Arizona shootings, per CNN.

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Federal judge dead, congresswoman among 12 wounded in shooting
By the CNN Wire Staff
January 8, 2011 9:42 p.m. EST

(CNN) -- A federal judge was killed and a congresswoman gravely wounded Saturday in a shooting outside of a Tucson, Arizona, grocery store, according to police and government officials.

In all, six people died and 12 were wounded in the shooting, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Arizona, according to Rick Kastigar, bureau chief for the Pima County Sheriff's Department.

Chief Judge John Roll of the U.S. District Court for Arizona was among the dead.

Gabe Zimmerman, the director of community outreach in the congresswoman's Tuscon office, died in the attack, Giffords' press secretary C.J. Karamargin said, as did a 9-year-old girl, according to authorities.

The girl is one of four victims whose identity has not yet been released.

An Arizona law enforcement source and a federal law enforcement source identified the suspect as Jared Lee Loughner. Other law enforcement sources put his age at 22. U.S. Capitol Police said the suspect was in custody.

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Law enforcement sources identified Jared Lee Loughner, pictured here in 2005, as the suspect.

Police recovered a 9mm Glock Model 19 handgun, according to senior law enforcement sources. The weapon had a 30-round magazine, a federal law enforcement source briefed on the investigation said.

An Arizona law enforcement source told CNN that Loughner is not talking to investigators and has invoked his right against self-incrimination.

Dr. Peter Rhee of University Medical Center in Tucson, said Giffords, 40, had undergone surgery for a single gunshot to the head that passed through her brain. Giffords was among five patients listed in critical condition, Rhee said.

At least two victims with gunshot wounds were transported to another hospital, Northwest Medical Center, according to spokesman Richard Parker.

Kastigar declined to comment on a possible motive for the attack. Police have set a news conference to discuss developments in the case for 6 p.m. (8 p.m. ET).

The attack occurred after 10 a.m. (noon ET) outside a Safeway grocery store where Giffords was holding a previously scheduled constituent meeting.

Giffords staffer Mark Kimble told CNN affiliate KGUN that the congresswoman did not have any security with her Saturday morning, which was not unusual for her.

"She wants to be as accessible to the people who elected her as possible," Kimble said.

Karamargin said he was not aware of any call for Giffords to heighten her security measures because of recent threats.

Tucson police Chief Roberto Villasenor said his department had secured the homes and offices of some unnamed federal officials as a "precautionary measure."

Edit to add:
Man linked to Arizona shooting called 'very disturbed'
Posted: Saturday, January 8, 2011 8:03 pm

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Damnit. I don't like liberal democrats, I'm opposed to most of their policies.....but how the hell do you go from that, to taking their lives.  :'(     I just do not understand.

Joe

As Democrats go, Gabrielle Giffords is pretty moderate. She is a big supporter of 2nd Amendment Rights, and I believe she is also pro life.

It's not about policies or politics - it's about a deranged individual.

Marc wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:53pm:

It's not about policies or politics - it's about a deranged individual.

Exactly!

And they won't be able to lock him up because he is certifiably nuts.  He'll get a few years in a psych ward and then be declared cured . . .   To bad in a state like AZ there wasn't someone there that was carrying.

But on the other hand - they're trying to get Tim McVey's lawyer to defend him -- maybe he'll get the "flu" shot and we'll be rid of him... (a federal judge might be the loophole to convict him).

But the 9 year old is the one that breaks my heart more than the others. Born on 9-11 and now this... My heart goes out to her parents Big Time.

Things like this just make me sick...

Bill Clinton said it pretty well, I think that it's good to remember that vitriolic ranting falls on the hinged and the unhinged at the same time.

This guy was pretty far around the bend. Today it looks like he put some of his agenda on paper for that matter.

Bashtard

Charlie

OMG, I saw a pic the news put up of him this evening and he looks certifiably psychotic! :o

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if not creepy Mel.


It would seem that there is enough evidence by others to get him off on the insanity charge.



Quote:

To bad in a state like AZ there wasn't someone there that was carrying.

