This is a continuation of Jonny's thread of "what the dems's want"  didn't want to hijack his thread anymore.

Ya know, when I was young and in my 20's I used to think abortion was OK.  Now I do not think that way.  Ya know why?  I have lived enough and have seen death, killed many animals and I have changed my thinking about life and nature.

I used to think nothing of shooting an animal.  Never did it for sport, only of pest control.  As I got older, it became harder to pull the trigger.  I allways did a direct head shot to make a quick kill.  As I got older and saw the extreem determination and tenaciousness (sp?) of mother nature, I have begun to change my mind about life in general.  

Life is pretty cheap if you look at it in the broad sense.  you can allways make another (human or animal) and some form of life will fill the void.  I have had animals on death's doorstep and just beyond (Zomie) live to grow and prosper....I have had healthy animals just die with no apparent reason.  

Now that I am older and have seen what nature dishes out I have come to the conclusion that life isn't cheap.  In the blink of an eye it , life can be snuffed out.  

I have no regret of exterminating violent killers.  Human or animal.  I do have a problem with abortion.  I think in early stages of pregnancy, it is OK to terminate it if it is the result of rape or bad genes.  (you know the child is doomed to a life of pain and suffering) beyond that, late termination of pgegnacy is wrong.  

If humans engage in reproductive activity, they should either prevent preagnancy or be willing to support the result.  I really have no sympathy with someone (women in this case) bitching about fucking around and then want to squirt a kid into the trashbasket.  it is just wrong.  You have a choice.....Would walk into a field of poison ivey and not take precaution?  Don't get me wrong, it is a males job too, but females are the incubator.

-P.

Is it freedom to have others regulate what we can or cannot do with our bodies, baby inside or not?  

It's a very prickly line that's drawn.  

There are always consequences to our actions, and personally, I am not the one they'll have to answer to eventually.  

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Although I would never want my child aborted, it really isn't my call.  It is called the right of choice.  The mother ultimately should have the right to decide.  Hypothetically, I could be the father (fat chance of THAT ever happening!) but it would still not be my decision.  It is hers.

No one should be able to force their beliefs and morals on another.

So, what I am saying is that I am against any of my offspring to be aborted, it should still be a person's right to choose what is best for themselves.  That being said, I am dead set against some of these bimbos that use abortion as a means of birth control, with multiple abortions!  Anyone can make a mistake, but you SHOULD learn from that mistake, and take steps to ensure that it never happens again.

This is a VERY touchy subject, but glad to see that it is being discussed.  I just hope and pray, that it CAN be discussed, and every one allowed to have their own opinion, without being ostricized for that opinion.

Chuck

If anybody here thinks that abortion is an easy decision, I suggest you go talk to the counselors at some of the clinics.

'darlin

If abortion rights is about the rights to do something to ones bodies, then tell me why suicide and assisted suicide is a crime. Dems say that they are out for the little guy, but yet they support the deaths of the littlest guys of them all.. Mel is right, actions have consequences, you play, you pay. Maybe not in this lifetime, but.......I am sure killing your baby is a hard decision, one that will weigh on ones conscience for the rest of their days.

In the case of incest or rape there may be justification (in my opinion) but I just can't see abortion in any other way being right. Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing, but there are just too many people who WANT babies and can't have them.

And yes, there is a choice. A woman does NOT have to get pregnant.

And yes, I've been to abortion clinics, homes for unwed mothers and seen backstreet abortions - none are a pretty site.

But it is legal and women do have a choice and until that is changed, it will continue and there's nothing my opinion can do about it.

As to the death penalty -- there are just some crimes that require it (in my opinion) and I live in a state that uses it for the purpose it was set out for.

Hugs BD

BarbaraD wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 1:57pm:

As to the death penalty --  I live in a state that uses it for the purpose it was set out for.

Ummmm ... If they use it for its intended purposes, WHY are YOU still around???

Chuck

(BAD Chuckie!!!  Bad, BAD, BAD!!)

I shouldn't do it but I'm helpless as you know.......  

If you are Catholic, I fully understand a position on abortion and the abolition of the death penalty. I have to say that I admire this consistency rather than picking and choosing. No one should like abortion. I don't but basically it's nobody's business and has always been around for those than can afford it. It's not at all new. It's wrecked politics and results in lots of unqualified legislators that get elected on pro life issues only and make things worse by having no idea of history other than attempts to demonize most women.

