So the scare mongering has worked perfectly.  Anybody, please tell me WTF any of this has to do with stimulating the economy.  It's simply a huge spending bill, nothing more.  This is disgraceful.  Where is the outrage?  WRITE YOUR REPRESENTATIVES or YOU will be paying for this BS forever.



The Democrats are about to vote on a "Stimulus" package to bring jobs and welfare to America: Here's how they plan on Stimulating jobs (aka Spend your Tax Dollars)

1. ‘‘Agriculture Buildings and Facilities and Rental Payments’’, $44,000,000

2. ‘‘Buildings and Facilities’’, $209,000,000, for work on deferred maintenance at Agricultural Research Service facilities

3. For an additional amount for ‘‘Salaries and Expenses,’’ $245,000,000, for the purpose of maintaining and modernizing the information technology system

4. For an additional amount for ‘‘Watershed and Flood Prevention Operations’’, $350,000,000 of which $175,000,000 is for necessary expenses to purchase and restore floodplain easements

5. ‘‘Watershed Rehabilitation Program’’, $50,000,000, for necessary expenses to carry out rehabilitation of structural measures:

6. Consolidated Farm and Rural Development Act: $5,838,000,000 for rural community facilities direct loans

7. Housing Act of 1949, to be available from funds in the rural housing insurance fund: $22,129,000,000 for loans

8. For an additional amount for the cost of direct and guaranteed loans, including the cost of modifying loans, as defined in section 502 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974, as follows: section 502 loans, $500,000,000

9. Rural Electrification Act of 1936 (7 U.S.C. 901 et seq.) and for grants: $2,825,000,000

10. Child Nutrition Act of 1966 (42 U.S.C. 1786) :$100,000,000

11. Emergency Food Assistance Act of 1983 (7 U.S.C. 7508(a)(1)), $150,000,000 ($100,000,000 is for the purchase of commodities and of which $50,000,000 is for costs associated with the distribution of commodities.)

12. ‘‘Economic Development Assistance Programs’’, $250,000,000 ‘‘Salaries and Expenses’’ for purposes of program administration and oversight

13. For an additional amount for ‘‘Periodic Censuses and Programs’’: $1,000,000,000:

14. ‘‘Salaries and Expenses’’: $350,000,000

15.

15. For necessary expenses related to the Wireless and Broadband Deployment: $2,825,000,000

16. Costs associated with the Digital-to-Analog Converter Box Program, $650,000,000

17. ‘‘Scientific and Technical Research and Services’’, $100,000,000.

18. ‘‘Industrial Technology Services’’, $100,000,000

19. ‘‘Construction of Research Facilities’’: $300,000,000

20. NOAA: ‘‘Operations, Research and Facilities’’, $400,000,000, for habitat restoration and mitigation activities.

21. ‘‘Procurement, Acquisition and Construction’’, $600,000,000, for accelerating satellite development and acquisition, acquiring climate sensors and climate modeling capacity, and establishing climate data records.

22. ‘‘State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance’’: $3,000,000,000

23. ‘‘Community Oriented Policing Services’’, $1,000,000,000

24. For an additional amount for ‘‘Science’’, $400,000,000, of which not less than $250,000,000 shall be solely for accelerating the development of the tier 1 set of Earth science climate research missions recommended by the National Academies Decadal Survey.

25. National Science Foundation: ‘‘Research and Related Activities’’: $2,500,000,000

26. For expenses, not otherwise provided for, to improve, repair and modernize Department of Defense facilities, restore and modernize Army barracks, and invest in the energy efficiency of Department of Defense facilities: $4,500,000,000

27. Department of the Army: ‘‘Construction’’: $2,000,000,000

28. ‘‘Mississippi River and Tributaries’’, $250,000,000

29. Corp of Engineers: $2,225,000,000

This is just scratching the surface.

They should just double everything on the list.... I mean really Fubar... it sounds to me that if they are going to stick you for the bill it may as well be huge.

