Good people of Clusterville,

The so-called stimulation legislation a.k.a. the porkulus bill is about to make social medicine the law of the land and this very important decision was never debated in the House or Senate.  What's happening here goes well beyond political preference...  If you do not want social medicine, you need to take action now!

The president and the liberal majority in the House and Senate want it that way because they think you are too stupid to make that kind of decision.   They also know it would never pass an open debate in congress.  That’s why they've quietly slipped this landmark piece of legislation into a porkulus spending bill we will never be able to afford. They just hoped you wouldn’t notice until it was too late…  

They had to do it this way...  and they've been lying about it all day when cornered on TV...  because this section of the porkulus bill consumes 141 or 18% of the 778 pages of this bill's version prior to conference.  This is a major piece of legislation all on it's own!

Your opportunity to comment has been cleverly sidetracked by the majority leadership in the House and Senate.  Their conferees are meeting now on this bill and they’ve already signaled they intend to have a single bill ready for a vote in the House tomorrow and the Senate on Friday. The only way they can do this is to rubber stamp both the House and Senate versions and that means social medicine will soon become law.

You need to know that not one Republican Senator or Congressman has been allowed in the conference on this bill!  That is nothing less than…  TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

As American citizens you have every right to comment on a law that will affect you and your children for generations to come and to have the opportunity to tell your elected officials how you feel about it.  

Unless you are comfortable having big government between you and your doctors telling them what treatments they are authorized to perform and what medication they may or may not prescribe, you need to take action now!  

You need to call, fax, and or email the White House, your Senators, and Congressmen.  Be polite, clear, and concise, but be firm in your message.  Their phones are manned 7/24 and there are provisions for leaving voice mail.

We only need 3 votes to stop this bill in the Senate.  Senators Spector, Collins, and Snow are likely candidates as they were the only republicans that crossed the isle to vote for this terrible bill.  If you find time call their offices...  their phone lines have been busy all day.

The White House:
Comments: 202-456-1111
FAX: 202-456-2461
E-Mail: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

The contact data for your Senators and Congressmen can be found at:
START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Call the following, as email from residents out of their state will not be read:

Representative Nancy Pelosi (D - 08)  
DC Phone: 202-225-4965  
DC Fax: 202-225-4188        
E-Mail: sf.nancy@mail.house.gov

Senator Harry Reid (D- NV)        
DC Phone: 202-224-3542        
DC Fax: 202-224-7327        
E-Mail: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Senator Arlen Specter (R- PA)        
DC Phone: 202-224-4254        
DC Fax: 202-228-1229

Senator Olympia Snowe (R- ME)        
DC Phone: 202-224-5344        
DC Fax: 202-224-1946

Senator Susan Collins (R- ME)        
DC Phone: 202-224-2523        
DC Fax: 202-224-2693

I realize some of you may not have had the time to digest what’s been happening with the so-called stimulation legislation so I’ve pasted below the first part of the offending section on social medicine cleverly disguised under the title of “Health Information Technology.”  There are too many more examples of offensive waste in this legislation including billions to ACORN so I encourage you to read as much as you need then draw your own conclusions on the worth of this bill.  There are several websites carrying the full text and the House-Senate conferee version should be available later today.

TITLE XIII—HEALTH INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
Subtitle A—Promotion of Health Information Technology
The Porkulus Bill establishes within the Department of Health and Human Services an Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology

“PURPOSE.  The National Coordinator shall perform the duties under subsection (c) in a manner consistent with the development of a nationwide health information technology infrastructure that allows for the electronic use and exchange of information and that:
 (1) ensures that each patient’s health information is secure and protected, in accordance with applicable law;
 (2) improves health care quality, reduces medical errors, and advances the delivery of patient-centered medical care;
 (3) reduces health care costs resulting from inefficiency, medical errors, inappropriate care, duplicative care, and incomplete information;
 (4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;”

Friends, if you do nothing… Social medicine will become the law of the land on Friday.  You’re going to have it even if you didn’t want it.  

I think electronic health records are a good idea but doing this requires careful consideration of a lot of facts and a lot of open debate.  As the legislation reads now, one political party has decided you’re going to have a politician or a political appointee with no medical training telling your doctor how to treat you and that’s if a committee of bureaucrats decide you're worth treating.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

I'm afraid we're no longer headed for a cliff without any brakes, Pete. We have already gone over the edge. I believe our phone calls, e-mails, faxes have no effect anymore.

This is the Amerika that is left to our children, comrade.

Batch wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:

You need to know that not one Republican Senator or Congressman has been allowed in the conference on this bill!  That is nothing less than…  TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! [/size]

Hmmm it looks like it is becoming a one party system which is another way of saying...........

So much for democracy!

-P.

Stand up, all victims of oppression
For the tyrants fear your might
Don't cling so hard to your possessions
For you have nothing, if you have no rights
Let racist ignorance be ended
For respect makes the empires fall
Freedom is merely privilege extended
Unless enjoyed by one and all

Chorus:
So come brothers and sisters
For the struggle carries on
The internationale
Unites the world in song
So comrades come rally
For this is the time and place
The international ideal
Unites the human race

Let no one build walls to divide us
Walls of hatred nor walls of stone
Come greet the dawn and stand beside us
We'll live together or we'll die alone
In our world poisoned by exploitation
Those who have taken, now they must give
And end the vanity of nations
We've but one earth on which to live

And so begins the final drama
In the streets and in the fields
We stand unbowed before their armour
We defy their guns and shields
When we fight, provoked by their aggression
Let us be inspired by like and love
For though they offer us concessions
Change will not come from above    8-)

Charlie

Hey Brew.........with this change, I'm losing hope.

Can someone explain how this Bill is going to stimulate to economy?  I don't understand.  

More hysterical delusions.  The bill is not about socialized medicine; the section you highlighted in red is about medical records - ie, doctors should be able to get a patients records (used to make decisions) in a faster, more reliable way than asking someone to fax or courier a thick file.  It should be instant, not take days, and it should not involve photocopy fees of a dollar a page, as many doctors now charge. The bill does not say that the electronic infrastructure will make the decisions - it says that it will provide the information to doctors so they can make decisions.


Quote:

Clarity on health care provisions in the stimulus bill I've talked to two readers so far this morning who've heard that the stimulus bill contains a comprehensive nationalized health care plan, and they accuse The Star of not having written anything about it. C'mon, folks -- that's just plain wrong, and any pundit trying to scare people with a boogeyman of rationed health care right around the corner is acting in bad faith. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

midwestbeth wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 4:42pm:

Hey Brew.........with this change, I'm losing hope. Can someone explain how this Bill is going to stimulate to economy?  I don't understand.

I hope you're not asking me, Beth. One Congresscritter said there was about $170B worth of actual job creation and stimulus in this bill, yet the cost to us is $800B. Add to that the $700B from late last year, the $1T Mr. Tax Fraud announced yesterday to further nationalize the banking system.

I can't explain it - I guess all I can do is watch as they take away private health care, seize my 401K and my pension, and give it away to someone else. They have bigger guns than I do.

About 40% of the stimulus package is tax cuts - which Republicans have traditionally supported as economic stimulus, or as good in and of itself. That will mean extra money in people's paychecks, which will lead to spending across the country, creating jobs.  

The other spending packages will mean construction of highways, power lines, etc, which will mean companies will hire people to run bulldozers, etc etc.  

Will it work? Is it too much, or not enough?  I don't know. Reagan cut taxes and increased spending (mostly military) - that created jobs and took us out of a recession (and increased national debt).  Not sure if this package which also cuts taxes and increases spending will make up for the popping of the largest asset and debt bubble in history .... tune in later to find out.

This thing is likely to reach the 5 trillion range, maybe more according to what I've heard lately. Some economists are just afraid that we're not ready to get our arms around this thing so it's baby steps........big ones....whew.

In any case, something has to be done so our grandchildren will at least be around to start paying back on the mess we are leaving them. It's horrible but otherwise not clear that they will even be here. Awful but no other rational choice has been put forth. The market has shown us what it can do to us when people without conscience are left completely on their own: 1888.

Charlie

Batch wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 3:57pm:

[size=18]  (4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;”

Everyone that thought it was just fine that Bush was reading your emails and listening to your international phone calls since you had nothing to hide, should have no problem sharing your medical records.

At least it'll be a Dentist checking your medical records to find out he shouldn't put Epi into that shot since you have clusters, or your headache specialist seeing that with your heart problem, he shouldn't be prescribing Imitrex, instead of Dick Cheney reading your letter to Peter in London.

::)

Monty, your numbers are so wrong it's pointless to explain (to you anyway).  Me thinks the kool-aid is spiked.

Giving money to people who don't pay taxes IS NOT A TAX CUT.  It is a TAX INCREASE ON THOSE WHO PAY TAXES, PERIOD.

But there aren't as many of us taxpayers as there used to be, and certainly not enough of us to fend off this attack on our constitution.

The constitution is null and void, apparently.  It is time for a revolution.

I like what Bill Maher said last night to Jay Leno. He said taking over the mess left by the Bush crowd is like being a maid stuck at a hotel that hosted a Led Zepplin concert.

Charlie

midwestbeth wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 4:42pm:

Hey Brew.........with this change, I'm losing hope.

Without having the wherewithall to fully grasp debate of each allocated portion, if there is an inclusion concerning the unemployed, that seems a befitting acknowledgment of maintaining hope, however else it may be deemed.  Consequences being what they are for many, I wouldn't group it into a totally unhelpful regard concerning thoughts on the whole.  





Brew wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 4:48pm:

They have bigger guns than I do.

Reviewing a previous time of large outlays, on the precipice previous to the Marshall Plan, where we laid out HUGE sums of money to other countries for future prosperity, Truman made a speech to Congress March 12, 1947 including this statement: "I believe that it must be the policy of the United States to support free people who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures."

Be it a derived context here, pretty much lays bare a stance on certain options crossing thought.

Quote:

Monty, your numbers are so wrong it's pointless to explain (to you anyway).  Me thinks the kool-aid is spiked.

Fubar, or anybody else
Can you explain it to the rest of us. Seriously, most of what is being said is pure crap from both sides.
Facts man, just the facts.

Karma,

I'm not capable of explaining it in a way that's going to make anybody change their mind.  That would take years of reprogramming, and frankly we don't have years.  Those who buy in to this kind of social engineering through redistribution of wealth, whether it's because they are true socialists or just simple foks who blindly follow the hand that feeds them, don't want to admit they have been duped.  Those who are doing the 'duping' know exactly what they are doing.

-Shawn

wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 5:25pm:

Monty, your numbers are so wrong it's pointless to explain (to you anyway).  Me thinks the kool-aid is spiked.

Actually, some numbers would be nice - here is an article from MarketWatch - do you have anything more current or detailed?

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It seems your still really upset about the earned income credit, where some people who don't pay taxes get a refund. Here is what the Market Watch article says:


Quote:

Expanded earned income tax credit This one sounds great, but it's nothing to shout about when you do the math. Both the House and Senate temporarily increase the earned income tax credit to 45% of the family's first $12,570 of earned income for families with three or more children. They also make this credit available to more people by, generally, raising threshold levels. "The actual dollars in the pocket here will not be huge," Luscombe said. "You get 5% of an additional couple of thousand dollars, so it would be a few hundred bucks if it applies to you." Still, for a lower-income family, that's not bad news.

Compared to the thousands of dollars that taxpaying families get, this credit or grant is small potatoes.  



Quote:

Well, if you're an average working American with no kids in college and not looking to buy a new home or car, the answer is about $1,000 over the next two years. Double that if you're married and you and your spouse work; shrink it to $300 if you are retired or disabled. And get out your calculator if you are unemployed. It's not a lot of money to cheer about, but then again, you set aside $500 for every working American, and the figure for tax relief is going to start around $140 billion right there; the sheer size of the project dictates that getting a few thousand bucks per family would be too much to handle. And anyway, the stimulus bill's main focus is shoring up the economy through job creation and aid to states. See related story on how stimulus will affect your pocketbook in various ways.

So lets talk numbers, Fubar, if you are able. In addition to these personal cuts, there are breaks for millions of people who will be buying a car, house, or education in the next few years. There are tax breaks for companies that carry an inventory, there is protection for middle class families from the AMT.   These tax cuts are a significant part of the stimulus plan -about 40% is the number I heard, although that could have changed  

And your characterization of me as someone who drank the kool aid is ridiculous. Stop jumping up and down about the fundamental injustice of giving a few dollars to the poor or unemployed, who aren't paying taxes. (Oh, yeah, extending unemployment insurance is another component of the plan. Maybe you oppose that because it encourages lazyness?)

Good people,

The smooth-tongued devils on the left say and do anything to achieve their socialist agenda... and social medicine a.k.a. universal health care is right up there with abortion...  They have been lying about this part of the bill all day.  Don't let them get away with it.

You need to understand that Rom Emanuel is working a strategy for comrade president obama that consists of shock and awe with swarm tactics and misdirection.

The obamanoids are attacking every pillar of conservatism en mass in the hopes of shocking the right side of the isle and right minded folks into a defensive posture of confused inaction with no clear priorities on what to defend next.  If you do nothing...  They win.  

I learned a long time ago a well executed offensive is the best defense.  NOW is the time to attack!

The only near-term hope at this point is that the porkulus package will be viewed by enough concerned people as a gross overreach and that they'll take the time to let their Senators and Congressmen how they feel.  We only need three more Senators to vote against this terrible bill.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Reagan was so damn right.
Government doesn't solve problems, they subsidize them.  All they need is your cash.

Monty,

The bill is for $790B.  40% of that would be over $300B.  Please tell me where you see over $300B in tax cuts.  

A tax cut is when your taxes for something (anything) actually go down.  When you get a 'refund' for something you didn't pay, you cannot call that a tax cut.  If someone who didn't pay taxes gets a check, that is welfare, not a tax cut.  The only way to pay for that is to take more taxes from those who pay taxes.  Why is that so hard to understand?  That is, by definition, a tax increase.

But this is not acceptable language, is it?  We have to call it a tax cut or I'm just a mean-hearted conservative whining about having to help the poor people.

Our founding fathers wrote the constitution specifically to prevent this kind of bullshit.

Everybody relax. You know that it's so bad that it will fail and if it does do a little good, you can join New Hampshire and refuse any money coming your way from the commies in Washington.

Charlie

from the market watch article
tax credits:
.....(The House version lets firms use up to 90% of their losses while the Senate version allows for 100% of losses.) ......

