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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2005 >> LSA vs. other alternatives
        
(Message started by: Peppermint on Jun 4^th, 2005, 11:53pm)

Title: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Peppermint on Jun 4^th, 2005, 11:53pm

Could someone(s) please explain (maybe Floridian?) what LSA is, what it is "usually" used for (sounds like a recreational thing), how folks here stumbled across it and what the similarities and differences are between that and the other alternative treatments (kudzu & psilocibin).

I have read through a bunch of threads but its pretty cryptic. Just trying to get some info here, if you could help out - it would be much appreciated.

If its a touchy subject, maybe you can point me in the right direction where I can read a comparison or something?

Thanks, and PFDANs,
Pep :-*

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by plazticsoul on Jun 5^th, 2005, 1:02am

LSA is somewhat molecularly similar to LSD or shrooms, from what I understand. But you have to consume an insane amount of seeds for a psychadelic experience, or "trip". Yes it's abused recreationally, which is why it's having a tough time even being considered as a CH treatment. Most seeds will even say, "Not for human consumption" because of the abuse potential, and also if you don't scrape the fuzzy coating off the seeds, you will consume trace amounts of cyanide. Scrape them down good, chop the seeds up whole and strain through a tea bag or coffee filter into hot water for 10-15 minutes. Or you can just discard the shell entirely and eat the insides.

I would recommend about 5 or 6 but no more than that or you'll be feeling strange. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing depends on the person's mindset and emotional stability.

I took some seeds tonight for the first time, and it's nice and pleasant at a light dosage. I'm having shadows right now, but it's supposed to be long-lasting so we'll so what tomorrow brings.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by JJA on Jun 5^th, 2005, 8:03am

Lysergic acid amide (LSA) is very closely related to LSD. It seems to be very similar to psilocybin, and very different from kudzu. In fact, LSA and kudzu could be called opposites since they have opposite actions where we (or me at least) think they work for CH, the 5-HT2a receptors.

It works a lot like psilocybin in terms of "cycle breaking" and psychological effects, again unlike kudzu. It seems to have a worse side effect profile than psilocybin, including some very serious circulation issues. Its main advantage over psilocybin is that it is legal.

I'm not sure how it first came about to be used for CH. It was a common sense conclusion to try it for CH, since it is an indole ring hallucinogen, very similar to psilocybin and LSD. It's not really new here. It has been over a year since someone first posted here that LSA worked for CH. I'm not sure why it became popular recently...

It has no medical use (according to the US government) , so it is a recreational drug.

Jesse

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by tommyD on Jun 5^th, 2005, 11:54am

There are too few reports so far to recommend an ideal dosage or method of preparation for LSA from HBWR seeds. Some have cracked the seeds open and dug out the kernal inside (discarding the hulls), mashed that and soaked it for two hours or more in a little cold water, then consumed the water. Ingesting the hulls seems to increase the chances of digestive upset. From reports (not having tried either) I would not recommend morning glory seeds - they are too small to hull, and are known in hippie lore for their effects on the digestive system ("sure-fire puke" is the word)

Be careful out there! LSA is a powerful hallucinogen, as well as a vaso-contrictor as Jesse notes, and high doses can lead to some serious psychdelic experiences. How high a dose? One report on Erowid recounts a heavy trip on about a dozen seeds. Some people report falling asleep (sometimes with intense visions/dreams) on high doses, others are stimulated. All precautions for indole-ring hallucinogens apply to LSA (avoid if you suffer psychological problems, have a baby sitter, control set and setting). Seed : http://www.clusterbusters.com/faq.html#5

For medicinal purposes, Flash is recommending a conservative approach of starting off with a single HBWR seed for the first dose, then increasing that to 2 if there is no anti-cluster effect, then 3, etc...

Remember, there is little info on this stuff. Anyone trying this is considered a "pioneer" or less euphemictially - a guinea pig.

There is some information on LSA and HBRW seeds at www.erowid.org

Good luck, plazticsoul, and let us know how things go.

-tommyD

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Jonny on Jun 5^th, 2005, 11:55am

on 06/05/05 at 08:03:15, JJA wrote:

It seems to have a worse side effect profile than psilocybin, including some very serious circulation issues.

Nuff said, in my book.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Peppermint on Jun 5^th, 2005, 10:42pm

on 06/05/05 at 11:54:31, tommyD wrote:

Remember, there is little info on this stuff. Anyone trying this is considered a "pioneer" or less euphemictially - a guinea pig.

There is some information on LSA and HBRW seeds at www.erowid.org

-tommyD

Guinea pig - that leaves a sort of uneasiness..... can those "unknowns" be compared to other alternative treatment unknowns? Thanks for the input everyone, but I have to ask, would you consider one to be safer than the other? Maybe there's no answer for that yet either and I probably missed it. Lots of info to wade through and the variables/unknowns I think are somewhat daunting.

