I am starting this with a hit, so I’ll be back in 10-15 min (on the O2 @ 25 LPM) to elaborate.

The magic pill is a hoax you are playing into if you believe it??. When you have accepted the fact that you may be tied to a tank (and it is no fun) for several hours a day, and need your O2 supplier to get you the 3-5 M’s a week (failure is not an option) so you can be normal in some sorta way to your family and kids, YOU will have seen the light at the end of a endless tunnel.. The biggest thing for me was when I finally accepted the fact that it is what it is, and B’n about it just made life twice the struggle….so …I’ll just keep on keeping on with acceptance and harmony when it let’s me……

I really love my O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2 X O2

Rolo, while I appreciate you trying to help people by trying to get them to understand the benefits of oxygen, there ARE those for whom oxygen does not help, and there exists a magic pill. I'm living a normal life at the moment because of etoricoxib and oxygen didn't work for me. Neither has it worked for DJ.

For Guiseppi I understand that magic pill has been lithium.

This post doesn't mean that I think oxygen is not worth it - I think nearly anything to get the pain away and normalise the life is worth it - but I also think that taking one pill before night is easier than keeping an oxygen-tank with you. Also the oxygen rarely takes away the background headaches. My magic pill does that as well.

- Best regards and PFDAN,
Rosa

Munching on pickles, Roland?  Sure you're not pregnant??  ;D ;D ;D

I just had my date with O2 too!  Mere 5 min of low flow rate to kill the shadow that didn't even hurt [smiley=sayyes.gif].

Rosa, I'm counting on you to come up with a magic pill by the time you finish your med school.  Pharmaceutical grade LSD pills (no psychedelic side effects, only to prevent street-dealing!) would suit me fine :).

Quote:

Mere 5 min of low flow rate to kill the shadow that didn't even hurt

I think some of these high flow rates that are mentioned are a waste of O2.  Your lungs can only transfer so much oxygen to the blood cells and anything left over is exhaled.  All this huffing, puffing and wheezing just has you exhaling O2 before your lungs can use it.  What does it matter how fast or slowly your breath as long as you're keeping 100% O2 in your lungs.

I'm 6'4", 230 lbs. and 7 to 8 lpm works just fine for me.

Bob P wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 5:53am:

Quote: Mere 5 min of low flow rate to kill the shadow that didn't even hurt I think some of these high flow rates that are mentioned are a waste of O2.  Your lungs can only transfer so much oxygen to the blood cells and anything left over is exhaled.  All this huffing, puffing and wheezing just has you exhaling O2 before your lungs can use it.  What does it matter how fast or slowly your breath as long as you're keeping 100% O2 in your lungs. I'm 6'4", 230 lbs. and 7 to 8 lpm works just fine for me.

I'm not sure why it helps.  What you say here makes sense, on paper.  I would suffocate if i had 8 lpm.  

MrsT wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 4:49am:

Rosa, I'm counting on you to come up with a magic pill by the time you finish your med school.  Pharmaceutical grade LSD pills (no psychedelic side effects, only to prevent street-dealing!) would suit me fine :).

Haha  ;D I have to get into the university first, and that's easier said than done!

But I promise, pharmaceutical grade LSD will be the first thing on my mind after that  ;)

- Best regards and PFDAN,
Rosa

Quote:

I think some of these high flow rates that are mentioned are a waste of O2.  Your lungs can only transfer so much oxygen to the blood cells and anything left over is exhaled.  All this huffing, puffing and wheezing just has you exhaling O2 before your lungs can use it.

 
I sorta agree with you, Bob.  When I really hurt in high cycle, I need higher flow rates and take very deep and fast breaths to abort the pain quickly, probably breathing out lots of O2.  If O2 supply were unlimited and cheap (don't ask me why, but even welder's O2 ain't cheap in San Diego), it wouldn't matter much though....  In the middle of a bad attack, I can justify the waste :).  While in low cycle, just killing the shadow prevents attacks before they reach that threshold to hurt me bad in a hurry.


Quote:

I'm 6'4", 230 lbs. and 7 to 8 lpm works just fine for me.

I'm 5'2" and 105 lbs......so naturally I use much less O2 than you do.  And if the gender matters, I have less blood for my body weight than men to transport O2, utilizing less precious O2 probably.

And I've tried a good ole' 8L regulator.  I was afraid of collapsing the bag as I'm sure I breathe more than 8 LPM.  But I did okay as long as I don't try to breathe hard.  Wouldn't work well for mean attacks though.

Haha   I have to get into the university first, and that's easier said than done!

Rosa my money is on you!!!

I think some of these high flow rates that are mentioned are a waste of O2.  Your lungs can only transfer so much oxygen to the blood cells and anything left over is exhaled.  All this huffing, puffing and wheezing just has you exhaling O2 before your lungs can use it.  What does it matter how fast or slowly your breath as long as you're keeping 100% O2 in your lungs.

