A very sad and unfortunate situation is developing in the Middle East
The escalating situation, the loss of lives, and suffering on both ends are regrettable...

The Israeli retaliation to a deadly barrage of rockets to the southern parts of Israel, is not just a justice, it is
the obligation of a country; state, to defend its citizens!

The Hamas (the militant / terrorist organisation) in the Gaza Strip provoked Israel, after a 6 month of (relative) quiet cessation of violence, the terrorist organization Hamas has launched a massive rocket attack on the civilians in the (southern) cities and villages in Israel.

The Israeli military (IDF, Israeli Defence Forces) has launched a massive attack on the sources of the distraction, terror, deep hate- rage and fundamentalism, in the hope that the massive operation will stop the launch of rocket barrages into Israel, a thing that I doubt will happen.....

It is very regrettable, the loss of human lives in the Palestinian (Gaza Strip) area, but it is the responsibility of the ruling party (Hamas) in the Gaza strip to prevent the militants from staging a grinding war, a war of terror at the cities and villages in the Southern part of Israel, bordering with the Gaza strip....

I do hope that both parties (Israel and Hamas) will understand that violence is not the right way; it is not a solution, both parties should cease fire, and stop the evil and devilish cycle of pain and suffering,

But I don’t believe the circle of violence will stop, as long as radical fundamentalist groups of militants are free to stage a terror war on Israel, with support from fundamental countries and regimes.

Israel is the only democratic nation in that area,  with western roots, a country / state fighting for its right for peaceful and prospers existents..... between a (mostly) dictatorships and radical and fundamental countries with one desire..... to spared terror and to destroy Israel!

I am sad and worried, I am outraged, some of my close family members are living in Israel....

Michael

It is very sad to know of what is going on there Michael.  

I do think that both sides are to blame though and the only way peace will come will either be when they destroy each other, or one side gives up.

JMO :-/

I don't know Mel.  Virtually all reports say Israel never fires first, they always return fire when fired upon.

I really don't know if that is true, but if it is, I certainly hope they continue to do so and do not give up.  

I see firing first as a crime.  Firing second is a moral obligation.  Israel has given up land in order to stop the violence, but that didn't work.  

Of course a country has every right to protect it's citizens.

I just don't know though, if there will ever be peace there in my, or my children's, lifetime. :(  I read the history of the area and it is horrendous how the governments, including the west, have manipulated and used the people there.  It's a huge mess and a very old battle.  What else can be done?

Sad indeed. It seems as though they are destined to fight through this millenia as they have in the past. How do you stop people from killing each other when that is all they know?
sad
the bb

I hear that BB.  After 50 years of fighting over land, the 1 side said they would stop attacking if they got the land back.  They got it back and are still attacking.  

It isnt about the land anymore.  It's about fighting.

and it is about religion...

Oliver

wildhaus wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 1:42pm:

I am sad and worried, I am outraged, some of my close family members are living in Israel.... Michael

I hope your family remains safe & free from harm Michael.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Arab-Israeli Wars & Conflicts
[1948-Present]

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Israel set for Gaza invasion after rocket barrage
By MARK LAVIE - 2 days ago

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At least 228 die as Israel hammers Hamas-run Gaza
1 day ago

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Israel tanks mass near Gaza as jets again pound Hamas
18 hours ago

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:(

This is a sad situation.  There will never be peace in the Middle East.  Whenever peace looks possible, the fanatics know exactly how to ensure that bloodshed and hostilities continue.  I don't know why anybody thinks this has a solution.  The Israelis would love to live in peace, but their 'occupation' of the area is something that cannot be peacefully resolved.  They pulled out of Gaza thinking it would bring some peace... instead it only gave Hamas another victory and encouragement for more terrorist acts.

The 300 rocket attacks launched by Hamas produced 1 Israeli death.  The Israeli IDF attacks have killed at least 245 and wounded over 400.  The Israelis have already dropped over 100 tons of bombs on Hamas targets.  That is the way this works... Hamas provokes until Israel retaliates.  Then Hamas uses the retaliation as proof that Israel is heavy-handed.  Magic, war continues.

Sad indeed.

  Didn't the Jews just take the piece of Palestine that they wanted for a Jewish state?

                        Potter

I read that Iran is tickled pink at this......nothing new there but it ain't looking good for 2009.

I'll take Israel as an ally.

Charlie

Potter wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 3:14pm:

Didn't the Jews just take the piece of Palestine that they wanted for a Jewish state?                         Potter

Potter, could you elaborate......  or is it a simple statement, to stir the pot?

Michael

I support Israel all the way.

Pascal.

wildhaus wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 3:59pm:

Potter wrote on Dec 28th, 2008 at 3:14pm:   Didn't the Jews just take the piece of Palestine that they wanted for a Jewish state?                         Potter Potter, could you elaborate......  or is it a simple statement, to stir the pot? Michael

     It was phrased as a question for a reason. That's why there is a question mark at the end of the sentence.  Maybe you should read a little closer before accusing me of trying to stir the pot.

                Potter

Potter wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 3:14pm:

Didn't the Jews just take the piece of Palestine that they wanted for a Jewish state?                         Potter

Dear Potter and the rest of Clusterville:

That is NOT the way that it happened.  It all depends upon where you start looking.  The British controlled Palestine after Napolean.  There was an infamous "white paper" outlining a plan to return some of the land to be a Jewish homeland.  During the period between the world wars, there was a movement by Jews to buy up land in Palestine, which was considered worthless by the land owners.  The British made it impossible for Jews to move to the Holy Land during WWII.

In 1948, the narrow state of Israel was formed and was immediately attacked on all sides as the British turned over all arms to the
Arabs.

During the '67 war, Israel did sieze land that belonged to it's neighbors as a "security zone".  According to International Law, this is legal, as long as the country was attacked and defending its borders.  

It is horrible that this strip of land is fought over (and over).  Israel has a right to exist and to defend its borders.  One of the signs that Armageddon is coming is when all of Israel's friends turn their backs on them.  Although the USA preaches that they support Israel, many of their concessions are forced by financial means (loan guarantees, etc.)

I could go on and on, HOWEVER, it would be better that you look up the REAL history yourself.   ::)

Ray

Ray wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 4:28pm:

Israel has a right to exist and to defend its borders.

Thats the way I see it. You hit me with a fly swatter, I hit you with a fucking sledge hammer!

wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 4:42pm:

Thats the way I see it. You hit me with a fly swatter, I hit you with a fucking sledge hammer!

Thats the way I see it.  You spit in my eye and I will chop your head off and hang it from your front door for your family to see.

Ray wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 4:28pm:

Potter wrote on Dec 28th, 2008 at 3:14pm:   Didn't the Jews just take the piece of Palestine that they wanted for a Jewish state?                         Potter Dear Potter and the rest of Clusterville: That is NOT the way that it happened.  It all depends upon where you start looking.  The British controlled Palestine after Napolean.  There was an infamous "white paper" outlining a plan to return some of the land to be a Jewish homeland.  During the period between the world wars, there was a movement by Jews to buy up land in Palestine, which was considered worthless by the land owners.  The British made it impossible for Jews to move to the Holy Land during WWII. In 1948, the narrow state of Israel was formed and was immediately attacked on all sides as the British turned over all arms to the Arabs. During the '67 war, Israel did sieze land that belonged to it's neighbors as a "security zone".  According to International Law, this is legal, as long as the country was attacked and defending its borders.   It is horrible that this strip of land is fought over (and over).  Israel has a right to exist and to defend its borders.  One of the signs that Armageddon is coming is when all of Israel's friends turn their backs on them.  Although the USA preaches that they support Israel, many of their concessions are forced by financial means (loan guarantees, etc.) I could go on and on, HOWEVER, it would be better that you look up the REAL history yourself.   ::) Ray

You're a very eloquent man, Ray, and have said it better than I could in a million years.
People seem to forget the land was Hebrew even before any muslem could take any rights on it.
Jews were driven from their land millenia ago, we seem to forget that somehow.

Kudos Ray.

Pascal.

Pascal:

I had to cut my ramble down to the bone to type that out.  There's oh so much more to the story.  The bible section I was referring to in the previous post comes from the Old Testament prophet, Zechariah.  At the risk of offending anyone who is not "bible friendly", I thought I could copy a few verses from there to continue discussion.