I realize that is not the main factor as being PF is first in your book is my guess (call me stupid!)---- but I am just wondering where this weighs in against other stuff. For example, "prednisone" seems pretty evil in my book from some of the horrendous results I have seen people go through.... then again, what is the lesser of the two evils?

I think I can take a good stab at that answer though I think that answer can be as unique as any individual.

Its a lot to think about I think... [smiley=bulb.gif] [smiley=confused2.gif] Appreciate the link Tommy ;)

That was some great input you guys. Thanks.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by JJA on Jun 6^th, 2005, 8:19am

on 06/05/05 at 22:42:51, Peppermint wrote:

...would you consider one to be safer than the other?

In my opinion, among LSA, psilocybin and kudzu, psilocybin seems the safest from a physical health point of view. I say this because unlike the others, psilocybin has been commonly used for the past 40 years (but not for CH obviously). Any problems with this drug's safety would be known by now. In fact, it is known now that psilocybin can magnify or possibly cause psychotic symptoms in susceptible people.
On the other hand, the legal standing of psilocybin makes it dangerous. If caught, chances are very good that you would just get a "slap on the wrist", but there is a possibility of serious jail time. (We need drug law reform)
Between LSA and kudzu, I could only guess which is safer, but I do believe either one could be used safely by a cautious, informed person.

Remember, this was all just my opinion.

Jesse

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Flash on Jun 6^th, 2005, 8:45am

Here is some good information that one of the Clusterbusters unearthed:

"They had Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds for sale. I told him about HBWR
seeds as a treatment for CH. He said if HBWR seeds work, Rivea
Corymbosa seeds should work even better. He said they have the same
psychoactive effect as HBWR seeds but none of the side effects of HBWR
seeds like nausea and gravity-pull. The Rivea Corymbosa seeds are much
smaller than HBWR seeds. They're only about 1/4th the size. There are
about 4 times as many of them (looked like more than 200) in a 7g
package as there are HBWR seeds in a 7g package. He said 20 Rivea
Corymbosa seeds is psychoactively equivalent to 5 HBWR seeds. Instead
of opening the seed, scraping out the inside and making tea; you just
crush the entire seeds and make tea. He also said don't dose more than
45 seeds at a time because 40-45 is like a full LSD dose. Prices are
in Canadian dollars, you can order on-line with major credit cards and
they ship worldwide. Here's the link to his website...

http://www.ethnogarden.com

Here's the Rivea Corymbosa seeds page...

http://www.ethnogarden.com/cart/index.pl/catid_77/proid_156

Could this be another "legal" weapon in our arsenal against the beast?

I didn't buy them, but I thought one of you experienced psychonauts
might want to do some further research on them. I found that they are
also known as "ololiuqui" and found these links...

http://www.erowid.org/plants/ololiuqui/ololiuqui.shtml

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/references/
other/1971_hofmann_bulletin-narcotics.shtml#s110"

Thanks to BikerBob - hope you don't mind me quoting it again!

The main advantages would appear to be that the seeds are weaker thus making it easier to tailor the dose. They also lack the poisonous outer husk, and ergotamine content of HBW.

So these might be worth careful consideration for anyone considering going down the LSA path.

Most medicine is dangerous if taken in too large and/or too frequent doses. The main safety benefit of indole ring hallucinogens is that they can be effective in extremely small and extremely infrequent doses.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by nani on Jun 6^th, 2005, 10:19am

on 06/05/05 at 08:03:15, JJA wrote:

It seems to have a worse side effect profile than psilocybin, including some very serious circulation issues.

Jesse

Jesse, what kind of circulation issues? LSA would likely be the next thing I try if kudzu ever fails me. Can you explain the circulation problems or point me in the direction of something I can read about it? Thanks. :)

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by JJA on Jun 6^th, 2005, 12:20pm

Nani,
By "circulation issues" I meant vasoconstriction, possibly even ergotism. LSA is thought to cut off circulation much like methysergide. Possiblities range from horror story gangrene to more realisic cold hands and feet. It seems to be most applicable to recreation users trying to get and "LSD level" trip out of LSA. Information on this is pretty limited and mostly word of mouth from recreational users. I can't find any good links. Maybe someone else can??

Jesse

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by broomhilda on Jun 6^th, 2005, 2:03pm

on 06/06/05 at 12:20:29, JJA wrote:

Guess this option is out for me then :( I have a circulatory disease . One reason folks need to research and read everything before they try anything including alternative treatments.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by clarence on Jun 6^th, 2005, 4:12pm

Ordered the seeds. Both HBWS and the Rivea Corymbosa that Flash posted. Kudzu worked well for me until I experienced shortness of breath and tightness in my chest, and I decided that I needed to get off of everything. I have been only using O2 and white knuckleing it for about 2 months. About 2 weeks ago I took a shot of trex as a last resort. The CH is ramping up, and it won't be long before I need something. The pain is just getting too much, and too frequent.

