At a carefully staged faux “Rock Star” reception at CIA HQ on Monday, Weasel in Chief, a.k.a. the Marxist trained community organizer, who divulged State Secrets when he didn’t need to, said no one involved with enhanced interrogations would be prosecuted…  BTW, this propaganda was twittered to all the lamestream media with the buzzword “Rock Star” describing the reception at CIA so all the liberal droids masquerading as news reporters could dutifully parrot the phrase…  And they did...

You need to watch the video of the reception at CIA and judge for yourself.  I found it interesting that he said, “Mistakes were made” yet we’ve not been attacked here in the US since 9/11, and “Terrorists are not constrained by a Constitution.”  That hit home…  What he was really saying is he considers the Constitution of the United States a constraint!  Very telling…  Then he told members of the faux Rock Star reception that there would be no recrimination or investigations against people involved with the enhanced interrogations… until Tuesday when that changed…  

What happened?  Did all the radical left uber liberals from MoveOn.org or George Sorros who helped him get elected call in their IOUs to the chosen one Monday night?  Perhaps he had an epiphany after returning to the White House and TOTUS jumped ugly on him?  In any event, Tuesday he says he will leave prosecution of Bush administration officials who developed or provided legal opinions on the policy for enhanced interrogation methods and techniques up to AG Holder…  Any bets this will come to pass???  The odds are even money…  

So much for Anti-Americanism and America Bashing…  Not!  The Marxist trained community organizer has made that an administration policy!

His comment on the “moral bearing” of those involved with the interrogation policy was exceptional…  and only shows the true audacity of this uber radical liberal and Marxist trained community organizer who supports infanticide and voted to euthanize babies from botched abortions not to mention voting for abortions throughout his political career… That is some moral bearing he has… and it’s pointed straight to hell!

For the record, all military combat pilots and special forces warfare types go through Survival Evasion Resistance Escape (SERE) training including yours truly…  It’s been required training since the mid to late1950s…  There are a few others here at CH.com that have gone through this same training.  

We all received physicals and psychological evaluations prior to attending and yes we experienced the same interrogation methods and techniques that the Marxist trained community organizer gift wrapped and gave to the terrorists of the world.  The enhanced interrogation methods and techniques we experienced during SERE training included a combination of water boarding, sleep and food deprivation, facial slaps that water your eyes, “walling,” coffin boxes and dog houses so small and cramped they cut the circulation to your legs, a constant stream of verbal abuse designed to break you down psychologically, and much more.

For reference, I went through SERE training at the Air Force’s Eglin reservation, FL shortly after I was commission as a Navy Ensign in 1967, and I also went through the Navy’s SERE school at Camp Warner Springs, CA in 1970 just prior to deployment in a fighter squadron on USS Hancock to Vietnam.  Neither course was pleasant, but the training was mandatory, and it prepared us for what could happen if we were shot down.  If you’re doing the math that was 39 years ago and this form of SERE training started ten years earlier.  Tens of thousands have attended since then so this didn’t start after 9/11…  And you can bet al Qaeda terrorists are busy setting up their own SERE training camps as we speak.

The Marxist trained community organizer doesn’t care that he’s made us less safe from attacks of terrorism…  He’s insulated himself from any recriminations by passing this off to Attorney General Holder by pulling a Clinton, who, when questioned about his administration’s role in the Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas government perpetrated massacres by saying, “Talk to Attorney General Janet Reno…  She was in charge…”  

The only thing the Marxist trained community organizer cares about in this matter is that he’s perpetuated Bush bashing and Bush Derangement Syndrome so he can blame anything bad that happens during his term in office on Bush…

Good people of Clusterville, what we have here is very dirty politics.  In reality, it’s little more than banana republic politics topped off with a dose of Chicago mob mentality where the party that wins the election prosecutes the party that lost in order to eliminate the competition.  

