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Daily Chat >> General Posts >> House bill would make health care a right http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1247673089 Message started by KingOfPain on Jul 15th, 2009 at 11:51am |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Melissa on Jul 15th, 2009 at 2:33pm
>:( >:( >:( :-X
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Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Guiseppi on Jul 15th, 2009 at 2:38pm
I'll still sleep well because I've come to realize only my goverment can possibly know what's best for me! ;)
Sleep well comrades, our goverment will take care of everything! Joe |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Bob P on Jul 15th, 2009 at 3:18pm
Once again they are employing the "Chicken Little" strategy.
We have to pass TARP now or the economy will fail. We have to pass Cap and Tax now or the Earth will fail. We have to pass Health Tax now or our way of life will fail. Baaa, Baaa, Baaa, the masses follow the leader. I watched an Obama advisor on the Sunday talk shows. When asked how we would pay for health care he responded that we can't allow ourselves to be bogged down in these same old questions. It has to be passed. |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Kirk on Jul 15th, 2009 at 6:26pm
I could almost agree with you Pete. If you could only see your way to DEAD or alive on the ambulance chasing lawyers point.
[smiley=smokin.gif] |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Kilroy 2.0 on Jul 15th, 2009 at 6:55pm
>:(
So I have lost my job because of the poor economy, we have one income supporting the family. Can't make our mortgage and keep health insurance, the taxes taken out of the pay check have increased so we choose to keep the house because we can't sell it because it is worth less now then when we bought it do to the down turn in the housing market. So my government will fine me 1000 to insure that I loss everything and end up in government housing with government paid for food and medical care. whoo hoo go freedom!!! (edit to add this is a hypothetical situation) Although I am unemployed at this time :D |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Kilroy 2.0 on Jul 15th, 2009 at 7:23pm
For those of you that don't know what is happening it is called:
The Cloward-Piven Strategy The 'Cloward-Piven Strategy'* was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. David Horowitz summarized it as a strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis: ''The ‘Cloward-Piven Strategy’ seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.' |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Marc on Jul 15th, 2009 at 7:45pm
It was pretty obvious to me that all of this was coming 18 months ago - so I:
- Sold my expensive home before the real crunch hit - Moved away from California for a much lower cost of living - Picked a state with a strong economy, lower taxes and no deficit - Bought a new, much lower cost home - Paid off my cars (well sold one and bought a cheaper used one) - Got rid of ALL forms of credit cards except one Visa - zero balance Now I can almost afford to weather the storm(s) - since I lost my job - because I'm not trying to live beyond my means. If I don't have the cash to buy it, it doesn't get bought. Health insurance is my single largest payment, but I can pay now - I couldn't have before. IMHO, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Get ready for very serious inflation during Q1 of next year. All of the pieces of the formula are there. Batten down the hatches. Marc |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Kilroy 2.0 on Jul 15th, 2009 at 7:59pm
Marc I am glad that you are in that position.
We have done much of the same, we have no credit cards, cars are paid off etc. but the fact remains very few Americans are in that position and they are looking for the GOVERNMENT to save them. When the government steps in to save them it will take a lot of Innocent hard working people down with them. |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Marc on Jul 15th, 2009 at 8:25pm
Yep - no doubt about it. That is part of what will drive the upcoming problems.
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Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Charlie on Jul 15th, 2009 at 11:22pm Quote:
Stuff like this isn't going to survive. On the other hand, Congressmen love government health insurance and it does a bangup job not "rationing" or denying anything to them. The Capitol has an on site doctor too that seems happy getting his income from the feds and of course Medicare's administrative costs are about 3% while some insurance companies approach 20%. There will be no rationing like there is now. There is nothing BUT rationing by big insurance companies that hire people to do nothing but arrange to kill people through denying claims by patients....excuse me...."consumers" that are bad for the bottom line. Many us older boomers will finally do the right thing. Someday we may even catch up to the rest of the civilized world. The GOP hates this too because if it gets through, they'll be stuck with it like Social Security. Every time they decide to argue about it after the fact, Democrats can always tell voters that the GOP wants to take away your health care. Scaring the shit out of voters about the horrors of socialized medicine goes back to the early 20th century. We'll live, kids. Charlie |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by monty on Jul 15th, 2009 at 11:49pm Batch wrote on Jul 15th, 2009 at 3:11pm:
Batch ... what does the Ninth Amendment to the US Constitution say? "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Therefore, according to the Constitution, the fact a right is not spelled out in the Constitution does not mean that right does not exist! Your attempts to use the Constitution to 'prove' that a right does not exist is antithetical to the Constitution! Of course, the ninth amendment is quite vague ... it really leaves such unenumerated things up to society, and the notion of 'rights' changes with the times. If we decide to, we can recognize the right of women to vote or own property - I know it wasn't that way back in the day of Washington and Jefferson, I know conservatives are quite opposed to this change (isn't that what conservatives do, try to keep things the way they are?) ... but society can recognize rights that were not recognized in the past. I'm also curious - why didn't you capitalize the part in the preamble about the role of government to PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE?? Regardless of whether one sees health care as a right or not, I certainly think it is in the interest of the general welfare to create a public option, a medicare-like system that is open to all. For the past 50 years, Republicans have done a good job of blocking meaningful health care reform ... if your side fails to do so this year, at least you can say you had a good run. |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Kilroy 2.0 on Jul 16th, 2009 at 1:00am
"the part in the preamble about the role of government to PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE."