So, since I have been off meds for a while, I thought I would be in a good position to try this. The seeds should be here tomorrow. I will try the Rivea Corymbosa first, and if they don't work well, I will go for HBW.

If this works, fantastic. If not, on to somehting else.

I am fully ok with being a Guinea Pig.

Casey

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 7^th, 2005, 3:07am

Wish you every success Casey. Keep us posted.
FYI: No circulation problems detected at 5 seeds or less for "ME" with HBWR. 2 months out of cycle now.
Blessings, Joe

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Lizzie2 on Jun 7^th, 2005, 3:53am

on 06/06/05 at 14:03:13, broomhilda wrote:

Guess this option is out for me then :( I have a circulatory disease . One reason folks need to research and read everything before they try anything including alternative treatments.

I'm all for whatever brings a person pain free time, but this is where I hit a rock, too. Many have read my Kudzu experience, and there have been a lot of varying opinions on it. I actually did really read up on it - discussed it with my neurologist, etc.

No...I couldn't 'detox' off my med list at the time because all of the meds I was taking (including verapamil) were used to treat other medical conditions other than CH. Maybe that was my downfall. I'll never know.

Although I do believe in trying alternatives for those who have the least likelihood for running into unknown complications, I stand by what I've always felt about them - natural/herbal/whatever does not mean "non-drug." Everything comes with a risk.

I know I probably sound like a prude, but for now...I don't like walking into the unknown. As bad as some of the side effect lists are on the meds I've taken - at least I've been able to read all about them, and then take the leap....with a few exceptions where I didn't have access to all the info prior to the treatment due to certain circumstances.

I'm lying on the couch awake all night cuz of surgery on both knees for AVN - apparently a combination of my own biology but progressed/accelerated by taking prednisone. I never knew steroids could do that until I was diagnosed. In fact, I never even knew what AVN was. But at the same time, not everyone who takes steroids gets AVN. How can we ever know for sure who will wind up with what bad effects from whatever treatment we choose? It's a scary thing...

I was given info today that potentially links AVN to coagulopathy disorders...this was of particular interest to me as I've had 2 blood clots, and also instances of massive hemorrhages, plus one golf-ball sized benign tumor made up of blood vessels. [smiley=huh.gif] I have a family history of various clotting disorders - ranging the scale from too much to too little. It's like a sea of info that....if we spent every single day searching everything out there...we'd still never weed through it all.

I just would hope everyone would educate themselves as best as possible about whatever treatment path they choose. There are times when I haven't made the best 'choices' based on the knowledge I had (for example - my bleeding disaster while on kudzu), but these are the risks we take.

Keep living - keep searching - never lose hope.

JMO,
Lizzie2/Carrie :)

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Flash on Jun 7^th, 2005, 4:34am

The circulatory problems caused by LSA are most likely due to the ergotamine content in the HBW seeds. This is not likely to be the case with Rivea Corymbosa... but people should check first. It certainly isn't the case with mushrooms which contain psilocybin. All indole ring hallucinogens are very mild vascular constrictors though, about the same level as caffiene.

Now a word of warning, one of the clusterbusters reached a level 4 (out of 5) experience on only 5 HBW seeds. Fortunately it worked out OK. But this does illustrate the big problem with HBW which is consistency of dose. So anyone determind to try HBW should consider kicking off with 1 seed or less to test the water. Never assume two batches will be the same. Personally I'l opt for Rivea Corymbosa instead!

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by BikerBob on Jun 7^th, 2005, 2:49pm

on 06/06/05 at 08:19:06, JJA wrote:

Rivea Corymbosa seeds (LSA) have been used as a sacrament by the Aztec and Mazatec tribes in the Sierra Mazatec mountains in Mexico for centuries. They're still a hearty bunch.

BB

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by JJA on Jun 7^th, 2005, 3:15pm

Good point BikerBob. I guess my thinking was more along the lines of psilocybin being a commonly used drug in the US, therefore being well studied relative to kudzu and LSA. Just between you and me I don't think LSA is dangerous either, but I couldn't back that up with anything.

Jesse

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 7^th, 2005, 4:39pm

Lizzie I hope you are feeling better soon. Flash has a valid point, but let me also say that I have noticed "BIG" differences in pharmaceuticals potency as well from one pill to the next, and what about food poisoning. It is OK to be concerned about anything we put in our bodies. IMHO people that overeat and are obese are at more risk (DAILY) than me and 5 HBWR seeds every couple of weeks. Time to go read a joke ;;D.
Blessings

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Linda_Howell on Jun 7^th, 2005, 4:51pm

Just now getting into this thread, so please excuse me if it's been talked about before.

