So here it is..

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In 2006 they had 52 self-report on the effectiveness of psilocybin. About half of them said it completely terminated their annual cycle. The doctors involved in that study said further research may be warranted. Now obviously self-reported studies with no control group and no random sampling are obviously not the best source for good data but it makes me a little curious to say the least. Was anymore research ever done? Has anyone here ever tried it? Does anyone want to try it? Does anybody have any for sale? (probably shouldn't answer that last one)

Shrooms are mostly illegal in most United States (I guess) and in most countries belonging to European Union, though the seeds that contain LSA are still legal and can be purchased in most online smartshops.

You just need to google it.

I'd guess most all of the 52 are or have been participants of this message board.

Visit Clusterbusters.com for more info.

Thank you for the links. I have been looking around and have found more information on how, from where and when to use psilocybin for cluster headache treatment. However, I am mainly curious as to why to use it. The small study that was done showed that some people said they had good experience with it. This of course doesn't really conclusively state anything other than that a few people say it's really effective. I'm looking for studies, preferably more  thorough and tightly monitored than the single Harvard study.

    I am considering trying this in non-psychedelic dosage. There is a little bit of a paradox though as I'm an alcoholic and have abused many drugs in the past. I've experience with hallucinogenics and mushrooms in particular and never sought to abuse them but still there is a bit of overall apprehension in any case. This may sound too risky to some but I've taken and most of us all take opiate, alcoholic and hallucinogenic based prescription drugs at some points in our lives in small enough dosages. I view this as a similar situation. Looking at how potentially effective it can be and how completely devastating cluster headaches are.. if it's effective or even has a 25% shot of aborting a cycle the risk is well worth it in my opinion.

       In any case. I'm looking for some first hand experiences or some real thorough documentation of this to get a better perspective on this if at all possible. For myself.. and for others who may benefit from this. Thanks.

I am one who has had tremendous if not miraculous results with clusterbusters.
RC seeds are my weapon of choice. Very similar to Psilocybin.

For any understanding of how and why these drugs work for CH one must understand the areas in the mind and body they work on.

Concrete studies with CH are few and far between, but a lot of work has been done through sufferers like you and I. The survey you mention above is one.
LSA bearing seeds, Psylocybin, LSD are all tryptophans and research in this area reveals a lot. The effects on serotonin are what appears to be the action we need. Understanding what little we know can help in the decision process for a curious mind.

Psylocibyn has been used to break addictions from alcohol and other drugs and is itself non addictive.

The success of the clusterbuster treatments on CH appear to be around 80% (correct me if I'm wrong Bob W)

Heres a little reading to get started with.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE    This link covers a lot of area but you can begin to understand the 5Ht receptors and the role in CH.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE    A good review of headaches and the chemical makeups.
"advances in functional brain imaging clearly suggest that vascular changes are not the primary cause for head pain in  cluster headache, experimental and clinical data suggest an activation of the trigeminal innervation of the cranial circulation with involvement of vasoactive neuropeptides such as CGRP"

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START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE The largest assemblage of knowledge in regards to CH.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE   and another pile of links.

Maps.org  has information and studies regarding psilocybin, cluster headaches, and the ceasing of drug and alcohol addictions.

I think most who use these methods take sub halucinogenic doses and feel very little effect other than the cessation of CH.

       Thank you MJ.
        That is a lot of data and not easy reading for me but i can manage some of it. The nature.com link was not working for me and maybe that's what will fill some gaps but I'm still a little confused. From what I've read here it sounds like neural innervation triggering vasodilation in the hypothalamic gray is what produces the pain. I couldn't find information as to the link to 5-Ht receptors but I presume that the neural innervation on the cerebral vascular system is somehow triggered by 5-ht receptors. Then I would also presume that Psilocybin acting as an agonist on the 5ht receptors disrupts that neural innervation. I am still confused then though how that would abort a cycle as opposed to just a single incidence unless psilocybin has residual effects on the 5-ht receptors.

    Presuming all this to be true then I'm also still curious as to the dosages. At what threshold does the effects of psilocybin disrupt the vasodilation. Is there any bit of information to that end?Again, I'm not neurologist or anything close so hopefully that made some sense. I do find this stuff very fascinating though. Thanks!

