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        New Message Board Archives >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies 2002 >> Acid???
        
(Message started by: Bob_Baker on Mar 8^th, 2002, 6:51pm)

Title: Acid???
Post by Bob_Baker on Mar 8^th, 2002, 6:51pm

How bad is acid? Someone told me if you take acid more then 7 times you are medicaly considered insane. Is this true? Someone else told me it fucks up your brain, and neck... I've heard some awful things about acid... To anyone considering doing acid to cure CH, I'd suggest you take shrooms.. Atleast they are natural... Unlike Acid.. But could anyone answer my ???'s? thanks...
bob

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by chjohn on Mar 8^th, 2002, 7:36pm

L.S.D. is a self inflicted phsycosis. It alters the brain chemistry. You have altered feelings in your body, time seems to be compressed, and things appear to happen very fast, you laugh alot at about anything, you see colored paterns, and flashes of colors. When things move you see trails, (or multple shadows) behind them.
You can become very paranoid, frightened easily, concerned about flipping out, or having a bad trip.
The trip can last 6 hours, or more, and the next day you feel shitty, can't sleep well, and your stomach is very uncomfortable.
Although the trip is only half a day or less, it seems that it took a long time for my thinking to become entirely normal again.
I don't recommend acid for anything, not worth experimenting with. Not to mention the legal, risks, a very serious crime, possestion alone is a felony in most states.
My recollection from 30 years ago, a time for which I am still paying the cost.
John

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by Karla on Mar 8^th, 2002, 10:51pm

There was a time in my life when I used to do lots of acid (3 or 4 times a week). I don't think I am insane or have any kind or perminent brain damage. I don't recall any discomfort to my neck. However, I do agree with the previous post about feeling lousy the day after but I was usually ok if I stayed under the influence of alcohol. I would agree 100% it is not worth getting arrested over to try to prevent or abort ch.

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 9^th, 2002, 6:41am

Bob Baker writes:

Quote:

Someone told me if you take acid more then 7 times you are medicaly considered insane. Is this true?

No.

Quote:

Someone else told me it fucks up your brain, and neck...

Also untrue.

chjohn writes:

Quote:

... the next day you feel shitty...

Odd you should say that. Back in the late 60s and early 70s, when my friends and I sampled LSD pretty frequently, one of the things we all enjoyed the most was the marvelous feeling of clarity and serenity that persisted for a few days after each trip. Certainly none of us ever felt "shitty" the next day -- quite the reverse.

I guess my friends and I were lucky, or maybe the street LSD from that time was a higher quality than that which is available today, but none of the dozens of people I knew personally ever had a bad trip -- we always had a GREAT time. But I have read enough accounts of people having some pretty intense reactions to realize that it can sometimes happen.

I won't argue with the legality issue, except to say that because of LSD's status as a Schedule 1 Controlled substance, these days it takes some pretty special connections to obtain medical-quality LSD. Unlike mushrooms, you can't grow LSD, so that just leaves the black market as a source, and doses of LSD obtained on the black market vary wildly in potency.

pinky

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by chjohn on Mar 9^th, 2002, 9:13pm

Maybe I felt shitty from staying up all night, and all the next day? Don't know of any bad trips either, but would say first trip is best taken in the company of other drug users, more fun, and could keep someone from thinking they are having a bad trip, going to the E.R. getting the cops called on them, ect.
Or better yet if your not already amongst the phsycadelic lot, don't mess with stuff you know nothing about, dangers abound.
Not the advice Timothy Leary would give, but I'm drug free and much more conservative nowdays.
In a non-combative way,
John

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by tommyD on Mar 10^th, 2002, 7:34am

In the old days, it was commen for dealers to lace LSD with amphetamines, which could be why you stayed up all the next day. And probably why you felt so shitty afterwards. PCP is/was another favorite adulterant, tho more often sold as "THC" or "mescaline." Used to be a foundation in Phoenix that kept track of the actual contents of street drugs. The reports were truly frightening.