Years ago, I barely knew what abortion was and never heard it called that. Once it became something other than a moral issue, the whole world learned everything about it by pro-life zealots. These people in their attempts to vilify and scare people managed to explain the scores of abortion methods, who provides it, all the things that can happen if you are not careful, drugs, doctors, clinics, history, frequency, ways to do it yourself, make known people who will do it for nothing, what politicians to back to keep abortion legal, what states to go to for help, timing, who and how much quacks may charge for illegal and dangerous procedures, even information not readily known to some clinics and a doctor or two, and what doctors became targets for lunatics. It's pro-lifers that have brought out all this information in incredible detail with thousands of articles, literature and television programs so even people with little knowledge of it, know that it's an option and not as hard as it once was to obtain.  Yessir, what a job they have done to make it more common.

Once abortion is illegal, the frequency of partial birth abortion will increase. Poor or desperate women who want abortion will hide their pregnancy and try to do it themselves or likely use some unqualified help. There will be some truly frightening discoveries in dumpsters....along with a huge increase in deadly botched abortions leaving the remaining children in some families, homeless and some likely stuck with unqualified relatives and even some others that barely tolerate kids in the first place. There is a good case after all this new information provided my anti-abortion ranters...not pro-choicers, that making abortion information common for everybody can be a form of child abuse. Children, in this mess aren't likely to benefit from much visiting imprisoned parents either. These are just some of the consequences and this kind of thing won't make for well-adjusted kids. These things, for the most part, have been overlooked but made much more likely by the very groups that rant about protection of our children.

In short: Pre-birth, you name it, you got it. Pre-school: You're on your own but morally sound to pro-lifers.

Charlie

Mounting soapbox now.

I am not PRO abortion or ANTI abortion.  I don't like the idea of abortion in any terms.  However, I am for a mother's right to choose.  To CHOOSE being the key word.  

I agree, termination of a pregnancy in the last trimester is wrong unless it's because it risks the life of the mother, or the baby is deformed in some catastrophic way.  If the mother is healthy and the baby is healthy, then Mommy has had 6 months to decide whether she wants this child or not.  Too late.  Tough!

In the first(preferably) or second trimester of pregnancy, most women, unless they are woefully ignorant of their own bodies, know that they are pregnant.  Given their individual circumstances, rape, incest, six kids already, no money, have the right to terminate that pregnancy if they so CHOOSE, for whatever reason they so CHOOSE.

This issue has been hashed out for years ever since Roe v Wade.  I'm old enough to remember before Roe v Wade when women took matters in to their own hands by going to backstreet butchers for an abortion, sometimes leading to their own death, or sterility.  

This has gone one since God created humans.  But laws have been made by men almost since God created humans.  Until a man is placed in the position of carrying in his belly an unwanted, can't pay for, can't raise the child situation - let him keep his mouth shut - and that goes for all political Presidential candidates and Congress.

It's the woman's right to CHOOSE - period!

Off Soapbox now.

Sandy

:-X

wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 4:10pm:

:-X

Good choice, Brew.

S

BarbaraD wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 1:57pm:

In the case of incest or rape there may be justification (in my opinion) but I just can't see abortion in any other way being right. Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing, but there are just too many people who WANT babies and can't have them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes there are alot of people who want baby's and can't have them but you know what? Any woman is damned if she has an abortion and damned if she gives a child away.

Everyone is so quick to jump on their moral soapbox with how terrible "she" is for either killing a child or giving it away that "she" is that she is nothing but cannon fodder in either case.

There are far too many situations where people who should never have had children have had them and abused them and far too many again where there were 100's of children in orphanages because people didn't want a girl/boy/redhead.

I personally don't think I could cope inside if I had an abortion, it horrifies me, it revolts me, it scares me but thats me, thats my choice and that is why I am and always will be pro choice. It's not my place to make other's decisions for them.

Before we had legal abortion we had plenty of back street abortionists. Criminalise it and we will again. Is that what you want women to go through?

I don't like the idea of abortion, I'd do my damndest to talk my child out of one but, it it was her choice, then I'd support her all the way.



