I'm planning to try RC seeds in the Spring.  I take Lexapro daily.  Will it interfere with the seeds?  I just read on another thread that it might.

As always, thanks for your help!

Jeannie  

Please go to

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and read everything there.  EVERYTHING.  There is alot of very good and important information there for anyone considering taking this avenue of treatment.

After reading all the different links, please come back for clarification on any remaining questions you may have.

Best of Luck

Hi Jeannie,

I once, years back, took a recreational dose of mushrooms while I was on prozac (fluoxetine, also an SSRI), unbeknownst of the fact that it increases the entheogenic working enormously.
So you should be aware of that, especially if that is not your purpose.

Hope this helps, Pascal.

Uh, I hate to argue with you, Pascal, but SSRI's actually negate the functionality of the other indole ring hallucinogens, including psilocybin, psilocin, LSA (seeds), LSD, DMT and the others.  I don't know what happened with your previous experience, but I've done a lot of research into this, and I'll try to dig up the links to the documentation, but they know for a fact that once your receptors have "hooked up" with the SSRI, then it is shut off to any additional receptor antagonists until the medication wears off.

Most of the SSRI's have a half-life of 24-48 hours, so the recommended "detox" time is 5 days off of the meds before you dose.
But go and read EVERYTHING on clusterbusters and all of the links it will send you to.

Again, not trying to be contrary Pascal, but there's hard documentation out there...I'll find it and post.  Could you have been taking something else that gave you a cross-reaction?  That's why they need approval for more research- so we can really KNOW what to take and not take with these drugs!!

Maybe you are right Radar. I am only talking of my experience at that time, don't know any science behind it. Could be the beer involved, though I always believed that would decrease the working.
Anyway, if you are absolutely sure about it, I'll apologize to Jeannie for providing wrong information.

It would be greatly appreciated if you do post those links.

All the best,
Pascal.

Jeannie:  Given that they both directly act on serotonin receptors, you run the risk of serotonin syndrome if you take seeds (or LSD or psilocybin) while on SSRIs.

UnderTheRadar - if you can find those links, I'd really appreciate it.  I used to have several, but lost my bookmarks in a computer crash a while ago.  I'll put some time into it and see if I can relocate any of them.

Keep us posted Jeannie!

Laurie

This (rather old) information suggests that it UndertheRadar is correct; although escitalopram (Lexapro, Cipralex) is not mentioned:

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If in doubt, leave it out.

-Lee

Edited after a re-read of the information

Found this:

Handbook of Neurotoxicology, Vol II by Edward J. Massaro, Humana Press P. 237 - 238

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"3.2.2. Interactions of Hallucinogens and Acutely Administered SSRI

Acute co-administration of SSRIs in combination with hallucinogens has also been reported.  We initially published a case report of an individual who ingested fluoxetine prior to ingesting LSD and noted a potentiation of the hallucinogenic responses 108 and have had numberous individuals subsequently report that a variety of SSRIs can increase the response to both tryptamine and phenethylamine hallucinogens.
    SSRIs block the serotonin transporter from recycling serotonin back into the presynaptic bouton, increasing serotonin in the synapse.  Among SSRIs are Fluoxetine, paroxetine, sertraine, and fluvoxamine.  The acute potentiating effect between hallucinogens and SSRIs may not be surprising given that there are a handful of case reports in the medical literature indicating that SSRIs have been self-administered acutely by individuals wiht drug-abuse histories for their reinforcing effects (109-113).  In fact, many of the respondents in our study noted that during the early phase of taking an SSRI as treatment for depression, they experienced sensations that they identified as distinctly similar to the first hour or two following hallucinogen administration.  Although hallucinogen action is clearly correlated to stimulation of 5HT-2 receptors, the ability of SSRIs to induce symptoms reminiscent of hallucinogens in experienced users suggest the intriguing prospect that the serotonin transporter may play a role in hallucinogenesis."
   
"3.2.3. Interactions of Hallucinogens and Chronically Administered Antidepressants

Chronic administration of antidepressants have vastly different effects on the hallucinogenic response than acute administration of antidepressants, suggesting that adaptive neural changes are responsible.  Although acute administration of SSRIs or MAOIs can increase the response to hallucinogens, individuals who have taken an SSRI or an MAOI for at least 3 weeks have a dramatic reduction or complete abolishment of the hallucinogenic effects from LSD (108, 116).  ....The differential effect of various antidepressant agents on the response to LSD, dependent upon duration of treatment, is pharmacologically complex...."

and it then proceeds to discussion of specific receptors, responsiveness of receptors, and serotonin levels.