Both the House and Senate bills include a new refundable tax credit of up to $500 for working individuals and $1,000 for working families for 2009 and 2010.

Another change proposed in both bills for the next two years makes the Hope credit worth up to $2,500 and good for four years of college costs (instead of the current limit of two).
   
The article has numbers and seems pretty unbiased

This is the kind of stuff I want to see. Nobody should be interested in changing peoples minds but should instead want people to make up there own minds based on facts not Stars Wars type mumbo jumbo.

Charlie wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 6:43pm:

Everybody relax. You know that it's so bad that it will fail and if it does do a little good, you can join New Hampshire and refuse any money coming your way from the commies in Washington. Charlie

Well... Now I love this idea for a quiet revolution. Just refuse to participate in the trickle of cash, Don't cross the bridges, don't travel on the roads, only home-school your children, do not accept any social security. Refuse any and every penny that may flow as a result of this delusional socialist government.

That'll teach 'em.

with warm regards,
Tony

wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 6:20pm:

Monty, The bill is for $790B.  40% of that would be over $300B.  Please tell me where you see over $300B in tax cuts.

The Market Watch article said "It's not a lot of money to cheer about, but then again, you set aside $500 for every working American, and the figure for tax relief is going to start around $140 billion right there;"

Since the proposal is for a 2 year program ($1000 per American, or double the figure), that alone would be $280 billion. Add in the various business taxes and tax breaks for education, home buyers and car purchases, and that is well over $300 Billion.


wrote on Feb 11^th, 2009 at 6:20pm:

A tax cut is when your taxes for something (anything) actually go down.  When you get a 'refund' for something you didn't pay, you cannot call that a tax cut.  If someone who didn't pay taxes gets a check, that is welfare, not a tax cut.  The only way to pay for that is to take more taxes from those who pay taxes.  Why is that so hard to understand?  That is, by definition, a tax increase. But this is not acceptable language, is it?  We have to call it a tax cut or I'm just a mean-hearted conservative whining about having to help the poor people. Our founding fathers wrote the constitution specifically to prevent this kind of bullshit.

No, they didn't.  You are distorting the record on the founding fathers and capitalism to your particular ideas, aspirations and delusions.


Quote:

Jefferson favored a primarily agrarian economy which would employ progressive taxation to prevent growing inequality,.. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Quote:

Jefferson said in a 1785 letter to James Madison, "Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."

He was also open to the idea of government seizing property and dividing it among those who had none.


Quote:

Wherever there is in any country, uncultivated land and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right ... legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The Constitutional Thought of Thomas Jefferson START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

This is very different from so called "Libertarianism" that enshrines the right of private property as ultimate right and the foundation of all goodness. The founding fathers were generally in favor of personal property, initiative, commerce, and industry ... but they understood that things could become unbalanced, and they recognized that government redistribution was sometimes a good idea.  

Even Adam Smith, who wrote the book on capitalism (Wealth of Nations) that "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more in proportion."  and "The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities."

::)

Kindler gentler.

Anyone views change because of this and the other political threads here?

Bueller?

Didn't think so.

From the code of conduct.


Quote:

Debate is welcome (and encouraged), but attack ideas and opinions; not personalities.

I hope to read more opinions and ideas.  Sans personal attacks of course.

These are issues that face us all, and I believe healthy debate helps us all to deal with the realities of thes issues as they effect each of us.

I would say this is a fairly non-partisan thread... at least as non-partisan as this manner of thread can be.  

Kudo's to all...
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Quote:

Obama's signature "Making Work Pay" tax credit for 95 percent of workers, though negotiators agreed to trim the credit to $400 a year instead of $500 -- or $800 for married couples, cut from Obama's original proposal of $1,000. It would begin showing up in most workers' paychecks in June as an extra $13 a week in take-home pay, falling to about $8 a week next January. There is also a $70 billion, one-year fix for the alternative minimum tax. The fix would save some 20 million mainly upper-middle-income taxpayers about $2,000 in taxes for 2009.

$8 a week!!!  I'm rich, I'm rich!!!!!!!


Quote:

States stand to gain help with their budget shortfalls and assure the viability of Medicaid and education programs. Collins said the spending includes about $90 billion in increased federal matches to states to help pay for Medicaid, along with a $54 billion "fiscal stabilization" fund that states could use to build and repair schools and improve facilities at institutions of higher learning. It's still debatable whether the stimulus package will get the economy back on track. Many leading economists have concluded that the stimulus alone may be insufficient to bring a quick turnaround for the economy. Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com, called for a larger package of spending and tax breaks and predicted that unemployment could top 9 percent next year, up from the current 7.6 percent, even if an $800 billion package is enacted. Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman also contends that $800 billion will fall short of filling the gap left by projected reductions in consumer and business spending. Obama has also acknowledged that the stimulus measures are only "one leg of the stool" needed to stabilize the economy. Spending initiatives and tax cuts, he has said, must be combined with the ongoing massive effort to restore confidence and integrity to financial markets, get credit flowing again and right the collapsed housing market. Other highlights of the bill includes: Education: The package has some $11.5 billion to support the IDEA program for special education. There's another $10 billion for a federal program to help low-income students. Energy: The package includes funds to modernize the electrical grid -- in part by incorporating renewable energy resources -- and to make federal buildings more energy efficient and help low-income households weatherize their homes. Health: The plan includes subsidies to allow people who are laid off to purchase health insurance through the federal COBRA plan. There is also money to support hospitals seeking to modernize health information technology. Infrastructure: The infrastructure section of the package includes funds for building and repairing highways and bridges, expanding transit systems, upgrading airports and rail systems and building and repairing federal buildings -- with the focus on making them more energy efficient. Funds are available for clean water projects, cleanup of environmental waste areas and nuclear waste cleanups. Money devoted solely to transportation infrastructure reaches almost $50 billion. Collins said that when all the infrastructure projects for roads, sewers, energy and electricity transmission are added up, it will reach about $150 billion. The package includes money to bring broadband Internet service to under-served areas. Other highlights: The plan also supports National Institutes of Health research and contributes to programs in the departments of defense, homeland security, veterans affairs and state. Some of the tax breaks in the bill include: Obama's signature "Making Work Pay" tax credit for 95 percent of workers, though negotiators agreed to trim the credit to $400 a year instead of $500 -- or $800 for married couples, cut from Obama's original proposal of $1,000. It would begin showing up in most workers' paychecks in June as an extra $13 a week in take-home pay, falling to about $8 a week next January. There is also a $70 billion, one-year fix for the alternative minimum tax. The fix would save some 20 million mainly upper-middle-income taxpayers about $2,000 in taxes for 2009. Infrastructure spending will offer a big boost in job creation according to the Federal Highway Administration, which has estimated that every $1 billion the federal government spends on infrastructure projects translates to 35,000 jobs. Collins put the total infrastructure spending -- including highways, mass transit, environmental cleanups and broadband facilities -- at $150 billion. Do the math and that translates into more than 5 million jobs, based on the highway administration's assumptions. Senate leaders have offered their own estimate -- they said Wednesday that the total stimulus package will sustain some 3.5 million jobs. Lawmakers say most of the projects could be up and running within 90 days, although it could take somewhat more time in northern states with longer winters. Highway construction groups have estimated that there are thousands of projects that could be started within that 90 days.

$90 billion for Medicaid - now there's a job creator!  Must be the Government employees needed to monitor the program!

And a few more of the job makers:

Quote:

The following measures in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act have not been included in this list based on any scale of worthiness but merely on whether they fit the definition given by the president of helping stimulate the economy in the next two years. The provisions were identified by FOX News readers prior to the final conference agreement, which is scheduled for votes in the House and Senate in the next two days Tucked in among the vast construction projects and tax relief programs is an effort to revive a law that's been dead for over 60 years that would provide up to $198 million in pensions for Filipinos who fought alongside the U.S. during WWII. U.S. citizens would get $15,000 a year, but even non-citizens would still get $9,000 a year. The bill also invests heavily in research and technology. NASA is set to receive $450 million for "Science" and another $200 million for "Aeronautics." More than $28 billion is being provided to put kids in special education, Head Start and child care and development programs for disadvantaged children. FOXNews.com readers pored over the package and found a host of expenditures that might not pump money in any time soon. What follows is a list of some of the more fascinating -- if less stimulating -- items in the bill: -- $100 million for the Lead-Based Paint Hazard Control Grant Program -- $200 million to the Leaking Underground Storage Tank Trust Fund Program -- $300 million for "Violence Against Women Prevention and Prosecution Programs" -- $900 million for the IRS for the "Limitation on Administrative Expenses" -- $1 million for the Railroad Retirement Board for administrative costs -- $2 billion for the Drinking Water State Revolving Act -- $50 million for Health and Human Services to carry out injury prevention programs -- $1.1 billion for studies on the effectiveness of different medical treatments -- $200 million to upgrade labs and facilities for the Department of Agriculture "to improve workplace safety and mission-area efficiencies" -- $10 million for urban canal inspection -- $16 billion to pay for student financial aid -- $1 billion to pay for the U.S. Census -- $600 million to pay for a fuel-efficient federal auto fleet -- $650 million for the Digital Converter Box Program to help the constantly delayed transition from analog television -- $485 million to the Forest Service for "hazardous fuels reduction and hazard mitigation activities in areas at high risk of catastrophic wildfire" -- Up to $1 billion for "summer activities" for youths as old as 24 -- $40 million for the occupational research agenda -- $3 billion for the Centers for Disease Control wellness programs and vaccinations -- $410 million for Indian health facilities -- $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstrations

I've said it before, but.......

Take a poll. I believe that you will find that opinions will vary closely with who "has" and who "doesn't have".  It's a sorry state of affairs, but the reality is there.

1) Folks who have managed to earn a strong financial future are unwilling to have it taken away.

2) Folks who don't have a whole lot see a bright light at the end of the tunnel.

If your instinct tells you that I'm wrong, take a close honest look at the posts/posters and I suspect that you will change your mind.

The real pity is that this fact is clearly being played upon by the people we elected and is only making the divide deeper.

Respectfully,

Marc

Edit to add: If you think I'm off base on this tell me how. I've spent a lot of time observing and I believe that I'm correct. Keep in mind that I'm talking about the general population and this board - not a few super-rich people here and there.

Marc,

Currently I would fall into the "have-not" category, but I dobn't intend to stay there, and consequently I STRONGLY oppose this bill.  I have had more than now, although never as much as I wanted ;D, but I have never wnated more than an opportunity to make it.  

Jerry

Jerry,

Same boat.

Just lost a decent paying job and I have no idea what I'm going to do next. BUT...I've earned some decent money on and off over the years so I know that it can be done.  

Bob P wrote on Feb 12^th, 2009 at 3:02pm:

And a few more of the job makers:

So Bob, what would YOU do if given the reigns of power?  

Do you think that the US should honor its promises to Filipino soldiers we enlisted to fight with us ... before they all die?

Do you think that cleaning up underground tanks that are leaking gasoline and dry cleaning solvents into groundwater is a bad thing? Or that the tanks might somehow clean themselves up, with out a need for hiring geologists, engineers, and backhoe operators?

Don't you think a better vaccine for influenza (which kills 20,000 to 50,000 Americans each year) would improve this country (and maybe give us another product to export)? Or that maybe we should do something proactive to prevent another flu pandemic like we had in 1917??

Do you think that student aid isn't needed, and that most students today graduate with too little debt?  Or that we are wasting too much as it is on special ed?

Seems the Republican call to action is limited to opposing and obstructing anything the Democrats propose.  Do you guys even think there is an economic problem, or will the invisible hand of the market make everything ok?  

Priceless: GIVE ME FREE STUFF!!!....LOL  ;D

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$90 billion for Medicaid... that's part of the down payment for Universal Health Care...  that will be offered for free to illegal aliens being paid by the porkulus plan to take jobs away from American citizens.

Quote:

Folks who don't have a whole lot see a bright light at the end of the tunnel.

Under Bush that light at the end of the tunnel was Twentieth Century Limited.

A lot of the "pork" in this bill is an attempt to rectify the mess Bush left when he gutted or underfunded things popular in blue states.

The Medicaid provision however, is the best thing that could happen to the states. New York has been going broke in a big way trying to keep its citizens alive after Bush refused to support health care programs.

Perhaps when business dosen't thave to worry about the absurd costs of health care insurance, they will be inclined to hire or rehire workers because medical insurance won't be a direct cost that gets in the way.

Bring on socialized medicine.

Charlie

Nice try, but it's not going to work.  Liberals have had control of the budget for the last two years and could have fixed Medicare, but the fact is they just don't care about you, me, or Medicare unless it buys them votes to stay in power.  

Pelosi and the politburo would rather give free medical treatment to illegal aliens to buy their votes after they ram amnesty for all of them up our backsides.  

Besides that when they feed our ages into the Universal Health Care computer to determine the most cost effective treatment, all it's going to give us is an overdose of phenobarbital.

This giant pork boondoggle serves to 'stimulate' only select segments as either payback for campaign support or pay-it-forward for a large block of indentured voters. As long as someone has the ability to vote for someone else's earnings to arrive in their breadbasket even a dim lightbulb recognizes that they'll be assured of the recipient's support.

To note: The Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to initiate this proposal for ANY reason no matter how many people will <ahem> benefit from it's birth.

Quote:

... unless it buys them votes to stay in power.

That's why I can't see all the talk about commies, who's going to grasp the political stepladder of vulnerability to this subversion in America, it's not an election year.  Anti-communism is more of a political bludgeon than realistic campaign.  It worked for the Nixon campaign in '46, hey, McCarthy made it in that year, too.  A political, manufactured problem, little concerned about subversion in government.

Recalling the Federal Employees Loyalty and Security Program, civil servants were exposed not on hard evidence but reasonable grounds of disloyalty.  Under suspicion without the chance to confront their accusers or even know the evidence against them.  
 Serving national security?  Several thousand resigned under a cloud, over 200 dismissed, but no one ever indicted, no evidence of espionage ever uncovered -- arbitrary abuses.  Real American fundamental importance.
 The established Temporary Committee on Employee Loyalty's biggest undertaking was denouncing the New Deal as unAmerican and unconstitional.  Yeah, useful also for denouncing reforms.

$100,000 for doorbells in Laurel, MS!

Part and parcel of how out of control our government has become.

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Also,
the entire spending plan at the root here: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

So Bob, what would YOU do if given the reigns of power?  

