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Topic: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin (Read 526 times) |
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maria9
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CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« on: Oct 11th, 2003, 6:18pm » |
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CH is thought to result from a defect in the hypothalamus which results in a faulty serotonin- regulating mechanism. During a CH cycle, CH-ers tend to have lower level of serotonin. Lower levels of serotonin cause the vessels to dilate causing the CH pain. Most episodic CH'ers typically have nightly attacks which are triggered by the Rapid Eye Movement (REM) stage of sleep. During REM sleep, the neurotransmitters norepinephrine, serotonin, and histamine stop discharging completely, and the brain activity is dominated by neurons using another chemical acetylcholine. The reason the noreadrenaline and serotonin cease during REM sleep is to disable movement of the body and to reduce awareness of the environment as well as to rest or regenerate their transmitters. While serotonin levels in the brain are practically at zero during REM sleep, having a cluster attack results in an increase in serotonin levels. Sleep deprivation is often a result of cluster headaches at the peak of the cycle as I for one would have a CH every two hours at night, presumably each time just as I was entering the REM stage of sleep. I am assuming I never got to reap the rewards of the benefits of the REM sleep. Interestingly enough, one of the benefits of sleep deprivation is an increase in serotonin levels in the brain. Sleep deprivation has an anti-depressant effect; it mimics the SSRIs causing a net increase in the amount of serotonin available to recipient cells. Given these facts, I hope I have them right, here are my questions:
Is CH a "natural" method (albeit exceedingly cruel!) the hypothalamus uses in order to try to raise levels of serotonin or to restore the serotonin-regulating mechanism? Given that CH's and sleep deprivation both raise levels of serotonin.
There have been several postings here on this board and the UK site that report a longer cycle when put on preventatives such as Verapamil. Although few report 100% success in totally eradicating CH attacks the numbers of attacks lessen. I'm assuming this medicated group is not getting the every 2 hour nightly visit as I was during the peak of the cycle. Do you think interfering with the natural course of the cycle with the peak and resultant sleep deprivation can cause the cycle to take longer than normal to abate?
Since research has also reported that acetylcholine levels are also low in CH'ers, does this mean that during REM sleep when serotonin levels are close to non-existence, that the acetylcholine is not doing it's job in terms of maintaining smooth muscle reactivity, e.g. vessel dilation?
Curious to hear your responses,
Maria
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| « Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2003, 8:00am by maria9 » |
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Brew
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #1 on: Oct 11th, 2003, 8:47pm » |
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Last year I was diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea. The sleep study I had done indicated that I was waking up an average of 32 times an hour in order to initiate breathing again. As a result, I was never getting any REM sleep - no wonder I was dragging my @$$ around for years!
Anyhow, I made the connection in my head - what if this is it? What if the cluster headaches go away once I get my Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) machine? I wasn't in cycle when I got it in January, so I had to wait. Sure as hell, I got slammed with another cycle in March and have had two more since then.
For me, there seems to be no connection between the two. I'm sleeping MUCH better, but am still being visited by the beast (no more or less frequently than before the CPAP).
Bill
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eyes_afire
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #2 on: Oct 11th, 2003, 9:14pm » |
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Well Maria, this is a very interesting thread you've started. I'm very interested in CH, sleep, and acetylcholine seeing as how SSRI's don't do a damn thing for many here (myself included) and that acetylcholine works in balance with serotonin. But I haven't heard any recent reports of success with Arricept either. But maybe not enough people are trying it. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here.
--- Steve (very tired)
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ave
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #3 on: Oct 12th, 2003, 4:37am » |
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My mite on sleep...
Since I was a little girl I have had "trouble" sleeping.
There is a pattern that seems to come in waves, when I can not fall asleep (no, not because of problems or anxiety or anything) and will get up after an hour, to sit downstairs, read a book, often have a cup of coffee!!!, and only after that I can find it in me to sleep again.
But sometimes it just will not happen. I'd just sit the night out.
This pattern was already in place long BEFORE I had clusters. Nowadays I am slowly discovering that such a wave of sleeplessness is a warning of the beast's arrival. (And although thanks to shrooms his attacks are not painful any longer, I still can feel it when he visits.)
I also have read post from people "blaming" irregular sleeping habits as a trigger for clusters. I have the feeling that it is the other way round. It is maybe the onset of a cluster episode that causes sleepnessless. Or to be even more precise, the onset of a cluster episode seems for me to be accompanied by irregular sleeping.
