OK, some newbies seem to be having trouble with some of the terms that us old farts use.  Let me try to explain what they are:

Flow Rate:  This is the term used to describe how fast, or how much oxygen is delivered to the mask.  It is rated in “LPM” which means Liter(s) Per Minute.  We need a flow rate of at least 15 LPM.  The flow rate is controlled by the regulator, not the tank or mask.  


Cylinder/tank/bottle:  This is the container that the oxygen comes in.  There are many sizes.  The most common are the "E" tank and the "M" tank.  The "E" tank is the one we use to cart around with us.  It is about 30" tall, 4 1/2" in diameter, and weighs about 8 pounds.  The "M" tank is WAY to big to cart around, but is the one we keep in our house, for the home hits.  It is about 4' tall, 7" in diameter and weighs about 70 pounds.  The two tanks I have mentioned are just two of many sizes, but they are two different types of regulator hook ups, that I will get into later.

You need a doctor's prescription to get medical grade oxygen from a supplier, and have your insurance pay for it.

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The three tall tanks, are “M: tanks, the short one is an “E” tank


Regulator:  This is a device that you connect to your oxygen tank, and then you connect your hose (to your mask).  This is the device that controls the flow rate.  For our use, we want a regulator that can go to AT LEAST 15 LPM, higher is actually better, but 15 LPM is a must!  You do NOT need a prescription in order to buy a regulator.  They can be found on the net, and most of us buy them from eBay.

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The green regulator is for the “E” tank, and the silver one is for the “M” tank.  On the green “E” tank regulator, notice the plastic wrench that I have attached with a piece of chain, that is used to turn the tank on and off.


On the top of each tank there is a stem, or valve, to which you connect your regulator, AND for turning the flow on or off.
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“E” tank stem/valve

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“M” tank stem/valve


Regulator Types:  There are many, MANY different styles and types of regulators.  What we clusterheads are interested in are the ones that have a flow rate of at least 15 LPM.  We also need to know what type of tank it is to go on.  From the pictures above, you can see that there is a big difference in the means to connect the regulator to the tank.
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“E” tank yolk on the regulator (Hand connection – no tools required)


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“M” tank sleeve, or nut to connect to the tank. (Wrench needed)


Non-rebreathing Mask:  This is a mask that fits over your mouth and nose, with a bag attached to collect the oxygen for the next inhalation.  There are little valves that prevent the exhaled air from getting into the bag.  There are also little valves on the outside of the mask that allows the exhaled air to vent, yet closing during an inhalation.
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Standard non-rebreathing mask  (VERY inexpensive)


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Notice the little round white disks on the side of the mask.  These control the exhaled air, and the outside air.  If there is not one on each side, either tape over the other one, or (as I do) place your thumb over the holes, during an inhalation, and then remove the thumb during an exhalation.  If these valves are not present, or in good flexible condition, you will not get the full 100% oxygen that is required.

If you are male, and have facial hair, you may have trouble getting a full seal around the mask.  You may want to just remove the mask, itself, and breathe straight from the plastic valve mechanism.



You may have also heard of a “Demand Valve” system.  This is a totally different system, that is QUITE expensive to get.  It cost anywhere from $300.00 to $800.00 (USD).  Although it is up there in price, to those of us that use them (myself included), we swear by them.   They are the Rolls Royce of systems.  To me, they are worth every penny they cost.  I do not recommend that you buy one of these to start with.  Get the less expensive, and easier to find non-rebreathing mask set up, to see how it will fit in your lifestyle, and if it is going to work for you.

On that note, of it working for you, I am of the school of thought that it will work for 99.9% of the users.  Those that say it does not work for them, are doing one (or more) of the following things wrong:
-      Wrong method or usages
-      Wrong delivery method
-      Wrong flow rate
-      Improper or defective equipment

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Demand valve mask, hose, and regulator


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Demand valve and mask


I hope this has answered some of the questions about the terms that we use.  Please do not be afraid to ask more, if I have not covered all of them.

Chuck

[smiley=bow.gif] [smiley=bow.gif] [smiley=bow.gif] [smiley=bow.gif]

-Dennis-

Bump.............good one Chuck.
thebb

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wrote on Aug 26^th, 2008 at 12:53pm:

Bump.............good one Chuck. thebb

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Great picture!  It brings to mind two more terms that we use: a bubbler/moisturizer and a mouth piece.

