Fresh out on the news is a story about the DNC throwing out US flags (in the trash I think) at invesco field after Obama’s speech.

If this proves to be true it will really show the country how they (the DNC) respect the principals of the people, and they want to represent YOU!

Roland. >:(

Did that piss you off as much as when the Republicans trashed the flag?

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 12:54pm:

Did that piss you off as much as when the Republicans trashed the flag?

I am not aware of the incident you speak of but my answer would be yes! Anyone who disses my flag or country pisses me off....

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 1:04pm:

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 12:54pm: Did that piss you off as much as when the Republicans trashed the flag? I am not aware of the incident you speak of but my answer would be yes! Anyone who disses my flag or country pisses me off....

It's that damn left wing media!!

Here's one of the President stepping on our flag in memory of the victims of 911:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGESTART PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

$, is that a joke or what? You'r gona post a pic of a F'n rug?

Its not a rug, its a door mat.....you know, the things that are meant to be stepped on.....LMAO!  ;D

B$, this is me putting my money where my mouth is!

Receipt Number: 1268-3927-2855-8111

I guess I'm a contributer now. :)

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 1:34pm:

$, is that a joke or what? You'r gona post a pic of a F'n rug?

Stepping on the flag is not desecration?

In my opinion, stepping on it or defacing it is the just about the worst thing you can do to a flag.  


Quote:

Its not a rug, its a door mat.....you know, the things that are meant to be stepped on.....LMAO!

Exactly, Jonny.  He is using the memory of 9/11 and the American flag to wipe his feet.


Hey, Rolo, what did you contribute to?

Reportedly after the conventions, the Democrats threw out thousands of paper flags, while the Republicans recycled thousands of paper flags. Big Fucking Deal, unless you are an extreme environmentalist.

Oh, I noticed that McCain wasn't wearing a flag lapel pin on TV the other day ... haven't you wing-nuts established that as proof of being anti-American?  

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 3:12pm:

wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 1:34pm: $, is that a joke or what? You'r gona post a pic of a F'n rug? Stepping on the flag is not desecration? In my opinion, stepping on it or defacing it is the just about the worst thing you can do to a flag.   Quote: Its not a rug, its a door mat.....you know, the things that are meant to be stepped on.....LMAO!   Exactly, Jonny.  He is using the memory of 9/11 and the American flag to wipe his feet. Hey, Rolo, what did you contribute to?

CH.com. :P

monty wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 3:14pm:

Reportedly after the conventions, the Democrats threw out thousands of paper flags, while the Republicans recycled thousands of paper flags. Big Fucking Deal, unless you are an extreme environmentalist. Oh, I noticed that McCain wasn't wearing a flag lapel pin on TV the other day ... haven't you wing-nuts established that as proof of being anti-American?

Thats fine monty but what does it say to the rest of the world when they see the pic of the flags in the dumpster!

Roland. ::)

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 3:21pm:

Thats fine monty but what does it say to the rest of the world when they see the pic of the flags in the dumpster! Roland. ::)

Good question - why are they Republicans so eager to show those pictures to the world?  How many people never would have thought about this if you didn't post?  Aren't you trying to use bogus patriotism issues as a political weapon?

Quote:

Good question - why are they Republicans so eager to show those pictures to the world?  How many people never would have thought about this if you didn't post?  Aren't you trying to use bogus patriotism issues as a political weapon?

Not at all, I just don’t like the dissenters riding on the coat tails of patriots who gave them a right to free speech!

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 3:37pm:

Not at all, I just don’t like the dissenters riding on the coat tails of patriots who gave them a right to free speech!

First, your attempts at characterizing one party as patriotic and the other as unpatriotic is transparently partisan and pathetic.

Second, the right to free speech was not given or granted to me by anyone - it is an inalienable right. If someone took risk or made a sacrifice to protect that right, I am grateful. But no party gave me that right, and Americans of all shapes, sizes and colors have worked to keep Americans free.

Would Barak Obama campaign organizers be a better descriptor for you indulgence? ;)

PS; Monte, if you don’t know how blessed you are to be a us citizen, then you belong with the rest of the lemmings! :-?

::)
monty wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 3:46pm:

wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 3:37pm: Not at all, I just don’t like the dissenters riding on the coat tails of patriots who gave them a right to free speech! Second, the right to free speech was not given or granted to me by anyone - it is an inalienable right.

Tell that to a soldier that had his legs blown off!

monty wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 3:46pm:

[quote author=447572646E616E6263070 link=1220719386/0#12 date=1220729826] Second, the right to free speech was not given or granted to me by anyone - it is an inalienable right. If someone took risk or made a sacrifice to protect that right, I am grateful. But no party gave me that right, and Americans of all shapes, sizes and colors have worked to keep Americans free.

Ah yes, free speech. I remember that. Didn't that stuff end back in the 60s?

The following was written after that RNC in 2008, not the DNC in 1968....

Lockdown in St. Paul


Adam Turl describes the police-state tactics used to squelch dissent
in Minneapolis and St. Paul during the Republican National Convention.

September 5, 2008

THERE WAS a criminal conspiracy engulfing Minnesota's Twin Cities
during the Republican National Convention (RNC)--but it didn't involve
masked anarchists, as mainstream media outlets warned.

The real conspiracy was a plot by 30 federal, state and local law
enforcement agencies to repress dissent and protests under the rubric
of "national security" and the "war on terror."

The repression caught in its wake antiwar protesters,
environmentalists, pacifists, anarchists, socialists and reporters--in
short, anyone who might show (or report on) signs of dissent against a
government waging two barbaric wars while it can't even provide health care to its own people.

As of the late afternoon before John McCain's convention speech
September 4, at least 320 people had been arrested in the previous
five days--on the street or in police raids. At least 16 of them faced
felony charges, and 47 others faced serious "gross misdemeanor"
charges. Other reports put the number of felony arrests as high as
120--at least five of them involving minors.

As of September 3, many of those arrested remained in jail, held
illegally beyond Minnesota's 36-hour limit on detention without formal
charges. Reportedly, many prisoners hadn't been allowed to meet with
lawyers or make phone calls--and some prisoners were said to be
holding a hunger strike in protest.

Outrageously, eight people have been charged with "second-degree
furtherance of terrorism," "conspiracy to riot" and "commit civil
disorder." Not one of them was charged with any actual act of violence
or property damage.

Government documents show that their organization, the RNC "Welcoming
Committee," along with other activist groups, had been
investigated- -and infiltrated- -over at least the past year, with the
help of the FBI and FBI-led Minneapolis Joint Terrorist Task Force.

As Indymedia observed: "Based on past abuses of such informants by law
enforcement, the National Lawyers Guild is concerned that such police
informants have incentives to lie and exaggerate threats of violence,
and to also act as provocateurs in raising, and urging support for,
acts of violence."

Despite flimsy or nonexistent evidence, over the Labor Day weekend,
several homes and activist meeting centers were raided. Computers,
cell-phones, e-mails, political pamphlets and protest plans seized,
and dozens of people were arrested.