While realizing that anyone trying this is acting as a guinea pig, I would have a serious concern about the dosage. Some say 4 seeds...some say no more than 12...I'm 5' tall and weigh 105. Wouldn't that be a factor in how much I should take? A man who is 6'2" would tolerate a lot more than I would.

Too many variables for me no matter how desperate I was.

Linda

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 7^th, 2005, 5:21pm

This chemical acts on the brain not the brawn. I have seen smaller sized people do different types of hallucinogens without stronger reactions. Linda if you are not at all comfortable trying this treatment than I would say that you are psychologicaly not in position to use it in any way. Your mental and physical safety are the most important thing in my mind. Stay safe. Blessing's Joe

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Linda_Howell on Jun 7^th, 2005, 5:49pm

thank you Joe.

Nice to see a short response to a question.

I appreciate it.

Linda

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by SteCo on Jun 7^th, 2005, 5:57pm

Quote:

While realizing that anyone trying this is acting as a guinea pig, I would have a serious concern about the dosage. Some say 4 seeds...some say no more than 12...

Yes...some have started with 3, 4, or more. I think the starting point is just one or even a partial of one...to get a feel or footing/starting point...then work your way up from that point if needed.
SteCo

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Lizzie2 on Jun 7^th, 2005, 7:51pm

on 06/07/05 at 16:39:51, jokrs2 wrote:

LOL as far as I know - the only drugs that I've heard of having to watch brand to brand on are in the blood-thinning category - particularly warfarin (coumadin). Even a small change in potency in this type of medication could lead to disasterous consequences to someone who really needs to maintain an accurate PT/INR. It goes to show that there probably are some changes in potency between brands of meds, but it is unlikely that these changes are very significant in the vast majority of cases.

Now I don't go worrying about most things - usually I do not worry about food! But some people do... I definitely worry about anything that contains: haldol, benadryl, anticholinergics, phenothiazines, reglan, and droperidol......the effects (for me) range from anaphylaxis to severe cardiac effects to mental status changes to severe neurologic effects. So I wear a medic alert bracelet.

I think with this list of "issues" not to mention ones I won't even begin to describe...I don't need to add any other things to worry with!

Again..whatever keeps ya goin. :)

Lizzie :)

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Flash on Jun 8^th, 2005, 5:51am

Also recommend testing th potency of each batch by ingesting a maximum of 1 seed first. Seed potency can vary a lot with HBW. Much more so than is true of mushrooms.

The same is true with most plant attributes. Just looks at the flavour of things like grapes, tomatoes, olives, onions, garlic, etc... So it shouldn't be a surprise to see potency vary.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 8^th, 2005, 4:17pm

I just ordered the Rivea Corymbosa seeds from Iamshaman.com. These seeds will make a very nice plant for your indoor window box. The price for 100 seeds plus shipping was $20.44. I should get them early next week and will take a small dose on the following friday night. I opted to try these per Flash's report on no convulsive in the husk. Less side effects are always a better option if it will still produce the desired result, which is no CH hits or shadows. Since 40-45 seeds will produce a LSD type high I will be starting at perhaps 5-10 seeds. I will file a string on the Rivea after the dosing is over.
PFD&N's to all. Joe

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Bob P on Jun 8^th, 2005, 4:27pm

Hey Flash. You ever taken HBWS? Just curious.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jun 8^th, 2005, 5:22pm

on 06/07/05 at 16:39:51, jokrs2 wrote:

but let me also say that I have noticed "BIG" differences in pharmaceuticals potency as well from one pill to the next

I would attribute this to a couple of things, which aren't about a difference in the actice ingredients, that might cause a difference between brands and pill-pill.
Different brands can and do use different fillers. There is very little active ingredient in most pills. The fillers can make a difference for some people. Some times there are allergic reactions from one that might not be present with another, as an example.

I think there may also be more "outside" influenences at play to account for the pill-pill difference you may notice. Just as we've found different, let's say potencies, with psychedelics, based upon what you may have injested prior to the dose, there is reason to believe (if you believe that) that this might also exist with other meds. Many meds come with instructions to, "take first thing in the morning", "take at bedtime," "take on a full stomach." etc. Some of these are to avoid side effects such as sleepiness, nausea etc, some instructions are to avoid conflicts with other meds/foods/etc.
Common foodstuffs will often make medications more or less potent. Grapefruit juice as an example should not be taken with verapamil.

So,,,the differences you may notice are probably more attributable to somethng you did, rather than the pharmaceutical company.
:D
Bobw

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Lizzie2 on Jun 8^th, 2005, 6:37pm

Bob,

Very good point. I had 3 levels of pharmacology courses over the past year, and one night my roommate and I were talking about the class. She looked at her antibiotic and it had an indication either to take with food or on an empty stomach (antibiotics often go either way, but I forget which hers was)...