Then or now, you can never be sure if street drugs are what they're claimed to be.

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by Flash on Mar 11^th, 2002, 6:21am

IT's hard to adulterate LSD since the dose is somewhere in the region of 50ug, a level at which even a nerve agent doesn't cause any ill effects. Virtually every other substance is dosed between 5mg - 1000mg.

Adulterated LSD is simply selling something else and calling it LSD. In reality it probably contains no LSD. If it doesn't come on paper then assume it isn't LSD. If it does come on paper then it can't be adulterated because there isn't sufficent mass on the paper to add anything other than LSD.

LSD is proven to be one of the least toxic substances out there. It is a very very safe drug. It doesn't drive people insane, but isn't something that an unabalanced person whould use, because it may tip the scales. I had a nervous breakdown a couple of years before using LSD and I'm still sane. Either that or I'm a madman that thinks he's me. You decide.

The come down from LSD depends on how frequently you take it. Infrequently usually brings a very pleasnant come down. Too frequently and the come down may be a little depressing.

Like every other drug LSD can be taken at different doses. The dose to combat CH is a threshhold dose, about 1/4 of a street hit. Just cut the paper square into 4 using a pair of small sharp scissors.

LSD may be effective for those that mushrooms have failed. The drug has a bad rep that it really doesn't deserve.

Flash

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by chjohn on Mar 12^th, 2002, 7:35pm

Yeh!!

What he said...
John ;D

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 13^th, 2002, 1:54am

on 03/08/02 at 19:36:04, chjohn wrote:

Cluster headache attacks are neurologically induced hell that alter brain chemistry.
You have altered feelings in your mind and body. Time and months appear to move very slowly. You cry at about anything and see the color drain out of your life.
When things move, it's often your spouse moving out. You can become very paranoid, frightened easily and concerned about flipping out.

on 03/08/02 at 19:36:04, chjohn wrote:

The trip can last 6 hours, or more, and the next day you feel shitty, can't sleep well, and your stomach is very uncomfortable.

The cycle can last months or more and the next day you feel shitty about your lot in life, can't sleep at all and your stomach is empty from not eating in days.

on 03/08/02 at 19:36:04, chjohn wrote:

Although the trip is only half a day or less, it seems that it took a long time for my thinking to become entirely normal again.

Although the cycles lasted for years, it seems that my thinking will never become entirely normal again.

on 03/08/02 at 19:36:04, chjohn wrote:

I don't recommend acid for anything, not worth experimenting with. Not to mention the legal, risks, a very serious crime, possestion alone is a felony in most states.
John

I don't recommend cluster headaches for anything. It's worth experimenting with everything. Not to mention the lost years, jailed in my own home.

My choices were the Gamma Knife, Radiofrequency Trigeminal Rhizotomy, Microvascular Decompression, suicide and mushrooms/acid.
Do I put a permanent end to the pain, do permanent damage to my body with radiation or holes drilled in my head, or do I chose to experiment with a drug that was banned about the same time in history that they wouldn't allow a male and female to appear on tv, fully clothed, talking, on a bed? Banned at a time when everyone using these drugs were advocating ending a war or losing their lives in the war.

Do I eat a few mushrooms, a quarter hit of acid, or take more than a few rads of radiation on my brain?

Wasn't a difficult decision after doing all the research.

I fully understand people not trying this method. There are many reasonable reasons.

The government not only allows you to drill holes in your head or apply radiation to your brain, but approves of it. But won't allow you to eat a mushroom.
1% of people undergoing Microvascular Decompression die on the operating table. I can get an appointment for the Gamma Knife in 15 minutes. My doctor can't even discuss mushrooms!!! Which is safer?

JMHO
Not pickin on ya chjohn, just offered me an opportunity to rant a bit! Thanks.