These first raids occurred before any protests had even been held in
the Twin Cities. As Glenn Greenwald observed on Salon.com:

"Just review what happened yesterday and today. Homes of college-age
protesters were raided by rifle-wielding police forces. Journalists
were forcibly detained at gunpoint. Lawyers on the scene to represent
the detainees were handcuffed. Computers, laptops, journals, diaries,
and political pamphlets were seized from people's homes. And all of
this occurred against U.S. citizens without a single act of violence
having taken place, and nothing more than traffic blockage even
alleged by authorities to have been planned."

Bruce Nestor of the Minnesota chapter of the National Lawyers Guild
noted that "conspiracy to riot was the charge used against the Chicago
Eight in 1968 as part of a politically motivated prosecution. ..These
charges are an effort to equate publicly stated plans to blockade
traffic and disrupt the RNC as being the same as acts of terrorism.
This both trivializes real violence and attempts to place the stated
political views of the defendants on trial."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

THE RED herring of "terrorism" was used as a cover for rampant
violations of activists' civil liberties--beginnin g with the
"pre-emptive" arrests, raids and harassment prior to the protests.

For example, police in the Twin Cities impounded a bus owned by the
family of Delyla and Stan Wilson for "safety violations" after pulling
them over on Interstate 94--prior to the large Labor Day march on the
Xcel Center, the site of the convention.

Police began tailing the Wilson family--who were leading a
demonstration in favor of sustainable gardening, recycling and water
conservation- -after deciding that their gardening and environmental
tools could be used as weapons. Responding to accusations that the
police took the Wilsons' bus to stifle dissent, police Sgt. William
Palmer said the family was "free to go to the protests," but they
"just can't drive this bus to get there."

Another group of activists from the organization Earth Justice were
detained on their way to the protests, and their bus seized by police.
And on August 31, police tailed and then detained activists who had
been attending the Veterans for Peace (VFP) conference at the Ramada Inn in Bloomington, just outside the Twin Cities.

Law enforcement personnel also surrounded a house where members of Eyewitness-- a group that had successfully fought unjust arrests from the Republican convention in New York City in 2004--were staying.

Police escalated their tactics from harassment to outright brutality
during largely nonviolent direct action protests on Labor Day.

When protesters tried to block traffic leading into the Xcel Center,
the cops attacked protesters with chemicals and projectiles. According
to the Coldsnap Legal Collective, "With no provocation, police have
indiscriminately used rubber bullets, concussion grenades, and
chemical irritants to disperse crowds and incapacitate protesters."

A Coldsnap spokesperson told reporters that prisoners were denied
medical treatment as punishment, including one arrestee with
hemophilia, another with asthma and yet another with a broken finger.

According to the Wall Street Journal, police responded to protests
with "pepper spray, tear gas, smoke canisters and what they call
'distraction devices' that give a loud bang and a flash of light..." A
member of Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) who witnessed some of the violent police attacks told reporters that police were "treating [U.S.] civilians like you would Iraqis."

Parts of the city did seem to be occupied by an army. According to the
New York Times, as "the protests grew, scores of National Guard troops in riot gear and gas masks fanned out around" the Xcel Center, while "[p]olice helicopters buzzed over St. Paul...Humvees painted in
fatigue green ferried water to police officers...and city dump trucks
were used to block traffic on some streets."

The Times reported that Jerah Plucker, a documentary filmmaker, was
swept up by police--along with several others--while listening to
music in a park along the Mississippi River. "Over the loudspeaker
[the police] are saying, 'You are being arrested.'" Plucker told
reporters. "They're telling us, 'Sit down, put your hands on your head."

Many others--both protesters and bystanders-- had similar experiences. A 17-year-old youth was arrested trying to get into a concert on Monday on Harriet Island. He was soon released, but not before his photo was broadcast on television identifying him as an "anarchist" bent on "disrupting the convention."

Dylan Asplen was charged with "felony riot"--and spoke to his mother
on the phone from jail. His mother, Annette told reporters that they
"arrested him for walking down the street. He said he didn't do
anything. I am so mad, you have no idea...It's a police state."

Keith Smith, a teenager from Menomonie, Wis., told reporters he was
beaten by police and then released without any medical treatment.
Minnesota Public Radio (MPR) reported that, "sitting in his home in
Menomonie, he lifted his shirt and displayed what appears to be a boot
print on his right shoulder... He also has scrapes on his arms, chest
and hip."

Anita Betancourt, speaking outside the Ramsey County Law Enforcement Center days after Monday's arrests, told MPR she was waiting for her 19-year old daughter, who had been in the Twin Cities to protest the war and convention because her brother was serving in Iraq.

As MPR reported, Betancourt's daughter told her mother in a phone call that "the police just shot her and arrested her, and she was just
standing there. She told Betancourt that everything-- all of a
sudden--was just chaos all around her. They started pushing and
shooting people, and the gas and pepper spray and all that stuff."

Attorney Matthew Ludt--who has represented some of arrestees--told MPR that "not only were they trying to keep demonstrators, protesters,
people who want to get their message across off the streets...they
swept up everybody else, which was bystanders as well as journalists. "

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

REPORTERS APPEAR to have been systematically targeted by law
enforcement during the protests. Democracy Now! host Amy Goodman was arrested and physically assaulted September 1 and charged with obstruction of a peace officer, as were DN! producers Sharif Kouddous and Nicole Salazar.

Kouddous and Salazar were reporting on one of the protests against the convention. Goodman was then arrested for the "crime" of asking after her wrongfully arrested colleagues. According to an emergency alert from DN!:

"During the demonstration in which the Democracy Now! team was
arrested, law enforcement officers used pepper spray, rubber bullets,
concussion grenades and excessive force against protesters and
journalists. Several demonstrators were arrested during this action,
as was a photographer from the Associated Press."

Other independent journalists were also arrested, including
Chicago-based freelance reporter Nathan Weber, who was thrown to the ground and received blows to the back of his head. Four journalists
from a student newspaper in Kentucky were detained as well. The
student-journalists were charged with rioting while covering Monday's
protests. Like Weber and the DN! producers, the Kentucky students
showed their media credentials- -but were arrested anyway. One was
still in jail as of September 3.

The escalating repression and arrests continued for the rest of the
week. This included hundreds of riot cops in full gear lining the
streets of the permitted Poor People's March September 2 to try to
intimidate the marchers.

On September 3, following a Rage Against the Machine concert at the
Target Center, 102 people were arrested for the "crime" of marching
through the streets and chanting about "democracy." According to
reports, police fired "two rounds from what appeared to be either a
beanbag or a pellet gun" and pepper-sprayed people as they left the
concert.

Even before the concert began--at around 7 p.m.--an activist
campaigning for presidential candidate Ralph Nader was arrested
outside the Target Center. His crime? Informing people about an
upcoming Nader campaign rally.

The point of the raids--and the repression since--is clearly to
intimidate radicals and progressives. But the issues that led
thousands to protest the Republican convention in the Twin Cities--as
well as the Democratic National Convention in Denver--aren' t going
away. Nor are the growing expectations that something must be done to address these injustices.

If we are to continue organizing and speaking out, we must stand
behind all the victims of this police conspiracy to stifle dissent.

********

I especially appreciate the government stopping those damned gardeners before they got to the convention. Thanks to the patriot act, we can keep these sure terrorists out of our political process.