After an entire explanation in class about how even something as simple as taking a drug with food that is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach can change the entire metabolism of the drug and actually, in some cases, render it completely ineffective....she said, "Well! That must be why it isn't working right and always makes me feel sick!" haha

Not only do the labels offer those warnings to prevent side effects - but also because they can definitely affect the metabolism of the drug - like the grapefruit juice/verapamil thing. Plus with the P450 component and hepatic metabolism or enterics, etc...well...that just plays a whole different role with it!

My one doc told me today that because the anti-seizure med I'm currently taking has such a strong P450 effect, then one of the other meds I'm taking is actually pretty useless, and I'm only seeming to experience some of the yucky side effects from it, instead of any benefit.

He's great about explaining certain medications and their related info when I don't know what it is. This often happens when my neuro prescribes two drugs at two different appointments - and for some reason he sometimes misses those bad combinations or the fact that when a certain medication is not classified as an anticholinergic but has those properties, it may make me lose all connection with reality.. LOL For this, I'm very greatful that I have the other doc who always takes the time to go through the meds and even look things up right then and there to explain them better.

Soooooo many things to consider!

L2 :)

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by clarence on Jun 8^th, 2005, 8:33pm

Rivea Corymbosa seeds delivered today.

Problem: They were shipped to the wrong address. They went to the apartment 2 floors above me. Why? Who the heck knows?

They aren't home right now. Or, they are tripping on a load of HBRW and RC.

Casey

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by BikerBob on Jun 8^th, 2005, 9:10pm

Casey, that's a potent package... got delivered two floors above you?... got high too soon... ;;D

Hope it works wonders on the CH...

PF wishes,
BB

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Flash on Jun 9^th, 2005, 11:15am

on 06/08/05 at 16:27:39, Bob P wrote:

Hey Flash. You ever taken HBWS? Just curious.

No.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Peppermint on Jun 9^th, 2005, 11:23am

I'm really glad everyone's taken the time to post and comment here- there really are a number of things to take note of when considering each alternative treatment.

Just take note its appreciated more so by your fellow clusterheads.

p.s. I know you guys like to bust eachother's humps on certain things, but when it boils down to it, it really does bring up some interesting and useful answers....

mucho love,
Pepp

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 15^th, 2005, 12:09am

im doing it with morning glory seeds i took one package 5mgs and im tripping my soxs off so far no real side effects a small discomfort in the stomache but nothing to cry about i took them 4 1/2 hours ago and im still going i hope this works i dont wanna do this again it was nice at 18 not 37 i dont feel right being like this for me im desperate 3 days and nights of k9 and k10 so im praying hard for this to help .

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Candycane on Jun 15^th, 2005, 12:12am

You took a package????????????? okay, how many of these do you see now?????????????????????????????????? ;;D

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 15^th, 2005, 11:50am

ok im still alive but most important im totally pf its been almost 20 hrs , the high wore off about 2am , yeah i took the whole package morning glory seed are smaller i read alot about them from what i read 2 packages is what most take but im a skinny guy and 1 was more than enough , 2 would have been way to much , i didnt do this for the effects , i have no insurance and no money right now the package was 97 cents and if it works as good as its seems to be ill be a very happy camper , im not cronic but my cycles last 4 to 8 weeks normally my last cycle went on for 14 weeks and i need to get this under control so i can find a job before i lose my house. to anyone thats gonna try this method do alot of reading and i mean alot of it you must detox from anything else your taking its best to eliminate any chances of anything going wrong before doing this

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by javi_spain on Jun 15^th, 2005, 1:03pm

Cazman

I hope you get rid of your cycle, manage to find a job and save your house.

Best of lucks.

Javi

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 15^th, 2005, 4:31pm

22 hours pf and holding

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by stomper on Jun 15^th, 2005, 4:56pm

diet, water intake, is all very important.a complete diet makeover, and drink plenty of water. please look into this,as it might help. pfd&n2u jimm

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Chillrmn1 on Jun 15^th, 2005, 9:04pm

Startin to smell like another success with LSA. Glad for ya cazman!!!!!!

WYPFDANS,
Bob

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Flash on Jun 16^th, 2005, 5:11am

on 06/15/05 at 11:50:06, cazman wrote:

to anyone thats gonna try this method do alot of reading and i mean alot of it you must detox from anything else your taking its best to eliminate any chances of anything going wrong before doing this

Well done!

