I am a "right' winger but what I have been subjected to in the last week just fries my nuts.  So help me god I swear the "liberal left" wears a cloak of bull shit.  OK, I work at Syracuse University and I am in the middle of moving two buildinge into a new complex.  I moved a lab two weeks ago (two occupents of the lab would make PC look hick)  They refered  to the movers as "Monkeys"  

Please help me here as to why someone would refer to another human being as a monkey................The movers are Hispanic, mixed race.   This comment came from a new professor, california white....real liberal.......... I guess being tolerant is OK until it means YOU are not inconvienced.  

I guess one can pontificate liberalism, vote liberal but when the hammer meets the nail............

The person that made the comment; was in reference to some Jamacan workers.  One of the Jamacian guys said to me he wanted to start his own buisness.  He is here leagly and works hard.  He and his crew bust their balls moving stuff and they listen to what has to be done.
I guess being liberal is OK to be accepting and Liberal and tollerant if all goes your way.  If not, the true colors show.  

A liberal woman in a university setting saying that "black and hispanic workers" are Monkeys.......This woman will vote for Obama.  Gives you pause.

To this person, I say....FUCK YOU!  You keep you preduice comments to yourself

Rant off.
-P.

For dyed-in-the-wool liberal, intellectual types, it's not about what they believe, it's about what others believe they believe.

What a lot of them really believe would curl your toenails.

Yup, Paul, I agree with your anger.

Here in the bible belt, it surprises me how prejudiced and phony some of the supposedly "good Christians" are.

GAWD I get pissed when I see it (VERY often, too!) ...

Chuck

Racists make me so mad. My cousin is married to an El Salvadoran, and  they have two beautiful babies. It makes me mad to even THINK about them being mistreated because someone cannot look beyond the color of someones skin...

ClusterChuck wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 12:17am:

Here in the bible belt, it surprises me how prejudiced and phony some of the supposedly "good Christians" are. Chuck

agreed.  don't even get me started about the phony baloney that happens here in the 'belt'.  When I first moved to NC, I lived in   Mayberry-  -  WOW!!!  Sure it happens all over , but it was more like Church on sunday and wednesdays and klan rally on saturdays  for some... :-/

Quote:

They refered  to the movers as "Monkeys"

Paul...or anyone.  Please explain to me what that bigoted comment has to do with politics?  There are people who are too dumb to have ANY politics at all who say shit like this.  So what has that to do with liberals or  right-wingers ?

Paul, I'm right with you. In my family we're real ecumentical - I have a black great nephew, a hispanic nephew, gay neices, some good old red-neck nephews (who need their little behinds kicked ever once in a while), a PHD who's totally PC (and pregidice as hell and looks down on all of us) :).

But for the most part my little part of the family has been brought up without pregidice against anyone (there's people we don't like, but it's because they're a$$holes and not because of their color or creed).

I'm happy that people do well, get a good education, but when they forget their raising - someone needs to remind them... it just pisss me off royally when they look "down" on others. The people they're looking down on are probably a lot happier and better off than they are.

Hugs BD

Not a question of liberal or conservative.  It's professors!

I work at a university also and the faculty think they are better than God.  Some are decent but a lot are arrogant pricks!

Bob P wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 8:30am:

Not a question of liberal or conservative.  It's professors! I work at a university also and the faculty think they are better than God.  Some are decent but a lot are arrogant pricks!

Not a whole lot of conservative professors out there. Some, yes.

Linda_Howell wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 1:35am:

Quote: They refered  to the movers as "Monkeys"   Paul...or anyone.  Please explain to me what that bigoted comment has to do with politics?  There are people who are too dumb to have ANY politics at all who say shit like this.  So what has that to do with liberals or  right-wingers ?

It's been the left's mantra for years that they are accepting and open-minded and that the right's are racists and isolationists.  

Agostino Leyre wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 8:46am:

Linda_Howell wrote on Oct 13th, 2008 at 1:35am: Quote: They refered  to the movers as "Monkeys"   Paul...or anyone.  Please explain to me what that bigoted comment has to do with politics?  There are people who are too dumb to have ANY politics at all who say shit like this.  So what has that to do with liberals or  right-wingers ? It's been the left's mantra for years that they are accepting and open-minded and that the right's are racists and isolationists.

Bingo!

-P.

