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Message started by Brew on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:06pm

Title: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:06pm
During the stimulus bill signing ceremony today, Obama said the following:


Quote:
I don't want to pretend that today marks the end of our economic problems. Nor does it constitute all of what we have to do to turn our economy around. But today does mark the beginning of the end, the beginning of what we need to do to create jobs for Americans scrambling in the wake of layoffs.


Here's the video link:

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The way he says it just sounds ominous to me.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:48pm
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Spend away Government. It seems it's all you know how to do.

Steve G

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:48pm
No. Not ominous at all.   :)

I think you have to believe it to see it (or hear it).  

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:50pm
Haven't been stimulated lately. No......not there!

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:52pm
It's not that I think it is a great bill, or that government action alone can magically solve everything.  It is a dose of medicine that may help with the economic flu, may have some side effects, ... and like most cold and flu medicines, it is hard to say what would have happened if it had not been taken.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:52pm
Yeah, dude.
I totally hear you.

And why the hell would Obama personally inspect the solar panels on the roof?  Wouldn't it be better to have some sort of expert in PV cells or power generation inspect the panels?

Just a friggin photo op.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:59pm

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:52pm:
And why the hell would Obama personally inspect the solar panels on the roof?  Wouldn't it be better to have some sort of expert in PV cells or power generation inspect the panels?


Hell no!, Not when he can get gang bangers to do it!....LMAO  ;D

President Barack Obama has made the production of renewable energy one of the pillars of job creation. All sorts of people are now rushing to acquire skills to launch careers in the budding sector.

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I would watch out for the women folk if I were these people.....LMMFAO!!!! [smiley=crackup.gif]

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:00pm

monty wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:52pm:
It's not that I think it is a great bill, or that government action alone can magically solve everything.  It is a dose of medicine that may help with the economic flu, may have some side effects, ... and like most cold and flu medicines, it is hard to say what would have happened if it had not been taken.

I guess time will tell. Wall Street sure didn't seem to like it today.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by catlind on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:01pm
Dumb question - but what about thoseof us who have overextended ourselves in the credit market taking responsibility and drastically cutting spending and losing the instant gratification stigma and busting our butts to eliminate the extraneous debt we have accumulated and begin living below our means to pay of our creditors and being to save money and go back to basics?

Am I really that naive?

Cat

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:02pm

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:52pm:
And why the hell would Obama personally inspect the solar panels on the roof?  Wouldn't it be better to have some sort of expert in PV cells or power generation inspect the panels?

What are you trying to do? Rain on his parade? This is the first trip he's gotten to take on Air Force One.

Buzz Kill.  ;D

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:03pm

catlind wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:01pm:
Dumb question - but what about thoseof us who have overextended ourselves in the credit market taking responsibility and drastically cutting spending and losing the instant gratification stigma and busting our butts to eliminate the extraneous debt we have accumulated and begin living below our means to pay of our creditors and being to save money and go back to basics?

Am I really that naive?

Cat

What are you, friggin' nuts? That would be so old school. ;)

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:04pm
Watch Frontline...on now.  PBS
Steve G

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:06pm

stevegeebe wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:04pm:
Watch Frontline...on now.  PBS
Steve G

Can't. Can you synopsize?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Redd on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:21pm

Brew wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:06pm:

stevegeebe wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:04pm:
Watch Frontline...on now.  PBS
Steve G

Can't. Can you synopsize?



Me either.  Can't afford cable anymore. :-/

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:33pm

catlind wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:01pm:
Am I really that naive?


No, that will happen ... it doesn't bother me at all to see people who were overindulging cut back and live within their means.  

What does bother me is seeing a steep rise in unemployment, falling wages, and the difficulties that responsible people have in getting a mortgage or loan.  Lots of people will get slammed that were not living high on the hog.



Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:45pm

monty wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:33pm:

catlind wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:01pm:
Am I really that naive?


No, that will happen ... it doesn't bother me at all to see people who were overindulging cut back and live within their means.  


Do you mean like when three bankers bought this country and we all had to live lower than we were?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 17th, 2009 at 10:17pm
No, that isn't what I meant.  I'm not sure that 3 bankers 'bought the country'  ...  I think lots of people have messed things up.  The millions of people that are over their heads in debt, the people that loaned them the money, hedge fund managers, the Fed, which kept the money supply too loose and cheap, repeal of legislation that limited banks, allowing usury, etc. etc.  

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by PollyPocket on Feb 17th, 2009 at 10:34pm
..... and then there are those of us, and I am sure there are many, who did everything they could within their power "right" but due to circumstances beyond our control,  are now completely fucked.  :(

None of this "economic stimulus" shit means anything.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Artonio on Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:34pm
Nah... it doesn't sound ominous at all.

What this whole stimulus package seems to be is a squirt gun being used to put out a huge fire in an orphanage.

ya want ominous... It's going to get a whole lot worse... I'd guess that it will get so bad that many of us will not have internet access in the next 5 years. In fact no internet will be the least of our problems.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:37pm

monty wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 10:17pm:
No, that isn't what I meant.  I'm not sure that 3 bankers 'bought the country'  ...   


Read all about it!

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by catlind on Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:54pm

Brew wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:03pm:

catlind wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:01pm:
Dumb question - but what about thoseof us who have overextended ourselves in the credit market taking responsibility and drastically cutting spending and losing the instant gratification stigma and busting our butts to eliminate the extraneous debt we have accumulated and begin living below our means to pay of our creditors and being to save money and go back to basics?

Am I really that naive?

Cat

What are you, friggin' nuts? That would be so old school. ;)



Guess that's why the Cdn Gov't audited me when I sent them a bill for the year they had use of my money through taxes - they didn't appreciate my perspective and audited me.

Cat

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Callico on Feb 18th, 2009 at 12:54am

Brew wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:02pm:

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 8:52pm:
And why the hell would Obama personally inspect the solar panels on the roof?  Wouldn't it be better to have some sort of expert in PV cells or power generation inspect the panels?

What are you trying to do? Rain on his parade? This is the first trip he's gotten to take on Air Force One.

Buzz Kill.  ;D


Nah, he took Air Force One to Chicago to take his wife out to dinner for Valentines Day, then flew it back to Washington before flying out to Denver.  It doesn't matter how much of a carbon footprint HE leaves.  It is US who have to prevent global warming.  He's just like Pelosi, Reed, Gore, and others who try to make it impossible for us to enjoy life as we know it, but they go on and live it up on OUR nickel.

Jerry

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:25am

Artonio wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 11:34pm:
Nah... it doesn't sound ominous at all.

What this whole stimulus package seems to be is a squirt gun being used to put out a huge fire in an orphanage.

ya want ominous... It's going to get a whole lot worse... I'd guess that it will get so bad that many of us will not have internet access in the next 5 years. In fact no internet will be the least of our problems.

with warm regards,
Tony

Like going after an iceberg with an icepick? So what we're in for would be the throwing of ever increasing numbers of dollars that don't exist at a problem that keeps getting bigger?

Maybe the people fighting the fire should be allowed to keep more of their own money to buy better firefighting tools....

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:15am
Quote from Brew post:

Quote:
I don't want to pretend that today marks the end of our economic problems. Nor does it constitute all of what we have to do to turn our economy around. But today does mark the beginning of the end, the beginning of what we need to do to create jobs for Americans scrambling in the wake of layoffs.


I'm wondering if he was trying to emulate this portion of a Churchill quote following the victory at El Alameinin North Africa, London, 10 November 1942.


Quote:
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."






Quote:
Maybe the people fighting the fire should be allowed to keep more of their own money to buy better firefighting tools....


Probably works if gainfully employed, not "scrambling in the wake of layoffs."



Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:22am
Emulation, or a sad attempt at plagerism? You be the judge.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:28am
Hard to beat Churchill for quotes.  Something about imitation being the best form of flattery.    :)


Especially when searching to lead through dire times.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 18th, 2009 at 11:32am
Almost as ominous as buying peoples houses for them

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 18th, 2009 at 11:51am

Bob P wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 11:32am:
Almost as ominous as buying peoples houses for them

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Oh, Bob - We're only a month in. I'm sure it will get even more exciting. I'm thinking about buying a case of Depends so I can keep riding this ride without having to stop.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 18th, 2009 at 12:30pm
I'm tempted to sell everything I have and stick the money in an offshore account.  Then I can just live off the fat of the land (or Government as it were) here and use my hidden money for luxourious vacations!!!

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 18th, 2009 at 1:35pm
You might consider the bank in Antigua run by Allen Stanford. He's got somewhere between $8 and $50 billion of assets to back up his business.


Quote:
Stanford, a Texan operating from the tropical island paradise of Antigua, was sued by the Securities and Exchange Commission for making up stories and statistics to sell $8 billion of what the commission said were “self-styled” CDs that fraudulently promised higher returns than “true certificates of deposit offered by traditional banks.”

Stanford deployed an army of salespeople with his CD pitch to convince as many as 50,000 wealthy investors in the U.S., Caribbean and Latin America to send him their money. He apparently spent a lot of their cash to buy illiquid stakes in real estate, pay sales commissions for his brokers and acquire the luxurious accouterments that a flashy promoter needs to host cricket matches, politicians and money managers in the Caribbean.

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:27pm
"The incentives for mortgage-servicing companies to tilt their calculation in favor of loan modification include a $1,000 fee for each mortgage they restructure as well as up to $1,000 a year for the next three years if the borrower remains current. In addition, the government would pay up to $1,000 a year to reduce the size of a homeowner’s mortgage, if the borrower remained current."

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WTF?....I have never missed a mortgage payment, am I gonna get $1000 of TAXPAYERS money?

>:(

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Artonio on Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:50pm

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:27pm:
"The incentives for mortgage-servicing companies to tilt their calculation in favor of loan modification include a $1,000 fee for each mortgage they restructure as well as up to $1,000 a year for the next three years if the borrower remains current. In addition, the government would pay up to $1,000 a year to reduce the size of a homeowner’s mortgage, if the borrower remained current."

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WTF?....I have never missed a mortgage payment, am I gonna get $1000 of TAXPAYERS money?

>:(


Not to be a wise a$$... but what type of plan would you come up with to prevent these people and their families from ending up on the street.

Some of these folks work full time jobs (both parents) and are still confronting foreclosure. Each time a house on your block goes into foreclosure... the value of your house depreciates.

Some guy decided to help out the homeless by providing a E.D.A.R. (Everyone Deserves A Roof)

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It's a shame that anyone would have to resort to having their family live on the street. Hopefully the stimulus package will prevent a few folks from having to go that route.

with warm regards,
Tony


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:01pm

Artonio wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:50pm:

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:27pm:
"The incentives for mortgage-servicing companies to tilt their calculation in favor of loan modification include a $1,000 fee for each mortgage they restructure as well as up to $1,000 a year for the next three years if the borrower remains current. In addition, the government would pay up to $1,000 a year to reduce the size of a homeowner’s mortgage, if the borrower remained current."

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WTF?....I have never missed a mortgage payment, am I gonna get $1000 of TAXPAYERS money?

>:(


Not to be a wise a$$... but what type of plan would you come up with to prevent these people and their families from ending up on the street.


I dont need a plan because I didnt run for president.

Lets see, a $1000 if they can make all the payments in a year.....They are fucking suppose to make the damn payments!

I make mine wheres my money?

Do you think they are going to make sure these people are not criminaliens?

Sure, some good folks need help, but do it without making me (the guy that didnt fuck up) pay for it!

Rant over (for now)  ;)



Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:05pm
How about get out of the the place they are in now and can't afford and get a smaller place they can afford.

That was tough one, what's next?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Artonio on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:09pm
God forbid you should loose your job and your mortgage is doubled. Sometimes it's nobodies fault when shit just happens. Some folks just have crappy luck regardless of doing everything right.

I'd rather see someone living on my block not go into foreclosure...

...and your $1000 dollars is in the form of home equity. If 5 people on your block foreclose there goes the value of your Home....

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:24pm

Artonio wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:09pm:
God forbid you should loose your job and your mortgage is doubled. Sometimes it's nobodies fault when shit just happens. Some folks just have crappy luck regardless of doing everything right.

I'd rather see someone living on my block not go into foreclosure...

...and your $1000 dollars is in the form of home equity. If 5 people on your block foreclose there goes the value of your Home....

with warm regards,
Tony


My mortgage will never double, I was smart enough to get a fixed mortgage.

I dont care if ten houses get foreclosed on, I aint going anywhere so people will buy the houses and shit will be right again.

Now, wheres my $1000?