My son who is a cop in Los Angeles says..."shot while trying to escape"   ;)  Too bad it wasn't wasn't done in a timely manner by Tucsan PD.    Not that it will bring back those who were killed but revenge is best served cold and just might be a comfort to the families.  This way I doubt very highly they will EVER get any satisifsaction.

  They will mourn,  while our justice system protects HIS rights... for years I would imagine.

         

Whether this was motivated by political viewpoints or just some psycho fixated on this congresswoman one thing is for certain...political polarization is at an all-time high.

It's rootin' tootin' shootin' yosemite Sarah's crosshairs on this woman's district (do I not like her?  you betcha!), or Nancy Pelosi's stand on immigration protection (of the illegal variety), national spending, and many other issues I disagree with...whether your right or left, blue or red, republican or democrat, politics today, and all the mudslinging ads of the past election, is not what our forefathers had in mind.

Quote:

...political polarization is at an all-time high.

Not really. There are many instances of people being more at loggerheads than what they are currently. In this country's history there was the American Revolution, slavery, the Civil War, The Suffragette Movement, Prohibition, Vietnam, Nixon, Carter, Reagan. And that's just the last 300 years. Societies were MUCH more polarized in previous civilizations than they are now.

You make a good point...maybe it just seems that way to me because my first memory doesn't start until the mid-sixties and politics didn't enter my world until the mid-90's....and that I have to work around this bull$hit everyday. 

Point well taken though.

Callico wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 11:54pm:

And they won't be able to lock him up because he is certifiably nuts.  He'll get a few years in a psych ward and then be declared cured . . .   To bad in a state like AZ there wasn't someone there that was carrying.

There was. He left his gun holstered and tackled freakazoid while he was reloading.

Legal concealed carry isn't about the OK Corral, It's about being safe. He had his hand on his gun but didn't draw because he saw a better opportunity.

Thanks, Grinner.  I hadn't heard that.  It would have saved the rest of us a lot of grief if he had just taken the perp our, but then he would have had to live with himself.  He made the right call.

Jerry

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"sigh"...my point exactly..the finger pointing, rhetoric, political bipartisanship...doesn't matter if you're republican or democrat the mud flies both ways.  Unfortunately it doesn't look like it will end anytime soon.  Worth repeating:  I don't think this is what our forefathers had in mind.

I wise woman here (named Linda  ;)) posted many months ago something I will never forget:  "I will never put forth another opinion on religion or politics..I don't have the skin for it"...me too  :-X  :-X

So, you're saying that I shouldn't point out that I think it's extremely counterproductive and really bad form for a President of the United States to use such rhetoric - words that can incite violence?

I don't think our founding fathers would have a problem with me doing so. I also don't think they had our current occupant's tactics in mind when they envisioned leadership. Of course, it's just my opinion.

Maybe you think I should just keep my opinion to myself...

You do what you want Brew, my last post was not disagreeing with you.  I was merely pointing out that the mud flies both ways.  BOTH sides are guilty of this.  I'm pointing out that no matter what side of the political aisle you or anyone else chooses to sit on, anyone who engages in this type of behavior IS counterproductive (whether it's the President, any political figure, the news media, your average Joe, or some psycho).  The intent of my original post was as a citizen I'm fed up with the in-fighting, mudslinging, and lack of progress to get this country back on it's feet over what appears to be nothing more than a freakin power struggle!!  Again BOTH sides are guilty of this.  That was my intent, nothing more nothing less.    And nowhere did I say you or anyone should else to keep your opinion to yourself...as for myself...I'm out  :-X

You don't need to reply because I can see that it makes you uncomfortable, but I actually believe that it would be anti-American for me NOT to point out what I believe to be a terrible wrong.

If you want to call that mud-slinging, I guess you're entitled. I happen to think that allowing the kind of gross dereliction of duty to which we've been subject to go unchallenged would also be a terrible wrong.

I do not and cannot subscribe to the Rodney King school of Diplomacy - "Can't We All Just Get Along?" I can't. Not when my country is being blindly led down a path to socialism.