If I get find for not having Insurance - I think that is over and above PROMOTION of general welfare! It sucks - right now according to the government I have to much money to get any help from the government, but they will fix that soon enough I guess. :P |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Kirk on Jul 16th, 2009 at 8:34am
The Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid system has 75+ Trillion Dollers (USD) in unsecured debt, and climbing. Now the people responsible for all of this mess. Come to me and say, "The health care system is broken, let us fix it." And I hear people who think they are smart like Monty and Charlie wanting to let them do it. Face it you guys, the clowns in DC are a bunch of fuck ups, and you don't want them running a kool-Aid Stand. Health care may be broken, but I sure as hell don't want THEM trying to fix it. Their track record speaks for itself, everything they touch turns to crap. Government can't do anything for you, unless it does something to you.
[smiley=smokin.gif] |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by monty on Jul 16th, 2009 at 8:55am Kilroy 2.0 wrote on Jul 16th, 2009 at 1:00am:
Well, that requirement that everyone must try to cover themselves with medical insurance (instead of going to a hospital without insurance, getting services, and then not having a way to pay) is one idea - it isn't clear if that will be made law, or if some other program will be passed. As far as I know, Every state requires drivers to have auto insurance or get fined (or jailed). That does promote the general welfare. Quote:
We spend 15% of our national income on health care. Other countries spend half that, cover everyone, and have better health outcomes. There is a potential to make things better. You are right that the politicians could botch it - one way to do that is to try to please everyone (especially the insurance lobbyists). A 'compromise' that tries to do everything (but which does nothing well) is a possibility given our political system and entrenched special interests. |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Lobster on Jul 16th, 2009 at 10:33am
It is impossible to legislate a fair health care system without rewarding the truly undeserving.
Imagine a $500k cancer treatment regimen, with a 40% success rate. Using the following uninsured patients below, who should the federal government cough up OUR $500k in an attempt to save? A - A 5 year old, the 7th child of a family with a combined yearly income of $25,000. B - An 86 year old nursing home patient. C - A 45 year old father of 2 who is uninsured, but enjoys a very high standard of living (late model Mercedes, $1.5m home, $1m vacation home) and has a negative net worth (no money or assets to fund the treatment) D - A 26 year old crack ho, single mother of 1, with 45+ convictions for prostitution, drug possession, drug dealing, theft, assault, etc, household income of $25,000. E - A 26 year old woman, single mother of 1, lives in the projects, household income of $25,000. Assuming the government answer would be 'yes, yes, yes, yes, yes', my choice would be (without stating the reasons): A - no B - no C - no D - no E - yes |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Brew on Jul 16th, 2009 at 10:44am Quote:
The optimism that thrives when it comes to government making things better just astounds me. This is like a guy (the American people) in a bar who spot a gorgeous woman (the promise of Affordable Health Care For All) on the dance floor. The guy just HAS to have her. He gets up the courage and asks her to dance. He holds her close, they exchange conversation. He finds that she smells really bad, has halitosis, and through their conversation, finds out that she is a total nut job. He wanted her sooooo bad when he was sitting at the bar, but up close, once the chance to get lucky was real, not so much. The government WILL fuck this up, just like they fuck everything else up. Betting people bet streaks, and the US government is on a real 80+ year streak. |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Brew on Jul 16th, 2009 at 11:32am
Didn't forget anything. We all know what we have. For a select few, the stinky, goofy-assed babe with bad breath is better than what they have now (their right hand).