Bubbler/moiturizer:  This is a plastic bottle (usually) that is installed at the output of your regulator, that you attach the hose going to your mask.  You fill it with an inch or two of water.  This adds a moisture vapor to the oxygen that you breath in.  Many people complain that their mouth and or nostrils get dry, while sucking oxygen.   The bubbler prevents that from happening.

Mouth Piece:  Some cannot get a good seal around the mask, or just do not like having the mask on their face.  They use the mouth piece, and just breath in through their mouth.  The setup shown in this picture has an extension, and then the mouth piece at the end of it.  It works great.  Before I switched to the demand valve system, the mouth piece was my preferred method of sucking on oxygen.

Any other terms I have forgotten?

Chuck

Great pix and discussion, Chuck. I've tried to attach a couple of my welder's tank and regulator just for comparison, but somehow can't seem to get them to attach. Oh well.

This got a sticky!!  Good Deal!

Oxygen concentrator.......Didn't work for me.
all  the best
thebb

wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2008 at 3:55pm:

Oxygen concentrator.......Didn't work for me.

AH!  Another great term to explain!  Thanks for bringing it up!

Ok, a concentrator ... It is also called a "machine"  or "Oxygen generator"  ... Whatever it is called, it does not work for most of us.

The concentrator takes normal room air, and then purifies it so that it is mostly oxygen that it generates.  You do not have to refill any tanks, or any of those "hassles" ...  Sounds great, huh?  It would be if it worked.  

The key words to what I described is "mostly oxygen".  It starts out at producing about 75 to 80% oxygen, and then after it warms up, it could get as high as 95% oxygen.  Most machines can only produce about 7 LPM of "mostly oxygen".

There are two important reasons that the concentrator is not for us.  We need 100% oxygen, at a minimum of 15 LPM.

Now, I WILL admit, there are a few, who can sometimes get results from this, but not fast enough, and no where near as regularly as with the bottled oxygen.  If your doctor or supplier trys to tell you it is just as good, don't believe them.  Get the bottled oxygen.

Chuck

8-)

Hi Guys..what is the actual term or name for the moisturizer/bubbler.. Im trying to find it online and dont know what to look up. Thanks for any help.

Try humidifier?.
thebb

Just got one from my oxygen supply company.. sweeeeeet.
thanks.

Try some ice in it...now that is cool.
all the best
thebb

Here is another term, home refill
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Thanks Chuck, Bill, and, Sharkboy
the bb

I have been asked where to buy the equipment needed for the oxygen therapy.  There are many places to find them.  You can do a Google search and find anything that you want.  Or, you can go on eBay, and hope for the best.  Be careful, when buying off eBay that you know what you are bidding on/buying.  I was looking at a regulator, on eBay, that I was not familiar with, so I did a Google search, and found out that the regulator on sale, was one that had been recalled by the manufacturer, due to the possibility of exploding, and causing a fire.  This is one of the chances that you take.

I have bought from eBay, and from sites I have found due to an internet search.  I have had good and bad results from each.  The most important thing is to know the equipment that you are buying.  Know the manufacturer, or at least the vendor.  Know the model you are interested in.  It may require a lot of Google searching, but you can find out this information.

Possibly the quickest, easiest and safest route is to buy directly from Life Gas (Linde) at the link provided at the tab on the left side of your screen.  (And, in answer to your question, NO, I am not on Life Gas’s payroll, nor do I own stock in them, nor am I receiving any sort of compensation from them.)  I have bought some things from them, and looked at, and touched (yes, I am a touch and feel sort of buyer) the other items that they have, and they are all top notch.  And, thanks to Life Gas, I have some pictures where I can explain the options available.

First, I am sure that you have heard us talk about using a non-rebreather mask.  The one that Life Gas offers is the best on the market.  Their O2PTMASK^TM is the best you can find, unless you go out and buy the individual components yourself, and assemble it:
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There are several different masks that you can get, and they are also of different sizes:
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The blue masks are more expensive, but they are more rugged, and can take a lot more abuse than the other masks.

