i was hanging out with my 16 y.o. nephews christmas eve and i was trying to get a feel for what kind of stuff they were interested in and what kind of tools they needed. since their father is a sleeper chasing alcoholic, they look to me to for mechanical advice. anyways i asked them what kind of machinery they got to learn on in school and they told me there was no shop class anymore.  no lathes, drill presses, or planers.   no welders, torches, engine lathes, milling machines. no vo-ag programs. no auto shop. non of that stuff. the only thing they had to offer is drafting.
10 years ago all that stuff was there. is this a sign of the times? i'm not saying that after high school we should all be all be welders, mechanics, carpenters, or machinists but don't you some of that stuff would be useful later in life? hell every time i'm home i use the welder for something.
i think i'm turning into my dad. what in the world are they teaching kids these days?.....seriously

I hate to say it Jonny, but the liberal slide in the school system has deemed teaching a trade to the hungry mind a non-necessity these days. They find it more prudent to spend twice the dollar per immigrant student necessary just to teach them in their native tounge because they won’t learn English, and the liberals just can’t stand for conformity IMHO…

If they only knew or realized how they are imprisoning them for life by not forcing them to learn in English. My Great-Grandfather got of the boat from Germany, and the first thing he did was to learn English. He forebode anyone in the family to speak German on the streets and they only spoke German in the house. If our country didn’t pander to the weak philosophy of acceptance, the immigrant today would not be downtrodden for generations to come. BTW, if my 8 yr old son can learn spanish, then why can't the immigrants learn ENGLISH!?!

Rolo...>:(

Hell, it is not only those GREAT "shop" classes that are missing, but some of what I call "basics" are also missing!

Back when I went to school (YES, they did have schools back then) (even if it WAS in a cave, and we drew our lessons on the cave's walls with a stick from the fire) it was a required subject to take: Latin.  And that was in Junior High School (7, 8 and 9th grades).  Then, in High School you took your foreign language.  (I took German, but remember next to none of it.)

When my four children went to school, they didn't even OFFER Latin in ANY year!  WTF?  Latin is a basis for most modern languages!  I can remember my kids being surprised when they asked what a word meant, and I would say .. "It is from the Latin --(fill in the blank)-- meaning --(again, fill in the blank)-- so that would mean that this word has something to do with -- (another blank to fill in) --.  Now go look it up, and see what the full meaning is."

And people wonder why the Americans (I don't want to include the Canadians, Mexicans, Central or South Americans in this statement) people from the United States are at the bottom of the learning curve, world wide?

Disgusted Chuck
(Climbing down off my soap box)

Remember Chuck, You couldn’t remember Caveat emptor…
The Nuns in my grade school would whack ya for that. [smiley=crackup.gif]

LY Chuck. :-*

Rolo. ;)

Add; this subject just makes me Nuck'n Futts.. Off my soap box now also.

i remember when dad drove a truck he would drive across west texas, the deserts of arizona and new mexico, all the way to la and back to eastern virginia with a toolbox, a few spare parts and some mechanical and electrical skills. he didn't have a cell phone or a gps. in some cases he didn't have power steering or air conditioning. it seems like we've gotten sissified as a culture. nobody wants to get their hands dirty nor do they want to use any kind of thought or creativity.  

Bravo, [Jonny]

HeHe...Rolo. 8-)

-johnny- wrote on Dec 27^th, 2008 at 12:11am:

. 10 years ago all that stuff was there. is this a sign of the times? i'm not saying that after high school we should all be all be welders, mechanics, carpenters, or machinists but don't you some of that stuff would be useful later in life? hell every time i'm home i use the welder for something. i think i'm turning into my dad. what in the world are they teaching kids these days?.....seriously

It does suck..  and it sure has changed.   The No Child Left Behind Legislation has hampered creativity in the schools.  Schools are required to teach only the essential curriculum and many school systems cut out extras like music, the arts etc to spend more time on core subjects like math , reading etc.  

