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Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Cluster Headache Specific >> Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
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Message started by mmm3bbb on Aug 26th, 2010 at 8:42pm

Title: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mmm3bbb on Aug 26th, 2010 at 8:42pm
I was trying to see if I could sleep through a CH by taking something.  I didn't have melatonin (bought some today to try), so I tried 0.5mg of Xanax.  Well, 45 minutes after I took it and before I tried to sleep, I got the most severe CH I've ever had.  Imitrex spray did nothing and 90 minutes later I did another spray and it calmed down in 30 minutes. 

Another scenario: During vigorous exercise (run maybe 7 miles), everything is fine.  However, 10 minutes after I'm done, I start to get a shadow and then a CH.  This happens every single time now.

Any chance that these are related in that when I'm relaxed, that creates an environment where CH can take hold?  Maybe I just need to be stressed out all the time! ;-)

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Karla on Aug 26th, 2010 at 8:51pm
I have taken xanix for anxiety and panic attacks.  It has never triggered a ch in me.  I have also taken klonopin and ativan and valium for anxiety issues.  No problems.  I find stress to be a trigger more for me.  But many are like yourself that find the let down of relaxing to trigger their ch.  Everyone is different.  I hope the melatonin gives you the relief you are seeking. 

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by barry_sword on Aug 26th, 2010 at 8:56pm
I am a very active person with my work and mountain biking and I find that after I get unwound from my day and am relaxing is when the beast visits, more so after I go to sleep.
But each time you try and figure this bugger out, it changes so don't know.... :-/

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Lettucehead on Aug 26th, 2010 at 8:57pm
You'll hear that alot on other places on the board - during active periods of stress, the CH stays quiet.  Let down for a bit and BANG...


Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Art S on Aug 26th, 2010 at 9:01pm
Sorry you got slammed, I hate that for you.

Yep, relaxing does it for me as well.  Guess that's why I'm getting mostly night attacks.  But I think I'd stay away from any other prescription like xanax and the like.  Alcohol is a big no no as well.  There are some that can abort an attack with heavy exercise, doesn't work for me.  Too much physical activity can bring one on for me.

Imitrex Injections work much better than the spray, I never got any relief when I was at KIP8 or above in time to make a difference.  I only use a third and ONLY when the O2 fails or I get caught away from it.  That doesn't happen very often.

Did you get that appt yet?  ;)

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Batch on Aug 26th, 2010 at 9:43pm
M3B3,

I suspect your arterial pH is way too low.  I know this sounds like a lark but try taking some calcium citrate tablets that also contain vitamin D, magnesium and zinc washed down with fresh lemonade or some Baja Bob's margarita mix.  They are high in citric acid and the combination with calcium citrate will act as a buffer to elevate stomach's gastric juice to a higher pH.  That will also elevate your arterial pH and that should lower the frequency and intensity of your cluster headaches.

Try to get an Rx for home oxygen therapy at a minimum flow rate of 15 liters/minute with a non-rebreathing oxygen mask. A flow rate of 25 liters/minute will work even faster.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mmm3bbb on Aug 27th, 2010 at 1:32am
Thanks Batch.  961 posts and a really big font... so I'll listen to you!  Although I'm not sure how consuming so much citric acid results in a higher pH.  But I'll go track this stuff down tomorrow.  In any case, is there anything specific about what I said that leads you to the low pH idea.  Also, I'm likely going to get a blood test for something else next week... is there a way they can measure this at that point?

Working on getting O2, but the good neurologist needs my GP referral and I can't see him until next week.

Art... yeah, I have a couple of injectors but I've always been too freaked out to stab myself.  I think they're way too old now.  spray generally works for me.  I do wonder whether I should do a double spray for the tough ones... at $15 copay for 6 sprays, it's way more affordable than the last cycle I had a few years ago.

I'm giving melatonin a try tonight.

Thanks everyone.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 27th, 2010 at 8:55am
Quick vote for Batch's arterial PH system...got me through a butt kicking high cycle this las go round when even 02 wasn't being effective. Cheap and wotth a shot!

Joe

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Lettucehead on Aug 27th, 2010 at 10:16am

mmm3bbb wrote on Aug 27th, 2010 at 1:32am:
Thanks Batch.  961 posts and a really big font... so I'll listen to you! 


hahahahaha!   ;D

Batch does know his stuff though!
Haven't tried his pH treatment myself although there are several who do think that it helps.

Next go round, I'm planning on trying it until I get the verapamil to kick in.  I mean, it's cheap, quite possibly effective, and with few to no side effects - what's not to love?!