I'm old enough to have heard it all. I heard every epithet there was growing up in the 50s. New York State was full of Klansmen before the war and some of them were still around when I was a kid. It was largely anti-Catholic at the time. There was a considerable amount of anti-Italian BS in my town. It wasn't just Catholic. My best friend introduced himself as French rather than Italian. If your name ended with a vowel, you heard some incredibly stupid shit. It was something but the 60s did a real job on this it. Those liberal professors taught us well.

I guess I don't have to go into all the others. You know them well.

It's great being around you youngsters. You have no idea....

Charlie

Charlie wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 9:31am:

Those liberal professors taught us well.

That's open for debate. ;)

Paul98 wrote on Oct 12^th, 2008 at 10:50pm:

I moved a lab two weeks ago (two occupents of the lab would make PC look hick)  They refered  to the movers as "Monkeys"   Please help me here as to why someone would refer to another human being as a monkey................The movers are Hispanic, mixed race.   This comment came from a new professor, california white....real liberal.......... I guess being tolerant is OK until it means YOU are not inconvienced.

Paul,

I would not for a minute, under any circumstances, try to defend racism - but I believe that you may have gotten all worked up over a misunderstanding.

Thirty years ago I was working with a fellow from Oklahoma who would routinely use "Monkeys" to describe workers, with absolutely no racial or ethnic overtones.  He would use it to describe white, black, hispanic, or anybody else, including me.  If anything, it was slightly complimentary, as it suggested people who were busy, agile, and hard-working.  Remember Howard Cosell's infamous comment, "Would you look at that little monkey run?".  I do not believe for a minute that that was intended as a racist comment, but it was sure blown up into one.

It just happens that over the last year,I have been spending a lot of time in Oklahoma on business, and I am again hearing the term, and again, there seems to be no bigotry involved at all - just a figure of speech.  "Man, those monkeys swarmed all over that scaffold, and got the job done in half the time we thought it would take!"

I don't know much about California liberal college professors, but perhaps they're using it in the same context(?)

Just a thought.

Regards,
Jim

Jim you just stole my thunder - you monkey! JK - LOL  :)

Yeah, I too during my manual labor days have been refered to as a monkey and I am as "white as rice".

I heard this a few other places as well, that "monkey" would be a slang term, among others, for manual laborers of any race.

Quote:

Not a whole lot of conservative professors out there.

That's for sure!

Paul98 wrote on Oct 12^th, 2008 at 10:50pm:

I am a "right' winger... This comment came from a new professor, california white....real liberal..........

There wouldn't be good odds of hearing anything fond to post through the parti pris.

I think we should all quit trying to justify what the man said.  Because we didn't actually hear what he said and didn't get the context "from the horse's mouth" we are assuming a lot.  I'm sure that Paul understood exactly what the man was trying to say, as he was actually in his presence and "heard" it.  Racism is still alive and well today, I know it's shameful that it is, but until people step up and face it head-on, it will never go away.  I for one can not tolerate that type of behaviour no matter who it is from.

I would never infer that racism doesn't exisit. in fact I think everyone is racist. I took a course called "Isms and Issues" that dealt a good deal with racism.

An example, on my football team I would make an extra effort to reach out to the black players on my team (I am white, fyi). That is racism. I was trying to do something positive but in all actuallity I was being racist. Treating anyone different because thier race is different than yours is racism.

My point was that we all, including Paul, could be assuming what the person meant. We all see / hear things through our own subconcious filters, and those filters change daily. I was sharing my simular experinece for his benefit, not justifying anyone. Paul is entilted to think and do as he sees fit. If he disagrees with my comment that is ok by me, but I thought we posted these things to help each other.

Peace out

This may be the wrong place for this...but...  

I've noticed thru the years that most (not all) "racist" people don't have a problem one on one with other people....it's groups they have a problem with. It's funny to see someone that supposedly hates a group, go fishing with a member of that group. When you ask them about it...  "oh...that's <insert name here> , he/she is different." They don't realize that faceless group they dislike is made up of people just like their fishing buddy.

I'm also convinced that humans are hardwired to look down on others. Non smokers look down on smokers, the educated look down on those that aren't, Honda owners look down on people that drive Fords, linux users look down on Windows people, people in offices look down on the person digging a ditch.....the list is endless.

