.

Dale’s Black Eye Palsy, a Cause of Cluster Headaches Postulate

Dale Fairly,  November 21, 2016, first revision January 1, 2017


Definition

  Dale’s Black Eye Palsy is a neurological disorder of certain nerves of the face, located in the orbit.
  Similar to Bell’s palsy which disrupts an output cranial nerve, Dale’s Black Eye palsy disrupts an input cranial nerve.  With Bell’s palsy, the loss of motor function makes diagnosis easy.  However, Dale’s Black Eye palsy is a loss of input signals, less understood and difficult to recognize.  Both disorders disrupt part of the same autonomic nerve.
  These nerves, the Infraorbital, the Zygomatic and the Greater Petrosal nerves (V2+) become entrapped in the orbit floor.  This entrapment leads to nerve compression.  The nerve compression reduces the nerve signal.  The weak signal results in palsy of the terminal systems.
  Symptoms occur when the nerves undergo nerve friction, intermittent and/or constant nerve compressions.  Initially, the friction may only be transient, resulting in symptom free periods.
  Orbit floor movement produces intermittent nerve compressions, proportional to the orbital floor stress.  Whereas, significant entrapment, infection, inflammation, cold, or rest produce longer constant compression.
  Strong sudden compression causes significant stimulation, and significant distress suddenly, like a ‘funny bone’.  Soft, constant compression is like a leg ‘falling asleep’.  Similarly, after these compressions, some recovery time is necessary before normal function returns, although longer.
  In most patients, Dale’s Black Eye Palsy is progressive, as the bones age.


  Allow me to give some background to my idea.
  We are just regular people, who experience cluster headaches.  At times we are fine.  Sometimes we suffer debilitating nerve pain and dysfunction.  Then we are fine again.
  I was embarrassed and frustrated that mostly I was fine.

  I got to thinking.  That sort of pattern reminded me of when I had a pinched nerve in my back.  I would be fine, then all of a sudden, pain and dysfunction; I couldn’t move.  Sometime later the pain would subside and function would return.  I could move around again.
  About this time, my brother in law John suggested I go see a chiropractor.  I thought his concern was nice, but crazy.  I wasn’t going to waste any of my money on that.
  Well, I had another attack (of course).  Nothing was helping.  I remembered what John had said.  I tried to imagine how a skull might be manipulated and started pressing, bending, and twisting at my head, while keeping my head and neck still.
  Low and behold, I found that certain grips could increase my pain, and other grip positions would reduce my pain.  I kept experimenting with successive attacks and found specific areas to press or pull to help reduce my pain.
  It tuned out that these beneficial maneuvers all act to open my bad orbit.
  Again I was reminded of back pain.  If I moved ‘wrong’, I would get a pinch in my back.
  It sure seemed similar.  But how could that be, which nerve?

  In general, our problem affects the same areas on each of us, such as: specific skin on the face, sinus issues, tears, etc..  Which nerves supply those systems?
  The skin and sinus are easy.  They are innervated by the Infraorbital and Zygomatic nerves, branches of the Maxillary nerve, a branch of the Trigeminal nerve.
  But what about the tears?
  The lacrimal gland is innervated by two nerves, the lacrimal nerve of V1 and the somatic Greater Petrosal nerve, also referred to as the ‘lacrimal feedback loop’.
  I had to think long on this problem.  Finally I found an answer that matches my dysfunction.
  When I cut an onion, both my eyes will tear.  I consider this to indicate the Trigeminal (lacrimal V1) nerve is functioning properly, protecting both my eyes from external insult.
  However, when I have trouble, I can only cry emotional tears out my good eye.  Emotions are part of the autonomic system.  That’s the lacrimal feedback loop.  A lack of nerve signal might cause this.

  Okay, I had these three nerves identified.  Next, I followed these three in toward the brain.  They first all meet on the orbit floor, before exiting the orbit out the inferior fissure.
  I’ve had imaging done.  That is the same spot that shows irregularity on my images.
  Ding, ding, ding, bells went off in my head.
  Might we all, who suffer, have an extra tight spot in that location?
  I'm just a regular guy.  I’m sure most of you feel the same way when you’re symptom free.
  Those nerves supply necessary input and output information.  Our dysfunction arises when the nerves are critically squeezed, kind of like a hose, less signal will flow, disrupting the end systems relying on these nerves.
  I know this sounds a little simplistic.  Sometimes the simple answer is the best answer.
  Do cluster headache symptoms result from a yet unrecognized nerve pinch point?  Is it similar to pinch points in the back, or carpal tunnel syndrome?  My experience is yes.
  I have been able to use this postulate to answer and explain all my questions about this disorder.  I look forward to helping you have a better understanding of this situation.

And what's this got to do with CH's  :question :question :question :

Hoppy

I got your black eye palsey right here in my right fist.

.

Look to the left, for the three little fish.

  I know you're asking yourself, how can the orbit floor move?  It moves very little.  However, it can flex and/or compress enough to irritate our nerves.

Orbit Floor Movement / Maxillary bone
  The orbit floor is stressed by four forms of inputs: transient positive and negative sinus pressure from breathing, vibration from sound, forehead load bearing, and from other external forces.
  Imagine the orbit floor as a ‘hammock’ that supports the orbit contents.  The ‘hammock’ is full and tight supporting its load. 
  The “hammock’ is pulled down and raised up when breathing in and out against nasal restrictions.
  Sound resonating in the maxillary sinus shakes the bottom, under the floor.  Talking and loud noises can hurt.  Sneezing is bad. 
  Another function of the orbit floor is to transfer the weight of the forehead to the neck.  The heavy load compresses the bone and V2+.  Dynamic loading of this compression is the largest contributor to cluster headache attacks.  The two worst examples are walking and motor vehicle transport.
  Head position also affects the bone compression level of the load transfer.  Tilting the head moves the center of gravity, changing the weight load experienced by the orbit floor.
  Finally, external forces also influence orbit floor compression.  Pressing on the head can affect compression similar to head tilting.  Use of an orthotic cranial helmet helps to stabilize movement of the orbit floor, reducing compression events.
  Patients can find some relief if they: breathe thru their mouth,  stay quiet, reduce head movements, avoid noisy environments, tilt or brace the head as to open the affected orbit, wear a support helmet and spongy soled shoes during transport.

.

  Some have asked, ‘How do you know you have a pinched nerve in your face’?  It’s been my life.  This may help explain how I know.

  What is neurology all about?  At its base, it studies whether your nerves are patent, fine or not.
  What are our choices?  The nerve could be healthy, the nerves could be damaged, the nerve could have grown a neuroma (a nerve ball), there might be a chemical imbalance, the nerve is pinched, or, or what is the other choice?  That’s pretty much it, fine, damaged, nerve ball, chemical imbalance, or pinch.  Let’s compare our symptoms to these choices.

  I suffer cluster headaches, a neurological condition.  My nerves are troubled. 
  Damaged nerves tend to work consistently bad, with about the same amount of dysfunction.  Sometimes I am fine and without dysfunction.  My nerves must be fine at times.  This rules out damage.
  A neuroma, nerve ball, is like a little funny bone where ever it grows.  I have been evaluated for neuroma and found clear and free.
  Chemical imbalance?  The chemical disorders I think of tend to have a systemic effect, lots of the body is involved.  It seems unlikely that an imbalance would only affect one spot, on one side of the body.  Furthermore, what chemical imbalance changes as I move my head?  This is different from my symptoms.
  So, that only leaves pinch.  My symptoms have a pattern similar to when I had a pinch in my back.
  That’s part of how I know I have a pinched nerve in my face.

  A pinched nerve, so what?  Let’s see, this particular nerve is very primal.  It’s the largest in the body.  It is two and a half times more brain input, than the entire spinal cord.  It alone is more than half the input to our brains.
  Our brains really listen to it.
  Oh, remember we also have a pinched autonomic nerve.  Loss of this nerve signal creates its own havoc. 

Take it easy on that noggin.



These are some  of my triggers:
  -Sneezing and breathing
  -Walking, motor vehicle transport, especially on concrete
  -Head position, especially in motion
  -Sound: Talking, singing, etc., noise, vibration
  -Pressing the head to close the affected orbit
  Heat and cold will affect these triggers.