Then... when you get the bill in the mail... just file bankruptcy and ask for a bailout... see... wasn't that simple?

with warm regards,
Tony

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 11:33am:

So the scare mongering has worked perfectly.  Anybody, please tell me WTF any of this has to do with stimulating the economy.  It's simply a huge spending bill, nothing more.

It's not merely a spending bill - 30% to 40% of the total dollar amount is tax cuts.

Spending and tax cuts can stimulate the economy. It creates jobs, circulates money, etc.  There is a multiplier effect - each dollar spent on wages and salaries gets spent in restaurants, car dealerships, for rent or mortgages, gasoline, etc.

Is this the most coherent, effective spending/stimulus bill that can be imagined?  Certainly not. It is the product of compromise.  There is no one area that is being given Moonshot or Manhattan Project or Marshall Plan status, as far as I can tell. There are more, smaller projects - partly based on the theory that existing agencies and projects will get the money circulating faster.

And all of this comes at a cost in the future (increasing taxes or inflation or requiring cuts). The question is: how much would the economy contract without such intervention?  Would the credit markets lock-up and return us to a great depression scenario.  You are right, many people are scared of that ... I would argue for a good reason, as that is one possibility.

Monty,

Giving money to people who are not paying the taxes IS NOT A TAX CUT.  It is welfare.  It is government-directed redistribution of income from people who earn it to people who did not earn it.

I know you can't agree with me on that point, because then the whole scam falls apart.

I didn't even mention... $4.2 BILLION for groups like ACORN.  Are you f'g kidding me?  Justify that one, please.  Just try and tell me how that is appropriate.  If congress tried to pass a bill for $4,200,000,000 funding to ACORN, it would surely fail, but now that it's part of our heavenly rescue package, NO PROBLEM!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE WAKE UP.  YOU ARE BEING RAILROADED.

I'm going to count backwards from 10 to 1.  When I reach 1, you will awaken from your hypnotized stupor and call, write SCREAM at your representitives.

10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1

You feel awake and refreshed.  You also feel ANGRY and CHEATED and RIPPED OFF.  CALL, WRITE, FAX, SCREAM YOUR BLOODY HEAD OFF.  STOP THIS MADNESS.

OK now go do it.

If they want "stimulus" they can divide that money up to every taxpayer. That's around a $300,000 check for each taxpayer!

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 12:41pm:

Monty, Giving money to people who are not paying the taxes IS NOT A TAX CUT.  It is welfare.  It is government-directed redistribution of income from people who earn it to people who did not earn it. I know you can't agree with me on that point, because then the whole scam falls apart. ...

No, I can agree with you - taxes are designed to take from some and give to others, directly or indirectly.  Not everyone shares equally in the benefits of government spending (some drive on the roads more than others;  some go public universities, others don't, etc.).  Not everyone shares equally in other government programs (tax cuts or grants) - although I think I will come out better in relative and absolute terms than the poor person who didn't pay taxes and gets a few hundred dollars.

What percent of the total is going to be cash payments to people that make no money and pay no taxes?  I don't think it is that large.  I can understand your moral objections to it, although I don't share them, and don't think it will be a big amount compared to the plan. I have no problem with Pell Grants for people going to college - even if that grant is more than they have paid in taxes in their lifetime. I am looking forward, with the assumption that they might become productive citizens and pay taxes if they can get a higher education. Likewise, the $300 one time payments to the disabled and retired military are not obligations, but they might be good ideas.


