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floridian
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Fresh Research - Warfarin
« on: Dec 29th, 2005, 12:31pm »
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More reports that anti-coagulants can be effective.  
 
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J Headache Pain. 2005 Oct;6(5):417-9. Epub 2005 Aug 1.  
 
    Warfarin as a therapeutic option in the control of chronic cluster headache: a report of three cases.
 
    Kowacs PA, Piovesan EJ, de Campos RW, Lange MC, Zetola VF, Werneck LC.
 
    Headache Section, Neurology Division, Internal Medicine Department, Hospital de Clinicas, Universidade Federal do Parana, Rua General Carneiro 181/1236, 80060-900, Curitiba, Brazil, cefaleia@hc.ufpr.br.
 
    Chronic cluster headache remains refractory to medical therapy in at least 30% of those who suffer from this condition. The lack of alternative medical therapies that are as effective as, or more effective than, lithium carbonate makes new therapies necessary for this highly disabling condition. Based on a previous report, we gave oral anticoagulants to three patients with chronic cluster headache. Two of them remained cluster headachefree while taking warfarin. In the third patient, the use of warfarin for three weeks initially increased the frequency and intensity of cluster headache attacks but subsequently induced a prolonged remission. In spite of the paucity of data available, oral anticoagulation appears to be a promising therapy for chronic cluster headache.
 
    PMID: 16362716 [PubMed - in process]
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Jonny
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #1 on: Dec 29th, 2005, 3:07pm »
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It is up to YOU to educate yourself and then help your doctor plan your treatment. If you just sit down in front of your doctor and say "make me better" you are setting yourself up for a great deal of pain.

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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #2 on: Dec 29th, 2005, 3:32pm »
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If you ever wondered why a cluster busthead hurts where it does-Jonny just showed you the picture.
 
Thanks man!
 
Jon
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #3 on: Dec 29th, 2005, 4:38pm »
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Johnny, your picture, is that an "anatomically correct" picture of the nerves that hurt with a cluster headache? Or is it just a depiction of yours? Cuz i swear i could have drawn those lines!!!!
Guiseppi
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #4 on: Dec 29th, 2005, 5:02pm »
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on Dec 29th, 2005, 4:38pm, Guiseppi wrote:
Jonny, your picture, is that an "anatomically correct" picture of the nerves that hurt with a cluster headache?

 
I dont know, I stole it off a CH website....as I did this next one (The large orange nerve that turns yellow is the CH pain nerve)
 
 

 
Edit to add:....Sorry Flo, didnt mean to hijack your thread, Man!
« Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2005, 5:06pm by Jonny » IP Logged

It is up to YOU to educate yourself and then help your doctor plan your treatment. If you just sit down in front of your doctor and say "make me better" you are setting yourself up for a great deal of pain.

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floridian
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #5 on: Dec 29th, 2005, 8:52pm »
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on Dec 29th, 2005, 5:02pm, Jonny wrote:

 
Edit to add:....Sorry Flo, didnt mean to hijack your thread, Man!

 
My thread hijacked by some guy flying the Jolly Roger!! Betcha celebrate September 19th every day, Jonny.  Arrgh!
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #6 on: Dec 31st, 2005, 12:44am »
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Anymore info on using this? I wanna be the first gunea pig here to try it...I am at the end of my rope....something has to start working again for me soon....Let me know if you know where i can find out anymore info for my neuro...i think he might try it on me...smiles,nancyc
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #7 on: Dec 31st, 2005, 1:11am »
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http://www.hughes-syndrome.org/stickyblood_headache.pdf
 
http://health.yahoo.com/ate/drweil/alldaily/2004/03/20040330
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #8 on: Dec 31st, 2005, 2:33am »
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on Dec 29th, 2005, 12:31pm, floridian wrote:
More reports that anti-coagulants can be effective.  
 

 
Sounds interesting (as does most cluster research) but too many things seem to me to fly in the face of this being effective. It could be possible that some other things that were related to this study might be more responsible than the warfarin itself.  
Not sure what other meds they took these three people off of to go onto warfarin, if any. Maybe they had them change something else. Maybe they stayed on their regular meds and the addition of warfarin made a difference. I'd have to see the entire study report to see what other possibilities might pop into this tired brain.
 
1. People that go into the hospital for operations have reported their clusters stopped after the operation. They would not have been operated on if they were on warfarin. They want your blood as "sticky" as possible. (but...maybe it was a blood loss and the transfusion helped??? How "thick" is plasma or whatever they use?)
 
2. Women would probably report less cluster activity or even a cessation, during their menstrual cycles, I think, due to the drop in iron levels? Ladies?
 
3. Do any women here see an increase in cluster activity if/when you go onto iron suppliments? Yes? No?
 
2a/3a. Maybe this explains why women "used" to be far outnumbered by men with clusters? Maybe the reason women are unfortunately catching up, is better diet and suppliments and iron enriched foods/vitamins?
 