This is also very damaging to our National intelligence community…  Not only do they need to guard against threats posed by our enemies…  now they need to guard against attacks from within the US by ambulance chasing lawyers and uber liberal idiot politicians that want to destroy our Nation anyway and take us into communism or worse….

I know there are some of you that feel political discussions like this have no place on the boards so permit me make this discussion a bit more relevant…  

We are cluster headache sufferers and supporters and the fact that we gather here at CH.com creates a powerful bond few other groups enjoy.  The medications we require are essential in maintaining an acceptable quality of life.  While not optimum, these medications are far better than suffering the terrible pain we would need to endure all too frequently without any means of intervention…  

Now here’s where the rubber meets the road…  politics, and more importantly, politicians and their political appointees, are shaping laws, policies, and regulations that affect the availability and quantity of these essential medications.   It’s no secret there is already rationing associated with imitrex (sumatriptan succinate) injections.  Some are limited by their healthcare coverage to nine such injections a month…  

That limit was imposed as a result of Pharmacy Clinical Policy Bulletins developed by Medical Insurance companies to limit their exposure to the expense of providing costly medications used by migraine sufferers... not cluster headache sufferers.  

Politicians and political appointees play a major role on rationing our medications as well…  The Commissioner of the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission gets involved by recommending policy on matters like this to the White House Office of Health Reform as well as the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) was also involved.  CMS and HHS are run by political appointees…  most of whom are faithfully executing a strategy that favors government run Universal Health Care and also to reduce costs.

Not surprisingly, one of the big pharmaceutical companies played a role in all this by suggesting nine injections a month as the maximum limit of dosing for migraine sufferers to ensure a consistent revenue stream from these medications…  and lobbying Congress to make it so…

There’s also legislation that is effectively limiting home oxygen therapy by forcing competitive bidding for these services paid for through Medicare and Medicaid and also placing a cap on expenses that home care delivery companies can charge for maintenance.  Due to the unintended consequences of poorly written legislation, the competitive bidding provisions called for by this legislation have been temporarily put on hold as net effect would put thousands of Mom & Pop home healthcare providers out of business making delivery expenses that are recoverable, much higher as the essential home oxygen supplies would need to be trucked greater distances by the larger firms that won the competitive bids…

Too many cluster headache sufferers are still having problems getting oxygen therapy as the rules governing coverage for these medical expenses are based exclusively on legislation and policy set by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services at HHS in treating people suffering from COPD…  not cluster headaches.

When you boil this down you can see that politics, politicians, and political appointees have, and will continue to have, the potential to impact the quality of your life as cluster headache sufferers and supporters.  

Unlike the big pharmaceutical and medical insurance firms or their lobbyists who line the pockets of politicians with political donations to keep them in office, we don’t have a lobby that can go up on the hill to plead our plight as cluster headache sufferers.  That mission is up to each of us as cluster headache sufferers and supporters by contacting the members of Congress from our respective States to let them know how damaging their legislation is becoming to our wellbeing.

On a related note, the Cap in Trade legislation (read carbon tax) is back in the spotlight with hearings up on the hill and it should concern you…  Even the Marxist trained community organizer says passage of this legislation he proposed said, “Electricity costs will skyrocket.”  

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Estimates indicate as much as a $700 to $1,200 increase in yearly electric utility costs.  OBTW, that doesn’t include other fossil fuel energy consuming activities like driving, flying, or manufacturing, growing, and trucking the goods you buy or the food you eat to market.  The total increase in cost of the Cap in Trade legislation could reach $3000 per family a year.

Even the oracle of Omaha shoots holes in this bit of legislation…

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You can bury your head in the sand saying you don’t’ care or that political discussion don’t belong here on the CH.com boards…  You have every right to say that…  However, if you took the time to get involved, you would soon find that politics and politicians are affecting us as cluster headache sufferers and supporters in many ways and as US citizens, in more ways than ever…

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!

