Just watched a tv program about the EV1 don't know how dated this subject is out there but it got me thinking about the economic climate and global warming.
What are the prospective governments going to nail their flags to now?
Saving the climate or live today pay tomorrow.
Personally when you look at the ecological and vast costs in producing altrernatives it makes me wonder.
Does anyone realise the infrastructure to introduce and manufacture new equipment to even create an alternative power source to achieve a state of where we are today.
Wind farms in the UK could not be installed quickly enough to meet the demand required when we supposedly run out of power and then only will have a life span of 20 years. you still have to dig up resources and use power for an alternative.
I think it's just a political game they're playing.
An alternative green power source is needed quickly if the oil companies don't bury it first.

Sod the future give us the money now,I don't care what happens in 50 years time,    
Do I ????????

To be honest, we can't even produce enough power in the summertime to run our Energy Star air conditioners.  

How in the hell do we expect to plug in all these cars?  

Quote:

who killed the electric car

Could be performance from battery development that's kept it limited.


And if needed, replacing one in a Prius could run $3000.


I could be wrong but I think electricity storage has been a problem ever since we've used it.

BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote on Mar 31^st, 2009 at 11:31pm:

To be honest, we can't even produce enough power in the summertime to run our Energy Star air conditioners.   How in the hell do we expect to plug in all these cars?

Most power plant generators run 24/7, and they are sized for peak load. So at night, there is a huge amount of capacity that is not used. We could meet about 75% of our passenger car energy needs right there - it would greatly reduce use of gasoline. And it would reduce air pollution, because the emissions are concentrated and easier to treat.

Some areas don't have enough local peak capacity, and when every air conditioner is constantly running on a 100 degree day, it will strain the system.  Can that be dealt with? Sure.  

When there is a frost in my neighborhood, our roof is the only one coated with white crystals - all the other houses have very little insulation, and the heat escapes to prevent frost.  In the summer, heat flows the other way, and my neighbors AC runs more than mine.  The $1500 I spent on insulation was a great investment - it has lowered my electricity bills and is paying a nice dividend - about $30 a month. It will pay for itself in 4 years, and after that, will yield $360 a year, for as long as I own the house.  If electricity prices go up (as they tend to do), the return on investment will be even greater.  Beats the heck out of my return from Wall Street.

monty wrote on Apr 1^st, 2009 at 9:20am:

Most power plant generators run 24/7, and they are sized for peak load. So at night, there is a huge amount of electricity that is produced and not used. We could meet about 75% of our passenger car energy needs right there - it would greatly reduce use of gasoline.

Monty,

You don't understand power generation very well. Just because you have a certain generating capacity doesn't mean it's running balls-to-the-wall 24/7.  Actually, there is a very small amount of electricity that is "produced and not used". A typical car these days is probably capable of running 110 mph, and will consume something like 10 or 12 gallons of fuel per hour doing it - but is that representative of how it runs all the time?  Hope not!  Same with a power plant.

But all that aside, the "alternative green power source" that Cavalier longs for has been available for about 50 years.  It's called "nuclear power".

Regards,
Jim

Kilowatt3 wrote on Apr 1^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

But all that aside, the "alternative green power source" that Cavalier longs for has been available for about 50 years.  It's called "nuclear power". Regards, Jim

Lol.  You keep your common sense out of here, Dude!!  

Battery technology is coming. Eventually it may be something more exotic, but the most immediate will be Lithium due to its inherently high watt density. There is a huge consortium looking for a place to land right now. It's first mission is to complete the R&D process, then go into full scale production of automotive batteries for both hybrid and plug-in applications.

It's going to happen much faster than people think - the bottle neck has always been the batteries - and we are about to jump that hurdle hurdle for the first time in small, but meaningful way. If you recall Monty's thread on White Zombie, the electric car was turning 11's using Dewalt drill motor batteries..........

Sure, it would be nice to use some of the existing off peak generating capacity that is available, but that is still inherently inefficient because of the thermal energy waste when compared to localized cogeneration plants that actually use the waste heat.

Marc wrote on Apr 1^st, 2009 at 10:46am:

It's going to happen much faster than people think - the bottle neck has always been the batteries - and we are about to jump that hurdle hurdle for the first time in small, but meaningful way. If you recall Monty's thread on White Zombie, the electric car was turning 11's using Dewalt drill motor batteries..........

We're getting REAL close:

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Still a little pricey, and needs a little longer range, but getting REAL close to being practical!

Regards,
Jim

Kilowatt3 wrote on Apr 1^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

Monty, You don't understand power generation very well. Just because you have a certain generating capacity doesn't mean it's running balls-to-the-wall 24/7.  Actually, there is a very small amount of electricity that is "produced and not used". A typical car these days is probably capable of running 110 mph, and will consume something like 10 or 12 gallons of fuel per hour doing it - but is that representative of how it runs all the time?  Hope not!  Same with a power plant. But all that aside, the "alternative green power source" that Cavalier longs for has been available for about 50 years.  It's called "nuclear power". Regards, Jim

I changed my post prior to you posting your comment - changed it from electricity generated to electrical capacity.  The capacity is there, but you are right that it will take additional energy input.

