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Daily Chat >> General Posts >> Why You Should Care http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1240423857 Message started by Batch on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 2:10pm |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by vig on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 5:12pm
You are full of it.
I wish you would stop. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 5:21pm
I love reading your op/ed pieces, Batch. Far be it from me to ask you, or anyone I might disagree with, to stop.
|
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by karma on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 5:25pm
No, please don't stop.
Cheap entertainment is almost impossible to find these days. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Shawn on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 5:53pm vig wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 5:12pm:
I find it disheartening that one would feel the need to hurl insults rather than hit the 'ignore' button. This was the reason I deleted my profile... people just can't be civil about these topics. Batch (Pete) laid out a very passionate case and even tried to explain *why* he feels this is an important topic for us to care about. I don't see any insults being hurled at CH members (unless, like most liberals, you're insulted by being called a liberal) |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Cathi_Pierce on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 6:06pm
I like a lively exchange, be it about politics or the latest Idol. I tend to be silent, as I don't care to involve myself. That's my choice.
Pete likes to share his insight-that's his choice. Paul prefers not to read it-see above Do we all have a right to our own actions? Yes........ Pete, keep sharing. Paul, keep ignoring. And I will keep silent. BUT ONE THING- We ALL have a responsibility to treat each other with respect, regardless of how we feel about what is posted. Pete and Vig, you are both respected members of this community, and I soo don't wish to see you at loggerheads...... SOO>.......... How bout them Dodgers? have they left California yet? Who IS their quarterback these days? *feeble attempt at highjack and levity... Cathi :D |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by karma on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 6:39pm
I have read everyone of Batch's comments and honestly tried to do so with the intention of becoming informed. The second part of the original post is really quite good, slanted but good. Unfortunately the first part is way out of the stadium.
How can anyone expect a "discussion" when the POTUS is referred to as a marxist and a weasel and every second or third senetence is a direct insult to the man and the office. This is not the seed for discussion this is in your face your wrong and I'm right commentary. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by KJ on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 6:46pm
That doesn't even qualify as a spat, let alone loggerheads. Jeez, louise! On a political thread, we are supposed to play nice and not disagree? NOPE!
By the way....Pete, love your recipes, but disagree with your politics...I too think you are full of it. :) :-* KJ |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Kevin_M on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 7:04pm Quote:
Quote:
an ever expanding wildfield of indifference is... a mystery? |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by deltadarlin on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 7:21pm Cathi_Pierce wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 6:06pm:
Now Cathi, you oughta know that the Dodgers don't have a quarterback! Who is their point guard? They thought about moving to Louisiana, but everytime the pitcher threw a ball, the damned mosquitos thought it was a bug and carried it off. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Lobster on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 7:21pm |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 7:46pm karma wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 6:39pm:
Nothing new, FDR was beaten to a pulp in most of the daily papers every day. The CEOs, etc. of the corporations that produced our weapons and other war materiel, were so steamed that they never used his name. The least inflamatory name they used was: "That man in the White House." One of them left the country for the west indies to get away from all the "socialist New Dealers"........... that in effect, saved capitalism from itself. Nothing is new. Charlie |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Skyhawk5 on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 3:55am Quote:
Smile and enjoy, it won't hurt.. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by BarbaraD on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 7:49am
Well, I for one, enjoy the political reprotree (I know I misspelled that one). It's interesting to see how people "really" feel. I think a lot of it is bunk, but that's just my opinion.
Me, I write Congress (and the President and VP) about once a week where I think it might do a little good (at least they answer me most of the time). In fact just this week the Pres announced that he was appointing some nice folks to go thru the tax code and rewrite it.... gee I suggested that back right after he was elected - ya think he was listening???? He didn't go by my suggestions as to how it should be done, but.... it's a start. :) But our government is in the only one we've got right now, so instead of putting it down, I think we should jump in and offer suggestions to our elected officials and try to HELP it out all we can. After all WE elected those dolts in DC (and our states) so it's up to US to see that they do the job we sent them up there to do. And if those Dodgers move to Louisiana they're gonna have to retrain their Guards - that mud will really confuse them.... ::) Hugs BD |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 8:16am karma wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 6:39pm:
I believe Batch has never referred to him as a "Marxist," but as a "Marxist trained community organizer." Let's be fair - there's a pretty big difference. It would be like saying I'm a liberal because I have a liberal arts degree. Now, the "weasel" part - you're on your own with that one. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Lefty on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 8:26am Cathi_Pierce wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 6:06pm:
Sorry Cathi I'm off no use to ya...! What' a dodger is that like a jammy dodger...Mmmm Jammy dodgers.. :D Lefty...! |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 1:36pm
Gotta like what Jay Leno said about the torture memos. It may be a problem now but then any memo on George Bush's desk was "torture" for him.