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"In my judgment," Levin said, "the report represents a condemnation of both the Bush administration's interrogation policies and of senior administration officials who attempted to shift the blame for abuse such as that seen at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan to low-ranking soldiers."

You are full of it.
I wish you would stop.

I love reading your op/ed pieces, Batch. Far be it from me to ask you, or anyone I might disagree with, to stop.

I read blogs too:

[quote]Do you have a conservative relative or friend who has suddenly started talking about how Obama is a radical socialist who seeks to destroy capitalism?  Have they been talking about Fascism, Nazi Germany, Big Brother, and the like?  I do, and I've also been seeing this type of rhetoric out on the message boards.  

Not only that, but a handful of Billionaires and right wing think tanks, in concert with FOX News (I think it's about time these guys dropped the "Fair and balance" slogan), successfully created an Astroturf (fake grassroots) teabagging movement, tricking thousands of conservatives to take to the streets last Wednesday to essentially protest their own tax cut and a 4% tax hike on billionaires!

Why have so many seemingly gone crazy?  Because the right wing propagandists on cable News and talk radio have been pumping them full of fear and conspiracy theories since the day Obama has been inaugurated.  Frankly, I think we'd all be better off as a society if people would turn off the TV and pick up a newspaper.  I put together a YouTube video to give you a little sample of the fear mongering, ignorant belligerence, and general stupidity that is being peddled about Obama. Warning: watching this may cause IQ to drop considerably.[/quote]

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[quote]Kind of funny all this blather about fascism. The some hallmarks of fascism, as I'm sure you know Goldstein, include corporate control of government, religion mixing with government and an anti-intellectual streak (see the link below for a more inclusive list). They sound pretty much like the previous administration who now that the sh&t has hit the fan is hardly mentioned by the "liberal" media. Hmmm...


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No, please don't stop.
Cheap entertainment is almost impossible to find these days.

vig wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 5:12pm:

You are full of it. I wish you would stop.

I find it disheartening that one would feel the need to hurl insults rather than hit the 'ignore' button.

This was the reason I deleted my profile... people just can't be civil about these topics.

Batch (Pete) laid out a very passionate case and even tried to explain *why* he feels this is an important topic for us to care about.  I don't see any insults being hurled at CH members (unless, like most liberals, you're insulted by being called a liberal)

I like a lively exchange, be it about politics or the latest Idol. I tend to be silent, as I don't care to involve myself. That's my choice.
Pete likes to share his insight-that's his choice.
Paul prefers not to read it-see above
Do we all have a right to our own actions? Yes........
Pete, keep sharing.
Paul, keep ignoring.
And I will keep silent.
BUT ONE THING-
We ALL have a responsibility to treat each other with respect, regardless of how we feel about what is posted.
Pete and Vig, you are both respected members of this community, and I soo don't wish to see you at loggerheads......

SOO>..........

How bout them Dodgers? have they left California yet?
Who IS their quarterback these days?

*feeble attempt at highjack and levity...
Cathi :D  

I have read everyone of Batch's comments and honestly tried to do so with the intention of becoming informed. The second part of the original post is really quite good, slanted but good. Unfortunately the first part is way out of the stadium.
How can anyone expect a "discussion" when the POTUS is referred to as a marxist and a weasel and every second or third senetence is a direct insult to the man and the office. This is not the seed for discussion this is in your face your wrong and I'm right commentary.

That doesn't even qualify as a spat, let alone loggerheads. Jeez, louise! On a political thread, we are supposed to play nice and not disagree? NOPE!

By the way....Pete, love your recipes, but disagree with your politics...I too think you are full of it. :)

:-* KJ

Quote:

Why You Should Care

Quote:

The attempted awareness desired, but yet attaining...

an ever expanding wildfield of indifference is... a mystery?

