kinda curious to see how you cheeseheads weigh in on this

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Simple. The taxpayers have elected someone who is speaking for them for once.

doesnt seem simple. any truth to what i posted?

What part of it? In the four links you posted, there's a LOT of material.

It's actually quite simple.

The governor has proposed a budget repair bill that takes away the public workers' union to collectively bargain for benefits. We already have civil service laws on the books, since 1905, that provide for fair wages and benefits for state workers.

It also makes into law the notion that public workers should have the right to choose whether or not they want to belong to the union, and takes away the union's right to deduct dues from the workers' paychecks, whether they belong to the union or not. Read this paragraph again and remember it, because I'll come back to this subject below.

It also would require union members to contribute 5% of the cost of their pension contributions, as well as 12% of the cost of their health insurance. Right now they get both virtually free. Bought and paid for by the taxpayers of this state.

The union bosses have the rank and file convinced that the governor is trying to bust their union and has them all jazzed up.

In reality, the proposed law - which has already been passed by the state assembly - says NOTHING about breaking up the union. They would still retain the ability to collectively bargain for wage increases, indexed to the inflation rate.

Which is more than any unionized federal worker enjoys.

This is all about union bosses wanting to be able to continue to extract dues from people who don't necessarily have any desire to belong to their organization.

Additionally, it gives local school districts the power to shop around for health insurance policies for their employees. Right now, fully 85% of all public school teachers in WI are insured by WEA Trust, an insurance company that is a wholly-owned subsidiary of WEAC, the state teachers' union. The average family policy for a member costs the taxpayers of that community $12,000 more than the next highest competitor. Talk about monopolistic tactics.

In other words, it's about money and power, and the inability of the taxpayers of the state of Wisconsin to continue to fund the gravy train. There is ~$150 million shortfall for the remainder of this fiscal year (through May 31) and ~$3.4 billion shortfall for the next two-year budget.

The governor ran on the promise that he would not ask the taxpayers to foot the bill to make up the shortfall. It got him elected. He ran on the premise that state government spends too much and that spending needs to come under control.

Walker was elected by the people on the basis of doing exactly what he is doing because the states constitution calls for a balanced budget.  I think it is wrong for teachers and students to be protesting and kids be out of school for last 2 weeks.  It is like everything is on standby around here.  Downtown is a mess    by the capitaol I have lots of friends who work there.  Major overblown in my opinion.

thank you for writing that out brew. what you wrote makes sense but how does dave koch play into anything going on in wisconsin?

what is going on up there is about to happen here in ohio.

Hey, Brewdude

    Do you think your governor can lend one his testicles to our governor? It's looking like he may be coming up a little short on the "taking care of biz" side.

Mike

M.R. wrote on Feb 26^th, 2011 at 7:56pm:

Hey, Brewdude     Do you think your governor can lend one his testicles to our governor? It's looking like he may be coming up a little short on the "taking care of biz" side. Mike

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if this is real it sounds like hes kochs bitch. here in ohio kasich ran his campaign on the idea that jobs were being lost under ted stickland. if what was discussed in this phone call was real it sounds to me that kasich is getting ready to cut a bunch of jobs.

-johnny- wrote on Feb 26^th, 2011 at 8:31pm:

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It wasn't real, Johnny. It was Ian Murphy POSING as Dave Koch. It was a scam job and completely unethical. He's the same a-hole that wrote an article a couple of years back entitled "F*ck the Troops" at the Buffalo Beast website in which he basically said that you can't be opposed to the war without being opposed to the troops. Walker thought he was talking to Koch, while Murphy tried to goad him into saying something he might regret.

In my opinion, Walker didn't say anything that he hasn't been saying publicly. He didn't take the bait. That's the thing about Scott Walker - WYSIWYG.

M.R. wrote on Feb 26^th, 2011 at 7:56pm:

Hey, Brewdude     Do you think your governor can lend one his testicles to our governor? It's looking like he may be coming up a little short on the "taking care of biz" side. Mike

And people on the left are continually deriding him for not having finished college. I'd trade my degree for one-quarter of his ability to call it like it is and articulate conservative principles while under a great deal of pressure from the complicit media.

And no teleprompter.

Big brass ones, he. Do NOT get into a stare-down with Scott Walker.

There's a new mayor in the city of Toronto.  He ran his whole campaign on "Stop the Gravy Train"!!!!!  He hasn't been in office long enough for anyone to get a good handle on what he's going to be able to do but he sure isn't sitting on his butt doing nothing.  He has, so far, kept his election promises.

I'm getting a headache just reading all this.  :o

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I have NOTHING but respect for Scott Walker.  Sure wish we had him instead of Quinnoccio.

We are in a world of deep doo-doo down here south of the Cheddar Curtain.  I'm seriously considering a move, but at the present time it is impossible.  Hoping to change that soon.

Jerry

It's not hard to understand.

Democrats are more likely to belong to unions. Unions are a big source of money for them. Without strong union influence, Democrats will lose their major source of income. They would have little chance of fighting slippery liars like Walker. It's a wet dream for the GOP.

It has nothing to do with the budget.

Charlie

Charlie wrote on Feb 27^th, 2011 at 12:16am:

It's not hard to understand. Democrats are more likely to belong to unions. Unions are a big source of money for them. Without strong union influence, Democrats will lose their major source of income. They would have little chance of fighting slippery liers like Walker.

Ya had me right up until there.

Charlie, I respectfully disagree. This is not about corralling private enterprise unions, where there is a capitalist sytem in place that prohibits a business from paying its employees too much money, by making any such business non profitable.

This is about a group of people who have bought off a portion of the government. Literally BOUGHT the democrats. Now they enjoy jobs where they cannot be fired,  and have wages and benefits that are far superior to anything in the private sector.  As a result, entire states are facing bankruptcy because they can no longer pay for these ridiculous benefits. They are taking up a huge piece of every county and city's budget, forcing cuts everywhere BUT in the public employees unions.