Quote:

Zechariah 12 (New International Version) Zechariah 12 Jerusalem's Enemies to Be Destroyed An Oracle 1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.' 6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

Wishing you all the best,

Ray

Potter wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 3:14pm:

Didn't the Jews just take the piece of Palestine that they wanted for a Jewish state?                         Potter

Not quite correct, although Potter is heading in the right direction.  If one reads the current history (and I"m talking about 20th and 21st history) in regards to this area, it was the British mandate (see the Balfour Declaration of 1917) that actually granted the Jewish people a homeland of their own.  Some of that land was obtained legally, some was not.

Both sides have been *in the wrong* since this started.  The peaceful Palestinians who live inside Israeli territory have never been granted any type of *status* as citizens or anything else.  The radical Palestinians want to see Israel destroyed at all costs.  FWIW, I am in no way, shape or form endosing any type of militant behavior, be it Hamas or any other group.

BTW, Israel is not the only democracy in the Mid-East (look it up, I did).

Until the radical elements are controlled, there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East.

Michael,

Have you been able to contact your family members to see if they are safe?  If you do, let them know I will keep them in my thoughts.

My friend from high school, his wife and children also live in Israel.  :'(

That seems weird, Ray.  I have never read the bible, but it seems as if that scene is saying all these centuries of death, destruction and fighting are all in the LORD's plan.......and that when all the fighting and death and destruction capitulates, thats when the real death and destruction will start.

So, if this is the LORD's plan, who are we to try to change the will of the LORD?  Why don't we just go along with it?

Hamas was warned, now it is time to pay the price....WHAM. The UN did not call for a cease fire when Hamas was launching 80 rockets into Israel a day!

Payback is a bitch!  ;)

Good Question!  Short answer -- Israel and the USA are not a Theocracy.  Meaning that God is NOT the head of our government.

In my personal opinion, God is at least smarter than us.  I think He could do a better job than our elected officials.  Please feel free to read the rest of Zechariah chapter 12 on START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE.

With best regards,

Ray

We have been trying for 60 years to keep them from killin each other, and they are still killin each other… A futile waste of money and effort to delay the inevitable.

Quote:

Both sides have been *in the wrong* since this started.

4000 years of war someone is wrong. :D I pray for all of them.
I hope your family is safe Micheal.
the bb

The place would not have been such a magnet for war if not so many major religions claim it to be their holy land.

For the Catholics, its where Jesus was born and crucified. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is there.  For the Muslims, its the 3rd holiest city after Mecca and Medina, since thats where their prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven. They built The Dome of Rock ( mosque ) here and they have every intention of keeping it there. For the Judais, that was where Moses received the Ten Commandments and the First Temple was built to house the Ark of the Covenant. For the Jews, that was the site of two holy temples. Its related to their most important celebration of the Passover. Its also the site where the third and final Jewish temple should be built.

Interestingly, they are supposedly all worshipping the same God and actually have the same roots.

I dont know if the whole thing is God's plan. Somehow I dont believe an all loving God would plan for human to continue killing each others for thousands of years. Rather I think its man's greed for the power associated with their respective religion, and intolerance of one another, that keep the bloodshed going.

Throughout history, mankind has waged many wars and taken many lives, in the name of God. Yet in every religious teaching, peace and love and tolerance are preached. We human are a paradoxical creature.

Micheal, I pray that your family members there will be safe.

I may be historically challenged but from my reading of history, it's all the west bank. Without it, Israel....as we know it, would not exist.

Charlie

I have my own point of view on all of this, but I would be accused of being a Zionist zealot. Meh... The UN needs to STFU and let Israel handle the problem as it sees fit. Israel has long been patient. If they drop the hammer on Hamas,  I don't think anyone can blame them. (Hamas, which is listed unanimously among civilized nations as a terrorist organization, I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone.)

Frank_W wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 11:20pm:

The UN needs to STFU and let Israel handle the problem as it sees fit. Israel has long been patient. If they drop the hammer on Hamas,  I don't think anyone can blame them. (Hamas, which is listed unanimously among civilized nations as a terrorist organization, I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone.)

I agree 100%.....Lenny

Frank_W wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 11:20pm:

The UN needs to STFU and let Israel handle the problem as it sees fit. Israel has long been patient. If they drop the hammer on Hamas,  I don't think anyone can blame them. (Hamas, which is listed unanimously among civilized nations as a terrorist organization, I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone.)

If you lay land mines for a living, you are eventually going to step on one. Therefore don’t live in a minefield of your own making.

The UN slid that territory in on the sly and the US’s culpability has persuaded us to pay for it ever since we backed it, and helped to push it into existence.

I say again, they are going to kill each other whether we care or not. Why should we fund the destruction further by supporting one side or the other?

Futile it is, and futile it will always be. Let god sort them out after their self imposed demise.

Roland.

It's been a sad and unfortunate situation for too long.  I pray your loved ones stay out of harms way Michael.

Beth

I did read all the responses to my initial post with grate interest, and to my replay to potters post.....
I thank you all for the concern for my family in Israel.... they are doing well, and if not wrong
my brother will be drafted to his post in the IDF.

To my response to some of the points that have been posted, as well as to Potters answer to my post, I will start with the last; Potter I did see the question mark at the end of your posted phrase, and have mistaken it for a provocation, I am sorry! the way you have posted it is the way most of the anti Israeli propaganda is abused.... the use of “innocent” dictum; didn’t the Zionists take the land of the Palestinians?.......

most of the facts have been posted already, so I will not repost the facts, I do want to add that the so called „Palestinian” problem as we know it today is mainly the out come of the six days war in 1967, but the misery the region has suffered from goes back to the UN resolution and the Reinstate of the state of Israel in 1948.
The refusal of the bordering Arab nations to recognize the right of the Jewish nation for a home land, and launching a war to annihilate the new borne nation / state of Israel (1948) a war that left the borders of Israel until 1967, with one war in between a war initiated by the United Kingdom and France, to re-open the Suez Canal in 1956, The background for the war were disputes over rights of control over the traffic passing through the Suez Canal, who was to own the canal, 1956 July 26: President Nasser of Egypt nationalizes the Suez Canal, and all of its assets. This as a response to Western unwillingness to help in financing the building of the new Aswan High Dam.

The “after mass” of the Six Days War, Israel occupying (freeing) the West Bank (of the Jordan River), all the Sinai peninsula, and the Golan Hights, Israel's territory grew by a factor of three, including about one million Arabs placed under Israel's direct control in the newly captured territories. Israel's strategic depth grew to at least 300 kilometers in the south, 60 kilometers in the east and 20 kilometers of extremely rugged terrain in the north, a security asset that would prove useful in the “Yom Kippur” war 1973 six years later.

After the “Yom Kippur” war 1973, the base to a Peaceful road has been seeded.... the historic visit of the Egyptian president in Israel paved the way to a peace accord between the tow nations, Israel and Egypt in September 1978, The Accords led directly to the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty.
During 1994 the ice was broken, after the Oslo Accords with the PLO, during July 1994 Declared that Israel and Jordan would end the official state of enmity and would start negotiations in order to achieve an "end to bloodshed and sorrow" and a just and lasting peace. On October 26, 1994 Jordan and Israel then signed the historic peace treaty.
For Bothe Peace treaties, and the Oslo Accord Israel has given up land and control over the majority of the occupied territories during the Six Days War (1967), with the hope that the situation in the middle east will improve and prosperity will come to the region.

The fundamentalists did not see it that way, the agenda dictated by Muslim radicals, backed by regimes in fundamental Muslim states, namely, to spared terror and the distraction of Israel.

With this given (preconditions) the peace process in the Mid. East has very little chance, the in ability of the radical Islamic organizations to recognize the existence and right for a Jewish state (Israel) for peaceful and safe existence, is in the core of the situation.
As long as this right for mutual existence with respect, there is no way we will see peace in the area soon or ever....

It is a very simplified version and vision of the situation, and is the way I see it as a Jew, and an Israeli,
I do recognize the fact that there are some border problems, problems that can be solved!
but one can not solve a problem with out the willingness and interest of one of the parties, or better put, the sole interest and desire of one of the parties to annihilate the other party, the fundamental desire of the radical Islamic party’s to annihilate the Jewish state of Israel.


Michael

This is where I disagree with you Michael, I see it as an Israeli defending his country without a denominational value preset to it. Fighting over religion is not going to get anyone closer to god figuratively, only literally.

Roland.

Fair & balanced?

Michael,

I'm glad your family is safe and I pray that they'll stay that way.

Now for my 2 cents on this subject (and ya'll knew it was coming didn't ya?)

