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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2005 >> Melatonin Question...
        
(Message started by: Langa on Sep 22^nd, 2005, 4:24pm)

Title: Melatonin Question...
Post by Langa on Sep 22^nd, 2005, 4:24pm

Does melatonin keep you in or out of rem sleep?
I couldn't find the answer here or a clear one on the internet... [smiley=huh.gif]

Thanks.

Langa

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by Margi on Sep 22^nd, 2005, 4:28pm

Langa, here's an ad that says it "enhances" REM sleep.

http://www.raysahelian.com/melatonin.html

Which kinda blows the theory of REM being a cluster trigger outta the water, doesn't it?

I've heard that before, actually - that melatonin does promote REM. Maybe it's a different level of REM? I dunno. I know Dramamine and Benadryl prevent REM.

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by Kris_in_SJ on Sep 22^nd, 2005, 7:16pm

I asked that question once before also, Langa. Floridian had a pretty good explanation, though I don't exactly remember what it was. I only know when I take it, I have very vivid dreams, but a noticeable decrease in night hits.

On another note, it has also totally stopped my menopausal early morning waking. I still take a small dose every night even though I'm not in cycle - will continue until the dreaded "change" is over and done with!

Kris

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by floridian on Sep 22^nd, 2005, 8:07pm

In small amounts, melatonin does not change the structure of sleep (the amount spent in various phases). In amounts over 5 mg, it may increase REM. But this is for normal people - most clusterheads have a melatonin deficit.

But even in the studies that found that melatonin did not increase REM, it did change the nature of REM - lots of talk about spectral dynamics of high frequency brain waves that I haven't decoded yet. I benefit from melatonin, though I usually need relatively little - less than 1 mg when I am shadowing and 3 mg when I am getting hit hard.

http://www.med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/tiki-index.php?page=Melatonin

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by Langa on Sep 23^rd, 2005, 11:19am

I was told by 2 doctors and a homeopathist that Malatonin is a REM sleep inhibitor. For me though it did stop the night time hits, and I sleep soundly the first 3-4 hours after taking it, but then am up like an owl after. I also have very vivid dreams. I do not take the time release ones which is probably why it doesn't work for me after 4 or so hours.

The same homeopathist said that though it keeps you out of REM, you can still have restful sleep, but I thought it is only in REM sleep that our bodies get the most adequate sleep. [smiley=huh.gif]

If I go by what I experience, I would say melatonin is a REM sleep "enhancer" as your link states Margi.

I guess there's a lot more research to be done on it... :-/

Thanks for the info guys.

Langa

P.S.: The Homeopathist thought 9 mg of Melatonin before bedtime was too much, until I told him I read that Clusterheads usually have low levels of melatonin at night (which justifies our usual trait of being poor sleepers right?). Then he had nothing to say...lol

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by brokencranium on Sep 23^rd, 2005, 2:02pm

This may help a little...I too am interested in Melatonin...

The following came out of a recent American Family Physician article. (a peer reviewed journal of the American Academy of Physicians)

Melatonin

Dosages: 10 mg orally at bedtime
Adverse Reactions: None reported
Summary: In a double-blind, placebo-controlled study31 of 20 patients, headache frequency was reduced in five of 10 patients in the treatment group. A more recent pilot study19 of nine patients did not show any difference in response between the treatment and placebo groups

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by eyes_afire on Sep 23^rd, 2005, 4:59pm

I'm certainly no expert, but:

Quote:

I would say melatonin is a REM sleep "enhancer" as your link states Margi.

I agree. I don't handle it too well... I don't need any help reaching REM, that's fer damn sure.

Quote:

I thought it is only in REM sleep that our bodies get the most adequate sleep.

We certainly need REM sleep, but it is actually a very active sleep phase. I've been dreaming for 2 weeks and I'm freekin tired.

The daytime sleepiness is enough reason for me to avoid it:

http://altmed.creighton.edu/melatonin/side%20effects.htm

(some interesting info on that site)

--- Steve

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by Gena on Sep 24^th, 2005, 8:30am

on 09/23/05 at 11:19:36, Langa wrote:

I was told by 2 doctors and a homeopathist that Malatonin is a REM sleep inhibitor. Don't ever listen to them again. For me though it did stop the night time hits, and I sleep soundly the first 3-4 hours after taking it, but then am up like an owl after. I also have very vivid dreams. I do not take the time release ones which is probably why it doesn't work for me after 4 or so hours. If you made it through the first 2 hours without getting hit, I think it may work for you, what in the hell are you waiting for, get some time release also.

thomas......... posting as Gena.

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by TxBasslady on Oct 2^nd, 2005, 12:31am

Melatonin worked for me.

I took 3mg to start...then increased to 6 and then to 9mg. There were times the CH broke thru...but all in all it worked well for me.

Sometime last December, it quit working. No matter how much I took, I still got hit. I stopped taking it and went back to my triptan. Did another Pred taper in January, and then started the Kudzu in February.

