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Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications,  Treatments,  Therapies >> 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
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Message started by Batch on Dec 10th, 2010 at 3:23am

Title: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 10th, 2010 at 3:23am
I started an anti-inflammatory regimen of 3,000 mg to 4,000mg Omega 3 Fish Oil and 10,000 I.U. of vitamin D3 a day around the 4th of October and have been pain free ever since.

This could still be yet another, albeit a very pleasant, example of how the beast can change the game.  On the other hand, being the kind of guy that wonders why things like this happen, I've tested the water by skipping this daily regimen three times over the last three weeks, each time a week apart. 

Each time I skipped taking this anti-inflammatory regimen, I could feel the beast coming back within 24 hours of each skipped dose, usually at night shortly after an hour or so of sleep.  These attacks were very mild at Kip-1 to Kip-2 and cleared all by themselves in less than a minute after I got up and started breathing a little faster.  I also took the daily dose.

My rationale for starting this anti-inflammatory regimen came about when I noticed the earlier buffering regimen of calcium citrate tablets with vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc I took to elevate a low arterial pH, appeared to work much more effectively when I took the Omega 3 Fish Oil and got more direct sun. 

After some research, it appears the body can generate 10,000I.U. of vitamin D3 with as little as 10 minutes of direct sun on exposed skin.  See the following two links for more info on anti-inflammatory diets and supplements:

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My two previous two-week remissions occurred while I was spending a couple hours a day working in the yard or out on a boat with lots of direct sunlight...  both times wearing a tank top and shorts most of the day.

At that point I was convinced the calcium citrate tablets with vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc washed down with lemonade (high in citric acid) or margaritas (also high in citric acid), with or without the agave, was working as a buffer to elevate my arterial pH to lower the frequency and intensity of my cluster headaches.

Today, I'm convinced more than ever it's the vitamin D3 and Omega 3 Fish Oil that was, and still is, making the most difference by reducing the neurogenic inflammation associated with the pathophysiology of the cluster headache.

Again, this is still very anecdotal, and for sure, we're all wired differently, so individual reactions to this regimen may vary.  Having said that, ask your PCP or neurologist about giving this regimen a try.  So far for me, it appears to be an effective and inexpensive preventative. 

I hope this helps or at least provides food for thought.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wimsey1 on Dec 10th, 2010 at 7:12am
Sounds promising, Pete. Thanks, and keep us posted! Blessings. lance

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -johnny- on Dec 10th, 2010 at 12:10pm
question for the board.

is there anyway we can make  posts like this easier to find or make them more permanent? this is a brilliant post but if i were to refer to it in lets say a year from now it will be buried and hard to find.  just a thought

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Dec 10th, 2010 at 12:56pm
Interesting results Batch.

Have you tried using just one of the two (vitamin D3 and Omega 3 Fish Oil) to see if both are needed or just one of them is?


-johnny- wrote on Dec 10th, 2010 at 12:10pm:
is there anyway we can make  posts like this easier to find or make them more permanent? this is a brilliant post but if i were to refer to it in lets say a year from now it will be buried and hard to find.


The moderators have mentioned a hall of fame posts forums or something similar that they are considering. If this happens then this post (like so many of Batch's) would be good candidates for it.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by mikstudie on Dec 10th, 2010 at 3:53pm
Great thread,Thanks...

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ginger S. on Dec 10th, 2010 at 8:44pm

Mike NZ wrote on Dec 10th, 2010 at 12:56pm:
Interesting results Batch.

Have you tried using just one of the two (vitamin D3 and Omega 3 Fish Oil) to see if both are needed or just one of them is?


-johnny- wrote on Dec 10th, 2010 at 12:10pm:
is there anyway we can make  posts like this easier to find or make them more permanent? this is a brilliant post but if i were to refer to it in lets say a year from now it will be buried and hard to find.


The moderators have mentioned a hall of fame posts forums or something similar that they are considering. If this happens then this post (like so many of Batch's) would be good candidates for it.

Mike I tried Pete's Vitamin D3 2000IU and Omega 3 Fish oil regiment at his suggestion. 
I started out with a lower dose of the Vitamin D3 since I am smaller in stature than Pete is.  I started with 2 of the V-D3 and 3 Omega Fish oils per day.  This turned out to be too much  V-D3 for me so I lowered it to 1 V-D3 per day and kept the fish oil @ 3/day.  Still turned out to have too much of the V-D3 at  even one per day (no wonder I don't do well with too much sun don't need as much of the vitamin since I apparently get enough in my diet) on the chance that it was also too much Omega Fish oil I dropped it to two / day.  Not sure if it's just the end of my High cycle time (chronic so I always  have the CH almost daily) or if it's the Vitamin supplement Omega 3 Fish oil but I have notice a down tick in the number of hits I've gotten over the last week.

Thank You Pete for the suggestion on the vitamins it may have helped me, just in time too, was about to run out of this months rx's for both the nasal and my injectors of Imitrex. The Stash I'd built up after the huge refill I posted about a month or so ago is history!  Who knows if I hadn't started this regime right after we met I may be in a whole-nother world of hurt right now.  I may whined up adding 1 V-D3 per week, will have to see what the next week or two brings with the number of hits I get.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Drew_Va on Dec 11th, 2010 at 7:46am
I'm in a cycle now (peaking it seems) and I  already  take 3000mg of Omega 3 daily (for years).  I upped the dosage yesterday to 4000mg and will add the D3 starting today. Will let y'all know how this turns out.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by starlight on Dec 11th, 2010 at 3:28pm
Batch,

I am so happy you are still painfree!  I am still taking 2 omega fish oil capsules and 5,000 iu vit D--am doing well but with using other meds too.   It was so helpful to me when I was down and out that you took the time to try to help me.  So glad for you that you are having continued success with your regimen.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 12th, 2010 at 5:21am
Mike,

Great question.  Between the Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3, it appears the vitamin D3 is likely the key factor.  I've run on 3,000mg to 4,000mg of Omega 3 Fish Oil a day in the past for five months without any vitamin D3.  I took it to combat a high total cholesterol side effect from taking rapamune (sirolimus) I was taking as a participant in a clinical study at NIH for an unrelated eye condition. 

Although Omega 3 Fish Oil helped clearly lower the frequency and intensity of my cluster headaches during that period, the results were not as dramatic as when I added the vitamin D3.  It did bring my total cholesterol down from 250 to 180 in less than two weeks and kept it there until I finished taking the sirolimus.

I've not tried to run on just the 10,000I.U. of vitamin D3 as yet.  I'll give it a try in January if things don't change and let you know either way.

Drew, thanks for giving this regimen a try.  That's the only way we can start getting past the anecdotal nature of my results from this regimen. 

I started taking the vitamin D3 in the morning before breakfast and it didn't become fully effective until the evening of the second day of 10,000I.U. a day.  I was averaging four attacks a night when I started this regimen.  The first night I had only two attacks and none the second night.

For 10 years while I was episodic, my cycles always ended in June so this change in cluster headache pattern is clearly not on the same schedule... but then the beast is good at changing the game... 

The only side effect I noticed so far from this regimen over the last two months is I've dropped 10 lbs.  Of course the extra physical activity of preparing our house for sale in Northern VA, packing out, and moving into the house I built in 1983 near Bremerton, WA could easily explain the weight loss.

Sarah, thanks for the kind words.  Glad to hear you're doing better.  I take it your oxygen therapy is working better with the new method.

I'm still humming right along at this point and watching Navy beat Army 31 to 17 made the day very special.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Lauren17 on Dec 15th, 2010 at 8:39am
I swear I could make a book from all of the posts of Batch's that I have printed out and put in our kit for next cycle! will be giving this a try for the next one of Lucas's cycle- we'll post the results.

Thank you. I wish there was a way to convey the sentiment behind that as stronger than the "thank you" we say when someone gets you a cup of coffee, for example. Were it a handshake, this thank you would be the 2 handed, knuckle crushing, edging on overly long kind! So thank you, Batch, I'm positive I'll have an opprotunity to say it again in the future.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 15th, 2010 at 1:12pm
Lauren,

Thank you for the kind words.  I'm happy you've found some of my post interesting enough to print. 

As far as the topic of this thread goes and the use of the anti-inflammatory regimen as a preventative...  the jury is still out...

I may have overlooked an obvious reason for the cessation of my cluster headaches...  I've been geezing so long I may have outlived the beast. 

The survey many of us took in 2008 indicates only 5% of cluster headache sufferers are 61 or older.  I wish we had worded the age question with additional age group categories or asked for date of birth.

Thanks again for the kind words and take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thebbz on Dec 15th, 2010 at 1:35pm

Quote:
both times wearing a tank top and shorts most of the day.
[smiley=spit.gif] [smiley=spit.gif]
NO PLEASE NO!!! NOT the tank top and shorts again....OH the PAIN, make him stop.
Right on thread there Batch...couldn't help myself.
bb

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Dec 20th, 2010 at 9:19pm
BINGO Batch

I don't know why people say I'm slow! ;)

I have read through this thread a hundred times & only just twigged to the similarity to what I have been doing for the last couple of years; as long timers here may recall I started on a magnesium/calcium regime in April 2006 & had varying results with remission from high cycles (I'm chronic) until around July 2008 it was about that time that the Magnesium/Calcium supplements I was taking changed when the manufacturer added Vitamin D3 to the mix, I have now been 880 days in low cycle with only shadows & the occasional ice pick jab.

I haven't tried the fish oil supps as such but I do eat fish at least 3 times a week & enjoy my sardine & onion sandwich as much as 3 times a week as well.

Another anecdotal is that I live in a area where sunlight is pretty much constant all year round & work a job that is 60% office based 40% field work with weekends spent outside except for sleeping.

I wont say that this is the be all & end all of the C word but it has given me a pretty good life away from the constant bashings I was getting before & there are to many similarities to what Batch is achieving to ignore the possibility.

One other thing that i reintroduced into my diet was common table salt; I had gone away from salt after my daughter hounded me for years that it was going to harden the blood pump factory, I don't overdo the intake it's just enough to taste & I believe is helpful in the transmission of neurons.

If I wake up tomorrow with the brain in gear & think of anything else I'll let y'all know.

The tablets I am taking just an off the shelf from the supermarket or chemist and each contain,

" Calcium amino acid chelate 500mg
Calcium carbonate 375 mg
Magnesium amino acid chelate 125mg
Magnesium oxide-heavy 42.96mg
Vitamin D3 200IU"

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wimsey1 on Dec 21st, 2010 at 1:52pm
Any thoughts on whether fish oil or D3 would/could be beneficial for migraines? For my wife. And just for grins, I will say I have had good luck with high units of B6. When I stopped taking the melatonin/B6 combo, they came right back. Anyone else using B6? Color me curious. lance

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by eilif on Dec 29th, 2010 at 3:43am
Hi

Nice to see others CH have success with vitamin-D3. I have been pain free for 3 years after taking vitamin-D. But vitamin-D has some co-factors which are important to take together with the vitamin. The formula is:

5000-10.000 IU Vitamin-D3:Vitamin D is the "miracle nutrient" that activates your immune system

500 mg Magnesium Chloride Oil: The best way to get magnesium is via the skin. The absorption is 70% and only 10-20% when taking oral magnesium supplement. Act the same way as Verapamil. Is the natures own Calcium Channel Blocker with no side effects.
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45 µg Vitamin K2:
Vitamin K2 cleans calcium deposits from your arteries and deposits it in your bones.

3-9 mg Boron: To increase level of free testosterone.
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Zink

Vitamin D cofactors: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by George on Dec 29th, 2010 at 10:04am
Hiya again, Niels. 

Best,

George

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by vietvet2tours on Dec 29th, 2010 at 1:54pm
Little feller is persistent.

        Potter

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Dec 29th, 2010 at 3:11pm
He may have gotten a little bit of corroboration.

Jerry

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by eilif on Dec 29th, 2010 at 6:10pm
I think you guys have eaten too much mushrooms lately. Try some vitamin-D3 instead.

Best Eilif

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Dec 29th, 2010 at 6:16pm
What is that definition of insanity again? Trying the same thing over and over and always expecting a different result - yeah, that's it.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Dec 29th, 2010 at 7:00pm

Brew wrote on Dec 29th, 2010 at 6:16pm:
Trying the same thing over and over and always expecting a different result - yeah, that's it.


That is why quantum mechanics (physics) is so confusing as you'll probably get a different answer every time!

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Linda_Howell on Dec 30th, 2010 at 12:19am

Quote:
I think you guys have eaten too much mushrooms lately. Try some vitamin-D3 instead.


Time to give it a rest Neils.  ::)

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 30th, 2010 at 3:23am
Hope all of you had a Very Merry Christmas...  and here's to a wonderful and Happy New Year!

Lance, even though I'm still PF after 86 days...  the jury is still out on the efficacy of the anti-inflammatory regimen of vitamin D3 and Omega 3 Fish Oil as a preventative for cluster headaches. 

Having said that, there are so many similarities between the pathophysiology of CH and Migraine that it may help migraine sufferers as well.  It's at least worth a try.  I've got Joyce taking the vitamin D3.  She's been on it since the end of November and so far has skipped her usual monthly migraine...

All you need to do is compare the side effects to see this regimen is much safer than taking verapamil as a preventative and sumatriptan succinate as an abortive.

Take care and Happy New Year.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 30th, 2010 at 5:10am
Barry,

Thanks for the update on your experience with calcium, magnesium and vitamin D3.  This is starting to get interesting.  There may be something about taking this regimen of minerals and vitamin D3 after all...  I was beginning to think I'd out geezed the beast.

On a more serious note, I'm still PF and still on the regimen of Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3.  Like you, I also eat fish a couple times a week.

In looking over what I've been doing differently that may be playing a role in the cessation of my cluster headaches, the two things that stand out are the vitamin D3 and a lot more physical activity. 

My tired old bones tell me every night about all the work I've been doing.   The other indication of increased physical activity is I haven't changed my eating habits yet I've still lost 20 lbs and 4 inches off my waist in the last two and a half months...

Take care and thanks for your insights.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Erics.Parents on Dec 31st, 2010 at 8:37am
I have Omega 3  - Salmon Oil is that the same. 

Also, on another thread someone said that Vit. D3 boost Testosterone levels.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 2nd, 2011 at 8:49am
Denise,

Salmon Oil is high in Omega 3 and there appears to be more than anecdotal evidence that increased intake of vitamin D3 increases testosterone levels.

I hope Eric doing better.  Have any of these regimens had any effect on the frequency and intensity of his cluster headaches?

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Yan on Jan 13th, 2011 at 1:58pm
Hi Batch......great read.

I stated to take Vitamin D3 and Omega 3 yesterday.... but got a first real attack during the night :(

A few questions:

-First, are you still PF?

-Do you take the 10 000 units of Vitamin D3 at once in the morning?

-The Omega 3 capsules I take have these ingredients:

Fish oil concentrate (anchovy, sardine, mackerel) - 1065 mg
Omega-3 fatty acids - 630 mg
Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) - 400 mg
Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) - 200 mg

Now, I have no clue what is what here.....is it the total of all 4 ingredients that are all Omega 3s?

Thanks for the help, and hope you are still PF :)

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by akage on Jan 13th, 2011 at 5:28pm
I've increased my dosage of D3 to 9000 IU (from my usual 5000 IU) for the last 2 weeks or so, unfortunately no effect on me, still getting hits.

Title: Re: 70 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 15th, 2011 at 2:56am
95 days and it swerkin...  We're all wired differently so it's not surprising this anti-inflammatory regimen may not work as well or at all with others... 

Then again, it may not be working at all and I've just outgeezed the beast.  I'm still taking the 3,000mg. (three 1,000mg. softgels) Omega 3 Fish Oil and the 10,000I.U. vitamin D3 (two 5,000I.U. softgels) every morning just in case it is working. 

I feel great.  I've dropped 30 lbs, 4 inches off my waist and I'm wearing Levi's that suffered severe shrinkage 20 years ago.  Of course the weight loss could be due to getting off my but and doing a little work laying up some fire wood before the heavy snow hits.

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In any case, I'm not complaining.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 95 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeel-blues on Feb 5th, 2011 at 6:56pm
batch would you say this needs to be taken alone or can it be coupled with prescription preventatives such as lithium verapamil etc?

Title: Re: 95 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 6th, 2011 at 10:46am
THB,

As the skin can generate between 10,000I.U to 20,000I.U vitamin D3 in as little as 30 minutes exposure to direct sunlight and the fact that there are amazingly few contraindications for vitamin D3, I feel quite comfortable taking both the vitamin D3 and Omega 3 fish oil along with other medications.

BTW, I've been pain free for over 120 days since starting this regimen and at 67, I'm feeling and acting like a kid again.  I'm out in the woods nearly every day with my chainsaw and must have cut, split and stacked at least a couple cords of fire wood in the last two months.  I'm also still shedding weight.  Go figure...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 6th, 2011 at 11:16am

Quote:
...I'm feeling and acting like a kid again.

Which makes Joyce a happy girl.  ;)

Say hello to her for us.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeel-blues on Feb 6th, 2011 at 1:24pm
and some really nice looking firewood it is,,im jealous

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 6th, 2011 at 6:52pm
I've had Joyce on the same Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3 regimen since Christmas when she commented I was packing more wood... ::)  We also added the calcium citrate combo supplements about that time per several studies I've read.

Joyce has shed some weight as well and hasn't had a migraine in two months...  Now we're both running around like a couple kids... :D so the positive side effects of this regimen continue to multiply.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Feb 7th, 2011 at 2:58am
That's good news Batch.
I'm now 928 days or 2years 6 months.
This B3 sardine sanga's along with the magnesium/calcium may just yet prove worth while.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2011 at 3:37am
G'day Barry,

Thanks for the great comments.  The results of this regimen are clearly anecdotal at this point and will likely remain that way for a while until more folks try it with similar results...  Having said that, I think we're onto something good here.

Take care and Cheers,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 7th, 2011 at 9:45am
I took Batch's suggestion and started the same supplement regimen.  To that my M.D. suggested adding 1,000mg Taurine 3x per day, 3,000mg Glycine at bedtime daily, and daily doses of Resveratrol, and Selenium.  I found an interesting article on Glycine and its relationship with GABA (the major inhibitory neurotransmitter of the brain) here:
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Anyway, long story short: anecdotally, my clusters started to become less numerous and less intense about three days after starting these supplements. No way to say with certainty that it wasn't some other lull or nearing the end of the cycle.  But I'm all for using the shotgun approach to get out of pain. 
Speaking of which, two days after the lessening of the ch's I got a script from my Doc for Prednisone and I've been totally PF for over two days now. 

I wish the pain weren't so agonizing for all of us so we could leisurely try one treatment at a time and thereby figure out what individual or combination of therapies, meds, etc...actually worked.

Thanks for your input Batch.  BTW from what source(s) did you come across that supplement info?

P.S. I'd like to know anyone's experience with Choline supplementation.
Thanks!
-Glassman

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2011 at 1:07pm
Hey Glassman,

Great input on this regimen and I'm glad to hear the prednisone taper is working for you.  It's typically 90% effective for most of us, but all bets are off when the taper ends unless there's another preventative in play at that point.  If there's no other intervention at the end of the taper, the beast has a propensity to come back with a vengeance.

As with most of my findings in the treatment of our disorder, I arrived at my conclusion on the effectiveness of the anti-inflammatory regimen of Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3 largely through first hand experience followed by searching through results from a lot of clinical studies to confirm my findings with sound medical evidence.

I had originally attributed several week long CH remissions to a buffering regimen of calcium citrate tablets that also contained vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc washed down with homemade lemonade... 

However, upon review of my logs I found there were two more factors that came into play during three of these remissions. The first was increasing the dose of the calcium citrate tablets up from three to four/day.  The other was two of the week-long CH remissions occurred while I wasn't taking the calcium citrate tablets but I was taking the Omega 3 Fish Oil while spending a good bit of time outside in direct sunlight wearing shorts and tank top working in the yard.

I connected the dots last October while I was here in Bremerton, Washington working on the house.  I realized that the CH remissions I'd attributed to the calcium citrate and citric acid buffer were more than likely due to the increased level of vitamin D3 from sunlight so I stopped by Costco and picked up a bottle of 2,000I.U. softgel capsules and started dosing at 10,000I.U. a day along with three of the 1000mg Omega 3 Fish Oil softgel capsules.

At that point I was in a high cycle with four CH a night at pain level 7 on the 10-Point headache pain scale and was aborting them in 6 to 7 minutes with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation. 

The first night after starting on the vitamin D3 the CH dropped to two.  The second night was PF and it's been that way ever since.  I've been chronic since 2004 and two weeks was the longest I'd spent in remission/very low cycle.

I based my 10,000I.U. dosage based on several articles on blood serum concentrations of 25(OH)D, which is the circulating Vitamin D metabolite that serves as the most frequently measured indicator of Vitamin D status.

Most of the recent research articles I've read support a much higher normal range than the present 50 to 80 nmol/L and an even higher range for a therapeutic level.  Part of their rationale is based on the fact that 30 minutes of direct sunlight results in serum concentrations of 25(OH)D in the 212 to 220 range.  That is the same range they see when dosing with 10,000I.U. vitamin D3/day.

There are 317 hits on vitamin D3 studies on ClinicalTrials.gov so there's a lot of interest on this topic.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeel-blues on Feb 7th, 2011 at 2:32pm
i know its way to early yet but on my 2nd night of this regimen i slept all night with no hits,cant even remember the last time i did that.

honestly it was just like your experience batch,they were cut in half the first night and gone the 2nd,,keeping my fingers crossed for tonight,
THANKS  so much for what you do here Batch,magic bullet or not at least your giving us some ammo,

why the heck after 10 yrs with the same neuro have none of this kinda stuff been suggested by him?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Feb 7th, 2011 at 6:44pm

TarHeel-blues wrote on Feb 7th, 2011 at 2:32pm:
why the heck after 10 yrs with the same neuro have none of this kinda stuff been suggested by him?


Probably because he doesn't suffer like us.

I remember when I first started out on my run with magnesium a statement made by Helen (LeLimey) “If a cure is ever to be found for our condition it would come from this site” How prophetic that now seems to be.
Not that this is a cure but we hurt a lot less & I don't think it's just coincidental that 2 people thousands of km apart could be getting similar results.

As I said in an earlier post “around July 2008 was about that time that the Magnesium/Calcium supplements I was taking changed when the manufacturer added Vitamin D3 to the mix” That was when this current period of no CH hits started, prior to that the best PF time I had managed since going chronic in October 2004 was 297 days.

I have taken a slightly different route to batch but it seems we have arrived at the same destination with the common factor being D3.
As Batch has said about the sunlight being a major contributor I live in a sub tropical area & spend 50% of my working time out in the sun, so I get a lot of free D3.

I’m now going to add the Omega 3 fish oil supplements to my regime & see if they reduce my almost constant shadowing.

I’ll never ever know if I never ever go. ;)

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 7th, 2011 at 8:01pm
Batch's regimen got me thru a shi$$y high cycle this last go round...when even 02 was failing me. No question in my mind there is something to it. On or off cycle I take a daily Fish oil, magnesium, zinc, calcium citrate with D, and a regular daily vitamin.

Glad it's getting yout thru the night...that's a beautiful thing! :)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MITYRARE on Feb 7th, 2011 at 8:23pm
I have been tuned into this thread for some time and I am so happy you are getting relief Batch.

I am confident that in the not to distant future a preventive protocol that will help most CH patients will come as a result of the experiences on this forum.

Hormones, vitamins and supplements, psychedilcs...there is a key to treatment buried here somewhere...hopefully the scientists will try and keep up with the findings and experiences of people here and create an effective treatment for all.


paul

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 8th, 2011 at 10:37am
I've noticed that when I'm in cycle, which is usually during the winter months, I have a strong craving to just stare at the blue sky on a bright sunny day (which we don't get all that often during the Central Ohio winters). At times I've sat in my car in a parking lot for up to two hours just looking at the sky (note: not directly at the sun!). On overcast days I sit in my plant room under the 400 watt grow light.  Though I'm not sure if there's an effect on the CH's, there's a definite and deep calming relief I feel during these "photosynthetic" moments.

The one time I got CH during the summer months was when I was working in a dark room most of the day (I'm also a massage therapist) and not seeing daylight but a couple of hours a day (thanks to my wife Kathy for making that connection).


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 8th, 2011 at 11:57am
Out of curiosity, I did some research on effects of light stimulation and the optic pathways leading to the hypothalamus and related areas. Which lead me to the following.

Apparently, not much is known, nor have many studies been done, about vitamin D receptors in the human brain.

Here's an abstract of a study from the Journal of Chemical Neuroanatomy which describes the location of vitamin D receptors in the human brain and the enzyme which is responsible for formation of the active form of the vitamin :
"The strongest immunohistochemical staining for both the receptor and enzyme was in the hypothalamus and in the large (presumably dopaminergic) neurons within the substantia nigra."

Interesting, since more research is pointing to defects in the hypothalamus as the source of CH's, and peoples claims of help from vitamin D.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 8th, 2011 at 11:59am
Sorry, I meant to also post the link to the above journal article:
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thebbz on Feb 8th, 2011 at 6:44pm

Quote:
I teach Anatomy & Physiology and am always interested in discovering new information.

Wished I knew what you know, and you had a feather in your hat. ;)
signed
Jealous :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 9th, 2011 at 8:24pm
Hey THB,

Outstanding news!  You've done what I hope more CH'ers will do by giving this regimen a try and your early results are icing on the cake.  At less than 10 cents a day for the two doses, lots of other proven health benefits and no real downside, this regimen is almost a no-brainer.

Although I've got my fingers crossed that your remission continues, I'm a realist, so I'm also long way from hoisting the victory banner.  We need to collect a lot more user evidence from CH'ers like you to prove this regimen is an effective preventative for CH before we can attract the interest and funding required to do the kind of clinical trials that will make treatments like this ready for prime time.

As an example, It's taken over $200 thousand dollars and four years from the time we collected enough user data on the demand valve method of oxygen therapy that proved it was better than 90% effective and three times faster than oxygen therapy at a flow rate of 15 liters/minute in aborting a CH, to get Dr. Rozen's study of this method started.

Unfortunately even very favorable results from this study won't give the demand valve method of oxygen therapy prime time status as an accepted acute treatment and abortive for cluster headache. 

It's going to take a gold standard clinical study with a randomized, double-blind, crossover, placebo controlled protocol and statistically significant results to convince clinicians, neurologists, payers, and government bureaucrats the demand valve method of oxygen therapy is not only safe and significantly more effective than oxygen therapy at ≤15 liters/minute, but that it's abort times rival that of imitrex injections at a fraction of the cost and without any side effects.

Bob Wold and the good folks at Clusterbusters have been doing the same thing for BOL.  They put up a big chunk of coin to make Dr. John Halpern's proof of concept/Phase I study of 2-bromo-LSD as a long term CH preventative possible.  That study completed with eye opening results.  Now they're working to get the Phase II study underway.

Long story made short, we've got a long way to go even with good participation before we can prove the Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3 regimen is an effective CH preventative beyond just anecdotal testimony.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeel-blues on Feb 9th, 2011 at 9:09pm
well i went from 10-12 hits a day all in the k-7 to k-9 range most of them coming at night robbing me of any real sleep to 1 k-3ish hit in the last 3 days,,
ive gotten more sleep in the last 3 nights than ive gotten the last 3 months combined,,AND IT FEELS GREAT!!!

early or not that kind of relief has mr batch high on my hero list for sure!!

if you come up wih any more regimens ill gladly be your guinea pig

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Feb 10th, 2011 at 3:21am
That's the type of news that I love to hear, may it continue.
I have altered my regime to include D3 & dropped one of the Magnesium/Calcium/D3 tabs & included omega 3 so we shall see what happens.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by karma on Feb 15th, 2011 at 5:47pm
Jury's out but good results so far.
As a little background: Episodic and have been using RC seeds, O2, and caffiene. Since starting the seeds years ago the cyle is slow to develope and easily shut down for the most part. I was dosing every 3 days before staring and was able to extend to five days.
I added D3 and fish oil as described by Batch a week ago and stopped getting night hits right away. Energy boost is significant to the point of being almost to much at times.
I wouldn't soley depend on D3`and fish oil but it definetly seems to be helping the seed regime and sleeping is something to look forward to.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MarkHW on Feb 21st, 2011 at 3:18pm
Hi All, my name is Mark.  I was on the CH boards years ago, but haven't posted in a long time.  My cluster has been doing much better since I moved from Ohio to Austin, Texas.  I even went a little over a year without an attack!

But.. I went to Ohio over the Christmas holidays and by the end of the trip I was in cycle.  Used prednazone to stop it for awhile, but the cycle returned after 2 boughts of steroids.

I was running out of patience and imitrex, so I checked out the site and saw the post on D3 & Fish Oil.  so, I decided to give it a try.  I started on 15000 IU D3 and 3 fish oil tablets (not sure dosage).  The clusters stopped, but I was so nauseous I couldn't get out of bed. 

I cut down to 10,000 IU D3 and 2 fish oil tablets and was better, but still very nauseous.  I then cut to 5,000 IU D3 and 1 fish oil tablet.  I was still nauseous and headaches returned.

After doing some research I cut the fish oil out and went back to 10,000 IU D3.  I'm now headache free again.  I'm considering going up to 15,000 IU of D3 again if need be because the nausea is pretty much gone.

I have both cluster and migraine and the D3 seems to be stopping both!

Thanks for this tip!!  I'll keep you updated on my progress!
Thanks again, Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 21st, 2011 at 3:50pm
Mark,
Funny, I'm from Ohio and went to Austin in January for a quick get away and came back with CH's!  (probably didn't help that I was there during one of the coldest spells in years!)
Anyway, I seem to be in remission now.  I too noticed upset stomach from doing more than 2,800 IU fish oil daily.  So I've cut back on the fish oil but but am still doing 12,000 IU vitamin D and that seems to be OK for my stomach.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lori_p on Feb 25th, 2011 at 12:38am
Hi Batch & everyone,

I'd love to try this regimen & just wanted to know when you take your supplements during the day?  Do you take them all at once, or throughout the day? 

Thanks so much!
Lori

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Feb 25th, 2011 at 7:17pm
Man, the results people seem to be having from this are amazing!

I myself do not have CH, but I do take D3 every day because it is great for the immune system. This is really encouraging! I'd like to hear more updates!  :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Feb 25th, 2011 at 8:43pm
Thanks Lori & Jair
I was just about to bump this thread upward as I think the results that some are getting from this method are to significant to just be forgotten.

I take my sups spread out over the day, Batch will undoubtedly be along soon to fill in what I cant.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 26th, 2011 at 1:24am
Thanks all for giving this regimen a try and for chiming in with your results.  I don't think it matters much when you take the Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3 softgels although taking them with a meal is probably a good idea. 

I take mine all at once in the morning before breakfast with a glass of OJ or cold water followed by a cup of my home roasted coffee. 

I'm brewing a wonderful blend of fresh roasted Colombian Supremo Popayan and Ethiopian Yirgacheffe this week.  I buy the green coffee beans in bulk so the average cost is still slightly under $5/lb for these two cultivars... even with the recent hike in commodity prices.

My coffee roaster is an $18 PopLite air popper from Wally-Mart with a little rabbit mesh to keep the beans from going into orbit so this is a low cost treat that's had Joyce and I hooked for the last 8 years.

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Again, thanks for giving the anti-inflammatory regimen a try and letting us know of your results.

On a related note for the CH'ers who live in Pennsylvania, Southern NY, NJ, DE, Northern VA, Western MD, WV, or Eastern OH, Dr. Todd Rozen is conducting a pilot study of the demand valve method of oxygen inhalation therapy for cluster headache. 

The study opened earlier this month at the Geisinger Center for Clinical Studies (CCS) at their Wyoming Valley facilities located at 1000 East Mountain Blvd, Wilkes Barre, PA  18711, but the response has been slow.

I realize the drive to the Geisinger CCS may be an inconvenience or show stopper for many of you, but if you're interested, this study will compare the results of oxygen therapy at a flow rate of 15 liters/minute with the new method of aborting cluster headaches administered by oxygen demand valve at respiration rates that support hyperventilation. 

Other than the out of pocket travel expense for two trips for the induction exam and out-brief, the folks at Geisinger will provide everything you'll need at no cost and you walk away with an Rx for oxygen therapy to boot.

The link for this study is listed below:

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If you decide it's not worth your time to participate or you're no longer in cycle, if you know any other CH'ers that live within driving distance from the CCS you think might be interested, give them a call or email...  Any help will do us all a lot of good as we need studies like this to prove oxygen therapy can be highly effective with very short abort times if the flow rate is high enough.  It will also help draw attention to our disorder and that is always a good thing.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 26th, 2011 at 9:10am
As someone who bought his own demand valve I gotta say these kind of trials are critical. If there's any way you can participate please consider doing so. For yourself and for every CH'er who has been told 6 LPM is a high enough flow rate to abort. >:( The demand valve is nothing short of awesome! These kind of studies could one day make it a main stream prescription.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dereksgirl on Feb 26th, 2011 at 11:46am
not sure if this relevant, but I found this study interesting in regards to low flow rates for oxygen and its effect on Serotonin levels...

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DG

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 27th, 2011 at 12:41pm
Interesting study, DG. Thanks for sharing it!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Feb 27th, 2011 at 11:19pm
So how are the D3 trials going for you all? I'm really curious about this, I'll be asking for updates, just to give you a heads up. Don't let me become too annoying. :P

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by red ryder on Feb 28th, 2011 at 5:05pm
As posted on the tread I started, I think there is something to Batch's D3 and cal-mag-fish oil. I brought the D3 up to 10,000 for last 3-4 days and last night I slept throught the night 7+ hours without a headache. In my 17 years of cluster headaches when in cycle I have always been hit at night at least once unless I took DHE or the cycle was over. I am only 3 weeks in to this cycle and this is great. No hits at all durring the day. I don't know how much the verapamil is playing part of that.                       Jay                           

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Skyhawk5 on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 7:07pm
Bump..

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wimsey1 on Mar 4th, 2011 at 7:22am
Good morning, Batch and all.  So as I posted the neuro had me titrating off verapamil by 40mgs/day every two weeks. I got down to 320mgs and the Beast came back big time...every day, then twice a day and once at night, then 3 times a day...and the same ol' same ol' pattern was reintroducing itself.  So I began upping the dose and have been back to 400mgs/day. But the hits just kept coming. Then I remembered the post on D3, and since there was this jar of soft gels sitting on my window sill...two days I took 10K units and I didn't get a hit all day or night...and yesterday, again 10K units, and hit free again. So I'll do it again today. It beats the pred taper I was thinking about. And I pray it will tame this beast, too. Blessings. lance

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 4th, 2011 at 7:53am
Lance, I'm thrilled to hear of such great news!  I believe (more like hope)  my cycle has ended but I'm still on the D3 etc... just because I feel way better on it.
Hope it continues to work for you!
-Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by red ryder on Mar 4th, 2011 at 8:51am
Just thought I would let everyone know I have gone 5 days now without a headache after starting Batches formula. I am only 3 1/2 weeks into this cycle and as I stated before this is just eye opening. Only one mild shadow thurs. morning. Have not had to touch the O2. I even tapered down the verap from 400 to 320. Only other thing I am taking is 9mg melatonin at night. I hope this continues, thanks Batch and everyone for their input!!!!   jay

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 4th, 2011 at 10:54am
Jay, Lance, Mark, All,

Thank you for keeping us up to speed on your progress with this anti-inflammatory regimen.  This is exactly what I had hoped for and needed to hear.

I've done some research on the magnitude of the placebo effect and there are too few studies that look at it in isolation.  Most look at the placebo effect in context of a comparison with a therapeutic agent.   It's going to take a gold standard clinical trial (Randomized, Crossover, Double Blind, Placebo Controlled) to quantify the placebo effect with any precision that we may be experiencing with this regimen.

Having said that, there's sufficient evidence that quantifies the outside limits and magnitude of a placebo effect between 30% and 70%

To my way of thinking, if we as a group are achieving better than 75% efficacy from this regimen with either a CH pain free response or a significant reduction in the frequency, intensity and duration of our CH, then we are actually experiencing a therapeutic effect from this regimen.

The other way of looking at these results is...  Machs nicht!  Who cares if it's a placebo effect or a therapeutic effect...  the pain is gone!

Please keep the reports coming...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 4th, 2011 at 1:18pm
Batch, and everyone...
I believe, Batch, that in your own way, you have done a small n, ABA design (pioneered by B. F. Skinner) with your own trials of being on and then off and on again the supplements and noting the changes in pain levels with each change in the administration of the supplements.
From the first page of your post on this topic: "Each time I skipped taking this anti-inflammatory regimen, I could feel the beast coming back within 24 hours of each skipped dose...."
This, at least according to what I remember from psych, is enough to indicate a significant effect. Maybe not enough to satisfy the "gold standard" but certainly more than enough to continue exploration.
I wasn't bold enough to face the beast again to do this myself.  But if anyone out there trying this supplement regimen wants to go off and note any changes in pain level then go back on and do the same, please let us know your results.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Lauren17 on Mar 8th, 2011 at 9:56am
Lucas has picked up this regime as well.

He's finding the right balance between 2,000mg-4,000mg omega 3 and 8,000IU to 10,000IU D3 right now- will post again when we finalize dosage. He is out of cycle now, and unfortunately (wait- totally totally fortunately, I just mean unfortunately in relation to this research) his cycles still bounce around a bit. Sometimes it's 6 months sometimes it is 2 years. So we won't know if this prevents a cycle for him BUT he has been getting off cycle zaps for a few seconds and the occasional shadow- we'll see what this does for those. These are new for him, and both of us feel this means he has another cycle right around the corner- but that is based on solely a gut feeling. So we'll see. I'll bust out the Cluster Headache journal again to record our findings on this.

Fingers crossed ad a Thank You and good luck to all of you!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Mar 8th, 2011 at 5:58pm
Hi to all, back here after amost a 4 year remission period. I had been in cycle again for 6 days when I found this post, and decided to try the cal-mag-d and fish oil. Was having two hits a night, ramping up to a kip 8 or 9. Using O2 to abort, which always works for me, within 10 minutes or so. I've decided holding off running to the neuro for my usual  pred taper and verapamil. I have always taken a multivitamin, but I am on day 4 of an added 7,200 IU of D, 1200 calcium, 2,000 fish oil, 750 Magnesium. Threw in 50Mg of zinc for good measure. I know it may be to early to tell, but I actually had only ONE mild hit last night, kip 4, used the O2 and was gone within 3 minutes! My shadows have eased up too! I can't tell you how ecstatic I am, and hopeful this is a long lasting effect. I am not afraid to go to sleep tonight. I will keep you posted. Hoping we all can find an answer and be PF!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 9th, 2011 at 10:11am
Hey Julie,

That's great news...  Near as I can tell, this regimen reaches maximum effectiveness after two days of use.  Please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Mar 9th, 2011 at 10:56am
Last febuary I didnt have my usual CH's and couldn't work out why - until now. I was eating smoked salmon and poached eggs on toast for breakfast most mornings after my run ( bought the salmon reduced and would freeze it ). So I have started using the D3 and omega fish oil and within 24 hrs I am only having low grade shadows that come and go instead of the annoying heavy shadow that lasts all day, lets see if my 12-15am demon arrives tonight.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Powermonkey on Mar 9th, 2011 at 2:34pm
Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum but I've been lurking for a few months.

I decided to try to the D3 regimen after reading this thread.  I've been at it for 4 days so far, and went from being in near constant pain from shadows and taking serious attacks at around midnight to... almost NOTHING.  I get an occasional, very mild, brief shadow every now and then, but aside from that, I'm pain free.  Quality of life has improved dramatically.

I've been taking 10,000 IUs of D3 a day in the form of 1 5,000 IU tablet in the morning, and one in the evening.

I won't rule out the possibility that I'm nearing the end of a cycle, but I'm honestly not willing to quit taking the d3 tablets to find out.  If anything changes, I will post in this thread.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Mar 9th, 2011 at 4:36pm
Welcome to the boards Monkey, great news on the Vitamin D front. This is getting a little hard to ignore, do keep posting on your progress.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 9th, 2011 at 10:38pm
Oxyrunner, Powermonkey,

Thanks for the "How Gozit" updates on your experience with this regimen.

I grew up here in the Pacific Northwest in the Puget Sound area so smoked salmon is always a regular.  I used to smoke my own and may start doing that again.

I like my smoked salmon on a toasted English Muffin with a big dollop of Dill Sauce topped with a slice of tomato and a slab of Tillamook sharp cheddar cheese.  I stick the whole contraption under a broiler to warm the smoked salmon and melt the Tillamook.  Wash that down with a cold  Pilsner Urquell or Alaskan Amber and you've got a meal fit for a king.

As far as the Vitamin D3 dosing goes, take a look at the attached paper by Dr Peter J Lewis, MD on vitamin D(3) Deficiency I found a few weeks ago.  It's an eye-opener.

Take care and please keep the updates coming.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Vitamin_D_deficiency.pdf (41 KB | 132 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dereksgirl on Mar 10th, 2011 at 12:38am
Hurting hair’ during childhood (pain in the scalp when hair is brushed or combed)
shivers down my spine...
My 5th child (4yrs old) complains about this alot. I knew in the back of my mind it wasn't right, but couldn't imagine how "silly" I would sound as a mom if I mentioned it to a doctor! ALWAYS TRUST YOUR GUT  :) (He is also tired alot-I give him a liquid vitamin, but it hasn't helped as much as I would like.)

His poor little body isn't gettin what it needs...
Thanks for sharing that link.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Mar 11th, 2011 at 3:21am
Well just to update you all - 12-15am never happened, slept right through  :D . Only the odd little shadow. It could be that I was coming to the end of the cycle but I usually have shorter lived CH's getting all the time less intense and shorter lived until the final one lasts only 15 minutes, then they stop. This time they have stopped dead  ;D ;D. I'm gonna keep this regime up, oh and I may just have some smoked salmon and egg for breakfast.
Happy days

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Mar 11th, 2011 at 7:08am
This is my 7th day taking the cal-mag-D3. I did up my dose of the D up to 8,200 IU the 5th day, along with 10 mg and 1 benadryl at bedtime, as I was having shadows during the day, and light kip 4 attacks at night. Last night was my first PF night! (for this cycle which was in it's 12th day) I am convinced this works! Back in Nov of last year my GP had told me I was low on D. My bloodwork says vitamin D 25-OH Total 35 ng/ml. She advised me to start 2,000 IU extra D a day, but I bought the bottle and foolishly never started them. I live in Fla, but I also work in a dimly light rooms performing ultrasounds all day. Isn't it amazing that CH just may be caused by vit D defficiency, after all the years we may have suffered and it was so easily prevented? Please, everyone keep us updated on your progress on this regime, and to everyone who has posted their progress, thank you sooooo much!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Mar 11th, 2011 at 8:30am
Also, keep in mind that even if you do get an a adequate amount of sunlight, as we grow older, our bodies are not able to process the sun into vitamin D as easily, according to my doc. I am anxious to have my levels tested again after being on the extra D3. I think a little caution is advised that we don't get to MUCH D, although I think it takes more than 3 months at high intake to cause problems. I intend to gradually reduce my dose.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 11th, 2011 at 11:41am
Julie,

Thanks again for two excellent posts.  Having a medical professional like you posting on this thread is adding the kind of feedback we need to hear. 

If you go through the attachment I added to this thread in post #73 you'll see both the therapeutic and maintenance dosage for vitamin D3 as well as the new target 25(OH)D3 levels suggested by Dr. Lewis.

He lists the following levels for 25(OH)D as a practical guide to diagnosis and management. The following 25(OH)D levels are in nmol/L:

  • <100 = Deficient
  • 100-200 = Optimal
  • 135-225 = Normal in sunny countries
  • 500+ = Potentially toxic (this would require a sustained daily intake >/= 40,000 IU)

[Note: To convert from nmol/L to ng/ml, divide by 2.5]

Take care and thanks again for the great post,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ICY on Mar 11th, 2011 at 2:12pm
Well I have finally got my finger out and been to the health shop only D3 could find though was 10ug so will be starting on a low dose, ordered some 5000iu but gotta wait for them to be sent to me.

Will post results over next few days, heres hoping :)

thanks Pete :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by River_Rat on Mar 11th, 2011 at 5:41pm
Hello everyone, it's been a long time since I've been on, almost forgot what they felt like, last night I couldn't even load a syringe my eye swelled shut and I begain to remember what a 9 or 10 was, I've been getting hit with 4's and 5's over the last couple weeks and was just hoping they would pass, I should know better I've been dancing for almost 30 years now. I went and grabbed D3 5000 and Omega3 1200 this morning. Starting today, I took 10K D3 and 3600 Omega 3 this morning and feel pretty good about my chances. Love you Batch I will keep you updated.......Norm

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ICY on Mar 12th, 2011 at 7:53pm
Day 2 of trying the new regime of 3000mg omega3 and 1500iu D3 have resulted in a virtually pain free day, I am currently in the second lot of Pred tapers, and the last 5 days onwards them have been tough, I am now down to the penultimate day of current taper and feeling quite good, still have a mild headache but nothing I cant cope with.

There looks to be some improvment and the only change is the D3 and Omega3.

This is possibly a coincidence as last year my cycle ended in March, so will keep taking for a couple of weeks then drop them and see if this horrid creature returns, if so then I am hooked on these suppliments for ever :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by River_Rat on Mar 13th, 2011 at 10:24am
UPDATE AS PROMISED;

Day one; Took 10,000 i.u D3 and 3600 Omega3 fish oil, I had nothing until about 10pm then got nailed with a kip 6-7 it lasted 20-25 min, fell asleep and slept all night (nice) until my unual 6am

Day two, had a shadow most of the day but then at about 4 I decide to have a little Vodka (I haven't drank in about 6 weeks) after about 3 drinks the shadow went away and I got very drunk (FUN), went to bed and slept all night, I just woke up a few minutes ago and my head is clear, not even a shadow.

Day three; TBD FEELING GREAT. Headed to Wisconsin Dells in a few minutes I will update more when I get back, or if I can get online I will update while I'm there.

You Da Man Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Mar 13th, 2011 at 5:05pm
I am seeing a recurring pattern with everyone here who has tried this. Day one on the regimen, the intensity of the attacks seems to be going down by about half. Then on day two, everyone is posting that they are practically pain free. I mean, every. single. person. This is amazing!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 13th, 2011 at 8:39pm
I was talking to a friend yesterday who gets regular migraine headaches and went on D3 (2,000 IU/daily) two years ago.  She said her incidence of getting them went from from dozens per year to just a couple per year.  She further told me her M.D. was shocked that her D3 levels were within normal range.  He went on to say that only one other of his patients had normal levels, every other patient was far below normal.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dashawn on Mar 13th, 2011 at 8:41pm
First I just want to say hello. I have been almost CH free for 4 years and got my first headache this past Thursday. I honestly believe it has something to do with the changing of the seasons as Daylight savings time is today. So I cam across this thread and I started it on Friday.
I normally take a 1200mg fish oil everyday and have been taking it for the past 3 years. So Friday I went and for some Vitamin D3. Here's my schedule

Friday
4800 mg fish oil
15,000 IU of Vitamin D3
1 headache at 11:00pm
took 100mg Imitrex

Saturday
4800 mg Fish Oil
15,000 IU of Vitamin D3
1 headache at 10:30pm
took 100mg Imitrex

Sunday
4800 mg fish oil
15,000 IU of vitamin D3
1 headache at 12:30pm
took 100mg Imitrex

One thing I noticed is that my headaches are less severe. And they don't last as long. Also I noticed that the patterns are real sporadic. I'll let you all know if I get a headache tonight. I'm trying to take detailed notes on the time and how long they last.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by red ryder on Mar 15th, 2011 at 9:28am
Just wanted to let everyone know I have gone 2 weeks without a headache after starting this formula. My cycle usualy goes around 6-8 weeks this time only 2 weeks with headaches before starting the D3 etc... and none after the second day of taking the full amounts Batch recommends. I am starting to taper the verap down from 400 and now at 240 and still no headaches. The only other thing I am on is 6 mg melatonin at night.

In my 17 years of headaches this is by far the easiest cycle ever. I have no doubt there is something to this formula. Thanks for all your hard work and research Batch. I can't wait to try a cold beer in a week or so!!!!!!     Jay

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 15th, 2011 at 10:39am
Hey Jay,

That's great news!  Come up on Skype when you're ready and I'll join you in knocking back a cold brew face to face.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by red ryder on Mar 15th, 2011 at 2:39pm
Don't have the Skype yet. Need to get more tech. savy!! Again batch thanks I will let you know how the beer test goes in the next couple of weeks.    Jay

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dazza on Mar 15th, 2011 at 10:53pm
I live in New Zealand, the stongest 3D you can buy is 1000iu here so ordered some 5000iu on line from the USA only to have them held back  at Auckland international mail center. They say anything over 1000iu is prescription only  >:(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 16th, 2011 at 3:52am
I've been taking 1000iU for a while, but really noticed my CHs have drastically dropped off over summer as I spend a lot more time outside, which with the bright sunlight we get here in NZ will mean that my body is also making lots of D3.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by River_Rat on Mar 16th, 2011 at 7:14pm
UPDATE AS PROMISED

Day 6, just got back from Wis Dells, had a couple shadows thats about it, I'm sure the chlorine from the inside water parks didn't help. Drank some dark beer, regular beer, vodka, red wine, and a bunnch of other stuff and the head is clear. I'm calling this a fix, I know my body, I either get hit or I don't and I'm not.

Good Luck to everyone I'm out ;D

I'll be back if I get hit again!

Thanks again Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Mar 17th, 2011 at 2:45pm
Hi Batch

Thanks, the vitamin-d is amazing. I'm still CH free, now for 2˝ years.  :)

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Mar 17th, 2011 at 4:37pm
A painful reminder to everyone on this board, we should not be so swift to disregard potential new treatments. Batch was not the first one to suggest Vit D as a potential treatment, the first person to suggest it was driven from the board a sa charlaton.

I don't claim there wasn't sufficient blame on both sides of the coin...if you feel driven to immediatley respond to this post....ask yourself if maybe you could have responded differently to the original post, and many people could have availed themselves of an effective treatment much sooner.

Won't argue the point...just something to think about.

Joe

edited to fix spelling

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Mar 17th, 2011 at 5:16pm
Hi Joe

I want to apologize my part that the vitamin D debate went off track. I will hope everybody will try the Batch formular and hopefully get the same result as I did.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MorDog on Mar 17th, 2011 at 6:16pm
Hello all,

Background: 16 years  episodic, went 25 months PF until the middle of this past February.  Mostly the night hits but sometimes just before or just after bed.  Also shadows, zaps, and the occasional regular headache.

I just read through this thread.  First let me say I am so glad this has worked for so many.  Coincidently I had already been taking Fish Oil with Omega 3 1000 mg and 2000 IU of D3 for some time just for the health benefits.  However, I still started my cycle and I am in my 5th week.  The only difference I have had this time is I seem to skip days with hits.  I might have 1 or 2 hits a day for 3 or 4 days in a row then be PF for 1 - 3 days until the hits come back.  I noticed the amounts you all are taking of the supplements are higher than what I am currently taking so I am going to try the higher doses and see what happens.  Hopefully I can get the same results as the rest of you.  I know we are all different and this may not work for me but I am willing to give it a go.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Mar 17th, 2011 at 6:29pm
Well, Nhs, I am sure most of us realize Batch did not invent Vitamin D. :P  He was only stating what is working for him. I am very thankful that he started this thread. I believe this concept of how low blood serum vitamin D may be playing a part in CH, and the ca-mag-d-fish oil suggestion  be repeated OFTEN, or archived in an easy to find link like Johnny recommended. Alot of us come and go, and when we come here, we are looking for ways to deal with the beast. Through the years, I have used and appreciated so much advice given here; Barry suggesting taurine, Johnny and Linda Howell helping me to understand how to use the high flow oxygen in the most effective way and so many other helpful suggestions. Remember we are all here to help eachother!
I am still having pretty good luck with this regimen, I Have'nt had over a kip 4 since the fourth day of it. I'm sleeping better, and have had a BIG decrease in the frequency as well as intensity of hits. As Guiseppi stated it's not a cure, but in my opinion it's pretty close. Thanks again Batch!! :)  MorDog, I think you will notice an improvement on the higher dosage. I didn't notice a HUGE effect until I upped my dose to 8300 MG of D3, I did however, order a home testing kit recommended by the vitamin D council  to take in the next month or two.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Mar 18th, 2011 at 4:22am
Hi Folks
Batch & I have been corresponding by PM & Email on this regime for some time as I wanted to get a good grip on just what Batch did in his research & his documentation & as I stated earlier in this thread

I started on a magnesium/calcium regime in April 2006 & had varying results with remission from high cycles (I'm chronic) until around July 2008 it was about that time that the Magnesium/Calcium supplements I was taking changed when the manufacturer added Vitamin D3 to the mix, I have now been 880 days in low cycle with only shadows & the occasional ice pick jab.”
What I haven’t been able to achieve is a stabilisation of my pH levels, I bought some Urine/Saliva test strips to monitor my pH levels & stayed away from food or substances that would raise my pH into the alkaline area but with no success.
The possible reason for this is I have gone into a high cycle just as I started monitoring but with some promising results; I got a minor hit 19/2/2011 at about a KIP 3 missed a couple of days then hit again & so on but only getting 2 hits that reached the KIP 8, the interesting thing is that I think this cycle may be coming to an end as I haven’t got a hit in over 34 hours only heavy shadowing.
If this is indeed the end to this cycle it will be the shortest high cycle I have had since going chronic back in late 2004 the previous shortest high cycle was 50 days, this one currently 27 days . & this has never happened in the past before the D3.

My Total best PF period was 940 days with only shadows & the occasional ice pick jab.

Another point that Batch made was the weight loss he achieved believed to have come from the fish oil sups’ I normally weigh 62 kilo dripping wet & I have dropped to 56.5 Kilo so I stopped taking the fish oil before I disappear down the drain pipe while showering.

What will be interesting is how long a remission Batch gets with this regime “ I hope its forever” but only time will tell & what is important is that if we can get lengthy remission periods & reduce the length of time we are dancing then that puts us in a better position than we could have hoped before.

PF time people.
Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wimsey1 on Mar 18th, 2011 at 8:02am
As those of you who have read my recent posts know, I went back into chronic cycle when my neuro decided to "test" the effectiveness of the verapamil I was taking. At the time I was taking 400mg/day and only getting hit once or twice every 3-4 days. So, down I went, over a 4 week period, to 320mg/day, and whooop, there it is! Daily hits; nighttime hits; chronic cycle ramping up into full swing.

So...I'm back up to 400mg/day, and before I try to go even higher on Verapamil, I'm going with Batch's regime.  I had begun the D3, now I've added the Fish Oil and Ca-Mg-Zn tabs as well. I'll let you know how it goes. Blessings. lance

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 18th, 2011 at 8:12am
Best wishes for PF, Lance!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 20th, 2011 at 4:16pm
Hey Barry,

Thanks for the kind words.  Measuring saliva pH can be a crap shoot at times as pH levels can and will jump around throughout the day and from day to day.  The best way to determine systemic pH using saliva pH as an analog is to do at least three measurements at the same time each day and average them. The sampling technique is also important.

In an attempt to characterize the role of arterial pH in the pathophysiology of cluster headache triggering and abort mechanisms, I conducted a small test by measuring the pH of my saliva before a cluster headache and five minutes after an abort with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  I also did this over a two-week period to see if there were any trends without any overt change in diet.

I started by collecting saliva pH measurements three times a day as an analog of arterial pH in order to generate a daily average.

I then measured my saliva pH after awakening with a cluster headache and again following the abort with this method of oxygen therapy plus 5 minutes to allow for the saliva pH to equalize with arterial pH.  The results of this two-week test are illustrated in the graphic below.

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The green line is my daily average saliva pH computed from measurements taken in the morning prior to breakfast, mid-day prior to lunch, and in the evening prior to going to bed.  I rinsed my mouth with water and waited 5 minutes prior to each of these pH measurements to ensure I minimized the effect of any contaminants that could skew the results in one direction or another.  For example if you take a swig of Coke or Pepsi then take a saliva measurement it will read very acidic with a low pH.

The red dots and lines in the above graphic represent my saliva pH measurements taken as soon as I awoke with a cluster headache and the blue dots and lines represent the saliva pH measurement taken 5 minutes after the abort with oxygen therapy.

All the cluster headaches occurred while sleeping and were between pain level 3 and 4 on the 10-Point headache (Kip) pain scale. I aborted all of them with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation (35-40 liters/minute) in 3 to 4 minutes to a pain free state.

I also added pulse oximetry readings starting on Day-7 taking readings at the same time as the saliva pH measurements.  The results are what I expected.  I suspect if I would have had use of a capnometer, I would have seen significantly higher ETCO2 readings than normal upon awakening with a cluster headache.  I also expect these ETCO2 reading would be clearly higher than after the abort with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  The reason for the low ETCO2 readings following an abort with this method of oxygen therapy is simple.   This method of oxygen therapy casts of CO2 faster than the body generates it through normal metabolism.

Days 5,10, and 11 I had no CH.  During the evening of Day 14 I had three CH.  This coincided with the day where my daily average saliva pH was lowest.

As you can see from all of the nights where I had a cluster headache this method of oxygen was able to elevate the pH of my saliva on every attempt.

Granted this data is clearly anecdotal with me being the only study subject.  Having said that, the data and results were consistent with what we expected.

Influencing systemic pH with diet and calcium citrate supplements is a horse of a different color as this process is largely metabolic in nature so it occurs at a much slower pace taking several hours where elevating arterial pH with hyperventilation takes only a few minutes.

There's enough medical evidence from a few studies to suggest calcium citrate and citric acid from lemonade or limeade acts as a buffer on the stomach's gastric juices and contents to raise their pH from 2.0 up to a pH of 4.9.  There are also a sufficient number of papers claiming a diet of alkaline forming foods can raise systemic pH.  See the following link:

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Ultimately, anything that can raise systemic pH to the high end of the normal pH of 7.35 to 7.45 or above should stimulate vasoconstriction and that should help lessen the frequency and intensity of cluster headache.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 20th, 2011 at 6:24pm
THAT GRAPH IS BEAUTIFUL, BATCH, BRAVO!
What did you use to measure the pH? Litmus paper? If so what kind?
-Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 21st, 2011 at 12:51am
Hey Gary,

I used the pH test strips from pHION at the following link:

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Shoot me an email and I'll send you the excel worksheet Michael Berger developed that I used during this test.  Update the date then fill in the data and it will build the graph automatically.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by River_Rat on Mar 21st, 2011 at 10:06am
Good Morning everyone, well the 10K I.U. of D3 and 3600 Omega 3 fish oil is started to wearing off. I was great and HA free, just a few shadows.

Short Recap........Started getting hit the mid to end of Feb, nothing big just a few short lived Kip 4's and 5's, I didn't really do anything about it until around the first part of March then started taking 400mg Verap, 200 in the morning and 200 at night no real change still had the Kip 4's - 5's short lived 20-25 minutes then on March 10th got slammed with a kip 9/10 that jarred my memory as the what these things can do. I logged on and read this thread. March 11th I started the D3 and Fish Oil as suggested and was pretty much clear, couple shadows k1to k2 but nothing to bad. I thought I was fixed, everything was fine for about 5 days so I was pf until the 17th then got slammed with a kip 8-9 after that one slipped away I had a kip 4ish shadow that never left, during this never ending kip 4 it would ramped up to a 7 to 9 three to 4 times that day. The evening of the 17th I decided to doubled my verap to 960 mg and have been pf since, I'm still taking the D3 and fish oil. So right now I'm taking 10K I.U. D3 and 3600 Omega 3 Fish oil and 960 MG Verap and so far so good I've now been PF for 4 days and nights. What are your thoughts on taking 960mg of Verap? Thank's in advance for you comments.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kimmie on Mar 21st, 2011 at 2:24pm
[size=14][/size]I know no question is a stupid question.
Being a 38yr old female (episodic)...

I take women's daily multi vitamins and in the summer I am constantly in the sun on the lake.
My weight is 121, so what would you recommend my beginning dosage od D3 and fish oil supplements start out to be safe?
I am not in cycle now, but loom the seasonal changes in Spring and Fall.
Here in Texas, as of current the air allergen quality is at it's highest (12).

I take Paxil, Alprazolam, and Remeron daily for anxiety and wonder about swinging in these supplements may do.

-Kimmie

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 21st, 2011 at 6:17pm
Hey Kimmie,

You're right... No such thing as a dumb question.

The short answer is 5,000I.U. vitamin D3/day as a maintenance dose and 10,000I.U./day for a therapeutic effect.  There shouldn't be any problem taking either dose with your other med's, vitamins. In fact, the vitamin D3 may help you ween off of the anxiety med's and help combat any allergy as well.  Magic stuff...  Free too if you go out in the sun in a swim suit for 30 minutes...  The skin can make the equivalent of 10,000I.U. in that short amount of time provided you're not using any sun block.

If you go through the attachment I added to this thread in post #73 you'll see both the therapeutic and maintenance dosage for vitamin D3 as well as the new target 25(OH)D3 levels suggested by Dr. Lewis and a lot more.

He lists the following levels for 25(OH)D3 as a practical guide to diagnosis and management. Take these figures or the paper along if you see your physician for a test.  25(OH)D3 is the vitamin D3 metabolite found in the blood. The following 25(OH)D3 levels are in nmol/L:

  • <100 = Deficient
  • 100-200 = Optimal
  • 135-225 = Normal in sunny countries
  • 500+ = Potentially toxic (this would require a sustained daily intake >/= 40,000 IU)

[Note: To convert from nmol/L to ng/ml, divide by 2.5]

Most of us on vitamin D3 are also taking 2000mg. to 3000mg. of the Omega 3 Fish Oil and two of the calcium citrate tablets formulated with vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc.

My wife is on this complete regimen and she doesn't have CH.  She's got more pep, getup & go and bounces around like a kid.  Me too for that matter.  This is also a healthy heart regimen you can take year round.

Download and read the paper by Dr. Lewis...  Very telling.

Take care and let us know what happens when your usual episodic cycle normally starts.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 4:30am
Hi, just wanted to update you on how things are going - I started taking 10,000 i.u 3D, 2000mg omega 3 and 1 cal mag. CH stopped but the dosing caused constant nausea. I cut the dose by half and over the week the CH gradually came back until yesterday when I have 4, all about a kip 4 - 5 and all lasting nearly 2 - 3 hours!!!!! making it really difficult to work. ( does anyone else find they can't wear glasses whilst having a CH? ) So I am now trying 4000 i.u 3D, 1000mg omega, and 1 cal mag with breakfast and 6000 i.u 3D, 1000mg omega 3 and 1 cal mag with dinner, fingers crossed.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by skeevedout on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:30am
Hey all-
Just started with 10,000 IU D3 and 3000 Omega 3 Fish oil. I will post daily results for the next couple of days.
Best Regards to All

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by red ryder on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 4:36pm
Beer test passed!!!!! Thanks everyone for the help, Batch I think you are definately on to something here with this formula. I was ready this time with the O2 and 25 lmp regulator. Wow only 2 weeks with the headaches all knocked out with the o2 at night, then started Batch's formula and nothing after the second night of his full strength formula. I promiss to stick around  this time, to see others trials with this and help when I can.   Jay

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by skeevedout on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 9:14am
Hey all-
Reporting on my first night after using 10,000 u.i. B3 and 3000 u.i. of Omega 3. I got hit 3 times last night. The first being the most severe at a 7 or 8, the second a 5 or 6 and the third a 4 or 5 (1:30 am). Slept the rest of the night which IS an improvement. Took my B3 and Omega 3 doses this AM. I will report back tomorrow AM on tonight's results.
Best to All.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 9:24am

Quote:
Magic stuff...  Free too if you go out in the sun in a swim suit for 30 minutes...  The skin can make the equivalent of 10,000I.U. in that short amount of time provided you're not using any sun block.

Be forewarned, however - not the best method for extremely white guys like me who have just had their fourth basal cell carcinoma removed via surgery.

I think the capsules are a better alternative for my ilk.

Our parents were more concerned with keeping us out of the pool for an hour after we ate (lest we get "a cramp") than they were about keeping our basal layer of skin from being repeatedly damaged by the sun.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kimmie on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 12:43pm
Going to the supplement store :)

I'm assuming it is probably better to start my regimene now until waiting for cycle.

Thanks Batch! :)
xoxo

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 9:12pm
Kimmie

This is the sort of thing we need to see happening, if by taking these sups you can defer or put off completely an episode it can only give others hope.
Fingers crossed that it goes well for you young lady.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by skeevedout on Mar 24th, 2011 at 8:03am
Good Morning-
Well, last night (after two days of 3000 UI Omega 3 and 10,000 UI D3)-I had 4 visits from the beast, the first was nothing, a KIP 2 (at most) before bed, second hit was off the hook (9) and when it left I had a dull pain behind my eye and sinus till the next hit came (6 or 7). Got a few hours sleep till I was woken by one more mild hit (3 or 4, enough to wake me up). I am wondering wether or not I should continue w/the 3000 UI Omega 3 and the 10,000 UI D3.............

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 24th, 2011 at 10:57am
skeevedout,

Thanks for the feed-back.  Are you also taking the calcium citrate tablets formulated with vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc?  More that a few have found adding a couple of these tablets a day helps. 

There are other ways of measuring the effectiveness of this regimen...  For example, is your oxygen therapy working better with faster aborts? Do you feel better in general?

We're still collecting data on this regimen and although several CH'ers are experiencing a reduction in the frequency and intensity of their CH in the first two days after starting it, others appear to be taking a little longer.

As to continuing or not...  that's your call.  Like all other types of treatments for our disorder, none are 100% effective. 

To my way of thinking, it's all a matter of assessing the risk-benefit ratio. 

If the risk of harmful side effects is low and the benefits appear to offer only a marginal improvement...  it's a push.

If the risk of harmful side effects is relatively high and the benefits appear marginal...  you need to make a decision...  is the treatment worth taking?

If the risk of harmful side effects is low and the benefits appear high...  It's a no-brainer.

Would you continue to take verapamil if you were still experiencing the same number of heavy hits a night?

What I can say is this is a very healthy regimen with no harmful side effects and a high upside potential to keep you as healthy as possible.  My wife is on this same regimen and she doesn't have CH.  She feels great and bounces around the house and yard like a kid.  Me too for that matter.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by skeevedout on Mar 24th, 2011 at 11:19am
Batch-
Thanks for chiming in, I am not taking the calcium citrate tablets formulated with vitamin D3, (Is this the 10,000 I.U. w/the calcium citrate in one tab?), the magnesium nor the zinc. I will pick some of this up today. I did indeed decide to do another daily dose of 10,000 IU D3 and 3000 IU of Omega 3. I am not on any O2 or Verapimil (Doc gave me a script for Sumartripan (six single-shot inhalers) which worked like a charm while I had them (waiting to hear back about a refill [Insurance will only cover 6 a month but my doc says he is going to try to change that for me]). Have had CH since mid-20s, 49 now and over the last 10-15 years, attacks are less frequent and more manageable (till 2 weeks ago). Last bout w/the beast was 3 years ago. I will post tonight's adventures tomorrow AM.
Thanks Again and Best Wishes to All

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 24th, 2011 at 12:33pm
Hey Skeevedout.

Good question.  The complete regimen is actually a combination of two separate regimens I've used to lower the frequency and intensity of my CH...

I originally started using them to improve the abort times with oxygen therapy during high cycles where the aborts with oxygen therapy took longer than usual.

We think the anti-inflammatory regimen works to reduce the neurogenic inflammation in and around the trigeminal nerve that's associated with the cluster headache syndrome...   The buffering regimen elevates arterial pH making it more alkaline in the hopes of reducing the vasodilation also associated with the cluster headache syndrome. A low arterial pH (too much acid) tends to trigger vasodilation and that aggravates CH.

The anti-inflammatory regimen consists of 10,000I.U. vitamin D3 and 2000mg to 3000mg Omega 3 Fish Oil taken daily.

The buffering regimen consists of 2 to 3 of the calcium citrate tablets formulated with vitamin D3 (800I.U. in two tablets) magnesium and zinc washed down with citric acid from lemonade or limeade taken each day.  I've also used margarita mix as it has additional citric acid. 

The combination of calcium citrate and citric acid acts as a buffer on the stomach's gastric juice and contents elevating the mix from a pH of 2.0 up to 3.9.  The magnesium helps in this process as well.

Hope this helps clarify what I take on a daily basis.

Regarding oxygen therapy... it is the most effective and least invasive cluster headache abortive available to us.  It has no harmful side effects.  It's also the least expensive abortive and there's no limit on insurance coverage like there is on imitrex due to it's cost. 

If used at flow rates that support hyperventilation, oxygen therapy can result in abort times that rival the subcutaneous injections of imitrex (sumatriptan succinate).  I would typically abort my CH in 3 to 4 minutes with this method of oxygen therapy if I caught the CH early.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by skeevedout on Mar 24th, 2011 at 1:20pm
Thanks again Batch !!!
Just heard back from the Doc AND my Insurance Co. Insurance Co. says any more than six doses of the Sumartriptan is DANGEROUS/NOT SAFE, (I think that they just don't want to pay the $225 for six measly doses) so no more "Magic" cure for me. Doc is going to prescribe Verapamil. I have an appointment w/a Neurologist Mon. (like finally meeting the wizard of Oz) - will see what he has to say. Might have to look into O2 soon.
Thanks Again/Best Regards

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 24th, 2011 at 2:00pm

skeevedout wrote on Mar 24th, 2011 at 1:20pm:
Might have to look into O2 soon.


Don't just think about oxygen, do it. You'll soon see why so many of us who use oxygen so effectively to abort our CHs sing it's praises. Having used oxygen to abort CHs for over six months there is no way I want to go anywhere without a cylinder knowing I can be pain free in minutes (average is under 6 minutes) with no side effects.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Mar 24th, 2011 at 6:32pm
I think I have finally got my dose right and am now pain free  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif] . I take 6000 i.u D3, 1000mg omega 3 and 500mg calcium, 200mg magnesium with fruit juice at breakfast and the same again with dinner. I have no nausea, CH, or shadows, in fact I haven't felt this good since I dont know when.
Thanks Batch for the advise, it really helped.   [smiley=dankk2.gif]
I know this works because when I halved the dose my CH came back and within 2 days of taking the full dose again they stopped. I'm not brave enough to do it again - not for a while anyway.
I really hope everyone that reads this thread will give this a try - you may have to adjust the doses to suit you but in the end you have nothing to loose.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Mar 24th, 2011 at 11:25pm

oxyrunner wrote on Mar 24th, 2011 at 6:32pm:
in the end you have nothing to loose.


Exactly: you will never know if you like banana ice cream if you never try it  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by skeevedout on Mar 25th, 2011 at 7:28am
Same, same as last night. Today I will add calcium citrate, magnesium and zinc........

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Mar 25th, 2011 at 10:37pm
I have been TOTALLY PF a whole week now, even got to celebrate with a few beers yesterday!  I've been on the supps a total of 3 weeks today. According to my notes, I began taking 7,300 IU Of D3, 1200 mg calcium, 2,000 mg of fish oil, 750 mg magnesium, 50 mg zinc, Within 3 days the hits were fewer, and no more than a kip 4. I upped my D3 to 8,300 IU after the 5th day of beginning the supps, and started taking benadryl and 10 mg melatonin at night, after which I had a vast improvement where I was having PF nights about every couple of nights, with the hits I did get being so light I didn't even need my oxygen. 14 days after starting the supps, I was totally PF, This was only 3 weeks into my cycle-my last cycle lasted 8 weeks. Oh, and as an added benefit, I am sleeping more soundly than I ever have! I will begin lowering my vitamin D dose to about 5,000 IU until I take my vit d level.  I am a believer, thanks, Batch!  [smiley=clap2.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 25th, 2011 at 10:40pm
Anybody know where to get D3 in bulk, i.e., at a decent price? 10,000 IU per day gets a bit pricey at retail.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Mar 25th, 2011 at 10:58pm
walmart has their brand calcium citrate 630mg with 500 IU vitamin D (in 2 caplets) ALOT cheaper, than the name brands, although they are ALOT harder to swallow (horse pills).  They also have the 2,000 IU softgels D3-in a twin pack pretty cheap. And a multivitamin would add probably 800 IU of D 3  (mine does) I take a calcet petities 750 IU  vitamin D with 600 mg calcium per 3 tabs. Another easy-to swallow one is Citracal petites-500 IU of d, 400mg calcium in 2 tabs.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dereksgirl on Mar 26th, 2011 at 12:11am
we get ours at Costco as Batch suggested. Good Brand name for a decent price. Not sure if there are any Costco's in your area though.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 26th, 2011 at 1:59pm
Oxyrunner, Julie,

More success stories...  We're starting to get the statistically significant numbers needed to grab attention among the leaders in the field of neurology specializing in CH... 

This is good!  In the mean time, we still have a few who are not experiencing the same favorable results from this regimen as others so I don't want to be too exuberant.  That said, it does appear we're on to a very healthy and inexpensive alternative when it comes to CH preventatives.

I'm still running the numbers and so far it looks like this regimen is well ahead of verapamil in effectiveness at better than 70% effective.  The Cluster Headache survey that 1134 of us took in 2008 indicates 371 CH'ers out of the 725 (49.7%) who took verapamil, rated it effective.

Brew,

I'm half Scott/Scotch and a member of the Over the Hill Gang on a mostly fixed income so I look for good deals.  I figure my daily cost of the combined regimen of Omega 3 Fish Oil, vitamin D3, and calcium citrate+ shown below at 16 cents. 

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I buy these items at Costco.  Sam's Club has some of these vitamins and minerals under Member's Mark label.  You can buy the Kirkland brand over the Internet from Amazon or go to Puritan's Pride web site. They carry the same items.

Costco has the best deal on the 5,000 IU vitamin D3 softgels
$6.99 after $2 OFF Trunature® Vitamin D3 5000 IU Extra-strength 500 Softgels  < 3 cents/day 20 cents/week

Sam's Club:
Member's Mark® Vitamin D-3 5000 IU - 400 softgels  $10.68  < 6 cents/day, <38 cents/week

Puritan's Pride SUNVITE™ MAXIMUM STRENGTH VITAMIN D (D-3) 5000 IU
500 softgels for $14 <6 cents/day,  <40 cents/week

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 26th, 2011 at 3:09pm
That helps quite a bit, Pete. I've been paying too much for D3.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Mar 26th, 2011 at 4:14pm
Hi

If you don't take vitamin-d softgel's, it's very important that you take the D together with your meal, because vitamin-D is a fat-soluble vitamin.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Mar 28th, 2011 at 5:32pm
Why is that? To keep from upset stomache? or to absorb  them better? Sorry for not understanding what you mean. I usually have to be careful what I take, as I am very stomache sensitive...I have had no problem taking the supps, although I did notice I had a problem on St. Patricks Day with the corned beef. I really belive nitrates are very bad during the cluster cycle, and afte reading about ph on batch's posts, I have been trying to eat all alot more alkaline forming foods. (which are better for me anyways)
  Batch, I really hope we are finding an answer...although I don't think the medical field will be to anxious to do a trial... doesn't make the pharmaceutical companies tons of money like verapamil and prednisone.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Mar 28th, 2011 at 6:29pm
Hi Julie

Yes, the vitamin-D needs fat to get absorbed.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Mar 28th, 2011 at 11:08pm
For some time now I have been trying to get a better balance of my pH but to no avail so a little looking around brought me to the food list below.
Breakfast this morning was fresh broccoli & a banana, saliva & urine pH before breakfast was 5.5 "acidic" one hour later pH for both was 6.4 "just below neutral".
I am going to continue with the Magnesium/Calcium/D3 as I have had such good luck with it over the last three years but will concentrate my food intake on the foods that leave an alkaline residual, I'll update how i am going .

A list of Alkaline foods can be found here or just google Alkaline foods.

Cheers
Barry

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wimsey1 on Mar 29th, 2011 at 7:37am
I've been taking the D3, Fish Oil, and Ca/Mg?Zn tabs, but...while I'm sticking with the first two, I think I react badly to the Mg. This is the second time in a couple of years I've tried Mg and both times, I think it induced a more intense CH cycle and experience. No problems with D3 and Fish Oil, and they may actually be helping although I'm still getting a daily hit. I know that's not so bad (boy do I know) but I want to see how I do when I drop the Mg. If I find anything significant I'll post here. Prayers for us all! Blessings. lance

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Mar 31st, 2011 at 9:42pm
Batch,
Thanks for your original post and research into this possible treatment for the beast. I don't post here much but I recently started another cycle and I'm always looking for something new to try. I hate medications and refuse to take them, even if that means suffering the pain of the CH (which I do about 99% of the time). I normally get hit once in the morning and once in mid-late afternoon. I'm going to head to the nearest pharmacy tomorrow and pick up the items for this cocktail and see what it does for me. I'll post my findings in a week or so once the mixture has time to run its course.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:58pm
Pete!

Isn't it time you give Peter (Sandor) and Arne (May) a call.....

Michael

And.....  back to my obscurity.... and flying sailplans...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 6:36pm
Michael,

It's getting close...  A few more success stories and I'll send the letter with the latest stat's to Doctors May, Sandor, and Rozen.

Hugs to Marta, JJ and Ben.

Take care my friend, and keep soaring those big Swiss mountain waves and thermals...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 6:43pm
ClosetCHer,

Thanks for the kind words.  I share your dislike for the invasive CH meds.  As long as I've had oxygen at high enough flow rates to make for rapid aborts, I've always preferred instead to give my body what it needs to get well instead of what I wanted to prevent the pain.

Good luck with this regimen...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:48am
I'm on board too.

Just started yesterday with Vitamin D3, Omega 3 and Calcium Citrate (plus magnesium, zinc, B6 and vitamin D). All this in addition to my Flinstone multi vitamin.  :)

Silly question, is the vitamin D that's in multi-vitamins the same thing as vitamin D3? In other words, can the vitamin D in the multi-vitamin be counted towards the 10,000 IUs of D3?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:25pm
Batch/All,
Figured I'd give an update now that I've been trying the D3/Fish Oil regime since last Friday morning.

My cycle prior to starting this had been going for about a month and a half and had just started to ramp up. I was getting about around 2-3 attacks a day, fortunately only 1 was going above a KIP 5. I don't take any other type of medication, I don't have 02 right now (working on welding supply route), and I don't see a neurologist. My cycles occur in no regular pattern, last anywhere from 4-8 months, at one time I was chronic for 2 years, and have remission periods of 1 month to 1 1/2 years (the 1 1/2 years only happened once but I wish it would happen every time!)

I started on Friday by taking 10,000 IU of D3 (5 x 2,000) and 3,600 Omega 3 Fish Oil (3 x 1,200) and did that through Sunday. On Monday morning I increased the D3 to 12,000 IU.

On Friday and Saturday I had my regular 3 hits with one each day turning into a full CH (KIP level 7-8, 30 minutes long each). The other hits were mainly shadows with pain at a KIP 1-3 (very manageable). For Sunday, Monday, and today I've generally been pain free with some major shadowing. By major shadowing I mean almost all day, ranging from just a slight annoyance to the brink of transitioning into a CH. I've never experienced shadowing like this nor the feeling associated with it. The feeling is pressure/light pain on the left side of my head, right on my temple. About 5 times each day (Sun, Mon, Today) the shadowing seems to head towards a CH, sometimes increasing in pain for only a minute or so and sometimes dragging on for 30 minutes, making me wonder if it will become a headache or not. Only once, Today, did the peaking turn into a CH. The bout today lasted 30 minutes and I would describe it as a combined shadow/CH, about a KIP 6. That's the only way I can describe it because I hadn't experienced one like that before.

Since I've never experienced shadows like this nor have I been able to have 3 days PF during my cycle (minus the weird shadow/CH today), I'm assuming this is a result of the D3/Fish Oil regiment. I'll be honest and say that the constant shadowing is annoying, especially with the peaking that makes me wonder if it will turn to a CH or not. But on the other hand, I'd rather have that than 3 CHs that can possibly reach a KIP 10 (more near the end of my cycle). I'm wondering if I should increase my D3 to 15,000 IU, decrease D3, try to mix in the calcium citrate, or something else to tweak my results. Maybe too much D3 is causing the heavy shadowing or maybe I need more to eliminate the shadowing and accompanying peaks all together.

Batch/anyone have thoughts on this? I love feedback.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:48am
Hey Primetime,

Welcome to the group...  We look fwd to a followup post on your results with this regimen... 

The answer to your question is Yes, your multivitamins likely contain vitamin D3, but the amount is so low I wouldn't worry about counting it... 

For example, two of the Kirkland brand calcium citrate tablets contain 800I.U. vitamin D3 and I still take the 10,000I.U. dose of vitamin D3 softgels. A few hundred I.U. over the 10,000I.U./day of vitamin D3 won't hurt and that's still be far below the mega-dose prescribed by some physicians. 

ClosetCHer,

I don't have an answer for the increase in shadowing you're experiencing, but it does appear to fit the pattern of a reduction in the frequency and severity of CH while on this regimen... 

As far as I'm concerned, a shadow is still a headache and I shot my shadows with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  It worked... 

Regarding increasing the dose of vitamin D3, I know a few folks including my daughter who were prescribed as much as 50,000I.U. vitamin D3 twice a week PLUS 5,000I.U. a day for unrelated conditions. 

Being fat soluble with a half-live of 27 days, the metabolite of vitamin D3 stays in our systems for a good while so I'm not concerned if I miss a daily dose.

Again, in keeping with the standard disclaimer, I'm not a doctor and the material covered in this post is for information purposes only.  Please see your PCP or neurologist to discuss vitamin D3 dosing over that listed on the label. 

Just be prepared for push-back as not all physicians are up on the latest dosing recommendations for vitamin D3 deficiencies.  They may think 2000I.U. vitamin D3/day is a "High" dose.

See Reply #73 dated Mar 9th on page 3 of this thread for a download copy of the pdf article by Dr Peter J Lewis, titled: "Vitamin D deficiency: more on diagnosis and management."  You may need to have a copy of this article handy if your physician gives you one of those YGBSM looks.

Please keep us posted...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wimsey1 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 8:10am
Hey, Batch, do you have enough data yet to determine D3 dose ranges? I know 10k is the start. I'm up to 12k. You mentioned your daughter at 50k. Do you think there might be an effective range between the two? I'm going to up again today another 2k putting me at 14k/day. Still doing the fish oil as well. God bless! lance

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:36am
Batch,
Thanks for the help and the article. I'll keep my dosage of D3 between 10,000 and 15,000 IU for the next couple of weeks and note any positive or negative side effects. Like I said I'm working on the O2 situation which I hope to have resolved by the beginning of May. The problem with O2 is that I travel for work (2-3 weeks a month) and obviously can't take an 02 tank with me when the travel requires flying. I'll keep monitoring my cycle, reaction to the regime, and update the thread with my status.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:09am
Thanks Batch....

I grabbed the wrong bottle of the shelf, my Vitamin D caps are only 1000 IUs, so I guess I'll have to pop a bunch of those. LOL

I remembered the specific supplements but not the amounts, so for the first couple of days I haven't been up to the therapeutic levels yet.

I'll adjust my amounts today and follow up over the weekend.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Nants on Apr 6th, 2011 at 4:01pm
Batch, 

Please include my husband's experience as well... I posted this on the other site on 03/24:

D3 UPDATE!
After posting my last post, THAT night hubby had a mild headache but was able to sleep through it!  Yesterday some shadowing and "strange feelings/pains" BUT NO HEADACHE!!!  Two nights in a row with no Imitrex!  First "headache free day" he has had since January! Don't know what to think!      His cycle last time lasted 2 months... We are getting down to the line with ~ 3 months this time so not sure if coming off cycle now.  But this is what he is taking.

6,000 mg of fish oil - already been taking for triglycerides
15,000 IU of D3 - for a week now
300 mg of verapamil twice a day
300 mg of lithium twice a day

*** Past 3 /4 days he has tried taking between 5-10 IU of D3 during the day and then the rest at night.

He takes the fish oil, D3 and 2nd verap/lithium at dinner.

I know we aren't out of the woods yet but something is happening!  Just thought I would drop a quick update!


4/6 --  He stopped the Lithium a week ago.  As of today he has not had a headache!  Still has the shadows and mild pains but nothing full fledged!   :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 6th, 2011 at 7:04pm
Lance, ClosetCHer,

From the studies and articles I've read and data collected so far it appears the maintenance dosage for vitamin D3 is between 2,000I.U. and 5,000I.U.   I tend to agree with Dr Peter Lewis, MD from down under that 5,000I.U. of vitamin D3 is a good maintenance dose and that 10,000I.U. is a reasonable therapeutic dose with no reports of toxicity as long as there is sufficient calcium supplements taken at the same time.

From the data collected from CH'ers who are using this regimen, it appears that most of them are responding to the 10,000I.U. dose of vitamin D3 with measurable relief by 16 to 24 hours and significant relief by 40 to 48 hours with the most significant area of relief reported being a PF night's sleep.

Increasing the vitamin D3 dose above 10,000I.U. to improve the CH response has us in uncharted waters at this point.  There's just not enough data to support higher dosing rates one way or the other to improve the CH response. 

Granted there are physicians prescribing vitamin D3 as high as two doses of 50,000I.U. a week without any adverse reactions for other conditions.  However, this is usually done under controlled conditions with blood tests for the vitamin D3 metabolite, 25(OH)D3 and calcium to make sure the calcium supplements are sufficient to maintain proper levels.

If you think the full regimen of Omega 3 Fish Oil, vitamin D3, and the calcium citrate tablets with vitamin D, magnesium, and zinc is helping your CH and you want to increase the vitamin D3 dosage to improve the response, the best course of action would be to see your physician and ask for the 25(OH)D3 blood test.  The Vitamin D Council recommends that optimal health is supported by blood levels of 50-80 ng/mL (125-200nmol/L) as identified in a 25(OH)D3 vitamin D blood test.   Get this test along with a regular blood electrolyte test to make sure your calcium level is ok then repeat these tests after a month of higher vitamin D3 dosing.

If your initial vitamin D3 blood test for 25(OH)D3 shows you in the normal range of 50-80 ng/mL (125-200nmol/L), increasing the vitamin D3 dosage may not be necessary as your problem may be a low systemic pH.  In that case I would add another calcium citrate tablet to the basic regimen and start drinking homemade lemonade a couple times a day.  I've found that Baja Bob's sugar free Margarita mix works effectively as it has additional citric acid.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 7th, 2011 at 1:39am
Hey Nants,

Thanks for the update with more positive results...  It's all adding up! 

Make sure your husband takes a couple of the calcium citrate tablets formulated with vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc along with the 10,000I.U. vitamin D3 softgels. 

This is important not only as a part of the regimen for CH, but also because the body processes calcium more rapidly with vitamin D3 so you need to supplement with calcium to prevent hypocalcaemia and to keep the blood electrolytes in balance.   I take mine with a glass of orange juice.

The Vitamin D Council reports that doses of 5,000 IU per day from all sources (sun, diet and supplements) are safe for most healthy people and that there are no reports of toxicity up to 10,000 IU per day. But the Council also warns that without calcium and magnesium in sufficient quantities, vitamin D supplementation will withdraw calcium from the bone...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:47am
Hi Batch

I don't take calcium supplement, because vitamin-D increases the calcium uptake from the food. Vitamin-D don't  withdraw calcium from the bone but adds calcium. Vitamin-D have some co-factors needed to work proberly, it's:
Magnesium, Vitamin-K2, Zink and Boron.

Regards
Niels

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 7th, 2011 at 11:53am
A quick update....

I've been in a cycle since late summer, by far my longest and worst ever. I started on the regimen on Monday but I was a little bit low on the Vitamin D and Omega 3 for the first 2 days, I bumped up the amounts yesterday.

I've been woken up out of sound sleep with a cluster for the last 10 days at exactly 6:34 am.....EXCEPT FOR TODAY!!!

I hope this is a sign of things to come, I actually slept from 2am-7:30am for the 1st time in the last 6 months or so.

Now that I'm up to the correct levels, I'm hoping to see more results but I'll take the baby step.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 7th, 2011 at 3:37pm
Hey Primetime,

Thanks for the update...  I hope the pattern improves now that you're up to therapeutic dosing levels of vitamin D3

Niels, you're quite correct, vitamin D3 increases calcium absorption in the gut and serum so will help add calcium to bone matter.  I also agree the vitamin D3 co-factors are important as well and that's why I take the calcium citrate formulated with vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc...  That's why NIH recommends taking calcium supplements with vitamin D3 to improve bone mass and prevent osteoporosis. 

The Institute of Medicine also lists the Dietary Reference Intakes for Calcium and Vitamin D3 at 1000mg./day for men and 1200mg./day for women (1300mg./day if lactating) while taking 4000I.U./day vitamin D3.

The problem pointed out by the Vitamin D3 Council occurs with the higher therapeutic doses of vitamin D3 and minimal intake of calcium from all sources.  They agree vitamin D3 increases calcium absorption in the gut and that this leads to higher serum levels of calcium for bone development, but they also opine that in the absence of the needed calcium intake from food and supplements the opposite can occur.

If you read through the studies on vitamin D3 from deficiencies to mega-dose regiments ≥100,000I.U./week, there appears to be a pattern that too much or too little vitamin D3 can lead to osteoporosis.

As an example, one such study done in Australia where women ≥ 70 years of age were given a single dose of 500,000I.U. during the Fall through Winter time and a control group of women in the same age group were given a placebo.

The women taking the mega-dose of vitamin D3 suffered 31% more falls and 26% more bone fractures than women in the control group taking the placebo.  While one might be tempted to assume from these results too much vitamin D3 leads to osteoporosis, there may be other explanations for the increase in bone fractures...

While vitamin D3 dosing at this level has little to do with how we're trying to reduce the frequency and severity of our CH with the present regimen, the results of this study beg more questions than answers to the question is a lot more vitamin D3 better...  For example, the increase in falls could be due to vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) intoxication.  The increase in falls could also be due to an increase in physical activity made possible by the vitamin D3 or a combination of both.  In short, this study leaves me with more questions than answers...

In closing there are two things to take away from this discussion as I see it, (1) we all need at least 1000mg. to 1200mg. of calcium from all sources a day.  (2) We also need to be critical when looking at the results and conclusions of clinical studies as it is easy to find similar studies arriving at different and sometimes opposing conclusions...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 8th, 2011 at 10:30am
Starting day 5 and things are looking up.

I actually got 7 hours of consecutive sleep last night and zero...that's right ZERO hits in the last 24 hours.

Batch...you're pretty much hero right now!!!  ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Powermonkey on Apr 8th, 2011 at 1:48pm
Ok, I've been taking 10,000 IU of D3 daily for over a month now.  I built up the courage over spring break to stop taking it twice, for two days each time to find out what would happen.  Both times that I stopped taking it, I started shadowing more heavily by evening of the first day, and I took a full attack at night on the second day the second time I stopped taking the D3.  Both times the pain went away the day after when I resumed taking the D3.

Seems to me that in my case - D3 definitely is working.

Has anyone had NO success so far with it?  I think it would be interesting to hear about the cases that do not, since this seems to be working for so many people in this thread.

A comparison of medications, symptoms, etc taken by those that it does work for, and those that it does not work for could be useful for determining if there may be similarities between those that D3 helps and those that it does not.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wishbone on Apr 8th, 2011 at 2:03pm
The jury is still out for me but I have only been taking the D3 for about 5 days now.  The 3rd day there seemed to be improvement, but yesterday was horrible back to HA during day every 3 hrs and then last night every 2 hours.  One thing of note however, is once in cycle the changes in barometric pressure, high humidity definitely cause me to have more hits and presently our weather is crazy with changes so this could be reason for not having the same positive affects on me as for many, because the 3rd day I thought it was really working (and it may be) because I went 7 hrs with not a hit.  Also of note, except for today, when hit I have been able to abort with O2 in a much shorter period of time.  Unfortunately today am in a big shadow period.

Wishbone

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 8th, 2011 at 4:06pm
Wishbone,

You're not alone.  I have at least one other heavy hitter having a similar response to this regimen.

Try shooting the shadows with oxygen therapy using the modified forced vital capacity tidal volume breathing technique we discussed in the call.  If you're able to blow away your shadows with this technique it may mean your arterial pH levels are too low.

Have you started drinking an 8 oz glass of lemonade with lunch and dinner as we discussed in the call?  This can help as there are two parts to the complete regimen.  The Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3 act as an anti-inflammatory to combat possible neurogenic inflammation in and around the trigeminal nerve.  The calcium citrate tablets containing magnesium and zinc act as co-factors to improve the effectiveness of the vitamin D3 and when taken with fruit juices high in citric acid act as a stomach acid buffer so should help elevate a low arterial pH. 

If the arterial pH is too low it tends to stimulate vasodilation and that can lead to an increase in the frequency and severity of your CH.  Elevating the arterial pH to the upper end of the normal range should act as a vasoconstrictor so would lower the frequency and intensity of your CH.

I've sent you a pH data collection spreadsheet so you can start tracking your saliva pH as an analog to arterial pH.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wishbone on Apr 8th, 2011 at 4:15pm
Batch the O2 does not knock out the shadows, maybe temper them some, but still there. I have not today had the lemonade (ran out) but before all this week have been drinking about a quart a day.  One note however, I did not drink with meals just drank it during the day.

At this point I really do think my ph probably low but I also think the crazy weather has the demon happy.  Up until today I was getting better. Weather is suppose to break today so with more lemonade maybe the demon will rest a bit.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 8th, 2011 at 10:58pm
Wishbone,

Copy all...  and sounds like a plan (SLAP) with the lemonade.  I had the best response drinking it with lunch and dinner...  You might try taking the calcium citrate tablets right before lunch along with a glass of lemonade.  That will ensure a good buffering action.

You also may have better luck shooting shadows when the new InGage™ regulator comes in...

We'll figure out one way or another what's preventing this regimen from working properly for you.

Take care and hang in there. 

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sandie99 on Apr 9th, 2011 at 9:10am
I just read through the whole thread. Very interesting read! Thanks for starting this, Batch. :)

Now, I've been planning to get Omega3 for me for a while. This gives me one excellent reason to do some more research on the brands available in here. I do take lots of vitamins already, some of them contain vitamin D. I need to look that up as well.

I suspect that I will find different doses in here. Usually our doses are much, much smaller, but let's see about that.

PF days to all,
Sanna

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Apr 10th, 2011 at 4:37pm
I know I am still mid cycle because I have a very dodgey left eye and eyebrow every morning when I wake up!! Whether out of stupidity or curiosity I wanted to see what would happen if I stopped taking the D3 regime - I only missed the supplements for 1 day and sure enough the shadows started up again!! Straight back on the regime ( dont need a full blown CH to prove a point )  24 hrs later no more shadows.
Oh yes ~ I also passed the beer test :D, gonna try the vodka test next  ;D ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Amanda07 on Apr 10th, 2011 at 8:25pm
OK so I'm almost too scared to say anything in case it hears me...

BUT...

I'm up to day 3 PF so far! 3000mg of Omega 3 and only 1000 IU of D3 a day and my shadows have virtually disappeared. The only thing I have noticed is that if I stay up too late at night, outside of my regular routine (which I have done a few nights this weekend), I get a niggle of pain from shadows...but I'm hoping that as it builds up in my system that might stop being a problem.

But OMG I feel a million times better and like this NATURAL path a LOT better then the anti depressants my neuro wanted to try me on next...

My question is for those on verapamil as well as this system - have you stopped your verapamil? I'm wondering when I should taper mine down and see what happens...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by River_Rat on Apr 11th, 2011 at 10:10am
I don't even know what to say but suppose I should say something, I started the D3 10K and 3600mg Fish oil  also talking 480mg verap and all was well for awhile (just starting my cycle) then I tapered off the verap and got slammed again so I started the verap again still not getting better, I upped my dose to 960mg verap and maybe just a little better but still getting hit hard, I then added the Calcium Citrate and they got worse I stayed on this cocktail for a few days but I swear the calcium made it worse for me so I stopped taking the calcium and just stayed with the 10K the 3600mg and the 960 verap it doesn't seem to be helping me anymore (maybe mid cycle), so 2 days ago I just stopped taking the verap because I didn't feel like it was helping me anyway, had a pretty rough night last night, hell I don't know I can't even type right now, I'm just taking trex shots to kill these things right now, I was running low and last night I was dancing with a 9ish but was trying to save my last shot (I usually only inject about 2.5 ml) I suffered through my 9 then shortly after that got hit again, it was climbing and at about 7 I injected just 1ml and it killed it. I think my plan now is to stay on the D3 10K and 3600 mg Fish oil, then just take the trex small dose as needed to kill the beast. I'm in hell................I am quite sure the next post will say something about 02, not going there again, has never worked for me NEVER, I've used it every possible way. I'm trying kudzu again. I've had 30 years of this shit and you would think they could find something, I'm guessing that I am at least half way through my cycle so I just need to hold on, there has never been a ryme or reason for these things with me, once I thought a chiropractor fixed them, once I thought schrooms worked, once I thought Kudzu worked, once I thought I hammered them so hard and so often with trex they just went away, who really knows. Sorry for the rant.

PFDN................Norm

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 11th, 2011 at 3:01pm
Norm,

Sorry you're having a rough time.  What brand of calcium citrate were you taking?  Some formulations contain calcium carbonate that makes it less effective as a buffer and the calcium carbonate can easily cause a GI disturbance unless taken with meals. 

In addition, the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate most of us are using also contains magnesium and zinc.  All three of these minerals are an important part of the regimen as they act as co-factors to improve the efficacy of the vitamin D3 therapy.

I understand you've tried oxygen therapy several time without any luck, but at what flow rate? 

If you've tried oxygen therapy at ≥25 liters/minute early in an attack using one of the O2PTIMASK™ kits with a 3 liter reservoir bag without getting an abort, you may have one or more comorbid conditions that override the oxygen therapy and making the anti-inflammatory regimen less effective... 