Do you think that the US should honor its promises to Filipino soldiers we enlisted to fight with us ... before they all die?  Yes, but I would do it as a stand alone bill.

Do you think that cleaning up underground tanks that are leaking gasoline and dry cleaning solvents into groundwater is a bad thing? Or that the tanks might somehow clean themselves up, with out a need for hiring geologists, engineers, and backhoe operators?  I would make the companies that own the tanks do this on their dime or face fines.

Don't you think a better vaccine for influenza (which kills 20,000 to 50,000 Americans each year) would improve this country (and maybe give us another product to export)? Or that maybe we should do something proactive to prevent another flu pandemic like we had in 1917??  I would leave it to the research facilities, drug comapnies to do the R&D.

Do you think that student aid isn't needed, and that most students today graduate with too little debt?  Or that we are wasting too much as it is on special ed?  I would fund student grants & loans in an education bill, not hide it in a stimulus bill.

Seems the Republican call to action is limited to opposing and obstructing anything the Democrats propose.  Do you guys even think there is an economic problem, or will the invisible hand of the market make everything ok?  

[quote author=7A7B6067717D7A72717870140 link=1234385841/39#39 date=1234512178]...

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Nice link.

notseinfeld wrote on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 12:39am:

To note: The Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to initiate this proposal for ANY reason no matter how many people will <ahem> benefit from it's birth.

Nonsense. You should re-read Section 8 of the Constitution:


Quote:

Section 8 - Powers of Congress The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; To establish Post Offices and Post Roads; To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations; To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

The authorization is there, and it is quite broad and vague. Congress has been using that authority since the nation began. It is worth discussing whether the proposals are good or not, but your notion that Congress cannot spend on energy projects, mass transit, or otherwise increase spending to provide for the general welfare of the country is without any foundation.

Bob P wrote on Feb 12^th, 2009 at 3:02pm:

-- $900 million for the IRS for the "Limitation on Administrative Expenses"

[/quote]
Huh?

It's called payback after the last 15 years of GOP control....Gingrich's destruction of civility in D. C. when he blocked everything Clinton and the Democrats proposed if only for the sake of being able to do so. The rest of it, blame Bush again. He blocked everything. Everytime something came up....child health care, being the worst example; it was vetoed or threatened with one.

Payback is definitely a portion of this bill....Republicans would have been worse. Lots of monster shadowy contractors to build torture prisons, too.

Charlie

yaaa....Child  health care. If you are a family of 4 and make up to $62,400 a year, you can get you kids health care paid for. That's just a push towards nationalized health care. I made $32,000 last year and have no kids. Guess whos taxes will be paying for that.

Mike

P.S. Oh ya. All your tobacoo products went up a buttload to help to pay for this also.

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Monte..

If, as has been done time and again, folks put everything under the umbrella of the vague 'general welfare' then what pray tell is the purpose of the Constitution to begin with? If any provision therein can be withered away with someone's notion of what general welfare is then the gov't would be with limitLESS powers.

As for section 8 I agree about infrastructure and those items listed as you presented. However, I think we can agree it's a far cry to call Mississippi doorbells at $100,000 provided by government part of an infrastructure plan. Additionally, there are about a hundred other pork provisions with the same merits in this one, massive bill.

notseinfeld wrote on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 6:58pm:

I think we can agree it's a far cry to call Mississippi doorbells at $100,000 provided by government part of an infrastructure plan. Additionally, there are about a hundred other pork provisions with the same merits in this one, massive bill.

Dont forget the 30 million for field mice in San Fran!

Un-Fucking-believable!!!!! >:(

Washington (PTI): The support for the US President remains strong, with Barack Obama enjoying an approval rating of 67 percent among Americans for the way in which he has handled the government's effort to pass an economic stimulus bill, the latest Gallup poll has said.

Must be the 67% that says things like this:

Bring on socialized medicine.

or like this:

Payback is definately a portion of this bill.

::)

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What a soup sandwich this is.

             Potter

Why I fear the Universal Health Care Computer

You have heard of universal health care, but have you thought about the universal health care computer system?

As you may have noticed in their TV ads, the General Electric (GE) Company is trying to get the job to provide the computer systems for a future government run health-care system by saying that they can provide a more intelligent computer network that can provide better health care at lower cost.

This proposed government health-care computer system would arrange appointments, keep information on the patients, compute which tests and treatment would give the most benefit at lowest cost with a triage process, and then schedule tests and treatments.

The “Terminator” movies are about an artificially intelligent computer system which has self-preservation as its ultimate goal, like the computer named “HAL” in the old movie “2001: A Space Odyssey”.  In these movies, the computers try to stamp out human resistance by intelligent computer control.

Governments are sometimes run by single political parties.  Their primary goal, like with HAL or the computers in the Terminator movies, is self-preservation.

The planned health-care computer system would, of course, be connected to the Social Security database; and thus it would know and could optimize treatment on the basis of how much money the system would be likely to get back in future health-care taxes if the patient lives and, more promptly, in estate taxes if the patient dies.

And finally, such a smart computer system could also connect itself to the voter registration databases and factor the patients’ political party preferences into the health-care triage process, in order to keep the ruling party in power, without the need for actual Terminator robots.

Could be. I'll take a chance though. Canada, Britain and the rest of most civilized countries must have some experience with this? No one there seems to have been locked out a portal so far.

Charlie

Correct Charlie...  Not locked out...  They just die waiting for a prompt.

V/R, Batch

As an American living in Denmark where this type of health care is the norm I have to say that it is not without flaws. However I think that it is good for all people to have health care and here it is free after you pay about 35percent in taxes. The prescriptions I get I have a low copay on. It does have its good points but there are many danes dying waiting for chemotherapy and things like that. I honestly hope that America does the health care thing better than here. But it is nice to know that if you get in an accident or something you can go to the hospital and not have to lose your house to pay for it. And without this type of health care I would be pretty miserable since in America I had no health care and was fighting this on my own with the docs at the free clinic. And I strongly suspect the ones there graduated at the bottom of the class!
No offense to anyone but please look at both sides. OK?
Sophia :)

No offense taken Sophia and I know nothing is perfect.

Because I'm a crabby old fart, I've managed to get lots of help with medical costs. I pay $3 copay for my anti-convulsants. My appointments, that relate to my epilepsy, are also paid for. I've been able to get this arrangement because I knew it could be done and had the time to go after the powers that be. It took 2-1/2 years and seeing a judge to get disability and  for all its flaws it worked for me. The difference here is that most people who need some kind of insurance are not as mean as me and a lot of them just don't know how to go about this kind of thing. Most of the uninsured are in that category. For myself, I have no right to complain. My country has done me well. For the majority of uninsured however, it's not pretty.


Charlie

Sophia,

Thank you for the objective comments.  Reading a post from someone with first hand experience in both private and government systems of medical health care here in the US and Denmark offers a perspective people need to understand.  

The part where you say health care in Denmark is free after you pay 35% tax contrasted with "many Danes dying waiting for chemotherapy and things like that," illustrates a reality of government run health care too many people here in the US choose to ignore.  

It's only human nature to want something of value for free.  However, in reality, there is always a price that must be paid.  If that price is too high, unfairly levied, and it comes at the expense of freedoms lost, then people need to be very critical. That also makes the notion of national health care, it's cost and consequences, something we all need to understand.

Unfortunately, there are hundreds of provisions for national health care contained in the $878 Billion stimulus bill passed earlier this year by a Congress that didn't even bother to read it.  Moreover, that legislation made well over 100 amendments to existing legislation.  Not one of these provisions dealt with medical tort reform or placed a limit on medical law suits.  Nor did they remove any 1000 Federal mandates for coverage that drive the cost of private health insurance out of sight.

When you combine these changes to public law with the hundreds more contained in the over 800 pages of legislation for national health care being drafted by the liberals in Congress, the citizens of the United States are going to be giving up far more than just the estimated $1.2 Trillion dollar cost to tax payers along with a $313 Billion cut in Medicare coverage over the next 10 years for a system that will ration our medical care...  What is even more disturbing is the present leadership in congress and the present administration want to provide this health care to illegal aliens for free...  at your expense...  

If you'll take the time to read these two pieces of legislation, you'll see that too many freedoms are going to be lost when none should be lost at all.
Were is the common sense?

I hope everyone takes a very critical and common sense look at both sides of this issue, then take a look at Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Fixing these three entitlement programs will up the tax towards 100% for generations.  If they come up with the same disturbing conclusions, the only real action is to call, email, and fax members of Congress telling them to stop this insanity or seek employment elsewhere come election time.

Most people live on a budget...  Unfortunately, the leadership in congress and the present administration do not.  They freely overspend our tax dollars effectively saying "They" know better than we do in how to spend our hard earned tax dollars.

As a final note, please recall that Medicare will not cover the cost of oxygen therapy...  As the national health care legislation is patterned after Medicare, guess what will not be covered...

Thanks again for the great comments and take care,

V/R, Batch

Batch,

I am in violent agreement with almost everything you say about ObamaCare, but the Annointed One has made it clear that if we don't do what he says, the whole system is going to collapse.  There's no time for debate, no time to read the proposed changes, and no time to worry about how to pay for it.  So, don't try to stop him from saving us or you are being unpatriotic and selfish.

-Shawn

Shawn,

What I hear you saying is the good idea cut off time has come and gone with respect to fixing health care, but there's no limitation on bad ideas...  Have I got that right?

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Batch,

Almost right.

The time for any ideas from outside of Obama's brain trust have passed. The time for opposing any ideas from Obama's brain trust have passed.

ObamaCare is the only answer now.

Accept it, or you are just being unpatriotic and selfish.

-Shawn

Shawn,

Please tell us who says it is unpatriotic and selfish to protest a rogue Congress that's forgotten who they work for, and that can't do anything but vote itself pay raises and free medical care at the best military medical facilities for life?  

Please tell us why is it unpatriotic and selfish to protest a Congress that can't pass a budget unless it has the single largest deficit in history of the world all because a Marxist trained community organizer wants socialist inspired redistribution of wealth and a single payer government health care bill.  

Why is it selfish to protest the pending National Health Care legislation that will saddle all US tax payers with generational debt, make deep cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, and destroy private health care while it provides free health care to unregistered and illegal aliens who reside in the United States?  

I just heard Obama say peaceful protest is a universal right.  Gotta name please?

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Since 1929, in various forms, some health care assistance has at least been thought about. The Blues and other plans were no-profits at first for the most part and some mostly local plans did well. Today, Wall Street medicine is too big and the criminals....some of them have records...just can't stand the idea of any form of government health care. You know how sweetly we have been treated by insurance companies over the years. Even doctors hate their arbitrary "guidlines." They are the ones that raid your hospital rooms to make sure you aren't staying an extra day. They threaten patients and doctors. One of their goals....and it is a serious one is to make childbirth a one day event and hopefully something not requiring an overnight stay. I kid you not.

These are the sweet and caring insurers of our health care. Oh, I trust them to watch out for us.............

Charlie

As this thread winds, I notice we were urged to write and advise our representitives, one reason singled out being because of additional funds for Medicaid.



Quote:

the spending includes about $90 billion in increased federal matches to states to help pay for Medicaid

Batch wrote on Feb 12^th, 2009 at 8:18pm:

$90 billion for Medicaid... that's part of the down payment for Universal Health Care...

More recently urged to advise them because of cuts to Medicaid.



Batch wrote on Jun 12^th, 2009 at 3:58pm:

June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said. I've got it too and this is BAD NEWS! Please keep sending your cards, letters, faxes, and email to your idiot congressmen who are voting for this piece of crap!  Advise them to seek employment elsewhere come reelection time if not before...

Kevin,

Thank you.  You've made my point in spades...  The porkulus bill Congress didn't bother to read before passing, added $90 Billion for Medicaid as a down payment for Universal Health Care and the new legislation for Universal Health Care will take that $90 Billion away from Medicare and Medicaid along with an additional $223 Billion just to cover the estimated expense of this terrible legislation...  and you already know how exact Obama's estimates have been to date...

Accordingly, please complain to the idiots in Congress for the insane put and take socialist agenda legislation that overspends our tax dollars and takes away more of our freedoms...  

BTW...  Howz yer weight, what's yer cholesterol count, and God forbid you smoke, eat candy, or drink coke?  You see... they want to control your behavior and they want all the tax they can enact from you to do that.

Some folks think the idiots in Congress really care about us...  The dirty little secret is they don't.  If they did, they wouldn't be telling Government Motors to build subcompact golf cart sized cars with 14 times greater fatality rates per million miles than the evil full size cars and SUVs.

As long as you're good at quoting my earlier posts, please recall that in 2006, the death rate for motor vehicle deaths per 100,000 was 15 for a total of 45,000 deaths a year according to NTSA figures...  As the majority of these deaths were accrued by subcompact vehicle drivers and their passengers, that amounts to a potential savings of over $50 Billion a year to Universal Health Care in coverage that doesn't need to be paid along with the additional revenues from the death tax all because some folks were so taken by obama-mania they had to drive Government Motor golf carts...

While you're at it, why else do you think they want to bring back the death tax...  the longer you live... the more you cost Universal Health Care.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

So was that a $90 billion stimulus infusion and


Quote:

a $313 Billion cut in Medicare coverage over the next 10 years

as explained here:


Quote:

$90 Billion for Medicaid as a down payment for Universal Health Care and the new legislation for Universal Health Care will take that $90 Billion away from Medicare and Medicaid along with an additional $223 Billion

for a cutback of $223 billion over ten years?


With the number of baby boomers coming of age for these programs in the next ten years, this would seem problematic.  However, that being hard to say yet without looking at what a health care proposal will be providing also.

It appears now that smiling Joanie McDonalds cannot get that gall bladder taken care of without insurance and can't get insurance for pre-existing conditions, so suffers and takes time off work when needed, to hit emergency where they script her a short-term painkiller. The job is in great jeopardy at a bad time.  Hard working gal too, while trying to get her husband a job at McDonalds, he's looking for work.  Then there's Joanie's child.

How many pleading letters do you think reps have piled on their desk like that to read?

As an American (most of us) family living in Switzerland, where guaranteed social health care (compulsory) insurance is the norm for all citizens.

I have to say that it is not without flaws, probably big flaws. However I think that it is important that all people have the right for health care!

Link:The Swiss Healthcare System (2002) pdf.

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What is the right way? (I don’t know), every country / citizens have to determine what is the right way for its country / citizens…. I like it the way we have it in Switzerland……
but one has to be able to afford it…… and it is not inexpensive……
And it fits the mentality of the Swiss, self responsibility……. and accountability….. which allows the system to work somewhat very good…..