I'll shut up now.....  ;)

With Professors it's not a race issue, it's a class issue.  Because of their self percieved superior intellect, everyone else is a monkey regardless of their actual race.

Problem is, the strictly book leraned profs are dubmer than a steaming pile of dog shit!  They could really use some real life lessons.

Oh well, 7 months & 2 days and I won't have to deal with them any more.  Trout, deer, snow and a few skeeters will be my company.

Depends on the context and what the person meant. Calling a mechanic a grease monkey is not necessarily racist.  I know a few computer people that call themselves code monkeys and CAD monkeys.

superhawk2300 wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 12:27pm:

in fact I think everyone is racist.

Just wow.

Anything constructive to add Bill?

superhawk2300 wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 12:56pm:

Anything constructive to add Bill?

No. You've kind of said it all.

I think the definition of racist is what varies.

Is it racist to look twice when I see a person who looks Moroccan near me at night time?  (I was mugged at night time in public by 2 Moroccans with knives).

Is it racist to use words you were taught by your parents that you never really knew were offensive but are?

I think too many people get labeled racist because of things that aren't hateful or evil.  People's definition of what makes someone racist is what really differs.  First time I met my wife's family (and a few times since) I have heard them use the term "jewed them down" in front of me.  They didn't realize that the term was offensive, so I ignored it.  (I think my wife may have said something when I wasn't around).  I don't consider them racist.

Anyway, I think it would help to define the term racist thoroughly before you label people with it.

Let me ask a question. (a bit off topic)

Say I'm walking down the street and come across 3 teenage boys.  They are dressed in baggy pants, hats on backwards, lots of bling and some rap music blaring in the car they're leaning on.

If they are black, I tend to get nervous and wonder what they are doing there.

If they are white, I can deal, as I am white too, but I still am a little leary.

BTW, I grew up in the early 90's.

Do you think this makes me racist?

(yes, this is a baited question)

Personally, I think we analyze things to death.

If I see kids with pants hanging down to their knees (black or white) I just wonder where their mother's are and what they were thinking to let them go out like that.

I've never been mugged so I don't know what I'd feel if I had (maybe my opinion would change) but I've been in some pretty bad parts of places where it was likely and really didn't consider it (Good Lord protects fools and innocents I guess). Did get my rear gropped in NYC one night. After I figured out what had happened, I thought it was funny as the devil and so did my hubby. He asked if I wanted to catch up with the guy so he'd do it again.

I don't take "undue" risks (or what I consider "undue") but I also don't look for a boogyman behind every face I meet. I don't judge a book by its cover in other words.

If everyone would just be themselves and quit trying to figure out what everyone expects them to be we'd be a lot better off. Then we wouldn't have the raceism and a whole lot less jackasses.....

This is only my opinion and does not reflect the opinions of our sponsers..... :-*

Hugs BD

Know what?  Nobody has to answer my question.  Besides, I know I'm not a racist.

I DO know that there are many things I'm unfamiliar with, and am hoping that I can acquaintance myself to them before I am dead and buried. :)

Racial stereotyping maybe.

Plug for the family here - My son-in-law made a short film on stereotyping - "The Lunch Date".  Won an Oscar & Palm de Ore for it.

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Ya know?  I honestly think it's perception.  I grew up watching MTV and at the time they had on a ton of rappers that'd have videos depicting guns, gangs and violence.  What they were wearing seemed to tie my brain into what I'd experience when coming in contact with people who dressed and acted the same way as the guys in those videos.

Now when the movement of rap first began, it wasn't all about that, it was about equality and oppression, from what I can remember.  My mom never taught me about color.  When she'd talk about people, she'd use their names or say "that guy" or "that woman", not "that black guy" or "that black lady".

I do the same with my kids, because I don't see color.  Maybe it's just the clothes??  I want to get over my perception of that.

Is this the one Bob?

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Bob, I'm letting it load now...

Fram - I can relate. I grew up in a very rural area and was not familiar with the "cheap Jew" stereotype. I just didn't have any exposure to any Jews (or any other etnic groups for that matter, besides one black kid, who was adoped by white parents, the guidance person at my school).
So when I heard "he jooed him down" I didn't make the connection.
Fast forward to young adult hood, me talking to my Jewish boss about purchasing some stuff and I say "you think we can joo him down?" Ouch. I had to explain I though it was a general slang term (joo). It turned out to be funny, after a while. I guess this better illustrates my original post about the "monkey" comment.