Bobw

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 3:18pm:

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 3:12pm: wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 1:34pm: $, is that a joke or what? You'r gona post a pic of a F'n rug? Stepping on the flag is not desecration? In my opinion, stepping on it or defacing it is the just about the worst thing you can do to a flag.   Quote: Its not a rug, its a door mat.....you know, the things that are meant to be stepped on.....LMAO!   Exactly, Jonny.  He is using the memory of 9/11 and the American flag to wipe his feet. Hey, Rolo, what did you contribute to? CH.com. :P

Good for you, man!!  Thanks to people like you, the lights shall remain on.

:-*

PinkFloyd, We don't care what your point is when your throwing bottles and being unruly in Minnesota. Your ass is going to jail!

That’s just the way it is.

Rolo.. ;)

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 4:47pm:

PinkFloyd, We don't care what your point is when your throwing bottles and being unruly in Minnesota. Your ass is going to jail! That’s just the way it is. Rolo.. ;)

Yeah, I can understand. I'm sure those gardeners, waving their watering buckets and shouting "up with lettuce" was a very frightening experience for the good folks of Mn.

My point was that it would be nice if the respect for the people and the rights that a flag represents, was as important to everyone, as the flag itself.
:(

Bobw

Pinkfloyd wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 5:01pm:

wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 4:47pm: PinkFloyd, We don't care what your point is when your throwing bottles and being unruly in Minnesota. Your ass is going to jail! That’s just the way it is. Rolo.. ;) Yeah, I can understand. I'm sure those gardeners, waving their watering buckets and shouting "up with lettuce" was a very frightening experience for the good folks of Mn. My point was that it would be nice if the respect for the people and the rights that a flag represents, was as important to everyone, as the flag itself. :( Bobw

And I totally agree with what you say! I did not go down to the convention nor did I want to. There may have been issues not covered by the local news because they did not want to besmirch the local constituents.

Roland. ;)

Pinkfloyd wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 5:01pm:

wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 4:47pm: PinkFloyd, We don't care what your point is when your throwing bottles and being unruly in Minnesota. Your ass is going to jail! That’s just the way it is. Rolo.. ;) Yeah, I can understand. I'm sure those gardeners, waving their watering buckets and shouting "up with lettuce" was a very frightening experience for the good folks of Mn. My point was that it would be nice if the respect for the people and the rights that a flag represents, was as important to everyone, as the flag itself. :( Bobw

Let me be the one.....Are they legal or invaders of this country?.....the  lettuce pickers I mean......huh?

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 6:00pm:

[Let me be the one.....Are they legal or invaders of this country?.....the  lettuce pickers I mean......huh?

If I had said, a bunch of welders, shouting "up with acetylene" would you have asked that question?

It really depends on who said "up with lettuce" as to whether or not you have a problem?
<geeesh>

Don't worry jonny. It was a bunch of good American citizens that were there to promote sustainable gardening. Wanting to teach people how to grow their own food on small plots of land.
Something that we all might need to do if this economy continues to beat up everyone without a 50k limit on their American Express card.

Bobw

AWESOME!!! An argument about a bunch of paper flags in the trash in a country where you have the right to burn the U.S. flag.  Really!!!  Are we even sure it was a "certain party" throwing the flags away, or was it maybe the staff at the facility of "the party" doing the awful deed?  

Although, it nice to see petty finger pointing is still alive and kicking, it would not be an election year with out it.  Keep up the good work Jonny... :-?  

wrote on Sep 7^th, 2008 at 2:03am:

Keep up the good work Jonny... :-?

As always!  :-*

I saw the story on PBS about the incredible over-reaction by law enforcement. Looked like Germany, circa 1938. No rocking the boat here since 9-11, I guess. Our solution to terrorists is to act like the crackpots they represent.

The flag stories are gettinig tiresome. It's a non-issue except to bloggers that have nothing much to say other than trying to scare voters in the manner of Ann Coulter.

The incredible extent of our flag-flying dates back to the 1880s. I forget the organizations at the moment. I don't think it was the G . A. R. though It was quite a thing. One way you can spot old unidentifed photographs of hotels, buildings resorts, etc. as American or European, is that here, flags are shown in everywhere. You don't see this much in European photos. We are unique in this. I fly it on the appropriate holidays but I don't run around to my neighbors giving them a hard time or calling them unpatriotic if they don't. It's un-American to do so.

Charlie

wrote on Sep 6^th, 2008 at 4:22pm:

::) Second, the right to free speech was not given or granted to me by anyone - it is an inalienable right.  Tell that to a soldier that had his legs blown off!

So you don't believe in the Declaration of Independence, which stated that we have inalienable rights?  You reject the ideas of Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers?

monty wrote on Sep 7^th, 2008 at 10:16am:

wrote on Sep 6th, 2008 at 4:22pm: ::) Second, the right to free speech was not given or granted to me by anyone - it is an inalienable right.  Tell that to a soldier that had his legs blown off! So you don't believe in the Declaration of Independence, which stated that we have inalienable rights?  You reject the ideas of Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers?

Dude, your quoting skills are a bit fucked up to say the least....LOL  :-*

wrote on Sep 7^th, 2008 at 2:03am:

AWESOME!!! An argument about a bunch of paper flags in the trash in a country where you have the right to burn the U.S. flag.  Really!!!

More of our men and women are dead in Iraq than died on 9-11, upwards of a million people have lost their homes in the mortage scandle, some 700,000 Americans are in jail for smoking marijuana, 50 million people don't have health care, unemployment is through the roof, and this election is going to be decided upon the fact that a vice-presidential candidate shot a moose.
Animal rights activists are fuming because Palin shot a moose, and the NRA is jumping for joy because she...shot a moose!

A position that is lucky enough to be allowed to clean the ashtrays in the oval office, let alone clean up corruption in DC.
The biggest news the current VP ever made was about shooting a friend in the face, and the VP selection is going to decide this election.
:(

Bobw

  LMAO!!!!!!!!  Have I told you lately that I love you Bob?

wrote on Sep 7^th, 2008 at 11:32am:

Dude, your quoting skills are a bit fucked up to say the least....LOL  :-*

Its not just me, moron ... the software for this board was changed, and it now runs things together in the quote.  It's been happening to other people in other threads as well.

Here's a quote for you:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, .."

monty wrote on Sep 7^th, 2008 at 4:10pm:

wrote on Sep 7th, 2008 at 11:32am: Dude, your quoting skills are a bit fucked up to say the least....LOL  :-* Its not just me, moron ... the software for this board was changed, and it now runs things together in the quote.  It's been happening to other people in other threads as well.

You call me moron?......I dont see anyone else here fucking up quotes, you are just a jackass that does not know how to quote.

I have no problem doing it, why is it that you are this fucking dumb?

Thats the second time you have quoted me out of order.....Learn how to use a puter!  ;)

Guys and Gals, enough.

The American flag is a symbol of this country's heritage in that it depicts a field of blue with 50 stars, and red and white stripes depicting the original colonies.  That's it - it is a symbol.

It is not our country.  It is not our government - either party.  It is a symbol only.

It says nothing about who we are, what we are, or where we are going.  It is a symbol of our heritage.

As a symbol, yes, it should be revered and saluted and treated with dignity.  But it is not!