Ever hear the bit that Chris Rock does...."I take care of my kids"?.............Look it up! ;)

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Artonio on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:27pm

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:24pm:

Artonio wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:09pm:
God forbid you should loose your job and your mortgage is doubled. Sometimes it's nobodies fault when shit just happens. Some folks just have crappy luck regardless of doing everything right.

I'd rather see someone living on my block not go into foreclosure...

...and your $1000 dollars is in the form of home equity. If 5 people on your block foreclose there goes the value of your Home....

with warm regards,
Tony


My mortgage will never double, I was smart enough to get a fixed mortgage.

I dont care if ten houses get foreclosed on, I aint going anywhere so people will buy the houses and shit will be right again.

Now, wheres my $1000?

Ever hear the bit that Chris Rock does...."I take care of my kids"?.............Look it up! ;)


your $1000 dollars is in home equity not lost due to the bailout... be glad and rejoice.
:-*

with warm regards,
Tony


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:21pm
This new deal comes from TARP or part of it, so I understand. It sounds a better way to blow it than letting the ghouls of Wall Street, who look at this kind of thing as an okay from the Feds to take the money and hide rather than use it wisely, get their sticky fingers on it. Nice piece of change.  :o

I watched him in Arizona today. Yikes. This guy is a rock star. We're going to have to deal it for some time. These are youngsters that voted for him and are likely to give him a LOT of leeway. If you don't like him, I'm afraid you're stuck for some time to come. I'm wishing our kids all the luck in the world....All of us are gonna need it.

I'm hoping that some of this stuff works but I have no illusions about it. The operative word is "some." It's hard get around but still.............on the other hand, it's great for the 44 out of 50 states that are in deep this year.

It ain't pretty but this economic mess gets bigger and bigger. I've never seen anything this bad.

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by BobG on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:40pm
The Dow Jones is up today.
Hey, happy days are here again.
My Social Security checks start in March. About freakin' time. I've been without a job for 2 and a half years.
Almost got to the point where we were thinking of firing the maid. Well, the upstairs one anyway.  ::)

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:41pm
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility and Common Sense?
Always seem to be working for others.

Bob P, I like the way you think. I'm thinking about just paying off the rest of our mortgage, quitting work and just work the system.

Maybe even write a book. 100 ways to prepare Government Cheese.

Tired, tired tired..........

Steve G

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:44pm
Oh..almost forgot...you can watch Frontline on line at PBS.org...Banking at the Brink.

SG

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:46pm

stevegeebe wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:41pm:
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility and Common Sense?


We need not worry about that anymore, bro......Obamas AG just said this about us today!

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:48pm

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:24pm:

Artonio wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:09pm:
God forbid you should loose your job and your mortgage is doubled. Sometimes it's nobodies fault when shit just happens. Some folks just have crappy luck regardless of doing everything right.

I'd rather see someone living on my block not go into foreclosure...

...and your $1000 dollars is in the form of home equity. If 5 people on your block foreclose there goes the value of your Home....

with warm regards,
Tony


My mortgage will never double, I was smart enough to get a fixed mortgage.

I dont care if ten houses get foreclosed on, I aint going anywhere so people will buy the houses and shit will be right again.

Now, wheres my $1000?

Ever hear the bit that Chris Rock does...."I take care of my kids"?.............Look it up! ;)

Just one more example of being punished for playing by the rules. And the double-dip of being forced to reward those who don't.

Does anyone remember sitting at the conference table, ready to sign the papers for your very first mortgage, and the guy from the bank tells you how much house you can afford? Some responsible people say "sure, but I've already determined how much I can afford, and it's nowhere near what you just tossed out."

I guess some people answer that one by saying, "cha-ching." Now all these borrowed billions are going to bail them out, and you, me, and our kids and grandkids get the privilege of paying for it.

What a crock of shit.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:55pm
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Nuff said!

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:11pm

Artonio wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 6:09pm:
...and your $1000 dollars is in the form of home equity.


Let me get this straight. My math must be way off.

Joe Shmuck buys a house for $200,000. Borrows $200.000 no money down. His house is now worth $150,000. His loss "0". Obamahood GIVES him a cheaper interest rate and an extra $100 month off his principle.

I buy a house for $200,000. Borrow $150,000. My house is now worth $150,000 just like Joe Shmuck. My loss $50,000. Obamahood gives me "0".

The Schmuck should offload that house and buy a dbl wide trailer like he should have did in the first place.  ::)

And what about the 60% worth of 32 years of saving for retirement I lost. Is Obamahood going to give me some credit.  :(

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:18pm

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:11pm:
And what about the 60% worth of 32 years of saving for retirement I lost. Is Obamahood going to give me some credit.  :(

No, the government is going to take care of you through your retirement by confiscating your 401K and spreading the wealth around a little. Again, that is your privilege, not a crime against you. If you just bend over and relax, it won't hurt as much.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:19pm

Quote:
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility and Common Sense?


Absolutely! It should be a part of growing up. Schools are afraid of teaching it......they are terrified of the kids.....so it's up to families. It's been so long that I'm not sure if most parents can handle it today. They are the ones in the most trouble. Crash courses needed, I guess.

I, and most of us here, it seems, was lucky. No one got a better background in dealing with debt and living within your means than I. We had business debts and a lot of people to satisfy every month. What was left, was ours........some of it.

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:25pm
Normally "BOHIC" would cover most of the country.

But, here in Mass we are so use to "BOHICA"

"Bend Over Here It Comes Again"

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2009 at 9:46pm

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:46pm:

stevegeebe wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:41pm:
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility and Common Sense?


We need not worry about that anymore, bro......Obamas AG just said this about us today!

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You may not see it, but I do!

Its coming down to race....and less than 30 days in.....LOL

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 19th, 2009 at 6:35am
Being close, like neighbors next door, there can be a lot of different circumstances behind foreclosures.

A.  Wife finds out something about husband, turns him in, jailed.  Wife has job, works hard but can't keep house, foreclosure.  She did the right thing though, anyone would have.

B.  Wife loses job in K-Mart restructuring, son loses job then apartment, moves back in with mom and dad with his wife and kid.  Dad has forced wage reduction, tries to negotiate with bank, best offer refused, foreclosure.  

Houses here are simple, not anything overboard or overextended to these who lost.  Lots of things happening despite common sense and lifelong personal responsibility.

A friend in the neighborhood was fine with personal responsibility affording his common sense house payments, employed at a Jeep plant here, once a highly popular make, hasn't worked for awhile, they can't give one away now.  A different situation.



Like the old TV series, there are a thousand different stories in the naked city, and this is just one.  

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 19th, 2009 at 7:07am

Kevin_M wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:15am:
I'm wondering if he was trying to emulate this portion of a Churchill quote following the victory at El Alameinin North Africa, London, 10 November 1942.


Quote:
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."


Churchill had some great quotes, be did "drink a bit". This one might be some evidence of that.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 19th, 2009 at 7:10am

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:46pm:

stevegeebe wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 7:41pm:
What ever happened to Personal Responsibility and Common Sense?


We need not worry about that anymore, bro......Obamas AG just said this about us today!

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These guys can't seem to help the oozing out of examples of the high degree of disdain they hold for our country and it's people.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 19th, 2009 at 7:19am
I don't know, Scott.  The Brits were beat off the continent at Dunkirk and had difficult going protecting the Suez from Egypt.  El Alameinin was kind of like a first big victory, Monty was king but the quote is a reminder this elation is not at all the end, and perhaps in a predicted long hard war, not even the beginning of it's end.  The victory though could be the end of the dour beginning abroad where they had thus far not fared well.  France and much more had fallen fast and Russia looking bad.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 19th, 2009 at 7:44am
The sentence prior to the portion of the quote I remembered and looked up for correct wording was left out, to just show the resembling part, which was instantly familiar.


"The Germans have received back again that measure of fire and steel which they have so often meted out to others. Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

     



Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:19am

wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:27pm:
"The incentives for mortgage-servicing companies to tilt their calculation in favor of loan modification include a $1,000 fee for each mortgage they restructure as well as up to $1,000 a year for the next three years if the borrower remains current. In addition, the government would pay up to $1,000 a year to reduce the size of a homeowner’s mortgage, if the borrower remained current."

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WTF?....I have never missed a mortgage payment, am I gonna get $1000 of TAXPAYERS money?

>:(


I see your point, but I think you are still coming out on the winning end. The average cost to a community from a foreclosure is ~$20K ... cities and counties lose tax money, property values are depressed, crime increases, etc.  

So would you rather have US taxpayers pay a few grand to keep people in a house (assuming they can make the payments on a fixed rate loan), or would you rather have your local community pay much more?  

[quote]The average cost to society of a mortgage foreclosure is $22,330. The average cost to the investor is $50,000-60,000.”

Lawrence Summers says on the Financial Times web site, “Foreclosures are extremely costly. Between transaction costs that typically run at one-third or more of a home’s value and the adverse impact on neighbouring properties, foreclosures can easily dissipate more than the total value of the home being repossessed. They also inflict collateral economic damage, as reduced wealth and diminished borrowing capacity in homes reduces consumer spending, increases credit market fragility and depresses local tax bases.”

...

Some of this cost is borne by the banks, some by the homeowner, some by neighbors and some by you.

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:55am

Quote:
"[T]he state is getting more and more deeply involved in business, even taking controlling interests in some private companies. And the state is even trying to 'make policy' for private companies they do not control, but merely 'help' with 'infusions of capital'.... So state power is growing at the expense of corporations. But that's not socialism. Socialism rests on a firm theoretical bedrock: the abolition of private property. ... It's fascism." --columnist Michael Ledeen

"The idea that even the brightest person or group of bright people, much less the U.S. Congress, can wisely manage an economy has to be the height of arrogance and conceit. Why? It is impossible for anyone to possess the knowledge that would be necessary for such an undertaking." --economist Walter E. Williams

"The amount of money involved [in the stimulus bill] is staggering. With 90 million tax filers who actually pay taxes, the $787 billion means the average taxpayer will pay over $8,700. By itself, adding $8,700 to the average tax bill should get everyone's attention. But that is on top of everything else that we are spending this year. ...[T]his year's deficit is already at about $1.7 trillion -- almost $19,000 per taxpayer." --economist John Lott

"The big story last week was the incredible Congressional rush to pass a bill that was more than a thousand pages long in just two days -- after which it sat on the President's desk for three days while the Obamas were away on a holiday. There is the same complete inconsistency in the bill itself." --economist Thomas Sowell


Maybe the Government should take over all housing and hand one out to each person.  Then we could all work in Government controlled jobs so we have security.  (Starting to sound a bit Communist).

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by catlind on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:55am
Read Ayn Rand,  AtlasShrugged.

edited to correct:

Anthem is an entirely separate book - although equally a good read.  My bad

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2009 at 10:07am

catlind wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:55am:
Read Ayn Rand, Anthem Shrugged.


Atlas Shrugged?  Read it - it reminds me of the Nation of Islam - stressing personal responsibility, initiative, and achivement (all good), but underneath, driven on a core of indifference or contempt for others.


Quote:
The main crux of the book surrounds the decision of the "men of the mind" to go on strike, refusing to contribute their inventions, art, business leadership, scientific research, or new ideas of any kind to the rest of the world. Each man of ability eventually reasons (or is convinced) that society hampers him with unnecessary, burdensome regulations and undervalues his contributions to the world, confiscating the profits and sullying the reputations he has rightfully earned. The peaceful cohesiveness of the world begins to disintegrate as each of these men of ability slowly disappears and society loses those individuals whose mental effort allows it to continue functioning. The strikers believe that they are crucial to a society that exploits them, denying them freedom or failing to acknowledge their right to self-interest, and the gradual collapse of civilization is triggered by their strike.

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by catlind on Feb 19th, 2009 at 10:16am
Flo, I don't put much stock in wiki, what I do put stock in is the underlying message written by a woman who was well before her time.

I do not agree with a secret society that holds contempt for those who do not wish to use their minds to think for themselves.   Most people choose to follow the masses.  But if just one person can take away the premise that we hold our lives and our fates in our own hands and can use that to build a value structure and life that is for the purpose of our own value and growth then I think it a worthwhile read.

Ayn Rand in and of herself is a zealot of her own kind.  You have to read beyond the preaching and zealotry to arrive at your own personal interpretation.

There are parallels in many of her writings that make sense.  As there are in authors of Terry Goodkind - a favorite quote of mine is this:

Quote:
     
The only sovereign I can allow to rule me is reason.  The law of reason is this:  what exists, exists; what is, is.  From this irreducible, bedrock principle, all knowledge is built.  This is the foundation from which life is embraced.      


Take what you need and leave the rest.