You're not alone on this count.  There are three other heavy hitters having similar problems with the anti-inflammatory regimen.  However, all three are successfully aborting their CH with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  They think the anti-inflammatory regimen has has helped shorten their abort times.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by River_Rat on Apr 11th, 2011 at 7:32pm
Hi Batch, I was a bit grumpy this morning when I made my last post, and for that I'm sorry. Anyway I looked all over and couldn't find the Kirkland brand and we do not have a costco here. I did end up at a nutrition store that had just about everything, I had my Blackberry with me and showed them the picture of the bottle they looked it up and found it so we compared the ingredients and we found the exact same thing from NOW, I/we did figure out the difference between the citrate and carbonate, this brand also has the same I'U of D3, Magnesium and zinc all the same, it could just be a coincidence that they got worse after taking the Calcium who knows. If there is one thing that I have figured out through the years for me at least is I never really know what actually works. I am still taking the D3 and the fish oil and who really knows maybe my head would be worse without it. The other thing that I know for sure is Imitrex has always killed them, sometimes I will rebound and I will shadow a lot from it but I only have about a month to go hopefully.  This might sound silly to you but the 02 thing is such a big hassle, I'm not opposed to trying it again sometime but last time I had that huge tank, hoses the newest greatest mask, bag & etc, it wasn't very portable and to top it off it didn't work and at that time 2009 I had all the new stuff. I am about half way through my cycle. As much as I don't want to suffer from the pain I think I would rather just take the trex this time around. I'll keep reading and I'll stay strong. I thank God for you and this site.

OH!! One more thing, my CH hit hard and fast but the longest one I have had this go around is about 30 min and that's a good thing, could it be the D3/Omega3  ;)

PFDN.................Norm

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:24am
Hi

It took me 3 months before I was pain free, with 5000 IU vitamin-D3 and 500 mg magnesium. So it can take some time to work.  ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ICY on Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:56am
Just a quick update of where I am

Been taking 3000mg Omega3 and 10000iu D3 for a few weeks now, my headaches have just much less severe although I do still get them 4-5 per day, I seem to have a low level irritating headaches most of the day between the heavier pains, this seems to have happened since January however now the in between headaches seem to have gotten a bit stronger and the more severe headaches seem to have eased a couple of levels, I am just about to start verapamil at a rate of 120mg per day waiting for a prescription for Sumatripan injections, not on O2 yet, will be getting that sorted very soon if the verapamil and sumatripan dont work for me.

So my conclusion is that the D3 and Omega3 have had an impact in reducing the severity of my big hits, I will update once the Verapamil starts getting into my system.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Apr 13th, 2011 at 2:44pm
Hi
Well this is my first post.  Have been a cluster head for over 10 years now.  I like many have spent absolutely thousands of pounds on various different treatments.  Through it all O2 was the only abortive that works for me.  No preventative has ever worked, tried Verap, Proponolol just going back to Neuro for next thing to try.

Finally as my condition has evolved (used to have one 6 week episode in June /July, now have been in a set of beast visits since early feb.) I have now found something that works!  Last week I was having attacks every 50 mins through the night about Kip 5 each time although some were Kip 7.  O2 always gets shot of mine in a max of 10 mins, sometimes literally in seconds.

Joined here a week ago, read Batch's advice and am taking the fish oil and the sodium citrate tablets, waiting on the vit D.  However since I started have gone 3 nights ago to 4 attacks, 2 nights ago to 2 attacks, and last night 1 attack.  Now as a maths teacher I understand sequences, but this is the best ever!

Am hoping against hope that I will be another success story.  Got some Ph strips, measured  my mid afternoon level, it was 6.75, then just before evening meal had a shadow, measured it then and was 6.  Downed a supermarket own brand version of Red Bull (20% of the price) and felt a lot better.  Kind of hoping that the regimen will eventually help with the shadows and day time Kip 3/4 attacks.

Thank you Batch, fingers crossed!!!!!!       

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 13th, 2011 at 2:55pm
I think I've had a major breakthrough.

It's been exactly a week since I started on "therapeutic" levels of everything. I'm taking the following vitamins currently:

- 2 calcium citrate tabs with Magnesium, Zinc, B6 and D
- 3400 mg's Omega-3
- approx. 7500 IU's vitamin D (between the D3 supplement, multivitamin and calcium citrate tabs)

Since last Wednesday, I've had some spotty shadows and only 1 hit worth mentioning. Also, I've slept over 6 hours consecutively a night for 7 nights in a row.

Obviously, as with everyone on the board, the cluster experience is very individualized, same thing with treatments and their efficacy. I have to say that for me personally, this vitamin regimen has been nothing short of a miracle. For the last 7 days I've felt alive again and I haven't felt this way in months.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MattyAA on Apr 14th, 2011 at 6:01am
Hey I got question, how do you intake D3? it it drops or liquid tincture? I seen some D3 here with 15.000 U.I and only one is tincture but it is with Benzyl alcohol as helper regeant or however you call it.


In Poland brand name is Devikap if you could look up on net and tell me if it is safe, alcohol part made me a bit worried, as despite me being episodic, I still am afraid to drink due to my university as I don't want to piss off headache and get it now that I really cannot afford any lost time.

Thank you in advance.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 14th, 2011 at 1:11pm
My vitamin D3 is coming from caplets.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MattyAA on Apr 14th, 2011 at 5:29pm
Can you give me brand name?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 14th, 2011 at 11:26pm
Radar, Primetime,

Great news.  Thanks for your updates.

Matty,  vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) can come as a liquid, I used to get it under the brand name Drisdol and I took it with an eyedropper, liquid softgel capsules, or as a lower dose solid mixed with other vitamins or minerals.

I looked up and translated devikap… Devikap (Vitamin D3), is a liquid form of cholecalciferol  (15,000 IU / ml), 10 ml.  This liquid form of vitamin D3 should work just fine.  I would start out at a half ml (0.5ml.)/day.

You may find vitamin D3 in the liquid softgel capsules are easier to take.  Nature Made sells it's products in Europe so you may be able to order vitamin D3 over the Internet. The same with Nature's Bounty.  Both carry the 5,000I.U. vitamin D3 in liquid softgel form.  If no joy on these two brands, search the Internet for "cholecalciferol" or "cholecalciferolum" and "5,000I.U. liquid softgel capsules."

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Apr 15th, 2011 at 11:12am
Batch/All,
Today marks two weeks that I've been on the D3/Omega 3 regime so I'll give an update. I've been taking 10,000 IU D3, 3,000 mg Omega 3, and 1 Calcium/Zinc/Magnesium combo. Just to note, I don't take any other medications or vitamins.

For the first two days, I still had 3 attacks each day in which 1 of those attacks on each day turned into a CH (K6-7). The other attacks were either heavy shadows or K1-2s.

From the third day until now, I have been PF (minus a trigger CH one night because I sat around chlorine too long. My fault). I have heavy shadows some days and other days I don't have any at all. On a few occasions I've had very close calls where the shadow was just about to change into a CH but went away. I've noticed that the shadows are very receptive to abortive treatments considering how far I am into the cycle. I don't have 02 right now so my main abortives are caffeine, exercise, and the rubbing of my eyes. Any type of exercise that raises my heart rate significantly for 4 minutes or more has eliminated any shadow or possible CH that I have tried it on. This usually never happens mid cycle and I think its a result of this vitamin regiment.

Other Clusterheads have taken a day or two off to see if the CHs return full blast. Call me weak (or smart), but I will not be doing that because I feel so great right now. I will continue to take this regiment until my cycle is over (whenever that is!) and will start up again when the Beast returns. Thanks Batch and everyone else who has posted!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 15th, 2011 at 2:15pm
Matty AA....

I'm just using generic, grocery store brand, vitamin D3 liquid capsules. Same for the omega-3 and calcium citrate.

All the effectiveness of the name brand, without the cost.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dreamofire on Apr 15th, 2011 at 8:31pm
Its been a few weeks now and I thought that I would report my personal findings. 

I have been taking 10,000I.U. D3 and 2000 mg Omega 3 with the calcium citrate +D3 with lemonade the (Batch Formula) now for a little over 2 weeks.  The beginning results were skewed because I was on a fairly lengthy stretch of high dose prednisone and depakote.  Prednisone previously had been stopping 90% of my attacks.  My goal was to try this in lieu of my depakote as I came off the Pred. My first three days of replacing the depakote with the (Batch Formula) was fantastic as I experienced 3 full pain free days.  Unfortunately as I continued to tapper off of the prednisone it was short lived and my percentage of hits have steadily increased as I decreased the prednisone dosage.  Two days ago I stopped the prednisone and my attacks are back to 100% of pretreatment.

Unfortunately I don't have the option of giving this anymore time on its own to work.  I have to provide for a family and I'm the sole income I have to be able to work.  So I've made my deal with the devil  [smiley=deal2.gif]and I'm on the prednisone again for month number 4.

Really cool though that a lot of people are getting some results with this Not sure why its not effective for me.  This cycle does seem to be more of an ass kicker than normal. Who knows maybe it will begin to work in the future.  I going to continue to take the Batch formula because I need the calcium and D3 with being on the steroids. So when this round of steroids comes down I shall re-evaluate.

PF Days to all...
Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MattyAA on Apr 15th, 2011 at 9:02pm
Thanks Batch a lot! Will look it up and see, though Poland put D3 on prescriptions I heard last time I was to local pharmacy, so I will see if I can order it or not.

Thanks a lot for great piece of information Batch, you are great!

Matty

P.S Oh I would forgot to ask.

Lemonade you mentioned, will just squeezing lots of fresh lemons then adding few spoons of sugar then mixing it works? Or do you have some improved perhaps balanced ingridient to ingridient formula?

Though prolly I will make myself sound like an idiot :P Sorry if I ask for obvious things, but hey perhaps your lemonade is better than what I used to do  ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 16th, 2011 at 12:25pm
Hey Matty,

Good question.  I make my own lemonade and sweeten it with Splenda™ an artificial sweetener to cut down on the carbohydrates.  I use a ratio of one part lemon juice to 4 or 5 parts water and one part Splenda™.  If you don't have Splenda you can use another sweetener or sugar then adjust to taste.

The following link has a great recipe for lemonade:

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It's important to understand the rationale for drinking lemonade with the calcium citrate supplements that also contain magnesium and zinc is to elevate arterial pH.   

If the arterial pH is below the normal range, this condition tends to stimulate vasodilation and that makes the CH triggering mechanism more effective so we tend to have a higher frequency of CH and they tend to be more severe.

An arterial pH at or slightly above the normal range of 7.35 to 7.45 tends to stimulate the vasoconstriction we need to help slow down and possibly prevent the onset of a CH.

The combination of citric acid from the lemon juice and calcium citrate forms a chemical buffer that will elevate the stomach's gastric juices from a pH of 1.0 - 2.0 up to a pH of 3.9 and stabilize it at that level for 5 to 6 hours. 

I've found that taking the calcium citrate tablets washed down with lemonade or orange juice in the morning, then drinking a glass of lemonade with lunch and another with dinner has the best results.

If you take this concept one step further, you can make a few simple changes to your diet during a CH cycle that can also help reduce the frequency, severity and duration of your CH.

In general you want to eat more alkaline forming food types and cut back on acid forming foods.  The simple formula is to cut back on red meat, (eat more fish and chicken), and eat more veggies.  Staying away from foods containing gluten, i.e., bread and peanuts may also help as these two food types have a habit of stimulating inflammation throughout the body and brain…

Barry_T_Coles posted the following link that provides an excellent acid-alkaline food list.

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Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MattyAA on Apr 16th, 2011 at 2:13pm
Wow thanks a lot, off to shop to buy lemons and then back to do it, also will buy fresh cod and some veggies as you suggested, mhm... roasted chicken is on my mind too, I am just a bit worried if spices for roasted chicken like parika, powdered veggies and so on will fix a headache for me or not... hmmm

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 16th, 2011 at 10:38pm
Matty,

I wouldn't worry about spices...  I used a liberal dusting of "Texas Gun Powder" (ground smoked jalapeńo pepper, a.k.a. chipotle) [smiley=cowboy.gif] and lots of garlic on my Peruvian style roasted chicken when I was in cycle and had no problems...  but then I go through a pound of fresh jalapeńo peppers a week... some puréed fresh with garlic as a dip for the chicken and the rest stuffed with sharp cheddar cheese as "poppers."    [smiley=JAW_DROP.gif] Go figure.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Apr 18th, 2011 at 1:29pm
Was talking with a friend of mine two days ago. She's been on anti-depressants for quite a few years and noticed a decline in their effectiveness.  Her M.D. put her on a therapeutic dose of vitamin D3 at 100,000 IU per week.  After several weeks she noticed a considerable improvement. 
Interesting thing is that after three months at this dose her D3 levels were no higher than at the low end of the normal range.
It does seem to take some time to for some people to get the levels up to normal.
-Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 18th, 2011 at 1:51pm
Gary,

Ask her if her doctor also prescribed supplemental calcium...  The Vitamin D Council recommends supplemental calcium be taken when treating vitamin D deficiency.  Without the calcium supplements, high doses of vitamin D3 can actually start removing calcium from bones...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Apr 18th, 2011 at 5:01pm
Thanks Batch,
Yes, I remembered your earlier post about that. I did ask and she said that she has been taking Calcium all along.
-Cheers!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Apr 19th, 2011 at 4:26pm
Hi,

Have just joined this site, and have just read (most of) this thread. One of my best friends is involved with a company in the UK that lead the production of Omega3, and they make a very good product. When he gets back from the States next week, I'm going to be hitting him up for a few bottles!

I'm a chronic sufferer, so will know pretty quickly if this regime is working or not. It sounds really interesting. Thanks for posting, will let you know I discover.

xx Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Apr 19th, 2011 at 6:02pm
ReneeM,
Glad that you found us! As you read in the thread, the D3/Omega 3 has worked in various ways for me and many other Ch sufferers. From my experience, I would recommend that you try the regime for at least a week or two before making a verdict. I have noticed more improvements week after week and I worry that some people expect it to work overnight. Just my opinion! Good luck and I hope that it works for you!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Heather Elise on Apr 19th, 2011 at 6:24pm
Hi,
I have been reading everything I can on this site and trying everything too...... SO happy that I found it!!! I'm an unemployed welder and only had 9 imitrex pills so I have really been hating life, been in cycle now for a month and a half. Started the D3 cocktail, 4 days ago and I'm feeling much better. I hope everyone has pfd. Thanks, for all the info.
Heather


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 19th, 2011 at 11:12pm
Hey Heather,

Thanks for the update on your response to this regimen...  It never hurts to hear from someone capable of pouring heavy metal rods in a very bright arc lite...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Apr 20th, 2011 at 5:35am
Hi again,

Right, I've had a chance to read more of this wonderful and amazing thread! Thank you, each and everyone who has posted and tired this regimen, and especially Batch. Thank you for giving me hope.

I'm not an expert on Omega3, but I have a very good friend who pretty much is. He's involved with a company that makes it. He's in the States at the moment (I'm in the UK). He'll be back in a couple weeks, and can answer any questions anyone has. I know he takes it twice a day, and he takes quite a lot. He says it increases his sex drive, among other things. He's 66, although you wouldn't know it, you'd think he was 48. Also, taking it in two smaller doses might help with the upset stomachs some people mentioned.

Interesting the comments about sunlight and Vitamin D. In England, the winters are very dark, and the days VERY short. My clusters are always at their worse Nov-Feb, and this year they were horrendous. I put it down to Topiramate not working, but it could have been lack of sun, and lack of Vitamin D. My mood droped, I was tired ALL THE TIME. I started taking Vitamin D a few months ago, which helped with my energy, but on its own didn't really make a change to my clusters.

I don't have the bottle in front of me to know if it was D3, or just D, not sure if there is a difference???? Or how much the difference is.

Anyway, I'm heading to the chemist now to buy some Omega3 and Vitamin D3.

My clusters are Chronic at the moment. So far this year, bad clusters have been a max of 9 days a part, more often 4-5 days a part. Today is day 10 since my last bad cluster. So I'm expecting one at any moment. I've had a few minor ones recently, the demon is flexing his muscles, getting ready. So maybe I can kill him before he gets a chance. That would be a nice trick.

I have a spreadsheet that I've kept since 1 Jan 2010. It tracks every headache, ice-picks, shadows, cluster and migraine, along with every medication I've taken, abortive, sleep patterns etc, etc, etc. All of that is then graphed and plotted over time. I will add this regimen to the charts and see what happens. Would be nice to flatline the demon.

Two months ago I had no hope and was planning my end. I have hope now. Thank you.

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Apr 20th, 2011 at 4:04pm
Hi all

Started the regimen a week or so ago, it cut back my attacks night after night, am now about a week into PF nights.  Shadows largely stopped at the weekend, but I know I am still in a period of attacks because yesterday morning I had to collect my daughter early and didnt take my morning dose until 10 when I got breakfast with her.  I had a shadow just as I was preparing the meal.
I feel so much more alive than I have done for so long, I feel so much more energy.
Have some really good Omega 3 oil (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE) am taking about 4000 mg a day with the combination horse softgels and D3.
Thank you so much to Batch for his advice and guidance I just so hope this works for others as well.  Many PF days to you all.
Ian ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Roxi on Apr 20th, 2011 at 6:09pm
In a cluster cycle now.   It has been 3 1/2 years.  Longest I have every went in past 30 years.  Though I was done with it.  Just some suggestions on treatment.  Of course you have probably all tried predisone.  It helps me at the start of cycle.  I stay on Verapramil all the time.  What really helps me is Keppra.  It is an antiseizure medication.   Dont have any side effects from it.   It is in generic now so not to expensive.  500 mg AM and PM.  If you can get your doctor or neurologist to prescribe it, it is really worth trying.  My neurologist started prescribing it about 5 years ago to her cluster patients, acute and chronic forms and has gotten great feedback from it.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wishbone on Apr 20th, 2011 at 7:58pm
Well I thought I was going to be able to report something really positive until last night and I got hit with a 9K that I could not abort with O2 and had to resort to zomig and O2 which did abort finally.  Up until then my attacks (although still not less frequently) had been reduced to 4-5K and I was able to abort rather quickly with O2.  Our weather here in Birmingham, AL has been crazy (tornados everywhere around) and maybe the changes in barometric pressures had something to do with last night's hit.

I am keeping faith that this regime will work and still think it has been positive on reducing the level of hit.

Take care all and I pray this regime is working for most to provide some PF time, Wishbone.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Apr 21st, 2011 at 5:00am
I've been following this myself too (not just suggesting others try it).

For the last two weeks I've been taking 3000IU of vitamin D (plus getting plenty more from the sun here in NZ), 4500mg of fish oil, 266mg of magnesium, 133mg of calcium and 5mg of zinc (last 3 are combined in a tablet) each day.

Although I started reducing my verapamil at the same time I started this, down to 360mg from 480mg, I've continued to be CH free (33 days now after 11 months of CHs). I've had the number of ice pick headaches I get drop off to virtually nothing (1 a week?).

I'm now feeling pretty good, am looking to reduce my verapamil again and am no longer quite joined at the hip to my oxygen cylinder.

Whilst I can't put 100% of the credit on this method, it certainly seems to be helping.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 21st, 2011 at 8:36am
Hey Renée,

I like your style...  Flatlining the beast is clearly a goal we all share... And all of us who have suffered from CH for any length of time without benefit of a meaningful method of intervention have looked over the edge at one time or another...

What I find most amazing is that when you finally do come across something that works well enough to not only control the beast, but give you back a quality of life you didn't think possible with CH...  Everything changes for the better...  and you enjoy life so much more than ever... 

It's like having an Angel flying cover for you...  to assassinate the beast...  making all the fear and anxiety associated with the next CH a thing of the past...  And if the beast does manage an appearance...  no biggie... Just blow it away with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.

As far as reports on the efficacy of this regimen go...  the numbers just keep getting better.  Ian, with your report, we're pushing 80% efficacy with no real side effects or adverse events reported.  That's a heck of a lot better than verapamil at 50% efficacy and all kinds of side effects!

I know we still have a few folks who also suffer from comorbid disorders that can prevent the full response so many others are experiencing so I'll continue to look for other possible solutions.

In the mean time for others thinking about trying this regimen for the first time... please discuss it with your PCP or neurologist...  I'm not a doctor...  or a snake oil salesman...  just another CH'er like you.

For those of you who find this regimen is making a difference, be sure to discuss it with your PCP or neurologist as well...  they might just learn something new...  and be better prepared to help the next CH'er who walks in to the office with a red eye, drooping eyelid and saline gush complaining about a screwdriver lodged behind the eye...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Apr 21st, 2011 at 8:53am
Batch,

Is someone keeping a record (a detailed record) of how many people are trying this regimen, what doses they are taking, how long for, how effective it has been, what other preventatives they are taking it with, success/faulure/PF days, etc.? You mention 80% success in your last post. Is that an accurate figure or a WAG? (wild arse guess).

Have an appointment with my GP on tuesday to get a higher prescrip of Vitamin D3 and see about Oxygen. She's really helpful, so the D3 shouldn't be a problem, not sure what she'll say about the Oxygen.

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 21st, 2011 at 11:32am
Renée,

"Pushing 80% efficacy" with this regimen is better than a SWAG...  The raw numbers for folks trying this regimen who have either posted here on CH.com or directly to me via PMs, Skype, or Email with positive results of either a significant reduction in the frequency and intensity of their CH or gone into a CH PF remission is 23 out of 29 or 79.3%...

The most common comment is PF sleep...  followed second by an uplift in energy...

I've not kept track of how closely folks are following the regimen I use, but it appears the vitamin D3 dosing is between 5,000 and 15,000 I.U.

Until we can get a formal, gold standard (randomized, crossover, double blind, placebo controlled) study funded, started, and completed with published results, all we're doing at this point is collate anecdotal information. 

Having said that, what's significant at this point even as an informal survey is the efficacy is far greater than what might be expected from the highest possible placebo effect, and that there have not been any adverse events reported...

That makes this is a very positive first step as it provides me with the kind of data I need to go out dialing for dollars to fund such a study.

I hope you had good luck with your doctor today.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by primetime on Apr 21st, 2011 at 2:21pm
Another update....

I settled in at 7000 IUs Vitamin D, 3400 mg's Omega-3 and 2 Calcium Citrate tablets (Magnesium and Zinc included). In the span of about 2 weeks, I had one hit worth mentioning and no shadows. This was down from 4-7 hits a day since last August.

Things changed on Tuesday. I woke up at 7am with a kip 5 and then fell right back into my usual pattern, 5 hits total. Same thing on Wednesday and I've had 3 hits today.

I'm on the last of my vitamin D and Omega 3, so I'll restock today but I think I'm going to increase my vitamin D to 10,000 IUs to see if can corral the beast again.

Cross your fingers for me because the pain free days were unbelievably awesome and I want them back!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Apr 25th, 2011 at 8:19am
I'm at 4,000mg Omega3 and 8,000 IU Vitamin D3, and am still getting attacks, albeit more mild than before. And shorter, probably half strength and half duration. Seeing my GP on Tuesday (tomorrow) to see about getting prescribed 10,000 IU Vitamin D3 as it is difficult to get over the counter without taking a handful of tablets each day. The strongest dose I can find is 1,000 IU tablets - yeah, 10 a day!

So, my hope now has a dent in it and my optimism is not is not so high. But will get on 10,000 IU and see how that goes after a few days. At least I'm chronic, so if this works, I'll know for sure before long.

Taking one day at a time at the moment.

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wishbone on Apr 25th, 2011 at 8:28am
As always confusion exists regarding the Demon.  I have been on the regime for about 3 1/2 weeks now and had been getting anywhere from 10-18 hits a day.  This past Monday night I got hit with a 9-10, so bad I could not abort as usual with O2 and resorted to a zomig nasal spray.  The HA broke after taking and continuing O2.  I only had 2-3 hits the next 3 days and then Fri, Sat & Sun no hits.

So here in the big confusion for me.  I am eposodic and my cycles usually run for 3 months.  This is the end of the third month, so now I have no idea if the regime worked or if my cycle is ending on its own.  Regardless if my PF days continue I am going to continue the regime but reduce the D3 down from 20,000 IU to 5,000 and take only 2 Calcium Nitrates.  I will continue with 3,600 mg of Fish Oil.

For those of you in doubt I would encourage you to try because everything about me medically, I am also in the only 2% or 5% that something does not work.  I state again, however the regime may have worked because 2 cycles ago my cycle lasted 6 months.  I also recognize that the Demon may have just taken Easter off and will attack again with vengeance, but with what I have been going through the 3 day respite is so enjoyable.

I wish all PF days and only pray this cycle truly is ending. 

Wishbone.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Apr 26th, 2011 at 8:08am
I saw my GP this morning, in hopes she could prescribe a higher single dose of Vit D3. The highest I could find on the shelf was 1,000 IU tablets, and was getting fed up taking a handfull each day. But alas, she couldn't even prescribe that! The highest in her books was around 400 IU.

So, I did what I should've done to start with and turned to the Internet. I found this site, and placed and order: (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

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5,000 IU tablets, 180 each in a bottle for less than Ł10. They also have a US and Euro currancy site. So, problem solved.

I shall be fully on the regimen by the end of the week.

Lots of fingers crossed.

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Knuckles on Apr 27th, 2011 at 9:33am
Thank you! 

This has made a huge impact on me as well.  I've been using D3 and Omega 3's for almost a week and have fewer and less intense headaches than when I started.

In fact, I actually went all day yesterday without an attack. I did have a few minors through the night (when they are usually the worst).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wimsey1 on Apr 28th, 2011 at 8:38am
Hey Batch, one of your heavy hitters reporting in...I've been on 10KIU's of D3, 3600 for Fish Oil, and 1000mgs Calcium daily for over a month. My reason for posting is this: at first, I was looking for the magic bullet that would end the daily hits. But I've changed my criteria, and I'm wondering about other chronics as well. Once I upped my verapamil to 560mg/day, and added this regime, I've noticed I'm back to 2-3 hits/day instead of 4-6 +nighttime hits, and abortable after 2-3 minutes of O2. This is so much better than just one month ago. Of course I'd rather have no pain, no interruptions, no hits...but something is working here and I'll keep it going. Seems to me pain free might not oughta be your only criteria for success...moderating hits for chronic at least is quite helpful as well. So again, thanks for all you do, Pete and keep the stats comin'! Blessings. lance

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 28th, 2011 at 9:00am
Knuckles,

That's great news.  Thanks for sharing it with us. 

There are two goals of this regimen, lowering inflammation and elevating arterial pH to the high end of the normal range.  As diet can affect arterial pH, switching to a more alkaline forming diet may help this regimen to be even more effective.

Barry_T_Coles commented on this thread with the following link to food types you can eat to help elevate systemic/arterial pH:

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Hope the suggested food types shown at this link help improve your response to this regimen.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 28th, 2011 at 9:48am
Hey Lance,

Thanks for the update.  As a chronic type with heavy hitting cycles that caused my abort times with oxygen therapy to jump from 3 to 4 minutes up to 12 to 14 minutes, my initial motivation for using this regimen was to make my CH more manageable with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation, lower the abort times and cut down on the number of hits while sleeping.  Going PF was a total surprise.  I went from a consistent 4 hits a night to PF in 48 hours..

You do bring up another good point that I commented on in the thread on warfarin that may be worth repeating.  Essentially, there is no silver bullet...  Having said that, there appear to be a number of things we can do to make our CH more manageable if we take a more holistic approach.

The first is not to treat our CH in isolation.  In other words, it's becoming clear that diet can play a role.  A diet high in acid forming foods can bias our systemic/arterial pH to the lower end of the normal range and that may be all it takes to push us into a heavy hitting high cycle.

Accordingly, a change in diet to eat more alkaline forming food types listed in a link in my post above to Knuckles might be all it takes to make this regimen even more effective.

Comorbid disorders can also impact CH medications including oxygen therapy making them less effective.  In working with the heavy hitting CH'ers who have not had a significant improvement with this anti-inflammatory regimen after more than a week, we found they all share one or more of the same comorbidities.

These comorbid disorders include cardiac, renal, and thyroid insufficiencies as well as COPD and diabetes.  Moreover, these same CH'ers also tend to be refractory to other CH preventatives and abortives.

There appears to be concurrence on at least some of the comorbid disorders we noted as a multivariate analysis conducted by Zidverc–Trajkovi JJ et al. and reported in an article titled: Comorbidities in cluster headache and migraine, Acta Neurologica Belgica, 04/18/2011, that chronic sinusitis and diabetes mellitus, adjusted by gender, age and duration of headache, are more frequently associated with cluster headache(CH) than with migraine.

The interesting thing about the comorbid disorders we've noted with respect to the anti-inflammatory regimen is they all have the potential to lower arterial pH.

The sinusitis reported by Zidverc–Trajkovi JJ et al. is also of interest as it may be an indication of an inflammatory reaction that could easily encompass the sphenopalatine ganglion located in the back of the nasal passage and possibly spread to the trigeminal ganglion as the two nerve bundles are directly connected to each other by a branch of the trigeminal nerve.

What all this points out to me, is that as cluster headache sufferers, we need to make sure our PCPs and neurologists take a more holistic approach in treating our disorder to include looking for other comorbid disorders that can easily prevent CH medications from working effectively. 

In short, if we have one of these comorbid disorders, they need to be treated at the same time as our CH or it's entirely possible the medications prescribed for our CH will not have the desired therapeutic effect.  Some food for thought...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Apr 28th, 2011 at 4:23pm
Hi

It seems that vitamin-D3 supplementation might increase testosterone levels.

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Best Niels

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Apr 29th, 2011 at 3:56am
Thanks Niels, interesting article.

I'll try not to get too side tracked, might be best to start a new thread on this perhaps, but it might be on topic, or at least dove tail in.

I was born a man, started taking a set of hormones in 2006 to stop my testosterone, and another set to highly increase my oestrogen in preparing to become a woman. It is suspected, by a team studying the brain in the Netherlands, that this process alters the Hypothalamus in some people. The first oestrogen tablet I was on was fine, but then a doctor switched my prescription, and before long I started getting clusters and daily chronic headaches. It took us awhile to pin point the cause, and switch me back to the safer version of the hormone, but by then, the damage was done.

But, I do strongly believe that Clusters are very much hormone (specifically testosterone) and Hypothalamus linked. I'm sure we all know cluster are believed to be triggered by the Hypo. And they strongly believe the transition process transsexuals go through alters the Hypo, and my neuro knows several transsexuals with clusters as a result of hormones we took.

So, if Vit D3 restores some of the Testosterone I've deprived my system of, and that helps, that might make sense.

One way of checking your Testosterone levels yourself: Maybe not so noticeable in men as it will be in women. Fingernail strength is directly linked to the level of T in your system. The stronger your nails, the more T you have. I used to have wonderful strong nails before I transitioned and had surgery. Now, I have very little T, and have brittle useless nails. Will be watching to see if Vit D3 helps with my nails.

Renée


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Apr 30th, 2011 at 1:47pm
Hi Batch

Just checking in.  Still completely pain free, had a few shadows during the last few days however they are minor and essentially seem to last the duration of a pulse.  Perhaps that means my issue is perhaps inflammation related along with the Ph levels.  Interesting reading Renee above, my finger nails have been brittle since I started the current cluster (since Feb).  Interesting.
Have found now that being on the regimen for 3 weeks has had a number of other positive benefits, the main one being extra energy, my teeth seem somehow firmer and stronger without any little aches that I used to get all the time.
Am waiting to get an appointment with the neuro to let him now that I have entirely different clusters, in fact that I may have gone chronic but there is this wonderful gentleman in the US who has enabled me to sleep, smile and enjoy life.  I so hope the regimen will also help others as it has me.  I have also passed the wine and beer test!
Thank you again and deep wishes of pain free days to you all.
Ian :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 2nd, 2011 at 6:51am
Ian,

Thanks for the update...  Knowing your response to this regimen continues to be favorable without any adverse side effects is great news...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ricardo on May 2nd, 2011 at 3:14pm

Powermonkey wrote on Apr 8th, 2011 at 1:48pm:
Seems to me that in my case - D3 definitely is working.

Has anyone had NO success so far with it?  I think it would be interesting to hear about the cases that do not, since this seems to be working for so many people in this thread


No success on my end.  I wonder if it's a little early to be claiming an 80% success rate.  I'm betting people that have gotten help are a lot more likely to post about it

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on May 3rd, 2011 at 10:13am

Ricardo wrote on May 2nd, 2011 at 3:14pm:

Powermonkey wrote on Apr 8th, 2011 at 1:48pm:
Seems to me that in my case - D3 definitely is working.

Has anyone had NO success so far with it?  I think it would be interesting to hear about the cases that do not, since this seems to be working for so many people in this thread


No success on my end.  I wonder if it's a little early to be claiming an 80% success rate.  I'm betting people that have gotten help are a lot more likely to post about it



I've had improvement, I think. Still a bit early to tell, and I also still need to add zink to the mix. But, I was looking at my cluster headache graph this morning before work, and noticed an interesting trend.

Over the last 16 months, every cluster cycle has a very clear pattern of increasing spikes on the graph. For example a 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10 type pattern. This repeats and repeats and repeats so that the graph looks like a series of hills all leaning to the right. But, since starting the Batch 3 Regimen, there is suddenly this hill leaning to the left. I have one set of numbers going down, an 8, 6, 4 type grouping. Never had that happen before. EVER!

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on May 4th, 2011 at 10:12am
as soon as I read this,  i ran out and bought the supplies, and started the regimin.  It hasnt helped me at all.  I have had to rely on cafergot to help at night or i was getting hit every 45 min all night long.  I gave it two weeks to kick in to test it to see if it would help.  However,  I have to take anti convulsants since I have epilepsy,  and i dont know if that affects it.  It does affect "clusterbusting".  so maybe it also affects this type of regimin.

oh well, it was worth a try.

christine :(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on May 4th, 2011 at 4:22pm
Hi Batch

  Have been trying to catch up on what's new with CH . . . been away from the board . . . and apologies to all for "laying down my oar" for so long.

  Good news is that for the past two years I've been mostly PF.  In 2010, only used 30 "E" tanks . . . so far this year, have 5 empties . . . all hits have been low level and easily killed in a few minutes with the 02.

  How this relates to your thread?  About two years ago my GP prescribed large doses of D3 (can't find the bottle, but may have been 15-20,000 IU).  Since then, I take 5,000 IU per day, plus a multivitimin (which I've taken since going on water therapy 5/04).  It's been a year since I've had a real "dance" with the beast . . . and I do try and eat fish 2-3 times a week.

  This past week, have used one tank (several low level hits), as I've been ill with some chest congestion and pollen related sinus/eyes/throat problems . . . which pretty much put me down and out . . . and when I'm sleeping, I'm not drinking the water at my normal levels . . . so not surprised at the hits . . .BUT . . . they're all low level hits.   Two years ago, a reduction in water intake would/could trigger a series of attacks (Kip 5-8+).

  A note to those that don't know my history.  I'm 64, came here 2/02 after 13 months mis-diagnosis . .  6-8 attacks daily, sometimes 3-5 at night, Kip 5-9, most 20-45 min. and the occasional 1-2+hr horror.   After wife found this site, got Verapamil & 02 script and started being able to have some control of the beast.  3/03 almost died from viral meningitis, 5/03 diagnosed w/bladder cancer . . . surgeries, bcg treatments, then finally radical cystectomy (removed bladder and prostate . . . I DO NOT have a stoma, but have to self cath 4-5 times a day . . . still beats having a bag stuck to my stomach), followed by 3 months chemo.  All this time, I was taking the Verap and always had my 02, but after the surgery, my attacks were less frequent and intense.  Prior to the chemo, I stopped several meds (including the Verapamil) . . . attacks still manageable with the 02 (and ice) . . . thought it might have been the chemo "juices" . . . nope . . . the water! . . . which is required in large amounts to keep my neo-bladder and kidneys flushed to cut down on UTIs (have had several).   I still will tell folks not to discount "water X 3", but always with the warning, "it IS NOT easy to do.

  I think you've got something with the D3, and if I can find some smaller fish oil capsules (can't tolerate the big ones), will start adding that to my daily regimen.

  Thanks again,

    Be Safe,   PFDANs

     (mostly pf) Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 5th, 2011 at 2:23am
Hey Richard,

Thanks for the update. According to a number of Integrative physicians and dietitians who recommend vitamin D3 supplements, 5,000 I.U. is a perfectly good target maintenance dose.

Your diet sounds a lot like mine with the exception of my choice of fluids...  OJ and coffee in the morning (I roast my own green coffee beans), lemonade...  or occasionally margarita mix (sometimes with tequila) for lunch, water and a couple cans of diet coke during the day... at least one or two with some Demerara rum any time the sun's over the yardarm, and a glass of wine a couple times a week with dinner.

It sounds like you know your body a lot better than most so my guess is you'll titrate the dose of the other supplements accordingly.

There are still a lot of unanswered questions about this regimen... like why it works well for some and not as well for others...  or why CH'ers who don't benefit from taking this regimen appear to have similar comorbidities...  but we're working on ways to connect the dots.

Take care and thanks for the update...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by beautyofthebeast on May 8th, 2011 at 6:35am
Fantastic thread...thank you so much Batch for posting  :-*

My story so far..........

I have been episodic for 25 years, each bout lasting approx 3-4 months. I have been in cycle since Nov 2009, so believe I am now chronic. I was taking 960mg verapamil, O2 and Imi injections to control the 3-4 daily hits.

After reading this post 5 weeks ago, I went to my local pharmacy and bought the Omega 3 fish oil caps and vitamin D tablets.

I started taking 4000mg omega 3 fish oil and 2 x 25 ug (2 x 1000 iu) as well as the verapamil.

After a few days, the beast was gone and has been ever since  ;D.  I have tapered the verap dose and now take only 240 mg daily and hope to reduce this further.
I have passed the beer test and the G&T test  :D  ;D feel less tired and can now go to the loo again  :-[

So far, amazing...I will keep you updated.

Adrienne xx




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 8th, 2011 at 1:22pm
Hey Adrienne,

Great feeling isn't it? 

Good on you for giving this regimen a try and reporting the results.

It's going to take a week or two...  but I hope to have an on-line survey tool available on this regimen so that folks who've tried it can report their results. 

This should help us to collectively get our arms around this regimen so we can answer the question of efficacy more accurately and the dosing levels that appear to work best. 

The really important information this survey will provide will come from the folks who don't get the same response as you or me... I suspect the same list of comorbidities will solidify and that will provide the folks researching cluster headache with a new perspective and areas to investigate.

With information in hand from a survey like this, we'll be able to take the next steps towards a study... 

Again, thanks for the feedback...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Amanda07 on May 8th, 2011 at 7:59pm
SO I thought I'd give a quick little update - I was on 4000 IU of VD3 and 3000 of Omega Fish Oil (now on 4500 because I'm taking the liquid form) and I was completely pain free for 13 days...then suddenly my shadows were back in force, I have no idea why! I've upped to 5000IU for the last 3 days and I'm hoping to go back to PF (because my GOD was that wonderful) but so far no luck. Any ideas why it would have been working wonderfully and then suddenly gone kaput?

Prior to the 13 days, I had been on lower amounts - I started at 1000 IU and then when I had a day of light shadows, I upped the dosage which was working. Between each upping of a dose, the pain free time became longer...And within 2 days I would see the results of the upping. This time I'm 3 days out from upping to 5000 IUs and it hasn't really changed much. I'm only getting lower level kips but that's normal for me. I would love to hear anyone's thoughts...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wishbone on May 8th, 2011 at 9:46pm
You did not mention that you were taking calcium citrate.  This you need to do, but maybe you should really increase you dose of D3 to 10,000 IU per day for a couple of weeks.  Also are you drinking lemonade with lunch and diner?  Not to bore everyone with my questions, but I actually started with 20,000 IU of D3 per day for 3 weeks, along with 3,600 mg of Fish Oil and 3000 mg of Calcium Citrate.  I think it worked so now I am on a maintenance dosage of D3 which is 5,000 IU per day. 

Bottom line you are at best now just taking the maintenance dosage and not the the wham bam dosage of D3.

Good luck and I hope and pray you are PF and Shadow free soon
Wishbone

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by stingynina on May 11th, 2011 at 5:02pm
I am an in home care provider and I have a client who has been suffering this head pain for years, and just last week was diagnosed with CH.  After all this time....they kept saying it was sinus...blah blah blah....well...FINALLY this crackpot doctor sent him to a neurologist.....they put him on prednisone (sp) and vicodin.  He has these every few minutes all day long.  After reading up on CH, and finding this thread, I called him right away and told him about the Fish Oil and vitamin D3.  What does he have to lose except the crippling pain of CH?  He is 87 years old.  I will keep you posted on his results.  Thanks for the insight Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on May 11th, 2011 at 9:18pm
Stingynina

  Thanks for taking the effort to help your patient.

  The D3 & Omega3 regimen does look very promising and I believe it's responsible for my current (mostly) pf period.  Have been chronic since 1/01 and this place saved my life.  Take another step:

  See if you can find a way to get him oxygen.  Is a miracle abortive for most of us . . . please read more about it's use/effectiveness.

  Would you post another introduction (or copy your post and post it)  on this board (Meds/Therapies) . . . or the "Getting to Know ya" board? . . . more foks will see/read the thread and you'll get numerous suggestions .  .  . and here, they come from people who truly know his pain.

   Be Safe.

     Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 12th, 2011 at 4:58pm
87 !!!  Yikes !!!  :o

Stingynina, at this point I thought my going into remission was either due to this regimen or I'd outgeezed the beast...   Looks like my age may not be a factor given your home care client's age with CH...

Please keep us posted on the results if he gives this regimen a try.

Thanks and take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on May 13th, 2011 at 6:52am
In addition to Batch's Omega3 Regimen, I'm also taking 250mg Topiramate each day (125 morning and night). The longest gap between attacks is about 9 days before starting on Omega3/D3, and since then I'd probably gotten to 12-13 days when I missed a couple morning doses of both Omega3 and Topiramate.

If you know anything about Topiramate, altering the dose (or missing a dose) messes with your equilibrium. I thought it a bit odd that I felt off balance this week. Just slightly, needing to put my hand on the desk to steady myself, or nearly walking into a filing cabinet at work. Not quite dizzy, just slightly off kilter. Wasn't till I went to take my evening dose that I realised I'd missed my mornings.

But, more than that, it also might explain the killer clusters of the last two evenings. I haven't been on the Omega3 regimen long enough to say for sure that it has made a difference, so this might all be premature. But since January, the longest I've gone is 9 days cluster free. And since being on Omega3 I've gone more than 12 (will need to check my calendar later to be sure of the numbers). But then when I miss a dose or two I get hit. Well, makes it interesting.

Granted, it could just be that the gap is getting a bit longer of its own accord and the Omega3/D3 is having no effect. Will know more in a month or two when I've had time to give it a proper test.

Oh, and just to add, I haven't yet added zinc to the mix. I know that is part of the regimen, and probably will one day. But seems to be effective for me without it, so far.

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bejeeber on May 13th, 2011 at 11:12pm
Good call stingynina about getting the 87 year old on the vitamin D3.

Those are some hellacious drugs to have been prescribed to an 87 year old. I hope O2, D3 etc. can provide relief instead.

I'd never heard of an 87 year old with CH before. A sit scary for those of us who've been hoping for a complete remission if we reach elderly status, as apparently is often the case.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by scottr1966 on May 14th, 2011 at 3:06pm
Hey guys, I have not been here in a while and I have never posted much here. I have been actively engaged at cluster busters for about a year. On the vitamin regimen, I had started the D3, Fish Oil, Magnesium/Calcium a couple of weeks ago. Initially I took only 800iu of D3 along with 3600mg Fish Oil, and a Calcium/Mag/Zinc combo per day. I don't know if any one else has had this side effect but my tongue and throat became kind of raw so I stopped the whole regimen and it cleared up. I wonder which of these supplements caused that or was it the combo of them all? I may just re-start with the D3 and see what happens. Then begin to incorporate the others, any thoughts on this?

Also I was nauseous. Is this the D3?  Never mind. I took one 5000iu pill today and I am nauseous. Of course I take all this with food.

Thanks,
Scott

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by alleyoop on May 14th, 2011 at 3:13pm
OK, just for the record, here are my results:

I took the following for 10 days:

10,000 i.u. (2-5,000) D3 - Nature's Bounty

3600mg (3-1200mg) Fish Oil - Omega 3&6 - Nature's Bounty

2 Calcium Citrate tablets - Kroger store brand - containing
630mg calcium
500 i.u. vitamin D
10mg sodium

At least 2 20oz glasses of fresh squeezed lemonade



I am in high cycle and was averaging 2 to 4 hits daily.  After 3 days, my activity actually picked-up to 4 to 8 hits daily.  I also started having up to 4 wake-up hits per night.  Six days of this convinced me that the regimen was not only not working for me, but possibly making it worse.

As soon as I stopped, the hits started decreasing, but that may well be coincidental.  I busted with a half gram of psilocybin taken on my last bad night, and it seems to have done the trick.  It has now been 10 days post D3 regimen, and I am having more PF days than otherwise.  Also the wake-up hits have stopped.  This by no means means that this D3 regimen doesn't work; it just didn't work for me.  It could be that my cycle is winding down, and that it coincided with stopping the alkaline regimen.  At any rate, I am not complaining.  The meds that I take daily could also possibly be responsible for my lack of success (see Caveat).

Caveat:
The following meds are taken daily:

AM:
verapamil 240mg
clomiphene citrate 50mg
folic acid 800mcg
omeprazole 80mg

PM:
verapamil 240mg
melatonin 9mg
simvastatin 40mg
ambien prn

I am happy that there have been so many success stories with D3; it just didn't seem to work for me.  :-/

bobb

P.S.
I don't know if the fact that I was using a calcium supplement that didn't include magnesium and zinc, had anything to do with it or not.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on May 14th, 2011 at 4:04pm
Hi bobb

It took me 2 months to get pain free with 5000 IU vit-D3 and 500 mg magnesium. Now 2˝ years later still no CH.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by alleyoop on May 14th, 2011 at 6:28pm
Thanks for the feedback nhs!  I'll definitely give it another go, and use the right calcium supplement this time.  I'll also give it a couple of months and report back here what happens.

bobb

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 15th, 2011 at 5:39pm
Bobb,


alleyoop wrote on May 14th, 2011 at 3:13pm:
I don't know if the fact that I was using a calcium supplement that didn't include magnesium and zinc, had anything to do with it or not.


Magnesium and zinc both play a significant roll in this regimen.  Magnesium is involved in many of the cluster headache related processes and zinc is essential not only for for our immune systems, it's also a key element in carbonic anhydrases, an enzyme we need for hemoglobin to function effectively in releasing carbon dioxide into exhaled breath.

I've found the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate formulated with additional vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc works best for me.  I get it along with the rest of this regimen at Costco...  In a pinch you can also use Citracal Plus Bone Density Builder™ as it has a similar formulation of the above components.

Most of the CH'ers who have followed this regimen at the doses I take reported an improvement in 24 to 48 hours.

That you haven't responded to this regimen is not surprising.  It could be due to the missing magnesium and zinc, a low arterial pH or both.  It could also be due to an irritant or allergic reaction that's in your environment or food that's resulting in a level of  neurogenic inflammation that will take longer to overcome with this regimen.  Peanuts and gluten are two potential allergens you might want to avoid for a while to see what happens



alleyoop wrote on May 14th, 2011 at 3:13pm:
The following meds are taken daily:

AM:
verapamil 240mg
clomiphene citrate 50mg
folic acid 800mcg
omeprazole 80mg

PM:
verapamil 240mg
melatonin 9mg
simvastatin 40mg
ambien prn

I am happy that there have been so many success stories with D3; it just didn't seem to work for me.


You'll have to forgive me for laughing at the laundry list of med's you're taking a.m. and p.m.   I'm not making fun of you because many years ago when I was first diagnosed with ECH...  I did the same thing.  I had two pill caddies, an a.m. and p.m. caddy, both loaded for my week's supply laundry list of meds.

It didn't take long for me to discover the preventatives had too many adverse side effects...   Too little relief and too many onerous side effects...  In short the risk:reward ratio sucked...  and I was still getting hit.

I stopped taking all the prevents, accepted the fact that I was going to take hits, but was very confident that oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation could abort my CH very reliably in an average of 3 to 7 minutes depending on the pain level.

I still kept imitrex (sumatriptan succinate) handy for the times I was trapped away from my oxygen therapy kit like during air travel where I would get nailed on every flight.  There were also times in the early years where I was taking the maximum daily dose of imitrex tablets for so long I developed angina.

I also see you're taking statins...  Your cardiologist or PCP must think that's the only way to keep your cholesterol in check... 

I went through a bout of elevated cholesterol and triglycerides during a clinical study for an unrelated condition at NIH.  Part of the study protocol called for sirolimus (rapamune), an immunosuppressant normally given to kidney transplant patients to prevent rejection.  It has a well known side effect of jacking up cholesterol and triglyceride levels...  and it did.  My total cholesterol jumped from 167 to over 250 and my triglycerides climbed well above the normal levels in one week on sirolimus.

The Principal investigator for this study gave me two options...  Go on statins (neither of us wanted to do that), or go on a low cholesterol diet with Omega 3 Fish Oil. I cut out sugars and limited intake of carbohydrates. 

I ate lots of green & yellow veggies lean meat, chicken, and fish.  I also started taking 3600 mg. Omega 3 Fish Oil and a natural plant sterol called Cholestoff.

In two weeks my total cholesterol was below 190 and my triglycerides were back in the normal range.  A month after starting this regimen, my total cholesterol was below 150...  and I was still taking sirolimus...  What I'm saying is there are other ways to reduce cholesterol levels...  you just need to discuss this with your cardiologist or PCP.

All that is history...  Since starting the anti-inflammatory regimen I no longer need to take any of the abortives...  and that includes oxygen. 

The light came on shortly after starting this regimen last October...  For over 16 years I'd been taking very potent and very expensive medications with all kinds of side effects because my neurologists and I though they were needed...  yet I was still getting hit...  What I wasn't doing was giving my body it needed.

The physicians who practice integrative medicine are clearly on to this as well.  They still treat with many of the same pharmaceuticals but only in moderation and only if the more holistic methods of diet, vitamins and mineral therapy are not achieving the desired therapeutic effect.

Accordingly, since last October I've taken only the anti-inflammatory regimen...  My goal was to come off all the invasive med's and control my CH through more holistic methods... 

It's working...  My wife takes it as well and she doesn't have CH.  Both of us feel great, we're loaded with energy and both of us have lost weight.  My guess is the weight loss is due to the increased activity made possible by this regimen.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on May 15th, 2011 at 7:17pm
A bit of an update

I mentioned that I haven't had a real "dance" with the beast in over a year.  Friday, I called my pharmacist to ask when I got my script for D3 (I think 20,000 IU per day for a month) . . . 1/13/10 . . . fourteen months ago . . . have been taking 5,000 IU per day since.

What hits I am getting are all VERY low level and killed quickly with the 02  . . .  and can go a week or more without any sign of the beast.

So  . . . am going to alternate 5K & 10K IU daily and add the omega 3 fish oil (my druggist is going to order the smaller capsules for me . . . can't tolerate the big ones), and the calcium citrate.

You may have found a "magic bullet" for many Batch (especially for Auban Bird I hope).

Will keep you apprised.

   Be Safe . . . CONTINUED PFDANs

       Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dewalt on May 15th, 2011 at 9:15pm
This is my first post I've been having ch for 23 years I'm taking depakote 500 mg one in the morning and one at night and verapamil 240mg in the morning I started taking vitamin d3 10000iu and omega3 fish oil 3000mg last monday with no results still having 4 to 5 hits a day started the caltrate yesterday will let you know how it turns out

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AubanBird on May 15th, 2011 at 9:30pm
wow.   i just got done reading all nine pages.  i didnt do that before i started on the D3/fish oil.  i just saw vitamin D3 and fish oil was working for someone and remembered somebody talking about vitamin D and headaches on a family talk show adn though "why not?  cant hurt..."  i didnt expect for the headaches to completely go away!  i had no ideah it was working for so many people.  i guess its good i have an open mind...  then again, my opend mind lends me to trying things like capsaicin.  to be fair though, the incredible caughing and sneezing fits the first few times i squirted the stuff('chets gone made' from tiajuana flats) up my nose did seem to abort them...  anyway, im glad i landed at this site.  i do have a question though, does anyone know if kidney and liver damage would effect vitamin d levels?  i only ask because of my medical history, with my CH getting really bad after my kidneys and liver almost failed due to rhabdomyolisis.  i have no ideah how i recovered from that injury, as the doctors werent even sure i would live when they first wheeled me in.  just stubborn i guess.  i know the huge lactic acid buildup from that accident wreaked havoc on my arterial ph...  anyway, ill continue posting progress on my intro thread, in "getting to know ya"
Bird

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 16th, 2011 at 11:21am
Hey Bird,

The body synthesizes its own vitamin D3 in the skin when exposed to the UV in direct sunlight and can make 10,000 I.U. in as little as 30 minutes if no sun block is used.  Omega 3 fatty acids are present in highest concentrations in cold water fish like herring, sardines and salmon.

There shouldn't be any worry about toxicity dosing with 10,000 I.U. of vitamin D3, but it's a good idea to consult with your doctors given your history of compromised renal and hepatic functions before you start this regimen. 

You should include the calcium citrate tablets formulated with magnesium and zinc.  The extra calcium and magnesium is needed with higher doses of vitamin D3 in order to build and maintain bone mass.  Zinc plays a role in several functions in the body including the immune system and it's also an essential element in carbonic anhydrase, an enzyme that helps transport carbon dioxide from the body to the lungs for release in exhaled breath.

Hope this helps.

Take care, 

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 16th, 2011 at 12:25pm
Dewalt,

Are you also taking the calcium citrate formulated with additional vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc?  It appears these mineral supplements are essential parts of this regimen.

If you are taking it, you might want to check through this thread for some posts I made on comorbidities.  You can use the search box at the upper left part of this page to search for links discussing the comorbidities CH'ers are reporting who are not seeing the same results as others with this regimen.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dewalt on May 16th, 2011 at 5:06pm
I started taking the citracal with d3 magnesium and zinc saturday the ch's were a little less severe today aborted pretty quickly with oxygen can you explain more about the comorbidities it seems like cutting grass always triggers a headache even with a mask this cycle as been the worse i have ever had and the longest 4and half months usually 3 months nothing has seemed to work

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AubanBird on May 16th, 2011 at 8:42pm
thank you for your reply batch.  i just got done looking up everything i could about vitamin D production, most of it by looking up things on this page:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

it left me with far more questions than answeres, but it was a good start for my quest for knowledge.  it also left me wishing i kept all those textbooks on biochemistry...(i was a wierd kid...)
-Bird

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 17th, 2011 at 12:25am
Dewalt,

A rough tally of folks who have not had a marked decrease in the frequency or severity of their CH after a few days on this regimen revealed a not too surprising finding...  They all suffered from one or more of the same group of comorbid conditions/disorders that ranged from cardiac insufficiency with stents and pacemakers, diabetes, thyroid insufficiency, renal insufficiency, COPD, and some I suspect are having an allergic reaction to some form of allergen.

The interesting thing about these disorders is they either have the capacity to lower arterial pH which results in a general vasodilation, or they result in a general inflammation that likely spreads to the trigeminal ganglion area that also triggers vasodilation.

In either case the level of vasodilation and inflammation is such that this regimen is unable to overcome it.  If you think about it, there are folks who do not get relief from taking prednisone...  and that's a very powerful anti-inflammatory.

The first thing I'd suggest is to contact your PCP and get an annual physical with a good lab workup including a complete chem panel & CBC.  Even if you're already taking 5,000 to 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day, having your 25(OH)D serum levels checked to verify your level of of this vitamin D3 metabolite is a good idea and will help you calibrate the dosage. 

The attached paper on vitamin D3 deficiency provides the suggested levels for the 25(OH)D test.  Bird, you might find this paper interesting too.

Other than that, cutting out all forms of gluten, sugars (fresh fruits like oranges apples and bananas are OK), and peanuts for a start might help as these are common causes of allergic reactions. 

A diet high in alkaline forming and anti-inflammatory foods might also help.  A good listing of these food types can be found at the following links:

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START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Vitamin_D_deficiency.pdf (41 KB | 132 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 17th, 2011 at 2:01pm
Hey Scott,

Thanks for the post on the vitamin D3, Omega 3 Fish Oil and calcium supplements.  Sorry to be so slow in responding. 

STOP TAKING VITAMIN D3 !!!  It appears from the symptoms you've listed, you are having an allergic reaction.  If any of the symptoms persist see your doctor asap. 

The incidence of reactions to vitamin D3 are relatively low but they do exist.  Be sure to read page 2 and 3 of the following link for reactions and possible interactions with other medications or comorbid conditions:

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The reaction may be due to the vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol), but it could also be a reaction to one or more of the other ingredients of the vitamin D3 liquid softgels you're taking.

Depending on the mfgr...  the other ingredients include but are not limited to: propylene glycol, soybean oil, gelatin, or vegetable glycerine.

What brand of vitamin D3 are you using and what are the other listed ingredients?

What brand of calcium citrate mineral supplements were you taking? 

If you were using the Kirkland brand, two capsules contain 800 I.U. vitamin D3.  If you had no reaction to this formulation, it could be one or more of the other ingredients in the vitamin D3 liquid softgels that's causing the allergic reaction.  This brand of calcium citrate also contains propylene glycol so if there was no reaction, it may not be the propylene glycol that's causing problems.

Finally, did you have any problems taking the Omega 3 Fish Oil?

Thanks again, and please keep us posted. 

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dewalt on May 17th, 2011 at 7:13pm
Thanks Batch. I will call my pcp tomorrow and set up an appointment for a physical and will let you know how it comes out. I'm going to take this information with me and discuss it with him

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 18th, 2011 at 2:39am
Dewalt,

Good move!!!  As I've said before and I'll say it again...  I'm not a doctor. 

I started this post to let fellow CH'ers know what was working for me. If my results made it sound good enough to try...  I suggest a talk with your primary care physician or neurologist first... 

Even over-the-counter vitamins, minerals and supplements can produce a reaction as we've already seen in some of the comments...

In the age of medical specialization, it's not inconceivable to see several specialist who don't have the big picture with respect to your overall health or have a complete tally on all the medications you're taking...

It's kind of like the three blind men coming up to an elephant...  One blind man claimed the animal was docile and has very big ears...  The second blind man claimed the animal has a marvelous prehensile nose that can suck peanuts right out of your hand...  or pocket...

The third blind man wasn't having anything to do with the descriptions provided by the first two blind men...  He thought this was a vile and disgusting animal...  saying...   "I pulled on its tail and got showered with very large and smelly Nairobi trail markers...

My analogy might not be spot on...  but the point I'm trying to make should be very clear...  We all need a physician who keeps tabs on all that ails us and all the medications we're taking... even OTC meds, vitamins, and minerals...

The Navy thought so much about this concept they came up with Flight Surgeons...  Doctors who completed med school, internship, and then the Navy stuck them in the cockpit of an airplane and taught them how to fly so they could understand what we pilots were going through from a medical, physiological and psychological perspective...

I learned the basic rule a long time ago... There are no secrets between me and my Flight Surgeon... 

It was not uncommon to take the Squadron Flight Surgeon up on a hop in one of our jets...  If nothing else, it proved he... or she... was just as spellbound over the magic of flight as we were...

Make it a point to discuss your cluster headaches and any other medical condition you may have along with all the prescribed and OTC med's you're taking with your primary care physician (PCP).  It just makes good sense...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on May 23rd, 2011 at 3:49pm
Hi Batch

Just checking in, still completely pain free, lots of days now.  Pretty sure I am out of the episode, would ordinarily be due another batch in the next four weeks.  Feeling great, less tired, skin is great, teeth feel wonderful, joints are free and smooth.  Partner is just asking when it will stop me farting!
Seriously I have had complete relief since i started taking the regimen.  Have spoken to a couple of friends one who has really acute migraines nad they are trying as well.  Will get back to you with their results.
Wondering when I send my O2 back, think I will wait until I have missed for a long time.
Thank you again for sharing.
Ian ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 25th, 2011 at 1:29pm
Hey Ian,

Thanks for the update.  Wonderful feeling isn't it?  My oxygen kit has been sitting in the corner under a dust cover since last October...   

Feed partner the same regimen along with some oatmeal with extra oat bran and try for a duet.

I'm keenly interested in reports from migraneurs on this regimen.  There's reason to suspect it will help them too.

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Amanda07 on May 28th, 2011 at 8:16pm
Hi guys! I have a question about the zinc and magnesium...is there a certain level we should be taking or aiming for? I'm currently taking just a zinc, B6 and magnesium tablet because my chemist had run out of the calcium/mag/zinc/vit d one and I'm wondering whether this is affecting the level of success...when searching for something to take until they get the others back in, I wasn't sure what levels of mag and zinc I should be looking for. Any thoughts?

I am doing better since I started the mag and zinc, but haven't returned to the blissful pain free days I original had - still getting annoying shadows...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 29th, 2011 at 11:42pm
Hey Amanda,

Good question.

The ingredients for the anti-inflammatory regimen I started are shown below.  I get them at Costco.

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The calcium citrate tablets (2 each) that I take daily contain 500 mg. calcium, 800 I.U. vitamin D3, 80 mg. magnesium, 10 mg. zinc and a trace of copper...

The Kirkland brand formulation with calcium citrate easier on the tummy than calcium carbonate, it satisfies the additional calcium required when dosing with vitamin D3 at or above 5,000 I.U. and the calcium citrate also acts as a buffer on the stomach's gastric juices when washed down with lemonade or limeade high in citric acid.

If you can't get the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate, Citracal Plus Bone Density Builder® is formulated with similar levels of each ingredient. If you can't get either brand, try to match the ratio of ingredients listed above.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Amanda07 on May 30th, 2011 at 8:23am
Thanks so much Batch! I'm in Australia so I find it difficult to match brands (without buying online) so I'll be able to search for something similar with those amounts.

The tablets I'm using at the moment while waiting on the restock of the citrate tablets contain Zinc sulfate monohydrate 15.6mg (equiv. to elemntal zinc 5.7mg), B6 25mg and Magnesium oxide - heavy 51.5mg (equiv. to elemental magnesium 30mg) and I take these three times a day. So while I'm taking more zinc then your tablets, the mag still seems a little low (going off the elemental numbers)

Hopefully they have the citrate back in when I go down tomorrow!!!

I will say that although I'm still getting shadows, I'm slowly tapering off my verapamil and nothing is getting worse which definitely means that the regime is doing something, not the verapamil. Hopefully when I get all the numbers right for a while, I'll go back to PF!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on May 30th, 2011 at 7:41pm
Hi Amanda

Didn't realise you where from Oz.

I use the Natures own brand Magnesium/Calcium  & separate Zinc from Woollies; cheaper than the Chemist or Health food shops.
I haven't been able to find a combo of the 3 Vits, one thing to remember is if you take Magnesium alone for any length of time you will need to supplement with Calcium as the Magnesium will block the natural intake of the Calcium & cause muscle & joint pain.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Amanda07 on May 31st, 2011 at 6:39am
Hey Barry! Thanks for that! And yep, Aussie through and through :)

Yes I was considering a mag/cal and a separate zinc...or a mag/zinc and separate cal. I did find one with the bunch today, but didn't purchase it just yet. I might write down the levels in it when I go past the chemist tomorrow and then run it by everyone before purchasing...I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head! It might work out better to have them separate. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sandie99 on Jun 7th, 2011 at 2:25pm
Batch,

This trial is now known here in Finland, too. I checked one Finnish ch site and there it was, one other clusterhead had added it there. :)

So I'm not the only Finn who knows about this and can check it out. I added omega3s into my daily vitamin regimen in early April and results are clear: it helps me, too.

Only the flu (which begun last week) brought ch back. Otherwise, I only got problems when I was visiting my aunt and was not able to take my vitamins on time.

PF days to all,
Sanna 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jun 7th, 2011 at 2:32pm

Quote:
I only got problems when I was visiting my aunt and was not able to take my vitamins on time.

I can only conclude that you should NOT visit your aunt anymore. She sounds like a tyrant.  ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 7th, 2011 at 7:11pm
Sanna,

Thank you for the SITREP on the anti-inflammatory regimen from Finland and that it's working for you.  Great News!

I hope to have an Internet survey site set up in the next few weeks to capture some data on this regimen from CH'ers who have given it a try...  That way when I take the results to the leadership of the International Headache Society, we might just generate enough interest for a multi-site international study of this regimen... 

Favorable results from a study of this regimen could result in its expanded use worldwide as a more effective, less expensive and healthy alternative to the more invasive medications prescribed for CH today.

Thanks again for the update and take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Jun 23rd, 2011 at 4:11am
Hi,
I just wnted to update you on my latest Dr visit. I have been on 14,000iu D3 for 4 months so they sent me for some blood tests. It turns out that my vitamin d levels are so low they are "through the floor" and "little old ladies that never get sunlight and are being tube fed have higher levels".
Calcium, magnesium etc were all within the normal range. So I have been prescribed 20,000iu daily with a view to further blood test in 3 months. Has anyone else had this blood test and if so what were the results?
Also, due to the wonderful Batch and his vitamin regime, my Dr has prescribed this to another CH and he is now also pain free  ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 23rd, 2011 at 2:18pm
Oxyrunner,

Outstanding feedback!  Thank you!  The blood test for 25(OH)D, the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3 is the only other way of knowing you're taking an effective therapeutic dose other than experiencing a marked reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH, or better yet, going into a pain free remission. 

Having your doc up your vitamin D3 dose to 20,000 I.U. a day and prescribe this regimen for another CH'er who went pain free using it is a great endorsement.

A quote from the paper by Dr. Peter J. Lewis, MD on vitamin D3 deficiency is worth reading again...

He suggested that all patients should have their vitamin D levels routinely checked at least once or twice a year.

"As a practical guide to diagnosis and management, I would suggest the following (25OHD levels in nmol/L):

• <100 = Deficient
• 100-200 = Optimal
• 135-225 = Normal in sunny countries
• 500+ = Potentially toxic (this would require a sustained daily intake ≥ 40,000 IU)

[Note: To convert to nmol/L to ng/ml, divide by 2.5]

As far as treatment is concerned, a good rule of thumb (based on my personal experience of treating 100’s of vitamin D deficient patients) is that a dose of 1,000 IU of cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) will raise 25OHD
levels by approximately 10 nmol/L over 3 months.

Thus, an appropriate individualized dosage can be easily calculated. Therefore, for a patient with an initial blood level of 50 nmol/L, a daily dose of 10,000 IU/day would be required to raise their 25OHD level to about 150 nmol/L (i.e. the middle of the optimal range) over 3 months."

In another paper he indicated an even higher dose of vitamin D3 would raise the 25OHD level even faster...

Again, many thanks for the outstanding feedback.  Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kay Jay on Jun 25th, 2011 at 2:14am
Batch,

I suck at reading my email lately. somehow my blackberry has a permanent x for all internet functions so i'm not receiving my emails in a a timely manner. i did get your email just like 5  min ago. thanks for providing me with that info. i feel stupid that i read it after i made my dumb thread :-/ . i'm going to look into your detailed regimen and try to acquire all that is needed. hopefully this does work for me and thanks for paying attention to detail on what has worked for you. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Garys_Girl on Jun 27th, 2011 at 11:24pm
Well, the pred never worked for Gary, but I'm armed with the needed supplements, and I started Gary on D3 and Citrical Plus (with mag and zinc) today.  The max Omega 3 I found was 300mg so didn't bother.  Hopefully I'll be able to add it tomorrow.

I'm 99.9% sure he's got some kind of undiagnosed comorbid thing going on because of the insane fever episodes he still has.... but we'll give it a few months.

Heck - expect it'll make me feel better.  Maybe I'll sleep through the night. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jun 28th, 2011 at 9:36am
[smiley=hug.gif] Gary's Girl you are an amazing supporter. Sending positive vibes your way that you guys can get a handle on this damned thing.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dereksgirl on Jun 28th, 2011 at 11:06am
Hi Batch, glad to hear you are still PF!!
I thought I'd share my non CH experience with VD3, its been making me wonder...

A couple months ago after recognizing my 4yr deficient, we started giving him the liquid form from costco. He loved it and and would drink as much as we would allow him, so he had some very high doses. Nothing. Then about 6 weeks ago I started to feel an extreme fatigue return that I had experienced after my last pregnancy. (15 months ago)I had had my blood checked and was VERY low on VD3, my level was 23. I would literally drop to the floor in tears, not sure I could even crawl to my bed or the couch. (1st time I had ever had that checked or thought about it-lucky for me I was seeing midwives instead of docts or I probably would have been told it was my iron levels ;D) Anyways - so I knew the feeling and started taking the VD3 I had bought per Batches regimen for Derek (who has ECH). I also started to give it to my 4yr old, surprisingly he had no problem swallowing the pills and likes taking them (he is reading this right now and has reminded me that I don't have a 4yr old - he turned 5 this month  ;D ;D ;D)

What I expected was for our "tiredness" to go away (and Josiah's "hurting scalp" that I didn't know until reading one of Batches posts is a sign of VD3 deficiency).
What I didn't expect was for both of our sleeping patterns to be completely corrected. Josiah has ALWAYS had a hard time staying asleep. Since he was 2 and out of the crib he would get up and rock in his chair or go down and rock on the couch. (before then he would sit in his crib and bang his head. He broke 2 baby swings with his excessive banging. If we had him in the play pen he would bang so hard it would move across the room. He always had a knot on the back of his head. We have had him checked for autism-he really is perfectly normal besides this one weird trait) He always bangs his head back and forth when he is tired. He also would always be awake by 5am or sometimes earlier. Needless to say he was exhausted and jittery through out the day. Since being on VD3 he is sleeping in till about 7 am every morning - has not complained of his scalp hurting and we have not found him in his chair or on the couch...

It has had the opposite effect on me. I have ALWAYS had a very hard getting up in the mornings (we home school so can start our days later) It has always bothered me (and my hubby-I can be REALLY hard to wake up  :-/) but who can change when they wake up? Thought I was just a night owl. But since being on high doses (3-6000mg/day) My "clock" has reset all on its own. I have waken up at 5:30-6:00 every single day for the last 3 wks. I remember this happening 15 months ago when I doses on the VD3, but chocked it up to "more energy" as I had not found this sight and was not aware of the link it might have with the hypothalamus...but this time I wonder if the VD3 is doing more than just affecting the blood vessels, it seems to be having a direct affect on our internal clock...
PF wishes to all,
-DG

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 29th, 2011 at 5:59am
Hey DG,

What a wonderful post.  Thank you for taking the time to share it with us. 

It's good to hear the anti-inflammatory regimen and vitamin D3 have other marvelous health benefits over and above preventing cluster headaches or reducing their frequency.

I hope your post will encourage more CH'ers to give this regimen a try.

Take care and thanks again for the wonderful post.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Garys_Girl on Jul 3rd, 2011 at 3:10pm

Guiseppi wrote on Jun 28th, 2011 at 9:36am:
[smiley=hug.gif] Gary's Girl you are an amazing supporter. Sending positive vibes your way that you guys can get a handle on this damned thing.

Joe


[smiley=hug.gif] back at ya, and thanks!  But LOL, this time around I took a different tack.  Physical activity triggers his clusters, so he's gained some (ok, a lot) of weight.  I told him this is a weight loss regimen.  This way... he doesn't get his hopes up, he doesn't get to a point where he says "this isn't working, I'm not taking those anymore."  He might want a "magic bullet" to work quickly - but weight loss can take months and months and months....   :)

I've been making home-made lemonade that he is loving, so we're pumping him full of that.  He starts his morning with fresh-squeezed (yes, VALENCIA!) oranges (the health food store keeps them in stock).

We're still without insurance, so I gabbed with the health food store lady... and after doing the research (there is some, interestingly), I ordered and should receive shortly Twin Labs Tribulus Terristris extract - may have been discussed on these boards somewhere, but it apparently helps boost free testosterone back to normal levels.  AND I stuck him back on melatonin at night.  He got sick of taking it because it wasn't helping - now he doesn't even realize he's taking it LOL.  I just keep handing him pills.

My point, through all this blathering, is that hopefully, OVER TIME, as Barry and... Niels? - have experienced, this may help. They all seem to impact the proper hormone balance in the system (D3 is actually not a vitamin, but a non-sex hormone)... and we're not looking for pain free.  As one of the other heavy hitters pointed out, just lowering the frequently (or duration) of his hits would be wonderful.  *nodding*  Or, as Batch has tried to help us with before... just getting 02 to work again would be great (still have the M60 tanks and the on demand valve - and the Clustermask).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bejeeber on Jul 3rd, 2011 at 3:20pm
Gary's Girl - just checking with ya, what sort of melatonin dose range are you thinking of? Asking because last time I tried melatonin I gave up on it, only to learn later that the 9 mg dose I was taking that I thought was 'maximum', was pretty low compared to others who had gone all the way as high as 21 mg before obtaining relief.


Garys_Girl wrote on Jul 3rd, 2011 at 3:10pm:
we're not looking for pain free


I realize how nobody wants to have high hopes dashed, but I'll keep fingers crossed that you'll do better than you're looking for.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Garys_Girl on Jul 3rd, 2011 at 4:47pm
Thanks.  :)

We had him on 9, then 10 then 15mg for a long time.  Then I started experimenting with immediate release vs. extended release.

Right now I'm just giving him 10mg - 5 immediate release and 5 extended release.

Edited to add: re: the testosterone.  In numerous blood tests along the way, his testosterone levels were normal.  Then last year they dropped like a rock.  We have no idea what changed.  He got fed up of docs, journals, feeling like a guinea pig and a pin cushion, so when the androgel ran out, he never got tested again.  But it's definitely low - and Renee's post about brittle finger nails confirms that.  The terribulus terrestris extract has been shown to increase it back to normal, but not above - so it may help Gary (but wouldn't help people with normal levels who want to boost them, which apparently people do.  Whatever LOL).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jul 5th, 2011 at 9:11am
I've started taking 3-4000 mg fish oil (70% Omega 3), 180 mcg D3 (7.200 IU), 500mg calcium/magnesium and 1500mg Taurin.  My attacks mostly come while asleep. Some non-nocturnal attacks, usually fended off with 0.33 L Red Bull.

day 0: 4 heavy attacks per night (before starting)
day 1: 3 heavy attacks per night
day 2: 1 heavy, 1 moderate
day 3: 1 light (no Imitrex inj)
day 4: No attacks (no wake up), shadows in the morning.
day 5: Still nothing. I'm beginning to believe.

I've been episodic since 1990. 8-12 weeks cycles and blessed with 12-24 PF months and maybe 5 attacks a week on average.  Always left side. The last years I've experienced instabilities: several side changes, short cycles outside the scheme. The last year I've had lots of clusters with less than a month remission time. I believe that means I've become chronic. On the bright side, many of my attacks have been moderate enough to stay away from Imitrex. Even if I inject only 2mg, there is payback time to be expected from every shot.
Due to the manageability of my episodic cluster, I've never used O2. I am in the process of getting it now.

So far the D3 regimen feels promising. Absolutely no side-effects either, besides restlessness  :).  I will stay loyal to the regimen and report back.

Thanks for all excellent advices!  Rune

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Lawrence on Jul 5th, 2011 at 3:49pm
Hey guys....
I mostly lurk now.....just had to comment on Batch's amazing post....

I see so many numbers being thrown....what are the recommended numbers for starting this regimen, and what is the maintenance recipe?


The "recipe"
10,000 IU of Vitamin D3
3600 mg of Omega 3 fish oil
how much calcium citrate?


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 6th, 2011 at 10:39am
Hey Lawrence,

Good question.  I've found that keeping the proportions/ratios of this regimen's ingredients the same is key.  If we start with the critical component, vitamin D3, a maintenance dose could be 5,000 to 10,000 I.U./day, 500 mg. calcium/day is needed. 

I chose 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 as a conservative therapeutic dose, but I know several folks who take 15,000 to 20,000 I.U./day for therapeutic reasons. 

How much vitamin D3 you take for a maintenance dose depends on your other sources of vitamin D3 with the primary source being how much direct sunlight you get on exposed skin...  Your skin makes vitamin D3 for free...  (like 10,000 I.U. in as little as 30 minutes of direct sunlight in a bathing suit with no sun block...)

Age is also a factor in determining how much vitamin D3 we need...  As we get older, we need more vitamin D3 so the maintenance dose goes up. 10,000 - 15,000 I.U./day is not unreasonable.  My wife takes 15,000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day and claims she feels much better at that dose than at 10,000 I.U./day.  At 15,000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day she runs around the house and yard like a kid again...  and she doesn't have CH...  but she is a migraineur...

Back to your question on how much calcium citrate...  One of the many properties of vitamin D3 is it works in the gut to put more calcium into the blood stream.  Accordingly, 5,000 to 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3/day will require a minimum of 500 mg. calcium/day.  That's two of the Kirkland brand calcium citrate tablets formulated with additional vitamin D3, 80 mg. magnesium and 10 mg. zinc.  The magnesium and zinc are also essential elements and are listed as co-factors in vitamin D3 therapy.

2000 to 3000 mg. Omega 3 Fish Oil should be good for both a maintenance and therapeutic dose. 

When my cholesterol, triglycerides, and BP shot up into the red zone due to a medication I was taking that had a side effect of elevating these values, rather than taking a STATIN, my doctor and I chose a low cholesterol diet and a regimen of 3000 mg. Omega 3 Fish Oil and two of the CholestOff plant sterol tablets a day.  I was back in the green in two weeks.

The best way to accurately determine your vitamin D3 requirement is to ask for a blood test of 25(OH)D, the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3 the next time you see your PCP or neurologist.  The FDA recommended levels for this test are too low.  Nearly all the vitamin D3 gurus say our 25(OH)D levels should be in the 100 - 200 nmol/L range.

As a practical guide to diagnosis and management, Dr. Peter Lewis suggests the following (25OHD levels in nmol/L) be used as a guide:

• <100 = Deficient
• 100-200 = Optimal
• 135-225 = Normal in sunny countries
• 500+ = Potentially toxic (this would require a sustained daily intake >/= 40,000 IU)

[Note: To convert to nmol/L to ng/ml, divide by 2.5]

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Lawrence on Jul 7th, 2011 at 6:19pm
thanks Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Lawrence on Jul 12th, 2011 at 1:31am
Hello to all
I have been trying this anti-inflammatory regime for 5 days now.

10,000 IU of Vitamin D3
3000 mg of Omega 3 fish oil
600 mg of Calcium Citrate with zinc, mag, and d3

I have had little to no results with it so far.
I am also on 480 mg of verapamil daily.


I'll keep trying to see if it kicks in tho...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on Jul 12th, 2011 at 3:00am
Hi Batch

  Checking in with some bad news.  Although I am still willing to give the D3 some credit for my reduced attacks (see my post on page 9 of this thread), sad to report the beast must have read it too and remembered where I live . . . he's back with dancin' shoes on . . . will post/rant on the "Cluster Specific" board.

  I did add omega 3 fish oil & started taking zinc (50mg) & magnesium (250 mg), which we had on hand . . . the multivitamin I've taken for at least five years does contain zinc (15 mg) & magnesium as magnesium oxide (120 mg) . . . . they claim the zinc is 100% daily value and the magnesium as 30%.

  Any possibility the additional zinc & magnesium may have kicked off this series of nasty attacks?  Quit both a week ago . . . he's still kicking my butt.

  I too drink plenty of coffee, tea and usually take my meds with milk, plus plenty of water.

  REALLY hate to report the above.  Six "E" tanks got me through end of May (for the year) . . . 25 tanks for June til now . . . CRAP!

  Be Safe,   PFDANs

     Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Jul 12th, 2011 at 4:41pm
Batch/All,
Just wanted to drop in and give a quick update since I haven't been on the site in a number of months.

I've been taking 3,000 mg of Omega 3, 10,000 I.U. of D3 and the calcium citrate since the first week of March, 2011. I am pleased to say that since that date, I have had only 3 CHs and those were all within the 1st week following the start of the regime. Minus those 3 CHs, I've been PF for over 4 months now and enjoying every minute of it. After being chronic for nearly 3 years or so, I never thought I could be free from the beast. I get occasional shadows here and there, but those are weak and never drive me to caffeine like they previously did. This feels like a miracle!

Batch.......Being that I was chronic, is there any reason for me to STOP taking the regime at any time? Or can I continue to take it indefinitely without worries of complications, side effects, etc?  I read into the items in the regime and couldn't find anything that said I couldn't take them unless I was sick or on other meds, which I'm not.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 13th, 2011 at 5:52pm
ClosetCher,

Outstanding news and there's no reason to stop this regimen.  In fact, there's every good reason to continue taking it for the rest of your life...  Nothing could be better or more healthy for you... 

Our hearts, circulatory systems, brain, eyes, lungs, bones, immune system and I'm sure a lot more organs and bodily functions are loving us for taking this regimen. 

I was chronic for 6 years and went PF the second day of this regimen last October.  I'm still PF and I've taken it every day since then and so has my wife Joyce... 

She decided to up the vitamin D3 dose to 15,000 I.U. because it makes her feel better...  and she doesn't have CH...  Instead... she's bouncing around the house & yard like a kid...  I've had to up my vitamin D3 dose to 15,000 I.U./day just to keep up with her...

The vitamin D3 gurus claim 5,000 to 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day from all sources is a good maintenance dose and 10,000 to 15,000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day a therapeutic dose.  If you're not getting a half hour or more direct sun a day... 10,000 I.U. is likely a good maintenance dose.

The only real way to know is the next time you see your doc, ask for a blood serum test for 25(OH)D, the metabolite of vitamin D3.  If you're between 100 and 200 nmol/L, you're dosing correctly...

If you want to cut back to a daily regimen of 2000 mg. Omega 3 Fish Oil, 5,000 I.U. vitamin D3, and 500 mg calcium (two of the calcium citrate tablets), it should work just fine... 

Take care and thanks again for the wonderful news.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 13th, 2011 at 7:35pm
Richard,

Sorry to be so slow in responding, but where's the calcium citrate?  Did I miss something?  You need a minimum of 500 mg. calcium/day if taking vitamin D3 at doses ≥5,000 I.U. day.

The calcium citrate in this regimen serves multiple purposes.  The two most important are it's part of a buffering system and also a co-factor with the vitamin D3.

Without the calcium citrate, your arterial pH can drop like a rock stimulating more vasodilation and that makes for a higher frequency of more severe CH.  Washing down the calcium citrate tablets with lemonade, limeade, or margartia mix should help.  All three of these are high in citric acid content.  When the calcium citrate and citric acid hit the stomach they buffer the stomach's gastric juices (Hydrochloric acid at a pH of 1.0 to 2.0) up to a pH of 3.9.  That's a log number so that makes the stomach roughly 80 times less acid. 

Lawrence, you might want to start pushing lemonade with your calcium citrate as well...  Everything else looks fine from here.

Take care,
V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sandie99 on Jul 14th, 2011 at 4:13am
Little update from here: still happily PF. :)

It's great that other people are giving this a go. We're all different, but I hope it will work for may of us.

PF days & nights to us all,
Sanna

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Jul 14th, 2011 at 4:22am

sandie99 wrote on Jul 14th, 2011 at 4:13am:
Little update from here: still happily PF. :)

It's great that other people are giving this a go. We're all different, but I hope it will work for may of us.

PF days & nights to us all,
Sanna


That's good news Enjoy :)

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jul 14th, 2011 at 10:28am

sandie99 wrote on Jul 14th, 2011 at 4:13am:
Little update from here: still happily PF. :)

It's great that other people are giving this a go. We're all different, but I hope it will work for may of us.

PF days & nights to us all,
Sanna


great news from our blushing newlywed! ;)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Jul 14th, 2011 at 3:48pm
Hi gang,
Long time no see....I actually skipped the cycle last year.....only to have the beast return 2 weeks ago...:-(  Something like 20 years now of fighting him.  :'(

OK....I am 2 weeks into this cycle.  I work for a Physician that has recommended for all her patients to take 3000mg-4000mg of EPA/DHA.  I have only been taking 2000mgs. She also checks Vitamin D3 levels and most patients are on some form of Vitamin D3 now.  She likes to see the levels over 50 and under 100.  I have also only been taking 5000IUs of Vitamin D3......soooooooooo I will be increasing my Vitamin D3 to 10,000 IUs and double my EPA/DHA and see what happens.  She also recommends that you take the Vitamin D3 with food for better absorbtion....I will let you know what happens.

I soooooo appreciate you all who trying to find better ways to live with this beast.  I don't like being on all sorts of pharmaceuticals and O2 is the abort of choice. 

Blessings!
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Pfunk on Jul 15th, 2011 at 12:52am
I started taking this stuff on the 14th of June and am happy to say that I have been relatively PF since. I have only had 2 major hits since. Both times were on days when I either skipped by accident or, like last night had a stomach bug and really couldn't keep anything down. However, once I started back, I could definitely tell a difference. This stuff realy works. For the first time in as good while, I have not missed one day of work while in cycle :). Much luv and PF wishes to all.

Pfunk 8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Jul 20th, 2011 at 12:40am
Batch I have a question, not about CH, but about Vitamin D3 specifically.

I have heard SO many different things about what the toxic dose is, that I don't know what to believe. I'm taking 2000 IU a day. Here I read that you're fine as long as you don't take 40000 IU a day or more. But then some people say that if you take like, 1000 IU or even 500 IU, that you must get your blood checked to check your levels every month in case you don't overdose.

So... what exactly IS the limit? Is there even a limit? And why is there so much inconsistencies with regards to what a safe amount of D3 is? lol

I'm taking D3 just because I've read that it's really really good for you. And if I can safely take more than 2000 IU a day, then I will gladly do so. But I've heard so many things that I'm a little bit wary of doing that. lol

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sandie99 on Jul 20th, 2011 at 4:13am
Thanks Barry & Joe! :)

Btw, I don't know how to blush... ;D

PF days to us all,
Sanna

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 21st, 2011 at 7:00am
Hey Jair,

Good question.  From what I've learned... unless you're a cotton picking roofer or a life guard...  i.e., someone who works for a living outside in direct sunlight...  you're likely vitamin D deficient.

I'm not a doctor so I go to the experts in this area with questions like this.

Dr Peter J Lewis, an Integrative physician in Australia is one of my favorites.  I've been in contact with him on the anti-inflammatory regimen for cluster headache and specifically on the topic of vitamin D3 maintenance and therapeutic dosing.

The simple answer is 5000 to 10,000 I.U. is a good starting point as a maintenance dose of vitamin D3 from all sources and 10,000 I.U. of vitamin D3 from all sources is a good starting point for a therapeutic dose.  Taking daily doses of vitamin D3 higher than 15,000 may not be helpful for some of us as excess oral vitamin D3 is excreted in the bile.

Again, these are starting points.  I know several folks including myself who use a daily maintenance dose of 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3.  My wife takes 15,000 I.U. vitamin D3 daily with no adverse effects...  She claims it makes her feel better...  The only problem I have with her taking that dose is it gives her so much energy it's difficult for me to keep up with her.

The only real way to determine optimum dosing is to see your doctor and have your blood tested for 25(OH)D, the vitamin D3 metabolite. 

As a practical guide to diagnosis and management, Dr. Lewis suggests the following (25OHD levels in nmol/L):

• <100 = Deficient
• 100-200 = Optimal
• 135-225 = Normal in sunny countries
• 500+ = Potentially toxic (this would require a sustained daily intake >/= 40,000 IU)

[Note: To convert to nmol/L to ng/ml, divide by 2.5]

As Dr. Lewis treats vitamin D3 deficient patients and monitors their 25(OH)D levels regularly, he comments, "It is my experience that an ongoing dosage of 5,000-10,000 I.U. of cholecalciferol daily may frequently be required to maintain optimal 25(OH)D levels, especially in obese, elderly and darker skinned patients."

I've attached a hand out Dr. Lewis sent me last week that he provides to his patients that covers much of this.

The Vitamin D Council recommends that optimal health is supported by blood levels of 50-80 ng/mL (125-200nmol/L) as identified in a 25(OH)D3 vitamin D blood test.   Get this test along with a regular blood electrolyte (chem panel) test to make sure your calcium level is ok then repeat these tests after a month of higher vitamin D3 dosing to ensure dosing is sufficient. 

The vitamin D3 council also recommends calcium supplements containing magnesium and zinc be taken when supplementing with vitamin D3.  From my experience, 500 mg. to 1000 mg. calcium is a reasonable dose.  I find the calcium citrate form is well tolerated and easiest on the gut.

You can find a lot more information on vitamin D3 at the following links:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE
START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE
START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=VITAMIN_D_-_Dr__Lewis.pdf (186 KB | 14 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by gardengal on Jul 21st, 2011 at 11:13am
I do landscaping for a living all summer and would think I get enough vit D. Admit I only took the vit d and fish oil for 2 days, but noticed nothing. I was a little afraid of overdosing too.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 21st, 2011 at 2:28pm
Gardengal,

Unless you do your landscaping in a bathing suit without any sunblock...  in which case, please come help me... you may not be getting as much natural vitamin D3 from UVB as you think.

Dr. Lewis dismisses claims that folks living in Northern Australia get enough natural vitamin D3 because they live so close to the equator...  He sees folks with farmer's tans that still test below 100 nmol/L 25(OH)D.

The 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 I took along with the Omega 3 Fish Oil and calcium citrate as a therapeutic dose for my cluster headaches and still take today is a conservative dose... 

Per my post above listing the optimum levels of 25(OH)D as suggested by Dr. Lewis, most of us would need to take & make ≥40,000 I.U. vitamin D3/day for up to three months before our 25(OH)D would reach the potentially toxic level ≥500 nmol/L of 25(OH)D.

The only way to know for sure is to see your doctor and have your 25(OH)D level checked...  ask also for the chem panel & cbc test so you can make sure your calcium, other key minerals and electrolytes are in the normal range. 

This same test will also give you cholesterol and triglyceride levels...  If you've been taking the Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3, your cholesterol and triglyceride levels will likely be in great shape.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Jul 21st, 2011 at 2:35pm
Thanks for the info, Batch. The main reason I asked is because a friend of mine used to take 10,000 IU a day but then his doctor was like "DUDE what're ya doing?!? That's too much" and he took his dosage way down. lol I guess not all docs know the potency level of D3. I told one friend of mine who gets migraines about your regimen, and he said "Dude, that much D3 will kill ya." I guess more people need to learn that vitamin D3 is not as potent as they might think.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 21st, 2011 at 5:32pm
Jair,

Send your friend the pdf hand out file prepared by Dr. Lewis that I attached to my reply to your post on what's a toxic dose of vitamin D3. 

Dr. Lewis is one of a growing number of physicians who recognize the importance of maintaining healthy levels of vitamin D3 that are significantly higher than the FDA's outdated MDRs.

The Vitamin D Council at START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE covers this topic best with the following statements: 

"Can too much vitamin D be harmful? Yes, it certainly can - though anything can be toxic in excess, even water. As one of the safest substances known to man, vitamin D toxicity is very rare. In fact, people are at far greater risk of vitamin D deficiency than they are of vitamin D toxicity."

and

"Toxic doses

What exactly constitutes a toxic dose of vitamin D has yet to be determined, though it is possible this amount may vary with the individual.

Published cases of toxicity, for which serum levels and dose are known, all involve intake of ≥ 40000 IU (1000 mcg) per day. 1 Two different cases involved intake of over 2,000,000 IU per day - both men survived.

Serum levels: upper limit and toxicity threshold

Upper limit for a substance is the amount up to which is considered safe and without risk of adverse effects in the majority of the population.

Toxicity threshold for a substance is the amount beyond which over-saturation occurs and symptoms of toxicity manifest.

These values for 25(OH)D are as follows:

    Toxicity threshold level - 200-250 ng/mL (500-750 nmol/L)
    Upper limit - 100 ng/mL (250 nmol/L)

The large range between 25(OH)D’s upper limit and its threshold value implies a degree of safety at serum levels up to 100 ng/mL (250 nmol/L), since concentrations twice this amount have yet to ever be associated with toxicity.

In animal models, serum concentrations have reached as high as 400-700 ng/mL (1,000-1750 nmol/L) before toxic effects (severe hypercalcemia) were observed."

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Lawrence on Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:05am
I've been on this regimen for about 1 1/2 weeks.

It took awhile for it to get into my system.

I had to increase my vitamin d3 to 15000 IU's a day.

Now, my 3 hits a day have turned into a strong daily shadow.

so there is finally some progress for me, using this. thanks Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ken_DFA on Jul 22nd, 2011 at 11:43am
Batch,
 
Just wanted to quickly chime in and relate my experience using your regimen.  First off, THANK YOU for your efforts to find new avenues for treatments.  You're helping to improve the lives of others and that is incredible.
 
This year's cycle caught me totally by surprise.  I started the regimen approximately one week into the cycle.  At the same time, my order from Iamshaman  came in and I began dosing with RC on a weekly basis.
 
From the point where I started busting and taking the daily regimen, the severity of my hits dropped by about two K's.  Headache frequency decreased by roughly 25% with each subsequent week.  I went from getting hit twice a day to getting hit once a day and at this point (fifth week in), I haven't gotten a true headache in about 8 days. 
 
Backing up a bit, I cluster-busted my last cycle back in '09 using RC seeds and experienced the same decrease in headache frequency with weekly RC doses.  What I did not experience in '09, however, was the drop in headache intensity.  Even though the hits were dropping in frequency as time wore on, the intensity of the headaches continued to be in the K8-9 range - right up to the end of the cycle.
 
I therefore attribute this cycle's drop in headache intensity to the effectiveness of your regimen.  Likewise, I attribute the decrease in frequency of hits to the RC seeds, because I experienced the same thing in '09. 
 
That's just my gut feeling.
 
So while the regimen didn't instantly kill my headaches as it has for others posting on here, I will definitely put this into the "works" category and start the regimen again as soon as a new cycle begins (hopefully, not for another two years!!!!!).  The ability to knock a hit back from K8 down to a K6 is very significant as far as I'm concerned.
 
With much gratitude,
-Ken

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 22nd, 2011 at 12:48pm
Hey Lawrence,

Thanks for the feedback...  Hopefully the constant shadow will fade to a completely PF response in a week or two.

From reports like yours, it appears that some CH'ers don't respond to this regimen as fast as others.  In stead of a marked reduction in CH frequency and severity or complete remission after 48 hours...  some CH'ers are taking one to two weeks to get the same response.

Exactly why this happens is still unknown, but from the info exchange I had with Dr. Patterson in Australia, it appears the extra time is needed to build 25(OH)D3 levels in the fatty tissues to a sufficient level to allow serum levels to remain constant at a therapeutic level. 

Dr. Lewis also indicated it can take up to a month for 25(OH)D3 levels to build from >100 nmol/L to 150-200 nmol/L when dosing at 10,000 I.U./day.  Accordingly, this would also explain why some CH'ers who skip a dose during the first few weeks experience breakthrough cluster headaches or shadows.  This might also explain why it took a vitamin D3 dose of 15,000 I.U./day for you to start experiencing the benefits of this anti-inflammatory regimen on your cluster headaches.  Once you reach a totally PF response, you may be able to drop back to 10,000 I.U./day as a maintenance dose.

My wife takes 15,000 I.U./day without any adverse effects...  She claims it makes her feel better with a lot more energy.

Thanks again for the update.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 22nd, 2011 at 2:14pm
Hey Ken,

Thank you for the feedback and analysis of your response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  I'll jump to the point and wager you will not experience a CH cycle next year if you stay on this regimen.  I intend to stay on it for the rest of my life.  My wife also takes it and she doesn't have CH.

At less than 20 cents a day, >80% efficacy and no adverse side effects, it's good for the eyes, brain, bones, heart, lungs...  you can't say that for any of the other CH preventatives...

If you read through my reply to Lawrence, you'll see that it can take a couple weeks and sometimes a little longer build the serum concentration of 25(OH)D3, the vitamin D3 metabolite, up to a therapeutic level.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by stel on Jul 22nd, 2011 at 6:23pm
I'm on day 5 of this plan and so far no results - still getting 3 or 4 hits at night and occasional, less painful CHs in the day. 

I did want to mention something that my husband's doctor told him recently. He said that he recommends that people only take fish oil from Norway. He said that many fish oil supplements are now coming from China and they can be suspect...sometimes not fish oil at all. 

The person who posted about having an adverse reaction made me think about this. 

I'm still hopeful this will work for me! Stella

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 23rd, 2011 at 6:54am
Hey Stella,

Thanks for the post.  I share your aversion to food stuffs coming from China...  I did a good bit of research on the source of Omega 3 Fish Oil ingredients.  It turns out that most of the processed fish oil sold here in the US for use in the molecular distillation processing that yields Omega 3 Fish Oil comes from sardines, herring, and anchovies caught off the coast of Chile...

Nature Made is up front on it's assay for heavy metals listing it on the label and as a US firm...  I have no problem with their Omega 3 Fish Oil.  I take it daily...   

From my earlier posts on this page, you'll see that it can take some CH'ers a week or two and for others, as much as a month or two before the beneficial effects of this anti-inflammatory regimen start to manifest.   

It's still a theory at this point and like many of you, I'm still learning about this regimen, but until we get some before and after blood tests, it appears that CH'ers, who have very low 25(OH)D levels, tend to take longer to experience the benefits of this regimen at a dose of 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3/day. 

As 25(OH)D, the metabolite of vitamin D3 is fat soluble and is stored in the fatty layer under the skin, it appears the fat absorbs much of the initial dosing of the serum concentration of 25(OH)D and it doesn't build up to a therapeutic level in the serum to affect CH patterns until the fatty layer is nearly saturated.

Dr. Lewis points out in his paper  "Vitamin D Deficiency: more on diagnosis and management" that I've posted several times in this thread "...For a patient with an initial blood level of 50 nmol/L, a daily dose of 10,000 I.U./day would be required to raise their 25[OH]D level to about 150 nmol/L (i.e. the middle of the optimal range) over 3 months."

A few CH'ers who have discussed this regimen with their physician and had their 25(OH)D levels tested, reported they've been prescribed 20,000 I.U. vitamin D3/day to speed up the process of elevating their serum 25(OH)D.

Once you've been on this regimen for a month or so, the half life of 25(OH)D is roughly three weeks.  What that means is after a month, if you skip/miss a dose, it's no biggie...