Bottom line - it appears that the use of SSRIs or tricyclic antidepressants, if taken individually with the hallucinogen (LSA, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, etc.) will boost the effect - but if used for any length of time as treatment for a condition, the same drug (other than potentially the tricyclic antidepressants, as discussed in the link provided by Lee) will inhibit the action of the hallucinogen.

Comes to the same conclusion.... best to detox off of antidepressants of any variety prior to dosing with any type of hallucinogen.  Either they'll suppress the therapeutic effect or you run the risk of serotonin syndrome OR amplified hallucinogenic experience.

And given that any clusterhead is seeking the medical benefit, not the "side effect," it just seems safest to detox prior to dosing.  

***************************************

The question is - if RC Seeds or Psilocybin (or LSD) are going to be used to bust a cycle, and more than one treatment is required (which is usually the case), what happens from going off the anti-depressant?  It's use can't be restarted during the busting treatment or it will (most likely) interfere with the effectiveness of the treatment.  

I know that many people are scared of the potential side effects of using the hallucinogens as way to bust their clusters.  But I think it important to know that a study of psilocybin as a potential treatment for depression (& other mental disorders) was/is being explored at Johns Hopkins.  

The Hopkins study was a randomized, placebo-controlled study, and though some experienced fear and anxiety during the experience, 79% of the participants reported "moderately or greatly increased well-being or life satisfaction compared with those given a placebo at the same test session.  A majority said their mood, attitudes and behaviors had changed for the better.  Structured interviews with family members, friends and co-workers generally confirmed the subjects' remarks."

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This sense of well-being lasted at least up to 14 months later:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Laurie

Thank you, Laurie!  That was very informative...although I know I saw an article with neat-o graphs and stuff that explained how the SSRI's keep the hallucinogens from "getting in the door" but that article you posted would make more sense...

I'll tell you all, I've been on zoloft for 6 years now, and when I first tried mushrooms a month ago to stop the clusters, it did NOTHING to me- even though my "shroom buddy" had a GRAND ol' time.  Well, the next day I found the info on clusterbusters saying I needed to detox off the zoloft.  So I did a quick detox (went from 50mg/day to 0mg in four days- very bad!) and my doctor told me I would need to be off of it for at least 4 days before I tried again.
 So then I did a low dose of RC seeds, and though I didn't trip (neither did my buddy) I did have three GLORIOUS PF days!!
 Now it's time to dose again, and then I'll wait five days, and do one more RC dose and get back on the zoloft.  Yes, it was VERY hard on my system to detox so fast- it gives me these weird, pulsating headaches on top of everything else...but I would MUCH rather push on through and get this over with than wait weeks and weeks to ramp down slowly.    :o
 No probs, Pascal- it's good to get these questions out there and find the hard data...again, I blame the #@$! FDA for keeping this stuff out of research for 40 years- it's a shame we have to play dice with our brains like this!! :D

Thanx a bunch for posting this very interesting and usefull information, Laurie!


Garys_Girl wrote on Nov 27^th, 2008 at 2:29pm:

Either they'll suppress the therapeutic effect or you run the risk of serotonin syndrome OR amplified hallucinogenic experience. And given that any clusterhead is seeking the medical benefit, not the "side effect," it just seems safest to detox prior to dosing.   *************************************** Laurie

 



At that time I was a wild child, mixing up anything I could find, not aware of the fact that mushrooms can be used as an abortative to a cycle. That was why I tried to warn to my fellow sufferers here who are not into a lifestyle I used to engage in but merely looking for relief.

After all, it seems obvious now that the prozac DID enhance in my case. Just as obvious as it can reduce the effects to other people.
Question I'm wondering about: will it also reduce the effects sought by clusterbusting?


Radar, if it weren't for the good people who've found out by trial and error what does work (energy drinks, psychedelics etc.) I'd still be climbing up and down the walls in pain. Not sure what the FDA is, but I'm guessing a healthcare department?
Anyway, I'll take your word if it's them to be pissed about in keeping appropiate research down.

PF days to you both (and all others here off course)!

Pascal.

Currently using kudzu, should i stop taking them before i try rc seeds?and shouild i take a brake in using high blood pressure medication? thanks.

The Kudzu is another indole-ring member.  That Kudzu helps is a good indication that LSA (seeds) or psilocybin (mushrooms) will work to bust the pain (if they don't work it doesn't mean seeds or shrooms won't work).  But yes, you should detox off the kudzu.