Quote:

I'm looking for studies, preferably more  thorough and tightly monitored than the single Harvard study.

To my knowledge there are none.

I am one of the 52.  I am also a recovering alcoholic.  The shrooms didn't work for me.  Nor did they knock me off the wagon.  In fact, I didn't like the experience at all (tremors, chills, anxiety) and choose not to go back there again.

However, I will try RC seeds if my CH ever returns.

However, I am mainly curious as to why to use it.

When traditional treatments fail, it becomes very clear why one would use mushrooms. They work when other treatments fail, thats why.

Hey Bob, I hope you use the seeds correctly. ;)

the bb
(mushroom user) :D

Hmmmm........"Why to use it?"

Let me count thy reasons.
1. EVERY manufactured prophylactic / abortive med I had tried over a lengthy and (in my opinion) lab rat like period of time had SERIOUS side effects. If these side effects were not sudden (tunnel vision while driving, lethargy, rebound headaches) the long term effects (serious liver damage, heart attack) where scary as hell.

2. NOTHING worked for me.....ever. No relief except for pure O2 and that was only some of the time when I was actually near it.

3. Attacks were coming closer together (gap was closing) and the length and intensity were increasing substantially. Oh yeah, did I mention that NOTHING worked!

Since discovering this alternative I have had the following experience of the last 6 years of so (give or take a year).

- Completely aborted an attack mid cycle - Gone / Gone / Gone for good.

- Completely SKIPPED a scheduled attack by prevent method. Never shadowed never happened. I know this to be true as I had NEVER missed a scheduled attack in many many years.

- Got lazy, skipped a prevent and did a half assed prevent when shadows came back. Never got above a kip 6 hit, only got hit sporadically sometimes every other day only once, cycle disappeared with a whimper and never took hold of me or my life.

The real question here is 9if you have tried everything else) would one NOT try this. I am completely drug free, have NO FEAR of the once terrorizing Beast (now just an annoyance) and have complete control of my life NO DOCTORS or BS LAB RAT experiences / side effects / ect ect ect.....

I theorize that some on this board like the community feel of suffering together and some just like the attention / sympathy that this condition can generate. I know (personally) some who are just not ok with the alternative and will forever suffer through the hell of it for reasons that they understandable hold dear to themselves.

One day, the work put in by the pioneers of this method (the folks serious about moving on) will be looked upon as the aspirin is to modern day regular headaches, it only a matter of time.

For those of you who continue to suffer, I do empathize with you but want you to know that you can one day be free again. It is amazing how much more the freedom means once you have lost it to the beast and regained it though nature and not some quacks prescription pad.

OK - Off of my high horse for now....carry on.


8-)

I theorize that some on this board like the community feel of suffering together and some just like the attention / sympathy that this condition can generate. I know (personally) some who are just not ok with the alternative and will forever suffer through the hell of it for reasons that they understandable hold dear to themselves.

Not easily offended......but I suggest you saddle your high horse and ride off into the sunset. Deeply appreciate your psychoanalyzing thousands of us who have spent years on this site....after 2 freaking posts. Thank you so much for this invaluable contribution to our community. It's good to know I'm just an attention seeking loner in need of a place to belong and that's why I "allow myself" to suffer CH.

Joe

"as I'm an alcoholic and have abused many drugs in the past"

reply:"Due to the discussion of LSD as a workable CH treatment and the possible conflicts with my overall recovery program, I asked my sponsor group for advice.
I was surprised to find support for the use of LSD by the recovery group, especially in the older more sober group. It seems Bill W, AA's founder, used LSD to fight depression, with success.
Last night I was given an AA-approved book, "Pass It On", which devotes a whole chapter to Bill W's use of LSD. This is AA's official biography of the organization's founder. The reading is facinating.
It seems he quit public support of LSD in order to maintain AA unity, but he himself never stood against it.
Further, it seems, that his depression was blamed on an incompete spiritual conversion, a situation he sought to remedy with assistance from LSD. Within a year of starting use of LSD, his depression left never to return.
My concern with making this post on CHMB is to drag the topic into the sunlight for those in recovery considering the LSD treatment. I do not want to start a discussion on the difference between organic and psychological depression, nor on the linkage between depression and CH.
I wonder if someone in the NY City area could go to AA's GSO office to investigate what AA has on-file about CH. The number of CH'ers in recovery is too great for them to be ignorant of the condition. I think this is the kind of thing which would require a personal visit."---sorry,I don't remember who said this.