I also told my white guitar teacher once that I was "white" when I could not play a certain swingy riff and he blew a gasket at me for being racist, and I was talking about myself.

I think most people think they are not racist. Just like another poster pointed out that most people think they are middle-class. I know many people who tell "black person jokes" and think they are not racist. There are KKK members who profess they are not racist. The list is endless in this fashion.

The courses I took taught that racism doesn't have to be lynching or full of hatred adn can even have positive intentions. Assume "seperate but equal" could be executed to fairness - is that racism? They taught that anytime someone is viewed as different because of their race, for better or worse, that thought, by definition, if racist (or why else would the thought exist?)

How many people here can honestly say that when they see someone of another color they judge every single thing about that person the exact same as if they were the same color as themselves? In my mind it would be impossible. I'm not saying that means people are evil or bad, just it is too hard to seperate ourselves from our subconcious filters.

A room with two tables, each has one space left. One table is filled with people of another race as you and the other table is filled with people of the same race as you. You  must choose to sit at a table, for a long long time, and have less than a second to decide. Honestly which table do you sit at?

Hey, not trying to be preachy here. I included a couple of examples of my cluelessness here as well.......I just love deeper discussions, and I think the danger for me is when I start to assume that my unexamined thoughts are not something (i.e. I am not racist because I am not a KKK member, or I have a black friend, etc.) Please read this as intentioned to be thought provoking and an atempt on my part to learn more about myself.

Peace!

I like your comment about the clothes Mel.

Long story short I had a guy who would avoid me, so I asked him one day what the deal was. He said that because of my shaved head and my leather jacket and boots that I was a neo-nazi type that was full of hatred.

Once I explained I wore the jacket and boots because I rode a motorcycle and I shaved my head because I was too insecure to run the "naturally partially / mostly bald look" he was ok.

Bob- watching the video, I had an inkling as to what happened, but I waited until the end to judge.

I was right.  ;D

Awesome!

superhawk- see?  that doesn't scare me because I know of many people who dress that way.  So to me it isn't true of "clothes define the person".  Because they truely don't, and that is what I'm trying to get over.  I remembering watching the Sean Penn movie "Into the Wild" and how he was perceived as homeless, when in fact he was not and it was his choice to live the way he was living.  I loved that movie, and especially loved the ending.  Anyway, it's all perception.  Allthough there are many still out there who are taught hate, and when hate is all you know, it takes education and experience to get beyond that.

:)

Thanks Mel! I DO see and you've summed up my lengthy disertation in your last sentence. I wish I was even remotly close to as efficiant as you!

I will have to rent that movie as well. I love challenging my perceptions and stuff like that, hence all the posts like this one.

cheers!

That's the one Linda.  Here's his list of stuff:

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ClusterChuck wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 12:17am:

Yup, Paul, I agree with your anger. Here in the bible belt, it surprises me how prejudiced and phony some of the supposedly "good Christians" are. GAWD I get pissed when I see it (VERY often, too!) ... Chuck

Chuck, are all cars the same just because they get parked in a garage?  Just because someone goes to a church does not make him a Christian any more than liveing in a garage makes you a Cadilac.  Obama's pastor is as racist as any KKK member, but from the other side.  You cannot equate church going or membership by itself to real Christianity.  Jesus Christ reached out to non Jews and was criticized for it.

Jerry

Callico wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 5:43pm:

ClusterChuck wrote on Oct 13th, 2008 at 12:17am: Yup, Paul, I agree with your anger. Here in the bible belt, it surprises me how prejudiced and phony some of the supposedly "good Christians" are. GAWD I get pissed when I see it (VERY often, too!) ... Chuck Chuck, are all cars the same just because they get parked in a garage?  Just because someone goes to a church does not make him a Christian any more than liveing in a garage makes you a Cadilac.  Obama's pastor is as racist as any KKK member, but from the other side.  You cannot equate church going or membership by itself to real Christianity.  Jesus Christ reached out to non Jews and was criticized for it. Jerry

I think he understands this point.  However, he was more pointing out the hypocrisy in some "Christians" which is quite disturbing.  As a Christian, I can assume that bothers you immensely.  Isn't it more sad that those who hear the teachings of Jesus would be able to walk outside the Church and be racist and hateful when Jesus taught love and being a servant to ALL men.