The pendulum has swung way too far over. A correction is due, and will occur.

joe

A portion od the blogger's article:


Quote:

So, 4000 rubes are dead. Cry me the Tigris. Another 30,000 have been seriously wounded. Boo fucking hoo. They got what they asked for—and cool robotic limbs, too. Likely, just reading the above paragraph made you uncomfortable. But why? The benevolence of America’s “troops” is sacrosanct. Questioning their rectitude simply isn’t done. It’s the forbidden zone. We may rail against this tragic war, but our soldiers are lauded by all as saints. Why? They volunteered to partake in this savage idiocy, and for this they deserve our utmost respect? I think not. The nearly two-thirds of us who know this war is bullshit need to stop sucking off the troops. They get enough action raping female soldiers and sodomizing Iraqi detainees. The political left is intent on “supporting” the troops by bringing them home, which is a good thing. But after rightly denouncing the administration’s lies and condemning this awful war, relatively sensible pundits—like Keith Olbermann—turn around and lovingly praise the soldiers’ brave service to the country. Why?

yeah i understand this was a prank call but what is david koch's relation to wisconsin?

-johnny- wrote on Feb 27^th, 2011 at 11:20am:

yeah i understand this was a prank call but what is david koch's relation to wisconsin?

He contributed $$ to Scott Walker's campaign. The left and the media (but I repeat myself) have suggested that Koch is one of the parties that may be interested in purchasing one or more of the dozens of state-owned power plants that Walker wants to sell off as part of balancing the budget. Koch has denied that he's interested.

Here's the level of intelligence we Wisconsin residents have been dealing with for the last couple of weeks:

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Bob P wrote on Feb 27^th, 2011 at 10:50am:

A portion od the blogger's article: Quote: So, 4000 rubes are dead. Cry me the Tigris. Another 30,000 have been seriously wounded. Boo fucking hoo. They got what they asked for—and cool robotic limbs, too. Likely, just reading the above paragraph made you uncomfortable. But why? The benevolence of America’s “troops” is sacrosanct. Questioning their rectitude simply isn’t done. It’s the forbidden zone. We may rail against this tragic war, but our soldiers are lauded by all as saints. Why? They volunteered to partake in this savage idiocy, and for this they deserve our utmost respect? I think not. The nearly two-thirds of us who know this war is bullshit need to stop sucking off the troops. They get enough action raping female soldiers and sodomizing Iraqi detainees. The political left is intent on “supporting” the troops by bringing them home, which is a good thing. But after rightly denouncing the administration’s lies and condemning this awful war, relatively sensible pundits—like Keith Olbermann—turn around and lovingly praise the soldiers’ brave service to the country. Why?

Bob,

I'm sorry.  See that little blurb under your monkey picture on the left that says "Shut up Bob"?

Please do so.

I want our troops home as well.  I don't think we should be there, but we are.  So I DO support the men and women who are serving in these wars under the direction of their employer - our current government.

Prove your points about rape and sodomy that our soldiers are committing, with links.  How many, when, where. 

Your post was offensive to me.

And I am an INDEPENDENT VOTER before you try to call me a leftist.

SandyC

Sandy - Bob was quoting - QUOTING - the blogger who posed as Dave Koch in the phone call to governor Scott Walker.

His name is Ian Murphy, and he's a hate monger.

Thanks Brew, I was not aware.

To Bob P - please accept my apologies

Sandy

How many people here are confident that the 8 hour day or a minimum wage would exist without unions? Any safety concerns at all, child labor laws or just about any consideratioin for workers? I have no such illusions.

I'm not a big fan of public employees benefits at the scale they exist but even after offering a compromise, they were turned down.

It's about denying all the but the far upper end of financial spectrum a say in anything. It's a blatant attack on the middle class. It may not seem that way yet, but it is.

Power, money on the side.

Charlie

This point cannot be made often enough: The deal that is being offered in this budget repair bill still exceeds what is offered to federal workers, who are not given the ability to collectively bargain for either wages or benefits. Yet the DNC has sent it's thugs to Madison to rouse the rabble about how this is an attack on them.

A Fox News reporter, Mike Tobin, was just physically struck by one of the protesters. And apparently the local police are not cooperating with the Capitol police in setting up the logistics for the arrest and detention of those who are now in violation of the law by staying in the capitol building beyond closing time.

This could get even bloodier before the day is out, and I'm fully expecting a mobilization of the National Guard.

Charlie,
Are you saying that if something happens to unions in Wisconsin, children will go to work and they will do away with minimum wage? 

To me, the bigger issue is this, "what if I don't want to belong to a union, but I still want a job?".  Closed shop doesn't benefit everybody.

Oh well, I better go tell those 12 year olds from the orphanage that are being put to work in the sugar mills for pennies on the dollar that they are being treated unfairly.

Quote:

Are you saying that if something happens to unions in Wisconsin, children will go to work and they will do away with minimum wage?

No.

Other states have no or not much public union structure. They have deficts too. Clobbering the middle class isn't the way to go but then Republicans always go after Sesame St. at budget cutting time.

This debate may be valuable as a calling cry. It has little to do with the budget. It's the result of puffed up tea party approved Republican Governors just squirming with glee at a chance to return to them good ole days.

Nothing new.

Charlie

When you're buying more than you're selling, you're losing.

Here's an interesting tidbit:


Quote:

By Christian Schneider The vitriol from protesting Wisconsin workers towards the Kochs emerged quickly and intensely. Signs ranging between lame and vulgar (often both) dot the public-union marches. But what the protesters don't realize is that they actually have a reason to root for the Koch brothers. According to the State of Wisconsin Investment Board (SWIB), the Wisconsin Retirement System owns $5.5 million in Georgia Pacific corporate bonds. (Georgia Pacific is owned by Koch Industries.) This is the retirement system in which the overwhelming majority of state and local employees participate. These are the pension benefits that public employees are trying so hard to protect. So here's the challenge: Explain to a Wisconsin state worker that they are the ones helping fund the Koch brothers. Then sit back and watch the fun.

I don't know about you guys but this sequence of events is extremely fun to watch. But it has an insidious side at the same time.

