I am reading and looking up on the relationship between CH, REM sleep and dreams relating to REM and I have found quite a few interesting facts. I am still trying to gather more information and putting them all together and I will post what I find here a bit later.

However, I would like to ask the good people of the Board please about your dreams, and whether they change during the cycle. 95% of dreams occuring in REM and CH tends to happen in REM. Do you know that REM occur during waking hours too ? Yes they do.

During REM sleep, quite a few vascular and neurological events occur which enable dreams. When these events go wrong, the ability to dream is affected. These same abnormalities can also trigger CH. Therefore by noting the frequency of dreams, the quality of the dreams and any changes to the dreams in CH cycle ... one get an indication of how abnormal REMs are which will show how Ch is affected.

I hope to get as many answers as possible and will post the results with my other findings here later. It will make very interesting read indeed.

So please if you can, answer these questions below :

1- Do you normally dream ?
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ?

Thank you very much everyone  :)

Annette

Annette, Sorry, I never remember dreaming. I never have and that hasn't changed since my two years of ch. Thanks for your research. Cathy

it is funny you ask because i cant remember dreams in cycle, but i dream often when not in cycle. funny huh. coach bill

1-yes I do dream and have all my life
2-about the same when wasnt hurting
3-dreams have always been mild intill.....
4-chronic and they are vivid,wild,& insane
5-see 2
6- I have been sleeping waking or walking a lot for the past 2 years but then again I am on some pretty heavy meds too
Terry

Here you go:

1- Do you normally dream ? Yes
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? The same in or out of cycle
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? Not that I've noticed
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? I'm episodic
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?  The same
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? No

Good luck with the data Annette.

-Dennis-

1- Do you normally dream ?  -  infrequently, maybe a couple of times a month
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?  - none during a cycle
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?  -  no dreams in cycle
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?  -  episodic and quite happy about that, as opposed to chronic
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? - back to normal after a cycle, sometimes out but never in cycle
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? - no, never in or out of cycle

hope this helps.
Doug

PS:  when I was using the nicotine patches to quit smoking, (left them on all night to avid the morning craving), I had the most wild and vivid dreams every night.
disrupted my sleep, that's while I quit the patches and went back to smoking.    Yea, that's my story. ;-)

Thank you to everyone who has answered, please keep the answers coming  :)

So far, what has been posted here seems to agree with what I have observed in my husband and in a few CHers I have talked to.

1- CHers may not dream at all and have been so all of their lives ( which is unusual )
2- CHers tend to dream less during cycles.
3- The characteristics of the dream change during cycle compared to when out of cycle.
4- CHers may sleep walk during cycle.

Which are all indication of abnormality in REM.

Please keep the answers coming, if you dont want to post it publically you can PM or email me.

Thank you very much.

Annette

wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

1- Do you normally dream ?   Yes 2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?  Same 3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?  Same 4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?  No, always frequent & vivid 5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? Same 6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ?  Have always sleep walked I am one who has REM mode while awake. I may not count in your poll as I have additional types of headaches that may contribute to that.

Annette, Peter May did a fascinationg series of articles on this very subject. They're in the OUCH newsletters, starting in 2006, I think.

1- Do you normally dream ? - Yes, all the time
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? - N/A chronic, but same if we're talking cycles within chronicity - my dreams are always pretty constant
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? - N/A chronic, dreams seem unchanged throughout times when i have more or less CH's or cycling within chronic
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? - No, always been frequent and vivid
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? N/A, chronic
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? Never have, with or without CH

Have fun!
Carrie :)

P.S. I also have different headache types as well, so may not be a true litmus of just having CH alone.

1- Do you normally dream ?  Often.
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?I almost never dream when I'm in cycle.
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?I dream less vividly, if at all.
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?N/A
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?Much more.
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ?To my knowledge, I've never sleepwalked at all.

1- Do you normally dream ?  yes
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? yes i dream while in cycle
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? seemed more vivid but thought it was due to meds- had more nightmares while in cycle especially while taking indomethicin
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? n/a
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? same
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? no and only did one time as a kid when i had a virus of some sort

i wake up with nightmares, and a bad headache, there vary vivid , when i have my headache, but i can't remember them after i get some more sleep

This is interesting.....

Everyone dreams, but I very seldom remember dreaming (unless I have a lot of B6 in me). Never have and I'm chronic and nothing has changed. And never have sleep walked.