Each of us has the ability to reason out what is and isn't in our own personal best interest.  The world (or the government) cannot determine what is best for the individual, only what they deem the best for the masses.  I prefer to be an individual.

No disrespect intended, just enjoy a healthy discussion on the merits of of an author who was ahead of her time, albeit in a an obscure sense of zealotry.

Cat

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 19th, 2009 at 10:37am
Atlas Shrugged is next on my list of "read agains."

The wench started reading it again (for the 3rd time, I believe) just a couple weeks ago. She told me she had to stop about halfway through because it was even scarier this time due to the shocking parallels with today's society and government.

First published in 1957, I believe.

Edited to add this quote from Atlas Shrugged, which I found rather pertinent after the 9/11 attacks:


Quote:
A viler evil than to murder a man, is to sell him suicide as an act of virtue. A viler evil than to throw a man into a sacrificial furnace, is to demand that he leap in, of his own will, and that he build the furnace, besides.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2009 at 10:58am

catlind wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 10:16am:
Flo, I don't put much stock in wiki,


OK, wiki has its limits, but do you disagree that the book was about talented people protesting the way things are, yet the effect of their protest was to make things worse?? That was my impression when I read the book - even if the gripes were legitimate, the 'solution' was counterproductive.

I realize that fans of the book see it one way (If you don't give us what we want/what should be, you will make things worse), while others see it as petulance (If you don't give us what we want, we will use our power to bring everyone down).


Quote:
... But if just one person can take away the premise that we hold our lives and our fates in our own hands and can use that to build a value structure and life that is for the purpose of our own value and growth then I think it a worthwhile read.

Ayn Rand in and of herself is a zealot of her own kind.  You have to read beyond the preaching and zealotry to arrive at your own personal interpretation.


That's exactly my point in comparing it with Nation of Islam. African American's who find NOI (often in prison) value learning and self-development; they go from being slouches to standing tall and taking responsibility for themselves. Some get beyond the zealotry, but most do not. In both cases, it can lead to improvement of the self-centered individual, but not to the development of the philanthropic individual.

I would also compare Rand to Karl Marx - just switch out Marx's idea that the value of labor is the real foundation of society with Rand's emphasis on the mental products of the 'talented few'.  Then switch out Marx's idea that the factory owner or capitalist is only a parasite and the prime problem with Rand's belief that the herd/masses can only be parasites and they are to blame for the current mess.

The laissez-faire vision of the world that Rand, Friedman, Alan Greenspan and others championed simply doesn't work. Even Greenspan now recognizes this.


Quote:
She has inspired politicians, presidents and economists across the globe. One notable and illustrious follower of Ayn Rand’s philosophy is former United States Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan. Greenspan’s policies dominated the world economic situation for decades. In his early years, Greenspan was part of her close knit and exclusive club called the “Collectives” that met every week to write, discuss and promote her ideas. In those days he wrote spirited commentary for her newsletter with the fervour of a new convert. So great was her influence on him that he invited her to attend his swearing in ceremony in Washington D.C.

In the 1990s, Greenspan’s ideologies met with great success. Greenspan rode the tide of a global economic boom characterised by unparalleled borrowing and high consumer spending. The free market enterprise propagated by Alan Greenspan for over 40 years recommended a hands-off approach where banks and markets had very little regulation. The politicians and government officials who argued for more controls and checks and balances to regulate the economy were silenced by the performance of the bullish stock market.

Last year, when the world banks came crashing down and the housing market was brought to its knees owing to the mortgage crises, Greenspan expressed shocked disbelief at the magnitude of the credit crisis and admitted that there was a flaw in his hands-off unfettered free market ideology. The laissez faire philosophy whose cornerstone is self regulation of financial institutions proved to be an oxymoron.


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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 19th, 2009 at 5:33pm
You wouldn't enjoy having Ayn Rand as a nextdoor neighbor. A very depressing and sad creature.

As much as I like Robert Heinlein's writings, I wouldn't want him either. Cut from the same cloth. Neither of them leave room for nuance. Boring as hell.

The only good thing about Rand was that unlike Heinlein, she was an incredibly slow or lazy writer.

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 19th, 2009 at 7:06pm

Charlie wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 5:33pm:
The only good thing about Rand was that unlike Heinlein, she was an incredibly slow or lazy writer.

And incredibly more successful at her craft than any of us. ;)

I don't know - maybe you're right, I wouldn't enjoy having her as a neighbor. If she'd talk to me, I might never want to go to work.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 19th, 2009 at 8:10pm
No free speech for you!

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 19th, 2009 at 8:15pm
Brew..your killing me.  Maybe we are all just Alex, in, Job A comedy of Justice, switching from one reality to another.

Can't wait for the next earthly reality. I think I'm ready.

Steve G

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:09pm

wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 8:10pm:
No free speech for you!

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Speech has always had limits - if something sounds like a threat, it should be investigated. Thems the laws, no matter who is President.


Quote:
...  any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.


You can argue that he wasn't serious about the threat, and usually such cases are dropped. But clearly, it appears that the message in question involved promoting the idea of killing our current elected leader, and as such is not protected speech under the Constitution.

I remember the good old days when we had mainframe terminals for email; a student (allegedly) walked away without logging off, and someone (allegedly) came along and used that account to send a threatening email to the President. The campus was swarming with Secret Service agents for a day or so.  

Other funny things happen when someone pulls a fire alarm for no reason, or makes jokes about bombs when going through security at an airport. Free speech is not an unlimited license, never has been.


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:21pm
Sorry Flo.

"Abort Obama"

Where's the threat?

When you look at the rest of the message it make's even more sense that it's not a threat, no?

Look's to me like some Obama loving cop busting balls on free speech, notice that they gave the sign right back as not to get sued.....LOL  ;D

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:29pm
.. the guy was questioned by the police and secret service, and said that "abortion to him meant that Obama should be removed from office and not harmed physically in anyway."  Which is transparently bogus, unless he is upset that unborn children are being impeached by the Senate or otherwise thwarted in their elected duties.  

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:41pm

monty wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:29pm:
.. the guy was questioned by the police and secret service, and said that "abortion to him meant that Obama should be removed from office and not harmed physically in anyway."  Which is transparently bogus, unless he is upset that unborn children are being impeached by the Senate or otherwise thwarted in their elected duties.  


What you refuse to see is that when the cop's sargent got there they gave the sign back, hence, Obama radical cop!

No?

Night, Flo....you tuckered me out!  :-*

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:48am

Quote:
it appears that the message in question involved promoting the idea of killing our current elected leader

At least he does recognize that abortion is killing.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 20th, 2009 at 8:22am

Without being able to view Jonny's link, I can only go by this:


wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:21pm:
"Abort Obama"

Where's the threat?


The word "abort" was used.  

As we frequently use the word here meaning to stop, halt prematurely, I can see it to be too simple a phrase to understand which method it could be done, by itself displaying a very strong resistance to Obama's term being continued on to completion.



He seems to have had the right answer here:


Quote:
and said that "abortion to him meant that Obama should be removed from office and not harmed physically in anyway."


Way down the list of definitions of abortion can be stopping an illness or infection at a very early stage, which may be freedom to express how he strongly feels.  

I don't know, stopping to question him about this can be considered precautionary I guess with the connotation of a creative design in expression.    

opinion only

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 20th, 2009 at 8:58am
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Read 'em and weep.  Nagin offered to take the stimulus money if Gov. Jindal turned it down.

Hey stevegeebe, wonder why Jindal is going around to these other states and raising money?  I heard him on tv and he flat stated that it was for his next governors' race.  According to what I hear he's, got about 2 mil so far.  Why in the hell would be stump in other states to raise money for a governors' race in Louisiana?  I would bet high odds that he does run for president in 2012.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 20th, 2009 at 12:05pm
Johnny is right - if the glove does not fit, we must acquit!!

I suppose only a radical cop would pull some one over if their car had a sign or bumper sticker that said "Attack the United States!"  After all, the 'attack' could refer to political, ideological, or some other non-violent form of dealing with America.   Attack might mean criticize with words in strongest terms.

From Webster's Dictionary:

Quote:
Attack

2  : to assail with unfriendly or bitter words <a speech attacking her political enemies>  
4  : to set to work on <attack a problem>  


So I guess that we must cheerfully accept the "Attack America" movement because there are definitions and word games that provide them cover?? Nah. Pull em over, check em out, follow up on anything else that is suspicious.

Poor guy who had the sign - he was driving around all puffed up and tough, and then when confronted, he flexed like a pussywillow and pretended he never meant it at all.  


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 20th, 2009 at 2:29pm

monty wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 12:05pm:
"Attack the United States!"  


Try getting on a plane at an airport with that bumper sticker pasted all over your carry-on.   ;)

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 20th, 2009 at 5:34pm

Quote:
Think of the housing bailout. A part of that plan (the TV show “Lost” is more rooted in reality) is President Obama giving homeowners an “incentive payment” of $1,500 if they remain current through their loan modification (translation: a handout just for doing what you’ve previously agreed to do). They also qualify for a bonus of $1,000 a year for five years if they keep up with payments. That’s a $6,500 perk for people to stay in homes they already can’t afford! And by the way–do you have a five-year mortgage? Me neither. Most of us have 30 year mortgages, so this is an awfully expensive band-aid on a problem that we’ll only have to rip off in five years –and you know how painful that can be. Plus, for good measure we’ve allowed people to remain under the delusion that they can and deserve to stay in homes they never should have been able to buy in the first place. It’s so insane, I’d actually laugh if I wasn’t so busy crying.


Yep, makes sense to me!

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 20th, 2009 at 5:48pm

Bob P wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 5:34pm:

Quote:
Think of the housing bailout. A part of that plan (the TV show “Lost” is more rooted in reality) is President Obama giving homeowners an “incentive payment” of $1,500 if they remain current through their loan modification (translation: a handout just for doing what you’ve previously agreed to do). They also qualify for a bonus of $1,000 a year for five years if they keep up with payments. That’s a $6,500 perk for people to stay in homes they already can’t afford! And by the way–do you have a five-year mortgage? Me neither. Most of us have 30 year mortgages, so this is an awfully expensive band-aid on a problem that we’ll only have to rip off in five years –and you know how painful that can be. Plus, for good measure we’ve allowed people to remain under the delusion that they can and deserve to stay in homes they never should have been able to buy in the first place. It’s so insane, I’d actually laugh if I wasn’t so busy crying.


Yep, makes sense to me!


That's what I am talking about, Bob!

Where the fuck is my $$$ for making all my 125 mortgage payments on time?

I PAID for the equity in my house, so nobody even tell me that's where mine is....it's BS!

I think worse things are coming and it will be here sooner then anyone thinks!

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson




Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:16pm
Last week, my neighbor was up on his roof, careless, and fell off. His wife called 911, which sent the township ambulance service and took him to the hospital. Fortunately, he wasn't hurt seriously, though he did sprain his dignity.

It probably cost more than a thousand dollars, and it didn't come out of his pocket.  What I want to know, where is my thousand dollars???  Why do careless fools have money spent on them, yet people like me who are careful and don't fall off their roofs get NOTHING.  It just ain't fair, people. It's like limiting the remedial reading classes only to those that are having trouble .... quite unfair to the students who do the homework and actually learn something.

I know your saying that I should be grateful that I didn't fall, I could have hurt myself regardless of whether they spent money on me.  But this just demonstrates the dangers of having a township ambulance service (hello? SOCIALIZED!!) - it encourages people to be stupid and injure themselves. It tells people there are no limits and no matter what they do, the township will send out an ambulance to fix things.  We need to let people fail, and let people fall, and not do anything.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Artonio on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:19pm
Yep it sounds very unfair that all these good people who have followed the rules and did everything legally do not get a bailout bonus. Paying ones mortgage on time every month as per agreement per contract does not go unnoticed... it reflects on your credit score.

Building equity in your home takes time and diligence... why would you risk the value of your house plummeting because five homes in your neighborhood go into foreclosure and are uninhabited ?
30 years worth of blood sweat and tears reduced down to  nearly nothing.

Sadly there is no litmus test that weeds out the speculators and idiots from those who have just fallen on hard times. It would be an interesting move though if the Gov. bought the foreclosed homes and gave them to the disabled american vets just because it's the right thing to do.

That would probably be considered too much meddling by the Gov. though.

just a thought.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:24pm
These folks did not have an accident, Flo!

MOST of them either bit off more than they could chew or, borrowed all the equity out of the house when house prices went up!

Are you cool with rewarding very bad judgement?

Rewarding idiots?

With my money?

How about you offer to pay my share if you feel these low lifes need bailout....Cool?