I tried the Melatonin again after I started the Kudzu, but for some reason, it still didn't help. I haven't taken the Melatonin in a long time. However, it did a good job for me for about 10 months.

I haven't used a triptan since early January. Thank goodness the Kudzu is still working. It's not foolproof....but it works 95% of the time for me.

Jean

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by Langa on Oct 4^th, 2005, 10:50am

Interesting.

When in cycle, melatonin did end the nighttime hits for me and I would sleep for 3-4 hours non-stop (which is rare for me as I wake up constantly during the night), but I would wake up exhausted anyway.

After doing some research I found out that rem sleep is the most ACTIVE time for the brain during sleep, which explains our vivid dreams, but it is also the time when our bodies experience “body paralysis” as the body’s way of stopping us from acting out our dreams – being that some of our dreams are violent. Which is why doctors say that’s when our bodies experience the most rest – they’re referring to body paralysis during rem. Furthermore, since clusterheads suffer from lack of Melatonin, this is probably why we get hit so bad at night because our brains don’t experience rem sleep or that ACTIVE brain time – and as we all know it is in those QUIET, NON STRESSFUL, RELAXED moments that the hits come. So based on what I read it would make more sense that melatonin IS a rem sleep enhancer. This is also why the time release works best for us as it keeps us in rem sleep longer. I can also understand why we wake up feeling tired if our brain has been active most of the night.

I also found out that rem sleep starts about an hour after we fall asleep - this is actually the most non active phase of sleep – or as sleep doctors call it slow-wave or delta sleep, which is why we usually wake up within an hour of sleep with a hit right before rem begins. So taking melatonin brings on rem sleep sooner and makes it last longer than the 120 minute mark.

Speaking of “body paralysis”, that’s also caused by a brain chemical at the onset of rem sleep. For sleep walkers though, that chemical is either lacking or non-existant. Also, melatonin is higher during childhood and adolescence, which is why older people need less sleep.

Why it stops working for some of us I can only guess is that our bodies become immune to it with time. Why it doesn’t work at all for some of us, I have no clue. Ultimately, our bodies dictate what goes anyway. :-/

Lots of theories based on what I’ve read and I know I’m rambling, but at least a lot of it makes sense to me now. :P

I welcome any other thoughts, theories or facts about it of course.

Thanks for your help.

Langa

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Oct 5^th, 2005, 12:23am

Sorry i have no pertinent info to add about how melatonin works. I just read the whole thread and i have absolutely no idea about REM sleep or not.
I have always had a problem with sleep and have tried the top 6 prescription sleep aids to no avail. When i got the clusters, and you people said melatonin, i started taking it immediately mixed with benadryl. I think that maybe it reduces the frequency a tiny bit, but i still get anywhere from 3 to 6 hits a night. A benefit that i like is that after i do wake up and have to go huff O2 or maybe take a shot, i can get back to sleep quite easily. THAT is a bonus. If you only get 2 to 3 hours of interrupted sleep per night, at least falling to sleep quickly is a positive. And also the benadryl keeps my nose from getting stuffed and my eye from tearing quite well.
Also, my experience is that in about 6 to 8 hours after taking the melatonin, i wake up quite easily and feel rested. People talk about being groggy or whatever, i have found the opposite. I wake up totally wide eyed.
I love melatonin. [smiley=heart.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] It is the wonderdrug sleep aid. I take 6mg when not in cycle, and i take 9mg when i am in cycle.
PF wishes and happy snoring ;)
BMonee

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by cjc68 on Oct 6^th, 2005, 3:08am

on 09/22/05 at 16:28:34, Margi wrote:

I think you are right Margi....the way I understood it is that there are different levels or phases of REM...... just for SH*TS and Giggles lets say there are 5 levels.......lets say that level 2 of REM is the level that C/H's are triggered, Melatonin helps us to jump from level 1 to level 3, bypassing level 2 avoiding that trigger level or helps us to move through level 2 faster thus reducing our chances of a hit. That is the way a friend of mine put it to me, this friend of mine worked in a Sleep Study Lab...He told me that they even had a a couple of C/H sufferers as subjects.

Chris

Title: Re: Melatonin Question...
Post by dougW on Oct 6^th, 2005, 2:20pm

There is no simple answer to the question, as melatonin physiology is not fully understood. Same with many nueronal and chemical pathways in the brain.

However, melatonin is not used to enhance or inhibit REM sleep.

Melatonin may induce sleep through various mechanisms. The stages of sleep, including REM sleep occur after you are asleep, melatonin is thought not to enhance nor inhibit REM sleep. It helps you fall asleep, what happens when you are asleep is another subject.

The mechanism of melatonin in the treatment of cluster headache is likely involved with circadian rhythms, sleep-wake cycles and thermoregulation. These share a common pathway, the SCN (suprachiasmatic nucleus).

For more detailed reading try these sites, which will surely put you to sleep:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/312/7041/1242

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9800155&dopt=Citation

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-2982.2005.00889.x?cookieSet=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=94046392&dopt=Citation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1701579&dopt=Citation

Doug