 For example, in north carolina,  cursive writing is not considered essential.  They 'sort of ' teach it in third grade but it isn't required.  So if you ask some high school teachers in my area they will tell you that many of their students don't really have a 'signature' :-/

School just doesn't seem fun anymore and I worry about some kids who could be very successful if they were given more opportunites to pursue hobbies which could eventually become a career.  I think the growing drop out rate and hopefully the creation of more educational opportunites for diverse learners will be an interesting trend to watch

Its sad, but I send my kids to a private school just so that they can   have fun at school and be kids and of course learn at the same time.  Won't be able to afford college but...... ;)

kelly

Kelly, My 19 yr old that has not graduated yet can not write cursive ether. Maybe she will graduate some day ::)

She can't even keep up on the computer home school program. My adopted step daughter, coddled by mama! :-X

Maybe by 2010??? :(

Rolo. >:(

Rolo, be happy your son can take Spanish.... it is one of the most used languages in the world.... and if the immigrants (legal / illegal) have no interest / esparation to learn the language of the hosting country, oh well what can you do(?)..... only get angry..... and frustrated...
In most of the German spiking countries in Europe, we face some what the same problem, even though the School systems are deferent, the diminishing qualitative /  quantitative of fields, are the same as  in the USA (the kids do study new field and modern skills, but miss on basic skills), the (questionable) wish to try and satisfy the needs of every kid is not possible, so long as the parents do not step in and take some responsibility, and the system supports it (political level) kids of (most) immigrants from the Balkan, have problems in schools due to lake of proper support from home, due to lingual differences..... the (one can say) refusal to try and assimilate in the hosting country, and the disinterest of spiking the hosting country language, hinder the kids ability to advance properly in the schools and martial that should be covered / year and hinder with this fact the proper advance of my kids,  and that is what disturbs me...... the political level try’s to be “nice” to all and try’s to be social and understanding, and at the same time reduces it own “citizen kids” the right for better education, I think its called integration.... I call it failieur......  and the price will be paid somewhere along the way.....  but for the USA friends, you need to get used to the new horizons’ and the spirit of change in you home land.... to a very social / liberal time.... so most likely change will come..... just wonder what route it will take.......
Michael

Michael, you sir are wise beyond your years, and far more eloquent than me! My entire point was meant to revolve around the fact that the parents are culpable in the problem because they don't encourage their children to learn English. I believe they do this to prevent their children from finding the other side of the river so to say. They want their children to stay around to take care of them in their elder years, and in so doing discourage them from broader learning.

We have to send our children to Spanish immersion school just to ensure they get the best we can do for them. The regular schools are a joke here. They teach half the classes in Eng and half in SPA. The school is 25% better than the standard elementary school in my city.

I figure if my kids can learn Spanish than the Latino children should put forward the same effort. It is obvious that their parents are falling way too short in this effort that my taxes are being bumped constantly to achieve.

Best,

Roland ;)

-johnny- wrote on Dec 27^th, 2008 at 12:11am:

...no lathes, drill presses, or planers.   no welders, torches, engine lathes, milling machines. no vo-ag programs. no auto shop. non of that stuff...

Insurance and litigation.

They still have all of those wonderful machines but they (in most cases) couldn't find it in the budget to update them in every school as they went down. In most districts there is a vocational school that has the shop classes, including welding. In our area it is Edison H.S.. I'm not sure how the transpo to and from works, but you can elect these classes from another school within the area. I believe it was a part of the no child left behind. As well as making it possible for coaches to recruit players from other schools, it also made it possible to consolidate the shop classes to certain schools.
I'd like to say I'm a product of shop classes. I don't think anyone should be left to go through life without understanding the basic functions and parts of a motor, and how to maintain something you'll be resposible for for the rest of your life. Shop classes I also feel as a must but disagree with the format of classes. I think all kids should learn how a house is framed and the required specs therin since they will more than likely be living in a house that will require work pretty much the rest of their lives. Instead they turn bowls, make picture frames and router family shields. All good.
THEY TRADED IN MY LATHE FOR A COMPUTER???????????