Quote:

CASH PAYMENTS Seniors, disabled and veterans: $300 payments to Social Security beneficiaries, and $300 payments under the Supplemental Security income program for elderly and disabled people living in poverty. Veterans receiving disability or pension payments would also receive $300. The cash payments are one-time only. TAXES Individuals: $500-per-worker, $1,000-per-couple tax cut for two years, costing about $142 billion; greater access to the $1,000-per-child tax credit for the working poor; expanding the earned-income tax credit to include families with three children; a $2,500 college tuition tax credit; $7,500 tax credit for middle-income, first-time home buyers who purchase homes in the first half of 2009; temporarily suspends taxation of unemployment benefits. Businesses: An infusion of cash into money-losing companies by allowing them to claim tax credits on past profits dating back five years instead of two; bonus depreciation for businesses investing in new plants and equipment; a doubling of the amount small businesses can write off for capital investments and new equipment purchases. Energy: $31 billion in tax credits to boost renewable energy production and promote energy efficiency, including making it easier for money-losing companies to benefit from energy tax credits. Makes tax credits for energy-efficient homes more generous. SPENDING Aid to the poor and unemployed: $40 billion to provide extended unemployment benefits through Dec. 31, increase them by $25 a week and provide them to part-time and other workers. Health care: $27 billion to subsidize health care insurance for the unemployed and provide coverage through Medicaid; $87 billion to help states with Medicaid. Infrastructure: About $140 billion, including $27 billion for road and bridge construction and repair; $20 billion to repair and renovate school and university buildings; $9 billion for improved access to broadband; and $1.4 billion for western water projects. Education: Almost $100 billion, including $77 billion in grants to states for special education, local school districts, and a $500 increase in the maximum Pell Grant. GOALS Double within three years the amount of energy that could be produced from renewable resources. Upgrade 10,000 schools for about 5 million students. Save $2 billion a year by making federal buildings energy efficient. Triple the number of undergraduate and graduate fellowships in science. Tighten security at 90 ports. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Chris Morrow wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 1:06pm:

If they want "stimulus" they can divide that money up to every taxpayer. That's around a $300,000 check for each taxpayer!

I know that zeros 'mean nothing' but you need to remove a few zeros from that figure.

For tax year 2005, 134,372,678 individual tax returns were filed. Of those filed, 99,880,223 actually had a tax liability and actually paid taxes.

Source(s):
IRS Tax Statistics
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US Department of Labor--Statistics
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So... if you take the first bailout package ($750,000,000,000) and this new package of $850,000,000,000 and divide by the number of REAL taxpayers, you see its about  $16,000 per taxpayer.

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 1:35pm:

So... if you take the first bailout package ($750,000,000,000) and this new package of $850,000,000,000 and divide by the number of REAL taxpayers, you see its about  $16,000 per taxpayer.

That would stimulate my family quite a bit.  Of course, I wouldn't spend it because God knows if we'll have jobs next month. I'd dump it into savings so I wouldn't be stimulating the economy, but oh well.

There was very wide consensus that Hoover never acted fast enough or strongly enough to avert the many "Hoovervilles" created, and when he did, it was much too little, too late.  This is why the first bailout was done so very quickly, of course with the usual posturing and stopping to add fat.  This follow-through of an equal amount is the other heavy foot in the course of action if we ever got a chance to do it again.  The lesson was learned first by the subsequent consequences of doing nothing.


I agree with Monty


Quote:

The question is: how much would the economy contract without such intervention?  Would the credit markets lock-up and return us to a great depression scenario.  You are right, many people are scared of that ... I would argue for a good reason, as that is one possibility.

He's right.  We already know that answer.

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him.

I personally believe Obama won't make it 4 years because of scandal. This maybe wrong becouse the press is so much in love with him.

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Paul

I need a "monitor" bailout cause I wrecked mine smashing that damn bug of Tony's.

The package everybody is so anxious to pass is nothing more than a wet dream for Dems who have been trying to pass these spending bills for a long time.  99% of the line items would NEVER pass muster if they tried to pass them on their own merits.  This has been a carefully orchestrated symphony of scare tactics to get all of you to ignore common sense.

The destination of this locomotive momentum going South right now has very few rugged survivors who lived through the Depression.  Testing today's society to have the same substance for the common sense of apple stands and shoe shine boxes on street corners is in the universe, too.

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 11:33am:

It's simply a huge spending bill, nothing more.

Fu, I understand your aversion to the cost of all this.  If there might be an offhand comparison to give you, all I can think of is this.