The behavior exhibited by those who have their pat existence threatened by the financial realities, exposed now by the cleansing light of truth, is worse than the "accusations" of the media (and others) toward those who questioned their "leaders" a Tea Party events.

This is the part that makes me most worried about the way things are going in our land. The absolute truth seems to be dead.

If the public unions have their way than there is no counterbalance to reasonably negotiate issues with politicians that are bought and paid for.  The unions are paying for and delivering the votes and the ridiculous cycle continues toward insolvency.

I've said it before... The parasite that kills its host is good for neither.

Steve G

At its core, there is something fundamentally wrong when the person sitting on one side of the bargaining table elects (and finances the campaign of) the person sitting on the opposite side.

You gotta love Scott Walker!  He cut off direct deposit for the Senators.  To get paid they have to return to the Senate!   ;D  I absolutely love it!  Now I just with Quinnoccio would grow a pair and do something for the people of IL instead of doing something TO the people of IL.

Jerry

Wall Street Journal/NBC result: 77% (national) favored collective bargaining rights. You'll have your figures of course. Bear in mind that it was just for collective bargaining.

No more for me here. I'm worn out on this topic.

Charlie

Charlie wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Wall Street Journal/NBC result: 77% (national) favored collective bargaining rights.

Did the question specify for public workers?

Why aren't there any protests in Washington by federal workers? They don't have collective bargaining privileges.

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Quote:

Walker said the proposed cuts could be offset by cuts in public-employee health and pension benefits under his proposal to end collective bargaining for most public-employee unions. That plan has roiled the state for weeks. Walker is among several Republican governors facing big budget shortfalls who are trying to weaken the traditional clout of public-worker unions. If his effort succeeds, it could be replicated in other states, curtailing the cost of union benefits and salaries while undercutting the political power of union members, who often support Democratic candidates. "This is a reform budget. It is about getting Wisconsin working again," Walker said, "and to make that happen, we need a balanced budget that works -- and an environment where the private sector can create 250,000 jobs over the next four years."

Union workers of any kind may be wary of what is afoot.  In the past, when foreign auto makers built plants in the U.S. they went South with the lower wages.  In an "environment where the private sector can create 250,000 jobs" might mean less and less at the bargaining table for union members come contract time if this is a precedent for Wisconsin, employing more for less.

Since Walker hasn't given details, which would seem important, for 250,000 jobs in four years, it's a squirmy union situation when simply mentioning cozying the environment for business.






Prior to this WI situation, the L.A. Times reported the creating of a different cozy environment for business:

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February 06, 2011



Quote:

The billionaire brothers David and Charles Koch no longer sit outside Washington's political establishment, isolated by their uncompromising conservatism. Instead, they are now at the center of Republican power, a change most evident in the new makeup of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Wichita-based Koch Industries and its employees formed the largest single oil and gas donor to members of the panel, ahead of giants like Exxon Mobil, contributing $279,500 to 22 of the committee's 31 Republicans, and $32,000 to five Democrats. Nine of the 12 new Republicans on the panel signed a pledge distributed by a Koch-founded advocacy group -- Americans for Prosperity -- to oppose the Obama administration's proposal to regulate greenhouse gases. Of the six GOP freshman lawmakers on the panel, five benefited from the group's separate advertising and grass-roots activity during the 2010 campaign. Claiming an electoral mandate, Republicans on the committee have launched an agenda of the sort long backed by the Koch brothers. A top early goal: restricting the reach of the Environmental Protection Agency, which oversees the Kochs' core energy businesses. Perhaps the Kochs' most surprising and important ally on the committee is its new chairman, Rep. Fred Upton. The Republican from Michigan, who was once criticized by conservatives for his middle-of-the-road approach to environmental issues, is now leading the effort to rein in the EPA. Upton received $20,000 in donations from Koch employees in 2010, making them among his top 10 donors in that cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. In recent months the congressman has made a point of publicly aligning himself with the Koch-backed advocacy group, calling for an end to the "EPA chokehold." Last week the chairman released a draft of a bill that would strip the EPA of its ability to curb carbon emissions. The legislation is in line with the Kochs' long-advocated stance that the federal government should have a minimal role in regulating business. The Kochs' oil refineries and chemical plants stand to pay millions to reduce air pollution under currently proposed EPA regulations. ... The Supreme Court ruled in 2007 that the EPA had the power to regulate greenhouse gases as air pollutants under the Clean Air Act. Pompeo, Griffith and others want to strip the EPA of that authority. Until recently, Upton would have been an unlikely champion of that view. In 2009, he told a Michigan newspaper: "Climate change is a serious problem that necessitates serious solutions." more...

an excerpt from your quote Kevin and a question concerning the same excerpt.

"In 2009, he told a Michigan newspaper: "Climate change is a serious problem that necessitates serious solutions." "


Which climate change is the problem?  The "Global Warming" that was being touted just a few years ago became "Climate Change" due to the cooling trend of the earth for the last 10 years and the record cold and snow over most of the Northern Hemisphere this past winter.  One cannot have it both ways.  Carbon emissions cannot cause "Global Warming" and "Global Cooling" at the same time.  Back in the 60's and 70's and the Ecology movement of that time it was because of the "Coming Ice Age" supposedly caused by the same gases that were touted a few years back for "Global Warming".  The EPA has been a political tool since its inception to rein in industry in the US often on VERY shaky, if not forged, scientific data. 

Obviously I'm not advocating polluting the world, and neither are the vast majority of those in business.  What is needed is a bit of balance, and the EPA has never understood the meaning of the word.

Jerry

Quote:

"Climate Change" due to the cooling trend of the earth for the last 10 years

I think you may have missed the follow up to that info, which never makes the news, or just got carried away with the "news" stories that omitted the exact wording and picked up bites from it. 




Quote:

Back in the 60's and 70's and the Ecology movement of that time it was because of the "Coming Ice Age" supposedly caused by the same gases that were touted a few years back for "Global Warming".