Cathi_Pierce wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 6:06pm:

How bout them Dodgers? have they left California yet? Who IS their quarterback these days? *feeble attempt at highjack and levity... Cathi :D

Now Cathi, you oughta know that the Dodgers don't have a quarterback!  Who is their point guard?  They thought about moving to Louisiana, but everytime the pitcher threw a ball, the damned mosquitos thought it was a bug and carried it off.

Heh heh...  watching you push liberal buttons certainly makes for an amusing read.  

A shame you took 2000-2008 off.
 
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karma wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 6:39pm:

How can anyone expect a "discussion" when the POTUS is referred to as a marxist and a weasel

Nothing new, FDR was beaten to a pulp in most of the daily papers every day. The CEOs, etc. of the corporations that produced our weapons and other war materiel, were so steamed that they never used his name. The least inflamatory name they used was: "That man in the White House." One of them left the country for the west indies to get away from all the "socialist New Dealers"........... that in effect, saved capitalism from itself.

Nothing is new.

Charlie

Quote:

How can anyone expect a "discussion" when the POTUS is referred to as a marxist and a weasel and every second or third senetence is a direct insult to the man and the office. This is not the seed for discussion this is in your face your wrong and I'm right commentary. Bush bashing comes to mind, it's all his fault. "Anything but Bush". Bush this or that... ALL IS fair in love, war and politics, or is that just for Republicans or Democrats ???

Smile and enjoy, it won't hurt..

Well, I for one, enjoy the political reprotree (I know I misspelled that one). It's interesting to see how people "really" feel. I think a lot of it is bunk, but that's just my opinion.

Me, I write Congress (and the President and VP) about once a week where I think it might do a little good (at least they answer me most of the time). In fact just this week the Pres announced that he was appointing some nice folks to go thru the tax code and rewrite it.... gee I suggested that back right after he was elected - ya think he was listening???? He didn't go by my suggestions as to how it should be done, but.... it's a start. :)

But our government is in the only one we've got right now, so instead of putting it down, I think we should jump in and offer suggestions to our elected officials and try to HELP it out all we can. After all WE elected those dolts in DC (and our states) so it's up to US to see that they do the job we sent them up there to do.

And if those Dodgers move to Louisiana they're gonna have to retrain their Guards - that mud will really confuse them.... ::)

Hugs BD

karma wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 6:39pm:

How can anyone expect a "discussion" when the POTUS is referred to as a marxist and a weasel...

I believe Batch has never referred to him as a "Marxist," but as a "Marxist trained community organizer."

Let's be fair - there's a pretty big difference. It would be like saying I'm a liberal because I have a liberal arts degree.

Now, the "weasel" part - you're on your own with that one.

Cathi_Pierce wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 6:06pm:

BUT ONE THING- How bout them Dodgers? have they left California yet? Who IS their quarterback these days?

Sorry Cathi I'm off no use to ya...!

What' a dodger is that like a jammy dodger...Mmmm Jammy dodgers.. :D

Lefty...!

Gotta like what Jay Leno said about the torture memos. It may be a problem now but then any memo on George Bush's desk was "torture" for him.

Charlie  

Quote:

FOX News has learned there were more than 30 meetings and briefings with members of Congress on the subject since 2002. The first such briefing dealt with the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, the Al Qaeda operations chief who ran the training camps in Afghanistan where the Sept. 11 hijackers were trained. Sources said California Rep. Nancy Pelosi, now the speaker of the House, attended the meeting with then-Rep. Porter Goss, R-Fla. (who later became CIA director), and she did not raise any objections. The briefings were given to the chairmen and ranking members of the intelligence committees in the House and Senate until 2006. That could cover Sen. John Rockefeller, W.Va., and Rep. Jane Harman, Calif., both Democrats, as well as Sen. Pat Roberts, Kan., Sen. Lindsey Graham, S.C., Sen. Richard Shelby, Ala., and Rep. Pete Hoekstra, Mich., all Republicans. Defenders of the interrogation program note that if Congress had wanted to kill the program, all it had to do was withhold funding, which didn't happen. Hoekstra, the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, has personally requested from Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair an unclassified list of names of all members of Congress who attended those briefings, complete with dates and locations. He told FOXNews.com the list will probably show many members were briefed "early and often."