Quote:

In 1869 young George Westinghouse filed the first of what eventually became 103 patents pertaining to an invention that would transform train operations: the air brake.  Three years later he introduced an automatic version that historian Alfred Bruce called "a landmark in the history of technology."  Westinghouse's air break demonstrated in fact what seemed absurd in theory: that a large train could be safely and effectively stopped by the use of compressed air.     The most improbable of inventions.  Hardened railroad men laughed at the idea.  "Do you pretend to tell me that you could stop trains with wind?" bellowed Commodore Vanderbilt when approached with the idea.  "I'll give you to understand, young man, that I am too busy to have any time taken up in talking to a damned fool."  But the damned fool persevered and in 1872 added a triple valve that enable every car to have air pressure.  The air brake transformed one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs on a train even though it remained a hard sell because of of the cost in equipping every car.*

A hard sell, very expensive, but there's something about necessity as a mother of invention.  Perhaps maybe we are averting a more difficult and dangerous time.




* The Power Makers  
steam, electricity, and the men who invented modern America.

 

Remember this word, you're going to hear it a LOT in the next few years.

Hyperinflation.

We are so totally screwed.

Kevin_M wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:33pm:

wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 11:33am: It's simply a huge spending bill, nothing more.   Fu, I understand your aversion to the cost of all this.  If there might be an offhand comparison to give you, all I can think of is this. Quote: In 1869 young George Westinghouse filed the first of what eventually became 103 patents pertaining to an invention that would transform train operations: the air brake.  Three years later he introduced an automatic version that historian Alfred Bruce called "a landmark in the history of technology."  Westinghouse's air break demonstrated in fact what seemed absurd in theory: that a large train could be safely and effectively stopped by the use of compressed air.     The most improbable of inventions.  Hardened railroad men laughed at the idea.  "Do you pretend to tell me that you could stop trains with wind?" bellowed Commodore Vanderbilt when approached with the idea.  "I'll give you to understand, young man, that I am too busy to have any time taken up in talking to a damned fool."  But the damned fool persevered and in 1872 added a triple valve that enable every car to have air pressure.  The air brake transformed one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs on a train even though it remained a hard sell because of of the cost in equipping every car.* A hard sell, very expensive, but there's something about necessity as a mother of invention.  Perhaps maybe we are averting a more difficult and dangerous time. * The Power Makers   steam, electricity, and the men who invented modern America.

Kevin,

Respectfully, that is a very flawed comparison.  Our situation would be more like installing wings on those trains.  Expensive, useless, stupid plan that serves NOBODY.

Again I ask... how in the world does $4.2 BILLION for a criminal organization like ACORN help us in any way?  Would that pass any smell test in a rational world?  Of course not, but since the entire bill is north of $800B, it's just a drop in the bucket, so NO BIG DEAL, right?

Almost every line item is similar.  It's all pure BS, and this country has been so throroughly brain-washed that we are lapping it up like morons.  Sorry to be so blunt about it, but this makes me sick to my stomach.

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:42pm:

We are so totally screwed.

Ive been saying that for some time....LOL  :D


wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 11:04pm:

Like I said....We are fucked!!!!!

Quote:

Quote: In 1869 young George Westinghouse filed the first of what eventually became 103 patents pertaining to an invention that would transform train operations: the air brake.  Three years later he introduced an automatic version that historian Alfred Bruce called "a landmark in the history of technology."  Westinghouse's air break demonstrated in fact what seemed absurd in theory: that a large train could be safely and effectively stopped by the use of compressed air.     The most improbable of inventions.  Hardened railroad men laughed at the idea.  "Do you pretend to tell me that you could stop trains with wind?" bellowed Commodore Vanderbilt when approached with the idea.  "I'll give you to understand, young man, that I am too busy to have any time taken up in talking to a damned fool."  But the damned fool persevered and in 1872 added a triple valve that enable every car to have air pressure.  The air brake transformed one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs on a train even though it remained a hard sell because of of the cost in equipping every car.* A hard sell, very expensive, but there's something about necessity as a mother of invention.  Perhaps maybe we are averting a more difficult and dangerous time. * The Power Makers   steam, electricity, and the men who invented modern America.