Why to try it?
  I think the why being asked for here is more of why it works.One of the best theorries I've seen for this is from Pinksharkmark (one of the 1st clusterbusters) "Lately I've been doing a lot of research on chemical structures based on the "indole ring" and trying to puzzle out why sumatriptan (Imitrex, Imigran) or ergot compounds (ergotamine, cafergot, sansert) only work temporarily, while hallucinogens such as LSD or psilocybin work for several months to a year.
What is immediately apparent is that both sumatriptan and psilocybin are VERY closely related. Psilocybin is basically phosporated DMT (di-methyl triptamine), while Imitrex is basically sulphonated DMT.
-- anthropological side note --
DMT is a hallucinogenic alkaloid used ritually by many South American tribes. It occurs naturally in the bark and roots of a vine native to the Amazon basin. They brew up a tea of this vine with harmaline (a potent MAO inhibitor) and drink it in order to see mystic visions and receive guidance from the animal spirits, especially the jaguar and the python. The brew is called Ayahuasca. So far I haven't come across any references regarding the use of ayahuasca to treat headaches, but my guess is that it would work quite well.
-- side note finished --
Just as sumatriptan and psilocybin are chemical "kissing cousins", LSD and Sansert (methysergide) are also very closely related. Both are derived from ergotamine.
Given this close chemical link between sumatriptan and psilocybin/psilocin, (and ergot compounds and LSD) it is likely that the two classes of drugs will interact in some way, which is why I advocate abstinence from any of the ergot compounds and triptans before taking LSD or psilocybin.

Despite their closely related chemical structure, there is a major difference between the effect of the ergot compounds and the triptans (sumatriptan, zolmitriptan, naratriptan and all) and the effect of the hallucinogens. The ergots/triptans will keep you painfree only while they are in your bloodstream. The hallucinogens, too, will keep you painfree while they are in your bloodstream. BUT a hallucinogen will also keep you painfree for MONTHS after every last trace of it has vanished from your body. The only logical explanation for this result is that the hallucinogens act as a catalyst for some subtle alteration in brain chemistry that is semi-permanent. In other words, it is not the hallucinogen per se that stops the cycle, but rather the ALTERATION it has made to your synaptic vesicles or your 5HT-2A receptor sites or your hypothalamus or whatever.
Envision a coiled spring in a cylinder with a hinged lid over it. The lid has a latch on it. Bump the latch hard enough and the lid opens, releasing the spring. If you push the spring back down into its cylinder, flip the lid shut and place a heavy ball of ice directly top of it (leaving the latch open), the spring is confined. Once the ice melts, the spring pops out again, since the lid is still unlatched.
But, if you push the spring back into its cylinder, close the lid and reset the latch the spring will be confined until the next time the latch is bumped hard enough to open.
Ergot/triptan is like the ball of ice. It confines the cluster headache (spring) temporarily, but it doesn't correct the basic problem -- the open latch. A hallucinogen, on the other hand, closes the open lid AND resets the latch. The spring (cluster) is confined until the latch gets bumped again.
In normal people, no matter how hard you bump the latch, it won't open. Clusterheads have a faulty latch. In the case of a chronic, the latch will never close on its own. In the case of an episodic, the latch closes on its own for long periods of time, then opens for a while, sort of like a time lock in a bank vault.
The 64 million dollar question is:
If the hallucinogens and the ergot/triptans are so similar in chemical structure, WHY do the former close the latch but the latter simply sit on the lid for a while, leaving the latch open?
The only logical explanation I can come up with is that the same quirk in the structure of a hallucinogen that creates its profound mental impact (in high enough doses) also gives it the ability to "close the latch". In other words, if a hallucinogen weren't "hallucinogenic", it wouldn't work.
The best-known example of trying to "de-hallucinogenize" a hallucinogen is methysergide (Sansert), which was deliberately created by Sandoz hoping it would be as effective against migraines as LSD was known to be, but without any hallucinogenic side effects. Methysergide is basically LSD with the "pizazz" removed. The problem is, this new, crippled LSD not only doesn't let you see visions, it is also significantly less effective at stopping cluster cycles. In essence, Sandoz "threw out the baby with the bathwater".
Given the close similarity between sumatriptan (sulphonated DMT) and psilocybin (phosporated DMT), I wonder if the researchers at Glaxo were trying to do the same thing as their Sandoz colleagues? Were they deliberately trying to create a non-hallucinogenic version of psilocybin? Unfortunately, they achieved the same result: their psilocybin with the "pizazz" removed doesn't stop cluster cycles.
Unlike Q (an ex-chronic clusterhead who has been painfree for months now thanks to LSD), I DON'T think that it is the altered mental state ("hallucinations", if you must) per se that stops the cluster cycle, since so many have reported complete success with doses that just barely yield a noticeable "buzz". These people were FAR from the mental state that LSD and psilocybin are notorious for, yet their "latches" have been closed nonetheless.
No, I believe that it is more of a "catalytic" effect. The hallucinogen TRIGGERS a series of events in the body's own brain chemistry that achieves two separate results: altered perception AND a normalization of the faulty serotonin-regulating mechanism that causes clusters. Once the hallucinogen dissipates, perception returns to normal, and the serotonin-regulating mechanism STAYS normal.
Of course, since we clusterheads are defective, the serotonin-regulating mechanism drifts out of whack again after several months or a year or so, and the process must be repeated.
Damn. I really miss GaryG. I bet he would have some useful input to this theorizing of mine. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Miguel? Ueli? BobP? Is there a neuropharmacologist in the house?
pinky"