Hope this helps and hang in there.  This is a very healthy regimen with more health benefits that just controlling your CH.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by stel on Jul 25th, 2011 at 12:20pm
Batch et al;
Just a quick update. The night after I posted that I'd not seen any let up as yet, I went through a night with no hits at all!  I rejoiced, not caring if it was the regimen or the end of this cycle.

So the next night I celebrated/tested it, and had a strong rum cocktail before dinner. I got three mega-hits before midnight.   :(

Last night I skipped cocktail hour and had one glass of white wine with dinner - no headaches all night!  :D

So perhaps it's working or it's the end of this round...I'll stay on the regimen for awhile and then go off and see what happens.  Thanks, Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 25th, 2011 at 1:00pm
You're awfully brave to do the booze test one day after a pf day. Most usually wait two weeks.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 25th, 2011 at 3:15pm
Hey Stel,

Thanks for the feedback.  If you'll do a little reading on the benefits of vitamin D3 and Omega 3 Fish Oil, you'll find there are a lot of very good reasons to continue with this regimen daily for the rest of your life...  That's what I'm doing and so is my wife...  and she doesn't have CH.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Skyhawk5 on Jul 26th, 2011 at 2:40am
I sitll can't believe it's true. I have been applying Batch's advice for a few years now. I have the best O2 setup I can afford and it works wonders.

When I read about the D3, I thought, how can this work. Well after I had 3 wakeup calls to O2 in the month of May, me and my wife knew it was coming.

I started the program on May 29, 11, and have not been awakened to a CH since. For the last 6 yrs I have had Summer time cycles of 6+ mnths.

Not this Summer !!!!!!            , Don

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jul 26th, 2011 at 5:39am
Hi all

Just an update.  I started on the Anti inflammatory regimen around Jul 1st. I have had attacks all 2011 with some in-between PF weeks.  June being particularly evil.

The effect was significant after a couple of days.  I have not been completely PF, but the frequency is radically lower.  KIP scale mark too. 

I have passed the beer test several times. 

Yesterday I had an appointment with my neurologist and we talked about the D3 coctail.  She got very interested. I got a prescription for 5000 IU units. In Norway the strongest OTC units are 400 IU - meaning I have to swallow 25 tablets every day  :-/ No more of that now :-)

Bottom line: I'm quite convinced this regimen works for me.

I take
3000mg Fish Oil (70% Omega 3), 500mg Magnesium citrate, 500mg Calcium, 10.000 IU D3, 1500mg Taurin, 25mg Zinc

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jul 26th, 2011 at 8:57am
Wow Zeit, that's fantastic news. This cocktail is really starting to get people's attention!!! :o

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2011 at 9:47am
Rune, Don,

Awesome news!  I'm very happy for both of you... 

I know how you're feeling and what it's like to wake up from a pain free night's sleep wondering if you're really done with the beast...  You look over your shoulder with a grin on your face like a kid who just found a $20 dollar bill on the ground... 

After a few weeks... you'll begin to realize this regimen is really working and crack an even bigger smile.  From then on you'll just keep on trucking without looking back...  It's a wonderful feeling...

I thought hyperventilating with 100% oxygen was a game changer when I developed the initial procedure for this method of oxygen therapy in 2005 to abort my CH.  It gave me back a quality of life and sense of control I didn't think possible with cluster headaches...  In 2008 we conducted the informal pilot study where more CH'ers tried it with similar results so I knew it wasn't just a one-off lark...  it really works.

I know nothing lasts for ever...  but at this point,  I'm declaring Game Over with my cluster headaches thanks to the anti-inflammatory regimen... 

I've been PF since last October and I'm still on this regimen...  I intend to stay on it for the rest of my life...  A lot of other CH'ers are reporting similar results with this regimen so I'm not alone and this isn't just a one trick pony either...  It works!

I've been keeping a running tally of the results posted here at CH.com, sent to me by email and PM as well as reports from the good people and fellow CH'ers at ClusterBusters who have also given this regimen a try. 

The significant finding so far is the efficacy of this anti-inflammatory regimen is a function of time...  Some CH'ers reported a favorable response in two to three days after starting this regimen while others reported it's taken two to three weeks and longer to achieve the same favorable response.

Although CH'ers who took the complete regimen had the most success, vitamin D3 appears to be one of the key ingredients and it's clearly the long pole in the tent of this anti-inflammatory regimen.

In my exchange with Dr. Peter Lewis, MD an Integrative physician who specializes in the treatment of vitamin D3 deficient patients, he indicated that based on his experience treating vitamin D3 deficient patients, it can take up to three months at a dose of 10,000 I.U./day vitamin D3 to elevate a vitamin D3 deficient patient's 25(OH)D from 50 nmol/L  (deficient) up to 150 nmol/L (middle of normal range).

The fact that this regimen is working well for both episodic and chronic CH'ers is further proof of its efficacy.  I also expect the CH'ers who have not had an immediate response to this regimen will start experiencing a reduction in the frequency/severity of their CH if they continue taking it.

I hope to have an on-line survey up on the Internet in a few weeks for the CH'ers who've tried this regimen and will post the link when it's ready.  Capturing this data in a standardized format will help dig the fly crap out of the pepper...  We'll need the cleanest results possible in order to help generate the funding for a formal clinical study.

Take care,

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Lauren17 on Jul 29th, 2011 at 10:15am
Lucas has been pain free since his cycle in the fall- a few twinges here and there, but no new cycle materialized, and nothing that could really be considered a shadow even. His cycles bounce around, sometimes it's 6 months, sometimes it's 2 years between, so it will be a long time before we know for sure with this, but we'll keep at it. I'll keep updating periodically!

Thanks!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by julieknfla on Jul 31st, 2011 at 8:20pm
I have been checking in to see how others have fared with your regimen, Batch, and I will always credit my breaking of my last CH cycle with this regimen. Being overly cautious, I lowered my intake to 2,000 Iu of D3 a day a month after being PF, and am still taking the Calcium, magnesium and fish oil-and feel great!!  I am looking forward to your survey. Would be awesome to get a real trial where even more people could be helped.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 1st, 2011 at 8:47am
Hi Everyone!

I am 5 weeks into a "usual" 12-16 week cycle....Thank you Batch et all for all the info on more natural treatment.  Last cycle I read up on Batch's research on Hyperventilating (sp) on the O2 rather than just sucking at 15 liters.  I bought a higher regulator which came with the bigger bag to hold the precious O2.  I just got the part about STAYING on the O2 for at least 15 minutes rather than just getting the hit taken care of.  I think this has helped with the rebound hits all night long.  I only had one right as I was going to bed and one more 4 hours later....This sure beats one every hour and a half!!!  This cycle I have been reading up on the Vitamin D3 and Fish Oil....Although I do take both, I have started to ramp it up.
I will keep you posted as to my success in beating this beast earlier in cycle.  I sure do love all you guys....and appreciate the support.
Dallas/Fort Worth would be a great place to have another Cluster meeting.....I met a few of you at the last meeting in Dallas....C'Mon back down here...   ;)

Blessings!
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jenny G on Aug 4th, 2011 at 6:49pm
Day 3 of Batch's regime.

I had my first PF night last night.  :D
Not even any shadows today.

According to my last 6 cycles, this should be "hell week" for me with 5-6 headaches a day at a k8-10. I noticed an improvement almost immediately with duration of headache, "K" rating, and frequency of headaches.

I THANK YOU "Batch" for reading one of my posts on this forum and taking the time to send me a personal email (that was so very cool of you). I may have otherwise passed right over this valuable recipe.

I will report back in a few days and changes/ success.
PF days & nights to all of you! I hope to be another success story

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 4th, 2011 at 7:47pm
I THANK YOU "Batch" for reading one of my posts on this forum and taking the time to send me a personal email (that was so very cool of you). I may have otherwise passed right over this valuable recipe.

Yeah....he does that  alot. ;)

Great news Jenny, senidng hopes and vibes it continues for you.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 5th, 2011 at 4:01am
Hey Jennifer,

Thank you for the kind words...  I'm glad you though enough about the ant-inflammatory regimen to give it a try and so very happy you responded so well to it. 

It's success stories like yours that will clue more CH'ers into finding out first hand just how effective this regimen can be.  Thank you.

Based on the feedback I've received so far, I'm very confident you'll remain pain free.

Take care and please keep us posted. 

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Yan on Aug 5th, 2011 at 11:32am
This is like my 4th time trying this regimen since January, and I will try to stick to it more than 5-6 weeks..... :)

This time, I switched brand of vitamin D.......

Last night was the first time since March that the beast didn't woke me up after 1.5 - 2 hours of sleep..... I woke up to a start of an attack 5 hours after going to bed.....that felt so strange.... :)

I started Topamax about a week ago (added to Verapamil and Divalproex), so I do not know for sure the vitamin D is helping me or not....

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jenny G on Aug 5th, 2011 at 4:48pm
ANOTHER PF night! Woo hoo. No shadows today..nothing.
I feel amazing :)
xoxo

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 5th, 2011 at 9:08pm
Hey Jennifer,

Thank you for the update.  It's a wonderful feeling isn't it.

The important thing now is stay on this regimen.  It's not a cure.  That said, I think you'll find this regimen has other healthy benefits after a few more weeks that will convince you to stay on it. 

My wife started taking it when she saw what it was doing for me weeks after it stopped my CH.  She feels better, sleeps better, and has more energy.  She bounces around the house and yard like a kid again. 

When you look at all the other potential health benefits from taking this regimen, it's a no-brainer...  We're on it for life.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 8th, 2011 at 12:00am
Still on my 4000 IUs of Fish Oil, 15-20000 IUs of Vitamin D, Calcium Citrate and lemonade....Been on it about a 7-10 days ( I'll have to check my calendar).  Still getting about 3 hits per night....Still trying to stay on O2 longer (its hard to fight sleep when the pain leaves).  Yesterday was particularly hard as I was getting hit in the middle of the day at a family party about an hour from home.  I didn't bring my O2 but took a Teximet.  It worked but made me fool so weird and not so good the rest of the day.  Still waiting on my Sansert to arrive....sigh.  I have to fly wo Mississippi next weekend with my husband and not looking forward to it.  He is performing a wedding for some friends.  Fortunately the best man lives here and has volunteered to take my O2 with them as they are driving instead of flying.  Such a hassle to do anything or go anywhere.  I guess that is why I usually stay home during this season.

Sorry for the whining....It used to be much worse back in the first couple of years when I didn't have O2 and didn't know what these horrible things were....I've come a long way these 20 years worth of the beast and I have learned most of what I know from you wonderful people...Thank you!
Blessings y'all
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 8th, 2011 at 9:51am
Hey Karen,

Please believe me, I know what you're going through.  I went through a similar scenario July - September of last year with airline travel to Zurich, Hamburg, Reno, Seattle and Ketchikan, Alaska. You have the advantage of already starting the anti-inflammatory regimen so have a leg up on what I was going through.  I got nailed on nearly every flight...

What I'd suggest at this point is hang in there and don't let CH change your plans...  You'll get through this one way or another.  The first thing I'd do is have my blood tested for 25(OH)D levels.  This will let you know where you stand with respect to how much longer it's going to take for the anti-inflammatory regimen's vitamin D3 to achieve a therapeutic level of 25(OH)D.

The second thing I'd do is start on an anti-inflammatory and alkaline forming diet.  The following links will point you in the right directions.

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I'd also avoid food stuffs containing gluten and peanuts until you get your CH totally under control.  While you may not be having a noticeable allergic reaction to these food types with clear or apparent symptoms, it's still possible you're having a reaction and although low, it's high enough to affect the frequency and severity of your CH.

Finally, I've found that ordering oxygen cylinders to have them available at travel destinations is easy and comforting.  Between LifeGas - OxyTravel™ and Apria I've had oxygen cylinders waiting for me at all my travel destinations across Europe, Alaska and here in the lower 48.  The important thing and a MUST... is to have a copy of your Rx for oxygen therapy and that it states it is for your CH, so you can fax or scan to pdf and email to the provider. 

I also ask for the aluminum M60 or aluminum M-size cylinders.  At 23 lbs, the aluminum M60 is light enough to carry from room to room and they hold 1700 liters of oxygen so are good for 8 to 9 aborts. The aluminum M weighs in at 41 lbs so is still luggable, but with a capacity of 3450 liters, it's good for up to 20 aborts...

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Taking my oxygen regulator and mask through TSA security is usually event free.  I tell the TSA attendant at the security check point there's an oxygen regulator in my carry-on bag as I push it towards the the X-Ray machine. They may want to look at it so I keep the regulator and mask in ziploc bags on top if they want to open the carry-on bag.

That leaves the actual flights with the inevitable CH that hit.  Expect them to occur and plan accordingly.  You've got the fast acting oral triptans, I carried a nasal spray applicator for each leg of air travel. I also alerted the flight attendants while boarding that I'm a cluster headache sufferer and will need a couple glasses of ice and an ice bag when one hits.

I've also found that hyperventilating with air at forced vital capacity tidal volumes can help.  It won't stop the CH, but it can help hold the pain in check and keep it from becoming a head-banger.

With luck, your CH will start responding to the anti-inflammatory regimen making most of the actual travel preparations a secondary safety net.

Take care and please keep us posted,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Aug 8th, 2011 at 4:15pm
I've found flying to be a time when I've never had a CH or even shadows, so it's a time I look forward to. I've done 59 flights so far this year, with this week being only the second one this year I've not flown.

Does this make it count as a preventive for me?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 8th, 2011 at 4:29pm

Mike NZ wrote on Aug 8th, 2011 at 4:15pm:
I've found flying to be a time when I've never had a CH or even shadows, so it's a time I look forward to. I've done 59 flights so far this year, with this week being only the second one this year I've not flown.

Does this make it count as a preventive for me?


Damn....It'd sure make me a frequent flyer! ;D

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 10th, 2011 at 8:37am
Thanks again y'all for your tips and support.  The flight I need to be on will only be about 1 1/2 hours....not a biggie and daytime is "usually" ok for me right now anyway.  I have friends bringing the O2 tanks and I am still waiting on the Sansert to come in the mail....Again....I could kick myself for not trying to order it sooner.  I am saving my precious Trex for the weekend that we are out of town and then maybe the Dr will give a few more samples...

During one of my hits last night I was thinking about a medical shake mix we have at the office called InflameX....Supposed to help with inflamation....gonna try it as I'm on the ramped up Vit D and Fish Oil already....I DO know I have inflamation due to a Bioimpedence test that shows a lot of Extracellular water (inflamation) in my system.  Along with trying to stay on high alkaliene (sp) foods....and PRAYER....

Batch....I have access to my medical file at work and I will look at the last Vitamin D lab result....Pretty sure it was ok....but I have ramped up the amount anyway.

Blessings!
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyph on Aug 10th, 2011 at 4:36pm
Well, it may be premature to present my info, but here it is.

I'm a 38 year old male and a few  weeks ago I caught a sinus infection accompanied by 4 days with a fever.

After fighting it off and being symptom free for about 3 days, I woke up 9 days ago at 3:30 AM with a headache that I would discover had all of the hallmarks of a cluster attack.  I knew nothing about it at the time, but I'd be driven to visit my doctor after 6 straight days (this past Sunday) of H/A at midday always focused on the same side and behind my eye.

Still unaware of CH, I was relieved when the doctor prescribed me an antibiotic, tylenol with codeine and a muscle relaxer as he was under the impression that the H/A was a complication due to the sinus infection.

Well, Tuesday and 2.5 days into my antibiotic with the painkiller and I'm having the worst episodes yet.  Monday I suffered two debilitating hits in quick succession that took me near 6 hours to recover from.  And yesterday, Tuesday, I tried to go to work and was hit there earlier than usual, 9AM instead of around noon.

In light of this lack of success (worsening, in fact) with the prescriptions, I looked Monday online to see if my symptoms were more indicative with migraines.  While I've not been formally diagnosed, with some dismay I discovered that the symptoms coincide with CH.  And, of course, that's what led me to this forum.

Well, desperate to try anything that I could on short notice as the earliest neuro appt I could get was for next Friday, I looked into this thread and others on abortives.  So starting yesterday, I added a D3 supplement.  I only had about 1500IU I could take last night and this morning, but have picked up the 5000IU tabs today.  I took one with calcium at lunch and will start a regular 10,000IU with calcium for short term efforts.

I've felt the typical tugging at my eye (shadows as I've learned) as a relative constant today.  And on a couple of occasions that it's threatened to spike I have managed to fend off the attack by downing black coffee (probably 5 cups today) but I'm encouraged by the ability to actually have a pain free day (knocks wood) thus far as I'm more than 24 hours removed from my last full-blown attack.  My first in 9 days  :)

Thanks for the info here and I'll probably find myself lurking these forums more often.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by rosie89 on Aug 11th, 2011 at 3:11am
Hi,

My name is Rosie and me and "THE BEAST" are brand new friends. My fiance just started getting the CH's this month- he's 29. We were scared poopless for a couple weeks because we didn't know what they were, then on his first KIP-9/KIP-10 I took him to the ER. They referred him to the neurologist a week later (with only 15 percocet to hold him over until he was seen- it was TERRIBLE) and then he was diagnosed.
He's now on the prednisone taper and taking indomethacin 3 times a day starting today as preventatives, and percocet as needed. Doc didn't want to prescribe us O2 because it's "inconvenient", but after lurking this site for a couple days, the neuro may be getting a bossy fiance call from me soon to get that script in.  >:( ADDITIONALLY, he got the imitrex injection kit ($190!!!!!! for TWO injections!!! Sorry, I'm new to this and feel the need to whine to people who know what I'm talking about. Whining over with now, promise.) and had his first shot today at a KIP 8. It helped for a little bit.

SO, onto the topic.

I will be starting him on Batch's regimen promptly in the morning. He's actually ASLEEP right now and has been for a couple hours (knock on wood). I'm gonna start him with 10,000 IU VD3, 3600mg fish oil and the Calcium citrate with some lemonade. I will update in a couple days and see how it goes.

This is all very scary because since this is his first experience with CH's we have no idea when they're due to "let up", if he's chronic/episodic, what to expect at all. I'd rather try to scare the beast away with a bunch of vitamins than have to find out the hard way all the excruciating details. I feel so helpless watching him in this much pain.

Sorry for the novel. Needed to vent.

PS- please let me know if I am inadvertantly poisoning him due to some obscure drug reaction. It'd be nice to know, as I'd like him to live.  ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 11th, 2011 at 6:35pm
Karen, Copy.

Cyph, Thanks for the feedback...  Hang in there and please keep us posted.

Rosie, Great post!  Physicians who refuse to prescribe oxygen then give a lame a$$ excuse that it's too "inconvenient" or not effective need some remedial CME...  Continuing Medical Education.

If you buy your own high flow rate regulator, I use a 0 to 60 liter/minute unit from Flotec, and have your own non-rebreathing mask like the O2PTIMASK™ kit with 3-liter reservoir bag for $37.50 here at the CH.com Store at the left, the cost/abort with a $30 M-size oxygen cylinder is $1.00 tp $1.50 before insurance.  That beats the heck out of $90/injection before insurance or splitting the dose in thirds.

Hang in there and check your PM...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jenny G on Aug 13th, 2011 at 1:31pm
Update here, I am about 1 week into the D3 vitamin therapy. My D levels did not test low according to my doctor, I am at 63 (even though Batch's research says 100 is optimal). I am taking the vitamins therapy anyway.

While the attacks have not stopped completely I can go about 48 hours without anything, not even a shadow. The CH that I do get are never more than a kip 2-3 and are babies compared to where I would normally be at during this point in my cycle.

I am at just about 3 weeks in, my cycles have typically lasted 3-4 weeks. I am hoping they are almost gone as I seem to be in the "tapering down" part of the cycle.

This cycle (knock on wood) has been the easiest to deal with in 20 years. I definitely believed without Batch's help I would have had an awful last week.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 13th, 2011 at 3:44pm
Fantastic news Jenny. I'd keep with Batch's routine even if the beast is done with you this go round. It would be interesting to see if you can skip a cycle with it. Hoping he leaves you in peace for a while.

JOe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:00pm
Many thanks to Batch for being the guinea pig and creator of this natural regimen that appears to be very helpful to many who've tried it. 

I've just finished reading all 13 pages of this thread and am eager to try it beginning next Friday AKA Payday. ;)

My only concern is that a cycle may begin before a month or so where my blood levels would become therapeutic, resulting in me having to start a Pred taper with Verapamil.

One other concern is weight loss I believe I read somewhere in this 13 pages.  I've just lost 60 lbs just in the last 5 years and am too thin due to pain pills for spine injury.  Certainly do not need to lose more weight!  What exactly from this regimen caused weight loss?  I might want to avoid that?!

Thanks again Batch!

PS  We should sticky this thread.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:35am
LV,

Thanks for the kind words...  and don't worry about the weight loss unless the extra energy from the vitamin D3 results in your running a half marathon a day or training for Iron-Man competition. 

Moreover, why wait until payday?  Smith's Market at the corner of West Tropicana and S. Jones has some small bottles of 5000 I.U. vitamin D3, Omega 3 Fish Oil, and Citracal Plus that will work just fine…  If you venture further West to Costco at 801 South Pavilion Dr, you can pick up a two-month's supply of all three ingredients for less than $20.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:51am
Batch you are so cool  8-)

When you next visit family look me up and we'll definitely enjoy great conversation and laughs over a few cold brews.

I didn't realize all 3 were so inexpensive.  Off to Costco tomorrow, I live right around the corner.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Aug 15th, 2011 at 3:31pm
Hi Batch

Ian here, I was on here about two months ago.  Just reporting in that I am having my first completely pain free summer for 15 years.  Still taking the regimen, if I forget or try backing off I get some really small almost unnoticeable but tell tale shadows.  Being able to function and enjoy a summer, we are even thinking about going on holiday next year.  Have been trying to see a neuro to pass on the info but they are to busy unfortunately, so have emailed them.

Thanks again mate, you have changed my life.

Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dixie Angel on Aug 15th, 2011 at 9:41pm
Just picked up my Vitamin D3, Omega 3 Fish Oil caps, and calcium citrate tablets tonight at the store. Will be starting the regimen in the morning. Wish me luck. I really don't want to start on the Verapamil and the Prednisone if I can stop these clusters a more natural way... :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Aug 16th, 2011 at 6:48pm
Hi
Did some search & read adn came across this short Danish blog. "Cluster Headache Cure": START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE. 

It seems to provide some scientific explanation on why D3 has this marvelous effect.  Apparently there is a correlation between high production of Nitric Oxide (NO) and cluster.  Among other things, vitamin D3 inhibits the NO production.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by rosie89 on Aug 16th, 2011 at 7:42pm
Hi All!!

Update to the fiance's situation...

He has had shadows since he started the regimen, every day. They are definitely better though, only go up to a pain level of 2 or 3, VERY occasionally a 4 comes around. I have not seen the beast at all since he started the regimen, though he started it on the same day as the Prednisone taper. He still has about a week left of the Prednisone, so we'll see what happens once he is off of it. I'm trying not to get excited yet until we know if it's the vitamins or the Prednisone that is making the difference. I will definitely keep you updated though!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 17th, 2011 at 3:35pm
Wow...That article on the role N.O. plays in clusters in very interesting...

I have been on D3, Fish Oil, Calcium Citrate and Magnesium for about 2 weeks now....I was drinking the Lemonade and stopped it last weekend when I traveled to Mississippi....I realized it and started back on the lemonade and trying to get more alkalized....Last night I had a small hit as I was going to bed and only one more in the middle of the night....Not bad for someone who often got 3-5 hits per night....I am even considering NOT taking the Sansert when it arrives as I want to keep a clean body as drug free as possible if I can....Thank you Batch et all for going for the prize....Pain free is the prize and control of our body.

Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 17th, 2011 at 8:36pm
I spoke with my pharmacist today about this natural regimen and she completely agreed it would be helpful.  She even understood the importance of the lemonade.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dixie Angel on Aug 18th, 2011 at 11:27am
I am having only shadows now. I had gone back on the Fish Oil I was taking for something else before I picked up the Vitamin D3 and calcium citrate with the added D3, magnesium, and zinc. It made my clusters a lot shorter in duration. Now that I have the D3 and the calcium citrate, I am experiencing only shadows. The past two nights I have not been awakened with the piercing pain of clusters. I had had at least three clusters a night (sometimes as many as nine) since July 8. I am so excited! [smiley=clap2.gif]

Could you remind me once more the importance of the lemonade drinks? I had forgotten about that part when I started this regimen two days ago.  [smiley=embarassed.gif]

Batch, thank you so much for sharing your remedy on getting a handle on the clusters.  [smiley=hug.gif] I cannot tell you how much it means to be able to anticipate sleeping now when I dreaded the nighttime hours before the regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Aug 18th, 2011 at 11:45am

Quote:
Could you remind me once more the importance of the lemonade drinks? I had forgotten about that part when I started this regimen two days ago. 

Drinking something relatively high in acid content will naturally help to lower arterial pH levels.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dixie Angel on Aug 18th, 2011 at 12:09pm
Thank you, Brew. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 19th, 2011 at 5:26pm
Hey Ian,

Thanks for the update.  I think you'll find this regimen has other benefits that will keep you on it for life.

Karen,

Good on you for sticking with this regimen…  It looks like it's starting to work.  If your CH respond like mine and many others have, you should be completely pain free in a few more days.

Dixie Gal,

Thanks for the feedback.  That’s great news.  Stick with this regimen even after your CH subsides completely.  Unlike other CH Rx drugs, this regimen is very healthy for you and it has no adverse side effects.  And at less than 20 cents a day...  it's also very affordable.

Rosie,

I'll add your fiancé's results to the tally when he completes the prednisone taper…  no telling at this point which method is working or working best.

LasVegas,

Thanks for the feedback from your pharmacist.  It's always good to hear endorsements from a medical professional on matters like this.  The comment on lemonade in particular.

Zeitgeist,

I found the article on vitamin D3 and nitric oxide last December when I was looking through studies on possible mechanisms in play with the anti-inflammatory and buffering regimen. 

I also found two more studies that point to the capacity of vitamin D3 to suppress or down regulate calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP), both of which are elevated during a cluster headache.

Doctors Peter Goadsby, MD and Lars Edvinsson, MD conducted a study that measured blood levels of CGRP and VIP in the external jugular vein and found both were elevated during a cluster headache attack.

Attacks were treated with either oxygen inhalation, sumatriptan or an opiate. Thirteen patients were studied of whom 10 were male and three female. All had well-established typical attacks of cluster headache when blood was sampled.

The results they reported in 1994 from this study should be of interest to all CH'ers and the physicians treating them.

" Treatment with both oxygen and subcutaneous sumatriptan reduced the CGRP level to normal, while opiate administration did not alter the peptide levels.

These data demonstrate for the first time in vivo human evidence for activation of the trigeminovascular system and the cranial parasympathetic nervous system in an acute attack of cluster headache. Furthermore, it is shown that both oxygen and sumatriptan abort the attacks and terminate activity in the trigeminovascular system."

I'm sure there are other mechanisms in play with this regimen but the neurochemistry gets real hairy so I've decided to leave that aspect of this regimen to the real experts and concentrate on documenting it's efficacy.

To date based on the available data, the raw efficacy of this regimen is 75% with the margin of  uncertainty at ± 15% due to the 11 CH'ers who reported starting the regimen and staying on it, but who have not reported a favorable response.  It also appears to work equally well for both episodic and chronic CH'ers.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on Aug 19th, 2011 at 6:15pm
Batch

  Wanted to report on this thread what I just posted on a thread by newbie Glenna.

  Have had no attacks last two days or nights.  Small shadow this morning knocked out with 02 in a couple of minutes.

  I jacked up the regimen three days ago.  Now taking 10K D3 morning & evening . . . 1200 mg fish oil (morning) . . . and Citracal Plus morning & evening.  Have been out in the heat/humidity both days without attacks (which has been impossible last several weeks).

  My plan is to continue on the higher dosages and if continued success possibly taper down . . . but right now ecstatic over some PF time.

  THANK YOU!

    Be Safe,   PFDANs

      Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 19th, 2011 at 11:05pm
Batch et all,
Just a note....I have had no hits in the last 48 hours....2 pain free nights! meaning no hits Wed night ....shadowed all day thursday but no more hits Thursday night and all day today (Friday) feeling great!
I am 6 weeks into a "usual" 12 to 16 week cycle and it appears to be broken....2 days and counting....Drinking my lemonaide right now ..... ;)   
Blessings y'all!
karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 20th, 2011 at 12:01am
Hey Richard,

Great news!  It's a wonderful feeling isn't it?  Stick with it and you'll find there are other benefits from taking this regimen.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 21st, 2011 at 6:51pm
Well....2 nights without attacks and then 2 nights after with 2....Still better than 5 per night....Will continue the regamine and see what happens.

Blessings,
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Aug 22nd, 2011 at 12:32am
This seems to be working for me. A couple of days ago I had my first CH in 153 days (only a K6), after previously having CHs every few days (verapamil preventive) for 11 months. I am still taking the verapamil, but also vitamin D3, magnesium, calcium and omega 3.

Whilst it is impossible for me to tell if it was a cycle finishing, I've had shadows fairly often (typically from daily to every 2-3 days), so I suspect that it could be the combination of medication and supplements that is working.

To me, the cumulative evidence being reported is indicative of a successful approach.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Aug 22nd, 2011 at 4:46am
Batch - thanks for the insights into the science.  It's important for me to be able to explain why the regimen works.  Still not quite able, but  :)

In real numbers, how many people have tried the regimen?


I'm still fine after 48 days.  After the regimen took effect after 2-3 days, I've only had one night hit (KIP 6-7), and that was when going to sleep after being awake 35hr.  I have had some shadows and KIP 1-2. I have been 100% with regard to the regimen. I do believe some of the shadows/minor attacks are due to empty stomach.  So not 100% PF, but very close.

I've added 45 mcg vit. K2 to the "recipe" - as it is believed to help direct all the calcium to the skeleton instead of calcifying veins etc. I also ponder adding Boron as it  keep showing up as vit D3 co-factor.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 22nd, 2011 at 8:25am
so sad...4 hits last night....getting frustrated but I know it will end in time anyway....staying on the regimin....Its all about being as healthy as I can be no matter what!
Blessings,
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Aug 22nd, 2011 at 3:09pm
I'm sorry to hear that, Karen.

I read somewhere that magnesium is critical for D3 to work.  But many tablets contains magnesium oxide. Magnesium oxide is said to be particularly difficult to absorb.  Only 4-5% is absorbed, I read somewhere.

We have almost the same story with Calcium.  Some forms are hard to absorb.  The Calcium Citrate is said to be easy to absorb.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Aug 22nd, 2011 at 7:04pm

Zeitgeist wrote on Aug 22nd, 2011 at 3:09pm:
I'm sorry to hear that, Karen.

I read somewhere that magnesium is critical for D3 to work.  But many tablets contains magnesium oxide. Magnesium oxide is said to be particularly difficult to absorb.  Only 4-5% is absorbed, I read somewhere.

We have almost the same story with Calcium.  Some forms are hard to absorb.  The Calcium Citrate is said to be easy to absorb.

Your right ZG on both counts; if possible try to get hold of the citrated products for any of the vitamins taken, I found this out many years ago when I first went on the Mag/Cal/D3 trail.
And remember if you are taking Mag you also need to take Cal or you will end up with muscle & joint soreness.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 22nd, 2011 at 8:57pm
Hey Karen,

What a bummer...  I know you're working hard to make this regimen work.  Barry and Zeitgheist are correct, some salts of calcium and magnesium have less bioavailability.  If you're taking two of the Krikland brand of calcium citrate a day, both the calcium and magnesium should be readily absorbed.  You'll get the proper amount of zinc as well.

You've got a couple options.  Increase the number of calcium citrate tablets from two to four and see what happens.

The other option is to find some magnesium gluconate or magnesium citrate tablets.  Most of us get plenty of magnesium if we eat green veggies, leafy salads, peas and beans...  Having said that, a little more magnesium shouldn't cause any problems...

Bumping the total intake of supplemental magnesium up to 300 mg/day meets the RDA for magnesium yet is still below Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for supplemental magnesium.  This should help the vitamin D3 to be even more effective.

Taking the calcium citrate and magnesium tablets a half hour prior to the evening meal with a glass of lemonade should help increase the bioavailability.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 23rd, 2011 at 10:38pm
I don't like lemonade.

Will orange juice, tangerine juice, and/or grapefruit juice work?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Aug 23rd, 2011 at 10:57pm
It is my understanding that limeade is an acceptable substitute.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 24th, 2011 at 12:27am
Margarita mix works best.  Jose Cuervo original lime margarita mix is great... but at 500 calories per 8 oz. you'll need to run a couple half marathons a week to keep from turning into a blimp...

I found that Baja Bob's sugar free margarita mix packets at less than $5/half gallon work best with no calories for sugar...  of course I do prefer to add the fermented and distilled agave to the mix...  :o :D ::).

That way when you do get hit, you've got a heck of a good excuse...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 24th, 2011 at 12:37am

LasVegas wrote on Aug 23rd, 2011 at 10:38pm:
I don't like lemonade.

Will orange juice, tangerine juice, and/or grapefruit juice work?


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by aprildawn on Aug 24th, 2011 at 3:34pm
Hi all, just got done with a stubborn cycle. Usually comes once a year. I have thought about trying the D3 regimen & was wondering if this is continued after a cycle is done. I am on preventatives all of the time & would like to get off them if possible. Thanks for any information. Have a PF day.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dixie Angel on Aug 24th, 2011 at 4:10pm
I have had one cluster since starting this regimen. I take no other medicines for CH and have to say that I am thrilled to be able to say that.  :)

I, too, am wondering if orange juice, tangerine juice, and/or grapefruit juice will work instead of the lime/lemon ades. I do know that if you are taking blood pressure pills, though, that it is not a good idea to drink grapefruit juice with some.  ;) Something about it makes the bp pills build up in your system. ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Melvin on Aug 24th, 2011 at 5:05pm
I was recently given a diagnosis of cluster headaches after being mis-diagnosed with sinus infections three times in the last year, and having a headache for roughly two weeks.  The pain was unbearable, went to the ER and they prescribed hydrocodone which only made things worse.  Went to the neurologist and was given what my wife called a sobriety test and a prescription to something that just made me sick.  I ran across this thread, and realized that I already take a multi and fish oil daily.  I also realized that since I sit at a desk most of the day my body gets no vitamin D so off I went.  I bought a bottle of 5000iu vitamin and some calcium/mag/zinc pills.  Started taking them on Friday night, by Sunday my headaches were little if any and I haven't had one since (today is Wednesday).  Thank you so much!  I told my sister yesterday that I've gotten my first two full nights of sleep in about a month.  Oh I've also been making it a point to drink lemon or lime in my water in addition to lots of lemonade.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 24th, 2011 at 9:32pm

Dixie Angel wrote on Aug 24th, 2011 at 4:10pm:
I, too, am wondering if orange juice, tangerine juice, and/or grapefruit juice will work instead of the lime/lemon ades. I do know that if you are taking blood pressure pills, though, that it is not a good idea to drink grapefruit juice with some.  ;) Something about it makes the bp pills build up in your system. ;)


Glad I am not alone on the distaste ofr lemon/lime. 

I've been cautioned of not drinking grapefruit juice w/ meds such as Verapamil that impact blood pressure. 

Just thought OJ or tangerine juice are both acidic and would do the job equally as lemonade/lime, etc. 

Anybody experienced (successful or not) w/ OJ or tangerine juice w/ this regimen?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 25th, 2011 at 4:23am
LV, All,

Regarding dislike of lemon and lime juice...  Any juice containing citric acid will work just fine.  Obviously, the higher the citric acid content the better... The following link may provide alternatives to lemonade and limeade:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I've found that Pomegranate juice makes for a good alternative source of citric acid.  It's also frequently labeled as a healthy heart juice to boot...

Melvin, Great news! Thank you for the feedback.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dixie Angel on Aug 26th, 2011 at 7:08am
LV, it is not that I dislike lemon-lime drinks, it is that I don't want to have to give up my weekly margarita night because of developing a dislike from having to drink it. I was to the point that I thought I wasn't ever going to be able to drink another cup of coffee after drinking it by the pot until I found this message board. ;D

I have been cluster-free since last Friday. :) Batch, thank you so much for this topic. [smiley=hug.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 26th, 2011 at 8:24am
Wednesday evening got hit when the barametric pressure changed due to some unexpected rain (we are in drought season).  I was at a restaurant to celebrate my daughter's 27th birthday.  No O2 available so I got into my secret, 'though dwindling stash of Treximet and took one.  I had to go out in the parking lot and pace and push my head against a pole until it started to subside.  I don't ever want to be without O2....so now that I am in the last 3rd (hopefully) of my cycle (4 to 8 weeks left), I am taking my O2 to work and everywhere I go now.  No more hits that night (but felt all swollen from the trex)....but the beast made up for it last night with 5 hits.....sigh.  Still drinking lemon water all day and night, and all my supplements.  I will do it just because I know it's good for me...Still hoping for it to kill the clusters.
Tired,
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Aug 27th, 2011 at 12:30am

godsjoy777 wrote on Aug 26th, 2011 at 8:24am:
Wednesday evening got hit when the barametric pressure changed due to some unexpected rain (we are in drought season).  I was at a restaurant to celebrate my daughter's 27th birthday.  No O2 available so I got into my secret, 'though dwindling stash of Treximet and took one.  I had to go out in the parking lot and pace and push my head against a pole until it started to subside.  I don't ever want to be without O2....so now that I am in the last 3rd (hopefully) of my cycle (4 to 8 weeks left), I am taking my O2 to work and everywhere I go now.  No more hits that night (but felt all swollen from the trex)....but the beast made up for it last night with 5 hits.....sigh.  Still drinking lemon water all day and night, and all my supplements.  I will do it just because I know it's good for me...Still hoping for it to kill the clusters.
Tired,
Karen

HI Karen
Hang in there i'm sure it will start working in due time, i went for aboit 6 months before I got a decent break, but when that break come it was great & the breaks have been getting longer each time.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Aug 28th, 2011 at 9:38am
Well, The Sansert finally arrived and though I started it on Friday night....I had 3 hits right before starting it....Slept like a baby all night and again last night....Cluster free....Still taking th Vit D & Fish Oil etc...just because it is good for me.  I am hoping I don't have to ramp up the Sansert and just stay at 2 mgs daily until I am pretty sure the season is over...Praying....Sleep felt reeeeeally good!
Blessings to all,
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jman1980 on Aug 29th, 2011 at 5:41pm
i have been wanting to post here for the past week, but my internet was down but its back up now. i started this regimen last week and it is a godsend. Since i have started this regimen, i have only had one full attack, and several that started but never got intense. i am truly amazed that something this simple and easy to get has worked when nothing i got from my doctor did. i wish this would work for everyone, and i feel it deep in my heart for those it doesn't work for. for those it doesn't work for, i truly hope that you all find something that does sometime soon, and i will keep you all in my heart and prayers.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 29th, 2011 at 7:02pm
Hey JMan,

Thanks for the feedback...  I'm glad to hear the anti-inflammatory regimen is working well for you...  As you continue to take it you'll find like me and many others, there are additional wonderful benefits that will keep you taking it for the rest of your life...  It's that healthy for us!

As far as we can tell at this point with over 75 CH'ers reporting, it is not a matter of "IF" it will work, but more a matter of "WHEN." 

It appears there are some CH'ers with very low 25 hydroxyvitamin D3 a.k.a. 25(OH)D levels (the serum metabolite of vitamin D3), and that it can take as long as three months to elevate this metabolite up to the middle of the normal range 100-200 nmol/l (40-80 ng/mL) to achieve a therapeutic response to their CH.  If in doubt, see your PCP to have your blood tested for 25(OH)D levels.  Anything less than 100 nmol/L is deficient and this appears to make the frequency and severity of CH much higher.

Most CH'ers are experiencing a favorable response to this regimen in the first two weeks after starting it and nearly all have eventually gone pain free.  That includes the chronic types...

Others have reported it took upwards of a month to achieve a significant level of relief from their CH.

The bottom line is don't get impatient and quit this regimen if you don't have an immediate response after starting it...  Good things are well worth the wait...

Thanks again for the feed-back.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:11pm
Bought delicious tangerine juice, not from concentrate, at Trader Joes this afternoon.  Yummy for this regimen. :D

Here's a question...should these 3 vitamins be taken w/ food or does it not matter?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 29th, 2011 at 11:41pm
LV,

It doesn't really matter when you take the vitamin D3 and Omega 3 Fish Oil...  What makes the most sense is to take the calcium citrate and juice prior to the evening meal.  You'll get the best buffering action that way on the hydrochloric acid the stomach makes to digest food.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 30th, 2011 at 1:00am
OK, will do, thanks Batch :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Aug 31st, 2011 at 10:19am
Looks like I'm headed to the vitamin store after work!  I'll report any success/failure.  I should stay away from calcium though since I'm prone to getting kidney stones, will that screw up my chances?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Aug 31st, 2011 at 11:48am
I had my blood tested after 55 days on this regimen. I got the results today, a week later. D(25-OH) is now at 225,2 nmol/L.  Which is good! Unfortunately pre-regimen levels are unknown, but I suspect they were very low.  I consider reducing D3 intake to maintenance level, 5.000 IU.

As for the nightly encounters with my old nemesis Mr. Cluster, the Great Terminator of Appointments: Almost completely gone.  Generally, after 62 days under regimen, and after the 2-3 initial days before full effect:

  • 4 moderate hits during sleep/night. But - all those coincides with me having burnt midnight oil.
  • A few low KIP scale hits during day
  • Some shadows of no consequence.
  • No Imitrex injections(!) No treatment except for some Red Bulls.
  • Countless hours of wonderful sleep


I've been in 'cycle' more or less non-stop since July 2010 after 20 years of being straight episodic. The regimen have had a dramatic and practically instant effect. The timing couldn't have been better - just as I was about to conclude that I could not possibly continue working as an IT professional. All of a sudden "The Future's So Bright (I Gotta Wear Shades)"  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE  (I know this is scientifically to early to call, but one day this song might be the anthem for clusterheads of the world  :) )


Thank you Batch, and all the other test pilots. I really owe you one for bringing this game-changer to town!

br/Rune






Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 1st, 2011 at 8:54am
This must be a coincidence, there's no way this could have worked the first day...yesterday I took 2x5000iu D3 gelcaps, and 2x1000mg fish oil (omega 3) gelcaps, along with 3x200 mg ibuprofen and 2x400mg turmeric capsules last night.  I also took one of my wife's Clonazepam (she gets panic attacks) I think it was 10mg, to help me sleep.  It was the first time I slept the whole night in 4 days!

Now that I take more pills than my grandmother, I can probably skip dinner ;)

I'll keep up the regimen (minus the Clonazepam unless needed) and report back any progress.

Thanks!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 1st, 2011 at 3:20pm
Rune,

Awesome post!  It carries far more impact on readers who have yet to give the anti-inflammatory regimen a try to prevent their cluster headaches than anything I can say...

You've set the bar for the rest of us with your persistence, your own research on vitamin D3 dosing and testing for the vitamin D3 metabolite therapeutic and maintenance levels.   Well Done!

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 2nd, 2011 at 9:30am
Day two: 2x5000iu D3, 2x1000mg fish oil, 2xB12 lozenges (for carpel and ulnar tunnel syndrome, forgot to mention these in my post yesterday).

No attacks at all, just a tiny little shadow of a shadow.  I did wake up at the usual times but not because of the pain.  And I was able to fall right back to sleep again.

I confess, I only read the first and last couple pages of this thread...WHY does this work?  Is it the vitamin deficiency causing the headaches?

Thanks a ton for this information...maybe I can cancel my appt with the neuro ;)

~Jake

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Sep 2nd, 2011 at 11:49am
Jake, good news!  But do not forget calcium and magnesium.  Both are very important co-factors for vitamin D3. Intake of 10.000 IU D3 without calcium might be dangerous.  The general effect of D3 is sharply reduced without magnesium.  500mg of both is advisable.  15-25mg of Zinc too. Batch covers this in several posts in this thread.

See also START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE (VitaminDCouncil.org) and START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE (Vitamin D Wiki).

Batch - Thanks!  You have been quite convincing yourself, rest asured!

Now we need to spread the word :-)  I'll continue experimenting.  For instance there seems to be a debate on what form of magnesium is most effective.  Also having 250mg  in the morning and evening is better than a single dosis of 500mg.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 2nd, 2011 at 12:05pm
I'm a little scared of the calcium because I get kidney stones (though I'd rather pass 100 of those before getting another cluster).  I'll give it a go though, thanks for the tips.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Sep 3rd, 2011 at 11:15am
Hi

When taking vitamin-D3 there is no need for taking calcium because the calcium from the food is absorbed more easy. I have been cluster free for allmost 3 years, and take 5000 IU vitamin-D3, 1000 mg Omega3, 500 Mg Magnesium, Zink and 3 mg Boron. No need for calcium here.  ;)

nhs

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 3rd, 2011 at 5:01pm
Day 3 was not so good.  I continued with the 2x d3 @ 5000iu. 2x 1000mg fish oil.  I added 1x 500mg calcium 1x 500mg magnesium and 1x 50mg zinc.  I also continued with the b12 lozenge. 

I awoke with pretty intense shadows which evolved into about a kip6-7 cluster.  It tapered down to about a 4 and stayed there for several hours.

I'm committed to it now though, I'll see how today goes.  Maybe for this evenings dose I'll skip the calcium.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 4th, 2011 at 3:23am
Posted in a thread in the general forum but it's probably more suitable for this thread.

I've been splitting up my D3 dosage between morning and afternoon.  Would it be better if I took the whole 10,000 IU in one dose in the morning?

This is my current regimen:

Morning: 5,000 IU D3, 1000 mg Fish Oil, 300 mg Calcium Citrate (w/ 150 mg Mg, 7.5 mg Zn)

Afternoon: 5,000 IU D3, 1000 mg Fish Oil, 300 mg Calcium Citrate (w/ 150 mg Mg, 7.5 mg Zn)

Evening: 1000 mg Fish Oil

Does this look about right or am I missing something?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Sep 4th, 2011 at 10:16am
slacker032 - This is my impression

D3: Important to take with food (some fat), but as D3 is stored in the body, it is not important when.

Mg: Best to split as Mg is consumed after 6-8 hrs
Zn: I don't know.
Ca: Often recommended to take in the evening
Omega 3: I don't know.

As for whether Ca is necessary or not: As far as I understand it depends on what food one eats, amount of milk etc.

Apparently we need to get more info. on this.  Googling is not necessarily helpful as much D3 information is very bone-/rickets-fixated and based on "old D3 truths". 

However, vitamin K2 is important as it helps directing Ca to the bones/teeth and away from the blood vessels. VitaminDCouncil and others also mention Boron and small amounts of Vitamin A as D3 co-factors.

I have begun splitting, but the first 60 days I consumed the entire cocktail for breakfast with very good effect.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 4th, 2011 at 3:52pm
Thanks Zeitgeist.  Great info!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by coach_bill on Sep 4th, 2011 at 11:31pm
Thanks Batch,

It's clear that i'm a Seed user and Shroom user (when was available). Last march was the last dose of any kind. I use mag supplement pills along with cal,d3 1000iu. Ive been reading this post and was wondering if ant other clusterbusters have tried this with success.

I'm not far from the recipe with the mag,cal,d3 i take and would be easy to start.

Thanks, Coach Bill

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 5th, 2011 at 2:15am
Coach Bill,

Seven out of ten Busters reported a favorable response.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Pinkfloyd on Sep 6th, 2011 at 1:05am
Actually, only three "busters" completed a short survey and one out of three reported positive results.


Bob

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 6th, 2011 at 1:15am

Pinkfloyd wrote on Sep 6th, 2011 at 1:05am:
Actually, only three "busters" completed a short survey and one out of three reported positive results.

Bob


I'm trying this regimen (along with Co-Q10 and B2) in conjunction with Busting for a particularly nasty cycle.  I'll let you guys know how it goes.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by matt25holland on Sep 6th, 2011 at 2:11am
going off to have my blood drawn in half an hour to check my vitamine D levels, will get the results back in a week, will keep you guys posted!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 6th, 2011 at 5:04pm
Bob, 

I read the three responses to your survey…  their results are included in the following tally.

The seven out of ten figure came from the thread titled: "Dramatic vit D3 megadose success stories at ch.com" at the following link: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I counted the number of CH'ers who posted they were going to try this regimen and the number CH'ers who posted a response to it.  I didn't count the CH'ers who posted a response I had already counted here at CH.com.

11 posted they would start the regimen
7 posted they had a favorable response
1 posted it made his CH worse but only took it for 1 week commenting may have gone into high cycle
2 didn't post any results

I just completed another search of your site using "D3" and "Work" or "worked" as search terms for the year and came up with another 11 CH'ers of whom seven had a favorable response, one no-change, and two didn't post any results.

That brings the present rough running totals at your site to:

21 posted they would start it
14 posted they had a favorable response
1 posted it made his CH worse but only took it for 1 week commenting he may have gone into high cycle
1 posted a negative response after 1 week
1 posted a favorable response then a negative response but was still trying
4 didn't post any results

It's not clear how many were busting at the time or if the episodic types were nearing end of cycle.

It also appears many of the CH'ers who tried this regimen were expecting a rapid response...  From the medical literature I've read, it can take as long as 3 months to elevate 25(OH)D levels from < 50 nmol/L up to 150 nmol/L, the center of the optimum range of 100-200 nmol/L (40-80 ng/mL) at a daily dose of 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3.

Hope you have a wonderful Conference in Chicago

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 7th, 2011 at 12:12pm
I have some catching up to do...Same regimen (forgot to mention that I've been splitting it between morning and evening).  Day 4 was pretty good, just some minor shadows, day 5 was great all day until I had some dessert my Uncle made.  Turns out the strawberries were soaked in some sort of liquor...DOH!  However the attack did not last long at all. 

Since then, nothing but some minor shadows every now and then.  I have added the Clonzepam back in (1/2 of a 1mg tablet 2 hours before bed).  I doesn't seem to hurt anything and it allows me to sleep all night long.  If I take it any later than I run the risk of being late to work ;).  Last night I got home late from a meeting and missed my opportunity so I woke up at the usual times for an attack but completely pain free.

I can't wait to see my neuro next week, perhaps he'll order some blood work to determine D3 levels...

~Jake

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by matt25holland on Sep 8th, 2011 at 7:34am
hiya jake, have you done any blood work done before you started this regimen?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 9th, 2011 at 2:51pm
No, but I think I'll request it at my appt. next week.  Aside from vitamin D3 I'll ask for vitamin B levels.  I understand that your body can only store 4-5 years of B12...I had my Gall Bladder removed about 4 years ago.  Supposedly that could cause some absorption issues.  I'm wondering if there is a more comprehensive test for all vitamins that could be done...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 10th, 2011 at 12:18pm
Jhammer,

When you ask for the blood test for 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, also called 25(OH)D, you should also ask for a Chemistry Panel plus complete blood count (CBC).  That way you'll have info on your electrolytes, calcium, and magnesium levels.  This is important as it will tell you if you need to add more calcium and or magnesium to your daily supplements.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 1961mom on Sep 11th, 2011 at 5:34pm
I'm a little scared of the calcium because I get kidney stones (though I'd rather pass 100 of those before getting another cluster).  I'll give it a go though, thanks for the tips....

Would the vitamin k2 be helpful for this?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 1961mom on Sep 11th, 2011 at 5:35pm

jhammer wrote on Sep 2nd, 2011 at 12:05pm:
I'm a little scared of the calcium because I get kidney stones (though I'd rather pass 100 of those before getting another cluster).  I'll give it a go though, thanks for the tips.


Sorry Jhammer... I meant to quote you, not copy & paste :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bhb on Sep 12th, 2011 at 2:37pm
after a couple of weeks of doing this I haven't had a really bad hit in the last 4 days and none, zero at night. Oddly I still wake up at the times I was getting them but no pain I can go back to sleep. A few minor hits during the day that a Red Bull and a few deep breaths in 5 minutes gone. I also haven't had any of those horrible day long shadows that just wear me out.

I also know that it's not just the end of my cycle, right now I'd be at the high point looking at a least a month to go.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 13th, 2011 at 8:21pm
Hey Bhb,

Thanks for the feedback and good on you for staying with this regimen long enough to give it time to work.  Wonderful feeling isn't it?

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 14th, 2011 at 2:37am
I had my neurological appt. And was somewhat less than impressed with the dr's response to my request for blood work.  He said that 'no one does that', regarding checking vitamin levels, etc...

I go to a research hospital to see the neuro.  Everytime I visit he has some medical students examine me first and then he comes in and goes over their findings with me.  This time there was a well informed student who seemed to know quite a bit about the vitamins and minerals I was taking.  He also mentioned that they were most likely responsible for my arrhythmia acting up since magnesium is one of the 'ions' that causes the heart to actually beat.  So I'll knock that one down a bit.  He also suggested that I take my recipe to my PCP and ask them for some advice 'cause the neuro wouldn't be interested...he was obviously right.

The good news is that I haven't gotten hit by the beast in over a week.  The Dr. Wanted to put me on Depakote again but I told him 'no thanks, I'll stick with what I'm doing now' :)  I asked for some abortive meds in case I come across some malicious strawberries again so he prescribed immitrex injections and oxygen later if that doesn't work.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 14th, 2011 at 2:54am

jhammer wrote on Sep 14th, 2011 at 2:37am:
I had my neurological appt. And was somewhat less than impressed with the dr's response to my request for blood work.  He said that 'no one does that', regarding checking vitamin levels, etc...


So ask why not? Then ask again...

With the interest from one of the medical students, get hold of their details and work with them. Feed them with information and they will no doubt be eager to learn as much as possible.


jhammer wrote on Sep 14th, 2011 at 2:37am:
he prescribed immitrex injections and oxygen later if that doesn't work.


Get oxygen now.

It's a life changer in being able to kill off CHs quickly, cheaply and with none of the side effects from imitrex.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Sep 14th, 2011 at 3:48am
Hi all, I haven't checked in for a while so thought I would update you - cycle ended last week - took 8 months this time instead of the usual 5 weeks!! Typically I got to meet my headache specialist yesterday. He was very knowledgeable about all the meds and oxygen etc and has instructed my Dr to arm me with a list of drugs before my next cycle begins - BUT when I mentioned the vitamin D3 regime he told me it wont have any effect on CH!! I told him how it has "saved me" from  months of pain and that I had not needed to take any drugs since the D3 took effect and he suggested that this was purely coincedental at which point I said I was not prepared to stop the regime to prove my point.
Im just a bit cross (dissapointed) that someone so well informed could be so narrow minded, happy to dish out drugs but not prepared to even consider there is a cheaper, healthier alternative.
What Batch has doing here is fantastic but its gonna take time to get the medical profession to get on board.
PF times everyone - keep taking the vitamins x

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bhb on Sep 14th, 2011 at 8:07am
Batch

It is a GREAT feeling to get ones life back. Now I can really enjoy the games - GO PACK GO

I was unsuccessful in getting my PCP to do blood work and I'm still waiting for my appt with my headache Dr. Called back in July when they started and soonest appt was Oct 21st, I'm actually thinking of canceling as she's not on board with o2 unless I'm in the ER. Too bad she's the only one anywhere near me, but as I got the welders o2 it doesn't matter and I have to decide if I'm going to tell her. That's something else I haven't needed to do in the last few days. This regime really works for me. I'm just so happy and not even our worst customer could get to me yesterday and he sure tried.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 14th, 2011 at 11:07am

bhb wrote on Sep 12th, 2011 at 2:37pm:
after a couple of weeks of doing this I haven't had a really bad hit in the last 4 days and none, zero at night. Oddly I still wake up at the times I was getting them but no pain I can go back to sleep.


Have you taken any kind of sleep aid?  I cannot fall back asleep at all, I try like hell for hours but to no avail.  I want to get away from the clonzepam if I can but I haven't found anything gentler that will actually keep me asleep all night and let me wake up without feeling grogy.

Thanks,

~Jake

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bhb on Sep 14th, 2011 at 11:48am
No so far I go right back to sleep within 10 minutes. I do keep a fan running on low for the white noise as I found many years ago it helped me sleep.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Sep 16th, 2011 at 5:28pm
Batch first THANKS. I am a episodic suffer here. I come back to visit every 2-3 years and you all are always here always helpful.

I started the "batch" on Tuesday after a serious 8-9 attack on Monday night. So far one light headache on the 14th is it. My one question is: When does the anxiety of another hit go away? This cycle has been weird to me though. It takes two days off and then POW it hits me again. Tonight will be two days off so I am praying this is the ticket. Either way the D3 has me feeling great during the day so its worth it alone. I will post tomorrow with the results of tonight.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Sep 17th, 2011 at 8:14am
Well my update. True to form I got a MILD hit this AM of about 2-3 and now mild shadows. This is better than the 8-9 and the very first thing I did when it woke me up was take my "batch" then hit a Monster drink. I do not have O2 and I was hoping that this would allow me to avoid it. I a month into my cycle so I hope it is over soon. You all have a great day.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 17th, 2011 at 8:57am
Hey Tgdurst,

Thanks for the feedback and kind words.  I suspect your anxiety over the next hit will end and you'll stop looking over your shoulder like David Janssen in The Fugitive after a week or so...  It took that long for me to finally realize this was a lasting and very healthy method of preventing my CH...

I've been keeping a running tally of responses to this regimen and so far the time to a favorable response appears bell shaped as expected with most folks reporting a significant decrease in the frequency and severity of their CH during the second week or they've gone pain free.  A few have reported favorable responses after two days and a few more have taken up to three weeks before they had a favorable response.

The time to a favorable response appears to be directly related to the serum level concentration of 25(OH)D, the metabolite of vitamin D3.  Data is sketchy at this point as only a few have managed to see their doctor for the 25(OH)D lab tests.  The few that have seen their doctor for this lab test indicated their levels of this metabolite were low.  A couple CH'ers who have been pain free for a month who also had their 25(OH)D levels tested reported they were at the upper end of the 100-200 nmol/L (40-80 ng/mL) normal range.

Hang in there and consider staying on this regimen as long as you can afford the 20 cents a day cost...  It has many healthy benefits beyond preventing CH as you've already noted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Sep 18th, 2011 at 7:15am
Update #2 woke up last night 1:48 super mild could have slept through it. Woke up at 6AM (kids soccer game) hit with a 6-7 (still with me) Monster and exercise  is all I can do. This sucks. Still on the "batch" and will be no matter what I have faith that this will work before my cycle is over.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Sep 18th, 2011 at 1:55pm
tgdurst,
Seems like your having problems with night attacks, same as me. Read the post about 4 below this one about melatonin, time release or regular. That might help alleviate the pain of waking of with a CH in the middle of the night and remember to wait a couple of days or more for it to work. I'm doing that right now!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Sep 19th, 2011 at 5:05pm
HI Batch

Ian here (UK, episodic on the "Batch" since April, pain free still).  TO all those who are not quite there with it please persist, it is so worth it.  My body feels supple, I have no niggles, my mind is bright quick and always alert, I sleep really well and I am so happy.  Batch my neuro has now taken the details including this blog and is recommending persistent CHers try the treatment, he even asked me for my souce of meds (try START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE for the St Clements fish oil if yours repeats on you, zero fish taste, no burps).

Be persistent and keep with it, this really works.

Ian :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 20th, 2011 at 9:46am
Ian,

Thanks for the wonderful update and for spreading the news that this regimen really works...  It's refreshing to hear that another neurologist sees the benefits of this regimen and the notion that Integrative and Holistic medicine has a place in the treatment of our disorder.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Sep 22nd, 2011 at 6:07am
My latest update. So for 3+ days NOTHING except paranoia. Yesterday should have been my pain day (like we can tell when it will hit) but nothing but fear hit me all day. I thought every eye twitch and extra bit of heat would bring the beast but nothing has been here for 3 days. So far so good.. if all is well on Sunday.. I will do my test.. run a 5K..

Thanks again all..

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shaggyparasol on Sep 23rd, 2011 at 1:55am
Hey there Batch and crew. 

I have been following this thread a bit and hoping it leads to another weapon in our cluster arsenal.  I figured I would add my recent experience to the mix. 

First off, I have been episodic for 27 years.  About 3 years ago I started on the Cluster Buster protocol and have beaten the pain back to almost nothing.  I still get occasional shadows and need to be careful about taking my medicine at proper times.

Currently I am in my cluster cycle (not getting any hits, but shadowing a bit and dosing with seeds and fungus).  I just had a check up with my Doc (naturopath and no real familiarity with CH) and the blood test showed:
-low vitamin D. 30 ng/ml (30-100 normal).  Doc suggested vitamin D supplements.
-low cholesterol 128 (normal 125-200).  Doc suggested Flax seed oil (omega 3) and unrefined sesame/sunflower oil for Omega 6.
-Another reading showed very acidic blood.  In addition my dentist yesterday filled some teeth where he thought something acidic had been eating away at the tooth.  We couldn't figure out what I had eaten and he thought maybe acidic saliva could be the cause.

My doc suggested a teaspoon of baking soda (non-aluminum) each day to raise the ph. 

It would be interesting, as others have noted, to get more info on the clusterheads and the various blood values during and between cycles to see how much is explainable.

Anyhoo, wanted to throw some more into the mix. Hope everyone is feeling good. :)

--The Shaggy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 23rd, 2011 at 2:42am
Hey Shaggy,

Thanks for the post and results of your 25-Hydroxyvitamin D3 test.  Your naturopath is spot on... with one small exception that's subject to reasonable discussion... 

The experts at the Vitamin D Council and many of Integrative/Naturopathic physicians who frequently treat patients deficient in vitamin D3 (really the super hormone) all claim that the normal reference range should be 40 to 80 ng/mL and as high as 90 ng/mL for lifeguards and folks who run around in swimsuits much of the day in the mid latitudes...  According to them, you're deficient.

The anti-inflammatory regimen is actually two regimens in one...  The anti-inflammatory part combines the properties of Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3 to provide the anti-inflammatory stimuli...  To be effective, the experts say you also need to dose with calcium, magnesium and zinc to gain the full benefit of the vitamin D3.  A few other Integrative/Naturopathic physicians also suggest vitamin K with the above regimen...

The second part of the anti-inflammatory regimen occurs you combine the calcium citrate used in this regimen with lemonade, limeade, or any other fruit juice high in citric acid.  They combine in the stomach to form a buffer that elevates the arterial pH...  This is essential when it comes to controlling cluster headaches as an elevated arterial pH stimulates vasoconstriction and that works against the cluster headache triggering mechanism.

The Omega 3 Fish Oil is also a great regulator of cholesterol.  It helps balance the HDL and LDL while lowering the really bad triglycerides... Lots of studies on the use of Omega 3 Fish Oil to control cholesterol at NIH...

If you'll give this regimen a try, I'll wager your shadows will be a thing of the past...  It works that well...  You just need to give it a little time.  Studies have shown it can take as long as three months to elevate serum levels of 25(OH)D from 20 ng/mL up to 60 ng/mL at a daily dose of 10,000 I.U./day.

Most of the CH'ers who have found relief from their cluster headaches and gone pain free using this regimen have done so near the end of their second week;

Thanks again for the post.  Again, it sounds like your Neuropath is spot on with his assessments and recommendations...

You might find the paper by Dr. Peter Lewis of interest.  It discusses the tests for 25-Hydroxyvitamin D and dosing.  To convert nmol/L to ng/mL divide by 2.5.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=VITAMIN_D_-_Dr__Lewis.pdf (186 KB | 14 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by coach_bill on Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:14pm
Batch,

I remember reading in the post that you maybe switching to just the d3 @10,000 I.U daily to see if was just the d3. Did you try this yet? has it worked?

Thanks, Coach Bill

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 24th, 2011 at 6:16am
Coach Bill,

The short answer is no...  I've stayed on the full regimen for nearly a year.  My wife has been taking the same regimen for nearly that long and she doesn't have cluster headaches...  She did have migraines, but they appear to be a thing of the past like my cluster headaches.

After reading more about vitamin D3, it was clear that supplementing with calcium, magnesium and zinc was essential for the body to process vitamin D3 effectively. 

I've also taken Omega 3 Fish Oil for several years and found it had a moderating effect on the frequency of my cluster headaches so I saw no reason to stop taking it.  Omega 3 Fish Oil is also very effective at keeping my cholesterol levels in balance and in the normal range.

In short, there are too many benefits from taking the entire regimen to change anything...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Sep 27th, 2011 at 6:11am
My next update: 1 week pain free..then I decided to work out - on of my old triggers - each day after I worked out woke up with a mild 1-2 2-3 headache just enough to piss me off. I got hit last night 2:20 after a workout in the afternoon. So my triggers are still triggers it would appear. But the outcome is much better (although I am still beat sitting here at work) still on the batch..cant see a reason to stop.. now the question is, do I stop working out again or deal with the 2-3 headache the next day???

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 27th, 2011 at 3:04pm
Thanks for the update...

Give this regimen another week or two an you'll have so much energy... you'll need to run...  and there won't be any CH...

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I was cutting fire wood and packing it out of the woods to load my pickup several times a week after six weeks on this regimen...  and no CH!

You're still building 25(OH)D levels, and given the fact you got hit during and after running, you're likely still boarder line vitamin D3 deficient.

Our bodies consume roughly 5,000 I.U. vitamin D3/day...  At a therapeutic dose of 10,000 I.U. a day it can take up to three months to reach the center of the normal reference range of 100-200 nmol/L (40-80 ng/m>).

If you've got the time, ask your doctor for a lab test of your 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D, and you'll know for sure where you are in the process of going pain free for good.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jhammer on Sep 29th, 2011 at 10:00am

shaggyparasol wrote on Sep 23rd, 2011 at 1:55am:
...In addition my dentist yesterday filled some teeth where he thought something acidic had been eating away at the tooth.  We couldn't figure out what I had eaten and he thought maybe acidic saliva could be the cause....


Interesting, I have the same condition.  My dentist tells me that me teeth have 'decalcified' due to acidic drinks or something.  I've been using Pro-namel for a couple years now which helped re-mineralize the teeth.  But aside from that, I'd be interested to have my blood tested for that as well.

~Jake

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shaggyparasol on Sep 30th, 2011 at 11:31am
Hi Jake.  I think it would be really interesting to do a very thorough study of us clusterheads and look for common threads.  We do it on our own on the web and at conferences, but a medical study with dental, blood tests etc.  All the stuff we are thinking may play a part in the attacks.

I just went through some frequent shadows/oncoming cycle.  Every 11 months now it seems to try to sneak back in.  2 doses of RC seeds and 2 light/medium doses of mushrooms and the shadows have been gone for about 2 weeks now.  Beer test coming soon.  I also started on 4-8,000 iu's of vit D (may ramp it up, need to read more about it) and 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda (with lemonade Batch) daily to lower acidity.  Life is good for now (3 years actually).

All the dental stuff sucks, but my teeth feel back to normal and hopefully I will get the ph thing under control a bit.

Take it easy cluster friends! ;)

--The Shaggy :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Oct 1st, 2011 at 7:20am
Hi all!  I had my blood tested again.  All values are normal, except for Vit. D.  Also - all calcium related values are normal. 

I've been very loyal to Batch' regimen for 3 months now. One month ago my vit D level  (25-OH) was 225 nmol/L. Now it's 295 nmol/L.  That's 
90 and 118 ng/m - both well beyond the reference values - 100-200 nmol/L  (40-80 ng/m).

So my Vit D levels are perhaps too high.  I will begin taking only 5.000 IU every other day.

As for Mr. Cluster - he's still around. I've had  some occasional shadows and some very few hits in the lower KIP area.

This pattern is radically new in my 20+ yrs Cluster career, so as for me, there is no doubt left about the effectiveness of this regimen. The root cause of cluster headaches is apparently not affected, but the symptoms most certainly are. I now live a normal life and informing people that I suffer from cluster headaches almost feel artificial, i really don't suffer at all.

As for other notable effects: Sleep, mood and general health  are affected. Quality of sleep has become exceptionally high. I sleep like a happy child. Also falling in sleep - my usual problem - is generally much easier.  My spirit is higher, no streaks of depression. I'm also quire sure that by body now easily fends off the common cold.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 2nd, 2011 at 4:00pm
Rune,

Awesome post...  Talk about a game changer...  You're taking us into uncharted waters with respect to controlling CH with this vitamin D3 based regimen.  You've also made two important points that other CH'ers need to understand and remember:

1.  This regimen isn't 100% effective for everyone...  but it can reduce the frequency and severity of cluster headaches to acceptable levels...  without adverse side effects...

2.  Rune has also taken a proactive approach to this regimen with regular tests for 25(OH)D and is adjusting his dose for vitamin D3 accordingly.

Rune has also done his homework... Although he's exceeded the 25(OH)D upper limit of 100 ng/mL (250 nmol/L), he knows he's still a long way from the toxicity threshold level - 200-250 ng/mL (500-750 nmol/L) or the record... according to the experts at the Vitamin D Council... 

It appears the record holders are two Multiple Sclerosis sufferers who were self-dosing on 2,000,000 I.U./day to control the onerous symptoms of their disorder - both men recovered...

See: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

This is a good read for everyone on the anti-inflammatory regimen or contemplating starting it. 

The last thing we want is bum gouge/misinformation floating around that spooks CH'ers away from giving this regimen a try...

As the Vitamin D3 Council states on the topic of vitamin D3 toxicity... 

"Can too much vitamin D be harmful? Yes, it certainly can - though anything can be toxic in excess, even water. As one of the safest substances known to man, vitamin D toxicity is very rare. In fact, people are at far greater risk of vitamin D deficiency than they are of vitamin D toxicity."

Take care and thanks again Rune.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Edgordon on Oct 4th, 2011 at 12:18am
I have had CH for 20 years. I was finally diagnoised in 2004 after going to the emergency room 3 times in two weeks. After that my doctor prescribed me prednisone. I took prednisone until the cycle ended, which was only a guess. After 30 days I would start the taper down from 50ml per day. If I started to feel shadows I would ramp back up for two more weeks. That is all I have ever had for managment of CH and it had worked  until recently. It stopped working and I had forgotten how painful CH can get untreated. I found this website and am I ever thankful. I asked for help and had many people respond. Like start this regiment. Since I can't afford a doctor and the meds right now I have been looking for an alternative that is affordable. I started the "BATCH" regiment today. This may be coincidence, But Even tonight, I do not have the shadow ache that I normally get every night. I will keep everyone updated every day.   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 4th, 2011 at 4:07am
Hey Ed,

Thanks for the post and good move on starting the anti-inflammatory regimen.  I think you're going to like it a lot.

BTW, I live 70 miles North of you between Bremerton and Silverdale near a wide spot in the road called Tracyton.  Shoot me a PM and let's see if we can arrange a rendezvous.  It's always a hoot to meet another CH'er.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Oct 8th, 2011 at 1:15pm
Next update.  End of 3 weeks. Pain free days for 2.5 weeks now. For the most part pain free night 2 times woken up with 1 or 2 slight headaches this always follwed a hardworkout during the day or a run.  I upped my D3 to 15000iu Wednesday and have been great since. Killer workout yesterday slept late today Ifirst time in months) and took a 5 mile run today. If I make it through tonight then I consider myself golden. I will keep D3 up to 15000 for another week then drop it down to 10000 again. Batch I am sceduling a blood test just so you/we can keep adding data to this and help others.  You all have a great (hopefully) pain free day.

Todd

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 8th, 2011 at 3:54pm
Hey Todd,

Outstanding sitrep...  and good on you for scheduling the 25(OH)D test.  We need all the data points possible to determine the optimum therapeutic range for CH'ers.

I've been PF for a year and 4 days on this regimen.  :)

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by indigotony on Oct 9th, 2011 at 3:32am
Hi
The beast returned 10 days ago
3 a night 6 to 7 on the kip scale
Not on meds apart from rizatriptan
Started the omega 3 and multiple vitamins 3 days ago, now got d3, 2200iu, start them today,
Also had a bath in Epsom salts, another post.
Last night, sleep, all night, awoke feeling great.
I hope it continues, thanks for the tip
Tony

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by British Isles on Oct 9th, 2011 at 2:43pm
Congrates on finding a way to destroy the beast. I have tried that method and it kinda helped me for a while. Now I go to a acupuncturist and get 4 shots of 1cc of vitamin E to the nerve bundles above my eye and in my temple and so far no attacks for two years.
It feels great to know that you don't have to experience the pain anymore!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dirty on Oct 16th, 2011 at 4:43pm
I am new here and have a lot more reading to do.  I just wanted to give my 2 cents.  On Friday of this week, I started taking omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 10,000IU. I am also on pridnisone, verapamil, redbull, Bronkaid and   exercise.  All I know is my KIP has gone way down.  I just had my daily afternoon attack.  I slamed monster energy drink and took a Bronkaid the minute I felt something weird  (a shadow).  The pain went to about a 4  and then the DIRTY cluster evaporated.  I didn't take a imitrex for the first time.  :-) i want to say something is finally working.  Could it be the vitamins already? or is my cycle ending? Only time will tell.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Oct 17th, 2011 at 10:20pm
Ok, so, at one point this past August, I was taking about 15000 IU of D3. I think it was about a week or two at the most. I went down to 10000 IU though and then eventually down to 5000 (which I am still taking now) simply because I need to save money and ration my vitamins. LOL (I'm a college student. lol) But also, when I was taking the higher doses, I didn't really notice that much of a difference energy-wise. I know Batch, you said your wife is taking 15K and has more energy. I didn't really notice much difference at all. Was I simply not on the higher dose for long enough? Or was it because I hadn't added the Omega3 and the rest to the regimen?

Something I have noticed. (And for those who don't know, I don't use D3 for CH because I don't have CH, but I've heard so many good things about D3.) A lot of colds and bugs have been going around my school this year. At one point I got pretty stuffy and had some sinus pressure, but that's as bad as it got while everyone else was like, out sick. lol So, this stuff really does boost your immune system. That much is for sure. I'm noticing that even with just taking 5000 IU.

Another thing. I've been telling friends and familly about D3 and how they should take it for health benefits. Then I mention the number 10000 IU and they freak out and say that's too much. So, I tell them "No no no, you see, I was on this forum online..." and they're like O_O "A FORUM on the internet??? You NEVER get medical info on an online forum! Only trust professionals!" and they end up listening to their doctors that say 10000 IU is too much. -.- How do I convince people that their doctors are wrong and the internet (in this case) is right? LOL

Also Batch, have I ever told you that your avatar is made of pure epic win? I think I have. But I felt the need to say it again. XD

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dirty on Oct 17th, 2011 at 11:00pm
Last Friday night I went to the er with a DIRTY CLUSTER 10 kip.  I told them what medication I was on (imitrex 100 mg TAB prescribed on 10/13/2011, prednisone 20 mg Tab prescribed on 10/10/2011 34 total pills starting with 4 a day then slowly dose down? , verapamil tab 120mg prescribed on 10/14/2011) and then they gave me an iv.  The cluster went away after 45 minutes and lots of throwing up.   I was released from the ER and about 3 to 4 hours later I had another 8 kip DIRTY cluster headache.  I did a lot of reading on here that night and Saturday morning I purchased and took the vitamins. I also purchased Bronkaid, and redbulls.  Anyway, I have not had a cluster headache.  My right eye doesn't feel blury and the right side of my brain feels great.  i actually enjoyed life a little today.  Also, I had 36 treximet tab pills that I had saved my last cluster attacks 18 months ago.  I had them stored in my safe.  When those pills ran out about 2 or 3 weeks ago, thats when I went to the comunity health center.  So I have been in my cycle for about 5 weeks I guess.  I am taking the prednisone and verapamil on top of the vitamins. Also redbulls and a total of 2 bronkaids tablets.   I was told my medication was low doses.  That is why I am posting.  my last cycle 18 months ago lasted a few weeks longer than this cycle at 5 weeks.  I honestly feel in my heart and soul the vitamins are the answer.  I have oxygen and imitrex on stand by though.  I have a doctors appointment tomorrow and I plan on stopping all medication soon.  Redbulls, exercise and vitamins are the route i'm going.  Any thoughts,  explanations, or input would be highly appreciated.  thanks in advance.  Hopefully no more DIRTY HEADACHES..............

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Oct 17th, 2011 at 11:10pm
@ Dirty, have you added the Magnesium and Calcium Citrate to your daily vitamins? Make sure you follow Batch's instructions very clearly with the formula. Very wise, he is.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wolfpack on Oct 18th, 2011 at 5:54pm
This has not worked for me, in the least?  In fact, the CH'S seem to have gotten more severer.  6 weeks now on this regimen.  Maybe my blood pressure med and Zoloft, have something to do with it?? 
I am so happy it's helped some others though and I wish you all the best.  I get so anxious just to even sign on here, but I want to contribute in any way that I can, in hopes we will ALL have help in the near future! 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Oct 18th, 2011 at 9:27pm
Welcome to the board Wolfpack, what else do you have to treat your CH? Oxygen? A good prevent med? As with it seems every other CH treatment, we haven't found anything that works for everyone, just the nature of the beast. But there's so much out there to try, would hate to see you miss out on any of the more popular treatments out there.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dirty on Oct 19th, 2011 at 11:54am

Jair Crawford wrote on Oct 17th, 2011 at 11:10pm:
@ Dirty, have you added the Magnesium and Calcium Citrate to your daily vitamins? Make sure you follow Batch's instructions very clearly with the formula. Very wise, he is.


Before my cluster cycle even started I felt like chit a couple months ago.  Something was wrong with me but I couldn't explain it.  Then about 5 weeks ago my cycle started.  I started taking vitamins last Saturday morning after being released from the ER.  I have been pf since then and never felt better.  More energy and a positive outlook on life.   I haven't added the Magnesium and Calcium Citrate to my daily dose until today.

My doctor yesterday gave me a script for oxygen and imitrex for the next cycle even though I am pf. I figure I would stock pile up now.  At this time, I feel so good I don't need to make an appointment with the neurosurgeon.  My cycle is 5-8 weeks with clusters every 18 months for the last 10 years.  So in about 18 more months, I will know for sure if the vitamins are the miracle answer for me.  ;D  I will never stop taking the vitamins  8-)  Thanks for your help.  I LOVE YOU BATCH. LOl peace  :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 19th, 2011 at 3:32pm
Interesting comments…  I'll start with the obligatory disclaimer that I'm not a doctor and you should see your PCP or neurologist about this regimen… 

Having said that, I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few years ago, and I'm a long time CH'er like many of you with the last six years as a chronic type averaging 3 CH/day over that period…  Fortunately, my CH aborted easily and rapidly with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation…  I took no other CH meds… 

All that ended last October, two days after I started this regimen…  I've been PF ever since…

I'll address your comments in order.

Tony, it's been over a week since your last post on this topic…  Howzit?  If you respond like 78% of the others who reported this regimen effective, you should be in tall cotton about now and free of the beast…  Please let us know…

Hey Dirty, I'm delighted at your response to vitamin D3 therapy and thank you for the kind words. 
Several of us experienced a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen within 48 hours…  Most CH'ers who started this regimen experienced relief near the end of the second week, and a few have taken over a month…  As near as we can figure, this is likely due to the initial level of 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D, the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3. 

The normal reference range for 25(OH)D is 100-200 nmol/L (40-80 ng/mL).  However, reports from CH'ers who have gone pain free on this regimen and had the 25(OH)D test done at the three month mark were mostly in the 150-225 nmol/L (60-90 ng/mL) range.  A few overshot this target range with 25(OH)D levels between 250 - 295 nmol/L with no adverse effects… 

There's also sufficient clinical evidence that indicates that it can take up to three months at a therapeutic dose of 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 to elevate 25(OH)D levels from 50 nmol/L up to 150 nmol/L.

Jair, Good point about taking the calcium and magnesium supplements…  Both are important when taking vitamin D3.  The vitamin D3 Council suggests a total daily intake of magnesium at 500 to 700 mg.  Given magnesium is present in green veggies, a daily supplement of 400 mg. magnesium should be sufficient.  They also recommend zinc and vitamin K as the other two cofactors that help the body metabolize vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D and process it effectively.

There's also nothing scary about a vitamin D3 dose of 5,000 to 10,000 I.U./day or 25(OH)D levels in the 150-225 nmol/L range as they're consistent with measurements taken on lifeguards who spend an average of 6 hours in the sun.

25(OH)D levels this high are also well below the toxicity threshold range of 500-750 nmol/L, (200-250 ng/mL).  If your 25(OH)D level climbs to the 200-225 nmol/L range, or you've been on this regimen for three months, whichever occurs first, lower the daily dose of vitamin D3 to 5,000 I.U. 

A bathing suit clad person's skin can make 5,000 to 10,000 I.U. of vitamin D3 in as little as 30 minutes exposure to the UVB in direct sunlight….  There are studies that prove this as well…

Folks at the Vitamin D Council also have evidence from studies to substantiate the fact that we normally metabolize the equivalent of 3000 to 5000 I.U. vitamin D3 a day…  That makes a daily intake of 5,000 I.U. vitamin D3, a maintenance dose.

See the following link for the Vitamin D3 Council page on vitamin D3 intoxication. If you read through all the tabs on this site, you'll be an expert on how to supplement with vitamin D3:

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As far as taking this regimen along with other CH meds goes… There shouldn't be any problems.  There are no significant contraindications listed…  Prednisone may slow the rate at which vitamin D3 is metabolized into 25(OH)D, but a therapeutic dose of vitamin D3 at 10,000 I.U./day should provide a sufficient margin.

In addition, taking the calcium supplements in this regimen may lessen the therapeutic effect of verapamil.  Having said that, the data collected in this area came from a clinical study of heart patients taking verapamil…  not CH'ers…  Taking the calcium and fast acting verapamil 8 to 10 hours apart should help prevent any significant interference between the two.

Hey Wolfpack, let me echo Joe's Welcome Aboard…  and hang in there…  A couple of CH'ers were on this regimen for nearly two months before they started having a favorable response…  Both were chronic so the cessation of their CH wasn't due to end of cycle.

The best course of action is to see your doctor and have the 25(OH)D lab test done… You may as well ask for a chemistry panel + complete blood count (CBC) at the same time.  This will give you and your doctor a good look at your 25(OH)D level as well as electrolytes, calcium and other values to make sure there are no other deficiencies or insufficiencies.

If you haven't had a favorable response by the three-month mark or have been your doctor for the 25(OH)D test, drop the daily vitamin D3 intake to 5,000 I.U.

Also remember, this regimen is not 100% effective for everyone.  Like Joe said, "we haven't found anything that works for everyone…"  To that I'll add… we're getting close.  We have a few CH'ers with 25(OH)D levels above the optimum range of 150-225 nmol/L who have experienced a marked reduction in CH frequency and severity, but still have occasional low level CH.

Why this happens and why some CH'ers do not have a favorable response to this regimen even with 25(OH)D levels in the optimum range is clearly the subject of further research.  A low arterial pH from diet or another conditions is a possible reason.  Comorbid disorders like thyroid insufficiencies may also play a roll.  The sooner we get this regimen into a formal clinical study, the better.
 
This is still a healthy regimen worth taking even if it doesn't prevent CH.  All you need to do is compare its risk-reward ratio with verapamil and some of the other off-label CH preventatives…   

Moreover, even though this regimen didn't prevent CH completely for some, they felt it reduced the frequency and severity to a level that gave them back a quality of life they didn't think possible with CH. 

They also report other favorable responses to this regimen such as fewer colds, they sleep better, depression is gone, more energy, and an overall sensation of wellness.  What's not to like about that? 

See your PCP or neurologist for the 25(OH)D lab test then take it from there…

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Oct 19th, 2011 at 7:04pm
Ok so do you think the reason that I wasn't really 'noticing' anything with the higher dose of D3 was because all I was taking was the D3 alone, without the Omega3, Magnesium, and Calcium Citrate?

And thanks for the links! Hopefully that'll convince people that D3 really isn't as easy to OD on as they think. lol

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wolfpack on Oct 19th, 2011 at 7:29pm
Thanks for the words of encouragement!  I REALLY appreciate it!  Called the doc for another round of Prednisone today and will start Depakote (haven't been on this for 2 years) once I am finished with the Predisnone.

I will continue with the regimen.  Maybe I am a "slow" taker! Today, I skipped everything.  Used my Zomig nasal spray about 3:00.  These have been the difference from going insane or leading a "so called" normal life.

What I don't get is this?  What are the ingredients of Predisone that makes "the Beast" disappear? And, the RedBulls?  There seems to be this nerve that is ending up somewhere that it shouldn't be on the right side of my eye.  It's been 8 years now and I feel like I have tried everything!!

Yes, got my physical last year and vitamin d was very low.  So, started getting that corrected. Saw another study about testosterone.  Mine was extremely low (I am 45) . Started that regimen and the "beast" was gone for almost a year, so I thought that was the answer, but then it returned.  Testy levels are norm now, but the CH's are still around. 

There has got to be something with the ingredients that help us:  Testy Med's, RedBull, Prednisone, Vitamin D3, Calcium?? What is the combo between these things?? 

Will report back.  And again, I am so thankful to all of you that are giving suggestions/ideas to help us ALL!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Oct 19th, 2011 at 11:04pm

wolfpack wrote on Oct 19th, 2011 at 7:29pm:
Called the doc for another round of Prednisone today and will start Depakote (haven't been on this for 2 years) once I am finished with the Predisnone.


You normally start the two preventives at once, with the prednisione being effective until the other has chance to build up. Check with your doctor about what you should be taking and when.


wolfpack wrote on Oct 19th, 2011 at 7:29pm:
What are the ingredients of Predisone that makes "the Beast" disappear? And, the RedBulls?


For Red Bull it's the caffeine and taurine that do the "magic". I'm sure that the carbonation helps increate teh rate at which they are absorbed, making them effective quicker.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Oct 19th, 2011 at 11:38pm

Quote:
Prednisone is a synthetic corticosteroid drug that is particularly effective as an immunosuppressant drug. It is used to treat certain inflammatory diseases and (at higher doses) some types of cancer, but has significant adverse effects. Because it suppresses the immune system, it leaves patients more susceptible to infections.

It is usually taken orally but can be delivered by intramuscular injection or intravenous injection. It has a mainly glucocorticoid effect. Prednisone is a prodrug that is converted by the liver into prednisolone, which is the active drug and also a steroid.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lsarver3808 on Oct 25th, 2011 at 7:37am
Start my husband on this on Saturday.  Didn't add the calcium citrate until yesterday as I had a brain fart and missed it.  Since then he as slept through the night every night.  Has had some other hits though.  This cycle was acting strange to start with.  He is about 1.5 weeks into a usual 5-6 week cycle.  Obviously hoping that adding the missing factor will make things even better.  When I say this cycle was acting strange, I mean  he was getting hits but they were lower level on the kip scale.  They didn't ramp up like they usually do.  The night before he started Batch's program, he was up every 2 hours getting hits all night long though which was the worst it had gotten thus far in this cycle.  Since then, he has only gotten 1 hit per day, last night was a bad one though.  My fingers and toes are crossed that this will work for him....Will update more when a little further into this cycle.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Oct 25th, 2011 at 1:34pm
Started on Pets’s regime….. not voluntarily…..  it was rather a complot between my wife (Marta) and Pete… 

the disadvantages of the fast communication (e-mail  / Skype etc.)

Marta  had all the remedies shipped Fed Ex or DHL (don’t know)  from the USA to Switzerland…..

now I am on a strict regime – and under tight control….. 

Pete, wonder if I will see a “wonder”….. or even just a small improvement…..  it will be very welcome.

Michael



Pete, big fonts....  ::)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jimi on Oct 25th, 2011 at 3:29pm
I hear a voice crying out from the wilderness. :)

Hello Michael. [smiley=wave.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 25th, 2011 at 10:58pm
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 Ya gotta love a smart wife...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Oct 27th, 2011 at 11:04am
Hi Batch, and gang.

Batch, it is amazing and wonderful to hear you have been PF for a year!!

I tried this regimen several months ago, but the Vitamin D3 clashed with my high dose of Topiramate, and the result was it turned my urine on fire. During the time I was able to take it, it did seem to take affect within 2-3 days, and did seem to flat-line the demon.

But, here I am, several months on and have increased my Topiramate to 400mg a day, and I'm still getting attacks, well, I wish I could say I were still getting them at my normal rate of every 3 days. But they are really more often than that.

So, I'm going to wean myself off Topiramate and give this this regimen a try. And you know, I actually have more faith in this than anything else at the moment.

xx Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Oct 28th, 2011 at 10:02pm
Over 1 month ago started this regimen with 15K IU D3, Magnesium Citrate 500MG, Omega3 3600MG, Calcium Citrate 500MG, all washed down w/ a tall glass of lemonade containing 12% juice with dinner.

Still no relief and am in very high cycle.

Got online and went to LabsMD at START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE and ordered the 25(OH) D test for this Monday.  Cost $59 bucks and should post findings on this thread no later than Wednesday.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kudzu on Oct 29th, 2011 at 9:25pm
Been suffering with CH for years now.  Realized this past week that the headaches I was getting in the Navy after swimming were minor CH.  I've been on Verapamil and Imitrex for three years now.  Last week it's as if I hadn't been taking anything.  A 9-10 hit.  It was about 6pm and my wife was up and got to experience the whole begging for mercy.  Decided to come back here and see if there was any other meds and found this thread.  Started the regimen immediately but without the Calcium.  I assumed one of my joint pills was calcium.  I suffered a 5 at 6am on Thursday.  That night my wife and I bought exactly what we needed and I started the official regimen Thursday night.  Cycle should be in full effect but seems to have just stopped.  By this point I should have had a CH Thu, Fri, and today but so far so good.

Thanks so much, so far for the work on this.  I have not been able to carry any significant amount of sick or annual leave because of CH.  Even cost me a job almost 10 years ago.  I was very nervous because I just started a new job and the dragon awoke with a vengeance.  Who knew the dragon just needed to be fed some vitamins/minerals?

Anyhow, I will keep taking this because I prefer this regimen than the Verapamil/Imitrex + whatever else they decide to give me.  My neurologist is good and open to new ideas so I will share with her on Tuesday.  Not enough time to prove much of anything but as long as I'm pain free, I'm happy...so is my wife.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Oct 30th, 2011 at 12:32pm
Batch just checking in. I am STILL pain free THANK GOD (and Batch) and I got my blood test about 2 weeks ago and have yet to get it from my Dr. after 3 phone calls and 3 emails etc. I WILL get them this week and post the D3 results here.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Oct 31st, 2011 at 5:54am
Name                                   Value              Reference Range
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy            63.0            32.0-100.0 ng/mL

and as if by magic it comes this AM. It looks good now.. I have/had no frame of reference to start from though but I am sure it was not within range.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClusteredChef on Oct 31st, 2011 at 10:00pm
Hey all, I've taken the time to read this whole thread. It seems your definitely on to something here. I to have started the regimen 2 days ago. However my cycle appears to be winding down as the daily attacks had stopped and was enjoying PFDAN here and there for a couple of days at a time. I was attacked the first night but last night was PF.
I'm a big guy 6'2" over 250# So I went with 20000 IU D3, 4800mg Omega 3, Magnesium Citrate 400mg in pill form in the morning and 375mg at nite in the form of a powder drink mix at night, Calcium Citrate formulated with Mag, zinc, and D3 500mg. Everything seems to be going better. Last night I slept like a baby. During my cycles I don't ever sleep well even on PF nights. Its like I wake myself up just to make sure I'm not in pain. I do this every 90 mins-2 hrs. And as we all know how much of a toll that puts on you after awhile.

Thank you to everyone who has made this site possible. Before I found it I was a wits end. I was really close to being another statistic to the nickname of these damn headaches. This site and the people involved with it have given me hope and that really means alot when you become that desperate. Thank you all.

Wishing all PFDAN
Daivd

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Nov 2nd, 2011 at 7:51pm

LasVegas wrote on Oct 28th, 2011 at 10:02pm:
Over 1 month ago started this regimen with 15K IU D3, Magnesium Citrate 500MG, Omega3 3600MG, Calcium Citrate 500MG, all washed down w/ a tall glass of lemonade containing 12% juice with dinner.

Still no relief and am in very high cycle.

Got online and went to LabsMD at START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE and ordered the 25(OH) D test for this Monday.  Cost $59 bucks and should post findings on this thread no later than Wednesday.



Yesterday after they drew my blood, was told results could take up to 9 days.  Just received results in less than 24 hours.  Truly exceptional company and highly recommend-see link above.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Result: 103.0 HIGH
Reference Interval: 32.0--100.0

Effective 11/21/2011, Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy reference intervals will be changing to 30--100

Recent studies consider the lower limit of 32.0 ng/mL to be a threshold for optimal health.
Hollis BW.  J Nutr.  2005 Feb;135(2) :317-22."
----------------------------------------------------------------
About 6 or 7 weeks of this anti-inflammatory regimen and am in high cycle with 6 to 12 attacks daily.  Obviously no benefit thus far but will continue in hope it eventually helps.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 2:03pm
Hi all,

I am now just over 3 weeks into Pete's and my wife's CH - [pH] boot camp therapy..
It seems as things are somewhat better, hardly any day time CH episodes, And if day episode, a low level and short, easily treated with O2, at 40lpm. Within 5 min. including extra time to abort, not only the symptoms (pain),but the cause!

As for the night, don't have it totally under control, pain level during a CH episode is distinctively diminished and easily treated with O2, at 40lpm. Within 5 min. including extra time to abort, not only the  symptoms (pain),but the cause!

It is too short of an experience, to pass an objective and realistic
statement,it does seem to work, and provide the sought-after relief (partial relief),even if it is just the placebo effect.

Open is the lab work, testing and supervising the various levels cardinal to This procedure, as well as avoiding any adverse effect that might accrue.   

I would like to point out:

•      The anti-inflammatory properties of Omega 3 Fish Oil and the synergistic effect of the calcium citrate in this regimen on CH when taken together juice high in citric acid to lower arterial pH may be playing an important role in lowering the frequency and severity of my CH.

•      I'm already dosing continuously on vitamin D3 and calcium due to osteoporosis due to an allergic reaction resulting from the betamethasone used in the occipital nerve blocks I was having to combat CH.  The D3 is coming from an implanted reservoir and not orally...  The vitamin D3 reservoir has been keeping my 25(OH)D well within the normal reference range.

•      As a 7/24 chronic heavy hitter for over 5 years, I've tried everything including a greater occipital nerve implant stimulator and I was still getting slammed...  After three weeks on this regimen, I'm experiencing a noticeable reduction in the frequency and severity of my CH.

•      I [try to] remain objective...  My CH are not gone, but they are clearly less frequent, less severe and easily  manageable with oxygen therapy at 40 lpm... Perhaps giving my body what it needs to combat CH is a better course of action than using the nuclear option on the symptoms...


And back to work and sore the sky with a sailplane……… and my obscurity…..



Michael


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:07am
Todd, Kudzu, Gregg, ClusteredChef, and Michael,

Thank you for the SITREPs and the results of your 25(OH)D labs while on the anti-inflammatory regimen.  This is really helping to define the optimum 25(OH)D range for CH'ers and the efficacy of this regimen.  That includes reports that "It's not working" or "No Change" as they help define the lower bounds.

I've been collecting data on 25(OH)D levels reported here at CH.com and by direct email with respect to CH activity for the last few months.   

For the CH'ers who were experiencing active CH attacks and had the lab test for 25(OH)D done either before starting this regimen or within a few days after starting it.  So far, all were ≤ 105 nmol/L (42 ng/mL).  In short, this data supports a general statement, that all of the CH'ers who reported their results of this lab test with active CH, were vitamin D3 deficient... 

Think about that for a minute... Is the relationship coincidental as most of us are vitamin D3 deficient unless we're supplementing or one of the outside trades out in the sun with skin exposed for several hours a day... or is the relationship causal? 

Could CH be like Rickets where a vitamin D deficiency or impaired metabolism of vitamin D3 causes a softening of bones in children...  or in our case, where something in the pathophysiology of cluster headache is enabled by the same deficiency or impaired metabolism of vitamin D3, magnesium, phosphorus or calcium?   You decide...

CH'ers who have gone pain free dosing on vitamin D3 at 10,000 I.U./day and had this test done after 30 to 90 days while on this regimen reported 25(OH)D levels in a range of 150 nmol/L, (60 ng/mL) up to 225 nmol/L, (90 ng/mL)...  Todd, you're in the zone...  Good on you... 

We still have exceptions...  One CH'er who has been working closely with his primary care physician and having his 25(OH)D as well as Chem panel and CBC tests done monthly, reported his 25(OH)D at 295 nmol/L (118 ng/mL) at the 90 day mark while dosing at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3. 

As high as these levels may sound, they're well below the vitamin D3 intoxication threshold of 500 nmol/L (200 ng/mL).  Although he's not completely free of his CH, he's not lost any time away from work because of them and the few CH he does have are easily managed with oxygen therapy. 

We're learning a lot about the effect of this regimen on CH... and there's clearly more to be learned.  Time to a therapeutic response, (experiencing a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH or going pain free), has been reported by most at between two days and three weeks with the majority experiencing relief from their CH by the end of the second week.  A few have taken longer.

We've also learned from a number of studies that we would need to take significantly higher doses of vitamin D3 than 10,000 I.U./day to reach the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication. 

The Vitamin D Council at START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE lists the toxicity threshold level at 500-750 nmol/L, (200-250 ng/mL).  Lots of great information about vitamin D3 and the cofactor mineral supplements on this site.

Another great site for vitamin D3 information is Grassroots Health at START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE Their home page features a plot of 3667 people who have had lab tests for 25(OH)D collected every six months during their participation in an international survey hosted by GrassRoots Health that started in 2008. 

The voluntary participants in this survey have been taking a range of vitamin D3 doses from zero to 10,000 I.U./day while having their 25(OH)D level tested every six months.  There's a $60 fee each 6 months for sponsorship in the 5 year project which includes a complete new 25(OH)D test kit, new questionnaire entry and reporting of results.

The most significant finding from this survey is all participants dosing at ≤ 10.000 I.U./day vitamin D3 have remained below the vitamin D3 intoxication threshold of 500 nmol/L (200 ng/mL) 25(OH)D.