Your mileage may vary.

Per current news reports, the beloved so called Reverend Phelps and his band of Westboro Baptist Church members are planning on protesting at all of the funerals in Tucson, including that of the beautiful 9 year old girl.

What absolute disgusting filth these people are!

Sandy

Sad, Sad Sad.  :'(

I just read that the lawmakers in AZ are trying to do something to prevent the Kansas church group that protests at military funerals from comming and protesting there.  I guess they intend to do so.  That is what breaks my heart.  What did the 9 year old girl do and her family to desearve protesting.  Sick.  Just plain sick.

The only reason those hatemongers from Kansas (I won't call them Baptists or Christians because they are neither, no matter what they call themselves) are going to AZ is because that is where the publicity is.  They use the publicity to fuel the fire that they try to stir up.  They also use it trying to get someone to do or say something they can take to court and try to  extort money either through the court or from a settlement.  They are nothing but the white equivalent of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.  Shakedown artists.

Jerry

I couldn't agree with you more Jerry.

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Ok. My turn to add to the rhetoric:

If there is another shooting, it wouldn't exactly bother me if these bottom feeders were in caught in the cross-fire.

By the way Marc, it makes no difference who said what Bill Clinton said. It was very to the point. He's no slouch at this kind of thing. Neither was Ronald Reagan.

Charlie

My opinion of that group is that they should let that kook out of jail, give him a gun and put him in the middle of that group and tell him to have at it!!! Hell, they can't hang him but once and he'd be doing the nation a great favor..

those people need to get a life... That just makes me sick!!

Callico wrote on Jan 11^th, 2011 at 12:46am:

Thanks, Grinner.  I hadn't heard that.  It would have saved the rest of us a lot of grief if he had just taken the perp our, but then he would have had to live with himself.  He made the right call. Jerry

Wow, the guy who tackled him is on tv now. He thought about walking over to see what was going on, but went into Walgreens for smokes first. Said that delay haunts him, could have save the little girl...  Of course we all know about the woulda/coulda/shoulda's.

I pity the guy for the nightmares to come.

Mike

Marc wrote on Jan 10^th, 2011 at 8:09pm:

The shooter was called "Left wing" by a classmate, but I still don't see the tragedy as politically driven.

It seems pretty clear that he was not left wing - his classmate who said that had not had much contact with him for years. As far as his political philosophy, he was influenced by the movie Zeitgeist and was follower of Alex Jones (tinfoil hat wing of the tea party) and David Wynn Miller ('sovereign citizen' tax protest movement, the same general group that Timothy McVeigh hung with, although McVeigh followed others within that movement). Loughner's action to declare a community college 'unconstitutional' and his theories about gold and silver being the only real currency should be a clue that he was not on a liberal wavelength... he was a whacked-out constitutional fundamentalist tied in with the tea partiers.

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Obama's rhetoric, like Palin's bullseyes and 'lock and load' rhetoric can be dismissed as harmless metaphors, not threats - even if both seem unfortunate in hindsight of a tragedy like this. On the other hand, people talking about using guns to deal with lost elections, people talking about watering the tree of liberty with blood, or those who carry signs saying we 'came unarmed (this time)' are different - those move beyond benign metaphors and should open the discussion on where rhetoric ends and threats and incitement begin.

The country has a long history of anarchist mischief. Both Garfield and McKinley died at the hands of pretty bizarre types that like today, think simple is the way to go.

Charlie

Brew wrote on Jan 11^th, 2011 at 11:13am:

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you gotta admit sara palin is a real caddy bitch

-johnny- wrote on Jan 17^th, 2011 at 12:04pm:

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First off, I have not the slightest clue what "caddy" means.

Second off, I know what bitch means. Why would I have to admit that?

Quote:

...he was a whacked-out constitutional fundamentalist tied in with the tea partiers.

Why? Because Wolf Blitzer said so?

You're going to need to substantiate that one, monty. Can't let that one go unchallenged.