Charlie |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Bob P on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 1:52pm Quote:
Figures. First it's no problem then it's hang the crumbs. We'd be better off with a bunch of Miss California's running DC. At least she speaks her mind and stands by it. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by monty on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 2:31pm Bob P wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 1:52pm:
We've heard that song before - and it usually isn't true. We were told that Congress was thoroughly briefed about wiretapping ... but the former administration left out the details about the widespread warantless surveillance of US citizens. And then tried to pin the blame on those they kept in the dark. Ooops, fail. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Kevin_M on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 3:13pm Brew wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 8:16am:
Feb. 10th Quote:
did so call him an idiot. ;) Quote:
Quote:
Artful? Well, I don't seem to be a dodger fan. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 3:25pm Kevin_M wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 3:13pm:
Quote:
Artful? Well, I don't seem to be a dodger fan. [/quote] Okay, Kevin, so you went all the way back to Feb. 10 to find an example of where I was wrong. Mea culpa. But just wow. Batch certainly didn't refer to the TOTUS as a Marxist in this post. That aside, I'm failing to see your point? |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Kevin_M on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 3:47pm Quote:
Different beliefs. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 3:54pm Kevin_M wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 3:47pm:
Alrighty then. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:05pm
I'm not naive enough to believe that we haven't tortured people or will continue to do so. Every society has done it. BUT: The idea that it should be anywhere near legal or even codified in any form is disgusting and would put us on a par with our so-called enemies.
It's like profiling. It's done all the time. We all do it but it's not legal nor should it be codified. The same goes for the kind of wire-tapping done by the Bush crowd. It's old but at least we pretend not to do it. The idiocy of trying to make this stuff common or legal is stunning. Charlie |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:09pm
When it keeps people safe and alive, like it did with the foiled plot to hit Los Angeles, I have no problem whatsoever with it. And when you compare CIA methods with cutting off a living man's head on video, I have even less problem with it.
To even think about prosecuting the lawyers advising the CIA is a very dangerous precedent, and is in my humble opinion, ethical quicksand. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by monty on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:14pm Brew wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:09pm:
You are right - if we started to hold lawyers accountable for providing bad advice to their clients, there's no telling where it would end ... we might lose another sector of the economy. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:29pm |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by karma on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:35pm
Brew, You mentioned lawyers and ethics in the same sentence. That takes talent.
I gotta agree with the first paragraph though. The fight against terrorism requires different rules. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:43pm karma wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 4:35pm:
Cool. Some common ground. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Bob P on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 7:28pm Quote:
I agree. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by karma on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 8:51pm
Ollie North and Iran Contra spring to mind.
Burying past indescresions is not always the best policy. Folks with power sometimes need to be reminded that we are or at least try to be a country based on good moral principles. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by stevegeebe on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 11:33pm
I fully realize the broader issues associated with this debate. Just where is the line drawn and to what degree are we willing to accept the possible necessity of these actions considering what these people have done to us?
Outside of all of the secondary blathering about how we as a people should not act in this manner or that we have breached treaties we've endorse and now may look like hypocrites, I sense something else. What is the real reason for the outrage? It seems to me that it is manifested in a palatable hatred for the former President, his staff and a real disdain for some on the other side of the aisle. How noble. If this is the case, and I truly believe it to be so, I wish the people who are flaming this would just come out and say so. And don't try to tell me otherwise. Do they really think I am that stupid? Once again, a crystal clear example of how we are being controlled and divided by these rouges. Pure politics...and little to do with noble constructs. And when another attack happens, and it will because these people are patient and relentless, we will momentarily come together and then directly proceed to bickering about what went wrong and who is to blame. In the mean time we will be burying our dead, should we be able to find the pieces, and building memorials while the terrorists plot another attack on a divided enemy. This is a war and war is an unpleasant affair. And being nice to someone that would cut your high minded head completely off while yelling praise Allah is paramount to surrender. My,... aren't we so civilized. Steve G |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by zwibbs-Scott on Apr 24th, 2009 at 7:14am
I'm mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore !!! Obama promised change and better times ahead. Well---The Mets still suck and the only team they beat were the Brewers, but everyone is beating the Brewers--except the Phillies. "Yes We Can" --unfortunately We Can't right now.
|
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 24th, 2009 at 9:12am
Seeing the Indians beat the Yankees 22 - 4...I think, during the first week at the new gazillion dollar stadium warmed my heart though.
