Some of your are gonna hate this thread…some of you are gonna love it. But I think the bottom line is critical to our armory against the Beast. So here goes. But first, I apologize ahead of time to Aquinas, Anselm, Kant, Hegel, Bultmann, Moltmann (and on and on) because they were here first. Let’s start with “me.”

How do I know there is an objective reality called “me.” We all start with something like Descartes’ “cogito ergo sum,” (French: Je pense donc je suis; English: I think, therefore I am; German: Ich denke, also bin ich). Or even the more skeptical “dubito ergo cogito ergo sum,” I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am. Or even some of the more modern “I eat, or I drink, or I play” therefore I am. Still gets you to the same starting line. It is the basic assumption that something proves to me I am objectively present, in mind at least. Pain and pleasure among other sensory data also through experience teach me I have a body, too.

But that’s me. What about you? Again, I validate you through a similar process beginning with a desire to validate you. Buber’s “I-thou,” mind and body and emotion involved relationship causes me to grant you objective reality, too. I am, you are. Cuz I don't want to be alone.

Because you and I are, we can put our minds together and “reason” out problems. We do this by establishing some criteria (call it the scientific method if you want) coupled with a desire to include our findings in a body of objectively demonstrated and personally desired “truth.” My validations of I, you and anything else are only so good as we can test for them and insofar as faith will allow us to accept our previous findings. I don’t get up every morning and run through the “I am, you are, we are, it is….” routine. That’s where faith comes in.

Faith allows me to get up and get going. You too. Otherwise you’d be testing the reality, truth and safety of everything you run across, every time.

The question is: in what do we put our faith? Is it only in those things I can objectively prove right now? If so, none of you really exist objectively because I can’t run any tests to determine if you are really there. You might be some artificial AI for all I know. I choose however to believe (have faith) in your existence, not unreasonably, but based on the reality of how many different kinds of personalities I discover on this site.

What you put your faith in is a matter of personal choice. It could be as simple as, whatever works for you, whatever that is. Even there though, there are some social standards of good for you, not good for you, good for you but not for me, not good for you but good for me, good for you and me but not them….like that. It is the beginning of a moral platform and a system of law.

If I put my faith in arbitrary or insubstantial things, my faith will only be as strong as those things. That inlcudes me. If I put my faith in me and me alone, my faith is shattered when my body or mind fails.

Faith is the precursor of hope. One cannot objectively hope (not the same as wishful thinking) but one can subjectively hope. We can also hope collectively; just as we can reason collectively. Hope causes us to desire more and better (again both defined subjectively and collectively) for ourselves and others.

Without faith and hope, we have no reason to combat anything in our lives. Without reason, we have no hope of finding answers. We need all three. Faith, Hope and Reason.

Personally, I choose to believe in the God of Anselm: by God we mean that which is greater than anything we can imagine. So since I can imagine a weak (or strong) old man on a cloud in the sky, or a spaghetti monster, that isn’t what I mean by God. But, since I can’t imagine or reason out a Trinitarian being who is both uncreated and eternal (I have no reasonable basis from which to project such a thing) but I can experience it (back to Buber’s I-thou) I can accept this as something with which to test my faith and hope. The results are objectified through reason.

Faith, hope and reason. Our three best weapons against CHs. God bless! lance

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If so, none of you really exist objectively because I can’t run any tests to determine if you are really there.

Sure you can.  You jump on a plane out of Logan , fly to Nashville, rent a car, drive to Madisonville and come have lunch with me in person.   ;)  I assure you I exist.   



I know, I know..I'm pullin yer chain a bit.  ;D

wimsey1 wrote on Oct 29^th, 2010 at 10:30am:

Again, I validate you through a similar process beginning with a desire to validate you. Buber’s “I-thou,” mind and body and emotion involved relationship causes me to grant you objective reality, too. I am, you are. Cuz I don't want to be alone.

Sounds reasonable.  Well....here I am, and here you all are, so...now what?   ;)

Solipsism would get mighty boring.  I'd probably run out of things to talk about.  Consequently--if it's all right with you all--I'll act like the rest of you are here, okay? 

(I'll be bummed if it turns out that reality is a Facebook app, and Farmville is the real deal, though.  That'd be a nasty twist in the Matrix.)

It's a pity, but beyond the point extending to the superphysical, I tend to get distracted by the big, shiny world and the critters who live there.   ;) 

All the best, Lance. 

George

      

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Without faith and hope, we have no reason to combat anything in our lives. Without reason, we have no hope of finding answers. We need all three. Faith, Hope and Reason.

There are words similar to the eulogy Oppenheimer gave at Los Alamos on the first Sunday after FDR passed, it was quoted from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita:

" 'Man is a creature whose substance is faith.  What his faith is, he is.'  The faith of Roosevelt is one that is shared by millions of men and women in every country of the world.  For this reason it is possible to maintain the hope, for this reason it is right that we should dedicate ourselves to the the hope, that his good works will not have ended with his death." 





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a Trinitarian being to test my faith and hope. The results are objectified through reason.

Oppy named the first test Trinity.

I've focused in on this bit from your message:

"If I put my faith in arbitrary or insubstantial things, my faith will only be as strong as those things. That includes me. If I put my faith in me and me alone, my faith is shattered when my body or mind fails."

If you extrapolate that to self worth or happiness, therein lies the trap of depression. My opinion.

-Chris

Well said, my friend. 

Jerry

Thank you all for taking the time to read this. Great responses, all ya'll. Just a couple of observations on what you wrote:

Linda, I believe you. But I'd rather fly out of TF Greene than Logan. Less crowded you know. Still, how do I know it's really you as you say you really are? Or maybe...fun stuff, but crazy making. I'll just go with there is this wonderful, beautiful flower child called Linda.

George, not only is solipsism boring, it's borderline psychosis. It's just me and my shadow, and the rest of you are just a bad (or good dream). I'll go along with you...we're in this together.

Kevin, where in the world did you find that quote? Just trolling history's best? Oppenheimer, huh? I could have done worse but now I feel like a plagiarist. Did he name all those other guys I named? Huh? Did he? I didn't think so. The guy knew his stuff, though. So do you. Well played.

Chris, you're absolutely right. Self validation is linked to feelings of self worth. And too often we link self worth with production. I work, therefore I am. This not only leads to depression, but to depression masking antidotes, like drug, sex and rock n' roll. All things in moderation, you know. But like you, I'll find my self esteem from those whom I love and who love me.

Thanks, Jerry. You're a good guy to say so.

God bless, all ya'll! lance

wimsey1 wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 7:03am:

This not only leads to depression, but to depression masking antidotes, like drug, sex and rock n' roll.

But Lance...these are my 3 favorite things in the world!   What if one of my drugs (or in my case medicine) is an anti-depressant...can we call it even?

I'm just kiddin' (ok they're in my top 5 favorite things)..you know I love ya!!  I truly enjoy reading your posts...you are so articulate and eloquent.  Your most recent posts have been a true testament to faith.  One of my favorite "rock n' roll" songs?  Bon Jovi...Keep the Faith!

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where in the world did you find that quote?

Just an old concise reading floating somewhere as I looked at your post.  Further into it, "a Trinitarian being" rang the bell where I'd seen those three words together.




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now I feel like a plagiarist

Nothing like that, the thoughts have long been widely written.  Theologian Paul Tillich was good at explaining this stuff.  More modern, "The Anatomy of Hope" by Dr. Jerome Groopman.







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If I put my faith in me and me alone, my faith is shattered when my body or mind fails.

When a dry run appeared to fail two days before Trinity, Oppy found solace in other Gita words:

"in the depths of shame, the good deeds a man has done before defend him."