Figures.  First it's no problem then it's hang the crumbs.  We'd be better off with a bunch of Miss California's running DC.  At least she speaks her mind and stands by it.

Bob P wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 1:52pm:

Figures.  First it's no problem then it's hang the crumbs.  We'd be better off with a bunch of Miss California's running DC.  At least she speaks her mind and stands by it.

We've heard that song before - and it usually isn't true. We were told that Congress was thoroughly briefed about wiretapping ... but the former administration left out the details about the widespread warantless surveillance of US citizens.  And then tried to pin the blame on those they kept in the dark.  Ooops, fail.

Brew wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 8:16am:

I believe Batch has never referred to him as a "Marxist,"

Feb. 10th


Quote:

the Marxist idiot

did so call him an idiot.   ;)




Quote:

but as a "Marxist trained community organizer."

Quote:

How bout them Dodgers?

Artful?  Well, I don't seem to be a dodger fan.

Kevin_M wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 3:13pm:

Brew wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 8:16am: I believe Batch has never referred to him as a "Marxist," Feb. 10th Quote: the Marxist idiot did so call him an idiot.   ;) [quote]but as a "Marxist trained community organizer."

Quote:

How bout them Dodgers?

Artful?  Well, I don't seem to be a dodger fan.


[/quote]
Okay, Kevin, so you went all the way back to Feb. 10 to find an example of where I was wrong. Mea culpa. But just wow. Batch certainly didn't refer to the TOTUS as a Marxist in this post.

That aside, I'm failing to see your point?

Quote:

I believe Batch has never ...

Different beliefs.

Kevin_M wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 3:47pm:

Quote: I believe Batch has never ... Different beliefs.

Alrighty then.

I'm not naive enough to believe that we haven't tortured people or will continue to do so. Every society has done it. BUT: The idea that it should be anywhere near legal or even codified in any form is disgusting and would put us on a par with our so-called enemies.

It's like profiling. It's done all the time. We all do it but it's not legal nor should it be codified. The same goes for the kind of wire-tapping done by the Bush crowd. It's old but at least we pretend not to do it. The idiocy of trying to make this stuff common or legal is stunning.

Charlie

When it keeps people safe and alive, like it did with the foiled plot to hit Los Angeles, I have no problem whatsoever with it. And when you compare CIA methods with cutting off a living man's head on video, I have even less problem with it.

To even think about prosecuting the lawyers advising the CIA is a very dangerous precedent, and is in my humble opinion, ethical quicksand.

Brew wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:09pm:

To even think about prosecuting the lawyers advising the CIA is a very dangerous precedent, and is in my humble opinion, ethical quicksand.

You are right - if we started to hold lawyers accountable for providing bad advice to their clients, there's no telling where it would end ... we might lose another sector of the economy.

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Charlie

Brew, You mentioned lawyers and ethics in the same sentence. That takes talent.
I gotta agree with the first paragraph though. The fight against terrorism requires different rules.

karma wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:35pm:

I gotta agree with the first paragraph though. The fight against terrorism requires different rules.

Cool. Some common ground.

Quote:

Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama's victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.

WSJ

I agree.

Ollie North and Iran Contra spring to mind.
Burying past indescresions is not always the best policy. Folks with power sometimes need to be reminded that we are or at least try to be a country based on good moral principles.

I fully realize the broader issues associated with this debate. Just where is the line drawn and to what degree are we willing to accept the possible necessity of these actions considering what these people have done to us?

Outside of all of the secondary blathering about how we as a people should not act in this manner or that we have breached treaties we've endorse and now may look like hypocrites, I sense something else.