I’ve had a lot of questions about breathing as a trigger.  Here’s my take on it.
  We all at times get that unusual stuffiness.  I consider nasal stuffiness to occur between open and plugged.
  This stuffiness dramatically raises the nasal backpressure.  Forcing nasal breathing at these times will affect the Maxillary sinus and then the orbit floor.
  The orbit floor moves very little.  It’s a matter of summation.  Each little flex, squeeze, or vibration just adds a small amount of nerve distress.  The four types of stressors each add their little bits as you go about your day.  Once enough of these small assaults have reached a critical level, the next one, of any type, will cause revolt.  Now, how can you ever tell?  By this time some swelling has caused numbness.  It’s an input nerve needed for feedback.  No nerve signal is our problem.
  So, yes, I say breathing can be a trigger.  Given that:  You have stuffiness, you force nasal breathing, and your summation has reached a critical level.
  If you are having an attack, especially with stuffiness, breathe thru your mouth.  During an attack try to eliminate all four sources of orbit stress.  Mouth breathing and reducing respiration with O2 will both help with one form.
  When you draw a big fast breath in your nose, you can hear it.  This indicates increased nasal backpressure.  Avoid it.

Whilst this could potentially result in a cluster-like headache, it by definition can't result in CH based on the IHS diagnostic criteria (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE) which includes:


Quote:

Not better accounted for by another ICHD-3 diagnosis.

This is based on CH being a primary headache wheres the suggested cause would result in it being a secondary headache.

lifer wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 11:33am:

You've got some pinched nerves in your face.  But wait, how can your orbit floor move? Orbit Floor Movement / Maxillary bone   The orbit floor is stressed by four forms of inputs: transient positive and negative sinus pressure from breathing, vibration from sound, forehead load bearing, and from other external forces.   Imagine the orbit floor as a ‘hammock’ that supports the orbit contents.  The ‘hammock’ is full and tight supporting its load.    The “hammock’ is pulled down and raised up when breathing in and out against nasal restrictions.   Sound resonating in the maxillary sinus shakes the bottom, under the floor.  Talking and loud noises hurt.  Sneezing splits the ‘hammock’.    Another function of the orbit floor is to transfer the weight of the forehead to the neck.  The heavy load compresses the bone and V2+.  Dynamic loading of this compression is the largest contributor to cluster headache attacks.  The two worst examples are walking and motor vehicle transport.   Head position also affects the bone compression level of the load transfer.  Tilting the head moves the center of gravity, changing the weight load experienced by the orbit floor.   Finally, external forces also influence orbit floor compression.  Pressing on the head can affect compression similar to head tilting.  Use of an orthotic cranial helmet helps to stabilize movement of the orbit floor, reducing compression events.   Patients can find some relief if they: breathe thru their mouth,  stay quiet, avoid noisy environments, tilt or brace the head as to open the affected orbit, wear a support helmet and spongy soled shoes during transport.

Bullshit.

       Potter

.

  Thanks for your continuing interest.  This surprised me.  I must be on to something.

  So far, this is the best argument against my idea:
'By definition there is no known cause, so there can be no cause'?

  I think the book may be out of date.

lifer wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:01pm:

Thanks for your interest.   Yes, now we're getting it.  CH is a secondary headache.  The book is just out of date.   By the way, what is the 'official' cause.  It is usually 'unknown', from what I've seen.

A wonky hypothalamus

         Potter

.

  I’ve heard that too, although wonky is the explanation.

  I feel this is a case of overthinking, and the symptom becoming the cause.

  There is hypothalamus involvement.  The hypothalamus controls the clock that resets these nerves nightly.
  The hypothalamus also uses these nerves to regulate body temperature and regulate the nasal cycle.  When the hypothalamus is without these input signals, it functions poorly.
  I feel our activity clock accounts for the daily timing of episodes.


  Let's talk about two of the ways, Gate theory and the nasal cycle.

  The first is Gate theory.  The hypothalamus functions properly at night and resets and opens the gates. 
  The alarm clock nature of Dale’s Black Eye Palsy arises from a resetting and opening of the gates, during nighttime sleep.  The brain becomes alert when the disturbed nerves suddenly resensitize, waking up the patient.
  It performs this as it should, even if the patient is disturbed.

  The second is control of the nasal cycle.  The hypothalamus is dependent on the Trigeminal nerve (V2) to perform this properly.

  The nasal cycle, controlled by the hypothalamus, maintains a constant nasal air flow resistance total of both nostrils.  The nasal conchae erect gradually from one side to the other, all the while maintaining constant resistance as they fill from one side to the other.
  Palsy of the infraorbital nerve disrupts this ability.  The ipsilateral conchae has more of an on and off, than the normal gradual change.  Filling too soon, and staying filled too long, cause a dramatic increase of nasal pressure when breathing.
  The increased nasal pressure causes the orbit floor (hammock) to flex back and forth with each breath in and out, producing nerve friction.  This friction reinforces the palsy, creating a feedback loop.
  The nasal cycle amplitude is affected by posture, higher laying down, and lower when standing.  Use this technique to reduce feedback.

  During rhinitis, sinus infection, the hypothalamus suspends the nasal cycle.  The conchae stop erecting.  This opens the nasal passage, greatly reducing sinus nasal pressure.  The low pressure greatly reduces nerve friction produced from breathing.
  Unfortunately, sinus infection will develop swelling and inflammation that constantly compresses V2+, causing numbness and increased palsy.  The numbness changes the nature of the pain.  The pain often ‘goes away’ and/or is undefinable.  This loss of definable pain during rhinitis can be mistaken for remission and/or confuse diagnosis.  Only long term nerve comfort results in correct V2+ function.
  Somatic, body disturbances tend to worsen during rhinitis.  With diminished infraorbital pain feedback, more nerve stimulation (compression) is tolerated, resulting in more numbness and palsy.

  There is also a third confusion about the hypothalamus.  Because it controls our biological clock, some have guessed about its involvement.  The attacks are mostly driven by movement.  Our daily schedule determines our activities.

Activity Clock
  People tend to have a daily schedule, engaging in the same activities about the same time each day.  They drive or walk to work, lean over a desk, or make that first cup of coffee each day, at the same time.  These different actions throughout the day change the stimulation of the nerve.  The nerves can withstand some compression, however, it is cumulative.  Too much trigger type activity results in nerve revolt, or a cluster headache.

HEY...WOW!...I believe in "gate theory" too...so.... pull yur head out...FIND the gate...and
don't let it hit you on the ass on the way out...we'll have to repaint!

Elvis may be dead (?)...but even he doesn't give a damn if you're lonesome
tonight...neither do we....EITHER website..................

Best?........naaaaaaaaah.....

Jon

If what you say is true, which is not, then everyone would be suffering from CH's  [smiley=duh.gif]

Hoppy

lifer wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 9:08pm:

There is also a third confusion about the hypothalamus.  Because it controls our biological clock, some have guessed about its involvement.  The attacks are mostly driven by movement.  Our daily schedule determines our activities.

They have done a lot more than just guessed at a link between CH and the hypothalamus.

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This describes research done using functional MRI scans of patients with CH attacks which show a clear link between hypothalamus activity and the CH.


lifer wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 9:08pm:

The alarm clock nature of Dale’s Black Eye Palsy arises from a resetting and opening of the gates, during nighttime sleep.

However not all CH attacks occur during sleep and whilst many people have alarm clock CHs, not everyone does.

TL;DR OP's motives are unclear ,  needs straight jacket.

.

  Good, let's bring this up.  My motives.  I would like to help.
  I have suffered more than 40 years with this beast.  I am glad, but also a little ashamed it took so long, to have finally found my triggers.  I was having multiple attacks a day, knocking me down completely.
  I feel so blessed to be able to help myself now.  By managing and maintaining my physical actions, I can prevent and/or stop attacks.
  Now, unless I must engage in trigger type activity,  I am free of attacks.  It has changed my life.  My motive is to help all of you have that same experience.  My palsy still gives me some pain and dysfunction, but the attacks are gone.