I've always admired the Jews for their survival instincts. While I can't quote chapter and verse (I'm too darn lazy to look it up), I do know from history (and yes, I have studied it) they have survived all kinds of unsurmountable odds and survived them all. Not just lately, but since time began (or as far back as I've been able to study). People have always tried to "wipe them out" and yet they've survivied and become stronger each time.

From the posts here, I see a pattern. Israel is a small country surrounded by enemies, yet it has survived for thousands of years and is still surviving. Their enemies are trying to destroy them, yet they survive. That should tell us all something... they WILL survive this as they have for thousands of years and they WILL come back stronger than they were before.

Anyhow that's how I feel about it.

Hugs BD

Every weird-beard in the Middle East wants to decapitate Israel whether they publically (Iran) declare it or smite them with smiles (Egypt) in private.

Either way, as an incredibly foolish act on Israel's part they gave up the coastal land of Gaza in exchange for peach with militants. Within 6 months of the move weapons, people, bunkers, tunnels, etc were all being set up to more easily attack the Jews. And so they did.

The current position of Syria is that diplomatic relations (recognition) can be had if Israel will give up the Golan Heights! Ha! That's where the Syrians attacked them from last time and it's also atop mountains with strategic battering positions.

Instead, I think Israel should re-take Gaza, extend their borders, and tell the Arabs if it's so important that the Palestinians have their own turf, how bout giving a little up in Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or some other desert location?

A religious kaleidoscope of hatred. Jews, Christians and Muslims entangled in a never ending exhibition of stupidity.

Steve G

Well, the Jews and the Christians get along pretty good, and so do those who follow a more moderate, peaceful form of Islam, such as the Sufis. All of them share Jerusalem, and it's not a problem, until the Islamo-fascists decide to solve problems the way they always have: With violence. You would think that over eight centuries of bloodshed would teach them something, but there they are, wailing and screaming like this current Israeli retaliation is some unprecedented and unforeseen consequence. Idiots.

i found this article very interesting. NO, it's not intended to raise the temperture of the debate, only to broden it. Andrew.
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BarbaraD wrote on Dec 29^th, 2008 at 6:37am:

From the posts here, I see a pattern. Israel is a small country surrounded by enemies, yet it has survived for thousands of years and is still surviving. Their enemies are trying to destroy them, yet they survive. That should tell us all something... they WILL survive this as they have for thousands of years and they WILL come back stronger than they were before.

Israel's inception...

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A bit of history here

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The archeological record indicates that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples and invading tribes. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C., it is thought that a Semitic people called Hebrews (hapiru) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. Canaan was settled by different tribes including Semitic peoples, Hittites, and later Philistines, peoples of the sea who are thought to have arrived from Mycenae, or to be part of the ancient Greek peoples that also settled Mycenae.

According to the Bible, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan.  Based on biblical traditions, it is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Transjordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD.

The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C.  They destroyed Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, and exiled a large number of Jews.  About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia. Cyrus allowed a group of Jews from Babylonia to rebuild Jerusalem and settle in it. However, a large number of Jews remained in Babylonia, forming the first Jewish Diaspora. After the reestablishment of a Jewish state or protectorate, the Babylonian exiles maintained contact with authorities there. The Persians ruled the land from about 530 to 331 B.C. Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine about 200 B.C. At first, the new rulers, called Seleucids, allowed the practice of Judaism. But later, one of the kings, Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem. The kingdom received Roman "protection" when Judah Maccabee was made a "friend of the Roman senate and people" in 164 B.C. according to the records of Roman historians.

About 61 B.C., Roman troops under Pompei invaded Judea and sacked Jerusalem in support of King Herod. Judea had become a client state of Rome
The Romans called the large central area of the land, which included Jerusalem, Judea. According to Christian belief, Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, Judea, in the early years of Roman rule. Roman rulers put down Jewish revolts in about A.D. 70 and A.D. 132. In A.D. 135, the Romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem, following the failed Bar Kochba revolt. The Romans named the area Palaestina, at about this time. The name Palaestina, which  became Palestine in English.

Jewish communities continued to exist, primarily in the Galilee, the northernmost part of Palestine. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire. In time, Christianity spread to most of Palestine. The population consisted of Jewish converts to Christianity and paganism, peoples imported by the Romans, and others who had probably inhabited Palestine continuously.


During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim  Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem (Al-Quds)  became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammad ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride from Mecca on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temples.

The Seljuk Turks conquered Jerusalem in 1071, but their rule in Palestine lasted less than 30 years. Initially they were replaced by the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. The Fatimids took advantage of the Seljuk struggles with the Christian crusaders. They made an alliance with the crusaders in 1098 and captured Jerusalem, Jaffa and other parts of Palestine.

The Crusaders, however, broke the alliance and invaded Palestine about a year later. They captured Jaffa and Jerusalem in 1099, slaughtered many Jewish and Muslim defenders and forbade Jews to live in Jerusalem. They held the city until 1187.

In the mid-1200's, Mamelukes, originally soldier-slaves of the Arabs based in Egypt, established an empire that in time included the area of Palestine. Arab-speaking Muslims made up most of the population of the area once called Palestine. Beginning in the late 1300's, Jews from Spain and other Mediterranean lands settled in Jerusalem and other parts of the land. The Ottoman Empire defeated the Mamelukes in 1517, and Palestine became part of the Ottoman Empire. The Turkish Sultan invited Jews fleeing the Spanish Catholic inquisition to settle in the Turkish empire, including several cities in Palestine.

In 1798, Napoleon entered the land. The war with Napoleon and subsequent misadministration by Egyptian and Ottoman rulers, reduced the population of Palestine. Arabs and Jews fled to safer and more prosperous lands. Revolts by Palestinian Arabs against Egyptian and Ottoman rule at this time may have helped to catalyze Palestinian national feeling. Subsequent reorganization and opening of the Turkish Empire to foreigners restored some order. They also allowed the beginnings of Jewish settlement under various Zionist and proto-Zionist movements.  Both Arab and Jewish population increased. By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000. At about that time, the Ottoman government imposed severe restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchase, and also began actively soliciting inviting Muslims from other parts of the Ottoman empire to settle in Palestine, including Circassians and Bosnians.  The restrictions were evaded in various ways by Jews seeking to colonize Palestine, chiefly by bribery.

Perhaps a map of the world will bring a little more understanding about the people of that part of the planet. I mean once you understand where they come from after all.
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They just can't help themselves.

Re: The Video you posted:

1. Are all the women, little girls and little boys who are targeted by the THOUSANDS of missiles launch terrorists?

2. Which came first? The thousands of missiles OR this recent bombing?

3. There is almost NO international pressure in Israel to stop. DO YOU KNOW WHY? Becuase HAMAS started it. Do you think the world allow this much IF Hamas DID NOT FIRE THOSE THOUSANDS of rockets, into Israel?

4. Why do these Palestinian supporters think that they can fire thousands of weapons indiscriminately at civilan targets, yet cry and try to introduce propaganda when the person they shot at FIRES BACK.

NO ONE CARES ABOUT HAMAS AND THE PALESTINIANS, because no matter how bad they have it, EVERYONE THINKS THEY DESERVE IT. If Hamas is NOT WILLING TO RESPECT civilians, WHY SHOULD ANYONE REPECT THEIR CIVILIANS.

So to answer the questions on the video, YES, that little girl is a terrorist, and YES, that little boy is a terrorist. And the ONLY thing that is upsetting to me and MILLIONS of people throughout the world is that those little terrorists WERENT KILLED. For in 5 or 10 years THEY will be the next suicide bomber or missile launcher.
KILL THEM ALL ISRAEL, DO NOT STOP. NO ONE WILL STOP YOU BECAUSE THE ENTIRE WORLD REALIZES HAMAS IS TOO STUPID TO FUNCTION IN MODERN SOCIETY.
Kill EVERY LAST Man, Women, Child, BABY, EVERYONE.

The world will be better off without them.

Posted 3 hours ago by "Proud_Infidel"

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This is not the answer. Alas, violence begets violence. Andrew.

Not sure if you're talking about Hamas violence or Israelie retaliation but it seems to me that in WW1 & WW2 violence ended violence.

Bob P wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 7:55am:

Not sure if you're talking about Hamas violence or Israelie retaliation but it seems to me that in WW1 & WW2 violence ended violence.

Yep. And right up until the United States entered the European theater, the newspapers were still writing articles and editorials on how the US could (and should) get along with a Hitler-controlled Europe. Pacifism seemed to be the popular choice. In hindsight, it seems crazy, doesn't it?