This is like the discovery thee Dutch cluster guru, Dr. Ferrari, mentioned, offhand, in his maiden lecture: it is not chocolate that is a trigger for migraines. It is the physical make up of somebody about to have a migraine, that cause a craving for chocolate.
Maybe - maybe we have triggers all ass-backwards.
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sandie99
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #4 on: Oct 12th, 2003, 4:47am » |
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Maria,
this was very interesting information indeed! 
I have been wondering how serotonin is involved with ch. A friend of mine suffers from depression and she mentioned that depressed people often have low levels of serotonin. I wonder, if this is one of the reasons why also us, ch-folkes, get depressed? 
Best wishes & pain-free days,
sandie99 
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maria9
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #5 on: Oct 12th, 2003, 5:25pm » |
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Thanks for all for replies.
Bill,
There are a number of studies confirming that a high percentage of CH'ers also suffer from sleep apnea. While sleep apnea may possibly trigger or aggravate a CH during susceptible periods (cluster cycles), I don't believe anyone has reported success in "curing" their CH's after undergoing the continuous positive air pressure (CPAP) to treat the sleep apnea.
Sandie,
I think any of us could be diagnosed as depressed if asked about the following during a CH cycle: changes in sleeping patterns; weight change, appetite change; loss of energy; difficulty concentrating; feelings of worthlessness; loss of interest in most daily activities; being in a depressed mood for at least 2 weeks; and the most horrifying one for our condition - thoughts of suicide.
Maria
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Brew
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #6 on: Oct 12th, 2003, 6:49pm » |
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on Oct 12th, 2003, 5:25pm, maria9 wrote:| ...While sleep apnea may possibly trigger or aggravate a CH during susceptible periods (cluster cycles), I don't believe anyone has reported success in "curing" their CH's after undergoing the continuous positive air pressure (CPAP) to treat the sleep apnea. |
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Sux, don't it? I was really hoping there'd be a connection, but as I found out, there isn't.
Oh, well - could be worse. I could have a sharp stick in my eye. Wait a minute, that's what it feels like, so what's the difference? 
Bill
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maria9
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #7 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 8:09pm » |
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Hey Bill. could be worse, better than a poke in the stick with a sharp eye.
Sorry, couldn't resist, Maria
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hdbngr
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #9 on: Oct 14th, 2003, 1:58pm » |
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Interesting. I think it is that old chicken and the egg argument of which came first: headaches and difficulty sleeping? or difficulty sleeping causes headaches? Either way, we are one sleep deprived bunch. I know I used to sleep so well it was a joke among my family. Since CH arrived on the scene, that has stopped. I'm scared to go to sleep.
A while back I read about a study done at University of Michigan that investigated this in detail.
The links can be found at:
http://www.headachepainfree.com/clusterha.html
and
http://www.respiratoryreviews.com/sep00/rr_sep00_clusterheadaches.html
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Bob P
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #10 on: Oct 14th, 2003, 2:34pm » |
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I've always assumed our poor sleeping was due to our lack of an increase in melatonin at night:
http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/medications/melatonin.htm
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maria9
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #11 on: Oct 14th, 2003, 7:25pm » |
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Hey all,
One of my questions is still why are those vessels in the head so ready to dilate and cause all this unneccessary pain as a result of a fairly innocuous event, say a half a glass of wine, whereas out of cycle I can have as many glasses as I would like?
Maria
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BobG
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #12 on: Oct 14th, 2003, 9:11pm » |
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Quote:| One of my questions is still why are those vessels in the head so ready to dilate and cause all this unneccessary pain |
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That's a question we'd all like an answer to.
Something to do with a faulty hypothalamus gland that you inherited from your ancestors.
It’s sorta like diarrhea, it runs in your genes.
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maria9
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #13 on: Oct 14th, 2003, 9:22pm » |
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Hey Bob G., just provide an answer to my questions and quit taking so many trips to Vegas. OK? I need to get some of my questions resolved before I meet my maker. Maria
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"All you have to do is the best you can. A high wave comes, a crashing wave comes, a gentle swell follows. Whatever comes, stay in your boat. And enjoy the ride. And row." Peggy Noonan
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BobG
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Re: CH, sleep deprivation and serotonin
« Reply #14 on: Oct 14th, 2003, 10:12pm » |
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LOL......Vegas will make a person goofy 
OK, my answer to your question is
Heck if I know. 
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