As usual, the "news" picks up the unusual and bizarre, it sells.  Looking at all peer-reviewed journals from 1965 to 1979 concerning climate change they found 44 which predicted global warming, while only 7 predicted global cooling.  Apparently the press just found the cooling thing so much more interesting they latched onto it.  A study was done on this.








Quote:

"Global Warming" and "Global Cooling" at the same time.

One may be a short term interval toward a long term trend, once expressed by the same author in a paper of a particular model in your first quote above.  At his personal appearance lectures doubters came eagerly to hear how the earth was really cooling.  It wasn't to be.



off tangent here a bit

Climate change has little to do with the weather out side as it is perceived.

Charlie

Charlie wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Climate change has little to do with the weather out side as it is perceived. Charlie

M'kay.

Back in line a little, I can see a lot of new jobs created in this millions for upgrades. 


Quote:

The Kochs' oil refineries and chemical plants stand to pay millions to reduce air pollution under currently proposed EPA regulations.

And actually a lot more employed all over Wisconsin working with compliance of Koch facilities.


Quote:

The Koch brothers' financial interests include Koch Pipeline Company, which operates a pipeline system that crosses Wisconsin, part of the nearly 4,000 miles of pipelines owned or operated by the company. It also owns Flint Hill Resources, which distributes refined fuel through pipelines and terminals in Junction City, Waupun, Madison and Milwaukee. Koch Industries also owns the "C. Reiss Coal Company," a power plant supply company located in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan (the company supplies coal to power plants).  Koch's paper and wood products division, Georgia Pacific, has six facilities in Wisconsin.

If Gov Scotty would specify this "environment" he's going to create enabling 250,000 new jobs and not leave people guessing with a wary statement.  Does attempting to void these regulations, not creating these new jobs, mean more work with less pay?  Which way is he leaning?

Another aspect to deal with:


Quote:

But the state has other underfunded commitments, the accumulation of which has put Wisconsin in dire financial straits. The state’s unemployment fund, for example, is not only tapped out, it’s $1.5 billion in the red, because the state wasn’t financially prepared to deal with the tremendous drain on the fund caused by the Great Recession. As a result, Wisconsin has had to borrow money from the federal government to pay out unemployment benefits. The debt continues to grow. Interest is accruing and the first interest payment of $48 million is due this fall.

The only thing that matters is that Scott ran on the campaign promise to do what he is doing and the people of WI elected him to do it.
Nice to see a politician do what he says he'll do during his campaign.

Gov Scotty outlined his six point plan for 250,000 jobs over a year ago.  Number 1 was lower taxes for employers to stimulate jobs.  Whereas the Revenue Dept. projects 190,000 jobs alone will be added without any policy changes, The U of W projects 250,000 alone with a normal recovery. 

Cutting taxes to biz for jobs.  In the last decade, the top five oil companies made 950 billion. Have they touted the jobs they created?  Money not invested in job creation this century.  Maybe the thought is, had only those corporation made an even trillion, things wouldn't have been so bad and we'd be out of this mess.


Point #2 is less regulation.  But keep the oil subsidies.  Void EPA regs. 





Scotty's got his agenda to stick to, I'll keep my feet on the ground, don't beam me up.  We got our own immense problems, good luck.

Cutting this, raising that, blah!

America has seem to lost its innovation. What we need is new corporations making items other countries want and are willing to pay for. Not only that, our government has become inefficient, IMO. And efficiency isn't just monetary, it's also flexible and objective.

This goes for both "sides".

I've been trying to read and understand what is going on in WI, and seems to be spilling over into other states as well.

As I understand,

WI has a huge budget deficit that, by law, they must balance.

WI has a union for PUBLIC employees (those who work for the state/county/city) which has collective bargaining for their wages, benefits (medical/retirement - etc.). 

WI is not in the business of making a profit, like PRIVATE businesses that may also be unionized.  WI uses taxpayer dollars to pay the wages and benefits of the employees who work for this PUBLIC entity.

In order to try to reduce spending to help balance the budget, WI is telling the PUBLIC employee union, that they can no longer collectively bargain for their BENEFITS (collective bargaining is still OK on their wages).  WI is asking PUBLIC employees to cough up more money out of their own pockets for their medical/retirement, etc. BENEFITS (not wages), relieving the taxpayers of some of this financial expense.  This has nothing to do with PRIVATELY UNIONIZED entities.

The democrats have bailed to Illinois to stop the vote on this issue, staying in a hotel, eating out or bringing in food.  Since they won't return to WI, WI is suspending their paychecks - meaning the cost of their "vacation" is coming out of their own wallets - or is it?  Are their costs going on their expense accounts meaning the taxpayers are paying for it?

Those people now staying in Illinois signed an oath when they were elected to office to follow the laws of the state of WI.  They are derelict in their duty to the state because they took their little ball and left the playing field like five year olds.  Why are they not immediately relieved of their duties?

I planned on entering my 2 cents, but it's probably more like a buck's worth of opinion.

Sandy

If the prodigal democrats don't come back to work soon - probably within the next week - the whole issue will shift to recall elections, and Wisconsin will enter a quasi-permanent election cycle.

I think the Senate leadership and Walker have been playing their lowest cards first. They're still holding the trump cards, like a "nuclear option," namely removing the collective bargaining language from the budget repair bill and voting on it as a non-fiscal issue (which doesn't require a 3/5 quorum).

(Edited to subtract the word "the" before Walker cuz I kin rite reel much gud. Duh.)

All I gotta say is they better have some trump cards because having this at a standstill SUCKS!! 

Brew wrote on Mar 6^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

...removing the collective bargaining language from the budget repair bill and voting on it as a non-fiscal issue (which doesn't require a 3/5 quorum).

Just looking at that portion, these are some of the highlights:



Quote:

Collective bargaining Makes various changes to limit collective bargaining for most public employees to wages. Total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on inflation unless approved by referendum. Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until a new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues, and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. Changes would be effective upon expiration of existing contracts. Law enforcement, fire employees and state troopers and inspectors would be exempt from the changes.

also though


Quote:

Health care, academic workers Repeals the authority of home health care workers, family child care workers, UW Hospitals and Clinics employees, and UW faculty and academic staff to collectively bargain.