Some people do not like having the mask over their face, so they use the mouthpiece:
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If you notice in the above picture, there are arrows on the little yellow strips around the “T” valve assembly.  It is important that you assemble the equipment the way it is shown in that picture, whether you use the mask or the mouthpiece, the arrows MUST be pointed in the way they are shown.

You have heard us talk about getting a regulator that goes to AT LEAST 15 LPM, but higher is better.  Life Gas is presently offering two regulators that go up to 25 LPM.  They may offer more, in the future, once they pass the rigorous testing and approval processes.

One is with the CGA870 connector that you would use on an “E” or “D” tank:
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The other one has the CGA540 connector for the larger “M”, “H”, or “T” tanks:
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If you notice, both regulators have the nipple for your O2PTMASK^TM or non-rebreather mask hose to connect to, and they also have two DISS fittings, so that if now, or in the future want to step up to the Demand Valve System, they would connect there.  Only one is needed, but they offer two, and that is good.  With the two fittings available, you and your buddy could each hook up, with your own masks, at the same time.  Another advantage to them, is if one of them gets banged up and the threads destroyed, you can switch over and use the other DISS fitting, instead.

Now, talking about the Demand Valve System, here are some options that are available to you.  Remember, the Demand Valve System is considerably more expensive than the O2PTMASK^TM or plain non-rebreather mask, but for many of us, it is well worth the cost.  If you are just starting out on oxygen therapy, I would not recommend that you go the expense of the Demand Valve System, first off.  Try the O2PTMASK^TM.  That may be all you need.  If the oxygen treatment is working for you, but you would like a faster abort time, then you might think about the Demand Valve System.

This is the Demand Valve, hose and mask:
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Here is the system hooked up to the DISS fitting on an “E” (or “D”) tank:
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This shows the option of replacing the mask with just the mouthpiece, that some prefer:
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Or, you may wish to go with the mouthpiece, with the “T” valve fitting:
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The advantage of the “T” valve fitting is that you can inhale and exhale through the mouthpiece.  If you just put the mouthpiece directly to the Demand Valve, you have to exhale through your nose, or the side of your mouth, or take the unit out of your mouth to exhale.  It is all in personal preference.

Another option that you can get is the 25’ extension hose, for the Demand Valve System, if you are a pacer, like I am:
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I hope the above gives you a better understanding of what is available, and what options you might want to use.

Good luck in your oxygen therapy!

Chuck

Thank you, SOOOOO much for the info.  Adam just recently got O2 but does not have the mask that I think would make a difference.  He only has the nostril tubing. Any ideas on where I could get a better mask? :-/

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the bb

I happen to have the optimask now but dont seem to get my 3 liter bag to fill up quickly enough to have more than 2 straight breaths.any ideas how to correct this. all seals are pretty tight. my reg goes to 15lpm... :-[

15 lpm is not allowing enough flow from what you say. 3 liter bag will fill in 5 times in one minute. Get a higher flow regulator..25 lpm. Check tank pressure and flow indicator. I use a 1 liter bag. But I'm short. ;)
all the best
the bb

I use a much larger bag.  I like about 1.5 to 2 gallons.  But I have huge lungs.  

With a 15lpm regulator, you can turn on the O2 and let the large bag fill completely......but it will take quite a while.........so you just sit there in excruciating pain longing to suck on the O2 inside the bag.  But once it finally fills up, then you take your first deep breath and hold it for a few seconds and release slowly.  Breathe slow and deep and the 15lpm might be able to keep up.

Or, you can double your LPM so you can start breathing O2 almost immediately.  

Bottom line is that you probably need a much bigger bag, and then follow one of the 2 steps above.

Hope this helps.
B$
 

   I just love oxygen porn.  You just rock Chuck.

            Kinder gentler Potter

Great thread . . . I'm sure is going a long way in helping the newbies get their 02 rigs set up.