The Swiss system is not with out flaws, it is not with out a very high cost, the pdf. article I have attached to this post is from 2002, and the cost is now way higher..... and it is still going to get even higher.....  limitations to the full coverage are considered..... and probably implemented......
be it in complimentary medicine, alternative medicine, and other limitations.....

I have an opinion about the social health care in the USA and its plausibility, but I don’t live there at the moment, and don’t have to pay for it, so my opinion is somewhat semantic and most likely irrelevant...... and therefore I will avoid posting it (for the moment).....

Michael

Kevin,

You still haven't given us the answer to the question WHO?

The preliminary CBO analysis of Universal Health Care a.k.a. "Kennedy’s Health Care Bill" that came out yesterday indicates it will result in a net increase in Federal deficits by $1 Trillion dollars for 2010 through 2019.  Please go to the following link for the full CBO estimate, download and read:

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If you read it carefully, the "Kennedy Bill"/"Affordable Health Choices Act" will cover 16 million presently uninsured folks for a Trillion Dollars over 10 years so the real expense is going to be much higher under Universal Health Care or the "health care exchange" as Obama now calls it to provide health care to the rest of the uninsured...  

If you do the math, that works out to over $60,000 per person over 10 years ($6,000 a year per person - That's more than three times what Joyce was paying for full coverage under Blue Cross/Blue Shield and if you add in long term care it's still a thousand dollars more a year.) just to get 16 million of the 47 million presently uninsured people covered with health care at our expense...  

What a deal!!!  But, as there's no Tort reform and you'll need start paying for it with increased taxes now so 20 years later... it might be a good deal... then again...  it might not...  That make sense????

BTW, Medicare is already rationing coverage for procedures and medications for some 83 million senior citizens 65 and older...  

I think you'll find the Medicare plan below that's already in process cuts more than 50% in home oxygen therapy coverage for over a million COPD sufferers by 2011, very illuminating... and they still don't cover oxygen therapy as a treatment for cluster headaches...

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What makes you think universal health a.k.a. Obama's "health care exchange" will be any better or that Joanie's gall bladder won't land her in the queue waiting behind all the illegal aliens for a government provided surgeon contracted at McDonald's wages from a 3rd world country?

Finally, you and I both know the only letter that crosses a congressman's desk and prompts any action is one that promises campaign donations or support for a pet earmark...  

However, having said that, when the idiots in Congress realize how pissed the voters are becoming over the horrific costs and loss of freedoms associated with this smelly mess, Obama's health care exchange, as briefed to the AMA yesterday, will go down the drain faster than a turd in Dina's Dumper...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Quote:

how pissed the voters are becoming

It may also be coming to their attention that resistance and inability to change, yielding to the challenge, could have reps on the faster route to job seeking for the next few years.

Batch wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:41am:

... and they still don't cover oxygen therapy as a treatment for cluster headaches...

Are you sure about that?  Here is a link to the Health Alliance policy for oxygen ... it is a privately administered Medicare contractor that does allow for the use of oxygen in cluster headaches.


Quote:

2.2 Non-Continuous oxygen criteria (exercise, sleep, cluster headaches) Note: Oxygen for “stand-by” or “PRN” use is not covered except for cluster headaches. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

It seems the biggest problem is that the doctors have not proclaimed oxygen a "medical necessity" loudly enough or often enough (rare disease, not enough research, etc). Sure, there are articles by respected specialists that state that oxygen should be on the first line of therapy, but that view is not universal.  A 2008 study written up in Medical News Today was titled "Oxygen Therapy Might Ease Pain Of Migraine, Cluster Headaches" (emphasis mine).  That article discusses a meta-analysis by the Cochrane bean-counters who proclaim themselves keepers of the 'evidence based' school of medicine, and they simply don't see enough evidence to make a really firm statement. Unfortunately, the so called 'evidence based' wonks seem to be able to sway opinion in the medical community more than people who actually know about clusters.  

Also, is this particular oxygen issue something that the magical free market has dealt with properly?  I don't think so.  Here's the policy from one Blue Cross organization:


Quote:

Oxygen therapy is considered medically necessary for: ... 2. Cluster headaches when other treatment fails. "START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Sounds like you have to exhaust pretty much every pharmaceutical option before they consider it.

Regardless of who runs the insurance, there will always be rules to authorize some treatments and deny other forms of treatment - all insurance is about rationing.

Charlie wrote on Jun 15^th, 2009 at 7:26pm:

Since 1929, in various forms, some health care assistance has at least been thought about. The Blues and other plans were non-profits at first for the most part and some mostly local plans did well. Today, Wall Street medicine is too big and the criminals that run things the Hospital Corporation Of America....some of them have records...just can't stand the idea of any form of government health care. You know how sweetly we have been treated by insurance companies over the years. Even doctors hate their arbitrary "guidlines." They are the ones that raid your hospital rooms to make sure you aren't staying an extra day. They threaten patients and doctors. One of their goals....and it is a serious one is to make childbirth a one day event and hopefully something not requiring an overnight stay. I kid you not. These are the sweet and caring insurers of our health care. Oh, I trust them to watch out for us............. Charlie

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Charlie

Lawyers. Tort Reform. Never happen. Money. Lobbies.

US citizens footing the bill for pharmaceutical R&D for the rest of the world. Money. Lobbies.

Insurance. Gate keepers. Money. Lobbies.

Medical Industry lowering costs. Money. See above. Lobbies.

Patients. Money machines. No lobbies.

The Government will make it right. Don't worry. It does so many things well.

Steve G

Yup. Almost as effective as unbridled free market health care solutions.

Charlie

Here's Plan A, the one we have:


Quote:

Executives of three of the nation's largest health insurers told federal lawmakers in Washington on Tuesday that they would continue canceling medical coverage for some sick policyholders, despite withering criticism from Republican and Democratic members of Congress who decried the practice as unfair and abusive. The hearing on the controversial action known as rescission, which has left thousands of Americans burdened with costly medical bills despite paying insurance premiums, began a day after President Obama outlined his proposals for revamping the nation's healthcare system. An investigation by the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations showed that health insurers WellPoint Inc., UnitedHealth Group and Assurant Inc. canceled the coverage of more than 20,000 people, allowing the companies to avoid paying more than $300 million in medical claims over a five-year period. It also found that policyholders with breast cancer, lymphoma and more than 1,000 other conditions were targeted for rescission and that employees were praised in performance reviews for terminating the policies of customers with expensive illnesses. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

I guess that's why they call it a 'health' plan - as long as you are healthy, you are welcome to make monthly payments. As soon as you get sick, you are no longer eligible.

I should probably give up and trust health care reform to the insurance companies, drug companies, the AMA, doctors that have big peices of diagnostic and testing businesses, and the GOP.

How can we lose?

Charlie

Charlie,

That's a bit extreme...  Even I wouldn't do that.  What we really need to do is vote for people with common sense that understand living within a budget and that they work for us instead of trying to scare the crap out of us with Obama-Kennedy-Pelosi-Care that will ration what crap is left... and deduct the expense from our social security checks so illegal aliens can have head of the line privileges at the ER when we come in with an infarction.  

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Batch wrote on Jun 18^th, 2009 at 11:19pm:

...  What we really need to do is vote for people with common sense that understand living within a budget and that they work for us instead of trying to scare the crap out of us with Obama-Kennedy-Pelosi-Care that will ration what crap is left

You want it both ways, Batch - you can't control costs and live within a budget without rationing. Rationing means to divide and allocate (look up 'ratio' in a dictionary or math book). Budgeting IS a form of rationing - every month, when I do my family budget, I ration my limited income to various things that I value.  

An oligopoly of private insurance companies is one way for a society to ration a service like medical care.  It results in a system that allocates services so that 50 million Americans can't afford policies (or are denied it outright as they have serious conditions), and these people must depend on emergency rooms that provide limited and expensive coverage... and then the hospital (not the insurance company) writes it off as a loss, passing the costs to other consumers as best they can.

If I outsourced my home budget to a private company that worked like the medical insurance companies, they would take 40% to 50% of every dollar I gave them to overhead and profit ... That would only cut my standard of living in half!!  And that is what is happening with health care today - it is grossly inefficient compared to other countries and compared to Medicare and the VA system, where overhead is typically 2 to 5 percent.  We know that with big ticket items (like the interest rate on a mortgage), a small increase in the usury rate makes a big difference in the payments.  Imagine paying 40% when you go to finance your home! That is the situation we are in - we pay twice what anyone else in the world does for medical care, and have less to show for it.  

But maybe you are right - the risk that we might provide some level of coverage to 10 million illegals trumps the goal of covering 50 million uninsured citizens and legal residents ... common sense tells us that there is absolutely no way to design a system that would only extend benefits to legal residents. Surely if there were a "common sense" compromise on the issue of immigration status and health care, the Republicans would be pushing for that instead of scaring people to block any and all reform!   Oh, never mind, that has been proposed, and the obstructionists don't want to seriously consider it, because even a program that doesn't cover illegals would require compromise and be contrary to the financial interests of the insurance companies.  


Quote:

25 May 2009 Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), chair of the Senate Finance Committee, on Thursday said that he supports "a version" of government-run health insurance but that such a program would not cover undocumented immigrants, the Washington Times reports. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

JohnHerbster wrote on Jun 14^th, 2009 at 3:00pm:

Why I fear the Universal Health Care Computer You have heard of universal health care, but have you thought about the universal health care computer system? ... This proposed government health-care computer system would arrange appointments, keep information on the patients, compute which tests and treatment would give the most benefit at lowest cost with a triage process, and then schedule tests and treatments. The “Terminator” movies are about an artificially intelligent computer system which has self-preservation as its ultimate goal, like the computer named “HAL” in the old movie “2001: A Space Odyssey”.  In these movies, the computers try to stamp out human resistance by intelligent computer control.

Great - science fiction misinformation from a first time poster (or a sock-puppet).  I know that my first post on this site wasn't a crack-inspired rant about a conspiracy theory.

There is no such proposal. No one is talking about the government taking over doctor's offices and micromanaging them.  Even in Canada, Japan, and European countries, doctors are independent business entities that manage their own schedules. The issue in the US is much more limited - it involves reforming insurance company policies and possibly offering an option with a non-profit government plan.  

There has been some talk about standardizing medical record keeping, which would make it easier for doctors and patients to access information. This would not involve a new centralized computer system that would turn on its creators and jettison them into another galaxy (where no one can hear you scream!)  ... it would be a standardized language (maybe an xml dialect) so that each person with a condition (like cluster headaches) would be described in a consistent way.  At present, coding medical records varies greatly from place to place, and it would be possible to reduce errors and improve efficiency if we had one consistent way to represent medical information.

Quote:

trying to scare the crap out of us with Obama-Kennedy-Pelosi-Care that will ration what crap is left

That's always been the big lie Batch. It's what the Republicans have been using for 6 decades to block serious heath care reform. It's pure BS and always has been. What we want is for the insurance companies to finally play ball....zero chance of that without a government option...it's just ain't possible. Only in America, it seems, that it's legal to kill poor people, which includes my elderly neighbors that have the option of death by lack of medical treatment or death from lack of food. After all, they are the slacker consumers not contributing to Wall Street health providers. "Consumers and providers" are what they call patients and doctors there. The health care system is built on making as much loot as possible by insuring only people that have no need for insurance.

I'm sure glad that I'll have my medical records sealed.....What a con; nothing in this country has been a secret for that past 60 years. Even so, somehow, I think I'd rather have my prostate exam open to all those that might get off on seeing it rather than my being in a box 6 feet under trying to preserve the false tenant that our records are in a similar vault to which only we have the combination.

Charlie

Quote:

Furthermore, the CBO estimates that 23 million Americans will lose the insurance they currently have, contrary to Obama's key promise that no one will lose insurance. "[T]he number of people who had coverage through an employer would decline by about 15 million (or roughly 10 percent), and coverage from other sources would fall by about 8 million," the report says. The CBO estimate is so ugly for Democrats, The Hill reports, that "lawmakers are talking about changing the chamber's normal accounting procedures," substituting estimates from the White House Office of Management and Budget for those of the CBO. So much for "transparency."

Yeah, even Obama's doctor is criticizing Obama's plan.  I am not saying it doesn't need scrutiny and some changes ... but he seems to be the only one that is moving things forward. Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.


Quote:

Obama's Doctor Knocks ObamaCare Dr. David Scheiner took care of Obama for 22 years. But they don't see eye-to-eye on how to fix the health care system. ... He's still an enthusiastic Obama supporter, but he worries about whether the health care legislation currently making its way through Congress will actually do any good, particularly for doctors like himself who practice general medicine. "I'm not sure he really understands what we face in primary care," Scheiner says. ... What should the president be focused on? Scheiner thinks that a good health reform would be "Medicare for all," a single-payer system where the government would cover everyone and pay for it by cutting out waste in the system. "A neurosurgeon gets paid $20,000 for cutting into the neck of my patient. Have him get paid $1 million a year instead of $2 million or $3 million. He won't starve," Scheiner says. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

I finally understand what you posted Bob. I was a little slow. It looks like a chunk of employers would opt out of their current insurance coverage for employees and they would have to select another plan.......or better yet be forced onto the government option. What a pity but at least the price would be right.

It's also time to consider just how many people would take advantage of a government option rather than continue having such a big chunk out of personal budgets be spent for iffy services at whim of big insurance firms. These are the firms that use treatment guidelines that are not used for good care but to force patients to accept sometimes dangerous shorter periods of treatment and avoid paying for expensive drugs and long term care. At least....counter to the lie about government rationing....it would not be a factor as it is with of corporate providers.  It wouldn't be all bad.

The goal is to slow down Obama by any means to get the debate as near as possible to off year elections with the idea that it will be easier to use the old scare tactics durning campaigns.

I'll take my chances with Obama rather than rely on the goodness of bloviating radio screechers and all those sweet health care insurers with the mountains of cash supplied by enough lobbyists to populate a medium size city.

Charlie

Quote:

What a pity but at least the price would be right.

?  What did the poster from Europe say, after 35% taxes, everything is free!  Just wjat is the price (without using your own White House budget people to cook the numbers?


Quote:

It's also time to consider just how many people would take advantage of a government option rather than continue having such a big chunk out of personal budgets be spent for iffy services at whim of big insurance firms.

Remember the Government $600 toilet seat?  This ought to be a lot cheaper than private insurance!