Maybe that should be the administration's slogan on health care: A stinky, goofy-assed babe with bad breath in every bed! |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by jon019 on Jul 16th, 2009 at 11:39am Brew wrote on Jul 16th, 2009 at 10:44am:
Geez Brew, you had me all set up for the Crocodile Dundee reference...remember? dive bar, good looking sheila...who it turns out is a hela :o |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Brew on Jul 16th, 2009 at 11:57am jon019 wrote on Jul 16th, 2009 at 11:39am:
Sorry, dude. Never saw it. But it sounds pretty close. |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Brew on Jul 16th, 2009 at 4:43pm
Now we KNOW we should just stop fighting and let the good doctors stick it in:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The influential American Medical Association on Thursday said it supported the healthcare overhaul legislation moving through committees in the Democratic-led House of Representatives and urged its approval. "This legislation includes a broad range of provisions that are key to effective, comprehensive health system reform," AMA executive vice president Michael Maves wrote to the House committee leaders. In particular, he said, the doctors' group backs the insurance market reforms that seek to expand healthcare coverage and the proposed health insurance exchange. In this exchange consumers would choose between private insurers and a public plan. (excerpted) |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Batch on Jul 16th, 2009 at 7:40pm
Brew, Kirk,
Right On, Right On, Right On... As JoHny would say...."Keep on Truckin" Eddie Kendricks would luv it too! And Monty, Sorry, but that dog won't hunt! I am glad you took the bait once again... I was mildly wary I'd made a useless cast with bad bait... Fortunately, you didn't disappoint me... Your beloved social progressive idiots in the politburo have screwed the pooch with obamacare and no amount of Constitutional razzel dazzel is going to make this pant load of messy depends go away... It's hilarious watching the social progressive idiots trying to tie a ribbon on this piece of a dog turd called "affordable health care" and pass it off as "Must Have" legislation to the peoples republic... just like the Porkulus. These idiots are so into themselves and their hopey changey thing, they would suck a hickey on a hemmi if they though they could con the unsuspecting public to lay off their elected Congressional idiots long enough for them to pass this POS. Unfortunately there's not enough Preparation-H to go around... The "affordable health care" POS is little more than a bunco game from the 50s. Sgt. Joe Friday and Officer Gannon on the TV show "Dragnet", would have jumped ugly on these perps. Had they done this back then, Sgt. Friday (Jack Webb) and Officer Gannon (Harry Morgan) would have tossed them in the slammer so fast they would still be mumbling their useless mantras to themselves like the harechrishnas that used to befuddle travelers at LAX, doing their "ching - ch - ch - ching" thing in their saffron robes through the terminal! "Just the facts, ma'am" is something the idiot princess Pelosi cannot deliver... As to the "Vagueness" as inferred by our founding fathers in the Constitution... they were smart enough to assume rational people would eventually screw themselves if given the opportunity to do so... Accordingly, they saw fit to make amendments to the Constitution understandably difficult. What they didn't perceive was a class of people who would call themselves "Americans" yet who would try to destroy the very country that gave them freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... Take care... and if you've not faxed, emailed, or called your Congressional representatives to tell them how you feel about health care reform... BOHICA! V/T, Batch |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Charlie on Jul 16th, 2009 at 7:59pm Quote:
We should have been optimistic about Medicare....especially doctors and the AMA that said it would be the end of civilization. They changed their tune when they discovered what a cash cow it became....money talks LOUD in medicine. The abusers of Medicare and Medicaid have been insurers and a lot of doctors and lately a raft of clinics along corporate hospitals.....Not the patients that use Medicare. Older patients have a history paying their bills and treating it as it was intended. Left up to me and fellow seniors recipients, the thing would be solvent. The "socialists" in the system are the evil drug companies, medical device manufacturers, lots of doctors, and the system busting out-of-whack for profit climate that has no interest in health of our citizens. They are tickled pink with Medicare. They don't call it socialism any more as it's now and endless revenue stream. You never know, it's possible that someone will find a way to make a shitload of cash with goverment option insurance. God knows they will have the time and is what Americans do rather well. It will take something like 5 years to fully get it running thanks to the incredibly huge mess medicine has become without some restraint. That it would raise the cost of medicine is ridiculous. There is strong evidence that when people can afford to see doctors and go to clinics, are able to follow up on therapy, and buy medicine that it will likely be better for the system. It will help stop minor diseases made worse by lack of treatment because of having to interrupt it or cutting dosages or worse because of lack of money today. Small problems will be less likely to develop into life-threatening diseases and budget-busting medical care and all that goes with it. There are some not-to-be-discounted social benefits to decent health care for everybody. Charlie |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by stevegeebe on Jul 16th, 2009 at 9:08pm
What are the chances that the Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches are going to participate in the plan they have for us?