I found the attached paper on Anticancer Research titled: Vitamin D Supplement Doses and Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D in the Range Associated with Cancer Prevention that used data from the GrassrootsHealth survey above.  It has a table that shows that over 300 participants have been dosing at 10,000 IU/day as illustrated in the graph on the GrassrootsHealth home page, many for more than a year at this point...  and all remain below the vitamin D3 threshold for toxicity. 

I've sent the authors of this paper an email asking for a breakout of participants dosing at 10,000 I.U./day with their 25(OH)D response curve over time in six-month increments as far out in months as the data supports... I'll let you know if and how they respond...

The raw efficacy of the anti-inflammatory regimen as a CH preventative is encouraging...  As of the end of October, nearly 100 CH'ers have reported starting this regimen here at CH.com, at ClusterBusters, or directly to me by email.  70% reported a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH and most of them have gone pain free. 

Granted these results are anecdotal and some of the successes could be due to end of cycle or to a lesser extent, the placebo effect... as Michael pointed out.  Nonetheless, the dramatic change in quality of life experienced by the 70% while on this regimen is difficult to explain any other way...

9 CH'ers have reported it didn't work and stopped taking the regimen.  None of them reported having their 25(OH)D levels tested.  4 of these 9 gave up after two weeks.  2 of the 9 may have experienced allergic reactions to one or more of the anti-inflammatory regimen supplements.  The remaining 3 reported other medical problems.  It's possible that some comorbid conditions interfere with this regimen. 

It's comments like this that add more definition to the efficacy not to mention good reason to see your PCP or neurologist about this regimen.  And when you do, have the 25(OH)D and other labs done if you've been on this regimen for more than a month and have not experienced a reduction in the frequency or intensity of your CH.

The remaining 21% are still in the hunt.  They haven't experienced the same favorable response as the others, but they're still taking this regimen... and building 25(OH)D levels...  That implies a margin of uncertainty to the 70% efficacy of ±21% as these CH'ers could go either way...

The simple fact is we don't know if CH'ers in this category are going to respond more completely or not at all to higher 25(OH)D levels.  The good news is the Grassroots Health data appears to give us room to try without fear of experiencing vitamin D3 intoxication...

That said, even though dosing on vitamin D3 at 10,000 I.U./day is far less risky than taking verapamil, depakote (Valproic Acid), or the off-label anticonvulsants frequently prescribed to prevent CH... pushing 25(OH)D levels higher than 200 nmol/L (80 ng/mL) should be done under a physician's supervision with monthly labs for 25(OH)D, Chemistry Panel and CBC.

I think Michael hit on an important point...  Giving our body what it needs to combat CH may be a lot better than taking the more invasive prescription medications with onerous side effects to control the symptoms...

That brings me to the closing point... I'm just an old retired fighter pilot and not a doctor even though I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few years ago...  but I've learned a few things over the years that tend to keep life in balance...  A 70% solution is like low hanging fruit... if it works...  go for it and stick with it...  If you screw up...  unscrew it if possible... 

Moreover, one of life's more enjoyable moments for a pilot is walking out the door saying... "I'm out to launch" like Michael did... then take a sail plane up for a few hours of breathtaking circuits over the Alps... with only the sound of your breath and wind over the canopy in your ears... Awesome...

There's little in life that compares with strapping on an aircraft and slipped the surely bonds... as the prayer goes...  Flying through the sky leaving life's problems behind you on the ground does something to you... 

The joy of flying and sense of freedom it brings is so exhilarating it leaves you with a heightened sense of awareness... In that respect, it's a lot like going pain free from cluster headaches and knowing why... You're in control...

Thanks again and take care.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=12928garland021811-D3vs25_OH_D.pdf (121 KB | 3 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Nov 4th, 2011 at 7:10am
Hi Batch

I think that the remaining 30 % that haven't experienced the same favorable response could be that they still using drugs like prednisolone etc.. One of the actions of vitamin-D is to get rid of synthetic components in the body. Therefor you often see that prednisolone users have very low level of vitamin-D. Studies have also shown that drugs don't have the same affect in the summer period do to higher vitamin-D level.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SD1 on Nov 5th, 2011 at 4:01pm
Hello to all. My previous episode of clusters was back in march/April of this year. I started taking 10,000 d3 and 3600 omega 3. Upon 2 days of doing so, my cluster faded and in less than a week, they were gone. Life was great. On may 31st, my wife gave birth to a beautiful baby girl. I felt like Batch had saved me just in time. Fast forward to last Friday, October the 28th. I woke up at 3am with a very minor kip 1/2. Wasn't even sure if it was a cluster. I was able to lay back down and fell asleep again. The next couple nights, awoke with kip 3/4s. Hit the oxygen and was able to sleep. Came back here to read up to see if anyone else has had the beast returned and noticed that I was missing a big part of of the regimen.  I added calcium citrate with mag and zinc to my daily routine. It was 2 days of doing so, and I only had minor Clusters. Then, at about 12:30 last night, I was hit with an 8/9 for 2 hours. I tried O2 3 times and even took an imitrex. Nothing helped. My wife sat up with me while the baby slept. As soon as the beast left, I was exhausted and wanted to finally sleep, but my daughter woke up and it was my turn to take care of her since my wife had to work in the early morning. Sorry for the ramble. It just makes me nervous to be in full blown season again with a baby that counts on me to be able to provide care. Has anyone else that had prior success have the beast return? Is there something I should be doing that I'm not? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

FYI, 90% of my season have been left side. This time around, right side. Not taking verapamil or anything else.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 6th, 2011 at 5:32pm
SD1,

Thanks for the SITREP...  You've provided a new datum and another dimension to the range of effectiveness this regimen has to prevent CH.  I read all the posts on this regimen I can find.  So far, you're the first that's had a relapse while still taking it.  There's usually a reason for a change in CH patterns like this...  The trick is to determine what it is... then do something about it.

From the information I've collected so far, it's clear there are limits to the effectiveness of this regimen as an anti-inflammatory.  If you compare it with a prednisone taper... we found that during the Cluster Headache Survey 1134 of us took in late 2008, 384 (56.39%) out of 681 rated it as effective.  So far, 70 out of 100 have CH'ers have rated the anti-inflammatory regimen effective.

Increasing the vitamin D3 dose above 10,000 IU/day doesn't appear to increase effectiveness and the data is still inconclusive as to higher doses working faster.

However, adding the Omega 3 Fish oil, another anti-inflammatory, along with the calcium citrate, magnesium and zinc, known vitamin D3 cofactors, did increase the overall effectiveness of vitamin D3.

Several CH'ers found that taking juice high in citric acid along with the calcium citrate helped as well.  As this combination forms a buffer that can elevate arterial pH, it suggests the two mechanisms in play that this regimen can alter to provide relief from CH are neurogenic inflammation and a low arterial pH.

That said, here are a few things I would try in the event of a relapse: 

For starters, I would have my doctor order the lab test for 25(OH)D, or I would go on the Internet and order this test from one of the on-line medical labs. I've found there are essentially two methods for this test you can order.  One requires you to go to a local facility for a blood draw and the other uses a blood spot test kit they mail to you so you can do the collection yourself at home with a small blood spot then mail the dried blood spot back for analysis...

Seeing your doctor for a Chemistry panel and CBC lab test is also a good idea.  These lab tests can provide you and your doctor with calcium and electrolyte levels as well as other indications of potential comorbid conditions that may be interfering with this regimen.

Knowing your actual 25(OH)D level will help.  The experts who have studied thousands of people taking oral vitamin D3 at doses up to 10,000 IU/day, say that serum level concentrations of 25(OH)D stop climbing and level off after 5 months at vitamin D3 doses of 5,000 to 10,000 IU/day. 

They also indicated the mean 25(OH)D level after 5 months at a daily dose of 10,000 IU/day would be 225 nmol/L, (90 ng/mL), or equal to that of a Southern California life guard, but that variations in rates of metabolism and other factors could push this level up to as high as 300-350 nmol/L, (120-140 ng/mL).  They were also emphatic in saying that in all the test data they'd observed for vitamin D3 doses up to 10,000 IU/day, all were safely below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 500-700 nmol/L, (200-280 ng/ml).

The next thing I would try is taking the calcium citrate with lemonade, limeade, or another fruit juice high in citric acid.  If I was already doing this, I would add another one or two of the calcium citrate tablets along with the fruit juice for a week or two in order to increase the buffering effect.

One of the indications that a low arterial pH may be the culprit is oxygen therapy becomes less effective and aborts take much longer when arterial pH is low.  This happens even when using oxygen flow rates that support hyperventilation using proper breathing techniques.

If that didn't work I would try benadryl (diphenhydramine), an antihistamine, in case an allergic reaction was interfering with the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Nov 6th, 2011 at 5:47pm
How does this anti-inflammatory regimen interact with Verapamil?  Calcium citrate?  Dosage times of day to benefit most?  etc.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 7th, 2011 at 5:30am

LasVegas wrote on Nov 6th, 2011 at 5:47pm:
How does this anti-inflammatory regimen interact with Verapamil?  Calcium citrate?  Dosage times of day to benefit most?  etc.


There's the beauty of naturally occurring supplements...  there are very few contraindications...   That said, this is is a good question to ask the physician who prescribed verapamil for your CH...  Your physician will likely say take them at different times to lessen any possible interference... 

A search of available open source information on the supplements in this regimen turned up very little and when you consider the fact that even water can be hazardous if you drink too much...  the phrase "all things in moderation" comes to mind.

The only thing that rang a bell was a moderate contraindication between verapamil and calcium supplements as you pointed out in your question... 

In the process of running this contraindication to ground I found the following on the Mayo Clinic site:

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"When given through an intravenous (IV) line, calcium may decrease the effects of calcium channel blockers, such as nifedipine (Adalat, Procardia), verapamil (Calan, Covera-HS, others), diltiazem (Cardizem, Dilacor XR, others) and others. In fact, IV calcium is used to help reverse calcium channel blocker overdose. There's no evidence that oral calcium supplements interfere with calcium channel blockers. To be safe, check your blood pressure regularly if taking calcium channel blockers and calcium supplements at the same time."

The only other note of caution should go without saying...  See your primary care physician or go to the ER if you think you're having a reaction to any medication including the supplements in this regimen.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Nov 7th, 2011 at 11:42am
Thanks for your reply Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Nov 7th, 2011 at 12:18pm
The only mistake in this treatment is to add calcium citrate. This is usually not necessary if you get enough from your diet, which most do. One of the actions of vitamin D is that you absorb more calcium from your diet and an extra supplements will only increase the risk of developing heart / vascular diseases.  ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SD1 on Nov 7th, 2011 at 12:29pm
Batch, thank you so much for the response.  Ive been on the calcium citrate, mag, zinc for a few days and still waking up with clusters.  I am also inquiring with my Dr. to have Ph levels measured.  I will pick up some lemonade today and see how I do with that.  I was hit last night but was able to abort with O2 only to have it return about 2 hours later in which I took an imitrex and hit the O2 again.  I was good about 30 min later.  One thing that I have noticed is that I am only being attacked at night.  Shortly after I fall asleep. Previous seasons have been both day and night.  During the day, not even a shadow.  And as mentioned before, this time around is on the opposite side of the head for me than normal (right side).  I've been holding off taking verapimil and even the water treatment (both have done well for me in the past) to try to see if I can get the vitamin d regimen dialed in.  Again, thank you and I will keep you posted. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Nov 7th, 2011 at 12:58pm
SD1,
I'm going to chime in here and others may pickup addtl advice.  I have been on this anti-inflammatory regimen for almost 2 months and have not received any benefit to my CH's whatsoever.  In fact my attacks have gotten more intense and more frequent in these past few weeks.

Even though I have not received CH benefit from this regimen, I still swallow my 13 tablets on a daily basis in hopes it helps my CH's.  Regardless of CH's, this regimen is natural and healthy for other areas of my body.

I too had the same thought as you....hold off on the Verapamil in hopes this natural anti-inflammatory regimen kicks in fast as reported beneficial to others. 

For me, this was a torturous mistake!  I am in week 13 of a very high cycle (8+ attacks daily) and started Verapamil last week which I understand may take 2 weeks to hopefully become effective.  I waited to start the Verapamil as I would prefer something non-harmful such as this regimen opposed to Verapamil which does have medical risks/side effects to the user.  I'm sure you can easily do the math, I have regretfully gambled on this regimen, holding off on Verapamil, while being tortured many times daily for many weeks in hopes this regimen would help. 

My experience gambling on this regimen, holding off on preventative meds such as Verapamil, has cost me thousands of dollars of time away from work, hostile conflicts with my boss and potentially being terminated from my job, a loss of 4+ yr relationship with girlfriend, countless nights sleep, public humiliation, unproductivity in every aspect of my life and extreme emotional stress to dear family.

Personally, I would not wait on holding off a transitional med (Prednisone taper) and preventative treatment (Verapamil, Lithium, etc) for your CH's in hopes this new regimen may/not work for you. 

What if you are like me and the regimen is not effective?  Then you just prolonged the torture by the DRAGON. 

The decision is obviously yours, but this is my unfortunate experience hoping this new regimen would be effective.  I personally could not endure the torture and be patient any longer for something that may/not be effective, and therefor started Verapamil which there is no guarantee this will be effective either, but has helped me in past cycles and has proven to be the best line of preventative defense for most CH sufferers.

Your night time attacks by the DRAGON are common because your co2 levels rise as you relax and go into REM sleep about an hour or two after you fall asleep. 

O2 therapy when used properly-hyperventilating with a NON-rebreather mask at high flow rates (25--40 lpm) should be of assistance with your night time attacks. 

O2 therapy requires ALOT of patience and ALOT of effort, particularly in middle of the night when you are very tired.

However, the alternative abort is a triptan med such as Imitrex injections which should abort the attack much faster than o2 without the time and effort, yet will most likely result in rebound attacks an hour later.

I am just one of few that this regimen has not proven beneficial, and it may very well provide relief for you as it has proven very effective for others, there is always hope!

That's my 2 cents...Good Luck!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Nov 7th, 2011 at 2:01pm
Hi LasVegas

For some the  anti-inflammatory regimen can take up to 6 months to work. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Nov 7th, 2011 at 2:07pm

nhs wrote on Nov 7th, 2011 at 2:01pm:
Hi LasVegas

For some the  anti-inflammatory regimen can take up to 6 months to work. 


I'm not advocating not trying it, just sayin when one is cycle, might not want to gamble on this alone!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 7th, 2011 at 2:40pm
SD1,

The night CH attacks are a classic indication of low arterial pH and low oxygen levels.  When we sleep most of us go through a two hour cycle reaching REM sleep around an hour after falling asleep.  Not so strangely, that's when the CH hit...  The simple reason... and there are others...  is this, during sleep, our respiration rate drops to it's lowest with the smallest tidal volume of inspired breath... This results in less oxygen and a slight buildup of CO2.  For CH'ers, this is the perfect storm.

As CO2 disassociates into carbonic acid in blood serum...  this shifts the pH of arterial blood lower.  To make matters worse, a low arterial pH also limits the ability of hemoglobin to transport oxygen...  If you toss in a dietary condition or a comorbid condition that results in lower arterial pH, you're solidly behind the 8 ball and will get hammered.

Increasing the calcium citrate by a tablet or two and washing it down with lemonade will help elevate arterial pH.  There are alkalizing diets that will help as well.  See the chart for alkaline forming food types in the table at the end of the following link:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

As far as going in to see your doctor for a pH test...  it's a single shot in the dark that will only flag pH levels outside the reference range (7.35-7.45).  Our pH will flux widely throughout the day and from day to day. 

The best way I've found to track my pH is at home was using pH test strips to measure saliva pH.  It tends to parallel arterial pH but lags behind changes in arterial pH by 10 to 15 minutes, the time it takes the salivary glands to produce saliva from the blood stream.

I've an excel worksheet that will help track your daily average saliva pH by taking a measurement three times a day, morning before breakfast, around noon before lunch, and in the evening prior to going to bed.  When you average these three measurements you'll have a daily average.  Shoot me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to you.

The excel worksheet also has an entry for a pH measurement at the start of a CH attack and 5 minutes after completing an abort with oxygen therapy.  If you track your pH for a couple weeks you notice that as the daily average drops, the frequency of your CH will go up.  You'll also notice an increase in saliva pH (more alkaline) 5 minutes after you complete oxygen therapy.  All these entries will plot on another tab and will look like the following chart:

This chart covers a two week period where I took the three saliva pH measurements each day for my daily average saliva pH and also the pH changes associated with the first CH attack of the evening.

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The green line was my daily average pH.  The red line and dots represent saliva pH at start of a CH and the blue line and dots represent saliva pH 5 minutes after completing oxygen therapy.  The percentage figures represent the pulse oximetry readings taken upon waking with a CH and 5 minutes after completing oxygen therapy.

The link to PHION for the test strips follows:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Nov 7th, 2011 at 4:08pm
Hi Batch

Very interesting reading about the PH level and CH attach. One of the quickest ways to raise PH is to take a teaspoon of baking soda in a glass of water. Have you ever tried this doing a CH period?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 7th, 2011 at 6:38pm
No, but I chewed through a half bottle of Tums one night trying to get my stomach pH and calcium levels up after running out of oxygen... 

Calcium carbonate is nearly as good as sodium carbonate as an antacid and tastes a lot better...  I've found the buffering properties of calcium citrate and citric acid from lemonade last longer...

I was one hurt'en scooter that night after falling asleep following a particularly onerous hit only to wake up two hours later with another equally nasty hit in progress to find the cylinder pressure gauge on zero... 

I'd pulled a Delta Sierra and fallen asleep with the cylinder supply valve open with the regulator set at 25 liters/minute... 

I switched from 8 E-size to three M-size cylinders on hand the following morning and picked up a demand valve later that week.  A demand valve is great in that respect...  no suck... no flow...

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lsarver3808 on Nov 9th, 2011 at 7:56am
Going to say this is not working for my husband.  Seemed it was making them lighter but he is now having the worst ever.
:(  I SOOOOO wish there were something I could do to help him!  This is horrible!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by anthony g on Nov 9th, 2011 at 8:30pm
I have been doin vit d3 10,000 iu and fishoil for well over a year. I dont really know if it helps or not. I still have headaches but perhaps they would be more frequent and intense if I havent been on the regime. The whole headache thing is so confusing and what works may not work for the next person. That being said there is certainly no damage from this regime and I will continue to do it. It hads helped alot of people on the board just wanted to give my input.
anthony

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Nov 25th, 2011 at 7:14pm
I had an attack today. It came from nowhere manifested itself as a mini-version of a cluster headache attack.  It lasted for less than 15 minutes.  I've had a few of those in the recent months, and I love them.  Not even sure if the correct term is 'shadow'. Whatever - these tiny things of no consequence is what is left of the mighty cluster beast that ravaged my life at will.  I believe it's more than a month since this last reminder, and much more than a month since the last real CH attack.

In fact I'm about to cross the 150 days line. It's almost 5 months since I started eating D-vit, magnesium, fish oil, calcium and zinc every day - the Batch regimen.  So yes, I love my tiny CH-attacks.  They remind me that I am still a CH sufferer, I'm still a chronic, it's not gone. But i can compare the last 5 months with 5 months preceding them. Take 30.jan to 30.jun Many of these ~150 days where true evil.  In two of those days I had more encounters with  You-Know-Who that I've had the last ~150 days. And that's quantity, as for quality: I've had 6 real attacks,. Non of them has justified a Imitrex injection but have been bearable with Red Bull,

I know it is still to early to  conclude, and I've read the remarks from experienced folks about the Beasts ability to morph.

But so far, so good - that is: SO GOOD.  And frankly, right now those insane clusternights seem unreal, like fiction

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Nov 26th, 2011 at 12:14pm

Zeitgeist wrote on Nov 25th, 2011 at 7:14pm:
I had an attack today. It came from nowhere manifested itself as a mini-version of a cluster headache attack.  It lasted for less than 15 minutes.  I've had a few of those in the recent months, and I love them.  Not even sure if the correct term is 'shadow'. Whatever - these tiny things of no consequence is what is left of the mighty cluster beast that ravaged my life at will.  I believe it's more than a month since this last reminder, and much more than a month since the last real CH attack.

In fact I'm about to cross the 150 days line. It's almost 5 months since I started eating D-vit, magnesium, fish oil, calcium and zinc every day - the Batch regimen.  So yes, I love my tiny CH-attacks.  They remind me that I am still a CH sufferer, I'm still a chronic, it's not gone. But i can compare the last 5 months with 5 months preceding them. Take 30.jan to 30.jun Many of these ~150 days where true evil.  In two of those days I had more encounters with  You-Know-Who that I've had the last ~150 days. And that's quantity, as for quality: I've had 6 real attacks,. Non of them has justified a Imitrex injection but have been bearable with Red Bull,

I know it is still to early to  conclude, and I've read the remarks from experienced folks about the Beasts ability to morph.

But so far, so good - that is: SO GOOD.  And frankly, right now those insane clusternights seem unreal, like fiction


I don't know if I should laugh or cry when you call a <15 minute cluster a mini-cluster and you are grateful for them. When I read posts on this board, and I see how bad 'true' cluster headache sufferer's have it, I my heart breaks for you. Nearly all my clusters are about 15 minutes long. The rare ones are 30 minutes long, or longer. When they first started, 5 years ago, they were 30-45 minutes, and sometimes longer. I know this might put me into the SUNCT category, but other characteristics about my clusters define them as clusters. My doc and I struggle to put a clear name on them, and the closest we come to is cluster. But short clusters.

The downside is, abortives don't work because there isn't time for them to take affect. But I digress.

I'm about 2 weeks away from being able to start on Batch's Regimen. I had tried it back in May, but the Vitamin D3 clashed heavily with the Topiramate I'm taking, turning my urine to fire. But in 2 weeks I'll be off Topiramate, and able to try the anti-inflammatory regimen properly.

Batch, or someone, could you post a very clear, concise recipe of what to take? I know the basic ingredients are Vitamin D3 (10,000 IU) Omega3 (3,000-4,000mg) zinc and magnesium. But I've never been clear on how much zinc and magnesium. Also, if it has changed in the year it has been around.

I'm chronic, and get clusters every 2-3 days on average. So if this works, and it seemed to last time I tried it, I'll know pretty quickly. I've had about 220 attacks so far this year.

Thanks,
Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Tate on Nov 26th, 2011 at 12:29pm
Hi Renee,

I am on Topamax, but am planning on starting the Batch plan. Do you know if the experience you had with D3 and top is common?

Thanks and good luck to you!

Tate

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Nov 26th, 2011 at 2:49pm

Tate wrote on Nov 26th, 2011 at 12:29pm:
Hi Renee,

I am on Topamax, but am planning on starting the Batch plan. Do you know if the experience you had with D3 and top is common?

Thanks and good luck to you!

Tate



I don't know if it is common, when I mentioned it to my GP, she didn't know why my urine reacted that way. But, when I mentioned it to my neuro, he knew right away. 'Oh yeah, that would be the Topriamate reacting with the D3.'

If I built up the D3 slowly, it wasn't so bad. And even if I jumped up to 10,000IU, after 4 days, the burning would pass. But, if I missed even a single dose, it would take another 4 days to adjust again. And, it didn't burn when I went wee, but afterwards, after I left the toilet for about 5-10 minutes. Was really weird. It helped to use a wet wipe and not just TP.

My problem was, I was under a lot of stress at the time during a tough project, so had a lot going on, and just didn't need that on top of everything else. But now I'm in a better place.

xx

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Nov 26th, 2011 at 3:27pm
Hi Renée

What I meant with "mini cluster" goes for both intensity of pain and time. What I experience is undoubtedly a CH attack, but it is scaled down. 

The Batch regimen consists of two parts

1) D3 and co-factors

  • 5-10.000 IU vitamin D3
  • 500 mg magnesium (must be more if magnesium oxide is used due to very low bio availability)
  • 15-25 mg Zinc


2) Anti-inflammatory and PH regulating

  • 3000 mg Omega 3 fish oil
  • 500 mg Calcium (calcium citrate is what Batch uses)


Of those D3 and magnesium is the most important. If possible, take magnesium i two doses.

Rune


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Nov 26th, 2011 at 4:56pm
Thank you. That is an excellent summary! I can work from that. Didn't know about the calcium, and didn't know the Magnesium was so important.

Right, I have a bit of shopping to do.

My clusters are short, but often ultra intense. In fact, I just had a 30 minute one I would class as a 10 on a scale of 10 (I don't use the KIP scale, but that probably works here). It's now an hour or so later, and I'm still recovering, eyes watering, and a total mess. The same is often true for the ones that last 5, 10 or 15 minutes. They can be really short, but knock me for a 6 and take a couple hours to recover from.

And I can have anywhere from 1-5 in a day, and I think the most I've had in 48 hours is about 12. Although, 1-3 is normal. Well, nothing is 'normal' for the demon. Just last quarter's routine.

Renee

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Tate on Nov 26th, 2011 at 5:11pm
I have been slowly moving towards adopting the PH Balance diet...all about acid and alkaline....what we are talking about here with the supplements. Have any of you tried this diet or the machine that balances your drinking water?

Tate :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 26th, 2011 at 8:22pm
Hey ZG,

Another great update...  Thank you for telling us more about your experience with this regimen after 150 days.  This is important information for us.  So far, I've not seen any reports of a relapse after going pain free for more than a few days.  I've been on the anti-inflammatory regimen for over 13 months and have been pain free of my CH since the second day.

I've been in contact with the folks at GrassRootsHealth regarding their D*action Project where 3667 people volunteered to have their 25(OH)D levels tested every 6 months and fill out a questionnaire with each test.  Many of these people have been participating since the project started in 2008.

As you can see from the results plotted below tracking 25(OH)D serum levels vs vitamin D3 dose, none of the participants in this project have had any tests come back even close to the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL while dosing up to and including 10,000 IU/day.

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I've been in contact with Mia Ferreira, the Outreach Program Director at GrassRootsHealth, and she indicated there have been 436 individual participants who have completed at least one test/questionnaire indicating an intake of 10,000 IU/day or more. Of them, there have been 47 participants with at least two consecutive tests indicating an intake of 10,000 IU/day.  Again, none of the participants dosing on vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day have reported their 25(OH)D levels anywhere near the 200 ng/mL lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication.

I've also been in contact with Dr. Robert Heaney, MD.  He completed a study of three groups dosing on vitamin D3 at 1,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU/day and a control group that didn't take any supplemental vitamin D3 over a five month period tracking their serum 25(OH)D levels periodically.  His results are illustrated in Figure-1 in the attachment below.  His study basically shows that 25(OH)D levels reach an equilibrium and plateau by the end of the 5th to 6th month.

Moreover, for the group dosing at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, the mean 25(OH)D level reached after 150 days was 90 ng/mL, (225 nmol/L).  For some of the CH'ers and their physicians who are concerned about 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 being a high dose, this should be comforting information. 

Of course the best thing to do is to see your PCP or neurologist to have this lab test done 30 to 60 days after starting this regimen to be sure where you stand.

However, you need to be aware that although the reference range for this test is fairly standard among the medical diagnostic labs, these reference ranges are not calibrated for cluster headaches and they are also listed in two different units of measure, ng/mL here in the US and nmol/L in the EU and elsewhere... 

For example, one CH'er who had been on this regimen for over thirty days without any relief, had this test done and the results are shown below:

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He figured because the lab test said his 25(OH)D level was normal, the anti-inflammatory regimen wasn't going to work for him...

From the data on 25(OH)D levels we've collected so far, it appears several CH'ers with active CH are testing at 40 to 42 ng/mL, (100 nmol/L) and that of CH'ers who have gone pain free on this regimen and had this test, none are below 60 ng/mL, (150 nmol/L).

It also appears the average response time to a significant reduction in CH frequency and severity or going pain free is near the end of the second week with some going pain free in as little as two days after starting this regimen and others taking upwards of a month for a significant response.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Am_J_Clin_Nutr-2003-Heaney-204-10.pdf (134 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Nov 27th, 2011 at 8:39am
Renee

What you tell about your CHs is terrible.  I really hope this regimen works for you!

I cannot explain all the interactions between vitamin d and magnesium, but I've understood they are many and significant.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Nov 29th, 2011 at 2:19pm

Tate wrote on Nov 26th, 2011 at 5:11pm:
I have been slowly moving towards adopting the PH Balance diet...all about acid and alkaline....what we are talking about here with the supplements. Have any of you tried this diet or the machine that balances your drinking water?

Tate :)


Hi Tate,

I don't know about a machine that balances your drinking water. I add Liquid Chlorophyll to my water, usually about once a day, although my nutritionist says I should probably do it more often. I did a PH test a couple months ago and I scored pretty high on the acid side of things. A result probably of the high dose of Topiramate and poor diet I was on. Have switched (mostly) to a Blood Type diet, which has helped me a lot. The Liquid Chlorophyll is designed to balance the PH, and according to my nutritionist friend, cancer and other bad things can't live in a body that has a well balanced PH level.

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Nov 29th, 2011 at 2:27pm

Zeitgeist wrote on Nov 27th, 2011 at 8:39am:
Renee

What you tell about your CHs is terrible.  I really hope this regimen works for you!

I cannot explain all the interactions between vitamin d and magnesium, but I've understood they are many and significant.


Thanks zg. It is my last hope.

I'm single, and although I have many close friends, I rarely have anyone in my life around when I have clusters. And I'm really finding it to much to bear on my own. I give myself about another year if it keeps on like this and nothing changes in my circumstances.

So, not much pressure on Batch's formula or anything.

Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Tate on Nov 29th, 2011 at 2:50pm
Renee,

Writing to you from the waiting room of a new dr! I too just started the oxygen chlorophyll drops in my water. The green drops, right? We shall see what all of this does. I have completely changed my diet, as I said... Don't know know if that will have any effect. Trying to stay away from any foods on the acid side of things...

I hear your frustration and feel your pain. Please know that many are looking out for you. :)

Let me know how things are going!

Do you have the strips to check your ph levels??

Tate! :) :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ReneeM on Nov 29th, 2011 at 3:02pm

Tate wrote on Nov 29th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
Renee,

Writing to you from the waiting room of a new dr! I too just started the oxygen chlorophyll drops in my water. The green drops, right? We shall see what all of this does. I have completely changed my diet, as I said... Don't know know if that will have any effect. Trying to stay away from any foods on the acid side of things...

I hear your frustration and feel your pain. Please know that many are looking out for you. :)

Let me know how things are going!

Do you have the strips to check your ph levels??

Tate! :) :)


Thanks, and I hope the new doc works out. Always worth taking the time to find the perfect doctor.

My LC is black actually, or a very, very dark blue maybe. Has a peppermint taste. I don't have the strips, but my nutritionist is an acquaintance, and I'm ghost writing his autobiography. So getting my PH checked from time to time isn't a problem. 

xx Renée

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SD1 on Nov 29th, 2011 at 3:19pm
Hello to all.  just a quick update.  im still taking the regime of 10k d3, 3600 omega 3 and calcium citrate/mag/d3 daily along with a tall glass of lemonade.  still getting slammed since 10/28. getting hit daily with the last few being kip 9/10's!!!  i started taking verap 400 daily about 2 weeks ago and it dosent seem to help at all. oxygen at flow rate of 25 has not been working even using the hyperventalating method.  my only savior has been imitrex injections which have worked every time.  somthing is really different about this season vs my previous.  like mentioned before, the beast has been hitting me on the right side vs the left side which has only happened one other time in my 12 years of clusters.

batch, what are your thoughts on me stoping the regime for about a week and starting it again to kind of reset things?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Tate on Nov 29th, 2011 at 5:33pm
Renee,

Your drops sound WAAAY better than mine. :) Mine are tasteless for the most part, but ya kind of have to knock it back.

So, you are a writer? Cool!

The doctor was amazing. I really liked him. I am going to post about it as soon as I can figure out the appropriate spot.

Hope you are feeling better.

Tate :) :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 2nd, 2011 at 3:45am
SD1,

Sorry for the delay in responding...  We were on travel for Thanksgiving and didn't get home until late Tuesday evening/early Wednesday a.m.  Have been trying to catch up ever since...

Hang in there on the anti-inflammatory regimen... I've sent you a PM.  You may need to titrate up on the vitamin D3 dose...  Discuss it with your PCP/neurologist and/or shoot me a reply if you have questions. 

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 7th, 2011 at 2:47am
Day 1 of Batch's Batch of vitamins. 8-)
I had a hard time finding the "right" ones to buy. The Walmart "Pharmacist" wasn't that helpful unfortunately. He told me that Calcium-Citrate and Calcium-Carbonate are essentially the same thing, and that the Citrates are 'Salts', but even sounded doubtful of that.

I'd like to do my part and list actual products available at most North American pharmacies. So that if someone with little to no knowledge of Vitamins, like myself, wants to give this a shot, they wont have to educate themselves as much, or to begin with.

I got all these at Walmart for $45.

I learned that its not so much the 1,000 mg of fish oil that is pertinent, but rather the EPA and DHA Acids. For example my bottle lists 500 mg of Omega 3 Fatty acids. Providing 300 mg of EPA and 200 of DHA. (Derived from 1,000 mg of fish oil.
Jamieson Omega Omega-3 Select 1, 000 mg 150 capsules
$19

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I got these Calcium Citrate for $13.67
Calcium Citrate 300 mg/200 IU   High Absorption  180 Tablets
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I also got some
One A Day Men Iron Free with More Selenium Advanced Multi Vitamin 90 Tablets
Cause I seen on this thread that someones Dr recommended Selenium in addition.

$11
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I had several options, but I just got what Batch listed. For example theres Calcium from multiple sources, like Citrate, carbonate and a couple others. Also others that don't list "Vitamin D3" just Vitamin D.
Calcium Carbonate with Vitamin D, 500 mg/200 IU
or
Calcium Vitamin D3, Easy Absorption, Krebs Cycle
or see all the Calcium vitamins I had to chose from here
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Even the Omega 3's were tough to chose from. Regular stregth, extra, Super, yet the mg's seem to be misleading.

I guess I'll have to get educated, and perhaps someone can help me out. Although I'll give Google a work out, and read till my eyes bleed and I get so well-read that I end up more confused then I am now. lol

Citrate, Carbonate, ferate, Omega 3, Omega 3 with fish oil, Fish oil only, 300mg/200 IU, 500 mg/200 IU, mcg, ect, ect.  :o

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Fingers Crossed, and Thanks for all your work Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Dec 7th, 2011 at 7:02pm

Batch wrote on Nov 26th, 2011 at 8:22pm:
  His study basically shows that 25(OH)D levels reach an equilibrium and plateau by the end of the 5th to 6th month.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Interesting; I started my regime of Mag/Calc/D3 on Friday 14,April 2006 but continued to get hit off & on until Monday, 2 October 2006 (Six months to the day almost).
I then had a 297 day break before I hit a high cycle again.

Hmm coincidental, I think not maybe.

Cheers
Barry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 7th, 2011 at 8:36pm
Hey PlayDoh,

Glad you're giving the anti-inflammatory regimen a try.  By tomorrow you may be doing even better.  Response times for the anti-inflammatory regimen range from two days to three weeks with a few trickling in after four weeks.  The majority go pain free by the end of the second week.

For reference, calcium citrate is the preferred salt of calcium.  It's easier on the gut than calcium carbonate which needs to be taken with food.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 8th, 2011 at 2:13pm
So I've been getting hit 4 -5 times during the night like Kip 7-9 the past 2 weeks, and the odd one during the day. I started the regiem at dinner time on the 6th. That night I got 2 kip 1-2's and 1 kip 3-4.

Tonight I got 0!
PF and I feel great. Although I have a pretty painful ear infection at the moment, but Advil does the job for that.

I swear if you were next to me Batch, I'd kiss you.  :-* lol

I was thinking that if you told me 5 - 10 years ago that Oxygen and Vitamins would be great treatments for these "headaches" I would have laughed in your face. Yet I'm SO thankful. I have a heart condition and I can't handle the heavy drugs like Imatrex.

I'll keep everyone up to speed, and I'll be spreading the word.

For what its worth, I had success with Mushrooms the past year, but after taking some 3 weeks ago, my nightly kip 3's instantly jacked up to kip 9's. I even tried them again a week later and it didn't do anything.

Even for one day PF, Thank you Thank you Thank you Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Dec 9th, 2011 at 2:53pm
Hi all!
I've had a look at my  blood values again.  Vitamin D (25-OH) is now at 271 nmol/L (). That's slightly down from 295 two months ago. But not as much as I'd believed as I reduced the intake to 7500 IU from Oct 1st.

Anyway, after having been extremely loyal to this regimen for 160 days, it seems "to much vitamin D." is among the least of my worries. In the last 50-60 days I have had no new instances of nocturnal CHs, only some lighter "reminders".

Above all I hope this regimen prove helpful for the lot of you.  It really troubles me that it obviously isn't for some +- 25%. We really do lack the scientific insights to explain this. Some day I guess we'll hear a horse coming in the distance.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 9th, 2011 at 2:53pm
Hey Playdoh,

Wonderful news!  We're all very happy for you.  The way I see it after 14 months on this regimen...  you've got two choices...  Come off the anti-inflammatory regimen when you think your cycle is over and take your chances...  or... play the odds and stay on this regimen for the rest of your life like me...  If you do this, the odds are 70% in your favor that the next cycle will never happen and you'll be PF for life...  not to mention in a lot better health. 

Check with your cardiologist for a round of tests including the lab test for 25(OH)D, the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3, after you've been on this regimen for at least a month... 

By then you'll notice you have a lot more energy and will feel the urge to be more active...  See your cardiologist before you follow that urge...  and when you've done that and start to be more active, you might experience another pleasant surprise like I did and start shedding pounds and inches from the waist line.

Take care my friend.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Eric Hanson on Dec 9th, 2011 at 9:31pm
Batch,

I read a post on CB's web site with a listing of the ingredients for anti inflamatory regimine.

Here is the link:
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Unfortunatly I started the D3 and Fish Oil along with a 120 MG Pred Taper, 10 MG of melatonin, and lithium.  Irregardless of what is to blame for the immediate seccation of my headaches as I was beginning week 3 of the worst bout I have ever had.  3 to 4 kip 8-9s per day. 

I have been pain free for 5 days now and if continued this will be the shortest CH bout I have ever had.  The last one going strong for nearly 4 months.

This is what the list indicates I should take:  Please correct me if I am wrong. 

10000 I/U per day of D3
2500 - 3000 MG/Day Fish Oil
400 MG/Day Magnesium
Calcium Citrate 500 MG/Day
Zinc in the Calcium 10 MG/Day

The recipe also calls for Vitamin K @ 120 mcg/day.  That is the one that I am unable to find at my local pharmacy. 

Is the Vitamin K a critical piece of the puzzle and what is the best place to purchase it?  The local Wallgreens does not carry any form of vitamin K. 

Please let me know what you think.  And thanks for all you do on this board and beyond.

Eric

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Dec 10th, 2011 at 11:16am
Eric,

Try swansonvitamins.com  I started with them several years ago when I was using Kudzu.  They give awesome service and will price match anything on the web.  I found their prices to normally be below anything I could find at WalMart.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 10th, 2011 at 12:54pm
Hey Eric,

Thank you for passing your results after taking the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Given the typical response times and efficacy for this regimen compared to that of prednisone, I'd say the odds are 70:50 the anti-inflammatory regimen is responsible for the cessation of your CH.

I hope you find as my wife and I do...  that this is a daily regimen for life...  Lots of good health benefits and you'll feel a lot better too with more energy each day.  You'll also find you sleep a lot better too.

Regarding the more succinct list of supplements posted on ClusterBusters for the anti-inflammatory regimen, I've been remiss...  I sent them the updated list and dosing schedules but have yet to post it here at CH.com.

I've been working on an update to this regimen complete with an overall treatment protocol for CH and dosing strategies...  Unfortunately this takes time as I'm vetting the final version through several experts in vitamin D3 therapy and among neurologists who specialize in treating CH'ers.

What I can say at this point is the supplements and daily doses in your post are correct if you add Boron.  Vitamin K (actually vitamin K2) is one of the cofactors required in vitamin D3 therapy along with magnesium, zinc and boron.

If you use the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate from Costco, you get all of the macrominerals and micro minerals you need with the exception of enough magnesium.  Two of the Kirkland brand calcium citrate tablets contain the following assay:

500 mg.  Calcium
800 I.U.  Vitamin D3
  60 mg.  Magnesium
  10 mg.  Zinc
    1 mg.  Copper
    1 mg.  Manganese
    1 mg.  Boron

The Vitamin D Council suggests 500 mg. magnesium/day so if you use the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate, pick up a bottle of magnesium citrate or magnesium gluconate and take 400 mg/day.

That brings the total list of supplements and doses used in this regimen up to the following:

Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Basic Dosing Guide:

Disclaimer:  The following Anti-Inflammatory Regimen, treatment protocol and dosing guide to prevent cluster headaches are provided for information purposes only.  Discuss them with your primary care physician (PCP) or neurologist whoever is most aware of your overall medical health and other prescribed medications before starting this regimen.

If possible, have your PCP or neurologist schedule a lab test for 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D before starting this regimen.  This is the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3.  The normal reference range for 25(OH)D in the US is 30-100 ng/mL, (50-200 nmol/L in the EU, UK and elsewhere.  However, CH'ers presenting with active CH have had test results for 25(OH)D come back as high as 43 ng/mL, (107 nmol/L).

Based on reports from CH'ers who have had a favorable response to this regimen, the optimum therapeutic target range for 25(OH)D for CH'ers to remain pain free appears to be 60 to 90 ng/mL, (150 to 225 nmol/L).  It can also take as long as three months to elevate 25(OH)D levels from 20 ng/mL to 60 ng/mL (50 to 150 nmol/L) at a daily dose of 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3.  Some CH'ers may need a higher daily dose of vitamin D3

Omega 3 Fish Oil - 2000 to 2400 mg/day (EPA 360 mg/day, DHA 240 mg/day)
Vitamin D3 *      - 10,000 IU/day
Calcium **         - 500 mg/day (calcium citrate preferred)
Magnesium         - 400 mg/day (magnesium citrate or magnesium gluconate)
Vitamin K ***     - 120 mcg/day
zinc                    -   10 mg/day
Boron                 -     1 mg/day   

This regimen can be taken any time of the day, but it's best taken in the morning with an 8-oz glass of lemonade, limeade, or any fruit juice high in citric acid sweetened with with a little honey.  Honey is a natural source of Boron, which is listed as one of the "cofactors" along with magnesium, vitamin K and zinc. 

If you miss a dose, take it asap.  It's important to keep building 25(OH)D levels and to keep them in the therapeutic range.

The list of micronutrients, macrominerals and micro minerals in this regimen are all important and each plays a role in making this CH preventative as effective as it is.

For example, the 500 mg. calcium in this regimen is essential as vitamin D3 pulls calcium from the gut and puts it into solution in the blood.  If you supplement with vitamin D3 and the total intake of calcium from all sources is not sufficient, the vitamin D3 will start leeching calcium from the bones...  Hmmm...  that's not good...

With the exception of vitamin D3 and Omega 3 Fish Oil, nearly all of the
remaining supplements are readily available in sufficient quantity in a good healthy well balanced diet of meat, fish, poltry, green veggies, cheese, oysters and honey.

For example, you can get your daily vitamin K requirements from green veggies or a slice of good Swiss cheese.   You'll get all the boron you need from a teaspoon of honey and a half dozen oysters, preferably raw on the half-shell with a dash of hot sauce... will give you a week's supply of zinc.

The Vitamin D Council indicates these cofactors help in metabolizing vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D and the calcium supplements aid in maintaining calcium homeostasis.  The calcium citrate and citric acid in the lemon juice or lime juice also combine to form a buffer in the stomach that can help elevate arterial pH which aids in stimulating vasoconstriction in and around the trigeminal nerves.  See the following link at the Vitamin D Council for an explanation of the vitamin D cofactors and their natural sources:

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Notes:
(1)  Medication Interactions and Contraindications:
     * Reactions to vitamin D3 are very rare as skin exposed to the UVB in direct sunlight produces vitamin D3 naturally.  However, if you are allergic to sunlight, do not start this regimen without contacting your PCP or neurologist first.  If you experience a reaction to this regimen including and not limited to, an upset stomach for more than a day, swelling in and around the mouth or face, or an obvious allergic reaction, discontinue the entire regimen and contact your family physician.

  **  If you are presently taking verapamil as a cluster headache preventative or for a heart condition, studies have shown that after repetitive dosing with verapamil, the serum half-life can be in a range from 4.5 to 12 hours.  Other studies indicated calcium supplements interfere with calcium channel blockers like verapamil.  Calcium gluconate is also used to treat reactions to oral verapamil.  Accordingly, in order to minimize a possible interaction with calcium that may limit verapamil effectiveness, separate the verapamil and calcium doses by at least 8 hours.  Again, discus this regimen with your PCP, neurologist, or cardiologist to work out an optimum dosing schedule.

   *** If you are presently using blood-thinning drugs such as Warfarin or Coumadin for cluster headache or for a heart condition, vitamin K is generally contraindicated.  However, studies have found vitamin K2 to be an effective stabilizer in anticoagulant therapy, proving beneficial in situations of over-anticoagulation or when the response to therapy has been variable.  See your PCP, neurologist, and or cardiologist before starting this regimen if you are presently taking blood-thinning drugs.

(2)  Safety: This regimen is safe and well tolerated with many potential healthy benefits.  However, some physicians and CH'ers may be concerned about the apparent "high" dose of vitamin D3.  There are several studies that have clinically proven that the skin of a fair skinned adult clad in a bathing suit without sun block and exposed to the sun's UVB at midday, can generate 10,000 I.U. vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) in as little as 15 minutes.  A recent study based on data from the GrassRootsHealth project of 3667 people taking vitamin D3 at various doses concluded:  Universal intake of up to 40,000 IU vitamin D per day is unlikely to result in vitamin D toxicity.

The folks at GrassRootsHealth START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE recently published the results of their D*action Project where 3667 people have been taking vitamin D3 and having their 25(OH)D levels tested every 6 months since 2008.  Participants also fill out questionnaires with each lab test to capture the essential demographic and epidemiological information.  439 of these D*action project participants reported taking vitamin D3 at doses up to and including 10,000 IU/day.  43 participants have had two or more consecutive tests for 25(OH)D while dosing on vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day.

As you can see in the graph illustrated on the GrassrootsHealth home page shown below, none of the 3667 participants dosing at 10,000 IU/day or less had lab tests for 25(OH)D anywhere near the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL, (500 nmol/L).

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I've attached a study titled: Vitamin D Supplement Doses and Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D in the Range Associated with Cancer Prevention by Garland et. al, that's based on the GrassRootsHealth D*action Project data as further proof that long term use of vitamin D3 at doses as high as 10,000 IU/day are very safe.

(3) Efficacy and Response Time.  70 out of the 100 CH'ers (both episodic and chronic), who have tried this regimen over the last year have had a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH and better than 90% of them have gone pain free.  Typical response times to this regimen range from two days to three full weeks with the majority occurring by the end of the second week.

As this regimen has many other health benefits beyond being 70% effective as a cluster headache preventative, it's best to stay on it as long as possible if not for life...  There have been a handful of CH'ers who took over a month to respond to this regimen and several clinical studies have shown it can take upwards of three months to elevate 25(OH)D levels from 20 ng/mL to 60 ng/mL, (50 to 150 nmol/L).  Moreover, chronic CH'ers who stop taking this regimen after an extended period of use greater than six months, may experience a relapse with a resumption of CH in as little as a week...

(4) Mechanism of Action.  The precise mechanism of action of the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing cluster headache remains to be fully determined, but it includes the following two possible mechanisms:

Omega 3 Fish Oil and vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) are well documented as having anti-inflammatory properties.  It is possible these properties counteract the neurogenic inflammation present in the cluster headache syndrome.

In addition, at least two studies have pointed to the capacity of vitamin D3 to suppress or down regulate calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP), both of which are elevated during a cluster headache.

(5) Comorbidities:  Some comorbid conditions may interfere with the capacity of the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent CH.  Some of these medical conditions include but are not limited to: cardiac, thyroid, renal, hepatic, and pancreatic insufficiencies. Sub-clinical allergic reactions and sinusitis are also suspect.  If you presently suffer from one or more of  these medical conditions, work with your PCP to resolve them as this may increase the likelihood of favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=607_full.pdf (160 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 10th, 2011 at 5:18pm
I swear you deserve a Nobel prize for all of this work. I think you missed your calling as a Dr.
Thanks for all of the info, should take me a week to digest it all. 8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Dec 10th, 2011 at 6:59pm
Hi

The calcium is not needed in the regimen if you are eating/drinking milk products. If your diet intake is below 500 mg it's essential to take some calcium supplement otherwise it's not. Most people (90%+) get enough.

The calcium lie:
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 69Strat on Dec 10th, 2011 at 10:37pm
Two weeks in on Batch's formula. 1st week, not much. This week, distinct reduction in intensity. 8-9 down to 3-5ish. Also upped verap to 480mg and lithium to 900mg. Insurance company pays for shots, but no oxygen. They said clusters aren't a recognized condition. Why they cover shots is beyond me. I was going to argue the cost benefit of oxygen, but am afraid they'll pull the shots if they figure it out.

Chronic since 2004. I was high cycle since Oct. HA every 2-3 hours, 24/7. Worst ever. Even the daytime wasn't spared, which was unusual. Now I see some light at the end of the tunnel. Hope it's not a train.

I'm thinkin' the D3 regimen is the savior, but staying on other meds for now. If they go away completely I'll consider dropping the meds. They haven't done that in 7 years.

Thanks again Batch!  :D


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Eric Hanson on Dec 10th, 2011 at 10:43pm
Batch,

I first of all cant thank you enough for your help with this remedy. 

I do however still need some more clarification regarding the K2.  There are many varieties available from the Swanson Health products website that was recomended by another poster. 

Can you tell me exactly what brand of product you use?   I want to get the recipe exactly as you use right down to the brand of product.   I have every mineral covered except the K. 

Thanks again for your help and I hope you are having a nice weekend.

Eric

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Dec 11th, 2011 at 12:46am

69Strat wrote on Dec 10th, 2011 at 10:37pm:
Insurance company pays for shots, but no oxygen. They said clusters aren't a recognized condition.


If it's not recognized then why are cluster headaches classified as a primary headache by the International Headache Society - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE ?

Similarly, why are there over 2500 hits for cluster headache on the US National Library of Medicine (PubMed) - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE - many of which are describing medical research refereed and published in medical journals?

Of course the insurance company knows better...



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 11th, 2011 at 3:08am
69Strat,

Hang in there... and see my PM to you.  Regarding the oxygen...  It sounds like your medical insurance company is trying to bluff you...  If you have a valid Rx for oxygen therapy signed by your doctor and your insurance company is refusing to cover it, ask for the name and address of their physician in writing who decided to disregard your doctor's written orders...

While you're at it, you can send your insurance company the following link from the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services National Guideline Clearinghouse.  It's the EFNS guidelines on the treatment of cluster headache and other trigeminal-autonomic cephalalgias.   This standard of care guideline lists oxygen therapy at 15 liters/minute as the first abortive of choice for the acute treatment of cluster headache.

This guideline also contains the following chart showing the standard of care treatments for cluster headache:

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You can also play the code game with them... 

Diagnostic and Treatment Codes

  Diagnostic Codes

    ICD-9-CM Diagnosis Codes:
        Episodic Cluster Headaches – 339.01
        Chronic Cluster Headaches  – 339.02

   ICHD-II Codes:
       Episodic Cluster Headaches – 3.1.1
       Chronic Cluster Headaches  – 3.1.2

   ICD-10 NA Codes:
       Episodic Cluster Headaches – G44.01
       Chronic Cluster Headaches  – G44.02

The following codes for treatment and procedures are applicable to most private medical insurance guidelines are included below for informational purposes.  Inclusion or exclusion of a procedure, diagnosis or device code(s) does not constitute or imply member coverage or provider reimbursement policy.  Refer to your medical insurance contract benefits in effect at the time of service to determine coverage or non-coverage of these services as it applies to an individual member.

Playing Hard Ball When Calling Your Medical Insurance Company

The following is a modified version of an article from a 2007 OUCH Newsletter

1. Record your conversation with them about obtaining home oxygen therapy. Be upfront with them that they are being recorded. Be sure to have your policy in front of you, and know it. They may quote clauses in it that do not exist. If they quote from it let them know it is in front of you and ask exactly where in the policy they are quoting.

2. Ask for names when talking to representatives, both first and last. The insurance companies may make statements that turn out not to be true when they deny you your oxygen therapy. In my opinion this is their Achilles’ heel.  In my experience they do not want to give their full names out, if they don’t give you their name ask for their supervisor, or their supervisor’s supervisor.

3. One of the first statements that they may make is to site the fact that Medicare does not cover oxygen therapy for cluster headaches and that insurance companies are allowed to use this rule.  Unless you are on Medicare and have no secondary medical insurance, this rule may not apply to you.

4. They may also tell you that hyperbaric oxygen therapy is not covered.  While this is true, your doctor has prescribed normobaric oxygen therapy at one atmosphere barometric pressure and this method of oxygen therapy is covered.  If they quote from the FDA Legend they are making the implication that limiting oxygen therapy it is a federal regulation. This is not the case; this is where asking for the representative’s name is important. Would you want to be on the record quoting non-existing federal regulations to deny someone a lawfully prescribed medication?

5. Have your medical insurance policy/plan booklet in front of you when you call. If they tell you the limits are in your policy, tell them you have it in front of you, and ask them exactly where it is.

6. By changing or failing to honor your attending physician's orders as expressed in the prescription he/she wrote, they are practicing medicine without a license. When they tell you they have a review panel that includes a physician, the physician on their panel is committing malpractice since he's changing your attending physician's orders as expressed in the prescription when he's never examined you. Ask for that physicians name and credentials, and request to speak to him directly.

7. Another common mistake made by the insurance companies is that they are treating you as a COPD sufferer.  You may have to point out several times that you do not suffer from COPD and your blood oxygen levels are fine, but you do suffer from cluster headaches. Treating them as one and the same is a medical mistake.

9.  Remember that you are your own best advocate.  Be assertive yet polite. When given an untrue statement, tell them that it is untrue and ask from whom they are quoting and ask to speak to that person directly.  Ask them if they are sure they want to be on the record quoting that statement.  Remind them that the monthly cost of coverage for triptan injections runs from $680 to $2550 and that a month’s supply (4 M-size Oxygen cylinders) costs less than $160.  Also remind them of the cost of an ER visit, mention to them that you would have no choice but to go to the ER for the attacks. 

10. If you are still not getting any satisfaction, ask for the form and web link containing the procedures for challenge a coverage limitation.  They are required by law to provide you with this information.  Also ask for the phone number for the National Association of Insurance Commissioners covering your insurance company.  You can find this at the following link if they can’t come up with a number:

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    Healthcare Common Procedure Coding System (HCPCS) Codes

        Equipment:
           E0424-E0425 Stationary compressed gaseous oxygen system
           E0430-E0431 Portable gaseous oxygen system

       Contents:
          E0441 Oxygen contents, gaseous, 1 month’s supply = 1 unit

      Modifiers:
         QG - Prescribed amount of oxygen is greater than four liters per minute (LPM)


NHS,  You're correct about most folks getting enough calcium from milk and cheese...  It's the folks who don't that are cause for concern given the 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  As long as there's no reaction, the additional calcium won't hurt.

Eric, I don't take vitamin K/K2 as I chow down on lots of green veggies and we go through a lot of cheese around here... so I'm not much help on what brand of vitamin K2 to get... 

The role of this micronutrient is important, but it appears to be readily available at more than the dose required in veggies and Swiss cheese... 

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Vitamin K2 from any major name brand mfg. should work just fine.

Hope this helps,

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 11th, 2011 at 4:30am
So..... I guess I need to go Vitamin shopping perhaps. Aparently I've only been taking like a tenth of the D3 I should.
Heres what I've taken for 4 days

Omega 3 fish oil   4000  EPA 1200  DHA 800
Vitamin D3          1,200 IU / 30 mcg
Calcium              1,200 mg
Magnesium         100 mg
Vitamin K           0
zinc                  15 mg
Boron                0

I only have Calcium Citrate with Vitamin D3 and my "one-a-day" as a source of D3. The Calcium's have 200 UI each of D3 and I've taken 4 a day. And the one-a-day has 400 UI / 10 mcg. 30 mcg total.

I just seen Batch's picture of his Vitamins and he has a 5000 IU D3 bottle.
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I wonder if its odd I've had success? I do have a healthy diet, not awesome I guess, but mostly good home-cookin.
Back to the Vitamin Isle      :-?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by anthony g on Dec 11th, 2011 at 8:48am
I have been taking 10,000 iu vit d along with calcium/mag and fishoil. I was on verap of awhile and having contstant daily shadows. Something was telling me that the verapamil was doing more harm than good in reference to the constant shadows. I was talkin with my good friend batch and decided with my doc's approval to come off verap. Batch told me to up my d to 20,000 so i did. Guess what my constant shadows are MUCH better since. Coincidence? I dunno just yet but I believe it has an inpact for sure. I am also on 450mg lithium a day so I will keep u all posted!!
Anthony

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jon019 on Dec 11th, 2011 at 3:23pm
The above...WOW...just WOW...that there is a plan to go to battle with...textbook detail...concise and profound. Pete knows and provides....daily. Boy howdy...GOOD stuff!

Would add only a couple of other thoughts. In my own experience with the "evil empire"....at least 6 health insurance providers...only one covered O2 without question. All the others.... it was a fight.

1) They are gonna be thinking "migraine"..no matter what you say or what the diagnosis is. You must dissuade them of this fantasy....repeatedly...showing diagnosis...and...

2) With a Doc that's got your back. Took 20 yrs for me to find such...I'm a lucky man, but also a persistant, determined...and sometimes pissed off patient. If you don't advocate for yourself...aint no-one else gonna. When I showed some later denials (O2 and Zomig) to my treating neuro...she got as pissed as me and wrote a scathing letter indicating what treatment was needed, medically appropriate, and if they wished to dispute her...bring it on...you will lose! Better than any med...that letter...find yourself a headache specialist...with a head and a heart..it aint easy...neither is ch. BTW...they didn't lose...didn't want to fight anymore...they gave up... only a couple of days later...I have the E-tanks to prove it.

3) If you work for a company that provides health insurance...then it is likely to have been purchased through a "broker". Despite what seems logical...hey, I'm a customer of your insurance co...it AINT true. They really don't care a damn about you. The BROKER is their customer. Took me a while to realize that...and then I used that to my advantage. The broker wants to please their customer...YOUR company....and therefore YOU.  I hammered that broker, with the help of my HR dept, through resistance that was puzzling. Took a while and some angst...but I got what I needed..for ch...and later another condition.

Best,

Jon


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Dec 12th, 2011 at 9:57am
Hi, I haven't posted on here for a long time, everything was going along quite nicely with Batch's regime. 11 months into cycle  :-[ (usually last 6 weeks) and always on the left side. This week the headache has shifted to the right side, the shadow, numb nose, the annoying occassional reminder behind my eye etc !! I have had more D3 bood tests and they have come back as 279 nmol/L. This is quite high I think and my Dr wants to see me to discus things. The only problem is - I am taking 14,000iu D3 daily split into 2 doses plus the omega oils, zinc magnesium and calcium and if I reduce it at all the CH rears its ugly head within 2 days  >:( . I'm concerned that I will have to stop taking the vitamins. I would not have been able to function at work this year without taking them as I was having 5 CH a day all lasting between 2 - 3 hours. Just wondered what the highest D3 results have been on here and whether anyone has stopped taking it?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Dec 12th, 2011 at 10:52am
Hi oxyrunner

There is no reason to stop taking the vitamins, but you have to lower your vitamin-D3 intake to 5000 IU per day. It's enough to maintain a optimal vitamin-D level.  ;)


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Dec 12th, 2011 at 11:19am
Hi Oxyrunner
After 3 months on the regimen, 10.000 IU + sun, as this was summer months, my D3-level was 295.  I reduced daily intake to 7.500 (10- and 5.000 every other day).  1.5 months later my D3 level is a 271 nmol/L
I plan to keep using 7.500 and reduce to 5.000 when the summer arrives in 2012.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Eric Hanson on Dec 12th, 2011 at 4:00pm
Update;

I have been on a number of different treatments all at once so I know that determining which is working is all but impossible. 

But here is where I am at. 

I started the 123 method along with a 120 mg pred taper, lithium 900 mg p/d, 10 mg Melatonin at night, and two occipital nerve blocks, the latest on the 8th. (I am not sure what the two chemicals he injected were but I know that they were not lidocain or botox)  However my head was very anestetically numb on the entire back/upper right side.   

The lithium levels were tested and found to be well below theraputic ranges however my Neuro explains that the lithium is more to keep me from going insane on the pred than as a CH prevent.  He is right, I handeled the pred with not so much as a crazy thought.  It actaully has not been a bad experience so far. 

I had a total stoppage of all head aches about 3 or 4 days into the treatments.

I am down to 30 mg Pred per day doing a doctor prescribed "self taper" today being the second day, and I  have added in the swiss cheese for vitamin K2.  I also upped the D3 frm 10000 IU per day to 15000 IU per day this morning.  As I live in Minnesota and we are not getting alot of sun these days. 

After going nearly 6 days without a HA, I was then hit Saturday morning with a very strange KIP 7-8 that didnt respond to the o2 and was equally as stubborn to the 2-3 mg Imitrex self inject.  Taking about 30 minutes to completely clear up.  I was then hit again today Monday with a KIP 5-8 that also took about 20 minutes for the 4mg auto inject to clear things up.  The times for the Trex are about 10 to 15 minutes longer than usual.

I again am following the 123 regimin to a T using all of the required minerals and vitamins. 

Clearly I am not out of cycle or the woods yet.  But still not getting hit as hard as I was prior to trying anything. 

Please respond if anyone has some input, comments, or advice.   

Thanks,

E


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 12th, 2011 at 4:24pm
Hey Oxyrunner,

Good question...  If I were you...  I'd stay the course...  The risk:reward ratio is working in your favor if you have a better quality of life since starting this regimen...  And if the QoL isn't high enough...  you may need a higher dose of vitamin D3...

My wife takes 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and has done so for over a year.  She feels great, looks great and has more energy than I've seen in her in many years.  She's also kicked the heck out of 75 and turns 76 next week.  Her doctor told her to "keep doing whatever you're doing...  your labs look like their coming from a much younger woman."  That made my wife real happy...

When you see your doctor tell him you want to remain at the lowest dose of vitamin D3 that provides a therapeutic response to your CH (like mostly pain free) as long as your 25(OH)D level remains below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 500 nmol/L, (200 ng/mL).  If that dose is 14,000 IU/day...  Then that's the dose I'd take.

If your doctor is still having angst after hearing this...  Tell him you'll be happy to come in for another 25(OH)D lab in six months or if you appear to be having a reaction...

If you don't want to play Stump the Dummy with your doctor, go to the following link at the Vitamin D Council and get smart:

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I love their opening statement... and another further down the above page: "Can too much vitamin D be harmful? Yes, it certainly can - though anything can be toxic in excess, even water. As one of the safest substances known to man, vitamin D toxicity is very rare. In fact, people are at far greater risk of vitamin D deficiency than they are of vitamin D toxicity."

"Toxic doses

What exactly constitutes a toxic dose of vitamin D has yet to be determined, though it is possible this amount may vary with the individual.

Published cases of toxicity, for which serum levels and dose are known, all involve intake of ≥ 40000 IU (1000 mcg) per day.   Two different cases involved intake of over 2,000,000 IU per day - both men survived."

The whole issue over how much vitamin D3 to take and how high we should let our 25(OH)D go has unfortunately fallen into the hands of four big government, nanny-state bureaucrats on the Food and Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine and not in the hands of the thousands of physicians who treat patients with vitamin D3 deficiency on a daily basis over several years...

If you want to put this in perspective...  and there are several sides to this perspective depending on who/what you are...  i.e. CH'er, Big Government Bureaucrat, Physician, or Big Pharma...  let's take the use of verapamil as a CH preventative...

Until a couple years ago, neurologists just kept prescribing verapamil in higher doses... until we said "Ah", "Ugh" or fell on the floor clutching our chest...

Then in 2007, Goadsby et al. published a study on CH'ers taking verapamil as a preventative that found the following:


Results: Of three hundred sixty-nine patients with cluster headache, 217 outpatients (175 men) received verapamil, starting at 240 mg daily and increasing by 80 mg every 2 weeks with a check electrocardiogram (EKG), until the CH was suppressed, side effects intervened, or to a maximum daily dose of 960 mg. One patient had 1,200 mg/day. Eighty-nine patients (41%) had no EKGs. One hundred eight had EKGs in the hospital notes, and a further 20 had EKGs done elsewhere. Twenty-one of 108 patients (19%) had arrhythmias. Thirteen (12%) had first-degree heart block (PR > 0.2 s), at 240 to 960 mg/day, with one requiring a permanent pacemaker. Four patients had junctional rhythm, and one had second-degree heart block. Four patients had right bundle branch block. There was bradycardia (HR < 60 bpm) in 39 patients (36%), but verapamil was stopped in only 4 patients. In eight patients the PR interval was lengthened, but not to >0.2 s. The incidence of arrhythmias on verapamil in this patient group is 19%, and bradycardia 36%. Conclusion: We therefore strongly recommend EKG monitoring in all patients with cluster headache on verapamil, to observe for the potential development of atrioventricular block and symptomatic bradycardia.

Now...  How many of us received a prescription for verapamil prior to 2007 and were told to have an EKG to establish a baseline and to have a second EKG after reaching a therapeutic dose?   

My guess is the answer was zero... unless your cardiologist was treating your CH...

Let's try another analogy...  Which is bigger... a bread box or a house?

A house of course...  All Y'all got that right.

Now... which of the following two things we can take to prevent our CH has a bigger risk of death, Vitamin D3 or Verapamil?

If you said verapamil...  Good on you...  Now for the bonus question...

How much bigger?

You'll see what I mean if you take a look at the following link that provides statistics on adverse reactions and side effects attributed to verapamil as reported to the FDA.

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The links relating to death and verapamil are sobering:

Index of reports > Cases resulting in death (133)
         Completed Suicide (104),  Cardiac Arrest (12),  Drug Toxicity (10),  Poisoning (10),  Cardio-Respiratory Arrest (6),  Intentional Drug Misuse (5),  Poisoning Deliberate (5),  Medication Error (5),  Respiratory Arrest (5),  Intentional Overdose (4)

Kind of blows your mind a bit... doesn't it?  Now I'm not a doctor and you'll notice I didn't say "Don't take verapamil..."  It's a valuable medication when prescribed properly.  But when you compare the risk:reward ratios between verapamil and vitamin D3...  there's two reasonable options but really one good option...

Soooo...  in my book...  It all comes down to quality of life and the risk of keeping it high or at least acceptable so we can function like normal folks do...  If the risk is low in maintaining this level of QoL when preventing your CH...  it's a no brainer...  You decide then talk with your doctor...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 13th, 2011 at 9:46pm
Yikes. I now better understand why my Dr and Cardiologist fanatically said NO WAY to verapamil. I have a stubborn case of recurrent SVT, (Super ventricular tachycardia), which means Atria tachycardia (upper heart) and its the 'nuisance' form. Ventricular tachycardia is the one that kills. bradycardia is very scary (too slow HR), I've been boarder-line once, during surgery. Not a good feeling, even while sedated.

Great info, and its amazing EKG's are not done for 100% of patients. It takes 10 seconds, and a sheet of paper. I could give myself one if you left me alone with the machine for 10 mins. Its harder to hook-up a printer then an EKG. lol

Just on the basis of risk, vs cost of doing an EKG.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Dec 15th, 2011 at 3:54am
Thanks for the info Batch - I love you your updates, the're like a mini encyplopedia.  ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 15th, 2011 at 1:10pm

oxyrunner wrote on Dec 15th, 2011 at 3:54am:
Thanks for the info Batch - I love you your updates, the're like a mini encyplopedia.  ;)


lol. Great analogy. I agree.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Dec 15th, 2011 at 5:08pm

oxyrunner wrote on Dec 15th, 2011 at 3:54am:
Thanks for the info Batch - I love you your updates, the're like a mini encyplopedia.  ;)



I always warn people...Batch's posts are long, technical, wordy....read them anyways, they're worth it! ;D

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Dec 16th, 2011 at 1:48pm
Survey completed.

My experience is...3 months at Vitamin D 15,000 IU daily = no improvement.

increased Vitamin D to 25,000 IU for past 2 weeks = no improvement.

going to quit regimen as it is ineffective for me. Undecided

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 16th, 2011 at 3:15pm
LasVegas
None of my business I suppose, but did you try the whole regime or just D3?
I ask because I'm not sure what ingredient is doing me more good then the other, since I was only taking 1200 IU of D3 with
Calcium Citrate w/D3 (1200 mg Calcium, 5 mcg of D3)
Omega 3 (2000 mg derived from 4000 mg of fish oil) 1200 EPA + 800 mg DHA, but I cut back one pill (1/4 total amount)
Multivitamin with extra Selenium (Men's One-a-day)
Ingredients
Vitamins:
    Vitamin A (as acetate).........4000 IU
    Beta-Carotene .....................1000 IU
    Thiamine ).............................2.25 mg
    Riboflavin .............................2.55 mg
    Vitamin B6 .................................3 mg
    Vitamin B12..............................9 mcg
    Vitamin C..................................90 mg
     Vitamin D.................................400 IU
    Vitamin E.....................................45 IU
    Folate........................................0.4 mg
    Niacinamide.............................20 mg
    Panthothenic Acid...................10 mg
    Minerals:
    Chlorine.....................................34 mg
    Chromium............................150 mcg
    Copper........................................2 mg
    Iodine.....................................0.15 mg
    Magnesium............................100 mg
    Manganese.............................3.5 mg
    Molybdenum...........................42 mcg
    Potassium...........................37.5 mcg
    Selenium.............................87.5 mcg
    Zinc.......................................15 mg

I got immediate CH relief and I was in the middle of a bad bout. I had taken psilocybin since it busted my clusters the past 2 times, yet the last time it made my CH's much worse. Perhaps the combo of psilocybin and the Vitamin regime helped me, yet I feel the regime deserves all the credit.

I'm not suggesting what I take(n) would be any better then what you've tried, yet from your Dopamine post I'd suggest trying more Magnesium, perhaps.

I know I'm going to look in to whether I can/could/should increase the amount of Magnesium.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Dec 16th, 2011 at 3:39pm
D3 without magnesium may prove not to have the desired effect.  Magnesium is the singlemost important D3 co-factor. Unless your food is very rich on magnesium, do not skip it in this regimen. And if you do, make sure you say it out load. No point blaming the gaz for not working on your car if you're out of oil.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Dec 16th, 2011 at 4:27pm
PlayDoh,
Yes, i've done the entire regimen and have had numerous phone conversations as well as in-person discussions with Batch.  I've done everything correctly, yet no relief. 

This regimen has provided excellent results for many, however is not 100% effective for everybody; just like Verapamil/o2/etc is not 100% effective for everybody.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:05am
Sucks vegas, but yeah, the nature of the beast. We still haven't found that magic 100% silver bullet. :'(

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:16am

Guiseppi wrote on Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:05am:
Sucks vegas, but yeah, the nature of the beast. We still haven't found that magic 100% silver bullet. :'(

Joe


and we probably never will Joe because there is a lack of awareness, $, neurological education and research/development

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 17th, 2011 at 2:33pm

LasVegas wrote on Dec 16th, 2011 at 4:27pm:
PlayDoh,
Yes, i've done the entire regimen and have had numerous phone conversations as well as in-person discussions with Batch.  I've done everything correctly, yet no relief. 

This regimen has provided excellent results for many, however is not 100% effective for everybody; just like Verapamil/o2/etc is not 100% effective for everybody.


Damn, I'm truly sorry to hear that. I think that's one of the most puzzling aspects of CH, is the disparity in treatments efficacy.

I wonder how it ranks among ailments in that aspect?

Kudos for giving it a try and helping out with feedback.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chad on Dec 20th, 2011 at 6:19am
Batch,  first off, thanks for your info on this.  I'm starting a cycle now and would like to try this along with my rc seeds that I use regularly as maintenance.  The seeds seem to help with the cycles as they have been easier to manage the past couple of years.  My question and maybe somebody already asked, but what about plain vitamin D or is D and D3 the same?  I'm a dummy when it comes to vitamins.  I already take 2000 mg fish oil/day and 2400mg of red yeast rice/day to manage my cholesterol along with with jogging a couple times of the week.  I wonder if my change of lifestyle has helped my CH.  My remission has been 1.5 years compared to the usual 6 months.  I do want to try this immediately because my goal like every bodies is to control this beast as fast as possible w/o using pharma drugs.  Thank God for my O2.  It never lets me down.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Eroc on Dec 20th, 2011 at 7:26am

Batch wrote on Dec 10th, 2011 at 12:54pm:
.

For example, the 500 mg. calcium in this regimen is essential as vitamin D3 pulls calcium from the gut and puts it into solution in the blood.  If you supplement with vitamin D3 and the total intake of calcium from all sources is not sufficient, the vitamin D3 will start leeching calcium from the bones...  Hmmm...  that's not good...



I am not a doctor but engaged in a conversation with my father in law who was almost admitted to the hospital for too much calcium.  He is being treated for a slow growing cancer of some sort that he has had for more than ten years. 

I found this information at the following link:
Vitamin D promotes calcium absorption in the gut and maintains adequate serum calcium and phosphate concentrations to enable normal mineralization of bone and to prevent hypocalcemic tetany. It is also needed for bone growth and bone remodeling by osteoblasts and osteoclasts [1,2]. Without sufficient vitamin D, bones can become thin, brittle, or misshapen. Vitamin D sufficiency prevents rickets in children and osteomalacia in adults [1]. Together with calcium, vitamin D also helps protect older adults from osteoporosis.

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The two pieces of information appear to contradict each other. 

Batch could you help clear this up as I am sure you have seen this before?

Thanks

7 Days PF

Eric

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Dec 20th, 2011 at 8:14am
Hi Eric,
I've mentioned it several times, that most people get enough calcium in their diet. We have discussed the issue at VitaminDcouncil a couple of years back, and the conclusion was that most people taking vitamin-D, DON'T need extra calcium.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 20th, 2011 at 4:54pm
Most folks who eat a healthy, well-balanced diet get sufficient calcium.  However as we get older, we need additional calcium to help prevent osteoporosis.  Most calcium supplements also contain 600 to 800 I.U. vitamin D3 to help push the calcium supplements into the blood stream.

The Food and Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine set the Dietary Reference Intakes (DRIs) for vitamin D3 and calcium in 2010.  Understand that the four members of the FNB who set these DRIs are recognized experts in nutrition and biochemistry.  Three of them come from tenured professorial positions academia and one from big government (FDA and NIH-DHHS).  In short, they're not medical doctors nor do they test and treat patients for vitamin D3 deficiencies on a routine basis...  but they want to control what you take when it comes to USP vitamins and minerals.

You'll find the DRIs for calcium and vitamin D3 at the following link:

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It's interesting to note that the DRIs call for ~ 1000 mg/day calcium and a staggering 600 IU/day vitamin D3.  Moreover these experts also decided that the safe tolerable upper limit (UL) daily intake for these two supplements are 2000 mg/day calcium and 4,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

You're probably wondering why the political circumlocution and why doesn't he answer the question...

Here it is...  The experts in vitamin D3 therapy talk about a 95% dose...  In other words, in order to ensure that adequate calcium levels are met for 95% of the population and the average requirement for calcium is 800 mg/day, then we need a total of 1000 mg/day calcium from all sources, i.e. dairy products and supplements to ensure 95% of the population has enough calcium. 

However, when you consider that 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 will drive more calcium from the gut into solution than normal, you're faced with two choices and their consequences... 

Take more calcium... when it may not be needed...  or take too little calcium and run the risk of vitamin D3 leaching calcium from bones when too little calcium is available in the gut...

The anti-inflammatory regimen calls for 500 mg/day of calcium citrate...  Sounds reasonable to me...  you decide.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Dec 21st, 2011 at 7:06am

Quote:
Take more calcium... when it may not be needed...  or take too little calcium and run the risk of vitamin D3 leaching calcium from bones when too little calcium is available in the gut...


If your not getting enough calcium from your diet, it's very important to get a calcium supplement. But with 10.000 IU of vitamin-D3 and a normal diet most people get all the calcium needed, and nothing are lost from the bones but calcium are added. Most people don't get enough magnesium, so the 500 mg extra calcium you recommend will offset most of the extra magnesium supplement, and the cal/mag imbalance is still present. So the extra calcium makes no sense.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Dec 21st, 2011 at 9:12am

nhs wrote on Dec 21st, 2011 at 7:06am:
Most people don't get enough magnesium, so the 500 mg extra calcium you recommend will offset most of the extra magnesium supplement, and the cal/mag imbalance is still present. So the extra calcium makes no sense.


Hi nhs.  I know D3 will heighten the uptake of Ca. But what is the role of Mg here?  Why imbalance, and what is the effect?

Thanks!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Dec 21st, 2011 at 2:36pm
Regarding D3 dosing:  Dr. John Cannell at the Vitamin D Council states the general rule:

... proper maintenance dosage(25mcg (1,000 IU/10 kg per day)

From this recent article:
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Dec 21st, 2011 at 3:37pm

Quote:
Hi nhs.  I know D3 will heighten the uptake of Ca. But what is the role of Mg here?  Why imbalance, and what is the effect?


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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 21st, 2011 at 11:21pm

nhs wrote on Dec 21st, 2011 at 7:06am:
But with 10.000 IU of vitamin-D3 and a normal diet most people get all the calcium needed

Define "Normal Diet". I would assume, from the people I know, that "Most" people don't even drink milk anymore.

I don't think its wise to Generalize "Most People", and I don't see the point in arguing that a Calcium supplement is unnecessary. If you feel its unnecessary, don't take it, simple as that.
1000 mg/day calcium is quite a bit, and considering vitamin D3 will drive more calcium from the gut into solution than normal its seems logical that a Calcium supplement IS necessary in most circumstances.

Even if its not necessary, its understandable that its recommended. All supplements are "Unnecessary" if your diet is sufficient, its up to you to determine if you should take one or not.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 7:43am
If you are low in vitamin-D, only 20-30% of the diet calcium is absorbed from the gut, so when the vitamin-D level increases, the calcium absorption will increase the absorption from the remaining 70-80% calcium from your diet. Vitamin-D sufficiency may be more important than high calcium intake in maintaining desired values of serum PTH. Vitamin-D have a calcium sparing effect and as long as vitamin D status is ensured, calcium intake levels of more than 800 mg/d may be unnecessary for maintaining calcium metabolism. So taking vitamin-D, don't need extra calcium from supplement, if your diet contains 800 mg of calcium.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bsic on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 10:39am
Im heading to the doc tomm to get routing bloodwork done for high cholesterol.

I can use this opportunity to get other things measured which you are interested in.

I just started this regimen three days ago.  What specific things would you guys be interested in seeing as far as bloodwork goes?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 1:39pm

bsic wrote on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 10:39am:
What specific things would you guys be interested in seeing as far as bloodwork goes?

25(OH)D serum levels


25-hydroxy vitamin D test

The 25-hydroxy vitamin D test is the most accurate way to measure how much vitamin D is in your body.

In the kidney, 25-hydroxy vitamin D changes into an active form of the vitamin. The active form of vitamin D helps control calcium and phosphate levels in the body.

This article discusses the blood test used to measure the amount of 25-hydroxy vitamin D.
How the Test is Performed

Blood is typically drawn from a vein, usually from the inside of the elbow or the back of the hand. The site is cleaned with germ-killing medicine. The health care provider wraps an elastic band around the upper arm to apply pressure to the area and make the vein swell with blood.

Next, the health care provider gently inserts a needle into the vein. The blood collects into an airtight vial or tube attached to the needle. The elastic band is removed from your arm.

Once the blood has been collected, the needle is removed, and the puncture site is covered to stop any bleeding.

In infants or young children, a sharp tool called a lancet may be used to puncture the skin and make it bleed. The blood collects into a small glass tube called a pipette, or onto a slide or test strip. A bandage may be placed over the area if there is any bleeding.
How to Prepare for the Test

Do not eat for 4 hours before the test.
How the Test Will Feel

When the needle is inserted to draw blood, some people feel moderate pain, while others feel only a prick or stinging sensation. Afterward, there may be some throbbing.
Why the Test is Performed

This test is done to determine if you have too much or too little vitamin D in your blood.
Normal Results

The normal range is 30.0 to 74.0 nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL).

Note: Normal value ranges may vary slightly among different laboratories. Talk to your doctor about the meaning of your specific test results.

The examples above show the common measurements for results for these tests. Some laboratories use different measurements or may test different specimens.
What Abnormal Results Mean

Lower than normal levels suggest a vitamin D deficiency. This condition can result from:

    Lack of exposure to sunlight
    Lack of adequate vitamin D in the diet
    Liver and kidney diseases
    Malabsorption
    Use of certain medicines, including phenytoin, phenobarbital, and rifampin

Low vitamin D levels are more common in African-American children, particularly in the winter, as well as in infants who are exclusively breastfed. Low vitamin D levels have also been associated with an increased risk of developing cancer. For more information, see the article on vitamin D deficiency.

Higher than normal levels suggest excess vitamin D, a condition called hypervitaminosis D.
Risks

Alternative Names
25-OH vitamin D test; Calcidiol 25-hydroxycholecalciferol test

From
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cosworth on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 4:18pm
Question for Batch or anyone.. I've been on a Fish Oil Regimen for a while for joint issues. My doctor recommended taking supplements that would provide betwen 3 and 4 grams combined of omega 3's. This requires much higher doses than recommended as part of this regimen. (I typically take between 2 and 3 grams of Omega 3's).   My question is whether taking significantly more fish oil would have any known negative consequence to this regimen?   

Background:  Longtime reader though i don't post much. Just entering a cycle.. :( I've been episodic sufferer with fairly consistent timing over the past 20 years typically early fall to early spring onset, usually one cycle a year lasting 10-14 weeks. As usual, i start getting hit and i come back to this wonderful board because it's the only place i feel like there is any understanding... and as always i feel a little guilty about having been away.  I'm determined to fight this latest cycle with all known natural treatments (that i can actually get) before going the way of prednisone, etc. I'm excited to try this regimen, and am just wondering if upping the fish oil portion presents any known problems?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 5:26pm
Cosworth

Hi.  I don't think your amount of Omega 3 will have any negative effect on the regimen. If any effect, a positive is more likely.

I think it's very common to be on-board when in cycle and the gradually get off-board  :)

I really hope the regimen works for you.  Very interesting that your cycle has just begun, because if the regimen kicks in, you'll know it's not the regular end of cycle.  Good luck!


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 6:12pm
I started off taking 4000 MG (4 Grams) of Omega 3, but now in the name of conservation I take 3000 or 3 pills.

The Omega 3 I have is "select" and it has a higher concentration of EPA and DHA then most, I assume. Batch recommends EPA 360 mg/day, DHA 240 mg/day from 2000 to 2400 mg/day of fish oil a day.

My Omega 3 have 500 mg of Omega 3 (EPA 300 and DHA 200) from 1000 mg of fish oil, in each pill. I take 3 now, but took 4 a day for a week

So I'm taking EPA 900 and DHA 600, and took EPA 1200 and DHA 800 with no ill effects at all. I'm sure my bad Cholesterol took a good hit, and is still getting reduced, which can only be a good thing.

Just an early calculation by me, seems that around 75% of people find it works for them, and a good portion of those are PF. Give it a fair try and theres a good chance it will help, and even if not, it does a body good.  ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 3:01am
NHS,

I suspect we're in violent agreement.  The basic anti-inflammatory regimen I developed calls for the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate as it is formulated with additional vitamin D3, magnesium and zinc, along with the trace minerals copper and boron to help maintain electrolyte homeostasis. 

When I ran this regimen by some of the leading experts in vitamin D3 therapy, it got a green light and a suggestion to add more magnesium...  which I have done with the "complete" version of this regimen by adding 400 mg. magnesium citrate or magnesium gluconate.  This brings the calcium-magnesium ratio close to 1:1, so there should be no imbalance for most CH'ers who use this regimen unless they have other medical problems listed below.

There's no clear consensus as to the ideal ratio of calcium to magnesium when it comes to taking these two supplements, save for a range of 4:1 to 1:1.  In addition, the Linus Pauling Institute for Micronutrient Research for Optimum Health suggests that adults 31 years and older have an RDA for magnesium equal to 420 mg/day for men and 320 mg/day for women.  They site a study where 600 mg/day magnesium helped prevent migraines. For reference, the IOM RDIs for magnesium in this same age group are 420 mg/day for men and 320 mg/day for women.  From my own experience, taking too much magnesium is easy to spot... as going over these values can result in osmotic diarrhea.

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The Linus Pauling Institute also contends:


"The active form of vitamin D [calcitriol - 25(OH)D] may slightly increase intestinal absorption of magnesium. However, magnesium absorption does not seem to be calcitriol-dependent as is the absorption of calcium and phosphate. High calcium intake has not been found to affect magnesium balance in most studies. Inadequate blood magnesium levels are known to result in low blood calcium levels, resistance to parathyroid hormone (PTH) action, and resistance to some of the effects of vitamin D."

"Magnesium deficiency in healthy individuals who are consuming a balanced diet is quite rare because magnesium is abundant in both plant and animal foods and because the kidneys are able to limit urinary excretion of magnesium when intake is low. The following conditions increase the risk of magnesium deficiency:

Gastrointestinal disorders: Prolonged diarrhea, Crohn's disease, malabsorption syndromes, celiac disease, surgical removal of a portion of the intestine, and intestinal inflammation due to radiation may all lead to magnesium depletion.

Renal disorders (magnesium wasting): Diabetes mellitus and long-term use of certain diuretics (see Drug interactions) may result in increased urinary loss of magnesium. Multiple other medications can also result in renal magnesium wasting.

Chronic alcoholism: Poor dietary intake, gastrointestinal problems, and increased urinary loss of magnesium may all contribute to magnesium depletion, which is frequently encountered in alcoholics.

Age: Several studies have found that elderly people have relatively low dietary intakes of magnesium. Intestinal magnesium absorption tends to decrease with age and urinary magnesium excretion tends to increase with age; thus, suboptimal dietary magnesium intake may increase the risk of magnesium depletion in the elderly."


Finally, this is a therapeutic regimen.  There is more than sufficient medical evidence to prove that a dose of vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day will result in a safe and stable level of 25(OH)D... ~ 90 ng/mL, (225 nmol/L) if the starting level is 26 ng/mL, (65 nmol/L).  At these levels, supplemental calcium and magnesium are prudent as are the other vitamin D3 cofactors. 

The only way to know for sure if this regimen is suspected to be creating an imbalance is to have a Chemistry Panel & Complete Blood Count (CBC) lab test done along with the test for 25(OH)D.  The test for Parathyroid Hormone (PTH) might also be a good idea as PTH plays a significant role in calcium homeostasis.

Hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 4:49am
Hey Cosworth,

The amount of Omega 3 Fish Oil you're taking should work just fine without any problems.  I originally started this regimen with 3000 to 4000 mg (3 to 4 grams) of Omega 3 Fish Oil but dropped the dose to 2000 - 2400 mg/day to keep things simple when it appeared that amount worked just as well.

Please keep us posted on your results.  The survey of this regimen indicates CH'ers start experiencing a marked reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH in less than 24 hours to 10 days and most are pain free before the end of the third week.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 5:49am

Magnesium:
A Key to Calcium Absorption

By Nan Kathryn Fuchs, Ph.D.



One of the most popular minerals in the news today is calcium, needed for strong bones and teeth. We are told to take increased amounts in our diet as a supplement to prevent osteoporosis and eliminate muscle cramping during menstruation or from over-exercising. Yet, calcium alone is often not enough. Without magnesium, calcium may be not fully utilized, and underabsorption problems may occur leading to arthritis, osteoporosis, menstrual cramps, and some premenstrual symptoms.

Perhaps the single most significant reason calcium malabsorption is so common today is due to a discrepancy between what we eat and how we digest and absorb the nutrients in our food. Our diets today are very different from those of our ancestors though our bodies remain similar.

Thousands of years ago, our ancestors ate foods high in magnesium and low in calcium. Because calcium supplies were scarce and the need for this vital mineral was great, it was effectively stored by the body. Magnesium, on the other hand, was abundant and readily available, in the form of nuts, seeds, grains, and vegetables, and did not need to be stored internally.

Our bodies still retain calcium and not magnesium although we tend to eat much more dairy than our ancestors. In addition, our sugar and alcohol consumption is higher than theirs, and both sugar and alcohol increase magnesium excretion through the urine. Our grains, originally high in magnesium, have been refined, which means that the nutrient is lost in the refining process. The quality of our soil has deteriorated as well, due to the use of fertilizers that contain large amounts of potassium a magnesium antagonist. This results in foods lower in magnesium than ever before.


ARTHRITIS AND OSTEOPOROSIS

Two major health problems, arthritis and osteoporosis, may be caused in part by a magnesium deficiency. When you look at how calcium is absorbed these problems become easier to understand, and often can be controlled through diet.

Magnesium is needed for calcium absorption. Without enough magnesium, calcium can collect in the soft tissues and cause one type of arthritis. Not only does calcium collect in the soft tissues of arthritics, it is poorly, if at all, absorbed into their blood and bones. But taking more calcium is not the answer; it only amplifies the problem. In fact, excessive calcium intake and insufficient magnesium can contribute to both of these diseases. Magnesium taken in proper dosages can solve the problem of calcium deficiency.
When calcium is elevated in the blood it stimulates the secretion of a hormone called calcitonin and suppresses the secretion of the parathyroid hormone (PTH). These hormones regulate the levels of calcium in our bones and soft tissues and are, therefore, directly related to both osteoporosis and arthritis. PTH draws calcium out of the bones and deposits it in the soft tissues, while calcitonin increases calcium in our bones and keeps it from being absorbed in our soft tissues. Sufficient amounts of magnesium determine this delicate and important balance.

Because magnesium suppresses PTH and stimulates calcitonin it helps put calcium into our bones, preventing osteoporosis, and helps remove it from our soft tissues eliminating some forms of arthritis. A magnesium deficiency will prevent this chemical action from taking place in our bodies, and no amount of calcium can correct it. While magnesium helps our body absorb and retain calcium, too much calcium prevents magnesium from being absorbed. So taking large amounts of calcium without adequate magnesium may either create malabsorption or a magnesium deficiency. Whichever occurs, only magnesium can break the cycle.

In experiments reported in "International Clinical Nutrition Review," a number of volunteers on a low-magnesium diet were given both calcium and vitamin D supplements. AU the subjects were magnesium-depleted and although they had been given adequate supplements, all but one became deficient in calcium. When they were given calcium intravenously, the level of calcium in their blood rose, but only for the duration of the intravenous feeding. As soon as the intravenous calcium was stopped, the levels calcium in the blood dropped. However, when magnesium was given, their magnesium levels rose and stabilized rapidly, and calcium levels also rose within a few days - although no additional calcium had been taken.
Dr. Guy Abraham, M.D., a research gynecologist and endocrinologist in premenstrual syndrome and osteoporosis has found strong evidence to suggest that women with osteoporosis have a deficiency of a chemical that is made when they take twice as much magnesium as calcium. In fact, he has found that when calcium intake is decreased, it is utilized better than when it is high. Dr. Abraham is one of many doctors and biochemists who advocate taking more magnesium to correct calcium-deficiency diseases.

A magnesium-rich diet can be helpful both for arthritis and to help prevent osteoporosis. This consists of nuts, whole grains such as brown rice, millet, buckwheat (kasha), whole wheat, triticate, and rye, and legumes including lentils, split peas, and a varieties of beans. A whole grain cereal or bread in the morning, a cup of bean soup at lunch, a snack of a few nuts, and serving of brown rice, millet, or buckwheat with dinner should help increase magnesium when a deficiency is suspected

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cosworth on Dec 26th, 2011 at 1:00pm
Hey Batch,

Thanks for the info and reply - I've been away from my computer due to the holidays but I do have some interesting news to report. You mentioned a survey so if there is somewhere else i should be updating results let me know.  So,  I started the regimen (minus the magnesium which I still need to pick up) the day after i posted which was the 23rd i believe. As I mentioned, I am 99% sure as a long time CH sufferer that i was entering my cycle.  My cycles are pretty good bell curves with the beginnings having major shadowing which typically noticeable all day punctuated with minor clusters kip 1-3 that don't last a long time. My cycles progress to where in the peak weeks I'm usually getting hit 3-5 times a day with CH (kip 6-9) that typically last 1-1.5 hrs. with no O2.  Since discovering O2 about 5 yrs ago i get my e tanks filled and have pretty good success aborting within 20-30 minutes (usually).  Anyway, I am not sure but I think I have noticed a reduction in the shadowing since starting this regimen a few days ago. I'm still having shadows, but they don't seem to be progressing as i would normally expect them to.  In addition, i've done something the last couple of nights that i typically could never do once a cycle started which is have a couple of  drinks each of the last three nights.  Having a cycle start up right before the holidays when I am finally getting a few days off work and looking forward to a little festivity with the family was a real bummer and i guess in my own stupid way to defy the beast i decided i was going to make the beast prove he was back before deciding it was time to go on my yearly 3 month alcohol-free period.  (Alcohol always been a sure-fire trigger for me).  I'm very excited by the results i've read about and am really hoping it works for me.  I temper this with the knowledge that i have had cycles begin as usual with shadowing, etc. and then for inexplicable reason stop.. and wait a month or so and then begin again for real.  That's why i said i was 99% sure my cycle had begun. Usually once the heavy shadowing is at hand it's a done deal that i'm going to begin a cycle.   So, I just wanted to say thanks. Like so many others, anything that offers some hope to stop these @#% CH's is truly a Godsend.  I'm curious if other Episodic sufferers have been able to eliminate cycles completely to where this regimen has actually "busted" a cycle? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 69Strat on Dec 27th, 2011 at 6:06pm
Week 5. Just upped to 20,000 IU D3 at Batch's suggestion. Was chronic, 6+ per day up to Kip 8-10. Almost vanished during the day. Still have a 1 AM and 4 AM hit at about Kip 3-4. Remarkable improvement!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Dec 27th, 2011 at 9:30pm
Hi All,
Has anyone considered adding B2 (Riboflavin) to the regimen?  I've noticed a lot of information online that it can help with migraine headaches.  I wonder if it would have the same effect for clusters?  Maybe adding B2 would help those who have been able to achieve a reduction in intensity but not able to go pf actually go pf.   
I've been in cycle for the last two months and on the D3 treatment for the last two weeks.  The reduction in intensity of the beast has been amazing.  I had a hit this morning and actually debated with myself if I needed to take an abortive to kill it or just live with it.  I'm hoping that a third week on the D3 I will be able to achieve pf status. 

Second question for the group.  How important is the vitamin K for the regimen?  I am unable to find it in Canada.  I don't think the government allows the sale of it. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 28th, 2011 at 12:20am
MM&I, 69Strat, Cosworth,

Your responses so far are what I've come to expect.  Not sure how much effect vitamin K has on all this, but it's becoming clear magnesium is essential to metabolize vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D effectively.  If you haven't added extra magnesium to bring the total supplement up to ~ 400 mg/day magnesium, do so...

From the data collected so far, it appears this regimen is equally effective for episodic and chronic CH'ers.

Hang in there the three of you and I'm sure you'll find the response to this regimen will improve even more...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Eroc on Dec 30th, 2011 at 1:00am
Batch,  I know you are a busy person helping many people who post here as I am also a busy guy with work and all.  So I will try to summarize as best as I can.  I started multiple treatments at the same time Lithium @ 900 mg p/d, 120 mg pred taper, 2 occipital nerve blocks, 10 MG melatonin at bedtine, and your regimine.  For that reason I am not able to complete the survey as I dont know what works.  I am still on the lithium and your regimin.  I also was able to find the K2 but am not taking the full dose as it is really expensive.   After starting all of those treatments my CH's halted quite rapidly.  I believe without checking my records that it was day 4 or 5 of the pred taper (3 days at 120 mg then taper by 10 mg P/d) and day 2 or 3 of the 123 regimin. 

I have been HA free for 16 days.  However I have been having daily what I believe to be some sort of non developing sinus infection/pressure that OTC meds seem to help with.  I dont seem to have many of the other symptoms of a sinus infection and it is also pressure that switches sides.  I do have a bit of a cough but basically no other symptoms. 

Tonight as I have tomorrow off I decided to give the whiskey test a try.  I feel as though I am shadowing but it is still very strange.  As I palpate my right eye (cluster side) it is much more sensetive than the left.  That coupled with the sinus pressure if that indeed is sinus pressure I am going to guess that I am not out of cycle yet and either the 15000 IU of D3 regimine or the lithium is doing its job.  I will update you tomorrow if I get hit while sleeping but I am crossing my fingers.  I am also thinking of upping the D3 to 20000 IU to see what happens there.  I am also going to schedule an appt with my GP to see if I should go on some antibiotics to see if that clears up the sinus pressure.  That pressure is deffinetly different than CH pain.  Again though it doesnt seem to be getting better or worse.  When I do have that appointment I will get my 25 OH D3 levels checked to report back to you. 

Additionally todays "vodka" test included several "rounds" of theraputic treatment.  Much needed as this is a very stressfull time of the year at work.   ;) 

Your input is welcome but I basically wanted to update you regarding my progress with this bout.  I am episodic with 2+ yrs between bouts.  32 YOA and this is my 5th diagnosed bout. 

Thanks again and boy do I hope that your D3 research leads to more CH research and perhaps someday an effective treatment for all.  (Insert C word) ;D 

Eric

P.S. Shout out to NHS as well.  I read "The CH cure?"  Pretty strong opposition over something that in the long run seems to be a breakthrough for many. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 30th, 2011 at 6:03pm
Hey Eroc.