They still have that out here, both in the town I grew up in (Stevens Point) and where the kids now go to school out in the country (Wittenberg).

I think it's necessary here due to the economy of WI. :-/

They tore the whole shop class wing down at my HS 7 years ago.

A big part of the industrial arts problem comes by the way of litigious parents and unsupervised students getting hurt. The school system probably pays outrageous insurance premiums for these classes, and the punk ass kids nowadays think it’s funny to screw around with power tools that can disfigure them for life.

Rolo. ::)

Here in Canada there is still an active "shop" program in the public high school system. Not every school has one, but at least one school in every area has one, so that students with an interest in industrial arts can go to that school and get that training.

The high school my son attended had a full wood shop which taught complete house construction and cabinet making as well as a complete metal fabrication shop and an auto shop. The auto shop received cars and diagnostic equipment and tools donated from the Honda auto factory down the road to train the youth.

My son ended up working in an automotive repair shop all thru his high school years and being a hands on kid he built a wood racing boat in our back yard from plans off the internet(and his wood shop skills).

He went on to college and graduated as a CNC prgramming technician and has a great highly-paid skilled carreer programming the computers to do what tool and die makers used to do by hand in the old days....fascinating multi axis proto-typing stuff....and he still works on weekends in the winter months at the automotive shop where he has worked since high school.

I hope they never scap this type of education here. It is the backbone of our technological advantage over other industrialized countries.

Our local school system got around offering shop or any technical education by allowing Juniors and Seniors to work afternoons in a chosen trade.  They go to the company after lunch and get credit for their work hours.

I saw a great news report a few weeks ago about a local company (with global customers) who set up an entire curriculum in a Milwaukee Public School to produce the kind of engineers they need.  P&H Harnishfeger makes industrial mining equipment (among other things) and they found they couldn't get the type of workers they need in our area - the average age of their machinists is 48.  The curricula include engineering and machinist type disciplines.  At least they are pro-active about making sure they have future employees.

And Chuck - LATIN!!!!  Yes, Latin!  Schools don't offer it anymore because they don't teach it in the colleges of education that produce teachers.

I remember preparing my young son for the spelling bee by giving him words I KNEW he didn't know and making him figure out the root, prefix, and suffix . . . that just doesn't happen in the schools anymore.

I spent 9th through 12th grade in a tech school. Being that im no smarter than the average rock, it allowed me to do what my family for generations have been doing.....Metal work!

Now I own my own company! :)

If high school is your last step on the education ladder....you really need to know how to do something more than whine......LMAO!  ;D

Back in the old days....even before Chuck and stone axes; I took Latin, wood and what was called "metal shop." The latter was a ridiculous name but we learned a lot from some pretty goofy teachers that at least put up with us.

I was spoiled though because we had our own machine shop and rebuilt, engines and more. My seizures got in the way of doing heavy stuff but I had to keep stuff running around here or all my Swede relatives would have drummed me out of the family. Even my mother was a good mechanic. Depression era people fixed stuff.

I'm not sure if shop classes are taught here today but the thing is that it's fun.

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wrote on Dec 27^th, 2008 at 4:30pm:

If high school is your last step on the education ladder....you really need to know how to do something more than whine......LMAO!  ;D

and thats another thing. i can't get my 16 y.o stepdaughter to do shit around the house. but she loves to bitch and whine about how shitty the house looks. well if it does get off your ass and do something about it! its like pulling teeth.

at 16 years of age any thing that broke around the house was my responsibility. i remember pulling the well pump out of the front yard, replacing the capacitors, blatter tank, pressure switch and a few pipes. mom had the money to pay somebody but i wouldn't let her call anybody. grant it allot of stuff i did was experimental however alot of stuff i fixed 15 or 20 years ago still works today.

i went to trade school to be a machinist. when i got out of school i worked at a machine shop reconditioning engine parts. i worked there for 2 years until the old man that owned the place died. by that time most of your machine shops had shut down. most of the stuff we consume nowadays is disposable and not rebuildable so what the hell do you need a machinist for.