When you have a rabid dog running amock and biting everyone in sight, there is no appeasing it. The most effective solution is the most obvious one: A bullet through the dog's head.

Actually, it was Israel that broke the cease-fire agreement back in November when they killed 6 Palestinians, including a UN worker.  After that, Israel put a complete block on what little food, water, fuel, etc. they were allowing into Gaza.  That's when they started shooting the rockets at Israel.  Imprisoned, starving, and innocents being killed, the rockets seem a bit justified (not that I agree with it) in that they felt that was their only option.  The rockets never actually killed anyone until after Israel started the air assaults on Gaza.  

Not to mention, Israel has been planning the assault for 6 months now, back when they were signing the cease-fire.  They said the cease-fire gave them time to build up and plan for the attack.  

A few other reasons why the people in Gaza felt that shooting rockets was their only option (all happening during the cease-fire):

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I'am against violence per se.

ww1, that started in 1914, had over a 100 countries involved.

ww2, that ended in 1945, had over 100 countries involved.

this conflict has 2 countries, one strong and one weak.

It's wrong. Andrew.

Why is it wrong? Israel has made concession after concession to the Palestinians over the years, and every single time, rather than peace or security, they've been met with hatred, violence, and terrorism.

Would it be less "wrong" if Israel just dropped its guard, disbanded its military, and let itself be overrun?

Would it be less "wrong" for Israel to continue to let Hamas rockets fall on their cities and civilians and not take action?

What if Mexico decided to start dropping rockets on El Paso? Would you support US military action in retaliation, or would that also be "wrong"?

What if Ireland began raining rockets on London? Would England's military retaliation be "wrong"?

I'm trying to understand, but your point of view is rather puzzling...

I dont know what is so complicated......stop shooting rockets at me and I will stop killing your whole country.

What does Hamas not get? ......Or do they not give a fuck about their people.

   What if the Jews bought Florida and moved?

               Potter

I was going to say, the US could absorb the population of Israel...

just sayin... :-/

Why should they? And why should Israel leave their country and evacuate the Holy Land? I'm not a Christian or a Jew, but even I recognize the importance of that land to the Jews and Christians.

I suppose that after 9/11, the United States should have turned New York City over to Al-Qaeda because the rest of the country could easily absorb the population of Manhattan and New York City. Is this what you're saying?

No Frank, I'm not.  I'm just saying that they have been at war with each other for DECADES.  Can you honestly say that either side will concede??  Seriously????  Do you think that property rights are respected ANYWHERE in this world??  Really??

I'm just sayin, it'd be one (albeit a really far fetched one) solution...

Hrmmm... And how long until Islamic extremists were making incursions and launching attacks, and we had the same situation, here? Honestly, it would probably really great if Israel could feasibly pull out and find a more peaceful place to build their homeland, but they shouldn't have to, and I agree that at this point, Hamas is reaping what it has sown.

The Palestinian civilians of Gaza are as much victims as the Israeli civilians that Hamas has been rocketing for months, now. On Christmas day, 80 rockets were launched by Hamas into southern Israel. Can you imagine what the US retaliation would be if Mexico launched 80 rockets into El Paso?

I totally understand what you're saying, ok?  I'm not completely oblivious to it.

Why should the Christians have a dog in this fight?  If they are going to be represented here, then the Muslims have that right too.

The Jews have been fighting for that particular area since 1800-1500 BC.  The Muslims have been in that area since 658 AD.  Between them killing themselves off and the Christians (Crusades wiped out Muslims and Jews alike) killing both off, it's no wonder that it's a long convoluted story here.

The whole situation really sucks... I don't know that there will ever be peace, there. No doubt about it: War sucks. I've been twice, and have no desire to ever go again...

Israel is really between a rock and a hard place. If they do nothing, they keep getting hit with attacks. If they wall off Gaza and end humanitarian and diplomatic ties with Palestine, they are vilified. If they defend themselves, they are vilified. If they make concessions, they are met with aggression and seen as weak. If they don't make concessions, they are seen as the oppressor.

When these rocket attacks first began, I thought, Oh hell.. Here we go... And I was surprised that Israel did nothing. When the rocket attacks continued, I was amazed that Israel did nothing. As the days and weeks of rocket attacks continued, I wondered what they were waiting for.

I'm sure the Arab world wondered the same thing. At this point, according to the Israeli Defense Minister, the goal is not regime change in Palestine. The goal is for the rocket attacks to stop, and for the Israeli people in southern Israel to be able to live in peace. He said that if the rocket attacks stop tomorrow, the Israeli operation will end tomorrow.

It's hard to argue with that.

Frank:

BOHICA sums it up.  If you're a Jew or a Christian, that land was given to Abraham and his descendants (seed) forever.  The Koran lists Abraham as a prophet, but didn't seemingly get that property rights correctly.

sigh,

Ray

It seems hopeless. They used what little chance they had to do everything but find a way to get along. Terror, not a hint of something constructive. Israelis have only so much patience with this bunch.

Charlie

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Quote:

this conflict has 2 countries, one strong and one weak.

Actually it has just one country involved, Israel.  This is Israel vs the terrorist group Hamas.  As usual the terrorists hide within the general population hoping to increase civilian casualties and turn public oppinion against the attackers.  It astonishes me how quickly people fall for this tactic!

i'am not sure which of the peoples have a right to be in the area. for me, what is occurring is wrong. andrew.

Discussing land rights and who was there first and all that stuff is just getting very far afield from the issues at hand: Whatever the history, the borders of Israel are what they are, and rather than living in peace, they have been rocketed day after day by a neighbor who refuses to live in peace. Israel is defending itself.

That being said, I'm unsure of why there is a ground offensive and what the aims of that offensive are.

At this point, there needs to be some avenue opened up for refugees to leave Gaza so that civilian casualties can be kept to a minimum.

Frank_W wrote on Jan 4^th, 2009 at 5:03pm:

At this point, there needs to be some avenue opened up for refugees to leave Gaza so that civilian casualties can be kept to a minimum.

They've been told for days to leave, thousands of leaflets dropped on them.

Oh well!

Well, i was listening to one man who was being interviewed by telephone, and he said, "Where am I going to go? There IS nowhere to go! Besides, I'd rather die in my home, if it comes down to that."

It's a sentiment I can understand... I think the Palestinian civilians are as much victims of Hamas as the Israeli civilians in southern Israel. They just seem like they're caught between the hammer and the anvil...

There aren't going to be any easy answers forthcoming. It's a tragedy all the way around. Until the civilized world wakes up and joins together to combat extremism, this problem is going to continue.

Arabs, moderate Muslims, Christians, Jews, secular governments... All need to forge an alliance and a united front against the scourge of radical fundamentalism and terrorism.

I feel so absolutely horrible for the people caught in the crossfire.  It just tears at my heart.

Hamas sucks! >:(

Quote:

Hamas sucks!

They sure do. Lets look at who is supply's the weapons and money.
Syria/Iran sucks as well. Iran has been kicking that pile for 30 years.
Syria has been providing money and weapons for years. Lets not forget Pakistan who turns a blind eye to extremism.
Terrorists and radical muslim extremists will only continue what they do so well, kill innocent people even their own.
all the best
the bb

What's sad is that modern Israel has been around only since I was 2 and it's been a mess from the beginning. I thought when I was young that a few generations down the road, things would ease up but nope. Their neighbors make sure to teach hatred as a way of life and it's more dangerous to the whole world today than ever.

An aside: Christians and Jews get along well? Now they do but even in the 1950s, Jews in my town were called everything but Jews when I was a kid. My Christian neighbors had very little good to say about Catholics and kids attending Catechism were treated badly as well. It's not so long ago..........

Charlie

Charlie, you have a point. I was one of those Catholic kids and I remember how we were treated. I also remember hearing things like, "You gotta watch that damn Jew - he'll overcharge you if you're not careful." We've come a long way in less than 60 years.

Look at how blacks were treated all over the country as recent as the 60's and early 70s. Granted it wasn't on the "mass" scale as in the mid east, but we had our share of terrorism right here in the good old US with cross burning, bombings, hangings, etc. Some of the younger kids around here don't remember the David Dukes or the Central High School in Little Rock or the Klan (thank goodness) or some of the things we saw right here in River City...

It's just a damn shame that people can't figure out that we're all different, we think different, we worship different, we look different and get over it. That's what makes us unique. All we're succeeding in doing is instilling hate in our children and it will never get better.

Hugs BD

Some more thoughts on the war. Someone said that Israel's actions were immoral and I began thinking on this...

