Family health premiums: $13,375 a year
Add in the thousands of deductibles individuals pay and you figure it out.

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In a discussion with other small business owners today we all decided to flip the equation as most employees think health insurance is their rite and have no comprehension of benefit cost to their employers. They certainly dont want to see any government intervention.

Memo to staff:
Starting now we decided we can no longer continue  paying your premiums. We would contribute just 100.00 dollars a month instead to the health care plan of your choice. Dental is gone. Its fair.
The monthly cost averages would only be around 1100 per month after our contribution for small families and individuals. Of course a little better coverage might add a grand or two.

The fact that government is mandating employers to carry the costs and our customers are balking at the increased cost of goods and services we decided that we can no longer afford it.

We hope you will stay with us but if not Oh well.

SORRY and GOOD LUCK!

(Memo not for real but it was a discussion and a preview of things to come.)

...unless something is done to get the actual cost of health care down to realistic levels. This is the true health care crisis, and being addressed by virtually nobody, most of all our illustrious federal government.

Thats exactly right, Brew.
The issue is the astronomical costs...but politicians have smoke-screened the issue into 'which checkbook should we use to pay these astronomical costs'? 

Health-care premiums and medical expenses are the single largest expense for a LOT of American families.  What used to be relatively incidental is now prohibitively expensive. 

I don't know how to fix it.  Hell, I don't even know what the problems are that are beyond my own nose.  But I do know that the real issue of costs and covered services is not being dealth with at all.

Tort reform would go a long way to cutting the costs back.  My Dr is constantly ordering tests that are not totally necessary, but are necessary just in case something would have been missed and she was sued for malpractice.  They cannot afford to use their own discretion, so the costs continue to escalate.

I know that is not the only problem, but at $1400 for a CT scan and $1800 for an MRI/MRA I just burned through $3200 this week and that is not even paying for the radiologist to read them.  Did I need a test?  Yes.  Did I need all three? No, but SHE could not afford not to order them.

Jerry

Quote:

Hell, I don't even know what the problems are that are beyond my own nose.

My problem too $$$.  They keep saying this about reducing the cost of healthcare.  I have yet to see what makes up the current cost of healthcare.  Is it the cost of medicine, proceedures, doctor's fees, insurance company profits?

They aren't talking about reducing the cost of healthcare, they're talking about ruducing the cost to consumers via subsidies.

Here, we now have several "health centers" where doctors get together to make a shitload cash bouncing patients from one to another. I had my colonoscopy at this place. The creep told me that I had to come back in 3 years. Bullshit. 5 years or more is the norm. They of course have all the goodies right on the premise. MRIs, CTs, and lots of tests to waste our time but keep cash flow going and do their part to avoid litigation.

My favorite story is that we had a young neurologist here in one of these things but because he wasn't doing enough business....yes, they said "business," He was urged to leave. He did...all the way out of town.

Now, the defunct Cresent Tool Co. office building is a brand new urology clinic and other unpleasant stuff. It's across the street from the hospital but they make more  using their own Star Trek equipment. More and more the hospital sends people across the street for testing rather than doing it themselves. Something fishy about that in any event as the hospital has some good stuff.

Ever since I can remember, all X-rays have been farmed out to a private doctor group here. These guys are the most hated people in the city. Long after we pay our bills, a surprise bill shows up. The wordinig borders on threatening. There is no such thing as a time payment. The whole bill is due at once or they will send it to a collection agency. Fine. I thank them and the collection agency lets me pay monthly.

Wonderful business: medicine

Charlie

Strewth! I have often wondered what the problem was when you people in the States kept on about health insurance but now I understand; if you got to pay $13G for insurance I would be wanting a four poster bed & the best looking nurses money could buy.

Here in Oz we have the National Health Scheme administered by a Federal Government department “Medicare”; anyone who makes a wage, salary or is on welfare payment have 1.5% deducted from their pay packet to cover this health scheme.

The system works pretty well depending I guess on your own opinion; in the city I can go to a GP for a standard consultation & be charged a fee of $35:00 & not have to fork out any cash myself the Doctor bulk bills Medicare once I sign the form with my Medicare embossed over it.

Here in the country area the thieving pirates calling themselves Doctors charge $100:00 for a standard consultation but Medicare still only pays the $35:00 so I have to pay the $65:00 myself, I guess that’s just the privilege of living in the bush.

I also have private insurance that covers on average 80% of eyes/spectacles, dental, hospital, ambulance & if I need it the cost of being flown to a Regional Centre or City by the Flying Doctor Service is covered.

