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Message started by Batch on Feb 24th, 2009 at 6:27pm

Title: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Batch on Feb 24th, 2009 at 6:27pm
Now that President Obama (please note the lack of any political or ideological euphemistic prefixes I normally use) has preempted tonight’s regularly scheduled American Idol program so he can deliver his thoughts on what he thinks you want to hear…  please be critical in your viewing of his telling oratory from the left…  and to be fair, please stay tuned to watch Governor Bobby Jindal’s comments from the right on President Obama’s content.  After all, Governor Jindal is an Oxford educated Rhodes Scholar…  

No matter the direction you point your political ball cap, this should be an enlightening evening.

I’ll be eager awaiting your views…

V/R, Batch  


Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 24th, 2009 at 7:12pm
Thanks Batch. I'm a real political junkie so I'll be busy tonight. I will say one thing: Even if the content will make some people squirm, he is fun to hear.

I've never seen a full American Idol anyway. I know that's a crime... 8-)

Charlie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Marc on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:12pm
People will hear what they want to hear, Pete.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Jonny on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:27pm
He will mostly avoid talking about ALL the taxpayers money that he is blowing, and then in the last ten minutes he will go into "We can do this, we will make this right because we are America" mode........And the media will say it was one of the greatest speeches they ever heard!


Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Artonio on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:31pm
He will tell us that regardless of what we do, we are all fucked and destined to become a 3rd world country... then he will surprise everyone and outlaw taxes, the government and any social service.

Then he will beg to have the constitution changed and offer the position of president Back to Bush...

then we will all rejoice and be festive.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:33pm
Jindal is a politican who has never had a real job outside of government.  Yeah, he saved the Dept of Health and Hospitals when he was head of DHH in this state.  But, you might want to ask all those homeless crazy people if they have a place to go (he shut the state hospitals down).   He cut mental health services, services to the elderly were cut, services to rural parishes were cut.  

He touted ethics reform as part of his campaign and then had the audacity to talk about how his ethics progam put LA among the best in the nation?  He even talked about Louisiana being on the top of the list in regards to ethics reform.  BFS.    Well, that's yet to be seen.  What's on paper doesn't always apply to the real world. read what the institute actually had to say.

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I have no use for the man.  The only person Bobby Jindal is interested in is Bobby Jindal and I can almost guarantee you that he is setting himself up to run for president in 2012.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by catlind on Feb 24th, 2009 at 9:11pm
Wonder what will be said, if anything, about the rationale of nationalizing the banks.


Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 24th, 2009 at 9:14pm

Artonio wrote on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:31pm:
He will tell us that regardless of what we do, we are all fucked and destined to become a 3rd world country... then he will surprise everyone and outlaw taxes, the government and any social service.

Then he will beg to have the constitution changed and offer the position of president Back to Bush...

then we will all rejoice and be festive.

with warm regards,
Tony

That would require a constitutional amendment, which usually takes years to implement. But you're right - America is experiencing buyer's remorse, and I'm not convinced he likes his new job.

I'll hold off on the rejoicing and festive making for now. ;)

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Jonny on Feb 24th, 2009 at 9:39pm
When he says "A trillion dollar deficit".....does that include the trillion he threw on there?

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Lobster on Feb 24th, 2009 at 10:41pm
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Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Artonio on Feb 24th, 2009 at 11:05pm

deltadarlin wrote on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:33pm:
 The only person Bobby Jindal is interested in is Bobby Jindal and I can almost guarantee you that he is setting himself up to run for president in 2012.



BINGO!!!!! You hit the nail right smack square on the head...the new dark hope for the republican party.

Funny After his talk I mentioned to Ben exactly that... He will be used as to run for the office of president.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Lip on Feb 24th, 2009 at 11:19pm
The foreclosure CRISIS is OVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Under the Obama plan if you QUALIFY, for his new refinancing implimentation, you will be able to save $ 166.66 per MONTH, therefore you'll be able to make your payments promptly, and on time.

Does he really think thats going help this situation? Because its not.

Our cost of living expenses out wiegh what we earn, even in double income households, never mind a single.

He said nothing, I heard nothing. I see nothing coming out of this election in the next four years from that speach that I haven't heard before.

Sean..........................................

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Artonio on Feb 24th, 2009 at 11:55pm
for those who missed it
....................................

February 24, 2009 · President Obama delivered his first address to a joint session of Congress on Tuesday night. Below are his remarks as prepared for delivery. Source: Office of the White House press secretary

Madame Speaker, Mr. Vice President, members of Congress and the first lady of the United States.

I've come here tonight not only to address the distinguished men and women in this great chamber, but to speak frankly and directly to the men and women who sent us here.

I know that for many Americans watching right now, the state of our economy is a concern that rises above all others. And rightly so. If you haven't been personally affected by this recession, you probably know someone who has — a friend; a neighbor; a member of your family. You don't need to hear another list of statistics to know that our economy is in crisis, because you live it every day. It's the worry you wake up with and the source of sleepless nights. It's the job you thought you'd retire from but now have lost; the business you built your dreams upon that's now hanging by a thread; the college acceptance letter your child had to put back in the envelope. The impact of this recession is real, and it is everywhere.

But while our economy may be weakened and our confidence shaken; though we are living through difficult and uncertain times, tonight I want every American to know this:

We will rebuild, we will recover, and the United States of America will emerge stronger than before.

The weight of this crisis will not determine the destiny of this nation. The answers to our problems don't lie beyond our reach. They exist in our laboratories and universities; in our fields and our factories; in the imaginations of our entrepreneurs and the pride of the hardest-working people on Earth. Those qualities that have made America the greatest force of progress and prosperity in human history we still possess in ample measure. What is required now is for this country to pull together, confront boldly the challenges we face, and take responsibility for our future once more.

Now, if we're honest with ourselves, we'll admit that for too long, we have not always met these responsibilities — as a government or as a people. I say this not to lay blame or look backwards, but because it is only by understanding how we arrived at this moment that we'll be able to lift ourselves out of this predicament.

The fact is, our economy did not fall into decline overnight. Nor did all of our problems begin when the housing market collapsed or the stock market sank. We have known for decades that our survival depends on finding new sources of energy. Yet we import more oil today than ever before. The cost of health care eats up more and more of our savings each year, yet we keep delaying reform. Our children will compete for jobs in a global economy that too many of our schools do not prepare them for. And though all these challenges went unsolved, we still managed to spend more money and pile up more debt, both as individuals and through our government, than ever before.

In other words, we have lived through an era where too often, short-term gains were prized over long-term prosperity; where we failed to look beyond the next payment, the next quarter or the next election. A surplus became an excuse to transfer wealth to the wealthy instead of an opportunity to invest in our future. Regulations were gutted for the sake of a quick profit at the expense of a healthy market. People bought homes they knew they couldn't afford from banks and lenders who pushed those bad loans anyway. And all the while, critical debates and difficult decisions were put off for some other time on some other day.

Well, that day of reckoning has arrived, and the time to take charge of our future is here.

Now is the time to act boldly and wisely — to not only revive this economy but to build a new foundation for lasting prosperity. Now is the time to jump-start job creation, restart lending, and invest in areas like energy, health care, and education that will grow our economy, even as we make hard choices to bring our deficit down. That is what my economic agenda is designed to do, and that's what I'd like to talk to you about tonight.

It's an agenda that begins with jobs.

As soon as I took office, I asked this Congress to send me a recovery plan by Presidents' Day that would put people back to work and put money in their pockets. Not because I believe in bigger government — I don't. Not because I'm not mindful of the massive debt we've inherited — I am. I called for action because the failure to do so would have cost more jobs and caused more hardships. In fact, a failure to act would have worsened our long-term deficit by assuring weak economic growth for years. That's why I pushed for quick action. And tonight, I am grateful that this Congress delivered, and pleased to say that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act is now law.

Over the next two years, this plan will save or create 3.5 million jobs. More than 90 percent of these jobs will be in the private sector — jobs rebuilding our roads and bridges; constructing wind turbines and solar panels; laying broadband and expanding mass transit.

Because of this plan, there are teachers who can now keep their jobs and educate our kids. Health care professionals can continue caring for our sick. There are 57 police officers who are still on the streets of Minneapolis tonight because this plan prevented the layoffs their department was about to make.

Because of this plan, 95 percent of the working households in America will receive a tax cut — a tax cut that you will see in your paychecks beginning on April 1.

Because of this plan, families who are struggling to pay tuition costs will receive a $2,500 tax credit for all four years of college. And Americans who have lost their jobs in this recession will be able to receive extended unemployment benefits and continued health care coverage to help them weather this storm.

I know there are some in this chamber and watching at home who are skeptical of whether this plan will work. I understand that skepticism. Here in Washington, we've all seen how quickly good intentions can turn into broken promises and wasteful spending. And with a plan of this scale comes enormous responsibility to get it right.

That is why I have asked Vice President Biden to lead a tough, unprecedented oversight effort — because nobody messes with Joe. I have told each member of my Cabinet as well as mayors and governors across the country that they will be held accountable by me and the American people for every dollar they spend. I have appointed a proven and aggressive inspector general to ferret out any and all cases of waste and fraud. And we have created a new Web site called recovery.gov so that every American can find out how and where their money is being spent.

So the recovery plan we passed is the first step in getting our economy back on track. But it is just the first step. Because even if we manage this plan flawlessly, there will be no real recovery unless we clean up the credit crisis that has severely weakened our financial system.