  I am well aware that what I am proposing is revolutionary.  Sometimes that happens.  Thank you for exploring this with me.
  I’m sorry if I have made any of you uncomfortable.  If my idea is too far out there for you, I understand.
  What I would like is a discussion regarding the merits and shortcomings of my postulate.  Could this be possible?  Does anyone else find it fits their symptoms?  My made up title is just a way to identify this particular idea, which fits my symptoms.
  Whether my idea pans out or not, we will still be haunted.  We will still have cluster headaches, whether it’s primary or secondary.
  Even if what I claim is found true, no one will help.  There is no approved surgery for my suspected cause.  No one is trained to perform it.  You’re likely to be made worse in an attempt to fix it.  I find no comfort in that.  It’s just our situation.

  I have found ways to comfort my nerves, reduce my pain, reduce my dysfunction, and reduce my attacks.  This may not be your thing.  That’s okay.  I’m totally convinced it’s mine.
  I moved forward when I stopped focusing on the pain, and started paying attention to my dysfunction.  The pain is unreliable.  It can be too much and overwhelm you, or go numb and trick you.  The dysfunction is a lot easier to discern and provides a reliable indication of nerve distress.


  To clear up any confusion, I suggest that you stay away from a chiropractor for this condition.  However, I have noticed we tend to hold our heads.  Head holding is good, especially in the right spots.

  I realize I use lots of medical terms about our medical condition.  It’s just how I think about it.  If my words are giving any of you trouble, please have me try explaining myself a different way.  I am trying my best to clearly express this idea.

.

  Your link described research done using functional MRI scans of patients with CH attacks which show a clear link between hypothalamus activity and the CH.

  I concede that there is a connection between the two.

  It is my position that the pinching reduces the required input signal necessary for proper hypothalamus stimulation and function.
  This is supported by your link. it states: " the present study,...has revealed the altered functional correlations of hypothalamus in CH patients during different states in the cluster period."
  To me, I hear, 'the function changes with symptom changes.'  The nerve is loose, good function.  The nerves get pinched, dysfunction, rippling thru all the brain areas that process V2+ information.

However not all CH attacks occur during sleep and whilst many people have alarm clock CHs, not everyone does.[/quote]

  Yes, you're right.  Attacks only occur when a critical compression level is reached.  This happens at different times for different people.
  Some suffer compression even while sleeping.  We are the alarm clock people. 


  Proper pillow placement helps support the head correctly, reducing some stress.  Use a firm king pillow, folded the long way.  When laying on the bad side, place only the forehead on the pillow.  Laying on your back, pillow under the base of the skull.  And finally, when laying on the good side, place only your cheek on the pillow. 
  All three of these positions will help to open the orbit.  It's a great way to start out, but somewhere in the night, those perfect positions get lost.  Any ideas how to help that?  I now just sleep slightly reclined sitting up, neck roll at the base of the skull.

Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it.

.

Skin / Infraorbital, and Zygomatic Nerves
  The affected skin is innervated by the Maxillary nerve.  Often the superior path of the Zygomatic nerve is mistaken for Ophthalmic nerve involvement.  Only V2+ compression is necessary for Dale’s Black Eye Palsy.

  Changing subjects, I’ve read back over my writing.  I use the terms compression, squeeze, pinch, and attack to try and make my point more clear.  Most of the time, we are noticing nerve irritation and inflammation.
  An inflamed nerve can swell.  The offending pathway stays the same size.  Relatively, the hole just got smaller, causing distress.  Treatment for inflammation is good.
  I appreciate the help and concern I’ve received from other members regarding inflammation treatment.

.

Head Holding
  We’ve all done it at times.  How many times have you heard, “Are you okay?”?   I had a hard time understanding this compulsion of mine.
  Only now, armed with this new knowledge, I want to open my bad orbit.
  Most of us press the temple.  Pressing the temple acts to open the orbit.  We have figured out how to help ourselves.   
  Head holding helps to reduce one of the four orbit floor stressors.  The load of the forehead compresses the bone, and with it the nerves.  I feel we hold our heads to help support this load and maintain an ‘open’ orbit.
  A problem I have is being able to hold my head manually with a constant force.  Sometimes I push too hard, other times, not enough.  I have found the steady constant force of gravity to be much more soothing.
  Moving the head’s center of gravity will change the skull’s stress distribution.
  Two beneficial movements for me are:  lift the nose slightly, until the head is just past balanced on the neck, and second, tilt the head slightly to the good side.  If it’s bad, I do both.  This is letting gravity do the work for me; gravity is ‘holding’ my head.
  My earlier 'pillow talk' is also gravity helping/holding.
  I am still searching for a comfortable way to look directly down at the ground.  This posture adds the weight of the rearhead to the weight of the forehead, and cantilevers it out over the orbit.  I manually hold my head to look directly down.
  Dynamic loading is the worst for me.  That is, when my head moves around.  The moving load produces sudden spikes of force.  These load spikes cause me the greatest nerve distress, and thus build up distress the fastest.  I am very careful how I hold my head while I’m moving.
  Why do you think we hold our heads?  Sure, because of the pain, but I think there’s more to it than that.  I feel compelled to hold my head even before the pain begins and after it is gone.  This need to support the forehead explains to me why I am so compelled to hold my head.




Hoppy wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 2:35am:

I'm pleased to read that you have your CH's under control, but sorry, I still don't get it,  [smiley=bulb.gif] Hoppy

Glad to hear you're still interested Hoppy,
  Your nerves, just under the eyeball, are partially stuck in the bone.  When the nerves are loose, no symptoms.  When the bone flexes or is squeezed,  the nerves get upset.  Make it upset enough, you'll get pain and dysfunction.  Going just a touch further will cause revolt and a cluster headache.
  Reduce the bone flexing and squeezing on the nerves, to reduce attacks.  This is easier said than done.

.

  Good, you’re still with me.  There is lots more to discuss.  This one is a major problem for us, and one that is near and dear to me.

Temperature

  How about that temperature?  I’ve had trouble finding others to talk to about temperature.  Outsiders just don’t get our unusual, inappropriate, or uncomfortable sense of temperature.

  I’ve got some thoughts about temperature.  If you have questioned my sanity already, be warned.
  I’ll be making assumptions and inferences that are different.  I’m going to coin new phrases; current outsider vocabulary fails me.
  This is a work in progress.  I promise to make mistakes.  I also promise to express my explanation of our disorder the best I can.

  Have any of you noticed this?  When out for a hike, you happen to cross a small creek.  Your feet feel the cold water.  The local skin contracts.  The local blood vessels may initially shrink, then dilate.  The rest of you doesn’t really care.
  A different particular part of the body is used for ‘core’ temperature control.


  You all know by now that I consider this a nerve problem, which reduces our nerve signals.  How can this be applied to temperature?

  Let’s start with normal.  Here it goes, outsiders will understand this part.
  Let’s compare our bodies to our houses.  Our bodies and our houses both have a thermostat with three settings, Off, AC, and Heat.  The house uses two wires, the body uses two nerves.  The house thermostat sends its signal to the HVAC system.  The body’s thermostat sends its signal to the hypothalamus.
  Your body senses temperature with two types of nerves.  The first type transmits a cold PAIN signal, and the second type transmits a warm signal.  These two nerves go to a little spot that acts like a thermostat, the Trigeminal Spinal Nucleus (TSN).
  When the two nerve signals are about the same strength, the thermostat stays in the Off position.  Along the same line, a critically larger cold PAIN signal will switch the thermostat to Heat.  A critically larger warm signal will switch on the AC.
  As we move through our day, these two nerves bounce us back and forth; helping us maintain an appropriate ‘core’ temperature and a feeling of comfort.
  This is how it should work.


  This next part is outside of outsiders’ frame of reference.  That’s okay, it’s just how their wired.
  If you’re going to continue, remember, I warned you.

  Our thermostat can have six positions: Off, AC, Heat, Only AC, Only Heat, and Only Off.
  We share the first three with everyone else, when everything is working.
  However, our wires sometimes lose contact and make an open circuit; or, our nerves are squeezed enough to block the signal.
  So what happens when the wires go out?  The thermostat gets sticky.
  A loss of cold PAIN signal will stick it on AC.
  A loss of the warm signal will stick it on Heat.
  A loss of both will.....  A loss of both will separate us from the others.  I used to call it ‘lost temperature’ when I was younger.
  How about when it is stuck Off?  The loss of both nerve signals fails to stimulate the thermostat (TSN) to output a signal.  Your AC and Heat are both stuck off.  You must manage your own heating and cooling.
  But wait, both nerves are numb.  How are you going to tell if you need to warm, or you need to cool yourself?  You can’t.
  Realize, temperature is the foundation of proper body function.  Life happens on a backdrop of temperature.  You gotta’ do something.  In that moment, I have no advice yet.
  I have found it best to avoid extreme temperatures during these times.  Temperature dysfunction is worse than pain for me; I feel a primal sense of discomfort.
  Do what you can to sooth your nerve, let it rest every so often.  Maintain your nerve health as a preventative.