As for testing your pH, you could check your blood CO2 (included in any basic chemistry panel) level although, frankly, I'm not sure that's really a direct correlation.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Linda_Howell on Aug 27th, 2010 at 10:32am

Quote:
Any chance that these are related in that when I'm relaxed, that creates an environment where CH can take hold?


Oh most definetly.  A good friend here has..as his tag line,  "stay stressed.  Never relax.  Ever."

   For sure naps are a No-No.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Bob_Johnson on Aug 27th, 2010 at 10:57am
Lancet. 1999 Sep 18;354(9183):1001-2.
Comment in:
Lancet. 2000 Jan 8;355(9198):147.

A new cluster headache precipitant: increased body heat.

Blau JN, Engel HO.

Exercise, a hot bath, or elevated environmental temperature provoked cluster headaches, within 1 h, in 75 out of 200 patients. This new observation accords with recognised precipitants--alcohol, histamine, and gyceryl trinitrate--perhaps via generalised vasodilatation or hypothalamic activation.

Publication Types:
Letter

PMID: 10501368 [PubMed]
===

Another possible trigger confirmed by several folks here.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Katherinecm on Aug 27th, 2010 at 12:16pm
Relaxing is a trigger for me too.

As is cooling off post exercise.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mmm3bbb on Aug 27th, 2010 at 12:24pm
OK, I've got it.  Tonight I'll open the windows (54F in SF), sit down with my calcium citrate/Baja Bob Margarita mix concoction (no booze of course), and read about the economy.  I'll keep cool, bump up my pH and stay stressed.

Last night I tried melatonin, but unfortunately I got a mild CH in the early evening (taken out easily by spray) so I couldn't tell if it worked.  HOWEVER, I woke up at 5AM with a splitting migraine style (non-CH) headache.  400mg vitamin I(buprofin) didn't do anything but 400mg more and a shower at 7 got rid of it.  When people talk about rebound headaches here, are they talking about another CH or this other type of headache?  I've been getting a few of these during this cycle.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 27th, 2010 at 12:55pm
Linda....LOVE the new pic!!!!

Joe

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mmm3bbb on Aug 29th, 2010 at 8:10pm
A few days of taking calcium citrate and drinking a *lot* of lemonade and I can't say there's been any noticeable effect.  Does it take time to change pH or should it be pretty quick?


Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by kika on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:27pm

mmm3bbb wrote on Aug 27th, 2010 at 12:24pm:
OK, I've got it.  Tonight I'll open the windows (54F in SF), sit down with my calcium citrate/Baja Bob Margarita mix concoction (no booze of course), and read about the economy.  I'll keep cool, bump up my pH and stay stressed.


Hee hee. Good to see it's not affecting your sense of humour.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:26am
MMM you might want to PM Batch with that question...for me it took less then 36 hours to see a noticeable reduction in hits and severity....more specifically the 02 which had stopped being effective...started working again.

Joe

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mmm3bbb on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:17pm
Although it hasn't been long enough to know for sure, the severity over the past couple days have been in the kip 6-7 range vs. the 7-8+ range and imitrex spray has taken them out effectively.  But I've also started taking melatonin, taurine, avoiding dairy, no strenuous exercise... so it's hard to isolate anything.

In any case, I'll follow it... worst case for a placebo effect! ;-)

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Batch on Sep 1st, 2010 at 2:58pm
A lab test for pH done as part of a urinalysis or the more invasive arterial blood gas measurements taken from arterial blood can provide very accurate and high precision measurements of pH.  However, these measurements may not be meaningful to us as cluster headache sufferers as a single datum unless well out of the normal range.  Moreover, a single pH measurement does not take into account the daily fluctuations in arterial pH that occur and it gives no trend information unless repeated on a daily basis at the same time each day.

My motivation for measuring my saliva pH as an analog of arterial pH was to determine if a relationship existed between changes in arterial pH and changes in the trends of my cluster headache patterns, i.e., was my saliva pH trending lower or higher as I went into a high cycle of cluster headaches.

As you'll see in the chart below there was a direct correlation between an elevated saliva pH following oxygen therapy at flow rates that supported hyperventilation.  You can also see that each of my cluster headaches was associated with a lower saliva pH than the daily average for that day.  On Day 14 I had the lowest average daily pH. I was also awaken twice with cluster headaches that night so this was an indication that when my daily average pH trended lower (more acidic), the frequency of my cluster headaches began to increase.

Granted, the trend information is still anecdotal, but it's been consistent enough for me over the last year to start the regimen of calcium citrate tablets washed down with lemonade or margarita mix high in citric acid whenever I start into a high cycle.