Cheese Head -

Please hang around. Not everyone assumes your comments are directed at them. And not everyone assumes you are a newbie. I believe your other post where you mention joining this site in 1999.

And there are a few here, no doubt, who cling to their disease for psychological reasons (no, I don't mean you, Joe) or even claim to have the disease when they do not (it's called Munchausen syndrome). I say this simply because people can be like that.

-tommyD

Hey Guiseppi, sorry about the misunderstanding. This was not directed at anyone in particular but I have met a few who fall into this group.

Yes, I have had only two freekin posts under this name but my experience with the board goes back about ten years. I simply fell out as I chose to end my suffering and moved on. Kinda like a traumatic life experience, it is natural to try to remove ones self after the event has passed.

There was also a level of frustration with watching people continue to poison themselves, a slow death, with all the prescriptions. It is hard to watch your friends killing themselves and I could not continue to watch another heart attack or suicide attempt.

Anyway, I do come back every now and then and thought it was time to once again share my experience of finding a way out with those who have not already decied to just live with the condition.

There is a better way and I still believe it will be the basis for an eventual cure.

Peace - The Cheese   8-)

Accepted. ;)

Joe

May I suggest that if you are new to this site or have been lurking for a while that you do some reading around here.  This topic has been around for a long time.

I, too took part in this Harvard study.  Number #49, thank you very much.

I, too am insulted by the same comment that Guiseppi was.  "sorry about the misunderstanding"   really wasn't an apoology at all.  

I also would like to point you to the very first page of this site that DJ started 11 years ago. from DJ's advice to newcomers:

   
Quote:

Are you looking to sell (or buy) drugs? Looking for a source to buy (or sell) illegal (or otherwise) drugs? Cool. Here's what you do. Move your mouse up to the BACK button of your browser, click on it and go back where you came from. Clusterheads would give anything NOT to have to take meds. We have absolutely no interest in abetting some junkie's self-abuse. (This statement may sound harsh, but believe it or not, we have had people trying to deal drugs on the message board)

When you said this...
Quote:

Does anybody have any for sale?

 red flags went up all over.

There are so very many threads here for you to read regarding this subject.  Please take the time to do so.  You will find a very long one titled will the 75 to 80 % of you stand up"   very enlightening.

Good point Linda, someone looking to buy anything including scripts is a major red flag.

As far as the legalities of the alternative treatment, there are nearby places just outside of the country in which one can treat without breaking any laws which is my method of choice.