Charlie |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 24th, 2009 at 9:20am Charlie wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 9:12am:
The end days are truly here. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by stevegeebe on Apr 24th, 2009 at 2:32pm
Perhaps Monty. I have come to a point in my life where I seek simplicity. It shows up in the buildings that I design and way I analyze everything I observe. There is an elegance in simplicity.
Still, I get the feeling that it is less about deeds and more about the those who ordered this and making certain that an political opportunity is not lost on this unfortunate sequence of events. That is the point I was trying to make. Just a simple observation. Let me know if you see this as well. Steve G (I) |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by monty on Apr 24th, 2009 at 3:57pm
Nothing can be done in the political arena that will not gather automatic support from some (and automatic opposition from others) simply for partisan reasons. But I don't think that gives a blank check to who ever is in office.
Nixon was highly polarizing and lots of people were happy to see him fall ... but that wasn't the deciding factor - when certain evidence was brought forward, even many Republicans told him his time was up ... leave on your own, or be forced out with even stronger consequences than losing the presidency. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by stevegeebe on Apr 24th, 2009 at 7:51pm
Fair enough Monty.
There is a lot that smells here. And sadly it's going to be a grand spectacle to watch it play out. I think when it's all over both sides are going to get some of the stink. How do they get anything done up there? Oh!...that's right...they don't. Steve G |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Skyhawk5 on Apr 25th, 2009 at 2:52am
What is Barak H. Obama trying to accomplish by telling the world these things?? Political whitewash? Show he's doing something?
The people in the pictures were punished and NO President, in those circumstances could have prevented those acts. Hindsight is 20/20. We do learn from the past, but most important are the present and future. Our Government must always be questioned and forced to remain servants of the people. All the people. In my opinion, telling our enemies and alies, during war time, things that could be delt with quietly, is just short of treason. The cost for politcal points is off base at best. Don |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 28th, 2009 at 12:39pm
Obama needs to flip again. Time to pretend that the last bunch was only stupid. Leave it alone. Sad, but I think I'm right. It would make an awful mess and I for one, don't need months of Watergate-like grilling by the Senate.
Charlie |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 28th, 2009 at 12:47pm Charlie wrote on Apr 28th, 2009 at 12:39pm:
Nuthin' sad about that. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by catlind on Apr 29th, 2009 at 8:40am monty wrote on Apr 24th, 2009 at 9:52am:
Monty - there is a code of conduct, under the UCMJ - every soldier, sailor, airmen and marine KNOWS without question what is an unlawful order and has the means to act against unlawful orders. Just because the order came down, does not excuse the soldier who carried it out. Many of the 'career' military that I know, that take VERY seriously the oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, have a set of principles. One certain major was brave enough to even speak it when asked if the president gave a command in direct violation of the UCMJ to discard/destroy the constitution - his response was "I'd shoot the president". That was said, I might add, before 9/11 and under Bush. Political powers have no real meaning to the men and women who truly value their oath. Commanders in chief come and go. The constitution remains. Cat |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by BarbaraD on Apr 29th, 2009 at 10:59am
My 2 cents on this....
We, the American people ASKED for accountability and now that we're getting it, we don't want to face that it REALLY happened so we're wanting to hide our heads in the sand once again and make excuses... we tend to do that. Some of the FACTS coming out now are showing that the INFO we received came out BEFORE the torture BEGAN and that we really received NO info after it began (check the facts), so did it really help? Who's to be held accountable - time will tell. Should we prosecute? Who knows? Did it keep us safer - I don't think so, but I'm old what do I know? Are we more vunerable to attack today than we were back in Nov - I don't think so. I think we've gained some respect around the world since then. I think it's a sad state of affairs when an ex-president or ex-vice-president can't leave the US without fear of being arrested for war crimes in a foreign country. But we don't want to think about that either do we? Most of us just want things the way they were back before 9-11 when our world was safe and secure. Hugs BD :-* |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Shawn on Apr 29th, 2009 at 11:25am
Barbara,
I guess time will be the judge on whether or not the Obama administration has made us safer or not. I'm having flashbacks of the Carter years, and I don't feel safer, but let's wait and see how the next few years play out. My guess is our enemies are growing more confident every day, but I hope I'm wrong. It's never happened before, but I do hope I'm wrong. :P -Shawn |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 29th, 2009 at 12:21pm
History is an accumulation of error.