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by kim on Mar 13^th, 2002, 11:19am

I aso have used acid recrationally in the past (over 20 years ago) and the experience still brings a smile to my face; however, I cannot IMAGING being on ACID and having a ch attack. Unimaginable. kim

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by chjohn on Mar 16^th, 2002, 7:51pm

Funny!! No really. And point well taken, I just don't want to see any "normally straight (drug wise)" folks go to jail, lose the house, lose the kids, ect.
I really enjoyed the acid, especially when injested in the company of silly freaks. But the legal entanglements cannot be ignored by any reasoning individual.
I would not be surprised if L.S.D. might stop a cycle, but there is always much criticism, and controversy anytime a study is suggested using the drug.
I don't know how they treat C.H. in jail but I bet is is worse than the way it is treated out in the real world.
Due caution is well advised.
No longer halucigenic,
John

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by eyes_afire on Mar 16^th, 2002, 10:10pm

How do the legal risks differ for 'shrooms?

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by eyes_afire on Mar 16^th, 2002, 10:11pm

How do the legal risks differ for 'shrooms?

Title: Let's not forget....
Post by Ueli on Mar 16^th, 2002, 11:29pm

Let's not forget that LSD was discovered by Dr. Albert Hofmann in the 1930's in his quest to improve on the time honored ergot.

LSD was used successfully for 20 years to treat migraines (and there were some good results for CH too). Then in the 1960's one Timothy Leary started to exploit and propagate the psychedelic properties of LSD and with this pissed off the authorities who rather liked to see people on a trip to Vietnam. With the ostracizing of its recreational use, the DEA threw out with the bath water also the proven medical uses of LSD.

Nobody ever beat up wife and children under the influence of LSD, nor did anyone cause a carnage through reckless driving nor cause damage to his own liver - quite contrary to the 'legal drug' alcohol. The DEA sticks to this narrow minded ideology from the middle of the last century to justify its self perpetuating existence, bringing nothing more than a vast sink for tax money. I cannot see why some self-proclaimed 'guardians of public health' should prevent me to use some proven treatment for my rather refractory disease. After all, do you always stick strictly to the speed limit?

But even less can I understand the reason of some posters on this board to repeat all the horror stories, urban legends and blatant lies disseminated by 'good meaning' people, who begrudge others a happy trip and rather want them indulge in alcohol (and committing rape and other atrocities under its influence). And to those who don't see the difference of taking half a 'recreational' dose (or even less) of LSD or shrooms in an attempt to kick the ass of clusters against their indulging in psychedelics back in college time I say: Why the heck don't you look at the gigantic pool of knowledge assembled by the oldtimers of the 'clique' before you post you half-assed opinion on the subject ???

Before dismounting from the soap box, I'd like to recommend to everybody to read Albert Hofmann's account on the discovery of LSD. Write "my problem child" into any search engine and you get hundreds of links. This is interesting even to hard liners, it gives an insight of pharmaceutical research of 80 years ago.

;D Ueli

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by JIM on Mar 17^th, 2002, 1:54pm

[b][/b]RIGHT ON UELI !!

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by JIM on Mar 17^th, 2002, 1:55pm

[b][/b]RIGHT ON UELI !!

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by eyes_afire on Mar 17^th, 2002, 6:06pm

Preach it brother Ueli! Excellent post. It's not whether I agree or not (I do), instead I like your clarity, logic, and conviction. Very persuasive.

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by eyes_afire on Mar 17^th, 2002, 6:07pm

Preach it brother Ueli! Excellent post. It's not whether I agree or not (I do), instead I like your clarity, logic, and conviction. Very persuasive.