as far as being dumb as a rock goes think of how many guys claim to be a welders.and don't know shit. welding is pretty easy right? when i worked at scarefactory i'd see guys using corner clamps on a deadballs flat table and still not be able to keep a square frame true. "don't tack it just pour in the wire". "see i'm a good welder" "fillet weld is when you got a whole and you gotta fillet in" :D anybody can point the trigger and lay a bead but that still doesn't make you a welder. right jonny?

i dunno know man. if this country is going to grow back its balls we need shop class. we need to build stuff. if your squeamish about letting your precious son or daughter be around power tools then don't sign them up for it. sign a disclaimer.  


 

-johnny- wrote on Dec 27^th, 2008 at 6:42pm:

wrote on Dec 27th, 2008 at 4:30pm: If high school is your last step on the education ladder....you really need to know how to do something more than whine......LMAO!  ;D i dunno know man. if this country is going to grow back its balls we need shop class. we need to build stuff. if your squeamish about letting your precious son or daughter be around power tools then don't sign them up for it. sign a disclaimer. Well said my brother!!!! [smiley=headbanger.gif]

It must be where you live.

My daughters school still has the required 1/2 semester of wood and metal shop in 7th and 8th grade like when I went. They still have classes for both shops in high school.

BOCES still has welding, auto tech, auto collision, and conservation.  All the classes have girls in them and auto collision has more girls than boys. I was surprised that conservation students still use chain saws in this day and age.

The missing classes I see are metal machining and drafting. Looking at the horrible mess of modern blue prints ( at least on the jobs I have been on ) drafting should be in high school. Of course if the architects and engineers used uncommon sense things would be much better too.

Paul

I think you're right Paul.

Punching out a High School up the road from me and it has a separate building on the campus dedicated to automotive repair, machinist work and a millwright shop. Have another coming out of the ground with the same set up.

Oil industry requires new skilled labor and I have yet to hear a machine out weld a Coonass pipeline welder. Just not possible.

I started by drafting in shop using simple orthographic projection and ended up working in the design/build industry. Ask a kid today to figure the true size and shape of a plane not perpendicular to any of the primary views using simple descriptive geometry and they will just stare at you like you're crazy. Still draw house plans on the side by hand. Most clients love it.

If I possessed the knowledge my Grandfather had, I would not worry at all. He could do anything.

Steve G

wrote on Dec 27^th, 2008 at 4:30pm:

If high school is your last step on the education ladder....you really need to know how to do something more than whine.

Ding Ding - we have a winner in the Quote of the Day contest!!

Jonny - I've seen your work.  
You are as much artist as metal fabricator.
I'm glad tech school was available to you so that your family's legacy can continue.  We are all richer for it.

There are kids doing some REALLY cool sh&t with this program:

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I've been to a few of these events and have a nephew who participated in this for two years before he graduated. These kids are the coolest nerds you'll ever want to meet. If you ever wanted to mentor kids and have a technological or machine shop background, get involved with a local program - they're all over the US (and the world).


Scott

I took wood shop and metal shop, and my school had an ag farm, too.

I learned to acetylene and arc weld, fabricate, and run a manual lathe. It would be nice to see CNC courses being offered, too.

In wood shop, I learned to run a lathe, planer, table saw, and radial saw.

Granted, when the instructor wasn't looking, I made a killer weed pipe, but that's beside the point!)

"Buyer Beware" (I think that's the answer Rolo) ;)  And I STILL think Latin SHOULD be taught as a CORE course (the colleges should be cranking OUT teachers for it!) It teaches more English than most kids get from any English class. Hell, I can still congregate verbs with the best of them.

And shop or metal shop or whatever (Voc) should be available as well as Homemaking. Good grief, I talked to a homemaking teacher a few months ago and she said she spent SIX weeks teaching kids to SEW a PILLOW! SIX WEEKS? That's totally ridiculous! They should be able to make a garmet in that length of time. How hard is it to sew four seams on a pillow?