What is the real reason for the outrage?  It seems to me that it is manifested in a palatable hatred for the former President, his staff and a real disdain for some on the other side of the aisle. How noble.

If this is the case, and I truly believe it to be so, I wish the people who are flaming this would just come out and say so. And don't try to tell me otherwise. Do they really think I am that stupid?

Once again, a crystal clear example of how we are being controlled and divided by these rouges. Pure politics...and little to do with noble constructs.

And when another attack happens, and it will because these people are patient and relentless, we will momentarily come together and then directly proceed to bickering about what went wrong and who is to blame.

In the mean time we will be burying our dead, should we be able to find the pieces, and building memorials while the terrorists plot another attack on a divided enemy.

This is a war and war is an unpleasant affair. And being nice to someone that would cut your high minded head completely off while yelling praise Allah is paramount to surrender.

My,... aren't we so civilized.

Steve G

I'm mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore !!! Obama promised change and better times ahead. Well---The Mets still suck and the only team they beat were the Brewers, but everyone is beating the Brewers--except the Phillies. "Yes We Can" --unfortunately We Can't right now.

Seeing the Indians beat the Yankees 22 - 4...I think, during the first week at the new gazillion dollar stadium warmed my heart though.

Charlie

Charlie wrote on Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:12am:

Seeing the Indians beat the Yankees 22 - 4...

The end days are truly here.

stevegeebe wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 11:33pm:

What is the real reason for the outrage?  It seems to me that it is manifested in a palatable hatred for the former President, his staff and a real disdain for some on the other side of the aisle. How noble. If this is the case, and I truly believe it to be so, I wish the people who are flaming this would just come out and say so. And don't try to tell me otherwise.

I really do think you have over-simplified it.  

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The soldier above was sentenced to 3 years and got a dishonorable discharge - for what now seems to be merely following orders.  Over 136 other members of the US military have also been disciplined or faced a courts-martial for similar actions. The people who gave the orders pretended that it was just a few bad apples that got perverted - they threw the front line under the bus to cover their own asses.  We know orders can from the top that authorized all forms of dishonorable conduct.  Military lawyers vigorously opposed the torture programs.  This is a situation that is need of review - is the Uniform Code of Military Justice something to live by, or is it merely a collection of good ideas for people to consider from time to time?

Perhaps Monty. I have come to a point in my life where I seek simplicity. It shows up in the buildings that I design and way I analyze everything I observe. There is an elegance in simplicity.

Still, I get the feeling that it is less about deeds and more about the those who ordered this and making certain that an political opportunity is not lost on this unfortunate sequence of events. That is the point I was trying to make.

Just a simple observation. Let me know if you see this as well.

Steve G (I)

Nothing can be done in the political arena that will not gather automatic support from some (and automatic opposition from others) simply for partisan reasons.  But I don't think that gives a blank check to who ever is in office.  

Nixon was highly polarizing and lots of people were happy to see him fall ... but that wasn't the deciding factor - when certain evidence was brought forward, even many Republicans told him his time was up ... leave on your own, or be forced out with even stronger consequences than losing the presidency.  

Fair enough Monty.  

There is a lot that smells here. And sadly it's going to be a grand spectacle to watch it play out. I think when it's all over both sides are going to get some of the stink.

How do they get anything done up there?  Oh!...that's right...they don't.

Steve G

What is Barak H. Obama trying to accomplish by telling the world these things?? Political whitewash? Show he's doing something?

The people in the pictures were punished and NO President, in those circumstances could have prevented those acts. Hindsight is 20/20.

We do learn from the past, but most important are the present and future. Our Government must always be questioned and forced to remain servants of the people. All the people.

In my opinion, telling our enemies and alies, during war time, things that could be delt with quietly, is just short of treason. The cost for politcal points is off base at best.

Don

Obama needs to flip again. Time to pretend that the last bunch was only stupid. Leave it alone. Sad, but I think I'm right. It would make an awful mess and I for one, don't need months of Watergate-like grilling by the Senate.