This is why I'm in love with my demand valve regulator. I'm a slow, deep breahter while getting hit. I exhale completely, inhale deeply, then hold it for 20-30 seconds, repeat! A high flow regulator would be spitting 02 into the atmosphere, wasting oodles of it. I use 2-300 pounds per attack out of an E-tank!

Guiseppi

MrsT wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 4:49am:

Munching on pickles, Roland?  Sure you're not pregnant??  ;D ;D ;D

I swear it helps for some reason. I know it sounds like a load of hooey! It has to be sweet pickles though, I eat them constantly MrsT.

If the O2 and lithium ever fail me, I will be on the wrong side of the bull pen gate getting mauled by a Brahma named Mr Twister! :D

As to the 02 flow rate,apparently there's a difference in vasoconstrictive response to 02 rates in individuals, an example being the difference between smokers and non-smokers.  Dr. Rozen reported in 2005 that 30% of people with CH fail to abort an attack when 02 is delivered between 7 - 10 lpm and that they should not see themselves as oxygen resistant until they've tried 15 lpm.

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my best,

Laurie

The "magic pill" is not O2 for me, but i am liking the idea of pickles.

Any particular brand of pickles work better than others? ...and any particular yoga position required when consuming them?

I really am counting on this one to work.

Think positive Paul think positive Paul think positive Paul

Paul

I have a really simple suggestion for people:

Use a mouthpiece in lieu of a face mask at least once as a test. Be sure that you are only inhaling through your mouth, then only exhale through your nose. See what flow rate you need to breath as fast as you want to. The whole point I'm getting at is that many people THINK they are getting 100% and they are not - there is leakage of room air with most (NOT ALL) masks.

I did this and found out that 15 LPM wasn't even close to enough. For years, I thought I was getting 100% O2 with my Clustermasx, but I wasn't. For all of those years, I could have been aborting faster.

I now have a mask that fits better and I need way more than 15 LPM just to breath normally - BECAUSE the leakage is gone. At 15 LPM, I now pull the 3 liter bag empty at 1/2 of an inhale, when I didn't before - with the same regulator.

Again, I'm not saying that everyone is like me. I am saying that I spent too many years thinking I was getting the best possible effect and I wasn't. Don't believe me? Spend the $1.00 for the mouthpiece and try it yourself.

In fact, I'm thinking about ordering 10 or more so I can mail them to people to try - just as a test of required flow rate. I'm also NOT saying that O2 works for everyone!

If it saves even one person, one minute of a real K10........

Marc

Guiseppi wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 11:05am:

I exhale completely, inhale deeply, then hold it for 20-30 seconds, repeat!

That really does make logical sense.  And the demand valve should pay for itself, especially with chronics or frequent episodics.

MrsT wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 7:16pm:

Guiseppi wrote on Dec 2nd, 2008 at 11:05am: I exhale completely, inhale deeply, then hold it for 20-30 seconds, repeat! That really does make logical sense.  And the demand valve should pay for itself, especially with chronics or frequent episodics.

There is no wasted O2 if you are breathing every ounce of what leaves the tank. With a proper mask, O2 goes nowhere but the bag, then into your lungs. Zero waste...... good to the last drop  ;)

I'm willing to admit that I'm a bit dense sometimes, so perhaps I'm missing soemthing?

Marc

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:D ;D 8-)

What she's saying is that with a demand valve, when you're not inhaling, no air is flowing. If you're a breathe deep and hold guy like me, for the 30 seconds you hold your breath, with a standard 15 LPM reg, air is blowing by you. With a demand valve, there's no waste. Depends on your breathing style during an attack.

Guiseppi

Guiseppi wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 7:32pm:

What she's saying is that with a demand valve, when you're not inhaling, no air is flowing. If you're a breathe deep and hold guy like me, for the 30 seconds you hold your breath, with a standard 15 LPM reg, air is blowing by you. With a demand valve, there's no waste. Depends on your breathing style during an attack. Guiseppi

Now I get it - the holding your breath part didn't sink in! You would need a 7.5 liter bag.  See, I said I was dense sometimes  ;D

From what I've read, CO2 builds up rapidly, reducing the O2 content available for your lungs, when you hold your breath. In particular, when considering the tidal volume vs. the total max lung capacity.

I take it that you find that this works better for you?

Thanks,

Marc

I've knocked out attacks in 6-8 minutes using a Clustermasx mouthpiece at a flow of 10-12lpm.  When I turned it higher, I found that I couldn't collapse the bag and O2 would leak out.  

:-?


eta: I don't think that a higher flow rate is necessary for some and vice versa.  It all depends on the breathing pattern and volume, right?