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 16^th, 2005, 10:32pm

well they came back in full force from 1 am till 7 pm tonight ive been stable for a few hours just minor shadows the beast had alot a fun today im not givving up im gonna give it another try tomarrow if that dont work time to move one to kudzu thingy something has to work just gotta keep the faith

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 16^th, 2005, 10:44pm

Cazman. In my case when I first dosed I was in full CH and the hits continued for a couple of days and then all of a sudden they disappeared. I was still taking kudzu at the time and even after 5 days off it was probably still in my system. I dosed again after 7 days off kudzu and had instant pain relief and have not had a shadow for 12 weeks after 25 years chronic. Hopefully it is just a matter of a little bit more time and your attacks will diminish. Of course any time spent in a CH attack is way too long :-/. Best wishes Cazman. Joe

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Candycane on Jun 16^th, 2005, 10:56pm

on 06/16/05 at 22:44:42, jokrs2 wrote:

Bare with me, k? Have had a really tough week so far. I had great success the first time I dosed. 3 weeks PF and that is long for me. MY question is, do I wait til I am in pain to dose?Cause thats what I did and man it just didn't stick!!! Do I do a mantaince dose when I am not dieing??? Sorry for being so dense! I am doing only the HB seeds and am chronic and I am a wimp now!

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 16^th, 2005, 11:03pm

Hi Candycane.
I don't wait for more pain. "I"do maintenance doses at least 1 week apart and usually 2. It is keeping the beast away and that's all I can say about that. Some may not agree with this dosing, but it's working for me. It's still way cheaper than all of the prescription meds that didn't really help in my case. Wish you the best. Joe

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Candycane on Jun 16^th, 2005, 11:08pm

on 06/16/05 at 23:03:09, jokrs2 wrote:

Hey,Thank you Joe [smiley=hug.gif]

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Chillrmn1 on Jun 17^th, 2005, 4:18am

Hi CC,

I tend to agree with Joe's philosophy in my case. Prior to attacking the beast with LSA, I was dosing with psilocybin. Found I was better off at 7 day intervals, was getting 2 - 4 days PF time. Tried the wait and see approach for 14 days once and the beast wouldn't leave me alone. Joe's approach by hitting the beast often offered me more effective results. After reading other's success with LSA, I tried the HBWR seeds, and I had also been sip dosing psilo 5 days prior to seed dosing. After that one LSA dosing, the beast went right into remission, period. Been 5 weeks now totally pain free. I'm not trying to argue against the wait and see approach, just trying to make the point that we're all different so we seem to respond differently. Seems you have to find which way works best for you. As for me, I think my success was attributed to the combination of psilo and LSA working together. BTW- I'm episodic and believe you're chronic, another variable. And you're not a wimp, just hang in there and keep moving forward, I'm sure you'll get there.

Hoping you find the right formula and wishing you PF time,
Bob

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 17^th, 2005, 7:59am

i feel like a lad rat but this has to be cause this beast is mean mean mean im gonna dose tomarrow it will be saturday and the wife will be here if anything should happen well see what happens .

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cynthy on Jun 18^th, 2005, 11:08am

well I'm back again still looking for some relief, since I'm having a hard time with my farm, and can't get any more L S D, I thought I would give the rivea seeds a try last night, so here is my experience
I soaked 3 crushed seeds for 2.5 hours in water, strained and drank, it was 11:40 pm,
(I work nites and sleep days so it was my morning)
I really didn't feel any difference as my thought process felt the same , it was around 1:30 and I felt sad and was going through the "poor me" phase, I had been putting off a good cry for a while now anyway and no I'm not depressed, I ended up talking myself out of it, didn't want to go there, have to self pity another day. What I did experience physically was that my legs felt very heavy and tight especially the upper thigh, it was like the effects you would get from working out, not sure what that was all about,
at around 3am was really tired and went to sleep, really went to sleep, no ch ! I always get hit when I try to sleep so I don't have to tell you how surprised I was when I woke at 8 this morning by myself, not with a ch wake up call ! So I feel really good this morning, and hoping the next time I shut my eyes they will not come back,
does anyone know how long between you should wait between doses ?
hoping all success and cazman, let us know how you did last night, hope all went well and your pf
cynthy

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by nani on Jun 18^th, 2005, 11:33am

Hey cynthy!! This is not my area of expertise (actually I don't have any areas of expertise LOL) but I think the average is to dose every 7 days at first.

I'm sure someone who really knows will come along. Glad you're getting a bit of a break. Keep us posted. PF wishes and hugs, nani

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Candycane on Jun 18^th, 2005, 12:14pm

Well al I can say is I waited 3 weeks cause I was feeling soooo good BIG MISTAKE!!!! I was taking the HRWB seeds though but am going to try the Rivea Corymbosa ones next. Again the HRWB ones worked I just messed not doing the mantainece doses.

Good Luck!!! Happy you got sleep ( whats that like? ) ;;D

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by bruceg on Jun 19^th, 2005, 3:29pm

Just to put in my 2 cents:

I've just started to test out LSA in the form of Woodrose seeds. first a little back ground. 47, have had CH for 10 years, typically 2 cycles of 6 to 8 weeks a year. Last couple of years, have tapered off to 1 cycle every other year, but cycle lasts 8 to 12 weeks.