About the insult, I have always had a way of coming across in the wrong light by being myself, honest and upfront. I know you have been around for quite some time Linda, you know as well as I do that my statement was fact and not some figment of my imagination.

In hindsight, I have forgotten how sensitive this board can be and could have  made my point without bringing this taboo subject. If you disagree, I respect that although I would have to argue that you are not looking at the big picture in an open minded way.

I will hold back on my opinion (based on personal experience) in the future and only speak in ways that will make everyone feel good about themselves. <----friendly sarcasm  :P

I am beginning to remember why I left in the first place.....

Please do not let my being offended drive you away from the board, I became a moderator specifically to avoid that behaviour.

My objection was not to the shroom therapy. I've been in law enforcement 29 years, so it's not an option for me. I have referred numerous people to the busters site when other treatments failed,.....It was the broad brush with which I felt you painted the majority of us.

Joe

And, of course, just like the other conventional treatments for CH, it doesn't work for everyone.

Alright. Thank you for the replies everyone. First let me state that I was completely joking when I asked if anyone had some for sale, that is why I included the "(you probably shouldn't answer that)" after I said it. I also did try to do some searches on the board before i brought up the question but when I searched psilocybin or mushrooms I got 0 matches.

I was probably looking more for a biological explanation as to why to use psilocybin when I posed the question but the other answers provided good information as well.

I've recently began using oxygen for my cluster headaches and that works... so long as I'm going through tanks and tanks of it for a long time. So between that and Imitrex at this point I don't have to take a full on headache but I do have to be using the crap out of oxygen and imitrex.

So basically provided this information here I have some good ideas as to the biological means that psilocybin provides in influencing cluster headaches. I also feel that there is some degree of success in peoples use of it. Now I guess the only last thing I'm wondering is how to actually go about using it. I know I can get some through people (I'm a musician in my mid-twenties in a very liberal part of town, another reason why I wasn't serious when I asked if anyone had some for sale). Mainly what I'm wondering though is how much I should take. Has there been any evaluation as to the dosages and at what threshold they become effective? Can I just orally ingest an 1/8th of a cap and be fine?

I really really don't want to hallucinate or trip of mushrooms I have a lifetime of bad anxiety and depression and drug addiction behind me. Im not so much worried about getting hooked on mushrooms, actually i'm not worried about that at all. I guess most of my worry is about freaking out, as that's what has happened when I used to try hallucinogens recreationaly as a teen. I'm really just wanting to take as little as possible so I don't have to experience any of the, in this case, side effects of tripping and just abort my cycle.  

You absolutely MUST read EVERYTHING at START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE  

I'm a success story for this alternative method of CH control.

It wasn't a one time treatment deal either.  There is a method to this that you must clearly understand.

I was uninsured and chronic for years before I was even correctly Dx.  I had to make the decision, as the pharma's I was on had severe side effects and it was effecting my job performance.

It took time, and patience and months of diligent charting and scheduling, but....

I've racked up more pain free time in the last 4 years than I'd ever had in the 20+ years prior to going the natural route.

You MUST read everything at cluster busters.  EVERYTHING!!!

Tanks and Tanks of 02?

May I ask you HOW you're using it?  What kind of a regulator and how many LPM?  What kind of a mask?  

I'm a big fan of LSA seeds.  I used to have 3-4 severe cycles per year but now I'm down to one moderate cycle.

excellrec wrote on Jul 21^st, 2009 at 12:39pm:

I really really don't want to hallucinate or trip of mushrooms

All the basic information you need canbe found on the Mushroom FAQ pages on Clusterbusters.com

You don't need recreational doses of mushrooms. As a matter of fact, this is not a "more is better" situation.

If you have specific dosing questions after reading everything on CB.com (including the WARNING page) send me an email and I'll see if I can help you out.

Bobw
weighing your dose is important. Its not an "eyeball" thing.

My main concern with dosage is the variable potency of psilocybin or other indole ring hallucinogenics in the forms we have to get them. When I take Imitrex I know there is near exactly 100mg of Sumatriptan in a 100mg pill. Whereas with psilocybin for example, there is a huge range of the actual amount of psilocybe or psilocybin in a gram of mushrooms.