I want to speak plainly and candidly about this issue tonight, because every American should know that it directly affects you and your family's well-being. You should also know that the money you've deposited in banks across the country is safe; your insurance is secure; and you can rely on the continued operation of our financial system. That is not the source of concern.

The concern is that if we do not restart lending in this country, our recovery will be choked off before it even begins.

You see, the flow of credit is the lifeblood of our economy. The ability to get a loan is how you finance the purchase of everything from a home to a car to a college education; how stores stock their shelves, farms buy equipment, and businesses make payroll.

But credit has stopped flowing the way it should. Too many bad loans from the housing crisis have made their way onto the books of too many banks. With so much debt and so little confidence, these banks are now fearful of lending out any more money to households, to businesses, or to each other. When there is no lending, families can't afford to buy homes or cars. So businesses are forced to make layoffs. Our economy suffers even more, and credit dries up even further.

That is why this administration is moving swiftly and aggressively to break this destructive cycle, restore confidence, and restart lending.

We will do so in several ways. First, we are creating a new lending fund that represents the largest effort ever to help provide auto loans, college loans, and small-business loans to the consumers and entrepreneurs who keep this economy running.

Second, we have launched a housing plan that will help responsible families facing the threat of foreclosure lower their monthly payments and refinance their mortgages. It's a plan that won't help speculators or that neighbor down the street who bought a house he could never hope to afford, but it will help millions of Americans who are struggling with declining home values — Americans who will now be able to take advantage of the lower interest rates that this plan has already helped bring about. In fact, the average family who refinances today can save nearly $2,000 per year on their mortgage.

Third, we will act with the full force of the federal government to ensure that the major banks that Americans depend on have enough confidence and enough money to lend even in more difficult times. And when we learn that a major bank has serious problems, we will hold accountable those responsible, force the necessary adjustments, provide the support to clean up their balance sheets, and assure the continuity of a strong, viable institution that can serve our people and our economy.

I understand that on any given day, Wall Street may be more comforted by an approach that gives banks bailouts with no strings attached and that holds nobody accountable for their reckless decisions. But such an approach won't solve the problem. And our goal is to quicken the day when we restart lending to the American people and American business and end this crisis once and for all.

I intend to hold these banks fully accountable for the assistance they receive, and this time, they will have to clearly demonstrate how taxpayer dollars result in more lending for the American taxpayer. This time, CEOs won't be able to use taxpayer money to pad their paychecks or buy fancy drapes or disappear on a private jet. Those days are over.

Still, this plan will require significant resources from the federal government — and yes, probably more than we've already set aside. But while the cost of action will be great, I can assure you that the cost of inaction will be far greater, for it could result in an economy that sputters along for not months or years, but perhaps a decade. That would be worse for our deficit, worse for business, worse for you, and worse for the next generation. And I refuse to let that happen.

I understand that when the last administration asked this Congress to provide assistance for struggling banks, Democrats and Republicans alike were infuriated by the mismanagement and results that followed. So were the American taxpayers. So was I.

So I know how unpopular it is to be seen as helping banks right now, especially when everyone is suffering in part from their bad decisions. I promise you — I get it.

But I also know that in a time of crisis, we cannot afford to govern out of anger, or yield to the politics of the moment. My job — our job — is to solve the problem. Our job is to govern with a sense of responsibility. I will not spend a single penny for the purpose of rewarding a single Wall Street executive, but I will do whatever it takes to help the small business that can't pay its workers or the family that has saved and still can't get a mortgage.

That's what this is about. It's not about helping banks — it's about helping people. Because when credit is available again, that young family can finally buy a new home. And then some company will hire workers to build it. And then those workers will have money to spend, and if they can get a loan too, maybe they'll finally buy that car, or open their own business. Investors will return to the market, and American families will see their retirement secured once more. Slowly, but surely, confidence will return, and our economy will recover.

So I ask this Congress to join me in doing whatever proves necessary. Because we cannot consign our nation to an open-ended recession. And to ensure that a crisis of this magnitude never happens again, I ask Congress to move quickly on legislation that will finally reform our outdated regulatory system. It is time to put in place tough, new common-sense rules of the road so that our financial market rewards drive and innovation, and punishes short-cuts and abuse.

The recovery plan and the financial stability plan are the immediate steps we're taking to revive our economy in the short term. But the only way to fully restore America's economic strength is to make the long-term investments that will lead to new jobs, new industries, and a renewed ability to compete with the rest of the world. The only way this century will be another American century is if we confront at last the price of our dependence on oil and the high cost of health care; the schools that aren't preparing our children and the mountain of debt they stand to inherit. That is our responsibility.

In the next few days, I will submit a budget to Congress. So often, we have come to view these documents as simply numbers on a page or laundry lists of programs. I see this document differently. I see it as a vision for America — as a blueprint for our future.

My budget does not attempt to solve every problem or address every issue. It reflects the stark reality of what we've inherited — a trillion-dollar deficit, a financial crisis, and a costly recession.

Given these realities, everyone in this chamber — Democrats and Republicans — will have to sacrifice some worthy priorities for which there are no dollars. And that includes me.

But that does not mean we can afford to ignore our long-term challenges. I reject the view that says our problems will simply take care of themselves; that says government has no role in laying the foundation for our common prosperity.

For history tells a different story. History reminds us that at every moment of economic upheaval and transformation, this nation has responded with bold action and big ideas. In the midst of civil war, we laid railroad tracks from one coast to another that spurred commerce and industry. From the turmoil of the Industrial Revolution came a system of public high schools that prepared our citizens for a new age. In the wake of war and depression, the GI Bill sent a generation to college and created the largest middle class in history. And a twilight struggle for freedom led to a nation of highways, an American on the moon, and an explosion of technology that still shapes our world.

In each case, government didn't supplant private enterprise; it catalyzed private enterprise. It created the conditions for thousands of entrepreneurs and new businesses to adapt and to thrive.

We are a nation that has seen promise amid peril, and claimed opportunity from ordeal. Now we must be that nation again. That is why, even as it cuts back on the programs we don't need, the budget I submit will invest in the three areas that are absolutely critical to our economic future: energy, health care, and education.

It begins with energy.

We know the country that harnesses the power of clean, renewable energy will lead the 21st century. And yet, it is China that has launched the largest effort in history to make their economy energy efficient. We invented solar technology, but we've fallen behind countries like Germany and Japan in producing it. New plug-in hybrids roll off our assembly lines, but they will run on batteries made in Korea.

Well, I do not accept a future where the jobs and industries of tomorrow take root beyond our borders — and I know you don't either. It is time for America to lead again.

Thanks to our recovery plan, we will double this nation's supply of renewable energy in the next three years. We have also made the largest investment in basic research funding in American history — an investment that will spur not only new discoveries in energy but breakthroughs in medicine, science and technology.

We will soon lay down thousands of miles of power lines that can carry new energy to cities and towns across this country. And we will put Americans to work making our homes and buildings more efficient so that we can save billions of dollars on our energy bills.

But to truly transform our economy, protect our security, and save our planet from the ravages of climate change, we need to ultimately make clean, renewable energy the profitable kind of energy. So I ask this Congress to send me legislation that places a market-based cap on carbon pollution and drives the production of more renewable energy in America. And to support that innovation, we will invest $15 billions a year to develop technologies like wind power and solar power; advanced biofuels, clean coal, and more fuel-efficient cars and trucks built right here in America.

As for our auto industry, everyone recognizes that years of bad decision-making and a global recession have pushed our automakers to the brink. We should not, and will not, protect them from their own bad practices. But we are committed to the goal of a retooled, re-imagined auto industry that can compete and win. Millions of jobs depend on it. Scores of communities depend on it. And I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it.

None of this will come without cost; nor will it be easy. But this is America. We don't do what's easy. We do what is necessary to move this country forward.

For that same reason, we must also address the crushing cost of health care.

This is a cost that now causes a bankruptcy in America every 30 seconds. By the end of the year, it could cause 1.5 million Americans to lose their homes. In the last eight years, premiums have grown four times faster than wages. And in each of these years, 1 million more Americans have lost their health insurance. It is one of the major reasons why small businesses close their doors and corporations ship jobs overseas. And it's one of the largest and fastest-growing parts of our budget.

Given these facts, we can no longer afford to put health care reform on hold.

Already, we have done more to advance the cause of health care reform in the last 30 days than we have in the last decade. When it was days old, this Congress passed a law to provide and protect health insurance for 11 million American children whose parents work full time. Our recovery plan will invest in electronic health records and new technology that will reduce errors, bring down costs, ensure privacy, and save lives. It will launch a new effort to conquer a disease that has touched the life of nearly every American by seeking a cure for cancer in our time. And it makes the largest investment ever in preventive care, because that is one of the best ways to keep our people healthy and our costs under control.

This budget builds on these reforms. It includes a historic commitment to comprehensive health care reform — a down payment on the principle that we must have quality, affordable health care for every American. It's a commitment that's paid for in part by efficiencies in our system that are long overdue. And it's a step we must take if we hope to bring down our deficit in the years to come.

Now, there will be many different opinions and ideas about how to achieve reform, and that is why I'm bringing together businesses and workers, doctors and health care providers, Democrats and Republicans to begin work on this issue next week.

I suffer no illusions that this will be an easy process. It will be hard. But I also know that nearly a century after Teddy Roosevelt first called for reform, the cost of our health care has weighed down our economy and the conscience of our nation long enough. So let there be no doubt: Health care reform cannot wait, it must not wait, and it will not wait another year.