If you're on a high blood pressure med to treat high blood pressure (many clusterheads use verapamil, which is a calcium channel blocker med designed to treat high blood pressure), I think you really ought to consult with your physician first.  If you're using verapamil to treat the clusters, then yes, definitely detox.  If you're using something else to treat high blood pressure, I really would bring your doc into the discussion so you fully understand any risks you would be taking.

You can consider trying the seeds without detoxing off the high blood pressure med.  If it doesn't work, then have the discussion with your doc about the risk of coming off the meds.  

The most important thing is to not risk your health otherwise - and also to understand the mechanism of action of the med to determine whether or not it may interfere with the alternative cluster treatment.

Laurie

To Pascal's question- yes, when I tried mushrooms while still on zoloft, I had no hallucinogenic reaction AND it didn't seem to do anything for the headaches.  But hallucinogens with NO zoloft seems to be working... (crossing fingers!!!)

Oh, and the FDA is the US agency that made the hallucinogenic drugs illegal in the 60's, which made it pretty much impossible for scientists to get approval and funding for tests using those compounds- even though they had known for 30 years that these drugs cure migraines, clusters, OCD, alcoholism, and numerous other mental illnesses and psychological dysfunctions.  >:(

Excuse me if I'm incorrect here, but I thought that if you have a mental illness you shouldn't do the alternative treatment due to possibility of adverse effects? :-/

Mel is right about this.. there is a warning on the clusterbusters site on this topic and it is recomended reading...

UnderTheRadar wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 4:24am:

To Pascal's question- yes, when I tried mushrooms while still on zoloft, I had no hallucinogenic reaction AND it didn't seem to do anything for the headaches.  But hallucinogens with NO zoloft seems to be working... (crossing fingers!!!) Oh, and the FDA is the US agency that made the hallucinogenic drugs illegal in the 60's, which made it pretty much impossible for scientists to get approval and funding for tests using those compounds- even though they had known for 30 years that these drugs cure migraines, clusters, OCD, alcoholism, and numerous other mental illnesses and psychological dysfunctions.  >:(

Melissa wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 8:43am:

Excuse me if I'm incorrect here, but I thought that if you have a mental illness you shouldn't do the alternative treatment due to possibility of adverse effects? :-/

While UnderTheRadar overstates the potential therapeutic benefits a bit in this statement, you are both right.  

I think the decision by anyone considering alternative treatment should be an informed one.  There are potential risks to people who may have an underlying mental illness that has not yet been diagnosed - or, alternatively, there are potential benefits for certain Mental Health problems given the promising studies of psychedelics on various mental diseases.

To a certain extent, nullifying both of these is that fact that the studies in relation to LSD, psilocybin, or LSA in the treatment of cluster headaches are based upon very low doses - usually sub-hallucinogenic doses of the psychedelics.

Either way, it is VERY important to understand HOW to properly use any of the psychedelics for treating cluster headaches and the environment in which they should be used, and to have proper entertainment lined up and a support system in place to minimize the potential for negative side-effects.  :)  

**************************************

Quite a bit of research was conducted with LSD (as opposed to psilocybin or LSA) in the 50s and 60s.  After 30 years, in the 90s, the FDA did begin to approve on a very limited basis some studies that include psychedelics.

In addition to the psilocybin/LSA studies on cluster headaches, a study involving psilocybin and the treatment of physical and emotional pain of cancer treatments has been conducted at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center in CA, and a study of psilocybin in the treatment of OCD has been completed at the University of Arizona:
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Interestingly, a college student wrote his dissertation, "A Critical Review of Theories and Research Concerning LSD and Mental Health," in 1998 for his Master of Arts in Mental Health Studies at the University of Portsmouth.  It is an un-biased review of LSD and related studies, side-effects (psychosis, flashbacks) and outlines (IMO) very well the potential issues.  Notably, the conclusion is that LSD does not appear to provoke an earlier onset of an inevitable illness, nor does it appear that the use of LSD can "cause" a prolonged psychosis, though the research is "unclear in its use of controls, statistics and methodology."  But I believe this is a "must read" for anyone considering using alternative treatment for clusters.

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The same document reviews a number of studies for the therapeutic use of LSD.

As to UnderTheRadar's point that LSD has many therapeutic uses, that does appear to be the case - though studies conducted in the 1950s and 1960s were not performed to today's controlled standards, they do point to the value in continuing to pursue psychedelics as potential treatment for various mental illnesses.