   Though I could concede this analogy in part for "alternative fuels", or at least a way (our own oil and conservation) to limit imported oil , just spending money to spend money, which I believe this is, will not help. If they want to just spend money, they could look at things to limit the export deficit (raising the value of the dollar while the cost of oil is low may not be a good idea).

Mike

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:55pm:

Our situation would be more like installing wings on those trains.  Expensive, useless, stupid plan that serves NOBODY.

Quote:

"Do you pretend to tell me that you could stop trains with wind?" bellowed Commodore Vanderbilt when approached with the idea.  "I'll give you to understand, young man, that I am too busy to have any time taken up in talking to a damned fool."

The wings were attached getting us here.  

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of crap in government either.  Areas where money spent will be ineffective.  Interests, ya know.   :)

Quote:

So the scare mongering has worked perfectly.

Quote:

We are so totally screwed.

Fubar,
Interesting choice of words in the first and your last post. Just an observation

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:55pm:

Again I ask... how in the world does $4.2 BILLION for a criminal organization like ACORN help us in any way?  Would that pass any smell test in a rational world?  Of course not, but since the entire bill is north of $800B, it's just a drop in the bucket, so NO BIG DEAL, right?

Actually, there is no $4.2 billion line item for Acorn.  There is $4.2 billion for neighborhood stabilization activities, which Boehner and other Republicans have (intentionally or not) misrepresented. That money goes to the states and cities:

HUD’s Neighborhood Stabilization Program was created under the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008 and provides nearly $4 billion to every state and certain local communities experiencing particularly high foreclosure problems and risk of property abandonment. The program permits these state and local governments to purchase foreclosed homes at a discount and to rehabilitate or redevelop them in order to respond to rising foreclosures and falling home values.

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karma wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 6:16pm:

Quote: So the scare mongering has worked perfectly. [quote]We are so totally screwed.

Fubar,
Interesting choice of words in the first and your last post. Just an observation
[/quote]

Obviously I'm talking about the scare mongering creating a situation where we are totally screwed.

But I guess that makes me guilty of scare mongering... can't f'n win for losin'

wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 7:16pm:

can't f'n win for losin'

All we can do is warn them Shawn, once the lube is applied they are on their own!.....LOL  ;D

monty wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 6:38pm:

wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 5:55pm: Again I ask... how in the world does $4.2 BILLION for a criminal organization like ACORN help us in any way?  Would that pass any smell test in a rational world?  Of course not, but since the entire bill is north of $800B, it's just a drop in the bucket, so NO BIG DEAL, right? Actually, there is no $4.2 billion line item for Acorn.  There is $4.2 billion for neighborhood stabilization activities, which Boehner and other Republicans have (intentionally or not) misrepresented. That money goes to the states and cities: HUD’s Neighborhood Stabilization Program was created under the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008 and provides nearly $4 billion to every state and certain local communities experiencing particularly high foreclosure problems and risk of property abandonment. The program permits these state and local governments to purchase foreclosed homes at a discount and to rehabilitate or redevelop them in order to respond to rising foreclosures and falling home values. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Nonsense.  The proposal is to take your Neighborhood Stabilization Program and make those funds available to organizations like ACORN, NOT to use it for the intentions in the original bill.

Scare mongering, really?  

Let's see...

The Case-Shiller 20-city Index indicates housing prices are down 25% from their 2006 peak.  

Housing starts are at an annualized rate of 550,000 - the lowest since they began collecting the data in 1959.  

According to RealtyTrac, 2.3 million homes in the U.S. received foreclosure filings in 2008 - up 81% vs 2007.  That means that one in every 54 homes in the U.S. has received a foreclosure notice.

The number of homes foreclosed was 860,000 - more than the approx 640,000 homes built in the U.S. last year.