So far I've seen zero evidence to support this inflammatory claim.

Brew wrote on Jan 17^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

-johnny- wrote on Jan 17th, 2011 at 12:04pm: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE you gotta admit sara palin is a real caddy bitch First off, I have not the slightest clue what "caddy" means. Second off, I know what bitch means. Why would I have to admit that?

catty (kat′ē)

adjective cattier -·tier, cattiest -·ti·est

   1. of or like a cat
   2. spiteful, mean, malicious, etc.

brew, it would seem that by posting your picture your trying to shift the blame from sara palin who put these people DIRECTLY in the cross-hairs to some random shit that obama said. if you hit a chuck hole on your way to work and spilled hot coffee on your lap im sure rush Limbaugh, and fox news could somehow convince you that this is obamas fault.

granted the tea party has some valid points and many of them i agree with but their leader has the mentality of a high school cheerleader.

putting a particular person in cross hairs on her facebook page or on fox new or where ever the hell she does this at is childish and stupid. at least gimme that.

I'll give you nothing of the sort, Johnny. You're too influenced by what you see and hear in the complicit, leftist mainstream media. You're buying what they're selling.

Monty,

I stand behind what I said: This was not about policies or politics, this is about a deranged individual. Your comments are preaching hatred by trying to pin blame on people you happen to disagree with. That's just plain wrong.

A key point that I don't hear people addressing is personal responsibility. The guy who pulled the trigger is fault. Not a book that he read, or a TV show he watched.

Marc

I agree with Marc... this is about an INDIVIDUAL who was deranged - not about politics... it's PEOPLE making it about politics and trying to justify it...

There is really NO justification for it -- the guy was deranged and that's just how it is.. It's kinda like a dog gettin' rabies -- you don't "look" for the reason - ya just have to put him down and that's the way it is..

We all hear the "same" news and read the "same" things and have "opinions" but we don't go shooting people... this guy was just a whacko... It ain't politics - it was just a crime...

I agree with Marc and BarbaraD (and others) on this, this dude was not quite *right* in the head and the responsibility lies squarely on his head.

If that's the case, then I'm afraid there's a lot of people on my list that I'm gonna have to kill, because the TV told me so.

deltadarlin wrote on Jan 18^th, 2011 at 4:55pm:

I agree with Marc and BarbaraD (and others) on this, this dude was not quite *right* in the head and the responsibility lies squarely on his head. If that's the case, then I'm afraid there's a lot of people on my list that I'm gonna have to kill, because the TV told me so.

I ignore the TV and just do what the little voices in my head tell me to do! ;)

Joe......who is deeply afraid this thread will get uglier, people will quit the board, all because some deranged mental case did a horrible thing. I have never seen anyone succesfully change a liberal or a conservatives mind, no matter how clever their quotes and rhetoric are. Maybe it's time to pray for the victims and their families, and let this thread go away.

Joes 2 cents.

I agree.

The way the congress woman is recovering is amazing. She's off the respirator, no swelling, giving thumbs up, rubbing her husbands shoulders and smiling is nothing short of a miracle.
  That little 9 yr. old who was killed was able to save the sight of 2 other children by giving them her corneas.  YES!   lets please pray for them instead of fighting over things we'll never understand about this deranged individual.

Quote:

Why? Because Wolf Blitzer said so? You're going to need to substantiate that one, monty. Can't let that one go unchallenged.

Wolf who? Loughner was heavily influenced by Alex Jones (tinfoil hat wing of the Tea Party) and Jones' movie "Zeitgeist." He was also tied into the ideology of David Wynn Miller, part of the 'Sovereign Citizen' movement which is undeniably fringe-right.