Quote:

The goal is to slow down Obama by any means to get the debate as near as possible to off year elections with the idea that it will be easier to use the old scare tactics durning campaigns.

Nope.  Just trying to open the eyes of the Obama sheep.

Bob P wrote on Jun 20^th, 2009 at 7:12am:

?  What did the poster from Europe say, after 35% taxes, everything is free!  Just wjat is the price (without using your own White House budget people to cook the numbers?

Nothing is free, but about 8% of GDP is spent on health care in Europe, Canada and Japan, versus 15-16% in the US.  The fact that people in Sweden pay 35% in taxes is irrelevant - most of that goes to other programs. They pay less for health care ...  We pay twice as much, but outcomes are not nearly twice as good. In many ways, we get less than other countries do, including 50 million uninsured and people that are dropped when they get sick.

Private medical insurance spends 40-60% of every dollar they get in premiums for overhead - versus 3-5% for medicare and the VA.  



Bob P wrote on Jun 20^th, 2009 at 7:12am:

Remember the Government $600 toilet seat?  This ought to be a lot cheaper than private insurance!

Fraud is always an issue - if a doctor submits false claims, they are stealing.  Doesn't matter if the doctor submits the false claims to a private insurance company or a public insurance company ... a few will try regardless.

The $600 toilet seats and hammers were a way to hide covert funding for unapproved military adventures (Iran-Contra, Star Wars, and massively expensive project to raise a sunken Soviet sub).  Should we eliminate the military because these expenditures were clumsily cloaked in the budget?  Or maybe we should publish exactly where every military cent gets spent?

Quote:

We pay twice as much, but outcomes are not nearly twice as good.

Not twice as good, but better. It's the law of diminishing returns.

Say I own Company M. I spend x dollars in an attempt to achieve a 99% service level to my customers. It will generally cost me x times 10 to get from 99% to 100%, which is why I set my service goal at 99% - my customers won't pay ten times as much to get 100% service. 99% is the value point.

Brew wrote on Jun 20^th, 2009 at 2:58pm:

Not twice as good, but better. It's the law of diminishing returns.

Diminishing marginal returns can be very real, but I am not sure they explain differences in health outcomes when comparing the US to other countries.

Half of our insurance dollars go to Blue Cross, Humana, and other insurance companies - for things like advertising, executive salaries, big buildings, and stadium sky boxes.  Not sure that there is any real return on that, much less diminishing returns.

Likewise, Canada pays much less than we do for pharmaceuticals, as they engage in bulk purchasing and competitive bidding for most drugs. Having a fragmented insurance system doesn't allow that, and 'conservatives' in the US passed a law preventing the government from using their purchasing power to negotiate the best price. I guess they want to make sure that government is as inefficient as they say it is!

By many measures, the US is not only spending twice as much, they are getting much less for it.  This enigmatic study never got to a good explanation, but they found clear evidence that spending more didn't result in improved health:  


Quote:

"The U.S. population in late middle age is less healthy than the equivalent British population for diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, myocardial infarction, stroke, lung disease and cancer," conclude the researchers in a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. .... And here's the final insult: We spend much more on medical care -- $5,274 per person in the United States, compared with $2,164 in the United Kingdom. You'd think that extra $3,000 would get us some advantage over our transatlantic cousins.

Quote:

Remember the Government $600 toilet seat?  This ought to be a lot cheaper than private insurance!

Yes I do. It's also true that those $17 aspirins and $150 hospital gowns exist because of corporations and insurers using hospitals as revenue streams and slashing funds for equipment, nurses salaries and simple maintenance, to keep that stream flowing. Hospitals try to make it up any way they can. It's ugly and it's a direct result of our Steven King-like health care system.

Charlie

If captialism is what the last 8 years have been about, I am all for giving communism a try.

Healthcare: Either corporations whotry to make as much money as possible off of sick and dying people or the burocracy and ineptitude of the government is the choice. I call that a horse apiece.

America - the land with the best health care you'll never be able to afford unless your an aristocrat.

Or

America - the land with free shoddy healthcare for everyone.

Some choice. That being said 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing.


Oh yeah, I see someone brought up Canada.  Thanks to our democratic governor WI residents can legally buy drugs from canada. I do it all the time and get the same exact drug by name and lot number as I do from America. Cost is often 1/4th what I pay in America.

So when that lying scumbag Bush stood up as said he was not going to allow people to buy from canada "becasue he cared for americans and didn;t want them to have fake or inferior products" he was lying as usual.

The American health care system is hosed becasue for he last 2 decades lobbists for the industry have been getting the Bushes of the world to let them price fix their way to record profits - all off of sick, tax paying citizens.

Go buy some canada drugs and prove it to yourself.

No disrespect Batch but...
I wouldbe very interested in knowing where you got the info for the initial posting. I haven't found any link that verifies what you posted (not saying it's bogus, but without a link or point of reference, it's hard for me to swallow.

The whole political banter about Obama and all the bad things he is doing or going to do reminds me of the 'satanic panic' of the 80's where everyone was raising awareness of these 'satanic cults' taking over the world. As we later learned, it was all just overhype.

I tend to stay out of political and religious threads as they always get so heated - I can't count how many people in this post alone are 'ex-members.

just my  [smiley=twocents.gif] which isn't worth much here in Canada.

Peace,
Carl D

Quote:

I wouldbe very interested in knowing where you got the info for the initial posting. I haven't found any link that verifies what you posted (not saying it's bogus, but without a link or point of reference, it's hard for me to swallow.

Batch is not alone in quoting things like this Carl. It sounds much like something Matt Drudge or other bloggers use to bring up scare tactics. As has been said about the internet; the worst of it is that people only read what they agree with. At least in newspapers, you occasionally come in contact with dissenting opinion on the same page and sometimes even read it.


Quote:

Oh yeah, I see someone brought up Canada.  Thanks to our democratic governor WI residents can legally buy drugs from canada. I do it all the time and get the same exact drug by name and lot number as I do from America. Cost is often 1/4th what I pay in America.

Wisconsin? I thought that was Pawlenty in Minnesota that didn't get hyper over Canadian drug traffic. Wisconsin does this too? Cool.

Charlie

Carl,

Regarding the source of info in my initial post...  It's Public Law Titled "The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009." Passed by congress without reading and signed by the President without the promised 5 day review period.  You can download the pdf file containing the ARRA as I did from the Government Printing Office (GPO) <gpo.gov>.  Then I did my own analysis...  Sorry Charlie.. no Matt Drudge here...  He didn't take the time to read the porkulus bill either.

I download markup drafts of most of the legislation coming out of the politburo...  If you want to scare the crap out of yourself, do the same...  I've a feeling you'll come to the same conclusions that I have...  Congress is populated with social progressives on the left and idiots on both sides of the isles. The only thing they're good at is running up the National Debt as they sure as hell can't pass a balanced budget!

If you really want to get your bowels in a spastic uproar, consider the following from the WSJ.

Quoting Kimberly Strassel in the Wall Street Journal "Democrats and the Health Tax Taboo":

"Mr. Baucus officially floated his plans for a tax this week, only with a surprising twist: His levy will not apply to union plans, at least for the duration of existing contracts. In other words, Mr. Baucus intends to tax the health-care benefits only of those who didn't spend a fortune electing Democrats to office. Sen. Ted Kennedy, who is circulating his own health-care reform, has also included provisions that will exempt unions from certain provisions.

The union carve-out is designed to allay the fears of many Democrats who remain outright hostile to a tax on health-care benefits, whether out of principle, political fear or union solidarity. Much will depend on the union reaction, which might remain ugly."

This would be outrageous. Republicans We all need to scream about this. The health benefits provided to GM workers by my tax dollars (through "loans" that will never be repaid) would not be taxed, but the benefits provided to me by my employer would be?

Now that's as screwed up as Hogan's goat!  

While we're on the topic of national health care, can anyone give me an example of a US Government run industry that's turned a profit? Better yet, can anyone point to one of the Marxist trained community organizer's plans executed by the politburo or his administration that hasn't made big unions or slip & fall lawyers the beneficiary at our expense?

Take care...  And BOHICA...

V/R, Batch

Quote:

Better yet, can anyone point to one of the Marxist trained community organizer's plans executed by the politburo or his administration that hasn't made big unions or slip & fall lawyers the beneficiary at our expense? Take care...  And BOHICA... V/R, Batch

Not a bad post until........This is straight from the lunatic fringe. It's okay to be conservative.....but......... this isn't conservative.

Charlie

Charlie,

Thanks for the qualified compliment...  You could have pointed to the several State Teachers, Fire, and Police unions who lost up to 90% of their retirement funds during the administration controlled kangaroo bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler when they trashed 233 years of contract law by placing bond holders in these two automakers at the end of the line...  but gave the lion's share to the UAW... after taking a 51% ownership...

"The biggest losers here are GM's bondholders. According the Treasury-GM debt-for-equity swap announced Monday, GM has $27.2 billion in unsecured bonds owned by the public. These are owned by mutual funds, pension funds, hedge funds and retail investors who bought them directly through their brokers. Under Monday's offer, they would exchange their $27.2 billion in bonds for 10% of the stock of the restructured GM. This could amount to less than five cents on the dollar.

The Treasury, which is owed $16.2 billion, would receive 50% of the stock and $8.1 billion in debt -- as much as 87 cents on the dollar. The union's retiree health-care benefit trust would receive half of the $20 billion it is owed in stock, giving it 40% ownership of GM, plus another $10 billion in cash over time. That's worth about 76 cents on the dollar, according to some estimates.

In a genuine Chapter 11 bankruptcy, these three groups of creditors would all be similarly situated -- because all three are, for the most part, unsecured creditors of GM. And yet according to the formula presented Monday, those with the largest claim -- the bondholders -- get the smallest piece of the restructured company by a huge margin." WSJ

Could such an egregious act be consider equitable, or did UAW members make off like bandits all because the UAW paid tens of millions more to the chosen one's election campaign than the other unions?

You decide...

Meanwhile...  If you think the Government Motors CEO, the chosen one and the idiots in the politburo have your best interests at heart when they start cranking out "green" vehicles...  and that GM will operate at a profit...  Think again.

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The hidden truth is neither he nor the politburo really care about you and your well being...  and they have no intention of paying back the taxpayers who will pay for our Government's take-over of GM...   They only care about power and saying in office to spread their agenda...  

If you'd bother to check National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's motor vehicle safety stats, you'll see that compact and subcompact cars have a significantly higher death rate/million miles driven at 160 to 270.  That's far more than the death rates full-size autos and vans.  The collapsible golf cart - coffin on wheels shown above could produce a death rate over 300/million miles driven if folks are foolish enough to drive them like a regular car...  

But then look at the benefits to the government when the death rate from these "green" vehicles skyrockets.  Reduced social security and medicare obligations and increased revenue from death tax...  what a deal.  I'll keep my full size Ford.

Take care... and BOHICA

V/R, Batch

The temptation to label liberals as communists is great to many and of course anyone in power that the far right doesn't like, is always a pinko or worse. Most of this comes from the Dennis Miller edge on the far right that eat "freedom fries."

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Charlie,

You're amazing.  All I'm suggesting is some common sense.  You've got a historical perspective too many lack.  Although slanted a bit more to the left than mine, it's always well worth the time.

Hang in there and thanks.

V/R, Batch

Batch wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 9:11pm:

but gave the lion's share to the UAW... after taking a 51% ownership... GM's bondholders.    ...10% of the stock of the restructured GM. The Treasury,   ....would receive 50% of the stock The union's retiree health-care benefit trust ... 40% ownership of GM,

Hard to follow all these percentages as worded, expressing so much union ownership.  Unless things have changed, the ownership structure reported upon bankruptcy:



Quote:

The plan is for the federal government to take a 60 percent ownership stake in the new GM. The Canadian government would take 12.5 percent, with the United Auto Workers getting a 17.5 percent share and unsecured bondholders receiving 10 percent. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

The union wasn't even the largest creditor.

Kevin,

My wording may have been a bit obtuse... but it appears you took the time to look up the facts...  GOOD ON YOU!!!  

The operative points in my post are government took controlling interest in GM and the UAW received a grossly inequitable share of the stock yielding far more value than to the bond holders...  like the Teacher's, Fireman's, and Police trtirement funds.

Now...  Have you come to any conclusions why the administration lavished the distribution of GM's remaining value so heavily in UAW's favor?  

Do you think it's fair that the other smaller unions got screwed while the UAW made out like bandits?   Is that the American way????

Does it concern you that the administration is trashing the Constitution and that it has abrogated over 230 years of contract law with government controlled bankruptcy of CM and Chrysler???

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Quote:

the facts...  GOOD ON YOU

Understandable correct facts is a start.




Quote:

trashing the Constitution

Article I, section 8:

"uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies."  

[may be passed by Congress]


What these uniform laws have become since the more stabilizing Bankruptcy Act of 1898, amended frequently (30's), and the standing decisions of 1978, had a long history of geographical and party division.  Those seven words of the Constitution initiated the ability to trek through a long and winding road.  In time, things may change again, the words don't seem to have been left behind in the trash.

Kevin,

A well worded response.  

However, as the administration's prearranged bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler were governed by fiat (there's a pun for you) sans congressional action per Article I, section 8, existing contract laws were abrogated... so it appears trashing of the Constitution did take place...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

"What's good for General Motors is good for the USA."

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Charlie

Batch,

Locally printed, an opinion discussed this question.


Quote:

Was it constitutional?

While I wouldn't assume the article satisfies curiosity about an answer, this little part may say a lot.


Quote:

... the temptation to bend the rules of democracy is always greatest in a crisis.

Explaining further with an example I'm familiar with, the Supreme Court once blocked an executive action.  


Quote:

A presidential decision to federalize a vast sector of the U.S. economy affects the country's vital interests and, potentially, the rights of its citizens. Such an extraordinary measure should rest on the firmest possible foundation of democratic legitimacy. Does President Obama's rescue of GM and Chrysler meet the test? The classic statement on such matters comes from Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson's opinion in a case about another crisis-driven assertion of executive power: President Harry Truman's seizure of steel mills in 1952. Truman wanted to prevent a strike during the Korean War; the court blocked him.

The theme seems to be "crisis driven."  

Now, being that I've seemed to accept such an extreme measure as a president's suspension of habeaus corpus (sp) in crisis, the non-errorless but impressively-learning commander-in-chief in Lincoln did it.  There are possibilities where it can be surprising to one's self what is common sense.  