It's not a moral issue. There are some who feel that all violence is immoral, and I can appreciate that point of view and why someone might hold that point of view, but what I fail to understand is why Hamas is getting a free pass on the violence that they've showered on Israel for weeks and weeks, and when Israel finally defends itself, then that moral outrage is directed at Israel.

If Hamas hadn't done anything and Israel was taking their current action without any sort of provocation, then I would find that reprehensible. At this point, I have a few hopes:

1. That civilians will be able to remain out of the line of fire. (Even though Hamas is using them for shields. Talk about immoral!!)

2. That Hamas is crippled so badly in these attacks, that it finally gets through their thick and stupid skulls that terrorism and violence are no longer viable options.

3. That Israeli and Palestinian civilians are allowed to live in peace and security the way they deserve to, because deep down, that's what most people want: To live in peace and to raise their families in safety, with plenty of food and clean water, and decent schools.

4. That Hamas realizes how they have squandered the majority of Arab support for their cause. Hamas was so sure that they were doing what the whole Arab world wanted, by rocketing Israel, and I think they banked on the fact that once Israel retaliated, the rest of the Arab world would pitch in to overthrow and overrun Israel, and that Hamas would be the big heroes of the day. It's interesting that every Arab government, with perhaps the exception of Iran, has turned its back on Hamas and its terrorist tactics. Hamas made a gamble and lost. Badly.

As I pointed out before, Palestine was not the one that broke the cease-fire.  They weren't firing rockets into Israel until Israel went in and killed 6 Palestinians and basically blocked all food, water, fuel, etc. from going into Gaza and not allowing anyone in or out.  How does that make Hamas the one responsible?  They were told for days to leave??  They can't leave, Israel has blocked anyone and everyone from leaving for over 2 months now.  Plus the day before Israel started air attacks, the defense minister was in Egypt and said they weren't planning an attack.

The whole thing is a political move to get the current government re-elected in a month because they're seen as "too soft" on Palestinians.  The other guys have already voiced their ways to rid the whole area of all Palestinians.  This is much like we've seen in our history - Presidents going to a war to secure a re-election.  It has been planned since the cease-fire was signed by Israel.

Palestinians do not hate Israel or Jews.  They hate the government and settlers for the abuse they're doing to them.  Before Israel was a state, Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived together in peace.  The Palestinians just want to be able to work, get to work and live normal lives, not have their homes and belongings taken from them, taking them 5 hours to get to work that would otherwise take them 20 minutes, not be beaten and abused by Israeli settlers and soldiers and not have innocent children killed by the Israeli settlers and soldiers.

Audre wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 10:16am:

As I pointed out before, Palestine was not the one that broke the cease-fire.  They weren't firing rockets into Israel until Israel went in and killed 6 Palestinians and basically blocked all food, water, fuel, etc. from going into Gaza and not allowing anyone in or out.  How does that make Hamas the one responsible?

Audre, you are confusing me.  Are you grouping Hamas and the Palestinians together??

The Palestinians don't hate Israel or the Jews? Hrmmmm... Then that "Death to Israel!!" screaming and suicide bombing and hostage taking, and teaching their children that Israeli children are related to pigs and dogs -- They were just bullshitting?

Oh... I didn't know that.  [smiley=confused2.gif]

I was wondering the same thing Frank. If they (Palestinians) are so interested in "living in peace" then why the hell don't they start helping the cause instead of letting the radicals live among them? It would seem to me that if they are so interested in peace, they would start making calls and letting Israel know where the hell they are hiding.

Jimmers

Well, Israel is attacking the area, grouping Palestinians and Hamas as one....

It was a mistype but it doesn't take away the overall point of my post.

If your land, home, all possessions were taken from you, by force, and you were forced to live in one of the most densely populated areas, weren't allowed to leave the area, had no water, food, fuel, saw innocent children being killed all the time, what would you do?  The rocket attacks are not to kill anyone, they are to get attention.  No one payed much attention to them when they weren't firing them and Israel was still bullying and killing them.  These are the actions of desperate people.  I'm not saying it's right, by any means, but we're not there, we don't have to live like they do so it's hard for us to understand why people would feel the need to take those actions.  As far as holding hostage, Hamas has one, where Israel has many.  I'm not saying it's right again, but we have to look at both sides here.  The teaching their children that Israeli children are related to pigs and dogs...I've never heard that.  I have heard numerous Israelis saying all Palestinians are animals - monkeys, dogs, gorillas. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

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Audre, I completely agree.

Had I lived most of my life in those conditions, I would be sure to be desperate, and I'm sure Hamas would feel like a very good choice. If I remember right, the Palestinian people voted Hamas into their parliament, instead of the previous party, Fatah. Voting Hamas was seen as voting for direction instead of stagnation. Fatah was seen as more of the same - more of hopeless existence without a better future.

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It's a blog about the Iraq war, by a Baghdad resident.

- Best regards,
Rosa

Hamas is, and always has been, a gang of terrorists. But THIS TIME, they're just using rockets as a cry for help, rather than sending a delegation to the UN, or approaching their problems in a civilized manner, and the world is supposed to feel sorry for them. "We're not terrorists, this time! We're just asking for help, with 80 fucking rockets launched into southern Israel on Christmas day, and weeks and weeks of daily rocket attacks!"

Come on.

War is a terrible, awful thing. I've been to war twice. I've buried friends, seen friends with limbs blown off, and I've seen civilians killed by either terrorists (not "insurgents") or killed as collateral damage. No one abhors war more than someone who has lived it, or is in the military and has to fight it.

This crying and hand-wringing over the poor Palestinians, though... Wow... I'm sorry, but common sense seems to have taken a vacation, or something.

*shrug*

Whatever. I'm done with this thread. It's like arguing religion, abortion, or politics. It's just stupid and pointless.

Yes, the Palestinians voted Hamas in over Fatah.  Hamas promised diplomacy with Israel and Fatah was corrupt.  Yassir Arafat was given money from the US for aid for Palestine to build schools, etc. but he ended up keeping that for himself (millions, possibly billions of dollars).  Hamas actually did try diplomacy with Israel.

"The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."

Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.

Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food. "

Hamas did try to get another cease-fire going before the last one expired, before Israel started the air attacks.  

"Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms."

Folks:

I could talk for hours about this, but I don't want to here as it would exhaust all of my energy.

War is hell.

Hiding combatants, missile launchers, munitions, etc. among civilian populations (to deter reprisals and show the collateral damage to the press) is illegal according to the Geneva Convention.

There is a long history of Israel needing to stand alone against gross violations  of International Law.  I would like nothing less than neighbours being neighbours and acting according to the golden rule.

It would be incredibly short sighted and incredibly ignorant of the facts and history of the area to think otherwise.

I do not mean to single any of you out, individually or collectively but pray you take an intelligent look at the history of the State of Israel and it's wars with it's neighbours.

Ray

As I said, Hamas has been trying to get peace agreements with Israel, but Israel rejects it every time.  The UN is pretty pointless, the resolutions against Israel are either vetoed by the US (and only the US) or they are completely ignored.  

US vetoed resolutions:
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Not to mention that Israel's use of cluster bombs, white phosphorus bombs and depleted uranium munition is also against international law, especially in highly dense populations with many civilians trapped.  

Hamas wanting peace?
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The situation in the Gaza area is very desperate, and sad!
The situation in the bordering area within Israel is intolerable!
The Hamas takes refuge with in the “innocent” population, be it by force, or use the population sympathizing with the Hamas as a shield for the misdoing of the Hamas militants, and the military fractions with in Hamas. Using human (partly innocent) as a human shield is the lowest of the military tactics and even Guerrilla tactics.... it is cowardly, and on top of it in-human.... a crime against humanity.... against the people they are to protect and represent!
The Hamas militants use UN sponsored schools to launch rockets into Israel, the use religious buildings as a bunker and launches facility... they abuse every public facility for staging the war on Israel.....
Israel (Israeli government) has the obligation to provide its citizens with proper and peaceful lives.... which it is doing now.... and with full right!
The 6 month of “truth” had been abused by the Hamas, instead of improving the situation in the Gaza area, they have smuggled, manufactured and bought rockets, to be used against Israel..... All that money invested for distractive purpose, With one thing on the agenda, not the well being of the citizens of Gaza, the destruction of Israel.....
Audre, before posting claims driven out of propaganda, you should look into facts, which are to be found over the net as well as in history books.... The Hamas dose not recognize the state of Israel, and the right of Israel to exist.... with one goal, repeatedly chanted, the Zionists have to be KILD! all of them, and the state  of Israel destroyed.... is this a call for diplomacy? is this a way to find a partner for talks..... get your facts right!
Audry, Hamas radicals are not looking for a ceasefire, as you say, in order to get the situation in the Gaza area some what better for its citizens, the only reason is to get arms and regroup..... no humanitarian interest what so ever..... they didn’t have interest in the past, why now all of a sudden?
The fact is that the (recognized) representative of the Palestinians is Mahmud Abbess, and he is NOT recognized by the Hamas.... Hamas dose not recognize the Oslo accord..... Hamas the fundamentalists have one single target, desire, to annihilate the Jewish state of Israel.
And I an confident, this will not be the case!