ETA: LMMFAO, Tony...fallen on hard times?.....LOL  ;D

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by karma on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:37pm
Correct me i'm wrong but the money appropriated for the stimulus package is newly printed money that does not come out of any local or federal coffers.
The country has been running in a budget defecit for eight years and has carried a debt for decades so any additional spending equals a bigger defecit now calculated at almost 11 trillion dollars.
We have been paying for this debt for decades. It's only now that things are tight people are paying attention.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:45pm

karma wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:37pm:
Correct me i'm wrong but the money appropriated for the stimulus package is newly printed money that does not come out of any local or federal coffers.
The country has been running in a budget defecit for eight years and has carried a debt for decades so any additional spending equals a bigger defecit now calculated at almost 11 trillion dollars.
We have been paying for this debt for decades. It's only now that things are tight people are paying attention.


All true, but why pay someone to make their mortgage payments on time?

Why dont we just pay people that take care of their kids?

As Chris Rock said: You're suppose to take care of your kids you dumb mutha fucker!

Should'nt that go for paying one's mortgage?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by karma on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:50pm
Don't know but thats not my point. My point is your tax money has been used to help others or hundreds of years why should today be different?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:55pm

wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:24pm:
These folks did not have an accident, Flo!

MOST of them either bit off more than they could chew or, borrowed all the equity out of the house when house prices went up!

Are you cool with rewarding very bad judgement?

Rewarding idiots?

With my money?

How about you offer to pay my share if you feel these low lifes need bailout....Cool?

ETA: LMMFAO, Tony...fallen on hard times?.....LOL  ;D


Well, the difference between 'accident' and 'incident' is pretty arbitrary ... many accidents don't just happen on their own, but the ambulance will even try to help people who were drinking and driving.

According to some numbers I have seen, the bail-out will increase/preserve the value of the average home by $6000. So everyone who owns a home benefits there. Actually, those who were most capitalistic and earned more and bought a more expensive house will benefit more than I do, because my house is pretty modest. That's ok.

Also, I don't plan on moving anytime soon, but those people that do need to sell and then buy a house in the near future will get more benefits than stodgy people like me who stay put. That's another example of the bailout helping some people more than others, and its another example that doesn't really bother me. ... I would like to see the housing market stabilized, even if it at a new level of prices and sales. I have a friend who is basically trapped in the job and house he now has, as he can't sell his house to move to another city where he got an offer. Still, I guess its good he has a job.

I personally think paying down someone's principal is a bit too generous and not absolutely necessary, but it doesn't make my blood boil the way that it does with some people. The people who made really bad decisions and bought a house that they can never pay for will not be keeping it. The principal paydowns only occur when someone refinances and makes the payments for a year - these people will be required to take serious budgetary discipline to make it.  So it is helping the people that made somewhat poor decisions, not those who made spectacularly stupid ones.

Another thing - if the Republicans were responsible, they would be in a position to negotiate out some of the rough edges.  Wouldn't bother me at all if that one provision was removed as a compromise. But it is clear that most would rather vote against whatever comes out in lock-step, for purely political reasons.  They have traded their ability to influence this bill in return for the ability to say in the future that they had nothing to do with it.  Of course, many of the Republicans who voted against the recent stimulus also expressed relief when it passed ...


Quote:
   “When I came back to the cloak room after coming to the agreement a week ago today,” said Specter, “one of my colleagues said, ‘Arlen, I’m proud of you.’ My Republican colleague said, ‘Arlen, I’m proud of you.’ I said, ‘Are you going to vote with me?’ And he said, ‘No, I might have a primary.’ And I said, ‘Well, you know very well I’m going to have a primary.’”…

   “I think there are a lot of people in the Republican caucus who are glad to see this action taken without their fingerprints, without their participation,” he said.

   Specter was asked, How many of your colleagues?

   “I think a sizable number,” he said. “I think a good part of the caucus agrees with the person I quoted, but I wouldn’t want to begin to speculate on numbers.”


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 20th, 2009 at 7:00pm

karma wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:50pm:
Don't know but thats not my point. My point is your tax money has been used to help others or hundreds of years why should today be different?


Because it's being used to bail out people that bought $300,000 dollar houses with only a part time job.

The goverment did this not me, and a lot of folks that are now paying for it.

Get it now?



Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 20th, 2009 at 7:09pm
Come on, Jonny ...  How is a person with a part-time job and a $300,000 mortgage going to make payments of several thousand dollars a month for a year? He won't be able to, and he won't get the incentive.  The program is designed for a smaller group of people -  those who are on the edge of being able to make their payments.


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 20th, 2009 at 7:14pm

monty wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 7:09pm:
Come on, Jonny ...  How is a person with a part-time job and a $300,000 mortgage going to make payments of several thousand dollars a month for a year?


LOL...Give me some time to search the archives of the Boston Herald and I will show you, they even had a sit in when she was being evicted.

Until then, watch this!

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Watch the 'D' and 'R' on every speaker!







Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 20th, 2009 at 8:05pm

monty wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:16pm:
it encourages people to be stupid and injure themselves.


lol... accidentaly falling off your house is not the same as those who took bad loans jumped off their house.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 20th, 2009 at 9:20pm
Dont ya just love the internet....LOL

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Barney fucking Frank should pay my share of this shit.....and yours!  >:(

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 20th, 2009 at 11:47pm
It's only okay to pour hundreds of billions into the very businesses that displayed bad behavior on a scale hard to imagine but not to careless homebuyers who were guilty but on a much smaller scale. Nowhere close in scope.

Bailouts to business: "saving capitalism." Bailouts to the little guy: "communism."  

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 21st, 2009 at 8:32am

Charlie wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 11:47pm:
It's only okay to pour hundreds of billions into the very businesses that displayed bad behavior on a scale hard to imagine but not to careless homebuyers who were guilty but on a much smaller scale. Nowhere close in scope.

Bailouts to business: "saving capitalism." Bailouts to the little guy: "communism."  

Charlie

Who said that? Certainly not me. I'm with you on this one. If a company like GM or Chrysler gets so bloated and can't get out from under the massive weight of union contracts, whose fault is that?

Bailouts should come from the Salvation Army or the Red Cross.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 21st, 2009 at 10:13am
Bamer wants to throw a bone to his labor constiuancy when he really should give them the boner like Reagan did the air traffic controllers.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Sandy_C on Feb 21st, 2009 at 11:03am
I usually try to stay out of political/economical threads, but there is always the exception to the rule.

We bought our house in 2000 - 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, 3100 sq ft, 1 acre wooded lot.  House was in terrible condition, but with "good bones" so we considered it as a good investment, somewhere we could live til we died.

We worked our butts off remodeling - new kitchen with flooring, counters, appliances, cabinets - master bath with jacuzzi tub, marble tile, all new flooring throughout house, hardwoods, tile, carpet, paint inside and out.

We refinanced four years later and the house appraised at $45,000 higher than what we bought it for.

Neighbor three doors down, with comparable home to ours foreclosed.
Their house sold for less than the original purchase price of our house/  Our house is now worth less than what we paid for it in 2000.

We paid our mortgage on time, every month.  We also paid our equity line on this house on time, every month.  We also paid every single other bill we had on time, every month.

That one foreclosure in my neighborhood has cost us all of the money that we have put in to upgrade our home. It brought down the market value of our house.

There was an article in our paper, written by Jim Woodward real estate columnist, (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE), where he discussed how home sellers are becoming very creative in in marketing their homes - using incentives such as bonuses to the selling agent, paying closing costs for the buyer, paying a year of real estate taxes for the buyer, even trips.  What it interesting in this article is that none of these "incentives" are taken into consideration by an appraiser when using that sold home as a comparable home to someone trying to sell their house. So the final "asking price" of the house now going to market is actually inflated - higher than market value indicated by comparable properties in the area.

Conversely - if a home in your neighborhood sells due to a foreclosure at a much reduced market value ...guess what.  Appraisers and Realtors DO AND MUST, use that foreclosed on home as a comparable when determining the value of your house.  You've paid your mortgage, maintained your property, even upgraded, but that one foreclosure has reduced the value of your property.

Is this fair? No.  This is a double standard.  

Either do or do not include "incentives" in the sale price of a home, or do or do not include sale price of foreclosures when determining the market value of another home. Either way they want to do it - but one or the other, not both.

Sorry this is so long.  But, with a with an education in real estate, and carrying a real estate license in NC, and as a homeowner, this is totally unacceptable to me.  They cannot have t both ways -yet they do.

Sandy

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 21st, 2009 at 12:54pm
Great post, Sandy!!!

But, like I said before, I am in this for the long haul. Meaning someone will buy that house and shit will right it's self with time.

I mean hey, you dont jump into the stock market and expect to clean up in a year do ya?

I just can't stomach people that can't afford a damn house being paid to make on time payments.

I guess some people just can't understand where im coming from! :D

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 21st, 2009 at 2:08pm

monty wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 7:09pm:
Come on, Jonny ...  How is a person with a part-time job and a $300,000 mortgage going to make payments of several thousand dollars a month for a year?


45,000 homes were foreclosed and the banks took possession, in JANUARY.
Lot's of good hard working people, some working 3 jobs, are on the street trying to get approved for renting something that they can afford but may not be approved for because of the foreclosure.

Thousands of Americans that have worked hard all their lives have been either fired or layed off and are now working just as hard with much lower paying jobs, if at all yet.
Many of these people could have sold their homes, homes they made on time payments on for 20 years, but can't sell because they are upside down on their home that lost 35% of its value...WHILE THEY WERE AT WORK.

Thousands of retired Americans that were paying their mortages with draws from their various forms of 401Ks. Money they earned by working hard and saving. Their life savings have been wiped out by as much as 50% and are now threatened with living in a refrigerator box under a bridge.

Thousands of our men and women that have been fighting in the ME are coming home, to a house that was being paid for through their military pay and their spouses paycheck. Coming home to a jobless market. Now they are a trying to pay an upside down mortage on one paycheck. Hopefully they don't have a baby on the way.

I would hope our policies are adopted based upon these (hundreds of thousands) stories and not one story about some part time worker that tried to take advantage of the situation. For every one of those, there are thousands that did everything right, and had the rug pulled out from under them. A rug they paid for, sometimes with their blood.

B~

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 21st, 2009 at 3:05pm
Sorry, Bob....But if you lose your house for what ever reason, you lost your house!

I didnt lose my house and I dont want to pay someone for doing the right thing?.....whos paying me for years of doing the right thing?

Where was the goverment ten years ago?......people were foreclosed on that could not afford what the bought. Thats the way shit works......where was the bailout there?.......None, Why now?

If the company I own runs out of work should I ask for a bailout?

Fuck no!....its how shit works......you swim or you sink, the American way! ;)

This country will never be what it was!

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Artonio on Feb 21st, 2009 at 4:58pm

wrote on Feb 21st, 2009 at 3:05pm:
Sorry, Bob....But if you lose your house for what ever reason, you lost your house!

I didnt lose my house and I dont want to pay someone for doing the right thing?.....whos paying me for years of doing the right thing?

Where was the goverment ten years ago?......people were foreclosed on that could not afford what the bought. Thats the way shit works......where was the bailout there?.......None, Why now?

If the company I own runs out of work should I ask for a bailout?

Fuck no!....its how shit works......you swim or you sink, the American way! ;)

This country will never be what it was!


Jonny maybe you should get a new accountant, perhaps you may qualify for a tax rebate.
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edited to add: or perhaps you may want to purchase a vactaion home... if you rent it for 15 days at 10,000.00 a week... did you know that you will not have to pay taxes on $20,000.00 worth of income... not one penny. see the link below to see how you too can join the throngs of wealthy folks who benefit by owning a second home.
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hope this helps.

with warm regards,
Tony


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:15am

wrote on Feb 21st, 2009 at 3:05pm:
If the company I own runs out of work should I ask for a bailout?


I feel your pain, really I do.
But if things continue to spiral downward, (and they will it's only a matter of how long and how far) you very well could run out of work. Next you could be run out of your home. None of it being your fault, but being the fault of greedy f*cks like Bernie Madoff and a long list of crooks that I'm sure you're aware of.

One of the purposes of this bailout is to protect you from becoming a victim....or more of a direct victim, than we all already are.
If this thing stops before all your customers run out of money to buy your services, I think it will be worth it to you in the end.
If you could write a 10,000 check right now, to help save your business by making sure your customers stayed solvent, would you? This bill "may be" exactly that.