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 18^th, 2002, 12:19pm

on 03/16/02 at 19:51:37, chjohn wrote:

I don't know how they treat C.H. in jail but I bet is is worse than the way it is treated out in the real world.
Due caution is well advised.
No longer halucigenic,
John

I guess you haven't read much about the prison system or spent any time there, but I'll bet it's easier to get shrooms and acid IN jail than Out!
Not that I'd want to find out, nor would I want to know the "price" of said relief......LOL

That said, I believe that Federal Guidelines (for those of us in the US) for mushrooms are the same for pot.
If you are found with 1 oz. of dried shrooms, it's the same penalties as 1 oz. of pot.
Depending on the circumstances, you could be charged with "manufacturing for the purpose of sale" and each state may have their own agenda, but federal guidelines should prevail.

OTOH, if someone tried to take away the shrooms that my dog uses for his clusters, I'd be up on much loftier charges.....ie, manslaughter.

I can understand some people shying away from shrooms/acid due to fears of prosecution or fears of the "old" reports of chromosomal derangement.
But, I submit that I feel my chroms have been so deranged by 20 years of daily "prescription" drugs such as sansert, they can't be harmed any more by bi-yearly shrooms.
(talk about deranged..just look at some of the members here that have "never" done shrooms ;-) :P

Here is a snipet of a letter from one of the leading cluster doctors in the US.....

"However lets pretend this is all just theoretical, except that I am happy as I am for any of my patient when they get relief regardless of how or by whom, psilocin almost certainly is acting as a serotinergic agent based on the pharmacology of the family of compounds, after all the chemical structure of LSD and Sansert are nearly identical as well. And the location of action is almost certainly on the hypothalamus based on the other effects and the parasympathetic modulation that is occurring there related to cluster headache. The competitive interaction of other compounds such as DHE which also have avid receptor affinity in this region would make psilocin less active potentially if its receptor affinity is less than DHE that is why the need for the drug free holiday. The issues that really become bigger and more problematic with the compound relate to the lack of characterization related to specific receptor affinities. That is the whole issues why patients should not take ergot or DHE or triptans or Sansert on a daily basis for long periods of time since the other receptors they bind to can give you a stroke or heart attack. Of course you are past child rearing so you don't have to confront the issue of chromosomal derangement which occur with some of the related compounds in the class and it appears at least not to have the acute neuro-toxicity issues of some the drugs that have become popular among the "clubbers" over the past few decades that can wipe out whole serotinergic systems permanently."

In other words, I'd be more concerned with what DHE, Sansert and the triptans are doing to my body (not to mention the clusters themselves) than shrooms. But then, that's just MY opinion. Until we get someone to actually begin clinical trials again, we're on our own.

Pink the Deranged!

Title: Or
Post by Bob_P on Mar 18^th, 2002, 1:47pm

You could worry about the shrooms:

http://pahlow.net/ch/shroom_toxicity.htm

and not worry about the triptans:

http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/medications/imitrex_rebound.htm

Whats the bid deal here? You wanna do shrooms, do shrooms. You wanna do triptans, do triptans.

Title: Re: Or
Post by pinksharkmark on Mar 18^th, 2002, 3:14pm

on 03/18/02 at 13:47:55, Bob_P wrote:

You could worry about the shrooms:

http://pahlow.net/ch/shroom_toxicity.htm

Interesting reading. Some of those folks were certainly more adventuresome than I ever was back in my wild and crazy youth. I can't even imagine eating 50 mushrooms, let alone 200.

Of course, we have no way of knowing if their difficulties were related to psilocybin, since, as the abstract is very careful to point out:

Quote:

Perhaps the biggest confounding factor in the assessment of adverse reactions to these mushrooms is the large percentage of sham Psilocybe mushrooms sold on the black market which are laced with adulterants. In a 1985 analysis of 886 illegally sold mushrooms claimed to be Psilocybe, only 28% were actually Psilocybes while 31% were common store mushrooms or other varieties laced with LSD or PCP, and 37% were inert.