Charlie

Charlie wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 12:39pm:

Sad, but I think I'm right.

Nuthin' sad about that.

monty wrote on Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:52am:

I really do think you have over-simplified it.   The soldier above was sentenced to 3 years and got a dishonorable discharge - for what now seems to be merely following orders.  Over 136 other members of the US military have also been disciplined or faced a courts-martial for similar actions. The people who gave the orders pretended that it was just a few bad apples that got perverted - they threw the front line under the bus to cover their own asses.  We know orders can from the top that authorized all forms of dishonorable conduct.  Military lawyers vigorously opposed the torture programs.  This is a situation that is need of review - is the Uniform Code of Military Justice something to live by, or is it merely a collection of good ideas for people to consider from time to time?

Monty - there is a code of conduct, under the UCMJ - every soldier, sailor, airmen and marine KNOWS without question what is an unlawful order and has the means to act against unlawful orders.  Just because the order came down, does not excuse the soldier who carried it out.

Many of the 'career' military that I know, that take VERY  seriously the oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, have a set of principles.  One certain major was brave enough to even speak it when asked if the president gave a command in direct violation of the UCMJ to discard/destroy the constitution - his response was "I'd shoot the president".

That was said, I might add, before 9/11 and under Bush.

Political powers have no real meaning to the men and women who truly value their oath.  Commanders in chief come and go.  The constitution remains.

Cat

My 2 cents on this....

We, the American people ASKED for accountability and now that we're getting it, we don't want to face that it REALLY happened so we're wanting to hide our heads in the sand once again and make excuses... we tend to do that.

Some of the FACTS coming out now are showing that the INFO we received came out BEFORE the torture BEGAN and that we really received NO info after it began (check the facts), so did it really help?

Who's to be held accountable - time will tell. Should we prosecute? Who knows? Did it keep us safer - I don't think so, but I'm old what do I know? Are we more vunerable to attack today than we were back in Nov - I don't think so. I think we've gained some respect around the world since then.

I think it's a sad state of affairs when an ex-president or ex-vice-president can't leave the US without fear of being arrested for war crimes in a foreign country. But we don't want to think about that either do we?  Most of us just want things the way they were back before 9-11 when our world was safe and secure.

Hugs BD :-*

Barbara,

I guess time will be the judge on whether or not the Obama administration has made us safer or not.  I'm having flashbacks of the Carter years, and I don't feel safer, but let's wait and see how the next few years play out.  My guess is our enemies are growing more confident every day, but I hope I'm wrong.  It's never happened before, but I do hope I'm wrong.  :P

-Shawn

History is an accumulation of error.

Charlie

You know what really ticks me off - our education system... back in the OLD days we had history class drummed into our heads - reasoning - so we wouldn't keep making the same damn mistakes over and over - maybe LEARN something from it.

Today - kids barely get a "touch" of history and then it's open to question (ie, the holocost - did it REALLY happen?, etc). They don't even teach Texas History in Texas schools any more. I think this is outrageous... I had to suffer thru it - what makes kids today special!!! Seriously, what kind of roots are they going to grow up with if they don't know where they came from and what it took to get here?

And Shawn, I hope you're wrong too... but only time will tell. This time I hope the glass is half full...

Hugs BD :-*

I took college night courses in European and a smattering of world history. Try to find that in public school. Way back when, in my town, we had 1/2 school year in New York State history alone. We had a dedicated teacher.

Yer right Barb.