Michael

PS, Audre, I wonder how would you call the US armed forces (I call them HEROES) that are stationed in Iraq... or Afghanistan, in harms way, fighting, hundreds of mails from home, against the sources of terror, source of evil, so you can sit at home in peace and tranquillity the same source that sponsors Hamas and spreads terror and hat rage around the world....

wildhaus wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 2:14pm:

Hamas the fundamentalists have one single target, desire, to annihilate the Jewish state of Israel. And I an confident, this will not be the case!

I'm not only confident, I'm sure!

Oliver

Thanks Michael!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said ;)

Jimmers

Here is the difference I see, there are thousands upon thousands of Arabs living in Israel peacefully, yet literally no Israelis living in the West Bank or Gaza...Why? Because they would die.

Another thing, I have no respect for anyone that would send their kids out to throw rocks at tanks? What are those people thinking?

Yes, the situation in and near Gaza is deplorable.  

Hamas, Palestinian ....  The fact is you're right - the Palestinians in Gaza actually elected Hamas with a majority over Fatah.

BBC 1/28/05:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE  "...In elections held in 10 districts of Gaza this week, Hamas won at least 75 seats out of 118 seats."

...and Hamas then went on to win the majority in the first Palestinian parliamentary elections the following year:

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"In Wednesday's voting, Hamas claimed 76 of the 132 parliamentary seats, giving the party at war with Israel the right to form the next cabinet under the Palestinian Authority's president, Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Fatah.

Fatah, which has dominated the legislature since the previous elections a decade ago and the Palestinian cause for far longer, won 43 seats. A collection of nationalist, leftist and independent parties claimed the rest."

Audre, while you are correct about Israel's sanctions against Gaza, those sanctions exist(ed) for several reasons - the main one being that Hamas has been stealing the supplies and preventing their distribution to the civilian population.  Even the UN stopped its aid mid last year because of Hamas.  ...Of course there was an international boycott because Hamas seized Gaza by force in June 2007.  

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And the Palestinian Authority has refused to recognize Israel's right to exist.  So what diplomacy?  What improving terms?  In my mind, at this point, Hamas is responsible for Gaza's suffering, not Israel.

Michael, I appreciate your desire not to rehash the facts, but I think a couple are important.

In fact, the "Palestinians" to whom we refer are hardly a united or even ethnically "coherent" people (complicating the problem), and Gaza has been a political nightmare - like many of the great British legacies - that even Egypt didn't want.

The "Palestinians" have always been a stateless, citizenshipless people in the Middle East - they are a collection of migrant workers and come from Iraq, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.  

Let's face it - the local Arab peoples were occupied for centuries by the Turks and had no national movement until the arrival of the British.  "Palestine" may have a place on the history maps - but "Palestinians" were people who worked in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc.  Hell - Arafat was born in Egypt.  

So Gaza as it exists today, as has already been pointed out, is a product of the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Egypt and Israel. (Egypt occupied the Strip from 1949, except for four months of Israeli occupation during the 1956 Suez Crisis, until 1967).

In 1948, the "All-Palestine Government" was proclaimed in Gaza City by the Arab League. The government was only recognized by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - and not by Jordan or other countries, let alone any non-Arab country. It was basically under Egyptian control, "had negligible influence or funding," and was subsequently moved to Cairo. Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip or Egypt were issued "All-Palestine" passports until 1959, when Nasser annulled the All-Palestine government by decree.  Notably, Egypt never annexed the Gaza Strip, but instead treated it as a controlled territory and administered it through a military governor.  The refugees were never offered Egyptian citizenship.  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

...so just who ARE the "Palestinian" refugees?  

Under UNRWA's (United Nation's Relief And Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) operational definition, Palestine refugees are "persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." UNRWA's definition "also covers the descendants through the male line of persons who became refugees in 1948."    START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

However, the UN traditional definition of a refugee is someone who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it."  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

The UN definition of Palestinian Refugees has allowed the population to balloon - according to Al Jazeera the population of the "Gaza Region" was 60,000 - 80,000 in 1948.  Of course the war caused an influx - again, according to Al Jazeera - of approx 200,000 to the Gaza strip.  According to the CIA Factbook, the current population of the strip is now 1.5 million.

As far as I'm concerned, the UN is partially responsible for exacerbating - or at least perpetuating - tensions in the Middle East.  Why are numerous towns and cities throughout the Middle East still called "refugee camps?"  OK - conditions in many are horrible and it is a serious shame.  But they are towns and cities - not camps in any traditional sense of the word.  IMO it's because it's to the political advantage of the Palestinian leadership - whoever that's been.

...And by allowing terrorists to turn "refugee camps" into the center of the Palestinian war machine, the international community has assisted in building the terrorists' system of control!  And instead of working to relieve the refugees' misery, the UN has dedicated an ENTIRE agency - UNRWA - to perpetuating it.

For the rest of the world, the UN works tirelessly to improve their conditions - to relocate them, to help them rebuild their lives.  With Palestinians, the U.N. does exactly the opposite, granting refugee status to the great-grandchildren of people displaced in 1948, doing nothing to dismantle the "camps" - because the Palestinian Authority doesn't want them to.

Israel has refused to be victimized.  The Palestinians have chosen to be victims - and it has NEVER worked for them.  And their people suffer because of it, and the Palestinians then terrorize Israel because of it.

Sadly, since its victory in the Palestinian Parliament, Hamas has failed to unify around a coherent program.  This has led to partisan tensions within the Palestinian Authority that verge on civil war.  And Palestinian civilians continue to suffer.  As do Israelis.

I don't know of any solutions either - but it seems to me the best resolution would be an Israeli "victory" in the sense of removing Hamas from power, and an international community that pressures the UN into changing its policies in the Middle East, potentially paving the road empowerment of Palestinian civilians as opposed to the propagation of terrorists and a real political process in what could be a Palestinian country.

Laurie

notseinfeld wrote on Dec 29^th, 2008 at 2:18pm:

Every weird-beard in the Middle East wants to decapitate Israel whether they publically (Iran) declare it or smite them with smiles (Egypt) in private. Either way, as an incredibly foolish act on Israel's part they gave up the coastal land of Gaza in exchange for peach with militants. Within 6 months of the move weapons, people, bunkers, tunnels, etc were all being set up to more easily attack the Jews. And so they did. The current position of Syria is that diplomatic relations (recognition) can be had if Israel will give up the Golan Heights! Ha! That's where the Syrians attacked them from last time and it's also atop mountains with strategic battering positions. Instead, I think Israel should re-take Gaza, extend their borders, and tell the Arabs if it's so important that the Palestinians have their own turf, how bout giving a little up in Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or some other desert location?

beautiful

Since we've declared war on terror, and Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization, maybe we should go help Israel.

Kinda nice that they can take care of business on their own.  The object here is to eliminate Hamas!

AnnaH wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

Here is the difference I see, there are thousands upon thousands of Arabs living in Israel peacefully, yet literally no Israelis living in the West Bank or Gaza...Why? Because they would die. Another thing, I have no respect for anyone that would send their kids out to throw rocks at tanks? What are those people thinking?

ditto  >:(

Hamas, Hezbollah, Alqueda, and many more need to be controlled or killed, ,,,OR THEY WILL KILL YOU.
I think we shold help Israel. Then flame IRAN and SYRIA. Slap a few of em around and watch the rest of'em settle right down.
the bb
It's a good thing I dont run the show. ;)

Here's the deal: We left Hamas alone to build hospitals, schools and other infrastructure. Did they? Nope....used it as expected as another staging ground for weapons to kill children.

I, for one, don't see an alternative other than what is going on at the moment.

Charlie

Quote:

I, for one, don't see an alternative other than what is going on at the moment.