  Notice this feeds to the Hypothalamus?  This is another cause of confusion about the hypothalamus.  Its working fine.  During Trigeminal temperature signal palsy, it receives a bad signal or no signal.

  We’re gonna’ keep going.

  Here’s where that inference happens.  We have temperature control dysfunction.  Therefore, one of our pinched nerves is the location responsible for ‘core’ temperature.  See it?
  If I were building us, I would use the Infraorbital nerve.  It can simultaneously sense the ambient air temperature, radiant temperature, and body temperature.
  I always argue that ‘core’ temperature is in the brain.  The body is just thermal mass.

  Temperature control is a forward feed system.  It is my experience that it feeds forward about three hours.  What your face feels now will spill out the body in three hours.  I notice it as a sense of ‘temperature delay’.  It seems focused more on the opposite good side of my body, contralaterally.
  This is the scary part about ‘lost temperature’.  You are unable to sense it initially.  You are still running off the thermostat setting from three hours ago.  Three hours later, ‘lost temperature’ spills out the body.

  Think back to your thermal environment three hours earlier.  Focus on your present thermal environment.  Stabilize your temperature, avoid temperature spikes, would you want to have that temperature later?  This is really hard for me to say.  If it makes sense to you, great.  If it doesn’t, don’t worry, it’s very primal.
  When you’re stuck on freezing or stuck on hot, it’s easier to learn.  It’s a no brainer.  If you’re hot, cool your face.  If you’re cold, warm your face.  Just remember to stop at the temperature you would like to have in three hours.

  This is my experience with temperature maintenance while having dysfunction.  This is just one symptom of Trigeminal nerve compression.
  The attack is the initial nerve revolt.  You got hit on the funny bone.  It’s gonna’ really hurt, then tingle for a while, numbness.  I’m trying to help you manage the dysfunctions suffered during numbness.  Continued compression creates continued numbness.  You may have continuous dysfunction.  Let’s find ways to treat our dysfunction.

  I really want to have an appropriate temperature, much more so than being pain free.  Notice all the PAIN?  Temperature is sensed by cold PAIN nerves and warm nerves.  I need PAIN to regulate my temperature.

  I discourage aggressive use of pain killers and drugs that diminish nerve activity.  We have a loss of signal.  Knocking down the weak nerve signals will bring more dysfunction.  I do advocate the use of certain nerve stimulating drugs during times of dysfunction.

  A caution on ice.  Icing is good in small doses.  It should be used in short ‘hugs’, to avoid numbness.  Ice used until numbness is bad.  We need that nerve signal.

  Want to know why some of us are hotties and others cold all the time?  Why do we switch between hot and cold?  I have the same answer as to why at times it may be my eye, or skin on another person.
  The nerve is pinched unevenly.  Each of us squeeze it our own way.  At times of nerve friction, this distribution may change.  This may lead to a change of which particular nerves are affected.  Once in a while it will slip, and be pinched in a different spot.

  Wow, what a mouthful.  Can you tell I’ve been dying to talk with others who share temperature dysfunction?  Does any of it sound familiar?
  Where would you like to go next?


.

You've overthunk it.

          Potter

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        Here ya go, try your schtick there.

              Potter

"Seems the thing that drives me crazy don't have no effect on you...but I'm gonna keep on trying 'til it drives you crazy too"   Langston Hughes

Well.....don't hold your breath. No...WAIT....breathing is a trigger!!!!   Carry on................

.

Risk Factors
  Individuals with risk taking behavior engage in activities which put them at a greater chance of head trauma.  Any head trauma resulting in injury to the orbit floor may cause this palsy, commonly occurring during youth.  Injuries resulting from a black eye are suspect, as well as, infants dropped upside down on the front of the head.  Typically unilateral, rarely, a severe or repeated trauma may result in bilateral palsy.
  Age 40+.  With age, comes the solidifying of the skull.  This hardens and ‘roughens’ the small orbit floor path.
  Specific congenital defects, affecting this pathway, may also cause or predispose this palsy.



Internal Nasal Valve / Infraorbital
  The internal nasal valve is located just inside the nose.  In mammals the resting state of the valve is closed.  It requires a signal to dilate.  In humans, the infraorbital nerve supplies a constant background signal for dilation.  Breathing thru the nose will induce an additional signal that opens the valve further.  The diving reflex may also interrupt this nerve signal.
  Constriction of the valve also disrupts the normal nasal air flow resistance, inducing a feedback loop similar to nasal cycle palsy.


Sinus / Infraorbital
  It just has to be a sinus issue!  Well, kind of.  The Infraorbital nerve supplies the sinus.  When this part of the nerve suffers compression, the cilia and mucus cells that clear and clean the sinus are weak or paralyzed.  Furthermore, the mucus cell dysfunction limits their ability to activate the limbic system.   As insulting contamination accumulates and increases, so does infection.  This is often accompanied by nasal valve collapse and tonsil palsy.  The collapsed valve reduces the ventilation of fresh air and blocks the discharge of liquid drainage, thus increasing the chance of a sinus infection even further.  Tonsil palsy may occur, slowing infection clearing.  Once an infections is established, total recovery is difficult.  The infection, inflammation, and sinus swelling increase the nerve compression and sinus palsy.  See ‘Nasal Cycle’.




Thankfully, just the lucky few of us, who have entrapment of those mentioned nerves, notice this.

Kinda like only people with a pinched nerve in their back notice it.  When its pinched, major pain.  When it gets loose, no problem.


  Wow!  Thanks for the link Feisty.  I am surprised to read this.  This describes how we at times have a one hour heart rate rhythm delay.  It goes on to note a lack of pulse rate variability.  I at times have chest pain during and after attacks.  Often, my pulse tends to tick about the same.
  Is this something like when I feel a sense of ‘temperature delay’?  That sounds similar.
  How do we manage our heart rate rhythm an hour in the future?


Clin Auton Res. 1993 Oct;3(5):291-8.
Imbalance of heart rate regulation in cluster headache as based on continuous 24-h recordings.
Micieli G1, Cavallini A, Bosone D, Tassorelli C, Barzizza F, Rossi F, Nappi G.
Author information
Abstract
An altered autonomic balance is considered to be a pathogenetic factor in cluster headache syndrome, although there is varying data on sympathetic and/or parasympathetic activation during attacks and/or attack-free intervals. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the day/night pattern of heart rate during the active and remission phases of cluster headache. In addition, the relationship between heart rate changes and the site of pain was investigated to determine if an autonomic imbalance was related to the lateralization of pain. Thirty-nine patients (34 with primary episodic cluster headache and five with primary chronic cluster headache and 30 healthy controls underwent 24-h Holter ECG recording. Nine cluster headache patients were monitored during both phases of the disease. The data obtained confirmed the existence of a disordered chrono-organization in cluster headache (phase-shift of approximately 1 h of heart rate rhythm during the cluster period) together with a low heart rate variability and a higher occurrence of arrhythmias in cluster headache patients with right-sided pain. Differences were also observed in the cluster headache patients when headache free, excluding the pain itself as a reason for the abnormality. The chronobiological data point out a transient rhythmic dysfunction, while heart rate variability changes, mostly related either to the phase of the disease or to the site of pain, probably reflects a central, site-related, dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system in cluster headache.



---------------------------------------------------


  I apologize for the vulgarity you had to wade thru.
  The rest is pretty sparse.  You might search my posts.
  I still like to follow this anyways, so please, feel free to comment.

  Thank you for your time and consideration.  I hope you all the best. 

This would be funny if it wasn't sad....

Dang...you went over the "Pat's Theorem" threshold by 2...I was hoping....

Slogging an infinitesimally rare ailment...IF it even exists...as some sort of comfort to a buncha folks with an actual rare ailment...that takes balls.....or something....is this fun for you?

Have you given up on the heathens over at clusterbusters? They'll give you a ride for your money.