OTOH, maybe you don't want this shot at protection. Fair enough. Even some Governors are threatening to reject $s.
Its an old, time worn tradition you are advocating, that yes, is what helped build this country.
But, Thomas Jefferson never met Bernie Madoff or the CEO of Citicorp.
(He probably would have just shot them all)

Hell, my father used to refuse to take some business deductions because he felt that he needed to pay his fair share of taxes.
When my brother put his house in trust, my father asked why. He didn't understand why anyone would do that. My brother said; so that if anything bad happens in the business, people can't sue me and take my house. My dad said; if anything that bad happens, then they deserve to take your house, .....and almost disowned my brother.
Believe me, I hear where you're coming from.

But, we're looking at times possibly worse than the great depression. One of the reasons my father was so bent on paying taxes, was because that was his way of helping the country avoid another one of those. He lived through it. We come from a family of carpenters. My grandfather had to burn his wooden jack planes and other tools to keep the family warm.

One of the things used to get us out of the great depression was the formation of the CCCs. The Civilian Conservation Corps. 4 million Americans were put to work in Roosevelt's bailout plan. My father was one of them.
Without THAT bailout plan, I might not be here....to torment you. ;-)

There could be 2 million foreclosures this year. Based on that, there will be around 2000 people with clusters, forced out of their homes, this year.

B~

We don't want to see you having to sell roasted chestnuts on a street corner down in Brookline.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:44am

Pinkfloyd wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:15am:

wrote on Feb 21st, 2009 at 3:05pm:
If the company I own runs out of work should I ask for a bailout?


Believe me, I hear where you're coming from.


Fair enough, I guess we can leave it at that!  :-*

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Bob P on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:32am

Quote:
Many of these people could have sold their homes, homes they made on time payments on for 20 years, but can't sell because they are upside down on their home that lost 35% of its value...WHILE THEY WERE AT WORK.


I find it hard to believe that someone who paid their mortgage for 20 years can be upside down.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:47am

Bob P wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:32am:

Quote:
Many of these people could have sold their homes, homes they made on time payments on for 20 years, but can't sell because they are upside down on their home that lost 35% of its value...WHILE THEY WERE AT WORK.


I find it hard to believe that someone who paid their mortgage for 20 years can be upside down.


Sure they can, because they refinanced 3 times, the first time for a new kitchen, the second time to build out the bonus room and then, as they got better, and better at it, a new motorhome. So, their $80,000 home somehow has $160,000 worth of obligations against it. This thing is a mess.



Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 9:42am
HGTV syndrome.  Wants trump needs. Consume, consume, consume.  

Now...? Oh crap!...Would somebody please wipe me.

Here you go..use my tax cut money.  It's not much..so use it sparingly.

Steve G

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:36pm

seasonalboomer wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:47am:

Bob P wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:32am:

Quote:
Many of these people could have sold their homes, homes they made on time payments on for 20 years, but can't sell because they are upside down on their home that lost 35% of its value...WHILE THEY WERE AT WORK.


I find it hard to believe that someone who paid their mortgage for 20 years can be upside down.


Sure they can, because they refinanced 3 times, the first time for a new kitchen, the second time to build out the bonus room and then, as they got better, and better at it, a new motorhome. So, their $80,000 home somehow has $160,000 worth of obligations against it. This thing is a mess.


And those people deserve to lose that house if they cant pay for it!

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Artonio on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:47pm

wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:36pm:

seasonalboomer wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:47am:

Bob P wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:32am:

Quote:
Many of these people could have sold their homes, homes they made on time payments on for 20 years, but can't sell because they are upside down on their home that lost 35% of its value...WHILE THEY WERE AT WORK.


I find it hard to believe that someone who paid their mortgage for 20 years can be upside down.


Sure they can, because they refinanced 3 times, the first time for a new kitchen, the second time to build out the bonus room and then, as they got better, and better at it, a new motorhome. So, their $80,000 home somehow has $160,000 worth of obligations against it. This thing is a mess.


And those people deserve to lose that house if they can pay for it!



LOL..It's just so frustrating... when tax payers have to reward stupidity... but We do pay taxes for a reason... I like to think of the bailout like this.

I pay taxes... Part of the money goes to pay for a fire department.
My neighbors house catches on fire... the fire department shows up... puts out the fire, saving the home, the people in it and prevents the fire from possibly spreading to my home.

If my neighbor was a dumb enough fuck to leave a candle burning unattended which caused the fire... should the fire department not save them and the house?

It's the same thing.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:53pm
:D

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by purpleydog on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm

Artonio wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:47pm:
LOL..It's just so frustrating... when tax payers have to reward stupidity... but We do pay taxes for a reason... I like to think of the bailout like this.

I pay taxes... Part of the money goes to pay for a fire department.
My neighbors house catches on fire... the fire department shows up... puts out the fire, saving the home, the people in it and prevents the fire from possibly spreading to my home.

If my neighbor was a dumb enough fuck to leave a candle burning unattended which caused the fire... should the fire department not save them and the house?

It's the same thing.

with warm regards,
Tony


Good post, Tony.

Sandy, I did the same. I had a 15 year loan, and after it was half paid, I refinanced, and replaced the HVAC system, the plumbing system with copper and replaced the bath fixtures. Borrowed $11K to do it. Every dime went into the house.

Found out the house appraised at twice what I paid for it. Went from an 8% to a 5% rate and got a 10 year loan. I've made every payment on time. The house will be paid off in less than 3 years.

So far so good. But I am thankful I have a job. Thankful that nothing has happened that would cause me to not be able to make the payments.

When I was looking at houses to buy, I remember the bank telling me how much house I could afford. I thought they were nuts, don't they figure in things like car payments, utility bills and the other stuff life throws at you? I found a house *I* thought I could afford, which was much less than what the bank said, and have lived through lay-offs and unexpected bills and being unemployed (my choice) for a year and a half.

Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. People jumping at the chance to get jumbo mortgages, because the bank said they could afford it. Same people getting more house than they need, and can't afford to furnish it, or even afford the window treatments. All the while, their ARMs were fluctuating wildly. I'd hate to be caught in one now.

Jonny, you are in it for the long haul. Someone will buy those foreclosed houses on your block. But it may be a long time before that happens. Hopefully, your house won't lose too much of it's value in the meantime. And I hope your business keeps doing as well as it has been. It's the unexpected things that we don't see coming that can cause problems.


Artonio wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:19pm:
Yep it sounds very unfair that all these good people who have followed the rules and did everything legally do not get a bailout bonus. Paying ones mortgage on time every month as per agreement per contract does not go unnoticed... it reflects on your credit score.

Building equity in your home takes time and diligence... why would you risk the value of your house plummeting because five homes in your neighborhood go into foreclosure and are uninhabited ?
30 years worth of blood sweat and tears reduced down to  nearly nothing.

Sadly there is no litmus test that weeds out the speculators and idiots from those who have just fallen on hard times. It would be an interesting move though if the Gov. bought the foreclosed homes and gave them to the disabled american vets just because it's the right thing to do.

That would probably be considered too much meddling by the Gov. though.

just a thought.

with warm regards,
Tony


You know, Tony, it would be so great if the Gov. did give these homes to disabled vets, and modified them for access. After the service they have done for our country, it would be the least they could do.

And your credit score now is one of the few things you have going for you, if it's in good shape. Wonder how the bailout would affect that after possible foreclosure?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:15pm
A better idea would be..........since like it or not several of the banks in effect already are nationalized, to make them play ball directly with the people in deep. That way the 90% of people that pay on time wouldn't be directly stuck......at least they could make themselves believe it. Everybody in the country has been denying reality for a long time. Who really didn't see this coming?

When we dig out of this mess it would be nice if we don't go back to the economic illusion that greedy twerps have settled for for so long.

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:30pm

purpleydog wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm:
Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it.


That didn't happen - banks were not required to loan money to bad risks. The big thing is that most banks and brokers found that they could make more money from loan fees, and then sell the loan to someone else, who bundled it and sold it to some other sucker who would eventually take the hit. So they got a carrot for every loan they made, and there was no stick if they made a stupid loan to someone who obviously could never pay. This broke the market, and it occurred from deregulation.

There are some banks out there that kept the old policy of holding on to all the loans they made. Guess what? Those banks are not in trouble, because they were able to use discretion when making loans, and they most importantly, they wanted to keep using discretion in making loans.

This is the problem, and it was not caused by the community reinvestment act of 1977:


Quote:
Packer was told of a “bank teller with an annual salary of $23,000 who had received a $216,000 mortgage, with no money down and no income verification —- not even a phone call from the lender.”

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That teller was a fool, but the lender was an even bigger scoundrel. The teller will lose that home (no way to make those payments on that salary, even with the proposed bill) ... but the individuals that profited from the stupid loans have already spent the money, or deposited it somewhere safe, and it will hard to show that they even broke the law ... because the government deregulated. Were the brokers stupid? Were they unethical?  Doesn't matter if it isn't illegal anymore.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:37pm

purpleydog wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm:
Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. People jumping at the chance to get jumbo mortgages, because the bank said they could afford it. Same people getting more house than they need, and can't afford to furnish it, or even afford the window treatments. All the while, their ARMs were fluctuating wildly. I'd hate to be caught in one now.


BINGO.....Now I have to pay them to make their payments ontime?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:53pm

monty wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:30pm:

purpleydog wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm:
Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it.

This broke the market, and it occurred from deregulation.



Deregulation?

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by ANNSIE on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 6:38pm

I am hearing both sides and just want to venture my personal view, from someone who came from a different government system.

Many Asian immigrants who moved to European countries like the US, Canada and Australia have done very very well financially. Its because they came with a different mentality. Where they come from there is no one to bail you out, no outside help, you take full responsibility and if things get tough you simply knuckle down and wear it out. If some disaster happens and you loose out totally due to no fault of your own, you cry for a day then you work twice as hard to rebuild.

My grandmother lived through the WWII then the Vietnam war. Her house was bombed and completely destroyed 5 times. She was a widow with 6 children. She rebuilt 5 times without any help from any government. By the time she passed away, she had built 2 houses and a thriving importing/exporting business.

With that same mentality, my family came to New Zealand in 1984. For the first 3 years, the 5 of us lived in a one bedroom granny flat and we didnt have a car. I slept on the floor and did my home work on the floor. We all had at least 2 jobs even the children. The first home we could afford was a 2 bedroom tiny little flat with no yard. Mum and dad had a room, my sister and I shared a room and my brother slept in the lounge, he didnt get a room. We could have borrowed more and bought a bigger house because between 5 of us we had 10 different jobs, but mum and dad did not want to over extend ourselves. They made sure that the mortage payment was not more than 30% of the total income. In the late 1980's when the interest rate jumped to 16% and thousands of houses were foreclosed all around us, we were fine.

Now if I loose everything I have, it doesnt scare me because I have learnt how to live through tough times and how to rebuild from zero.

The problem with the Western countries like US or Australia is the mentality of the people. The people here believe that a certain standard of living is their rights, not a priviledge. If they cant afford that lifestyle than someone else will have to pay for it. Either people will borrow to the hilt to pay for that lifestyle or they will expect the government to bail them out.

With that mentality, no amount of money from anywhere will be able to sustain it for long. Robbing Paul to pay Peter will only keep you afloat for a short while. The inevitable crash will come and hard.

Just my 2 cents.


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Marc on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 6:46pm

wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 6:38pm:
.............. the mentality of the people. The people here believe that a certain standard of living is their rights, not a priviledge. If they cant afford that lifestyle than someone else will have to pay for it. Either people will borrow to the hilt to pay for that lifestyle or they will expect the government to bail them out.

With that mentality, no amount of money from anywhere will be able to sustain it for long. Robbing Paul to pay Peter will only keep you afloat for a short while. The inevitable crash will come and hard.

Just my 2 cents.


Great post! The last part in particular is worth repeating. Over and over and over..........


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:00pm
:)

Hearing the perseverance of hard work and sacrifice has always riveted my attention.  Grandparents and great uncles and aunts coming through times very meager, three and more sleeping head to toe in a single bed, searching the train tracks for coal pieces spilled over the edge of rail cars, walking miles for over a year to the yard at Chrysler to be picked for work.  So many more.  Dependence on family the strongest bond.



wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 6:38pm:
Now if I loose everything I have, it doesnt scare me because I have learnt how to live through tough times and how to rebuild from zero.


It has been hard to hold high the sign "land of opportunity" lately, understandably as it has in the past also at times.  

Amazing comprehending survival in countries ravished by war.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Marc on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:07pm

Kevin_M wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:00pm:
........... Dependence on family the strongest bond.


Yet another thing worth remembering and repeating because it seems to have been forgotten in this country.


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:14pm
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." — Margaret Thatcher

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:19pm

wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:53pm:
 Deregulation?