Hugs BD

1- Do you normally dream ?  Yes
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? Less
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? I don't think I actually dream during a cycle, because I just don't let myself go to sleep.
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? n/a
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?  For the first few weeks out of cycle, it seems like I dream more and they are more vivid.  But I'm not positive.  Maybe it is because I have missed so much sleep.
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? Nope

1- Do you normally dream ? yes
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? same
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? same
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? n/a
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? same
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? no


Very interesting topic, Annette. Though I wonder if the inability to recall dreams necessarily implies an inability to dream. On top of that, an imbalance in chemicals involved in memory creation (such as seratonin and i believe noradrenaline) during a CH cycle may also be a factor.

Something else that may be pertinent to your questionnaire is whether the headaches occur during sleep. This past cycle I've only been hit during waking hours - having my headache worries only during daytime may also have accounted for my undisturbed sleep and dream patterns.

Qazpur wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 10:49am:

Very interesting topic, Annette. Though I wonder if the inability to recall dreams necessarily implies an inability to dream. On top of that, an imbalance in chemicals involved in memory creation (such as seratonin and i believe noradrenaline) during a CH cycle may also be a factor.

There is a difference between the inability to recall dreams and to be able to dreams.
Even if you cant recall the dreams, in general people are aware whether or not they dream or have had dreams in the past. My husband and 2 other CHers I talked to have NEVER recalled having any dreams at all.

Yes, serotonin, DHEA and melatonin play a crucial role in whether or not we dream in our sleep and they also play a crucial role in those night hits in CHers. I will explain later.


Qazpur wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 10:49am:

Something else that may be pertinent to your questionnaire is whether the headaches occur during sleep. This past cycle I've only been hit during waking hours - having my headache worries only during daytime may also have accounted for my undisturbed sleep and dream patterns.

It is well known at CH hits occur mostly at nights during those REM and I will explain why. Day hits can happen during the awake REMs too. The disturbed sleep you experience may be more linked to the disturbed REMs than you think.

wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 11:05am:

There is a difference between the inability to recall dreams and to be able to dreams. Even if you cant recall the dreams, in general people are aware whether or not they dream or have had dreams in the past. My husband and 2 other CHers I talked to have NEVER recalled having any dreams at all. Yes, serotonin, DHEA and melatonin play a crucial role in whether or not we dream in our sleep and they also play a crucial role in those night hits in CHers. I will explain later.

Point taken. It would be interesting to know if these folks in fact do not experience any REM sleep - I also read somewhere that SSRIs can inhibit REM. From the responses thus far though it does not seem that the inability to dream is that prevalent among CH'ers.


wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 11:05am:

It is well known at CH hits occur mostly at nights during those REM and I will explain why. Day hits can happen during the awake REMs too. The disturbed sleep you experience may be more linked to the disturbed REMs than you think.

My point was rather that all my headaches during a four month cycle were daytime, and that I did not experience any sleep disturbance. Would this imply that only my daytime REM is out of whack?

Qazpur wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 12:28pm:

Point taken. It would be interesting to know if these folks in fact do not experience any REM sleep - I also read somewhere that SSRIs can inhibit REM. From the responses thus far though it does not seem that the inability to dream is that prevalent among CH'ers.

No, the question seems to lie with any abnormality of REM which can affect dreams. Inability to dream, lower frequency of dreams, less vivid or more vivid dreams ... are all just different abnormalities, and all indicate underlying pathology in REMs.

I can say with certainty that my own husband gets much less REM sleep at night during a cycle compared to out of cycle. Yes I stayed up all night several nights to watch him and to make records.


Qazpur wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 12:28pm:

My point was rather that all my headaches during a four month cycle were daytime, and that I did not experience any sleep disturbance. Would this imply that only my daytime REM is out of whack?

Yes, that is possible. Daytime REM are different to night time REM. The activation of the autonomic nervous system is different and the levels of neurotransmitter are different too.

wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

I am reading and looking up on the relationship between CH, REM sleep and dreams relating to REM and I have found quite a few interesting facts. I am still trying to gather more information and putting them all together and I will post what I find here a bit later. However, I would like to ask the good people of the Board please about your dreams, and whether they change during the cycle. 95% of dreams occuring in REM and CH tends to happen in REM. Do you know that REM occur during waking hours too ? Yes they do. During REM sleep, quite a few vascular and neurological events occur which enable dreams. When these events go wrong, the ability to dream is affected. These same abnormalities can also trigger CH. Therefore by noting the frequency of dreams, the quality of the dreams and any changes to the dreams in CH cycle ... one get an indication of how abnormal REMs are which will show how Ch is affected. I hope to get as many answers as possible and will post the results with my other findings here later. It will make very interesting read indeed. So please if you can, answer these questions below : 1- Do you normally dream ? yes 2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? same 3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? nightmares all the time, in or out 4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? epi 5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? same 6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? never sleep walk Thank you very much everyone  :) Annette

edit to add:  oh yeah, I haven't had a night hit in nearly 12 years

Annette,

I have always remembered my dreams every night way more than most people (according to what others have told me).  Basically every night I remember several dreams in detail.  I could have written several books about the dreams I have had (not that anyone would want to read them :) )  Point being I would say I dream excessively.
My Dream are normally quite vivid.  During cycle, here is the thing, I have said this on here before--yes I will be dreaming when the CH hits.  The catch is that I have noted that I will also be thinking (you know that internal train of thought we have while awake) yes, thinking about the dream while actively having the dream (THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME OUT OF CYCLE AND IS ABNORMAL) and then AT THAT point the pain hits.  To me, this is a symptom of confusion in sleep cycles.  The mind is arguing with itself saying I am dreaming.  The other part is saying, no I am awake and thinking.  But yet they are happening simultaneously.  I don't know if I am the only one who has observed this--if so it may be because I normally do remember dreams or whatnot.  I am sorry if this sounds confusing.  I think yes CH could very well be a kind of sleep disorder (I've said that on here before).  Good luck with your research!!!

Layla328 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 8:30pm:

Annette, I have always remembered my dreams every night way more than most people (according to what others have told me).  Basically every night I remember several dreams in detail.  I could have written several books about the dreams I have had (not that anyone would want to read them :) )  Point being I would say I dream excessively. My Dream are normally quite vivid.  During cycle, here is the thing, I have said this on here before--yes I will be dreaming when the CH hits.  The catch is that I have noted that I will also be thinking (you know that internal train of thought we have while awake) yes, thinking about the dream while actively having the dream (THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME OUT OF CYCLE AND IS ABNORMAL) and then AT THAT point the pain hits.  To me, this is a symptom of confusion in sleep cycles.  The mind is arguing with itself saying I am dreaming.  The other part is saying, no I am awake and thinking.  But yet they are happening simultaneously.  I don't know if I am the only one who has observed this--if so it may be because I normally do remember dreams or whatnot.  I am sorry if this sounds confusing.  I think yes CH could very well be a kind of sleep disorder (I've said that on here before).  Good luck with your research!!!

Holy cow!

Layla328 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 8:30pm:

Annette, I have always remembered my dreams every night way more than most people (according to what others have told me).  Basically every night I remember several dreams in detail.  I could have written several books about the dreams I have had (not that anyone would want to read them :) )  Point being I would say I dream excessively. My Dream are normally quite vivid.  During cycle, here is the thing, I have said this on here before--yes I will be dreaming when the CH hits.  The catch is that I have noted that I will also be thinking (you know that internal train of thought we have while awake) yes, thinking about the dream while actively having the dream (THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME OUT OF CYCLE AND IS ABNORMAL) and then AT THAT point the pain hits.  To me, this is a symptom of confusion in sleep cycles.  The mind is arguing with itself saying I am dreaming.  The other part is saying, no I am awake and thinking.  But yet they are happening simultaneously.  I don't know if I am the only one who has observed this--if so it may be because I normally do remember dreams or whatnot.  I am sorry if this sounds confusing.  I think yes CH could very well be a kind of sleep disorder (I've said that on here before).  Good luck with your research!!!

I believe what you are describing is lucid dreaming, a real phenomenon that some people experience and its not at all abnormal.

Lucid dreaming is the ability to be awake and alert enough during a dream to become aware that one is dreaming. Its a normal natural phenomenon in some people. The fact that you do that in cycle and not out of cycle is further proof that some fairly profound changes occur in the persons REM while in cycle.

Google lucid dreaming and read up on it if you wish, and thanks for the contribution to the thread.

I thought I might get a Holy Cow after that post!

Annette, I am going to google lucid dreaming.  My guess is you are absolutely right.  And when I begin that lucid dreaming it often triggers the CH pain.  Many times I remember this.  Other headaches have just come on while sleeping and I am not sure what was going on at the time of the onset.

Also many years ago I did sleep walk once and yes it was during a CH cycle that was 13 years ago it only happened once.

I just googled it under Wikipedia--yep that kind of thing used to happen to me frequently.  Still does but not as frequently since I hit my 30's.  