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This would be a far cleaner alternative to nuclear. Andrew.

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Theres a video at the bottom of this link that shows what iceland is doing. Andrew.

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2009 at 9:49pm:

Does anyone realise the infrastructure to introduce and manufacture new equipment to even create an alternative power source to achieve a state of where we are today. Wind farms in the UK could not be installed quickly enough to meet the demand required when we supposedly run out of power and then only will have a life span of 20 years. you still have to dig up resources and use power for an alternative.

The infrastructure to build windmills is not so different than the infrastructure needed to produce cars, washing machines or other modern devices. If the UK can build nuclear missiles and submarines, they have the ability to make decent windmills.  It is easier to scale up production of cars or windmills than nuclear plants.

It does take energy to build a windmill, but if it is a good design and placed in an area where the wind resource is high quality, the energy payback is 1 year or less.  If the life of the windmill is 20 years or more, that is a good positive return.  And of course, coal and nuclear plants also require a large amount of energy input - both for the initial plant, as well as the mining the fuel, refining and isotope separation (huge energy cost for nuclear) and shipping it (sometimes a big issue for coal).  

monty wrote on Apr 1^st, 2009 at 2:58pm:

......................but if it is a good design and placed in an area where the wind resource is high quality, the energy payback is 1 year or less.

Nope.

Think about it, with a 100% ROI everyone would put all of their money into it. Put $50K of your 401K in and it's $100K the next year, then put that $100K.....

Without incentives, it's running about the same as photovoltaic: 7 to 10 years depending your local utility costs.

With economy of scale, this will continue to get more cost effective very rapidly.

Marc

You are right that payback on capital investment is several years - but I was talking about the energy payback needed to produce the windmill. Cavalier was questioning whether windmills produced more energy in their life than is needed to produce them - they do, plus a lot.  

Look here at the bottom point:
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Sorry, I stand corrected. I tend to look at things on an overall common sense basis.

Marc

One problem with windmills, like other energy sources, has been that people tend not to want them around where they can be seen or heard. The classic "not in my back yard" attitude.

Well, the economics are important - I would say that wind has dropped close to other conventional sources, and with mass production, would drop even more (as you noted).  Also there are externalities - when we pay for electricity, someone downwind is eating the pollution without getting paid.

Marc wrote on Apr 1^st, 2009 at 4:11pm:

...I tend to look at things on an overall common sense basis. Marc

Dammit, Marc - There you go trying to muddy the waters again!  ;D

All this wind talk has made me respond, if we all had a diet of beans we could develop a nano turbine for the rear of our jeans.
Charging our I pod, Mobile on the move, it would certainly help with kids exercise and help with third world bean producers and give us a smug satisfaction.
Anyway question in hand, what do you think?

We have 10 years to put the measures in place to provide a ‘diversified, clean energy supply which is not dependent on Russia or the Middle East.’
Renewable targets may have to be scrapped, and the lifespan of our ageing coal and nuclear power stations extended, in the face of an energy security challenge that must take priority over climate change.
And a recurrent theme in this analysis is government’s failure to grasp the fundamental engineering demands of its own proposals.
Take the renewable industry. In its desire to meet its 2020 renewable targets, the government recently announced plans to develop 25GW of offshore wind capacity - which would require the installation of around 7000 turbines. This means we need to install around 4 per week between now and 2020, a huge increase in the best offshore installation rate achieved anywhere, and a challenge compounded by the fact that the UK currently has just one of the £75m barges required to do this.
Our nuclear ambitions are also hamstrung by the realities of the world of engineering, and that current plans take little account of the fact that Britain will have to join the queue for services of one of the handful of companies capable of building nuclear power stations. And while applauding the establishment of the new national skills academy for nuclear, much more needs to be done to address the gap that will be created by the impending retirement of many of the industry’s skilled workers.
All in all, another timely reminder that while our financial institutions crumble around us, the skills of engineers are going to be in much demand over the years ahead.

If we all haven’t all sold up and moved abroad.

wrote on Apr 1^st, 2009 at 8:10pm:

In its desire to meet its 2020 renewable targets, the government recently announced plans to develop 25GW of offshore wind capacity - which would require the installation of around 7000 turbines.

We've a similar plan being looked at here, a wind farm in the middle of the Great Lakes, with a target of 2020.


Quote:

LANSING -- Gov. Jennifer Granholm today ordered creation of an advisory panel to begin looking at siting offshore windmills on the Great Lakes. ... In her State of the State address Tuesday, she called for reducing by 45 percent Michigan's dependence on out-of-state energy sources, mainly coal, by 2020. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

sound fruitful, and challenging


Quote:

engineering demands

since our lakes seem to freeze over in winter.