With the National Health cost 3% for Nina & I of about $2000 & our Private health cost of $2300 we are doing pretty well when compared to you guys in the States.

Here’s a sample that can be used as a comparison:
BOC Australia invoice annual cylinder rental
                                          Units     Months     Monthly rate      Amount
Oxygen Medical C Size (small)      1      12            $7.50              $90:00
Oxygen Medical E Size (large)      1      12            $12.11            $145.35
                                                                                        $235.32
My private health covers the full cost of the annual rental & covers 50% of the refill cost to a maximum of $600:00 per year.

Cheers
Barry

We have Blue Cross/Blue Shield through Jesse's employer (Paper Mill, UAW).  NewPage covers the first $1500 of the year for any medical expenses, then we pay $1200 family deductable and then the insurance pays 80% (sometimes 100% depending on the service, like dental).  We have a flex spending account, so we have the $1200 covered every year.

Depending on the year, sometimes we have more med bills, sometimes not.  With what the President wants to push through, we'd go from paying $173.56 each pay period (every 2 weeks) to $442 every pay period (and that's only for medical from what I gather).  If Jesse's employer decides it'd be cheaper to pay the 8% fine for dropping their health insurance, we are SCREWED.  BUT, I don't know how that'd work since they are union.

The $173.56 we already pay covers medical, dental, vision, basic life insurance, accidental death and dismemberment and supplemental life insurance.

Bullshit argument. IMHO.

Let me say again. WE DO NOT NEED TO CHANGE ANYTHING BUT REGULATIONS OF THE INSURANCE COMPANIES. They have become too strong and too poweful.
Small businssses will fail as unions tweek the arm strings of this president. SEIU?????? What are their worth to America?.

Would you like to make $10.00 an hour and belong to a union??? Who also takes money from, YOU, for their own political cause and spends it on themselves?

Or would you like to make $13-$15 per hour at a business you like, without pressures from someone who has other interestes in your money.....????

Fu_k.... Unions used to help people...not anymore.

JeffB wrote on Sep 18^th, 2009 at 9:39pm:

Bullshit argument. IMHO.

What is the bullshit argument here?


JeffB wrote on Sep 18^th, 2009 at 9:39pm:

Let me say again. WE DO NOT NEED TO CHANGE ANYTHING BUT REGULATIONS OF THE INSURANCE COMPANIES. They have become too strong and too poweful. .

Far too simplistic for so complex a matter.

Barry thanks for that comparison.

I am all for adopting your national health policies.

An interesting point in comparing Australian doctor and nurse wages to the U.S. wages they are very similar with only a small wage advantage to the US. Yet the overall care costs are incredibly different. the quality of care is certainly comparable to a well insured individual here.

Remember the 13,375 is only a median cost. As the larger corporations will have highly negotiated pricing and the smaller employers will be as much as double the costs for insurance.
In many cases coverage for a family runs above 30k per year with deductibles included and then add in a policy cap of say 1 million dollars easily reached in catastrophic illness here. and there is no way for the vast majority of americans to survive financially.
If you use the median costs only and assuming an hourly rate of pay the average persons benefit costs in the USA exceed 6.50 per hour worked over a year.

I just read an article in biz week magazine that insurance costs to employers are expected to rise over the next 10 years at an avg of 166% that means that health ins benefit costs will for employers exceed 29,000 per employee per year as the median.
according to the article.

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Those are a decidedly slanted business viewpoint.

Everything falls in step. No longer remotely cost effective to hire employees in our country, cant afford to make anything, A pack of chewing gum will cost $9.95, A plumber or electrician will cost 410.00 per hour. Unemployment will rise to 50-60%. A mcdonalds cheeseburger fries and a soda will cost 19.00 ( that to cover the costs of management, employees, logistics and operations benefits, Foods may become a black market commodity and the likes of those U.S. foods companies we see failing now will increase exponentially.

Quote:

I just read an article in biz week magazine that insurance costs to employers are expected to rise over the next 10 years at an avg of 166%

Why?  What is driving that cost increase?  That's what needs to be addressed rather than buying eveyone insurance to pay those soaring costs.

After you brought this up, I starting looking for info - can't find any.

Doesn't make sense to offer a solution without knowing where the problem is.

Marc

Bob P wrote on Sep 19^th, 2009 at 7:25pm:

Quote: Why?  What is driving that cost increase?  That's what needs to be addressed rather than buying eveyone insurance to pay those soaring costs.

I dont think there is any mutual certainty as to why costs are increasing so far beyond everything else we buy.
There are many proposed thoughts but all generally pertain to only one small aspect of the bigger picture.