FramCire wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 2:12pm:

I think the definition of racist is what varies. Is it racist to look twice when I see a person who looks Moroccan near me at night time?  (I was mugged at night time in public by 2 Moroccans with knives).

Ummmmmm Woobie here. 8-)

How can you tell if someone is Moroccan???  (just wondering?) :P

OK - so for those of you who dont know us... Ramon is 1/2 black, I am white.  We are married.. we have two girls.  

Our daughter.. alyssa...(she's 14.)  Came home from school one day and said "HEY MOM - did you know that I'm BLACK!?"   And she was serious!!  She didnt know!   I was FLOORED!   I didnt know I had to TELL her!  I never thought about that!  

Ramon (her FATHER) is black.. she knew that.  Ramon's father passed when he was 15, so she only met his WHITE mother.. but she has met her great Grandmother, and she's seen pictures of Ramon's father.
 So I just assumed that she would know that she is black too, but apparently she never connected it.  She doesnt look black.  But I never thought about it.  Ever.  

I thought it was funny at first.. .. then I thought - shit.. how do i handle this!?  I dont wanna screw it up and say something stupid.  So - like I normally do in tough situations, I told ramon to talk to her.  He handled it.   Geesh.  I didnt know what to do!

A couple weeks ago - I told her to do something.. and she started laughing and said "OK, CRACKER!".  

Now, I thought it was halarious that she called me a cracker.    I didnt even know she knew what that was... but Ramon got PISSED and said ... very calmly.. (which is worse than yelling).. "I don't EVER want to hear another racial slur of any kind coming out of your mouth again... ESPECIALLY to your mother, understand?"

He left the room and she said to me "what's a racial slur mean".   I told her to go look it up... and she did.   She said she was sorry... and told ramon she was sorry and they talked about it for a while.

but - (and i'll never tell alyssa or ramon this) - I thought it was FUNNY.  She called me a cracker!   Am I wrong to think it was funny?  Cuz I almost called her a GRAHAM CRACKER.. before Ramon jumped in.  I would have gotten the lecture too!    

Hell - I dont know.. but it struck me as funny and I wasnt mad at her.  I didnt even think to correct her for using a racial slur.  Is that bad???  And I was gonna call HER a name right back?   Is that DOUBLY bad??   We always joke around - and it would have been a normal joking - ha ha - funny thing like we always do..

should I have been mad??   I dont know.  I dont THINK like that  - so I dont know ...  I think Ramon was right to say what he said to her.. and he's right - of course - but i still thought it was funny.  

Ramon asked me later why I wasnt mad.  I couldnt answer.  He said "how would you like it if I called you a cracker?"  Well, as far as I think.... I am white.  I am a cracker.  So what?  It's not offensive TO ME.  I'm not that uptight.  Maybe someone else.. but not me.  I wouldnt be offended.  Well.. ramon said he would never call me a cracker.  But - ramon never calls anyone any names.. ever.  It's just not the way he is.. so - whatever.. that was just a funny thing that happened..

The thing I feel bad about is that... well... race never came up.  Now Alyssa KNOWS she's black.  (The secret is out.   :o  )   She asked me "well what does it mean?"   Im like "what do you mean what does it mean?   Are you different now than you were before you "found out"?     I just told her to be herself and dont worry about what color she is.. she is alyssa and we are her parents.. white black, whatever.  we are the same as we were before she "found out".  
Then i told her that color is not an issue.  She looked at me like I was crazy.  So i told her to go talk to ramon.. cuz i didnt know what to tell her..
I wasnt sure if she was upset by learning she's black - or what?  She wont tell me - she says i wouldnt understand and she's probably right.. but damn.  How did i screw this uP??   if she's upset by being black, then i'm really screwed here.  

Ramon and her have been talking, and now i'm out of the loop.  "it's a black thing and you wouldnt understand"  has been used around here way too much lately! and I'm starting to get pissed about it!  

