it's reported by the media doesn't make it so.

You can spin anything to get the results you want..
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 16th, 2008, 7:04pm
You gotta do what ya gotta do, i guess.  ;)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=456_1210956582

Hey, Marc.....Where the fuck you been?  [smiley=grin2.gif]
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by fubar on May 16th, 2008, 7:39pm

on 05/16/08 at 00:35:43, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
can you clarify what, in this thread, you are referring to as socialism or communism?  


He was talking about you, ya commie

j/k   :P, I meant socialist.

:P
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 16th, 2008, 7:40pm

on 05/16/08 at 19:39:00, fubar wrote:
He was talking about you, ya commie

j/k   :P, I meant socialist.

:P


LMMFAO....Shawn!  ;;D
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by fubar on May 16th, 2008, 7:41pm

on 05/16/08 at 19:04:39, Jonny wrote:
You gotta do what ya gotta do, i guess.  ;)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=456_1210956582

Hey, Marc.....Where the fuck you been?  [smiley=grin2.gif]



My truck will run on bio-deisel, so I just bleed directly into the tank.  After a night out on the town, my truck runs like an alcohol burning funny car.  Yee haw.
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by Jonny on May 16th, 2008, 8:40pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc6_1210974259
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by outofcommission on May 17th, 2008, 12:16pm
well i'll throw this into the mix. we're not going to burn anything else until the oil companies have cornered the market. man, these days we can clone sheep, we can take d.n.a from a cigarette butt and place people at the scene of a crime, we can carbon date rocks to find out  what happened on the earth a million fricking years ago and the best thing we've come with is gasoline and diesel fuel. lets face it any sensible and logical answer to our fuel problems is not a profitable one.
    ethanol is a great idea. let mix it with gasoline and they can pay the same price for it and get less millage. lets have Orval Redenbacher and frito-lay competing with Exxon Mobile and British Petroleum over corn and soy beans. l i could be wrong.

that being said i leave you with the future of truckdriving ;;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmf-HCCZYOg
Title: Re: Its time to start drilling in ANWAR!
Post by outofcommission on May 17th, 2008, 12:26pm
ah what the hell. heres another one of my favorites. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcW-T-thdoE&feature=related


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