Thanks for the wonderful post.  I'll try to be objective in my assessment of your present CH response to all the med's you've taken and are presently taking...  However, as I have a dog in the fight...  I'm sure some folks will still say I'm biased.

There's a simple and easy way to prove what's working... and what isn't...  between the lithium carbonate and the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing your CH...  I've already tried the following stress test just to prove it to myself...

Stop taking the anti-inflammatory regimen...  My guess is within 24 to 48 hours you'll have depleted the reserves of 25(OH)D you've built up and be back in a high CH cycle with a solid CH hit...

Not to worry...  At the first sign of a hit, gobble down the regimen with the 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 you were taking and bite down on a couple of the vitamin D3 softgel capsules to release the contents into your mouth and under your tongue for 30 seconds then wash it down with some juice or water. 

If your CH behave like mine...  you'll abort the hit in short order... like in less than 20 minutes with some deep breathing, and go back to being pain free...

After that... you and your doctor can decide what to do about whether or not to continuing taking the lithium carbonate...  As good as lithium carbonate can be for some CH'ers...  the odds are it wasn't responsible for your going pain free so rapidly...

You can wait until the new year before to try this stress test just in case I'm wrong about how fast you'll respond to the resumption of the anti-inflammatory regimen...  no sense in putting some good drinking time at risk on my count... 

When you're done with this stress test and have your 25(OH)D level tested... you can take the anti-inflammatory survey and provide us with your results...  one way or the other...

I've already got the results of your stress test sealed in an old Mayonnaise jar buried out by the woodshed.

Take care, have a pain free Happy New Year...  and please keep us posted...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 30th, 2011 at 6:36pm
Pill (tablet) vs Soft-gel? At my local Wally-World they had Vitamins for 40% off, but there tablets. I asked the same Pharmacist who was less then helpful last time I ask, and he said that it wouldn't matter.

I asked him if I was taking them everyday, if it would really matter, since he said that the soft-gels are faster acting. I figured since my levels should be good when I'm done with the soft-gels, tablets should be good to 'maintain' my levels.

I thought of maybe taking half soft-gel, half tablet also.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 30th, 2011 at 6:43pm

Eroc wrote on Dec 30th, 2011 at 1:00am:
I have been HA free for 16 days.  However I have been having daily what I believe to be some sort of non developing sinus infection/pressure that OTC meds seem to help with.  I dont seem to have many of the other symptoms of a sinus infection and it is also pressure that switches sides.  I do have a bit of a cough but basically no other symptoms.  


I'm not drawing conclusions, yet it may be worth noting that I also got an infection right after starting the regime. I got a bad ear infection, almost the day after starting. That might be too soon to be a result of, yet I haven't had a ear infection in almost 20 years.

I did have a mild cough for about a week after my ear cleared up, and even brought up some Flem, which would suggest mild bronchitis. Yet it was only once I coughed it up, and I've been infection free for a couple weeks now, and still PF.  ;D

Perhaps a mild infection is a possible side-effect?

I joked that the CH demon made his last stand in my ear before he got evicted from my head. lol. Well worth the trouble, either way.

I'm glad your getting relief also.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 30th, 2011 at 9:25pm
PlayDoh, Eroc,

Regarding the congestion, coughing, ear infection and sinus squeeze...  Cause and coincidence are two different animals...  I've not seen anything about the above conditions in the literature about vitamin D3 except to use it as a treatment or preventative for them.

There is a slight possibility of a mild allergic reaction to the vitamin D3.  This is relatively rare and you would have already known about it long before taking any vitamin D3 as you would be allergic to the UVB in sunlight.  In short you would experience some kind of skin reaction with itching, inflammation, swelling and blisters nearly every time your skin was exposed to direct sunlight for more than a few minutes.

Signs of an allergic reaction to vitamin D3 supplements would include: hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat...  If you experience any of these symptoms, stop taking the entire anti-inflammatory regimen and see your doctor or PCP.

There's an easy way to see if you're having an allergic reaction to cholecalciferol...  Take a ball-point pen and draw a half-inch diameter circle on the inside of your forearm six to eight inches up from the wrist.  Then cut the tip off of a vitamin D3 softgel capsule and squeeze a drop into the circle.  Rub it in with a Q-tip or clean cotton ball and check it after 24 to 48 hours...  If you're using a tablet form of vitamin D3 crush a tablet between two spoons and add a few drops of water to make a paste then take a Q-tip and dab a bit of the paste in the circle and rub it in.

Signs of an allergic reaction would be redness and a slight swelling of the skin inside the circle. 

Now... before someone goes hyper over this...  there are any number of skin creams and lotions available that are formulated vitamin D3...  Again, see your PCP or neurologist if you think you're having an allergic reaction

PlayDoh... regarding tablets or liquid softgel forms of vitamin D3...  Your WallyWorld pharmacist is correct.  The liquid softgel capsules go into solution much faster... 

Having said that... we're talking vitamin D3 for its preventative effect and not as an acute treatment/abortive...  In this case we're taking enough vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) so our body can metabolize it into its primary metabolite, 25(OH)D for use and storage to build up reserves...

Think about vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D as being akin to a bear eating lots of salmon during the summer and getting fat...  During the winter when the bear hibernates...  his body burns the fat. 

We do much the same thing with the 25(OH)D.  During the winter months when we can't get exposed to sufficient sunlight while clad in a bathing suit w/o sun block to make more vitamin D3...  so our liver and kidneys can metabolize it into 25(OH)D...  we burn our reserves of 25(OH)D.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bsic on Dec 30th, 2011 at 10:48pm
10 days in and actually have been seeing an increase in frequency and intensity. :(. Still keeping the faith and taking the regimen daily

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Dec 30th, 2011 at 11:37pm
Thanks Pete.

bsic
Hang in there, it could take 30 days or more to get your levels right, and start to notice any effect.

Perhaps you might consider increasing your D3 intake to say, 15000 or 20,000 IU as I've read others have done. I'm sure Batch will advise you on the matter, if prudent. If he has the time, that is.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bsic on Dec 31st, 2011 at 8:14pm
Just got my blood work back from last week.  When I got it tested last week, a few days into the regimen, my D levels were at 20!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 31st, 2011 at 10:12pm

bsic wrote on Dec 31st, 2011 at 8:14pm:
Just got my blood work back from last week.  When I got it tested last week, a few days into the regimen, my D levels were at 20!

Was the 25(OH)D concentration in ng/mL or nmol/L?  In either case you're deficient in vitamin D3...  Big Time!

Check your PM InBox tomorrow morning.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bsic on Jan 1st, 2012 at 9:14am
Hey Batch,

It's in ng/mL, 20.9 to be exact.  Look fwd to your pm!

Happy new yr!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 1st, 2012 at 1:34pm
Hey Bsic,

Happy New Year to you too...   PM sent.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dorothy on Jan 4th, 2012 at 8:08am
It's been quite a while since I checked in here (long remission) and because I've found some really helpful info on these forums in the past - I came to find any I could pass on to someone who seems in desperate straits.  His Health Ins have stopped paying out for his meds and 02.  I couldn't believe all the stuff I found about the Vitamin D3 therapy.  I have osteoporosis and I am very remiss in taking my D3 but I'll be taking it from now on - along with some additional Omega 3.  Batch, I have used your oxygen advice to show people and had great results with it - I showed it to the manager of my oxygen provider - it was easier than trying to explain to him about hyperventilation being necessary and the info about C02 build up etc.  I just printed some of your stuff out and happily he read through it all.  He even came out to visit me and took it all on board.  He now liases with OUCH as they try to improve 02 therapy in the UK.  It's fantastic there are people like you out there battling the beast. 

Happy New Year!

Dorothy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by IndianaJohn on Jan 4th, 2012 at 1:35pm
Hi, I could use a little help please...

I am not sure I have the correct formulations for the D3 regimen.  I tried it starting Dec. 10 and found no relief.  This is what I bought at Walgreen's and the dosage below:

Current D3 Vitamins

D3                  Brand:  Finest Natural®, 5000 IU soft-gels, D3 as cholecalciferol. X2

Omega 3 Fish Oil      Brand:  Finest Natural®, 1000 mg soft-gels, 600 mg Total Omega-3 Fatty Acids, NO LISTING for EPA or DHA. X2

Calcium      Brand:  Walgreen's, Calcium Citrate Plus with Magnesium tablets. X1
     Vitamin D3 (as cholecalciferol) 250 IU
     Vitamin B-6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride) 10 mg
     Calcium (calcium citrate) 500 mg
     Magnesium (magnesium oxide) 80 mg
     Zinc (zinc oxide) 10 mg
     Copper (copper gluconate) 1 mg
     Manganese (manganese gluconate) 1 mg
     Boron (sodium borate) 1 mg

Magnesium      Brand: Nature Made®400 mg soft-gels X1

Potassium      Brand: Finest Natural®, Potassium Gluconate 595 mg (99 mg as Elemental Potassium), tablets. X1

8 oz. glass of lemonade from concentrate.

OTHER
Melatonin,       Brand: Nature Made®, 3 mg tablets. X2-4 at bedtime

Alive Men's energy mulitvitamin.

Next I kind of have a recent timeline of where I am at.

Current Timeline

Dec. 10, 2011      Started detox.  Off of all meds.  Started D3 regimen.

Dec. 29, 2011      Went to the doctor and got 60 mg Prednisone taper and 480 MG Verapamil ER.  Blood taken for Testosterone, CBC w/ sed rate, and 25(OH)D.  Received Oxygen set up for CH.  STOPPED D3 REGIMEN and Melatonin.

Jan. 1 – Jan. 2, 2012 Two nights no CH.
Jan. 3, 2012 Received blood test results.
Testosterone 401 – on low side
CBC normal
Sed rate normal, no inflammatory markers
25(OH)D = 31.8 ng/ml
Today, Jan.4, I talked to my GP about the result and I decided to restarted the D3 regimen at the above dosages. 

I am sorry this is so long, please bear with me.  My first question is about Vitamin K and Potassium.  Are they the same?  Am I over doing it with amount I'm taking above?  I realize my PF nights are more than likely due to the Pred.  But I was surprised my D3 levels were so low.  My next question is, are the formulations I bought adequate to cover the requirements of the D3 regimen?  Do they cover the basics?  Am I doing anything wrong?


Any insights or suggestions would be greatly appreciated....

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 4th, 2012 at 2:04pm
Hey Dorothy,

Thank you for the kind words...  but it's CH'ers like you who take the bull by the horns to educate doctors and home oxygen therapy providers that are making the real difference... 

You're providing the latest in continuing medical education (CME) with respect of oxygen therapy with hyperventilation as a safe and effective CH abortive, and the anti-inflammatory regimen as a safe and effective CH preventive.  Please keep it up... all physicians are required to accomplish CME each year...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 4th, 2012 at 2:23pm
Well Like so many on here, I haven't been on in a while. So log in fact I had to re-register. Anyways quick history. 30 plus year episodic. And like so many others, things that worked before don't work again. As I hit my 50's I was hoping for it to go away. My father who had CH went into remission at 49. While my last 3 cycles have been what I would call mild, this one right now is not. My cycle's and triggers seem to be different than most but after years and years of trying to figure it out I was pleasantly surprised to find This post. I have tried most preventative and abortive med's and what I've found at least for me anyways, that they seem to just prolong my cycle, so I don't use them anymore. So the whole vitamin thing is right up my alley. Started 10,000 IU of D3 and 4000 Omega 3 a week ago. The first couple of day's seemed like it was helping but it seems to be waring off. Of course I hadn't read the whole post through and didn't realize that calcium, Magnesium is needed as well so I started that today as well as Lemonade. Let you know what Happens............ On a side note, Batch. You and so many others on here are more valuable to me than any of the nuero's I've been too. Most of the time I feel like I know more about CH than they do. In any case I thank you all for sharing what helps you get through these things......

Best regards
Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 4th, 2012 at 2:24pm
Hey John,

Thank you for the "SITREP." You've got the right stuff...  The regimen you've selected is correct as well.  Your 25(OH)D lab results tell the story...  While the normal reference range for this metabolite of vitamin D3 is 30 to 90 ng/mL, the data I've collected from CH'ers who have gone pain free on this regimen suggests the target therapeutic range for a favorable response to this regimen is 60 to 90 ng/mL.  Restarting the anti-inflammatory regimen was a good move...

You need to increase your 25(OH)D concentration by 30 ng/mL.  Talk with your doctor about this...  At a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day, it could take as long as two weeks for you to build 25(OH)D concentration to 60 ng/mL.  Doubling the daily dose to 20,000 IU/day might get you there a little faster...  Some CH'ers are working through their PCP and dosing as high as 30,000 IU/day...

I know that may sound like a lot...  but our skin can make 15,000 IU vitamin D3 in as little as 15 minutes of direct sunlight clad in a bathing suit...  so in reality...  30,000 IU/day of vitamin D3 is no biggie...  Please keep us posted...

The basic rule of thumb is have your 25(OH)D concentrations tested every 30 days if you exceed 10,000 IU vitamin D3/day.  And when you do go PF, drop the dose back to 10,000 IU/day.  That should hold you in the target therapeutic range.

Thanks again for the SITREP and take care

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 4th, 2012 at 5:06pm
Hey Rick,

Thanks for the kind words.  We CH'ers have the advantage over most of the neurologists who treat us...  Necessity is the mother of invention, and pain is a great motivator... 

Few neurologists suffer through very painful conditions like ours... Finding one who does like Dr. Todd Rozen, M.D., a chronic migraineur, is like finding a kindred spirit who really understands what we face on a daily basis.  Makes a big difference... The rest we'll just need to educate for now.

As I've indicated in earlier posts on the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3...  having the lab test for 25(OH)D is a big help in knowing where you are in the process of building sufficient levels of this vitamin D3 metabolite we need to reach a therapeutic response.   

And if you are fortunate enough to number among the 70% of CH'ers who respond to this regimen, be sure to take the survey after you've had a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH or gone PF for a week or so.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dorothy on Jan 4th, 2012 at 7:19pm
Maybe if I start on this I won't go into cycle.....

Thank you for the advice Batch, I've passed on the link to a few people.   :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bsic on Jan 5th, 2012 at 8:41am
15 days in, upped my dosage of D on Sunday and am taking all the supplements.

Seems to be fewer and less intense hits.  1-2 hits per night which O2 is handling great but still need imitrex for some.  Prior to that, it was 3-4 hits per night and O2 didnt really touch them. Think Im making progress or just ending my cycle-- either way im happy.

This has been the longest and most brutal of all my years with CH.  I cant WAIT until its over.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 5th, 2012 at 10:39am
Hey Batch, I have a question for you. When do you take the calcium/mag/zinc and lemonade? Before, with or after the vitamins?

Thanks in advance
Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 5th, 2012 at 12:22pm

RTD wrote on Jan 5th, 2012 at 10:39am:
Hey Batch, I have a question for you. When do you take the calcium/mag/zinc and lemonade? Before, with or after the vitamins?

Thanks in advance
Rick


Rick,
I can answer that...WITH ;)! 
13+ of these horse pills all washed down with a tall glass of lemonade!  Good Luck!
-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 5th, 2012 at 12:32pm
Thanks Gregg............. You live in Las Vegas huh? Me too. 8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 5th, 2012 at 12:46pm
Hi Rick,
Yes, almost 20 years here in Sin City.  Anytime you want to get together for coffee, discuss ignorant Las Vegas neuros, etc; send me a PM and will meet and greet.
-Gregg

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 5th, 2012 at 1:24pm
So I take it you wouldn't recommend any LV Nuero's.... A meet and greet would be great.

Cheers
Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 5th, 2012 at 1:43pm
Rick,
Unfortunately, I have not found anybody who isn't ignorant and also egotistical prohibiting themselves from being educated by a 32 yr experienced CH sufferer.

Check your PM inbox for my phone #.
-Gregg

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 5th, 2012 at 10:14pm
Hey Dorothy,

Thanks for the plug...  Having more CH'ers try this simple regimen is going to result in more CH'ers discovering just how effective it can be in preventing CH...

Rick, Gregg, glad to see you two have made a connection.  I'm sure you'll have much to exchange as a meet between CH'ers is always a hoot.

Rick, regarding when to take the anti-inflammatory supplements...  As long as you're taking calcium citrate and no more than 500 mg in one dose, you can take it any time of the day...  If you're looking to maximize the buffering effect of calcium citrate and citric acid from lemonade or other fruit juice high in citric acid, taking the calcium citrate is best done an hour to half hour prior to the evening meal washed down with the lemonade.  This will have the calcium citrate completely dissolve and the buffer active when the stomach starts producing more acid to help digest the food you eat.

If you're taking calcium carbonate, it's best taken with food as this form of calcium requires an acidic pH to dissolve.  In short, take it just prior to or just after the evening meal.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 6th, 2012 at 12:05am
So I've been having a problem with, um, regularity which has become an issue for a few months before starting the regime. Yet 3 days ago I took some Ex-lax "gentle nature" with senna. I took some a couple hours after dinner, say 7 and again before bed at 11.

I also take an anti-depressant (SSRI), and I could feel withdraw symtoms just before I went to bed. SSRI's have a very short half-life, meaning they wear off and are out of your system in a day or so. Now when I woke up the next day, I felt like I hadn't taken an anti-depressant in 2 days, the withdraw symptoms were so bad.

Did I mention I got 2 kip 1-3's that night also? That tells me the regime is definitely keeping me PF, and I'm still in cycle.

The moral of the story is if your digestive system isn't operating normally, then your D3 regime probably wont be as effective. And, stay away from laxatives, at least during the first couple months or so.

I think I'll bump myself up to 15,000 IU D3 till I see my Dr in a couple weeks. I seem to be just getting enough D3 to stay PF. Yet that's a guess.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 6th, 2012 at 12:17am
Playdoh,
I think you make a great argument to speculate. 

Many Verapamil users get constipated as a side effect of the med.  I was one of the lucky ones and increased my daily fiber to avoid constipation. 

If your theory is correct, maybe that is why this vitamin regimen did not work for me. 

Curious what Niels and Batch have to say about your theory!? ::)

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dorothy on Jan 6th, 2012 at 5:33am
I'm loving these posts, it's all so positive!  I've been looking at OUCH's facebook page and there's a lady on there who is taking the high dose vitamin D3 so the word is getting out  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dorothy on Jan 6th, 2012 at 5:36am
someone has just asked me for the link  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jan 6th, 2012 at 9:10am
Keep spreading the good news!  ;) I'm convinced the regimen is why my fall cycle never materialized, I'm a year rounder on this regimen for good.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 6th, 2012 at 10:47am
Batch,
I don't know if I'm doing this wrong and unfortunately sometimes don't understand your vast knowledge of how this all works. I started the with 10,000 IU-D3/4000 omega3 a week ago. Went and got the Nature Made Calcium 333mg/Mag 133 mg/zinc 5 mg/D3 200 IU and started taking that 3 days ago. Took 1 the first day. 2 the next 2 days. I'm a little confused on the difference between Calcium Carbonate and Calcium Citrate. In any case I notice you said in an earlier post no more than 500 mg of Calcium, which by taking two a day I'm getting 666 mg. Is that too much? Should I change to Calcium Citrate?... The reason I ask is because I'm not having much success and while I know some things work for some and not for others, I want to give this regime a fair shake to work especially since there seems to be zero side effects. Through the years and all the stuff that I've tried and had work one time and not the next I'm not surprised. I appreciate you taking the time with this and your patience with me.

Thanks
Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 6th, 2012 at 4:47pm
Hey Rick,

Good questions and I'm glad you've started the anti-inflammatory regimen...  I think you'll find that was a wise decision...

It looks like I should have explained the calcium dosing strategy a little better... 

For starters... You're ok in splitting the calcium supplement dose to twice a day...   The calcium to magnesium ratio is also excellent in the supplements you're taking...  There's no consensus on the best calcium to magnesium ratio but it appears that anywhere in a range of 4:1 down to 1:1 is acceptable. 

According to the experts at the Vitamin D Council, magnesium is one of the most important "Cofactors" that enable vitamin D3 to be metabolized into 25(OH)D.  Vitamin K2, Zinc and Boron are the other cofactors.

See:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE for an explanation of why we need to take these cofactors when taking vitamin D3.

This link also has another link to ZRT Labs where you can order a 25(OH)D home blood spot test kit for $65 and you don't need an Rx or a trip to the doctor's office...  I have two of the kits sitting next to my computer...

Regarding the dosing limits on calcium... The body can only process 500-600 mg of calcium effectively in a single dose...  any more than that and the excess calcium goes down the drain without doing any good...  No bad side effects... you're just not getting the best bang for the buck...

As far as the difference between calcium carbonate and calcium citrate...  Both can be effective, but you get better bioavailability (better absorption so more reaches your system) with calcium citrate or calcium gluconate than with calcium carbonate.  Calcium carbonate has a stronger chemical bond that requires a low pH (more acid) to break down or disassociate into it's ionic components and into the bloodstream...  Accordingly,  calcium carbonate should be taken with food so the hydrochloric acid in the stomach can break it down...

You're doing great at this point and the only thing I'd suggest is to ask your PCP or neurologist for the lab test for 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D so you'll know where you are in the process of elevating the level of this vitamin D3 metabolite up and into the therapeutic range for cluster headache.

Data I've collected from CH'ers who have gone pain free of their CH while taking this regimen and posted the results of their 25(OH)D lab tests, suggest the target therapeutic range of 25(OH)D concentrations needed to remain PF of cluster headache is 60-90 ng/mL, (150-225 nmol/L).

Assuming normal kidney and liver functions, the average adult will metabolize vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D and increase its serum concentration by 0.444 ng/mL/day at a dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3...

So let's use the following example to show why some CH'ers respond to this regimen in a few days while others take up to three weeks to a month... or much longer before going PF.

Let's say your 25(OH)D tested at 20 ng/mL before starting the anti-inflammatory regimen and you need to have it at 60 ng/ml in order to be PF from your CH.  That means you need to increase the concentration of your 25(OH)D by 40 ng/mL.

If you do the math...  Divide 40 ng/mL by 0.444 ng/mL/day and you get 90 days...  That means it could take 90 days at a dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to experience a favorable reaction to the anti-inflammatory regimen... because it would take that long to build 25(OH)D reserves to a therapeutic concentration...

Although responses to the On-Line Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Survey are coming in slower than I'd hoped, the time to respond to this regimen is holding consistent. 

So far the Survey data suggests that most CH'ers will respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen with a significant favorable change in CH patters within 10 days after starting this regimen and nearly all who do have a favorable response, are pain free by the end of the third week...  Two have taken as long as a month.

Bottom line...  take the test for 25(OH)D even if you've already started the anti-inflammatory regimen...  and take it again after you've gone pain free.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Jan 6th, 2012 at 8:45pm
Hey Gang,
I had an interesting email from my pcp today.  Two days ago after 3 weeks on the vitamin d therapy I had my 25(OH) D level tested.  (She didn't leave me the units for the level but since we're in Canada I'm going to assume that the level is in nmol/L so I'll convert to ng/ml for simplicity)  The vit D level was at 23.6 ng/ml. 
I have noticed since the start of the therapy that the headache intensity has dropped.  At 2.5 weeks I was wondering why I was still getting milder hits.  I can see the reason now.  Even at the low Vit D level I had a hit yesterday that I was able to kill off with just tylenol. 
I'm excited to try and get my D level up to the optimal level in the 60 - 90 ng/ml range.  I might even be able to break out the alcohol again. 


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 6th, 2012 at 9:33pm
Hey MM&I,

Great SITREP!  Woo Hoo!!!  I still find it very exciting to hear that this simple regimen of vitamin D3 and mineral supplements has given another CH'er back a quality of life none of us thought possible with CH...

The important thing to remember now before you get cocky like I did and stop taking this regimen... (I did it as a stress test of my 25(OH)D reserves and got nailed 8 days later...) is the anti-inflammatory regimen not a cure...  It's only a preventative and you still have CH.

You'll need to stay on this regimen for life if you're a chronic CH'er...  and there are several episodic CH'ers who are staying on this regimen while out of cycle with the hope it will prevent the next cycle...

Accordingly, if you can swing it, try to have your 25(OH)D tested again after going pain free and staying that way for at least a week...  We're all a little different in the rates that we produce and burn 25(OH)D...  so this lab test should give you the lower boundary of your 25(OH)D therapeutic range for CH...  That will be an important number to remember as will the number of days it took to get there and go pain free at a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Jan 7th, 2012 at 9:29am
Thanks for the kind words Batch,
I was 23.6 ng/ml after three weeks on the therapy.  Using your .444 ng/ml/day as a rough guide I've raised my 25(oh) D level 6.6 ng/ml in three weeks.  That appears, for me, to drive the beast down.  I'm hopeful that another couple of weeks on the regimen those mild hits will disappear. 
Another interesting thing that my pcp suggested in the email that I take vit d (she must have forgotten about me telling the dose I was on) to raise my D level to a minimum of 32 ng/ml. 
I want to throw out a hypothesis that I would love to hear what the group thinks.  What if CH, for some of us, isn't the disease but a symptom?  For those of us that the vit D regimen has been successful, perhaps the CH is the result of an extremely low Vit D level.  Maybe keeping our vit D levels in the 60 to 90 ng/ml will keep the beast at bay.   

ttyl  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 7th, 2012 at 10:22am
MM&I,

Interesting hypothesis... I've had similar thoughts...  On face value, the relationship between 25(OH)D levels and CH appears closely akin to that of rickets where a lack of vitamin D, calcium or phosphates leads to softening and weakening of the bones.

Unfortunately, there are so many factors and interrelated neurochemical processes involved in the pathogenesis of cluster headache, there's no way I can get my head around them, let alone understand how they relate to increased levels of 25(OH)D...  Why 30% of the CH'ers who try this regimen don't respond begs even more questions...

That's why I've opened up a few of the giants in the field of neurology specializing in our disorder with information about this regimen... I've sent them the response data I've collected so far from CH'ers like you who have taken the ant-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 and had their 25(OH)D level tested along with my own observations. 

Hopefully we can come up with the funding to buy them the time and facilities needed to answer questions like yours.

Take care and ttfn,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 7th, 2012 at 10:33am
Thanks for the info on the Calcium Batch. I think I'm understanding it now. I'll keep plugging away on this and remain hopeful. Its actually cheaper for me to get the 25(OH)D test done at the doc. I need to get him to script me some O2 anyways. I definitely wanna try that again as I don't think I gave it a fair shake the first time around.................. On a side note I had to chuckle a little bit when I read how many of us use the "Beer Test" when we think the cycle is over.......... I thought I was the only one. ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bsic on Jan 8th, 2012 at 8:53am

bsic wrote on Jan 5th, 2012 at 8:41am:
15 days in, upped my dosage of D on Sunday and am taking all the supplements.

Seems to be fewer and less intense hits.  1-2 hits per night which O2 is handling great but still need imitrex for some.  Prior to that, it was 3-4 hits per night and O2 didnt really touch them. Think Im making progress or just ending my cycle-- either way im happy.

This has been the longest and most brutal of all my years with CH.  I cant WAIT until its over.


About 2.5 weeks in now-- upped my D3 to from 15,000 to 20,000 UI on Thursday.  Friday was my FIRST PAIN FREE NIGHT since early Dec.    And followed by a second last night!!

I did get VERY weak hits shortly after waking up in the AM (fully rested, i might add!).  But they were aborted in 2-3 min with O2, incredibly fast.

Just thought id share-- if you dont see results in a few days dont get discouraged, keep the regimen up and possibly increase your D3!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jan 8th, 2012 at 9:29am
Great news to start a Sunday with. Keep beasty in full retreat! ;)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 8th, 2012 at 1:47pm
Here's some food for thought. When I first started this regime I was only taking 1200 IU of D3 for almost the first week. Yet at day 2 I was PF. I was taking 1200 mg of Calcium Citrate with D3 (200 IU). In 4 pills (300 mg Calcium times 4). I was also taking 4 1000 mg Omega 3 and a multi-vitamin.

Since I realized that it only takes a single missed day to get Pain again, I thought I'd taper each ingredient to find which ingredient(s) were doing me the most CH-free benefit.

Well yesterday I only took 2 Calcium Citrate with D3 pills (600 mg Calcium) and this morning I have a definite shadow/ baby CH.

I've only had pain when I either delayed my daily dose by over 12 hours, or when I took a laxative, so I think its noteworthy.

ATTN Las Vegas, MM&I, and all others not getting relief or complete relief from the regime. I would consider increasing your Calcium Citrate intake to 1200 mg, since for me I suspect its potentially the "Main ingredient" and 600 mg doesn't seem to be enough.

I don't like to go against anything Batch suggests, yet my results seem pretty clear.

Perhaps there are 2 or more ways to be D3 deficient? Since D3 needs Calcium to get absorbed, perhaps being Calcium deficient get you to the same place, D3 deficient. Yet taking more D3 wont eliminate your deficiency.

Either way, I've been taking 1200 mg of Calcium Citrate for almost a month now, and have had no ill effects of doing so.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jan 8th, 2012 at 3:49pm
PlayDoh - I believe the key component, besides D3, is magnesium. It has critical impact om how the body uses the D3.  If your really want to experiment, drop Mg.

Magnesium is best taken i two doses, morning and evening. I've been doing that for more than a month now, and haven't had a single shadow.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 8th, 2012 at 3:59pm
At first the only Magnesium I was taking was in the multi-vitamin at 100 mg. That's not a tiny amount I suppose, but its nearly as likely a key-component.

Since then I've upped my Magnesium 500 mg with separate Magnesium supplements, so now I'm at 600 mg.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll be doing some more experiments, for my own curiosity.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Jan 8th, 2012 at 7:32pm
Hi PlayDoh

I have been pain free for 3 years and started my treatment with vitamin-D3 and Magnesium. Later I added Zinc and Boron to my regime.

I havn't taken any Calcium besides what I get from my diet. To much Calcium from suplement and milk, is maybe one of the major factors in a lot of diseases. Vitamin-D3 don't need Calcium to get absorbed, but when taking Vitamin-D3, you will get more Calcium absorbed from your diet.

At the moment I take:

7000 IU Vitamin-D3 (Vitamin-D level = 60 ng/ml)
600 mg Magnesium Citrate (Don't take Magnesium Oxide)
30 mg Zinc Citrate
3 mg Boron

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 9th, 2012 at 8:45am
Don't know if its because I changed from Calcium Carbonate to Calcium Citrate or because I upped my D3 dose from  10,000 IU to 15,000 IU or because I met another Cluster head for the first time but I had a real good day/night yesterday. Only 1 five minute k2 last night. Hopefully this is really starting to work for me................ Really enjoyed meeting Las Vegas Gregg and his girlfriend yesterday.

Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 9th, 2012 at 4:38pm
Awesome Rick. Calcium Citrate is a lot better from what I read, as its gets absorbed much easier. I read if you put a pill in some sider-vineger (which is similar to stomach acid) and check it in an hour to see if its dissolved, you can see how Calcium Citrate is better then Carbonate.

Was only 2 days till I went PF, so fingers crossed for ya.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Jan 9th, 2012 at 10:18pm

PlayDoh wrote on Jan 8th, 2012 at 1:47pm:


ATTN Las Vegas, MM&I, and all others not getting relief or complete relief from the regime. I would consider increasing your Calcium Citrate intake to 1200 mg, since for me I suspect its potentially the "Main ingredient" and 600 mg doesn't seem to be enough.

I don't like to go against anything Batch suggests, yet my results seem pretty clear.

Perhaps there are 2 or more ways to be D3 deficient? Since D3 needs Calcium to get absorbed, perhaps being Calcium deficient get you to the same place, D3 deficient. Yet taking more D3 wont eliminate your deficiency.


That is a very interesting observation you have found.  I've found over the last few days that the vit d regimen has been very effective.  I've been pf for the last three days.  As I mentioned to Batch in a previous post perhaps CH for some of us isn't the disease but a symptom.  In your case it could be low calcium.  I've had a full blood workup from my doctor at the start of January (including 25(OH)D and free testosterone) and the only item to come back low was the Vit D. 
I think it's important to try and look at all aspects of our health and eliminate any issues.  After suffering with CH for 10 years I finally got off my butt a couple of years ago and utilized my health care system to get to the bottom of a couple of issues.  After years of nagging I finally allowed my wife (a nurse) to book me a sleep study and talk to a sleep specialist.  The results from the sleep doctor were crazy.  It turned out that while I slept my O2 levels were dropping into the very low 70's when I slept and I had an upper airway restriction that prevented me from breathing through my nose while I slept.  After surgery to repair the upper airway restriction and CPAP to control the night time airflow I had knocked the CH down to two major episodic hits per year.  Talking with my sleep doctor a couple of weeks ago there is some early studies looking into the link between sleep apnea and CH.  I was told that 1 in 7 people usually need CPAP to prevent OSA and some of those could be triggering CH.  If we are using O2 to hyperventilate to abort perhaps lack of O2 is causing. 
I've looked into the upper airway restriction a little bit and my information shows that mouth breathing can cause a change in the blood gas levels.  As Batch has shown earlier in the thread a small change in the PH of the body can have a dramatic effect on CH. 
I'm not trying to imply that this will work for everyone but the OSA, airway issue and low Vit D level all seemed to be contributing factors for CH for me.  Hopefully with these issues out of the way I may have finally gained an upper hand on the beast. 
I am excited to see the prospects of what the next year will bring.  Hopefully many more pain free days ahead.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 10th, 2012 at 10:55am
Its almost like I'm afraid to post my progress with the vitamins for fear of jinxing it but I feel like it just might be having some effect. I do feel like the Calcium citrate is having a much better effect than the carbonate. In any case after having only a short K2 the day before, yesterday was a short lived K3 during the day and a 5 minute K2 in the early evening before bed. Slept good all night which is what is starting to make me a believer. ........ Fingers crossed

Rick ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 10th, 2012 at 11:11am
Hey Rick,

The news from you just keeps getting better...  I wouldn't worry about jinxing your present CH pattern...  as long as you continue with the vitamin D3 and the rest of the cofactor mineral supplements.

What brand of calcium citrate are you taking?  If it's the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate, two tablets (500 mg. calcium) also contain 800 I.U. vitamin D3.  If another brand, check the assay for vitamin D3.

I suspect the improvement in your CH pattern with the drop in frequency and severity of your CH is due to the extra vitamin D3 in the calcium citrate tablets.

If I'm correct, you should be able to go completely PF by adding another 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to your present intake of this supplement.

Please let me know.

And for the rest of the readers, if you've been using this regimen and haven't taken the Anti-Inflammatory Survey at the following link, please do so...

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I figure there are at least another 75 to 80 of you out there who haven't taken this survey.
Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 10th, 2012 at 11:26am
Okay Batch, now I'm getting confused again. I thought you said only 500 mg Calcium citrate a day? That we can't absorb more than that. I should be taking 2 day? Like a morning and evening thing? Also I'm at 15000 IU D3 now. You suggest an additional 5000 IU a day? And yes it is the Kirkland brand Calcium citrate.

Thanks again Batch
Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 10th, 2012 at 11:29am

RTD wrote on Jan 9th, 2012 at 8:45am:
Don't know if its because I changed from Calcium Carbonate to Calcium Citrate or because I upped my D3 dose from  10,000 IU to 15,000 IU or because I met another Cluster head for the first time but I had a real good day/night yesterday. Only 1 five minute k2 last night. Hopefully this is really starting to work for me................ Really enjoyed meeting Las Vegas Gregg and his girlfriend yesterday.

Rick



RTD,
Good to meet you too brother.  Hopefully this vitamin regimen works for you.
-GTD ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 10th, 2012 at 11:39am
Gregg,

I have a feeling we'll be bro's for life. We're too much alike. Plus wifey wants to meet you two.

Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 10th, 2012 at 1:26pm

RTD wrote on Jan 10th, 2012 at 11:26am:
Okay Batch, now I'm getting confused again. I thought you said only 500 mg Calcium citrate a day? That we can't absorb more than that. I should be taking 2 day? Like a morning and evening thing? Also I'm at 15000 IU D3 now. You suggest an additional 5000 IU a day? And yes it is the Kirkland brand Calcium citrate.

Thanks again Batch
Rick


2 a day (500mg of Calcium) is the recommendation. spreading them out is probably a good tactic. And I'm pretty sure he's suggesting 20,000 IU of D3.

Yet check your Calcium Citrate bottle to see how much Vitamin D(3) is in them. then subtract 20,000 from how much is in your Calcium Citrate total, and then take the resulting numbers worth of D3 supplement.

I.E   Calcium Citrate pill contains  250 mg Calcium and 400 IU of Vitamin D(3) then 2 pills are 500 mg Calcium Citrate and 800 IU Vitamin D(3)

20,000 IU recommended intake, minus 800 from Calcium pills = 14,000 IU D(3) you need to supplement with D3 pills.


If it's the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate, two tablets (500 mg. calcium) also contain 800 I.U. vitamin D3.

If I'm correct, you should be able to go completely PF by adding another 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to your present intake of this supplement.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 10th, 2012 at 1:43pm
Well I did another experiment yesterday/today. I took only 900 mg of Calcium Citrate yesterday, and again this morning I had a Kip 1.

I'm afraid to miss a day of Calcium all together, but I suppose I should later. I know a couple times in the past month I took only 600 mg of Calcium, and a couple times I got small hits, but I didn't keep a diary (never have), so maybe I just didn't connect the dots earlier.

I've been looking at my diet to see how much Calcium I'm getting and its not a lot. I certainly don't eat my "5-6 fruits and veggie servings a day", plus I usually don't eat until dinner time, which also isn't good.

Too much calcium can be harmful, so please don't think I'm suggesting everyone take 1200 mg, and although some sources I've read concur with Batch's "500 mg is all the body can absorb at once", my head seems to disagree.

A good source (JAMA) suggested "no more than 1.2 to 1.5 grams per day" (1200 mg to 1500 mg).

So it seems my 1200 with little diet intake, is safe and withing guidelines.

If your not PF with the 500 mg Calcium, within a month or so, I think its worth a try. It seems to be immediate results for me, as in the pills I take today effect me completely tomorrow. So if you did give 1200 mg Calcium a try and didn't see results right away, I wouldn't suggest you continue for more then a week.

And again, I'm not a Dr or have any medical education. It would be best to discuss it with someone who is educated, like a Dr or Pharmacist.

I'm also basing this on 2 separate days of "conclusion", which isn't definitive by any standard. Yet if your head is splitting, I think trying safe, but unproven therapies is worthwhile. I know I'd try it in a heart beat.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by IndianaJohn on Jan 10th, 2012 at 1:52pm
Just to add my own 2 cents worth....

I am on the D3 regimen at 30,000 IU/day in order to get my levels up before my Pred taper runs out.  I was having some pretty good shadows and other minor HA's.  I increased my calcium dosage from 500 mg/day to 1000 mg/day and the shadows stopped.

So there may indeed be a connection....

John

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm

MemyselfandI wrote on Jan 9th, 2012 at 10:18pm:
That is a very interesting observation you have found.  I've found over the last few days that the vit d regimen has been very effective.  I've been pf for the last three days.  As I mentioned to Batch in a previous post perhaps CH for some of us isn't the disease but a symptom.  In your case it could be low calcium.  I've had a full blood workup from my doctor at the start of January (including 25(OH)D and free testosterone) and the only item to come back low was the Vit D. 
I think it's important to try and look at all aspects of our health and eliminate any issues.  After suffering with CH for 10 years I finally got off my butt a couple of years ago and utilized my health care system to get to the bottom of a couple of issues.  After years of nagging I finally allowed my wife (a nurse) to book me a sleep study and talk to a sleep specialist.  The results from the sleep doctor were crazy.  It turned out that while I slept my O2 levels were dropping into the very low 70's when I slept and I had an upper airway restriction that prevented me from breathing through my nose while I slept.  After surgery to repair the upper airway restriction and CPAP to control the night time airflow I had knocked the CH down to two major episodic hits per year.  Talking with my sleep doctor a couple of weeks ago there is some early studies looking into the link between sleep apnea and CH.  I was told that 1 in 7 people usually need CPAP to prevent OSA and some of those could be triggering CH.  If we are using O2 to hyperventilate to abort perhaps lack of O2 is causing. 
I've looked into the upper airway restriction a little bit and my information shows that mouth breathing can cause a change in the blood gas levels.  As Batch has shown earlier in the thread a small change in the PH of the body can have a dramatic effect on CH. 
I'm not trying to imply that this will work for everyone but the OSA, airway issue and low Vit D level all seemed to be contributing factors for CH for me.  Hopefully with these issues out of the way I may have finally gained an upper hand on the beast. 
I am excited to see the prospects of what the next year will bring.  Hopefully many more pain free days ahead.


Very, Very interesting! I've thought about sleep issues for a long time. I posted a survey on sleep positions, as I figured my stomach sleeping could be a culprit.

At first, 12 years ago, I only got a CH when I either drank alcohol, or took a nap at lunchtime. I would nap on this couch at work, and later suspected my neck position could be responsible.

Now a days I snore, and often wake up with a dry-stuffed nose, and I also get night hits almost exclusively. Coincidence?

I like your train of thought, that perhaps CH'ers have a trigeminal nerve that's constricted or something, that causes it to be irritated when inflamed by blood pressure or CO2 levels. From multiple sources.

I read about a woman who had part of her trigeminal nerve severed via surgery and part of her face is numb. She's been CH pain free for over 5 years.

Now perhaps our trigeminal nerve, or its surroundings is the factor that makes a CH possible. And if conditions cause pressure on it, the result is a CH. Maybe for some there are multiple "conditions" that cause pressure/CH. Maybe for some its a form of sleep apnea or poor breathing while sleeping?

Like you said, CH is the symptom, not the condition. That might offend some people, who feel it belittles their pain, yet really its semantics.

Its likely, IMO, a symphony of conditions that precipitate a CH.

I hope I'm not 'Hi-Jacking' this tread, yet at 22 pages I think its too late to worry about that. lol

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 10th, 2012 at 2:08pm
PlayDoh
CH.com Junior
**




     




2 a day (500mg of Calcium) is the recommendation. spreading them out is probably a good tactic. And I'm pretty sure he's suggesting 20,000 IU of D3.

Yet check your Calcium Citrate bottle to see how much Vitamin D(3) is in them. then subtract 20,000 from how much is in your Calcium Citrate total, and then take the resulting numbers worth of D3 supplement.

I.E   Calcium Citrate pill contains  250 mg Calcium and 400 IU of Vitamin D(3) then 2 pills are 500 mg Calcium Citrate and 800 IU Vitamin D(3)

20,000 IU recommended intake, minus 800 from Calcium pills = 14,000 IU D(3) you need to supplement with D3 pills.


If it's the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate, two tablets (500 mg. calcium) also contain 800 I.U. vitamin D3.

If I'm correct, you should be able to go completely PF by adding another 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to your present intake of this supplement.





Thanks for your imput. Yes it is the Kirkland brand which says 500 mg on the bottle but of course I didn't read the serving size say's 2 pills a day so I'll give that a go. I'm going to wait 1 more day on the D3 because I just upped it too 15000 IU   (3 5000 IU)2 days ago and want to give that one more day. So in actuality I'm on 16600 a day because of the 800 IU in the calcium.

Thanks again
Rick ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 11th, 2012 at 9:51am
Unfortunately yesterday wasn't so good. 2 daytime K 3-4's and 2 nighttime K6-7's. The only thing I did different was taking 2 of the Calcium citrate instead of one. I'm gonna try going back to the 1 CC see if that changes things and also increase to 20.000 IU D3............... Still hopeful.

Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chad on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:03pm
When I first started this regimen at the very beginning of my cycle 4 weeks ago, it seemed to work almost immediately, however I'm still in cycle getting hit 3-4x/day.  Mainly though the night.  I am also dosing with rc seeds every 5 days.  My vitamin D3 intake is now 15,000 iu, 500 mg calcium citrate and 500 mg magnesium.  I took Batches survey 3 days after the start of the regimen and I should have waited because I am not getting relief up to this point.  I got the usual dandy hits after dosing, but a great nights sleep.  Usually by day 3 the seeds bog down the cycle.  I think I will try increasing the calcium citrate to 1000mg spread out over the day to see what happens.  I got nothing to lose.  This is always an experiment with hope :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cosworth on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:08pm
Here's my update: I think I jumped in here around p. 20 or so :)  I began heavy shadowing around Dec.22nd (or so) and was quite sure cycle was starting. I'm Episodic and tend to get one long cycle (2-3 months) each year.  I began the vitamin regimen pretty quickly upon learning about it and i'd say by the 24th I was on board.   I'm doing around 11,ooo IU's D3, 600 mg. Calcium citrate (all at once), Multivitamin, 500 mg. Magnesium, plus around 3000 mg Omega 3's (fish oil) per day.  I actually take the fish oil during the morning and night.  I have not had a significant hit (no more than a kip2) since this started. I have continued to shadow off and on pretty consistently each day which if nothing else confirms for me 100%  that I was definitely beginning a cycle. I wondered if this could have been a "false start" to a cycle which has happened to me before but I think now this was definitely a cycle starting and by now i'd usually be in full blown 2-5 clusters a day in the 6+ kp range.   I'm wondering which would be the #1 item in the regimen to increase to try and stop the shadowing?  I guess i'll start one at a time to increase and hopefully i'll be able to isolate which one does the trick! I' m so hopeful that this may be a long term solution to this disease and that it will provide relief to many of you out there on this board.   (Batch, gonna go take the survey)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cosworth on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:12pm
I saw someone post earlier (and now i can't find it) about what type of Magnesium to take. I'm taking Magnesium Oxide. I think the poster said don't take this type and instead take Magnesium Citrate?   Can anyone answer this one? Is Magnesium Oxide bad?   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:15pm

Cosworth wrote on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:12pm:
I saw someone post earlier (and now i can't find it) about what type of Magnesium to take. I'm taking Magnesium Oxide. I think the poster said don't take this type and instead take Magnesium Citrate?   Can anyone answer this one? Is Magnesium Oxide bad?   


Magnesium Citrate is what is recommended for this vitamin regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 11th, 2012 at 3:18pm
Chad,
I hope it works for you, and interested to say the least. Would you say your diet could be lacking in Calcium? I've never given it much thought, but I have to admit mine is certainly lacking.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chad on Jan 11th, 2012 at 3:38pm
Playdoh,  I need to research my diet more.  I eat the same thing almost daily.
I start with whole wheat peanut butter toast for breakfast, then a banana for snack.  Salad or tuna sandwich for lunch, yogurt for snack, balance meal for dinner.  I refrain from milk and eggs due to my cholesterol. So, I need to see how much calcium is in these foods as I'm a nutritional idiot, lol!  I'm increasing my calcim citrate today to 1000mg.  I already took 500 and looking to take another 500 at bed time.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chad on Jan 11th, 2012 at 3:40pm

LasVegas wrote on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:15pm:
Magnesium Citrate is what is recommended for this vitamin regimen.

...recommended, but is the mag oxide ok?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 11th, 2012 at 3:42pm

Chad wrote on Jan 11th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

LasVegas wrote on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:15pm:
Magnesium Citrate is what is recommended for this vitamin regimen.

...recommended, but is the mag oxide ok?


Don't know, Batch and Niels would be the two to ask as they created this vitamin regimen.  Might want to PM them with your inquiry for fast reply ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 11th, 2012 at 5:25pm

Chad wrote on Jan 11th, 2012 at 3:38pm:
Playdoh,  I need to research my diet more.  I eat the same thing almost daily.
I start with whole wheat peanut butter toast for breakfast, then a banana for snack.  Salad or tuna sandwich for lunch, yogurt for snack, balance meal for dinner.  I refrain from milk and eggs due to my cholesterol. So, I need to see how much calcium is in these foods as I'm a nutritional idiot, lol!  I'm increasing my calcim citrate today to 1000mg.  I already took 500 and looking to take another 500 at bed time.



That's pretty healthy compared to mine, yet I have no idea how much calcium is in any of those either.

I too avoid milk, yet I suppose I should try a glass here and there. I have a 15 month old daughter so there's plenty of the white stuff around. lol

I read something interesting lately, that Dr's entire education on diet is a one course, like a 3 hour lesson. And that most of the info is generated by the Dairy and Meat producers.

Not sure about the last part, but its sad to think that Dr's are trained nearly completely to use the Prescription pad. Although that might not be fair to say, since one could argue that Dieticians are a Dr's only necessary tool regarding diet issues.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 11th, 2012 at 8:45pm
I wish 2-3 months was a long cycle for me :-/

I'm like 6-7 months.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jan 11th, 2012 at 10:51pm

Cosworth wrote on Jan 11th, 2012 at 2:12pm:
I saw someone post earlier (and now i can't find it) about what type of Magnesium to take. I'm taking Magnesium Oxide. I think the poster said don't take this type and instead take Magnesium Citrate?   Can anyone answer this one? Is Magnesium Oxide bad?   


Magnesium Oxide is not bad, but it is considered to have very low "bio-availability".  Only 4-6% is absorbed.  I avoid it. Magnesium  chloride, lactade, citrate, sulfate, malate, glycinate are all considered to be better.  Generally also more expensive.

Getting Mg from food is best, I suppose.  See Table 1 from extensive list of  good Mg sources:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 12th, 2012 at 9:44am
ShazBot!  It sounds like we're approaching agreement... However, I think it's wise to review the bidding and rationale for the dosing strategies used in the anti-inflammatory regimen of vitamin and mineral supplements.

Just in case some of the comments have thrown a head & shoulder fake to readers coming late to this discussion... the Basic and Complete Anti-inflammatory Regimen Treatment Protocol and Dosing Guide is located at the following link:

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Let me start by saying the basic anti-inflammatory regimen amounts to a conservatively stacked deck as a CH preventative with respect to the supplement doses and their ratios.  With the exception of the vitamin D3, the remaining supplements are at or below their respective Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDA).   

I arrived at the composition of the present basic regimen after consulting with with experts in nutrition, endocrinology, and integrative medicine.  As we gather more information, I expect there will be room for fine tuning the amounts and ratios of these supplements.  The beauty of a forum like this is that there's room for differing opinions on this regimen... like taking more calcium or not taking any at all.  What's even more important, is the rationale behind these opinions, and are the results repeatable.

That said, when we contrast the efficacy of this regimen with the leading standards of care preventative, verapamil,  the present regimen is doing just fine.  That 70% of the 100 + CH'ers who started this regimen have a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH, and that 66% of them are pain free and remain that way trumps verapamil with at best 50% efficacy per the results of the Cluster Headache Survey 1134 of us took.

So let's review the present regimen.  The suggested dose for vitamin D3 is 10,000 IU/day. This is a very safe therapeutic dose.  That amount may be a little high for a maintenance dose for some CH'ers while others may require an even higher dose to stay pain free... and that suggests an even higher therapeutic dose...  If you look at the following graph of 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3 dose, you'll see what I mean.  It doesn't take too much imagination to draw another curve for a dose of 15,000 or 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to see that the initial rise in the slope of 25(OH)D concentration is steeper and that it arrives in the green zone at 60 ng/mL in much less time.

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I've overlaid lab test results for 25(OH)D from several CH'ers before and after going pain free using the anti-inflammatory regimen.  What this graph tells us follows:  For a given daily intake of vitamin D3, we reach a corresponding serum level of 25(OH)D, that it reaches equilibrium and stabilizes at a steady state value after 5 to 6 months.  What it also tells us is the higher the daily intake of vitamin D3, the rise in 25(OH)D is faster, it reaches the green zone in fewer days, and the resulting stable serum level of 25(OH)D is higher after 5 to 6 months.

The important thing to remember about supplementing with vitamin D3 is that without a lab test for 25(OH)D, it's principal metabolite, our only measure of merit is the dose related response as evidenced by a favorable change in CH pattern, i.e., reduction in frequency and severity of CH with the goal of going completely pain free and staying that way. 

The second point is to correlate lab test results of 25(OH)D concentrations to a change in CH pattern that's keeping the beast away if the level is high enough. 

From the data I've collected thanks to many of you who've had this lab test and posted the results, the target therapeutic range to stay pain free appears to be 60-90 ng/mL (150-225 nmol/L) for most of us...  Some may require an even higher concentration upwards of 120 ng/mL, (300 nmol/L) and some may require slightly less.  This is the data I used to generate the green color band in the chart above.

What we do know at this point is there are CH'ers who's 25(OH)D concentration was 42 ng/mL and they were still experiencing frequent CH.  I used this data to anchor the upper boundary of the pink color band in the above graph.  I'd also like to point out that as more CH'ers try this regimen and have the lab test for 25(OH)D, these color bands will take on better resolution.

The real question now is what is the best dosing strategy to elevate our 26(OH)D concentration into the pain free green zone as safely and rapidly as possible without upsetting the apple cart by taking too much of one or another of the supplements and disturbing their balance. 

The following graph from the most recent study by Garland et al, on vitamin D3 dosing and 25(OH)D response measured every six months as collected by the GrassRootsHealth D*Action study, paints an interesting picture:

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I've drawn a line from 60 ng/mL 25(OH)D concentration to the lower 95% probability boundary and from there down to the daily dose required to reach that concentration.  From this you can see that in order to ensure the probability that 95% of the dosing population reaches a serum level of 60 ng/mL, they would need to dose at 20,000 IU/day.

Clearly calcium and the vitamin D3 cofactor minerals magnesium, zinc and boron play a role in optimum metabolism of vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D, and from the recent posts, the amount of calcium supplements and the cal-mag ratio also appears to be an important factor.

We also know from the results of several published studies on serum level 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3, that a therapeutic dose of 10,000 IU/day is safe and not likely to result in vitamin D3 intoxication associated with 25(OH)D levels of 200-300 ng/mL with hypercalcemia and hypercalciuria. 

In fact, there are other studies that have shown that starting and 20 week serum levels of calcium were unchanged when taking vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day.  The most recent study of the 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3 doses as high as 40,000 IU/day concluded that a long term sustained daily intake this high is also safe and unlikely to result in vitamin D3 intoxication.

At face value, that leaves us with a safe therapeutic vitamin D3 dosing range of 10,000 to 40,000 IU/day.  However like so many other systems in nature, the law of unintended consequence comes into play when we upset the balance of these systems by increasing the quantity of one of the reactants in that process.  For example, increasing the daily intake of vitamin D3 also drives more calcium into solution from all sources and if the extra calcium isn't available in the gut, this process takes it from our bones. 

Calcium homeostasis, the processes by with the body maintains serum calcium levels in a narrow range of 2.2 to 2.6 mmol/L is much like other homeostatic processes in the body.   These include the homeostatic processes that maintain our body temperature at 98.6ş F, our arterial pH in a range between 7.35 and 7.45, and blood glucose levels between 64.8 and 104.4 mg/dL.

Accordingly, as calcium homeostasis can and will extract calcium from the bones in order to maintain optimum serum calcium levels if insufficient calcium is available in the gut from dietary sources, it's prudent to supplement with calcium when supplementing with vitamin D3.  (See following link for a paper on calcium homeostasis, PTH and Calcitonin.)

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That begs the questions, How much calcium? and If I add calcium, how much magnesium should I take to maintain adequate vitamin D3 metabolism to make the 25(OH)D needed to remain pain free?

I'm not a doctor or a nutrition expert.  However, in reviewing available information on this topic and talking with some experts, there are several recommendations for calcium supplements that range from 500 to 1000 mg/day.  From what we've learned about the anti-inflammatory regimen, calcium citrate is the preferred form of calcium supplement to take and 500 mg/day appears to be adequate.

Magnesium supplements and the cal-mag ratio are another story.  Suggested cal-mag ratios range from 2:1, 1:1 and 1:2.  Moreover, there's no clear consensus.  If you're taking two of the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate tablets, you're getting 500 mg/day calcium and 60 mg/day magnesium.  (You're also getting the required zinc and boron).  That may not be enough magnesium for some of us which gets us back to the question of how much more magnesium should we add?

The RDA for magnesium is 420 mg/day for men and 320 mg/day for women, and as magnesium is readily available in green leafy vegetables, whole grains, nuts, meat, starches, and milk, without a lab test, it's difficult to tell.  From my experience, 200 mg of additional magnesium is fine but 400 mg starts getting iffy...

In reality, the answer here is easy... Your bowels will tell you when you've taken too much supplemental magnesium...  In other words, it's like rolling the dice in a crap shoot... and that analogy is spot on... Take the right amount, you win, and everything works better.  Take too much and you crap out...  In other words, you'll find yourself taking small steps with great trepidation towards the dumper...  [smiley=moonwiggle.gif]

The reason for this behavior is simple...  You'll get loose as a goose with explosive watery stool if you take too much magnesium.  [smiley=JAW_DROP.gif] 

That reminds me of Uncle Miltie... the comedian and actor Milton Berle, who joked about a commercial for the BVD brand of underware by saying... "At my age...  I've done everything in my BVDs..." with a big smile...

I'll close on that note of bathroom humor... but I will make another request of the CH'ers who've tried this regimen, to take the Anti-Inflammatory Survey if they haven't already done so...  We need this information and there are at least another 70 of you out there who haven't taken this survey.

Take care,

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 12th, 2012 at 4:50pm
Awesome, as usual post Batch. I know your not a Dr, or headache specialist, but you could've fooled me. I dub thee "CH Guru". lol

To be clear on my posts regarding Calcium, I'm only explaining what I've been taking and the results I've inferred form the short month I've been taking the regime.

In no way, shape or form do I intend to offer an alternative, or contradict Batch's advice, and suggestions.

My suggestion on taking 1200 mg of Calcium is to those who don't find relief or complete relief from the Standard dosages after a fair amount of time. And from what I've read "19 - 50 years: 1,000 mg/day" is recommended and "2,000 - 2,500 mg a day appears to be safe for adults."
via
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Its not wise to take anything, including Calcium, in excess of what is 'needed'. Use your discretion and calculate what your usual diet provides, and supplement, or do not supplement accordingly.

I say all this in attempt to not confuse or appear to persuade anyone to just take 1200 cause it simply "seems" to be effective for myself.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Jan 12th, 2012 at 9:17pm
Thank you Batch for posting the chart.  I had been looking everywhere to find that information. 
After a few pf days the beast has returned for the last few nights.  It is still fairly mild compared to how he usually was but just enough to force you to wake up and abort. 
Just over a week ago I had my 25(OH) D level tested and it was 23.6 ng/ml.   I'm estimating that it's probably sitting 27 ng/ml area now.  I still have a quite a way to go to get out of the active CH area.  I increased the Vit D level yesterday to 15000 iu/day to try and speed up the process.  If I increase even more to 20 000 iu/day should I add extra calcium and magnesium?
It is interesting to note that when I was pf I was healthy but this past weekend came down with a bad cold.  I wonder if increased mouth breathing has effected my PH level bringing the beast back....

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2012 at 6:26am
MM&I,

Good question...  Upping the daily dose of vitamin D3 to 15,000 or 20,000 IU/day should get you into the green zone and hopefully pain free a little faster.  However, I don't think there's any need to increase the supplemental calcium intake above 500 mg/day at 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 unless your diet is low in dairy products and food types high in calcium.   My wife and I take 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and 500 mg/day calcium is working just fine for both of us.

That said, when you reach 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3, it's likely a prudent move to bump the calcium supplements up to 750 mg/day and magnesium supplements up to 200 mg/day over the 90 mg. of magnesium you get from the calcium citrate tablets if you use the Kirkland brand or a similar formulation from Citracal.

What we're guarding against here with the extra calcium is the loss of bone mass.  Unfortunately, this is a relatively slow process and there's no good way of determining the impact of higher doses of vitamin D3 on bone mass without an ultrasonic bone density scan to determine a baseline and subsequent scans to see if there's any change.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jan 13th, 2012 at 11:12am
I just got the results from the latest blood test.  Vit. D (25-OH) is now at 212 nmol/L. 

I eat 5.000 and 10.000 IU every other day, and have done so since oct.1. From jul 1. to oct 1, it was 10.000 IU a day.

aug 24: 225 nmol/L
sep 28: 295  nmol/L
dec 05: 271 nmol/L
jan 05: 212 nmol/L  and for the first time my CA values are beyond normal range at 2,59 mmol/L - maybe because I've begun drinking milk again. I actually take only 166 mg CA. I have no explanation for the sharp decline in Vit D. levels   -20% in one month. But all December I've been sick with shingles. That may be the explanation.

I have been 100% PF since mid October and almost instantly 94% PF from July.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 13th, 2012 at 1:23pm
Well unfortunately I seem to be getting worse. Days are okay but have gotten 4 HA a night the last few nights. I'm taking 20,000 IU D3, 500 mg Calcium Citrate w/ the mag, zinc and D3 daily.  Going for the 25 (OH) d test this morning and going to get a script for O2. Going to give that a go again. The last time I tried it (4 years ago), I did it wrong as I found out from Gregg. On the other hand I'm quite used to things not working  and just dealing with it so no surprise. I'll keep up with the vitamins anyways at least until I get the test results.......

The shitty part about this cycle is as an episodic for the last 30+ years is I just got over a 6 month right side cycle about 6 weeks ago only to go into a left side cycle 3 weeks later. Still hopeful though.

Rick  ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 13th, 2012 at 3:36pm

RTD wrote on Jan 13th, 2012 at 1:23pm:
Well unfortunately I seem to be getting worse. Days are okay but have gotten 4 HA a night the last few nights. I'm taking 20,000 IU D3, 500 mg Calcium Citrate w/ the mag, zinc and D3 daily.  Going for the 25 (OH) d test this morning and going to get a script for O2. Going to give that a go again. The last time I tried it (4 years ago), I did it wrong as I found out from Gregg. On the other hand I'm quite used to things not working  and just dealing with it so no surprise. I'll keep up with the vitamins anyways at least until I get the test results.......

The shitty part about this cycle is as an episodic for the last 30+ years is I just got over a 6 month right side cycle about 6 weeks ago only to go into a left side cycle 3 weeks later. Still hopeful though.

Rick  ;)


Rick,
Remain strong and let me know if you need anything locally.
-Gregg

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2012 at 4:07pm
Hey Rick,

Sorry you're still having night hits...  Good move on having your 25(OH)D concentration tested...  That's the beauty of this regimen.  You can actually measure your progress with the results of this test. 

Starting back on oxygen therapy is also a good move.  Gregg has the breathing techniques down pat so you'll likely have much better results aborting your CH at higher oxygen flow rates that support hyperventilation.

Try taking at least half the vitamin D3 in the evenings before bed.  I'm beginning to think the serum concentration of cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) may be playing a role in preventing CH before the liver and kidneys metabolize it into 25(OH)D.  Adding another tablet of the calcium citrate might help as well.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2012 at 5:15pm
Hey Rune,

Sorry about the shingles...  another of life's more unpleasant maladies...  Joyce got hit with them in 2005 and it traveled down the nerves in her pitching arm...  She was a starting pitcher on her Congressional League Slow Pitch team for many years in the Washington DC area so had an excellent throwing arm...

After the shingles she picked up a wicked hitch in her delivery.  We now call her "Wild Thing."  No telling where the ball will go but it gets there with a lot of heat...

There may be a link between the drop in 25(OH)D and spike in total calcium...  Calcium homeostasis is normally very good at maintaining total serum calcium in a narrow range of 2.1 - 2.2 2.6 mmol/L so something is out of balance...  Did your labs include a test for Parathyroid Hormone (PTH) or magnesium levels? 

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jan 14th, 2012 at 6:45am
Hi Batch. 
Sorry about Joyce. Shingles are truly a bizarre illness. And I have of course wondered if it somehow is related to CH, but not found any link :-)

As a matter of fact I've measured both Mg and S-PTH. Mg is steady at  0.9 mmol/L. PTH more varied:

sep 28: 2,0  pmol/L
oct 27: 2,4 pmol/L
dec 05: 2,1 pmol/L
jan 05: 1,9 pmol/L

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 14th, 2012 at 9:43am
Last night was better, only 2 HA. Over the years my CH have  changed but the last few years, one thing has remained constant. I seem to get hit shortly after I eat and during the digestion process. So I only eat in the evening so I can deal with work stuff during the day. Like if I eat at 6:00 I'll get hit several times between 8:00 and 2:00. Like a 6 hour window depending when I eat. If I don't eat I either won't get hit or if I do, just one very mild hit. Anyone else relate to that or is it just me?

Anyhow went for my 25(OH)D test yesterday. Should have results sometime next week. And of course it was a fiasco explaining the O2 thing to my doc and doubt the insurance will cover, which is fine I'll just pay for it. It is a strange thing to be explaining to a doctor the proper treatment for something though.

Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jan 14th, 2012 at 11:48am
It is a strange thing to be explaining to a doctor the proper treatment for something though.

Good on you for taking the initiative and being your own advocate. We say it a lot, but it bears repeating. Sitting in front of your doc and saying "fix me" with CH, is a sure fire recipe for a LOT of pain.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 14th, 2012 at 4:54pm

Zeitgeist wrote on Jan 13th, 2012 at 11:12am:
aug 24: 225 nmol/L
sep 28: 295  nmol/L
dec 05: 271 nmol/L
jan 05: 212 nmol/L  and for the first time my CA values are beyond normal range at 2,59 mmol/L - maybe because I've begun drinking milk again. I actually take only 166 mg CA. I have no explanation for the sharp decline in Vit D. levels   -20% in one month. But all December I've been sick with shingles. That may be the explanation.

Sorry about the Shingles, my Mom had them in her eye and nearly went blind.

I wonder if sun exposure might explain your lower Vit D levels? Yet the Aug to Sept increase wouldn't jive with that assumption unless your levels were still increasing until they 'leveled off' between Aug & Sept.

Its very interesting so see fluctuations like that, and thanks for sharing. Kudos for getting tested so often.

Dairy and drinking milk seems to be the best way to get Calcium, 8-ounce glass of milk = 300 mg of calcium, so no surprise on the Calcium levels. I'd guess (without knowing your diet at all) that your getting 600-1200 mg of Calcium. Nice to see the translation to blood levels.

How much dairy to you consume in a day, if you don't mind me asking?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 15th, 2012 at 7:11am
Hey Rune,

I want to thank you again for making your lab data available. It's very exciting to see the actual lab results of the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 over time... More so knowing you're also PF...

I've sent you a paper on calcium homeostasis and a study by Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D.  I've pasted an excerpt from that study below.  Dr. Heaney is one of the Grand Masters of vitamin D3 therapy and research.  The findings below come from his 2003 study of four vitamin D3 dosage groups:  Group 1 taking no vitamin D3; Group 2 taking 1000 IU/day; Group 3 taking 5000 IU/day; and Group 4 taking 10,000 IU/day:

"Serum PTH rose by 6% during the winter in the zero-dosage group (from a beginning value of 32 pg/mL; P = 0.05), was unchanged in the intermediate-dosage groups, and fell by 24% in the highest-dosage group (from 29.5 pg/mL; P < 0.001). Across all groups, the change in PTH was inversely correlated with the actual cholecalciferol dose (P < 0.01). Serum calcium was measured at each visit in the 2 higher-dosage groups, but it did not change significantly from baseline (x–: 9.6 mg/dL) at any time point at either dose. The first and last serum calcium values for the 31 participants in the higher-dosage groups are shown in Figure 4. No value rose above the upper limit of normal, and, as is visually evident, treatment did not increase the dispersion of serum calcium values."


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Date    Vitamin D3    25(OH)D        PTH             Ca               Mg
Aug 24  10K  IU/d   225 nmol/L      
Sep 28  10K  IU/d   295 nmol/L  2.0 pmol/L    Normal        0.9 mmol/L
Oct 27  7.5K IU/d                      2.4 pmol/L    Normal        0.9 mmol/L
Dec 05  7.5K IU/d   271 nmol/L  2.1 pmol/L    Normal        0.9 mmol/L
Jan 05  7.5K IU/d    212 nmol/L  1.9 pmol/L  2.59 mmol/L  0.9 mmol/L

If I've captured the data accurately from your posts... I'd say your labs summarized in the table above, appear normal and consistent with your vitamin D3 intake and the resulting serum calcium levels.

The normal reference range for PTH is 1.1 - 7.5 pmol/L.  As your PTH levels are in the lower end of this range and PTH elevates to raise serum calcium via bone resorption and renal calcium reabsorption, it's likely the lower PTH levels reflect the higher serum calcium level as less of the PTH is needed.  The last total serum calcium listed as "High" at 2.59 mmol/L is still within the normal reference range of 2.1 to 2.6 mmol/L from available texts and Figure 4 above.  I had a typo in my previous post on the normal range of serum calcium concentration.

The drop in serum 25(OH)D appears to be consistent with the lower daily dose of vitamin D3 that you started after 1 Oct, and the gradual depletion of 25(OH)D reserves built up during the first three months at the higher vitamin D3 dose of 10,600 IU/day.  The accelerated drop in 25(OH)D indicated in your last labs could easily be due to an increased depletion of 25(OH)D reserves associated with a reduction in endrogenous vitamin D3 produced by the skin due to the absence of UVB exposure from lower angle sunlight there in Norway during the Winter months. 

I expect your serum 25(OH)D concentration will continue to drop until it reaches an equilibrium consistent with an average vitamin D3 dose of 7,500 IU/day.  Based on the vitamin D3 study results published by Dr. Heaney shown below and interpolating between a dose of 5,000 IU/day and 10,000 IU/day with the dark dashed line, I estimate that your 25(OH)D concentration will reach equilibrium and stabilize around 180 nmol/L ± 10 if you continue at an average vitamin D3 dose of 7,500 IU/day.

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This is exactly the kind of information we hope to collect in a formal study of this regimen's capacity to prevent CH compared with the prevailing standards of care preventative treatments shown in the following table.

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Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jan 15th, 2012 at 7:51am

PlayDoh wrote on Jan 14th, 2012 at 4:54pm:

How much dairy to you consume in a day, if you don't mind me asking?


I estimate 16 ounces a day.  Except for milk, only butter.


Batch!  Fascinating - thanks!  You've got the numbers right. I will continue with the same amounts and take a new test in a month or so.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JackBurton on Jan 15th, 2012 at 3:56pm
Hi!

I was diagnosed with CH in the ER 2 weeks ago, then saw my PCP 6 days ago and was set up with O2, prescribed 180 mg verapamil to start and a 15 day prednisone tape starting at 50 mg. The next day I started researching cluster headaches, found this forum. I found this thread very interesting and took lots of notes and started the anti-inflammatory regimen to the best of my ability about 5 days ago. I have supplements from various previous experiments to feel better, so they're not exactly has been suggested but I am okay with using them for now to save money.

Okay, long intro done, now to my question. Am I doing this right? I am taking:

Barleans Fish Oil Omega-3 1000 mg each; 2-3 a day with meals

Kirkland Vitamin D3 2000 IU; 2 with 2 meals a day, 1 at bedtime = 10,000 IU

Womens One a Day multivitamin which has:
1000 IU vitamin D3
25 mcg vitamin K
50 mg magnesium
15 mg zinc
500 mg calcium (elemental)
So that brings my D3 total up to 11,000 IU a day

I have a calcium-magnesium supplement but it's calcium carbonate with magnesium oxide, so absorption seems to be an issue. Plus with the verapamil its driving me crazy to figure out the best time to take it. Instead right now I am skipping it (the cal/mag supplement, not the verapamil) and using a magnesium supplement to see if I can approximate a 2:1  cal/mag ratio with the calcium in the multivitamin. Magnesium citrate 200 mg once a day, which is 500 mg calcium to 250 mg magnesium. I don't know if that is enough?

I also take a b complex vitamin for general health and energy, and have started taking 6 mg melatonin at night.

Thanks.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by IndianaJohn on Jan 15th, 2012 at 4:50pm
I usually take the vitamins in the morning with a glass of OJ and then I take my verapamil at dinner.  The timing of the verapamil seems to be working for me as my night hits are being controlled fairly well.

Batch will probably weigh in on your formulations, but your magnesium seems low.  I take 400 mg/day.  I also take up to 15 mg melatonin a night.

Hope your getting some PF time.

John

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 15th, 2012 at 5:47pm
FYI to the newbies on this regimen...Calcium citrate alone on an empty stomach has been known to cause nausea.  Take the vitamins with food! ;)

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 16th, 2012 at 3:17am
Zeitgeist - Thank you for your answer.

JackBurton - I would highly recommend you grab some Calcium Citrate. I take Calcium Citrate with D3 300mg/200 IU. All the vitamins I take cost me roughly about $30 a month (Canadian), yet I'd pay ten times that no problem.

FWIW. I take all 1200 mg of Calcium Citrate with D3 in the morning or early afternoon, almost always on an empty stomach and have never had nausea.

I take all vitamins / supplements in the Morning or early afternoon all at the same time, with juice or water. No nausea or stomach issues at all. I was worried at first after reading this thread, since it seemed to be an issue with people. I now think that its more the exception, yet I'm just guessing there.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 16th, 2012 at 4:55am

JackBurton wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 3:56pm:
Okay, long intro done, now to my question. Am I doing this right? I am taking:

Barleans Fish Oil Omega-3 1000 mg each; 2-3 a day with meals

Kirkland Vitamin D3 2000 IU; 2 with 2 meals a day, 1 at bedtime = 10,000 IU

Womens One a Day multivitamin which has:
1000 IU vitamin D3
25 mcg vitamin K
50 mg magnesium
15 mg zinc
500 mg calcium (elemental)
So that brings my D3 total up to 11,000 IU a day

I have a calcium-magnesium supplement but it's calcium carbonate with magnesium oxide, so absorption seems to be an issue. Plus with the verapamil its driving me crazy to figure out the best time to take it. Instead right now I am skipping it (the cal/mag supplement, not the verapamil) and using a magnesium supplement to see if I can approximate a 2:1  cal/mag ratio with the calcium in the multivitamin. Magnesium citrate 200 mg once a day, which is 500 mg calcium to 250 mg magnesium. I don't know if that is enough?


Hey JB,

You're doing just fine and you've got all the supplements down pat...  Everything should be looking good in no time!

As Old Jack would say:

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    "What the Hell...  It's all in the reflexes..."

Not too many gals dig John Carpenter flicks... or is there a connection we can't see?

In any event, with all the goodies you've got to keep the beast away...  something is bound to work and this should be a cake walk near the Great lake.

Take care and keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JackBurton on Jan 16th, 2012 at 1:50pm
Wait, are you saying there are people out there who don't like John Carpenter films?  :o

Big Trouble in Little China is one favorite movies. I am a total and cheerful dork. Maybe a geek?  Well, up until my head decided to start plotting to drive me miserable and in agonizing pain. I want to get back to baseline so I can geek it up again.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 16th, 2012 at 3:49pm
Hmmm...  Geek... a total and cheerful dork... likes John Carpenter flicks including Big Trouble in Little China... lives by a Great Lake...  What's not to like about that?  You're my kind of CH'er...  :)

Now we gotta get you in control of the beast so there are no more "dark and stormy nights when the lighting's crashing and the thunder's roaring and the rain's coming down in sheets thick as lead"

Besides that...  none of us want a big ol' hairy scary beast climbing around the backside of our sleeper cab... when the earth shakes and the poison arrows fall from the sky and the pillars of heaven shake...

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[smiley=yikes.gif]

Even if we can take it...

Hang in there JB...  and please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cosworth on Jan 18th, 2012 at 10:55am
Without going back through this entire thread, can anyone comment on incidence of nausea being reported?  I've been doing the regimen for about four weeks now and over the last week or so i'm finding that i'm nauseos a LOT.  I take 10,000 iu's of D3, 650 mg. Calcium citrate, 400 mg. magnesium citrate, multivitamin, 2 fish oil capsules which provide 1200 mg.  I typically take another dose of fish oil, plus vitamin C before bed, but i've stopped doing that because my stomach's been so torn up.  I'm really bummed. Shadows are increasing, and i'm not sure if the regimen is what's making me feel so lousy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 18th, 2012 at 2:55pm
It doesn't seem like nausea is that prevalent, yet perhaps most people take the regime with food, which should help with stomach upset / nausea.

Do you take your with food? If not, try that.

I'm still not 100% clear on everything, yet perhaps your 'fish oil' isn't ideal. Does it give you a DHA and EPA count? Its kinda like vitamin D, which from what I've learned is the same as D3. unless I'm mistaken. Yet when you look at the vitamin shelf there are Vitamin D bottles beside D3 bottles.

Also there's half a dozen different Omega 3 / fish oil bottles that probably all have the same thing inside them.

I would suspect the Fish oil would be the cause of Nausea, so try to take those with food, and I don't think you need 4 pills worth. I'd try switching brands and get a Omega 3 'select' so you don't need as much 'oil' to get the desired ingredients (DHA and EPA).

My 3 pills of Omega 3 'select' provide 900 mg EPA (300 each) and 600 mg of DHA (200 each), with 1500 mg Omega 3 fatty acids (500 each) (derived from 1000 mg of pure molecularly distilled sardine and anchovy oil). Their "Jamison" brand.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 18th, 2012 at 4:11pm
So Batch, I got my 25(OH)D test results back and they came in at 58 nmol/L. Curious what to think. While I have had some good days in the last week, yesterday was one of the worst. I had the worst HA I've had in the last 3 years. In your opinion where am I at with a result of 58? Should it be higher? Should I keep going?

Oh a side note my new buddy Gregg helped me out with getting the O2 and I should have my new mask tomorrow (man I could have used it yesterday) so I should be good to try to fight back. 


Thanks in advance
Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Jan 18th, 2012 at 4:15pm
I'm only to page 6 on this thread but I just had to post because I'm so excited! I went out just now and got all the supplies. I also got some redbull for hubby to drink before o2 (we are new to o2 and I aborts but does not "stick." they come back). I am currently drinkIng one of the redbull myself because I've Been unable to sleep since his remission ended and life is kind of a drag for both of us right now...

So he had his first HA in 3.5 years on Saturday. Before remission he had them from age 6 till age 28. Always episodic and following the same 1 mo on/ 3 mo off schedule. No hit Sunday night. Then got hit Monday night @ a 7+. Tuesday he tried to nap on a break at 9 am and 30 min later got an attack. So I ran out and spent $330 rigging up some welders o2 for him. Another hit started Tuesday afternoon, stopped by the o2.

Last night he had to attempt aborting with o2 THREE times before it went away. And then twice again today. The beast doesn't like to be pushed back, he just throws a temper tantrum later >:(

As soon as he gets back from his testosterone shot I will give him all these supps!

I'm really hoping for a quick reaction time. He has been working his ASS off preparing for a CrossFit competition this weekend that he could place well in. The HA could ruin all his hard work :(

I'll chime in tomorrow!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Jan 18th, 2012 at 5:47pm
RTD,
You are in the same situation I am in.  At the start of January I tested at 58nmol/l.  Unfortunately we have to build up to a vit d level of 150 nmol/l to be at the low end of where most people are going pf.  Hopefully you've been able to see some reduction in intensity of the beast as your 25(oh) d levels are slowly increasing. 
I'm still getting hit daily.  Usually they are mild but on occasion the beast will come back with a larger bite.

Hang in there, you'll get there soon :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 18th, 2012 at 5:48pm
RDT, that's low. I think its 23.2 ng/ml. Ideally you want 90 ng/ml, if I'm not mistaken, so I'd say your very low.

CC_stole_my_Harte, I would tell him to avoid 'naps' they always bring on a CH for me and many others. I know we all need sleep, but if possible try to avoid it.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 18th, 2012 at 5:59pm

MemyselfandI wrote on Jan 18th, 2012 at 5:47pm:
RTD,
You are in the same situation I am in.  At the start of January I tested at 58nmol/l.  Unfortunately we have to build up to a vit d level of 150 nmol/l to be at the low end of where most people are going pf.  Hopefully you've been able to see some reduction in intensity of the beast as your 25(oh) d levels are slowly increasing. 
I'm still getting hit daily.  Usually they are mild but on occasion the beast will come back with a larger bite.

Hang in there, you'll get there soon :)




That's interesting cause my doc called and said my level is normal at 58 But i thought I saw somewhere on this thread a level between 60-90 is what were shooting for..... I had had a few days of milder hits until yesterday and then BOOM K10. I'm going to keep at it but highly considering Verapimil again.

Rick 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 18th, 2012 at 6:01pm

PlayDoh wrote on Jan 18th, 2012 at 5:48pm:
RDT, that's low. I think its 23.2 ng/ml. Ideally you want 90 ng/ml, if I'm not mistaken, so I'd say your very low.

CC_stole_my_Harte, I would tell him to avoid 'naps' they always bring on a CH for me and many others. I know we all need sleep, but if possible try to avoid it.




Yep no naps!!! And that sucks because I love naps >:(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Jan 18th, 2012 at 7:31pm
I don't think he had an issue with naps before, but it seems to be an issue now.  Definitely avoiding for now.  "Anxiously" awaiting tonight to see if the D3, combined with redbull before 02 will help him get some blessed sleep tonight.  Course I probably still won't be getting any :-/  Anytime he so much as twitches I am wide awake.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Jan 18th, 2012 at 8:47pm

RTD wrote on Jan 18th, 2012 at 5:59pm:
That's interesting cause my doc called and said my level is normal at 58 But i thought I saw somewhere on this thread a level between 60-90 is what were shooting for..... I had had a few days of milder hits until yesterday and then BOOM K10. I'm going to keep at it but highly considering Verapimil again.

Rick 

My pcp had wanted me to take 1000 iu of vit d to get my level up to 80 nmol/L.  She considered that good.  Still well below what people are finding is necessary.  According to Batch's chart it will take approximately 40 days, at 10000 iu vit d/day, to reach the 150 nmol/L. 
I'm curious why your doc had given the 25(oh)D level in nmol/L.  I see that you're in America where typically the vit d level is expressed in ng/ml.  The rest of the world typically uses nmol/L. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 19th, 2012 at 1:09am
Rick,
Could it have been the buffet lunch?  Hope not, cuz i'm game for Friday if you got time!?

On the Marshall Protocol study site, 25-D levels are typically discussed using ng/ml units rather than pmol/L. The ratio between the two units is: 2.4 ng/ml = 1 nmol/L. To convert nmol/L into ng/ml, multiply by 0.40, as you see in this example based on RTD's test result:

58 nmol/L * .40 = 23.2 ng/mL

My D test result was 103.0 ng/mL and flagged as HIGH.  My lab report stated "recent studies consider the lower limit of 32.0 mg/mL to be a threshold for optimal health."

This vitamin regimen is not 100% effective, despite it working for many.  Personally, I would not wait/gamble on this to be your #1 preventive and go with the Verapamil.

Hope tonight is PF for you.  Did the o2 mask arrive yet?
Talk tomorrow.
-Gregg

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 19th, 2012 at 8:17am
Gregg,

1:09 am? Dam you stay up late. Yeah its my bad on the nmol/L   ng/mL Thing. My doc called me with the results so I'm sure it was ng/mL. It was his office girl who initially called and just said my levels were fine. I had to ask her for the number, so I'm sure it was the ng/mL range.... Didn't get the mask yet, hopefully today.

Friday sounds good, I just have to be more careful of what I eat. I should have known better. Besides I finally got the building permit for that job so I will be out of town a lot over the next month so I'd like to get together before this weekend. It does my brain good to talk to someone who knows what we deal with.  ;)

I'll call you later this morning
RTD

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dorothy on Jan 19th, 2012 at 11:41am
Hi folks!

I just started taking these supplements last week in the hope that I might not even go into cycle.  OMG they are huge capsules to swallow!  Well if I don't choke to death in the meantime I'll let you know whether I eventually do go into cycle or not.... :P

Dorothy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jan 19th, 2012 at 12:50pm
This regimen is more than vitamin D. I don't know what my levels were back in late June when I begun following the regime, having to eat 18 pills á 400 I.U (max allowed in Norway).  But I know where I came from, May and June being particularly evil, and the last 12 months my first encounter with the chronic version of CH.

However - my point is: The effect of the regimen was instant and I was PF the third night.  One may wonder why, because building up the optimal levels of Vit D serum takes time. That's why I sometimes get the feeling that  Ca and Mg don't get the credit the probably deserve, especially Mg.  I actually broke out of a vicious cycle and a cycle of cycles (chronic CH) in a matter of days. That's close to busting if you ask me.

Another important point:  Split Mg in one morning and one evening dose, and always eat Vit D with food, preferably with fat.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 19th, 2012 at 12:51pm
Rick,
Go to your profile settings and reset your clock.  I wrote that at 10:09pm, your profile must be set for EST, adjust it to PST for accuracy.

Speaking of time, don't you think you've given this vitamin regimen enough chance and it's time to start the Verapamil?  You don't have to stop it completely as there are addtl health benefits besides CH's. 

What if you're like me and this vitamin regimen is worthless for CH's?  I had the longest cycle in 32 years of suffering because I took the gamble relying solely on this vitamin regimen would work for me and prolonged taking Verapamil until i couldn't take it anymore. 

You've now got local support and a new friend here to help.

-Gregg

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 19th, 2012 at 2:17pm
Hulk,

Adjusted the clock. probably going to try the verap soon although I may have to run off to Cali as my mom is not doing very well. Having some tests done on her liver right now and may be admitted later today. I'll know more later


RTD

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 19th, 2012 at 2:20pm

PlayDoh wrote on Jan 19th, 2012 at 1:40pm:

Zeitgeist wrote on Jan 19th, 2012 at 12:50pm:
However - my point is: The effect of the regimen was instant and I was PF the third night.  One may wonder why, because building up the optimal levels of Vit D serum takes time. That's why I sometimes get the feeling that  Ca and Mg don't get the credit the probably deserve, especially Mg.  I actually broke out of a vicious cycle and a cycle of cycles (chronic CH) in a matter of days. That's close to busting if you ask me.


I very much agree, and 5 times I've dropped my Ca intake in half I get shadows the same night. I'm thinking 5 times can't be coincidence, yet it is possible.

Since Calcium uses D3 to get absorbed, I'm thinking perhaps its helping by just increasing Ca absorption. Perhaps even if you get enough Ca in your diet, but are D3 deficient, you end up not getting enough Ca in your system. Which would explain why some don't need much or any Ca supplements, yet get relief from D3.

This is all speculation, and I almost feel like I'm 'stepping on toes' by doing so, but I can't help but follow the logic. Like you said, if D3 takes a prolonged time to reach increased levels, the almost instant response doesn't seem to make sense.

I've been taking a look at my diet, and I'm now aware of how little Ca I get on a regular basis.

Food for thought  ;)



I thought it was the other way around. The D3 needs the calcium to get absorbed :-?

Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hangup27 on Jan 19th, 2012 at 11:23pm
There was too much good info in this thread to follow each post. BUT...

I started taking D3, Omega 3 Fish oil, and melatonin ( at night). Seems to have helped.

( could also be verapamil taking effect)

Thanks for all the info.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cosworth on Jan 19th, 2012 at 11:43pm

PlayDoh wrote on Jan 18th, 2012 at 2:55pm:
It doesn't seem like nausea is that prevalent, yet perhaps most people take the regime with food, which should help with stomach upset / nausea.

Do you take your with food? If not, try that.


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Mr Doh, thanks for the reply. Yes, do take with food so I'm not sure what it is either. I actually had been on fish oil prior to starting the vitamin regimen as my orthopaedic surgeon (knee troubles) recommended high doses (2-3 grams) per day.  I read a lot about fish oil supplements and have tried several - the current one being a nordic naturals brand.  These are highly purified as you mentioned so you are getting a lot more DHA and EPA per 1000 mg. of oil.  For example one brand has 650 mg EPA/450 DHA /180 "other omega 3's in every 2000 mg of oil.   I have another much cheaper brand (Nature Made) that is 720 mg of omega 3's  (360 EPA/300 DHA/60 "other") per 1200 mg of oil.  So, don't think it's the fish  oil as it never bothered me before, but who knows?  If you do some on-line reading about the whole fish oil market it can get really confusing as all the "high end" (read most expensive) brands claim their product is the best, most bi0-available, blah blah.  I may just have to start experimenting taking away one item at a time from the regimen. I hate to do this as I believe it was helping me.  But, the bad news is I increased from 10,000 iu's to 20,000 iu's this week of D3 because i've had almost constant shadows last couple days and even occasionally that really low level headache kip 1/2 that just breaks through for a bit but then fades.  Frustrating as hell. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CC_stole_my_Harte on Jan 20th, 2012 at 8:17am
Ok, just an update!  Today is the start of day 3 on D3 regamin, and we had a pain free night last night!!  Hoping this continues!!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 20th, 2012 at 10:05am
Awesome news CC and hangup27!

I think my Calcium theory took a hit this morning, pun intended. I got a typical shadow that I was attributing to reduced Ca intake, yet I took 1200 mg yesterday.

I should have known better to think I had something partially 'figured out', and more over to share my advice on the topic.

Not to mention its splitting hairs, and however it works, or whatever role Ca, D3, or Omega 3 have, the combination works. Nuff said. ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cosworth on Jan 20th, 2012 at 11:30am
For Batch - just wondering if there is any evidence anecdotal or based on surveys from Episodics indicating any change in the duration of their cycle while doing this regimen. I've been on the regimen for a month now, and while I think it's stopping my CH's, i'm having much longer shadowing periods - for hours i will have heavy shadows that for me i typically only got early in a cycle and a little at the end.  My cycles have always been a bit of a bell curve, ramping up pretty quickly, staying bad (4+ hits a day) for 6-8 weeks and in total lasting 10-14 weeks on avg.  The longest cycles i've ever had seemd to be where i would use prednisone in the middle to attempt to kill the cluster but seemed to always only extend the cycle by the amount of time i was on the meds.  I guess my fear is that the regimen is similarly supressing the beast but by not letting it out to run it's course then it's actually extending the cycle.  I'm considering trying a busting method soon to see if i can stop the much more subtle (but nearly constant) pain i'm having now.  I guess i need to find time to sit and read all 25 pages of this thread

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 20th, 2012 at 1:03pm

Cosworth wrote on Jan 20th, 2012 at 11:30am:
For Batch - just wondering if there is any evidence anecdotal or based on surveys from Episodics indicating any change in the duration of their cycle while doing this regimen. I've been on the regimen for a month now, and while I think it's stopping my CH's, i'm having much longer shadowing periods - for hours i will have heavy shadows that for me i typically only got early in a cycle and a little at the end.  My cycles have always been a bit of a bell curve, ramping up pretty quickly, staying bad (4+ hits a day) for 6-8 weeks and in total lasting 10-14 weeks on avg.  The longest cycles i've ever had seemd to be where i would use prednisone in the middle to attempt to kill the cluster but seemed to always only extend the cycle by the amount of time i was on the meds.  I guess my fear is that the regimen is similarly supressing the beast but by not letting it out to run it's course then it's actually extending the cycle.  I'm considering trying a busting method soon to see if i can stop the much more subtle (but nearly constant) pain i'm having now.  I guess i need to find time to sit and read all 25 pages of this thread



That is an interesting point you bring up. Through the years I have always equated any treatments I've tried, both abortive and preventive as prolonging my cycle. Other than busting I haven't used either in 4 years. I haven't used Imetrex or the like in at least 6 years as I hated the rebounds and felt it extended my cycle.   My last 3 cycles leading up to this year have been milder and shorter (3 months which is short for me) than years past. I attributed this to my age (52). My father who also had these stopped getting them at 49. So I started believing maybe I'm getting to that point. This years cycle or should I say cycles have been much worse. I say cycles because I had a 6 month right side cycle that ended in early December only to start a left side cycle 3 weeks later which I'm now dealing with. Been on this vitamin regime for a little over 3 weeks now, and seem to be having no luck. While I am very happy it works for many of you, I am seriously considering going back on verapimil due to the severity of this particular cycle. Having said that I am now set up with the O2 Thanks to my new best buddy Gregg who not only helped me with how to get supplies but also explained the proper use. I now know I did it wrong the first time I tried it before so I'm at least happy to have that. Also so very lucky to have a wife that puts up with me and them.

Rick ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by anthony g on Jan 20th, 2012 at 7:35pm
Just wanted to share my story with you guys. I have been on vit D3 for probably about a year and a half when my doc down in florida at the time had me on 50,000 iu a week. After coming back to ny and discussing with my good friend batch we decided to take 10,000 iu a day along with the cal/mag fishoil. I have to say Im not the "typical chronic" but I am a typical "chronic stuck cluster shadows" although aint nothing typical about ch! :D For me Im not really sure if the D3 regime is what kept the beast from coming at higher kip levels or not but the regime definitely did not bring me pain free for sure. That being said it helps ALOT of people but not ALL. I continue to take it cause I know there is some benefit to it. I guess I am one of the 30% that it doesnt totally clear my head :( I hope anyone who tries this great protocol that it works for some pf times!!
Just wanted to give some input.
Best to all
Anthony

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 69Strat on Jan 20th, 2012 at 7:54pm
Been on Batch's regimen for 6 weeks. First two weeks, not much help. Next 3 weeks big improvement. Only 2 HAs/day and just Kip 3 or so. I'm chronic and have had up to 8 HAs in a 24hr period with some killers. I decided to try a little test a week ago and weaned off the 900mg of lithium I'd been taking since around the time I started the D3 trial. Oops. HAs back. 4 per day about Kip 5. Thoughts? Obviously I've considered the lithium was the preventative and the D3 hasn't helped as much as I thought.

Thanks!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Jan 20th, 2012 at 8:17pm
It could be the combination of the two that is so effective for you.

I use both this method plus verapamil as preventives that together are working great for me. Reducing either seems to have a negative impact for me.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 69Strat on Jan 20th, 2012 at 11:44pm
Think you're right. Back on Lithium.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RTD on Jan 22nd, 2012 at 10:21am
Well I'm going to give in and go back on the Verapimil. The vitamins just are not helping me at all. This is as bad of cycle as I've had in years. Don't know if I should stay on some kind of vitamin dosage with the verap. I heard something about the Calcium interacting with the verap in a bad way and don't know about mixing the two. I haven't felt this helpless to these things in a long time.

Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by j.p.m. on Jan 26th, 2012 at 11:33pm
12 days on the regimen, and I've been almost completely PF.  I've even been able to taper the Verapamil from 240mg to 80mg per day without any adverse affect.  I think it has helped increase my energy levels and mood as well.   Between the 02 and now this, I've gotten more help from these message boards than all the doctors I've seen combined.  Huge thanks to all, and keep spreading the word.

-JPM


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 27th, 2012 at 12:31am
That's awesome J.P.M. I too have found more relief and support from this site and its members then any medical resources.

If you could, please take the survey and share your results. It only takes 5 mins, and is completely anonymous.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 27th, 2012 at 1:41am
Cosworth, RTD, Hangup, Jamie, 69Strat, j.p.m., All,

Great news from CH'ers new to this regimen, and as always, good questions and comments.  Good on the new CH'ers who started this regimen and found it effective.  Your comments carry far more weight with CH'ers standing on the sideline wondering what to do than anything I could say. 

Please forgive the delay in responding.  I've run some of the questions and comments by experts in this area in order to make sure I address them as best possible. 

Like PlayDoh has asked, we still need more folks to take the survey if they've been taking the anti-inflammatory regimen for a month, had a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH, or gone pain free, whichever occurs first.  It's at the following link:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

With around a third of the survey responses I expected, there's nothing in the comments that suggest this regimen extends an episodic cycle.  On the other hand and to the contrary, there's more than sufficient evidence from the survey that this regimen cut the cycle short for the majority of the episodic CH'ers.

Based on the lab results many of you have posted, PM'd, or sent by email, the optimum target therapeutic range for 25(OH)D concentration for CH'ers to remain pain free appears to be 60-90 ng/mL, (150-225 nmol/L).  This is a higher concentration than the lower threshold of 30 ng/mL, ~ 50 nmol/L, used to express the normal reference range typically listed by medical diagnostic labs when they give you the results of your tests for 25(OH)D. 

I also have lab test data on 25(OH)D concentrations from CH'ers who were still having active CH...  The highest concentration reported in this category was 42 ng/mL, (105 nmol/L).

Accordingly, if your lab results come back at less than 60 ng/mL, (150 nmol/L), that could easily explain why the beast is hammering out a tattoo with barbed drumsticks on the backside of your eye.  If your labs come back at 30 ng/mL, (75 nmol/L) or less...  it's a no brainer... you're clearly deficient… but some of you already know that.  If you haven't taken the time to ask for this lab test...  you may be whistling in the dark...

Just be aware that most physicians will look at your lab results for 25(OH)D and tell you any concentration over 30 ng/mL or 51 nmol/L is in the "Normal" range...  when you know it needs to be higher.

What I've been trying to say is that for a CH'er who wants to be pain free of the beast and remain that way, the data collected so far suggest that we need to have our 25(OH)D concentration at or above 60 ng/ml, (150 nmol/L)... 

Even after we've had a favorable response, we'll still need to continue taking this regimen with a vitamin D3 dose that keeps building our 25(OH)D concentration so that it stabilizes in a therapeutic range.

That some medical diagnostic labs here in the US express concentrations in molarity/volume vs mass/volume may reflect some kind of Eurocentrism... or it may be just a simple matter of the type of test procedure they use... or that they're owned by a European corporation... 

I don't know... and it doesn't really matter...  they could express the 25(OH)D concentration in stones per cubit, furlongs per fortnight or miles per gallon... as long as it converts to a range of 25(OH)D concentration equivalent to 60 to 90 ng/mL, (150 to 225 nmol/L).

The dose of vitamin D3 we take to get into this range and have a therapeutic response appears to be the underlying question in many of the recent posts...  Calcium and the other mineral supplements, i.e., cofactors, appear to be a related topic as is whether or not to continue taking other prescribed CH preventatives.

Take a close look at the following chart that came from a 2003 study published in the American Journal of Nutrition (attached) on the 25(OH)D  response to oral dosing with vitamin D3 conducted by Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D.  Dr. Heaney is one of the Nations top endocrinologists dedicated to the study vitamin D3 as it relates to our overall health.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I've modified his original chart to show 25(OH)D concentrations in both ng/mL and nmol/L.  I've also overlaid the color bands that reflect 25(OH)D lab results provided by many of you both before and after going pain free while taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3.

There are a few things you need to take away from this chart.  The first point is if you're in the pink zone and getting whacked by CH day and night...  you need to have a sufficient intake of vitamin D3 for the resulting 25(OH)D concentration to reach and stabilize in the green zone.

The second point is how much vitamin D3 to take in order to get into the green zone.  As you can see from the chart, a vitamin D3 dose of 1,000 IU/day is not going to get you there...  In short, that dog won't hunt...