Pimping chiropractic...why...you...well...you oughta have your head squeezed...oh....nevermind....
I think you've had enough of that.....the rest of us know that back crunchers aint got nothing for ch...and an honest one will tell you so...............

Still thinking you're doing too much breathing....although I was impressed with the advice to breath through your mouth ifn' your nose is plugged.....WOW...never would've thought of that...kudos....
thought I would have to breath through my third-eyelid....like a lava lizard...or Fernando

Have you heard of biochemistry...or really how ingestion of outside elements effects same?
Well....sheesh.....I had to clean the spit off my screen....alcohol does NOT effect clusterheads
depending on whether we are "loose" or "carry on as usual"....that's beyond senseless...and any clusterhead in cycle who has experienced the effect knows the foolishness of THAT theory...you
like medical lit...why not read up a little on THIS condition....if you can pry yourself outa fractured fairy tales ....

Please leave batch out of this...while he would NEVER post what I have above as he is the
ultimate gentleman...and smarter than the av-er-age bear...I, on the other hand, am a simple-minded knothead with ch...survivor of that and another recent trial... and tend not to suffer fools like I used to.....life's too short and this site is too important.........

Why don't you support and contribute on the numerous OTHER topics contained on this site?...feel free....it's the rare dude that gets kicked outa here....one note Johnny's are boring...and we've heard quite enough about Dale and his black eye (I prefer CHip and Dale). This particular dead horse is already pulverized dogmeat........


Sorry folks for wasting your time and DJ's dime...I will try to refrain from further comment on this pointless thread..........

Jon

jon019 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 8:46pm:

This would be funny if it wasn't sad.... Dang...you went over the "Pat's Theorem" threshold by 2...I was hoping.... Slogging an infinitesimally rare ailment...IF it even exists...as some sort of comfort to a buncha folks with an actual rare ailment...that takes balls.....or something....is this fun for you? Have you given up on the heathens over at clusterbusters? They'll give you a ride for your money. Pimping chiropractic...why...you...well...you oughta have your head squeezed...oh....nevermind.... I think you've had enough of that.....the rest of us know that back crunchers aint got nothing for ch...and an honest one will tell you so............... Still thinking you're doing too much breathing....although I was impressed with the advice to breath through your mouth ifn' your nose is plugged.....WOW...never would've thought of that...kudos.... thought I would have to breath through my third-eyelid....like a lava lizard...or Fernando Have you heard of biochemistry...or really how ingestion of outside elements effects same? Well....sheesh.....I had to clean the spit off my screen....alcohol does NOT effect clusterheads depending on whether we are "loose" or "carry on as usual"....that's beyond senseless...and any clusterhead in cycle who has experienced the effect knows the foolishness of THAT theory...you like medical lit...why not read up a little on THIS condition....if you can pry yourself outa fractured fairy tales .... Please leave batch out of this...while he would NEVER post what I have above as he is the ultimate gentleman...and smarter than the av-er-age bear...I, on the other hand, am a simple-minded knothead with ch...survivor of that and another recent trial... and tend not to suffer fools like I used to.....life's too short and this site is too important......... Why don't you support and contribute on the numerous OTHER topics contained on this site?...feel free....it's the rare dude that gets kicked outa here....one note Johnny's are boring...and we've heard quite enough about Dale and his black eye (I prefer CHip and Dale). This particular dead horse is already pulverized dogmeat........ Sorry folks for wasting your time and DJ's dime...I will try to refrain from further comment on this pointless thread.......... Jon

  For the win. [smiley=applause.gif] [smiley=applause.gif] [smiley=applause.gif] [smiley=applause.gif] [smiley=applause.gif]

                Potter

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lifer wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 12:46pm:

Thanks for everyone’s interest in this idea.   I’m sorry if I have made any of you uncomfortable.  If my idea is too far out there for you, I understand.   What I would like is a discussion regarding the merits and shortcomings of my postulate.  Could this be possible?  Does anyone else find it fits their symptoms?  My made up title is just a way to identify this particular idea, which fits my symptoms.   Whether my idea pans out or not, we will still be haunted.  We will still have cluster headaches, whether it’s primary or secondary.   Even if what I claim is found true, no one will help.  There is no approved surgery for my suspected cause.  No one is trained to perform it.  You’re likely to be made worse in an attempt to fix it.  I find no comfort in that.  It’s just our situation.   I have found ways to comfort my nerves, reduce my pain, reduce my dysfunction, and reduce my attacks.  This may not be your thing.  That’s okay.  I’m totally convinced it’s mine.   I moved forward when I stopped focusing on the pain, and started paying attention to my dysfunction.  The pain is unreliable.  It can be too much and overwhelm you, or go numb and trick you.  The dysfunction is a lot easier to discern and provides a reliable indication of nerve distress.   I consider nasal stuffiness to occur between open and plugged.   To clear up any confusion, I suggest that you stay away from a chiropractor for this condition.  However, I have noticed we tend to hold our heads.  Head holding is good, especially in the right spots.   I would hold my head for hours.  Now, I can use gravity to hold it instead.   I realize I use lots of medical terms about our medical condition.  It’s just how I think about it.  If my words are giving any of you trouble, please have me try explaining myself a different way.  I am trying my best to clearly express this idea.     This thread was started to discuss a particular possible cause, Dale’s Black Eye palsy.  If you’re still interested in exploring this, thank you.

You use gravity to hold your head says it all.

               Potter

OP didn't deserve that much bashing.

Scorpion wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 3:14pm:

OP didn't deserve that much bashing.

  Nor do we need his adamant bullshit.

            Potter

wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 4:10pm:

Scorpion wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 3:14pm: OP didn't deserve that much bashing.   Nor do we need his adamant bullshit.             Potter

Speak for yourself, Potter, but don't speak for me. I'll read whatever I please.

AussieBrian wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 5:31pm:

wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 4:10pm: Scorpion wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 3:14pm: OP didn't deserve that much bashing.   Nor do we need his adamant bullshit.             Potter Speak for yourself, Potter, but don't speak for me. I'll read whatever I please.

Knock yourself out.  Ten minutes of your life you'll never get back.

            Potter

Scorpion wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 3:14pm:

OP didn't deserve that much bashing.

I thought I was beyond flabbergasted.....and had only guessed this.....

"My made up title is just a way to identify this particular idea, which fits my symptoms."


Holy shit....READ THAT!  Do you want to base ANY of your actions re CH on a thought process
like that!?  I stand by my so-called "bashing".................

.

Thanks everyone for all your interest.

Lifer wrote, Head Holding
  We’ve all done it at times.  How many times have you heard, “Are you okay?”?   I had a hard time understanding this compulsion of mine.
  Only now, armed with this new knowledge, I want to open my bad orbit.
  Most of us press the temple.  Pressing the temple acts to open the orbit.  We have figured out how to help ourselves.   
  Head holding helps to reduce one of the four orbit floor stressors.  The load of the forehead compresses the bone, and with it the nerves.  I feel we hold our heads to help support this load and maintain an ‘open’ orbit.
  A problem I have is being able to hold my head manually with a constant force.  Sometimes I push too hard, other times, not enough.  I have found the steady constant force of gravity to be much more soothing.
  Moving the head’s center of gravity will change the skull’s stress distribution.  Two beneficial movements for me are:  lift the nose slightly, until the head is just past balanced on the neck, and second, tilt the head slightly to the good side.  If it’s bad, I do both.  This is letting gravity do the work for me; gravity is ‘holding’ my head.  My earlier 'pillow talk' is also gravity helping/holding.
  I am still searching for a comfortable way to look directly down at the ground.  This posture adds the weight of the rearhead to the weight of the forehead, and cantilevers it out over the orbit.  I manually hold my head to look directly down.
  Dynamic loading is the worst for me.  That is, when my head moves around.  The moving load produces sudden spikes of force.  These load spikes cause me the greatest nerve distress, and thus build up distress the fastest.  I am very careful how I hold my head while I’m moving.
  Why do you think we hold our heads?  Sure, because of the pain, but I think there’s more to it than that.  I feel compelled to hold my head even before the pain begins and after it is gone.  This need to support the forehead explains to me why I am so compelled to hold my head.

I've never read so much bullshit in all my days as a clusterhead! If I had as many $$$$$$$$$$$$$ as I've spent holding my head, pushing and shoving my temple, groaning in agony, whilst trying to abort the beast, I would be a rich man now.