Charlie |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by BarbaraD on Apr 29th, 2009 at 12:38pm
You know what really ticks me off - our education system... back in the OLD days we had history class drummed into our heads - reasoning - so we wouldn't keep making the same damn mistakes over and over - maybe LEARN something from it.
Today - kids barely get a "touch" of history and then it's open to question (ie, the holocost - did it REALLY happen?, etc). They don't even teach Texas History in Texas schools any more. I think this is outrageous... I had to suffer thru it - what makes kids today special!!! Seriously, what kind of roots are they going to grow up with if they don't know where they came from and what it took to get here? And Shawn, I hope you're wrong too... but only time will tell. This time I hope the glass is half full... Hugs BD :-* |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Charlie on Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:04am
I took college night courses in European and a smattering of world history. Try to find that in public school. Way back when, in my town, we had 1/2 school year in New York State history alone. We had a dedicated teacher.
Yer right Barb. Charlie |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by monty on Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:33am BarbaraD wrote on Apr 29th, 2009 at 12:38pm:
I think you are romanticizing the good ole days ... I was cleaning up some stacks once and came across my mother's history book, dated pre WWII. It lamented the murder of the brave Colonel Custer at the hands of blood thirsty savages. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Kilroy 2.0 on Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:39am
History is written by the winners.
So you never get the full story even if you study all the history books in the world. So I am not sure that anyone truly will learn from the study of history. What kids in America study will not be the same history as say the kid of Germany will study, and when this war comes to an end (ya right) The children in the middle east will learn a different version then our kids. :D Gena |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Redd on Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:45am Kilroy 2.0 wrote on Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:39am:
Agreed 100% Gena. "History is written by those who've hung heros." Quote from Braveheart. |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:59am
What, then, would be the point of studying history if there's nothing to learn from it?
|
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Kilroy 2.0 on Apr 30th, 2009 at 12:28pm Brew wrote on Apr 30th, 2009 at 11:59am:
I sorry, I thought I was clear. There is a lot to be learned from history if you can find an accurate version of both sides of any conflict. I was writing in reference to earlier comment about schools and history books. There you will only be taught about the tale that is acceptable at the time to both the Government and Teachers. If I was clear and you were just giving me a hard time :P Gena |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Brew on Apr 30th, 2009 at 1:04pm
I don't know if you were unclear or if my antennae were retracted. Either way, you've made yourself clearer and I believe I understand.
Also, the study of conflict and resolution (and the resulting recollection) is only a small part of the study of history. Having studied European intellectual history as a large part of my college career, my hackles get a little raised when I hear someone say that they're not sure if someone will truly learn from the study of history. I think we're on the same page. ;) |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by BarbaraD on Apr 30th, 2009 at 2:50pm
Monty,
I'm really not romanacising the good old days. I remember back about 1960, I had to write a paper on the Korean War. There just wasn't that much info on it (too recent), but it made me curious to find out more and as I got older (and didn't have to), I found more and more info on it and actually "learned" something about it. Years and years later I found myself in Korea and it was really neat that I actually knew a little about the country. The same with Europe. When I was in school, I had no idea I'd spend a good part of my life traveling to foreign countries, but I did. thanks to the history lessons I was "exposed" to, I actually knew a little about those countries and enjoyed them a whole lot more than I would have had I not had a clue. There were places my husband and I saw that we'd never have thought about visiting had we not "heard" about them from history books - some were not exactly on the "tourist" path, but they were well worth visiting. Guess I'm just a history buff, but I've got an OLD set of encyclopedias that were published in 1948 that I still love to go thru and see just how much the world has changed (ok come on - I have a "current set" but the old one is "fun"). The bad part about getting "older" is that you can remember most of history "first hand".... (shut up Chuck!) :) Hugs BD :-* |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by Kevin_M on Apr 30th, 2009 at 3:01pm
At my previous job we hired a young lady from Estonia. I loved her broken accent and was curious about life there.
Her parents and her were unaware from school book teaching there was a Western Front in WWII. Wasn't it all about Russia saving the world? |
Title: Re: Why You Should Care Post by BarbaraD on Apr 30th, 2009 at 4:38pm
Know what you mean Kevin - I met a guy from Syria in the airport in Frankfort and we were talking (politics of all things) and he commented on our US President (Reagan) and said how "violent" he was. I was totally shocked, then he went on to say, he'd seen all his movies. And this was a well "educated" guy. I almost spit my drink all over him laughing, but he was serious as can be.
My mother gave him one of her business cards and for years afterwards she received a card from him around Christmas every year. He really was a nice guy. So I guess it's all in what you're taught or see or hear... Hugs BD :-* |
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