The third challenge we must address is the urgent need to expand the promise of education in America.

In a global economy where the most valuable skill you can sell is your knowledge, a good education is no longer just a pathway to opportunity — it is a prerequisite.

Right now, three-quarters of the fastest-growing occupations require more than a high school diploma. And yet, just over half of our citizens have that level of education. We have one of the highest high school dropout rates of any industrialized nation. And half of the students who begin college never finish.

This is a prescription for economic decline, because we know the countries that outteach us today will outcompete us tomorrow. That is why it will be the goal of this administration to ensure that every child has access to a complete and competitive education — from the day they are born to the day they begin a career.

Already, we have made a historic investment in education through the economic recovery plan. We have dramatically expanded early childhood education and will continue to improve its quality, because we know that the most formative learning comes in those first years of life. We have made college affordable for nearly 7 million more students. And we have provided the resources necessary to prevent painful cuts and teacher layoffs that would set back our children's progress.

But we know that our schools don't just need more resources. They need more reform. That is why this budget creates new incentives for teacher performance; pathways for advancement, and rewards for success. We'll invest in innovative programs that are already helping schools meet high standards and close achievement gaps. And we will expand our commitment to charter schools.

It is our responsibility as lawmakers and educators to make this system work. But it is the responsibility of every citizen to participate in it. And so tonight, I ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. This can be community college or a four-year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma. And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It's not just quitting on yourself, it's quitting on your country — and this country needs and values the talents of every American. That is why we will provide the support necessary for you to complete college and meet a new goal: By 2020, America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world.

I know that the price of tuition is higher than ever, which is why if you are willing to volunteer in your neighborhood or give back to your community or serve your country, we will make sure that you can afford a higher education. And to encourage a renewed spirit of national service for this and future generations, I ask this Congress to send me the bipartisan legislation that bears the name of Sen. Orrin Hatch as well as an American who has never stopped asking what he can do for his country — Sen. Edward Kennedy.

These education policies will open the doors of opportunity for our children. But it is up to us to ensure they walk through them. In the end, there is no program or policy that can substitute for a mother or father who will attend those parent/teacher conferences, or help with homework after dinner, or turn off the TV, put away the video games, and read to their child. I speak to you not just as a president, but as a father when I say that responsibility for our children's education must begin at home.

There is, of course, another responsibility we have to our children. And that is the responsibility to ensure that we do not pass on to them a debt they cannot pay. With the deficit we inherited, the cost of the crisis we face, and the long-term challenges we must meet, it has never been more important to ensure that as our economy recovers, we do what it takes to bring this deficit down.

I'm proud that we passed the recovery plan free of earmarks, and I want to pass a budget next year that ensures that each dollar we spend reflects only our most important national priorities.
Yesterday, I held a fiscal summit where I pledged to cut the deficit in half by the end of my first term in office. My administration has also begun to go line by line through the federal budget in order to eliminate wasteful and ineffective programs. As you can imagine, this is a process that will take some time. But we're starting with the biggest lines. We have already identified $2 trillion in savings over the next decade.

In this budget, we will end education programs that don't work and end direct payments to large agribusinesses that don't need them. We'll eliminate the no-bid contracts that have wasted billions in Iraq, and reform our defense budget so that we're not paying for Cold War-era weapons systems we don't use. We will root out the waste, fraud and abuse in our Medicare program that doesn't make our seniors any healthier, and we will restore a sense of fairness and balance to our tax code by finally ending the tax breaks for corporations that ship our jobs overseas.

In order to save our children from a future of debt, we will also end the tax breaks for the wealthiest 2 percent of Americans. But let me perfectly clear, because I know you'll hear the same old claims that rolling back these tax breaks means a massive tax increase on the American people: If your family earns less than $250,000 a year, you will not see your taxes increased a single dime. I repeat: not one single dime. In fact, the recovery plan provides a tax cut — that's right, a tax cut — for 95 percent of working families. And these checks are on the way.

To preserve our long-term fiscal health, we must also address the growing costs in Medicare and Social Security. Comprehensive health care reform is the best way to strengthen Medicare for years to come. And we must also begin a conversation on how to do the same for Social Security, while creating tax-free universal savings accounts for all Americans.

Finally, because we're also suffering from a deficit of trust, I am committed to restoring a sense of honesty and accountability to our budget. That is why this budget looks ahead 10 years and accounts for spending that was left out under the old rules — and for the first time, that includes the full cost of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. For seven years, we have been a nation at war. No longer will we hide its price.

We are now carefully reviewing our policies in both wars, and I will soon announce a way forward in Iraq that leaves Iraq to its people and responsibly ends this war.

And with our friends and allies, we will forge a new and comprehensive strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan to defeat al-Qaida and combat extremism. Because I will not allow terrorists to plot against the American people from safe havens half a world away.

As we meet here tonight, our men and women in uniform stand watch abroad and more are readying to deploy. To each and every one of them, and to the families who bear the quiet burden of their absence, Americans are united in sending one message: We honor your service, we are inspired by your sacrifice, and you have our unyielding support. To relieve the strain on our forces, my budget increases the number of our soldiers and Marines. And to keep our sacred trust with those who serve, we will raise their pay, and give our veterans the expanded health care and benefits that they have earned.

To overcome extremism, we must also be vigilant in upholding the values our troops defend — because there is no force in the world more powerful than the example of America. That is why I have ordered the closing of the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, and will seek swift and certain justice for captured terrorists — because living our values doesn't make us weaker, it makes us safer and it makes us stronger. And that is why I can stand here tonight and say without exception or equivocation that the United States of America does not torture.

In words and deeds, we are showing the world that a new era of engagement has begun. For we know that America cannot meet the threats of this century alone, but the world cannot meet them without America. We cannot shun the negotiating table, nor ignore the foes or forces that could do us harm. We are instead called to move forward with the sense of confidence and candor that serious times demand.

To seek progress toward a secure and lasting peace between Israel and her neighbors, we have appointed an envoy to sustain our effort. To meet the challenges of the 21st century — from terrorism to nuclear proliferation; from pandemic disease to cyberthreats to crushing poverty — we will strengthen old alliances, forge new ones, and use all elements of our national power.

And to respond to an economic crisis that is global in scope, we are working with the nations of the G-20 to restore confidence in our financial system, avoid the possibility of escalating protectionism, and spur demand for American goods in markets across the globe. For the world depends on us to have a strong economy, just as our economy depends on the strength of the world's.

As we stand at this crossroads of history, the eyes of all people in all nations are once again upon us \— watching to see what we do with this moment; waiting for us to lead.

Those of us gathered here tonight have been called to govern in extraordinary times. It is a tremendous burden, but also a great privilege — one that has been entrusted to few generations of Americans. For in our hands lies the ability to shape our world for good or for ill.

I know that it is easy to lose sight of this truth — to become cynical and doubtful; consumed with the petty and the trivial.

But in my life, I have also learned that hope is found in unlikely places; that inspiration often comes not from those with the most power or celebrity, but from the dreams and aspirations of Americans who are anything but ordinary.

I think about Leonard Abess, the bank president from Miami who reportedly cashed out of his company, took a $60 million bonus, and gave it out to all 399 people who worked for him, plus another 72 who used to work for him. He didn't tell anyone, but when the local newspaper found out, he simply said, ''I knew some of these people since I was 7 years old. I didn't feel right getting the money myself."

I think about Greensburg, Kansas, a town that was completely destroyed by a tornado but is being rebuilt by its residents as a global example of how clean energy can power an entire community — how it can bring jobs and businesses to a place where piles of bricks and rubble once lay. "The tragedy was terrible," said one of the men who helped them rebuild. "But the folks here know that it also provided an incredible opportunity."

And I think about Ty'Sheoma Bethea, the young girl from that school I visited in Dillon, South Carolina — a place where the ceilings leak, the paint peels off the walls, and they have to stop teaching six times a day because the train barrels by their classroom. She has been told that her school is hopeless, but the other day after class she went to the public library and typed up a letter to the people sitting in this room. She even asked her principal for the money to buy a stamp. The letter asks us for help, and says, "We are just students trying to become lawyers, doctors, congressmen like yourself and one day president, so we can make a change to not just the state of South Carolina but also the world. We are not quitters."

We are not quitters.

These words and these stories tell us something about the spirit of the people who sent us here. They tell us that even in the most trying times, amid the most difficult circumstances, there is a generosity, a resilience, a decency, and a determination that perseveres; a willingness to take responsibility for our future and for posterity.

Their resolve must be our inspiration. Their concerns must be our cause. And we must show them and all our people that we are equal to the task before us.

I know that we haven't agreed on every issue thus far, and there are surely times in the future when we will part ways. But I also know that every American who is sitting here tonight loves this country and wants it to succeed. That must be the starting point for every debate we have in the coming months, and where we return after those debates are done. That is the foundation on which the American people expect us to build common ground.

And if we do — if we come together and lift this nation from the depths of this crisis; if we put our people back to work and restart the engine of our prosperity; if we confront without fear the challenges of our time and summon that enduring spirit of an America that does not quit, then someday years from now our children can tell their children that this was the time when we performed, in the words that are carved into this very chamber, "something worthy to be remembered." Thank you, God Bless you, and may God Bless the United States of America.

..............................................................

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by FramCire on Feb 25th, 2009 at 12:06am
I did not hear a single word I disagreed with.  I felt better when his speech was over than when it began.  I honestly was hungry for more when it was over!!!

Just my 2 cents!