4. Many of us, if not all, try to use aspirin at some early stage.....does it help, even at very high doses?
 
5. Many people go on warfarin at somepoint. How many have reported a dramatic decrease in clusters, as this report would suggest? Enough that there wouldn't be a "paucity of data available?"
 
6. Doesn't alcohol thin the blood?
 
7. If this were true, I have a sinking feeling that a similar treatment would have survived over the last couple hundred years........leeches.  
 
You could probably try this at home.....pick up some leeches at the bait shop and put them on your temple at the first sign of an attack. If they don't work you can still use them for walleye fishing Wink
 
Still, I believe that every bit of study into clusters is a good thing and helps lead to answers, and more questions, and more answers.
Who knows, maybe this alters blood flow to the brain...alters 02 levels to the brain, alters the operation of the hypothalamus, alters...???
 
Bobw
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #9 on: Dec 31st, 2005, 3:38am »
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on Dec 31st, 2005, 2:33am, Pinkfloyd wrote:

 
1. People that go into the hospital for operations have reported their clusters stopped after the operation. They would not have been operated on if they were on warfarin. They want your blood as "sticky" as possible. (but...maybe it was a blood loss and the transfusion helped??? How "thick" is plasma or whatever they use?) (I have been diagnosed with sticky blood, love anesthetic, no significant changes in CH)
2. Women would probably report less cluster activity or even a cessation, during their menstrual cycles, I think, due to the drop in iron levels? Ladies? (I don't know and can't remember, sorry, had a hysterectomy)
3. Do any women here see an increase in cluster activity if/when you go onto iron supplements? Yes? No? (Yes, I stay as far away from Iron and B vitamins during cycle, it increase the intensity of my CH)
2a/3a. Maybe this explains why women "used" to be far outnumbered by men with clusters? Maybe the reason women are unfortunately catching up, is better diet and supplements and iron enriched foods/vitamins?(I'm a farm girl and was raised to supplement my diet during that time of the month with eating raw liver, always ate my veg, like a good girl but still became anemic)
4. Many of us, if not all, try to use aspirin at some early stage.....does it help, even at very high doses? (Was prescribed aspirin/disprin by my doc for sticky blood but when used in cycle aggravated the CH)
5. Many people go on warfarin at somepoint. How many have reported a dramatic decrease in clusters, as this report would suggest? Enough that there wouldn't be a "paucity of data available?"
 
6. Doesn't alcohol thin the blood? (Same argument I had with my doc, he said I'll have to drink a bottle of Whiskey a day to get the desired results - yea and I would have been plastered, but alcohol is a trigger for me)
7. If this were true, I have a sinking feeling that a similar treatment would have survived over the last couple hundred years........leeches. (I have tried blood letting, it seemed to work but you need to get rid of about 4 pints of blood to get the desired result and it is not worth nearly killing yourself for in the process - blood is messy - leeches sucks!)
You could probably try this at home.....pick up some leeches at the bait shop and put them on your temple at the first sign of an attack. If they don't work you can still use them for walleye fishing Wink
 
Still, I believe that every bit of study into clusters is a good thing and helps lead to answers, and more questions, and more answers. (My firm believe too, try at least everything once, ask as many questions - however bazar -  and if you can't find the answer or kill yourself in the process, just keep on trying, the solution is out there somewhere for someone to stumble upon.)
Who knows, maybe this alters blood flow to the brain...alters 02 levels to the brain, alters the operation of the hypothalamus, alters...??? (CH definately alters people, that's for sure Grin)
Bobw
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #10 on: Dec 31st, 2005, 2:59pm »
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hardest thing about research is that we have no definite cause and effect....so we can't say this helped relieve the pain...the beast could have just gotten bored withus and walked away....
Our headache journals have to be taken into account during any trial....and the trials would have to last beyond a few months to show any  "altered" results.
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #11 on: Jan 1st, 2006, 4:03pm »
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Related?
 
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00071903?order=4
 
Bobw
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #12 on: Jan 1st, 2006, 4:25pm »
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on Dec 31st, 2005, 2:33am, Pinkfloyd wrote:

2. Women would probably report less cluster activity or even a cessation, during their menstrual cycles, I think, due to the drop in iron levels? Ladies?

Nope.  My CH's increase in severity and frequency during my time of the month.  Of course, not a whole lot of blood is lost during menstration, but the endometrium lining is shed.  I would think it'd be more prudent if that blood was more centered around the heart or brain?
 
Quote:
3. Do any women here see an increase in cluster activity if/when you go onto iron suppliments? Yes? No?

Don't know, haven't tried it.
 
Quote:
2a/3a. Maybe this explains why women "used" to be far outnumbered by men with clusters? Maybe the reason women are unfortunately catching up, is better diet and suppliments and iron enriched foods/vitamins?

I think I'm confused by this question.  Do you mean to say that because women are taking better supplements and eating better, that we are getting diagnosed more correctly?? Huh
 
Quote:
4. Many of us, if not all, try to use aspirin at some early stage.....does it help, even at very high doses?