Before you start yelling about flags from either the DNC or the RNC showing up in dumpsters, please tell me, if our symbol is so sacred.....

Why are citizens wearing them as hats, emblazoned on t-shirts, even underwear.  

If it is so sacred, then it should only be shown flying high and proudly on a flagpole - not on someone's butt.

Flame away

Sandy

It's incredible. The Charles Dobsons of the GOP are tickled pink by Palin's selection and those that agree with Palin that the earth is 6,000 years old and that the "Flinstones" is history are beside themselves with glee. Flag flying falls in the same category as an attempt to divert serious attention to the real world. They treat their own party almost as badly as the rest of the country. This is the kind of thing you get when you have to run away from the "accomplishments" of your own party and send the party faithful running screaming if either current leader shows up party rallies.

On that, Dick Cheney has shown his support for independence from foreign oil this week by checking in BP and other oil companies across the mid east. You're doing a heck of a job Brownie Cheney START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGESTART PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Serious news gets only a smidgeon of coverage compared to baby bump stories.....By the way, it was McCain's campaign that gave the  media the pregnancy story first. He beat them to the punch.

Shame on the press for looking into a candidate's history.

Charlie

Pinkfloyd wrote on Sep 7^th, 2008 at 1:12pm:

wrote on Sep 7th, 2008 at 2:03am: AWESOME!!! An argument about a bunch of paper flags in the trash in a country where you have the right to burn the U.S. flag.  Really!!!   More of our men and women are dead in Iraq than died on 9-11, upwards of a million people have lost their homes in the mortage scandle, some 700,000 Americans are in jail for smoking marijuana, 50 million people don't have health care, unemployment is through the roof, and this election is going to be decided upon the fact that a vice-presidential candidate shot a moose. Animal rights activists are fuming because Palin shot a moose, and the NRA is jumping for joy because she...shot a moose! A position that is lucky enough to be allowed to clean the ashtrays in the oval office, let alone clean up corruption in DC. The biggest news the current VP ever made was about shooting a friend in the face, and the VP selection is going to decide this election. :( Bobw

I totally agree with you Bob, and that was pretty much my point.  There are much bigger and more important things to consider in this election than a bunch of trash created at a party.  I am a little lost as to why you are qouting me to say this though.  Can you elaborate?

Charlie wrote on Sep 7^th, 2008 at 4:35pm:

[size=12]It's incredible. The Charles Dobsons of the GOP are tickled pink by Palin's selection and those that agree with Palin that the earth is 6,000 years old and that the "Flinstones" is history are beside themselves with glee. Flag flying falls in the same category as an attempt to divert serious attention to the real world. They treat their own party almost as badly as the rest of the country. This is the kind of thing you get when you have to run away from the "accomplishments" of your own party and send the party faithful running screaming if either current leader shows up party rallies.

I agree with you completely, Charlie, however, you have to look at the other side as well.  
They dont want you to look at the current leaders or their accomplishments, they just want you to look at the 'change'.  That is running from your history and screaming about change in order to rally voters.......cause I think we all want 'change'.

Its the same damn thing on both sides.  That is what gets me down, just like Mel.  I just cant keep up on it cause it is so damn frustrating.

When I started this thread I did not even know if it was not true, nor did I care if it was true. My point is I feel it’s wrong no matter who is perpetrating the defacement.

I am also not calling anyone’s patriotism in to account ether. I just find it hard to believe that if a redneck knows what it means to be disrespectful to the flag, than a Harvard educated presidential wana be and his clan of political lawyers should.

So the flags were rescued and reused by people who care about what the flag stands for and not just what it can bestow upon them, in the heat of the moment.

And yes, I found some Charlie pills and I’ll leave it at that!

Love ya all for who you are, not what you stand for.

Roland. 8-)

I'm not confident looking for change on the right.

As much as I like John McCain, I'm not too excited about the McCain revolution in Washington. Same economic plan, same energy policy, same tax plan, same foreign policy, same Supreme Court appointments promised.

I believe that it's true that the McCain of 2000 wouldn't vote for the McCain of 2008.

Charlie

Thanks for your input again Charlie, even if I find it slanted in my minds eye. ::)

Roland. ;)

Edit to add; I still think the world of you no matter what your political beliefs are. 8-)

I have to respond at least once a day or I'll break out in hives.

I like you as well. I wouldn't miss your comebacks either. I burn a lot of calories trying to keep up.  8-)

Charlie

wrote on Sep 8^th, 2008 at 3:01pm:

I am a little lost as to why you are qouting me to say this though.  Can you elaborate?

Just agreeing with the theme of your post.
Both sides do a great job of getting people to focus on the least important issues, building votes, one special interest group at a time.

Bobw
P.S. Love you too Linda ;-) ten years together and we haven't even had our first argument.

This thread completely illustrates the power the Republicrat/Demublican party has over the voters in this country.  Very sad..........  :-/

Agostino Leyre wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 9:05am:

This thread completely illustrates the power the Republicrat/Demublican party has over the voters in this country.  Very sad..........  :-/

Actually, it's the voters that have the power.  People seem to forget that.  God forbid you actually use your brain, filter out the nonsense, and attempt to make an informed choice.  God forbid you actually take a position and defend it.

wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 12:44pm:

Agostino Leyre wrote on Sep 9th, 2008 at 9:05am: This thread completely illustrates the power the Republicrat/Demublican party has over the voters in this country.  Very sad..........  :-/ Actually, it's the voters that have the power.  People seem to forget that.  God forbid you actually use your brain, filter out the nonsense, and attempt to make an informed choice.  God forbid you actually take a position and defend it.

Oh I think people take positions and make "informed" choices.  It's just that the issues upon which they take positions are relatively worthless and the information is being spoon fed by special interests.

I think you are right, to some degree.  Anybody who buys into the party line (any party) is a fool.  For the most part, most voters do no critical thinking.  Instead, they fall for the same old empty rhetoric that has worked so well for so many years.

As a nation, we are growing dumber by the minute.  Just look at the idiots we keep re-electing.  It is sad.  Hell, I'm dumber just for having participated in this debate.  Now you're dumber for having read it.  You're welcome.

wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 1:29pm:

I think you are right, to some degree.  Anybody who buys into the party line (any party) is a fool.  For the most part, most voters do no critical thinking.  Instead, they fall for the same old empty rhetoric that has worked so well for so many years. As a nation, we are growing dumber by the minute.  Just look at the idiots we keep re-electing.  It is sad.  Hell, I'm dumber just for having participated in this debate.  Now you're dumber for having read it.  You're welcome.

Dumber!  You aint kidding!  I believe we are the only ass backward country in 'the free world' that has put someone in office that had fewer votes than his opponent.  And, we have been going backwards ever since...

Agostino Leyre wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 9:05am:

This thread completely illustrates the power the Republicrat/Demublican party has over the voters in this country.  Very sad..........  :-/

Well, we have a Constitution that sets up a system that pretty much guarantees two major parties - and only one candidate can be chosen. I don't think there is one "Republicrat/Demublican party" - I think there are real differences between Al Gore and George Bush, and real differences between Barack Obama and John McCain.  As to whether people in this country or this forum can intelligently and fairly discuss the differences and make a rational decision (however you choose to define 'rational') is another question.  But there is an important decision to be made.

monty wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 1:43pm:

But there is an important decision to be made.