Have tried all abortives and most prophelactives, O2 is the only one that works (90% of the time) of which I can stand the side effects.

HA Patterns are generally at night (I can set a clock by the first one which comes at 1:00AM) with follow on attacks every two hours until morning.

Other than that, of course, the ingestion of alchoal, at almost any amount during a cycle will bring on an attack.

So, a week ago I tried using Woodrose Seeds ordered from iamshaman.com. Cracked open two seeds, extracted the center, chopped them up and brewed them in hot water for several minutes. Adding suger (they taste awfull) and peppermint tea I swallowed the brew down.

No real physical effect except for me mild stomach discomfort that may have just been what I ate that day.

The result was a completely CH free night...albiet with a mild "hangover" type headache in the morning. Was even able to tolerate two drinks the following day without setting off a CH. Following two days, vaugue shadows, but nothing requiring O2, even though I took a cautious drink or two.

However, four days later I got walloped by a pretty big CH right before bedtime.

I'm still cautiously optimistic about this form of treatment, but was pretty upset about the latest CH.

Will be trying a stronger dose later today...figured its fathers day and if trip out, hey, its my day aint it?

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by vig on Jun 19^th, 2005, 3:39pm

cool!
but this time don't push your luck and leave the boozy behind.
;;D

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jun 19^th, 2005, 3:52pm

I think it's a very good idea to stay as far away from ANY triggers as possible for a while to give the system a chance to settle back into non-cluster mode. Much easier to rekindle a fire when the embers are still hot.

Happy Father's Day
Bobw

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 19^th, 2005, 4:06pm

its fathers day been a very very rough 3 days for me getting hit way to much i had planned on doseing again today but my house is full of family and i just can dose with this many peeps around so im holding off till toarrow morning first thing so i can spend the day in lala land with distration and nosy morons around, i love my family very much but if one more of them say take two motrin and take a nap im gonna shoot them all, sometimes i wish i could have them expeirence just one ch so they shut the fuck up sorry im really frustrated and the guy who was supposed to hook me up with o2 today blew me off and im i wanna send the bad man to fix him lol thanks for listenning , i now return you to your scheduled progarm

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by jokrs2 on Jun 19^th, 2005, 4:30pm

Hey Bruce.
Your first test sounds pretty typical. Congrats!
It's not necessary to use hot water in the extraction process, (see Hofmanns research..Erowid.com). Also, it is a good idea to fast and even skip a meal before you dose as this will lessen the stomach discomfort. Some gas and possibly a little diarhea is possible. Gatorade is what I use as a supplement during this stage of the journey. Rivea Corymbosa is also easier on the stomach than the HBWR in my personal experience. Agree completely with BobW., stay away from those triggers, ie..alcohol etc..
Regards, Joe

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by bruceg on Jun 19^th, 2005, 5:14pm

I've always had an 'emotional' concern that HA caused by external triggers--outside of the pain the cause--extended or somehow modified the CH episode. However, my research (and my doctor's opinion along with that of my brother who's also a doc) says it doesn't make a difference. So, why do it? Well, I want to know if it works!

The big problem (and its not as big as those who have chronic or even more frequent epsiodes, I know) is that, how do you know a treatment works or you just reached the end of the cycle.

So, by puposefully "pulling a trigger" I'm just trying to gather real facts. (And know, I'm not really a matyr, but I do normally have a pretty high pain treashold.)

Hopefully, I'm on the last legs of this monster, as my type of presentation generally assumes that I'll have less and less epsiodes...but, not to whine because again I see that there are those sufferring a lot worse than I...but its almost more disruptive due to its infrequency. I have my own business which requires travel. And so far, I've had to cancel two trips (can you image trying to get 02 tanks onboard a plane right now?

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Chillrmn1 on Jun 19^th, 2005, 5:44pm

Hey Bruce,

Seems the LSA helps you and is effective for your clusters and glad for you. IMHO, if I were you, I'd lay off the alcohol a little longer and not try to test the beast so soon. The LSA treatment for CH is relatively new, at least as far as recent posts/reports go as I can find. It's possible a healing process or other type mechanism, ie., chemical balancing, etc., is taking place which/that needs a few days to take place or complete. Just my 2 cents, but I wouldn't test/force/tempt the beast out so soon after dosing with known triggers. I was so glad to get my relief with LSA, that no way was I going to play with the beast. You see, I went thru hell for 8 1/2 months and wasn't going to do anything to jepordize my PF time finally found.