In fact, this same regimen reduced the frequency of my attacks even further during a low cycle.  From the first of July through the 25th of August, I had a grand total of 8 cluster headaches.  All were associated with days where I either skipped the regimen or ran out of margarita mix.  I also had 8 pain free airline flights during that time frame and 4 of them were over 5 hours in duration.

The easiest, least inexpensive and most non-invasive way to check arterial pH is to measure the pH of saliva as an analog to arterial pH using pH test strips.  Although it's not the same, the pH of saliva parallels arterial pH with a 10 to 15 minute time lag.

Taking three measurements of saliva pH using test strips at the same time each day (morning before breakfast, noon before lunch, and evening prior to bed time) and averaging them provided much more meaningful indications of arterial pH trends than any single lab test.

I use the pH test trips from pH ion at the following link:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

They measure pH in 0.25 increments and they're easy to read provided you use the same light source.  There are also 90 strips for $15 plus shipping so each pH measurement costs 17 cents.

If you record a week's worth of daily pH measurements taken three times a day when out of cycle if episodic, or during a low cycle if chronic, you'll have a good reference value to measure against when your cluster headache patterns change for the worst.

The green line on following chart represents two weeks of daily average saliva pH measurements.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

The red dots and lines represent pH measurements taken as soon as I woke up with a cluster headache and the blue dots the pH measurement taken 5 minutes after I aborted the cluster headache with oxygen at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  All of these aborts took 4 to 5 minutes or less.

I was in a low cycle at the time with 10 attacks over the two week period.  With the exception of Day 14 when I had two attacks, all the rest of the attacks came at the rate of one a night while sleeping and were easily aborted with high flow rate oxygen therapy.  As you can see the saliva pH is just about back to the daily average or slightly above when measured at least 5 minutes after the abort with oxygen therapy.

I also started using a finger pulse oximeter on Day 7.  My oxygen saturation levels were clearly low when measured as soon as I woke up with an attack, but they were still fully saturated 5 minutes after completing oxygen therapy and the abort.

I've no doubt that my CO2 levels were well above normal when I awoke with a cluster headache.  That would correlate inversely with the lower pH as excess arterial CO2 increases the acid content of arterial blood.

I hope this helps clarify the relationship I detected between a low arterial pH measured with saliva pH and an increase in the frequency and or intensity of my cluster headaches.  This was also my rationale for using the regimen of calcium citrate and lemonade or margarita mix.

There is actually good science behind this regimen if you want to wade through the attached British Journal of Anesthesia article on the results of a clinical trial titled, "An oral sodium citrate-citric acid non-particulate buffer in humans."

In keeping with the standard disclaimer, the above discussion of a low arterial pH and taking calcium citrate to elevate it was provided for information purposes only.  Discuss the use of calcium citrate with your PCP or neurologist as it can interfere with other medications.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


642_Lemon_Juice_and_Arterial_pH.pdf (Attachment deleted)

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mmm3bbb on Sep 1st, 2010 at 9:15pm
I'm game... pH strips ordered.

Having said that, the night before last I just had a tiny (kip 4) CH.  Yesterday after vigorous exercise: nothing.  Last night: nothing.  36 hours without a CH after getting 10/week.

I'm taking my calcium citrate, drinking my lemonade and crossing my fingers.

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Batch on Sep 1st, 2010 at 10:26pm
You're welcome.  It works for me and I'm glad it appears to be working for you.  I'm also of the opinion a daily aerobic exercise routine helps as well.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Joni on Sep 2nd, 2010 at 1:29am
Years ago, they were referred to as the "Vacation Headache."

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mmm3bbb on Sep 2nd, 2010 at 10:06pm
Another day without a CH... I might just add some tequila to all this margarita mix I have to celebrate (for now)!

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by Dharma on Sep 10th, 2010 at 3:36am

Batch wrote on Sep 1st, 2010 at 2:58pm:
A lab test for pH done as part of a urinalysis or the more invasive arterial blood gas measurements taken from arterial blood can provide very accurate and high precision measurements of pH.  However, these measurements may not be meaningful to us as cluster headache sufferers as a single datum unless well out of the normal range.  Moreover, a single pH measurement does not take into account the daily fluctuations in arterial pH that occur and it gives no trend information unless repeated on a daily basis at the same time each day.

My motivation for measuring my saliva pH as an analog of arterial pH was to determine if a relationship existed between changes in arterial pH and changes in the trends of my cluster headache patterns, i.e., was my saliva pH trending lower or higher as I went into a high cycle of cluster headaches.