How about this. It rains for 40 days and 40 nights, God... as everyone in that area see's him, threatens plague and pestulance until everyone sees the errors of their ways and decides to shake hands and live side by side in harmony with each other.


     ;)

Linda_Howell wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 10:34pm:

Quote: I, for one, don't see an alternative other than what is going on at the moment. How about this. It rains for 40 days and 40 nights

Your idea may be on it's way ;-) (see bold type below)

This is a letter I got from an old classmate living in Israel, and has a son in the Israeli army. At least it tells his side of the story. You'll be able to tell that he's a little bitter to say the least.

It will give you a little feel for what it's like, living in Israel.

Hi,

The most interesting news item that I've come across so far is that a
leading Hamas terrorhoid, Nizar Rayan, was recycled the other day in
Gaza. His house held tons of weapons, missiles and other explosives,
plus a tunnel leading under his house. When his house was hit it went
up in a way that made a major US 4th of July fireworks celebration
look like a Kid's sparkler in comparison. The Israeli Army actually
called Rayan on his cell phone and warned him that they were about to
blow his place to smithereens and instead of fleeing for his life he
called his 2 wives and 12 children in their house with a number of
other family members. He said he preferred for all of them to be
martyrs and that's what they got. That was delicious! I wish they'd
all decide to go that route. If survival of the fittest is the way
things work then clearly that level of Muslim terrorist can not be
expected to live long enough to survive to reproduce himself. His ilk
should be extinct within a generation or two max - providing the free
world would only give them that opportunity.

Yesterday there were a few jets that over flew us like bats outta
Hades, but at sub-sonic speed because it was obvious they didn't break
the sound barrier. The came in from the north east and within a second
they zipped over our heads toward the southwest horizon which goes to
Gaza. Much of the day we were hearing lots of distant booms and
"flumpf"-ing sounds from the south west. I guess that those were the
bombs going off – air support for our ground troops. There was
probably an air inversion between us and Gaza which bent the sounds
that come our way because the bombing has been going on for more than
a week and we haven't heard it until yesterday.

The air inversion must have dissipated as I don't hear a thing today.

On Saturday there as a jet's contrail in the clear blue sky. I assume
that was an observation jet that was making circles in the sky over
Gaza - like a slinky that was spread sideways. It was as plain as day
were that jet was. It was intentional since to make that kind of
trails in the sky that hang for an hour or two they can produce
prodigious amounts of smoke by spraying jet fuel on to the surface of
the hot engine and the resulting smoke hangs in the air for a long
time. I suppose it made Hamas think they're being watched so they'll
keep their heads down. Last Thursday and Friday the Israel
Meteorological Service rain radar showed rainstorms that hovered over
Gaza with no rain elsewhere. Perhaps that's why they held back the
ground operation until Saturday

The IDF Home Command has issued a map of missile ranges of the
missiles that Hamas has today and with it goes the ETA of a launched
missiles.

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What's interesting is that my house is now in range of their Grad
missiles. We live between Bethlehem and Hebron. I doubt that they'll
be launching them our way since over 98% of our area is open land or
agricultural and as far as they're concerned Tel-Aviv is a far better
target than us. Still in all, it's interesting to note that Gaza is
60 km (37.5 miles) from us so we have about 90 secs to get under cover should they be so unwise to launch one this way. That's a pretty
generous amount of time considering that the people in the town of
Sederot, the town that has been the primary target of Hamas missiles
for the last 3 years, has all of 15 seconds to get to cover from the
time that the alarms go off to when the missiles hit.

Our son is in the armored corps and his battalion will be heading into
Gaza in the near future. It doesn't make me feel good to know he may
come under fire, but armies are not built to be summer camps and
occasionally there's business that's not very pleasant but gotta be
done for the good of all.

An embarrassing moment for al-Jazeerah TV – the media outlet for Hamas
and other Muslim terror groups - as a British expert on international
law gave a complete backing to Israel's actions in Gaza.
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Palestinian legal adviser gets owned by Fox News
(Strange name, nothing to do with the film, must have been a mistake,
but it's good!)
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I'll keep yinz updated as worthwhile observations and novel news items
that you may not come across.




edit to add: sorry about how the cut and paste looks.  :-/

I just would like to add some Video material with Background on the IDF's operation "Cast Lead" in Gaza. Israel left Gaza in 2005 hoping for peace and a fresh start, but Hamas has destroyed that optimism through its continued support for terror against innocent civilians.
I know the source is the Israeli IDF Spokesperson's Unit, and one could say it is one party of the problem with self interest, it is truth, but I do think they are mostly honest, and pragmatic..... with less of chanting hat-rage slogans’, just simple ground facts....

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or just simply look at this link, Israeli IDF Spokesperson's Unit:

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Just some Info, you should be the judges, I am biased.....

Michael

I add,

Israel will halt its bombardment of Gaza for three hours every day to allow residents of the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory to obtain much-needed supplies, a military spokesman said Wednesday.
The announcement follows Israel's decision to open a "humanitarian corridor" into Gaza in response to mounting concerns about shortages of food, water and medicine in the territory.

I wonder what the Hamas will do..... help in providing so much needed humanitarian assistance, or will it just take the good will of the IDF to regroup and rearm, dig some more booby-traps along the roads and place rocket launchers with in the densely populated area with in Gaza city...... or just simply change the camouflage into normal dress.... and mingle into the population.... cowardly as they are......

I just wonder is this for real?

and some believe we can find a way to reconcile, to make peace......
with whom.... ?

Egyptian Cleric Safwat Higazi on Hamas TV:

Dispatch Those Sons of Apes and Pigs to the Hellfire – On the Wings of Qassam Rockets
Following are excerpts from a speech by Egyptian cleric Safwat Higazi,

"You Threaten To Kill Us?! By Allah, You Are Threatening Us With What We Desire More Than Anything"
Safwat Higazi: "Being killed is nothing new to us. It is what we desire and hope for. It is martyrdom, by Allah. This is Allah’s victory coming to us. It is Paradise with the first drop of blood of the martyr.
[...]
"I refuse to accept condolences or consolation over a martyr. It saddens me immensely when I see on TV a Palestinian woman from Gaza crying and wailing over her martyr. By Allah, I never see such things among the people of Palestine, the people of Gaza. We always see the mothers and wives of the martyrs in Palestine wailing for joy, and preparing another martyr, another man, to raise the banner.
[...]
"Being killed is nothing new to us. Martyrdom is nothing new to us. You threaten to kill us?! By Allah, you are threatening us with what we desire more than anything. You are threatening us with what our souls yearn for.
[...]
"By Allah, I wish I could carry my gear, carry my gun, and be among you. I wish I could stand among the youth of the Al-Qassam Brigades, passing them one of their missiles, wiping from their faces the dust of a missile that was launched, or crying 'Allah Akbar' along with them. By Allah, I wish I could do that."[...]
"You [In Hamas] Are The Ones Upon Whom Jesus, Son of Mary, Will Descend, Preaching the Religion of the Prophet Muhammad in Your Land"
"You [in Hamas] are the ones upon whom Jesus, son of Mary, will descend, preaching the religion of the Prophet Muhammad in your land. You are paving the way for the war foretold by the Prophet Muhammad: 'Judgment Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews. The Jews will hide behind stones and trees, but the stones and trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' You are the ones preparing the ground for this, preparing the ground for the return of the Caliphate in the path of the prophets." [...]
"Allah Is With Us... Our Dead Go to Paradise, While Your Dead Go to the Hellfire"
"Allah is with us, and there is nobody with them. Allah is our God, and there is nobody with them. We say to them: We are not equal. Our dead go to Paradise, while your dead go to the Hellfire. We say to them: The Qassam rockets will serve as Ababil birds. [1] Indeed, they are Ababil birds. We say to them that while our martyrs celebrate in Paradise, your dead find themselves in the Hellfire. We say to you: Dispatch those sons of apes and pigs to the Hellfire, on the wings of the Qassam rockets." [...]
"Jihad Is Our Path... This Is Our Strategic Option, And Not Peace... Because The Prophet Muhammad Told Us This"
"Jihad is our path - jihad for the sake of Allah, in all its forms. This is our strategic option, and not peace.
The [Jews]... Deserve to be Killed... Destroy... Everything Over There"
"The [Jews], who are as smooth as a viper, and who lick their lips as [does] a speckled snake, will never live with us in peace and harmony. They deserve to be killed. They deserve to die. They are the ones at whom the Qassam rockets should be fired. You should not care if you hit a man, a woman, or a child. destroy their places of worship. Destroy... everything over there."