(PS I didn't watch it, I had some nice blueberries while he was speaking, and I watched chopped and it made me hungry)

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 25th, 2009 at 12:56am
If you've never heard one of FDRs fireside chats, this is pretty damned close. Add in a line or two of JFK optimism and a good chunk of Ronald Reagan's ability to stick it to the opposition and you've got it.

I feel badly for Jindal in that he's a terrible speaker and then got caught having to counter such a good one.

Charlie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 25th, 2009 at 5:25am
Jindal was not very good at all.

Obama...I felt better after listening to the speech. That kind of "feel better" after you watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and all the neighbors are coming in with the money to save George and the Bailey Savings and Loan, and the little bell rings, and Clarence gets his wings.

Behind (or amongst) all the obfuscation that showered forth a few salient images:
- It won't pay long term to continue to treat the republicans like the kid who's tougher brother just left town and is now going to have to accept being bullied.
- Didn't he already win the election? He needs to settle down to leading and stop making so many speeches. He's good at it but right now I feel as though I see him speaking somewhere just about every other day.
- Speaking of carryovers from the election cycle, the idea of telling a flat out lie and declaring it the truth because I said it, and if I say it enough times it must be true.... The "there were no earmarks" and "there will be no earmarks" simply means that they are changing the word for "earmarks" to something strangely innocuous like "economic pixie dust".
- Again, Jindal was terrible.
- The rest of the world will perceive the speech as a continuation of our borrowing from them to finance our "American" way of living.

Scott

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 25th, 2009 at 7:00am
Unfortunately it appears that he is attempting to re-inflate the bubble that got us here in the first place. If he accomplishes this, the bubble he kicks down the road to our children will explode again and make our current situation look like the good old days. It is simply unsustainable.

Consumerism is like a shark...it needs to continue moving or it dies.
The ongoing unraveling of the economy is the result of our attempt at getting something for nothing. We as a society have cut back on our spending and look at the results. Alternatives are out there but those do not align with how we perceive it ought to be.

I did like his goals with regard to alternative energy. Global warming or not, this is a no regrets solution. It's about time.

Education..? what's not to like about those goals? Can it be accomplished by a Government bureaucracy? Not yet so far.

One thing I hoped for is tort reform. You want to bring down health care costs? This would be a good first step. See what happens on that front before you send me to Dr. Government.

After I watched Jindal, I went out on the porch to take a smoke. As I looked out to the west toward Baton Rouge, I could see a bright light in the sky. It wasn't a refinery flare either. It was Bobby's national ambitions going up in flames. Then came the smell so I went back inside.

Steve G

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 25th, 2009 at 7:23am
Reading the text of his speech, it is nothing more than slick salesmanship. He MUST attempt to sell these ideas to the majority of Americans who will be funding them (along with their children and grandchildren) - they do not sell themselves, that is certain.

And to the American people who elected this salesman, I say this: If you're buying more than you're selling, you're losing.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 25th, 2009 at 8:47am
Obama's inaugural speech was called a bit "grim" by the BBC. I'd have to agree. I'm still working on this one.

Tort reform: Two things: A really big business that has a history of not  being too careful about how they manufacture stuff or pay attention to things like the FDA has this way up on their wishlist. I've heard that some wanted to limit awards to about $250,000. Thanks to our crappy system, a monster business can stall a lawsuit so long that it will make it useless to pursue it. A horrible idea and DREAM for them. It sounds good but it would make it profitable to ignore things like the FDA and encourage atrocious behavior.

The secret has always been that these huge awards are very rare. When they happen now and then it makes a helluva news story. 99% of them are small.......and the only reason that even smaller awards exist is because of the threat of a big one. Without this threat, it would pay for business to just let things slide......and we know now how well this worked on Wall Street.

However, if there were some way for doctors to not have to carry such huge insurance policies, I'm for it....IF they can find some way for someone to be seriously compensated when he gets the wrong arm amputated. You just can't limit this to two years worth of income when someone's life is destroyed by incompetence.

Charlie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by on my knees on Feb 25th, 2009 at 9:05am
Reading the text of his speech, it is nothing more than slick salesmanship

considering the hyperconsumerism and the i want it now!!!!
generation the speech needed to be sold!!!!

dont get me wrong i think we all missed our chance with Huckabee

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 25th, 2009 at 9:18am
I didn't watch President Obama's speech or Bobby Jindal's speech.  I wasn't in the mood to watch a dog and pony trick show.  I do wonder what happened to Jindal's speaking ability, though.  He's usually very good.  I was listening to the news this morning and Biden pointed out to things about Jindal/LA that I thought were very telling, Louisiana is losing approximatly 400 jobs a day, what's he doing about it (the answer is at the end).  Lousiana is among the top states with the worst infrastructure, what's he doing about it.  Drumroll please, TADA!!!   NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH.  He's too freakin' busy running around the country promoting himself and raising money.


stevegeebe wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 7:00am:
After I watched Jindal, I went out on the porch to take a smoke. As I looked out to the west toward Baton Rouge, I could see a bright light in the sky. It wasn't a refinery flare either. It was Bobby's national ambitions going up in flames. Then came the smell so I went back inside.

Steve G


Ah, so that's what that stench was last night.  I thought somebodys' *shitpond* had overflowed.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Batch on Feb 25th, 2009 at 9:46am
Here’s my critical take on President Obama’s address to Congress and pitch to the people of the United States last night.

Great presentation with fantastic rhetoric – He speaks exceptionally well and very effectively from a teleprompter.

I’ll be the first to admit he did say some of what I wanted to hear, but there wasn’t much on specifics other than the obvious increase in tax on the rich earning more than $250,000, the cuts in farm subsidies, and cuts in Defense Spending (Cold War systems – read just about all strategic weapon systems including, but not limited to, the missile defense system, nuclear weapons, intelligence systems).  

What I was more critical of were the glaring half-truths, misdirection, and of equal importance, what he didn’t say…

What he did – and didn’t say:

1.      He inherited a deficit – What he didn’t say was… that only applies to the annual budget deficit and that he’s actually going to increase the annual budget deficit each year until he cuts it in half by the end of his first term in office, or that these cuts do not count the $35 B Bush Bank Bailout, the other half of that bank bailout spent since he took office or the $878 B porkulus package that all total more than $2 Trillion dollars, or that it will take us at least 30 years just to pay off these specific deficits.

2.      The economic problems we face will require more stimulus finding – What he didn’t say was how much more funding it would require or if the $2 Trillion dollars that have already been authorized will actually work or when.  Most of the porkulus package has funding expenditure cut off dates stretched out to 2014 and some out to 2017.

3.      There will be No Earmarks – What he didn’t say is… that “promise” only applies to next year and beyond… and that this promise doesn’t apply to the $878 Billion stimulus package of liberal earmarks or the $410 Billion Omnibus Bill (Part of the Annual Budget) about to hit the street in two days out of the House.  We’re being told it contains over 8,000 disclosed earmarks worth $7.7 Billion in new spending and the bill is 8% higher than last year.   I’ve downloaded it and I’m going over it now…

Good people of Clusterville… THIS IS CRIMINAL use of taxpayer dollars to buy votes!!!!  We need term limits !!! The Obamanoid LIES!!!

4.      The top 2% of American taxpayers earning more than $250K are going to pay for everything with increased taxes – What he didn’t say is “and if we believe that…   “

5.      95% of “working families” will not pay any new Federal taxes and some will receive a stimulus tax refund – What he didn’t say was “working Americans” so this also applies to illegal aliens and most will get a silly-ass refund even if they didn’t pay any Federal income tax so that is spending not a tax cut.
What he also didn’t say is… that his claim of no new Federal taxes only applies to this year and that our Federal taxes will go up when the Bush Tax Cuts Expire, or that the States are going to tax the shit out of us to cover their deficits.

6.      He’s calling for an increase in military end-strength (allow the Services to enlist and commission more than the present authorized level) – What he didn’t say was that he’s going to count this increase in military end-strength along with people in his new National job core, as new jobs…  Government jobs…

7.      His porkulus package would increase employment by 3.5 million jobs or save up to 3.5 million jobs – What he didn’t say was that a recent Executive Order he signed and an obscure provision in the porkulus bill combine to require union wage agreements prior to any contract being awarded with porkulus funding and that most if not all the new jobs created by these porkulus contracts will require most if not all workers to be members of a union.

8.      His porkulus package pays for new broadband (Internet) connectivity – What he didn’t say was that Federal Statutes (FARS) require that any and all goods, services, and capabilities procured with Federal funding becomes government property…  That means your government will control all new Internet segments purchased by the porkulus package and that this gives the government full control over it’s use and content…  This is going to get real nasty with the “Fairness Doctrine” and State Controlled Media that’s been so popular with Marxist governments.

9.   He will penalize corporations that send jobs off shore - What he didn't say is these corporations are taxed at the highest rates in the world (≥35%) and that this is what drove them to outsource production out of the US, or that this will require thousands of new government regulators, or that he wants to use these penalties against Walmart, and that his rabid liberal policies prevent him from realizing these penalties will lead to more corporations with a global market moving off shore causing a further loss of tax revenues.      

10.   There’s a lot more the President didn’t say but the most glaring word not spoken was TERRORISM.

I could go on but I think you get my drift.

What we are facing is a choice between two opposing methods of getting out of the present economic problems we face.  In simple terms they are:

1.      Reduce the size of government, reduce taxes, and with the exception of a limited level of stimulus funding, reduce Federal spending, then work our way out of this problem.  Free market capitalism is the solution not government.