Anyways, time for me to go and wrap myself head to toe in bubble wrap to stop those nerves moving about and keep the beast at bay.

Hoppy

Every now and then I look to see if there are any new advances for cluster headache treatments.

I have offered my treatment of ketogenics, intermittent fasting, exercise and some meditation. I had a setback from a red meat allergy due to a tick bite, so I had to relearn my diet and I am less ketogenic now. Minus the fact that I get serotonin storms and  shadows during a cycle, it has been 100% effective for me. I feel like a million bucks using my treatment. It has worked for me for years. Get's bashed every time I bring it up.

I believe that if we read with the understanding that sometimes CHers haven't slept a night for weeks or even months. They can develop chemical imbalances that come and go. They are human, and may be having a bad day. There are a lot of things that effect us. Then maybe a little kindness is due to your brother or sister. No bigger waste of time and life than spending it angry and hurting others. I would use that energy to spend time with your friends and enjoy life a little.

Every now and then I look to see if there are any new advances for cluster headache treatments.

Me too...

I have offered my treatment of ketogenics, intermittent fasting, exercise and some meditation. I had a setback from a red meat allergy due to a tick bite, so I had to relearn my diet and I am less ketogenic now. Minus the fact that I get serotonin storms and  shadows during a cycle, it has been 100% effective for me. I feel like a million bucks using my treatment. It has worked for me for years. Get's bashed every time I bring it up.

Good for you...red meat allergy...et al...some of us been there....re ch....??????


I believe that if we read with the understanding that sometimes CHers haven't slept a night for weeks or even months. They can develop chemical imbalances that come and go. They are human, and may be having a bad day. There are a lot of things that effect us. Then maybe a little kindness is due to your brother or sister. No bigger waste of time and life than spending it angry and hurting others. I would use that energy to spend time with your friends and enjoy life a little.

Now THAT is a cogent, concise and reasoned argument....placed in the WRONG place. The whole damn purpose of this site is to help fellow bros and sis fight this demon...nobody else understands.
BUT...it means that we must be diligent in our considerations.... and CAUTIOUS re some of the otherworldly opinions expressed on what seems like a constant basis. Me?...well...after 30+ yrs I can smell bullshit without a second thought......like THIS thread. Some new folks may NOT...I worry about them...How about YOU!?

.

  Thank you for hanging in there through all of this.  You’re already a champion and survivor.  We’ll make it.

To paraphrase the OP.   Some folks are triggered by heat and others by cold.

Some abort with cold and others with heat.

              Potter

wrote on Jan 11^th, 2017 at 2:49pm:

To paraphrase the OP.   Some folks are triggered by heat and others by cold. Some abort with cold and others with heat.               Potter

  No, not at all.  I'm expressing how my dysfunction affects me, in regard to temperature.
  Triggers are a separate issue.  Although, triggers are affected by temperature.
  Heat and cold are NOT busters.  They help us maintain appropriate temperature.

Please feel free to express your own ideas.

You need to learn the lingo grasshopper.  Abort and bust are not the same.

               Potter

.

  Let me know if you want more.

wrote on Jan 11^th, 2017 at 3:15pm:

You need to learn the lingo grasshopper.  Abort and bust are not the same.                Potter

What's the difference?

You abort an individual attack and you bust a CH series of attacks.  Kinda like abortives and preventatives.

lifer wrote on Jan 12^th, 2017 at 1:42pm:

Let me know if you want more.

   Nope.

           Potter

Quote:

Good for you...red meat allergy...et al...some of us been there....re ch....??????

The ketogenic diet is my preventive.
The fasting is to bust a cycle. (cycles are shadows and serotonin only since keto)
The exercise (cardio) is to abort an attack. (haven't needed this since keto)
The meditation is for all three and me.

Because red meat is a big part of a standard keto diet, I must stay true to what I say.
So I offer the fact that red meat is not included.

I'll keep reading...

.

  Take it easy on that noggin.


.

TIL OP is scorpion is troll

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Page 3

Let's try to stay on topic.

Risk Factors
  Individuals with risk taking behavior engage in activities which put them at a greater chance of head trauma.  Any head trauma resulting in injury to the orbit floor may cause this palsy, commonly occurring during youth.  Injuries resulting from a black eye are suspect, as well as, infants dropped upside down on the front of the head.  Typically unilateral, rarely, a severe or repeated trauma may result in bilateral palsy.
  Age 40+.  With age, comes the solidifying of the skull.  This hardens and ‘roughens’ the small orbit floor path.
  Specific congenital defects, affecting this pathway, may also cause or predispose this palsy.



Internal Nasal Valve / Infraorbital
  The internal nasal valve is located just inside the nose.  In mammals the resting state of the valve is closed.  It requires a signal to dilate.  In humans, the infraorbital nerve supplies a constant background signal for dilation.  Breathing thru the nose will induce an additional signal that opens the valve further.  The diving reflex may also interrupt this nerve signal.
  Constriction of the valve also disrupts the normal nasal air flow resistance, inducing a feedback loop similar to nasal cycle palsy.


Sinus / Infraorbital
  It just has to be a sinus issue!  Well, kind of.  The Infraorbital nerve supplies the sinus.  When this part of the nerve suffers compression, the cilia and mucus cells that clear and clean the sinus are weak or paralyzed.  Furthermore, the mucus cell dysfunction limits their ability to activate the limbic system.   As insulting contamination accumulates and increases, so does infection.  This is often accompanied by nasal valve collapse and tonsil palsy.  The collapsed valve reduces the ventilation of fresh air and blocks the discharge of liquid drainage, thus increasing the chance of a sinus infection even further.  Tonsil palsy may occur, slowing infection clearing.  Once an infections is established, total recovery is difficult.  The infection, inflammation, and sinus swelling increase the nerve compression and sinus palsy.  See ‘Nasal Cycle’.

lifer wrote on Jan 17^th, 2017 at 10:35am:

. Page 3 Let's try to stay on topic. Risk Factors   Individuals with risk taking behavior engage in activities which put them at a greater chance of head trauma.  Any head trauma resulting in injury to the orbit floor may cause this palsy, commonly occurring during youth.  Injuries resulting from a black eye are suspect, as well as, infants dropped upside down on the front of the head.  Typically unilateral, rarely, a severe or repeated trauma may result in bilateral palsy.   Age 40+.  With age, comes the solidifying of the skull.  This hardens and ‘roughens’ the small orbit floor path.   Specific congenital defects, affecting this pathway, may also cause or predispose this palsy.

Yep and you're a perfect example.  This is drivel.

           Potter

wrote on Jan 17^th, 2017 at 11:39am:

lifer wrote on Jan 17th, 2017 at 10:35am: . Page 3 Let's try to stay on topic. Risk Factors   Individuals with risk taking behavior engage in activities which put them at a greater chance of head trauma.  Any head trauma resulting in injury to the orbit floor may cause this palsy, commonly occurring during youth.  Injuries resulting from a black eye are suspect, as well as, infants dropped upside down on the front of the head.  Typically unilateral, rarely, a severe or repeated trauma may result in bilateral palsy.   Age 40+.  With age, comes the solidifying of the skull.  This hardens and ‘roughens’ the small orbit floor path.   Specific congenital defects, affecting this pathway, may also cause or predispose this palsy. Yep and you're a perfect example.  This is drivel.            Potter

Perhaps you should stop reading...

CDog wrote on Jan 17^th, 2017 at 2:51pm:

wrote on Jan 17th, 2017 at 11:39am: lifer wrote on Jan 17th, 2017 at 10:35am: . Page 3 Let's try to stay on topic. Risk Factors   Individuals with risk taking behavior engage in activities which put them at a greater chance of head trauma.  Any head trauma resulting in injury to the orbit floor may cause this palsy, commonly occurring during youth.  Injuries resulting from a black eye are suspect, as well as, infants dropped upside down on the front of the head.  Typically unilateral, rarely, a severe or repeated trauma may result in bilateral palsy.   Age 40+.  With age, comes the solidifying of the skull.  This hardens and ‘roughens’ the small orbit floor path.   Specific congenital defects, affecting this pathway, may also cause or predispose this palsy. Yep and you're a perfect example.  This is drivel.            Potter Perhaps you should stop reading...

I wouldn't count on it as long as the op keeps posting misinformation.