Melissa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 8:21pm:

I've knocked out attacks in 6-8 minutes using a Clustermasx mouthpiece at a flow of 10-12lpm.  When I turned it higher, I found that I couldn't collapse the bag and O2 would leak out.   :-? eta: I don't think that a higher flow rate is necessary for some and vice versa.  It all depends on the breathing pattern and volume, right?

Yup! If you used a mouthpiece, didn't inhale any air through your nose and couldn't outrun it, then it was too much.

I suppose I hammer on the point too much, but I discovered that that at 15 liters, I would empty the bag half way through an inhale and end up starving for air, without taking any deep breaths.

I was getting a lot of room air with my old setup(s) without even realizing it. As you pointed out, it all depends. I've become a huge fan the "breath deep, breath often" approach after NOT doing that for almost 12 years being chronic. It's not going to be the same for everyone.

I just don't want folks to suffer if they don't need to.

Marc

When I started the HF therapy, I could only take 12-15 and over time can now do 40 for 3-5 minutes. I can easily now take 25 constantly. I use the mouth tube and exhale with mouth and nose. I removed the exhale valve portion so the O2 has no restriction at all on inhale. It seems to work good for me but everyone has their own comfort zone. I have found that the less effort necessary to inhale, the more you get in. And for god sake don’t hold your breath! The key is to saturate yourself to the point that you tingle and are dizzy. 8-)

Ungweliante, I am sorry to hear that! I have times as well.. DHE...

It has been a really bad year for many of us and I hope it clears soon!

Rolo... :( Tell him to try the pickles? 8-)

wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 8:39pm:

The key is to saturate yourself to the point that you tingle and are dizzy. 8-)

We're still talking about oxygen, right? :D

All I know is that when my regulator only went to 8 lpm....relief took so danged long I don't know if it helped at all or if the hit was over.

Got a regulator that went to 15....abort in 15 to 20 mins.

Got a regulator last year that went to 25 (along with a demand valve from LINDE)   and I can abort a WHOLE LOT faster.  Hyperventilating does help also.  

wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 7:27pm:

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Just lookin at them and I am already feelin better.
Thanks for the smile Roland

The pain reflex is to hold your breath. You are scared and adrenalin is dumping (not good). You have to stay calm and breathe!!!! Don’t worry how bad it’s going to get. The more it hurts the more you need to fight the urge to hold your breath! Over time you will loose that urge to hold your breath and aborts will come faster and have less chance of relapse. Stay on it for several minutes after the pain goes away at a low setting 8-10 LPM. This really helps your chances of hit relapse.

;) ;) ;) :)

For me the trick is not to cut the rubber band from the mask. In fact, when the rubber band loses its elasticity, it's time to discard the mask and get a new one. How else could I get a tight fit with the beard? If the bag gets completely flat I feel I can no longer inhale and it's time to crank up the flow rate.

It takes several hours to empty the tank, much longer than I can sleep at one piece. Furthermore, if I fell asleep, I would fall from the chair within minutes.

(Those afraid of falling asleep should hold a brick between their knees, it will wake you up when it falls on your toes  :D)


                 [smiley=smokin.gif]

Melissa wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 8:21pm:

flow rate is necessary for some and vice versa.  It all depends on the breathing pattern and volume, right?

I think so too!  When in high cycle when CH activities are vicious, I need a high flow rate and fast hyperventilation (almost!!) for immediate relief.  Then I get re-attacked even after I kill a bad one completely, so I'd need to turn O2 down and continue breathing whereas not-so-bad ones in low cycle, especially at the earliest sign, are real easy to kill without a revenge re-attack.  To me fast ventilation is real WORK.  Although it really works well to abort a bad attack quickly, sometimes I find it too much when I'm half asleep, not to mention the waste of high flow rates without a demand valve.

Bottom line......we all have our own tricks to kill and avoid bad attacks.  Worth experimenting with pieces & parts, breathing techniques, flow rates, etc., to make O2 therapy most effective.

wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 8:42pm:

Ungweliante, I am sorry to hear that! I have times as well.. DHE... It has been a really bad year for many of us and I hope it clears soon! Rolo... :( Tell him to try the pickles? 8-)

Don't worry. Like I said, I'm living a normal life because of etoricoxib at the moment :)

I'm sorry you're not feeling great, though - hopefully things will get better soon.

Here's a [smiley=hug.gif] for speedier recovery!

- Rosa

I guess this is my question:

the normal tidal volume of humans is 1/2 liter.
normal resipation is 10-20 times per minute.

If we take the middle, 15 per min times the tidal volume, we get 7 1/2 lpm.  That's normal resting respiration.

Now - if we exercise, the muscles need more O2, the heart pumps faster, moving more blood through the lungs, and we breath quicker to get O2 to that increased volume of blood.
If we're at rest but breath quicker, do we raise the O2 level even though there isn't more blood moving through the lung or do we simply exhale most of that extra air without absorbing it?