I'm not of an unbiased opinion being from the Motor City area where the state's reaching 14% unemployment, opinion can be regional, with also other sources mentioning government ownership perhaps being temporary to the extent of eighteen months, maybe optimistically.  Survival and crisis are now reaching beyond what I remember in the late 70's and early 80's when unemployment was comparable, the government helped Chrysler at the time with a recovery.

It may be that there is a 60 to 90 day period for legal objections yet.  




The writer's not previously familiar, and within the title, "... barely passes legal test" is of course disputable.  Previously worded above, "the firmest possible foundation of democratic legitimacy" may not have been the case with Lincoln's action either, but there are interfering feelings of "war is war" there, and per Sherman: "War is hell".  


A pre-recovery outlook here balanced against possibly reconstituting the American car industry creates a regional bias of opinion, as if viewing Lincoln's executive undertakings while a Virginian at the time might have.


full article opinion:

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Kevin,

Given yet another scholarly response with understandable bias...  If I hear you right... You are saying its perfectly acceptable for the Administration to trash the Constitution and bypass the required Congressional action as long as the UAW derives the maximum benefit from the bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler at the expense of the other unions...  Teachers, Fire, and Police, and the private investors who put their life savings in GM and Chrysler bonds...  

That sounds like a FUGIGYM to me....

It's funny, but I don't recall anyone doing the same to the Constitution when Boeing tanked in the 70s and that resulted in closed assembly plants and massive layoffs that put the Seattle economy in a tail spin...  There were PhDs driving taxi cabs for years in the Seattle area...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Batch wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 10:42pm:

However, as the administration's prearranged bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler were governed by fiat (there's a pun for you) sans congressional action per Article I, section 8, existing contract laws were abrogated... so it appears trashing of the Constitution did take place... Take care, V/R, Batch

No, there were no violations of existing contract laws or the Constitution - all bankruptcy plans are submitted to a court and are subject to laws passed by Congress. The information for these bankruptcy cases is filed here: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

What happened in these 2 cases is that the federal government offered TARP money (from an authorized Congressional appropriation), and the companies accepted. That gave the government standing in the bankruptcy process, and the car makers were legally bound to submit a restructuring plan meeting certain criteria (they failed to do so).  It is conceivable that GM and Chrysler could have refused the money in the first place, but the outcome would have been less good - probably a total collapse of both companies. The settlement provides for a controlled restructuring where GM and Chrysler have a chance at coming out as smaller, viable manufacturers.  

Monty,

I was wondering when you would rise to take the latest bait…   Welcome back, it’s been a while…  

I think you’ll find a lot of Constitutional scholars who disagree with the way the bankruptcy proceedings came out…  In particular the inequitable awards to the UAW at the expense of the actual bond holders…  We all want to see GM survive but look what’s happened…  GM will go the way of AMTRAK...   And, with idiot political hacks running the company with no experience in the auto industry…  this is going to be a tax liability until the Federal government gets out of GM…  Just watch what they’ll do to Ford…

So…  how’s that “hopey – changey” thing working out for ya?  Did ya have a good time at the ACORN birthday party last week?  

And how about the latest from ACORN…  Did you notice how they’ve changed their name from ACORN to Community Organizers International to the US or (COITUS)… That’s what they’re doing to the US Taxpayers when they end run the legal system and the ballot box with our tax dollars so they can register fraudulent voters…  

I’d think the COITUS folks would jump at the opportunity to learn them Uranium leaders the finer art of community organization...  Chicago style…  I’ll bet that would go over like a pig in a punch bowl.

How about Letterman’s Palin jokes?  Did you get a good laugh?  

Got yer popcorn ready for the ABC, the All Barak Channel infomercial from the White House bully pulpit on Obamacare tonight?

Even the left wing media are reporting there a bunch of Dem’s running around the House and Senate with something warm sliding down their legs over the cost of Obamacare…  

And how about the latest plan from the social progressives to cover a fraction of the real costs by taxing existing employer provided health care benefits, except they’ve cleverly built in a carve out exclusion for unions…  Now that’s real slick political theater and a very transparent first class example of PANDERING FOR VOTES…

But lets not dwell on that stinky bolus just yet…

How about we talk about the really big numbers…  I mean really obscene numbers like the National Debt…  It’s  – $ 11.443 Trillion as of 11:00 EST today.

Then there’s Fiscal Year 2008 (FY08) Federal Budget that shows the U. S. Government spent $412 Billion of your money on interest payments to the holders of the National Debt (Japan and China own a lot).   Interest payments on the National Debt for FY09 looks like they’ll total $550 Billion… and possibly more and the FY 2010 budget will be nothing short of a financial Chernobyl for people who really pay income tax.

By all estimates if the rogue Congress and White House continue at their preset pace, we’ll have a $2 Trillion deficit this year alone and a projection of a continued deficit of $2 Trillion a year for the next 8 years…

And now the idiots in Congress want to saddle us with Obamacare that will increase the National Debt by anywhere from $1 Trillion to $4 Trillion over the next 10 years (depending on which of the 5 versions of “Affordable Health Care” legislation you’re looking at) just to ensure 47 million uninsured [b}residents[/b] of the United States.  And, as pointed out earlier, just so you can wait in line for rationed medical care…

Let’s take a look at how our government takes in revenue… I downloaded the 2008 IRS files…  That year there were 156 million returns filed.  Over 60% (that’s a very conservative number) paid no income tax and 40% of those who filed a federal income tax return paid no income tax but received money from the government.  If you do the math, 63 million folks out of a total population estimated at 307 million paid all the federal income tax in 2008.

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2008 were $2.66 trillion (The actual figures are at lease 35% lower than estimated) from the following sources.

•      $1.25 trillion - Individual income tax
•      $927.2 billion - Social Security and other payroll tax
•      $314.9 billion - Corporate income tax
•      $68.1 billion - Excise tax
•      $29.2 billion - Customs duties
•      $25.7 billion - Estate and gift taxes
•      $50.7 billion - Other

Total Spending for fiscal year 2008 was $2.902 Trillion.

Will Government run medical insurance result in rationing ? Oh yes…  It’s already started for Medicare recipients…  and if you don’t think Obamacare isn’t going to ration your medical care you gotta be smoking them funny cigarettes all the liberal progressives and pot heads want to legalize… The other dirty little secret is very obvious… If you have private medical insurance now…   You are already paying for people without health insurance with increased premiums to cover the expenses created the uninsured.  Another factoid…  80% of the medical expenses we will incur in our life will come after the age of 55…  Old folks cost more…  Just a fact.

Consider this…  Medicare is already rationing oxygen therapy to COPD sufferers…  Medicare estimates they’ll pay out $1.69 Billion to 1.6 million senior citizens currently receiving coverage for home oxygen therapy, but they expect to cut that figure down to $735 Million by 2011 to over 1.8 million senior citizens in need of oxygen therapy.  So what do they do when that happens?  Taking half as many breaths with oxygen supplement is going to be real tough for COPD sufferers.  And yet…  Medicare WILL NOT COVER THE EXPENSE OF MEDICAL OXYGEN AS AN ABORTIVE FOR CLUSTER HEADACHES !!!

Can you hear it coming?  You should…  If you don’t… BOHICA!  Cause here come BIG NEW   TAAAAAAAAXES…  On everyone!

Don’t get me wrong…  We do need reform in medical care, but there are so many ways to do this without the chosen one and the idiots in congress nationalizing yet another industry with no real plan on how to pay for it.

We need a real panel of experts made up of all the stakeholders from each State to address potential legislative solutions to our heath care problems free of polarized political interference… read politicians in general and Congress and the Administration in particular, then send it to the Supreme Court to adjudicate…  

Congress has the power to do this but they do not want to give up the power and control they have over you…  After all, you can’t be trusted to spend your money wisely and “THEY” know better…

Lets take a look at the problems that will make National Health Care a Nightmare as proposed in any of its present instantiations in no less than five different House and Senate committees.  You need to understand that most of these problems were caused by legislation written by special interest groups not necessarily directly related to medical care and big government trying to “fix” other problems they caused years earlier on both sides of the isle.

Medical Tort Reform.  We’ve become a litigious society willing to sue over coffee from McDonald's we spill in our laps thanks to Congress (mostly lawyers) and their failure to pass meaningful tort reform and in particular, medical tort reform.   This is another bi-partisan screw up of GIHUGIC proportions…  You heard the chosen one tell the AMA he was not in favor of medical tort reform…  (That got a lot of groans) That’s simply because he gets more campaign donations from slip and fall lawyers and their heavily financed national associations…  than he does from medical providers and payers.

No Government health care reform will be possible without meaningful medical tort reform…    That should be the first step in the critical path of generating meaningful health care reform…  before there are any further related pieces of legislation passed!  A change in Medical Tort Laws would cost taxpayers nothing in new taxes and may even reduce other insurance costs.

Existing shortage of primary care physicians.  There are not enough primary care physicians today.  Primary care physicians who refuse to compromise quality are either driven out of business or to cash-only concierge practices, further contributing to primary care's decline.

Medical students are not blind to this scenario. They see how heavily the reimbursement deck is stacked against primary care.  Whether they opt to become a specialist or a primary care physician, they graduate with the same $140,000 of medical school debt. The recent numbers show that since 1997, newly graduated U.S. medical students who choose primary care as a career have declined by 50%. This trend results in emergency rooms being overwhelmed with patients without regular doctors.

Furthermore, if the Democrats' universal health care proposals come to fruition, the primary care system will be inundated with at least 45 million newly insured patients.  As Massachusetts is finding out in its pioneering attempt to provide universal coverage, our system is not ready for this burden. Universal coverage is useless without primary care access.

Even the local far left fish wrap here in DC, the Washington Post, ran a front-page article below the fold on the present shortage of primary care physicians. Have you seen any of the Porkulus funding stimulate a response to this shortage?  I think not.

Inequitable taxing of health care insurance costs.  The present employer provided health care benefits are tax-exempt (for the moment).  However, if you work for a small company that can’t compete for institutional medical insurance or you’re self employed, your medical insurance costs are fully taxable.  This is another egregious tax law that’s screwed up as Hogan’s goat that could be fixed at no cost to us in new taxes.

Late payments to Providers Treating patients with Medicare & Medicaid. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) at HHS don’t actually make payments to medical providers.  They use Medicare Administrative Contractors (MAC) selected in low-ball contract solicitations.  Many of these regional MACs are not equipped to handle the volume of claims from medical providers treating Medicare and Medicaid recipients.  Moreover, the prevailing attitude is delay payments rather than pay on time if there are any questions over the Healthcare Common Procedure Coding System (HCPCS) billing codes. These delays are often so long that some providers must take out loans to meet their expenses.  The bureaucratic nature of the way HCPCS billing codes are administered and changed by CMS.  This is another example of Federal Laws and bureaucratic impediments that could be fixed with common sense legislation without the need for increased taxes.

Shortage of physician’s assistants (PA).  We desperately need more PAs. Most states require at least 2 years of college and some health care experience prior to admission to an accredited PA course of study. All States require that PAs complete an accredited, formal education program, usually 2 years in length, and pass a National exam to obtain a license.   Salaries run around $70,000/year.  Have you seen any of the Porkulus funding stimulate a response to this shortage?  I think not.

Enforce Existing Laws and Deport Illegal Aliens. The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, has said that welfare costs for illegal immigrants in LA County were over $37 million in September 2007 and that they had increased $2 million over the previous two months. He also said that 25% of all welfare and food stamp benefits go directly to children of illegal aliens and that the projected annual cost in welfare and food stamps for illegal aliens would be $444 million - including public safety and healthcare, the total cost for illegal immigrants to the County exceeded $1 billion a year - not including the millions of dollars for education.

A RAND study concluded that the total federal cost of providing medical expenses for the 78% illegal immigrants without health insurance coverage was $1.1 billion, with immigrants paying $321 million of health care costs out-of-pocket. The study found that undocumented immigrants tend to visit physicians less frequently than U.S. citizens because they are younger and because people with chronic health problems are less likely to immigrate.  Here is where Congress could fix the “Anchor Baby” problem at no additional tax and save hundreds of millions a year in reduced costs to State and Federal budgets in the process.  That would help reduce our medical insurance premiums.

There are other common sense solution that wouldn’t increase our tax for another massive entitlement.  

The Safeway Plan.  The Safeway plan for medical health insurance is well liked by non-union employees because their premiums are reduced significantly if they demonstrate common sense life-style changes like reduce weight if they are obese, lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol levels, and quit smoking.  This is an excellent model for Medicare Part B and Part C.

Use existing sources of revenue to cover the uninsured.  If the idiots in Congress were really concerned about the health care problems caused by the uninsured, they could take payments accruing from all the Bail-Outs to the financial and auto industries and apply them to a fund to cover the uninsured.  Instead they’ll send that money to COITUS and other unfunded programs on their socialist agenda.  This is another example of how Congress could reform health care without any new tax.

The really big, really obscene problem is like the 900 lb gorilla in the room that neither party will acknowledge…  Medicare and Medicaid.  

Both are broken and so is Social Security.  In 2004, Senior Fellow and Social Security and Medicare Trustee Thomas R. Saving reported that:

• Social Security faces an unfunded liability of $10.4 trillion.
  
• Medicare's unfunded liability is $61.6 trillion - six times greater than Social Security's.
  
• The prescription drug benefit alone faces a funding gap of $16.6 trillion - more than 50 percent greater than Social Security's.
  
• By 2020, the combined deficits in these programs will consume more than one-fourth of all federal income taxes.
  
• By 2030, about the midpoint of the baby boomer retirement years, deficits in the two programs will consume more than half of all federal incomes taxes.
  
• By 2050, when today's college students will reach retirement age, Social Security and Medicare will require more than three- fourths of all income taxes just to pay benefits currently promised.
  

Congress has no plan to pay for these promises, and the budget rules actually hide the total cost from Congress and the voters.  This fact alone should give you a spastic colon and give you cause to seek out candidates with common sense come election time.

Now for any of you who think medical care will be better under communism…  You’ve every right to that opinion.  There are hundreds of thousands of American war fighters who’ve died to preserve your right to say that and millions more that support your rights to say that but disagree vehemently.  I’m one of them…  

Just as you have the right to say you want communist medical care, I have the same right to state my opinion…  and here it is…

Demand a refund on your education and if that doesn’t work get a lawyer and sue the schools.  You either received a very poor public education devoid of any US Government, US and World History, or you had Marxist trained community organizers masquerading as teachers using revisionist texts.   If you’re really serious about wanting communist healthcare…  Try Cuba…  It’s real close.