Yes, deregulation. Specifically, the repeal of the Glass-Stegal Act of 1933, and its replacement with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999.

Under Glass-Stegal, banks were banks and brokers were brokers. Banks were held to higher standards in terms of what risk they could take, and they were prohibited from doing quite a bit.  But to 'free up the creativity of Wall Street" the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act erased most of those lines. The result was the transformation of most mortgages into "mortgage debt securities" along with the creation of trillions of dollars of collateralized debt obligations and other derivatives that no one understood, which were a big part of how we got to the current mess.

Even the Libertarians predicted it:


Quote:
Economists Robert Ekelund and Mark Thornton have criticized the {Gramm-Leach-Blilly} Act as contributing to the 2007 subprime mortgage financial crisis, arguing that while "in a world regulated by a gold standard, 100% reserve banking, and no FDIC deposit insurance" the Financial Services Modernization Act would have made "perfect sense" as a legitimate act of deregulation, under the present fiat monetary system it "amounts to corporate welfare for financial institutions and a moral hazard that will make taxpayers pay dearly".

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Batch on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:46pm

Quote:
That didn't happen - banks were not required to loan money to bad risks.


Love ya Monty, but Chris was spot on correct...  Banks were required to make the bad loans...  and that is a matter of public record.

Then Attourney General Janet - Shoot'em up at Ruby Ridge and Burn'em up at Waco Texas - Reno, bragged about filing charges against bankers who would not honor the Clintonista plan to make ARM loans to folks on welfare or folks earning minimum wage for nothing down so they could buy a home on which they could never afford to make the payments, said on Jan 15, 1997, “Some banks have simply not done business in minority neighborhoods, while others charge higher rates or add extra charges to their loans in minority areas.  We have used a two-prong approach to address this problem.  First we have worked with the banking industry that wants to do right to reform their practices, and, secondly, for those who thumbed their noses, we have sued them and we are going to do whatever is necessary.

The liberals in congress and the Clintonistas caused the Sub Prime debacle to happen by scaring the shit of bankers to make them sell these toxic loans...  and that my friend, is a matter of public record.

Meanwhile, Chris Dodd, Barny Frank, and then comrade Senator Obama, were all having a Great Adventure in Social Engineering by voting to continue this terrible practice, all the while taking the largest of the kick-back "political contributions" from none other than then CEO Frankin Raines of Fannie Mae who cooked the books in order to make his quota by less than 5 dollars buying and selling these "Toxic" and "guaranteed to fail" loans to other financial institutions so he could get his bonus.

Raines earned more than $52 million in performance and other bonuses from 1998 through 2003. This was in addition to some $38 million in salaries and other compensation.  This my friend is also a matter of public record only the liberal media was so far in the tank they couldn't let you know...  this is also a matter of public record.

I don't know about you, but I find it very troubling that Dodd and Frank who had a major hand in causing the Sub Prime debacle, and who were in a position of oversight in congress to prevent it and did nothing, are now backing the most lame-ass Marxist plan to redistribute wealth to the same folks that couldn't pay for their loans in the first place so they can default on them again... in less than a year...  and it will only cost taxpayers $150Billion not $79 Billion... but that's not all...

Guess what folks...  A Marxist trained President, hell bent on economic justice and redistribution of wealth, along with the help of a socialist led kangaroo Congress have also given us Universal Health Care...   Aaannnd...  we didn't even know it was in the economic porkulus package...   aaannnd Congress wasn't even provided time read the bill before they passed it for the President to sign into law.

The economic porkulus Act will also increase our annual income tax by up to $4,000 a year starting in 2010...    for the next 30 years...   Aaannnd...  Thaaat's just to pay the interest on the $787 Billion in Treasury Notes.  

Buuut... don't worry... cause comrade President Obama will announce Monday that he plans to cut the nation’s projected annual deficit in half by the end of his first term...  I'd watch this reeeeeal close...  The liberal leadership already has plans to nationalize our 301k and IRAs after they nationalize the banks and oil companies to pay for welfare and housing for the 20 million illegal aliens... aaafter they grant them amnesty.

Again... this is all a matter of public record...

Finally, as I've been reading The American Recovery And Reinvestment Act Of 2009 a.k.a. the so-called stimulation / porkulus package since the 17th and doing key phrase searches, I found that this Act also makes 264 amendments to existing US CODE[/b].

Some of these amendments are benign and others not.  Moreover, none of these amendments were afforded meaningful time for debated, nor was meaningful time provided to read this act in its final version before a vote was called for passage.

IMHO, all who were responsible for this egregious conduct of congressional leadership in gundecking this act through the legislative process, and all that voted in its favor, are guilty of gross dereliction of duty to the office held, the constitution, and to the people of the united states.

Again... these actions are all a matter of public record...
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It's going to get worse...  a lot worse... Aaannnd...  there's nothing we can do about it unless we vote these idiots out of office...

Take care, read, think... then act.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 9:56pm
Ok, Batch,

leaving aside issues of Clinton and Obama derangement syndrome you raised in your post, how do you account for the fact that most of the bad loans were issued under that other President between Clinton and Obama, who was in charge of interpreting and enforcing the law, and could have suspended provisions and/or called for a new law but didn't??

Or the fact that only 25% of bad loans came from lending institutions that were governed by the CRA law?  

Or the fact that banks that stayed with the old system of only writing reasonable loans and keeping them for the life of the note are doing quite well?

Or the fact that middle class whites account for such a large percent of loans that are now going bad? The CRA is a scapegoat, an attempt to draw attention away from the real problems.  

If only the ghettos and barrios were seeing foreclosures, most Americans wouldn't be all that alarmed.  But the problem is every where. The people that went out on a limb to buy multiple houses as investments were not the poor minorities that the CRA tried (unsuccessfully) to protect. The half-built suburbs of $300,000 homes that were abandoned before they were finished weren't being financed by people who got 'special treatment' under the CRA.

A teacher once said something about the family farmer ... you don't get up in the middle of the night and go out into the cold to save a crop that belongs to the commune or the corporation, but you do if its your crop. The fact that most mortgage lenders knew that they wouldn't have to live with the loans meant there was no reason to read and review them - as long as the deal was done, they got their fees and commission ... no need to try to make deals that would protect either the borrower or the person who would buy the bundled mortgage security.


Quote:
... approximately 50% of the subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies that were not regulated by the CRA, and another 25% to 30% came from only partially CRA regulated bank subsidiaries and affiliates... institutions fully regulated by CRA made "perhaps one in four" sub-prime loans ... the worst and most widespread abuses occurred in the institutions with the least federal oversight.

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Quote:
Rating agency Moody's said last month that it was revising upwards the expected losses on 90% of Alt-A mortgage securities. It describes the collapse as 'unprecedented for its asset class'. These are not the subprime households who would probably have been better off without a mortgage in the first place. Alt-A borrowers tend to be middle-income earners.

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 12:36am
Just out of curiosity, Batch: Has there ever been anything good at all ever done by a politician not part of your impression of Republican or conservative politics?

I'd like to know.

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 7:20am
Ooo, ooo - I know, I know: Kennedy cut taxes once.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by catlind on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 10:49am
Ok, back to the dumb questions....
[quote]Economists Robert Ekelund and Mark Thornton have criticized the {Gramm-Leach-Blilly} Act as contributing to the 2007 subprime mortgage financial crisis, arguing that while "in a world regulated by a gold standard, 100% reserve banking, and no FDIC deposit insurance" the Financial Services Modernization Act would have made "perfect sense" as a legitimate act of deregulation, under the present fiat monetary system it "amounts to corporate welfare for financial institutions and a moral hazard that will make taxpayers pay dearly".

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Is the US economy and currency standard based on the gold standard or not?  I keep getting conflicting reports on this, and from what I've read, it seems that it is not.

And if it's not, what does that mean in the long term for our children and grandchildren?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:05am
The US economy hasn't been tied to the gold standard since the early 70's.

What it means for our heirs, I don't know. I suppose my parents and grandparents asked the same question back then.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:16am
We've technically been off the gold standard since the early 1930s.

It's always instructive to note how everything good for we the people comes from at our expense and when it crumbles because it never was good for us, we are to blame.

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by catlind on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:31am
Ok thanks for the info....

So basically our money is toilet paper.  Sometimes I think returning to the barter system sans paper would be better - back to basics so to speak

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:51am

catlind wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:31am:
Ok thanks for the info....

So basically our money is toilet paper.  Sometimes I think returning to the barter system sans paper would be better - back to basics so to speak

No, paper money is worth whatever the recipient deems it's worth. You can still buy a loaf of bread for 2 pieces of "toilet paper" because the bread dealer accepts it.

Watch for this, however, in the weeks and months ahead: growing inflation. Maybe not to pre WWII Germany levels, but it's coming.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by catlind on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 12:27pm
Believe me, that's a very real fear of mine.  Perhaps there will be no run on the banks, but I personally don't have a mattress stuffed with money.  The only thing I have is a house with a mortgage that is within my means (30 yr fixed)....too bad I'm having to rent it out because the military saw fit to send us elsewhere.

I shouldn't complain, Clark is one of the very elite few who actually has job security (for now at least)


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:51pm
People are getting pissed!

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Batch on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:57pm
Ah…  Monty…  Well done.  Spoken like a true liberal…  Triangulation, obfuscation, misdirection, cover and deception…  Dayum…  you hit’em all.

Congress writes the laws...  or at least it did before comrade President Obama was elected...  

Your question infers most of the bad loans were made during President Bush’s two terms in office.  While this is true, I’m equally pissed at the Republicans in Congress for not being more forceful in trying to shut down the subprime practice in 2004 when the number of these toxic loans more than doubled.  However, your question begs the analogy that a mother’s stomach grows more rapidly in the 3rd trimester and that it achieves its greatest size at birth, but fails to acknowledge the fact that pregnancy began 9 months earlier.  

It’s a matter of public record that the spike in the number of these toxic subprime loans started in 2004 were Republicans raised the warning flags and didn’t start to decline until 2007.  Having said that, it’s also true that this social experiment in making loans to people who could not pay for them started during the Clintonista regime and that comrades Pelosi and Reid along with their respective politburo leaders, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, have continued to support this practice.

Moreover, the most powerful committees in Congress with the responsibility to oversee banking and housing were, and still are, under the leadership of none other than Barney Frank and Chris Dodd since 2006 yet the practice continued well into 2008.

As far as who and from what socioeconomic level took out these toxic subprime loans...  Wanting to live beyond means is an equal opportunity temptation...

Perhaps the following quotes and video will shed a little light on this topic.



Quote:

Thursday, October 2, 2008
Barney Frank: “I want to roll the dice”

Wall Street Journal (doing the legwork McCain can’t be bothered with) looks at what the Democrats said about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (circa 2003).

Greenspan outlines the risk of Freddie and Fannie:

“What we're trying to avert is we have in our financial system right now two very large and growing financial institutions which are very effective and are essentially capable of gaining market shares in a very major market to a large extent as a consequence of what is perceived to be a subsidy that prevents the markets from adjusting appropriately, prevents competition and the normal adjustment processes that we see on a day-by-day basis from functioning in a way that creates stability. . .”

“And so what we have is a structure here in which a very rapidly growing organization, holding assets and financing them by subsidized debt, is growing in a manner which really does not in and of itself contribute to either home ownership or necessarily liquidity or other aspects of the financial markets. . . “

Here are some of my favorite responses from the left side of the aisle:

Rep. Frank: “I do think I do not want the same kind of focus on safety and soundness that we have in OCC [Office of the Comptroller of the Currency] and OTS [Office of Thrift Supervision]. I want to roll the dice a little bit more in this situation towards subsidized housing.

And:

Rep. Frank: “I believe there has been more alarm raised about potential unsafety and unsoundness than, in fact, exists.”

And:

Rep. Waters: “However, I have sat through nearly a dozen hearings where, frankly, we were trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Housing is the economic engine of our economy, and in no community does this engine need to work more than in mine. With last week's hurricane and the drain on the economy from the war in Iraq, we should do no harm to these GSEs. We should be enhancing regulation, not making fundamental change.

Mr. Chairman, we do not have a crisis at Freddie Mac, and in particular at Fannie Mae, under the outstanding leadership of Mr. Frank Raines [who may or may not have been an advisor to Obama -ed]. Everything in the 1992 act has worked just fine. In fact, the GSEs have exceeded their housing goals. . . .