My husband worked in a welding shop all thru high school and worked his way thru college WELDING while he was getting an engineering degree. When he got out in the REAL WORLD, he KNEW when a WELD wasn't right! And yes, Steve, he could do it RIGHT and had to several times. He bitched loudly about some "so-called" welders on some of his jobs! He also threatened to "kill" some of the newly educated engineers on some of his jobs. They'd never learned any "practical" stuff while being "educated".

Our schools are NOT teaching our kids what they need for the REAL WORLD. My son didn't get the education I did (nor what Chuck, Jonny or most of us "older" folks here got). We've got so PC in our schools that education has taken a back-seat and our kids are suffering. Computers have taken the place of the basics (and no, I'm not advocating taking computers out of schools - just teaching the 'basics' before turning kids loose on them). Cursive writing is NOT dead - it just needs to be taught (never know when you MIGHT just need it).

Manners are another thing that have gone to pot with kids -- that's where parents are slipping up big time. Schools are not resposible for that - parents are. If I'd ever said, "yeah" to my parents are a teacher, I probably wouldn't be sitting down today, but kids don't even know how to say, "yes mam or yes sir" today. (most kids). That's the parents place to see to that - not the schools. Teachers should reinforce it, but it needs to start at home!

And we damn sure didn't need a dozen aides in a classroom - one teacher was plenty. We KNEW to behave and do our work! If we didn't we didn't want was going to befall us at home when we got there! Today, teachers and parents "E-MAIL" each other - there's not that much actual communication between them. What ever happened to PARENT-TEACHER conferences - one on one?

I keep harping and my kids just look at me and say, "But what can I do?" You can get your shiney ass to that school and see what the hell is going on!!! Your child is getting D's in conduct - do you not wonder WHY? He's making A's in everything else - do you NOT see a problem?

Ok, I'm on a soapbox! I still say it has to start with a parent's uprising. Until the parents take the upper hand and DO SOMETHING to change things NOTHING will get done to change our education system. WHAT? Go to school board meetings (first find out what's going on in the schools) - go to the state education board (the guys who make the rules). It's all about money. Go to Congress... If we don't do something - nothing will ever get done. The OLD days are gone, but there were some GOOD things about them that NEED to be revised if we want to compete in the REAL WORLD. Our kids are worth it.

Off soap box....

Hugs BD

BarbaraD wrote on Dec 29^th, 2008 at 7:32am:

Hell, I can still congregate verbs with the best of them. Hugs BD

Now, Barb, I don't know about congregating with verbs.  I'd much rather congregate with adjectives and adverbs, much more colorful characters.

Now, conjugating verbs?  I can do that all day long  ;) (just not in Latin).

Well, you didn't have Miss Ayecock... or you darn sure could! :)

Luckily, I sat next to our congressman's son who could slip me the answers by the time I got over my "coughing spell" (had a lot of coughing spells during my two years of Latin ;) ). But it finally got thru my head (and lungs) it was "easier" to just learn it.

But the funny thing about Latin - I learned English while I was butchering Latin. Had to cause you had to know a noun from a verb and all the parts in between cause there was a certain order they had to be placed in a sentence. Bet they don't diagram sentences anymore either..... I really hated that, but I did know the parts of a "proper" sentence....

Hugs BD

Barb, I remember having to diagram sentences. I also remember getting an abacus in second grade...I think. I didn't understand it at first. I had to get past how cool it looked and the neat sound it made when you slapped the slider things. I'm finally beginning to understand it and I no longer have to use my fingers and toes. Ciphering at its finest yes indeed.

Steve G

When I was going thru Bill's stuff I found his SLIDE RULE.... Bet kids haven't seen one of those in a while. :) At one time in my life I even knew how to use one of the darn things. Of course that was back in the stone age before calculators... (and electricity!)

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's amazing how much we "learned" without the aid of all the modern things that kids have today. We were ready for them when they came along and have utilized them well, but have something to fall back on if they fail.