The last time I chugged asprin was years ago, so I don't remember if it helped or not....  
 
modified to add stuff
« Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2006, 5:01pm by Melissa » IP Logged
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #13 on: Jan 1st, 2006, 4:33pm »
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Been using Marevan"Warfarin"for my heart since 2001.Have to admitt that my ch-story have improved radically to the better since that
 
Only drawback is that you need to take a bloodtest every mnth to check the level in your blood
 
 
 
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #14 on: Jan 1st, 2006, 5:06pm »
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on Jan 1st, 2006, 4:25pm, Melissa wrote:

 
I think I'm confused by this question.  Do you mean to say that because women are taking better supplements and eating better, that we are getting diagnosed more correctly?? Huh
 

 
No. My question would ask: Are women experiencing more cluster headaches now, because they are eating better, taking suppliments and eating iron enriched foods, and hence, suffer less from anemia?
Some people (not me) think that we of the western world put far too much iron in our diets, causing many problems. This notion is often put out by vegetarians citing red meat as a principle cause.
I believe there is evidence that clusters are less common the closer you get to the equator. Can this be attributed to diet differences rather than the actual location?
I don't believe anemia to be a cluster treatment, so don't anyone become vegans on my account Wink
 
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #15 on: Jan 1st, 2006, 5:20pm »
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on Jan 1st, 2006, 5:06pm, Pinkfloyd wrote:

 
No. My question would ask: Are women experiencing more cluster headaches now, because they are eating better, taking suppliments and eating iron enriched foods, and hence, suffer less from anemia?

Ohhhhh, so that's what you meant.  Sometimes it's got to be spelled out for me. Embarassed  Anyway, that could be a possibility.  Of course, with myself, I get my iron from meat products, yet I suffer from a lack of iron from time to time.  Really wouldn't be able to tell the effect with me anyway seeing I'm episodic.
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Re: Fresh Research - Warfarin
« Reply #16 on: Jan 2nd, 2006, 7:10pm »
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on Dec 31st, 2005, 2:33am, Pinkfloyd wrote:

 
1. People that go into the hospital for operations have reported their clusters stopped after the operation. They would not have been operated on if they were on warfarin. They want your blood as "sticky" as possible. (but...maybe it was a blood loss and the transfusion helped??? How "thick" is plasma or whatever they use?)

Some operations (like DJ's surgery for moya-moya disease), but not sure that surgery in general helps.  Mopar had blood clots in the leg, and improved somewhat on blood thinners.  People who go in to the hospital for strokes and blood clots usually get blood thinners, sometimes get surgery.  
 
Quote:

2. Women would probably report less cluster activity or even a cessation, during their menstrual cycles, I think, due to the drop in iron levels?  
 
3. Do any women here see an increase in cluster activity if/when you go onto iron suppliments? Yes? No?
 
2a/3a. Maybe this explains why women "used" to be far outnumbered by men with clusters? Maybe the reason women are unfortunately catching up, is better diet and suppliments and iron enriched foods/vitamins?

 
Iron boosts red blood cell counts. Not sure what it does for white blood cell counts or platelet aggregating factor.  The monthly loss of blood may be one reason why women get fewer heart attacks - iron is an oxidative catalyst, and it stimulates the oxidation of cholesterol, which makes it more likely to clump up on the arteries. But that is a fairly long term process.  
 
Quote:

4. Many of us, if not all, try to use aspirin at some early stage.....does it help, even at very high doses?

Or more importantly, does chronic use of aspirin help?  Not sure if there might be some preventive effect - not saying there is a preventive effect, only that it hasn't been tested.  Short term, no effect; long term, ??  Aspirin can reduce the production of some mast cells (the beasts that dump histamine and are locally involved with the inflammation of the trigeminal nerve.  
 
According to the research, clusterheads have 'complex abnormalities' in how their blood clots; it is over-responsive to some factors, under responsive to others. Aspirin thins the blood by a particular mechanism which may or may not be of use in treating clusters.  
 
Quote:

6. Doesn't alcohol thin the blood?
[quote]
Among other things. It also triggers, maybe by stimulating the aryl hydrocarbon receptor, or increasing nitric oxide.  
 
[quote]
7. If this were true, I have a sinking feeling that a similar treatment would have survived over the last couple hundred years........leeches.  
[quote]
Don't sell my little friends short. Leeches are making a comeback for microsurgery - they can keep the blood flowing in a reattached finger so that the skin doesn't die and fall off.  But the ick factor is pretty high, as it is for maggots (which have been proven a very good way to remove dead tissue from wounds - the little larvae only eat dead tissue, they ignore healthy flesh.  
You could probably try this at home.....pick up some leeches at the bait shop and put them on your temple at the first sign of an attack. If they don't work you can still use them for walleye fishing Wink
 
[quote]
Still, I believe that every bit of study into clusters is a good thing and helps lead to answers, and more questions, and more answers.
Who knows, maybe this alters blood flow to the brain...alters 02 levels to the brain, alters the operation of the hypothalamus, alters...???

 
I think that is the likely route of any effect that anticoagulants may have - when oxygen drops too low, it triggers a chain reaction that can trigger CH.  
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