Quote:

Don't get me wrong, it is a males job too,

How very big of you


Quote:

but females are the incubator

and how very revealing.

This is too tough of a subject for me to comment in an open forum.  If you are tremendously interested in my humble opinion, please call me or PM me and I will do my best to bring my points forward.

Ray

Choosing to put pot and any other illegal drug in your body is illegal.

Choosing to sell a kidney from your body is illegal.

Terminating your own life is illegal.

All three are victimless. All are your own choices.

Being poor or ignorant allows you to kill an innocent child. Sure go ahead. Hey its your body, your choice. Whatever rocks your world. Tell yourself what ever you need to to justify your actions so that you can sleep at night. And being a man means you have no right or say whatso ever, except the right to pay 18 years of child support if she Chooses to keep the child.

Funny thing, I have never heard a pregnant woman refer to her baby as a fetus. No one says I have a fetus growing inside my body.

But then again abortion is a great way to control the population, 15 million since Row VS Wade, And anyone who kills a baby really ought not to have one anyway, those kids are probably better off anyway. Keep up the good work ladies.

Mat wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 5:32pm:

. Keep up the good work ladies.

Nice- real nice!!!   >:(

great thread. there is allways ' the accident ', given the choice, i would rather be born in to a loveing family, or at least a fair world, alas, for an accident, lifes often not like that. and then the 'accidents' to take shit for the rest of its life for being an under achiever. removing the choice would be a great mistake, we have to find a way to grow resonable, responsible adults. 'in my opinion'. andrew.

ClusterChuck wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 11:12am:

No one should be able to force their beliefs and morals on another.

Nuff said.......is there anything here to be talked about?

I really hate this subject but here goes.

I dislike the idea of abortion when it is used to just get rid of baby after baby when there are so many contreseptives out there it is disgusting.

I do however think abortion is needed by some, rape is a obviouse one also no contreseptive is 100% and it can happen both my children where conseved using contresetives but they where in no way a mistake so if your contreseptive fails then you should have the right to choose, there is also the poor if someone knows they cant give that child a good upbringing and  they know the child will suffer then please I beg of you to choose there is already to many suffering children in the world

I believe there should be forced abortions in some cases if a mother has had 6 children and they all got taken by social servces due to abuse and misstreatment and they get pregnant again they should be forced to termanate by law also if a woman is married to a abuser or pedophile she should be given the choice leave the marrage or termanate your pregnancy, I may sound harsh but there are far to many children already suffering in this world.

Regards
Brian

BrianJ wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 6:15pm:

I believe there should be forced abortions in some cases

Your brain dead, right Brian?

Firstly mate read my reasons if you had seen and lived the stuff i have you would agree oh and btw i dont call anyone on here for there opinions weather i agree or not so please dont take this to the level of insults this is a discission forum not a place to abuse others thank you

BrianJ wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 6:37pm:

Firstly mate read my reasons if you had seen and lived the stuff i have you would agree oh and btw i dont call anyone on here for there opinions weather i agree or not so please dont take this to the level of insults this is a discission forum not a place to abuse others thank you

Do you really feel that I abused you?

I have posted here every day for the last nine years....and your going to tell me whats what?

Sorry, Sir........you are brain dead!  :D

Dude please where did i tell you whats what ?? oh i get it you`re a old timer here so i have to agree and if i dont i am brain dead ok tell ya what mate you dont agree with me thats fine i hope you never have to find a abused child starving to in a flat when you go to work
in its own mess crying for its mother who was on holiday in spain for 2 weeks but hey there ya go lets, let them have children and let them children die from starvation only wanting there mother im sure its better to have not lived atall.

I did miss a part out befor sorry my mistake my comments where a last resort thing if they had the chance to get pregnant, if it was my choice  any abusive indevidual should be sterilized by law so they cant produce life anyhow

i dont see my self as brain dead i am just part of a violant ignorant self obsessed race that cares for nothing but there own well being

Oh and yes i consider being called brain dead a abusive comment and i will not lower my self to that on this forum or any other so have a nice day and PF wishes to you

Brian

PF wishes to you also.  :-*

I liked Brew's reply.  It's a bad subject here and as you can see, I'm guilty. The topic brings out the worst in just about everybody.