Quote:

Loughner began fixating on a documentary: "Zeitgeist: The Movie." The movie is a bramble of conspiracy theories involving Sept. 11, the international monetary system, and Christianity. "There are people guiding your life and you don't even know it," the trailer for the movie intones. "He wanted to watch it all the time," Osler said. "It was cool at first. But then it got weird. It was all he wanted to do." Loughner developed a seeming obsession with currency, grammar and literacy rates. They were becoming the objects of his rants and screeds. Those around him didn't understand. Read more: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Quote:

David Wynn Miller (born 1949), also styled David-Wynn: Miller, is a former tool and die welder and current American activist in a tax protest group affiliated with the Sovereign Citizen Movement. ... Reports appearing after the 2011 Tucson shooting noted similarities between the writing of suspected gunman Jared Lee Loughner and Miller's views. Miller stated that he did not know Loughner, agreed with his video postings on government mind control and grammar, but was appalled by his alleged actions... The Los Angeles Times characterized Miller's political views as "far-right." The Anti-Defamation League described Miller in an article on the Redemption movement.

deltadarlin wrote on Jan 18^th, 2011 at 4:55pm:

I agree with Marc and BarbaraD (and others) on this, this dude was not quite *right* in the head and the responsibility lies squarely on his head.

That line in all your threads is logically inconsistent - if the person really is deranged, they cannot control impulses and process thoughts like normal people.

In paranoid schizophrenia (as Loughner probably has), the ideological fixation and the perception of a person as a threat really can make a difference in whether a person will take violent action.  You and I might be able to filter and process hyperbole ("Traitor!! Destroying our Country and Way of Life!!) while the truly deranged are often not in a position to react logically to such flowers of hatred.

Gifford complained about the large groups of tea partiers that were outside of her office daily, hurling invectives at anyone going into the office. When the health care reform bill passed, the windows to her office (along with several other legislators across the country) were smashed. A group claiming to be a faction of the tea party claimed responsibility and called for more direct action across the country.

It's like repeatedly telling a senile aunt that the Russians are going to attack any minute ... if she has a heart attack or throws herself out a window in desperation, is it strictly her fault??

That's the cowardly, irresponsible nature of the tea party - no platform, no agreed upon code of conduct, no membership list, no real leaders ...  it is easy to deny anything when your group is merely a mob.


Quote:

As of Wednesday afternoon, the FBI was investigating whether a severed gas line at the home of Congressman Perriello’s brother was related to a comment posted on a local "tea party" website for activists to “drop by” and “express their thanks” for his healthcare vote and to “remember exactly what it is their constituents are saying and how they are telling them to vote.” The site mistakenly directed activists to Perriello’s brother’s address. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Enough!

Stop with the political crap.  This guy is mentally ill, severely mentally ill.

Yeah, he watches movies and listens to things on the right, he also reads Hitler and likes it.

This is a madman who follows no political movement whatsoever other than what is in his own mind.

The blame lies entirely on him, and before you want to flame me, I do read more than CNN, MSNBS, and even FOX etc.  All of mainstream media slant toward their own viewpoints. 

The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Sandy

Thank you, Monty, for reminding me why I left this board a year ago.  It amazes me that this horrific act of violence has to be politicized in this way.  It's insulting.  Clearly, this was the act of mentally disturbed individuals (and by 'this', I'm talking about the incessant politicization of things that are clearly non-political).

It has been a *wonderful* year, and I'm happy to reconnect with all of you, but I just can't read this type of BS without getting worked up, so I'll fade into the woodwork yet again.  Carry on with your blathering political nonsense if you must.

As a form of therapy, here's a picture I took this weekend.  Politicize this, my friends, if you can.

---

Imperialist pig dog of a butterfly! ;D

and...leaning to the right.

Steve G

and a tree hugger no less.

OK, that made me smile.

Good. ;)

Shawn,  DON'T YOU DARE LEAVE!!!!!!!!!! >:(

As soon as you see political drivel, move along to the next thread.

Shawnn, as you have learned, the folks here are an opinionated and wordy bunch, which can be fun, but can also be mindboggling insensitive at times.

It takes someone like you, to post the picture and dare us to politicize it.  You've gotta admit, you got some really funny responses, so we do have a sense of humor, and when prompted by someone, realize that maybe we need to tone it down a bit.  Thank you.

We really are a good bunch of folks.  Please don't go away.

Sandy