The following video lets you hear these words from Barney Frank and Maxine Waters for yourself…  It contains a more related clips here for good measure…  you be the judge…

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Hmm…  Ok…  If the truth about sub prime is too difficult to accept…  and I hate to resort to a jump bid of Five No Trump…  But could you please explain the liberal’s rationale for 50 million abortions here in the US since Roe vs Wade went into effect in 1973?

I welcome your comments.  I sense there is much upon which we can agree and that this thread with its differing viewpoints provides a healthy venue that will enable its readers and contributors an opportunity to better shape their opinions.

Take care,
V/R, Batch

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Brew on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:02pm

wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:51pm:
People are getting pissed!

Rightfully so:

Major stock market indexes fall to 1997 levels

Dow, S&P 500 fall to 1997 levels as sagging confidence pulls stocks lower; Dow falls 251

Tim Paradis, AP Business Writer
Monday February 23, 2009, 6:31 pm EST

NEW YORK (AP) -- Wall Street has turned the clock back to 1997. Investors unable to extinguish their worries about a recession that has no end in sight dumped stocks again Monday. The Dow Jones industrial average tumbled 251 points to its lowest close since May 7, 1997, while the Standard & Poor's 500 index logged its lowest finish since April 11, 1997. It's as if the decade's dot-com surge, collapse and subsequent recovery never occurred.

The Dow is just over 100 points from 7,000. Both indexes have lost about half their value since hitting record highs in October 2007.

"People left and right are throwing in the towel," said Keith Springer, president of Capital Financial Advisory Services.

Investors pounded most financial stocks even as government agencies led by the Treasury Department said they would launch a revamped bank rescue program this week. The plan includes the option of increasing government ownership in financial institutions without having to pour more taxpayer money into them.

Although the government has said it doesn't want to nationalize banks, many investors are clearly still concerned that this could be a possibility as banks continue to suffer severe losses because of the recession. They're also worried that banks' losses will keep escalating as the recession sends more borrowers into default.

"The biggest thing I see here is the incredible pessimism," Springer said. "The government is doing a lousy job of alleviating fears."

The Treasury and other agencies issued a statement after The Wall Street Journal reported Citigroup is in talks for the government to boost its stake in the bank to as much as 40 percent. Analysts said the market, which initially rose on the statement, wanted more details of the government's plans.

"It's only a very partial picture of what we may get," said Quincy Krosby, chief investment strategist at The Hartford. "This proverbial lack of clarity is damaging market psychology."

Meanwhile, technology stocks fell after The Journal reported that Yahoo Inc.'s new chief executive plans to reorganize the company. But the selling came across the market as pessimism about the recession and its toll on companies deepened.

"There's no where to hide anymore," said Jim Herrick, director of equity trading at Baird & Co.

The market's decline extends massive losses from last week when the major stock indexes tumbled more than 6 percent. While falling to their 1997 levels, the major indexes plunged through the lows they reached in late November, at the height of the credit crisis.

"There's no main driver of the down day," said Ryan Detrick, senior technical strategist at Schaeffer's Investment Research. "There's just so much skepticism in the overall market and (the question is) is the government doing proper things to get us out of this problem. Obviously the stock market is voting no."

The Dow dropped 250.89, or 3.41 percent, to 7,114.78. It last closed this low on May 7, 1997 when it finished at 7,085.65. The Dow hasn't traded below the 7,000 mark since October 1997. The index is down 14 percent over the past 10 sessions.

The Standard & Poor's 500 index fell 26.72, or 3.47 percent, to 743.33. It was the lowest close since April 11, 1997, when it ended at 737.65.

When the indexes were last at these levels, they were in their ascendancy, climbing amid the dot-com boom. But 1997 was also the year that saw stock prices later plunge amid a growing financial crisis in Asia. Far away from Wall Street, it was the year that the U.S. first heard the name Monica Lewinsky, whose relationship with President Bill Clinton led to his impeachment and trial. And it was the year that the world was stunned by the death of Britain's Princess Diana, on Aug. 31.

On Monday, the S&P 500 did close above its Nov. 21 trading low of 741.02. But the 14-month recession has decimated the major indexes: The Dow is down 49.8 percent from its record highs of October 2007, while the S&P 500 index is down 52.5 percent.

Detrick warned that a move below the S&P's Nov. 21 low could set off "violent selling" as even more confidence drains from the market.

The technology-laden Nasdaq composite index dropped 53.51, or 3.71 percent, to 1,387.72.

Investors looking for a bottom also dumped smaller stocks. The Russell 2000 index of smaller companies fell 16.38 or 3.99 percent, to 394.58.

Declining issues outnumbered advancers by more than 6 to 1 on the New York Stock Exchange, where consolidated volume came to 6.35 billion shares compared with heavy volume of 8.12 billion shares on Friday.

Morgan Smith, investment counselor for Burns Advisory Group, said investors are now pushing out their expectations for a recovery in the industry until after this year.

"Everyone is trying to grasp at some type of bottom," Smith said. "The market is just trying to figure out if it has priced in a worst-case scenario."

Among tech stocks, Hewlett-Packard Co. fell $1.96, or 6.3 percent, to $29.28, and Intel Corp. dove 70 cents, or 5.5 percent, to $12.08.

Other big losers included General Electric Co., which dropped to a 14-year low of $8.80, but ended down 53 cents, or 5.7 percent, at $8.85. Aluminum producer Alcoa Inc. tumbled 48 cents, or 7.6 percent, to $5.81.

Some financial stocks managed to gain, including Citigroup, which rose 19 cents, or 9.7 percent, to $2.14, and Bank of America Corp., which gained 12 cents, or 3.2 percent, to $3.91.

Bond prices were mixed. The yield on the benchmark 10-year Treasury note, which moves opposite its price, fell to 2.76 percent from 2.79 percent late Friday. The yield on the three-month T-bill, considered one of the safest investments, rose to 0.29 percent from 0.26 percent Friday.

The dollar was mixed against other major currencies, while gold prices fell.

Light, sweet crude fell $1.59 to settle at $38.44 per barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Overseas, Britain's FTSE 100 fell 0.99 percent, Germany's DAX index fell 1.95 percent, and France's CAC-40 slipped 0.82 percent. Earlier, Japan's Nikkei stock average fell 0.54 percent.

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:08pm

wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:51pm:
People are getting pissed!

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Yeah.  Um....


Quote:
Santelli: The government is promoting bad behavior because we certainly don‘t want to put stimulus forth and give people a whopping $8 or $10 in their check and think they ought to save it and in terms of modifications.


I listened to that, and had no idea what that means. So I looked up the transcript, which doesn't help at all.  Maybe Sarah Palin can figure it out for us.  ;)

Was watching Mad Money over the weekend, and Jim Cramer said a big cause of the Great Depression was that Hoover wouldn't act ... he didn't want to do anything that would reward deadbeats in any way. So he let the economy collapse. That really taught 'em!

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:16pm

monty wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:08pm:

wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:51pm:
People are getting pissed!

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Yeah.  Um....


Quote:
Santelli: The government is promoting bad behavior because we certainly don‘t want to put stimulus forth and give people a whopping $8 or $10 in their check and think they ought to save it and in terms of modifications.


Was watching Mad Money over the weekend, and Jim Cramer said a big cause of the Great Depression was that Hoover wouldn't act ... he didn't want to do anything that would reward deadbeats in any way. So he let the economy collapse. That really taught 'em!


You do have a link for that, right?

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Opus on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:16pm

Redd wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 9:21pm:
Me either.  Can't afford cable anymore. :-/


 PBS is a broadcast channel so you you can watch it free unless you live in an apartment and live where you need a big rooftop antenna to receive stations.

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Paul

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:29pm

Batch wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:57pm:
Your question infers most of the bad loans were made during President Bush’s two terms in office.  While this is true, I’m equally pissed at the Republicans in Congress for not being more forceful in trying to shut down the subprime practice in 2004 when the number of these toxic loans more than doubled.  However, your question begs the analogy that a mother’s stomach grows more rapidly in the 3rd trimester and that it achieves its greatest size at birth, but fails to acknowledge the fact that pregnancy began 9 months earlier.  


The CRA was passed in 1977 - did it take the terms of Carter, Reagan, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush and Bush (30 years) for the baby to come to term?  I don't think so.

You still haven't explained how all the non-minority, non-poor got loans for more houses than they could live in without any sort of reasonable policies or verification of what they put on the application .... or the fact that most most private lenders that made the most egregious loans were not covered under the CRA at all.  Those aren't subprime loans, merely really bad loans.


Batch wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:57pm:
Hmm…  Ok…  If the truth about sub prime is too difficult to accept…  and I hate to resort to a jump bid of Five No Trump…  But could you please explain the liberal’s rationale for 50 million abortions here in the US since Roe vs Wade went into effect in 1973?

Take care,
V/R, Batch


Why must you link everything in this thread to pregnancy?  

No, I don't care to muddle a discussion of economics with the issues related to abortion.  You can start your own thread on that - but don't expect me to read it or post there.  8-)

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by monty on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:41pm

wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:16pm:
You do have a link for that, right?


You betcha!  All of them.  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 10:10pm

Batch wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 8:57pm:
Could you please explain the liberal’s rationale for 50 million abortions here in the US since Roe vs Wade went into effect in 1973?


Actually it's pretty easy to explain, but I'll leave it at that. :-X

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Batch on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 10:35pm

Charlie wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 12:36am:
Just out of curiosity, Batch: Has there ever been anything good at all ever done by a politician not part of your impression of Republican or conservative politics?

I'd like to know.

Charlie


Charlie, That’s an excellent question.  Thank you for the opportunity to respond…  

The simple answer is yes…  there have been some politicians past and present that have acquitted themselves with distinction doing far more good in elected office than not.  

Off the top, I’d say Presidents Lincoln and Truman made the best of terrible situations they faced by making the tough decisions to keep our great Nation united and free.  I consider them both Great Americans and two of my favorite Presidents.

Senators Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson and Warren G. Magnuson from the State of Washington were true anti-Communist Democrats that fought the evil empire of the USSR and helped build and maintain a strong Defense as called for in the Constitution.  Magnuson served in the United States Navy during World War II aboard the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, seeing heavy combat in the Pacific Theatre.  Both were Great Americans and Great Senators!

I voted for both Jackson and Magnuson even though my family has been staunch members of the GOP since Lincoln was President.  

On the local level Joyce and I voted for Corey Stewart as Chairman of Prince William County Board of County Supervisors.  He is another great American and elected official.  In keeping with his first and foremost campaign promise, he passed a County Ordinance in 2007 allowing county law officers to strengthen its Zero Tolerance stand against illegal aliens.  

The ordinance passed on July 10th, 2007.  The initial enforcement came into effect on January 1 2008, and came into full enforcement on March 3rd, 2008.  The resolution empowers local police officers to inquire about the legal status of suspected illegal aliens when they are suspected of violating a local law or ordinance, expands the county's participation in the Section 287(g) Program, and restricts some taxpayer-funded public benefits from illegal aliens

When a vehicle is stopped for any violation of State vehicle law, PW Police do the standard “Wants & Warrants” and an automatic cross check of the driver’s license and vehicle registration along with another automated check for US Citizenship.  If the query response indicates a non-US Citizen status, the driver must produce a valid Green Card or Passport…  If vehicle operators are unable to produce a valid Green Card or Passport they are taken into custody and turned over to ICE within 12 hours for deportation.  Other vehicle occupants are subject to the same ordinance at the discretion of the arresting officer.

This ordinance went into effect on the 1st of January 2008.  In the last 10 days of 2007, over 500 homes were vacated as most of the occupants moved under cover of darkness from Prince William County to other “sanctuary” counties in Virginia and Maryland.  

Now here’s the real payoff and benefit to the citizens of Prince William County:

The DC Examiner reported in June, 2008 that crime decreased 22% in Prince William County (the largest crime reduction in seven years) while Fairfax County saw an increase of 6%. Murders were down in 2007 by 44% despite illegal aliens being responsible for five of the nine murders in 2007.

As of June 2008, The Prince William County Adult Detention Center had issued 816 immigration detainers under the Section 287(g) Program, and turned 740 criminal illegal aliens over to the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement for deportation since July of 2007.  These illegal aliens were arrested for crimes including attempted murder, cocaine possession, grand larceny, felony hit-and-run, shoplifting, assault, DUI, identify fraud and sexual abuse.