            Potter

  Wow!  Thanks for the link Feisty.  I am surprised to read this.  This describes how we at times have a one hour heart rate rhythm delay.  It goes on to note a lack of pulse rate variability.  I at times have chest pain during and after attacks.  Often, my pulse tends to tick about the same.
  Is this something like when I feel a sense of ‘temperature delay’?  That sounds similar.
  How do we manage our heart rate rhythm an hour in the future?


Clin Auton Res. 1993 Oct;3(5):291-8.
Imbalance of heart rate regulation in cluster headache as based on continuous 24-h recordings.
Micieli G1, Cavallini A, Bosone D, Tassorelli C, Barzizza F, Rossi F, Nappi G.
Author information
Abstract
An altered autonomic balance is considered to be a pathogenetic factor in cluster headache syndrome, although there is varying data on sympathetic and/or parasympathetic activation during attacks and/or attack-free intervals. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the day/night pattern of heart rate during the active and remission phases of cluster headache. In addition, the relationship between heart rate changes and the site of pain was investigated to determine if an autonomic imbalance was related to the lateralization of pain. Thirty-nine patients (34 with primary episodic cluster headache and five with primary chronic cluster headache and 30 healthy controls underwent 24-h Holter ECG recording. Nine cluster headache patients were monitored during both phases of the disease. The data obtained confirmed the existence of a disordered chrono-organization in cluster headache (phase-shift of approximately 1 h of heart rate rhythm during the cluster period) together with a low heart rate variability and a higher occurrence of arrhythmias in cluster headache patients with right-sided pain. Differences were also observed in the cluster headache patients when headache free, excluding the pain itself as a reason for the abnormality. The chronobiological data point out a transient rhythmic dysfunction, while heart rate variability changes, mostly related either to the phase of the disease or to the site of pain, probably reflects a central, site-related, dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system in cluster headache.


Good luck out there!  Keep up the good fight.

Maybe take a little time and get educated.

           Potter

---

More.

Headaches, Cluster and Otherwise: A Brief History
Headaches are one of mankind's oldest, most richly-documented diseases. The first description of headache comes by way of the Mesopotamians, in 4,000 B.C. The Mesopotamians, who occupied what is now modern-day Iraq, attributed the disease to "Tiu", an evil spirit who attacked his victims' heads [1]. Later, in 3,000 B.C., a Sumerian poet provided the first description of the "aura" associated with migraine:

     The sick eyed says not 'I am sick eyed.'
     The sick-headed (says) not, 'I am sick headed.'
     
The famous Greek physician Hippocrates later offered a more complete description of migraine with aura:
"Most of the time he seemed to see something shining before him like a light, usually in part of the right eye, at the end of a movement, a violent pain supervened in the right temple, then in all the head and neck... vomiting when it became possible, was able to divert the pain and render it more moderate."
For Hippocrates, migraine was the result in the change of the "four humors": blood, phlegm, black bile and yellow bile. Yellow bile in particular, an excessive build-up thereof, was what he believed triggered a headache.
     Aretaeus of Cappodocia, a Greco-Roman medical scholar writing in the first century AD, created the first recorded classification system for headaches [2]. Acute, short-lasting headaches he called "cephalalgia"; longer-lasting chronic headaches he called "cephalea"; and one-sided paroxysmal headaches he called "heterocrania". About cephalalgia sufferers (migraineurs) he wrote: "They flee the light, the darkness soothes their disease; nor can they bear readily to look upon or hear anything disagreeable; their sense of smell is vitiated. Neither does anything agreeable to smell delight them, and they also have an aversion to fetid things; the patients, moreover, are weary of life, and wish to die..."
     A later Roman physician/scholar, Cladius Galen (A.D. 131 to 201), proposed that headache was the result of waste products acting on the brain. Disturbances in other areas of the body, he claimed, lead to the release of liquids or vapors that were harmful to the brain, causing headache. (This theory persisted until World War I when experiments conducted by the Germans in which soldiers were prohibited from defecating for several weeks failed to result in headache.) Galen is also credited with coining the term  "hemicrania" to describe what is now known migraine. From hemicrania, the word became "hemicranium", then later "hemigranea", and then "migranea", "migrainea", and "migrana". The French then adapted "migrana" to "migraine" [1].
     By the Middle Ages, migraine had become recognized as a discrete medical disorder. The treatments of this time were crude, involving hot irons, blood-letting, various herbal nostrums, even witchcraft [3]. However, mention of headache in literature became more common. In Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, Juliet's nurse suffers a headache, likely a migraine, on the eve of her mistress' wedding: "Lord how my head aches! What a head have I! It beats as it would fall in twenty pieces." Headache is also mentioned Othello, when the protagonist, Othello, complains to his wife, Desdemona: "I have a pain upon my forehead here."
     In 1672, English doctor Thomas Willis devised another, more modern, classification system [2]. Headaches, in his view, were divided along the following parameters: 1. within or without the skull; 2. universal or particular; 3. short, continuous, or intermittent; 4, wandering or uncertain; 5. before, behind, or the side; and 6. occasional or habitual [4]. By this time, the condition of migraine had become relatively well known. Famous migraineurs include: Mary Queen of Scotland, Julius Caesar, John Calvin, George Bernard Shaw, Charles Darwin,  Thomas Jefferson, Lewis Carroll, Mark Twain, Arthur Schopenhauer, Sigmund Freud, Anne Frank, John F. Kennedy, Vincent Van Gogh, and Elvis Presley [1, 5].
     The first detailed description of cluster headaches appeared in 1641, courtesy of Dutch physician and anatomist, Nicolas Tulp [6]. Tulp described a patient who "in the beginning of summer season was afflicted with a very severe headache occurring and disappearing daily at fixed hours." The headache was said to rarely last "longer than 2 hours without any fever or generalized symptoms," and to reoccur "until the 14th day." Tulp also noted that the patient "lost a great amount of fluid from the nose." This early description would fulfill all but one of the current International Headache Society's criteria for cluster headache.
     Not until over a hundred years later, in 1745, would another Dutch physician, Gerhard van Sweiten, provide the first description of episodic cluster headache: 

A healthy, robust man of middle age was, each day, at the same hour troubled by pain above the orbit of the left eye, where the nerve leaves through the bony frontal opening; after a short time the left eye began to redden and tears to flow; then he felt as if his eye was protruding from its orbit with so much pain that he became mad. After a few hours all this evil ceased and nothing in the eye appeared at all changed. I ordered blood to be let, gave antiphlogistic purgatives, I frequently applied cupping to the neck, vesicant adhesives, etc. but all in vain. But in order to understand this miraculous illness, I went to him at the time when he knew the pain would return, and I saw all the symptoms he remembered; in the carpal pulse however I found nothing changed. The patient reminded me, whilst I sat with him, that in the medial canthus of the eye he felt a large pulsation: I applied the apex of my little finger to the artery, which goes around the medial canthus of the eye, then with the other hand explored the carpal pulse; and thus I manifestly perceived how the artery in the canthus of the eye was pulsing more rapidly, and strongly than it naturally does. I therefore believed that there was a fever, but a tropical one; and I gave Peruvian bark and with luck cured it; and from this case I later learned to use similar remedies." [7].