Times are tough.  Being this involves so many people though, backlash to language that might seem harsh can be amassed to the present situation.



Otherwise, highlights I'd agree are realistic:


Quote:

Pension contributions Requires employees who pay into the Wisconsin Retirement System to contribute 50 percent of their annual pension payment. That amount is estimated to be 5.8% of salary in 2011. Health insurance contributions Requires state employees to pay at least 12.6% of the average cost of annual premiums. Require changes to the plan design necessary to reduce current premiums by 5%. Local employers participating in the Public Employers Group Health Insurance plan would be prohibited from paying more than 88% of the lowest cost plan.

Pension accounting has made it a large liability* and health care is just plain expensive.





Quote:

Absences and other work actions Authorizes appointing agencies to terminate any employees who are absent for three days without approval or any employees participating in an organized action to stop or slow work if the governor has declared a state of emergency.

I'm definitely for showing up, my crew knows that.  Slacking in an emergency don't cut it either.





*dark article about this:

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Economists: State, local pension funds understate shortfall by $1.5 trillion or more

Hey Brew, is this the Trump card??

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That's the nuclear option.  And they passed it.

I don't mean to brag....

Lucky you!  Can we interest you in a trade?  Quinnoccio for Scott?  We'll even throw in Mike Madigan and his spawn.

Jerry

Such a short-sighted act.  Unions don't vote, but people sure will.

Quote:

Such a short-sighted act.  Unions don't vote, but people sure will.

    The people in Wisconsin voted already when they elected Scott to do exactly what he promised to do. And the unions don't vote, but they spend a hell of a lot of money trying to get elected who they want.

Mike

Edit to add

P.S. And the (taxpayer) money paid to public employees that goes to the union's choices, is not always the choice of the employee. They don't get to choose.

And if you don't want to join the union, you won't have a job either.

deltadarlin wrote on Mar 10^th, 2011 at 7:01pm:

And if you don't want to join the union, you won't have a job either.

Not anymore.

Brew wrote on Mar 10^th, 2011 at 7:09pm:

deltadarlin wrote on Mar 10th, 2011 at 7:01pm: And if you don't want to join the union, you won't have a job either. Not anymore.

I LOVE it!!!  There are a number of jobs I would have liked to have, but I refuse to be a part of the corrupt mob controlled unions here in the state of IL.  We too have a closed shop state, where if one is a union member all must be.  I don't care if you want to be a part of the union.  Knock yourself out, but I resent being forced to pay moneys out of my pocket to some corrupt union thug just so I can have a job, then have him tell me I have to go on strike and lose all I've worked for while walking a picket line that I don't believe in.  Nor do I believe it right to forcibly take my dues that I don't want to pay in order to contribute to political candidates with whom I am diametrically opposed.

Jerry

I'd love to see federal "right to work" legislation.

Callico wrote on Mar 9^th, 2011 at 10:54pm:

Lucky you!  Can we interest you in a trade?  Quinnoccio for Scott?  We'll even throw in Mike Madigan and his spawn. Jerry

C'mon up, Jerry! We got room for one more.

It has been long traditional that the administration loses seats at mid-term.  Walker rode the flow, and it took many multi-millions for him to get elected 1.1 million to 1 million votes.  That kind of margin is not a mandate to dictate changes off-budget from his campaign.  He has not made the transition from the politics of campaigning to the politics of governance.  Long before 250,000 jobs are created from this upswing he's riding, he'll have created 250,000 dissenters.

It has not been good campaign policy demonizing corporations and mentioning their growing overbearing with political influence while in a lackluster economy, but with things changing on their own and now a degrading economic message to the middle class, there will be vote swings.  By minimizing unions, this will get the spotlight it doesn't want.

The tea party had a spending revolt tour in WI last fall.  Borrowing the patriotic expression of the original tea party and using that event to inspire followers they are doing the noble and brave thing in fighting for a cause worked temporarily before.  In December 1860, when S.C. was first to secede, the Charleston Mercury read this way: "The tea has been thrown overboard.  The revolution of 1860 has been initiated."

The expression can be used in any manner of sway for sectioned nationalistic purposes, but not for long.
 




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The people in Wisconsin voted already when they elected Scott to do exactly what he promised to do.

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Walker outlined his six-step plan 1 -- Lower Taxes "I want to lower the tax on employers, lower the tax on income, freeze property taxes and phase out retirement income taxes.  States that have a lower tax burden have more jobs and better budgets, and its time Wisconsin was a better state to do business." 2 -- Less Regulations "State agencies should be more responsive to the customer and standards must be science-based and predictable." 3 -- End Frivolous Lawsuits "Luckily, we stopped the Governor’s changes in joint and several liability, but we need to do more to block frivolous lawsuits, and we need true tort reform to help lower health care costs." 4 -- Better Education "We need a strong education system with more accountability and more tools to prepare our future workforce.  And it means giving our UW System the tools to operate more like a business to pursue economic development." 5 -- Improve Healthcare "We need help for employers to be able to afford the costs of providing health care without government taking total control.  That means eliminating the state tax on Health Savings Accounts.  It means full disclosure on medical procedures.  And it means helping employers tap into larger purchasing pools to share the risk.  Most importantly, it means finding new ways for everyone to get some skin in the game so we work on improving our health which will ultimately lead to lower costs." 6 -- Strong Infrastructure "Reliable energy sources and dependable transportation links are the final piece to our plan."

I'm not seeing yesterday's action as any overt understandable promise to the people of WI who elected him, unless their was also another underlying agenda unmentioned, not budget related.  Things would have been different election day.  Nuclear?  I'd be watching for the coming fallout.


This is somebody doing as promised:


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Republican Sen. Dale Schultz cast the lone dissenting vote. Schultz said he had spent four weeks working for compromise. "Ultimately, I voted my conscience, which I feel reflects the core beliefs of the majority of voters who sent me here to represent them," he said in a statement.