It's complicated. Our leaders should treat us with some respect. Don't mistake stark simplicity for wisdom. It's a better approach.

That's pretty scarce these days.

Charlie

Kudos to Helen and quite a few others who illustrate the valid point that pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.

I had a teacher in high school who told me about a friend of hers in NYC in the days before Roe vs. Wade.  Her friend died from a uterine hemmorage caused by a botched back alley abortion.

Had a cousin who got pregnant and it's a blessed miracle that her child was born healthy, because her parents used every *witches brew* known to man to get her to spontaneously abort.

Paul,
I thought that a man with your intelligence could do better than this,


Paul98 wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 10:42am:

I really have no sympathy with someone (women in this case) bitching about fucking around and then want to squirt a kid into the trashbasket.  it is just wrong. -P.

BrianJ,
I may not agree with Jonny's eloquence, but I do agree with his sentiment.  Forced abortion is odious and smacks of Hitlerism.  Wouldn't it be much easier to forcibly remove the children and then sterilize the mother (still smacks of Hitlerism, but not as much so).

Thats right, pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.

Ya gotta love the typical right wing bumper stickers though.  The one on the left says "Bomb them all, let God sort them out".  The one on the right says "Choose Life"

I find it kind of surprising that the constitution party's official stance is against abortion.  Personal freedom is the base of the party.

Quote:

BrianJ, I may not agree with Jonny's eloquence, but I do agree with his sentiment.  Forced abortion is odious and smacks of Hitlerism.  Wouldn't it be much easier to forcibly remove the children and then sterilize the mother (still smacks of Hitlerism, but not as much so).

Hi there

In my second reply that is what i stated about the sterilization i agree my thoughts are harsh and i hate to have to think that way i am in no way pro abortion but i am againsed suffering and i have seen suffering in the most extreme ways if you read my second reply you will see that, i should have worded my reply better the first time but i didnt and i have added to it in my second reply im sure noone would disagree that it would be better to have not lived than to be neglected and starve to death i love life and i am pro life but i am also pro quality of life some lives are just not worth living

regards PF wishes to you all
Brian

Charlie wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 7:37pm:

I liked Brew's reply.  It's a bad subject here and as you can see, I'm guilty. The topic brings out the worst in just about everybody. It's complicated. Our leaders should treat us with some respect. Don't mistake stark simplicity for wisdom. It's a better approach. That's pretty scarce these days. Charlie

I wish I was as wise as Charlie. I apologies if my comments offended anyone. While in my early 20's a girlfriend of mine aborted without my knowledge. It wasn't until we broke up that I learned of it. I don't have a child of my own, and the knowledge that the one chance that I did have was thrown away the way that it was cuts me to the bone. I regret my words, but not the feelings behind them.

Be well.

1. When does a baby's heart start beating?

-Modern technology can detect a baby's heartbeat at 18-21 days after conception. That is only 4-7 days after most women miss a period and begin to suspect they are pregnant.

2. When are a baby's brain waves detectable?

-Six weeks (40 days) after conception signals from the baby's brain can be detected. Dream patterns have been discovered around the eighth or ninth week.

3. When does a baby begin independent movement?

-At about the sixth week, the baby in the womb can move spontaneously: kicking, swimming, jumping and stretching. This is long before the mother will feel any movement.

4. When can a baby begin to feel?

-A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by about the eighth or tenth week.

5. It is alive, but is it a person?

-Once a human egg is fertilized by sperm, there now exists a new human being. All of the information about the baby's sex, hair color, eye color and much more is present from that moment. Nothing else will be added to this little person except time and nutrition.

OK, I’ll take a try at this quandary.

I was raised Catholic and went to parochial schools from 3-8th grade and so have several thoughts on the particulars of the matter.

First off, it is an unsavory topic as Charle has pointed out and he is right in saying that the topic has totally ruined politics by driving a wedge into the voters thereby keeping the right man for the job from the job. Being able to achieve nothing has become the stay these days!

Now when it comes to life there is a compassion factor involved and most all people have lost the ability to discern the difference between compassion and survival. If an animal is a pest or taking your food, destroying your property ect., then its open season to me and I’ll be the first one to sign up for firing squad duty!