     The 1800s saw a series of papers written about syndromes that may or may not have been cluster headache. In 1822, British physician Benjamin Hutchinson, reviewing 28 case histories of patients with Tic Douloureux (a condition similar to cluster headache), noted that in many instances, the patients' pain was described as "periodical, recurring once in 24 hours; often remaining for several hours at a time, and then suddenly departing." Hutchinson suggested that these were instead cases of "hemicrania"; later researchers speculated that he had in fact stumbled upon some of the earliest descriptions of cluster headaches, notwithstanding the scant evidence afforded them [8]. University of Berlin Professor Moritz Heinric Romberg, in his 1840 book, A Manual of Nervous Diseases of Man, described a cluster headache-like condition known as "Ciliary Neuralgia":
Painful sensations in the eye, which are generally confined to one side, and are excited or increased by rays of light and by visual efforts, are the characteristic symptoms of this affection. In the higher degrees photophobia is present; this is therefore the term generally applied to the affection. The patient avoids solar and artificial light, as the bulb of the eye becomes painful when exposed to their influence, and the eyelids contract painfully. The pupil is contracted. The pain not unfrequently [sic] extends over the head and face. The eye generally weeps and becomes red. These symptoms occur in paroxysm, of a uniform or irregular character, and isolated or combined with facial neuralgia and hemicrania." [Ibid]
     In 1878, Albert Eulenburg, Professor of Neurology at the University of Greifswold, described painful headache-like attacks that were accompanied with tearing, eye-redness, constricted pupil, and drooping eyelid--classic cluster headache autonomic symptoms. These attacks, which he called "hemicrania angioparalytica" or "neuroparalytica", lasted anywhere from a few hours to half a day, with "alternating remissions and exacerbations." The fact that they lasted so long, however, suggests something called "hemicrania continua", a close cluster headache relative [Ibid]. 
     R. Bing in 1912 wrote of a disease that included a burning sensation in the face, autonomic features, and a recurring pattern, calling it erythroprosopalgia. (Erythro (red) + prosopon (face) + algia (pain)). And in 1925, French physicians Vallery-Radot and Blamontier described a  38-year old female with severe, recurrent right-sided headache with lacrimation (tearing) and rhinorrhea (runny nose). Neither of these, however, could be conclusively deemed cluster headache due to insufficient evidence [Ibid].
     But in 1926, London neurologist Wilfred Harris did provide such a conclusive description, in fact several of them. In one account, he describes "A young man of 25, when aged 19 began to suffer from daily attacks, for three or four weeks every year, of severe pain in the back of the right eyeball and forehead, with lachrymation [sic] and reddening of the eye; this would last for an hour or two, no nausea, but voracious appetite accompanying the neuralgia. During the last two years he had had similar attacks of pain behind the left eyeball, and they would then transfer and become severe on the right side." [9]. This account is the first to meet the current International Headache Society's criteria for cluster headache, including recurrent pattern, autonomic symptoms, and pain around/behind the eye. In another account, Harris writes: "A man, age 47, had his first attack of neuralgia in January 1917, when in the trenches in front of Beaumont Hamel. The pain struck him suddenly across the left temple and forehead, and lasted for three-quarters of an hour, like an 'electric battery', while his face became flushed and he felt faint. The neuralgia recurred thrice daily, at about eight hour intervals for six weeks, and then disappeared entirely for two years...." Harris first called these cases "periodic migrainous neuralgia" and then later "ciliary neuralgia." He is now widely-regarded as providing the first full-length description of cluster headache.
     The first American physician to report on cluster headaches was Walter Dandy of Johns Hopkins. In 1931, Dandy described a 50-year old man who since the age of 17 had experienced recurrent pain-attacks in the eye and the upper jaw area. These attacks, lasting around 30 minutes each and occurring up to 6 times daily, were accompanied by drooping eyelid, facial sweating, runny nose, and slowed heart rate. Dandy himself, however, was unaware that these were cluster headache, and instead called them migraine [8].
     It was another American neurologist, Bayard Taylor Horton, who would be the first to propose a theory of pathogenesis for cluster headache. Horton attributed the disorder to a unique form of histamine sensitivity, and used histaminic desensitization therapy to treat a number of refractory patients [10]. In a 1939 paper, he writes, "Our patients were disabled by the disorder and suffered from bouts of pain from two to twenty times a week. They had found no relief from the usual methods of treatment. Their pain was so severe that several of them had to be constantly watched for fear of suicide. Most of them were willing to submit to any operation which might bring relief." [11]. It was from this paper that the disease's nickname, "Suicide Headaches", was coined. Horton called this condition alternately "erythromelalgia of the head", "histaminic cephalgia" or simply, "cephalalgia." Later researchers would call it "Horton's headache" or "Horton's Syndrome" in his honor. Along with his associates MacLean and Craig, Horton was the first to point out that attacks can be triggered by alcoholic beverages [8].
              Dr. Charles Kunkle, writing with Pfeiffer, Wilholt, and Hamrick for the North Carolina Medical Journal in 1954, was the first to use the term "cluster headaches." A few years later, Drs Friedman and Mikropoulos from the Headache Unit of the Montefiore Hospital in New York published an article in the journal Neurology called "Cluster Headaches", after which the term was accepted by the AD HOC Committee on Classification of Headache [Ibid]. Dr. Kunkle was also one of the first to point out the periodicity of cluster headaches, their tendency to occur in regular, metronomic "clusters" [6].
     Kunkle, along with Swedish neurologist Karl-Axel Ekbom, Lee Kudrow, Ninan Mathew, Ottar Sjaastad and others, are the pioneers of the early modern cluster headache research period. Ekbom was the first to employ lithium to treat the disease [12]. He was also the first to distinguish between episodic and chronic cluster headache, and the latter from chronic cluster headache unremitting from outset and chronic cluster headache that evolves from episodic [13]. Kudrow, Mathew, Sjaastad and others made similar contributions by advancing research ideas, conducting studies, and authoring papers and books [14].
     Today, thanks to the introduction of headache journals, national and international headache societies, headache symposiums, citizen advocacy and support groups, as well as advances in imaging and testing technologies, there is a deep body of headache-related knowledge to draw from. We've come a long way from the days of invoking "evil spirits" or the "four humors" to explain headache pathology. And yet, as a distinct medical condition, cluster headache remains largely misunderstood, in some cases even by neurologists themselves. As I will show in subsequent chapters, cluster headache is often misdiagnosed and mistreated. For instance, many primary physicians and neurologists are ignorant of the benefits of oxygen therapy, notwithstanding the International Headache Society's recommendation that it be used as an abortive treatment [15]. There is also enormous resistance to alternative therapies such as LSD and psilocybin, therapies that have shown unparalleled prophylactic potential. If it is true that the ultimate purpose of medical research is the alleviation or mitigation of pain, the future of cluster headache research must be one that challenges cultural and bureaucratic stigmas. It must be one that takes an "all-of-the-above" approach, looking outside of the box, embracing alternatives, resisting the imperatives of Big Pharma. It must labor not only in the service of increasing the knowledge-base of cluster headaches, but in also in raising awareness about a disease that is far too often overlooked and underappreciated. 

More.

---

  I am still waiting to hear your specific idea as to the cause of our headaches.

  Shout out to Potter!  Thanks for keeping me at the top of the list.  It makes it a lot easier for everyone to find my information.

  Druggies go elsewhere.

  Thanks Linda for calling me on that.  I spoke out of line.  I apologize to the people doing good work at ClusterBusters.  I was frustrated, and wrongly lumped everyone together.
  You are right, I have no personal experience.  Their ideas sound odd to me, just as mine must to some of you.
  I feel we need to understand the cause of our headaches to treat our headaches appropriately. 
 
   

"Druggies please stay at the Clusterbusters. "

O.K. that does it!!!!!!!  >:(

Clusterbusters and the people there who work tirelessly for the CH community are NOT druggies. Have you any clue to how many people that organization have helped become pain-free???  This organization is backed and supported by Physicians and senators.

I have had a good laugh or two by reading a bunch of nonsense from you, but your ignorance regarding Clusterbusters and what they do, shows me that you don't have any idea of what you're talking about.

dauber???

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edit:
Also to be clear, I don't agree with OP at all.
That doesn't mean that I need to choke him out.
Or troll with him either.

[smiley=troll.gif]


To quote a certain troll...."let's stay on topic"....which "it" is unable to....bwaaaaaa....anyway

There are several types of trolls....this one is an attention whor*.....if you have wasted yur time
reading "its" drivel..... you will note several times "it" admitted as much...and to quote Maya Angelou: "When someone shows you who they are...believe them...the FIRST time".

Typically these types can't get enough...and, as time goes by, tend to ramp up incoherent word
masturbation to include insults...hence: "druggies at clusterbusters". The irony here does provide
a slight bit of amusement as "it" IS a MEMBER of clusterbusters.org...having posted the same initial
horseshit there.... at the same time as here.......

If you want this bridge basement dweller to go away...STOP FEEDING "it"!!!

[smiley=troll.gif] [smiley=troll.gif] [smiley=troll.gif]

"choke OP out?" TIL cris cyborg uses a ketogenic diet and is a Kenny Chesney wannabe. "He had a lot to say, he had a lot of nothing to say , I'm gonna miss him'

I want more! I enjoy reading some science fiction to pass the time of day  :)

Cheers Hoppy 

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That's a cute little video... dauber