Saints to the Superbowl! Steve G |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Charlie on Jul 16th, 2009 at 9:27pm Quote:
None. The single-payer government insurance they have is second to none. These millionaires have a sweet deal. We're just asking for a bone or two so some poor kids don't die because of the wildly unfair corporate rationing by insurers that would pretty much end with government options. Charlie |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by stevegeebe on Jul 16th, 2009 at 10:44pm
Why is that Charlie...with all the talk about making things equal and such?
I have serious concerns about the debt Charlie. Our country seems destined to financial collapse. This level of borrowing is simply unsustainable. What I witness out of Washington is a sad and laughable skit with delusional greedy puppets playing the part of noble leaders all possessing righteously entitled golden parachutes. We won. Who cares? What's to debate? Steve G |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Skyhawk5 on Jul 17th, 2009 at 12:52am
Steve, I like that, plain and simple truth.
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Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Bob P on Jul 17th, 2009 at 7:17am
I have absolutely no problem with private healt insurance companies. They all have coverage booklets which explain what is covered and to what extent. I've always known what I was getting before I signed on and they have always paid for covered items. They have sometimes gone above and beyond what is covered when my Doc asks them to.
I think the problems arise when people don't read the information, like Congress and the health care bill. |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Melissa on Jul 17th, 2009 at 10:23am |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Charlie on Jul 17th, 2009 at 6:50pm Quote:
They certainly do. Milliman Guidelines have been the gold standard used by insurance company bottom liners to approve or deny coverage. Their goal is to make coverage mean as little as possible. Rather than care for patients, they are interested only in piles of cash at the expense of the entire system. They "downcode" all the time.....doctors have to keep up on what their patients can afford rather than what they need. "Downcoding" is when they shorten hospital time coverage, cut drug allowances or lessen what is covered at all. Doctors have to deal with unrealistic "standards." This buries the medical profession in paperwork. Doctors spend days doing little but begging for waivers for just one day or two so their patients don't die from lack of care. The insurers treat everyone with a given disease alike.....no special cases of different result or possible side-effects. Something unexpected happened? Tough. Lesser childbirth coverage has even been on their wish list. Some have suggested making childbirth an out-patient occurance....less than a day. This horror is one that doctors have so far been been able to prevent. It's worthy of Steven King. Patients are called "consumers," doctors are referred to as "providers." This is huge corporate medicine at its worst. Make a living but don't kill people doing so. Charlie |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Brew on Jul 17th, 2009 at 8:20pm
And you think Obamacare is somehow going to be an improvement? I'm sure you're thinking it can't get any worse. Just wait if this thing passes.
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Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by stevegeebe on Jul 17th, 2009 at 9:53pm
Brew wins the prestigious "Economy of Words Award".
Steve G |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Charlie on Jul 17th, 2009 at 10:18pm |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Batch on Jul 17th, 2009 at 10:39pm White House wants more power to set Medicare rates WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House is asking Congress to give the executive branch more power to limit Medicare's rising costs. A White House letter to top lawmakers on Friday said the move would be "a critical step forward" in controlling health care costs and providing better care. The proposal would allow an independent advisory board to recommend changes in Medicare reimbursement rates for doctors, hospitals and other providers. If the president approved the recommendations, Congress could still vote to reject them altogether. But Congress could not approve some recommendations and reject others. Currently, Medicare reimbursement rates vary from region to region. Key lawmakers often get involved in setting local rates, a practice the Obama administration plan would end. There goes MEDICARE... The big squeeze is only a signature away... Sorry to say... I told you so... If you've not called your Congressmen to tell them what you think about all this... take a brace and BOHICA! V/R, Batch |
Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Bob P on Jul 18th, 2009 at 6:04am
Wednesday, the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee passed the "Quality, Affordable Health Coverage for All Americans" bill, otherwise known as QAHCAA (pronounce it as it looks -- CACA).
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Title: Re: House bill would make health care a right Post by Charlie on Jul 18th, 2009 at 3:19pm
I dunno Bob. I think I have this right: It is a committee vote, so far. The worst part is indeed the as much as 8% tax for non-compliance (even I don't like it the way it is) on larger business. Even with sliding down to 2% on smaller firms it's still significant. It may actually be harder on them.
I'm sure this is on shakey ground in the Senate. This is the only chance at health care in my lifetime. If it doesn't work it amounts to being rolled by the insurance companies again. Charlie |
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