Finally…  Forget all the numbers being thrown around for a minute and look at the numbers that will affect you, your children, and their children for the rest of their lives.  The questions you should be asking yourself and your congressmen follow.  They’re rhetorical…  so I’ll take the liberty of answering them now:

If I already have private health care insurance, will my premiums for that coverage go up if the present heath care legislation passes?  Yes

Will Congress add more Federal mandates to the existing list of required coverage items that will make my private insurance more costly than government run health care insurance/exchanges? More than likely

If I already have private health care insurance, will my taxes go up to pay for the estimated 47 million uninsured? Yes, for you and for generations to come.

Are there provisions to prevent undocumented and illegal aliens from receiving coverage in the present legislation working its way through Congress? Illegal aliens already qualify for free health care in emergency rooms across the US…  You’ve been paying for them all the way along in higher medical costs…  Moreover, they qualify for Medicaid now and if Obamacare passes, they’ll get amnesty and be made US citizens with the stroke of a pen…  [b] The answer is Yes.

Phone the U.S. Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121.

A switchboard operator will connect you directly with the Representative or Senate office you request.  Ask for some common sense and advise them to seek employment elsewhere come election time if they fail to show any.

My conclusion after doing this research and analysis:

In passing the affordable health care legislation presently metastasizing its way through halls of Congress without taking a common sense approach to fix existing problems first, we will end up with Government run health care looking like the existing Medicare and Medicaid on steroids…  

If you think I’m off the mark… Do your own research and draw your own conclusions…  Then come back and tell us what they are…  


Take care…  and BOHICA!

V/R, Batch

Quote:

Monty, I was wondering when you would rise to take the latest bait…   Welcome back, it’s been a while…

Pardon my unexplained absence ... I've been hiking the Appalachian Trail.


Quote:

I think you’ll find a lot of Constitutional scholars who disagree with the way the bankruptcy proceedings came out…  In particular the inequitable awards to the UAW at the expense of the actual bond holders…

I think the court may find that the UAW has made material concessions over the past decades, and that this is a reason to put them second or third in line when paying creditors (instead of last). Nothing in the US Constitution about that. In fact, I challenge you to show me a complex bankruptcy where all creditors were paid equally - that simply doesn't happen.


Quote:

How about Letterman’s Palin jokes?  Did you get a good laugh?

No, I don't really like Letterman and don't watch his show ... I did read about the jokes and found them to be in poor taste.


Quote:

Did you notice how they’ve changed their name from ACORN to Community Organizers International to the US or (COITUS)…I’d think the COITUS folks would jump at the opportunity to learn them Uranium leaders the finer art of community organization.

Another joke in poor taste.


Quote:

Medicare estimates they’ll pay out $1.69 Billion to 1.6 million senior citizens currently receiving coverage for home oxygen therapy, but they expect to cut that figure down to $735 Million by 2011 to over 1.8 million senior citizens in need of oxygen therapy

Yes, the government is trying to control costs by reducing overpayments. It's not some Obamanific Marxist conspiracy to pull the plug on sick people, it is a bit of stream-lining that was put into motion in 2006, when someone else was president:


Quote:

A 2006 report prepared for CMS calculated that the agency was paying an excessive amount to private companies to supply oxygen equipment and services -- on average about $200 a month per patient. The average cost to purchase an oxygen concentrator was $587 and the equipment required little maintenance, the report concluded. Laurence Wilson, director of CMS's chronic-care policy group, says the agency felt it could reduce payments to suppliers after three years because the oxygen equipment should be fully paid for by that time. After that, suppliers receive minimal payments for occasional follow-up visits and other services. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

So it isn't about denying services to people with a serious disease - it is about paying companies fairly instead of extravagantly. Of course, the oxygen providers are screaming that they will go broke and this means they will stop providing service.  Not likely - the efficient, honest companies won't turn down an opportunity for a larger piece of the pie, even if the % profit is not as high as under the old rules.  People with COPD will continue to get the Oxygen they need.  But keep trying to scare people - it is amusing. The collapse of the GOP is tied to the fact that they rely so heavily on scare tactics ... that sometimes works in the short run, but in the long run, the public catches on.  



Quote:

And yet…  Medicare WILL NOT COVER THE EXPENSE OF MEDICAL OXYGEN AS AN ABORTIVE FOR CLUSTER HEADACHES !!!

Actually, Medicaid already covers it, and Medicare is reviewing their rules. It should be covered.  And let the record show that not all private insurance covers it.  So making political hay on the assumption that government won't provide it while the private sector always will is erroneous.


Quote:

3.2.11.3 Cluster Headaches Medicaid may pay for oxygen for participants with a diagnosis of cluster headaches. Note: Prior approval is required from Medicaid. Include the PA number on the claim. Lab studies are not required. PA requests must have physician orders that demonstrate the following medical necessity criteria: • Other measures, such as Dehydroergotamine and Sumatriptan (Imitrex), have been tried and found to be unsuccessful. • Oxygen therapy must have been proven successful on a trial basis for at least one treatment in the emergency room or in the physician’s office before it can be authorized for home use. If both criteria are met, authorization will be given for a six month period. Documentation of successful use and continued need must be received from the attending physician for subsequent PA. If more than two months elapse without an incidence of a cluster headache, the oxygen authorization will be discontinued until the headaches start again. When billing for oxygen that is necessary to treat cluster headaches: • Bill with a paper claim. • Attach a CMN indicating that the oxygen is for cluster headaches. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

The fact that oxygen is not reimbursed as a first choice is unfortunate, as is the expiration after 2 months remission -  but those are also common conditions for private insurance policies as well - it reflects current medical 'consensus' and not the informed opinion of those specialists who work with clusters every day.


Quote:

If you’re really serious about wanting communist healthcare…  Try Cuba…  It’s real close.

You give great advice, I'm sure, but forgive me for not taking you up on it.  I really prefer the Canadian model of insurance as a starting point, or the Scandinavian model, or the UK model.  I am not interested in communism as a goal, I have no problems with a mixed economy, and think that government should only get involved when the private sector can't or won't do the job right .... and I think that when we look at the medical insurance industry, either they can't or they won't.

Batch wrote on Jun 24^th, 2009 at 12:56pm:

You are saying its perfectly acceptable for the Administration to trash the Constitution and bypass the required Congressional action...

I recall you posting that Lincoln and Truman were your favorite presidents.  Was this not known about them or were you ok with their actions to "trash" the Constitution, one successful, the other not.  Or was this known and yet still they were admired as favorites.  Within this thread, this might seem an important point of evaluation.  When is it ok and when is it not, when other accomplishments make one overlook this "trashing" to favor, and if not so accomplished in one's mind, the overriding rememberance is the "trashing"?  Or a preferencial bias?




Quote:

I don't recall anyone doing the same to the Constitution when Boeing tanked in the 70s and that resulted in closed assembly plants and massive layoffs that put the Seattle economy in a tail spin...

Today there will be many, many, failed companies without government help with degreed talent working at McDonalds.  Was it Lehman (Bear Stearns was in there somewhere) who was allowed to fail yet AIG not?  I'm not privy to the picking and choosing and assessment of crisis potential in the decision-making.  Controversially, the airlines were gov assisted after 9/11.  Previous to that, the unionized employees of United took an ownership portion of that airline in a time of the industy's financial crisis.  

Workers at North American Aviation in 1941 were sided by federal troops to keep them at their stations on the job.  A decision in crisis also, but yet not at war.  Not so American-sounding, yet perhaps a contribution toward freedom later while FDR proposed lending a neighbor a fire hose resulting in England sustaining the good fight.  There are disagreeing factions toward action in crisis.  

Quote:

Will Government run medical insurance result in rationing ?

You're way behind Batch. There is no way the government could hope to match the heartless level of rationing that insurance companies do all day long. The government is not going to ration health care. On the contrary, when insurance companies have competition, rationing by them won't be profitable.

The only thing we have to fear is fear perpetrated by the GOP and insurance company lobbiests. The estimate is that drug companies and the medical providers have six lobbiests for every legislator running around Washington.

Charlie

Monty,

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:      RE: CMS Policy for DME-Oxygen Coverage for Cluster Headache Sufferers
Date:      Wed, 06 May 2009 16:37:17 -0400
From:      Stiller, Jean M. (CMS/OCSQ) <Jean.Stiller@cms.hhs.gov>
To:      Pete Batcheller
CC:      Webster, Susan L. (CMS/CMM) <Susan.Webster@cms.hhs.gov>

Medicare does not cover the home use of oxygen for the treatment of cluster headaches.

Jean Stiller

Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services
7500 Security Blvd,
Baltimore, MD  21244-1850
410-786-0708

Jean is a nice lady.  Giver her a call.  BTW, I've checked with all the DME MACs and they say the same thing...  NO COVERAGE.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

That is correct - MediCARE does not currently reimburse for oxygen for clusters. If I am not mistaken, the VA does, and some MedicAID programs do (it varies from state to state).  And the MediCARE program is likely to change in the near future ... like some private insurers, they have not seen fit to update their policies to reflect recent research.

I think that Medicare can and will ultimately provide oxygen to clusterheads as a medical necessity. And how do you propose fixing this problem:??


Quote:

Furthermore, my experience with O2 Therapy has demonstrated to me beyond a reasonable doubt that it is an effective, non-obtrusive means to abort a cluster. Unfortunately, I, as well as other Cluster Headache sufferers who do not have private medical insurance have a difficult time accessing pure oxygen outside of a trip to an emergency room. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Quote:

Medicare does not cover the home use of oxygen for the treatment of cluster headaches.

So you suppose that I'd have a fighting chance to get Blue Cross, etc. to cover this?

Charlie

Blue Care Network covers my O2 100%. In the Obama healhcare conferience i saw one mention of private insurance. That they are behind the plans talked about. Why? Because they will pay less and will be able to donate more to someones political agenda?

Will we really pay less for better healthcare??? The real problems weren't mentioned. Why does it cost $4,000 for a colonoscopy. Why was it $1,800 for me to go to the E.R, and get a shot of DHE that cost the Hospital $28???? Yes I do know what it cost.

Is it because they don't get enough patients? No. Is it because I have insurance? Is it because they had to pay for someone else?

Why were'nt these issues mentioned?? Maybe because all involved have much more money to support politicians. (ALL politicians in office.)

Excuse me, but I'm an American,  Don

Quote:

Why does it cost $4,000 for a colonoscopy.

Because fee for service larcenous MDs send you for lots of tests to places where they own part of the serivce. They also schedule way too many visits and followups.  I don't let them get away with it.

Here, a colonoscopy is about $2000 but that's way too much as it is. With Medicare, it's $125...also$125 too much.

Bring on the government. I'm doing just fine with them.

Charlie

Don,

Can't you see that Batch, Charlie, and Monty are trying to have a private conversation?

;D

(I'm just messin' with ya)

Bill,

Ya left out Kevin... I've got a 1 vs 3 (Dissimilar) going...   What a hoot...  Some folks might even learn something...  then again...  maybe not...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

My apologies, Pete. Kevin, you too.

(And yes, I'm learning as I watch)

No apologies need be issued from the rhythmic keyboard of the below middle C staff.   ;)    I seem to partake just to mine the shimmer and shine of Charlie stretching his legs in his studio.


Charlie wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 6:38pm:

OOPS. ... No mind though. My stuff is always gold.

I'm still LOL going back to grab this solid gold riff.   :D

Charlie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2009 at 12:26am:

So you suppose that I'd have a fighting chance to get Blue Cross, etc. to cover this? Charlie

Are you in upstate New York?  Here are the BC-BS guidelines for that region:

2.  Cluster headaches when other treatment fails.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Insurance companies (private and government) were denying oxygen PRN (as needed) because they said it was not medically appropriate.  Changes in medical thinking have led to increasing recognition that oxygen is an appropriate treatment for cluster headache, and those policies are starting to change.

monty wrote on Jun 25^th, 2009 at 9:34am:

Insurance companies (private and government) were denying oxygen PRN (as needed) because they said it was not medically appropriate.  Changes in medical thinking have led to increasing recognition that oxygen is an appropriate treatment for cluster headache, and those policies are starting to change.

I suppose rational minds might come to the conclusion that oxygen is a "drug" that would be pretty difficult to abuse.

Unless you're a welder, in which case it might be nice to get the Feds to pay for it.

Imagine that - we buy welder's O2 because it's cheaper, and welder's get medical O2 because it's cheaper. What's wrong with this picture? ;D

Charlie,

Sorry, but Monty is off the mark on Medicare when it comes to a change in the CMS policy on home oxygen therapy any time soon…  There is no coverage for home oxygen therapy under Medicare Part B per my last on this topic.  If you’re paying for an additional health care policy under Part C, and depending on your policy, you may have a chance.  

Medicaid is a different entitlement program all together…  It’s for individuals and families with low incomes.  It’s controlled by the States running on a mix of State and Federal funds.  The funding mix is determined by the federal medical assistance percentage (FMAP) that varies from State to State.  Coverage is means tested and requires prior approval.  I’m working with several folks receiving home oxygen therapy under Medicaid at this time.

We've also been working with House Minority Leader John Boehner and his staff for nearly two years trying to bring pressure on CMS to have Medicare cover the expense of home oxygen therapy for cluster headache sufferers.   It’s been heavy sledding with no real progress…

In our conversations and correspondence with CMS and the DME MAC representatives regarding home oxygen therapy, it's not a matter of updating policy and they're far from being behind.  True, their present guidance is to reduce coverage for compressed oxygen to the maximum extent possible using oxygen concentrators.  However, what Monty missed is there’s also a planned reduction in coverage for oxygen concentrators and portables.  They’re doing this to meet planned cost reductions for all forms of home oxygen therapy...  see the CMS chart below from their 2009 plan:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGESTART PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

If you read the chart carefully you’ll see a reduction in coverage for oxygen concentrators and portables over the 4-year plan...  

What's more disturbing is the dark side of this chart where they accrue the cost savings through a reduction in the actual number of Medicare beneficiaries using home oxygen each year.  

You can read this part of the chart any number of ways, but none bring any comfort…  

The bottom line should be clear…  even to die-hard social progressive liberals if that’s possible…  Plan on even more rationing with government run health care.  The government rations it now.  