No, the decision has already been made for you.  

Dumb is what the people that control the two parties want.

There hasn't been a serious third party try since 1912 and that's an iffy description at that.

This is why you have to find one thing you like or hate and vote to convince yourself that you are making a decision.

Charlie

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Click MORE on number 2  ;)

I read through some of them Jonny, and unfortunately, ran into major lies (that I know for a fact weren't true), so, it makes me wonder how many more of them are false (not that it matters, I'm not voting for Obama anyway).

I guess the reason I respect our flag is that people have the right to burn it or discard it.  They can wear it or tattoo it.  They can put in on a cake, cut into it and eat it and they can put it on a doormat and walk all over it.

I guess our flag is great in my mind BECAUSE we can do all those things and we don't think that our flag IS WHAT IS GREAT, it is a symbol of what is great.

OK, with that said... burning the flag always seems quite ironic.  The freedom you are expressing by burning it is exactly what the flag stands for.  In a way, you show the greatness of the symbol by trying to destroy it.

Anyhow........ back to the debate on politics where you can vote for a young guy with so little experience or a really old guy who might leave a person in charge with even less experience.

BTW, I agree with the comment that 2000 McCain wouldn't WANT to vote for 2008 McCain, but he would.  I feel very much in line with 2000 McCain, which leaves me voting AGAIN for the greater of 2 lessors.

BTW, if I voted just on ads, I would vote for Obama.  His ad with the Bush/McCain hug is hilarious.

Now, back to the show.  </soapbox>

FramCire wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 7:54pm:

back to the debate on politics where you can vote for a young guy with so little experience or a really old guy who might leave a person in charge with even less experience.

Can you tell me how much executive experience Obama has? ;)

wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 8:07pm:

FramCire wrote on Sep 9th, 2008 at 7:54pm: back to the debate on politics where you can vote for a young guy with so little experience or a really old guy who might leave a person in charge with even less experience. Can you tell me how much executive experience Obama has? ;)

I was referring to Washington experience.  Honestly, as much as I like Palin, I have no idea why McCain thinks she is the right person for the VP job.  It seems more like a political move to court younger voters and women voters than it is picking a person READY for the job.

On the other hand, I don't think Obama is right for the job either.  That is the point behind my comment and at least Obama picked a person with experience to help him while McCain didn't pick a person ready to be President (Mccain is 70+ so this matters).  If you wish to nitpick whether Palins time as governor of Alaska is technically more experience than Obama..... go right ahead.  Winning that point wont win a single vote for either side and is of little consequence when realizing that McCain picked a VERY POOR choice for VP.

In the end I hope McCain's pick of Palin doesn't lose this election for him.  A safer pick and I would bet you McCain would have won easily.

I have been a McCain fan for many years and this turn of events is quite puzzling.

I think we can agree that its pretty bad when the top of the ticket on one side has less executive experience than the bottom of the ticket on the other side.

Palin was the best choice, watch and see.  ;)

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Hmm.

Best,

George

wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 8:07pm:

Can you tell me how much executive experience Obama has? ;)

Yes, We can! His experience in the Illinois Legislature and the Congress is the same as some guy who ran for President in 1860 - Abraham Lincoln.  Funny how the Republicans forget about that, since Lincoln was a Republican ... more proof that Republicans are no longer the party of Lincoln.

Why is it that 'Executive Experience' is such a mantra for Republicans?  Didn't Bush have lots of it?  He was an executive at an oil company, executed a baseball team, and was governor ... did that make W. a great President, or what??


George wrote on Sep 10^th, 2008 at 1:24am:

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Of course they don't want to say much about Palin's ties to the Alaska Independence Party, which wants to secede from the United States of America ... that doesn't play well in Peoria. It's part of the anti-government land envy thing going on in Alaska - plenty of people there think they should own lands the federal government bought from Russia, just because they live nearby. That isn't how the whole concept of 'property' works ... you can't just go out and grab something that belongs to others.


It was only two months ago that Palin said:


Quote:

"As for that VP talk all the time, I'll tell you, I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day?

Forget experience, we are talking about some other type of amazing skills if she can go from not even knowing what the Vice President of the U.S.A. does, to being qualified to be one, in a matter of weeks!  

IMHO (and others also), Sarah Palin was chosen for two simple reasons, (1) She is female (for some reason, McCain thought that he could pull Hillary supporters with her) and (2) He gains the evangelical vote by choosing her.

Who or what is DNC?

Sorry if this seems a stupid question, but remember I'm not an American.

Greetings, Pascal.

Democratic National Committee

or

Democratic National Convention

Senator Obama said this morning, quote “spare me the phony talk about change”.

I am assuming that he is just not hearing what he is saying! ;D

Quote:

IMHO (and others also), Sarah Palin was chosen for two simple reasons, (1) She is female (for some reason, McCain thought that he could pull Hillary supporters with her) and (2) He gains the evangelical vote by choosing her.

Great Barb

And.............

After ranting that Obama is merely a celebrity like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, it turns out that McCain & Co. wanted an Obama of its own. Now that they have Palin, they’ve stopped arguing that celebrity is bad. All they do is worship at her cult of celebrity. As Rick Davis, a top McCain adviser, said: “This election is not about issues. This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates.”

Why put out a press release about her teenage daughter’s pregnancy and then spend the next few days attacking the press for covering that press release?

When the phone rings at 3 a.m., will she call the Wasilla Assembly of God congregation and ask them to pray on a response, as she asked them to pray for a natural gas pipeline?

Charlie

Yeah baby, to go this far you know he is panicing....LMAO!  [smiley=crackup.gif]

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Charlie wrote on Sep 10^th, 2008 at 12:16pm:

Quote: IMHO (and others also), Sarah Palin was chosen for two simple reasons, (1) She is female (for some reason, McCain thought that he could pull Hillary supporters with her) and (2) He gains the evangelical vote by choosing her. Great Barb And............. After ranting that Obama is merely a celebrity like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, it turns out that McCain & Co. wanted an Obama of its own. Now that they have Palin, they’ve stopped arguing that celebrity is bad. All they do is worship at her cult of celebrity. As Rick Davis, a top McCain adviser, said: “This election is not about issues. This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates.” Why put out a press release about her teenage daughter’s pregnancy and then spend the next few days attacking the press for covering that press release? When the phone rings at 3 a.m., will she call the Wasilla Assembly of God congregation and ask them to pray on a response, as she asked them to pray for a natural gas pipeline? Charlie

Damn,
First Brian takes me for Jen and now you take me for Barb!  Should I just change my name to something else?

United WE stand!

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Divided WE fall!

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GOD BLESS AMERICA!

deltadarlin wrote on Sep 11^th, 2008 at 8:50am:

Charlie wrote on Sep 10th, 2008 at 12:16pm: Quote: IMHO (and others also), Sarah Palin was chosen for two simple reasons, (1) She is female (for some reason, McCain thought that he could pull Hillary supporters with her) and (2) He gains the evangelical vote by choosing her. Great Barb And............. After ranting that Obama is merely a celebrity like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, it turns out that McCain & Co. wanted an Obama of its own. Now that they have Palin, they’ve stopped arguing that celebrity is bad. All they do is worship at her cult of celebrity. As Rick Davis, a top McCain adviser, said: “This election is not about issues. This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates.” Why put out a press release about her teenage daughter’s pregnancy and then spend the next few days attacking the press for covering that press release? When the phone rings at 3 a.m., will she call the Wasilla Assembly of God congregation and ask them to pray on a response, as she asked them to pray for a natural gas pipeline? Charlie Damn, First Brian takes me for Jen and now you take me for Barb!  Should I just change my name to something else?