Charlie

BarbaraD wrote on Apr 29^th, 2009 at 12:38pm:

You know what really ticks me off - our education system... back in the OLD days we had history class drummed into our heads - reasoning - so we wouldn't keep making the same damn mistakes over and over - maybe LEARN something from it. Today - kids barely get a "touch" of history and then it's open to question (ie, the holocost - did it REALLY happen?, etc). They don't even teach Texas History in Texas schools any more. I think this is outrageous... I had to suffer thru it - what makes kids today special!!! Seriously, what kind of roots are they going to grow up with if they don't know where they came from and what it took to get here? And Shawn, I hope you're wrong too... but only time will tell. This time I hope the glass is half full... Hugs BD :-*

I think you are romanticizing the good ole days ... I was cleaning up some stacks once and came across my mother's history book, dated pre WWII.  It lamented the murder of the brave Colonel Custer at the hands of blood thirsty savages.  

History is written by the winners.

So you never get the full story even if you study all the history books in the world. So I am not sure that anyone truly will learn from the study of history. What kids in America study will not be the same history as say the kid of Germany will study, and when this war comes to an end (ya right) The children in the middle east will learn a different version then our kids.

:D

Gena

Kilroy 2.0 wrote on Apr 30^th, 2009 at 11:39am:

History is written by the winners. So you never get the full story even if you study all the history books in the world. So I am not sure that anyone truly will learn from the study of history. What kids in America study will not be the same history as say the kid of Germany will study, and when this war comes to an end (ya right) The children in the middle east will learn a different version then our kids. :D Gena

Agreed 100% Gena.

"History is written by those who've hung heros."  Quote from Braveheart.

What, then, would be the point of studying history if there's nothing to learn from it?

Brew wrote on Apr 30^th, 2009 at 11:59am:

What, then, would be the point of studying history if there's nothing to learn from it?

I sorry, I thought I was clear. There is a lot to be learned from history if you can find an accurate version of both sides of any conflict. I was writing in reference to earlier comment about schools and history books.

There you will only be taught about the tale that is acceptable at the time to both the Government and Teachers.

If I was clear and you were just giving me a hard time  :P

Gena

I don't know if you were unclear or if my antennae were retracted. Either way, you've made yourself clearer and I believe I understand.

Also, the study of conflict and resolution (and the resulting recollection) is only a small part of the study of history.

Having studied European intellectual history as a large part of my college career, my hackles get a little raised when I hear someone say that they're not sure if someone will truly learn from the study of history.

I think we're on the same page. ;)

Monty,

I'm really not romanacising the good old days. I remember back about 1960, I had to write a paper on the Korean War. There just wasn't that much info on it (too recent), but it made me curious to find out more and as I got older (and didn't have to), I found more and more info on it and actually "learned" something about it. Years and years later I found myself in Korea and it was really neat that I actually knew a little about the country.

The same with Europe. When I was in school, I had no idea I'd spend a good part of my life traveling to foreign countries, but I did. thanks to the history lessons I was "exposed" to, I actually knew a little about those countries and enjoyed them a whole lot more than I would have had I not had a clue.

There were places my husband and I saw that we'd never have thought about visiting had we not "heard" about them from history books - some were not exactly on the "tourist" path, but they were well worth visiting.

Guess I'm just a history buff, but I've got an OLD set of encyclopedias that were published in 1948 that I still love to go thru and see just how much the world has changed (ok come on - I have a "current set" but the old one is "fun").

The bad part about getting "older" is that you can remember most of history "first hand".... (shut up Chuck!) :)

Hugs BD :-*

At my previous job we hired a young lady from Estonia.  I loved her broken accent and was curious about life there.  

Her parents and her were unaware from school book teaching there was a Western Front in WWII.  Wasn't it all about Russia saving the world?

Know what you mean Kevin - I met a guy from Syria in the airport in Frankfort and we were talking (politics of all things) and he commented on our US President (Reagan) and said how "violent" he was. I was totally shocked, then he went on to say, he'd seen all his movies. And this was a well "educated" guy. I almost spit my drink all over him laughing, but he was serious as can be.

My mother gave him one of her business cards and for years afterwards she received a card from him around Christmas every year. He really was a nice guy.

So I guess it's all in what you're taught or see or hear...

Hugs BD :-*