How is it not OK for her to call me a cracker, but they can go around laughing about their blackness and leaving me OUT???????  They're all buddy buddy now... leaving my cracker ass out!  WTF?   I think they're being prejudice against me now!!!   my OWN PEOPLE!     ;D :D

LOL _ OK - it's passed my bedtime and i'm rambling.. I apologize..
sorry..........

so - that's my story..
carry on...........

luv you guys..
woobs :-*

Woobs...I love you!!! :-*

I can see a span of 100 years just in your household right now. ;D

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is actually a good thing to look to the future by NOT dwelling on the past, know what I mean? ;)

BTW, I always tell my kids they were hatched by chickens, because chickens can't talk and they've always been...well...chickens. :-/

OK - lol - i have to admit that i dont know what you mean by a span of 100 years....

but - remind me to tell you about it some time.. (not now - it's wayyyyyyyyyyy passed my bedtime... and it's not my thread.. ) :D

I was gonna ... and i had it all typed out - but it was soooooooooo long . i seriously almost ran out of remaining characters... yes - 55000 plus.  it was long.. :-/

 LOL  it's passed my  bedtime!!!

smooch
woobs :-*

Hey Woobs..  :-*  You never fail to crack me up!!

I suppose that maybe if Alyssa (how are those beautiful girls of yours anyways) has mixed feelings or is somewhat upset about it, Ramon could possibly be trying to give her something positive to joke about.  
Teenagers are tough customers.  It's not easy to realize that you may possibly be on the receiving end of some racist crap because of your roots, so to speak.  It could also be causing a shift in how feels about how others see her in the world.  I could see why you'd feel like you're being left out of their new connection though, 'specially because you brought her into the world - and remind her you can take her and Ramon out of it too.   8-)

I used to try to ignore the racist stuff that comes up - try to take the high road and laugh at the ignorance.  It's surprising what people surmise by how you look.  My mother came here legally, I was born here, and so was my daughter and her father.  But when someone calls your child a dirty chocolate mexican piece of _hit... I couldn't ignore it anymore.  It would be nice to pretend racism doesn't exist - and my daughter is much more profoundly positive that it doesn't- but having been a target of  3 large examples of it in the past year, it's been eye-opening for her.  She's more aware but staying positive.    

Give Crash a nuggie for me - if its really bothering you, talk to him when Alyssa isn't there and let him know how you feel.  I know you know how to do that Woobs.. LOL..

Hugs,
Pep

Woobs... when my son was about 3 he'd heard the "n" word used somewhere (not at home, but somewhere). He was at my mom's office one day when a black man walked in (just happened to be head of the NAACP in the area and a really NICE man). My little boy, in all his "innocence" asked him if he was a "n". Mr. Turner calmly sat down (while Mom was in her office having a heart attack) and explained to him that "no" he wasn't and why he shouldn't use that word, etc. I don't think the child ever said that word again and corrected anyone who did.

In later years that was one of Mr. Turner's favorite stories.

I grew up with segregation and didn't think it was right then, did what I could in the 60s for Civil Rights and hate to see racism in any form now.

I agree with you about the cracker joke. You gotta have a sense of humor without taking offense. That's what keeps the fires stirred. I have a black friend that I introduce as the black sheep of the family and he introduces me as his white cousin (his nephew married a girl with my maiden name and it's been a running joke with us for 10 years) Neither of us take offense and neither does anyone who knows us white or black.

Keep on being you ... I love your whole family just like they are...

Hugs BD

It's called profiling and is also part of exclusionism Mel. We all do it. I think for most of us it's part of some survival instinct. I doubt that it will ever go away. Don't think bad of youself. Religious sects are the most obvious forms of exclusionism.

In my little town, Jews were rare. I heard just about every slur there is. "Jewing down" is an old one just like calling someone a "Shylock." I haven't heard it around here in years but it's a slow death for these terms in movies and "The Sopranos."

When you do a gun show, you find just about every disgusting thing thing there is. It's not the NRA but the some of the Nazi throwbacks that attend the things.......women as well.

Oh. Some time ago, I guess in the 70s, some Falwell types decided to deliberately confuse liberal arts professors with liberals. One who is a liberal arts graduate tends to become liberal when they are exposed to lots of other views. The mixing of the two was one more tweeking of politics by the right. It works some of the time.

Charlie

Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity.

How come, those people who consider themselves to be part of the ''Herrenvolk'' (Masterrace) are never the brightest bulb in the shed? How's that for ironic?

Nazi skinheads: more hair than brains.

Pascal. :(