My 13 year old nephew came in last night and we were talking about what he was learning in school. He's a very bright kid. He popped out with they don't learn cursive writing. I asked him "What happens if you need to sign your name some day?" He assured me that his mom and dad had taught him cursive so that wouldn't be a problem. But what about the "others" who's parents "don't" teach them - do they just sign with an X? I just can't imagine a society where kids graduating from high school can't "sign" their names.

Go back to your abacus Steve... it keeps you off the streets.. :) :-*


Hugs BD

Never heard the term "cursive writing." Are you talking about what.....back in my day, was called: "Longhand?" Must be some kind of regional thing if so.

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Charlie wrote on Dec 30^th, 2008 at 3:19pm:

Never heard the term "cursive writing." Are you talking about what.....back in my day, was called: "Longhand?" Must be some kind of regional thing if so. Charlie START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGESTART PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Yes Charlie, longhand=cursive. ;D

How about the fact that Seniors in high school haven't got the foggiest notion of how to balance a check-book..or spell.  I was in a Starbucks the other day and the man in front of me asked the young girl at the register how much it would cost for 4 shots of espresso.  She said .65 per shot.  He asked how much that was for all four...she said she couldn't add that up in her head.  
All one has to do is watch a Jay Leno show where he is out on the street asking young people really simple questions..like who was president during the civil war and they come up with Bill Clinton.

Our school system is turning out men and women who will have a very hard time making it in this world.  

oh my GAWD don't get me started on this topic!!!!!!!  :D :D :D

first of all, I'm only 32, but I went to Catholic school and dammit, we learned a few things.  

I can't believe how much has changed since even I was a kid.

Down here in my area, at least, you can still do shop classes at most schools...depends on the campus.  Some campuses  even still have hairdressing classes, which gets you the credit hours to take the state board exam and get licensed; a damn good trade to have under your belt.

I actually took old-fashioned hand drafting in college in the theatre program!  It was part of Stagecraft, which is basically metal work + woodshop + electrical + drafting all in one.  Best class I've ever taken.
Now I'm getting my degree in Commercial Design (graphic design artist) and these kids in my classes are a mess...they look at me crazy when I pull out my t-square and my triangles and the rest of my "kit", and they can't understand why they don't get A's on everything like I do!!  ;D ;D

oh, and ANOTHER thing....hehe...

both of my sisters are public school teachers, and it is SICK how their hands are tied.  I'm serious, lawyers are actually going door to door in poor neighborhoods, talking to parents and LOOKING for something to sue the teachers for. WTF?!?

Teachers can't do ANYTHING anymore as far as discipline and manners.  Here's an example- my sister was supposed to send home a weekly progress report on each student.  Well, this one little hellion was always a real problem, and every note said something about how he didn't have his homework to turn in, or he got into a fight today on the playground, etc...
So one day, my sister gets served a notice that the parents are SUING her for RUINING THEIR KID'S SELF-ESTEEM with negative notes!!!  Can you believe this?!?  She battled that shite for two years.  It nearly killed her.  Anyway, that's what teachers are up against...you can't say "boo" to a kid or you'll lose everything. >:(

Current burnout rates for new teachers is 3-5 years. It's no wonder. They get shit on by the parents, shit on by the kids, shit on by the school administration, shit on by the school board, and shit on by the PTA. A person can only flail their way through so much shit before they finally say, "ENOUGH!!!"

Frank_W wrote on Dec 30^th, 2008 at 9:28pm:

Current burnout rates for new teachers is 3-5 years. It's no wonder. They get shit on by the parents, shit on by the kids, shit on by the school administration, shit on by the school board, and shit on by the PTA. A person can only flail their way through so much shit before they finally say, "ENOUGH!!!"

Excellent post, Frank!  [smiley=headbanger.gif]

I'm tired of seeing billboards here from law firms telling me  how to sue everybody under the sun if I stub my toe. Lawyers have no business in school rooms. Going door to door here wouldn't be all that healthy for them.