Whatever, Kevin. I'm sure there are a good majority of federal workers who would give their left nut to have the deal Wisconsin state workers have, even AFTER this law.

Anybody who didn't see this showdown coming didn't see Scott Walker in action as Milwaukee County Executive for 8 years. And this is just the beginning. They haven't even started talking about the next biennial budget yet.

God bless him. Damn the naysayers. The status quo is dead. And although it has for the last 50 years, government is NOT supposed to be in the business of providing an ever widening gravy train. A victory for the taxpayers of Wisconsin.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, shall not take from the mouth of labour the bread it has earned." --Thomas Jefferson

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They haven't even started talking about the next biennial budget yet.

They actually haven't started on this one yet.  Still party politics.


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a "nuclear option," removing the collective bargaining language from the budget repair bill and voting on it as a non-fiscal issue

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"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, shall not take from the mouth of labour the bread it has earned." --Thomas Jefferson

Although T.J. was not yet pro-biz at the time of that speech.  We've done the experiment where men of money dominate, they had to talk to Teddy to get that ship righted again.  Walker is no balance.

Madison believed it to be understood that an expanded nat'l sphere of operations would prevent the diverse and clashing interests of society from combining to create tyrannical majorities in the new nat'l gov -- the give-and-take of clashing private interests would neutralize themselves in society.

This is the first priority Walker took a swipe at above budget concerns in his realm.  The first rule of dictatorship is eliminate the opposition.

When the "opposition" is funded by the coerced "contributions" of the people there is no equality of argument.  Allow those same people the choice of contributing or not contributing and you will see a far different volume of contributions.  Then perhaps the unions will have a legitimate voice in this argument. 

I find it interesting that Wisconsin is getting all the press when you look at what other states are doing that are far more draconian to the unions.  Even MI has passed legislation allowing the local governments to void union contracts in order to right their budgets.

Jerry

How to screw up the 2012 elections for the GOP:

I can't think of a better way to loosen up the GOP/Tea Party hold on blue dogs and crossover independent voters than what they have done in Wisconsin. It's been a long time since unions and a ton of not so reliable left wingers have had such a good reason to make themselves heard in every way possible. With all the chest pounding the GOP succeeded in making it national.

Not a bright move.

Charlie

Sorry, Charlie. Take another drink of kool aid.

Americans are starting to catch on to the 'us vs. them' attitude of the unions. We're tired of it.

Callico wrote on Mar 11^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

I find it interesting that Wisconsin is getting all the press when you look at what other states are doing that are far more draconian to the unions.  Even MI has passed legislation allowing the local governments to void union contracts in order to right their budgets.

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Details of Snyder’s budget proposal Published: Thursday, February 17, 2011 STATE WORKERS The budget assumes $180 million in concessions from state employees. These would have to be bargained with labor unions.

We'll close schools and free criminals, but it appears we're still bargaining.  Could be renegotiations, familiar so quieter.

Brew wrote on Mar 11^th, 2011 at 11:11pm:

Americans are starting to catch on to the 'us vs. them' attitude of the unions. We're tired of it.

Sounds more like party politics talk.

I've never been able to understand the liberal, punish the successful, way of thinking.  Is it just sour grapes, laziness, or what?

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Quote: Details of Snyder’s budget proposal Published: Thursday, February 17, 2011 STATE WORKERS The budget assumes $180 million in concessions from state employees. These would have to be bargained with labor unions. We'll close schools and free criminals, but it appears we're still bargaining.  Could be renegotiations, familiar so quieter.

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Passed 26 to 12 in the Senate on March 9, 2011, to add to the conditions that can trigger the appointment of an Emergency Financial Manager for fiscally failing municipalities and school districts, and greatly enhance the powers of EFMs. They would have the power to cancel or amend existing government or school employee union collective bargaining agreements and other contracts. School EFMs would have authority over academic matters, and could close schools. An EFM could also order new borrowing, or put a property tax millage increase on the ballot.


    Basically, if the school is failing, rather than just throwing more tax dollars at it, a non-union adult can come in and try to straighten it out. I have a great respect for teachers, but for a long time I have felt that their profession has been hijacked by the unions. It has past time for change.

Mike

M.R. wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 8:12am:

Basically, if the school is failing, rather than just throwing more tax dollars at it, a non-union adult can come in and try to straighten it out.

That makes sense, Mike, the same as any business would do that is failing. 

We've just been contracting and closing, so easily done -- just ask for a millage, it'll close fast.



I've seen job ads for teachers at what they call schools taken over, I don't know if they're charter or what.  Start at 10 bucks an hour.  They claim better quality learning than the streets.

Kevin_M wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 7:02am:

Sounds more like party politics talk.

It is. Dems are in bed with union bosses, and they end up negotiating the contracts together, using public monies to fulfill the terms of the contracts. So they both end up singing the same song to keep the gravy train flowing.

What I still can't believe is how many of their members buy into it. Stockholm syndrome, perhaps. I guess we'll see soon since it's now law that membership and contribution of dues are no longer mandatory.

I must correct myself here.  Wisconsin is still a closed shop state.  If you're going to bust the unions, why not make it a Right to Work State?

Brew wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 8:52am:

It is. Dems are in bed with union bosses, and they end up negotiating the contracts together, using public monies to fulfill the terms of the contracts. So they both end up singing the same song to keep the gravy train flowing. What I still can't believe is how many of their members buy into it. Stockholm syndrome, perhaps. I guess we'll see soon since it's now law that membership and contribution of dues are no longer mandatory.

There's also corporate lobbyist sway with legislators, negotiating contracts, in which the return on investment doesn't reach down to many voters.

Corporate general contributions have an unlimited hand in support since last year with Supreme Court decision Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.

Motivation for legislation seems to be based on, who has the most money wins.  Anonymous, not specific, but vast.  Five milliion dumped in a race by Republican Governors Association for a state gets the better spin. 

Since about August 2008 that I've known of, simply defunding a party has been the game plan.  With the S.C. decision, unlimited funding available. 