The folowing conference link though ten years old gives some background info. The PDF is long but provides a little insight into 1990-2000. Changes have been made since and only seem to create bigger cost issues.
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Health care may be an area that we need a complete do over.
The fact that virtually all high medical risk people are designated to the sidelines in newly covered care regardless of income. That would include the elderly if not for medicare.
The fact that over 30% of all medical costs go to administrative expenses and an unknown high percentage to profits.
I dont remember where but I had read that something like only 20% of the costs end up with the medical practitioners themselves.
The HMOs of the 90s seemed to have an impact but those were unable to maintain controls in the longrun.

It is a real problem with vast amounts of varied and entrenched interests involved. Not just about the care of our health.

All I know is that something must be done and we may have to start over and make corrections as we go.


Marc
From all that I have read and heard, there doesnt really appear to be an a complete solution to the current system of health care. The economics and trickle effects of the problems appear too vast to correct.
Maybe we should, just trade in the old clunker and get a new one.

JeffB wrote on Sep 18^th, 2009 at 9:39pm:

Small businssses will fail as unions tweek the arm strings of this president. Unions used to help people...not anymore.

my dad is proud retired teamster. when he joined the teamsters back in the early 1970 he bought a brand new mack for $19,000 and had it paid of in 10 months. you could be a teamster and be an independent. you could own a few trucks and be the boss and still be a teamster. teamsters covered all aspects of trucking back then. now they are limited to garbage truck drivers in cities like NYC and maybe 5 ltl carriers. many drivers are getting laid off from roadway a teamster companies and comming to con-way. many of these drivers have over 25 years in with the teamsters and needless to say they are bitter. i had breakfast with an ex roadway driver and his buddy still employed by them. teamsters insurance is getting picky about what they will cover, they are up for another pay cut and they already make less than we do. their leaders have borrowed from their future for years and now their future is just about used up

Brew wrote on Sep 16^th, 2009 at 10:00pm:

...unless something is done to get the actual cost of health care down to realistic levels. This is the true health care crisis, and being addressed by virtually nobody, most of all our illustrious federal government.

thats it right there.

Funny thread.
The insurer argument is a straw-man in support of socialized health care for consumption by the uneducated.

I laugh when people slam the insurers. 
The medical community loathes the insurers for paying out low UCRs, far under what the medical providers typically charge.

The reality is that the big insurers typically have operating margins under 6%, with profit margins under 4%. 

News flash... Health care is expensive.  Someone who makes $10 or $15 an hour simply is not contributing enough to the national economy to cover that expense. 

/no, I am not interested in subsidizing anyone's health care, thank you

Bob P wrote on Sep 19^th, 2009 at 7:25pm:

What is driving that cost increase?

Every week there is a thread on this board by someone who is waiting for results of some $10k test.  Did the doctor feel that test was medically necessary, or was is prescribed to satisfy the legal climate?

You go to the doctor with a belly ache.
The doctor is 99.5% certain you are simply constipated, but on that .5% chance he is wrong he is forced by fear of a malpractice suit to send you through a battery of tests.

The new non-claustrophobic MRI machine they stick you in cost $250million to develop, and run $3million each.  Your insurer paid $5,000 for your 20 minutes on it.

They see a spot, unrelated to the pain. 
No choice but to do a biopsy... another $5,000.

Nothing there... better have a cardiologist do an angiogram on some odd looking blood vessels in that area.  $5,000 more.

Slight complication from that ($5k!)...spend a night in the hospital for observation ($2k).

$25k blown because the doctor is not legally able to tell you to give it a few days to see if you shit. 

Tort reform is the lowest hanging fruit out there.

Lobter,
I tend to agree with much of what you said.  I just went through this with my ENT.  He thought I had polyps in my sinus cavities.  He ordered a CAT scan.  Way back when I had them the first time, I had a simple x-ray done.

*If* lawsuits are not much of a worry, ie tort reforn, why put someone through a bunch of unneccessary tests?

I'll tell you what...

I too think Lobster is right on the ridiculous crap insurers and malpractice insurers put us through, doctors, patients, hospitals, and more.

I get in trouble now and then by refusing tests that I know are redundant. I get away with it a lot because I'm an old curmudgeon. I have a right to it: I had to make an appointment with a new doctor to get a prescription renewal. I kid you not that the soonest I can see him is December 11th. It's good that I'm not sick and just need this goon for drugs.

I guess that I'd have to go to an ER should something untoward happen to my well-being. I never do but here is an example of just how easy it is to find ways to spend money in the system.

Charlie