2.      Increase the size of government, increase taxes and increase Federal spending along with several trillions of dollars in stimulus spending, then pray it works and that you’ll still have a job.  Government is the solution and free market capitalism is the cause of the problem.

I don’t know about you, but when I was growing up and we faced economic hard times in our house, we cut back on everything possible to make ends meet while making the payments on our house and the small business we bought.  That financial discipline worked very effectively then just as it did after I joined the Navy and got married.

Hopefully with pressure from the public, we can force a compromise…

I’ll leave you with some quotes by Thomas Jefferson… BTW he was around before there was a GOP…

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”

“It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.”

“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.”

And the most interesting quote by Thomas Jefferson given our present economic situation…

“Banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”


Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 25th, 2009 at 10:39am
Don't know about the rest of you but I think the stimulus package is a helluva a pile earmarks too.

As for terrorism, going after Osama hiding out in Pakistan.....just waiting to get his hands on a few of the hundred or so Pakistan nukes is my idea of fighting terrorists. There have been and always will be terrorists but he is a special case.

The U. S. has been forced to become a bit more....for want of a better term: European and has to look at the world differently. We we don't do it well. Like it or not now we have to deal with some really nasty types, just like the rest of the world. Our ocean buffers are not what they used to be.

Charlie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by midwestbeth on Feb 25th, 2009 at 11:38am
Didn't watch the Presidential address last night.......I couldn't bear the sight of Nancy Pelosi's face behind Obama.  

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Jeannie on Feb 25th, 2009 at 11:42am
LOL!  Beth,

I had to turn it off for the same reason!  

Jeannie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by monty on Feb 25th, 2009 at 11:52am
Batch,

He did cover terrorism and extremism and threats to the US - check the text.



Some differences between the two speeches:

Obama was more comprehensive. Obama defined a role for government in the current situation, one that I think most Americans agree with.

Jindal went to the standard Republican strategies - cut taxes, limit government.  

In today's climate, i don't think tax cuts and shrinking government alone is the right strategy. I am for mass transit, volcano research (along with earthquake research, hurricane research, etc).  

Taken to the nth degree, the Jindal approach suggests we should dissolve the military and ask people to arm themselves. That made sense in a colonial frontier on the edge of the known world, but not in today's world. Government can do things right - the military is an example.

In other news, the figures are out and exports from Japan dropped by 50% in January.  Strong indication of the size of the economic spasm and the need to act.  

The cost of taking action is significant, but the various figures I have seen put the cost of the 2004 Bush tax cuts at $4-$6 trillion. Simply letting them expire will let us pay off much of the emergency legislation.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 25th, 2009 at 11:59am

Quote:
Government can do things right - the military is an example.

Tell that to Barney Frank.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by monty on Feb 25th, 2009 at 12:01pm
I will, next time I see him.

[quote]REP. BARNEY FRANK (D-MA): Well, two things. First, watch this face, David, because some of the arguments you've been hearing now about how government spending never helps the economy, you're going to hear the absolute reverse when military spending comes up. We have an airplane, the F-22, that is designed to defeat the Soviet Union in a war, and I think we can save billions. The defense budget has gone way up under George Bush. But somehow to my Republican friends enormous amounts for the war in Iraq--which I thought was a mistake--hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars for weapons to fight the Cold War, they don't count those. But you're going to hear an argument about how important military spending is for the economy.

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Frank wasn't the first to suggest that we need to re-prioritize our military spending going forward, that should be a regular occurence. Also, the President is proposing increasing the number of active duty personell, which is somewhat different than the ideas of that Congressman.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Bob P on Feb 25th, 2009 at 12:34pm

Quote:
Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.), the longest serving Democratic senator, is criticizing President Obama’s appointment of White House “czars” to oversee federal policy, saying these executive positions amount to a power grab by the executive branch.

In a letter to Obama on Wednesday, Byrd complained about Obama’s decision to create White House offices on health reform, urban affairs policy, and energy and climate change. Byrd said such positions “can threaten the Constitutional system of checks and balances. At the worst, White House staff have taken direction and control of programmatic areas that are the statutory responsibility of Senate-confirmed officials.”


At least some Dems recognize it!


Glad he's going to end the Bush tax cuts also.  The child tax credit will go down and the bottom bracket, 10%, will jump to 15%.  Time for those scum middle class people to carry some of the weight.

No more school drop outs - did I hear that right, he's going to pay them to stay in school?

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by jimmers on Feb 25th, 2009 at 1:00pm
If I read the word PORKULUS one more time, I'm going to heave :P

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by wildhaus on Feb 25th, 2009 at 3:26pm
Well Mr. Obama is the elected president of the USA, like it or not, there is only a little over 2 years until the next possible change can be undertaken, where American voters can stop the insane spending frenzy the socialist have embarked on.  American voters need to understand this massive spending and unimaginable debt is effecting not only the American economy but also the global economy.  And that will come back to haunt Americans when they can no longer market their goods abroad.

As a Swiss I find it very funny, in a way, that the IRS is trying to lure money from Switzerland, money that some Americans have placed in Swiss bank accounts, I wonder why they did it.  I wonder what is wrong with the “American way” that fine people need to seek financial shelter in Switzerland! or other off shore banks!
It is not that the Swiss system is corrupt and greedy, it is the IRS that is forcing potential taxpayers to run, and a political system that punishes taxpayers to pay for more liberal illusions and social experiments..... like the one Mr. Obama is trying (successfully) feed the American people with his horribly expensive and wasteful economic stimulus plan.

Fix the System in the USA first, our system in Switzerland is not perfect, but I do not need to look for shelters to send my money, I believe I pay somewhat the right amount of tax for what I get in return! so I don’t need to seek shelter for my money from the tax collectors.....

It is very said that the liberal leadership in the US Congress and at the IRS needs to resort to, what appears to be gangster tricks and mafia methods in an attempt to try and collect money that they have run off as a result of an incoherent and totally opaque liberal system of taxation and outrageous over spending.

I am a very big fan of the American way of life, of the “old” American values, of the right to freedom, self-expression, self-determination, to be achievers... entrepreneurs... and become winners...

After listening to Mr. Obama (for some time now) and looking at a “full house” lead by Mrs. Pelosi, I am afraid it is all over with the superlatives that differentiated the USA from the rest of the world.  The socialist political leaders in America are walking that grate nation down the road to financial ruin just to push their agenda...   This is hardly the American way I knew... and lived for some time in Texas... a way I have learned to appreciate from my early teen to my naval duty, and adulthood marring a Texas flower, and being a father to 2 American brats.......


Michael

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 25th, 2009 at 3:44pm

wildhaus wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 3:26pm:
American voters need to understand this massive spending and unimaginable debt is effecting not only the American economy but also the global economy.

If American voters understood this, Michael, we wouldn't be in this mess.

I'm reminded of B$'s signature line - something like, "Imagine how stupid the average person is, then remind yourself that half the people are even more stupid than this."

Welkome to Amerika.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by monty on Feb 25th, 2009 at 4:04pm

wildhaus wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 3:26pm:
 I wonder what is wrong with the “American way” that fine people need to seek financial shelter in Switzerland! or other off shore banks!

It is not that the Swiss system is corrupt and greedy, it is the IRS that is forcing potential taxpayers to run, and a political system that punishes taxpayers to pay for more liberal illusions and social experiments..... like the one Mr. Obama is trying (successfully) feed the American people with his horribly expensive and wasteful economic stimulus plan.


I can understand some of the attractions of numbered, anonymous accounts, even for law abiding citizens. But its no good pretending that such accounts have not been very attractive to tax cheats, drug smugglers, terrorists, and dictators.  After 9-11, the banks started providing information on terrorism. They also provide info when there is a drug investigation. Now, tax cheats may lose their privileges. Soon those offshore banks will only be for law abiding citizens.


Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 25th, 2009 at 4:18pm
I understand the U.S. is not the only country aslope at this time.  Though I seem to have less interest, methods how these other countries realistically "make adjustments" could be examined also with these expectations on America.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Jonny on Feb 25th, 2009 at 7:49pm
America wanted a reality show president with an appluase track on the level of American idol.

Well, thats what they got.....LOL

God help us!  ;)

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 25th, 2009 at 7:52pm

monty wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 4:04pm:

wildhaus wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 3:26pm:
I wonder what is wrong with the “American way” that fine people need to seek financial shelter in Switzerland! or other off shore banks!

It is not that the Swiss system is corrupt and greedy, it is the IRS that is forcing potential taxpayers to run, and a political system that punishes taxpayers to pay for more liberal illusions and social experiments..... like the one Mr. Obama is trying (successfully) feed the American people with his horribly expensive and wasteful economic stimulus plan.


I can understand some of the attractions of numbered, anonymous accounts, even for law abiding citizens. But its no good pretending that such accounts have not been very attractive to tax cheats, drug smugglers, terrorists, and dictators.  After 9-11, the banks started providing information on terrorism. They also provide info when there is a drug investigation. Now, tax cheats may lose their privileges. Soon those offshore banks will only be for law abiding citizens.


Monty,
You're missing the big picture year.  wildhaus is talking about legitimate businesses and law abiding citizens.  US corportations build overseas to escape the heavy tax burdens in the US.   The IRS has hamstrung American businesses based in the US.

This is from 2002, but it points out how the US is not competitive in the world market.