The 'criticise normal medication' and 'advertise shrooms seeds etc' is geting a bit tiresome...

...and repetitive...

...and comments like this:

'There was also a level of frustration with watching people continue to poison themselves, a slow death, with all the prescriptions. It is hard to watch your friends killing themselves and I could not continue to watch another heart attack or suicide attempt.'

...do not help at all.

We are nor poisoning ourselves, we are not dying any slow deaths and we are not having heart attacks here and there. We are taking medications and for sure we need to be careful of side effects but most of us are getting results (some great some less so). I spent my first cycle without medication, being a zombie for 2 months, not able to do anything. During my second cycle I decided to go to a doctor...2 months down the road and my loss was 1 day that I didn't go to work and a very small number of headaches. So please think twice before you scare people out of using medication...

Also it takes a lot of nerve to criticise medication and then promote illegal substances with no safe method to control their dose. For sure, it is an adult's choice to use them and they might do wonders and be the medication of choice in the future, but demonising existing medication is a 'below the belt' hit.

Sorry if I sound too harsh  :-/

No matter how one sees it its all poison.

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"2: a substance that inhibits the activity of another substance or the course of of a reaction or process <a catalyst poison>"

We all choose our own poisons and Yes some poisons we take do indeed cause heart attacks, increase the hits cause extreme discomforts and ruin and shorten lives.

Nobody is advertising shrooms seeds etc... Nobody here sells them and most importantly no-one is forcing anyone to use them. However as a group seeking answers isnt information what we seek?

Its just another medication that can and does help.

Just as oxygen works well for so many
These particular medications have the ability for a very fortunate many to completely stop and remove CH from their lives for extended periods of time.
None take these medications on a 3 times a day shedule or even every other day. Many take only once, one time, every few years others once a month. Some a little more frequently while ridding themselve of this pain we suffer.

When that happens people want to shout to the world and wonder why everyone doesnt get it.

I dont get oxygen but it certainly seems to help others.

Well I don't want this post too get too far off topic here. No matter which way you look at it there is a deficit of good hard data as to the effectiveness of psilocybin or other indole ring hallucinogens.

What I'd like to hear about is some instances where using indole hallucinogens has not helped cluster headaches. Also, if it has not worked, what you took, how much you took, where you got what you took (not who or how particularly i know some are worried about legalities but I'm curious if people are harvesting themselves, or basically how reliably they can attest to the quality and potency of the drug).

You're right. But there is a deficit of good, hard data on many of the treatments used for cluster headaches.

In additions to the case review you cited,  there we have informal reports from clusterheads posting their experiences here and elsewhere over a period of close to ten years.

Data from Internet reports is hardly scientific, but it was all we had before  Sewell and Halperns' case review, and the results of the Internet reports are not inconsistent with that study.

In a collection  of reports from 378 people, 240 or 63.5% reported significantly positive results, 48 or 12.7 percent reported little or no improvement or some other outcome that made the treatment unacceptable. 90 reports or 23.8 percent are indeterminate, meaning people never got around to reporting how the treatment worked out, they weren't sure if the treatment worked, or it couldn't be determined what happened for whatever reason.

If the indeterminates are dropped from the count, the results are 83.3 percent positive and 16.7 percent negative.

So there are plenty of reports of the indole hallucinogens not working, and I'm sure there are cases where it did not work but there are no reports, just as there are many un-reported cases where it was successful.

I'd like to show you reports of unsuccessful use, but there is neither room here, nor time before I have to go to work. In many cases, people were using steroids or triptans that apparently interfere with indole's effectiveness. In some cases, it's possible the substance had no potency, or the doses were too small or too few, or people didn't tolerate the side effects well, or were worried about legalities and stopped the treatment, or any number of other reasons. In some cases, no matter what was tried, it just didn't seem to work.

As to variations in potency, that is a problem with natural substances, but it can be minimized. One way to judge is by describing the level of psychoactive effects; with seeds, this can be a problem because the psychoactive effects can be slight or imperceptible.

Some of the early reports can be found on START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE - look for "Message Board Archives" toward the bottom of the right-hand menu.
Others can be found by do a search on this site's message board archives.

This was going to be a short answer, but sorry, I guess it didn't turn out that way.

-tommyD