Budgets are an extreme concern. 

Leaving a livelihood in the hands of corporate decisions has not seemed to be trustworthy.  Many people's memory of this lately has been to lose their job.  This is what still affects people at this stage.  Saying you are making a more fertile environment for business can be equated with discontented thoughts of lower wages when many are working very hard now just to pay bills, and for lower costs, business can make it even harder.  All they see is someone makes out, but never them, and this can comprise a large number of people who vote.  Most likely not investors either.

It's not that profit is wrong, it's just that they have no incentive to create jobs, only incentive to come to a state and make profits, foremost of course, the fertile environment.  It has been an employers market, hiring for less, and many see it to be ever moreso, which is what carries this beyond state workers.

There are many who are successful, but there is less room between good pay and minimum wage, the middle ground many are happy to have. 

Getting off the goverment payroll would be a great idea, if corporations had more of that middle ground to offer people.  As they've found, much can be done for less outsourcing jobs elsewhere, a lack of security has permeated thoughts of trusting corporations.  This is what unions opposingly have represented, security.  Too much is bad, I agree, we get into that Peter Principle thing too, but a good worker would like it to be felt a little more than experienced lately, and promoted on merit.  That era may not be coming back.  Meanwhile watching decisions promote the person who shows enough to fool none of the people none of the time except the people upstairs.  ;)

Yeah ok, I'll trust that.   :)

Perhaps if Democratic legislators were more corporate friendly then they too can have the financial backing?  But instead, the Dem side likes to paint corporations who make a lot of $ as being evil.  Now yes, I agree there are greedy companies, but there are also many good ones that give back to the community as well as the nation.

The public union system is unfair against ALL citizens when the government has a monopoly on education, hospitals, etc.  You're just pitting taxpayer against taxpayer, not a worker against a company where it balances out better. :-/

Bob P wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 7:51am:

I've never been able to understand the liberal, punish the successful, way of thinking.  Is it just sour grapes, laziness, or what?

What's happened for the last 30 years especially is a dramatic illustration of what happens when everything is let go. Up to 1929 there was little regulation at all. Throughout the latter half of the 19th and some of the 20th centuries, there were panics or severe economic disruptions about every 7 to 10 years. Getting government "out of the way" was the answer until 1929. Then came along FDR. It worked for 70 years. Then, About 1980, Ronald Reagan at first, and with Dubya finishing up "set things right" and here we are: 2008...It turns out that politicians and economists alike have spent decades unlearning the lessons of the 1930s.

We need government to regulate business to some extent. We want regulation to be strong enough to reduce risk but not to stifle innovation. We want regulators to work cooperatively but not be in bed with those they monitor.

Charlie

FDR also believed that unions had no place among public workers.

My brother in law is so hyped up about getting the republican senators recalled and is helping getting the petitions going.  I on the otherhand am signing to have the democratic senetors who fled the state and hid and didn't do there job and made the situation worse by dragging it out recalled.  This state is in total disarray now.  I just can not believe it.  The protesters are still protesting and today the farmers got involved with the tractors down on the square by the capitol.  I am not sure why the protesters have not gone home.  It is a done deal.  Depspite the fact that the city of Madison and Dane County are suing to have it stopped from going into law and effect and have it reversed.  Did I say what a mess?

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The protesters are still protesting and today the farmers got involved with the tractors down on the square by the capitol.  I am not sure why the protesters have not gone home.  It is a done deal.

The foretold coming of the bully mesiah has arrived delivering his followers the air of swaggering truculence for this true arrow of confrontational politics -- discontent.  He's risen the exhalted and adored step to fundamentally unpopular from the laughing stock called public sentiment, and it pleases.  Share the pleasure of putting those weaklings in their place.  It shall be known that by any means, bid wages down, profits up and ye shall be free.

Kevin_M wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 6:48am:

The foretold coming of the bully mesiah has arrived delivering his followers the air of swaggering truculence for this true arrow of confrontational politics -- discontent.  He's risen the exhalted and adored step to fundamentally unpopular from the laughing stock called public sentiment, and it pleases.  Share the pleasure of putting those weaklings in their place.  It shall be known that by any means, bid wages down, profits up and ye shall be free.

I guess the alternative is to just keep throwing larger and larger sums of my money at them.

Like the old parody on the DeBeers commercial: "Diamonds. That'll shut her up."

Quote:

The protesters are still protesting and today the farmers got involved with the tractors down on the square by the capitol.  I am not sure why the protesters have not gone home.  It is a done deal.

Partial aid with the disjointed abyss, another's answer.

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Quote:

Why farmers are driving their tractors to protest at the Capitol The fact that small farmers like Greeno have decided to protest Walker's budget is an indication not all is well in America's Dairyland. So is the handful of e-mails, phone calls and messages the grassroots Family Farm Defenders have received over the past several days because of its involvement with the event. John Peck, the group's director, says the calls and messages he has received have one common message: farmers participating in Saturday's protest are being "duped" into supporting the unions. "This isn't us versus them, with farmers siding with union employees," says Scott Schultz, executive director of the Wisconsin Farmers Union. "In rural farm communities, Walker's budget is hitting home in a number of ways." ... Zimmerman says agriculture has historically fared well as an industry because most lawmakers have farmers in their districts, giving politicians from both sides of the aisle an understanding of agriculture-related issues. While Greeno says he typically votes for Democrats, Peck says many of the farmers coming Saturday are Republicans, just not "Walker-style Republicans". "These are Dale Schultz-style Republicans coming to Madison," Peck says. Dale Schultz, who represents the Richland Center area, is the only Republican senator who voted against the controversial bill signed Friday by Walker that stripped public union workers of most of their collective bargaining rights. "These are people who are starting to realize Walker's agenda is sacrificing Wisconsin's quality of life for everyone, not just labor unions," Peck says. "That's why they are rallying in Madison."

Quote:

"These are people who are starting to realize Walker's agenda is sacrificing Wisconsin's quality of life for everyone, not just labor unions," Peck says. "That's why they are rallying in Madison."