"The Therapeutic Value of LSD in Mental Illness, Journal of Mental Science 100, 491 (1954):  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

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Laurie

Garys_Girl wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 2:51pm:

UnderTheRadar wrote on Nov 29th, 2008 at 4:24am: To Pascal's question- yes, when I tried mushrooms while still on zoloft, I had no hallucinogenic reaction AND it didn't seem to do anything for the headaches.  But hallucinogens with NO zoloft seems to be working... (crossing fingers!!!) Oh, and the FDA is the US agency that made the hallucinogenic drugs illegal in the 60's, which made it pretty much impossible for scientists to get approval and funding for tests using those compounds- even though they had known for 30 years that these drugs cure migraines, clusters, OCD, alcoholism, and numerous other mental illnesses and psychological dysfunctions.  >:( Melissa wrote on Nov 29th, 2008 at 8:43am: Excuse me if I'm incorrect here, but I thought that if you have a mental illness you shouldn't do the alternative treatment due to possibility of adverse effects? :-/ I think the decision by anyone considering alternative treatment should be an informed one.  There are potential risks to people who may have an underlying mental illness that has not yet been diagnosed

First of all, if they are on an antidepressant for depression, anxiety, etc., it really is not wise to try hallucinogens without doctor supervision IMO.


Quote:

- or, alternatively, there are potential benefits for certain Mental Health problems given the promising studies of psychedelics on various mental diseases.

That very well may be, but those administering psychedelic medications to treat mental disorders are done in a controlled setting under physician care.  

That's all I'm trying to say.  If you have a mental illness, do NOT just go off your meds to try psychedelics to treat CH without notifying your doctor first.

Absolutely!  While Docs may not "endorse" trying the alternatives, they can certainly help lay out the risks to each individual.  !!!!

Laurie

Garys_Girl wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:43pm:

The Kudzu is another indole-ring member.

Laurie,

Can you please provide a source for this comment?  I've never seen or heard this before.

Thanks,
Jim

O.U.C.H. January 2007 Newsletter (PDF) page 8:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

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Laurie

Kilowatt3 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 8:39pm:

Garys_Girl wrote on Nov 28th, 2008 at 11:43pm: The Kudzu is another indole-ring member. Laurie, Can you please provide a source for this comment?  I've never seen or heard this before. Thanks, Jim

Kudzu and indole ring
hallucinogens (LSD, LSA and psilocybin) and are known to work at serotonin receptors. ;)

Whoops- I should have been more clear, but I was trying not to write a 3-page essay.  ;)  I didn't mean to imply that simply taking a dose of LSD will cure a mental illness;  but if you start digging through old research papers and journals on MAPS, psychotherapists were very excited about the headway they were making by using LSD in a controlled setting as a tool in conjunction with therapy; some very remarkable case studies if you dig around.

But as for anyone who says that you shouldn't try hallucinogens if you are being treated for anxiety/depression "without a doctor's supervision", well....just how do you get doctor supervision to do an illegal drug?   ;)  No offense, but all that my caring and understanding GP could do was give me a timeline for getting the zoloft out of my system- and not everyone's doctor is even going to be THAT supportive.  And the cautions I've read about were aimed more towards schitzophrenia (sp?) and severe bipolar disorder, etc.

Really though, when I'm faced with months of cluster headaches that don't respond to conventional treatments,  I am going to try whatever I can!  But yes, I think we should at least notify our doctors of our intentions, whether they like it or not.   :)

This is my whole soapbox thing-they need to get it into labs, get it into trials, and get real hard data on how to use this stuff safely!!  It's like teaching abstinence- sure, great, but we all KNOW that everybody's doing it, so let's do it safely!  ;D

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.  It has been very informative.    

I believe that I will stop the Lexapro a few days before I try the seeds.  I take only a small daily dose and have been off of it before.  I really am not worried about that aspect of trying this method.  I have to admit that I am a little nervous about dosing.  Call me a prude but alcohol is about as hard core as I get.  I am not looking for a "high" of any kind... Just relief from CH.  

My cycle usually begins in March.  Should I dose at the first sign of a shadow or wait for a real hit?  Or..... should I just dose at the beginning of March regardless?

I normally take Verapamil, 360mg.  Last year I started it in Feb.  I only had strong shadows through June.  I went off of it in July...had two hits and that was it.   The year before that, the Verap didn't seem to help at all.  I'm afraid to count on the Verap again.  Could I get that lucky two years in a row??!!

Jeannie