If we are breating enough air to oxegenate the blood traveling through the lungs, can breathing faster, without increasing blood flow, force more O2 into the already oxegenated blood cells?

Bob,

I see clearly what you're saying. It’s pure guesswork on my part, but my assumptions would be:

Working with only the tidal volume leaves 90% of the ambient/CO2 laden air in the lungs. Deep breathing pure O2 brings up the overall concentration by swapping out the whole volume (well, almost). Rapid deep breathing further reduces the CO2 levels by flushing it out faster the the lungs can put it there.

Having this higher overall concentration of O2 in contact with all of the lungs surface area might increase the number of molecules exchanged to the blood stream - at a given blood flow rate – ending up with a higher blood saturation of O2.  

What I’m doing is trying to guess why it works for me, but it has really made a big difference in my abort times and peak pain levels – consistently.

So if all of my guesses are way off base, then it’s something else. I'm reasonably convinced that it’s not “all in my head” – or maybe it is actually.  ;)

Marc

All I know that is fast deep breaths and high flow O2 has made my abort times average 5 minutes...usually less. Wasting O2? Maybe, but it's worth it if I am.

If it gives you benefit, it's not a waste.

Just trying to understand the mechanics of it (kind of like contemplating one's own navel).

Oh please.....you haven't seen your navel in 10 years. :-*

OK, that's squared away for now.

Let's talk about apnea......... ;D

Bob P wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2008 at 5:18pm:

Just trying to understand the mechanics of it (kind of like contemplating one's own navel).

Yeah!!  We've gotta have some fun out of this!  I really enjoy this kinda discussion.

Where did the term "half-assed" originate from?

5 months, 12 days till I'm a voluntarily unemployed guy like you Jimi.

Then you have to come visit.

35 years practice, for oxygen all I do is put the tube in the cylinder, and breath 100% as fast as it comes out, hold breath maybe 15 seconds, then repeat step one. No waste, I figger the idea is to get as much oxygen into the bloodstream as possible, as fast as possible. If it doesn't work, maybe 1/3 of the time, time for a hot shower, which works maybe 90-95% of the time. O yeah, half assed is a vulgarization from the word adz. The adz was an axe like tool, used to rough finish finish wood. Ole days, if you had the time or inclination, or bucks, wood on a hearth or mantle or beam would be finished on all sides. If you wanted to lazy out, you would just finish off the facing portions of wood, thus the term half adz, or...... Oh well, just into another episode, almost two years from the last. They call this a young man's disease, at least that is some small comfort... cheers!

Maybe part of the reason I can abort quickly with a lower flow rate is due to years of breath coaching for choir (9 years) and to keep my panic/anxiety disorder under control. :-/  

I vary my flow rates. I have a clustermasx and when I get the nighttime visits it is already involved, my flow rate starting out is 25lpm+, as relief comes my demand goes down dramatically. I finish the therapy at 15lpm and lower. I can sometimes get to the 02 quickly and get relief at 10lpm. I am tighter than a bulls ass in fly season so I try to hoard my 02 same as trex.
Whatever works for you is a good thing.
all the best
the bb

wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2008 at 8:26pm:

my flow rate starting out is 25lpm+, as relief comes my demand goes down dramatically. I finish the therapy at 15lpm and lower.

Exactly bb, I love these O2 threads so much! I have learned tips I was unaware of and to the people that stop by and read this stuff (you know the ones that we never know of).

The people who come here and say I was here looking around 2 years ago and saw some interesting O2 info and went to the doc with the info here in hand.

Rolo. [smiley=thumb.gif]

Melissa wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2008 at 8:11pm:

Maybe part of the reason I can abort quickly with a lower flow rate is due to years of breath coaching for choir (9 years) and to keep my panic/anxiety disorder under control. :-/

Yo Mel,

I couldn't sing if you spotted me the do...re...me...and certainly never have had singing lessons...but, I too abort at much lower levels than most, and I'm convinced it is the DEEP, slow breathing that CALMS me down and takes me to a "different" place, where the beast is unwelcome...

Best,

Jon

From Wiki:


Quote:

In medicine, hyperventilation (or overbreathing) is the state of breathing faster and/or deeper than necessary, bringing about lightheadedness and other undesirable symptoms often associated with panic attacks. Counterintuitively, such side effects are not precipitated by the suffer's lack of oxygen or air, but rather, the hyperventilation itself reduces the carbon dioxide concentration of the blood to below its normal level, raising the blood's pH value, initiating constriction of the blood vessels which supply the brain, and preventing the transport of certain electrolytes necessary for the function of the nervous system.[1]

I'm still not sure how you get more O2 into the blood by breathing faster and not increasing the blood flow through the lungs at the same time.  Mayby you fast breathers are not raising O2 but decreasing CO2.