If they’re allowed to continue the present plan, by 2013, the CMS will have reduced Medicare coverage on home oxygen therapy for senior citizens suffering from COPD by 97%, (A reduction in home oxygen therapy expenses from $1,698,942,207 in 2009 down to $51,623,840 in 2013).

And…  While all this is happening, the taxpayer funded S-CHIP will provide $9.895 Billion worth of “free” medical insurance in FY 2010 to children… In some cases up to the age of 21 depending on the State…  (See (H.R. 2) entitled ‘‘An Act to amend title XXI of the Social Security Act to extend and improve the Children’s Health Insurance Program, and for other purposes.’’ - January 29, 2009)

Want to guess how many of these children are illegal alien anchor babies???

I found an estimate that’s as good as any…  Using the March 2005 Current Population Survey, the Pew Hispanic Center estimated in 2006, there were 3 million U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants in the U.S.

The way I see it, the social progressive liberals in Congress don’t really care about us old folks...  and they never did.  

It also appears the CMS cost reduction plan for home oxygen therapy reflects the handy work of tax cheat Tom Daschle who said, “health-care reform will not be pain free.”  “Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.” That means we…  the elderly, will bear the brunt.  This must be terribly frightening to COPD sufferers…

The dirty little secret is the liberals would rather pander to children and parents of low income families as potential voters using the taxpayer’s money for S-CHIP rather than on the old folks… “hoping of course, ” the parents of these children will vote the liberal ticket…  and...  when these children reach voting age, they'll do the same...

Unfortunately the idiots on the right side of the isle haven’t been able to stop this egregiousness…

Take care…   and BOHICA,

V/R, Bach

Quote:

There is no coverage for home oxygen therapy under Medicare Part B per my last on this topic.

Medicare part B has more to do with insuring drug companies from having to make reasonable deals with Medicare. Bush's little excursion into drug coverage is sweet. The bill specifically prevents Medicare from negotiating prices. It caused more harm than good and I've seen the bizarre mess created.

While not true that government will ration, it would never come close to the current rationing by insurers of doctors, hospitals, clinics and tens of thousands of patients which prevent them from getting the health care necessary unless they don't eat or forego utilities.........or get out of the way by dying so only those that don't need insurance can keep corporate insurers happy.

Charlie

Batch wrote on Jun 25^th, 2009 at 11:50am:

You can read this part of the chart any number of ways, but none bring any comfort…

Batch,

you have consistently been a hysterical hyper-partisan figure, and your (mis) interpretation of the graph above is consistent with that.

It is impossible to find any credible sources that agree with your analysis of the table ... business journals say there may be minor disruptions in coverage as the rules change and there are changes in the provider landscape ... but in my experience with a relative on a respirator provided by non-medicare insurance, I can tell you that they have had their service provider changed and have seen such disruptions from non-government insurance decisions.

No one except you, Batch,  is warning that 1/2 or 2/3 of people getting oxygen from Medicare will be cut off.  Because it isn't going to happen.

These 2009 changes to medicare oxygen are the result of a 2005 bill (Republican President/Republican Senate/Republican House) that decided it made no sense to pay $7000 in rental fees over 3 years for a device that can be bought for $600.  And I agree!  By trimming those type of excessive markups, it is possible to reduce costs by 50% or more without reducing the number of people covered or the quality of service.  It may mean fewer vacations and smaller boats for the corporados that make their money from overcharging Medicare, but so what??  


Quote:

If you read the chart carefully you’ll see a reduction in coverage for oxygen concentrators and portables over the 4-year plan...

No, what we see is a reduction in spending. This graph shows the phase-in of a 3 year/5 year cycle of funding for people with various oxygen equipment ... medicare insurance is reducing payments for the first 3 years, years 4 and 5, the devices are considered 'paid for' and no rental fees are paid (only service/maintainence) and after 5 years, the device is considered essentially obsolete, and a patient is eligble for a new device and restarting the cycle.

Quote:

One Congresscritter

I like that one Brew.
Of the government,by the government, and for the government.
Self serving idiots all of them. [smiley=deal2.gif] [smiley=deal2.gif]
the bb

Monty,

How predictable…  Let’s go over your responses with the Huffington Social-Progressive Liberal Check List of Politically Correct Phraseology and Tactics.

Cherry Pick questions                          – Yes
Nit Pick questions                                – Yes
Avoid the question                               – Yes
Obfuscation                                         – Yes
Ad-hominem attacks                            – Yes
Change topic to inconsequential            – Yes
Argue points irrelevant to topic             – Yes
Camouflage confessions as accusations – Yes

Problems solved only by Liberals in Congress spending lotsa our money – You Bet

"No amount of money, influence, persuasion or words can possibly paint Elitist Left-wing Social-Progressive Liberals in a worse light than they gladly portray themselves!"
                                                ~ Keith Martin

Most folks will see there’s no hysterical hyper-partisan figure here…  only a person with common sense, a love for our great Nation, and a clear recognition of how social progressive liberals think and react.  We've got their play-book...  Trix are for kids!

Take care.  And Monty.. I’m really glad you thought Letterman’s Palin jokes were in poor taste.  We can agree on that.

V/R, Batch

The right wing could use some elitism. The Sarah Palins have only so much appeal.

When it comes to obfuscation, the Democrat's attempt at it pales to insignificance when compared to the GOP.

Charlie

Monty,

Nice try.  I posted the latest CMS policy on DME-Oxygen earlier in "How to Obtain a Prescription for Oxygen Therapy."  That post included the fact that after 5 years the home oxygen providers will will go out and buy new oxygen concentrators... and the payments go back up for the next 3 years - per public law under 144(b) of the Medicare Improvements for Patients and Providers Act of 2008 and CMS-1403-FC.

What you've cleverly avoided with this truth, is the reduction in Medicare beneficiaries receiving DME-Oxygen over the 5 year period as illustrated in the chart...

Can you explain how this is possible when there is no cure for most COPD and the chart clearly shows a percent reduction in beneficiaries each year?  (Do they die waiting for oxygen?)

Moreover, there's no accounting for the number of baby boomers turning 65 that would clearly raise the number of senior citizens requiring home oxygen therapy.

Common sense would say these numbers don't add up even if you account for cost efficiencies associated with oxygen concentrators...   That leads to an obvious conclusion based on the following:  If CMS intends to budget less for home oxygen therapy and the number of beneficiaries requiring that therapy is going to increase, Then the available coverage for home oxygen therapy per beneficiary decreases...  

I realize a lot of folks are into obamamath, but that sure sounds like rationing to me.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

As an Independent, I hope to try to explain how I perceive the dialog I am witness to, both here and out in the hinterland.

While I wish there were more than what appears to be two camps, the lines seem to be etched in rock and only time (and with that ,wisdom) can allow a lowering of our guarded positions and lead to mutual understanding and a good common direction.

As it currently stands, we may need a bucket of "oh shit" tossed on both camps to shake us loose of our ideological shackles. And from what knowledge I've been accumulating an "oh shit" may, and I say may, be just what we are facing.

Historically speaking, we Humans, (mostly the Northern Hemisphere), have carved out an unmatched progression from a difficult and forgotten way of life where hard work has been replaced by machines. Think a measly hundred years ago.

These machines have not only allowed us all of the comforts we exist within but have allowed us to produce enormous amounts of food, drive and fly, and...well, everything we currently take for granted. This has been "allowed" by the inexpensive stored energy in crude oil and natural gas. No contest...right?

Again, historically speaking, and on the heals of cross continental railroads, a well thought plan for the creation of large lending institutions, and the centralization of money in the hands of a few and after the Depression, leading to the ultimate master...the creation of the Federal Reserve. This leaves us to pay the interest in the form of newly instituted taxes. Very nice...yes?

Corporations, small businesses, manufacturing, the building of infrastructure, all moving forward creating (by design) a consumer society hell bent on buying all of the varied necessities of what is gleefully portrayed during the commercials on Gunsmoke, Bonanza and all of the other popular shows. And as "The Great One" use to say..., "and away we go".  

Now, locked into jobs to pay for all of these necessities, borrowing money to pay our mortgages, we happily move upward all the while paying interest and taxes to the sponsor of this most grand scheme.

Now here we sit..witness to corruption, resource depletion, political discourse and the big one...greed.  We all play our part. The "Government" folks has us just where they want us. I'm not sure of the rules of war but I suspect "divide and conquer is right up there at the top. Democrats and Republicans...How nice is that?

If you believe that the Planet can continue to provide the type of energy that we built our modern society upon, to continue consuming at our current rate, to feed a population increase witnessed in the referenced past hundred years on the inexpensive energy in oil you are short sighted. Nature has a way of sorting out the winners and losers and if we continue to discount the signs we will be not unlike a animal population that has had its predators killed off. Nature will ultimately rule in her own indiscriminate way.

Do I think the current administration is headed in the "appropriate" direction? I don't really know. We do not have a forth rail any longer. That's bad. Are we hearing the truth? See above. You want a revolution? Vote the career politicians out as soon as possible.

Let's ask them for a grand vision. A way to become free of the business as usual and on to a comprehensive direction to a sustainable future. A "No Regrets Policy" that looks forward to the future of our children and the promise that that they will indeed have a better future. If we don't reach a common understanding I fear this concept in danger.

Respectfully,
Steve G

You're right Steve. We need another Theodore Roosevelt and another progressive movement.

Progressive legislation stagnated for the last 20 years as our politicians are terrified to lose out on all that nice money spent to blunt any attempts at progressive ideas. With Republicans, progressive legislation and even ideas are considered toxic. Democrats are far from perfect but with them things don't get worse.

Joe Six Packs benefit far more from progressives than conservatives.

Charlie

Steve, that was a pretty awesome post and I agree 100%!

I think the following sums it up nicely...

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the
wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working
for, another person must work for without receiving. The government
cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first
take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that
they do not have to work because the other half is going to take
care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no
good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

Dr. Adrian Rogers

Take care... and BOHICA

I have a theory that as societies get bigger and bigger the less likely pure individualism will succeed. If true, it's a shame. We are becoming more like the rest of western societies and we don't take to it well.

Charlie

Batch,

You insist on trying to scare people with a distorted picture of the new policies - you really should be ashamed of yourself.  But of course, you are hysterical and delusional when it comes to certain hot button topics - it is probably unfair of me to expect you to engage in a rational, non-partisan discussion. But for the sake of others, I'll try.


Quote:

Can you explain how this is possible when there is no cure for most COPD and the chart clearly shows a percent reduction in beneficiaries each year?  (Do they die waiting for oxygen?)

Well, the financial model could include a decrease that approximates the predicted death of people with COPD - but no one else is talking about masses of people dying from being denied oxygen, and you are irresponsible to do so.  The big reduction in 'beneficiaries' or people getting payments is due to the fact that in the first year, all those who have had a machine for 3 or 4 years will not be paid for - as far as medicare is concerned, the device has been paid for.


Quote:

What you've cleverly avoided with this truth, is the reduction in Medicare beneficiaries receiving DME-Oxygen over the 5 year period as illustrated in the chart...

No, it isn't just oxygen concentrators that get put on lower payments and for only 3 years, it is all oxygen equipment.  The suppliers are being held responsible for providing service after they have collected nice profits for 3 years.


Quote:

In the case of all oxygen equipment furnished after the 36-month rental cap, the supplier is responsible for performing any repairs or maintenance and servicing of the equipment that is necessary to ensure that the equipment is in good working order for the remainder of the reasonable useful lifetime of the equipment. The 36-month cap applies to stationary and portable oxygen equipment furnished on or after January 1, 2006; therefore, the 36-month cap may end as early as January 1, 2009, for beneficiaries using oxygen equipment on a continuous basis since January 1, 2006 START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE To be honest, these rules are thick and convoluted. I can't say for sure that some of the changes won't result in some inconvenience or increased copays for individuals - I am not going to trace each and every possible effect. But it is clear that your interpretation is not in agreement with reality. [quote]Despite enormous buying power, Medicare pays far more. Rather than buy oxygen equipment outright, Medicare rents it for 36 months before patients take ownership, and pays for a variety of services that critics say are often unnecessary. The total cost to taxpayers and patients is as much as $8,280, or more than double what somebody might spend at a drugstore. The high expense of oxygen equipment — which cost Medicare over $1.8 billion last year — is hardly an anomaly. For example, last year Medicare spent more than $21 million on pumps to help older and disabled men attain erections, paying about $450 for the same device that is available online for as little as $108. These widespread price discrepancies, including those for oxygen services, have been noted in dozens of regulatory reports. But when officials and politicians have tried to cut these costs, they have often encountered a powerful foe: the companies that sell these devices, who ask their elderly customers to serve, in effect, as unpaid lobbyists, calling and writing to their representatives in Congress, protesting at rallies, and even participating in political attacks against individual lawmakers who take on the issue. “These industries rely on a basic threat: If you mess with us, we can turn the seniors against you,” said former Senator Alan K. Simpson, Republican of Wyoming, who tried cutting Medicare payments while he was in Congress. “Angering seniors is the quickest route to political suicide.” START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

I suggest that you are being a tool, Batch, and your purpose is not provide a better system, but to protect the excess profits of the companies and keep overcharging the US taxpayer.

I'm a bit of a Outer Space fanatic. I have saved the local news papers from the Apollo tune up and the ultimate goal... the Moon landing. You would not believe the price of consumables in the Ads.

I don't believe in visitors from another world because I am slowly getting a grip of the distances. It's truly incredible. I believe it to be so by deliberate intention. I mean, why so much space?

Still I wonder, that if we were visited and observations were written down, what would they write of us today? What would they write a hundred years from now when they revisited us, wanting to see if what they wrote turned out right.

Should you want to have things remain the same or if you want to see, and demand it be different, and have an HONEST dialog, than we all have to change.

Damn it, how much legislation is proposed with shit all over it stinking of political ideology, gamesmanship and, the ultimate insult...effective lobbying results? They are all bought and paid for. Isn't that the truth?
Look at your current Representative or Senator. Tell me what you see?

I'd much prefer we prove those aliens wrong.

I'd prefer to have them say, "We were wrong. These Freaks of the Universe got their shit together and figured out how to survive."

They might then show us some really good stuff.

Steve G

Then again maybe Congress or the New York State Senate would be the greatest thing to them since sliced bread. Sorry for those of you not familiar with the Felini-like goings on up here. They may think it's funniest thing ever and I mean funny, not something that makes one sad....I wouldn't have it any other way. :o 8-)

Chicago politics has nothing on Albany, NY in 2009.    :o

Charlie