I read Tesla Motors sold a 1000 of it's battery packs to Daimler AG for their Mercedes Smart EV, hopes for eventually increasing to tens of thousands.  

The dealer a mile down the road has a nice white one with black trim parked in front I see on my way to work.  Neat car.

Wonder if any Tesla estate gets paid for use of the name.  Poor sharp dressed guy could have used it.


Michigan is trying to court battery engineers and manufacturers to create a hub for the industry.  GM will assemble a LG Chem battery here for the Volt and an alliance is forming with Oakridge National Labs, the U.S. Dept. of Defense, Sweden, and private partners to work on the lithium ion and other new batteries.

Asia apparently holds a technology edge with the small appliance manufacturing concentrated there.  Sanyo and Panasonic did a $9 billion linkup to dominate the nickel metal hybrid, next generation lithium ion batteries.  

Just some going on stuff, lots of automotive news around here.

I guess it's called advanced energy storage development. We could use something around the corner here.

Thought maybe those who are mechanically inclined might like to take a look at what one of our backcountry lodges did.

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They're completely off the grid.  All their power is produced by a small hydroelectric system, run off a 100-year-old Pelton wheel.  They produce much more power than they need.  

Abundant geothermal water on their property heats all their buildings, and supplies all their hot water needs--including some huge, splendid hot tubs.   :)  Very nice indeed, and just about the finest thing you can imagine after stomping around in the river all day, chasing fish with a skinny stick.

Like most backcountry lodges, it's pretty rough-and-ready.  Not at all a bad thing in my mind.  So much of what we experience these days is slick, commercialized and sanitized, put together by "somebody" we never see.

It's a relief sometimes to spend time in a place that's run by enthusiastic tinkerers and experimenters who cobble things together, and mess with stuff until it works.  Independent-minded people--self-reliant, and creative.  

I miss folks like that.  When I was a kid growing up in a rural area, there were quite a few of those types around.  They seem to have become an endangered species.

I think they're what Americans used to be like.

If anything new and truly innovative emerges that transforms our infrastructure one day, it'll be people like that who do it.

Not trying to advertise the place or anything.  It's just an example of what people can do if they put their minds to it.

Best,

George

Edit to add:  Click on the "Hydropower--green and clean" link to see more about their hydroelectric system.

[size=12]I saw this documentary on a cable channel some years ago. The thing looked good, ran well, and since it was such, GM refused to sell it. They leased it only.....many to entertainers for promotion. People loved it and it had a pretty decent range. It existed mostly because of some senisible pending mileage requirements in California that was of course killed by at least one committee member that big oil got to. Nothing new there of course and after the threat of requiring decent alternatives was ended, GM recalled all the cars and spent a lot of time literally crushing them so they wouldn't get in the way of business.......the same business that is such a shining example to the rest of us.

Lovely story

Charlie/size]

George wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2009 at 11:02am:

Thought maybe those who are mechanically inclined might like to take a look at what one of our backcountry lodges did. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

George,

Thanks for that - I love this kind of stuff and will checking it out in detail.

George,

You reminded me of a place I read* about last year also up your way.

At the Whitesides Dairy in Magic Valley, Steve and Brent Whitesides scrape manure produced by their six thousand dairy cows into covered tanks owned by Intrepid Technology and Resources, where it ferments withouth oxygen into gas.  Cleaned of carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfides, and water (along with nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium, of which the nitrogen and potassium are spread on nearby farm fields), the gas is then delivered directly to Intermountain Gas Company.  In its first year of operation, the dairy processed 10 million gallons of manure, producing enough pipeline-quality natural gas to heat five thousand homes.  Intrepid expects to recoup its $5 million investment in three years; in the future it expects to earn additional revenue by selling both carbon credits and the dried, leftover digested fiber, which makes a gardening product similar to peat moss.


But also, more along the lines of what you've said:


George wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2009 at 11:02am:

a place that's run by enthusiastic tinkerers and experimenters who cobble things together, and mess with stuff until it works.  Independent-minded people--self-reliant, and creative.   If anything new and truly innovative emerges that transforms our infrastructure one day, it'll be people like that who do it.

Some frontier spirit at Chena Hot Springs in Alaska, a place hammered together with pipes, wood, and wire salvaged from Valdez and Prudhoe Bay.  

Winner of the 2007 "top 100 R&D" projects in the nation (named by R&D magazine and the U.S. Dept. of Energy) is a Gothic palace carved entirely of ice at the cutting edge of geothermal energy.  It's story of geothermal energy production motivated by can-do guy Bernie Karl is full of this kind of modern innovative inventing.  Profit incentive soon from cap and trade for the innovators.  It's hard to get the whole complicated story online involving a school teacher, inventive nuclear physicist, and then some corporate research guys tinkering with an old jet engine lying around, but...

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undetailed of how it was done, short story:

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another, more recent:

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*Earth: The Sequel, 621.042 K


sorry, so slow with dial-up but wow, did this need modifying.    ::)

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