Moreover, a dose of 5,000 IU/day may or may not get some of us into the green zone... The other problem with a vitamin D3 dose this low is it could take two to three months to find out...  Given that most CH'ers, myself included, are an impatient lot, and we expect immediate results when we try a new treatment for our CH...  waiting that long for a response to a medication is UNSAT, a non-starter, and an unfortunate reason to say this regimen doesn't work when it may have had the dose been high enough.

That leaves us with a conservative vitamin D3 starting dose of 10,000 IU/day.  As you can see, each higher dose of vitamin D3 results in a steeper slope of the initial 25(OH)D response curve and a higher equilibrium end state.   It doesn't take much imagination to see that a dose of vitamin D3 higher than 10,000 IU/day should have an even steeper initial response curve.  Now I'm going to use the results of another study to show how to optimize the vitamin D3 dose into a statistical slam dunk if needed.

Take a look at the following chart also developed by Dr. Heaney from the 2011 study by Garland et al, published in the American Journal of Nutrition (attached).  It's based on data collected by GrassRootsHealth in their D*Action Project where 3667 people paid to have their 25(OH)D levels tested every six months while taking various doses of vitamin D3 up to and including 10,000 IU/day and higher.

See the following link for details of the D*Action Project: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I've modified this chart by drawing a line from a 25(OH)D concentration of 60 ng/mL to a point where it intersects the lower boundary of the 95% probability band around the 25(OH)D response curve from all doses of oral vitamin D3.  I've also drawn a second line from that point down to the vitamin D3 dose needed to reach that 25(OH)D concentration.  As you can see, that line comes down at a vitamin D3 dose of 20,000 IU/day.

Here's the take away...  While a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day is effective, and it will get most of us into the green zone, i.e., 25(OH)D concentration ≥ 60 ng/mL, (150 nmol/L) and for at least 70% of us who do respond with a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of our CH or go pain free...  a vitamin D3 dose of 20,000 IU/day will get 95% of us into the green zone... and likely a little faster.

What to do?  Let me first start with the obligatory non-disclaimer:  I'm not a doctor nor am I licensed to practice medicine or nutrition in the venue in which you reside... even though I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few years back...  ::)

Talk with your PCP or neurologist... whoever knows the most about your overall medical history, your CH and prescribed medications. 

I say this for two reasons...  The first is to keep my butt out of jail... and the second is to start spreading the news within the primary care and neurological community of practitioners treating CH'ers that we have a growing body of evidence that suggests this regimen of vitamins and minerals actually works to prevent CH.

You may be conducting nutritional CME with a few of them... Having said that, most physicians should be receptive and even fascinated when you explain what you want to do and why.  Provide the above data and analysis then prove it by asking for the lab test for 25(OH)D if you haven't already done so.

Now for the rest of the answer on what to do... and why... The general rule with respect to medications and supplements is to take a conservative approach...  meaning take only as much as needed to achieve a therapeutic response.  The best way to do that is start at a low dose and titrate up with progressively larger doses.

We're all a little different and we react differently to some medications...  we've heard that many times in many posts here on CH.com.

Having said that, let me challenge the conventional wisdom behind that statement... We're all carbon-based units and we all have the same number of chromosomes...  That means we should all respond to the same physiological rule sets that control human life...  under normal conditions.

For example, we should all respond to the same dose of vitamin D3, with the same eventual range of serum concentrations of 25(OH)D.  Studies have proven that.  Remember, vitamin D3 is the only "Free" vitamin.  Our bodies generate in the skin when exposed to the UVB in sunlight.  Also recall that vitamin D3 is not a true vitamin. It's actually a hormone precursor, and as such, our bodies need the cofactor minerals to generate it in sufficient quantity.

I can hear the wheels turning...  Where are we going with this discussion?  Here you go…  If we're all so different as CH'ers, and we all respond differently to some medications... then will someone please 'splain to me the following:  If we're all so different...  Why is it that we all have, under normal conditions, the exact same body temperature of 98.6ş F (37ş C), the same arterial pH of 7.35 to 7.45, the same serum calcium at 2.1 to 2.6 mmol/L... and the list goes on...

So lets review the bidding...  So far, 70% of the CH'ers who start this regimen have a favorable response with a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH.  95% of them found relief within the first 10 days with some in as little as 24 to 48 hours.  88% of these CH'ers enjoyed a 24-hour period pain free of their CH within the first 20 days...  Of them, 66% have remained pain free.

Most of these CH'ers were taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, but there are growing number of CH'ers who are following the treatment protocol I posted and have titrated up on their vitamin D3 dose...  some up to 30,000 IU/day.

It's ok to increase the dose of vitamin D3 above 10,000 IU/day, but only after 10 days to two weeks just to make sure there's no delayed reaction and that you've given your kidneys and liver time to come up to full production of 25(OH)D.  Even then, it's best to titrate up on the vitamin D3 by 5,000 I.U. every three to four days. 

If your CH pattern responds favorably or you reach 30,000 IU/day whichever occurs first, stay at that dose.  Also make sure you tell your PCP or neurologist...  You'll also need another lab test for 25(OH)D in 30 days along with calcium and parathyroid hormone (PTH).

Calcium...  Why is it part of this regimen?  Simple...  Most of us don't get enough of it from dietary sources.  The calcium citrate and citric acid in lemonade or limeade also forms a buffer in the stomach that can elevate arterial pH making it less acid and more alkaline.  Calcium citrate is also easier on the gut and doesn't need to be taken with food like calcium carbonate.

Calcium is the most prevalent mineral in our bodies and 99% of it is in out bones.  Our nerves wouldn't function if the serum concentration of calcium is too low or too high.  Calcium homeostasis keeps our serum concentration in a narrow range of 2.1-2.6 mmol/L, (8.4-10.5 mg/dL).  The two primary controllers in this process are calcitonin and parathyroid hormone.

If we perturb that homeostatic balance of serum calcium concentration by dumping more vitamin D3 and it's active metabolite 25(OH)D into the blood stream, they trigger a reaction that absorbs more calcium from the gut into the bloodstream...  If sufficient calcium is not present in the gut...  this process will take it from the bones...

If there's sufficient calcium in the gut, calcium homeostasis with its primary controllers, calcitonin and parathyroid hormone, takes control. Excess serum calcium is either added to the bones through accretion, or the kidneys excrete it...

Finally, as most of us will need to stay on a daily dose of vitamin D3 to remain pain free of our CH for years if not longer...  it's prudent to include at least 500 mg. of supplemental calcium to help prevent bone loss...

Why do we need the cofactors, i.e., magnesium, vitamin K, zinc and boron?  Simple... The Vitamin D Council says we do...  These supplements all play a role in the kidneys and liver as they metabolize vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D. 

How much to take is a good question.   I thank my dumb luck of selecting the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate as my source of supplemental calcium.  Two of these tablets provides 500 mg/day calcium, some extra vitamin D3, magnesium, zinc and boron...  It may be a little light on magnesium and there's no vitamin K...  but that's an easy fix.

Omega 3 Fish Oil has anti-inflammatory properties that may be helping to hold down the neurogenic inflammation that's part of the cluster headache syndrome.  It also does wonders in controlling and lowering the triglycerides or fatty lipids we burn for energy, store as fat, or that clog the arteries in our hearts...

That brings us to the frequently prescribed CH preventatives...  So far, none of them appear to interfere with the anti-inflammatory regimen... As long as a prescribed preventative is effective... continue to take it...  If it's not effective...  ask yourself... "Why am I taking it?"  Talk with your PCP or neurologist about tapering off of preventatives that are clearly not working...  after you've been on the anti-inflammatory regimen for at least a week to 10 days...

There's always going to be a red flag raised on taking calcium supplements with verapamil...  This is really a non-problem...  There are a lot of folks taking verapamil for a heart condition...  and they still need calcium supplements for one reason or another.  If their cardiologists can come up with a treatment schedule that permits them to take both verapamil and calcium supplements...  your neurologist ought to be capable of doing the same thing...   If you're unsure, skip the calcium and see what happens…

Finally we have the comorbid conditions... i.e., medical conditions you may have other than CH...  In other words, not normal... Some of these medical conditions are unrelated...  others can clearly have an impact on CH patterns and treatments.

From the above discussions, medical conditions that affect the GI tract, kidneys, liver, thyroid, and parathyroid may have an impact on the body's capacity to metabolize vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D...  There are several others with the potential to cause problems like diabetes, COPD, sinusitis, and allergic reactions...

The bottom line here follows...  If the anti-inflammatory regimen has not resulted in a favorable response with a reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH after 30 days or less...  there may be a good reason... other than... "It didn't work for me..."  Ask your PCP or neurologist to look for it.

Hope this helps,

Take care,

V/R, Batch


http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Garland.pdf (160 KB | 0 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Jan 27th, 2012 at 3:23am
I feel like printing that post out a few hundred thousand times and mailing it to every CH'er, Neurologist, Doctor and pharmacist alive today.

You always seem to sum up every bit of pertinent info, in the most clear and easy to understand way. I wholeheartedly believe you should write a book and/or medical journal.

I recently watched a TV show (The Nature of things with David Suzuki), about Autism (Autism Enigma). Out of all the experts and scientists, it was a mother of an autistic child who did research. She noted how her Autistic child had abnormal stools and learned of a bacteria in the gut that could be responsible.

She hypothesized that this bacterial imbalance could play a role in Autism and wrote numerous medical researchers regarding the matter. Only one took her notion seriously and actually implemented a study. Low and behold the children's autism nearly disappeared and they became almost normal while taking medication to effect the stomachs bacteria appropriately. However the effects eventually 'wore off', sort to speak, due to the nature of resiliency.

Yet this Gut-Brain-Autism relationship is now at the forefront of Autism research. All started by a house-wife. I love it.

Sorry to get off track, but I think someday the world of CH will look back at Batch's work, and to some extent NHS, as the catalyst of great understanding and effective treatment.

I can't thank you enough for your work Batch. You have in no exaggeration, have given me a great part of my life back. To be PF is such a blessing, and I rejoice in it every morning I wake up fully rested and not drained of most of my energy and optimism for the future. I have a 1 1/2 year old whom I now get to spend even more time with. I could go on for hours listing the ways my life is better, and its only been just over a month.

"Thank you" seems such a weak reward I can give, yet if my sincerity can somewhat strengthen that reward, I hope it does.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jonmach on Feb 1st, 2012 at 10:56am
Great Thread
I have been controlling the beast with pharmaceutical grade nutritional for 10  years.  oxygen has been an incredible friend for years.
I take quite the regimen of nutritional 3 things being the key to effectiveness
1. Omega 3 fatty acids.    there are many on the market but few that have the proper dosages of DHA vs  EPA. and the process and origin of where and how they are farmed and produced.  also Oleic acid are Omega 9 fatty acids and a key to helping the DHA EPA enter the system effectively.  the Pharmaceutical grade avail by prescription only are your best bet.  or email me and i will hook you up with the best on the market OTC.
2. OPC's very high powered antioxidants.  great anti inflammatory qualities with better saturation of O2 on the cellular level being key.  Oxygen therapy on the cellular level
OPC's again ingredients quality and quantity are key.  email me and i will share the best i have found.
3. Vit D3 with k2 this is very good for cardiovascular health and healthy arteries.  once again o2 on the cell level.  Sun Shine in a bottle.  once again quality is key and i can help with what i have found to be the best. 
i also utilize an antioxidant called Orac similar to OPC's Different family.  also use Colloidal minerals a multi vit and Co-Enzyme Q 10 also for cardiovascular health and o2 efficiency.
I have taken control of the beast for better than a decade with my regimen and forgot just how bad things can get till last year when i got lazy with nutritional for 6 months.  got a visitor i never wanted to see again.  back on track and am in cycle now with no break thru.  i would say i spend 180 to 220 dollars a month and what i recieve for this investment is pricless.  been to hell and back a few times in this game.  I have been off all pharmaceuticlas since 1998. Hope this helps and am here for anyone who needs me.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
719 243 3229 / bushido39@yaoo.com
Jon M

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on Feb 13th, 2012 at 10:47pm
Hi Batch

  I'm back online after several months. 

  First post has to be a THANK YOU.  The last 02 tanks (six "E"s) I got was 10/14/11 . . . . I would have had at least two full tanks when I got them.  I currently have two full and one partially full tanks.  This past summer  was horrendous and was using 2-3 tanks daily . . . many faster-than-normal Kip 8s.

  PAIN FREE SINCE SECOND WEEK OF NOVEMBER!   . . . after being chronic since 1/01 . . . normal triggers aren't affecting me (exhaust fumes, solvents, etc.) . . . I've even had a couple of double brandy/water drinks this past two weeks (Still nervous about the "beer test"). . . . I'm ecstatic . . .pretty sure I can get used to this . . . . . and if this (unaccustomed) PF time continues I'm optimistic about working again.

  Thanks again, and now that my puter' is up and running again I'll be back in the boat grabbing an oar.

   Be Safe,    PFDANS

      Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 17th, 2012 at 6:29am
Hey Richard,

Thanks for the update...  Three months PF...  Woo Hoo...  That's exactly the kind of success story I love to hear from a CH'er taking the anti-inflammatory regimen... 

I'm particularly happy you're optimistic about going back to work...  It's an amazing feeling isn't it?

Now you're in the same boat and along for the ride with me and all the other CCH types who responded to this regimen...  It's a wonderful cruise ship called Excellent QOL...  Something none of us thought possible with CH.

The admission price for this pain free pleasure cruise is you'll just need to stay on this regimen a good while if not for life like me, but that's a small price to pay as we both still have CCH.  It's the vitamin D3 that's keeping us PF and likely keeping us a lot more healthy in the process.

And PlayDoh...  Thanks again for the kind words.  The proof is in the pudding... It's not what I've been saying, it's what so many other CH'ers, like you and Richard, are telling us about their response to the anti-inflammatory regimen that counts most.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Danish girl on Feb 23rd, 2012 at 9:14am
Ok here goes.
I,m new here and not a sufferer myself, but married to one the last 15 years. He only got diagnosed in 2010, so we're still trying to work out what works and what doesn't....though he has known the beast for ever. It was just diagnosed as migraine earlier on.

I read about this on the danish forum, where the well known NIels has been very active "selling" the D-vitamine-treatment. So now I've spend the last 48 hours reading in this forum, trying to get an overvue of just a small amount of all the information in here. And what a great place to be  :D I'm overwhelmed!

Well, we started the treatment with a smaller amount of D3, magnesia, zink, omega3 and so on 6 nights ago, after the first week of a cycle building up. And after adjusting the D3 to a slightly higher dose, my husband has only had 2 small attacks the last 2 days - and is at work today! Something that would NEVER have occurred during his "normal" 5-7 weeks cycles.  :o

So we're VERY optimistic and continues.

Thank you so SO much for this great source of knowledge and inspiration. And thanks to all sharing their experiences in here.
Love from Denmark :)

P.S. he's also on the O2 (- this is what all CH-sufferers is offered to have for treatment in Denmark - combined with verapamil and different sumatriptan products.) The O2 is delivered and everything :D
Hooray for free healthcare - even though we then have to pay 38% in taxes to our government  :o...as the lowest income tax.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 23rd, 2012 at 12:36pm
Hey there Danish Girl,

Thank you for the wonderful news about your husband's response to vitamin D3 and the other supplements.  Niels is spot on recommending this regimen.  He tried to tell us about the use of vitamin D3 as a CH preventative in 2009...

Take your husband in for the lab test for 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D, the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3.  As he is still having an occasional CH, I'm guessing his concentration of 25(OH)D will be somewhere between 40 and 60 ng/mL, (100 and 150 nmol/L).

Thanks again for the wonderful news.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PlayDoh on Feb 25th, 2012 at 4:02pm
I had an appointment at the University hospitals Headache clinic, yet I've been PF for over 2 months now. I brought in a list of the regime ingredients, and told the Neurologist how it stopped my cluster in 2 days.

She didn't seem to be that impressed, or already knew about it. It was a pretty quick appointment, and she only had time to let me know what to do if I get another cluster. She actually said to me, "if your clusters return", in a manor that implied the regime may keep them away. Even though I didn't suggest that.

She showed me a list of Vitamins that they give to people with "normal headaches". It had everything but Omega 3 and Calcium. Yet only 2000 IU of D3 was suggested.

Its at least interesting to note that I went PF while only taking the regime with only 1200 IU of D3, by accident. Also that she reminded me that Verapamil is the 'go-to" medication, which is a Calcium-Channel Blocker. I continue to suspect that Calcium has a large role to play in my relief, yet the interactions of Calcium and D3 make distinction almost moot.

I feel I should have been more explicit about the Regime, but I was shocked when even the nurse asked me if I was taking supplements while filling out the chart for the Dr.

Great News on the success Danish girl and RichardN. Dont forget to take the survey if you can spare 5 mins of time. Its best to wait a couple weeks of being on the regime, or longer.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Feb 25th, 2012 at 9:54pm
Hey Gang,
I have good news to report.  It's taken almost 9 weeks and I've finally had a week and a half that is pain free.  I think the regimen has been successful for me. 
My current cycle started at the start of November and none of the standard verpamil/prednisone treatments were able to break it.  After 3 weeks on the Vit D treatment my 25(OH) D level was at 23.5 ng/ml.  Over time on the vit d regimen the headache intensity dropped over time and I started to have pf days.  The longer I stayed with the treatment the greater number of pf days that I was having.  It got to a point that I didn't need an abortive for the mild hits. 
I did up my dose of vit d (to 15k) for almost 1.5 months to get my 25(oh)D up into the safe zone faster.  Now that I've been pf I've started to wean back down. 

I did notice something interesting.  During the phase when I was raising my vit d level the hits were getting milder.  When I came down with a cold, that caused me to breath through my mouth (which can effect your body's ph) the intensity and frequency of the hits increased.  Now during this time I would estimate that I was still on the edge of the active cluster headache territory, according to Batch's chart.  It maybe coincidence but something to keep in the back of our minds. 

I did make one change to the regimen.  I upped the dose of magnesium to 400mg/day.  I had read at a number of different natural health sites that people taking 400mg/day of magnesium had beneficial responses to various types of headaches. 

Next time I'm in to see my pcp I will try to get her to run the 25(oh)d test to see where the level is while pf. 

Who would have thought that such a simple regimen could have such a positive effect for such a number of people.  Thank you to all those people who have helped further this treatment.  It really does make a big difference to so many people. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 27th, 2012 at 10:11am
Hey MM&I,

Great status report on your experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen.  I'm happy it's working well for you.  The fact that you had a serum concentration of 23.5 ng/mL 25(OH)D after three weeks on this regimen certainly explains why it took 9 weeks to finally go completely pain free...

That's a great message and lesson in patience for a lot of the CH'ers who have yet to respond to this regimen or gave up taking it when they didn't have a favorable response after three to four weeks.

Dr. Peter Lewis, M.D., an integrative physician in Australia who regularly treats patients deficient in vitamin D3 indicated he has seen many cases where his patients started vitamin D3 therapy at 10,000 IU/day with a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 20 ng/mL, and it took up to three months to reach 60 ng/mL.

According to Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D., one of the Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy, there are a lot of factors involved in building 25(OH)D levels.  These factors range from the vitamin D3 dose, the rate at which vitamin D3 is metabolized by the kidneys and liver into 25(OH)D, how fast the body consumes 25(OH)D and how fast the body's fatty tissues absorb it.

If you throw in a comorbid medical condition that affects the kidneys, liver, or thyroid...  all bets are off on how long it will take to elevate the serum concentration of 25(OH)D to therapeutic levels sufficient to prevent CH.

Even a common cold appears to have an affect on my CH.  My headache logs before I started the anti-inflammatory regimen indicated the same increase in frequency and severity during a cold as you experienced. 

When I asked my doctor at NIH if he knew why that happens... (he also has a Ph.D in immunology), He explained the inflammation associated with a viral infection like a cold (viral rhinitis), could easily spread beyond the upper respiratory tract including the sphenopalatine ganglia that link directly to the areas in and around the trigeminal nerves that affect the cluster headache.

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Feb 28th, 2012 at 10:35pm
I've been on the program for several weeks now and no change.  If anything the beast has awakened.  The last 5 weeks have been brutal.  However, I had blood work done today, so I'll be hearing from the Dr soon about the D3 levels.  I'm planning to up the dosage substantially to see if I can get any relief then.

So glad to hear from all that it works for!  I always rejoice at good fortune.  It gives hope that one day I'll find the magic bullet too.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 29th, 2012 at 1:55am
Hey Jerry,

Hang in there...  Having an old hand CH'er like you give this regimen a try is encouraging...  Knowing your 25(OH)D levels is an important indicator.

Upping the vitamin D3 dose might just speed up the process...  Several CH'ers have done this with success by taking 15,000 IU/day for 3 to 5 days to see if that works, then increasing the dose to 20,000 IU/day.  And don't forget to take the caldium, as well as the cofactor minerals, magnesium, zinc and boron.

9 weeks to three months for a favorable response is not unreasonable if the initial 25(OH)D levels were lower than 30 ng/mL

The other thing to check involves other possible comorbid medical disorders.  CH'ers who have had lengthy response times or not responded at all to this regimen, have also suffered from one or more conditions affecting the heart. liver, kidney, thyroid, pancreas, allergies or digestive disorders...

Again, hang in there and Semper Fi

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bsic on Mar 3rd, 2012 at 10:35am
Guys,

Some information on my history with this regimen.  I can say with 100% certainty that it works, but i also am wondering if it is prolonging my cycle. 

This current cycle has gone for 3X my typical and still going strong.

  • ~Dec 1, my cycle starts.
  • Mid Dec i read this very thread
  • Dec 22nd I measure my 25OHD and start the regimen at 10000IU.

At the time i started it, my 25OHD was 20.9 ng/ml.  I started taking 10000UI and initially my attacks intensified.. after a week or so they started aborting much faster with O2 than they had before the regimen.  But still waking up 3-4 times per night.

  • Jan 1st : I then tried increasing to 20000IU 

Within 2-3 days, they tapered off to 1-2 hits per day, VERY light (kip1-2), and a few min on the O2 nailed em.  I kept this up for a few weeks.

  • Jan 15th - pain free period begins for a few days for the first time. 

I had my 25OHD measured again on 1/30.. this time, it was 104.  Most nights PF, some with weaker attacks near my normal wake time, and a few rare days where a stubborn one popped up.   But very tolerable and far better.

  • Feb 5th, they all but disappeared. 
  • Feb 9th, I lowered my D back down to 10000IU for three days

After those three days I was getting hit again!  And hit BAD.  Moving up to kip4-6, and getting 2-3 at night.  I increased back to 20000, and over the next 1-2 weeks id have some good nights, some bad.

  • Feb 12th, increase back to 20000IU

Over the next 10 days- some nights good, some not so good.  None awful.  A couple hit Kip7 but O2 nailed em fairly quickly.

  • Feb 24th, pain free again... 100%.  I go 7 nights PF without a trace of even a shadow.


And on top of that, i just FELT good.  Felt like i did physically/emotionally before the cycle started in Dec.  I felt like ME again for the first time... the previous pain free periods had me cautiously optimistic, but still felt tired, cranky, depressed, and just not myself.  But this time was different-- 7 days of feeling great, no pain, just out in the clear.  Life is good... right?


  • March 1, I go one night where I (accidentally) skip the regimen.
  • March 3rd (today) got hit twice again.  





So the conclusion is definitely that the D regimen helps.  Every time i reduce or stop taking it, ~2 days later I get hit again.   So it WORKS.  For me.


BUT- -- i have NEVER EVER had a cycle nearly this long.  Usually 3-5 weeks total.  We are on week 15.   

So I am not only fearful that this D is pronlonging my cycle, but at SOME POINT my 25OHD is just going to get to toxic levels.  Ive been taking 20000IU for months now.  I cant keep taking that much, but its apparent that if i stop, my CH will come back quickly.

If you have the same type of story, please SHARE here so all are well informed.

Bill

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 4th, 2012 at 4:40pm
Hey Bill,

Thank you for the excellent feedback on your experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen.  This is exciting info...

Let's start with your initial concentration of 25(OH)D at 20.5 ng/mL...  You were clearly vitamin D3 deficient...

From the data I've collected so far, an initial increase in severity like you experienced happens about 5% of the time...  We don't know why this happens just yet.

However, the first favorable response with a reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH at a little over 3 weeks given your your initial 25(OH)D level and dose of 20,000 IU/day is consistent with response times for other CH'ers who had a favorable reaction to the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Regarding your concern about reaching a toxic level of 25(OH)D...  The best available information from several studies indicates the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication is 200 ng/mL, (500 nmol/L). 

We all respond to vitamin D3 with slightly different 25(OH)D response rates, but the response curves are all shaped much the same just shifted higher or lower.  They all tend to reach an equilibrium at the six month mark as the slope of the curve reaches zero and goes essentially flat.

Your 25(OH))D concentration that tested at 104 ng/mL after 39 days looks about right according to the equation for estimating 25(OH)D response shown in the following chart.  This formula was developed by Dr. Robert Heaney M.D., one of the Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy:

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I used his 25(OH)D response formula adjusted for a vitamin D3 intake of 20,000 IU/day shown as the dashed line in the chart above and plotted the results of your two lab tests at day 0 and day 40.  As you can see there's a good agreement.  I then extrapolated the 25(OH)D response out to the six month mark.

Again this is just a rough estimate, but it appears your 25(OH)D concentration will reach equilibrium near 147 ± 20 ng/mL by day 180 at a dose of 20,000 IU/day.

I'm not a doctor so the only way to know for sure where your 25(OH)D concentrations stands at this point is to get tested again, only this time ask for a chemistry panel lab test with CBC (complete blood count) so your doctor can check your calcium and magnesium levels as well as to make sure your other lab values are within the normal reference ranges.  A test for your parathyroid hormone (PTH) level is also a good idea.

The attached study by Garland et al, concluded that "Universal intake of up to 40,000 IU vitamin
D per day is unlikely to result in vitamin D toxicity.
"

There's also an excellent discussion of vitamin D3 toxicity at the following Vitamin D Council link:

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Now for the exciting part...  As it appears you've reached a therapeutic response at 25(OH)D concentration ~115 ng/mL, you're going to need to work with your doctor to determine the optimum maintenance dose of vitamin D3 to remain pain free of your CH.

As long as your 25(OH)D serum concentration remains below the 200-250 ng/mL threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication and your serum calcium level remains within the normal reference range, you're likely safe continuing a therapeutic dose of 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 at least until your next lab test.  Having said that, a monthly test of your 25(OH)D serum concentration is prudent.

Discuss this with your doctor and show him this post along with a printed copy of the attached article by Garland et al.

As your goal now is to determine an optimum maintenance dose of vitamin D3, when you've reached the point where you've remained PF for at least a month at a vitamin D3 dose of 20,000 IU/day, test your 25(OH)D level then reduce your vitamin D3 intake down to 15,000 IU/day then test again after a month. 

If you remain PF at a vitamin D3 dose of 15,000 IU/day, your 25(OH)D concentration should stabilize around 120 ± 15 ng/mL at the six month mark.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Garland.pdf (160 KB | 0 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:49pm
Hi Pete,

Thanks for the kind words about me being old (or whatever you said  :D)  i saw my GP (resident) today and she also called in her attending Physician.  They were a little concerned about the amount of Vit D I was taking and were afraid I would go over 100 ng/ml if I continue.  I was at 73.3.  I'm not concerned about toxicity, but my wife was in the room and I'm getting a bit of flack.  Would you suggest going to 20,000IU or should I try 15,000 for a while first? 

I really appreciate what you are doing here.  I was trying a different regimen that did not pan out, else I would have been trying this one sooner.  I had wondered if there might be something to the Vit D theory when Niels first broached it when I got thinking about the much higher incidence of CH in the Northern and Southern climes where sunlight is limited for longer periods of time. 

I do hope this works.  Being an "old hand" as you said, I'm about to run out of options.

BTW, the doc also got the wife wound up about O2 usage today too.  He thinks 40 lpm is way to much, saying once the blood is oxygenated it can't do anything else for you.  I know better, as do you, and he was not interested in any papers on it either.  I think the next time I go in I'll be taking some of your work in with me and educate him whether he wants it or not.

All the best,
Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 6th, 2012 at 2:51am

Callico wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:49pm:
BTW, the doc also got the wife wound up about O2 usage today too.  He thinks 40 lpm is way to much, saying once the blood is oxygenated it can't do anything else for you.


Well once a doctor starts ignoring published scientific papers from reputable, peer reviewed journals it says that it's time they changed their title from doctor to something more applicable to someone practicing pseudo-science.

We know what works and there is clear medical evidence to back it up.

Mind you, I was told that anything over 10lpm would make my blood boil by one medical "professional" and another said that oxygen was a dangerous drug that people should be weaned off!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Mar 6th, 2012 at 10:53am
Mike, I don't think it is so much ignoring the articles as not even reading them.  CH is not his line of practice and I am just one of many patients he deals with as Attending Physician to several Residents.  Fortunately, my Neuro is more knowledgeable and understands O2 usage.  He is the one who gave me the script for O2.  His only question was "How much do you want me to write it for?"

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 8th, 2012 at 2:53pm
Hey Jerry,

Thanks for the update…  and sorry to be so slow in responding…  I've been trying to compile some of the anti-inflammatory regimen survey data for the last few days…

Regarding how much vitamin D3 to take…  It's dealer's choice on whether to take 15,000 or 20,000 IU/day of vitamin D3.  The higher daily dose might push you into remission a bit faster, but in either case, it's wise to have the 25(OH)D lab test every month until it reaches equilibrium and stabilizes around the six month mark. 

If you can tell me the number of days you were taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 before your last test for 25(OH)D I can work up an estimate on the rate you're building this metabolite and where it will reach equilibrium and stabilize at a given dose of vitamin D3.

It's not surprising that your physicians got antsy about your 25(OH)D serum concentration going over 100 ng/mL.  Staying within the "normal" reference range for medical diagnostic lab results is generally considered a safe medical practice. 

The best information available indicates the vitamin D3 intoxication lower threshold for 25(OH)D concentration is 200 ng/mL.  That would take a vitamin D3 dose >40,000 IU/day for at least 3 months...

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Read through the References at the bottom of this page...

To put the "risk" of hypervitaminosis from vitamin D3 in perspective...  There was one death in 2004 attributed to vitamin D3...  it was a child and mistakenly given over 1,000,000 I.U. vitamin D3. None since...

At nearly the same time, there were 59 confirmed deaths due to aspirin poisoning in 2003 and 147 deaths known to be associated with acetaminophen-containing products (Tylenol).

Health risks from a vitamin D3 deficiency are far greater...

It's also not surprising that your physicians opined that an oxygen flow rate of 40 liters/minute is too high when it comes to oxygenation of hemoglobin…  That's entirely true, but unfortunately that opinion doesn't consider carbon dioxide levels that require a greater level of lung ventilation to reduce than provided by an oxygen flow rate of 15 to 25 liters/minute.

If you challenge most physicians why the upper boundary of the 25(OH)D reference range is set at 100 ng/mL, most will give you a blank look like you're speaking in tongues…  Many physicians are frequently a little confused at who to believe when it comes to interpreting 25(OH)D lab results and it's not their fault. 

Testing for vitamin D metabolites has exploded over the last few years with some diagnostic labs reporting an increase from a few hundred tests for 25-Hydroxyvitamin D a month three years ago to over 12,000 a month in 2011. 

Add in the confusion factor of whether or not to use total Vitamin D or D2/D3 and the number of questions starts going up.  Immunoassays and protein binding assays can only report total.  Total vitamin D has been the only measurement available for years and it appears to be the most widely accepted.  However, chemical assays can report both vitamin D2 and D3. Whether or not that’s needed is controversial.

Compound that with at least five different assay methods and no clear standards until 2009 when NIST stepped in.  The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), in collaboration with the National Institutes of Health's Office of Dietary Supplements, developed a new reference sample for vitamin D in blood serum to help laboratories validate the accuracy of their test methods.  The NIST Standard Reference Material (SRM) 972, “Vitamin D in Human Serum,” represents a first step toward standardization of vitamin D testing.

From the limited research I've done on the topic of interpreting 25(OH)D results, the lower category where Deficient is less than 20 ng/ml, (50 nmol/L) and Insufficient is defined as 20-30 ng/mL,.  It appears these categories are based on epidemiological studies of bone malformation in children (rickets) and bone weakness, softness, or fracture in adults (osteomalacia) relative to vitamin D3 intake.  It also appears the "Normal" reference range of 30-100 ng/mL is based on population samples of "Normal" people… 

Unfortunately, that begs the question…  Which population of "Normal" people?  A population sample from Southern California or Arizona can have a "Normal" reference range that will vary significantly from a population sample from Massachusetts or Main simply due to the difference in available incident UV-B in sunlight and lifestyle.

Now for the good news…  There are a growing number of vitamin D3 experts like doctors Heaney, Garland, Vieth, Cannell, Hollis and Holick who are trying to bring about a better understanding of vitamin D3 testing, dosing, deficiency and the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3.  More importantly, how best to treat vitamin D3 deficiency, and how to interpret lab tests for 25(OH)D in concert with related lab tests for calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and parathyroid hormone (PTH). 

Google any of the names of any of the above along with "vitamin D" and you'll find the results from a number of studies conducted over the last 10 years with some very compelling conclusions that support higher doses of vitamin D3 and the safety of higher concentrations of 25(OH)D.

It's no secret that I favor the use of safer and more natural non-invasive methods of controlling our disorder as opposed to the very powerful prescription medications with all their side effects.  That's why I've spent over five years explaining why oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation is safe and so much more effective than oxygen therapy at the lower flow rates.

What I've been trying to do over the last year is try to establish a causal link between our cluster headache disorder and a vitamin D3 deficiency…  At this point, thanks to well over 150 CH'ers here at CH.com and another group of CH'ers at ClusterBusters…  that causal link had gone well past being anecdotal…  It's very real.

The next challenge has been to try to establish the 25(OH)D concentration threshold where most of the CH'ers who responded to the anti-inflammatory regimen either experienced a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH or went pain free.  So far CH'ers who have had this lab test while still experiencing active CH have mostly seen their results come back at < 30 ng/mL, (75 nmol/L), but a few have tested as high as 42 ng/mL, (105 nmol/L) 25(OH)D while still experiencing active CH.

The lower threshold for CH'ers who started the anti-inflammatory regimen and experienced a favorable CH response to this regimen with vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day with a significant (>60%) reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH, appears to be at a 25(OH)D concentration of ≥ 60 ng/mL, (150 nmol/L). 

However, having said that, there have been a few chronic CH'ers, previously diagnosed as intractable to all the mainstream preventatives and abortives except for oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation. who took much longer to experience a favorable response to this regimen and their 25(OH)D concentration has tested > 100 ng/mL. 

Given the data collected so far, the optimum target therapeutic range for 25(OH)D concentration to be free CH pain or at least significantly a reduced number of CH that require only a few minutes of oxygen when they do occur…  appears to be 60-100 ng/mL, (150-250 nmol/L) as shown in the following chart.

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Enough for now…  Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Mar 13th, 2012 at 11:48pm
It is a little soon to draw any real conclusions, but following my Drs appt of last Monday I started slipping in an extra 5,000 IU of Vit D bringing me up to 15,000 units (without telling the wife).  Thursday and Fri were much improved over what I have been experiencing for the last 7 weeks, but I can't say for sure that my high cycle ended.  However, Sat I had only one hit of about a k4 and Sun and Mon were basically PF.  I came down with a bad cold over the weekend and Mon was in bed all day and basically didn't eat, so I didn't take my meds either, including the vitamins.  Today, Tues, I got hit twice, about a K4-5.  Time will tell, and it may be that as with every other methodology I've tried I get good results for a couple of months and it is back, but I am encouraged.

One reason I have not been much of a supporter around here the last year or so has been that I've just gotten to the place I couldn't handle it any more.  I came around for the support and to see what was happening with people and to cheer for others who were having successes, but I just didn't have it in me any more to be the kind of support I used to like to be.  I can't remember the last time I went on the introductions page, just because I can't handle all the newbies coming in with all that they need.  Sometimes the well just runs dry.

I said all of that simply to say this.  I am so grateful for those of you who have been involved in this work, in the O2 work, in ClusterBusters, and the Testosterone project.  You have kept hope alive, even when I didn't have any to give out to others.  I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joe-P on Mar 14th, 2012 at 11:57am
Batch, thanks for your initiative and motivation for researching these data. 

Is there any indication that taking only vit D supplements would succeed in interupting the CH cycle? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Mar 14th, 2012 at 3:22pm
Joe, I'll not speak for Batch, but I know you will need to supplement calcium or the Vit D will strip it from your bones. 

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joe-P on Mar 15th, 2012 at 6:59am
I didn't know that and it is good to know.  I was wondering about taking Vit D only, because the fish oil doesn't agree with me.  Thanks for providing the info. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 15th, 2012 at 2:19pm
Hey Jerry,

I suspect by now you've had a few less CH as the regimen starts to take hold...  Bumping the vitamin D3 dose up to 15,000 IU/day should be sufficient to speed things up without any worry about vitamin D3 intoxication. 15,000 IU/day is still at the low end of the therapeutic scale for vitamin D3.

I just finished reading a study of 40 patients suffering from relapsing MS and they were taking 40,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and 1,000 mg/day calcium for six months before dropping back to 10,000 IU/day.  No evidence of vitamin D3 intoxication...

Joe, in response to your question...  there's every reason to suspect taking just the vitamin D3 will work to prevent CH...  The down side of doing so is the potential for loss of bone density over time... 

Vitamin D3 affects calcium homeostasis... It pulls calcium from the gut and pushes it into the blood stream...  If sufficient calcium is not available in the gut, calcium homeostasis will pull it from the bones...

As calcium is one of the most important minerals needed for a multitude of bodily functions, our bodies have sophisticated mechanisms to control blood calcium concentrations in a very narrow range.

The overall process is called homeostasis and hormonal control of calcium homeostasis requires parathyroid hormone (PTH), 1,25-dihydroxy Vitamin D3 (Vitamin D3), and Calcitonin.

Taking 500 to 1,000 mg/day calcium won't hurt anything and it provides a good insurance against bone loss.  If you have problems taking calcium supplements, there are plenty of food types you can eat with high calcium content that would bring your total daily calcium intake up to 500 mg/day.

It's also best to take the cofactor minerals, magnesium, zinc, and boron as they enhance the process of metabolizing vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D and on to it's active hormonal form.

The best thing to do is talk with your doctor and have him order up lab tests for 25(OH)D, calcium, magnesium and PTH after you've been on this regimen for 30 to 90 days. 

The optimum therapeutic range for 25(OH)D where most CH'ers experienced relief from their CH is a concentration of 60-90 ng/mL.  Having said that, I've seen lab results from a few Chronic CH'ers who didn't respond until their 25(OH)D reached 110 ng/mL.

Although 110 ng/mL is above the normal reference range for 25(OH)D, it is still well below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL.   At 200 ng/mL 25(OH)D, calcium homeostasis goes out of whack with elevated serum calcium and lots of calcium pumped over the side in urine...  However, that would take over 40,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for most of us...

In order to reach the obvious goal of the anti-inflammatory regimen and prevent CH, we need to find the lowest level of 25(OH)D that keeps us pain free then continue to take whatever dose of vitamin D3 that can maintain that level.   Again that would be a serum 25(OH)D concentration of 60 to 90 ng/mL and the best available response data indicates we would need to take between 5,000 to 10,000 IU/day to maintain that concentration of 25(OH)D.

This is why it's wise to work with your PCP to get a lab test as soon as you experience a favorable response to have your 25(OH)D concentration measured. At that point you can lower your vitamin D3 dose by 5,000 I.U. and see what happens. 

If you're still pain free after 30 days, get another lab test for 25(OH)D.  If your CH return, and I've had this happen, just bump the dose back up by 5,000 I.U.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joe-P on Mar 15th, 2012 at 3:04pm
Thanks for answering.  The biochemistry I have seen here is always fascinating.  I usually am able to prevent my cycles using melatonin, nortriptyline, and cyproheptadine (2x day), but 2 of them are pharmaceuticals and I'd prefer more natural ways.  Thanks again for replying.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 15th, 2012 at 7:50pm
Joe,

I'm with you...  Giving our bodies the supplements and micronutrients they need to make us healthy is a lot better than taking invasive medications we think will make us feel better... but all to frequently don't without a some undesirable side effects.

Take care and hang in there.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Mar 17th, 2012 at 1:38am
I think it is working.  However, it appears to this uneducated and ignorant mind that it is not killing the CH, but just keeping it at bay.  I don't drink, so I didn't give it the beer test, but I gave it the Bacon test tonight.  WRONG move!  About 30 mins later (after I had thought I had beat it) here came a K7, and I forgot I had an energy drink in my pocket.  I let it get a good hold before trying to kill it with the 5hr Energy and it only kicked it down to about a K4 that lasted for over 3 hours.  Memo to self:  No more Bacon! >:( :'(  Maybe I'll bump it up to 20k IU and give it another try. :D  Of all things, I've missed Bacon for the last 10+ years.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 17th, 2012 at 5:39pm
Hey Jerry,

Thanks for the update.  You're spot on by saying this regimen keeps CH at bay...  I've done enough stress tests of my 25(OH)D reserves by stopping this regimen cold turkey to come to the same conclusion. 

I tried the first such test last November after 13 months of being pain free and was rewarded with a classic Kip-7 eight days after I stopped taking the regimen. 

I repeated the stress test two more times over the following two months and both times it only took 24 to 36 hours without vitamin D3 for the beast to come a knocking...  My conclusion is I'm still a chronic CH'er even though I'm pain free, and that as long as I maintain a therapeutic level of 25(OH)D, I'll remain pain free.  For me that appears to require 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

I think you're presently at the tipping point as I call it, where you're almost but not quite in the safe green zone with a high enough serum concentration of 25(OH)D to completely prevent your CH. 

Try to snag another lab test for 25(OH)D sometime over the next week to 10 days so you'll know what your threshold is to remain CH PF for future reference...

I've never heard of the "Bacon Test" for CH as a trigger, but then why not?  It even makes sense.  The extra sodium chloride in bacon could easily cause shifts in serum calcium levels and the sodium nitrite used in the bacon curing process could also be a culprit in nitric oxide (NO) production.

I suspect that after a month or so being pain free on this regimen, you'll be able to do the bacon test again with pleasant results.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Plakatboy on Mar 19th, 2012 at 2:50am
Started on the regimen on the 2nd day of this cycle. Now is the 7th day.

Getting low KIPs headache during daytime. Throughout the day I will experience the breakout feeling which subsides after a while.

Nighttime is a different story. 30 to 60 mins after sleeping, I will be awaken by the breakout feeling and if un medicated, developed into a KIP 5 to 6. The HA recurs every hour after sleeping.

Not sure but the regimen seems to help with day attacks but is not doing much to the frequency of night time attacks.

Anyone facing the same situation? Any suggestion?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:27am
Hi,
 
I have been on this regimen for just over 6 months. My doctors tell me that amount of time rules out any possible placebo effect…

I suffer from the extreme sort of CH and was diagnosed as intractable CCH.  Without medication I averaged up to 8 (and more) episodes a day at an average high pain level of kip 8 and an overall average pain level of Kip 6. The CH last 45 to 50 min without abortive treatment and are accompanied with all the classic CH symptoms we know so well.

I have undergone treatment with almost all the schoolbook standards of care preventative medications for CH, and was a guinea pig to some new and "innovative" treatments. 

My candid assessment of all the CH preventative medications follows:  None were really effective.  Some provided limited relief for a while others did not.  The few that were relatively effective with moderate to good effectiveness in preventing my CH all carried unacceptable side effects. 

When it was clear I was essentially intractable to the standard CH preventative medications, my neurologists suggested blockades…   The occipital nerve block with betamethasone provided a week to 10 days relief but nearly destroyed my endocrine system and it triggered a rapid bone mineral density loss.

One of the more "innovative" treatments included the implantation of a bi-lateral ONS (Occipital Nerve Stimulator). 

The ONS implant required months of "tuning" to load the most effective stimulation patterns, but even then I became a slave to the ONS as it required constant attention during the day to provide what I consider a moderately effective method of preventing painful attacks.  During the night while sleeping it was useless. By the time I woke up the pain was beyond control with ONS.  It has since been surgically removed as its overall day and night effectiveness was far less than I had expected.
 
None of the treatments provided a sustainable magic bullet, or gave me a full (even limited) success in preventing my CH…
 
The only treatment I have not tried is the CB alternative.  It's not that I don’t think it could give me some relief, it is just not compatible to my job requirements,

I do need my job… 
 
All treatments had one or more undesirable side effects, that made the risk-reward ratio unfavorable so the choice to continue or discontinue the treatment easy.
 
The anti-inflammatory treatment (for me) is not a magic bullet.

BUT

I am under very close control and monitoring by doctors in the endocrinology department at KSSG (Kantonspital St. Gallen Switzerland). Even with this disciplined approach, I have the flexibility of adjusting doses of the “ingredients” and this has allowed me to achieve a steady (at the moment) 80-85% reduction in the frequency of my CH episodes.  It has also resulted in a significant (over 50%) reduction in the pain level of the remaining episodes… nothing over Kip 5 anymore.

I achieve all of the above without any apparent undesirable side effects. On the contrary, my bone density (monitored as well) is improving and my current overall sense of well-being is very good.
There is still the last bad habit – smoking - a habit I should give up and I might feel even more energetic…  but then, one beast at a time…
 
To all who haven't tried the anti-inflammatory treatment and would like to give it a chance, it can take time (in some cases) to achieve significant results.  For me it took over 4 months and a lot of discipline. 

However, the flexibility of dosing the “ingredients” to achieve the current results, and knowing there is room for better results makes the continuous disciplined work of adjusting my anti-inflammatory treatment to the situation and the lab tests every three months well worth the effort.
 
The anti-inflammatory treatment is giving us (in conjunction with high Flow O2 abortive) a substantial weapon to battle our common malady with substantial results (over 70%) and that is more than we achieve (statistically) than most of the standard of care treatments, without any (seemingly) adverse side effects, or any unwelcome legal issues.
 
The cost of this regimen is negligible in comparison to any of the current standard of care meds. It is affordable to any person, even without health insurance.  My cost is just under 50 cents (US) a day (and I buy the supplements over the internet and they are flown from the USA to Switzerland via Fed Ex or DHL).  It is the cost (more or less) of one cigarette (in Switzerland), and way less than the cost of a beer in Switzerland !!!
 
When it's all said and done, I know I still suffer from cluster headache !!!  However, I'm no longer intractable and that by itself gives me a whole new outlook on life. 

The anti-inflammatory regimen gives me a confident level of control in preventing my CH and the few that do leak through are easily controlled with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation. 

The bottom line is I now enjoy a quality of life that lets me function effectively at work, at home with my family, and while doing things I enjoy like skiing with my sons and flying a sail plane over the Alps.

If you haven't already tried it, I urge as many of you to give this alternative a try, and even if you have tried it for one or two weeks and given up…  try it again…  It can take time to be effective for some of us, particularly the chronic types.  In some cases like mine, it can take several weeks, but the wait is worth it.   

It also takes a disciplined approach with lab tests and patience. There are no apparent risks and it is statistically a very cost effective preventative you can live with for as long as it takes…  or longer!


Michael


(copy - Pete)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:29am
Plakatboy,

Thanks for the feedback and hang in there...  From the data collected so far, the average time for an episodic CH'er to respond to this regimen with a decrease in the frequency and severity of their CH is 8 days, but some have taken much longer. 

Have you seen your PCP for the lab test for 25(OH)D?  Nearly all CH'ers with active CH who gone in for this test have have come back with 25(OH)D concentrations lower than 30 ng/mL and there have been a few who tested as high as 42 ng/mL. 

CH'ers who have gone pain free on this regimen and then had this test have all had their results come back at >60 ng/mL.

Several studies have shown it can take as long as 90 days for some people to elevate their 25(OH)D from 30 to 60 ng/mL at a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Plakatboy on Mar 20th, 2012 at 6:21pm
Hi batch,

Thanks for the reply.

This cycle I'm using the D3 regimen with red bull and cafergot as abortives. I am not sure if i'm taking too much caffeine cos I am going thru 4 to 5 night attack with the last one especially bad at KIP8-9. The pain continued for the next 90mins after the cluster pain subsides , though it is throbbing in nature instead of constant.

I am not sure if I am having rebounds or that you are paying back for lighter intensity during the day.  cos this has never happen before . I have mainly aborted attacks with red bull so far and is well within the limit for cafergot.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 21st, 2012 at 10:55pm
Plakatboy,

The most effective abortive is oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  See your PCP or neurologist for a prescription for oxygen therapy. 

Ask for 15 to 25 liter/minute oxygen flow rate, but be prepared for possible push back.  At 4 to 5 hits a night you're also going to need at least three of the larger M-size medical oxygen cylinders for a one month supply if your insurance will cover it.  The smaller E-size oxygen cylinders are only good for three aborts...  The M-size should be good for 20 to 30 aborts depending on the flow rate.

If you don't have medical insurance, you can always go the Welder's O2 route.  Harbor Freight Tools caries the oxygen and you can also get one of their welder's O2 regulators for $35.   

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These puppies have enough flow rate to blow your shirt tail out.  You'll just need to do a little trial and error to find the best regulated pressure for the fastest abort.   They also have the GCG-540 cylinder attach fitting that will work with the larger medical oxygen cylinders (M/H/K) and all welding O2 cylinders.

Accept a lower flow rate if that is all that's offered as you can always buy a good 25 liter/minute regulator for less than $50.  You'll also need a good mask and the $27.50 O2PTIMASK™ kit available at the CH.com store at the left is the best there is.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Mar 22nd, 2012 at 5:31pm
Hello,

  New-ish here. Started the D3 regimen Feb. 29th. Noticed a reduction in the severity of CHs about 4 days later, and have been reletively PF for the past week and a half (maybe the cycle is ending but I'm not stopping the D3 to find out if it is or isn't). Have yet to get the 25(OH)D test, but hope to soon. Was only formally diagnosed with CH yesterday, but a family history led me here (also having to wait over a month for an appt. with a Neuro). Printed out Batch's post #637 and gave it the doc...he seemed somewhat receptive to it and asked if he could keep it (of course, why do you think I printed it out for YOU).

Just wanted to say thank you to Batch and everyone else at this site. I hope to be able to provide with you more info soon..plan to wait the full month prior to filling out the survey.

Thanks,

-d

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 23rd, 2012 at 11:25am
Hey DVB,

Thanks for the feedback and sharing the news about the anti-inflammatory with your doctor. 

Who knows, if this keeps up, more CH'ers and their doctors will discover how well this regimen really works for 20 cents a day...  We'll know just how many CH'ers when the big pharma's and their lobbying arm come gunning for me...  Wait until the migraineurs discover how well this regimen works for them.

Take care and please keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Mar 23rd, 2012 at 12:03pm
Well Batch, I don't mean to stir up any trouble for ya, but my Father is taking the info to his Neurologist today. Take care and keep the science coming.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Mar 23rd, 2012 at 1:35pm

-dvb- wrote on Mar 23rd, 2012 at 12:03pm:
Well Batch, I don't mean to stir up any trouble for ya, but my Father is taking the info to his Neurologist today. Take care and keep the science coming.




Trust me, Batch can take the heat! ;)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RandyB on Mar 24th, 2012 at 12:33pm
So I thought I would chime in here. I have had CH episodic for about 18 years. As most of us can say when I find something that works for one cycle it stops working the next go around. Any way started my spring time cycle about 6 weeks ago. Starts with a few small hits then slowly progresses into a 3-4 day hit kip 7-10 then it stays that way for x amount of weeks. So right now I am peaking on the cycle getting heavy kip 7-10's every 4 hours. This past Wednesday and Thursday were insane so I went out a purchased a bottle of D3 10,000 IU and took 1 day since Thursday. The test of Thursday night up till today I have had no hits. I drank vodka on Thursday night and took a nap on Friday. No hits. Today had a heavy shadow which I killed with a Starbucks coffee.

I am amazed how well and how quickly I responded to the D3.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Mar 24th, 2012 at 7:03pm
Batch,
So my cycle started this year at exactly the same time it did last year (imagine that), around the beginning of March. Last year I found this thread and started the regiment immediately during a business trip to Portland. Within 3 days of starting I was free of CHs and it lasted for 5 months. The CHs came back at the end for about 3 weeks and then vanished for 6 months.

So here's why I'm posting.....I started the regime again more than a week ago and it really hasn't phased the CHs this time. I'm not sure what to do but to continue taking the regime and hope that it worked like last year. I take 10,000 mg of vitamin D, 1 500mg calcium combo pill, and 3,000 mg of fish oil.

Any suggestions?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Mar 25th, 2012 at 6:41am
I have been PF for 2 years..seems to be my cycle, every 2 years in Feb or March and lasting 6-8 weeks. This past 2 weeks I was getting hit every 45 min at night with 8 or 9's lasting 30 min. I came back to this site to see what was new and read the information on D3. My daughter is a Chronic Lyme sufferer and has low D. She gave me some of her D3 5,000 and I started taking just one 3 days ago.

I am now getting hit every 1 1/2 hrs and the intensity has greatly decreased to either just shadows or 3 or 4's! I did have an 8 this am but it only lasted 10 minutes! I already take 2000u fish oil and calcium citrate. I'm going to hit her Magnesium Citrate powder tomorrow and see what that does plus increase my D3 to 10,000u.

I am still up for a few every 1 1/2 hrs but this is such a huge improvement!! Waiting for the day I am PF again or at least can get some longer sleep!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Mar 25th, 2012 at 5:45pm

ClosetCHer wrote on Mar 24th, 2012 at 7:03pm:
Batch,

Any suggestions?


The calcium combo pill do include magnesium?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Edenmtclusterhead on Mar 27th, 2012 at 10:08am
Hi everyone! I am a supporter to  my boyfriend and I am very interested in this vit D and fish oil supplementation. I am just wondering if you have a supplement you recommend? Do you have a manufacturerer that carries everything you need in one tablet?
Thank you!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 27th, 2012 at 2:26pm

Edenmtclusterhead wrote on Mar 27th, 2012 at 10:08am:
Do you have a manufacturerer that carries everything you need in one tablet?

Not that I've ever heard of.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 29th, 2012 at 10:42am
ClosetCHer, Randy, DVB.

Sorry for the delay in responding...  We've had a house full of grand kids for the last two weeks...

I'll tackle your posts with a last in first out order... 

ClosetCHer...  First question... Why did you stop taking this regimen?  I suspect had you continued taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and the other micronutrients in this regimen after your last episodic cycle ended, you wouldn't have experienced this year's CH cycle.

As to what to do...  See your doctor for a lab test of your serum 25(OH)D concentration.  My guess it will come back < 42 ng/mL if not lower.

I'm not sure why you haven't responded to this regimen as fast as you did last year.  We're still in a learning process with respect to the mechanism of action in how vitamin D3 prevents cluster headache. 

Having said that, there is more than sufficient information available on the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3, (what the body does to vitamin D3), thanks to experts like Dr. Robert Hearney, MD.   We know the metabolism of vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol), to 25(OH)D (25-hydroxycholecalciferol), and on to the final biologically active metabolite, 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol can take place fairly rapidly if serum levels of 25(OH)D are not too low.  There is also sufficient medical evidence to suggest comorbid conditions that affect the thyroid, parathyroid, liver and kidneys can impact vitamin D3 metabolism.

From the empirical data collected so far here at CH.com, it appears we need a serum concentration of 25(OH)D between 60 and 90 ng/mL in order to enjoy pain free or relatively pain free relief from cluster headache. 

That means we need to load our systems with enough vitamin D3 from oral supplements and/or dermal generation by exposure to the UVB in direct sunlight to keep our 25(OH)D in this range.

Accordingly, I again suggest you see your doctor for the 25(OH)D lab test.  I would also continue the present regimen and up the dose of vitamin D3 from 10,000 IU/day to 15,000 IU/day for a week and if you don't experience a favorable response by the end of that week, up the dose of vitamin D3 to 20,000 IU/day for another week.

If there's still no symptomatic relief from your CH after a week of vitamin D3 at 20,000 IU/day, a trip back to your doctor for more lab tests may be in order...  Only this time check for the possible comorbid conditions listed above.

Randy,  Outstanding news!  Thank you for sharing your experience with this regimen.  It's always a hoot to hear another CH'er has found relief using vitamin D3.  Stick with it along with the calcium and the other cofactor micronutrients.  You'll be pleasantly surprised at the other results.

DVB,  Please keep us posted on the results of your father's visit with his neurologists.   The more I learn about the health benefits of this regimen, the more I think the entire family should be taking it.

As Joe indicated, I'm not particularly concerned about any lobbyists for the big pharma that might come calling because this regimen is starting to cut into their sales margin... 

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The house is nearly a thousand feet off the main road located near the center of a 20 acre parcel of densely wooded land. Our gravel driveway is over 900' long and looks like a logging road...  It's also very narrow and crooked as a dog's hind leg as it winds through the woods... 

The nearest neighbor, a 100 yds to the North through some tall timber and heavy underbrush, is a retired county mounty.  The next closest neighbor is 150 yds to the South through even heavier woods just off our driveway..  He's an old sourdough, retired guide and outfitter from Alaska.  He's also got four Alaskan Malamute-Siberian Husky mix sled dogs that are bigger than most wolves...  meaner too if they don't know you... 

I figure between the three of us we've got enough whoopass to handle any city slickers from "K Street" in DC.  And if we run low on conventional whoopass, I can always send Joyce up the driveway with the chainsaw... 

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She's been on the same anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 for well over a year and doesn't know her own strength...  Crossing this charming little green-eyed septuagenarian is bad news...  Even more so if she cops a post menopausal bad attitude that's been known to cause grown men to run for cover...  Even the malamutes give her a wide berth if she's upset...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Mar 29th, 2012 at 9:19pm
Note to self...Do not mess with Batch.

It's been 2 years since my Dad's last cluster, he had a regularly scheduled visit with the Neuro on Fri. He presented him with some of the info about the D3 regimen. Doc said he'd like to research it further and would get back to my Dad with his thoughts in a few weeks. I'll let you know when he here's back.

Thanks again for your (and everyone's) contributions here.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Mar 29th, 2012 at 11:23pm
Hi Pete,

I discussed your regimen with my new dentist yesterday after getting hit from a shot of Novacaine.  I had a light shadow going in, but thought I was OK.  WRONG!  Anyway, she is a migraineur and knows others with CH.  I was recommending she look into the therapy for her migraines. 

Keep up the great work.  I can't claim success yet.  I think some days it is working, but they are not gone yet.  Missed a couple of doses and had a rough day the next day, so I really think it is doing some good.  Might bump it up to 20,000IU soon.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by PittsburghJoe on Mar 30th, 2012 at 7:28am
Back again after two years PF... Batch, you are THE MAN! I started getting shadows a couple weeks ago, and went into my usual denial, then had to snap out of it once the hits started. Before I even thought to call the doc, I thought to come here. Reading about your regimen just made some sense to me, and I got me some D3 and Fish Oil (I need to get my cholesterol down, so there's a nice side benefit). I started taking 2,000 mg of the Omega-3 fish oil and 10,000 IU D3 daily. I'm sure my body is crying for the D3 since, even though I live in beautiful, sunny Texas these days, I work overnight and sleep all day, so I don't see the sun that often.

Anyway, after starting the regimen with just these two, I have only been getting hit sporadically. It seems to me only suring the day when I'm trying to sleep that I'm getting hit, and the first is the worst, usuall after about an hour of falling asleep. I'm ranging between 0-4 hits per day, but they really aren't lasting very long, and they only hit maybe a K7 max. A few gulps of an energy drink (I highly recommend the new Mio energy drink mix. A few drops in a glass of water, and you're good to go. Tasty, and much less expensive than red bull or monster), plus I force myself to hyperventilate, and the pain is generally gone within 10 minutes. I'm sure if/when I can get an O2 script from my new doctor, I'll be able to blast the beast away even faster.

I haven't really been hit much at all the last couple days, and this is usually the point in my cycle where it really starts ramping up. I did add a calcium/magnesium/zinc combination supplement to the regimen, plus I take 6mg of melatonin now before bed. I'm at the point now where I'm thinking I may skip the doctor and the O2 and see if this breaks my cycle before it's able to really take hold. I really don't want to be on meds again. Prednisone makes me feel angry, bloated and just off, and verapamil gives me such insane constipation that I never want to touch the stuff again.

I'd try the CB route, but I don't know that I'm in the mental state to handle it right now. Having played with some of that stuff recreationally in the past (never shrooms, I was just an occasional LSD user), I know it can cause me some anxiety. I've been treated for an anxiety/panic disorder for the last couple of years, now taking 10mg of valium a day to keep my attacks of that away. So I know I'm not in the proper mindframe for the busting route.

Anyway, a really meandering and long-winded way of saying thanks to Batch and the other D3 champions out there. I'm hoping this keeps working. If it doesn't, I'll be right over to the doc asking for some O2. I just like the idea that right now I'm just giving my body what it needs anyway, and if it keeps the beast at bay, so much the better.

Great to be here and see old familiar names and faces, just bummed that I'm back for the bad reason.

Take care all!

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Mar 30th, 2012 at 10:00am
That's GREAT news. Way too many stories like yours floating around to be considering this as anything but a serious treatment. Hoping it keeps beasty in the box.

ANOTHER Joe! ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 30th, 2012 at 12:03pm
Hey Jerry,

Thanks for the update.  Missing the daily dose of vitamin D3 during the first month or two is a sure way to invite a hit...  After that, when you've built up enough 25(OH)D reserves, missing a dose isn't as critical. 

Bumping the daily dose of vitamin D3 up to 20,000 IU/day should speed up the process.  I don't have your actual start date but knowing your 25(OH)D concentration was 73 ng/mL on 5 March, if you test again by mid April, your 25(OH)D should be somewhere North of 90 ng/mL.

I wouldn't worry about going over the upper value for the normal reference range at 100 ng/mL.  From the studies and literature it appears this range was developed by testing thousands of people for 25(OH)D then use a gaussian distribution to determine the lower and upper range.  The problem in doing this is most of the people in this distribution are deficient in vitamin D3...  which means the reference range is shifted lower.

The real limit is the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at a 25(OH)D concentration of 200 ng/mL.  That would take a vitamin D3 dose > 40,000 IU/day for at least three months.  As long as you get tested regularly until you reach a 25(OH)D equilibrium, and hopefully get your CH under control, you should be in good shape.

Finding the 25(OH)D concentration and the corresponding vitamin D3 dose required to keep you PF or at least that provides a good quality of life is the goal now.  Once you reach that level and stabilize it, the bacon test should yield pleasant results.

As far as migraineurs go...  the data is still very anecdotal.  I know many migraineurs may be trying the anti-inflammatory regimen, but I've only had contact with five of them.  All five have gone in for the 25(OH)D lab test and all five were deficient <30 ng/mL. 

These five are also reporting a marked improvement in their migraine patterns.  Two have been completely PF.  One for over a year and the other for over two months. I've asked for another round of lab tests for 25(OH)D, but I'm not holding my breath.

Hey PittsburghJoe,  Thanks for the kind words... and the SITREP... I like your attitude.  Giving our bodies the nutrients they need to make us healthy is a lot different (and better) than taking a bunch of pharmaceuticals for symptomatic relief.

It sounds like you're on your way to full control over your CH.  The important thing to understand when that happens is you really need to stay on this regimen to build and maintain 25(OH)D levels.  That way when the biological schedule calls for another cycle of episodic CH attacks, nothing will happen and you'll stay PF.

There are a lot of other healthy benefits from taking this regimen as you've already pointed out.  I'm on it for life and so is Joyce, my wife.  Staying healthy for 20 cents a day beats the heck out of the alternatives...

Please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Mar 31st, 2012 at 9:16am
Batch,
Thanks for the help and the detailed explination. I haven't had the time to log back in until today, but I've gone over a week now without a CH (knock on wood). I've had some heavy shadows but that's all. I didn't increase my D3 but I will anyways just to be safe. I'll let you know how it goes.

I stopped taking the regiment because at the end of my last cycke the CHs came through for about two weeks and then stopped. I figured I would just start the regime back up when the cycle started. I didn't think the regime would prevent the cycle from starting. That was my thought behind stoppping.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Apr 1st, 2012 at 1:51am

Guiseppi wrote on Mar 30th, 2012 at 10:00am:
Way too many stories like yours floating around to be considering this as anything but a serious treatment.


Pete,

I will see P. Sandor on Friday.... 
(on flight related issue)
see what he has to say..... 
Michael

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 1st, 2012 at 12:32pm
ClosetCHer,

Thanks for a most excellent SITREP...  "a week now without a CH"  Woo Hoo!  It's a great feeling isn't it...  Perhaps it's time to come out of the closet...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ClosetCHer on Apr 1st, 2012 at 7:04pm
Batch,
SITREP?? I don't know you're background (haven't been on here long enough), but that is a military term and also used in law enforcement. I would've passed along the 5Ws but I didn't realize their are fellow acroheads (those who like acronyms) here!

P.S. I've got many years until I come out of the closet!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Seed on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 3:02pm
Hey Everyone,

I've been on these boards on and off for awhile now but rarely post.  I ran across this thread yesterday and wanted to throw my hat in the ring.  I've been chronic for 11 years now and have tried all kinds of different things.  I get my best results from verapamil and cafergot but even they aren't as effective as they used to be.

What really caught my attention was the 25(OH)D levels.  Just by chance, I had some bloodwork done by a holistic doctor I was seeing.  My wife convinced me to try something new to try and get another opinion about the clusters.  As I was reading all the information, I remembered something the doc told me as she was going over the results of my bloodwork.  I am deficient in vitamin D.  She just mentioned it in passing but I jumped up, grabbed my test results and sure enough....Vitamin D, 250OH - 30. 

Went out yesterday and now taking 10,000 IU of vitamin D, 3000mg of Omega 3 fish oil plus the Calcium / Zinc / Magnesium suplements as of this morning.  Crossing my fingers and I really hope this works!

Thank you guys for compiling all this information.  You may have just saved my butt!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by B.Baer on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 6:10pm
Batch,
Baer here, I'm all in, just went back into cycle with the recent time change.

What are the calcium and the other cofactor micronutrients of which you speak? I am going to log my usage, starting tomorrow.

I must admit, I've toyed with D-3 but not seriously till this past week, I'm taking 12,000 iu of D-3, 1000 mg fish oil, and 1000 mg calcium, 400mg magnesium and 15mg Zinc. On this for about a week.

Seemed manageable and quite light of a cycle, THEN, oddly enough, had bacon for the first time in a long time and the hits are more frequent and much worse. I've read of this in this thread and it could have caused the increase.

I await your response, again, I'm all in. My neuro is Dr. Rozen, and I've already sent him an e-mail asking about having blood levels done.

Thanks for all you do, and I'll keep you posted. I await your response.

All the best,

Baer

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 4th, 2012 at 5:55pm
ClosetCHer, Seed, B.Bear,

Thanks for the comments.

ClosetCHer, We used the 5 Ws all the time in order to maintain situational awareness...

I spent nearly 25 wonderful years in the Navy and most of that in the cockpit of fighters... F-9 Cougars, F-8 Crusaders and F-4 Phantoms... so an occasional acronym is unavoidable... 

Two of my favorite fighter pilot speak calls are "BUGOUT" and "YOYO"...   When you get in a fur ball, a dog fight with a bunch of BANDITS (bad guy jets) and you're running low on fuel...  it's time to depart the area and head back to the ship or an airborne tanker for HAPPY HOUR (inflight refueling)... 

Under these conditions you call BUGOUT! over the radio... That lets your wingman know it's time to depart - Let's get out of here while we're still in one piece and no holes... 

If your wingman calls back he wants to stay and play (continue fighting the bad guys)...  you tell him YOYO!  If you don't come with me now... You're-On-Your-Own...

Seed,

Welcome to the club, I know you're going to find this regimen to your liking...  You've made a wise decision starting this regimen and the odds are high you'll have a favorable response if you stick with it.   

Your wife also made a wise decision to have you see a holistic doctor.  Holistic/Naturopathic physicians believe that the human body has an innate healing ability...  if you give it what it needs...  As such they look at the whole body including the status of all it's functions and any deficiencies as they relate to a given medical condition.

Unfortunately, too many neurologists are narrowly focused on the brain and pain so looking for other medical conditions that may relate to or aggravate CH is simply not on their checklist of things to do or med's to try.

I'm beginning to think most CH'ers would be better served if they see a neurologist for the diagnosis then see a holistic/naturopathic physician or an endocrinologist for treatment of their CH... 

I know that may sound like heresy in some CH circles... but the though is intriguing.

From the data I've collected so far, CCH'ers tend to take a bit longer to respond to this regimen than ECH'ers so stick with it.  It only took two days for me to go completely pain free on this regimen while other CCH'ers have taken 20 - 45 days for favorable response so don't get impatient...

Please keep us posted.

B.Bear,

Glad to hear you're "all in" on the use of this regimen to prevent your CH...  As I said earlier, I think you're going to like the results, just stick with it.

The vitamin D3 cofactors are magnesium, vitamin K (K1 & K2), zinc and boron. 

"Which vitamin K should I use?

While research indicates both vitamin K1 and K2 have beneficial actions in the body, it is vitamin K2 that is indicated as a necessary co-factor for vitamin D. However, the jury is still out as to the various actions by MK-4 and MK-7 in the body, and which one, if either, is more essential to health."

There's a complete explanation of vitamin D3 cofactors and their natural sources at the following link:

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Basically, these cofactors aid in the absorption and metabolism of vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol).  It's always a good idea to take the calcium supplements.  We need a total intake of calcium of 1,000 to 1,500 mg/day from all sources...  1,500 for the folks 50 and over like me.

Dr. Todd Rozen, M.D. is one of the top neurologists in the US specializing in treating patients with CH.  He's also a migraineur so knows what headache pain can do to us. 

I've been working with Todd since 2007 primarily on the use of oxygen flow rates that support hyperventilation as the safest and most effective CH abortive available to us.  I've also been sending him data on the effectiveness of the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 since December 2011. 

So far it appears he is still a bit skeptical on the benefits of this regimen so it will be interesting to hear how he responds to your request for the 25(OH)D lab test.

Please keep us posted on your progress with this regimen and let me know how Dr. Rozen responds.

Take care All and thanks again for the comments.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by B.Baer on Apr 4th, 2012 at 6:40pm
Batch,

Thanks again, I'm off to find K-1 and K-2. I did ramp up the D-3 yesterday. Oddly, and I find this fascinating, I had one very mild hit around 10:00 PM  before I went to bed.

Slept through the night and did not awaken till 6:30 am, first that's happened in over a week.

More interesting however, was I had one very mild hit today, easily knocked down with O2..... BUT... I called my wife to explain a phenomenon that had occurred.

I stopped at an ATM to get some cash, and looked down to check the checking balance. I COULD READ IT. I've not been able to do that in years, without my reading glasses.

Years ago, I took medically prescribed Sansert, and took the doses too close together. I called her that day to tell her my hearing had improved, it hadn't, Sanserts very close to LSD in properties, and can get you a little trippy if taken too close together. That wore off.... :o

I in no way recommend Sansert, it can help, but can't be taken for long periods of time and can have some nasty short and long term side effects. I just ref this, as I've been around the block with many meds over the years and the experience was relevent to this post. Should you chose to Google this, you'll find it's only available in Canada and then only with a script. Consult your Neurologist and Primary Physician before any medications are attempted. I truly DON'T recommend this drug.

Back to Deb, I told her I was NOT having a Sansert moment, but asked her to look up something on line. She found some indication that D-3 increase can improve vision in "Older" patients. I am 56 and I guess I qualify. I just thought I'd throw it out there, because it most def. increased my visual clarity.

Anyone else have these results??? I went up to 20,000 IU's yesterday while I was doing 10,000 for the past week. I'm now going to back it down to 10 or possibly 12,000 and see what happens.

I will def. let you know what Dr. Rozen's response is, as you know he's a great guy, and dedicated Neurologist, he's also gonna' question me down, I'm sure. I'm interested as well, as to his response.

Batch, I'm very fair skinned, used to be a red head when I had hair color. I still have hair, just well... it's not red anymore. I saw a post you had responded to and felt, perhaps I needed a bit of a push to get my levels up. By all indications it just may have helped.

I hope this continues and will keep you updated.

This is exactly what makes this forum so helpful and useful. Education and sharing of information.

Good on you my friend.

All the best,

Baer

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Apr 4th, 2012 at 9:09pm
I've been on this regimen for a month now, the first two weeks at 10,000 i.u.'s of vitamin D3, the last two weeks having upped the dosage to 20,000 i.u.'s per day (along with the minerals and fish oil). Due to new responsibilities at work, I have had to take imitrex to control the hits I've been getting (5-6 per day). Some reach K7, and most respond reasonably well to O2.

The question I have for anyone who might venture a guess is this: I suspect that the hits I've been getting are rebound in nature from the trex. I will not have a chance to stop the trex until this weekend as I'll be on vacation next week. Any ideas as to how long these rebounds might continue before I'm detoxed from it enough to see if the D3 regimen is actually benefiting me?

I'm preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jacey on Apr 5th, 2012 at 12:25pm
Hi guys.  Wondering if you can help.  I've been on the vit d and fish oil regime for a couple of weeks now.  Still waiting for serum results but I'm a pasty faced Brit so not expecting it to be high.  After first week the hits reduced in both number and strength which was great, unfortunately they are now back! Hitting around a 5/6 each time and getting up to 5 a day. I'm still on 240mg of verapamil a day and just to add insult to it have got several huge patches of excema!  I've been taking 15,000 iu of the D3 and wonder if I should up it to 20,000 even without the test results? Partly wondering if I'm just having a reaction to trying to "clean " things up a bit. I'm trying to cut out processed food and use less chemicals in everyday stuff.  Can't do any harm!  I'm also drinking loads of water too.  Any suggestions?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ellick on Apr 5th, 2012 at 1:13pm
Hello just adding to this rather than replying to one post. Apologies if this has already been mentioned as I have not been back through all the posts.
It struck me that some of what is contained in these posts relates to what many herbalists have been saying since the 1920s. They felt that most illness stemmed from high levels of acidity and a low PH balance is healthy. An alkaline diet is the way to achieve this. D3 reduces acidity and increases alkaline.
There also seems to be a link between mushrooms and vitamin D. I was taking D3 this year but still went into cycle although to be fair it was not a high dose and I wasn't taking it for CH prevention as I did not know anything about it until I read these post.
I will certainly look into this and try it to see if I come into remission. Saying this I am in the 5% and last year no CH at all. ET.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ellick on Apr 5th, 2012 at 1:26pm
Sorry need to correct a sentence. Should read high levels of acidity and a high PH balance.
ET

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zahava on Apr 5th, 2012 at 4:36pm

Hi-
I'm new to this site & somewhat overwhelmed with the amount of information. My recent headaches started 11/11. At first diagnosed as migraine (since I've had them before) :) & now a CH. I'm 65, female, weight, about 112. I've searched for "the regiment" & can't find exactly the ingredients/dosage and if it's different for women etc. My "headache specialist" has tried everythig & is now prescribing topomax, lithium & O2 when needed. I want to start the D3 regiment etc. & not sure exactly what to buy, when to take, best brands, etc. Any help getting started will be GREATLY appreciated.
Thx,
Z



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zahava on Apr 5th, 2012 at 7:58pm
Being new to this VERY informative site, I have a zillion questions. The first being: Do I, a 65 year old female weighing 112 lbs, take the 10,000 IU of D3 & fish oil all at one time or spread it out etc ? My headache statrted in Nov. '11 & still going strong. I'm taking topamax, lithium, & O2. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thx,
Z

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Apr 5th, 2012 at 9:17pm
Hi Zahava
You should get your blood tested for Vit. D. And generally it is a good idea to involve your doctor (though some of the are kind of skeptical to  remedies that doesn't originate from a factory, carries a brand and a price tag.)

First, make sure you take vitamin d with food, preferably some fatty food.  I my self take vit d, calcium, magnesium and zinc for breakfast. But especially the magnesium can be split in one morning and one evening dose, as it is quicly "burnt" in the body.

The standard daily regimen is
2-3000 mg Omega 3 Fish Oil
10.000 I.U. D3
500 mg Magnesium (avoid magnesium oxide)
500 mg Calcium
10 mg Zinc

Many add K1 og K2, mainly to help the body optimise the use usage of calcium.

Most of us have individual variants of this, but it is a good starting point.  If you eat much milk/diary products, the amount of Calcium can be reduced. Dark green vegetables - for instance broccoli - is high on vit K.  Bananas are a good magnesium source. Etc.

All the ingredients in the regimen is found in various foods, except for vitamin D which is hard to get from food - that is - in the amounts we deal.

I myself begun late june. It's been 9 months now, and the results have been great, just great.

Good luck!  I really hope it proves as effective for you as for numerous others!


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zahava on Apr 6th, 2012 at 5:40pm
Thank you so much. I've been in the hospital 3 times for IV injections etc. & very anxious. My husband found this site & deserves a "merit badge" for care giving. I'm NOT a good patient, but he never gives up (thank God) ! I know he''l go to Cosco etc. & bring home the D3 +++.
Thanks again for your help.
Z :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ellick on Apr 7th, 2012 at 6:31am
Batch,
I am keen to try this. However, right now might be difficult so if you can advise please do.
I did not have a Cycle in 2011. This year I went into cycle again and how. As an extra present during the peak of cycle I had a pulmonary embolism.
I am now on anti coagulant therapy which is expected to cease in 6 months. I know D3 doesn't effect warfarin but Omega 3 in whatever form does.
My question is will D3 on it's own work?
ET

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 7th, 2012 at 4:18pm
Hey Ellick,

Good question...  The short answer is yes...  Vitamin D3 can work all by itself to help prevent CH...  but you should also supplement with calcium and the cofactors, magnesium, vitamin K, zinc and boron if possible. 

The best course of action is to discuss this regimen with the doctor who prescribed the rat poison (warfarin...   Well...  that's what my mom called it....)  Between the two of you you should be able to come up with a safe and satisfactory regimen to help prevent your CH.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by haste25 on Apr 10th, 2012 at 10:57pm
Hello,

First, I would like to say thank you. I was in the middle of the second episode of my life when I stumbled out of the dark wood of CH pain and into the vitamin D regimen. My first episode occurred nearly two years ago, and was a classic case of CH--beginning in my late 20's, bilateral pain amplified and triggered by alcohol, KIP 8's that would wake me from sleep, attacks occurring at the same time of day etc.

This second episode tapered on, rose to a climax in a week, and then I started taking the vitamin regimen three days ago. I've had, in those three days, perhaps 2 KIP 2-3's. They last significantly shorter, and are significantly less severe. I get these at night, but two Advil PM's seem to knock them out quickly.

I take 10,000 iu D3, 2400 mg fish oil, and two combo pills of  calcium (666 mg total), magnesium (266 mg total), and zinc (10 mg) per day, split between breakfast and dinner. I have not had the 25 (OH) D test. I also do not take the Boron or Vitamin K.

I'm a bit surprised, as I live in a sunny place, and I am outside a great deal. I never thought a lack of vitamin D would be the culprit.

My questions are: How strongly do you recommend getting the 25 (OH) D test? And where would I go? Also, since I am episodic, should I test going off of this regimen in a few weeks to see if I've "busted" the cycle? Finally, should I take the Boron and VItamin K?

Thank you, Mr. Batch. You seem like a kind and wise soul. It's a joy to be pain free, and you have helped with that. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jillsusan on Apr 11th, 2012 at 9:35pm
I started taking 6000 iu of Vitamin D3 back in January after being on a prednisone taper and cycle was knocked out.  My doctor saw me in March and said I was taking too much Vitamin D.  I had a blood test that confirmed that my levels were OK but I since have read that long exposure to high amounts of Vitamin D is extremely dangerous.  I read that 2000 iu a day is the max that should be taken. 

I went back to taking 2000 a few weeks ago and am now starting a new cycle of clusters.  Not sure what to do.  :-/

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Apr 11th, 2012 at 10:00pm
Your doctor merely does not want to be sued.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Apr 12th, 2012 at 12:25am
Jillsusan, I agree with what Brew said wholehearedly.  Next time ask your Dr how much training and education he has in nutrition.  I can guarantee you it is even less than he has in Headache unless he has done some extracurricular study in it.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 12th, 2012 at 1:43pm
Jillsusan,

If you were to go out in the mid-day sun clad in a bathing suit without any sun block, your skin would generate 15,000 IU/vitamin D3 in 20 to 30 minutes...

You might want to check the source of the information saying high doses of vitamin D3 are dangerous...  To my knowledge after reading some of the gold standard studies on vitamin D3 dosing conducted by endocrinologists...  "Even a daily dose of 40,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is unlikely to result in vitamin D3 intoxication."

What was your 25(OH)D serum concentration?  Over 150 CH'ers have posted their results of using this regimen as a CH preventative over the last year...  Most were taking at least 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and some were dosing as high as 20,000 IU/day... 

So far, there have been no reports of vitamin D3 intoxication with elevated serum and urine calcium levels.

Regarding what to do...  First, be aware that most neurologists and many primary care physicians are not up to speed on effective dosing levels of vitamin D3 or at therapeutic serum concentrations of 25(OH)D, the serum metabolite of vitamin D3. 

Moreover, the government bureaucrats on the Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) at the Institute of Medicine (IOM) who set the at Dietary Reference Intakes (DRI) values and Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) use a convoluted logic to set the UL for vitamin D3 at 4,000 IU/day.  It's interesting to note that the four members of the FNB who set this value are either tenured professors in biochemistry and nutrition, or long time government employees.  None of them are medical doctors and none of them have ever treated patients for a vitamin D3 deficiency.

The 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 dose is consistent with established treatments with vitamin D3 carried out by physician members of the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine, endocrinologists and neurologists treating patients with Relapsing/Remitting Multiple Sclerosis (RRMS). 

It should be noted that the DRI for vitamin D3 was developed based on nutritional needs...  The normal reference range for 25(OH)D was determined by taking a gaussian distribution (bell shaped curve) on the results of a large survey that measured 25(OH)D levels of a largely vitamin D3 deficient population, not for any therapeutic value used in treating conditions like cluster headache.

You may want to read about vitamin D3 at the vitamin D3 Council web site at:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

This is a wonderfully informative web site on vitamin D3.

One of the Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 research, Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D., developed the following chart.  I've modified it with data collected from posts by CH'ers here at CH.com.  It illustrates the relationship between serum 25(OH)D levels and cluster headaches at various doses.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

It's interesting to note that Life Guards in Southern California and Florida who were test for 25(OH)D all averaged 90 ng/mL, (225 nmol/L)...  and none of them were taking oral vitamin D3 supplements...

Armed with this information, you should be able to make an informed decision on an effective vitamin D3 dose.

There are additional studies on this topic so please let me know if you need more information and I'll post links to them again.

Take care and please keep us posted on how you plan to proceed.

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jillsusan on Apr 12th, 2012 at 10:40pm
Thanks Batch,
It was my Endo who said 6000 was too much. I am hypothyroid and had my annual visit with him when notified him that I added VD3 to my list of daily meds.  He sent me for blood work that day.  I didn't get the number...only that it was within normal range.

I discussed oxygen with my GP today and just finished my first SUCCESSFUL O2 abort...it took 11 minutes for full abort... 20 minute treatment (6L) started treatment at the first signs of attack.  I'm going to keep at this.

I have not spoken to my GP about the D3 yet because I saw your post later but I want to increase my vitamin D3 again, based on the fact that my blood tests were normal when I was on 6000 IU.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on Apr 13th, 2012 at 1:13am
OK . . . I'll be the first.  Congratulations on aborting with 02. . . . but you're not gonna believe how much faster you can abort with the proper flow rate and mask.  If you were able to abort at 6 lpm after 20 min, you won't believe how fast you can abort with 15-25 lpm and a non-rebreather mask, preferably the O2ptimask with the big green 3-litre bag (links on the site).

  Be Safe,   PFDANs

    Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sandie99 on Apr 13th, 2012 at 10:25am
It's been a year since I begun my trial and added omega3s to my daily vitamins.

During these 12 months I've been hit only 4 times, 3 during stressful occasions and once when I forgot to take my omega3 tablet on the usual time. But NO CYCLE. This means that I've been cycle-free for the longest time since ch came into my life!

The result is clear: omega3s are here to stay. :)

All the best & PF days to everyone,
Sanna

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 13th, 2012 at 12:14pm
Jillsusan,

Your endocrinologist made a perfectly understandable call regarding vitamin D3 given your thyroid disorder.  The parathyroid and thyroid play a major role in calcium homeostasis and vitamin D3 metabolism. 

Thyroid and Parathyroid disorders are also among the more common comorbid conditions associated with cluster headache. I'm not a doctor, but I suspect there's room to maneuver regarding the vitamin D3 dose... 

For starters, the term "normal" with respect to 25(OH)D serum concentrations is meaningless if you suffer from cluster headache.  The "normal" reference range for 25(OH)D is 30-100 ng/mL. However, we've had CH'ers with active bouts of CH test as high as 42 ng/mL 

Moreover, from the chart I posted in response to your initial post, you can see that CH'ers who had a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 vitamin D3 and then had the lab test had a serum concentration of 25(OH)D in a range of 60-110 ng/mL.

I suspect your endocrinologist will be willing to work with you to prevent your cluster headache as you increase or titrate your vitamin D3 dose to 10,000 IU/day.  Lab test for calcium, PTH, and 25(OH)D will be essential.

Regarding oxygen therapy...  Richard is spot on.  An oxygen flow rate of 25 liters/minute results in much faster aborts as this flow rate can support hyperventilation. 

Many of us who have mastered oxygen therapy as an effective CH abortive, use flow rates that support hyperventilation.  We spend most of the time at a flow rate of 40 liters/minute to get the fastest aborts possible...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Apr 13th, 2012 at 2:20pm
6 weeks in. Taking the D3, Cal+, Omega3, and Magnesium all at once in the evening. Getting the "familiar pain" every day in the late afternoon or early evening, though much, much less severe (upto about a 4) - Thank Batch. I'm thinking of splitting between morning and evening. I see from reading here that some of you take them all at once and some spaced out throughout the day. Has anyone seen a difference in switching when or how these are taken?

-dvb

(sorry if this has been answered already)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by haste25 on Apr 14th, 2012 at 8:23am
Just a few quick questions (and I too apologize if these have been answered before).

Should I reduce my D3 intake if I go out in the sun all day?

How will I know when my cycle ends? (I ask this because I've still been avoiding my triggers--a cold beer, for instance, which I really would like after 3+ weeks of CH-induced sobriety). (I also found that I've been pretty much pain free since day three of the regimen, except for a massage-induced KIP 7-8).

Why am I losing so much weight on this regimen without altering my diet? (You'd think that someone would exploit this as a weight-loss regimen...)

Thanks again.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Apr 14th, 2012 at 7:39pm
I WISH it did something for my weight!  I don't think I've lost an ounce.

jc

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Apr 17th, 2012 at 4:43pm
Hi Batch
Radar here, nearly a year since I dropped by, had no reoccurrence on the regimen with 5000iu a day.  All of sudden I have my precursors of an episode, extreme tiredness, tender skull and some shadows.  Have upped the D3 to 10000iu split morning and evening, should I up the mg and ca as well?  Never done the K or Boron,? 

Keeeping fingers crossed that I am not going to be sucking the inside out of thatO2 bottle again.

Pain free lives on D3 to everyone :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dexter on Apr 18th, 2012 at 11:45am
These boards are a godsend!

I'm going to add to the list of people who have found success with D3.

I'm a 25yo male, smoker, ch sufferer for 7 years now. I've tried everything I can (without insurance) including the following: Relpax (too many side effects and not realistic for the 5 headaches a day I get), Capsaicin nasal pepper spray (it hurts like hell, but is often a good addition to abortive methods), Chilled Saline sprays (feels quite nice, but I haven't seen too much success with it, just figure it can't hurt), regulating sleep/diet, and a plethora of natural remedies, none of which that have proven to work for me. Red Bull always seemed to help though, so I've stuck with that, as even though it doesn't work [i]that[i] well, it gives me the extra energy to fight these things off.

Since I have no insurance, I'm at the mercy of my Pediatrician brother for rx's and he scoffed at O2 saying I was too young and that I would become O2 Dependent. He also said that CH was the same as a migraine, so I guess that shows how much we should be trusting our doctors with this particular ailment. 

My cycle started this year with a vengeance earlier this month and I was devastated (as I am every year when the hopelessness sets in) and I figured I'd jump back on the boards to see if anyone had found a 'cure' for me. I came across this article and was pleased, as I had recently started a D3 regimen of 5,000 IU a day for other reasons.

I upped my daily dose to the recommended 10,000 IU. The first day I saw no change in my cycle which is -

Two Kip 6's at night (one at 3am and the other that wakes me up at 8am every morning)

Two Kip 7's throughout the day, one around 1pm and one at 4pm.

The second day, my daytime headaches dropped off and I only had the ones at night.

The Third day, I had none at all, but woke up with a Kip 2 or 3 on the 4th day, which was easily aborted with Capsaicin Spray and Red Bull

And that's been my sort of 'new' cycle - every other day, I'll get one at night or in the morning.

I have found however that if I take my usual 10,000 IU dose in the morning and then before bed, take another 5,000 IU dose, I am completely PF. I just need to remember to take it. I have no qualms about taking megadoses of D3 as I've taken daily doses up to 25,000 IU without any problems. Full Disclosure: I live in the suburbs of Chicago where we get almost no sunlight, and I work from my bedroom and generally live like a vampire.


Now, here's some information that isn't on the boards about D3, that I think is pertinent, or at least helpful.

First and foremost, D3 is Fat Soluble, so when you take your dose, make sure to eat something with a little bit of fat in it, so the D3 has something to bind with. Without fats, the D3 will mostly just float through you and do no good. I notice a big difference when I accidentally take it on an empty stomach.

I've been using D3 as a daily boost for my immune system, testosterone boost, and have seen incredible results. If I start to get sick at all, I take a 20 - 25,000 IU dose throughout the day and will completely avoid whatever cold or flu I was coming down with. I've seen a few people in the throws of a bad flu (coughing uncontrollably, faucet face, fever, the whole thing), take a megadose of D3 and be at 100% by the next morning. It's really wonderful stuff, and I take a large dose any time I feel anything at all coming on. I was really happy to find that it worked with my CH, and will continue taking it.

I guess I didn't mention before, but I am not currently taking any other supplements with the D3. I wanted to test to see what it could do on it's own, but will probably start supplementing with Omega 3 and a multi vitamin here soon.

Thanks CH! You guys have saved me!





Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 18th, 2012 at 11:47am
Hey Radar,

Welcome back and thanks for the update.  Information like this is important to all of us.  Like I've discussed many times...  the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 is not a cure for cluster headache...  Those of us who have found this regimen effective in giving us an existence free of cluster headache pain still suffer from this disorder.

There are times when the cluster headache calendar clock triggering mechanism kicks in with extra strength, like the traditional start date for episodic cycles.  When this happens, and our 25(OH)D reserves are not sufficiently high, we become more susceptible to getting hit even while taking a previously effective maintenance dose of vitamin D3.

If you run down for another lab test for 25(OH)D you'll have a good idea where the tipping point is for your target level of 25(OH)D that you need to keep higher than to avoid any return of the beast.

The simple solution you've already started is to add another 5,000 IU/day to the existing daily dose vitamin D3 and continue it for a month or so...  then get another lab test for 25(OH)D.  That should be your target therapeutic level.

Splitting the vitamin D3 dose may help.  The overall process of metabolizing vitamin D3, cholecalciferol, into 25(OH)D then on to the active form of vitamin D3, 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol, is like a bucket brigade as it passes from the stomach through the liver and kidneys...

1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol has a half life of only a few hours where 25(OH)D has a half life of several weeks, and the vitamin D3 has a half-life in the serum of only a few days. 

Keeping 25(OH)D level high also results in it being stored in body fat and other organs that serve as  reservoirs.  It's these reservoirs that keep us going if vitamin D3 intake drops as they release 25(OH)D back into the serum.

Assuming there's enough of the cofactors, increasing the intake of vitamin D3 results in an increase of all its metabolites...  and hopefully, a stronger therapeutic effect on CH.

Haste25, although there are no gold standard studies indicating a clear causal relationship between increased vitamin D3 and weight loss, there's plenty of circumstantial evidence. 

There are enough surveys around to say that nearly all overweight people are vitamin D3 deficient, i.e., 25(OH)D < 30 ng/mL and people with ideal body mas tend to have much higher 25(OH)D levels.

I don't think there's any question that vitamin D3 makes our bodies function better and that also includes a higher basic metabolism that can lead to increased physical activity with an attendant weight loss. 

In short, if you feel more energetic because of the vitamin D3, there's every reason to expect your weight set point will drop.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Apr 18th, 2012 at 3:20pm

Dexter wrote on Apr 18th, 2012 at 11:45am:
Since I have no insurance, I'm at the mercy of my Pediatrician brother for rx's and he scoffed at O2 saying I was too young and that I would become O2 Dependent. He also said that CH was the same as a migraine, so I guess that shows how much we should be trusting our doctors with this particular ailment. 


I think your brother should be aware that we're all oxygen dependent! As for that being a reason for not letting someone have access to it for CH is simply not credible. But that seems to go with the lumping of CH and migraine together. I get both and there is simply no comparison between the two.

For oxygen, have you explored using welding oxygen? It's just as pure as medical oxygen as otherwise welds would fail and lots of people here use it too.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 20th, 2012 at 1:39pm
Dexter,

Your brother's response to your request for oxygen therapy is out to lunch on one count and understandable on the other... 

Mike already hit the nail square on the head with his comments...  pointing out we're all dependent on oxygen...  I suspect your brother is confusing supplemental oxygen with oxygen therapy as a cluster headache abortive... 

Had your brother checked the standards of care for guidelines on the treatment of cluster headache and other trigeminal-autonomic cephalalgias at the following link: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE, he would have seen that oxygen therapy at a flow rate of 15 liters/minute is the first abortive of choice in the acute treatment of CH.

Pediatricians also get a special indoctrination on the use of supplemental oxygen therapy during residency that tends to make them averse to oxygen therapy... 

There was a dramatic increase in the number of premature babies following the end of WWII.  Many of these premature infants were so fragile, they were placed in incubators with high oxygen content... 

That saved the lives of thousands of these premature babies, but there was also a high incidence of these babies going blind and the effect of 100% oxygen on the premature retina was deemed the culprit.  This condition is called retinopathy of prematurity, or ROP. 

This problem was amerilorated slightly when physicians discovered that a lower concentration of supplemental oxygen was just as effective in saving the lives of these premature infants. This lower oxygen concentration also appeared to lower the incidence of ROP. 

More recent studies have shown  ROP is likely already present at birth and that it can actually be treated and controlled.  Moreover, recent research suggested that controlled amounts of supplemental oxygen might actually keep ROP from progressing from moderate to severe.

Ophthalmologists on the other hand, are usually up to speed on the use of oxygen therapy as a CH abortive.  My Navy ophthalmologist thought nothing of writing my last Rx for oxygen therapy at a flow rate of 25 liters/minute.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Apr 21st, 2012 at 12:01pm
Hey Batch

You are truly god like in many people's eyes.  To be able to take pain away from so many must be fantastic.  It appears that the increase in D3 has done it.  Have not gone for the 25OD test as the signs of pain have been alleviated.  In the last year I have spread the word as much as I can, I had a lengthy discussion with the consultant in charge of the local neurology dept, he was aware of the regimen but not really aware of its efficacy, so I gave him the link to this blog.

Kind regards

Radar

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 5:10pm
Hi
In the Danish CH forum*, I just came across a "John Doe-theory" on CH that makes more sense to me than anything else I've read along the lines.

Simply put: CH stems from a a chronic or episodic local inflammation somewhere in the head - on the same side where the pain occurs.
The inflammation may for instance originate in the ear, or in a sebaceous gland and spread - causing blood vessels to dilate and perhaps also directly affect the trigeminal nerve. Stress, lack of sleep, compromised  immune system  may trigger the inflammation.

According to the theory: The reason O2 works is that it spontanously reduce the amount of Nitrogen Oxide (NO). Again according to the theory up to 1000 times of normal amounts of NO may be present in the area during inflammation.  The reason Prednisolon usually works is the same: Anti-inflammatory effect.

"Hauge" - the nick behind the idea - claims CH more often occurs during night beacuse the inflammation "works harder" when resting, than when physically active. He also says he found a sebaceous gland that was slightly raised, but appeared to be inward-oriented and therefore hard to find.  When removed, the CH disappeared.

Now - I'm sure there are numerous rational objections to this idea, but I like its simplicity. It is a 100% scientific theory as it is falsible. It is also 100% compatible with the D3 regimen :-)  and may explain many of the strange features/characteristics of CH. However - it does not immediately explain why clusterbusting or Imitrex have effect.

Anyway - our aim should not be only to linger the CH pain, but to understand its origins. The mere fact that the The Anti-Inflammatory Regimen (TAIR) works for so many, may be a key finding.  I strongly believe scientific investigation of the effects of TAIR would shed light on the pathophysiology of CH.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Plakatboy on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 9:33pm
This is a great article. It definitely makes a lot of sense to me. I always thought that during A bout, something is badly inflamed and the body tries to heal it only to have it flare up again, thus the recurring headache.

I noticed that my last few bout were triggered by strong fumes ie new car or exposure to industrial cleaner. I thought once the part of the head is inflame due to the triggers, it takes weeks before the inflammation is resolved. I also notice that during a bout, the side of my head with the pain will have acne sores on the scalp. Most times the acne occurs near or at the part of head where it's most painful.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 10:58am
Interesting theory there.

Update: saw the Neuro last week. He also suggested splitting the D3+  (now taking half in the morning and half evening). Have been PF since (keeping fingers crossed)...although I did get clobbered last Sunday, so could be end of cycle [smiley=confused2.gif]

Keep up the good work here, all of you.