I do believe in the death penalty and think it should be done in a timely manor.
If I were on the block, I would never let them kill me with IV’s and catheters strapped to a gurney. If given a choice, I would sign up for the Gary Gilmore plan.

The problem with abortion is no one can decide the matter for everyone, and everyone cannot decide for the individual. I personally disagree with abortion by D&C (unless the mother will die, and they usually can take them cesarean section today), and any doctor that aborts a fetus in the second and third trimesters should be stoned to death!

I also think a woman should have the right to a first term abortion even though I disagree with it, I would not stop some one else with my moral ineptitude.

The main problem is that it is up to the individual states to set the laws locally and the law changes at the state line allowing for many misdeeds to occur.

The women who pushed this in the 60’ are the same ones wishing they had some grandchildren today so in a way many of them have changed in their thinking also.

So, I say if it’s that important, get it on the national referendum and vote on it again.
Then when it comes out 45-55, maybe our generation get past this dead issue and move on to making the world a little bit better for the children we have now.

Roland……..

For me, believing or not believing in abortion is not the point. The point is, I would not interfere with a person's choice to do anything. A woman has a choice, and I would hope that there would be some thought before a man and a woman engage in sex,  and consider birth control, and the possible results of not using it.

That said, even though a man has some responsibility towards that, it is up to a woman to assume responsibility for birth control.

Now, of course, there are other circumstances, like rape, or incest, that are out of a woman's control. As a woman is the one who becomes pregnant, and there are many considerations to be thought of, I am not going to be one to choose for her. It is her ultimate choice, and no one else's.

Legislation is not necessary to try to control this. How can you possibly interfere with someone's choice, personal choice?  And if you try to make abortion illegal, that won't stop them. It will just make them more dangerous, maybe more expensive, and more deadly. Is that what pro-lifer's want?

And as far as that goes, pro-lifers who are against abortion, because in their minds, it kills babies, it is the absolute height of hypocrisy that these same pro-lifers kill doctors that perform abortions. And bomb abortion clinics, injuring or killing the people inside. Yes, that is pro-life alright.

Pro-choice  does not mean pro-abortion. It means you are free to CHOOSE. And that is the most important thing. That is a basic right we all have.

ClusterChuck wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 11:12am:

This is a VERY touchy subject, but glad to see that it is being discussed.  I just hope and pray, that it CAN be discussed, and every one allowed to have their own opinion, without being ostricized for that opinion. Chuck

Nice thought, Chuck, but it's too bad that hasn't happened. Someone has to get personal, and the thread degrades.

Like all threads like this they will get heated and people will get personal sadly it is human nature i wish this thread had not went that way has im sure we all have valid points but i guess my post  created bad feeling unintentionly, i stick by what i wrote as i believe there is enough suffering in the world with out the most vunrable having to deal with it i am sorry if i offended anyones beliefs but the situation i explained in my 2nd reply is true and i have to live with that memory and many other bad things i have seen and lived and wish i hadnt anyhow i could have worded it better and i am sorry for offending i am not brain dead i just feel strongly about children and it hurts me deeply to see them suffer needlesly

PF wishes to you all
Brian

I would never judge anyone that had to make this choice, whether they decide to keep their child or abort.  

Abortion is not right for me. and my beliefs, I never thought about it, because in my eyes the choice was already made by a power larger than me.  I was a mom at 17 and gave birth to a hero...

Not everyone feels this way, and I understand all situations are different.

ree

Thank you, Ree.

Regarding this thread, I try to resist posting on this topic.  A person's view on this topic will most likely change over the course of their life, and we all have our reasons for believing what we believe.  The drag is, if you start to believe a thing with a beating heart is a real life, you have to start applying the same value to it as other lives, be they starving kids in Darfur or your own family.  If you believe life has value, and life starts at conception, you could legitimately be called a hypocrite if you don't defend the fetus as vigorously as you would defend your own family.

I had a girlfriend at 18 who aborted a pregnancy.  When I think about it now, I feel shame and guilt for condoning the murder of a life.  I'll feel that way until I die.  Who knows if that pregnancy would have resulted in a live birth.  I do know we ended it by choice.  I do know I was glad we could do that at the time.  I do know I now feel like I did a horrible, unforgivable thing.