As you'll see in the chart below there was a direct correlation between an elevated saliva pH following oxygen therapy at flow rates that supported hyperventilation.  You can also see that each of my cluster headaches was associated with a lower saliva pH than the daily average for that day.  On Day 14 I had the lowest average daily pH. I was also awaken twice with cluster headaches that night so this was an indication that when my daily average pH trended lower (more acidic), the frequency of my cluster headaches began to increase.

Granted, the trend information is still anecdotal, but it's been consistent enough for me over the last year to start the regimen of calcium citrate tablets washed down with lemonade or margarita mix high in citric acid whenever I start into a high cycle.

In fact, this same regimen reduced the frequency of my attacks even further during a low cycle.  From the first of July through the 25th of August, I had a grand total of 8 cluster headaches.  All were associated with days where I either skipped the regimen or ran out of margarita mix.  I also had 8 pain free airline flights during that time frame and 4 of them were over 5 hours in duration.

The easiest, least inexpensive and most non-invasive way to check arterial pH is to measure the pH of saliva as an analog to arterial pH using pH test strips.  Although it's not the same, the pH of saliva parallels arterial pH with a 10 to 15 minute time lag.

Taking three measurements of saliva pH using test strips at the same time each day (morning before breakfast, noon before lunch, and evening prior to bed time) and averaging them provided much more meaningful indications of arterial pH trends than any single lab test.

I use the pH test trips from pH ion at the following link:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

They measure pH in 0.25 increments and they're easy to read provided you use the same light source.  There are also 90 strips for $15 plus shipping so each pH measurement costs 17 cents.

If you record a week's worth of daily pH measurements taken three times a day when out of cycle if episodic, or during a low cycle if chronic, you'll have a good reference value to measure against when your cluster headache patterns change for the worst.

The green line on following chart represents two weeks of daily average saliva pH measurements.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

The red dots and lines represent pH measurements taken as soon as I woke up with a cluster headache and the blue dots the pH measurement taken 5 minutes after I aborted the cluster headache with oxygen at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  All of these aborts took 4 to 5 minutes or less.

I was in a low cycle at the time with 10 attacks over the two week period.  With the exception of Day 14 when I had two attacks, all the rest of the attacks came at the rate of one a night while sleeping and were easily aborted with high flow rate oxygen therapy.  As you can see the saliva pH is just about back to the daily average or slightly above when measured at least 5 minutes after the abort with oxygen therapy.

I also started using a finger pulse oximeter on Day 7.  My oxygen saturation levels were clearly low when measured as soon as I woke up with an attack, but they were still fully saturated 5 minutes after completing oxygen therapy and the abort.

I've no doubt that my CO2 levels were well above normal when I awoke with a cluster headache.  That would correlate inversely with the lower pH as excess arterial CO2 increases the acid content of arterial blood.

I hope this helps clarify the relationship I detected between a low arterial pH measured with saliva pH and an increase in the frequency and or intensity of my cluster headaches.  This was also my rationale for using the regimen of calcium citrate and lemonade or margarita mix.

There is actually good science behind this regimen if you want to wade through the attached British Journal of Anesthesia article on the results of a clinical trial titled, "An oral sodium citrate-citric acid non-particulate buffer in humans."

In keeping with the standard disclaimer, the above discussion of a low arterial pH and taking calcium citrate to elevate it was provided for information purposes only.  Discuss the use of calcium citrate with your PCP or neurologist as it can interfere with other medications.

Take care,

V/R, Batch




Holy crap!!! This is without a doubt the most fascinating thing I think I have read!! The fact that you have actually showed a correlation between your decreased PH and CH is amazing. There really should be a research study done on this.

I do know I am going tomorrow morning and buying calcium citrate and lemonade. It certainly can't hurt.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by PlayDoh on Sep 19th, 2010 at 11:31pm

Batch wrote on Sep 1st, 2010 at 2:58pm:
[size=18]
I also started using a finger pulse oximeter on Day 7.  My oxygen saturation levels were clearly low when measured as soon as I woke up with an attack

I've no doubt that my CO2 levels were well above normal when I awoke with a cluster headache. 


May I ask what your O2 levels were, or what "low" is to you?

Also, why do you suspect your CO2 levels were high? Do you suspect Respiratory acidosis as a cause of low PH, and ultimately for CH's?

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

Title: Re: Xanax, relaxing and kip 9
Post by mikstudie on Sep 20th, 2010 at 4:02pm

mmm3bbb wrote on Sep 2nd, 2010 at 10:06pm:
Another day without a CH... I might just add some tequila to all this margarita mix I have to celebrate (for now)!



Two weeks before you drink :) :)  Stay on that Melatonin it stopped all my night hits/1 red bull and two smokes if i feel a hit oh yea and walk around the block.

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