In addition to the identification of illegal aliens and crackdown on illegal alien criminal behavior, other significant public benefits have been observed.  These include the following:

   * Prince William County Schools reported a mid-year drop in ESOL enrollments that saves county taxpayers at least $6-12 million annually.  All jurisdictions surrounding Prince William County, including those that have seen a steady decline in student enrollments, are reporting significant increases in ESOL enrollments.  By May 1st of 2008, 1,200 ESOL students have been reported as transferring to other Northern Virginia jurisdictions, each of which costs taxpayers between $2,500 and $5,000 above the base student cost.  This does not include the number of students who have repatriated to their home countries. (source: DC Examiner)
   * The Town of Dumfries has reported that complaints of residential overcrowding have gone from over 80 annually to zero. (source: Manassas Journal-Messenger)
   * Prince William Hospital has indicated that the number of requests for prenatal care for the indigent has gone from over fifty a month to five. (source: Prince William Hospital)
   * The appearance of graffiti attributed to criminal gangs such as MS-13, Surenos-13 and the "South Side Locos" has dramatically reduced. (source: member reports)
   * Residential overcrowding in several neighborhoods in the Manassas area has abated significantly since enforcement of the Rule of Law Resolution began.  Complaints were down 62% in 2007 over 2006. (source: Prince William County Police Department)
   * Traffic safety has improved.  Alcohol-related fatal crashes were down 25% and vehicle accident fatalities are down 31%.  Total vehicle accidents are down 17.4%. (source: Prince William County Police Department)
   * As of November 30, 2008 Prince William County has detained 1,353 illegal aliens of which 1,269 have already been turned over to the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement for deportation.

The Rule of Law Resolution is yielding significant positive benefits for county taxpayers, the quality of life in our communities, and the safety and security of our families.

I think you’ll agree with the law-abiding residents of Prince William County that the results of this ordinance have been very positive and beneficial …

BTW, my neighbor Mulu and his wife Janet are naturalized US Citizens who emigrated legally from Ethiopia over 12 years ago.   Janet roasts up some great coffee and serves excellent Ethiopian meals…

Take care and thanks again for the great question.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 10:43pm

Charlie wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 12:36am:
Just out of curiosity, Batch: Has there ever been anything good at all ever done by a politician not part of your impression of Republican or conservative politics?

I'd like to know.

Charlie


I know it's not my opinion called for, but if I waited an initial newbie intro would be my only post.   ;)


In June '51 on the Senate floor, Joey McCarthy accused Gen. George C. Marshall as the principal culprit behind "A conspiracy so immense and an infamy so black as to dwarf any previous venture in the history of man."  Truman or Marshall would not answer directly, or "get down in the gutter with a gutter snipe."

The Pres held a meeting with some members of Congress and a handful of others about what to do.  Marshall, an architect of victory in WWII and central figure in anti-Communist actions 1945-51 had rejoined the administration Sep '50 as secretary of defense to help with problems of the Korean War.

I'd guess if someone reeeeeally wanted to see it, ANYONE can be denounced as comrade or not, friend or foe.  Kinda the sort of thing you see in Communist countries of the time.  

A certain wise and patient senator from TX told Truman to hold his fire, predicting McCarthy would overreach himself.  That opportunity arose years later in '54 when this same senator arranged a certain McCarthy hearing to be televised to a mass audience.  A spectacular display of self-destruction.





Senator:  LBJ


That might be an "anything".

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 24th, 2009 at 9:08am
Wow Kev..... you're making me feel old. We had TV during the McCarthy hearings. I was too young to know what was going on of course. Kinda bled into the Kefauver hearings too.

It's a shame that abortion has become part of political debate. It's nearly done in politics.....as is displayed here. So much time and energy has been spent looking for acceptable socially correct politicians by pro-lifers, that it forces the Sara Palins of the world on serious politicians. McCain....if it weren't for the crash....might have had a shot if he hadn't had to deal with the now fading impact of social conservatives....at least among younger voters.... in the country. For the most part, the GOP uses them only to get elected. Abortion tends to be put on a back burner after November elections.

This depressing thing has affected the makeup of Congress in such a way that only "safe" debate on anything but social conversative programs is allowed......which brings out some awfully silly crap that has no business in Congress....and of course opening up as something common, the description of opponents as fascists or commies.

Bleaugh.

Charlie

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Batch on Feb 24th, 2009 at 1:24pm

monty wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 9:29pm:
No, I don't care to muddle a discussion of economics with the issues related to abortion.  You can start your own thread on that - but don't expect me to read it or post there.  


Sorry…  I know that’s hard to justify.  However, I’m still a little confused on where you stand on the cause of all of this so let’s get back on message with something closer to your strike zone.  Can you spin us some comments on the following two articles?

Thanks again,

V/R, Batch

Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending

By STEVEN A. HOLMES
Published: September 30, 1999

In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans.

''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''

Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''

Under Fannie Mae's pilot program, consumers who qualify can secure a mortgage with an interest rate one percentage point above that of a conventional, 30-year fixed rate mortgage of less than $240,000 -- a rate that currently averages about 7.76 per cent. If the borrower makes his or her monthly payments on time for two years, the one percentage point premium is dropped.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings.

Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they add that the move is intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit ratings than non-Hispanic whites.

Home ownership has, in fact, exploded among minorities during the economic boom of the 1990's. The number of mortgages extended to Hispanic applicants jumped by 87.2 per cent from 1993 to 1998, according to Harvard University's Joint Center for Housing Studies. During that same period the number of African Americans who got mortgages to buy a home increased by 71.9 per cent and the number of Asian Americans by 46.3 per cent.

In contrast, the number of non-Hispanic whites who received loans for homes increased by 31.2 per cent.

Despite these gains, home ownership rates for minorities continue to lag behind non-Hispanic whites, in part because blacks and Hispanics in particular tend to have on average worse credit ratings.

In July, the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed that by the year 2001, 50 percent of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's portfolio be made up of loans to low and moderate-income borrowers. Last year, 44 percent of the loans Fannie Mae purchased were from these groups.

The change in policy also comes at the same time that HUD is investigating allegations of racial discrimination in the automated underwriting systems used by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to determine the credit-worthiness of credit applicants.

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Public funds to pay for private debt
Houston aims to clear balances so some can buy homes
By CAROLYN FEIBEL Copyright 2009 Houston Chronicle
Feb. 23, 2009, 10:19PM

Houston taxpayers could start footing the bill to help first-time homebuyers pay off debts and improve their credit scores, under a proposal before City Council this week.

The “Credit Score Enhancement Program” will give up to $3,000 in grants to individuals who are trying to qualify for mortgages through the city’s homebuyers assistance program. City officials say some applicants fall short of eligibility by only 10 or 20 points on their credit scores, and paying off some debt balances can quickly improve their numbers.

The proposal has aroused critics who say the city should not use public funds to help people pay down car loans, credit card balances, or other debts — even if the slight credit bump would help them realize the dream of home- ownership.

“We just can’t give away government money to help people with their credit scores,” Councilman Mike Sullivan said Monday. “You’re giving them other taxpayers’ money to pay off the bills.”

Councilwoman Anne Clutterbuck called the program well intentioned but said it would go too far.

“If this credit crisis has taught us anything, we need to focus on paying off our debts and saving more,” she said. “Using government money to help someone pay off their debts is not the same as asking them to pay off their debts themselves.”

The $444,000 for the program is leftover money from a $1.5 million appropriation the city made for emergency home and roof repairs after Hurricane Ike.

The city has three programs that provide grants for down payments and closing costs for qualified homebuyers. The most generous one offers a $37,500 grant to buy a home that costs $135,000 or less, but only in certain disadvantaged Houston neighborhoods the city is trying to revitalize. Participants cannot earn more than 80 percent of the Houston median income.

Affordable housing advocates were cautiously optimistic about the proposal Monday. The tightening credit market has made it harder for previously qualified families to get mortgages, said Stephan Fairfield, president of Covenant Community Capital Corp., a Houston nonprofit that helps low-income families build assets.

Some banks previously had accepted credit scores of 580 or 600 as a qualifying threshold, but most are now requiring 620, Fairfield said.

“New tools are needed to help families move forward towards home ownership,” he said. “If there are lenders that are offering loan approvals subject to retiring the outstanding payables, or if there is something that can help them get over the credit score threshold, it certainly makes sense.”

John Henneberger, co-director of the Texas Low-Income Housing Information Service, called the Houston plan “a very aggressive approach” to housing assistance. He said he needed to know more details but ventured that it could work if the city provided a good pre-purchase homebuyer education program. The city requires all applicants to complete an educational program.

Henneberger said the subprime meltdown and global financial crisis has made housing advocates take a “more conservative tack.”

“We’ve certainly learned that we don’t do low-income people a whole lot of favors when we get them overly extended on credit.”
‘A bad idea’

Anti-tax activists also cited the harsh lessons of the housing crash and recession.

“I just don’t see any way someone could justify this with everything that has gone on in the credit market,” said Michael Quinn Sullivan, president of Texans for Fiscal Responsibility. “This is precisely what got us into it, with the playing fast and loose with the credit score.”

“One would think from the federal problem we’ve just had, the city of Houston officials would have learned from that,” said Peggy Venable, state director of Americans for Prosperity, a limited government advocacy group. “It’s a bad idea.”

Program backers defended the proposal, saying it certainly is not for people with poor or damaged credit.

“We don’t talk to them about this unless their credit score is pretty close,” said Brian Stoker, community banking manager for Amegy Bank. The bank is one of the lenders the city uses for its affordable-housing programs.

“For somebody who really qualifies and should have a home, it doesn’t take much to help them get there,” Stoker said. “I think it would be a really innovative and good program. And, of course, it’s not for everybody.”

The city made 130 grants to homebuyers last year and hopes to raise that to 540 in 2009, according to Juan Chavez, manager of the city’s Homebuyers Assistance Program.

“What we’ve seen is that $3,000 will increase a credit score significantly and relatively fast,” Chavez said.

Not every applicant will need that much, and the eligibility will be very strict, he added. “We wanted to be conservative in this case and concentrate only on those folks who have overextended as opposed to somebody who needed a lot of hand-holding to repair their credit.”

carolyn.feibel@chron.com

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 24th, 2009 at 2:50pm
As I have read the ebb and flow of this thread, I can't help but feel reaffirmed in my opinion that the Government has, and wants, us divided. To have the luxury of pointing to the other Party for all of the problems that are heaped upon the Citizens is divine. It is truly a world class work of art as is revealed in the distinct camps of thought contained in this small cross section of people.

What has it wrought? Continued divisiveness by corrupt oligarchy that truly believes it knows what's better for you and uses its power to enforce that belief upon you. Career politicians who are bought and paid for by lobbyist that are singular in their goal. And they keep getting reelected. Amazing!

But what really separates us? Why can we not land on reasonable Common Good? It's because we are divided. It's because we fight for a certain side and fail to explore and define the things we have in common. Those losers in Washington are ruining our lives and all they can do is continue to blame the other side. Folks...they are losers of a higher order. And, until we decide to stop watching and bitching about it from our petty liner thoughts, we will loose this Nation.

What do we have in common? Food, shelter health and security... that's about it. Are these concerns Republican or Democrat. No, but until we step away from where these losers want us corralled, we can only blame ourselves for the result. Are we so simple that we can believe only in a liberal or conservative bent? Are we that narrow?

Become active in Government affairs on every level. Become a smart voter and stay on the bastards until they get it. They have banked on you not doing so.

Happy Mardi Gras everyone.

Steve G

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 24th, 2009 at 5:29pm
Actually.....and I really believe this: Most of these guys in Washington are decent sorts. They get stuck sometimes following ridiculous old ideas but most of the time they get somewhere back in the real world. Those that don't are either voted out eventually or wind up one of the old lunatic curmudgeons....there have been some truly bizarre characters over the years.

Anyway, lets hope these guys take some time to help the country rather than act like spoiled children. It is possible.  :-/

Charlie  

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Jonny on Feb 24th, 2009 at 6:04pm
While they're handing out bailout money in Washington, the Hopenchange administration is promising $900 million in American taxpayer money to bail out Gaza.

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Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Batch on Feb 24th, 2009 at 7:00pm
Charlie, Steve,

Great comments!  Thank you both.  At the risk of over simplification, we live between the two truths in life, death and taxes.  After all, none of us are getting out of this alive...  

What we want, need, and hope for between these two realities is a reasonable quality of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as laid down in the Constitution.  

Unfortunately, standing around and complaining is not an option... My hope is we will be armed with knowledge and firm in our convictions when we step into the polling booth to cast our next vote...  and not swayed by a corrupt media with it's own agenda.  If we do this, we will all be better served.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:06pm
A good site to get the low-down on our servants.  Check it out.

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SG

Title: Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Post by Charlie on Feb 25th, 2009 at 12:37am
Thanks for the Open Secrets thing. I forgot about it.

Makes ya cringe most of the time. :-/

Charlie

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