Which is why these people need to go home and figure out how they're going to maintain their "quality of life" without sucking at the public teat. I and the other taxpayers who elected these guys are done with it. If it's civil war they want, it's civil war they'll get. I know which side is better armed.

"Quality of life" provided by government is not sustainable.

That is the disjoining aspect of this, why are farmers worried so much about these state employees to drive tractors there?  That's not just the issue as Charlie keeps pointing out, this reaches farther.  That's why it was so short-sighted.




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Walker's agenda is sacrificing Wisconsin's quality of life for everyone, not just labor unions

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In December 1860, when S.C. was first to secede, the Charleston Mercury read this way: "The tea has been thrown overboard.

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If it's civil war they want, it's civil war they'll get. I know which side is better armed.

How sadly ironic to be using the original tea party memory for this.

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I know which side is better armed.

Smother democracy with an avalanche of money.

If the public unions were truly interested in democracy, they'd accept the outcome of the November elections. Hint: they're not interested.

Yep, the arms of money talked pretty loud in a close one, but ignored the part on the back, ... We Trust.









Nixon's second term was a landslide.  But then...

Marc wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 11:50am:

It's good to see that you folks have been enormously successful at changing each others positions.

Yes, I crossed my legs twice.      ;)




Quote:

Regardless of political position, I recommend that people prepare for potential changes in their lifestyle.

What's cookin', Marc.



Still hoping all best for you on business ventures.     :)

Kevin_M wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 10:25am:

That is the disjoining aspect of this, why are farmers worried so much about these state employees to drive tractors there?  That's not just the issue as Charlie keeps pointing out, this reaches farther.  That's why it was so short-sighted. Quote: Walker's agenda is sacrificing Wisconsin's quality of life for everyone, not just labor unions

The farmers are union and accept government subsidies.

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Quote:

The farmers are union and accept government subsidies.

What if they will need to be armed, like oil?  Their subsidies passed no problem.

Maybe they're worried food is less important though.   

Kevin_M wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 12:29pm:

Quote: The farmers are union and accept government subsidies. What if they will need to be armed, like oil?  Their subsidies passed no problem. Maybe they're worried food is less important though.

??  I guess I don't understand your question. :-/

Oh.  Maybe their worried about putting out more money for a bigger lobby.  Kind of like having to pay union dues, only much more.

Kevin_M wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 12:38pm:

Oh.  Maybe their worried about putting out more money for a bigger lobby.  Kind of like having to pay union dues, only much more.

Who is "they"?  The farmers?

Marc, that sounds really great for you.  I'm very happy to hear! 

You had too many good skills to ever let lie dormant. 


I know it was tough for quite a stretch, but your good attitude prevailed.       ;)

Melissa wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 12:50pm:

Who is "they"?  The farmers?

Oh, yes Mel.  I speelled it wrong.

Kevin_M wrote on Mar 13^th, 2011 at 12:59pm:

Melissa wrote on Mar 13th, 2011 at 12:50pm: Who is "they"?  The farmers? Oh, yes Mel.  I speelled it wrong.

Oh, ok.  lol

Charlie wrote on Mar 12^th, 2011 at 4:21pm:

Bob P wrote on Mar 12th, 2011 at 7:51am: I've never been able to understand the liberal, punish the successful, way of thinking.  Is it just sour grapes, laziness, or what? What's happened for the last 30 years especially is a dramatic illustration of what happens when everything is let go. Up to 1929 there was little regulation at all. Throughout the latter half of the 19th and some of the 20th centuries, there were panics or severe economic disruptions about every 7 to 10 years. Getting government "out of the way" was the answer until 1929. Then came along FDR. It worked for 70 years. Then, About 1980, Ronald Reagan at first, and with Dubya finishing up "set things right" and here we are: 2008...It turns out that politicians and economists alike have spent decades unlearning the lessons of the 1930s. We need government to regulate business to some extent. We want regulation to be strong enough to reduce risk but not to stifle innovation. We want regulators to work cooperatively but not be in bed with those they monitor. Charlie

;)

UCLA economists studying the great depression determined that FDR's bailout policies lengthened the depression by 7 years.  Ronnie, on the other hand, kept the Goverment out of the recession during his term.  In a year it had corrected and we were back in business.
It's all Dubya's fault! :-X

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After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years. "Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump," said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA's Department of Economics. "We found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies." In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

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studying the great depression determined that FDR's bailout policies lengthened the depression by 7 years

Hoover's alternatives had the first shot at it.  He wasn't re-elected.

Depression years: 1929-1939.  If FDR extended it by seven years, that means we were on the verge of emerging by the end of Hoover's term in '32.  You buy that?

By '34-35, FDR even pushed through a Dust Bowl in his agenda.




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Ronnie, on the other hand, kept the Goverment out of the recession during his term.  In a year it had corrected and we were back in business.

The recession was already a year old before Ronnie stated we are in a "slight recession".  After after that, the recession was at its lowest, 82-83, and these would follow being back in business.


1983 - Bank failures exceeded those of the Great Depression.

1984 - Bank failures culminated with the Continental Illinois collapse and rescue package.

1985 - Unemployment national average of 10%.  (MI peaked earlier at 15.6%)

Housing, steel, autos did not recover until the end of his second term.

Of course business practices of the time contributed greatly.  He inherited a very bad situation and it was better by the end of his second term.  Another small recession soonafter.


During his time we moved from the biggest creditholder in the world to the biggest debtor. 

another's view:


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By the end of 1982 the U.S. economy was deeply depressed, with the worst unemployment rate since the Great Depression. So there was plenty of room to grow before the economy returned to anything like full employment. In this view, Reaganomics was not a refutation but rather a confirmation of Keynesian economics: the expansion was primarily a recovery from the 1982 recession, which was created by the textbook Keynesian monetary policy of Volcker, not the tax policy of Reagan.

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It's all Dubya's fault!

2008, another great year?

The Liberal academia at UCLA studied it a lot more than I have, or ever will, so I'll go with what they say.

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Ronnie raised taxes too.