-Thanks, -dvb-

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 10:49pm
Some hopeful changes.  I upped my D3 to 20,000 four days ago, about the same time as I went off an anti-inflammatory I was taking for a ruptured cyst.  That is important because it tends to bind Magnesium and Calcium.  Anyway, they are not gone, but I've not had anything above a K3 in four days.  Here is hoping!  I've not been able to get another blood draw, so I'm flying blind.  My wife is in fear I'll go toxic, but I keep trying to tell her I know what I'm doing, thanks to Pete. 

Keep up the good work!  I'll keep you posted as things progress.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 10:59pm
Jerry - I've heard stories of MS patients that take 100,000 i.u.'s per day for three months at a time. I don't think you're even CLOSE to toxic levels.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Apr 24th, 2012 at 12:15pm
Yeah, Bill, I know that and you know that, but the doc has Linda worried about it.  The time they spend on nutrition is proportional to what they spend on HA's in Med School.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cooper on Apr 24th, 2012 at 2:57pm
Hello everyone, my name is Felipe, I'm a 22 year old student from Chile, and this is my third cycle (2008 and 2010 being the other two). I know I should introduce myself first in the other part of the forum but I thought that, as this concerns batchs formula I should merge both posts in this one.

My first cycle lasted only 2 weeks, getting hit  once a day in the morning. On my second cycle I inmediatly started taking pred taper and that took care of it, for a week... When I begun to lower the doses the beast came back with vengance, two hits a day and very nasty ones... That lasted a month ( I know this is nothing compared with what some of you guys must endure, but that one month broke me real hard emotionally...)

Last week I started a new cycle (1-2 hits per day ranging from 5 to 8 on kip scale) and came here looking for an alternative to the pred taper, as I am afraid of "the vengance".
I found this post and read the first 12 pages of it. I started following Batch's formula and test my luck:
1) first day I used 6000 UI vitD and 3000mg of O3, as I get my hits usually at 9am I waited for the next day....
2)that day i got a mild hit at 11am ( weird) and a second one, more intense and lasting an hour at 10:30pm. I started using 8000 UI that day.
3) third day only got hit once in the morning, moderated, almost an hour long, so I boosted up to 10000 UI
4) fourth day got hit twice: 10:30am and 1:30pm (really weird!) both moderated in intensity, and lasting about 40 min each. I started to lose faith in this formula for me...but mantained the dose 10000 UI and added calcium citrate (350mg) and Mg (75mg) with Zinc (20mg).
5) today, got hit twice 9:45 am and 12:00am, both very mild and responded to oxigen very well, lasting 15-20min each.

Now, this was the last day I wanted to try the formula before starting with the prednisone taper, but. I still don't know what to do. I'm afraid that I havent been taking the vitD in a correct manner ( here in Chile we only have 400UI pills, so I must take 25 pills a day to get 10000UI....thats right...25!) after each attack I feel completely tired and the only thing I can do is sleep for a while, so I have been taking the vitD pills only in the afternoon when I wake up. Maybe I should start taking them before the first hit? About 7:00am?
My neuro recommended me to start with the pred ASAP, but he hasn't read or really know anything about the vitD treatment.
I'm afraid that if I start taking prednisone today I will prolong my cycle and make it worst at the end. I know I will be PF if I start it, but maybe...and just maybe, the cycle is ending with Batch's formula and in a few day I will be PF without the prednisone.

I really need your advice in this one... Should I start with the pred and keep taking the vitD at the same time? Should I wait for it to kick in? Have I been taking the vitD in a correct way? Do you guys know if the pred taper can prolong the cycles or make them worst?

I have complete respect for you guys, this is a horrible condition and it takes a lot, and I mean A LOT to overcome the fear and anxiety it envolves. Your opinion means very much to me.
I am proud to share with you from now on in this beautiful community.

PF days to you all,

Felipe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Apr 24th, 2012 at 4:17pm
Hello Felipe,

   Here's one vote for all of the above. Start the Pred taper now and continue the D3+ (can take a while for the D3 to reach a sufficient level to do it's thing). I'd also ask the neuro for a preventative (like verapamil or lithium) to start immediately (the pred taper should buy time for these to build up in your system).

   The D3 is working for me, but it took a while to get PF. And I also saw the variations in my CH during the first week on the D3 (stopped getting my daily 3AM wake-up call, but was getting hit at other times of day I normally wouldn't and varying in severity).

   Stick with it (25 is alot...at least they're small), but don't give up on the other treatments. I think the idea here is to be PF as soon as possible and for as long as possible.

   Keep reading the boards and asking questions. There's alot of information here...

-dvb-

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Apr 24th, 2012 at 4:40pm
Felipe
Same story in Norway: 400 IU D3 is max.  Make sure you take them with food, preferably some fatty food.  You should up Mg and Ca to 500mg.
Don't lose faith, be a scientist :-)


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cooper on Apr 24th, 2012 at 5:35pm
Thanks for answering so promptly! I will keep taking my 25 little pills, up my Ca to 600, and see how it goes tomorrow morning. If I get hit once more I'll start the pred taper and continue anyways with the D3+ treatment.
I'll post as soon as I notice any changes.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 24th, 2012 at 6:54pm
Felipe,

I've been collecting data on response times for the anti-inflammatory regimen from here at CH.com and also from an online survey of CH'ers using this regimen. 

Response times to a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of CH or going pain free range from 12 hours to two weeks with a handful taking up to 30 days.  The average is a little less than a week and it appears that the 25(OH)D level is a factor.

Vitamin D3 won't affect your prednisone taper, but there are some studies that suggest prednisone will slow the metabolism of vitamin D3 through 25(OH)D3 and into 1,25(OH)2D3, the active metabolite...

Having said that, the decrease in serum 25(OH)D was small, and most of these studies centered around glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis with the vitamin D3 doses involved ranging from 400 to 600 IU/day.

Accordingly, as long as you're taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... the prednisone taper should not pose too much of a problem.

Regarding your present 400 I.U. vitamin D3 capsules...  You can order the 5000 IU liquid softgel capsules over the Internet from a number of sourced. 

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The above link should work.

As it appears you are starting to respond to this regimen, you can also up the dose of vitamin D3 from 10,000 IU/day to 15,000 or 20,000 IU/day.  This will help speed up the process of building 25(OH)D3 reserves and that should also increase serum levels of the active metabolite 1,25,(OH)2D3.

Splitting the dose so you take half in the morning and half before bed time might also help.

Have you seen your doctor for a lab test for 25(OH)D?

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Plakatboy on Apr 24th, 2012 at 11:33pm
Felipe,

Don't forget the magnesium. It an important co factor

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Seed on Apr 25th, 2012 at 11:03am
Hey Everyone,

It's been a few weeks since I started my D3/Omega3/Calcium and unfortunately, I haven't seen the results I had hoped for just yet.  Definitely not giving up but was hoping to get some addtional advice.  I'm wondering if I need to increase the D3 dosage.  I'm 6'10" and about 240lbs so just wondering if I am above the height / weight for the 10,000IU dosage. 

I've been chronic for 11 years now and one thing I've learned is that my CH have a mind of their own.  I generally get them at the same time each day but they can change any time and shift me to a new cycle or a new level of severity.  I think I've seen a drop in the amount of pain for each headache but not in frequency.

Just to refresh what I'm taking:
10,000IU D3
1800mg Omeg-3
666 mg Calcium
266mg Magnesium
10mg zinc

Really appreciate everyone's efforts here...just need a little more help...I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Apr 25th, 2012 at 11:07am
I'd go to 20,000 i.u. of D3 per day.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 25th, 2012 at 2:59pm
Seed,

Bill is spot on...  Now that you've been taking vitamin D3 for more than a week without any reaction to it, you can up the dose to 20,000 IU/day.  Depending on your 25(OH)D level, increasing your vitamin D3 to 20,000 IU/day can shave a week to 10 days off the time needed to reach a serum concentration of 60 ng/mL.  The dashed line in the graphic below provides an estimate of the 25(OH)D response to 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

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Have you gone in for the lab test for 25(OH)D?  Knowing your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite will help tell you when to expect a favorable response.  Most of us respond to this regimen between 60 and 110 ng/mL.

It's also a good idea to have this test done again a month after you go pain free...  You'll likely need to reduce the vitamin D3 dose back down to 10,000 IU/day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Cooper on Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:24pm
Hey Batch and others,
Yesterday I got two new hits, one at 8:30am (very mild) and the other at 9:30 (mild to moderate), both responded very well to oxigen. Given the fact that I have to get back to class I started the pred taper yestererday. Today is my first morning pain free!
A couple of things I'd like to add to this: this is my second week of the cycle and thats usually when the hits start to get really nasty. I believe that the very low intensity of the hits ive been having is due to the D3+ formula. Another fact to take into consideration is the dosage of prednisone that Im taking : only 60mg a day, I dont think that would have been effective by itself ( last time I took 80mg to shake the beast off my back), so again... Maybe it's the vitD working!

Hey guys, do some of you feel your heart beat stronger (annoingly so) and find trouble sleeping while on Prednisone?

Thanks a lot for your help, I'll keep on with the vitD formula and keep you posted on how it goes when I lower the pred doses, i should be ordering pretty soon the 5000 UI pills!

PF days and nights to you all!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:50pm

Quote:
Hey guys, do some of you feel your heart beat stronger (annoingly so) and find trouble sleeping while on Prednisone?

Yes.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Fattographer on Apr 28th, 2012 at 3:54am
Hey all,

I've just finished reading all 30 pages of this and have decided I want to try it too!  I've ordered the suggested cocktail of vitamins and minerals and will start taking them as soon as they arrive.  Will update results when I have something to report.

Thanks to all for your information and especially to Batch for making your posts easy to read!!   :)

David.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:31am
Hey David,

Thanks for the headzup that you'll be starting the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Try to get the lab test for 25(OH)D, the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3. 

If you can't get your PCP to order the 25(OH)D lab test, I'm told there are labs in the UK that do this test at a reasonable price without need of an Rx.

Take care, do keep us posted and cheers,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on May 2nd, 2012 at 5:34pm
Hey Batch
Getting hit for 2 nights now, upped to 18000 iu hoping it will show some effect soon.   The tests that you can buy online in the uk come from Birmingham and Sandwell hospital.. If you google this vita vit d blood spot test you get the required place.  Ł25 for a test.
Keep smiling :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 2nd, 2012 at 6:36pm
Hey Radar,

Thanks for the info on where to obtain the vitamin D3 blood spot home test in the UK. 

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This is the same technology used at ZRT labs here in the US.  I have two of their test kits on hand and the cost here is comparable.  Have you ordered this test?

Regarding upping your vitamin D3 dose.  Check out the attached paper by Heaney et al.  As long as you're tolerating the present vitamin D3 dose, it appears a loading dose of 50,000 IU/day one day a week and 20,000/IU/day the rest of the week will elevate your 25(OH)D safely and rapidly.

When you get your CH under control and go pain free, I would continue another week on this dosing schedule then stop the loading dose and lower the daily dose to 15,000 IU/day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Am_J_Clin_Nutr-2008-Heaney-1738-42.pdf (259 KB | 2 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JandSmomma on May 2nd, 2012 at 10:52pm
First, I want to parrot some and say "Thanks Batch and all other guru's on this board." Without you all CH would not be as easy to handle alone.

Second, I wanted to express my thanks in teaching me biology. I'm pretty sure after reading all 30 pages of this post I can now (finally) pass high school (if not college) biology! LOL  ;D

Third, I started using a 1/2 dose of the VD3/Omega-3/Ca/Mg/Zinc 'cocktail' last Saturday. Saw a little bit of a reduction in intensity the first few days. Today was my first full day of nothing larger than a shadow. Even slept through most of the night last night.  :D I'm not wanting to use a full dose of the vit/min until I get my 25(OH)D test. I'm seeing my doctor on Friday morning and I'm hoping she'll be open to getting an education in CH. I'm armed and ready for the fight with all the information I've gained since finding this website. Don't worry, I won't over whelm her on the first visit. But I do plan on getting what I want, which is the 25(OH)D test, Chem Panel, CBC and a prescription for O2. I’ll get you the SITREP as soon as I have the results.  ;)

Thanks again all and here's for PFDAN soon!
Amy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 2nd, 2012 at 11:43pm
Hey Amy,

You go girl !!!  I love the attitude and I'm confident you'll do just fine on all counts...  In fact, even at a half dose of vitamin D3, I'll wager a coke & candy bar you'll be mostly PF by the time you see your doc on Friday...

Some physicians are hesitant to take continuing medical education (CME) from their patients...  The big reason for that is they don't get any credit for it...  However, the wise physician should be attentive to the dramatic symptomatic improvement in a patient's condition...

If your doc goes into fibrillation when you tell him you intend to dose on vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day until your 25(OH)D serum concentration stabilizes at equilibrium around 90 to 100 ng/mL, and then stay at a dose of vitamin D3 that keeps your concentration of 25(OH)D at that level...  show him the attached study...

I'll assume from your handle...  JandS Momma, that you've got kids...  Putting them on 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 would be a good idea...

Take care...  This is exciting...

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=607_full.pdf (160 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JandSmomma on May 2nd, 2012 at 11:59pm
You know... I was going to ask about that. Both of my children have high cholesterol (from their father's side :-/ ). And my son was officially diagnosed with ADHD (although I don't agree >:( ) and was put on medication (Methylphenidate @ 54mg). After reading so much on this site (and this post specifically) I'm wondering if maybe a modified version of the suppliments might work wonders for both of them. I'll have to do a little more research on acceptable doses for a 10 & 11 year old. I'm also worried about them developing CH in the future, although they don't show any signs now. *fingers cross* That they get to live PF and never know this HELL.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 3rd, 2012 at 2:45am
Hey Amy,

Good on you for taking the initiative with these vitamins and micronutrients for your kids.

The following slight modifications to the basic anti-inflammatory regimen should be just fine for your kids...

5,000 IU/day vitamin D3*
1,000-1,300 mg/day calcium**
2,000 mg/day Omega 3 Fish Oil***

* Many nutritionists and pediatricians in the know prescribe 4,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for infants...

** The calcium citrate tablets with magnesium, zinc and boron are ideal for kids... Four (4) of the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate tablets a day will be spot on...  Meets Calcium, magnesium, zinc and boron RDAs per the charts below

*** Does wonders to lower high cholesterol and high triglycerides.  You can also add Nature Made Cholest Off, a mix of natural plant sterols and stanols to help bring down total cholesterol and triglycerides even further.

The following two tables of recommended RDAs for calcium and magnesium supplements come from the Food and Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine...

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As far as your kids inheriting CH...  Although there's a link... the odds remain very low... Maintaining a healthy serum concentration of 25(OH)D should do the trick to prevent CH even if the odds were much higher...

I'm not a doctor but I think methylphenidate is being over prescribed...  In addition two of my kids are teachers.  Ryan teaches music and voice in middle school, Jr, High and High School in Boise, Idaho.  Gretchen is an Art professor at a small private collage in Southern VA...  Both did two year stints in special education. 

They take a busman's holiday for a month each summer as senior councilors at Camp Goodtimes West here in the State of Washington on Vashon Island.  They've done this for over 20 years since Gretchen beat out ALL...  so both spend a good bit of time with kids in need...  They also share my concern that CNS stimulants like methylphenidate are being over prescribed...

Accordingly, after your son has been on the vitamin D3 for a month, order the 25(OH)D lab test.  If his serum concentration of 25(OH)D is > 40 ng/mL, do your own assessment of his ADHD...   If you see what you're looking for, ask his doctor about taking him off the methylphenidate...

Balancing work-home life can be difficult at best these days, but if you can find the time to take him out for a 10 minute jog three to four times a week, you can work off any leftover hyperactivity...  The vitamin D3 will give you more energy and a little physical activity will also do wonders in helping you shed a few pounds and inches...  ::)

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Aisling on May 3rd, 2012 at 7:07am
Hi All,
I'm very interested in this combination, would love for my partner davy to be on as natural remedies as possible. At the minute he has gone back up to 60mg of steroids, is starting on 480mg of verapamil, has had his head botoxed and is awaiting an oxygen trial. He is up and down at the minute(literally) with attacks, he is chronic and I mean chronic. I will let you know if there is any improvement.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by superhawk2300 on May 4th, 2012 at 12:46pm
Back in cycle. Just completed a pred taper. While on the pred I was pretty much PF. 1st day off and I'm back in the saddle though.

I'm going to the store to grab all this stuff now and get in on the experiment.

Batch, it looks like this routine doesn't break a cycle, but just stops hits from happening while in cycle?

Has anyone tried some triggers while successfully doing this to see if the hits occur? It would be interesting to know if this suspends the cycle not just the hits, or if the cycle is continuing but the hits are just absent from the cycle.

And thank you very much, Mr. Batch sir! This is most excellent work!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on May 4th, 2012 at 1:53pm
superhawk2300
For me, at least, this regimen almost immediately broke the cycle. Both the immediate I was in, and also the close-to-chronic that had lasted a year. The third night was pain free, and so long to you Mr. Cluster, my nemesis and tormentor for 21 years!

But others have different stories, and about 3 of 10 reports no effect at all. Let's hope you're as lucky as me!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JandSmomma on May 4th, 2012 at 2:49pm
I have to share with you all how incredible I feel right now. I've been mis-diagnosed with migraines for the last 2 years (even after my self diagnoses a year ago, that doctors didn't believe) and thought I'd just give up and deal with these things on my own when they happen. Besides, my episodes only lasted 2 weeks every 6 months. Piece of cake! Then the beast decided to change the rules, I'm in week 6 now  >:( So last week I got online to do more research and found.... HOME! This place is great. After reading the first couple of pages of this post I decided to purchase the ingredients of this regime and start with a ˝ dose. I also made an appointment with a new doctor and continued to read everything my brain would absorb on CH.

I just got back from my new doctor's office where I gave her the exact same 'symptoms' that I gave the previous 2 doctors. She asked a couple of questions about migraine symptoms and I thought I was gonna have to break out the literature I brought. Lucky for me, she said that she would like to refer me to a neuro and that she didn't believe these were migraines. I asked her what she thought they were and she started to tell me about this very rare condition called cluster headaches! She was hesitant to diagnose this only because I am female and it's rare for women to have it. I was so excited that I found a doctor who had, at least, heard of them!!  :D She also wanted me to have some blood work done and told me that she was ordering a CBC. Then she asked if there was anything else and I told her to please include the 25(OH)D along with that. She smiled and said "You've done some homework."

I'll keep you posted on the results, but for now... I'm going up to full dose on the Batch Regimen! The hits lessened with the ˝ dose… let’s see if I can knock ‘em out with a full dose  :-*

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 4th, 2012 at 4:11pm
"I wish they all could be California girls..."

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Woo Hoo...  Way to go Amy !!!

Now that you've been taking vitamin D3 and the rest of the supplements in the anti-inflammatory regimen without any adverse reaction...  Try a loading dose of 50,000 IU/day one day a week and take the basic regimen the rest of the week until you go PF...  You can split the vitamin D3 dose with 25,000 IU in the morning and 25,000 IU at night before bed. 

Once you go PF you can skip the loading dose...  I suspect you'll be PF before you get the results of your 25(OH)D lab test back from your doc.  Make sure you get the actual serum concentration of 25(OH)D from her.  As Bill pointed out... some CH'ers with active CH have tested as high as 55 ng/mL.

Don, You and I go back a long way in trying to control the beast...  You're spot on that the anti-inflammatory regimen isn't a cure for cluster headaches... But it does control them effectively... 

With the exception of the intentional stress test I did on my 25(OH)D reserves by stopping this regimen completely for eight days until I got hit... I've been pain free since I started it in October of 2010.

That stress test told me I'm still a chronic CH'er...

If you start the regimen today and don't have an adverse reaction to any of the regimen supplements by Sunday, try a loading dose of 50,000 IU vitamin D3 on Sunday then take the basic regimen for the rest of the week.

If you're not PF by the following Sunday, take another loading dose then take the basic regimen for the rest of the week.  This should elevate your 25(OH)D to a therapeutic level and stop your CH... 

Try to get your doc to order you the lab test for 25(OH)D.  Knowing the serum concentration of 25(OH)D required to keep you pain free is something you'll want to know.  After that I think you'll find that staying on the basic regimen all the time is well worth the 20 cents a day expense...  Joyce and I are on this regimen for life...

As far as triggers go after you've gone PF on this regimen...  they should be ineffective...  Several CH'ers have reported doing the beer or wine test after going PF on this regimen...  and nothing happened.

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If you have any problems, you know how to get in touch with me.

Take care and please keep us posted...

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on May 4th, 2012 at 4:35pm
superhawk2300,

   Been on regimen since March. PF (well I guess mostly PF), still can't drink a beer...I keep trying though...

-dvb-

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by superhawk2300 on May 4th, 2012 at 4:49pm
50,000! The guy at the health food store about shit a brick when I told him I was going to take 10,000 and then 20,000 if that didn't work. lol!

I am super stoked about this! I got today's dose in me already and the big load ready to go on Sunday. I'll report back soon.

I am looking forward to trying the "beer trigger test"!
:D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 5th, 2012 at 8:21am
Hey Don,

The vitamin D3 doses we're talking about here for CH are relatively small...  Some relapsing-remitting multiple sclerosis (RRMS) sufferers take 100,000 IU/day vitamin D3 with a half-million IU loading dose... 

They also test their serum concentrations of 25(OH)D, calcium, magnesium and parathyroid hormone frequently to know when to cut back on the vitamin D3 dose before they reach vitamin D3 intoxication indicated by hypercalcaemia, or hypercalciuria...

Regarding the safety of the anti-inflammatory regimen at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 with a weekly loading dose of 50,000 IU (Total of 120,000 IU/week vitamin D3) as a CH preventative... 

"During a 2010 study done at the Maastricht University Medical Center, Maastricht, The Netherlands, Fifteen RRMS patients were supplemented with 20 000 IU/d vitamin D3 (140,000 IU/week) for 12 weeks. Vitamin D and calcium metabolism were carefully monitored, and T cell characteristics were studied by flowcytometry. All patients finished the protocol without side-effects, hypercalcaemia, or hypercalciuria. The median vitamin D status increased from 50 nmol/L (20 ng/mL) at week 0 to 380 nmol/L (152 ng/mL) at week 12 (P<0.001).

Conclusion/Significance  Twelve week supplementation of high dose vitamin D3 in RRMS patients was well tolerated and did not induce decompensation of calcium metabolism. The skewing towards an anti-inflammatory cytokine profile supports the evidence on vitamin D3 as an immune-modulator, and may be used as outcome measure for upcoming randomized placebo-controlled trials."

Hope this helps...  I also hope you pass the beer test once you've gone PF...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on May 5th, 2012 at 8:47am
Hi Batch
Have completed the test and posted, should get results next Thursday.  Got hit  4 times last night but relatively minor, thank you for the loading info, will do that Sunday and see what happens.  Many thanks once again.
Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Darkfire on May 7th, 2012 at 1:45am
First I wanted to say my D level tested at 15. The Dr. put me on 50,000 units 3x a week for 3 months. It is D2 NOT D3 and eventually the side effects made me stop. I was on it for two months. My PDoc wanted me to take 3-4 grams of fish oil in addition to this. So for those worried about these doses I had two Drs. working on this even before we knew I had CH or was dxed with Migraines. (See my new here post for more if you like)

I am in cycle. I am miserable. I upped my D3 to 10,000 from 5,000 about a week or so ago intuitively and my energy increased and depression decreased. My cycle was not changed by D3 alone. I googled and ended up here. I read this thread (part of it) PM'd with Batch and went to Walmart. I am starting with 1 pill of fish oil as I am so sick to my stomach from coffee and water loading today. I am NOT taking a multi with k, boron, etc yet. It seems to effect my xanax and panic in a bad way.

I have no O2. I have limited state assisted insurance. So seeing my Neuro is not gonna happen right now. My abortives are a combo of reglan/toradol/zanaflex/tramadol. My prophylaxis med is Neurontin.

So this is my stash of supplements for now:

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The D3 is 5,000. The calcium has a little in it too and 633 mgs of calcium. The Turmeric is for pain and my skin disorder. I am not even sure I remember why I am taking E other than my skin disorder.


I am not in pain right now. I am shadowed a little with a numb left side of face and slight droop to my left eye. I have a trashed cervical spine so weird numbness and things like my jaw spasming or snapping shut of it's own volition are a daily reality for me. Surgery isn't an option till after my SSDI court date in July.

Here's to hoping I get some sleep and am not back up in two hours. I wanted to thank Batch again. I was really hopeless earlier the pain was creeping up to 9 and my nine is different than KIP. I reach the 'why me' phase much faster than the KIP scale and a 10 is me being carried from my house by EMT's to the ER screaming so loud my neighbors thought it was a cat dying and thrashing against the hospital bed so hard my legs and arms sported bruises for two weeks. Yah 10 for me is worse than surgery. At least Dilaudid worked for surgical pain.

--DF

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by superhawk2300 on May 7th, 2012 at 10:45am
OK Batch.

Day 1: 10,000 D3 with the other stuff as prescribed.

Day 2: upped 20,000 D3

Day 3: Upped to 50,000

Had to use abortives all 3 days so no difference yet with this stuff as far as pain goes.

There is a difference though. I think it is the fish oil; it gives me *terrible* gas; in quantity and quality. Anyone experience this and have any ideas what to do about it? I did try the last day taking the stuff with a meal, and that seemed to help some what.

Does time of day matter when dosing this stuff? Could they be taken right before bed instead of in the morning?

OK Mr. Batch, what next? Do I contuinue the 50,000 D3 loading dose for a while now while keeping the rest of the suppliments the same?

I have been a fan of D3 in the past; I actually had some on me already and would take it periodically when I felt sick so I wonder if I am/was low and if this will help me. Its been awhile so I am holding out with high (but diminishing slightly) hopes :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Darkfire on May 7th, 2012 at 11:10am
I get the burpless kind of fish oil. Since I was taking it with just coffee and real cream. No gas as of yet. When I took liquid which is too expensive for me right now I didn't have an issue.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on May 7th, 2012 at 11:47am
It took me 6 weeks of 20,000 i.u.'s per day to get my serum level to 55 ng/mL.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 7th, 2012 at 1:06pm
Don,

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Patience grasshopper...
 

Without the lab test for 25(OH)D, it's difficult to say how long it's going to take for a favorable response. 

As Bill indicated it can take up to six weeks at 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to elevate serum 25(OH)D concentration up to and near the lower end of the response range for CH at 60-110 ng/mL.  There are a lot of factors involved and the starting level of 25(OH)D is one of them...

The upper response curve dashed line in the chart below is just an estimate, but it should be close depending on your starting concentration of serum 25(OH)D.

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At 20,000 IU/day and a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week, I'm guessing 10 days to two weeks ± 5 days for a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH... 

Stick with the above dosing schedule for now.  20,000 IU/day should work just fine.  If there's still no response by next Sunday, take another loading dose.

Try to get the lab test for 25(OH)D so we can anchor the curve... 

Regarding when to take the regimen...  It really didn't matter for me...  I tried it mornings, evenings and split between them...  Your choice...  Taking the calcium citrate tablets with a glass of lemonade might help as this tends to elevate arterial pH a little.

Regarding the GI disturbance...  skip the Omega 3 Fish Oil for a few days and see what happens...  If that stops the jet propulsion...  try taking one Omega 3 softgel every other day. 

We have natural flora and fauna (bacteria) living in our GI tract that actually aid in digestion.  Too much of one type and not enough of the other could be the reason for the GI tract disturbance...  Giving the GI tract a little time to adapt may be all that's needed. 

If the Omega 3 softgels are still causing problems after a week to 10 days, it's dealer's choice whether to continue taking it or skipping this part of the regimen...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by superhawk2300 on May 7th, 2012 at 5:13pm
Thanks a million Batch! I will continue the D3 at 20,000 per day with another loading dose at 50,000 on Sunday if nothing happens.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Darkfire on May 8th, 2012 at 6:00am
woke up thank you alarm clock hit with another right side hit. WTF. Hey brain you are a left sider remember...Well it's gone now, no fade just poof gone. Right eye still not  perfect but nose is clear after crying for twenty minutes. So I upped the fish oil to two pills. Hubby bought me a bag of lemons for my ph level but they are hard as bricks, not even close to ripe. Since my first step this cycle is guzzling water I need to get some lemon in there. Then make coffee as soon as I can see, get my meds, then take my supps. This has been my last two or three days. I am not sleeping hardly at all at night. But being disabled and not working means I am lucky enough to be able to sleep when I can, when the pain goes away and I fall into bed exhausted. About ten am.  I know my PH is way off without the strips. My eating was horrible I was binging like mad thank you crazy psych meds. Soon as I upped my D3 I was in control. Hmmm something to this I think.


I have noticed little change except yesterday my alarm right side hit slithered over to the left side. Today no fade or slide just gone. So that is a plus.

So today

supps

10,000 units D3 - I may add another pill later if I keep getting hit

2 630 MG of calcium (so far the calcium isn't making the xanax not work. A big plus)

2 1200MG of fish oil (I have taken upwards of 5-6 G a day before without getting sick to my stomach. I think it's the D3 making me queasy.)

The thought of eating during or after a hit is impossible for me. I am using heavy cream in the coffee hoping it offers enough fat for the D3 to absorb. I can add coconut oil to it if I have to and Black Strap Molasses. Still not brave enough to go back on my multi yet. It destroyed the panic killing ability of my xanax last time.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tammygue on May 8th, 2012 at 3:51pm
Hello all,
I was going to give this a shot but just had a quick question.  My doctor just put me on 50,000 units of D2,  2 weeks ago I take 1 pill on Each Friday only for 4 weeks.

Is D2 and D3 the same?  I also bought today Fish OIl, Magnesium and Zinc, I was already taking a multi vitamin and Calcium with D.  I have not seen a difference on the persription D alone does this mean there is no hope for me..


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 8th, 2012 at 4:43pm
Tammy,

That's a great question...  Vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol) and vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) are two very different supplements.  The anti-inflammatory regimen is based on vitamin D3, the only free vitamin as it's easily made in our skin when exposed to the UV-B in direct sunlight.

Vitamin D2 will not help prevent your cluster headaches.  Take a look at the following link at the Vitamin D Council web site then call your doctor and tell him you want to switch to vitamin D3. 

If he has any questions, send him the following link:  START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

While you're at it, ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D, the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3.  The normal reference range for 25(OH)D is 30-100 ng/mL, but we've had CH'ers with active CH test as high as 55 ng/mL.

CH'ers who have gone pain free of their CH while taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and then gone in for this lab test have all come back with 25(OH)D concentrations of 60 to 110 ng/mL.

This is a very safe and very healthy regimen.  The doses of vitamin D3 suggested in this thread result in 25(OH)D concentrations well below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication of 200 ng/mL.

If you want to read more about vitamin D3 intoxication and related symptoms, read the following link...

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There are studies out now that say you would need a daily dose of vitamin D3 greater than 40,000 IU/day for several weeks to three months before reaching serum concentrations of 25(OH)D that would send your calcium metabolism into a warp.

Putting this in perspective, "As one of the safest substances known to man, vitamin D3 toxicity is very rare. In fact, people are at far greater risk of vitamin D3 deficiency than they are of vitamin D3 toxicity."

Regarding no hope for you...  Lose the thought...  The odds are in your favor that you'll have a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 in less than two weeks... 

Even then, if you reach two weeks without a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH, bump the vitamin D3 dose up to 20,000 IU/day...  It's taken a few chronic CH'ers up to six weeks at 20,000 IU/day to go pain free...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by superhawk2300 on May 8th, 2012 at 6:31pm
Went to the doc today and ended up with a script for another pred taper - a smaller one but 3 weeks worth. I will continue with the D3 regimine and hopefully when the pred taper runs out I'll have built my D3 levels to the point I'll be PF!

This weekend while dosing I did feel a little "drunk" for a few minutes - I am betting that is one of the side effects of lots of D3?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on May 8th, 2012 at 9:56pm
Hey Gang,
Just thought I would check in.  Back in the middle of February I achieved pf status after 9 weeks on the regimen.  It's been almost 3 months now, since I went pf, and I'm happy to report that I haven't had the beast come back. 
I do notice that if I overdose on my trigger foods/alcohol for a while I will start to get some very mild shadowing.  Just enough to remind you that the beast is still hanging around.

I encourage those of you just starting the vitamin D regimen to stick with it.  It may take a while, and it does get frustrating, but it does work. 

Wishing you all pf days and nights :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JandSmomma on May 9th, 2012 at 12:22am
MMI,

That's awesome news! I'm so happy for you  :D

I'm an ECHer, and my episodes usually only lasted about 2 weeks. This time around the beast decided to stick around for 6+ weeks. I started a 1/2 dose of the regimen in week 5 and noticed a reduction in KIP levels. Got my 25(OH)D test done and have now upped to a full dose. Happy to report that I went PF rather quickly (2-3 days). Not sure if it was the regimen or the end of my cycle, either way I'm stoked!  8-) I plan on staying on a full dose of the regimen until (at least) September, my next cycle should (if it follows it's prior pattern) start again in August. Here's hoping it comes and goes without me feeling a thing  ;)

Take care all, and here's for PFDAN for everyone REAL soon,
Amy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 9th, 2012 at 1:27am
Darkfire...

Interesting responses...  Not many CH switch-hitters so you're among a very elite group...  I suspect the situation will improve and you'll be PF in not too much time...

Don, hang in there...  Did you have a blood draw for the 25(OH)D lab test?

MM&I,  Thanks for the SITREP...  It's a wonderful feeling being PF that long isn't it? 

Regarding indulging on triggers...  There were times in the early 70's when... when I was younger, (and a lot more foolish), when the USS Hancock would pull into NAS Cubi Pt, in the Philippines after a month or more of round the clock flight Ops on Yankee Station off the coast of Vietnam...  when we would try to drink the San Miguel Brewery out of their Pale Pilsen...

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No matter how hard we tried, we were never successful, but we did end up with a condition the next morning, before CH so it wasn't a shadow... called a hangover...

As I recall it took several Cubi Specials the next day, a delightful concoction of orange juice, pineapple juice, mango juice, cranberry juice, grenadine and equal parts rum to start the healing process. 

That process also included munching on two or three Cubi Dogs, a wonderful hot dog with all the toppings, while simultaneously conducting ray recoveries and combat naps at the Cubi BOQ Pool...  No shortage of vitamin D3 in those days...

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By 1700 we were usually sufficiently recovered to don our Hong Kong made finest for another night's attempt to drink the San Miguel Brewery dry...

Hey Amy,  great news...  It's tough for an episodic CH'er to tell whether it was end of cycle or the regimen that made the pain go away... 

You've already figured out the best way to tell for sure by staying on this regimen...  Having said that, I think you'll find the anti-inflammatory regimen is a steal at 20 cents a day and well worth taking for the rest of your life...

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by superhawk2300 on May 9th, 2012 at 8:42am
Awesome pics Batch! Thx so much for sharing and thanks for your service! Pics remind me of my dads pics from the same era - he's a Vietnam war vet.
I am hoping the Prednisone will either knock out my cycle or get me through until my cycle is over, as my typical cycle would end in another month or so, thou once in a while I get a cycle that is a good 2 months longer.

That said, there are enough side benefits the the Batch D3 program that even if that is the case I'll stay on the program anyways.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tammygue on May 9th, 2012 at 10:59am
Ok, So I am a little slow this morning due to my daily visitor so bare with me.  Ok so my doctor did do the vitamin D test and told me my numbers were very low that I did not even register vitamin D.  So with that said that is why they put me on the Vitamin D2 50,000 1x a week.  Can I add D3 being they are different or did they give me the wrong D all together, this was givin by my primary Dr who knows nothing about CH, not my neurologist. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on May 9th, 2012 at 1:43pm
D3 is said to be "stronger" than D2, but in the end-result in the body is the same. D2 is preferred by vegetarians.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 9th, 2012 at 3:59pm
Tammy,

If your primary care physician ordered the 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D lab test and the results were low, it would help to know the actual concentration.   It's usually expressed in ng/mL, but it's also occasionally expressed in nmol/L.  Your physician's office staff should be able to confirm the type of lab test and actual results.  Call them.

I'm not a doctor so you need to address taking vitamin D3 on top of vitamin D2 with your primary care physician. 

Again, there's a difference between vitamin D2 and vitamin D3.  What I can also say is CH'ers who have used the anti-inflammatory regimen to go pain free have all used vitamin D3...

"According to the latest research, D3 is approximately 87 percent more potent in raising and maintaining vitamin D concentrations and produces 2- to 3-fold greater storage of vitamin D than does D2. Regardless of which form you use, your body must convert it into a more active form, and vitamin D3 is converted 500 percent faster than vitamin D2. Vitamin D2 also has a shorter shelf life, and its metabolites bind poorly with proteins, further hampering its effectiveness. "  see the following link for more info:

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Take care and please keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tammygue on May 9th, 2012 at 4:12pm
Batch

I called the doctors office and they said the results were 22.2, I am not sure if that helps it was the receptionist who just told me the number the report said.  I also put a call into my neuro asking them to call and see what he says about switching me to the D3 or if I can just go and buy it.

Tammy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 10th, 2012 at 1:14am
Tammy,

Good on you for calling to get the lab results...  A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 22.2 ng/mL is clearly deficient.

The sooner you start taking vitamin D3, calcium, and the cofactor supplements the better...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on May 11th, 2012 at 2:17pm
Hi Batch

Got my serum level test back, 153 nmol/L .  Which I guess just puts me in the overlap area.  Getting 3 kip 3/4 hits a night lasting 10 mins when taking O2.  Have been taking 20000 iu D3 for 1 1/2 weeks, loaded 50000 IU last Sunday. All with co factors, getting shadow as I am typing this.  Will obviously persist and load again this Sunday.

keep smiling

Radar 8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by xpywka on May 11th, 2012 at 10:18pm
Hi: (apologies if this is a double, I wrote a reply and my message disappeared into nowhere, so I'm trying again). Anyway, I was hoping to see if anyone has had a problem with dexamethasone mucking up the D-3 regimen? My doc put me on dex when verapamil lost it's effectiveness. I've only been at the D-3 for about 6 days and I have no intention of stopping, I'll stick with it...

Nasty stuff dexamethasone!! It's a steroid that is 10 times stronger than prednisone and my wife says it turns me into a monster!! It's like 10 espressos and keeps you up at night - always irritable and mad!!  Not sure if it's helping with the  c.h's anyway. Fortunately, I'll be done with it in a week.

Wondering too if, in the D-3 regimen,  fish oil can be subed for, say, flax or other omega 3 ? Not for me, but I thought it might help my wifes migrains ( I noticed some have had good results) - she's a vegan....

Thanks for so much good info!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 12th, 2012 at 1:26pm
xpywka,

The effect of corticosteroids on vitamin D3 metabolism is a contentious issue...  Having said that, there are several randomized, double blind, placebo controlled studies that prove calcium and vitamin D3 prevents loss of bone mineral density in in patients with rheumatoid arthritis who were treated with low-dose corticosteroids...  so vitamin D3 still works at least to maintain BMD in the presence of steroids...  In short, no big worry... 

Have you seen your doctor for the 25(OH)D lab test?  Knowing the concentration of 25(OH)D will give you a good idea how long on average, it will take for a favorable CH response.

As far as other sources of omega 3 fatty acids for vegans go, any source your wife finds acceptable should work.  It's the anti-inflammatory properties you're looking for not necessarily the source.

My wife has been free of her chronic migraines for 17 months since she started the complete anti-inflammatory regimen.  For nearly twenty years they came like clockwork each month...  Now they're gone...  The only thing she does different is take 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

I'm tracking two other chronic migraineurs who are on the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Both of them are going on their 4th month on this regimen and they're still PF of their migraine headaches.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by xpywka on May 12th, 2012 at 7:16pm
Hi Batch:

Thanks for getting back to me!!   Bremerton huh? That makes us almost next door since I'm in Tacoma.  I am planning to have the blood/ lab test soon, I'm looking now for a neurologist so hope to see one in the next week or two. Sure would love to find one who know what a  cluster is, I've had to show up with all the info I could bring with me in the past...

Meanwhile I've been dosing d-3 @  50,000 on Sundays, and 20,000 other days (along with the other regimen items). I figured I'd push it a bit so as to minimize the wondering if It'll work in my case... I've been reading some back discussions here on this subject, most helpful!!

That's good news about the migraineurs getting relief as well, my wife will also try this I think.

Lots of free D around our neck of the woods this weekend! Seems like we went from spring to summer in a day! Thanks for all your hard work!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bhb on May 14th, 2012 at 12:13pm
Just an update since I've been taking this.

This is the 1st Spring in years and years that I'm not in horrible pain doing nothing but getting to work and waiting it out. I actually have days where I'm thinking "what do I do with myself" as I've never made any plans from April to July since I knew I'd be beating my head and praying for an end. I've gone to 30,000 D3 and I only have very slight different feelings that go away in seconds - but NO pain. My family is amazed and I've even gone out a few times. I will admit that I haven't gotten past the fear factor that it'll rear up and I'll have to be the party poop er but it hasn't happened.

This has been a life saver for me and I really hope it helps everybody to get life back.

Spring is really pretty this year and I'm so glad to enjoy it. ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 14th, 2012 at 11:41pm
bhb,

Thanks for the update.  It's a fantastic feeling being free of the beast isn't it?  There's so much more you can do without wondering when the next attack is going to strike...  You're in control now...  and the sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll get over the fear factor.

You've also provided us with another important datum on dosing with vitamin D3.  For several months after I started this thread, it appeared the overall efficacy was a little better than 70% with the other 30% of CH'ers who didn't respond falling into an unknown category for some reason.

The thinking at the time was there were CH'ers who's condition was being driven by some other factors that for some reason didn't respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

However, over the last few months there's been a growing body of evidence that suggests vitamin D3 therapy will be effective for the 30% who didn't respond to 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3...  They just require a higher daily dose.

The key thing here is the lab test for 25(OH)D...  As I've said many times...  You're shooting in the dark if you don't know your 25(OH)D level...

When you get the time, tell us about your vitamin D3 dosing schedule between your episodic cycles...

Take care and please keep us posted.

xpywka,

You're right...  We're almost neighbors...  We'll need to work out a rendezvous at some point given we're 30 to 40 minutes apart... And yes, the weather has been spectacular here in the Puget Sound area...  The last five days of severe blue sky with temps in the 80s have been delightful... 

The only problem now is not enough rain...  The lawn is starting to dry out and so is the garden...  I had to soak the raspberries and loganberries today to ensure a good bloom.

Take care and please keep us posted on your progress...  Higher doses of vitamin D3 appears to be the winning ticket for CH'ers who don't respond to 10,000 IU/day.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bhb on May 15th, 2012 at 8:29am
I haven't done a blood test as it's just not in the budget yet.

what I did do was during winter I went to 5,000 D3 as I've only once ever gotten hit in winter. When March came around I went to 10,000 knowing that for the last 40 years I've spent every Spring losing my mind. Around the end of March I could feel things starting to begin so changed to 15,000 and after a week went up to 20,000. Right now would be the worst of the bout and as I was getting shadows and a few very mild hits, generally around storms, I jumped to the 30,000 and it's just a tiny feeling that's not even as bad as a sinus headache so for now I'll stay at the 30,000 level.

It is really nice to just do something and not plan it around the least painful times of the day. To just go out at anytime and mow without even thinking about it. To have someone call and want to go somewhere and be able to say YES I can go with. I've felt this incredible peace and a quiet joy that this is what life is supposed to be like.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MPMIII on May 15th, 2012 at 2:18pm
Been a while since I've been on the site.  Still chronic, but the last couple of weeks have been harder than usual, so I thought I would log in to see if there was anything new.  Started the vitamins last night.  I'll keep you posted. Seems to be promising.  I am still reading through the posts. 

Regards,

Malcom 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bhb on May 16th, 2012 at 7:49am
I saw my neuro yesterday for a different problem, MS and he saw that it seems to have slowed. I also noticed that I wasn't falling or as unsteady for the last 2 weeks. After going over the only thing that's changed my increase in D3 for the headaches he wants me to increase the amount I'm taking to 50,000 after I get the blood work done which can now be covered by insurance as it's ordered by the doc. I'm supposed to stay at 50,000 for 4 months which is fine as I wasn't going to decrease until Oct as the 1 month between my Spring and Autumn hits wouldn't be long enough to lower the D3 like the break for Winter. This will probably change any info I can provide for the headaches but if this does something to help the MS go into remission I'd be really happy as I wasn't looking forward to the wheelchair in my future.

As a side note I was surprised I had to bring info from here to convince him that females can have CH.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JandSmomma on May 16th, 2012 at 11:19am
And here I thought maybe my spring episode was done....

Started having light shadows on Saturday. By Monday they were heavy shadows. Then last night I got hit with a KIP 8 that lasted longer then any CH I've ever had  >:( Guess I'm going to up my D3 and see if it helps calm the beast back down. I should be hearing from my doc soon about the 25(OH)D levels real soon. Ya'll will be the first to know...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 16th, 2012 at 5:20pm
bhb,

Thank you for the fascinating response...  It appears you've come up with a perfectly logical and very effective year-round vitamin D3 dosing strategy to control your cluster headaches...

Fellow episodic CH'ers would do well to see their doctors about using this dosing strategy to prevent their CH instead of resorting to the very invasive prescription medications with all their onerous side effects...

That your neurologist called for the lab test for 25(OH)D and prescribed 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for your RRMS is also very encouraging...   My guess is he prescribed the 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for four months based on his prerogative as a board certified neurologist...  and the fact that there have been some gold standard studies linking vitamin D3 deficiency and RRMS...

Treating RRMS with vitamin D3 was unheard of a few years ago...   If neurologists have connected the dots between a vitamin D3 deficiency and RRMS...  there's hope they'll do the same for a vitamin D3 deficiency and cluster headache...

BTW...  I've a friend and fellow shipmate I've known for nearly 40 years who's wife has RRMS...  They were exited that she was starting on copaxone (glatiramer)...  Unfortunately, the results were minimal and disappointing... 

I told them about the anti-inflammatory regimen and sent them a copy of a study of RRMS patients taking vitamin D3 to control this disorder...  His wife has been taking 20,000 to 30,000 IU/day vitamin D3 since March of 2011.  She walks just fine, has only an occasional ache and pain... and no major relapses...

A major gold standard study of RRMS patients using vitamin D3 in Finland concluded the relapse-free zone was a serum 25(OH)D concentration above 50 ng/mL...  Sound familiar?

I've spent the last five months trying to interest some of the world's leading neurologists who specialize in treating patients suffering from cluster headache on the safety and efficacy of this regimen in preventing the terrible pain of our disorder...

I've done this in an attempt to elevate this method of treating cluster headaches into the current thinking among the leading neurologists treating patients with our disorder in the hope that one or more of them would take the challenge and start a clinical study on it.

Unfortunately, their response so far has been underwhelming to say the least... 

Most want to see the results of a gold standard double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial showing statistically and clinically meaningful improvements in cluster headache episodes associated with the active treatment... instead of conducting such a study 

It appears they want to see this kind of medical evidence before suggesting the lab test for 25(OH)D and followup vitamin D3 therapy to their patients should the results of this lab test come back indicating a vitamin D3 deficiency...

In short... we're stuck in a "do loop..."  Which comes first... chicken or the egg?

Meanwhile, forward thinking CH'ers like all of you who've responded with posts to this thread because you've taken the bull by the horns and given this regimen a try...  most with very exciting results...

Given the very encouraging results reported so far here at CH.com and ClusterBusters...  I think the CH'er community of sufferers in general is starting to get the word... that this regimen really works to prevent cluster headaches... for an average of 20 cents a day no less...  and it's the neurologists who are at the steep end of the learning curve...

If we continue to ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D to determine if we're vitamin D3 deficient and take information on the effectiveness of this regimen to the neurologists and primary care physicians who treat us, they might just start catching up with us... 

One or two enterprising types might also take pen in hand and publish a clinical evaluation...  When that happens... Katey bar the door...  There'll be a flood of new studies on this topic registered on clinicaltrials.gov.

Most of all we need CH'ers who have either had a favorable response to this regimen or tried it for at least 6 to 8 weeks with increased vitamin D3 doses above 10,000 IU/day take the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Survey...  Even if you didn't experience a favorable response after 6-8 weeks or had to stop this regimen for some reason...  Take the survey...

Results from this survey will carry far more weight than a claim of effectiveness any one of us can make.

Take care bhb...  and thanks again for the wonderful replies.

Hey Malcom...  Welcome to the club...  Chronic CH'ers respond to this regimen with better than acceptable efficacy...  The odds are in your favor.

Ask your doctor for the 25(OH)D lab test.  With the results in hand, you'll have a better idea how long it might take to have a favorable response to this regimen.

Take care and please keep us posted on your progress.


V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tammygue on May 17th, 2012 at 3:32pm
Hello there

So I have switched to D3 from the D2 prescription I was given my neuro said he doesnt care what form of D I take as long as I take it.  I had 3 loading doses 50,000 once a week, about a week ago I started 10,000 D3 daily, I tried 3 pills Fishoil and had to bring it down to 2 a day, calcium 600mg with 500 D and a Multivitamin that includeds another 1,000 D, more calcium, magnesium, zinc etc. 

I have been having lighter CH's except this morning about a 8on KIP scale, should I up my doses?  I am way past when I thought my cycle would end I just want to put the beast back to sleep....

Please let me know what you think
Tammy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 17th, 2012 at 11:15pm
Hey Tammy,

Thanks for the update and great question.  I'm glad your neurologist gave you a green light to switch to vitamin D3. 

I know the feeling that you want the attacks to stop and the beast to go back to sleep so you can get some of the same...  'Been there, done it, and have a T-shirt to prove it...

I also don't see any problem increasing your intake of vitamin D3 to 20,000 IU/day and still continue the loading dose of 50,000 IU once a week. 

You'll be using the brute force method at that point, but even a weekly intake of vitamin D3 this high is still nowhere near what some MS patients take for their disorder and well below the 280,000 IU/week that several studies have shown to be a safe sustainable dose of vitamin D3.

It's clear you're also taking the other important parts of this regimen, so given your cycle is lasting longer than normal, there may be other factors in play like a low arterial pH...  too much acid...

Try taking the calcium tablets with a glass of sugar free lemonade...  I made it fresh and used Splenda to sweeten to taste.  I also like Baja Bob's sugar free Margarita Mix... 

It's fortified with additional citric acid and strange as it may sound, this actually lowers the acid content of the lower GI tract and elevates arterial pH to the upper end of the normal range... I like Baja Bob's sugar free margarita mix with or without the tequila...  Fortunately, alcohol has never been a trigger for me..

An alkalizing and anti-inflammatory diet might help as well.  Cut out all sugars and high starch foods.  Fresh fish and chicken are great, but limit red meat to once a week.  Eat lots of colored vegetables, cheese, fruits, whole grains and nuts...

Try to eat a serving of GOMBS every day...  GOMBS stands for Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans/Berries and Seeds...  A handful of each is usually sufficient.

I make a tasty bean salad using a can of each: string beans, kidney beans and garbanzo beans. I add to that a half sweet onion and three to four fresh jalapeńo peppers (split in half and scrape out the seeds and placenta before slicing to cut the heat).  I also add a half a small carton of sliced baby portobello mushrooms and a couple heaping tablespoons of sunflower seeds... 

I season the mix with garlic powder, McCormick's Perfect Pinch Lemon Herb seasoning and fresh ground pepper to taste then top with a dressing of fresh squeezed lemon juice and plenty of extra virgin olive oil.

I also make a killer broccoli soup...  Half a medium head of broccoli tops and stems, half a sweet onion sliced and diced, and a half small carton of sliced baby portobello mushrooms. 

I add these to a frying pan with a couple slices of chopped bacon that's just about done, season the mix with lots of garlic powder and the lemon herb seasoning, then stir fry until the broccoli starts turning bright green... 

When the broccoli is almost done and still a bit crunchy, I add a half can of drained garbanzo beans to warm them up for a minute then dump the entire mix into a blender with a can of chicken consomme and a half cup of heavy cream. 

Blend until the lumps are gone and the consistency looks like thick pea soup. I also kick it up a notch by adding a quarter to half teaspoon of curry powder and blend again for a couple seconds...  Serve with a dollop of sour cream and fresh ground pepper.

The berry and seed parts of GOMBS are easy...  Make yourself a berry smoothie every morning...  Fresh or frozen raspberries, blackberries and strawberries also provide the seeds...  Sweeten with Splenda if the smoothie gets too tart.  If you get hungry during the day snack on some almonds...

Hmmm...  this is starting to sound more like Guy Fieri's Diners, Drive-ins and Dives than Medications,  Treatments,  Therapies...  but then...  we are what we are... or what we eat...  or something to that effect...

Please believe me... I'm not a health food nut...  I smoke like a chimney and enjoy my evening rum & cokes and a glass or two of wine with dinner...  but there is clearly something about eating the right food types that helps the body help itself...

You can read more about alkalizing and anti-inflammatory diets as well as the GOMBS self-healing diet at the following links:

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Take care and please keep us posted...  I suspect you're only a few days away from going pain free..

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 18th, 2012 at 3:15am
Amy,

Sorry to be so slow in responding to your post...  Bumping the vitamin D3 up by another 5,000 IU/day might just do the trick to send the beast running for cover...

How are your kids doing?

Please keep us posted on the results of your 25(OH)D lab test.  I'm guessing the concentration was low when you had the blood draw...

Take care and hang in there.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on May 18th, 2012 at 4:57am
An observation of sleep improvement with vitamin D supplementation led to a 2year uncontrolled trial of vitamin D supplementation in 1500 patients with neurologic complaints who also had evidence of abnormal sleep. Most patients had improvement in neurologic symptoms and sleep but only through maintaining a narrow range of 25(OH) vitamin D3 blood levels of 60-80ng/ml. Comparisons of brain regions associated with sleep-wake regulation and vitamin D target neurons in the diencephalon and several brainstem nuclei suggest direct central effects of vitamin D on sleep. We propose the hypothesis that sleep disorders have become epidemic because of widespread vitamin D deficiency. The therapeutic effects together with the anatomic-functional correspondence warrant further investigation and consideration of vitamin D in the etiology and therapy of sleep disorders.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Seed on May 18th, 2012 at 9:20am
Hey Batch & Everyone,

No, I haven't been to the lab yet to get my levels tested but it's something I will go do.  Do I need to get a doctor to send me there or do you generally just walk in?

My headaches have been ramping again in intesnsity and frequency in the last week or two.  Still on 20,000IU of D3 and not going to stop.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 18th, 2012 at 9:33am
To NHS, great posting on the sleep study. I'm a 52 year old male with no other health issues except CH. I was getting used to the wake up calls 2-3 times a night to use the bathroom! Since going on the D-3 regimen, I regularly sleep through the night, waking  up only 2-3 times a WEEK to hit the head. Obviously this ranks low on the "scientific cause and effect chart", and I don't know which mechanism it's affecting. Is it deepening my sleep or actually easing the aging prostate issues?  Other....umm..."ISSUES" normally associated in men my age,  ;)   have also been corrected, which leans me towards the regimen also having a positive  affect on the prostate. So, since starting the regimen last year, I haven't had a cycle, my sleep has radically improved, and my "married life" is happier!  Crossing my fingers that THIS proves the elusive magic bullet for me.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on May 18th, 2012 at 9:46am
Improved sleep was also one of of my first D3 experiences.  My father recently begun taking 5000 IU a day and he reports that his sleep quality is much better.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tammygue on May 18th, 2012 at 9:47am
Thank you Batch,

I will say I am a horrible eater latley,  I have been having fruit everyday with my lunch so thats a plus and I probably would eat dog poop at this point if you told me the pain would go away.  Everything with this cycle is off.  The times have switched etc., I just got to work and feel horrible because of my 6:00 wakeup call.  I have been late to work everyday for 2 weeks, I am sure they are loving that.  I have to change my mindset as well, I am at the crying stage, I had enough stage, I am sure you all know what I mean.

By the way you just made me very hungry by reading all of that :)  think I may have to try one of the recipes tonight

Thanks again

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 18th, 2012 at 10:31am
Hey nhs,

Thanks for posting this abstract...  I just checked and my RSS bird dog had also picked it up in a feed from PubMed.

Great article and spot on target with respect to the optimum serum 25(OH)D concentration.  It supports what we've been saying about vitamin D3 and cluster headache all the way along...

I think their hypothesis that sleep disorders have become epidemic because of widespread vitamin D deficiency is on target and it's going to be easy to prove...

I just checked the online survey of the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Better sleep was a common theme in many of the comments about favorable side effects.

I'm working up a note to the folks at ETMC about the data in this thread on CH and a vitamin D3 deficiency...

I think we're out at the cutting edge of finding the best vitamin D3 dosing strategies needed to elevate 25(OH)D serum concentrations rapidly and safely into the optimum therapeutic range to prevent CH and maintaining them.   

Take care and thanks again for alerting us to this abstract.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 18th, 2012 at 10:53am
Seed,

Here's a link to ZRT labs. 

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They have two options on this page.  You can find a local provider (M.D.) to do the test and use your medical insurance or you can order it direct without a prescription for $65 and DIY at home then mail in the blood spots you collected... 

They'll send the results back to you within a couple days after receipt.  They also have an online training video that walks you through the collection process.

I keep two of their blood spot collection kits on hand...

Hey Tammy,

I know what you're going through when CH makes a wake up call to start your day then try to recover enough to go to work...  Hang in there. The frequency and severity of your CH should start dropping shortly...

Take care and keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on May 19th, 2012 at 12:49pm
Hi Batch
Not having a good time unfortunately, getting hit about 5 times a night, varies in pain up to kip 7.  Using O2 to abort, but whereas with previous episodes I could abort in 5-8 mins, now it is taking 20 at least, am using the method you have posted elsewhere on here, but can't get to hyperventilation. Unfortunately British NHS only provides 15L per min regs.  25(OH) D test was 153 nmol/ L 2 weeks ago, have been dosing at 20, 000 pday split morning and evening with appropriate co factors.  Also been loading 50000 on Sundays, will send off another test after tomorrows loading, beginning to wonder as to my safe level.  Have used delayed release melatonin  for the last 3 nights, this has increased the gap between hits later in the night and the intensity later on.

Guess I must just be patient,  :o. Good luck everybody

Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Susie Spouse on May 19th, 2012 at 1:51pm
Husband w/ classic cluster headaches - no doubt that 's what it looks like and acts like except for one thing.... age of onset .... 61 !! He is healthy social drinker and smoker. Started 6 weeks ago - 3-6 headaches per night - usually dusk to dawn. GP Rxed O2 - working well @ 6 lpm using nasal cannula, averts or stops HA in 5-10 minutes.

BATCH, we asked for D levels amongst all the other testing they've been doing - Result 35.2 ng/ml. He has been on your regimen for 3 weeks - I am telling him it's time to try 20,000 iu per day after loading one day w/ 50,000 iu.  Correct???  He does not want to try any heavy-duty drugs and is committed to trying the 123 Days  PF way for as long as it takes.

I have been reading here for several weeks! Thanks to all for all your help! 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 19th, 2012 at 4:10pm
Hey Susie,

Thanks for the post and for being such a great supporter...

Regarding age and CH...  Although I'm PF, I'm 67 and I'm still chronic...  ICHD-II notwithstanding,.. at least I was chronic the last time I did an intentional 25(OH)D stress test by stopping this regimen completely for 8 days until I got whacked... 

20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 with a weekly loading dose should work just fine as long as your husband is taking the calcium and cofactor minerals..

Given your husband's serum 25(OH)D concentration was 35.2 and he's been taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, that should place him near 50 ng/m by now on the lower solid line in the chart below.  Switching to the higher dosing strategy should shave a week off the time to reach 60 ng/mL, the lower threshold of the 60-110 ng/mL CH PF zone.

If my estimates are correct, your husband should be PF in a week give or take a day or two...

You know you don't need to have CH to start this regimen... My wife takes it and loves how it makes her feel...  She's been taking 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 since Dec 2010 and has been completely free of her chronic migraines since then.

When your husband finally goes PF, he's going to start feeling a bit more frisky... If you start on this regimen now...    ::)

If your husband is a DIY type, print out the instructions for a redneck reservoir bag oxygen breathing system...  it will cut his abort times in half...

I posted the DIY instructions and the hyperventilation breathing techniques at the following link, reply #4:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch



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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Akina on May 20th, 2012 at 1:21am
Hey Batch, wanted to give you some more good news about this D3 regime.

I have myriad of conditions, namely Major Depressive Disorder, myofascial pain syndrome and tension headaches.  My husband (Aubanbird) who follows your regime pushed and pushed me to at least try it since he's gone mostly PF from it.

I am VERY excited to say that since starting it (2 weeks ago), the tension headaches are completely gone.  Haven't had a single one (and I was having 3 or 4 a day!).  My chronic pain levels are down to a level that I can live and have fun with.  And the depression?  I haven't had a SINGLE symptom of it since I started.

I will be heading to the doctor next week (time for another medication sit-down discussion), so I will see if he will go ahead and order me the 25(OH)D blood text before the appointment.  I have the records from my last one, and would really like to see if there has been an increase (I was below 30 on my latest one).

Thank you, thank you, and thank you again for giving both my husband and myself our lives back.

(Added note:  I just walked over 3 miles today for the first time in 7 years!!! Take THAT chronic pain!!)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on May 20th, 2012 at 3:15am
Totally sweet news!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 20th, 2012 at 9:12am
Akina,

Thank you for the awesome post and kind words...  It watered my eyes and left me speechless.... 

This is not just good news...  it's fantastic news!

Your testimony to the effectiveness and benefits of vitamin D3 and the anti-inflammatory therapy is very compelling.  It will do far more to motivate thousands of CH'ers all over the world to give this simple regimen of vitamin and mineral supplements a try than anything I could possibly say... 

Although the myofascial pain syndrome, tension headache and cluster headache are distinct, they're all painful headaches in general... and close enough for government work...   Accordingly, in as much as they responded to this regimen, when you get the results back from your next lab test for 25(OH)D, please take the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Survey.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you again for sharing this wonderful news with us.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 21st, 2012 at 2:05pm
Hey Ian,

Sorry you're having such a rough time...  There are a couple things to try with your oxygen therapy if you've not already given them a go.

Ventilating the lungs deeply enough with hyperventilation to cast off CO2 faster than the body generates it is an important part of oxygen therapy as an abortive for CH. 

As you're limited by an oxygen flow rate of 15 liters/minute, make up the difference by taking two breaths of room air using the forced vital capacity breathing technique with an abdominal crunch on exhalation after the lungs feel empty until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds...    Then take a lung full of oxygen and use the same exhalation breathing technique.  Keep repeating this sequence...

3 to 4 breathing sequences like this and you should be feeling the symptoms of paresthesia with a slight tingling or prickling of the fingertips, lips or back of the neck.  You may even feel a little dizzy. 

The symptoms of paresthesia are the best indication you're getting the fastest abort of your CH as possible

The other option is to build yourself a redneck oxygen reservoir bag out of a 40 gal trash bag or 55 gal, drum liner and hyperventilate with the same forced vital capacity breathing technique.

I posted the DIY instructions and the hyperventilation breathing techniques at the following link, reply #4:

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Regarding your 25(OH)D serum concentration...  153 nmol/L, (62 ng/mL), is just barely into the lower threshold of the green zone for a favorable CH therapeutic response to 25(OH)D and well below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 500 nmol/L, (200 ng/mL). 

The "Green Zone" terminology may be confusing to some.  The green zone represents a range of 25(OH)D serum concentrations reported by CH'ers who have gone pain free while using this regimen. 

Some went PF as low as a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 ng/mL (150 nmol/L) and some went PF as high as 110 ng/mL, (275 nmol/L)...  The rest went PF somewhere in between. 

Accordingly, if you're looking for a target 25(OH)D serum concentration to shoot for and maintain in order to stay safely in the green zone and CH PF, use 95 ng/mL, (237.5 nmol/L).  It's well below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication and well above the lower threshold of the CH therapeutic green zone... 

Having a 25(OH)D serum concentration this high means there's no worry if you miss or skip a daily dose of vitamin D3 as you should have a week or so reserves of 25(OH)D at that concentration.

As you can see in the chart below developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, the 25(OH)D response over time to a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day reaches equilibrium around 95 ng/mL., (237.5 nmol/L).

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That makes a dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 a good therapeutic dose to get you pain free and also a good maintenance dose to keep you pain free.

For the CH'ers using higher vitamin D3 doses with a weekly loading dose to go pain free faster... 

Try to get tested for 25(OH)D as soon as possible after going PF then throttle back to 15,000 or 10,000 IU.day. 

After that, try to get tested for 25(OH)D at least once every six months to make sure your 25(OH)D levels are stable.

Obviously, if your CH return at a dose of 10,000 IU/day, you'll likely need a higher maintenance dose of vitamin D3...  Try 15,000 IU/day for starters.

If your neurologist is unwilling to order the 25(OH)D lab test or flies off the handle when you bring up a possible vitamin D3 deficiency or endocrine imbalance (some do...), see your PCP.  If the clue bird hasn't made a low pas on this individual, try to find an Integrative/Homeopathic physician or an endocrinologist... 

These last two types of physicians are generally well suited and experienced in treating vitamin deficiencies...  An endocrinologist is also the go to physician if you think you may have an endocrine imbalance.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on May 24th, 2012 at 5:55pm
Hi Batch
Many thanks for this, made a bootleg bag last weekend, it works a dream.  Also last weekend while feeling sorry for myself was trawling through loads of your past posts on other threads,  came across a comment about vit B12.  Was taking a daily multi vit with high level of B12 for energy release, stopped it as soon as I read your comment, in the last four days my pain has dropped significantly, and I only had two attacks last night that I was barely on the oxygen for 3 mins.  I don't know whether it is the 25OH D serum level coming up ( will test this weekend) or the B12, either way the inflammation and tenderness in my head has gone and fingers crossed I may have a better night than for sometime.  It does feel as if I am about to go PF 4 weeks before I would be due to! (fingers crossed).

Thanks again Batch ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CDog on May 25th, 2012 at 3:23am
I have been on this for about 5 months and so far no results. Vit D level is at 60 and have been on 20000 IU.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 25th, 2012 at 3:22pm
Hey CDog,

Thanks for the update...  A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 ng/mL is at the lower threshold for the CH response range for this regimen...  Having said that, I've also collected data on at least three CH'ers who were still having active CH with 25(OH)D serum concentrations of 55 to 61 ng/mL. 

Moreover, some CH'ers didn't go PF until their serum concentration of 25(OH)D reached 90 to 110 ng/mL.

There's a wide variation in the rate at which we metabolize vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D and also in the rate at which this metabolite is consumed. 

Are you taking the cofactors, i.e., magnesium, vitamin K2, zinc and boron?  They help metabolize vitamin D3 more efficiently into 25(OH)D.

As your serum 25(OH)D concentration is still a bit low, you can try what other CH'ers have done and take a 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 once a week in place of the usual daily dose...  or you can up your daily dose to 25,000 IU/day.

Either dosing strategy is very safe and unlikely to result in vitamin D3 intoxication at a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 200 ng/mL.  That would take a dose of more than 40,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for at least three months.

Take care, hang in there, and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CDog on May 25th, 2012 at 8:58pm
I have done the cofactors, also started having nausea after all these months, cut back to 10000 on the vitamin d and it went away. Not sure why it started to bother me...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 28th, 2012 at 9:49am
CDog,

The nausea bit due to an increased dose of vitamin D3 after several months has me stumped...  That said, there's nothing wrong in tummy tuning your vitamin D3 dose... 

There are a number of physiological processes either directly or indirectly related to vitamin D3 metabolism to 25(OH)D...  Any one of them or the combination of Omega 3 Fish Oil could be responsible for the upset tummy.

10,000 IU/day should continue to elevate your 25(OH)D...  It's just going to take a little longer to build your serum concentrations higher than 60 ng/mL.

Take care and please keep us posted...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on May 29th, 2012 at 8:13pm
Hi Batch

  Just checking in with my continued good news.  'Puter went on the fritz a few weeks ago, so using my wife's laptop to write this (and having to correct mis-spells every five or six words).

  So . . . still PF since mid-November.  Have an appt with my oncologist in a couple of weeks for six-month bloodwork and will ask him to check my D3 levels at that time (he's always been very accommodating so I don't expect a problem getting same)

  I've passed the beer/brandy test and none of my (formerly guaranteed attack) triggers are active.  It's really strange, after eleven years chronic, to not have the beast as a constant companion and to leave the house without my 02.  I can live with that kind of strange.

  Thanks again,

    Be Safe,   PFDANs

        Richard

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 29th, 2012 at 9:06pm
Hey Richard,

Thanks for the wonderful update...  Please give us an update on your 25(OH)D lab results when they come in...  I think your oncologist is going to like them as well as your other blood work nums...

Take care and thanks again,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tammygue on May 30th, 2012 at 3:44pm
Finally PF 2 days (Yeehaw) I have shadows still but I will take that.  I have upped my D3 to around 16,000-20,000 and switched everything to a liquid form vitamin hoping for quicker results (which I think did the trick)...

Thanks for everything
Tammy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on May 30th, 2012 at 5:22pm
Hey Batch,

Can you give me some input on my current regimen?

Breakfast:
D-3 5000 IU
Fish Oil 1000 mg

Lunch:
D-3 5000 IU
Fish Oil 1000 mg

30 minutes before dinner with a glass of lemonade:
Calcium Citrate tablets containing:
Calcium 500 mg
D-3 250 IU
B-6 10 mg
Magnesium 80 mg
Zinc 10 mg
Copper 1 mg
Manganese 1 mg
Boron 1 mg

Dinner:
D3 5000 IU
Fish Oil 1000 mg

Late night:
D3 5000 IU
Fish Oil 1000 mg

So in total, I'm up to 20,000 IU and 4000 mg of fish oil.  I was originally at 15,000 IU but once I started a new cycle and it wasn't responding to the old regimen, I bumped it up another 5000 IU a couple of days ago.  I haven't been able to get my 25(OH)D tested because I'm currently a student without health insurance. 

Is there anything I'm missing?  Are the mineral cofactors that are included in my calcium citrate supplement sufficient?  Also, if I don't respond to 20,000 IU, should I bump it up to 25,000 and if so, would I have to subsequently take more fish oil, calcium citrate and mineral cofactors?

Thanks,
Brian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 30th, 2012 at 6:30pm
Hey Tammy,

Thanks for the wonderful update...  I suspect the shadows will depart in another few days...

Brian,

You're looking good to go with your present dosing schedule... Your intake of calcium and the cofactors are spot on...

20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 should be sufficient...  Having said that, if you don't experience a favorable response after a week to 10 days at your present dosing schedule, bump your total vitamin D3 intake up to 50,000 IU one day a week as a loading dose... but maintain your present dosing schedule for the rest of the week. 

That should bring your weekly intake of vitamin D3 to 190,000 IU.  That's well below the upper safe three month limit taking 280,000 IU/week.

We've had several CH'ers use the loading dose strategy to speed up the increase in their 25(OH)D reserves with good success...

I worked my way through school at the University of Washington so I recall what life as a student was like... 10 lb bags of rice and beans at bulk prices made ends meet... but they got real old after a while... 

The only thing that made it worth while besides a degree in Chemistry was the 5 gal crock of home brew I kept bubbling away in the basement kitchen of my off-campus boarding house.

If you can spare $65...  You can get the lab test for 25(OH)D from ZRT labs without a prescription...  The link to their web site follows:

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You can also order the $65 blood spot test kit by calling them at (866) 600-1636.  The web site has a video that will walk you through the collection procedure...  I keep two of the ZRT blood spot test kits on hand...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on May 31st, 2012 at 4:31am
Awesome...thanks Batch!  I'll be sure to post some updates in this thread.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cremar on May 31st, 2012 at 11:18am
Hi Batch,

I'm a new member currently living in Port Orchard, so we are practically neighbors.  I've been taking 10,000 IU D3 and the fish oil for a week now.  I had the lab test done two days ago and it came back at 37.  Should I up my D3 to 20,000 a day and do the 1 day a week loading dose of 50,000?  How long do you think it will take for me to get to a sufficient level?  Thanks for all your efforts!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 31st, 2012 at 10:35pm
Shazbot!

Cremar, we're less than 15 minutes apart... We live the other side of Bremerton in the Tracyton area...  It's always a hoot to meet a fellow CH'er so we need to plan a rendezvous at some point.

The ideal conservative strategy for vitamin D3 dosing or dosing with any medication or nutrient for that mater, is to use the lowest therapeutic dose to achieve the desired results...  10,000 IU/day of vitamin D3 was unheard of a few years ago so you're already ahead of the pack...

A serum concentration of 25(OH)D of 37 ng/mL may be within the "normal reference range" for this metabolite of vitamin D3, but it's well below the lower threshold of the 60 to 110 ng/mL "Green Zone" where nearly all of the CH'ers who respond to this regimen test after going pain free... 

If you've seen any of the charts developed by Dr. Robert Heany, M.D. I've posted, you'll see the 25(OH)D response curve increases in slope (gets you there faster) as the dose of vitamin D3 goes up.

Accordingly, I would give the present dose of vitamin D3 you're taking another 5 days to a week, and if you've not experienced a favorable reaction by then, you can add the 50,000 IU loading dose once a week in place of the daily dose, and up the daily dose of vitamin D3 to 20,000 IU/day for the rest of the week.

Using this dosing strategy will speed up the process of building your 25(OH)D reserves towards the green zone by a few days...  and believe me, I know what a few less days of cluster headache pain can mean in the quality of your life...  "Been there... done it... and I've several T-shirts to prove it...

That said, pushing the total vitamin D3 dose too high too fast may not be the best way to go pain free in less time or have a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH... 

Our bodies have a number of control mechanisms to deal with processes like this.  It's very likely the extra vitamin D3 you take will build 25(OH)D levels a little faster.  However,  there's no guarantee that the metabolism of 25(OH)D to the next vitamin D3 derivative, 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol) will happen any faster. 

Moreover, although this metabolite is the active form of vitamin D3 that's likely responsible for the effectiveness of this regimen to prevent CH, we're still not sure this is the actual mechanism in play... there are still other processes involved...  Some times, good things are just worth the longer wait...

There's a wide range of response times for this regimen...  Some CH'ers have gone PF in 12 to 24 hours and 80% have experienced a favorable reaction before the end of the third week... Some of the heavy hitters have taken over six weeks although most of them are chronic CH'ers...

I'm confident you'll start enjoying the benefits of this regimen shortly.

Take care, hang in there and please keep us posted. 

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by marc2010 on Jun 4th, 2012 at 4:31pm
Am going to give this a go I have some questions is there risks taken D3 and where can I get them? What's the 10,000 IU mean? Can multi vit do the same thanks

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 4th, 2012 at 11:23pm
Marc2010,

Good questions...  First of all, the anti-inflammatory regimen is very safe.  This regimen contains 10,000 IU/day (250 mcg) vitamin D3, 500 mg/day calcium and the vitamin D3 cofactors including 400 mg/day magnesium, 120 mcg/day vitamin K2, 900 mcg/day (3,000 IU/day) vitamin A, 10 mg/day zinc and 1 mg/day boron.  Sadly, there are no multivitamin tablets I know of with these ingredients and amounts...

Vitamin D3 is likely the safest supplemental nutrient we can take in as much as our skin will develop it naturally for free when exposed to the UV-B in sunlight.  In fact, if you go outside at high noon on a sunny summer day there in the UK, clad in a bathing suit without any sunblock, your skin will develop 15,000 IU in as little as 15 minutes...

The units of measure used for vitamins, minerals, and micronutrients are frequently given in International Units - (IU).  This is essentially a measure of potency. The ratio of IU to weight for vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is 10,000 IU/250 mcg (microgram)...  This conversion factor is different for each vitamin and micronutrient.

Most chemists and apothecary stores in the UK should carry the needed supplements.  However, obtaining the vitamin D3 in 5,000 or 10,000 IU dose per liquid softgel capsule may be problematic. Boots Pharmaceuticals carries vitamin D3, but only in 25 mcg, (1000 IU) size capsules over the counter...  Not sure what they can dispense with an Rx...

If CH'ers there in the UK using this regimen will chime in with sources for vitamin D3, you should be good to go...  If not, I have several friends and fellow CH'ers across Europe who order their supplements over the Internet from sources here in the US.  AmazonUK at the following link offers 360 of the 5,000 IU liquid softgel capsules for Ł9.48...

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The lab test values like the test for 25(OH)D are a measure of concentration either in weight per volume of blood serum, i.e., 30 to 100 ng/mL, (nanograms per milliliter), the normal reference range for 25(OH)D or the same concentration expressed in molarity per volume of blood serum, i.e., 75 - 250 nmol/L, (nanomoles per Liter).

Finally, although your NHS is finally becoming aware that most people in the UK are vitamin D3 deficient, they are still a bit behind the time with respect to what constitutes a therapeutic dose of vitamin D3 and what constitutes a "normal" maintenance dose.   

Although better than no vitamin D3 at all, NHS thinks 25 mcg vitamin D3/day is adequate when the skin makes 250 mcg in less than 10 minutes of direct sunlight if clad in a bathing suit without sun screen...

So I ask you...  Who do you trust...  Your your body or the bureaucrats at NHS?

Hope this helps...  Do try to get the lab test for 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D...  and remember, if your results come back at 30 ng/mL (75 nmol/L) and your PCP tells you your vitamin D level is "Normal..." You're up against a bit of a sticky wicket...  You need a serum concentration of 60-110 ng/mL to go free of the cluster headache pain.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by marc2010 on Jun 5th, 2012 at 2:34am
Thanks for that so should I get a blood test first to check my levels also I take propranolol 80 mg sr for anxeity is this still safe to take 1more thing is am going to get the GON BLOCK this Friday will this have any affect

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 5th, 2012 at 6:34am
Hey Marc,

I'm not a doctor so these are good questions for the neurologist that's going to give you the GON block.  I did check, and could not find any interactions between propranolol and cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) or Omega 3 Fish OIl.

Betamethasone or the other corticosteroids typically used in the GON injection may be another story...

The greater occipital nerve block should buy you a week to 10 days of CH pain relief if you're lucky.  I would have all the anti-inflammatory regimen ingredients ready to take by then as the CH pain can return with a vengeance...

Typical response time to a pain free state with this regimen varies from 12-24 hours out to two weeks for most episodic CH'ers...  Chronic CH'ers tend to take longer...  some out to as much as six weeks to two months depending on the 25(OH)D level at start and the vitamin D3 dose.  It's a good idea to have oxygen therapy handy at a flow rate of 15 liters/minute...

In the mean time, try to get the lab test for your 25(OH)D serum concentration as soon as possible. If you're deficient or insufficient (less than 50-75 nmol/L), it would be unethical not to treat this condition...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:24am
A Danish study has found higher mortality in D-deficient people, but also in those having higher than 50 nmol/L. The mortality is much higher when deficient though.

This study is part of the Danish «CopD», Copenhagen Vitamin D-study which is based on 247.574 people from Copenhagen.

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There may be reason to avoid the very high doses over time.  I've seen people here talk about 20.000 IU a day with additional 50.000 IU weekly «loading doses». That may be wise on a short term, to quickly raise serum levels, but it is not wise long term.

Monitor levels regularly.  I myself found that winter time levels actually dropped with 7.500 IU a day, but kept climbing with 10.000. Apparently  the ideal strategy for me is to decide what level I want to maintain (for instance 150 nmol/L) and maintain it with ca. 9.000 IU a day.

Edit
Here is a possible explanation
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jun 6th, 2012 at 11:18am
Marc2010 batch is spot on with the amazon soft gels, that is what I use.  The best fish oil by far is from health span, I use 1000 mg capsules, used to use the st Clements but there is lots of vita in that, read some nasty stuff about too high vit a.  Have you filled in your Hoof, alythough I am pain free for a lot of the year thanks to Batch, I do have 5 to 8 weeks with a fair amount of pain now.  O2 is a must in our house!  Bear in mind though the local fire brigade like to know if you have oxygen in your house.  Don't forget the cofactors, amazon once again for those, including the vit K.  If you are short of anything apart from high dose vit d3 Holland and Barratt can get you through if you want to hand over an arm and a leg.  Finally Birmingham and Sandwell Hospital do a really good Blood spot test for about Ł30.  Drop me a message if you want to ask anything UK specific, anything else there is only one source, the Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 6th, 2012 at 4:56pm
Rune,

I was waiting for someone to post info on this Danish study...  It turns out there was a similar study, also a meta analysis (analysis of medical database information using statistical methods), that had a similar reversed J- or U-shaped mortality curve with respect to serum concentrations of 25(OH)D. It too suggested a possible upper limit to 25(OH)D concentrations and that higher serum concentrations of 25(OH)D were associated with increased mortality...

I must admit that caught my attention, so I did as you did and started looking further for peer reviews...

Fortunately, I found just such a peer review by Dr. Cannell, M.D., who had already run the trap line on these two studies... He too had trouble accepting the conclusions and here is what he found among other peer reviews:

(1) According to a Cochrane review, vitamin A, as in cod liver oil, is associated with excess mortality. "How do I know they were taking cod liver oil to get higher vitamin D levels?" Because, consumption of cod liver oil in Norway is about 44% by females, and females tended to have the highest 25(OH)D levels in the above Danish study.

(2) There were no less than eight (8) similar meta-studies done in non-Scandinavian, (non-cod liver oil) countries where people with higher serum concentrations of 25(OH)D actually lived longer.

(3) The weight of medical evidence assigned to studies like this is low...  primarily because it's a meta-analysis of medical data collected for many reasons in general and not from a "Controlled" study designed specifically to test any particular hypothesis by controlling other possible variables... 

As these two meta-analysis studies were unable to establish any causal relationship between vitamin D3 dose and mortality, it is entirely possible the increased mortality rates were caused by too much vitamin A...

Finally, to my way of thinking...  Experts in forensic paleontology generally agree the earliest australopithecines (paleo-man), very likely evolved 5 million years ago or shortly thereafter.  Paleo-man also ran around as hunter-gatherers in East Africa wearing essentially nothing... so likely achieved very high 25(OH)D levels due to constant sun exposure even with dark skin. 

Accordingly, if increased serum concentrations of 25(OH)D was responsible for increased mortality as the Danish study concludes...  paleo-man would have gone extinct long before he completed the migration to the Northern latitudes and the geographic area now known as Scandinavia...

To quote Dr. Connell, "I doubt it. I doubt Mother Nature is that dumb."

All this puts me completely at ease and feeling very comfortable having 25(OH)D concentrations much higher than 50 ng/mL...  Mine is likely twice that on a frequent if not constant basis...

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dhjacks on Jun 8th, 2012 at 12:14pm
This vitamin D3 info has me very excited. I'm actually convinced it is going to work for me. 
I'm episodic, and my clusters have stretched out over the past 4 or 5 years to where I have them on for a year, then off for a year.  I'm about 3 1/2 months into my 'on' year and the HA's have been ramping up in frequency.  I read about the D3 regimen 2 nights ago, and ran off to the pharmacy.
No headaches last night, but that could be coincidence as it's only been a couple of days.  I took 50,000 day one and will go 20k / day for a month.
I haven't done a test, so I know that won't help your study as much, but I will keep you updated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jun 8th, 2012 at 3:12pm
Batch,

Being Nordic, I have from-childhood experience with "the wonders" of cod liver oil, or "tran" as it it named in Norway. No tran for the children, no- good family.  Se for you self, this cute Norwegian girl in action
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(Mřlller's Tran being the lead cod liver oil brand)


Excessive vitamin A, may be one factor explaining the Danish findings. But there may be others. We don't know, and neither the study nor the scientists make any speculations on this point.  It is a scientific finding, and a firm one due to the enormous amount of subjects.  The numbers state that  there is a significant higher mortality and a less significant higher mortality below and above 50. As of cases the scientist are careful not to draw conclusions.

And wisely. An elder person I know, smoking heavily and fond of red wine, spend a fortune on a variety of vitamins, minerals and other good-for-you products.  I assume her 25(OH)D level is well beyond the average. I suspect her contribution to the average mortality rate will be negative, but I won't blame it on vitamin D. For all I know, it may be "excess" vitamin D that keep her going. The point being - the Danish findings says nothing about reasons, the study merely states facts, and among those the most interesting is the explicit higher mortality when 25(OH)D levels are low, and very low.

As for paleo-man. I assume he/she avoided the sun just as experienced as people living in very sunny areas today. Exposed of sun, surely, but not a sunbather.

Personally I find the Danish project very interesting as there is a lot of scientists working on it, and with many different perspectives. The study in question is one of many others.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cremar on Jun 8th, 2012 at 7:06pm
Hi again Batch,

Well I've waited a week and still not feeling any better so I guess I'm ready to ramp up to 20,000IU.  Before I do I thought I should mention that I'm starting to wonder if I have something called hemicrania continua.  I have headaches on one side of the head but they are dull and it seems that I never have any time where I'm completely pain free.  I was on Indomethecin for years and it worked great (another indicator that I have hemicrania) but now it has decreased my kidney function and the doctors want me off it.  So I'm back to having headaches.  Anyways, do you think I should continue with the Vitamin D3 therapy?  It can't hurt to try right?  Thanks!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Jun 8th, 2012 at 7:43pm
cremar,

Sorry - I don't know if you suffer from hemicrania continua or CH, or some lesser kown face of Mr. Cluster. Your description doesn't match anything I have experienced. Hopefully Batch' regime will help.  As long as not over-done I can't think of any common reason not try and keep trying. It has a variety of good effects!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jun 9th, 2012 at 5:23am
HI Marc
Reading through the posts again another thought comes to mind.  Batch quotes the graph and studies where the suitable levels of 25(OH)D srum levels need to be above 150 nmol/L.  I am currently waiting on my latest test as my pain begins to diminish to virtually nothing this time ( :D).  Just be aware that when you do the test from Birmingham and Sandwell, (link below) it will come back as normal if above 50 nmol/L .  My last one from them was 153nmol/l, three weeks ago.  So look at the studies on here and look at the comments of Batch as I had a bit of a wobbly moment when the good old NHS was telling me that my 25(OH) D serum levels were well above adequate and the weight of evidence on here told me I still needed to push it further. I have continued to push it further and now hoping to finally go PF after a false moment of hope 2 weeks ago.  Dont forget the co-factors though!

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Kind regards

Ian ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jun 12th, 2012 at 1:29pm
[size=14][/size] Hi Batch

Finally had two pain free nights, also got the results back of the 25 OH(D) serum test, 193 nmol/l.  I took the test about a week ago. On the 5 may my level was 153nmol/l, so an increase of 40nmol/l on 20,000 iu per day and 50,000 loading once per week across 4 weeks. Will check on the graph to see where that puts me in terms of absorption.

Is it not a wonderful feeling when you wake on the first morning for some time without staring down the beast!

Keep safe

Ian :D :D :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 13th, 2012 at 1:58pm
Hey Ian,

Outstanding news!!!  It is a wonderful feeling...

153 nmol/L (61 ng/mL) appears to be your lower serum 25(OH)D concentration threshold to remain CH PF...  This is consistent with 25(OH)D data provided by other CH'ers who have gone pain free on this regimen.

The task now is to find the maintenance dose of vitamin D3 that keeps you at or above 153 nmol/L.  This shouldn't be too difficult.  Give yourself another week at your present vitamin D3 intake then drop the loading lose for a few weeks to see what happens...  I suspect you'll remain PF.  Stay at that level for a month then test for 25(OH)D again.

If you're close to the average 25(OH)D response curves developed by Dr. Heany, your 25(OH)D serum concentration should be around 250 nmol/L, (100 ng/mL).  This serum concentration of 25(OH)D is still well below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 500 nmol/L, (200 ng/mL), so should be very safe.

At that point you should be able to safely drop back to 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 without any fear of a CH relapse.

I bounce between 10,000 and 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 but keep the rest of the regimen stable per the following updates to the basic regimen:

The updated suggested regimen includes:

10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 (Add more as needed)
  2,000 mg/day Omega 3 Fish Oil
     500 mg/day Calcium (calcium citrate preferred)

In order to receive the most health benefit from increased levels of vitamin D, the proper cofactors must be present in the body. Vitamin D has many cofactors, but the ones listed below are the most important. Magnesium should be considered one of the most important cofactors of all, but vitamin A is also a strong contender for that title as long as you don't exceed the RDA.  Too much vitamin A can cause real problems...

   •      Magnesium   400 mg/day  (liquid softgels,
          magnesium citrate or magnesium gluconate
          preferred)

   •      Vitamin K2    125 mcg/day

   •      Vitamin A*     900 mcg (3,000 IU) for men and
                             700 mcg (2,333 IU) for women

   •      Zinc               10 mg/day

   •      Boron              1 mg/day


* Vitamin A can be difficult to find as a single supplement and it's possible to get too much from cod liver oil.  Accordingly, it's prudent to meet your vitamin A needs with a carrot a day, or a serving of spinach or squash as they also contain beta carotene, a vitamin A precursor. 

You can also meet your vitamin A needs with a serving of chicken or beef liver a week.  If all that's too difficult, a single Centrum Silver multivitamin tablet has the RDA for vitamin A at the top of the list.

The rationale for taking vitamin A (retinol), stems from several studies over the last few years that found the final stage of vitamin D3 metabolism from 25(OH)D3 to 1,25(OH)2D3 also takes place in all the body's cells and not just the kidneys...

As this final stage of vitamin D3 metabolism takes place in all cells: heart, skeletal muscles, bone, skin, brain, nerve, and the list goes on, I'm beginning to suspect it's this mode of vitamin D3 metabolism that's responsible for its prophylactic effect on cluster headache..

This mode of vitamin D3 metabolism takes place as long as serum 25(OH)D and vitamin A are present in sufficient concentrations.

You can read about the vitamin D3 cofactors at the following link: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

There's also a fantastic video of Dr. Heaney explaining the "autocrine" mode of vitamin D3 metabolism in a presentation titled "Vitamin D: Nutrient, Not A Drug" at the following link.  If you're not a fan of taking vitamin D3 and the above regimen of vitamins, minerals and micronutrients for a longer life... this video will give you second thoughts...

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Finally, in response to a question about how vitamin D3 can have so many health benefits if serum 25(OH)D is > 30 ng/mL, (75 nmol/L), Dr William Grant has a paper explaining that every cell in the body has vitamin D receptors, and when activated by 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, (calcitriol), the active metabolite and hormonal form of vitamin D3 and vitamin A, can affect the expression of about 1000 different genes.

To back that up, a 12 April, 2012 Level-1 RCT by Wagner et all, titled "Double-blind randomized clinical trial of vitamin D3 showing effects on tissue calcitriol levels, gene expression and proliferation immunohistochemistry in prostate cancer," concluded that higher oral vitamin D doses produce higher levels of calcitriol within prostate tissue, and that higher prostate calcitriol relates to lower androgen receptor mRNA, higher miRNA signalling, and diminished expression of the proliferation marker Ki67 in prostate cancer.

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Sorry for the long-winded response, but I think this information is starting to connect the dots for us cluster headache sufferers...

Take care and thanks again for the great news.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jun 13th, 2012 at 5:24pm
[size=16][/size]

Hi Batch

Please don't apologise for your long responses, as a Vice Principal now in an English High School I am always telling the children we learn from everywhere.  You have truly helped me come to terms with this and begin to understand what is happening to me and my CH friends.  Your knowledge fascinates me, so please keep posting, the mixture of advice and fact is so interesting.

Take care

Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AppleNutClusters on Jun 14th, 2012 at 12:56pm
Yes, I'd have to second Ian on the "no need for apologies". Also your emails have encouraged me to keep going with the regimen even though it hasn't kicked in for me yet. I will say, though, that this thread is a massive undertaking to tackle for a CHer in the throes of a cycle. I have enough web skills and resources to put together some sort of summary page with graphics, sections, links to places to get the vitamins, etc. (I work for an Apple retail store and we are given 2 hours a week to work on projects like this for our own development.) So if anyone's interested, let me know.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 15th, 2012 at 10:25pm
Ian, Jax,

I've updated and bumped the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen and Survey post...  It should answer the issue of where to find most of what new and old CH'ers need to know about this regimen in one post... 

Take a look and tell me what you think...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AppleNutClusters on Jun 15th, 2012 at 11:36pm
Okay yeah, I hadn't really been following the other thread you mentioned.  Yes, it's much easier to follow than this one.  To me, it would make sense to have the regimen posted in one place, keeping the comments to a minimum, and have the 123 days thread as a forum for discussion.  But it looks like that's what we have now, and I just missed it.  Good work, Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Jun 16th, 2012 at 2:04am
Batch,

The latest sitrep from me.  Still not PF, although after looking at my last test results again I realized I'm still not high enough at 131, so I have upped my daily intake to 25,000 a day  for the last week.  I'm down to heavy shadows about 3 to 4 times a day with a bad break through about every 3rd day.  We're making progress!

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jun 21st, 2012 at 8:28am
FYI - just chiming in- I have started this (D3) regimen today.  Stay tuned for updates.  I started yesterday, and I have already missed my VERY regular morning CH in this cycle - but I'm pretty sure it might just be the prednisone I've been on FINALLY working - although I've been on decreasing doseages for more than 2 weeks and today ist he first day I've not had a headache.  SO- who knows.

10,000 iu D3
2,000 Omega
500mg Magnesium
....
Updates to follow!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jun 25th, 2012 at 7:01am
So.. on this for day 5, nothing yet, in fact headaches increasing in frequency and intensity.  Strill trying to get prednisone dosage/verapamil right.  another doc appt. soon.  Hoping d3 works in another few.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 25th, 2012 at 12:37pm
Joshua, Jerry,

Thanks for the feedback...  Make sure you're getting the RDA for vitamin A each day.  We're beginning to think the prophylactic effect vitamin D3 has on cluster headache involves the autocrine mode of vitamin D3 metabolism that takes place outside the kidneys in the body's cells...  brain and nerve cells included... 

In this case, serum 25(OH)D is metabolized into it's active metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3 within the cells as needed.  All that's required is the serum level of 25(OH)D needs to be high enough >60 ng/mL and retinol, (vitamin A), needs to be present at the RDA...  ~ 900 mcg/day, (3500 IU/day).  I take a single Centrum Silver multi-vitamin tablet just to make sure.

Joshua, You'll have a better idea how long it will take to respond to this regimen once you have the results back from your lab test for 25(OH)D.  The lower the serum concentration of 25(OH)D, the longer it takes to go pain free.

Thanks again for the updates...  Hang in there and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by zetner on Jun 25th, 2012 at 3:25pm
Hi!!
I am a new member and was reading about the D3 regimen. Is one supposed to take it all at once or spread out over the day? Also, what is the best time time take it? My attacks usually start about 9 pm.

Thanks--
Zetner

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 25th, 2012 at 10:04pm
Hey Zetner,

Welcome aboard.  You can take the entire regimen all at once and any time of the day.  Having said that, it may prove slightly more effective if taken a couple hours prior to your first attack of the day/night. 

The complete regimen, instructions for use and dosing strategy can be found at the following link here at CH.com.

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Take care and please keep us posted on your progress with this regimen.  We need the feedback.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by zetner on Jun 25th, 2012 at 10:33pm
Batch--

Thanks for the link. Will let you know how it pans out.

Zetner

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Judge_Smails on Jun 26th, 2012 at 6:17pm
This is very unscientific, I haven't gotten any of the test that Batch suggested but here goes:

My cycle should have started in May.  In anticipation of my cycle I started taking the following daily in early April: 12,000mg Vit D3, 500mg Magnesium, multi B vit, and 2000mg Flaxseed (vegetarian alternative for Omegas).

It's now almost July and my cycle still hasn't started!  Again, I know that this is anecdotal, and I'm not going to say there is a cause and effect yet, but at least I have reason to be hopeful.

So far so good!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jun 26th, 2012 at 6:39pm
Judge - Good on ya! It always brings joy in clusterville when this kind of news is shared.

Just one minor correction: I think you meant 12,000 i.u.'s (international units) as opposed to 12,000mg (which would result in immediate toxic shock or death).

For example, with vitamin D3, one thousand micrograms (1,000 µg or 1mg) = 40,000 i.u.

So if you took 12,000 milligrams (mg) of vitamin D3, you would be taking 480 million i.u. (480,000,000 i.u.).

If you did that, I'm betting you would be wishing you hadn't. But only for a little while. ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Judge_Smails on Jun 26th, 2012 at 8:16pm
You're right Brew, that's what I get for trying to post and feed 2 kids dinner at the same time  :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by RichardN on Jun 30th, 2012 at 10:50pm
HI Batch

  Got the results from my serum test . . . . .  69.0  ng/mL.

  Still PF and do have more energy/stamina  . . . a very welcome  addition to the PF time I've enjoyed since mid-November.

  I use 10,000 IU D3 daily and that seems to be doing the trick for me (and of course the Cal Citrate w/mag, Omega 3 fish oil and zinc.

  Be Safe,    PFDANs

    Richard

. . . . and one of my favorite quotes from 45 years ago, . . . . "Never lose thy airspeed lest the ground rise up and smite thee"

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 1st, 2012 at 4:49pm
Hey Richard,

Thank you for the wonderful update.  Thanks also for the lab test data on your 25(OH)D serum concentration as it clearly serves to strengthen our findings that the optimum range for CH'ers to remain CH pain free is 60 to 110 ng/mL, (150 to 275 nmol/L).

Thanks again,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 7th, 2012 at 7:25am
Ok - so began D3 on 6/21.  I've also been on Predinsone to try to get some relief from a chronic cycle that stopped responding to Verap. (has been working for over 2 yrs with no other drugs.)
.
I take 20-30,000 ius of D3 per day with a 50,000iu loading dose Mondays (since 6/21).  I also take the Omega, the Magnesium and will now also start taking a multi vitamin. As I taper down I'm getting hit about once a day so far with shadows on and off.  Not sure how effective D3 is or if I just need more time higher dose? 
.
I haven't had a chance to get a test yet and they don't ship those tests to NY state for some reason.
.
Neuro on the 12th -- to evaluate either increased verap or addition of maybe lithium.
.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jul 7th, 2012 at 1:26pm
[size=20][/size]Hi Batch

Just checking in, have been pain free for nearly a month now, going to test tomorrow.  Am really thinking hard about the nightmare summer we are having here, i.e no sunshine at all.  I think colleagues and people around me think I am nuts always trying to persuade them to take some D3.  Be interesting to see if we go the whole summer without significant sunshine how many UK CHers suffer more than normal.