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Take a look at what states are offering mfg. plants to locate their plants there.  There's some mighty big bucks being spent to lure these companies.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 25th, 2009 at 10:02pm
People have been hiding big wads of cash in Swiss banks all my life. It made even more sense in the 1950s with tax rates as much as 90%. Not all that unexpected. It's a different world today. Too many people and too much information. There hasn't been much privacy since the war and it's clear those days are over.

If you thing Big Brother would be a socialist horror; think again. It would take a bigger Big Brother to enforce the kind of antique libertarian world that so many people seem to want.

Socialism and Communism have never been deader in this country but if you are entertained by lunatic blogs, Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh, you're a lost cause. It's really too bad about the GOP. If any party could use a few "elites," it's them.

Charlie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by monty on Feb 25th, 2009 at 11:33pm

deltadarlin wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 7:52pm:
Monty,

You're missing the big picture year.  wildhaus is talking about legitimate businesses and law abiding citizens.  

...


No, I'm not missing the big picture. The US government just found UBS (the largest Swiss Bank) guilty of being part of a major criminal conspiracy to defraud the US of tax money. The US government is seeking to get information on US Citizens that are breaking the law. And many Swiss are not happy about it - so we see them blaming the US.

There is nothing wrong or illegal with individuals or corporations moving money internationally - they may want to diversify, may see opportunities that others don't. But when someone is a citizen of a country and they don't follow the laws of that country (ie, they don't report the money or profits), then they are breaking the law.   Switzerland has long profited from such illegal activity, and now that the US Government is trying to stop it, we see reactions like the comments from Wildhaus:


Quote:
As a Swiss I find it very funny, in a way, that the IRS is trying to lure money from Switzerland, money that some Americans have placed in Swiss bank accounts, I wonder why they did it.  I wonder what is wrong with the “American way” that fine people need to seek financial shelter in Switzerland! or other off shore banks!
It is not that the Swiss system is corrupt and greedy, it is the IRS that is forcing potential taxpayers to run, and a political system that punishes taxpayers to pay for more liberal illusions and social experiments.....


Wildhaus is offering a pathetic justification of tax fraud, blaming it on the United States for taxing people.  It's not that something is wrong with the American way - It is the Swiss way that is wrong, and the Swiss will soon be forced to change. The Swiss figured out long ago that they could keep their taxes low by luring in huge sums of illegal money from around the world and taxing that only slightly (and usually indirectly). But such a system wouldn't work if every country tried it. It only works when one country undercuts many others.

No one that understands the current conflict between Switzerland and the US would suggest that the average person in America should pay taxes, while the rich are able to fly to Switzerland with a suitcase of cash to deposit and then not have to pay taxes.  Except of course, the Swiss and the 'fine people' that commit such corruption.

The US is not the only one taking action. The UK is also applying pressure, and other G20 nations are preparing to do so because the Swiss banking system is parasitic.  The business model of being the money launderer of the world will not last long.


Quote:
Sunday February 22, 2009

Last week, the US Department of Justice came down heavily on Switzerland-based UBS, described as one of the world's largest private banks, which had aided and abetted wealthy Americans to hide their money from the Internal Revenue Service and skip paying taxes.

Admitting guilt, UBS has agreed to pay a hefty $780 million in penalties and has also been forced to reveal the names of all its US clients who are liable for punishment for tax evasion under American law.

Initially, UBS agreed to turn over the names of about 250 of its American clients. But that was not good enough to the Justice Department, which has demanded the names of some 52,000 clients -- and growing. If UBS fails to concede to the request, some of its top executives could be liable for indictment in US courts on conspiracy charges.

According to email messages tracked down by the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI), the stealthy transactions were mostly in coded language that only the clients and bankers could decipher. But all that went public last week.

The phrase "one nut," for example, meant $250,000 and "one swan" meant $1 million. The world's major currencies were colour coded: orange for the euro and blue for the sterling pound. The FBI says off-shore deposits of US clients at UBS may have exceeded a staggering $20 billion depriving the US government of about $300 million in federal taxes annually.

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Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by M.R. on Feb 26th, 2009 at 5:55am
"You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot establish security on borrowed money. You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." --Presbyterian minister William J.H. Boetcker (1873-1962)

Whe ever the hell he was.

Mike

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by wildhaus on Feb 26th, 2009 at 1:37pm
Monty,
As you say yourself, some individuals have broken the law in the USA! not In Switzerland! you’re Government and IRS try to apply the American law over Switzerland, and that is wrong, I will call it wild west law,  If you have a problem in your country with individuals, find them, put them on trial by your law! But do not require a sovereign country (federalist, democratic) to find or deliver so called (by your standards) individuals that broke the law simply because your government thinks they have put money in Swiss banks, there is a normal legal system that the IRS can use, and was used before by the USA Government, but now the IRS and the USA government play the role of prosecutor, judge and hanger in one, avoiding the proper International law! and the right of a sovereign country and its citizens to choose the law, and we do vote on almost every issue directly – the sovereigns.

The USA government can ask for assistance from the Swiss courts to fined the individuals, or impose on a bank to provide the required information based on wrong doing, and in accordance with the Swiss law..... and I believe in some cases the IRS will get it wish!

Monty, I wonder how will you force the Swiss to give out the information, are you suggesting a military invasion, or how..... our law is the law of this country, we approved it, and we like it that way, what can you do...... not much, just look for proper ways to solve the problem through legal channels, and proper judicial way, as it is normal between 2 sovereign countries...... and not by intimidation, threats, and vigilante methods....  Union Helvetia is slightly older than the USA, most likely the most peaceful nation on the face of earth, a determined nation and people, you do not treat a nation with such heritage..... and I believe most of the Swiss will not go for changing the law, to satisfy the needs of the USA or for that matter the needs of the IRS, and I wonder if  the banks will brake the law in Switzerland and provide the desired names, the bank that does that will loose its banking licence.....

Monty, yes some other countries try, as you say, but they do not use the methods the USA is using..... they try by means of diplomacy..... and communication..... BTW the Germans threatened the principality of Lichtenstein..... and got the answer: clean up your system and try to obey your law in your own country, and not use your standards and methods in a sovereign country... the principality of Lichtenstein.
Monty, I don’t know where you take the right to judge the Swiss system, and laws, we do not force no one to put or invest money in the monetary institutions in Switzerland, or offer any special treatment, we just have a system that can be trusted and respected, and a prosperity that is a real thing, and not a shine situation..... and we offer individual and protected banking system with very high discretion and reliability, and that is why individuals trust their money to the Swiss institutions.....  if some of the discussed individuals have broken the law in their country it is not our-Swiss responsibility, not duty to see them trailed, the individuals didn’t brake any law in Switzerland, and therefore the USA can seek judicial assistance from Switzerland, but not use intimidation, it just does not do!

Monty, I have never criticized the law in the USA, nor did I find myself free to criticize your federal system, or your political system, I don’t pay for it nor do I have to defend it..... and therefore have no right to criticize it.......  

I wonder where do you find the right to use such harsh terms and conviction (Quote)“being the money launderer of the world”  to preach right and wrong about Switzerland..... I believe you need to apologize....  you have gone beyond any proper line of common courtesy.....  (Quote) “The Swiss figured out long ago that they could keep their taxes law by luring in huge sums of illegal money from around the world” I think you should rethink the choice of words...... you have crossed the fine line of accusing a nation with out as much as a single proper proof..... just some speculative, assumptions..........

Michael

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by monty on Feb 26th, 2009 at 1:59pm
UBS is not merely a Swiss bank - they have offices around the world. They can cling to Swiss law, but that requires they close all international offices, and stop transmitting money around the world.


Quote:
you have crossed the fine line of accusing a nation with out as much as a single proper proof..... just some speculative, assumptions


Not true - UBS has admitted guilt, and there is no question that the other Swiss banks are engaged in the same thing. It was not merely an issue of different laws, the bank worked to actively mislead the US, violated previous agreements, and coached their employees to lie and prepare false paperwork to hide the money.

A Swiss bank account has long been synonymous with tax evasion, thieving dictators, drug dealers and terrorists.  To survive, international banks need to move beyond the old model to greater transparency and responsibility.

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Quote:
Monty, I have never criticized the law in the USA, nor did I find myself free to criticize your federal system, or your political system, I don’t pay for it nor do I have to defend it..... and therefore have no right to criticize it.......


Of course you have. You repeatedly take an active role here promoting your ideas and criticizing those in the US who have a different viewpoint. Consider the thread you started called "I wonder  (the USA might have a problem)" where you asked if US Democrats are really communists.  You are welcome to your opinion, but don't pretend that you are not opinionated.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by BarbaraD on Feb 26th, 2009 at 2:03pm
I did watch both the guys and thought Bobby should have thought it thru a little better. Obama was good as usual. But there are some areas I have problems with.

Education needs to be addressed big time. We're so far behind the rest of the world in that department. The programs in place are NOT working and haven't been. Our kids are NOT learning and are not being prepared for the real world. Teachers are (dont' kill the messenger PLEASE) in a lot of public schools are NOT qualified to be teaching.

Term limits NEED to become a reality - The PEOPLE of this country NEED to insist on it and SOON!

I sent off two letters to DC this morning - one to Obama and one to my Senator telling them MY PLAN for a couple of reforms that would work (one on food stamps  and one on the IRS). These are two areas that money is being WASTED on and BILLIONS could be saved if they were reformed.

"Guest Workers" need to be sent home - ya know "guests" are like fish - after a few days they began to smell! Immigration needs to be REFORMED totally (maybe we should look at a few other countries - they don't seem to have a problem with "expired" visas).