I do not want government making these decisions.  On the other hand, when millions of people are being murdered, I expect my government to notice and consider appropriate action.  The framers of our constitution saw fit to spell out certain rights that would be the bare minimum to ensure our leaders didn't extend their powers too far.

It's a tough one to figure out.  For now, I am content to vote pro-life and see where the country takes us.  I don't see the issue as the driving force in my political views.  Sometimes I wonder if being passive about the (estimated) 40 Million lives snuffed out so far since Roe v. Wade is a betrayal of my core beliefs, but I'm not yet frothing at the mouth about it.  And I don't presume to tell anyone what they should think about it.  My views are my views, not yours, and explaining my thinking isn't the same as me telling you what to think.

-Shawn

My neighbor is an Episcopal minister. Many years ago I agreed to help his wife volunteer at their pregnancy clinic during my summer break. The girls took a pregnancy test, results were back shortly but we kept them there for an hour counseling chastity, knowing results were negative (the girls didn't know yet). They already had sex! In my view point, this was the time to counsel birth control.  If the results were positive we counseled adoption. There are so many Christian organizations out there ready to help. Abortion was never an option. If none of this was acceptable and they had their heart set on keeping the baby, then they helped the mom for the coming months. We gave them donated furniture, took them to appointments, ect. I was very frustrated at the chastitiy attitude, although I understood being a chuch organization there probably was no option. I did not like the attitude of no abortions, even in the case of rape. They said a women who aborts a baby who has been concieved from rape now has to endure a double abuse. I personally can not imagine what it would be like to have life grow in me that was conceived in such a violent way. As much as I was impressed by the help and assistance, I shortly quit because of these anti abortion and lack of birth control counseling. That experience will stay with me for the rest of my life!

Charlotte

deltadarlin wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2008 at 12:15pm:

If anybody here thinks that abortion is an easy decision, I suggest you go talk to the counselors at some of the clinics. 'darlin

I took a female friend into a clinic for the proceedure.  (not my child) and I can say it was not fun. I saw the anguish she went through and really felt sorry for her pain.  It was her choice.  I feel thatlife is pretty precious but there are needs that make the final decision.

Seeing a young woman go through this proceedure was painful to me.  

-P.

yipes !!! My lovely wife of 19 years and I just took a little weekend get-away in celebration of my birthday and our anniversary, and I get home to see this thread. I gotta say, i can find "something" to agree with in EVERY post! and something to DISagree with in every post. Folks, this is a fruitless argument, we might as well debate the prettiest color. As long as there is sex,,, there will be abortions, legal or not. Love, religion, sex, "morals", these things will ALWAYS cause wars and people will ALWAYS die. This is the world we live in, Jesus couldnt change it, and Hitler couldnt either.!! Live your life to the best of YOUR ability, treat others the way you would have them treat you, and,,,,,,,"smile, laugh, and be naked as much and as often as you can!!!!!!!!!                  Tuck

tuck wrote on Aug 24^th, 2008 at 9:32am:

yipes !!! My lovely wife of 19 years and I just took a little weekend get-away in celebration of my birthday and our anniversary, and I get home to see this thread. I gotta say, i can find "something" to agree with in EVERY post! and something to DISagree with in every post. Folks, this is a fruitless argument, we might as well debate the prettiest color. As long as there is sex,,, there will be abortions, legal or not. Love, religion, sex, "morals", these things will ALWAYS cause wars and people will ALWAYS die. This is the world we live in, Jesus couldnt change it, and Hitler couldnt either.!! Live your life to the best of YOUR ability, treat others the way you would have them treat you, and,,,,,,,"smile, laugh, and be naked as much and as often as you can!!!!!!!!!                  Tuck

You are a smart man Tuck i love your reply rep to you matey

This is such a hard subject to voice an opinion on because it is murder  and people do not like it to be stated as such, hide it under the word abortion. no matter what the reason, right or wrong a baby is being killed because it is not wanted, it should be seen as that

I am like  Paul, in my younger days I agreed with  abortion (murder), it was a womans right to do as she pleased with her body, no questions asked, if she wanted to use abortion (murder) as contreception so be it.