Couple of practical hints:

 SAVE & re-use the 0-ring that comes with your regulator for the "E" tanks.  They are rubber-impregnated brass or aluminum 0-rings that seal much easier than the hard gray 0-rings that come with your "E" tank re-fills.  If you get an old tank which has the fitting on the valve scratched up, it can take a lot of torgue  to make a good seal . . . not a problem with the rubberized type.  I've had to replace two . . . and the last time my 02 supplier gave me a zip-lock bag with six in it.
. . . . AND you can save the gray rings for household projects (15 0-rings and a 3" drywall screw make a dandy coathanger . . . I use them to hang my guitars on . . . also use as washers to adhere styrofoam insulation inside my well-house)

 If you sleep with a significant other . . . soundproof your cart.  If I'm hit at night, sit up and start huffing, Julia will just roll over and go right back to sleep when she hears me open the valve . . . BUT . . . if I have to dance or roll my cart to the fridge for an icepack/coffee . . . the clanging would wake her.   Would like to hear of others'  suggestions . . .. all I did was use electrical tape on the "corners" where the steel is bent to form the handle on the "E" tank cart . . . about 1/8" thick.  Then I use a foot long piece of vacuum hose and insert it in the back of the tank in the shape of and upside-down "U" . . . it holds the tank secure enough that you can open the valve one-handed, and the upside-down "U" is easy to yank out for a quick tank change . . . and it makes no noise when I start rolling it around.

 Be Safe,   PFDANs

   Richard

Hi there,

Does anyone have the exact reference for Goadsby's recent double blind study on Oxygen vs. air?  I'd like to give it to my doctor.  It's pretty conclusive, according to him, and I can't find it on any medical databases.

Thanks!  skiritz@stanford.edu

Hi there,

Does anyone have the exact reference for Goadsby's recent double blind study on Oxygen vs. air?  I'd like to give it to my doctor.  It's pretty conclusive, according to him, and I can't find it on any medical databases.

Thanks!  skiritz@stanford.edu

This is what I would show my doc.
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all the best and try Rozen's published 02 information
the bb

Quote:

but 15 LPM is a must!

Not so!  Rozen's paper says 7-10 lpm is effective for most.  I get by fine at 8 lpm.  May want to suggest to start at 15 lpm and step backward on the flow until the lowest effective flow rate is reached.  O2 therapy can do damage, no need to over do it (why take 1000mg of verap when 480mg works).

Bob P wrote on Dec 29^th, 2008 at 7:36am:

Quote: but 15 LPM is a must! O2 therapy can do damage, no need to over do it (why take 1000mg of verap when 480mg works).

Supporting studies? Links?

I've become a big fan of very high flow O2. Since getting a 25LPM regulator, I’m finding that I can abort much faster. Bob and I have discussed this before and I can't argue with his (and other people) success at lower flow rates. As you know Bob is a big guy, but 8 LPM works for him.  

You can Google Dr. Rozens study and find it published all over the place, but  also refers to Kudrow’s study.
Here is one example:

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All studies aside, I'll stick with what I know works for me without trying too hard to understand it! My simplistic, yet pure perspective.....

Marc

Hi Marc....

Wasn't questioning an 8lpm abort......was wondering about the "damage" claim.

What ever works for the individual is ok by me. 25lpm is manna from heaven for me. I can't breath @ 8.

B

Agreed.

I've never seen a clear statement of any potential damage with short duration (15-20 minutes) use. I've only been able to find rather oblique references to “no problem for otherwise healthy people”  I too would like to know.

I’ve read quite a bit about the dangers of very long term usage – like over 20 hours.

I didn't intend to answer on Bob's behalf - just throwing my 2 cents in world where pennies are worthless!

Marc

From Wikipedia:


Quote:

Appropriate levels of oxygen are vital to support cell respiration. High blood and tissue levels of oxygen can be helpful or damaging, depending on circumstances. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy is the use of high levels of oxygen for treatment of specific diseases. High levels of oxygen given to infants causes blindness by promoting overgrowth of new blood vessels in the eye obstructing sight. This is Retinopathy of prematurity (ROP). Administration of high levels of oxygen in patients with severe emphysema and high blood carbon dioxide reduces respiratory drive, which can precipitate respiratory failure and death. Oxygen first aid specifically refers to the use of oxygen in a first aid setting. Oxygen will assist patients with myocardial infarction and hypoxia (low blood oxygen levels). Care needs to be exercised in patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, especially in those known to retain carbon dioxide (type II respiratory failure) who lose their respiratory drive and accumulate carbon dioxide if administered oxygen in moderate concentration. For this reason, some jurisdictions require medical approval for all emergency oxygen administration.

From Rosen's paper:


Quote:

However, prior to initiating this therapy, patients must obtain clearance from their primary care physician since serious lung disease and other conditions can make oxygen therapy unsafe or inappropriate.