I personally think we're on the brink of depression, if we're not already there. I also think Obama is trying to avoid it, but I'm not sure he can. I also think those guys in DC need to forget politics and start using some common sense to "work" on a solution to the problems facing the people back home (if they even remember the people back home). Instead of tearing each other apart right now, we need to be working together to try to find a solution.

Anyhow, I may not be making sense, but I'm just pissed off at the whole crowd in DC right now. I've seen children act more grown up than they are.

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 26th, 2009 at 2:53pm

Quote:
I am a very big fan of the American way of life, of the "old" American values, of the right to freedom, self-expression, self-determination, to be achievers... entrepreneurs... and become winners...


Some values are still alive and well, however as contradicting as they may be expressed.



Quote:
...I have never criticized the law in the USA, nor did I find myself free to criticize your federal system, or your political system, I don’t pay for it nor do I have to defend it..... and therefore have no right to criticize it.......
 






wildhaus wrote on Feb 25th, 2009 at 3:26pm:
...the insane spending frenzy the socialist have embarked on.  


...it is the IRS that is forcing potential taxpayers to run, and a political system that punishes taxpayers to pay for more liberal illusions and social experiments..... like the one Mr. Obama is trying (successfully) feed the American people with his horribly expensive and wasteful economic stimulus plan.

It is very said that the liberal leadership in the US Congress and at the IRS needs to resort to, what appears to be gangster tricks and mafia methods in an attempt to try and collect money that they have run off as a result of an incoherent and totally opaque liberal system of taxation and outrageous over spending.

The socialist political leaders in America are walking that grate nation down the road to financial ruin just to push their agenda...  

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 26th, 2009 at 3:58pm

BarbaraD wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 2:03pm:
Education needs to be addressed big time. We're so far behind the rest of the world in that department. The programs in place are NOT working and haven't been. Our kids are NOT learning and are not being prepared for the real world. Teachers are (dont' kill the messenger PLEASE) in a lot of public schools are NOT qualified to be teaching.

When you send your children off to be educated by the public schools, you are, to one degree or another, abdicating your responsibility as a parent to see to it that your children are educated properly.

It's kind of like sending your kids to a wh0re house and calling it summer camp. What the hell do you think they're going to learn in there?

Unfortunately, many families are required by their balance sheet to send both mom and dad to the salt mines every day, and public school becomes glorified babysitting. But when we give the public schools - a tool of the state - that much access to our kids' grey matter, is it any wonder they can't do basic math or composition, yet come home spouting crap about global warming, saving the whales, and diversity?

All the state wants of them is to become compliant voters.

You want to address education big time? How about compelling parents to take responsibility for educating the children they bring into this world?

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Bob P on Feb 26th, 2009 at 3:59pm
But he is going to cure cancer Barb.  He said so.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by monty on Feb 26th, 2009 at 4:14pm
Brew,

I don't think your notion that the government is the problem is correct. In communities with strong families and schools that are well funded, many, perhaps most schools do a good job - despite being run by the (local) government. I attended a public school in a vibrant suburban community and got a first class education.

The obvious failures are schools in poor areas, where families are highly dysfunctional or broken, and where advanced facilities are defined as textbooks that are not so old they fall apart and chairs that are not broken.

Obviously, some schools need to get beyond the discipline issues, identify and deal with teachers who can't teach, and little can be done until that happens. But other schools are declining for more mundane reasons - including in my state, a recent referendum that lowered taxes, and (combined with other economic issues) may now lead to a 100,000 teachers being cut (along with the elimination of things like music, art, athletics).

The simple fact is that government schools were good enough to facilitate the rise of the US from a second tier nation to the pre-emminent nation in most spheres. I see no reason to assume that school reform cannot put us back on track.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 26th, 2009 at 4:26pm

monty wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 4:14pm:
I don't think your notion that the government is the problem is correct.

You're entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.

At least we still have that in this country. For now.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Sean C on Feb 26th, 2009 at 7:58pm

monty wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 4:14pm:
I see no reason to assume that school reform cannot put us back on track.


It won't put us back on track, what it will do is give those who want to learn a chance.

The United States will be hard pressed to change the poorest urban communities with just schooling. To many factors come in to play that can't be changed, you named a few.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by ANNSIE on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:11pm

monty wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 4:14pm:
Brew,

I don't think your notion that the government is the problem is correct.  



The government may not be the problem but its policies can certainly cause a lot of problems, which often ( and unfortunately ) dont become apparent until several years down the track.

Look at what the Communist government have done to Russia, China, Germany, Poland, Vietnam and a whole host of other countries. Decades later, the people are still suffering from the effects and struggling to rebuild.

If you care for your children, grandchildren and even great grandchildren's future, and you have the priviledge to vote, it is important to be critical in your viewing of each and every policy being churned out by your government, and take action where needed.


Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:31pm

Sean C wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 7:58pm:
The United States will be hard pressed to change the poorest urban communities with just schooling. To many factors come in to play...







Quote:
Experts suggest patrols key to school safety


While parents and students at Detroit Central High derided school security in the wake of Tuesday's shooting, which left two teens injured, security and facilities experts suggested that parents, volunteers and students should take a larger role in protecting the school.

The shooting occurred on the second floor during dismissal when at least three teens who did not attend the school gained access, according to preliminary police reports.

But Kenneth Trump, president of National School Safety and Security Services, said getting students to report any weapons they see in the schools is even more effective.

With 1,253 trespassing reports in DPS [Detroit Public Schools] last year -- 23 at Central -- adults and students need to do their part to keep outsiders out, Trump said.

"People open the door for people all the time," said junior Ramon Stokes.

It's hard to prevent the 1,100 students in the school from opening the doors -- fire codes stipulate that all doors must be unlocked from the inside when a school is occupied.

DPS reported 64 arsons last year, three of those at Central, according to the state.

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[/url]

Any volunteers?  Experts stumped.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Sean C on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:37pm
You can't blame the Government if you elected the worst President in the history of the United States.

It took 8 years for him to destroy us, he failed at everything his whole life, what did we really expect. His father failed too, its genetic.

I do believe we'll push through this, but I think we need to hit bottom first, and we're not quite there yet.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Sean C on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:47pm

Kevin_M wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:31pm:
Any volunteers?  Experts stumped.


HTP  ;) Its a good start at least.

You can treat the flu symptoms when your sick, or you can get a flu shot and not get sick at all.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:54pm

Sean C wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:37pm:
You can't blame the Government if you elected the worst President in the history of the United States.

It took 8 years for him to destroy us...

How can that be? He's only been in office for a little over a month.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Jonny on Feb 26th, 2009 at 9:08pm

Brew wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:54pm:

Sean C wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:37pm:
You can't blame the Government if you elected the worst President in the history of the United States.

It took 8 years for him to destroy us...

How can that be? He's only been in office for a little over a month.


That's all it took!...God help us!

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Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Kevin_M on Feb 26th, 2009 at 10:36pm

Sean C wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:47pm:
HTP  ;) Its a good start at least.


It's may not be for anyone though.  We just had high schoolers come up to the store, a couple bought a few cheap items and I conversed, they were real nice.
 In the office I look on the security camera and there's a dozen lounging in the corner out of sight.  Called over Henry the maintenance guy to inconspicuously mop around the area and get the story.  
 Sure enough, through the doors came a few others and a fight immediately broke out, they were meeting to settle something.  Henry is yelling, I run over, we're breaking up a go-at'm affair.  
 Must have been respect for age, or my intimidating buff appearance ;) (Henry also told them you go here, you go with me, he's not kidding, nuts!) but the newcomers were escorted out and the dozen others kept there.  The overflowing adrenalin took some talking, one paced with clenched fists back and forth, but I got a handshake and apology for the incident.  After a time spent, we were assured the others had departed, I mentioned they could hang ten more minutes to cool but they filed out with down to earth sobered composure.  
 Good kids, but something personal got blown up between the two groups.

An on-edge confronting another time diffused a bad one, my young crew rallied behind me and he raced out the door.  Two days later he's in jail for stabbing someone.  

It certainly hasn't always worked that way, I've seen things escalate very fast without arriving in time, but you're right about prevention, Sean, there has to be some sort of presence around with eyes and ears sometimes.  

I just saw a manager that I helped train at our store and was transferred to a harder part of town, nice guy, the preacher I call him.  He expressed a frustrating concern dealing in the new atmosphere and saying he missed being back with us.  But I can't help thinking how his presence there has indeed been a part of what has NOT happened.  He's 6' 5" and a 20 year army veteran.  Cool, calm, collected, but calmly firm.  Identifiable in his two-inches-in-front-of-you-this-is-the-way-it'll-be collected and casual voice when he hears an insubordinate answer.

Presence makes a difference.  You want security?  If they should need it as civilians, I'd might think hiring and paying guys coming back from action ending their service term a very good example and investment paired in twos with communication available in poor urban district schools.  Ahhh, but those distracting girls.  ;)



Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 27th, 2009 at 12:54am
Barb:

One of the worst ideas ever is term limits. Rudolf Giuliani couldn't run for mayor again in 2002 after 9/11 because of them. This appears to be changing now....finally.

Term limits always come to the fore by a party that gets clobbered at the polls. The GOP got all over them a few years ago but then their zeal for them just seemed to fade when they found that they were winning some elections.  Hard to imagine. The 22nd Amendment is the worst one and only exists because of Franklin Roosevelt.

Dumb idea.