Edited to say that one interesting thing they said on Wikipedia about lucid dreaming is a "battle between reason and emotion"--I could see how that could, potentially, at least, hypothetically, give a person a headache.  OK not I will shut my trap.  Interesting to hear what others will say.

1- Do you normally dream ? yes
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?  yes
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?  yes
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?  don't know
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?  first cycle
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ?  no i wake up and head to the O2

Thank you very much everyone  

Annette

1- Do you normally dream?   Yes.

2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?   Same.

3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle?  I believe the same, although; When I am getting a hit in my sleep, I dream about being in pain first on occassion.  Does this happen to anyone else?
 
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed?  N/A

5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle?  Same.

6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle?  Never.

Annette, good for you.  You're doing what I'd like to be doing - finding that common thread.  You may be on to something.  Here's what I can give for answers:

1- Do you normally dream ? Yes
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? Sorry, I'm not sure
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? Again, sorry not sure
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? (not chronic)
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? Sorry again, not sure
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? I've never slept walked

One thing tho, When I quit smoking for 3 months, I was taking chantix.  Ask anyone and they'll tell you about the change in dreams and how vivid they are.  Anyway, I was pretty much PF for those months.  But before we assume chantix is the cure, when I restarted smoking, I was still taking a half dose of chantix (I was in denial).  But the CHs did start back up.  Plus the change in dreams that is caused by chantix diminishes over time.

But I thought that experience might help you.

Be PF

Brett

Oops, I forgot to mention something Annette.  I do notice that I don't remember dreaming before my nightly hit.  But after getting up, taking a Maxalt and possibly a Soma, I go back to bed.  If I don't get hit again, I remember dreaming.

I read somewhere that CHs commonly occur just as REM sleep starts.  Maybe that's why I don't remember dreams before a hit.

Brett

1- Do you normally dream ? Yes.

2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle? Less, because I sleep less, unless melatonin is working then it's the same.

3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? The same.

4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? N/A

5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? More.

6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? No, but I used to when I was younger before CH.

I think the REM-apnea connection makes the most sense. Mirtazapine has been separately shown to treat both apnea and CH, and it acts on the serotonin 2 and 3 receptors and histamine.

wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

1- Do you normally dream ?

Yes, I get very vivid dreams and I often remember them. Just yesterday I remember my alarm clock waking me up in the middle of a dream and I only got hit once that day, while I normally get hit twice. I considered that a bit weird, but in a very nice way. Could be a million other things too, though...Verapamil, stopping Topiramate, going to sleep earlier, Saturn entering the 3rd House of Jupiter... :)


wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?

n/a, I'm chronic. I dream now that I'm able to get sleep because of corticosteroids. I don't remember how much I dreamed before I began taking them, as advised by my neuro. I usually only remember the dreams I have in the morning, and that's when I get hit. The nights were difficult.


wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?

Not really, if I compare them to the time my CH began. Chronic.


wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?

Not really. They're still just as weird and vivid as normally :)


wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?

n/a. Chronic.


wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 7:52am:

6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ?

I have been known to sleep walk (and even sleep fight) when younger. But not anymore. CH doesn't seem to have affected it in any way.

- Rosa

1- Do you normally dream ?
Occasionally

2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?
Much more during a cycle

3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?
Dreams become very vivid.

4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?
n/a

5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?
Much less when cycle is over

6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ?
No

I would also like to note that about 95% of my ha's happen while sleeping. I am usually in a very deep sleep having crazy dreams when they hit. Hope this info helps!

1- Do you normally dream ?
   Very rarely, that i can remember anyway.

2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?
   This is my first cycle and im havin 5+ dreams a night, i wake up after just about everyone.

3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ?
    I still think some of them really happened!!

4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ?
n/a

5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ?
   N/A first time

6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ?
No

Annette,
!. Yes
2 - 5 It doesn't seem to change
6. no sleep walking
I take melatonin and that does not seem to stop the CH at night. It may help with the sleep after the 3 or 4 I have to suffer through.

Thanks for your research.  Jules

I can only remember having a few dreams in my whole life (55 years) and I have never sleep walked.

Mike

1- Do you normally dream ? Rarely
2- Do you dream more or less or not at all during cycle?  No change
3- Do you get more or less vivid dreams during cycle ? No change
4- If you are chronic, have your dreams changed ? No change
5- Do you dream more or less when you go out of cycle ? No change
6- Do you ever sleep walk during cycle ? No