From Surgeryencyclopedia.com:


Quote:

Oxygen is not addictive and causes no side effects when used as prescribed. Complications from oxygen therapy used in appropriate situations are infrequent. Respiratory depression, oxygen toxicity (  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE ), and absorption atelectasis are the most serious complications of oxygen overuse. A physician should be notified and emergency services may be required if the following symptoms develop: frequent headaches anxiety cyanotic (blue) lips or fingernails drowsiness confusion restlessness slow, shallow, difficult, or irregular breathing Oxygen delivery equipment may present other problems. Perforation of the nasal septum as a result of using a nasal cannula and non–humidified oxygen has been reported. In addition, bacterial contamination of nebulizer and humidification systems can occur, possibly leading to the spread of pneumonia. High-flow systems that employ heated humidifiers and aerosol generators, especially when used by patients with artificial airways, also pose a risk of infection.

This is reall y just nit picking though, the point is why use more than you have to.

I agree Bob, I can somewhat tell when it's going to be a monster, in which case I use higher flow rates.  Shadows and light hits don't deserve 25 lpm, I may need that for the big ones. 10 or even less for the minor quakes.
Man am I cheap
the bb

A problem with Rozen's link is that it suggests that if triptans are appropriate for a sufferer, oxygen won't be necessary.  But oxygen is a good first-line approach even when triptans can be used.  Oxygen is much cheaper, firstly.  Also, you can alternate the approaches to aborting attacks, or try oxygen first.  I wouldn't my doc to think that if I had no heart problems I should go with the triptans and skip oxygen.

A problem with Rozen's link is that it suggests that if triptans are appropriate for a sufferer, oxygen won't be necessary.  But oxygen is a good first-line approach even when triptans can be used.  Oxygen is much cheaper, firstly.  Also, you can alternate the approaches to aborting attacks, or try oxygen first.  I wouldn't my doc to think that if I had no heart problems I should go with the triptans and skip oxygen.

This is the first time I've had O2 and I feel like I've finally found an answer. After reading what others say, however, I have some questions. When I breathe in, should I hold it before I exhale? Are there any side effects? Will my body adjust to the treatments and begin to require more? The first few times it only took about 2 minutes before the Beast retreated. Now it's taking up to 10 minutes, and even then, sometimes I have to take a 10-minute break, as recommended by others, and go back to it. It's the best treatment I've found since I couldn't use Sansert anymore. One more thing: We're flying to New Zealand in a couple of weeks and have been told I can't take O2 on the plane with me. What am I going to do? I can't go 19 hours without O2. Suggestions?

For ME, the more I can hyper ventilate, the faster and more effectively it works.

For ME that means 45+ lpm to start, then tapering down to a normal breathing rate after 3-4 minutes.

At 15 lpm, O2 is close to worthless for ME.

I gave up on O2 because "it didn't work for me" - I get angry with myself for suffering soooo many needless hours of agony - because I didn't listen to the folks telling me that I just needed more.

Now, I never have to suffer a real headbanger if my O2 is in reach. THAT gives me my life back.

Marc

Quote:

One more thing: We're flying to New Zealand in a couple of weeks and have been told I can't take O2 on the plane with me. What am I going to do? I can't go 19 hours without O2. Suggestions?

Thats what Trex is for. Maybe lobby the airline for a medical exception?
the bb

wrote on Nov 5^th, 2009 at 3:14pm:

Quote: One more thing: We're flying to New Zealand in a couple of weeks and have been told I can't take O2 on the plane with me. What am I going to do? I can't go 19 hours without O2. Suggestions? Thats what Trex is for. Maybe lobby the airline for a medical exception? the bb

A pressurized O2 tank is a potential bomb waiting to go off. I know of no airline that will allow you to bring a pressurized tank onboard.

They may let you bring a battery-powered concentrator, or they may give you access to the on-board O2 they carry with them. Give them a call. But pressurized tanks are off limits.

Brew is correct. This has come up numerous times and indications are no they won't allow any pressurized containers of any kind...bic lighter.

How after can you use the oxygen? My son has had 4 attacks within 4 hours? So he has used the oxygen @12 lpm, then @ the same tapering off to @8 for 15-20 min a time, is that ok?