Charlie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by BarbaraD on Feb 27th, 2009 at 6:18am
Charlie - I disagree about term limits. When someone stays in DC for 40 years and has to be propped up to pushed the button to vote - he needs to go HOME!

Those guys that have been there too long have lost touch with the people back home. They've gotten into the DC scene and don't have a clue what's going on in their districts or states - it's just politics and making deals. The owe their souls to lobbists and not the people they're supposed to be representing. They need to go HOME and live with the laws they've been so quick to implement.

And they need to be paying Social Security and not getting their salary after they're outta there. I really think they need to live under the same rules as the rest of us peons.

And Bob as far as curing cancer - that's a noble idea, but we've got to educate some kids first so we can get some doctors to do it. Right now we're mass producing a bunch of lemmings who can't read and write from our public schools.

And before all hell breaks loose - I got a great education in public schools (back in the day). We had teachers who SAW that we got educated and parents who SAW that we got educated. We RESPECTED the teachers (and still do the ones who are still alive). But parents (and yes I think they're at fault here) don't TEACH their kids RESPECT today and TEACHERS don't EARN it and kids are taught so much BULL that they're missing the 3 R's in school.

The government is to blame for a lot of the loss of education in public schools with all their damn rules (can't do this and have to teach this and all the BS), but parents have let it happen, so....

Building new buildings and getting new equipment isn't going to educate kids - time and patience is and it's going to take qualified teachers and parents who give a damn. And before anyone takes offense -- there are still some good teachers in this country and there are still parents who give a damn -- just not enough of them.

If you really want to see how far behind our education system is sponser an exchange student for a semester or a year. You can see how advanced they are in comparrison to our kids. It was an eye opener to me - I watched four of them (2 from Brazil, one from the Netherlands and one from Germany).

I hope Obama CAN do something about the education system in this country. It is broken and needs to be fixed. I have a grandson and now a new grandchild coming along who will need an education. I'd like to see them get one.

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Bob P on Feb 27th, 2009 at 6:48am
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OUCH!!!  We're going to be taxed into oblivion in the next few years.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by BarbaraD on Feb 27th, 2009 at 7:05am
Oh well, as my old Daddy always said, "The only two things that are certain in this old world are Death and Taxes." :)

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by monty on Feb 27th, 2009 at 8:07am

wrote on Feb 26th, 2009 at 8:11pm:
If you care for your children, grandchildren and even great grandchildren's future, and you have the priviledge to vote, it is important to be critical in your viewing of each and every policy being churned out by your government, and take action where needed.


Yes, government needs checks and balances to keep it in line. But controlling tuberculosis, building roads, schools and universities and developing utilities are all examples of things that government can do, and often do well.  Government can become the enemy, but is not always the enemy. Nor is it the only enemy to worry about in one's own society. Any organization or entity can assume too much power and become a problem, even if that group is ordinarily considered necessary and provides a needed function. Corporations and religion, for example, can become very large, powerful and abusive. But it would be wrong to attack all corporations, or all religion as a matter of principal.  


(Tuberculosis note: We've got lunch with the county health department today, as a person from another office that visited our office for two days of training was just diagnosed with TB. Chances are low that anyone here contracted the disease, but good to know that people are on top of the situation - education, testing and (when needed) treatment can keep things under control.)

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 27th, 2009 at 8:53am
Let's see Bob:

Now that we have an admisitration that looks at science as science rather than medieval blasphemy, just maybe some new cancer and other developments will be allowed.

Barb: Term limits is still a terrible idea.

I'm not so afraid of the government. Government is the real enemy when adminstrations try to codify torture, wiretapping without oversight, ingoring Congressional summons and snooping in your local library to see what you've been reading. Making it easy and legal is what communists do.

Why so many have put up with governmental abuse on the Bush scale is mindboggling. Snooping in my bedroom windows isn't what American conservatives are supposed to be all about.

Charlie



Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Bob P on Feb 27th, 2009 at 9:48am
I suppose it's a matter of criticizing Bush's morals or Obama's lack there of.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Callico on Feb 27th, 2009 at 5:34pm

deltadarlin wrote on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:33pm:
Jindal is a politican who has never had a real job outside of government.  Yeah, he saved the Dept of Health and Hospitals when he was head of DHH in this state.  But, you might want to ask all those homeless crazy people if they have a place to go (he shut the state hospitals down).   He cut mental health services, services to the elderly were cut, services to rural parishes were cut.  

He touted ethics reform as part of his campaign and then had the audacity to talk about how his ethics progam put LA among the best in the nation?  He even talked about Louisiana being on the top of the list in regards to ethics reform.  BFS.    Well, that's yet to be seen.  What's on paper doesn't always apply to the real world. read what the institute actually had to say.

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I have no use for the man.  The only person Bobby Jindal is interested in is Bobby Jindal and I can almost guarantee you that he is setting himself up to run for president in 2012.


And our "beloved" President has accomplished what in his long and illustrious career???

JC

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 27th, 2009 at 6:04pm

Charlie wrote on Feb 27th, 2009 at 8:53am:
Barb: Term limits is still a terrible idea.

In my mind, it's tantamount to making the entire class stay after school every day for all of eternity because two kids were shooting spitballs at each other. It works if you do it once because of peer pressure. But it makes no sense at all to do it forever and ever.

The voting booth is supposed to be the ultimate term limit. When it's not, the voters get what they deserve.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 27th, 2009 at 8:36pm
Charlie I respect you opinion but the problem is incumbency seems to be an insurmountable advantage so much so that terms limits may be the only way to thin the heard.  Look at the money a regular citizen would have to raise to even get into the primary much less a runoff.

Our legislators work an average of two days a week. Most of the other time they are raisin campaign funds to get reelected. The lobbies are backing their proven regular guy who has countless times supported their selfish interests. A person who wishes to serve and change the system doesn't have a prayer. You know this in your heart.

Another reason I believe term limits should be considered is the stupidity of the American voter. "I'm going to vote for Blank because he's understands my needs and he's going to help me". You can lead sheep to entitlements but you can't make him think. At least with alternatives the ignorant may make a lucky good call every now and then.

The other reason is that it may open the door to Independent candidates. You remember when the League of Women Voters use to host the Presidential debates? No longer. They wanted to include the Independent candidate. The only time I remember the Democrats and Republicans unanimously agreeing to something is when they decided to choose another organization to sponsor the event. The qualification rules prohibit the slightest chance of another Party option.

It's rigged Charlie. Ultimately they make the rules and I don't think you will have to worry about your opinion in this matter being threatened by an alternative line of thought.

Steve G




Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by BarbaraD on Feb 27th, 2009 at 8:44pm
Brew maybe you and Charlie are right. I've worked my rear off to get some "local" and a few state "career" politicians out of office and suceeded with a few (thank goodness - they needed to be relieved of their duties) but just ran out of steam on the federal level. Some of those guys just are a little too big for me to manage. Some of you younger kids are just gonna have to take up the torch....

Maybe if we just put a big fence around DC and cut off all communications for a couple of years...... (and then I woke up.....)

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Brew on Feb 27th, 2009 at 8:50pm
No, we need to put bars on the Capitol building. We could contain a great deal of the felonious activity in the country.

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by cavalier on Feb 27th, 2009 at 8:51pm
you changed presidents ? what happened to bushy then?

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Charlie on Feb 28th, 2009 at 12:53am
Not all these guys are as bad as Bush. I think it should be possible for a president to run again somewhere down the line. You British types seem to enjoy it..... :o 8-)

It's New York State legislators that have the lock on their districts. It takes a liftetime to unseat these old geezers unless they wind up in the East River.

Charlie

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by Artonio on Feb 28th, 2009 at 12:58am
I doubt that term limits will come to pass... but I would recommend after every two terms... Cut their pay in half and reduce their medical benefits and retirement plans.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 28th, 2009 at 10:07am

Callico wrote on Feb 27th, 2009 at 5:34pm:

deltadarlin wrote on Feb 24th, 2009 at 8:33pm:
Jindal is a politican who has never had a real job outside of government.  Yeah, he saved the Dept of Health and Hospitals when he was head of DHH in this state.  But, you might want to ask all those homeless crazy people if they have a place to go (he shut the state hospitals down).   He cut mental health services, services to the elderly were cut, services to rural parishes were cut.  

He touted ethics reform as part of his campaign and then had the audacity to talk about how his ethics progam put LA among the best in the nation?  He even talked about Louisiana being on the top of the list in regards to ethics reform.  BFS.    Well, that's yet to be seen.  What's on paper doesn't always apply to the real world. read what the institute actually had to say.

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I have no use for the man.  The only person Bobby Jindal is interested in is Bobby Jindal and I can almost guarantee you that he is setting himself up to run for president in 2012.


And our "beloved" President has accomplished what in his long and illustrious career???

JC



Just a wee bit confused by your question here.  What does me talking about Jindal have to do with the current president?

Title: Re: Be Critical In Your Viewing
Post by jimmers on Feb 28th, 2009 at 10:31am
From the looks of the chart that Bob posted, Slick Willy did a pretty good job and actually moved the budget defecit that he inherited into the black ink. Looks like a hellava defecit jump from 07 to 08, probably the largest swing on the chart. I wonder what caused that? (Sarcasm)

It never ceases to amaze me how this same group of people that have been on the team for the last 8 years stood on the sidelines, watched and aided by their non participation, our countries financial situation go down the shitter. Now suddenly since November, they all have decided that they want to be the starting quarterback because they know exactly what to do? Gimme a fucking break.


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