Well, I would have said it if you hadn't beat me to it.... Does that count?  :-*

Hugs BD

Change is COMING!.......LMAO  [smiley=bigguns.gif]

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Quote:

Change is COMING!.......LMAO

You bet!  Same economic policy, same war policy, same energy policy, same environmental policy, same education policy, same tax breaks for the rich policy, same immigration policy, same wiretapping policy, incredibly even some of the same torture policy.....if you can believe what McCain has been saying lately, same abortion and pandering to evangelical idiots policy....after all the earth is only 6,000 years old and dear Sarah could have been field dressing T-Rexes back then.

Oh yeah. If McCain wins, moronic artifacts like Teri Shivo and lots of other idiotic Pat Robertson ideas will have room to resurface.

Exciting as all get out. I can't wait.

Charlie

wrote on Sep 9^th, 2008 at 12:44pm:

Actually, it's the voters that have the power.  People seem to forget that.  God forbid you actually use your brain, filter out the nonsense, and attempt to make an informed choice.  God forbid you actually take a position and defend it.

Yes Fubar you are right! We the independent voters have more power than we have ever had in the past elections because when it’s running 50/50 like the last 2 general elections have, we (the independent voters) cast the deciding votes. The party lever pullers will be the downfall of freedom. Simple distraction and ignorance perpetrated by party propaganda is the way of the day.

I voted for Perot because George Bush senior was the head of the CIA and instead of being honest (when questioned about several things a CIA head would know) Bush Sr. said I don’t know or remember. He should have just said I can not comment on national security issues!

I am an independent voter in need of a serious and realistic candidate, not a shoe polish salesman!  This is why I am preaching the realist party. As long as we Americans continue to follow the lemmings, we will be domed to this infinite loop of self serving morons!

Roland. ;)

Edit to add: Dem $ given this year =$100, and Rep = $0, and Hillary = a big $0 ;D

Quote:

same tax breaks for the rich policy

In 2005, the top 25% of wage earners paid 85.6% of the income taxes collected.  The top 1% of wage earners paid 38.4% of the income taxes collected.  This was after the huge tax break you speak of!

I and 200 million others know that percentages aren't the real factor. It's like percentages of murder in the U. S. compared to other coutries. If 10,000 fewer people are killed in Canada or Britain, the doesn't alter the fact that 10,000 people were killed.

I'll go with Warren Buffet who said that it's insane that someone makinig $20,000 a year has a similar tax rate as he.

Charlie

You mean like during the same year I quote above the bottom 50% of wage earners had a tax rate of 3.1% and the top 1% of wage earners had a tax rate of 21.4% (again after those hugely unfair tax breaks for the rich).

I ain't buying the whining over taxes.

Hello everyone,

I'm from Finland, not from the US. I decided to chime in to provide a view people from the other countries have about the election.

In Finland children are taught at an early age in school that violence is horrible, but sometimes necessary to find peace. That's what happened in Finland's war with Russia - we fought a tenacious battle so that we wouldn't be invaded. Considering how Russia is now when compared to Finland I'm very glad that we have independence.

Some people find glory in war, but personally I mostly see death, destruction and lost dreams. People with lost limbs, mutilated family members and worse. I would never want to be in a war, but would do my best in the occasion that we - a peaceful country - were invaded.

I don't really believe that any person is born "evil" or "good". Rather I do believe that people are shaped by their genes and their experiences in life. I believe most people want a peaceful life filled with happiness. When that is forcibly taken away from them, by violence or something else, there's going to be a reaction of some sort.

A lot of what I strongly believe in is found in the UN Declaration of Human rights, which can be found here: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

The first point there is "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood." This is something I see as a goal for all the people of the world to work towards.

My personal view - and a view of a lot of my friends - is that while the attacks of 9/11 were horrible, they're not really that much compared to the death and destruction caused by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't mean disrespect to anyone here and certainly not the ones or the family members of those who died during 9/11, but I also really feel for the Iraqi and Afghans who had the same thing happen to them.

Putting it to numbers, Wikipedia says that "Excluding the 19 hijackers, 2,974 people died in the (9/11) attacks." In Iraq War, finding out the number of casualties is not easy, but they range by all estimates in hundreds of thousands. The biggest estimate, by Opinion Research Business (ORB) survey, was conducted August 12-19, 2007 estimated 1,220,580 violent deaths due to the Iraq War (range of 733,158 to 1,446,063.)

The War has also caused numerous other things, again according to Wikipedia. To name a few:

- Some 60-70% of Iraqi children are suffering from psychological problems. I don't find this at all surprising. To quote, "Mothers are appealing for someone to pick up the bodies on the street so their children will be spared the horror of looking at them on their way to school."

- 68% of Iraqis have no access to safe drinking water.

- Malnutrition rates have risen from 19% before the US-led invasion to a national average of 28% four years later.

- Iraq's anti-corruption board reported that official government statistics revealed that five million (or 35%) of Iraqi children were orphans.

- There are more than 3.9 million refugees of Iraq, almost 16% of the population. Two million fled Iraq while approximately 1.9 million are internally displaced people. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees estimated on June 21, 2007 that 2.2 million Iraqis had fled to neighboring countries and 2 million were displaced internally, with nearly 100,000 Iraqis fleeing to Syria and Jordan each month.

As I understand, 9/11 attacks didn't cause these other things, although they definitely caused a change in the inner politics of the US. All of these things are, in my opinion, horrible. I wouldn't want them to happen to anyone. Whether Finns, Afghans, Iraqi or the Americans.

Concerning the presidential election, I believe that these things would not have happened if Bush hadn't got elected back then. I really am afraid that there will be more war and death if McCain gets elected. I don't know what will happen if Obama gets elected, but as I understand, he's anti-war.

I hope my post hasn't made me any "enemies" in this board. This was certainly not my intention. I just want peace and a happy life to everyone...free of war, cluster headaches or what be it.

- Best of regards and PFDAN to everyone,
Rosa

Rosa, to learn more about 9/11, please check out START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE and watch the preview video of "102 Minutes that Changed America".

I just watched the 9 amateur videos of that day. It brought it all back. Thanks for sharing that Mel.

Jimi wrote on Sep 12^th, 2008 at 4:18pm:

I just watched the 9 amateur videos of that day. It brought it all back. Thanks for sharing that Mel.

Your welcome Jimi.  I watched it myself last night when it was on the History channel.  To see it happen through the eyes of lenses that were there, well, it was very sombering. :(

Sandy has this one down. First take the flag off the stripper constumes before freaking out.

And the freakout is just political based, period.

And I for one am sick of it.

So both Obama and Mc Cain went to ground zero.

BIG WHOOP. Do they really think that if they didn't go there they don't love America, or they support terrorism?