4.6 million people are receiving jobless benefits right now (vs 2.7 million this time last year).

Unemployment hit 7.2% (a 26-year high).  Underemployment is at 13.5% as of December.

We've already allocated $7.8 trillion in bailouts, guarantees, and stimulus packages:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Internationally, the IMF is projecting that before this is all over $2.2 trillion of U.S.-origin assets will have to be written down.

So the $820 billion stimulus package?  It's a fart in the wind.

Laurie

Iffy, but don't HOPE that this thing flops.

In any case, it's great politics. The Republicans are screwed. If it works; they all voted against the thing. If it's a real dud.....Democrats and a shitload of Americans can rightly or wrongly blame the GOP for its being too little, too late.

They are stuck for some time. All they can do is be against stuff. That works with Republicans of course but it ain't a way to win back Congress.

Charlie

House passes Obama economic stimulus plan


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Charlie wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:33pm:

In any case, it's great politics. The Republicans are screwed.

Why was Obama trying like all hell to get repubs to sign on?

He could have pushed it through no problem.

Hmmmmmmm! :D

Charlie wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:33pm:

[size=12]Iffy, but don't HOPE that this thing flops. In any case, it's great politics. The Republicans are screwed. ...

I thinks it good strategy by the Republicans. If it works, they wouldn't get credit anyway. If it doesn't work, they were opposed to it.  The economy is in such a state that even if it 'works' it won't be a quick, easy recovery.

monty wrote on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 10:09am:

Charlie wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:33pm: [size=12]Iffy, but don't HOPE that this thing flops. In any case, it's great politics. The Republicans are screwed. ... I thinks it good strategy by the Republicans. If it works, they wouldn't get credit anyway. If it doesn't work, they were opposed to it.  The economy is in such a state that even if it 'works' it won't be a quick, easy recovery.

...and that is exactly what burns my ass about both sides of the aisle..... this is not the time to push politics...

... I only pray to God that someone paid attention to these words.

"However long we are keepers of the public trust we should never forget that we are here as public servants and public service is a privilege. It's not about advantaging yourself. It's not about advancing your friends or your corporate clients. It's not about advancing an ideological agenda or the special interests of any organization. Public service is, simply and absolutely, about advancing the interests of Americans."

Barack Obama

___________________________________

with warm regards,
Tony

There is no trillion dollar bill to put him on.....So....Here we go!

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LMAO  ;D

   Tony, is that a bug? Or a feature?
[smiley=smokin.gif]

Kirk wrote on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 6:08pm:

Tony, is that a bug? Or a feature? [smiley=smokin.gif]

It's a characteristic...  8-)

with warm regards,
Tony

HELLO? >:(

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wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:49pm:

Charlie wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:33pm: In any case, it's great politics. The Republicans are screwed. Why was Obama trying like all hell to get repubs to sign on? He could have pushed it through no problem. Hmmmmmmm! :D

Because it was a bad bill and Obama knows this and he dosen't want all the $shit sticking only to Dems.

For the first time since I can remember the House Republicians closed ranks and voted in unison.

-P.

Paul98 wrote on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 9:24pm:

wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:49pm: Charlie wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:33pm: In any case, it's great politics. The Republicans are screwed. Why was Obama trying like all hell to get repubs to sign on? He could have pushed it through no problem. Hmmmmmmm! :D Because it was a bad bill and Obama knows this and he dosen't want all the $shit sticking only to Dems. For the first time since I can remember the House Republicians closed ranks and voted in unison. -P.

You are correct, Sir!!!! [smiley=bow.gif]

Everybody here sounds like Lou Dobbs.   START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGESTART PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

From what I read, this thing will have little effect in the short run which is what we need. In two years it make just a little sense. It's too late and way too small.

Charlie

You're traveling through another dimension---a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone....and I do mean Twilight.

Hold on folks. It's going to be a long rough ride. Change indeed.

Steve G

I'm widju Steve  8-)

Charlie