Now I have grown up I do not agree with it at all, with special exceptions, life choice between mother or child, why should both die if one can be saved.  otherwise  I cannot agree at all, even for rape, the child can be adopted out.  Once pregnant there is no easy way out of the situation, it cannot be washed away , pretended it never happened, so why kill the life of the unborn baby for the mistake of the mother and father.
There is always other options and help available,.

I am for life - live and let live

we will all answer to the big man some day.  I'll leave the judging to him.  

It's not often said but the real goal is to end family planning and contraception. There are a number of Congressmen that would like to get rid of the pill.  Basically, if it feels good: it's bad.

Charlie

Charlie wrote on Aug 24^th, 2008 at 4:09pm:

It's not often said but the real goal is to end family planning and contraception. There are a number of Congressmen that would like to get rid of the pill.  Basically, if it feels good: it's bad. Charlie

You ain't kiddin'!  Just look at the government's (current) stance on teaching Abstinence Only to children/kids, th e*virginity* pledges that some kids are making (what has been found here, is that yes, some do stay *virgins*, however, they engage in other forms of sex that are more more dangerous and have may just have larger concerns).

deltadarlin wrote on Aug 24^th, 2008 at 7:16pm:

Charlie wrote on Aug 24th, 2008 at 4:09pm: It's not often said but the real goal is to end family planning and contraception. There are a number of Congressmen that would like to get rid of the pill.  Basically, if it feels good: it's bad. Charlie You ain't kiddin'!  Just look at the government's (current) stance on teaching Abstinence Only to children/kids, th e*virginity* pledges that some kids are making (what has been found here, is that yes, some do stay *virgins*, however, they engage in other forms of sex that are more more dangerous and have may just have larger concerns).

This was my point earlier when I stopped helping out at the clinic. I just couldn't understand how abstinence could be the focus on a girl who was already sexually active. The girls who had negative pregnancy tests sure were lucky and I really felt it was our responsibility to make them more careful with birth control, not tell them don't do it!

Charlotte

Paul98 wrote on Aug 24^th, 2008 at 8:38am:

deltadarlin wrote on Aug 23rd, 2008 at 12:15pm: If anybody here thinks that abortion is an easy decision, I suggest you go talk to the counselors at some of the clinics. 'darlin I took a female friend into a clinic for the proceedure.  (not my child) and I can say it was not fun. I saw the anguish she went through and really felt sorry for her pain.  It was her choice.  I feel thatlife is pretty precious but there are needs that make the final decision. Seeing a young woman go through this proceedure was painful to me.   -P.

Hmmm so lets see now, if I say YOUR friend is a no good little tramp who uses abortion as birth control - and remember I'm using YOUR opening statement here... and SHE "squirted her baby down the toilet"... how will you like that?

Or is it different when it's someone else?

cash5542 wrote on Aug 24^th, 2008 at 7:22pm:

deltadarlin wrote on Aug 24th, 2008 at 7:16pm: Charlie wrote on Aug 24th, 2008 at 4:09pm: It's not often said but the real goal is to end family planning and contraception. There are a number of Congressmen that would like to get rid of the pill.  Basically, if it feels good: it's bad. Charlie You ain't kiddin'!  Just look at the government's (current) stance on teaching Abstinence Only to children/kids, th e*virginity* pledges that some kids are making (what has been found here, is that yes, some do stay *virgins*, however, they engage in other forms of sex that are more more dangerous and have may just have larger concerns). This was my point earlier when I stopped helping out at the clinic. I just couldn't understand how abstinence could be the focus on a girl who was already sexually active. The girls who had negative pregnancy tests sure were lucky and I really felt it was our responsibility to make them more careful with birth control, not tell them don't do it! Charlotte

I hear that point, MamaChar.  Taxpayers fund the clinics (or the non-profit churches(wink-wink)) and the clinics are supposed to do the parenting.  
A parent should know where their kid is, and reduce the possibly of drug/alcohol/sex use.  You certainly cant have the clinic calling all these kids to make sure they are home and safe every nite.
Parents are abstinent.  Therein lies the problem.

wrote on Aug 24^th, 2008 at 8:07pm:

Paul98 wrote on Aug 24th, 2008 at 8:38am: deltadarlin wrote on Aug 23rd, 2008 at 12:15pm: If anybody here thinks that abortion is an easy decision, I suggest you go talk to the counselors at some of the clinics. 'darlin I took a female friend into a clinic for the proceedure.  (not my child) and I can say it was not fun. I saw the anguish she went through and really felt sorry for her pain.  It was her choice.  I feel thatlife is pretty precious but there are needs that make the final decision. Seeing a young woman go through this proceedure was painful to me.   -P. Hmmm so lets see now, if I say YOUR friend is a no good little tramp who uses abortion as birth control - and remember I'm using YOUR opening statement here... and SHE "squirted her baby down the toilet"... how will you like that? Or is it different when it's someone else?

She should have used protection.  It would have saved her a lot of anguish.

-P.

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Charlie

I had a friend years ago, I was 17, and she was 20. She was dating the man of her dreams, and they were having sex, using birth control. Well, once, it didn't work, and she got pregnant. She was elated, she wanted to marry this man, and have children with him.

However, her mother didn't agree. Her mother said that she had different plans for her daughter, and that marrying this man and having kids (or having a child, and getting married, then having a family) were not the plans she had for her.

My friend hid the pregnancy from her until after the first trimester, feeling she was safe to continue the pregnancy. Wrong. Her mother, after finding out, set up an abortion for her, and had to do it at a hospital out of town, as no one at any of the 3 hospitals here in the city would do it after the 1st trimester.

She lost the baby, and lost her boyfriend, due to a decision made by her mother. Where was her choice in the matter? She still lived at home, and would have been out on her own, with no support. And her mother ruled the roost, not to mention my girlfriend's life. She couldn't say no to her mother.

She never forgave her mother for that, nor herself, I imagine, for not standing up to her. She then met a man with her mother's approval, got married and had 3 kids. Was unhappily married for years. I never understood what her mother was thinking, or how she could possibly do that to her daughter, who was an adult, and very happy with the man she was with.

How's that for choice, and lack of it?

Paul, you have guts posting about Abortion here...that's where the Badass part comes in.   :-?

I am fully in agreement though.  However, I grew up with a mother that used to perform abortions at home because women wanted them, period.  A friend of mine died as a result of one when I was 20.  

I was always taught to believe that the baby is just a "ball of cells" during the first 3 months.  Yeah right - When I was pregnant, I saw my baby's heartbeat at 3 weeks.  At 15 weeks I had an intravaginal sonogram - I actually saw the baby sleeping and as soon as they put the instrument inside of me, it woke up startled.  I eventually lost the baby.

I just tell my friends constantly to use contraception-.  They even have patches now instead of the pill that last 3-4 months.  There's nothing like the guilt of having aborted your baby.  I've spoken to men who cry like babies at the memory of what they did.  And for most women, I think it breaks their spirit.  They're never the same - from what I've seen anyway.

When my sister went to abort Crystal, I went with her, and was shocked to see women in their 2nd trimester going for one.  Then we heard some women screaming and we ran out of there.

Rape/Incest is another issue.  How can you tell someone having gone through that not to choose an abortion.  I also had a friend who was raped and she decided to keep the baby.  

Very difficult either way you put it.  Sigh.  :(

Langa

Unless a woman conceives through immaculate conception, there is a man there who could have insisted on using a condom or, he could have refused to have sex without one.

If birth control is the woman's ultimate responsibility (in the end), then shouldn't the ultimate decision remain on her shoulders?

I talked to a friend of mine who was raped (luckily enough, she didn't get pregnant).  I asked her what would have happened if she had gotten pregnant and was forced to carry the baby to term.  Her response, "I would have killed myself".

To woman the men who rape them are monsters the worst thing ever and they will always be part of that womans worst dreams and any baby consieved in that way would be part of that monster so no`one can blame them for wanting to abort the child , IMO unless you have been raped and pregnant from that most violant act no`one can judge them.

From reading every post it has really effected me, who do we think we are judging others for there choices, how many of you have made a choice others may not have agreed with?? i know i have. i wonder how many people on here have had abortion or been raped have we gave them a thought when typing our judgments. i am ashamed that i even have a opinion on this subject. Live and let live we will all be judged by our selves and we all have to live with our choices.

PF wishes to you all
Brian