Kids need some fear brought back to school. No chld left behind. Bullpucky. You screw up; you repeat your class, not lower expectations.

Charlie

The bad part is the kids are the ones coming out on the low end of all this. They aren't learning anything. We're turning out a bunch of morons who won't be able to compete in the real world. And parents are sitting back (not all, but enough) and letting it happen.

Maybe I'm just a bitch, but when my kid was in school, I was at the school board meetings, I was involved in the PTA and everything else that went on at the school. When he went to college, I knew everything that went on there also (ok so I knew most of the teachers on a social level and they kept me up on what he did, but still...). But parents today just sent the kids off to school and forget about it...

Had a representative ask a question one time that stuck in my head -- "When was the last time you attended a school board meeting?" I pipped up and said "Not since my kid got out of school!" He looked me straight in the eye and said, "You still pay school taxes don't you?" Wow - never thought of that. I SHOULD still have a say - right? When you think about it maybe some of us OLDER folks with opinions should start going "back" to the school board meetings and letting them know what they NEED to be doing - it is OUR tax money at work after all. And these little minds that are coming out of these schools are going to be making laws that are going to be controlling our medicare payments..... hummmmmmm..... somethin' to think about...

Hugs BD

BarbaraD wrote on Jan 1^st, 2009 at 7:32am:

Maybe I'm just a bitch,

Ummmmm ... Errrrr .... Nevermind ....

:-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X

(Remember what your Mama said: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all ...")

Chuck

I don't know where to start!No child Left Behind maybe?? That is part of why our schools started falling apart. Our classes are a mixture of everything and we are expected to teach it all. The reason there are so many aides in the room is to try to help the teacher. I student taught in a straight special ed school and we didn't have all those aides. We had a max of 10 kids in a room and teachers trained to deal with special ed. Now so that we don't leave anyone behind we have included all and many require an aide (one on one) to help. In my opinion, we are leaving them behind now. We did so much more in the school I student taught in. I am currently teaching a 10 year old boy who fell into an unattended pool at 3 yrs old. He was in a coma for 2 yrs and coded 3 times. His parents wouldn't let him go. At 5 he woke up. He is truly another Terry Shivo. He can do nothing for himself, needs constant medical care, a blind specialist, more nursing care than 20 students, has feeding tubes and diapers and the list goes on. Mom has insisted he be in a reg. classroom. His IEP says nothing more than socialization. His response is random and he can barely lift his hand from his wheel chair. Our music teacher was scolded by this mom because she didn't include him in her holiday program. She thought he should play the bells. This teacher was voted as a Maryland Music Educator of the Year. She is a great teacher. Under the Radar said it perfectly as Frank and Barbara also did. We need to return to a sane classroom. My student would have been in a severe and profound class 10 years ago with 3 or 4 other kids and a school full of  specialists and trained nurses. Was this leaving a child behind?? I dont think so! I watched my students thrive in the late 70's early 80's. We are dragging so many kids behind now. The amount of funds that goes into educating kids in this way is part of why some schools can't afford to maintain the programs that help develop kids into independent adults.

Charlotte

PS. I am not totally against inclusion. For some higher function students, it has been wonderful, especially in my art class. I'm tired of this all or none attitude.

Oh gawd, Charlotte, that happened to my sister, too!  She was teaching 3rd grade regular class, and there was a mother who INSISTED that her severely disabled daughter be integrated...the girl was not much better off than that boy, and she was 17!  The mother REFUSED to believe that her daughter even HAD a problem!!  So my sister had to try to teach 30 students AND care for an invalid.  (oh, yeah, the mom wouldn't LET her daughter wear diapers.)   :o

the school principal would not stick up for my sister, either...it got so bad that she even climbed out the window once to avoid the mother!!! :D

I think the problem with this mother was the guilt she must have felt for leaving the pool gate open. This child was born with no disabilities. So many schools are coping with this and the principals are scared to do anything for fear of being fined for not following the guide lines. I have a feeling I could have a very LLLOOONNNGGG talk with your sister.  

Charlotte