It's fine.

         Potter

I agree with Potter.

I'm also amazed that your son gets relief at that low flow rate.

Hi Clustermom,
I am also amazed your son can abort with such low flow rates.  The #1 thing to have him understand is to get on the o2 at first onset of an attack, each second truly matters!!!  Lower flow rates were common years ago until the discovery that higher flow rates abort faster.

If he had a high flow regulator (25 lpm+) he could abort faster by hyperventilating opposed to just breathing deeply.  It is physically impossible to hyperventilate at only 15 lpm or less of a flow rate when using the non-rebreather mask and attached bag.

He also might be able to go longer between attacks if he stayed on the o2 for 5 or 10 minutes after the abort, just at a lower flow rate to breathe normally, while also avoiding wasted o2 from coming out too fast.

There are stores nationwide called Harbor Freight Tools that sell welders regulators for less than $30 bucks and most likely will fit his o2 tank.  These regulators offer high flow rates.  No prescription required to purchase.

An 8 ounce can of an energy drink containing 1,000 mg of Taurine and 60mg Caffeine (such as Redbull, Rockstar, monster, etc) have been very helpful to many of us when chugged fast without o2, and especially right before o2 therapy.

It sure would have been alot easier if I had a mom around as caring as you when I was a teen or in my 20s.  Your son is very blessed to have your sincere support. ;)

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Could someone explain to me again the proper breathing technique so as to hyperventilate.

G'day Wishbone. On the left of your screen is a button marked Oxygen Info that may be of help.

What if I don't have a platinum plated no co-pay heath insurance to cover it? I'm like Johnny, I get the K size welding tanks filled for $32 per cylinder at the welding shop, medical O2 is (X5) way too expensive and medicare doesn't cover O2 for any of us CH victims. O2 @ 10-15 LPM is your only salvation from the pain! You already know that drugs are a waste of time if you are a chronic CH sufferer. I have found that the lidocaine nasal spray works really well when the demon hits your eye orbit, my Neurologist gave me a huge bottle of it and it helps a lot when the eye bore gets to drilling. Rock on fellow CH torture victims!

Hey O2......,

Welcome to CH.com.

Have you looked into the D3 Regimen as a preventative? Many of us here are getting great benefits from it.

Read up in section 2 in the link below:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or END PRINTPAGE

Someone is always here to answer questions.

Best,

Peter.

Nice information posted

The link to the FAQ in the third post on this page is dead... you can get it at web.archive.org


The Wiki page mentioned above by Bob P about oxygen toxicity is for hyperbaric O2.  When you run around an Fi02 of 130 or above, you have a risk of CNS oxygen toxicity, so they use periodic "air breaks" to give your CNS a chance to stabilize (sorry, forgot what the protocol is).  It's impossible to get higher than 100 FiO2 breathing off of a mask; that's purely a risk for hyperbaric chambers and SCUBA (nitrox or technical diving).  The biggest risk I can see from atmospheric O2 is drying your lungs out, which the O2 humidifier corrects.

Google: "OXTOX: If You Dive Nitrox You Should Know About OXTOX" for the skinny from DAN if you want to know more about oxygen toxicity.  Again, little or no risk at atmospheric pressures even with 100% O2.

100% FiO2 in the medical world equals 1 pO2 in the diving world.

The attachment shows the relationship between CNS and pulmonary (lung) oxygen toxicity.  The vertical graph at left with the 1 mark (1 atmosphere at 100% O2) is the point of interest.  This is an older study and they're more conservative nowadays, but the relationship is still reasonably close.  You can inhale pure O2 for 5 to 10 hours straight with zero chance of any pulmonary or CNS issues.  Your only limit is the size of the tank.

As long as you leave 2 or 3 hours between sessions, repetitive O2 loads don't matter much as the 'half-time' for O2 loading is around 90 minutes.  After 3 hours, you're 3/4ths back to 'normal'.

I couldn't find the more recent study data at the National Board of Diving and Hyperbaric Medicine Technology site.  I'm pretty sure the current CNS limit drops to around 1.6-2 at the hour mark as there was a verified 'CNS event' with a deco diver at 20 feet on pure O2.  The military used to dive pure O2 rebreathers to 50 or 70 feet, but that was in war time and they had an acceptable number of losses...