Observe that the symptoms of those who were hospitalized read word for word like a PCP overdose, particularly in the case of the one young man who reacted violently to the hospital staff. PCP ("Angel Dust") is definitely nasty stuff. I recommend staying away from it. As for the question of "other varieties", I have no doubt that someone who ate an Amanita phalloides would have a rough go of it.

pinky

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by Bob_P on Mar 18^th, 2002, 4:17pm

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you could justify one over the other for any number of reasons (interesting thing about the internet, you can always find info to back up any stance you take on a a matter).

The reality is that none of this, shrooms, acid, triptans, ergots, etc. is probably going to do you any harm. Every clusterhead needs to try everything that is available to find what works best for them. Try them all, make your decision and then don't rag on others for making theirs.

Title: Re: Acid???
Post by Pinkfloyd on Mar 19^th, 2002, 1:23am

on 03/18/02 at 16:17:35, Bob_P wrote:

I don't think anyone is "trying" to justify one treatment over another. Seems to me, just the opposite. People are trying to post "actual" experiences and letting the chips fall where they may. I didn't post some suspect website from the internet to back up my experience. I posted "my" experience, as have others.
As to finding out information about "any" treatment, online, I would suspect many people here do searches on meds every time they are prescribed a new one by their own doctors. Whats the difference between doing research on Imitrex and Mushrooms? When someone asks a question here about Sansert, what's wrong with responding with an Rx site on it? I've injested in excess of 50 different medications for clusters in 20 years. I don't have all the abstracts memorized. And if I did, I'd still give you the attribution.

on 03/18/02 at 16:17:35, Bob_P wrote:

The reality is that none of this, shrooms, acid, triptans, ergots, etc. is probably going to do you any harm. Every clusterhead needs to try everything that is available to find what works best for them. Try them all, make your decision and then don't rag on others for making theirs.

Well, if you do a search on the internet, :o, you'll find plenty of possible dangers on them all. Triptans have a very short history to rely upon....certainly much shorter than shrooms or ergots. Ergots, long term, certainly have a long list of dangers. Hey, I know I did damage to my lungs overusing O2 before the shrooms worked. When my doc found out how much I was using, he stopped my script. Choose your own poison.

I don't remember ragging on anyone for making a decision. We all know our bodies and situations better than anyone else. I wouldn't rag on anyone for not using shrooms any sooner than ragging on them for not trying sansert.

on 03/18/02 at 16:17:35, Bob_P wrote:

(taken from earlier post)
Whats the bid deal here? You wanna do shrooms, do shrooms. You wanna do triptans, do triptans. .

What's the big deal? I think the treatment of cluster headaches is a pretty big deal. At least to the people here.
I thought this was the place and the section of the MB to discuss treatments.
Where did you hear about the use of Triptans for clusters? From your doctor? From this list?
People certainly aren't going to get the info on shrooms/acid, for cluster treatment anywhere but here.
This at least seems to be the hub of the information disseminated.
Shouldn't people report personal success/failure stories about Topamax...Lithium.....Verapamil....shrooms?
How will people find out all the options you want them to try if they aren't posted here. How will they determine the best possible treatment available to them, if they don't see all the stories?

Are the stories just too upbeat for you? Do the people that report success with shrooms appear a little too excited about it's prospects? When people with clusters find something that works "for them" they like to trumpet it's cause. Are the shroom success stories any more enthusiastic than the Imitrex success stories.

This appears here more as a research study in progress than anything else. You are witness to the inner workings of such study. If you're using Imitrex successfully as an example, you most likely weren't privy to all the questions needed to be asked of the participants during the study. You just got a script for Imitrex and it worked or it didn't. You think the people in those studies, that reported failures, weren't asked a lot of questions to determine *why* it didn't work for them? Were they taking it right? When were they taking it in the headache cycle? How do you think they know to take triptans at the onset for best results, if they didn't ask these questions of the participants?

What's the big deal? How many people here are so satisfied with their treatment plan that they wouldn't like to find something better, if it's as safe or safer than what they are currently using? Only one way to find that out....no one is testing shrooms on rats.

Pink Shroom Rat