[1] Ababil birds are described in the Koran as the dropping of red clay bricks on the army of elephants sent by the king of Yemen to attack Mecca in 571 CE.


I wonder.....

Michael

Quote:

Then flame IRAN and SYRIA.

My predictions:

There will be a peace deal with Syria in the next year or so.
Obamer is gonna have to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities (or get Israel to do it for him).

I'm going to just throw this out there: I think I was born 500 years too late, because if it were up to me to spearhead this operation, I would throttle the area like a pitbull shaking a chicken by the neck. I would drive the entire populace to the very beach, and I would level every single building, tunnel, and spider hole I could find. I would seize every firearm, every round of ammunition, and any knife over three inches in length. The slightest resistance would mean instantaneous death. No prisoners, no negotiating, no suing for peace. NOTHING.

Does this make me a bad person? Probably... I don't mind playing the villain on the grand stage, if it meant a time of peace and security for my people.

So yeah... Perhaps it's best that I'm not running this operation.

Quote:

Does this make me a bad person?

Not in my mind Frank. I forgot...if Pakistan continues to turn their back on muslim extremists...flame them too.
I have no tolerance for people that want to kill me and my family.
the bb
Go Israel!!!! Watch Hezbollah jump in with some rockets of their own.
Supplied by Iran ,funneled through Syria.

This was send to me by a very good friend and a fellow CH’er
from the USA via e-mail, With a very “intriguing” content......  
Tks. for providing me with this “enlightening” video.....

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can not  say much, I believe this speaks for it self......

Michael

I have been avoiding this thread for days, and for good reason, its pointless, but ,,,,,,,(I dont know how to do the fancy cut and paste) these comments by "thebbz" about "flameing Iran", or "slapping anround" , or "going and helping", are,,,, well,,,to be honest,,,,,,,  enough to make me never even return to CH.com. If I stated whats on my mind, I am sure i would get "jonnyed"(locked out).  I am not for, anyone, or against anything but more killing. The statements made by this guy , well.... sheesh, send your kids pal,,, leave mine out of it! Better yet,, hop a plane dude,, go get em!         Tuck   OH and by the way, before you start screaming about about anti American or any other drivel that may spew from your mouth, you have no clue as to the service record of me or my family.

uh,,,,, I am not going to retract my last post, but,,, I have sent an apologee to THEbbz. Just chalk my post up to,"a very frightened father of teenage sons"      Tuck

Tuck... I know I've made a number of insensitive remarks in this thread, and I guess I owe you an apology.

No one wants war, least of all, those who are called to fight it. It is a tragedy that civilians are caught in the crossfire, whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. It's frustrating, and of course, passions run high in discussions like these.

I hope your sons are safe. God bless and keep you all.

Frank,, NO sir,, you do NOT owe me an apology! we all, EVERY last one of us, is entitled to his or her opinion!!!!!! NO matter how wrong yours are!  (Kidding dude). As I told Thebbz in my P.M. , I have numerous family members that have faught in NUMEROUS wars and they are ALL messed up either physically or mentally. I simply fear for my sons, if those fears are well founded or not is really not the issue. I still fear.   Besides, I just read your response post concerning "old timers", and, ANY Stones fan is a friend of mine!!!!!!!!!!!!   Tuck

Right on, man. I'm also a veteran of two "operations." Army medic for six years. 87-93.

I'm a fan of the Stones.... Big time. (I'm also kind of a fan of the Hell's Angels)  :o ;D

Tuck,

I cant say I can follow your post, or what you are trying to say...... might be that it due to English not being my native tongue....

Still....

I find it in-correct to use the phrase “I am sure i would get "jonnyed"(locked out)”
it is most disrespectful, sarcastic, and out of place…….

Portraying a situation, Locked out, giving it a name, the way you have used it is un-acceptable……

Should I turn and use your words, bashing (in directly) the way you do, (is) enough to make me never even return to CH.com.

It will not make me go, I just try to make a point…..  

Michael

WHAT??????  First of all, My comment referring to "jonnyed" was meant with TOTAL respect!!!!! This was the first person i ever coresponded with on this site, and my respect for him is huge. By using that term, I was indicating how i was tempted to use FOUL language, something that Jonny uses elequenly, and simply flows from his tongue! SECONDLY,, for you to equate any of that with the topic at hand,,,WAR!!!,, borders on moronic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Tuck    P.S  yea,, Jonny, I was tempted to end this with the same two word phrase you last used, but will-power prevailed!  but,,,,, the thought is what matters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will not let my self be dragged so low......  

Michael

Oh settle down now. We are all frightened and concerned over the situation. No one....NO ONE want's more bloodshed, except those that are causing the situation. I dont expect all to agree with my opinion, but it is how I feel. I am fed up with terrorists, killing innocent people. They are not going to stop, we have to stop them. That is what Isreal is doing. If I were a good Christian I would let them kill me and enjoy the benefits of everlasting life. I cannot do that.
I feel that I must defend my family. Should Osama or any other terrorist happen to get in front of my weapon I would not hesitate.
You dont owe me an apology for your opinion. I wont apologize for mine. I did my duty in the military and intend on doing my duty for my family. If that means sacrificing my life for theirs so be it. Gladly.
I will not lie down and let religous fanatics harm them. I will say I was right for once. I stated a few days ago that Hezbollah would start in. They now have begun lobbing rockets in from Lebanon.
 We dont need to start in on each other, we have bigger battles to fight. You are all my friends and I value each opinion. :o It makes us individuals, as God intended. Being able to discuss this as gentlemen separates us from those with the rockets. ;)
all the best
the bb

I think that's enough.  This is a very heated subject to begin with, I don't see a reason to split hairs on something that is NOT important.



wrote on Jan 9^th, 2009 at 10:40am:

We dont need to start in on each other, we have bigger battles to fight.

Right on bb!!

I've been watching this thread with a lot of interest too. A very volatile thread handled quite well. Damn BZZ......your wisdom astounds me at time:
You are all my friends and I value each opinion.  It makes us individuals, as God intended. Being able to discuss this as gentlemen separates us from those with the rockets.
all the best
the bb

A CH salute to you my friend!
[smiley=finger.gif]

Joe

Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire
Source: CNN

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Militants fired six rockets into southern Israel and exchanged gunfire with troops in northern Gaza Sunday, hours after Israel declared a unilateral cease-fire in the Palestinian territory, an Israeli spokesman said.

The Qassam rockets were fired into Sderot at 9 a.m. -- seven hours after Israel's cease-fire went into effect. The rockets did not injure anyone, and Israeli aircrafts destroyed the rocket launcher soon afterward, an Israeli military spokesman said.

The gunfire exchange in northern Gaza occurred after Palestinian gunmen opened fire on Israeli forces, the Israeli military said. Troops returned fire.

Israel launched an offensive in Gaza just over three weeks ago, with the stated intent of stopping the barrage of rockets -- primarily the short-range homemade Qassam rocket -- fired from the territory into southern Israel by Hamas fighters.

At 2 a.m. Sunday, Israel declared a cease-fire in Gaza. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel was prepared to respond if Hamas militants continue fighting in Gaza.

"If foes decide to continue to fight against us, then we will be ready and we shall consider ourselves justified in replying," he said.

Hamas leaders responded, saying they did not consider Olmert's declaration a cease-fire as long as Israeli troops remain in the Palestinian territory.

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--------------------------------------------------------------
TIMELINE-Israeli-Hamas violence since ceasefire ended

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How Hamas treats it's civilians
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i feel for it because im 1/2 israli. 1/4 german 1/4 irish. im a mut. i think thats how i got this disease.
all that killing for nothing. since the begining of time.

ChefChris wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 7:03pm:

i feel for it because im 1/2 israli. 1/4 german 1/4 irish. im a mut. i think thats how i got this disease. all that killing for nothing. since the begining of time.

It's Israeli. You should be able to spell what you say you are.  

          Kinder gentler Potter

ChefChris wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 7:03pm:

i feel for it because im 1/2 israli. 1/4 german 1/4 irish. im a mut. i think thats how i got this disease. all that killing for nothing. since the begining of time.

So, when did your family immigrate from Israel?

deltadarlin wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:21am:

ChefChris wrote on Jan 19th, 2009 at 7:03pm: i feel for it because im 1/2 israli. 1/4 german 1/4 irish. im a mut. i think thats how i got this disease. all that killing for nothing. since the begining of time. So, when did your family immigrate from Israel?

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read it. Seems strange.