But you can bet each went just becasue the other one did go. Are they going to go there every year for the rest of their lives?

I did not go to ground zero. I guess I am a terrorist pig.

I would have like one of them not going and saying. "I am saddened on this anniversary of 9-11, but I am busy trying to do somthing about making sure it doesn't happen again instead of using it as a photo-op".

superhawk2300 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2008 at 6:56pm:

I would have like one of them not going and saying. "I am saddened on this anniversary of 9-11, but I am busy trying to do somthing about making sure it doesn't happen again instead of using it as a photo-op".

I am sooo down with that!!!!

Quote:

You mean like during the same year I quote above the bottom 50% of wage earners had a tax rate of 3.1% and the top 1% of wage earners had a tax rate of 21.4% (again after those hugely unfair tax breaks for the rich).

Rich people paying a high percentage the total taxes may be true but they don't lose their home or be unable to get heath care or finance their kids' education because of the taxes they pay. For the middle class, it's the effect of the those taxes on available income, not the percentage of the taxes paid nationally. CEOs may lose some cash at a higher rate but will get along fine and will just have to move a bit more of their income to Aruba.

Those convenient percentage numbers are misleading.

Charlie

Why don't w run for office Jonny? I am so sick of these hypocrits force-feeding so much BS just so the more-believeable stuff stick (which is still BS thou).

And they also keep pimping these upper-class socialites as "common folk". Sorry, I make an above-average salary and I cannot think of one candidate that is anything like me.

Those people are SO removed from people who have to care about losing a job, and paying a motgage, and fixing a car.

Those things are true Charlie, but I don't think that means they should pay more taxes.

However, they should pay more taxes because they use more resourses and have access to more ammenities than poorer people.

All the "regular" people in my area have to sell their boats and campers, and cancel vacation plans, but the uber rich still are driving motorhomes about, using boat lanches, going to pro-baseball and football games, etc.

[quote author=4A6F6E6E79000 link=1220719386/50#66 date=1221171120]Change is COMING!.......LMAO  [smiley=bigguns.gif]

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Here is a closer look at your new hero from the view of small town Alaskie...  

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ABOUT SARAH PALIN

I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992. Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her father was my child's favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the residents of the city.

She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and won't vote for her can't quit smiling when talking about her because she is a "babe".

It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents for seven months.

She is "pro-life". She recently gave birth to a Down's syndrome baby. There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby.

She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.

She is savvy. She doesn't take positions; she just "puts things out there" and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit.

Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything like that of native Alaskans.

Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters.

She's smart.

Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000 (at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about 670,000 residents.

During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had given rise to a recall campaign.

Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a "fiscal conservative." During her 6 years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation (1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they benefited residents.

The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration weren't enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece of property that the City didn't even have clear title to, that was still in litigation 7 yrs later — to the delight of the lawyers involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.

While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office redecorated more than once.

These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city.

As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.

In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today's surplus, borrow for needs.

She's not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by her or her staff. Ideas weren't evaluated on their merits, but on the basis of who proposed them.

While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.

Sarah complained about the "old boy's club" when she first ran for Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal — loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the case of pressuring the State's top cop (see below).

As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla's Police Chief because he "intimidated" her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska's top cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure and she had every legal right to fire him, but it's pretty clear that an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn't fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew her support.

She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.

Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything publicly about her.

When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party) engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a gutsy fighter against the "old boys' club" when she dramatically quit, exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined).

As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the "bridge to nowhere" after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.

As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative action restored most of these projects — which had been vetoed simply because she was not aware of their importance — but with the unobservant she had gained a reputation as "anti-pork."

She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a fiscal conservative.

Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah. They call her "Sarah Barracuda" because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah's mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package of legislation known as "AGIA" that forced the oil companies to march to the beat of her drum.

Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to global warming. She campaigned "as a private citizen" against a state initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior's decision to list polar bears as threatened species.

McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a heartbeat away from being President.

There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more knowledgeable and experienced than she.

However, there's a lot of people who have underestimated her and are regretting it.

CLAIM VS FACT

o "Hockey mom": true for a few years
o "PTA mom": true years ago when her first-born was in elementary school, not since
p "NRA supporter": absolutely true
o social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships (said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
o pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to promote it.
o "Pro-life": mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down's syndrome baby BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life legislation.
o "Experienced": Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska.
No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city administrator to run town of about 5,000.
o political maverick: not at all
o gutsy: absolutely!
o open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at explaining actions.
o has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
o "a Greenie": no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
o fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
o pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built streets to early 20th century standards.
o pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on residents.
o pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city government in Wasilla's history.
o pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union doesn't make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim that she is pro-labor/pro-union.

WHY AM I WRITING THIS?

First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne Kilkenny + Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local government, education, and PTA/parent organizations.

Secondly, I've always operated in the belief that "Bad things happen when good people stay silent". Few people know as much as I do because few have gone to as many City Council meetings.

Third, I am just a housewife. I don't have a job she can bump me out of. I don't belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will cost me somehow in the future: that’s life.

Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100 or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah's attempt at censorship.

Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to say anything because they were somehow vulnerable.

CAVEATS

I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor) from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of Wasilla, and I can't recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible for a private person to get any info out of City Hall — they are swamped. So I can't verify my numbers.

You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the population of Wasilla, ranging from my "about 5,000", up to 9,000. The day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was 5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to 2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s.

Anne Kilkenny
August 31, 2008

Melissa wrote on Sep 12^th, 2008 at 2:52pm:

Rosa, to learn more about 9/11, please check out START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE and watch the preview video of "102 Minutes that Changed America".

I watched the preview and found it to bring back a lot of feelings for me as well. I was watching the attacks from my television in Finland back then. Of course it's not the same, but I did.

The feeling I felt then was a mix of sympathy and dread. Sympathy for those who were trapped inside the buildings, dread because I knew right then that the world was going to change. And it has, with hundreds of thousands, even millions of dead as a direct or indirect result of the attacks.

I wanted to post a link to a video of a family in Iraq during being bombed, but regrettably I couldn't find any. They say that a picture tells more than a thousand words. Still, here's an excerpt from a blog written by Riverbend, a Baghdad resident:

---------------- BEGINNING QUOTE ----------------

Valium has always been available over the counter. Iraq is one of those countries where you can get almost any medication 'over the counter'. It actually depends on the pharmacy, but generally speaking, everything from sedatives to antibiotics are sold over the counter. Medication is also really cheap here. I mean *really* cheap. We had, prior to the blockade, one of the best pharmaceutical companies in the region- "Samarra Drugs" which made everything from amoxicillin to flu medicine.

Will asked if valium had become addictive after the war. Of course it has. Valium is a staple during wars. I remember when we were preparing for the war, we would make list after list of 'necessities'. One list was for pharmaceutical necessities. It included such basics as cotton, band-aids, alcohol, gauze and an ordinary painkiller. It also included medicines such as ampicloxine, codeine and valium. No one in the family takes valium, but it was one of those 'just in case' medications- the kind you buy and hope you never have to use.

We had to use it during the first week of April, as the tanks started rolling into Baghdad. We had an older aunt staying at our house (she had been evacuated from her area) and along with my cousin, his wife, his two daughters, and an uncle, the house was crowded and- at bizarre moments- almost festive.