Again, just my 2 cents and wishing you the best.
Bob

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 19^th, 2005, 9:22pm

i figured out a 3 years ago the any form of alcohol triggers the beast so needless to say i havent had a drink in 3 years and till they find a staight out cure i wont start again, now if we could perscribe ch to alcoholics there might be less drunks out there
not that i want anyone to feel the beast
i dont even use mouthwash with alcohol in it

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by bruceg on Jun 20^th, 2005, 12:03am

Understand, and appriciate the concern. I honestly think I can count myself amongst the more fortunete ones as my epsiodes of late have not been too servere, certainly not as bad as previous years: hitting my head so hard against a wall, it went right through...and that was a lath a plaster wall!

Anyway, I really do want to find what it takes to kill it off, and know how well it does it. As I mentioned before, my big fustration is that, since my cycles are somewhat short, I never really know what works and what's just the end of the cycle. Right now, I'm in the middle of what would normally be a typical cycle.

Just as an update, I took a small does (one seed) this morning and other than a strong (but not painful) shadow...things are ok. Even had a glass of wine with dinner (yea I know, you can say I told you so if I come begging for sympathy tomorrow :) ).

So, its still looking positive on the long term outcome. Some further reading seems to suggest a regime of small daily doses over larger doses spread out over three to seven days....more on everything later.

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Pinkfloyd on Jun 20^th, 2005, 12:14am

on 06/19/05 at 17:14:34, bruceg wrote:

The big problem (and its not as big as those who have chronic or even more frequent epsiodes, I know) is that, how do you know a treatment works or you just reached the end of the cycle.

I understand what you were trying to do, or discover, but don't know how this would have answered your question one way or the other.

on 06/19/05 at 17:14:34, bruceg wrote:

So, by puposefully "pulling a trigger" I'm just trying to gather real facts. (And know, I'm not really a matyr, but I do normally have a pretty high pain treashold.)

Again, I understand your point and we aren't trying to just give you a hard time here.
We aren't sure that breaking a cycle with psychedelics is doing so through the same mechanisms as a natural remission. Usually, at the time of a natural remission, triggers lose their ability to "trigger" very quickly and if the cycle is over, a beer the next day probably won't make a difference, as you and your docs suggest.
A psychedelic break may be a bit different and it seems a bit more tenuous. You need a little more time to allow things to settle down.
Also, during a natural remission, it gets there when it gets there. Your system sort of settles down on its own as the remission begins and when you realize the cycle is over, you've gone through that period already where you've stayed away from triggers during this remission period. For some, clusters go away very quickly as the remission begins. For others, the attacks may slowly lose severity and frequency.
During this attempt at an induced break (psychedelics) the natural slowdown or (healing) that takes place over some time period, isn't present. You need to give the neurological system a chance to catch up. One of those, "wait a minute, what's going on, we weren't ready for this" sort of things.

So, some of us think that by adding triggers just to test the waters, if done too soon, may be prolonging this cooling off period and the cycle itself.

BobW
(yes, just a theory but we are trying to determine why, and explain why, many people take longer to break cycles than others. In many cases, there is still a
trigger(s) present during the times people are trying to break the cycles with psychedelics)

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by Chillrmn1 on Jun 20^th, 2005, 6:09am

Hey cazman,

I can relate with you on the alcohol. Once I figured it was a trigger years back, I quit. My damn attacks were so extreme I was going to stop or block as many avenues as possible hoping the beast would get lost and not find my pain address. Another plus to this...........no more hangovers and more money in my pocket..........sorry for those of you holding stock in Smirnoff, stock must have started to plummet at that time.

Bob

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by bruceg on Jun 20^th, 2005, 3:12pm

on 06/20/05 at 00:14:43, Pinkfloyd wrote:

A psychedelic break may be a bit different and it seems a bit more tenuous. You need a little more time to allow things to settle down.

Also, during a natural remission, it gets there when it gets there. Your system sort of settles down on its own as the remission begins and when you realize the cycle is over, you've gone through that period already where you've stayed away from triggers during this remission period. For some, clusters go away very quickly as the remission begins. For others, the attacks may slowly lose severity and frequency.

Interesting thought. According to some newer information I have heard and seen around, the "cycle" is also tied to an individuals Circadian cycle. So, you idea that you can't "opt out" of a cycle would hold water...you can simply mask or block the effect of the cycle. So, Ok, I'll go with no alcohol and continue the experiment. (Its not like I can't go without it...the biggest issue is that we are I guess what you'd call "foodies" and wine an essential part of that experiance...so, that's not that big of a deal...had to give up bacon years ago<G>)

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 20^th, 2005, 5:09pm

thanks chill now i know why i lost money on that stock lol

Title: Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
Post by cazman on Jun 21^st, 2005, 12:12pm

did another dose last night 4.5 grams of morning glory seeds once again no side affects other than i medium trip effect took them at 8pm its now around 12pm next day been pf so far no shadows nothing little hangover type thing but not bad i wanna thank the people that were in chat last night it help keep me in line mentally i will keep yall update as to how long it last this time around .