The bombing had gotten very heavy and our eating, and sleeping schedules were thrown off balance. Everything seemed to revolve around the attack on Baghdad- we'd hastily cook and eat during the lulls in bombing and we'd get snatches of sleep in between the 'shock and awe'. There were a few nights where we didn't sleep at all- we'd just stay up and sit around, staring at each other in the dark, listening to the explosions and feeling the earth tremble beneath.

So imagine this. It's a chilly night in Baghdad and the black of the sky suddenly lights up with flashes of white- as if the stars were exploding in the distance. The bombing was so heavy, we could hear the windows rattling, the ground shaking and the whiz of missiles ominously close. We were all gathered in the windowless hallway- adults and children. My cousin's daughters were wrapped in blankets and they sat huddled up close to their mother. They were so silent, they might have been asleep- but I knew they weren't because I could vaguely see the whites of their eyes, open wide, across the lamp-lit hallway.

Now, during the more lively hours of a shock and awe bombing storm, there's no way you can have a normal conversation. You might be able to blurt out a few hasty sentences, but eventually, there's bound to be an explosion that makes you stop, duck your head and wonder how the house didn't fall down around you.

Throughout this, we sit around, mumbling silent prayers, reviewing our lives and making vague promises about what we'd do if we got out of this one alive. Sometimes, one of us would turn to the kids and crack some lame joke or ask how they were doing. Often, the answer would be in the form of a wane smile or silence.

So where does the valium fit in? Imagine through all of this commotion, an elderly aunt who is terrified of bombing. She was so afraid, she couldn't, and wouldn't, sit still. She stood pacing the hallway, cursing Bush, Blair and anyone involved with the war- and that was during her calmer moments. When she was feeling especially terrified, the curses and rampage would turn into a storm of weeping and desolation (during which she imagines she can't breathe)- we were all going to die. They would have to remove us from the rubble of our home. We'd burn alive. And so on. And so forth.

During those fits of hysteria, my cousin would quietly, but firmly, hand her a valium and a glass of water. The aunt would accept both and in a matter of minutes, she'd grow calmer and a little bit more sane. This aunt wasn't addicted to valium, but it certainly came in handy during the more hectic moments of the war.

---------------- END QUOTE ----------------

Rosa, I don't understand why you're countering 9/11 with Iraq?  I guess it's because the anniversary of 9/11 was just 2 days ago, and so fresh in peoples minds is why I posted what I did.  Why did you post yours??

I can't imagine how much valium my friend and fellow clusterhead, Andrea's dad, will have to take to get rid of the images of his daughter being on the 96th floor when those planes hit.

Maybe there isn't enough valium....

Quote:

Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996

I am sure her report is completely unbiased. ::)

Rosa,
I'm like some of the rest, what does Iraq have to do with 9/11 (and how did 9/11 get on this thread?)?

Melissa and Brew,

I posted the excerpt from the blog because I see 9/11 intimately tied with the War in Iraq. Didn't one lead to the other? I wanted to show that misery and death is horrible, no matter where it happens, and we all should do our best to not to have it happen anymore...anywhere.

Like I said before, I certainly didn't and don't mean any disrespect to those or the family members of those who died or suffered during 9/11. I don't want any kind of contest or argument.

I just want world peace and a happy life for everyone. It's an utopistic dream but it nevertheless is my dream.

Brew, I'm very sorry for your friend's loss. Children shouldn't feel terror or die violent deaths - anywhere.

Ungweliante wrote on Sep 13^th, 2008 at 10:13am:

Melissa and Brew, I posted the excerpt from the blog because I see 9/11 intimately tied with the War in Iraq. Didn't one lead to the other?

No.  They are not tied.  Al Queda attacked us, not Iraq.  And as for the Iraq war, I watched the United Nations conferences on the 13(?) resolutions that Iraq was not following which led up to the war.  

People are having a very hard time separating the two, and I blame a lot of that on the media which is supposed to INFORM the public. ::)

Rosa - I've vowed not to get involved in political discussions on this site anymore. I will only point out how the actions of others have affected me or those I love, isolating those actions from politics. You can believe what you want to believe.

Well, as a hater of most media outlets, I will oddly enough defend them in this case.

9-11 and Iraq got linked because our current "President" used the words "Al qaeda" and "Iraq" in the same sentence over 900 times in his speechs over her term. The press would be dumb to not cover the president speaking I assume. Actually, in the case of this president they would be smart.

It is super clear now that Al qaeda and Iraq have not had anything to do with each other. In fact Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain were enemies with opposing viewpoints.

deltadarlin wrote on Sep 13^th, 2008 at 10:12am:

Rosa, I'm like some of the rest, what does Iraq have to do with 9/11 (and how did 9/11 get on this thread?)?

The honest answer is that 9-11 led to the US attack on Iraq. It made Americans so angry that they were willing to support anything against 'those people over there' ... except those weren't the people that attacked us.

Melissa blames the media - and it is true that they did not ask the hard questions because they were afraid of being portrayed as unpatriotic. But who led the calls for war against Iraq, claiming and implying that Iraq was linked to Al Qaeda?  Doesn't the real blame lie there?  

Sarah Palin seems to suggest there is a link between 9-11 and Iraq. When she was addressing her son and other troops preparing to leave for Iraq on 9-11 (is that a coincidence, or what?) she said:

“You’ll be there to defend the innocent from the enemies who planned and carried out and rejoiced in the deaths of thousands of Americans. You’ll be there because America can never go back to that false sense of security that came before Sept. 11, 2001.”

Some have said that she was referring not to Al Qaeda, but to the various insurgents that have have planned attacks on American troops in Iraq .... OK, but that begs the question: if we didn't invade because 9-11, they wouldn't have planned those attacks and killed American troops.

monty wrote on Sep 13^th, 2008 at 2:40pm:

deltadarlin wrote on Sep 13th, 2008 at 10:12am: Rosa, I'm like some of the rest, what does Iraq have to do with 9/11 (and how did 9/11 get on this thread?)? The honest answer is that 9-11 led to the US attack on Iraq. It made Americans so angry that they were willing to support anything against 'those people over there' ... except those weren't the people that attacked us.

Thats not quite right.  Americans were virtually all in agreement that we needed to go into Afganistan.  Bin Laden was believed to be there and the 2 big terrorist groups both were heavily in Afganistan.
I believe virtually all Americans would have been in agreement to then go to other countries that posed a terror threat to America.  Any country on the top 10 terrorist watch list would have been fine.

Rather than do that, we invaded Iraq instead.  I don't know many people except for Sean Hanity and Bush Jr. who thought Iraq posed a real or iminent threat.  I certainly never believed it.  

9/11 tied to Iraq?

It certainly is now thanks to Bush. In effect, the invasion has served as a recruiting service for Al qaeda. Now thousands of 16 year old children with little to look forward to, consider suicide bombing and terrorism as a way to make a mark in their likely short lives.

Charlie

You're right on Charles.

And every family that loses a loved on becomes sympotheitic to the terrorist and is likely to help them. And the chances of future generations having anti-american sentiment if far greater.

We, in effect, are creating our worst nightmare.

But what does Bush care? No one he knows or cares about will ever be in any danger, here or abroad.