Kind regards

Ian ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 7th, 2012 at 2:58pm

Quote:
Am really thinking hard about the nightmare summer we are having here, i.e no sunshine at all.

It's all we've BEEN getting here in the Midwestern US. We're about a week away from little to no yield in the fall from the harvest. If we don't get rain in the next week (and there's none forecast for the area I'm in), the corn crop is done.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 9th, 2012 at 7:18am
Update:
6/21 - started D3 - begin tapering off prednisone

Today - 20mg pred/480mg verapamil

I've been PF for three solid days - something that had been impossible pre-predisone and also pre-D3.

Historically after I pass the 40mg on the taper down my CHs come back, but they haven't - I'm chalking it up to D3.
.
Thanks to BATCH for his continued support and helpful advice.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 9th, 2012 at 2:44pm
Hey Joshua,

Thank you for the wonderful update.  This is the kind of feedback we like to hear.  The important thing now is to stay on this regimen at the present vitamin D3 dose for at least another two weeks. You still have CH... but YOU are in control...

After that, you should be able to drop back to 10,000 IU/day of vitamin D3 without any worry of a relapse.  That will be your normal maintenance dose. 

I've been taking the complete regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for nearly two years...  so has my wife.  The only difference is she takes 15,000 IU/day.  As a side note, neither of us has had a cold or flu since we started this regimen... 

If you skip or miss a daily dose, you'll know soon enough...  even more so in the first few weeks after going pain free because you'll burn through your small reserve of 25(OH)D and the beast will come a knocking. 

As soon as you realize you missed the daily regimen take it all as soon as possible.  If you missed taking the complete regimen for 24 hours, take the normal dose of everything for the new day and just the vitamin D3 for the day you missed.

Without a lab test for your 25(OH)D we won't know for sure, but two weeks from start of regimen to the first full pain free day is about average for this regimen with a starting serum concentration of 20 ng/mL.  That also assumes your present 25(OH)D level is somewhere North of 60 ng/mL.

Try to get this lab test so you'll know for sure the 25(OH)D level that keeps you pain free.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 9th, 2012 at 2:52pm
Have you actually gone OFF any prescription meds on this plan?  Apologies if it's in your previous posts.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 9th, 2012 at 2:59pm
Ian,

Welcome to the club...  Trying to convince folks to take some vitamin D3...  even 5,000 IU/day is a thankless task for too many...   It's amazing how many CH'ers apparently prefer to ignore the mounting evidence pointing to the health benefits of vitamin D3 and its capacity to prevent cluster headaches...

Fortunately there are folks like you and Joshua who said...  "Why not..." and have discovered the wonderful benefits of this supplement.  That makes it all worth while...

Take care and persevere... One "Holy Cow" or "Woo Hoo" out of ten tries is a better than average response...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by soberman on Jul 9th, 2012 at 8:42pm
Batch, It's been 9 days since I started the D3. In these days, I have had a few attacks. However, when I started the regimen I was in the middle of a 9 day non stop pain fest. I am one of those who experienced immediate relief. No, the attacks aren't gone, but they're WAY better. And this in only 9 days. I'm only sorry I didn't start sooner. Thanks for the info Brother. I'm in the process of building my own o2 system. I'll keep you posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by diefaster on Jul 10th, 2012 at 2:04am
Hello, I haven't posted in quite some time.  I'm normally pretty under control; I've been on Verapamil 180mg/2x day, with a Pred taper at the begining of a cycle, and Maxalt MLT as an abortive.  I normally don't have too many problems with this set-up, but on this deployment I have found myself completely out of Verapamil.

I read your post a few weeks ago, and I thought I'd give it a shot--I'm really down to my last hope at this point.  I just got my D3 and Fish Oil in the mail today, so this would be day 1 of the regimen. 

I don't know if anyone will be able to answer, but how long does it usually take to see the effects of this regimen?  I've been getting CH's about 4 times a day for the past couple of weeks, and they're pretty regular at this point.  I literally have to set my schedule around them right now, and I could really use a break.

Any help/advice would be deeply appreciated.  I'm just about at wits end with this cycle.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 10th, 2012 at 2:43am
Hey Diefaster,

Good question, and I know what you're going through.  You've taken the best course of action.

From the data we've collected over the last 20 months, the answer to your question is two weeks to a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  That assumes, without benefit of a lab test for your 25(OH)D serum concentration, that you're vitamin D3 deficient at around 20 ng/mL.

If this assumption is correct, two weeks is the average time to respond to this regimen.  However, some CH'ers respond in 12 to 24 hours while others respond in upwards of a month.  Again, it all depends on your starting serum level of 25(OH)D and the dose of vitamin D3 you take on a daily basis.

Try to get tested for 25(OH)D as soon as possible.  That way you'll have a better idea how long it will take to go pain free.

Give the complete regimen an opportunity to work at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for at least a week, then bump the vitamin D3 dose to 20,000 IU/day with a weekly loading dose of 50,000 IU once a week, but hold the other supplements at the standard dose.  Hold that dosing strategy for three weeks to a month to see what happens.

Take care and hand in there...  This regimen is 75% effective so the odds are you'll have a favorable response shortly.

Soberman, thanks for the update...  I suspect you'll be PF shortly.  Hang in there with this regimen and keep the faith...  The odds are in your favor.  Shoot me a PM with your email address and I'll send you the latest goodies on oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Evan O on Jul 10th, 2012 at 7:46pm
diefaster,

I can just add some personal experience as you await likely positive results with this regimen.

I was extremely desperate as well, and attempted this regimen in December 2011. In December, my 25(OH)D level was at 30 ng/ml. I started taking 10,000 iu daily, along with the recommended dosages of magnesium and calcium. For about 5 months, I didn't notice any improvement. Within that period, I had not attempted a weekly loading dose, nor had I checked my D3 level throughout the process.

Without giving up, I read Batch's posts religiously and with his feedback I continued his regimen. I went to an endocrinologist to check my 25 (OH)D level [along with a complete lab workup], and despite the fact that she refused to give me any D3 with a 25 (OH)D in excess of 30 ng/ml, I continued the regimen until I found myself pain free as of June 2012.

In June, I had another lab test after communicating with Batch, and learned that I was at 114 ng/ml. [While a typical human may not be D3 deficient with a 25 (OH)D level of 30 ng/ml, it has been suggested by Batch and others who have found success with this regimen, that we should be above 60 ng/ml at minimum].

Coincedence that I've been pain free since?

Good luck and hope you stick with it!

-Evan

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 10th, 2012 at 8:52pm

Quote:
...she refused to give me any D3 with a 25 (OH)D in excess of 30 ng/ml...

Wow. She sounds like a real rocket scientist.

A rocket scientist with an open mind.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Jul 11th, 2012 at 10:55am
diefaster,

Just to add my own experience w/ D3 to the mix, I also had a pretty regular CH schedule going when I started the D3 regimen. That schedule was thrown off the first few days...I did begin to experience some relief after about 3 days.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Evan O on Jul 11th, 2012 at 4:37pm
"Wow. She sounds like a real rocket scientist."

In her opinion, it would be "irresponsible" of her to give me D3 as I wasn't considered deficient. It's scary that without reading posts on this site, I would've taken her word for it.

I've met a few other rocket scientists these past couple of years.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SethG on Jul 11th, 2012 at 5:01pm
Hello All,

This site is great, I have learned so much, thank you everyone for your posts!!  I am new here and have been reading lots of posts and decided to register.  I have been getting CH for 3 years.  I was put on Verapromil and Pretnizone.

I have a question about the D3, Fish Oil and Calcium.  I like the idea of a natural way to treat this.  So, I need to take 10,000 IU of D3, 2,000 mg of omega 3 fish oil and 500 mg of calcium citrate.  Is that all I need to take?  What's the deal with the magnesium, vitamin K2, Vitamin A, Zinc and Boron?  Do I need to take them a s well?

My neuro said I have CL and put me on Verapramil and the Pretnizone tapper off thing and it worked but I want to try this natural way.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SethG on Jul 11th, 2012 at 8:17pm
Hello again....I made a typo in my last post, meant to write my neuro diagnosed me with CH not CL.

Thanks again for all the info on CH it's nice to know there is a place like this.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by B.Baer on Jul 11th, 2012 at 8:56pm
Sorry for my delay in response. I will have been totally pain free for exactly 4 weeks, one month, tomorrow.

Since I began the regime, I had some success slowly working my way up to 20,000 IU's per day with co-factors. I started too low and wasted too much time at low level doseage. Once I hit 20,000 IU's per day, I noticed a reduction in frequency and pain level.

I then read the 50,000 IU loading dose once a week and 20,000 the rest of the week. Bingo... Four weeks ago they ended.

My wife and I have discussed this at length and we both have come to the conclusion it is a direct result of the D-3 and co-factors.

I will level with you, in the early stages of the regime, I started with 5,000 IU's per day, with negligible results.

Once I got up to 20,000 IU's in conjuction with the co-factors I noticed an appreciable change in the frequency and level of pain.

I also took some liberty with the co-factors lowering and at one point discontinuation of one at a time and found the same results, increase in frequency and intensity but not as intense as just altering the D-3 intake and leaving the co-factors the same.

I admit, I have not had my blood levels checked, nor did I write down each time I changed something in the regime. I wish now that I had charted this and lament the fact I did not. I do know it made a difference and this can be attested to by my wife.

When I took the co-factors, the 50,000 IU loading dose and 20,000 IU's the rest of the week, the cycle stopped.

I will soon be dropping back to 10,000 IU's per day with the co-factors and see if I get any change.

Notes: I still can't drink a beer, it does not bring on a full blown attack, but it will let me know it's there. The aforementioned fact, tells me that I am still in cycle, just not experiencing the effects.

I'll be going to my GP soon for a check up, unrelated to CH, and will ask him if he can schedule the blood work, as I personally would like to know the current levels.

Again, I apologize... one for rambling and two for not having charted this more accurately, but life gets in the way... best laid plans etc.  :-[

In roughly 20 years of being episodic, this is the shortest and least painful cycle I've ever had. Direct result of the D-3 or morphing of the Beast? Due to the changes in the cycle when I altered the co-factors and D-3 intake, I'll have to put my money on the D-3.

Hardly scientific, but I could not be more pleased with the results. I'm glad I played around with the dosage as it allowed me to experiment and see for myself if it made a difference.

NO, I repeat...NO side effects whatsoever. My wife and I counted over 14+ script meds. not counting natural remedies tried over the past 20 years. NOTHING has worked as quickly or with less side effects. I count this experience as a HUGE win.

Years ago, the Oxygen and now this... THANK YOU BATCH!!! :) Should I ever be of assistance, I am at your service sir.

All the best,

Baer

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dhjacks on Jul 12th, 2012 at 12:25pm
I posted a bit over a month ago that I was in the midst of a rotten cycle.  My cycles are on/off longer than most....nearly a year.  I began the regimen at 20k/day and only in the past few days lowered to 15k/day.  My HA's began to taper after about 2 weeks and for the past 2 weeks I've gotten approximately 1 HA every 2 days.  The HA's are mild and knocked out with the first dose of oxygen. 
I have not gotten my bloodwork done, so I don't think I'm eligible to fill out the survey.
I am absolutely a believer in this D3 regimen.  Finally a solution to making these cycles more bearable.  Thank you Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 12th, 2012 at 8:06pm
DVB, Evan O, B.Baer, DH,

Thank you all for the wonderful updates, feedback and testimony to the effectiveness of the anti-inflammatory regimen as a CH preventative.  It's comments like yours that provide an incentive to so many undecided CH'ers to give this regimen a try.

It's significant to note that the raw efficacy of this regimen is on the climb and is now pushing 80% since more CH'ers started using the vitamin D3 dosing strategy of 20,000 IU/day with a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week discussed in some of my earlier posts.

Seth, the short answer to your question is yes, the cofactors including: magnesium, zinc, boron, vitamin K2 and vitamin A are all essential parts of this regimen.  They aid in the metabolism of vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D3 and on to its active metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3 that appears to be responsible for preventing our CH.

You can find a good explanation of the vitamin D3 cofactors at the following link:

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You'll see after reading this link that most of the cofactors are available in a well balanced diet...  The problem is, we don't always eat a well balanced diet... so it's best to play the odds in your favor and take the cofactors.

Vitamin A is a late comer to this regimen.  Watch the video of Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D. give a fascinating and compelling presentation titled "Vitamin D: Nutrient, Not a Drug" at the following link.   He explains how and why vitamin A has become another essential part of this regimen:

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Dr. Heaney also brings up the point that there have been over 31 Level A rated RCTs with strong Evidence-based medicine (EBM), dealing with the benefits of vitamin D3 therapy.  True, none of these RCTs were focused on cluster headache, but I think we're providing ample empirical proof of vitamin D3's efficacy as a cluster headache preventative. 

Moreover, we're proving that vitamin D3 doses of 20,000 IU/day are very safe.  There is also ample evidence this regimen can be safely started while also taking physician prescribed cluster headache preventatives like verapamil.

That said... we're still finding too many primary care physicians and neurologists who get their knickers in a wad over sustained doses of vitamin D3 at 10,000 to 20,000 IU/day and serum concentrations 25(OH)D over 30 ng/mL.

For the CH'ers new to this regimen or wanting to start it...  be prepared for push-back from your PCP or neurologist...  Print out the attached study by Garland et al, take it along to your next appointment, and be prepared to discuss it in detail if you do get any push-back.

Please don't be afraid to challenge your PCP or neurologist on this topic... We CH'ers will all come across a PCP or neurologist who needs educating on our disorder and how best to treat it. 

Unfortunately, when it comes to continuing medical education (CME), a requirement to maintain a license to practice medicine in most states, CME on the benefits of vitamin D3 screening and therapy are limited to courses provided by the American Society for Nutrition, CME Program.

Moreover, as most neurologist would sooner attend a Gucci level course of CME on exotic medications proposed as treatments our disorder or the latest studies on the pathophysiology of cluster headaches rather than take a course on the mundane topic of the role of vitamin D3 and nutrition as taught in the American Society for Nutrition, CME Program, it's no wonder most of them are clueless on the topic of vitamin D3.  Most will look at you like you're speaking in tongues when you ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D. 

Accordingly, one of the best charts from the attached study is shown below where over 3,600 people voluntarily took vitamin D3 at various doses and then paid $65 after six months to have their serum concentrations of 25(OH)D measured:

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There are two important things to take away from this chart.  The first is doses of vitamin D3 up to and including 40,000 IU/day do not result in 25(OH)D concentrations high enough to reach the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL.

The second take away is the wide variation in 25(OH)D responses at a given dose of vitamin D3.  As this chart also contains lab test results measured after six months and a year at a given dose, I called the folks at GrassrootsHealth and spoke with one of their MPH statisticians.

She sent the following information on the second lab tests for 25(OH)D, a year after starting a dose of 10,000 IU/day.  25(OH)D concentrations in ng/mL.

             mean      median   min   max    sd
test 2      71          69           20    134    23 

If you use the the 95% confidence band (mean ± 2 X sd, or ±46), these responses fall in a range of 25 to 117 ng/mL.  This is consistent with the data collected in the anti-inflammatory regimen survey.

What this also tells us is a dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 may not be sufficient for some CH'ers to elevate their serum 25(OH)D into the "green zone" 60 to 110 ng/mL where most CH'ers have gone pain free on this regimen.

If you look at the horizontal line I drew on this chart from 60 ng/mL to where it intersects the lower boundary of the 95% confidence band, you'll see it comes down at a vitamin D3 dose of 20,000 IU/day. 

This indicates 95% of CH'ers who take 20,000 IU/day will have serum concentrations of 25(OH)D in a range of 60 ng/mL up to 125 ng/mL and still not reach the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL

Finally, the investigators of this study concluded that: "Universal intake of up to 40,000 IU vitamin D3 per day is unlikely to result in vitamin D toxicity."

So here are the bottom line conclusions you need to be ready to explain to a doubting PCP or neurologist when you ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D...

1.  The odds are high (better than 75%) of a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen with a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH or going pain free like better than 66% of the CH'ers taking this regimen.

2.  There have been no reports of vitamin D3 toxicity in the 18 months since over 200 CH'ers started this regimen at 10,000 to 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

3.  This regimen works for both episodic and chronic CH'ers with an average response time of two weeks, min = 12 hours, max = 1 month.

4.  This regimen can be safely taken with existing standards of care prescription medications for cluster headache.

5.  And finally, at less than 30 cents a day USD, this is the most cost effective cluster headache preventative available to us...

If your PCP or neurologist persists and continues to push back...  ask him or her to please 'splain verapamil side effects and efficacy so you can compare and contrast them with the anti-inflammatory regimen...

Take care and thanks again for the wonderful comments.

V/R, Batch


http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Garland_et_al.pdf (160 KB | 4 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 13th, 2012 at 7:27am
Update.
Am totally off the prednisone.
Have gone back to having 1 headache in the a.m. and 1 in the p.m.
Am on the D3 regimen at 20,000/iu per day. 
.
Question - based on the previous post- should I INCREASE the daily dose?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 13th, 2012 at 12:58pm
Hey Joshua,

You had to come off prednisone anyway...  Are the am and pm hits manageable with oxygen or are they hitting at work or in transit?

The short answer is yes...  I'd give 25,000 IU/day a try for a few days to see what happens then drop back to 20,000 IU/day. 

20,000 IU/day should be sufficient to elevate your 25(OH)D into the green zone (60-110 ng/mL).  However, without results from a 25(OH)D lab test, you're shooting in the dark.

Are you still taking the weekly 50,000 IU loading dose and all the cofactors?   How much magnesium are you taking?

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 13th, 2012 at 1:02pm
I am still doing the 50k loading dose.  Haven't been around o2 when the hits come.  a.m. hit at work.  p.m. hit at home, no 02 yet, it's on the way.
.
I take 500mg of Mg.
I take 2000 mg of Omega
Sometimes I take a multi vitamin, need to get more regular with it.
.
I will go up to 25 or 30k/iu for now.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 13th, 2012 at 1:16pm
Hey Joshua,

Sounds like a plan...  (SLAP).  Oxygen will make a big difference...  Do try to get the lab test for 25(OH)D.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 13th, 2012 at 1:24pm
yeah, i ran out of o2, new M tank on the way.  For some reason NY state won't allow any delivery of the home kit, so have to get to the dr.  doing that next week probably. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by kingaroo on Jul 13th, 2012 at 10:47pm
Hi everyone

I have been checking this site for quite some time now and have decided to start this regimen. I got most of the vitamins today and just need to get the k2, boron, and vit a. I've had CH for 4 years now and feel like ive tried every med possible. hopefully this works for me soon because im in a horrible cycle. I also have a dr appt on wed to get a ppd shot but im gonna see if he will run my blood levels for me also. it gives me hope to read how a lot of people are doing so well with this.

just to make sure i have the right amounts tho:

500mg of Mg
120mcg of K2
10 mg of Zinc
1mg of Boron
900mcg or 3000 IU of Vit A
2000mg of Fish Oil
500mg of Calcium Citrate

and i start with 20,000 IU of D3 a day with a loading dose of 50,000 once a week

Thanks for the post and everything!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 13th, 2012 at 11:24pm
Hey Kingaroo,

Sounds like you're off to a good start.  The only thing I would add is try to get the lab test for 25(OH)D.  Where do you live?

Please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by kingaroo on Jul 14th, 2012 at 8:51am
I'm in Northfield, NJ. It's just outside of Atlantic City

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Evan O on Jul 14th, 2012 at 1:31pm
Batch,

You may have touched on this already, but as you've said the cofactors Vitamin K, magnesium, A, etc have been incorporated to aid in the abitility to metabolize d3 properly.

Are there any known factors (hormones, nutrients, vitamins etc) that have the opposite effect?  Anything in the CH sufferer's diet or daily routine that may have brought about the inability to metabolize D3 at a normal rate?

It's clear that a D3 deficiency can be caused by something as simple by not getting enough sun, but I'm interested to know if our need to be in the therapeutic range of at least 60 ng/ml, [almost double the concentration of the average human] is a result of negative ingestion or just bad luck.

Hope all is well,
Evan

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 14th, 2012 at 2:59pm
Evan,

Good question.  The short answer is we just don't know how many other factors impede or perturb vitamin D3 metabolism to the extent it becomes ineffective as a CH preventative.

So far the anti-inflammatory regimen appears to work very well without too much interference from other medications, minerals or other vitamins taken at normal levels. 

That said, prednisone may limit vitamin D3 effectiveness to some extent, but there are no studies indicating just how much.

The first phase of vitamin D3 metabolism from vitamin D3, (cholecalciferol) to 25(OH)D3 (calcidiol), takes place in the liver.  If serum concentration of 25(OH)D rises with supplemental vitamin D3 in the doses we take, it's likely the liver is functioning properly.

The second phase of vitamin D3 metabolism from calcidiol to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), takes place in the kidneys.  Unfortunately, there's no easy way to determine how effectively the kidneys are metabolizing calcidiol into calcitriol except in overall response like a reduction in the frequency and severity of CH or going pain free.

There are tests like a 24-hour urine collection that check for creatinine clearance that will give a good indication of kidney health.  The creatinine clearance test compares the level of creatinine in urine with the creatinine level in the blood.

Compounding things a little further, it's the 1,25(OH)2D3 that pushes calcium into the blood stream.  If there's insufficient calcium in the gut, 1,25(OH)2D3 pulls it from the bones...  another reason to take at least 500 mg/day calcium with this regimen.

All this is controlled by calcium homeostasis, one of the most powerful regulating mechanisms in the body that maintains serum calcium in a very narrow range.

If the serum calcium concentration is at the upper limit of the normal range, this signals the parathyroids to stop or slow the production of the parathyroid hormone (PTH).  When PTH drops, that signals the kidneys to stop making 1,25,(OH)2D3 and start making 24,25(OH)2D3, an inactive metabolite that's pumped over the side in urine.

If serum calcium is at the low level limit of the normal range, this signals the parathyroids to produce more PTH and that signals the kidneys to make more calcitriol to push more calcium into the blood.

The wild card is the autocrine mode of vitamin D3 metabolism where 25(OH)D3 is metabolized outside the kidneys in body's many different types of cells like our brain and nerve cells.  This is where vitamin A (retinol) comes into play as this mode of vitamin D3 metabolism can't take place unless serum 25(OH)D is high enough and vitamin A is present.

When this happens, 1,25(OH)2D3 enters the cell, triggers a genetic response, where the cell produces what it needs to fix itself.

At this point we don't know which mode of vitamin D3 metabolism is responsible for preventing CH...  I suspect it's a combination of serum concentrations of vitamin D3, 25(OH)D3, 1,25(OH)2D3 and the autocrine mode of vitamin D3 metabolism that takes place in the cells.

Determining the exact cause or causes of an effective response to prevent CH will take detailed RCTs costing several million dollars each...

In the mean time, if a CH'er is having problems controlling CH with the anti-inflammatory regimen and 25(OH)D levels are 60 to 110 ng/mL, the best course of action is to see an endocrinologist for a complete workup.  This will include lab tests for calcium, PTH and related hormones. 

I'm not a doctor so finding a physician trained to recognize proper liver, kidney, thyroid and parathyroid functions is essential.  That's generally an endocrinologist... not a neurologist.

Confusing at best, but I hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Billie on Jul 14th, 2012 at 9:02pm
Went to Wal-Mart and grabbed some vitamin D3 tablets today.  I was going to skip out on the rest of the vitamins suggested, but I see they play an important part; so, going to go grab some of those too.  I am not in cycle yet but am do for one before winter and will start this regimen right away to see what happens. 

One question...  Do any of you taking this regimen have rheumatoid arthritis or any other form of arthritis?  Seeing that it is an anti-inflammatory regimen, I was wondering if this helps with the pain.  I was reading that rheumatoid arthritis could be linked with low vitamin D3 levels but wanted some input from someone with firsthand knowledge.  My father has it, and he refuses to see doctors or take prescription medications.  My younger brother also has it, and if this helps, I will tell them about it. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 15th, 2012 at 2:28am
Hey Billie,

Good move...  An ounce of prevention by starting the anti-inflammatory regimen now could easily prevent your next and any following CH cycles as long as you stay on this regimen...

There are also at least 13 Level A RTCs focused on the benefits of vitamin D3 lowering the incidence of osteoporotic fractures and several surveys linking a vitamin D3 deficiency with a higher incidence of rheumatoid arthritis...

Getting the entire family on this regimen has the potential for a significantly improved quality of life.

Watch the following video of Dr. Robert Heaney for more details...

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Evan O on Jul 17th, 2012 at 12:47am
Batch,

I asked my endocrinologist the same question and you win. I'll have to break open the piggy bank to see if I have enough for a RCT.

Thanks again for your continued feedback on this.

Evan

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 17th, 2012 at 7:40am

D3 Update (started 6/21 during a pred taper)
Off prednisone for ~4 days now

480mg verap
2,000 Omega
50k/iu loading dose, 25k/iu daily dose D3
400mg Mg/1000mg Calcium (combo pill)
.
Getting 1 to 2 headaches daily, and shadows in between, but the past 2 days I've only had 1 headache and minor shadows.  The frequency and intenstity of headaches is far less than it was prior to D3.
.
I have to say the D3 is having some effect.  I have to go the dr. to get my levels tested (this week) --.. more to come next week.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jul 18th, 2012 at 2:59am
I saw this post a while ago and was referred to it again by MikeNZ. The results are very encouraging. I figured why not join in and, seeing as I appear to be in a high cycle, no time like the present. I kicked off yesterday. My daily regimen is as follows

07:00 160mg Verap, 400mg Lithium Carbonate, 5000iu D3, 670mg calcium citrate, 300mg Magnesium and a multi vitamin
13:00 160mg Verap, 5000iu D3
17:00 1mg Ergotomine
19:00 160mg Verap, 400mg Lithium Carbonate
22:00 Melatonin capsule

Also  drinking a lot of lemon tea

Hopefully you guys will see a lot of stuff disapearing off that list over the next few months.

Day 1 - alittle wierd with constant light shadows but no major hit
Day 2 - All good so far.

PF Days to all

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 18th, 2012 at 12:20pm
Hey Wayne,

Welcome to the club.  Another Kiwi...  What a hoot.  I'm confident you'll find this regimen effective enough to come off all the other med's.

Joshua,

Four days...  well five now off prednisone with no major increase in hits is a great sign.  Normally they come back like the hammers of hell when CH'ers come off prednisone.  I suspect you'll be enjoying more PF days and nights with this regimen.  The results of your 25(OH)D labs are important as you appear to be going up past the tipping level concentration where you'll remain PF.

Evan,

Winning is fun... That said, I get more enjoyment out of seeing CH'ers realize the logic of this regimen and enjoying its benefits.

Take care

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jul 19th, 2012 at 1:04am
Thanks Batch, I certainly hope so.

Update:
Day 1 - Clear - some nagging shadows
Day 2 - Clear
Day 3 - got whacked with a kip 7 at 14:00. Very unusual, I haven't had an afternoon hit in a very long time. Not sure if this is a good sign or not, time will tell.

I've often thought that trying to get a hold of these things is like trying to fix a water leak with chewing gum. As soon as you get one part sealed it just starts leaking somewhere else. Almost as if there is a certain amount of pain stored up inside that just has to get out.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 19th, 2012 at 6:58am
Had the D3 home test shipped to my mom in CT.  Will advise results :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 19th, 2012 at 11:14am
Hey Wayne,

That's not a bad start.  Given you appear to be responding, I'd bump the vitamin D3 to 20,000 IU/day with a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week.

When you're completely PF for a couple weeks using this dosing strategy, you can throttle back to just 10,000 IU/day.

Joshua,

Good move...  There's always a way around some of the anal retentive rules some states set up to block inexpensive health care... 

Noli ilegitimus carborundum.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jul 23rd, 2012 at 4:06am
Thanks for the advice Batch, have bumped up to 20k iu/day. Strangely we can only get 1000iu gels here so its like taking a handfull of bad tasting M&M's :). I have cut back a bit on the magnesium after noticing that the Multi vitamin also contains 300mg.

Am pleased to report days 4 to 6 clear, some short lived shadows on Saturday and Sunday, today the head has been as clear as a bell. I am feeling very hopeful.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 23rd, 2012 at 12:38pm
Hey Wayne,

Thanks for the update.  I'm optimistic you'll continue to experience a favorable response to this regimen.  Keep it up and your head will be as clear as the trout filled lakes and streams of New Zealand...

I know 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 sounds like a lot, but it really isn't.  Your skin can make that much endogenous vitamin D3 with as little as 20 minutes exposure to the UV-B in summer mid-day sunshine if clad in a bathing suit with no sun block.

You might check the Internet for available sources of the 5,000 IU vitamin D3 liquid softgel capsules.

Try to see your PCP or neurologist to get the lab test for 25(OH)D.  Knowing the serum concentration of 25(OH)D that enables you to remain pain free of cluster headache is essential.  In addition, making your physician part of this process can only help raise awareness of the highly probable link between cluster headache and a vitamin D3 deficiency.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dhjacks on Jul 24th, 2012 at 1:24pm
Update.
No headaches in 12 days.  I should be in the middle of a cycle.  30 days at 20,000/day followed by a couple of weeks at 10,000/day.  I am so thankful.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 24th, 2012 at 3:39pm
DH,

Outstanding news!  Thanks for the feedback. 

Judging by the dashed 25(OH)D response curve for a vitamin D3 dose of 20,000 IU/day and assuming a starting 25(OH)D serum concentration of around 22 ng/mL, your response to vitamin D3 and going PF into the "green zone" of 60 to 110 ng/mL after 18 days from start of regimen is right on track...

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Try to see your PCP or neurologist for a lab test for 25(OH)D to confirm your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite. If you can swing it, ask for lab tests for calcium and PTH (parathyroid hormone).  Both should be "normal."

You should be able to throttle back on the vitamin D3 to 10,000 or 15,000 IU/day after a couple weeks without any fear of a relapse.  As you can see from the chart above, no matter what dose of vitamin D3 you take, they all reach an equilibrium and stabilize after five to six months of daily intake.

Try to get a second lab test for 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH three months after the first test just to confirm you're in the right ball park for the concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite.

I'm a chronic CH'er and after nearly two years on this regimen, I've found 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 buys me enough 25(OH)D reserves to last 36 to 48 hours without any vitamin D3 intake before I start feeling symptoms of an approaching CH.  15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 buys me a good week of 25(OH)D reserves.

The good news is you now have an effective CH preventative...  The other news is you likely still have this disorder.  If you want to keep the beast away and remain PF, you'll need to continue taking a maintenance dose of 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  That way your "next" CH cycle will be a non-event...  You'll remain PF.

When you have the time, please take the anti-inflammatory regimen survey at the following link:

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The more evidence we can gather on the effectiveness of this regimen, the easier it will be to convince neurologists that conducting an RCT of this method of preventing CH is a must do...

Take care, thanks again for the feedback and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jul 25th, 2012 at 11:00pm
Thanks again for the advice Batch, I will try to get the serum concentration level checked but I think its going to be a lengthy road.
Cannot get any gels learger than 1000iu in NZ, they're controlled and only available through a Dr's prescription - no idea why.
More good news, cut the melatonin dose out and days 7 and 8 still clear :) :) :), I reckon I'll give it another 5 days and if I'm still clear then cut the Ergotomine.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 26th, 2012 at 7:27am
Finally went to the doc today to get D3 levels-- anxiously awaiting results.  Still holding steady at 2 HA's a day on 25k/iu and the rest of the regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Freddyz on Jul 26th, 2012 at 8:26am
I just joined CH two days ago and dvb recommended I check out this thread.  It looked so promising that I stopped on the way home from work and picked up the D3 and Omega 3 and took my first dose as soon as I got home.   It didn’t have an effect on my CH last night (had 2) but I wasn’t expecting immediate results.  The reason I’m posting this is that I was wondering if it gave anyone else horrendous gas.  At first it just sent my wife and kids running from the room (I’m thinking, added benefit  :)) but when the dog got up and left I got concerned.  So I took another dose this morning and if I get the same results my coworkers may kick my out of the office.  I’m wondering if it matters when I take my daily dose?  I’d prefer to take it in the evening so I can torture my family instead of being known as Sir Farts Alot around the office.  Also, do you think splitting up the dose (1/3 with each meal) could reduce the problem and if so is it still effective to take it that way. 

Thanks Fred

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Jul 26th, 2012 at 10:59am
Hey Freddy,

   Glad you decided to give this a try...I can only speak from my experiences, but I did not have any problems with gas (maybe a response to the Omega3? *Edit* - I just re-read your other post and see that your quitting smoking. I did experience horrific gas for a week or so when quitting - also I was unsuccessful but may give the gum a try as you are. Sorry if we're stinking up the thread here.) */Edit*. Reading various topics around here you'll notice we all react differently to things (what works for one, doesn't work for all / what effects one person one way may have the opposite effect for others :D). It's all part of the fun.

The first few days on the regimen for me, my cycle changed with the CHs becomming more frequent, but less intense, and shorter in duration (could've set my watch to it before that).

As far as splitting the doses, I started doing that when I was having shaddows regularly shortly before taking my dose of the D3 and co-factors for the day. It seemed to work. I've since just upped the D3 dose and began taking them all at once again (just seems easier to me to take 'em once a day and be done with it). That seems to work too.


Stick with it and give a fair chance and I think you'll be happy with the results. Batch should be along shortly with more difinitive answers (that man knows his stuff).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 26th, 2012 at 3:14pm
Hey Wayne,

Thanks for the update...  Your results so far appear to be a good indication you'll be able to come off all the other Rx med's in jig time...  Be sure to keep your PCP/neurologist in the loop.

I've done some checking and it appears your Ministry of Health there in New Zealand is slowly coming out of the stone age with respect to how much vitamin D3 people need. More importantly, they've recognized the fact that too many of your countrymen are deficient in this very essential nutrient. 

That said, like government bureaucrats here in the US and elsewhere in Western societies, they want to control how much of a good thing you get...  hence the limit on strength of vitamin D3 softgels at 1,000 IU.

The task now is to try to find an Integrative physician there in your area who understands the benefits of vitamin D3 and who will prescribe it in higher concentrations.   I sent you an email with some possible solutions in finding such a physician.

I also checked the net and it appears you can get lab tests for 25(OH)D at several medical labs there in Christchurch for $65... no Rx required.... That's about what it costs here in the US.


Freddy,

Thanks for chiming in... and good move on starting the anti-inflammatory regimen.  I must say your post has had me laughing all morning... 

If you understand the Carbon Credit scam...  there must be a way of capitalizing on your prodigious production of gas...  It would give new meaning to the notion of passing gas for fun and profit.

Dvb was spot on with his suggestion it might be the Omega 3 Fish oil causing this problem... although I'm not sure about the smoking bit...

We all have colonies of beneficial bacteria working in our GI tracts...  Some of them are easily perturbed by a change in diet and react accordingly to let you know...

Accordingly, I suspect Omega 3 Fish Oil is the culprit triggering the miasmic room-clearing emissions... ::)

There's a simple way to find out...  Stop the Omega 3 Fish Oil for a couple days to see if the atmosphere clears... 

If it does, try taking one Omega 3 soft gel every other day for a while to let your GI tract adjust by growing more Omega 3 Fish Oil friendly bacteria...

Don't forget the cofactors.  See the following link for more details:

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If you buy the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate at Costco, you get the right ratio of magnesium, zinc and boron as these cofactors are formulated into two of these tablets.  If you can't get to Costco, Citracal Plus™ Bone Density Builder has a similar formulation and this supplement is available at most supermarkets.

I take Centrum Silver for the vitamin A as a single tablet contains the RDA for this vitamin.  There are also calcium chews with vitamin K.

Make sure you see your PCP or neurologist for the lab test for 25(OH)D.  Knowing your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite will give you a better idea how long it's going to take for a favorable response.

Doing this is important for a couple reasons...  The first is I'm not a doctor... and it's always a good idea to keep your PCP or neurologist involved... if for no other reason than to alert them to the growing body of empirical evidence that suggests cluster headache is likely due to a vitamin D3 deficiency... and that the cessation of CH attacks correlates directly with a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 to 110 ng/mL, (150 to 275 nmol/L).

The online survey of CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen and my rough tally of posts here here in this thread at CH.com are consistent...  75% of the CH'ers who start this regimen experience a significant (>80%) reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH in an average of 10 days to two weeks...  some in as little as 24 hours and others as long as a month... 

An efficacy response this high significantly greater than the highest possible placebo effect for cluster headache medications...  so statistically...  this is a real deal...

Moreover, greater than 60% of the CH'ers who start this regimen are pain free by the end of the third week... and remain that way while continuing to take it.

Accordingly, if there's no response to this regimen after a week, I would up the intake of vitamin D3 to 20,000 IU/day with a weekly loading dose of 50,000 IU.  Several CH'ers have found this dosing strategy gets them into the "green zone," a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 to 110 ng/mL, where they go pain free a little faster than the average response time at a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day.

If you run into any resistance in obtaining this lab test from your PCP or neurologist, you can order the lab test for 25(OH)D for $65 from ZRT Labs at the following link.  No Rx required:

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You can also call them at 866.600.1636.  They even have an online DIY video at the above link that illustrates how to do the blood spot test at home.

I keep two of the ZRT vitamin D blood spot test kits on hand at all times...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:16pm
Hi Batch

Now been pain free for 2 months ish.  Got the second d3 serum test back, I seem to be running pain free at 177 nmol/L.  Slightly confusing as I went pain free at 193.  Anyhow weather in the uk now good, so getting plenty of natural d3 as well as the recommended maintenance dose.  Guess the next stage is to test bi monthly to try and avert the next batch.  That should be next Mar apr time if things go as in previous years. 

Be persistent guys with the regimen, it has so many benefits.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 26th, 2012 at 8:29pm
Hey Ian,

Thanks for the update...  You're comfortably in the "green zone" at your present serum concentration of 25(OH)D. 

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As long as you keep your 24(OH)D in the green zone, I'm confident you'll sail pain free through the next Mar-April time frame.

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Freddyz on Jul 27th, 2012 at 6:40am
Thanks Batch.  Good timing as I have an appointment with my PCP this morning.  I've printed your response and will be bringing it with.  I need to figure something out.  Had one of my worst CHs ever last night.  3 hrs and I'd have to put it on a 9 on the kip scale.  first time I ever considered having my wife drive me to the emergency room.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 27th, 2012 at 7:41am
Just confirming the additional cofactors -- is this enough?

2,000 Omega
400mg Magnesium/1000mg Calcium (combo pill)
Vitamin-A (part of multi vitamin)


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Freddyz on Jul 27th, 2012 at 12:07pm
Batch,

I was at the pharm picking up more Zomig so I also picked up Citrical.  I didn't have the information above so wasn't sure what to get.  My question is, will this do (500 IU D3, 630 mg Calcium) and in what amount should I take it. I'm guessing I don't want to get all my D3 from this (I'd have to take 20 a day).  Also, I want to thank you and everyone that has provided advice over the past few days.  It's extremely helpful given this is turning into one of the worst cycles I've ever experienced.  Maybe more importantly is how comforting it is to talk with folks that understand what you're going through.

Fred

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2012 at 1:32pm
Fred,

Sorry you had a rough night.  In looking over results from the online anti-inflammatory survey and comments from CH'ers in this thread, it appears roughly 5% of the CH'ers who start this regimen experience a temporary increase in the severity and frequency of their CH.

There's no real answer to why this phenomenon occurs.  I suspect it's due to a temporary chemical, hormonal and or enzymatic imbalance caused by the supplements in this regimen.  The good news is this phenomenon dissipates in most cases... and the affected eventually experience a pain free response. That said, a few CH'ers who encountered this phenomenon called it quits and stopped the regimen rather than sticking with it a little longer.

The Citracal tablets you picked up today should help.

I take the Kirkland brand of calcium citrate as two of these tablets are formulated with 500 mg calcium, additional vitamin D3, 80 mg magnesium, 10 mg. zinc and 1 mg. boron.

The basic regimen I've been taking since October 2010 is illustrated in the following photo:

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I take two of each as shown below:

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I also take a Centrum Silver multi-vitamin tablet to get my vitamin A and vitamin K.

How did the visit with your doctor go today...  Had I known you were going to see your doctor, I would have warned you to be prepared for some push-back when you discuss this regimen.  It's unfortunate, but some physicians get their knickers in a wad when they hear the vitamin D3 dose we need to take in order to elevate serum 25(OH)D into the green zone range of 60 to 110 ng/mL.  Concentrations of 25(OH)D this high will also cause some physicians to shake their heads in disbelief...

What you can also tell your doctor the next time you see him are the empirical numbers collected to date with respect to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Since December of 2010, 200 CH'ers posted they've started this regimen, 150 of them reported a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH, 120 reported going pain free and remaining that way.

I'm still crunching the numbers from the online survey of CH'ers using this regimen, but it appears episodic CH'ers enjoy a higher efficacy in preventing their CH with this regimen than chronic CH'ers.  Although this data is still limited to 45 complete surveys, the efficacy for episodic CH'ers is 88% and 66% for chronic CH'ers.

Chronic CH'ers tend to take longer to achieve a favorable response to this regimen

This regimen is well tolerated and there have been no significant adverse effects reported. It appears this regimen can also be safely taken with other prescribed CH medications.

Finally, if the issue of safety comes up...  Vitamin D3 is one of the safest nutrients known to man.  Our bodies make it for free if exposed to sufficient sunlight.  There have been no reported deaths due to vitamin D3...   You can't say that about verapamil...

At roughly 20 cents a day, this is also the least expensive CH preventative available to us...

Please let us know the results of the visit with your doctor

Joshua,

My comments above on calcium and the cofactors should provide a response to your question... 

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Freddyz on Jul 27th, 2012 at 2:47pm
Batch,
   Dr. said go for it on the D3 and said he takes 50,000 a week so he wasn't concerned about my 70,000.  He also had no problem adding the blood test you recommended to the tests I was getting done.   This is just my PCP and he doesn't know crap about CH but he was interested in the treatment.  I really wanted to ask why he takes 50000 but never got around to it.  Thanks for the above.  I'll add two of the Citracal, drop one of the 2000 D3s, and continue with my multi that has A in it. Thanks again - will keep you posted

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CDog on Jul 27th, 2012 at 3:17pm
My d3 level is now at 105, still having the headaches. Have been on the regimen for at least 9 months...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 27th, 2012 at 3:21pm

CDog wrote on Jul 27th, 2012 at 3:17pm:
My d3 level is now at 105, still having the headaches. Have been on the regimen for at least 9 months...

You gotta be more specific.

Is it being measured in ng/mL or nmol/L?

If it's the latter, you ain't there yet.

If it's the former, I'm not sure what to tell you. Batch has a spiel about comorbid factors that I'm sure he'll be along to explain.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2012 at 4:51pm
Hey Fred,

Thanks for the update...  Sounds like you've a great primary care physician...  His response to this regimen is very encouraging... 

Given he favors taking vitamin D3 supplements for his own health at a dose that maintains a healthy level of 25(OH)D...  I'd say he knows more about treating cluster headache patients than he realizes.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Adamt on Jul 27th, 2012 at 5:01pm
Found this site just yesterday. After having a couple of others respond to my post I am beginning this regimen and hope to god that I find some relief with it.

This is what I am starting with:
10000IU D3
3000mg Omega-3
Calcium 600mg
Magnesium 250mg
Zinc 50mg
1 complete multi

I hope this works!  [smiley=wink.gif]
I will keep posting my results on a daily basis!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CDog on Jul 27th, 2012 at 5:42pm
It is 105 ng/mL

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2012 at 6:33pm
Chris,

Sorry this regimen hasn't been effective for you...  It's entirely possible it won't for some reason...  There are no absolutes except for death and taxes, and the CH is clearly not an exception when it comes to preventatives. 

From my earlier post today, the efficacy of this regimen as a CH preventative is 88% for episodic CH'ers and 66% for chronic CH'ers.  In going over your posts for the last seven months it appears you're either chronic or about to be so.

Brew brought up a good point on the units of measure used in your 25(OH)D lab results.  However, from your earlier posts and the fact you live here in the US where most diagnostic labs measure 25(OH)D in mass (ng/mL), rather than molarity, (nmol/L), I'll assume your results are in ng/mL.

It also appears you've been taking the cofactors and tried the higher vitamin D3 dosing strategy at 20,000 IU/day to no avail.  I'll also assume you've access to sufficient oxygen to abort your CH.  Have you tried taking some vitamin A?  Being an old foggy, I take a Centrum Silver tablet a day as this multivitamin is also formulated with vitamin A and vitamin K.

All this leads me to a few questions and suggestions.  What's the frequency and severity of your CH?  What's the wake/sleep spit in occurrence? Basically, what is your quality of life with cluster headaches?

For well over five years after I turned chronic, I was content to use oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation ~ 40 liters/minute, as my only CH intervention. 

I'd tried all the mainstream preventatives.  I found the risk|reward ratio for these medications unacceptable and the side effects onerous... so I stopped taking them completely.

I accepted the fact that I had CH and as the majority of my aborts with this method of oxygen therapy were under 7 minutes, the quality of life was reasonably good...  until I found vitamin D3 was so effective in preventing my CH.

What keeps me motivated now is trying to figure out why this regimen doesn't work for some CH'ers.  What I've noticed so far is the relationship between a non-response to this regimen and the existence of one or more comorbid medical conditions.  Some of these comorbid conditions may be subclinical or asymptomatic.  In other words, you could have one and not know it's there as you feel fine.

One of the more common comorbid conditions reported by CH'ers who don't respond to this regimen involves a thyroid and or parathyroid insufficiency.  The hormones from these two endocrine organs play essential roles in calcium homeostasis and vitamin D3 metabolism.

Hepatic and renal insufficiencies can also be a problem as vitamin D3 is first metabolized in the liver to 25(OH)D and then in the kidneys to 1,25(OH)2D3.

As your 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3 appears normal, I think it's relatively safe to say your liver appears to be working just fine...

I'm not a doctor so would suggest you see an endocrinologist for a complete workup.  Finding an endocrinologist who will work with you to run down all the possible avenues of interference with vitamin D3 metabolism would be great.

If you find your calcium and parathyroid levels are within the normal reference range, it might be worth pushing your serum concentration 25(OH)D a little higher...

There's a handful of chronic CH'ers who didn't experience a significant favorable response in their cluster headache patterns until they elevated their serum concentration of 25(OH)D up to and above 110 ng/mL.
 
The lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication, (indicated by higher than normal calcium levels), is 200 ng/mL, so you've still got a significant safety margin to explore.  From the available RCTs on this topic, it would take a sustained vitamin D3 dose greater than 40,000 IU/day to encounter vitamin D3 intoxication.

Take care, hang in there and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2012 at 6:44pm
Hey Adamt,

Welcome to this thread...  and good move starting the anti-inflammatory regimen...  The odds are in your favor you'll respond to this regimen.

Give this regimen a week to make sure you don't have an unfavorable reaction to one or more of the supplements... 

If there's still no joy after a week, I'd bump the vitamin D3 to 20,000 IU/day with a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week.  A growing number of CH'ers have found this dosing strategy results in a CH pain free response a little faster than vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Freddyz on Jul 27th, 2012 at 7:16pm
Batch,

  Has anyone found that spending more time in the sun helps speed things up.  Told my wife I need to increase my D3 so I have to spend the weekend hangout at our community pool.  It's a tough treatment but I'll suffer through it :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jul 27th, 2012 at 7:35pm
Hey Batch

Once again thanks for the advice. I found a lab that will do the test and have an appointment Wednesday. Also have just changed doctors so have an appointment Thursday with the new one to bring her up to speed with where I am and test her response to this regimen. If its not favourable then step next will be a slightly left of centre practitioner. Still clear, not even the hint of a shadow in the last 4 days, simply wonderful!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2012 at 7:46pm
Fred,

The short answer is yes...  The cutaneous vitamin D synthesis from solar radiation is the only "free" vitamin...  Spending more time in the summer sun will increase the production of cutaneous vitamin D3.

That said...  it needs to be quality time near mid day (10 AM - 2 PM) during the summer months clad in a bathing suit without any sun block.

10 minutes a side should be sufficient to generate the equivalent of 15,000 to 20,000 IU of cutaneous vitamin D3.  Any more time than that and the risk of skin cancer starts going up...

The other rule of thumb is if you get a sun burn in 20 minutes, don't stay exposed for more than 10 minutes a side if reclined.

I lived in Northern VA not far from Alexandria in Lake Ridge...  I also used to frequent some of the watering holes near the Torpedo Factory and found the cuisine at Le Gaulois better than average...

That said, there's not enough high angle sun at that latitude for five to six months of the year...

Skin type also plays a role...  See the following link at the Vitamin D Council for a more detailed explanation...

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Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2012 at 7:52pm
Hey Wayne,

Thanks for the update and glad you found a diagnostic lab nearby.  Here's hoping the new doc is a player... or at least open to the benefits of this regimen.

It is a wonderful feeling being free of CH pain...  and knowing how to keep it that way...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Adamt on Jul 28th, 2012 at 3:16pm
Day #2

I had an evening of uninterrupted sleep?!?!

I was not awaken by not one single cluster last night. I did have a small attack this morning but the duration of the cluster was only for like 5 minutes and the intensity was not severe at all.

My head feels completely different, normally I have a twinge constantly reminding me that the cluster is lurking but that twinge is gone.

Could this really be the miracle that I was praying for? It makes me wonder if my cycle was almost at it's end but from what I am reading in this thread it can not be just coincidence.

Batch, thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing this information. I can not wait to go to the Doctors this coming Tuesday to tell them about this. I am hoping that this will allow me to get off the Imitrex and blood pressure meds... they make me feel yucky!

I can not express to every one the difference between Today and just two days ago! 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 28th, 2012 at 4:49pm

Adamt wrote on Jul 28th, 2012 at 3:16pm:
Day #2

I had an evening of uninterrupted sleep?!?!

I was not awaken by not one single cluster last night. I did have a small attack this morning but the duration of the cluster was only for like 5 minutes and the intensity was not severe at all.

My head feels completely different, normally I have a twinge constantly reminding me that the cluster is lurking but that twinge is gone.

Could this really be the miracle that I was praying for? It makes me wonder if my cycle was almost at it's end but from what I am reading in this thread it can not be just coincidence.

Batch, thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing this information. I can not wait to go to the Doctors this coming Tuesday to tell them about this. I am hoping that this will allow me to get off the Imitrex and blood pressure meds... they make me feel yucky!

I can not express to every one the difference between Today and just two days ago! 

Pretty f'n cool, no?

I eventually busted my last cycle away (after some intense misery), and I had just started the D3 regimen. Now I won't go a day without it. Been pain free ever since.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Freddyz on Jul 28th, 2012 at 6:48pm
Batch, Another very bad night last night.  I broke down this morning and started the Methylprednisolone my neurologist prescribed.  I had been holding on to it and didn't want to go down that road but things have gotten very bad.  Thank god I got a script for imitrex epipens and got it filled yesterday afternoon or I would have ended up in the ER.  Anyway, I'm sticking to the D3 regime but when the cycle ends I won't know if it's the D3 or the Methylprednisolone.   Wish I could have been able to isolate the D3 to help you with your study.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 28th, 2012 at 9:47pm
Adamt,

The short answer is yes...  It's entirely possible you've responded to the anti-inflammatory regimen this fast.

As you will see from the preliminary extract from the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Survey shown below, you appear to be among the 11% who respond to this regimen within 48 hours after start of regimen with a significant decrease in the frequency and severity of your cluster headaches.

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As Brew said in as many words, it's a wonderful feeling...  Make sure you ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D when you see your doctor.  The results of this test will add credible medical evidence to the causal relationship between a cessation of cluster headaches and serum concentrations of 25(OH)D elevated into the 60 to 110 ng/mL range.

We need more of the CH'ers who have started this regimen and stuck with it for at least a month or more to take this survey.  Only 60 have taken this survey so far and of them, only 45 have completed it.

I figure there are at least another 100 CH'ers out there who should be able to take this survey.  We need their input. 

I need at least 100 completed surveys to have a statistically significant sample size that will convince the editors of the major headache publications, an article about this CH preventative is worth the time, effort and professional credibility to publish.

Brew, thanks for the words of encouragement.  It's comments like yours and Adamnt's that give the CH'ers who haven't tried this regimen, enough energy to burn through the medication and/or pain induced haze, to see the potential benefits of starting this regimen.

Fred,

Don't worry about taking a bailout preventative or abortive...  You're not letting me down or hurting the study... None of us are superman...  I found that oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation ~ 40 liters/minute, resulted in CH aborts almost as fast as sumatriptan succinate SC injections...  No side effects either...

Do what you need to do to stop and prevent the pain.  As long as you stick with this regimen, the odds are on your side that you'll experience a favorable response. 

Moreover, using an unweighted response time for this regimen, the average time to respond is 12 to 13 days so you've still got a bit to go...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Adamt on Jul 29th, 2012 at 9:58am
Day #3

I had an another amazing night of sleep! Not one single cluster attack. Not even a shadow!

At this point I went from complete misery with atleast 6 attacks daily ranging from 6 -8 on the kip scale just three days ago to now fully aborting my cycle. How do I know my cycle is aborted? Because my head feels completely different just as it did when I was in remission.

I hate my Doctor prescribed meds so... when I started to take Batch's recommended regimen I also stopped taking the prescribed meds to make sure that if this D3 regimen worked it was purely because of the D3 regimen, I wanted to be sure. I know Tuesday when I go to my Doctors visit I am sure she won't be happy with me taking myself off of the meds but ultimately it's my body and my decision.

I feel great! Normally, when going through my cycles I do not go far from my bedroom because my bed is the most comfortable place for me to battle the beast. Today, I got up and made a pot of coffee, took a shower and for the first time in a month since the cycle started was able to take my 4 mile run!

I am completely sold on this regimen, and I recommend every cluster sufferer to try it. I have suffered from episodic and chronic CH for the last 28 years of my life, nothing has ever brought me relief as quickly and safely as this has. This thread is a life saver!  [smiley=applause.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Adamt on Jul 29th, 2012 at 10:18am
Quick question Batch?

Any idea if this regimen has been getting any type of success with migraine sufferers?

I have a friend who suffers dearly with migraines, would love to mention it to him but am afraid that it might not have the same effect for him as it has for me?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 29th, 2012 at 1:29pm
Adamt,

Thanks for the wonderful update...  That said, I'm confident the odds are high your doctor will get his or her knickers in a wad and place me on some kind of shit list when you say you came off the Rx med's for CH without first consulting with him or her.

I'm not worried about me...  but I do want you to be able to ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D without running into a hornet's nest response.  Perhaps you can ask for the 25(OH)D lab test first and have the script in hand before you say you stopped all the other CH med's.

In the long run it's better for all of us if we can coax and cajole the PCPs and neurologists who treat us into thinking outside the box on the apparent causal relationship between a cessation of CH and a serum concentration of 25(OH)D elevated into a range of 60 to 110 ng/mL.

The sooner they find this method of preventing CH is effective, the sooner they'll have another arrow in their quiver to treat the next nubie who presents with CH.

In regard to telling your friend with migraines about this regimen...  Go for it... but please tell him to ask his PCP or neurologist for the 25(OH)D lab test. 

The sample size of migraineurs I'm tracking who are taking this regimen is small, but the efficacy is 100%.  So far every migraineur who has started this regimen has stopped having migraines.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Jul 29th, 2012 at 3:26pm
Hello everyone....I've been reading thru a ton of this thread...and am very excited to try this Vit D3 and Omega 3.  Batch, I have also been conversing with some fellow CH'ers on Facebook about your regimine idea.  THANK you so much for all of this work you have done!!  Now...another question.  I have pulled my physical results from my last physical.  I'm trying to determine if my blood serum is listed.  There are several serum's listed but i don't know which one is the one you are referring to in your posts.  Here are what is listed (maybe none are the correct one):  Glucose, serum; Creatinine, Serum; Sodium, Serum; Postassium, serum; Chloride, Serum; Protein, total, serum; Albumin, Serum; Globulin, Total; .......are any of these the one you refer to in your posts? 
Again thanks so much; can't wait to try this!!
Darrell

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 29th, 2012 at 7:25pm
Darrell - Nope. You need to be specifically tested for 25(OH)D.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Jul 29th, 2012 at 7:39pm
Thanks Drew!  And one more stupid question...sorry to keep asking so much.  I went to buy the Omega 3 and the highest dosage I find is 360 Mg of Omega 3 in the fish oil.  So is it 3000 mg of Fish oil or specifically 3000 mg of Omega 3?  I bought 1000 Mg (with 300 mg omega 3)...so I would take 3 softgels each morning right?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 29th, 2012 at 8:08pm
Hey Darrell,

Good question.  The lab results you've listed sound like they're coming from a Basic Metabolic Panel (CHEM-8).  If you look at the printout of your lab results they should appear under a banner (panel) grouping titled Chemistry Panel and or CBC.

The lab test for serum vitamin D3, (cholecalciferol), is a bit of a canard or half-duck, as it's not really a vitamin and not yet a hormone...  That said most medical diagnostic labs list the test for vitamin D3/25(OH)D in their endocrine/hormone panel.  Ask your PCP or neurologist for this lab test at the next opportunity.

What's actually measured or assayed is the serum concentration of a vitamin D3 metabolite, 25-Hydroxyvitamin (D2+D3), a.k.a. 25(OH)D or calcidiol.

Most US medical diagnostic labs will list the normal reference range for 25(OH)D as 30 to 100 ng/mL.  Less than 30 ng/mL (75 nmol/L) is considered insufficient/deficient...  A 25(OH)D serum concentration greater than 100 ng/mL, (250 nmol/L) is considered excessive...  and unexplored... 

It's kind of like the early nautical charts used and created by explorers in the 1400s...  The margins were frequently annotated with "Beyond here there be dragons... "

There are several studies that have concluded it would take a 25(OH)D serum concentration greater than 200 ng/mL, (500 nmol/L) to reach the lower threshold of vitamin D3 toxicity... 

This is where the serum calcium and PTH (parathyroid hormone) lab tests would come into play as vitamin D3 intoxication would be clinically indicated by a serum calcium concentration above the normal reference range.  PTH would also be at the low end of its reference range or below...

What we need as cluster headache sufferers, in order to remain pain free, is a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 to 110 ng/mL.  From the empirical data I've collected to date, at least 80% of us on the anti-inflammatory regimen will be CH pain free in this range. 

That said, I've a couple chronic CH'ers with intermittent CH attacks, pushing the outer limits of the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 intakes of ≥25,000 IU/day and significantly higher concentrations of 25(OH)D...  One at 130 ng/mL, (325 nmol/L) and the other at 160 ng/mL, (400 nmol/L). 

Both are doing this under close medical supervision with labs every two weeks.

At this point neither of them has had any indications of vitamin D3 intoxication... Nonetheless, their endocrinologists are running around with their radars in high PRF mode and sonars actively pinging like nervous Nellies...  So far... No dragons...

Take care and please keep us posted,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Jul 29th, 2012 at 10:49pm
Batch, I can't thank you enough already for all the work you are doing!!  Thanks for the information....I will call my doc tomorrow and ask about the lab test.  The lab results I have are from a Comp Metabolic Panel (14). 
BTW..did you see my last question about the fish oil vs omega 3?  A little bit confused on that.  So ready to try this out starting tomorrow!  Had a KIP5 headache today and some pings tonight...so ready to stop this mess.  :-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 30th, 2012 at 2:24am
Darrell,

Good move on getting the lab test for 25(OH)D... 

What you're looking for in the Omega 3 Fish Oil is the available EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) and DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) per serving size.  These are the two fatty acids that have the best anti-inflammatory properties... They also help lower total cholesterol...

Any serving size of Omega 3 Fish Oil, usually two liquid softgel capsules, should contain at least 360 mg EPA and 240 mg DHA per serving.  After that, calculate the cost per serving at these EPA and DHA values for the best bang for the buck.

I've done that and the Nature Made™ Omega 3 Fish Oil has the best bang for the buck at Costco.  Otherwise take a calculator with you when you go shopping...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jul 30th, 2012 at 3:48am
Hello Batch n Co

Just checking in to update. I cut out the Egotomine from Saturday night, all good so far. That makes it 12 days PF :)
I am so thankful that you had the tenacity to continue this research Batch, I think that this will change many lives.
Take care
Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Jul 30th, 2012 at 3:55am

Adamt wrote on Jul 29th, 2012 at 10:18am:
Any idea if this regimen has been getting any type of success with migraine sufferers?


Whilst I've not had a CH since January and only 10 in the last year, vitamin D hasn't impacted my migraines, yet...

However what has made a massive difference to them is skipping anything with caffeine or chocolate plus propranolol.

Sorry to break the 100% migraine record Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:06am
Batch- FINALLY - I got my D3 levels back from doctor.  It's 132ng  -- I'm still getting hit 2-3 or 4 times daily, times are fluctuating, but normalizing:
1 around 17:00-20:00
1 after I fall asleep 22:00-01:00
1 early morning 04:00-05:00
SOMETIMES 1 mid-morning  07:00-9:00
I don't get the mid morning if I get the early morning usually.
.
At 132 and still getting hits, should I try to push it higher (I'm chronic.)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:38am
Hey Wayne,

Thanks for the great update and kind words.  It's CH'ers like you who are giving this method of preventing CH it's legs.  Without comments like yours, too many CH'ers would blow off any suggestion to give this preventative regimen a try.

Mike,

No need to be sorry about breaking the string...  As we've all said many times, no method of headache intervention works 100% of the time...  I suspect the efficacy of anti-inflammatory regimen for migraineurs will stabilize between 75% and 85%.

For reference, how much vitamin D3 are you taking daily along with the Omega 3 Fish Oil, calcium and cofactors: magnesium, vitamin K2, zinc and boron?   

Take care and thanks for the comments.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chad on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:16am

Freddyz wrote on Jul 28th, 2012 at 6:48pm:
Batch, Another very bad night last night.  I broke down this morning and started the Methylprednisolone my neurologist prescribed.  I had been holding on to it and didn't want to go down that road but things have gotten very bad.  Thank god I got a script for imitrex epipens and got it filled yesterday afternoon or I would have ended up in the ER.  Anyway, I'm sticking to the D3 regime but when the cycle ends I won't know if it's the D3 or the Methylprednisolone.   Wish I could have been able to isolate the D3 to help you with your study.
Take Batch's advice about the O2.  You may never need a triptan again.
I haven't pulled the needle out in years.  If you do use that though, follow the Imitrex tip on your left column.  It will save you money and the possibility of using unnecessary amounts of suma triptan to abort a single HA.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:24pm
Joshua,

Many thanks for the lab data and CH status.  The short answer is yes, you can push your 25(OH)D a little higher, but only under a physician's supervision with labs every two weeks.

If your doctor is unwilling to go along with this, try to find an endocrinologist who is willing to do so.  I'd also suggest a complete endocrine workup.

From the survey data and close contact with other chronic CH'ers, they tend to take longer to experience a response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Chronic CH'ers also frequently need to take higher doses of vitamin D3 in order to elevate their 25(OH)D higher than most episodic CH'ers... 

Unfortunately, even then, this regimen is not as effective for chronic CH'ers and there are some who don't respond at all even after six months to a year on this regimen.

In the mean time, lets get back to the basics... Please shoot me a PM or email with a complete list of the supplements you're presently taking, doses and brands.

Do you have oxygen therapy available?  If not, you'll need a flow rate of at least 25 liters/minute if not higher for reliable aborts.

Some other things you may want to try include an alkalizing and anti-inflammatory diet.  A good guide of food types that will elevate systemic pH (more alkaline - less acid) can be found at the following link:

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Scroll to the bottom of this web page and select food types from the green columns.

A good guide for an anti-inflammatory diet can be found at the following link:

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This is the GOMBS diet of super foods and it's compatible with the alkalizing food types.  GOMBS stands for Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans/Berries, and Seeds

What you're essentially looking for here is to limit the intake of red meat, adding chicken or fish and lots of salad.  Cut out all refined sugar and starches completely.  A little honey or agave nectar is much better for you.

You also need a serving of GOMBS at least once a day...  A good rule of thumb for a GOMBS meal is a handful of each element.

I've found that broccoli soup or a 5-bean salad followed by a berry smoothy satisfies the daily GOMBS requiremt.

One of my favorite GOMBS meals is Broccoli Soup:
1 cup fresh broccoli (split into rosettes including stem)
1/2 cup sliced mushrooms
1/2 cup chopped onion
1/2 can garbanzo beans/chickpeas
2 to 3 large Jalapeno peppers
1 can chicken stock
1/4 cup sliced almonds or sunflower seeds
Juice half lemon
1/4 to 1/2 tsp curry powder
2 tbs olive oil

Cut the stem end off the jalapeno peppers, split lengthwise in half then scrape out the seeds and placenta with a spoon.  This will cut the heat.  Do this under the faucet to keep the capcasin mist out of your eyes and off your hands...  Julienne, cube or dice the jalapeno halfs. Use food prep gloves if necessary.

Saute or sweat the sliced mushrooms, chopped jalapeno peppers and onions in a tbs olive oil, season with garlic powder and pinch of salt.  I also like to use a dash of McCormick's Grill Mates Montreal Steak seasoning instead of salt.

Microwave the broccoli and garbanzo beams in a covered microwave proof container for 3 to 4 minuets.  Before cooking, drizzle a tbs olive oil, the juice of half lemon over the broccoli bean mix.  Season with garlic powder and a pinch of salt.

When every thing is cooked, dump it all in a blender along with the chicken stock seeds and curry powder then puree until it looks like split pea soup.

Season to taste with salt and fresh ground pepper.  Top with a dollop of sour cream.  If you want to kick it up a notch, add a dash or two of chipotle pepper sauce.

Just about any 5-bean salad recipe will work.  Same with recipe for berry smoothies.  I keep a bag of frozen berries from Costco in the freezer at all times.

Hope this helps...  Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Jul 30th, 2012 at 5:29pm
Hi Batch et al...thanks again for the info.  I did meet with the neurologist today (after a major CH..UGH).  I also started on the Vit D3 and Fish Oil this morning.  Murphy's law right...start the new regimen and have the worst headache so far.  LOL.  Had the blood test done today and Doc was very open to working with me on this regimen.  Will keep you posted!! 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brooke on Jul 30th, 2012 at 5:49pm
Starting 1st dose last night. Took one this morning. I split it up so I take 1 of each twice a day (once in AM once in PM) so far today I'm having my 5:30pm-5:45pm attack right on schedule... but we'll see. At this point, I'll try anything!!  :-/

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 30th, 2012 at 6:13pm
Be patient. It took over 6 weeks for it to have a positive effect for me. Some people respond in a matter of days, but not everyone.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Jul 31st, 2012 at 8:45am
Brew- agreed, initially I had fewer hits (I'm chronic) but of late, a month in and with a level of 132ng/mL, my hits are coming on stronger and more frequently then ever (3 to 4 per day) - which is not an improvement for me over previous cycles.  I have heard some get worse before they get better- so that's where I'm putting my eggs as I push my levels up a bit higher.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 31st, 2012 at 10:41am
You should also consider consulting an endocrinologist. You might have high serum levels, but perhaps one or more of your glands or organs are not functioning properly, thus inhibiting the proper conversion and absorption of the D3.

It could be that you're merely pi$$ing it away.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Adamt on Jul 31st, 2012 at 3:05pm
Ok!

Doctor's visit went great today. After explaining the regimen to my doctor her and I both sat at the computer and looked over this thread together. Not only was she encouraged but also very inquisitive.

We did the 25 ( OH ) D blood test today and I am looking forward to seeing the results. My Doctor is as well and as matter of fact this is also something she is going to consider trying on a few of her migraine patients as well.

Not a single problem getting her to agree to take me off the verapamil and Imitrex. She also expressed to me that not only is it frustrating for the patient but equally as frustrating for the Doctor as well due to the lack of quality treatments available to them to offer to the patient.

Day#5

Been having some shadows, and had one full blown attack severity and length were both significantly decreased.

Day#4

Day 4 had mixed results. 3 attacks one after the other in the early am. Atleast one of them went to 8 on the kip. The difference was that they were very short lived.

Will keep every one updated!


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Jul 31st, 2012 at 10:00pm
Hi Gang,
Thought I would jump in for an update.  Something interesting has happened over the last few week.  I was getting ready to post that I have been pf for almost 5 months when the our old friend returned.  It's been much milder than any episode that I have ever had.  Over a two week period I've only had to abort three times and those weren't terribly high (maybe reaching a 5 or 6 at most).  I have been very good at staying on the regimen.  10 000 per day of vit d + the co factors.  The only change I had made was to avoid the fruit juice because of the sugar. 

Here is the interesting part that may have triggered our friend.  My wife, who is 33, had a stroke a few weeks ago.  Additional testing revealed that she had a large benign tumor in her heart which was removed a couple of days after being found.  (Now she will make a full recovery but will probably have to use a pacemaker for the rest of her life)  To say this has been stressful for me is an understatement. 
I noticed the shadows returning almost a week after my wife had been admitted to the hospital.  I would like to throw out the hypothesis that perhaps under times of high stress our bodies use up more of our vit D reserves.  I responded to the signs of the beast by cranking up the vit D intake a day.  I changed from 10 000 to 25 000 per day.  In the last few days I've only had one shadow that caused me to be unable to sleep so I've started to drop the vit d down (to 20 000 per day) and I also added the acidic fruit juice when i realized I was in session. 

As time goes on I plan to return back down to the regular dose of 10 000/day.  Looking back in hindsight it would have been nice to be able to get a vit d test done but I had a 2 year old and 4 year old to manage while mama was in the hospital. 


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Aug 2nd, 2012 at 7:21am
Hi Batch and Everyone! 
To MemyselfandI...prayers dude to you and your wife!!  Good to hear the increased VitD3 may be helping! 

Okay..my update...as posted earlier this week...I started the VitD3/Fish Oil on monday morning; had two CH's that day.  Tuesday..NO CH!...just some shawdows and minor pings.  Yesterday...NO CH!..same as above....UNTIL Midnight last night...and the devil sneaked up on me in my sleep.  He is a Sneaky rascal!!!  It hurt pretty good at time it woke me up so I elected to use the Imitrex (generic) Shot that Doc gave me sample of on Monday.  Shot worked great..CH was gone within 2-3 mins max.  Slept until clock alarmed this am at 6:30.  Just the normal CH hangover this morning.

Now....I had the blood test (25 OH) done on Monday and results came back yesterday.  My level was 28.1 ng/ml which they said is low and if I'm reading all these posts correctly seems quite low from where it should be.  Doc said the range should be 30-100 which seems like a very wide range! 

Doc suggested that he prescribe 50,000 IU of VitD3 (one tablet per week).  I wasn't sure that was better than taking the 10,000 IU's per day OTC.  Batch, your thoughts on that?  Doc did say for me to not take over 50k per week (so I assume I will take 5 days and stop 2 days)...or should I just get the prescription and take it once a week and not worry with the other days.

He wants me to do this for 6 weeks and then come back for re-test.

Batch et al..I'm taking the Fish Oil (Nature Made from Costco); but I'm only take the 2 softgels daily which is 2400g or mg I think.  Should I be taking more? 

Any other suggestions or thoughts?  Oh I am taking the Centrum Silver daily (have been for years).

As always I extremely appreciate your input!!  BATCH, I'm not sure if you get paid for all your hard work for us (I assume not); but I know the GOOD LORD is filling your crown with Jewels daily for us!!!!

Looking forward to hearing from you all.. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 2nd, 2012 at 10:01am
Hey All,  I'll take the comments in reverse order...  There's been a lot of interesting data and comments posted over the last few days.

Darrell, You've only been on this regimen for a few days and with a starting 25(OH)D serum concentration of 28 ng/mL...  you've got a way to go in order to elevate your 25(OH)D into the CH pain free "green zone" (60 to 110) ng/mL

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As you can see from this chart, it could take upwards of a month to elevate your 25(OH)D from 28 ng/mL to 60 ng/mL at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  At an average of 7,000 IU/day as your doctor suggests, it could take upwards of 40 to 45 days to reach a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 ng/mL.

The following chart illustrates a comparison between a dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and 20,000 IU/day... the dashed line. 

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At 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3, it takes the average individual 20 days to get into the "green zone" at 60 ng/mL. 

It's entirely possible you'll have a favorable response and go pain free before reaching a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 ng/mL so it may take less than 20 days at 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

As far as your physician's recommendation for vitamin D3 dosing at 50,000 IU vitamin D3 once a week... all I can say is we've had nearly 200 CH'ers taking 70,000 IU/week up to 140,000 IU/week for well over a 18 months with no adverse effects... 

The most effective vitamin D3 dosing strategy appears to be 20,000 IU/day plus a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week.  This is still a conservative therapeutic dose of vitamin D3 compared to what some RRMS patients take. 

The following chart from another study by Garland et al, illustrates it takes a vitamin D3 intake of 50,000 IU/day for at least six months to generate a 25(OH)D serum concentration near the lower threshold of vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL

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Accordingly... It's your call on how much vitamin D3 to take...  and how long you want to wait for a favorable response...  Show your doctor these charts and the attached study by Dr. Garland and Dr. Heaney.

For reference, my wife pops 15,000 IU/day (105,000 IU/week) vitamin D3 to control her migraines and loves how it makes her feel.  She also kicked the heck out of 74 last December.

Regarding the Nature Made Omega 3 Fish Oil...  Two of the softgels (2400 mg/day) is perfect...  I assume you're taking the calcium citrate tablets with the cofactors as well.

MM&I,

I'm happy your wife is doing better...  I'm not sure how I would handle the situation if my wife had a stroke...  Is your wife taking the vitamin D3 regimen? 

Regarding your vitamin D3 intake... not only is there a wide variation in the rate at which people metabolize vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D, there also appears to be a seasonal variation in how each of us metabolize vitamin D3.

I've been taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 since October 2010...  That said, there have been times when this wasn't enough and I needed to bump the dose to 15,000 IU/day.

As you can see from the first chart above, the average 25(OH)D serum concentration reaches a little over 80 ng/mL after 5 months at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  Again this is the average response rate.  The only way to know for sure is to see your physician for a lab test for 25(OH)D.  You might have your wife go in for the same test...  Odds are she is vitamin D3 deficient.

Bumping your vitamin D3 intake to 20,000 IU/day should be sufficient...  Adding fruit juice high in citric acid will help as well.   I make my own lemonade and sweeten with Splenda.

Adamt,

Your doctor sounds like a winner.  What a pleasant surprise...  Please give her my email address and let her know I'll be happy to load her up with all kinds of supporting data on this regimen and stats I've collected on CH'er and migraineur responses.

Do let us know the result of your lab test for 25(OH)D.

Brooke,

Welcome to the group...  Here's hoping this regimen will be as effective in preventing your CH as it has been for so many others.  Please keep us posted.

Take care all and thanks again for all the data and comments.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=607_full.pdf (160 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brooke on Aug 2nd, 2012 at 1:22pm
Been on for 3.5 days now (started sunday night)... monday had my normal beast times. Tues... only 2 and yesterday only 1... so far I am liking this outcome... I will keep posting! I wish I did labs to see what my level was before I started, but I guess it's too late now.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Aug 2nd, 2012 at 7:26pm
Hello All

Update, 16 days all clear now :), a very happy fella I am!

Life intervened and took me out of town when I was supposed to go for the 25(OH)D test. No worries, it may be better as when I go next week I will have completed 2 full weeks on the 20k/50k D3 regimen. I've kept everything else stable and am feeling wonderful. Friday afternoon is staring me in the face and I am confidently going to have a few beers after work.

I wish you all a restful PF weekend

Cheers

Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Magnus on Aug 2nd, 2012 at 9:29pm
My name is Magnús. I have had clusters for 30 years. Episodical.
Usually my attacks last up to three, five months each time. But it has varied over the years.

This cycle has been long and intensive for me. My seventh month was coming up. As usual oxygen, verapamil and Imigran nasal and injections have been my savior. Then after taking the advice from Batch i went on board with the D3 inflammatory regimen.

I started the regimen on the 11th of June after being in a cycle since february. I read every bit i could swallow from you here and been blown away by all the work Batch has put in this. Amazing work to say the least.

My daily dose started as follows:

D3 10.000IU
Omega 3. 2000
Silver centrum multi vitamin
Calcium citrate - 400mg to 600mg
Magnesium 200mg to 600mg
K2 45 to 90mcg a day
Boron 3mg (came five weeks into this)
Zink 15mg

I always took Calcium and Magnesium in the afternoons with a glass of Lemonade.

But the hits were getting worse at the same time and for the next following week. I upped the D3 doze to 20.000IU a day the next week and still no relief. After three weeks of this regimen i didn't get any better and no hope therefor. I kept taking it all the time still, because i had read here' that it could take some time to work through the system.
Sometimes i upped the dose to D350.000IU and the Calcium Omega and Magnesium aswell over this period of time. Changed the sequences of dozing, ect.

All the adjustments i did with the regimen didn't work at all. It seemed or seems that i was to be one of the 70% not getting relief.

I got the 23(OH)D test yesterday finally. The test was done 15th of July, which was the time i was really having a hard time with the demon. The 25(OH)D came out 218.06.  According to all the post here I'm well above the target right? Yet, i was getting hit.
I did a full blood check for everything aswell. Calcium, Magnesium.. the works. Everything came out normal the doc said.

But i wasn't satisfied so i went to a Homeopath, that was highly recommended, for i was willing to try everything this time. Pain is a good motivator ;) Well ok, and i told her my story.
She then put this thing over my head. Connected to a computer, a Bio feedback machine, you probably heard of it? To messure the state of your body. (somebody else is probably better at explaining this than me)

Anyway, you might say the computer crashed after it read my Bio feedback. Trauma was the word she used when she read my results ;( The result was that I was allergic to myself. Great! °-° (probably not the right english words here?) My liver was definably not functioning properly, i was allergic to wheat, deries, sugar, MSG, coffine, tomatoes, onion, meat, potatoes, soy, black pepper, gras, well almost everything i take for granted in my daily life.

So she gave me some ideas to try for a diet:
To cut out all out above and focus on raw food, fish, nuts, vegetables, fruits, greek yogurt, seeds and that kinda food. She added CUQ10 100mg to the mix. Asidophilus 20 billion units,  Triphala and B12.

This was on wednesday last week. I have been almost pain free since. A sligh shadow two days ago, but thats it.
Maybe my cycle is over. i don't know. Or the liver rinsing a part of it? The diet?

I think it is all connected or then links to look into further. That somehow our neuro systems react differently when these things aren't in place, Hormones, liver function, D3 insufficiency, Omega 3. Wrong messages to our pineal gland that misinterprets the signal and wham bam, thank you mam!!?

My prediction is that Neuros will be out of of job in a few years time. hehe ;)

Liver rinsing for 10 days.
15 minutes before breakfast:
Squeeze half a lemon in warm water
3 table spoons olive oil
Ceyenne pepper.

Im going to get an full endocrine work up aswell as soon as i can.

I will let you know what happens after some time on this new diet too. I'm going to lower the D3 to 5000IU and she what happens.

I don't know if this helps but i wanted to share my story aswell.

Thank you so much all of you and you Batch for this wonderful work.

Magnús

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 2nd, 2012 at 10:52pm
Brooke, Wayne,

No worry about getting a starting value for your 25(OH)D serum concentration.  The most important lab comes when you're pain free.  That's the value you want to maintain or exceed...

Remember, the anti-inflammatory regimen is not a cure...  You'll need to continue taking it to keep your 25(OH)D in the green zone to remain pain free.

The beauty of the 25(OH)D response curves that Dr. Heaney developed is they can be used in reverse to calculate your starting concentration at the dose of vitamin D3 you've been taking.

Wayne, I trust the beer test went well.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 2nd, 2012 at 11:49pm
Magnus,

What a fascinating post.  Thank you for sharing it with us.  I'm happy to hear life is starting to return to normal...  As you say, there are so many factors involved, it's hard to say exactly what did the trick to send the beast running.

That said, a 25(OH)D serum concentration at 218 is meaningless without the units of measure.  If it's 218 ng/mL, you're at the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication and need to cut your vitamin D3 intake back to 5,000 IU/day for a month then retest.

It's comforting to hear your serum calcium level is still normal, so there's no indication of vitamin D3 toxicity.

However, if your serum concentration of 25(OH)D is 218 nmol/L (87 ng/mL), you're in the center of the green zone.

In short, what are the units of measure used in your lab test for 25(OH)D?  Knowing that will help connect some of the dots...

The exciting news is your allergies.  You may have broken the code why some CH'ers don't respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen...

I've said many times in earlier posts that there have been a number of CH'ers with serum concentrations of 25(OH)D in the "green zone" 60-110 ng/mL, (150-225 nmol/L), who continued to get hit. 

A good number of these CH'ers also reported one or more comorbid conditions.  In your case, it appears to be a major allergic reaction to several food types and possibly liver functions that were out of whack. 

Your doctor was spot on by putting you on an anti-inflammatory diet.  From what you've listed, I'd say it's the GOMBS super food diet (less the Onion).  A serving of Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans Berries and Seeds every day.  Cut out the red meat, wheat, sugar and high starch food types.   Add fish and chicken...

Taking lemon juice and olive oil are also alkalizing food types that elevate serum pH making it less acid and more alkaline.

Please let us know the units of measure for your 25(OH)D lab test and keep us posted.

And yes...  I agree with your comment on neurologists...  If the neurologists who treat us don't come on board, start testing for 25(OH)D and start prescribing this regimen...  a lot more CH'ers and migraineurs are going to vote with their feet and start seeing an endocrinologist or homeopathic physician instead for their headaches.

Take care, thanks again for the fascinating back brief and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Magnus on Aug 3rd, 2012 at 8:04am
Hi again

Yes sorry, the 25(OH)D test came out as 218.6 nmol.  I had the doc spell it out for me this time ;) that should be ok or?

Well, It was the Homeopath that put me on this new diet. Not sure if a doctor would do the same.

The statistics show that we are most of us are, Caucasian males right? =  D3 obsorbion or liver function bad in our case and then D3 is not a vitamin yet a hormone? There are just to many bells ringing in my head too because of all of this work you've done Batch and for what I'm experiencing. D3, Hormones, diet, Omega.- Ding!

Im much calmer and focused these days and my head is top clear, yet i know how easily i can swift in this happier mood when the beast is out of my system, so i take one day at a time. I have been writing down a diary everyday for the vitamins and what i eat, since i stared this regimen, my moods and activitys from morning to bedtime. Just to keep a record for me.

I might mention that i meditate for 10 and sometimes up to 20 minutes a day, whenever i get a moment i try calm my head
(Its still difficult) been doing that for five, six years. Been lazy at it this cycle though for its been hard to relax and empty your mind when its full of anxiety and restlessness, knowing how the beast behaves. But when i sinc in to it and can relax, i totally feel the benefits of it and the severity of the attacks have been lessened these five past years.

The regularity of my diet every two three hours is a must today. At least when I'm finding this out. That was not been old norm by no means. Ate when i felt hungry and that could be five to seven hours between sometimes.

Mushrooms are really good for the liver i heard and experienced. I felt that after trying to Bust in May.  (not sure if the Icelandic shrooms are effective enough) The following days my toilet activities in the mornings and well being where super duper for a few days or so;) So there is another connection i think that the liver comes in the equation, busting on shrooms i mean. Aside from Psilocybin. Or is it the Psilocybin that does it?

I exercise almost everyday in the summer time. Basketball, bicycling, walking and such but it can be difficult during wintertime (i live in Iceland) I must be careful because during a cycle activities might provoke an attack and then i tend to loose a lot of weight so it has always been a struggle. I read here that D3 does that to?

I smoke and have smoked cigarettes (and weed) all this time. Ive heard that nicotine is a factor.. Im smoking now and I'm fine   ::)

I forgot to mention the my Homeopath recommended a glass of Spirulina and then a wheatgrass snaps, three times a week. And then she recommended that i should see a Cranio something something specialist...?? (can't find the english word here, goggle translate didn't help) Because she saw in the bio feedback result that i was stuck or locked in my neck muscles to the scull ( im really bad with these words gyes hehe) so i should go see this specialist. This specialist (i don't have the name for, doh) helps to balance our spinal and fluids. (i will find that name  ;D)

These kinda Blockades through out the years, might be interfering?

Two weeks ago i started going to these amazing Chinese massagesist up here, (didn't think it was related to cluster) tvice a week for my body and especially my left side was in a really bad shape after all this suffering through out the years. Im stiff as a rock and my muscles are very very tight, stuck almost.

I get my clusters on the right side always, and during 30 years of suffering on the right side, my left side of the body has been trying to take the heat of the pain, so to speak. Protecting the right side. While the right side was always trying to relax on the pain. This is my take on it at least. Im twisted and bended after all this time which they are no trying to help me with. Has anyone experienced this?

I will keep you posted on my story.

Magnús

p.s.
I don't miss my burger and coffee at all, by the way  :o

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Magnus on Aug 3rd, 2012 at 11:01am
I want to have as much out here if it makes a difference for anybody.  [smiley=gossip.gif] Im always forgetting something.
My Homeopath said stay out of formalin aswell, its in cosmetics, i think they even put it in cigarettes. I smoke only rolling tobacco and i dont think they put it in them. Then eat Sardinas and Eggs is ok yet stay out of Tunafish and Beer.(rats)

Thats it!
Sorry, just wanted to get this out aswell. For allergic - hormones reasons maybe and such.

Magnús

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brooke on Aug 6th, 2012 at 12:27pm
I am reading your posts and finding it so interesting! I keep trying to seek difference answers as to why I was a healthy normal 23 year old girl one day and the next having 4-6 horrible pain attacks a day for months at a time. I have been on this for a week now. I have been PF for 5 days. I adjusted it a little because of the different vitamins I found. I take a k2 combo that has 2000iu of d3 so I take 2 of those and one of the 5000iu ones. The only one I havent been taking everyday is the fish oil because I accidently left it in the car and it melted into one huge ball. (going to replace it in the next day or 2) Here is what I have been taking though: daily amounts :

d3 9400 IU
k2 90 mcg
calcium 666 mg
magnesium 266 mg
zinc 10 mg

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 6th, 2012 at 2:13pm
Hey Brooke,

That's wonderful news.  Your time to a favorable response after starting this regimen is consistent with the data collected from the anti-inflammatory survey plotted out below:

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This data is still limited and preliminary, but it's starting to indicate a clear trend.  We need more CH'ers who have experienced either a significant reduction in the frequency and intensity of their CH or they've been on this regimen for at least a month to take this survey.

The goal is at least 100 completed surveys...  So far we've only 45 and some have skipped the questions on response times.

Try to see your PCP for the lab test for serum 25(OH)D.

The Omega 3 Fish Oil acts as an anti-inflammatory and studies have shown it helps lower total cholesterol and blood pressure.

You might want to consider starting the rest of your family on this regimen..  The potential health benefits are hard to pass up.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Aug 6th, 2012 at 9:35pm
Hi Batch et al...
Sorry I've been awol a few days.  I was having more and more of the CH's and so on Saturday 8/4...i went onto the prednisone.  I'm still doing the VitD3 Batch and I've increased it to 20K IU per day in addition to the prescribed 50K IU per week; so 70K per week.
Now, the Prednisone has never worked great by itself (ever since Sansert became extinct) I've had mixed results.  And sure enough the last couple days have been just a steady ache (albeit not too bad..maybe a KIP 2 max).  I did just get a prescription filled today for the Imitrex pens...they only will fill 8 per month.  UGH...I already used the 3 sample Pens Doc gave me last week!

Ok, so I'm comitted to staying with this VitD3 regimen also.  Batch, I counted up the Calcium I'm taking and it's a little over 1000 mg per day (via all the other stuff I take).  Is that too much?

And where do I find the survey?  Is it in this Thread?  If so, I'll go fill it out or do you have a link to it.

thanks all!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:08pm
Might be a dumb question, but is there a way to know if I already took this survey? I take so many surveys, it's sometimes hard to keep track.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 7th, 2012 at 1:46am
Hey Darrell,

Any word back on the lab test for 25(OH)D?  That's going to give you a ball park indication on your potential response time for this regimen.

As strange as this may sound, taking 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus the 50,000 loading dose once a week for a total of 120,000 IU/week is still a conservative dose.

Conservative that is, when you consider, some Relapsing Remitting Multiple Sclerosis (RRMS) sufferers take upwards of 350,000 IU/week for up to three months to control their RRMS. Moreover, they do this without any fear of vitamin D3 intoxication... but they do test for serum concentrations of 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH twice a month just to play it safe.

A 1,000 mg/day calcium is fine.  That's the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) from all sources for folks our age.

You can find the link to the anti-inflammatory Survey within the following post here at CH.com:

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Or you can just click on the following link.  It will take you directly to the survey:

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Darrell, you've only been on this regimen for a week... so give yourself enough time for a favorable response or one month on this regimen whichever occurs first before taking the survey.

Brew,  Good question...  We originally set up the survey so it would only accept one submitted input per CH'er.  This may have changed to allow CH'ers to update an originally submitted survey, but more than one survey per CH'er will be flagged so we don't double count.  Give it a try.

It's also important to answer as many of the questions in this survey as possible.  Be sure to comment on other methods of CH intervention you've tried.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by japanzaman on Aug 7th, 2012 at 8:09am
OK, so can we sticky this thread already? ::)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CarrieLundgren on Aug 8th, 2012 at 2:10pm
Hello Batch,

I have read through the entire thread on the D3 Regimen and all I can say is "thank you" for your information and knowledge on CH!

A little bit of background on me...
I'm 32 years old, female, started with my first cluster cycle eight years ago when I was 24 in 2004.  Next cluster cycle was two years ago in 2010 and now this third cluster cycle just started at the beginning of June of this year and is going on 9 weeks.  It is by far the longest cycle I've had yet.  I went on a 5 day course of prednisone which didn't stop the cycle.  I then went on a 20 day course of prednisone that didn't stop it.  I'm about 3 weeks since that last course of prednisone and still struggling.  My headache specialist here in WI wants me to go on another round of 20 day course of prednisone, but I'm just not convinced that it will stop the cycle and I am concerned that it might turn me from episodic to chronic.  I'm not sure if that is a valid concern or not.  About a month ago, I also tried to go on verapamil as a preventative, but had horrible side effects, so I stopped it.  I used 02 at a 15 flow rate to abort attacks.  I have also used Imitrex injections to stop attacks, but try to stay away from the triptans as much as possible.

I started taking the D3 regimen a couple of weeks ago.  I took a loading dose of 40,000 iu of D3 along with the other co-factors (thanks for the tip on Costco).  I then was taking 20,000 iu daily and that seemed to lessen my attacks.  I did this loading dose again at the start of the second week.  Over this past weekend, I reduced down to 10,000 iu and my attacks came back.  I had the 25 (OH) D lab (which was after I already started the regimen on my own) on Monday and it just came back at 54. 

Any thoughts on this value? 

For the first week and a half on the D3, I had back/trunk body aches.  I do not have that now and I have upped my D3 now back to about 20,000 iu daily and my attacks have stopped, but I still have the shadow.  I am thinking of increasing again. 

Doctors I have spoken with here are saying that Vitamin D3 deficiency is very rare and they pretty much think I'm crazy thinking that there is a link with this. 


Any thoughts or advice you might have would be greatly appreciated.  Living with CH is so challenging and frustrating since many do not even realize the lengths at which you might go to try to find relief...and many medical professionals do not have any knowledge of this rare disorder. 

Thanks,
Carrie

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 8th, 2012 at 4:22pm
Hey Carrie,

Welcome to CH.com.  Thanks for the informative intro, kind words and back brief on your experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen.

I'm not a doctor or a licensed nutritionist so my reply and comments are for information purposes only...  Bounce them off a physician you know and trust who is also familiar with your medical history.

I don't think you're crazy... and from the information provided by other CH'ers in this thread, it appears you're doing the right thing by taking 20,000 IU day vitamin D3... calcium and all the cofactors... The data in this thread also suggests you just haven't taken this regimen long enough as evidenced by your serum concentration of 25(OH)D. 

That data suggests a serum concentration of 25(OH)D of 54 ng/mL is still too low... but very promising after only two weeks...  The collective data in this thread suggests you need to get your 25(OH)D up into the "green zone" of 60 to 110 ng/mL in order to experience the benefits of this regimen.

IMHO, it appears the doctors you spoke with who claimed that a Vitamin D3 deficiency is very rare are sadly ill-informed and their claim is ludicrous.  Moreover, they may be need of some meaningful CME... 

Doctors and medical scientists at Boston University Medical Center, Boston, MA claim vitamin D3 deficiency is pandemic...  See the following link:

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Another good link to read on the vitamin D3 deficiency pandemic follows:

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You might want to print out copies of both abstracts and present them to the doctors you spoke with about this regimen the next time you see them...

You can also tell them that 76% of the 200 CH'ers who reported starting this regimen have experienced a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH and 64% of the 200 CH'ers are completely pain free... 

Empirical results like this exceed the highest possible placebo effect for a cluster headache preventative... so this is not a joke.. and you're not crazy.

In the mean time, data in this thread suggest you hang in there at your present vitamin D3 dose of 20,000 IU/day.  Most CH'ers who reported they've been completely pain free with no shadows for a few weeks, have dropped their vitamin D3 intake to 15,000 IU/day to see if that holds them in the pain free green zone...  Many of them have also found it helpful to see their PCP for another 25(OH)D lab test at that point..

Take care and thanks again for the great back-brief.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Aug 8th, 2012 at 8:59pm
Thanks Batch
The lab test was 28.1 ng/ml; you sent me some info regarding that reading the other day.  I'm suppose to go back and check again in 6 weeks.  I'm good with staying on the Regimen for a while and will wait on taking the survey for a month or so. 
thanks again!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CarrieLundgren on Aug 9th, 2012 at 10:06am
Thank you so much, Batch, and I totally understand that I am to use all this information provided and consult a physician...

I really had to beg my doctors to order the D3 lab for me, but thankfully they agreed.  Now, after getting the results of 54 back yesterday, I am still waiting for a call back from them.  I emailed and messaged and here I wait.  I am trying to get a referral to see an endocrinologist so that I can easily get D3 labs to make sure my levels are ok.

This cluster cycle has been tough because of a few factors...it's been so hot here this summer, the cycle is lasting so long and I have three kiddos age 6 and under that are home with me.

This morning was a rough one...started getting an attack while trying to get all three kiddos out the door for camp.  We were late because I had to chug a Red Bull and inhale some O2.  :(  Thankfully, it worked, but I am on the verge of another attack, so I'm currently sitting with the O2 flowing as I type this.

I am three weeks off the last course of prednisone and I keep considering starting it up again.  Do you have any information about this steroid contributing to making one turn from episodic to chronic?

I have been really having a tough time coping since no one "gets it" except the support on groups like this.  I'm thankful for these online resources. 

Hoping you are pain free,
Carrie


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:55pm
Hey Carrie,

Thanks for the update...  Sounds like you've got your hands full with the kids and heat...  I know the beast isn't making it any easier.  And thanks for understanding the "information purposes only" nature of my posts...  Discussing this regimen, even with physicians who are skeptics, may have the benefit of starting them thinking outside the box when they see the improvement in your condition.

It's good to hear you've got oxygen therapy available to abort your CH.  It's all I used for nearly five years after turning chronic.  My oxygen cylinder, 0-60 liter/minute regulator, demand valve, and O2PTIMASK™ kit are still sitting under a plastic bag where they've been since I developed and started the anti-inflammatory regimen in Oct of 2010.

Asking for a referral to see an endocrinologist is a great move.  If that turns out to be too long a wait, look for an Integrative or Homeopathic physician in your area. They're usually easier to see and they're up to speed on giving the body what it needs to heal itself rather than going after the symptoms with medications that may or may not prove effective, but usually carry side effects.

Regarding a link between a steroid taper and changing from episodic to chronic...  I'm not aware of any.  I'm also of the opinion that claims of a steroid taper breaking a cycle are likely confused with end of cycle.  I was on prednisone for nearly a year for another condition...  It worked, but nearly destroyed my endocrine system in the process.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CarrieLundgren on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:23pm
Thanks, Batch.

I intend on continuing the D3 regimen and hope I obtain some relief sooner than later.  I also agree that many physicians are ill-informed and skeptical, unfortunately.

With it being summertime, I desperately want to plan a vacation with my family, but feel like a prisoner to the beast currently.  I have also been experiencing different attack times the past three weeks since ending the prednisone.  Very unpredictable lately and that has me a bit anxious. 

I have also thought about confusing the prednisone taper with the end of the cycle.  Yet, it often provides relief from pain (had a few break thru attacks last time), yet the side effects are bothersome, but tolerable compared to the pain.  I guess I'm considering starting the prednisone taper again while I get my D3 levels up.  Not sure if that is a reasonable thought or not.  Just taking it one day at a time, trying to function as normally as possible. 

How long on the D3 regimen did it take for you to become pain free? 

I also am considering modifying my diet entirely.  I was eating very healthy (very little sugar, lots of greens, chicken/fish) until this cluster started and the prednisone "cravings" kicked in.  I was also recalling that I had my first really bad bout with gout before my second cluster cycle started.  I wonder if I have some ph issues going on, too. 

Your research and contribution to CH and this is so appreciated.  It is amazing the amount of information now on the web compared to when I first started out with CH.

Again, thank you...

Carrie

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 9th, 2012 at 2:37pm
Hey Carrie,

None of the CH'ers on this regimen have reported any real problems with a prednisone taper.  Talk to your PCP or neurologist about this.

As to how long it takes for a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH or going pain free... Most CH'ers on this regimen who had a favorable response and then when in for the lab test reported serum 25(OH)D concentrations between 60 and 110 ng/mL.

Given your last test was at 54 ng/mL, it would appear a favorable response is a few days to less than a week away. 

The only available data on response times for this regimen times comes from right here at CH.com and the anti-inflammatory regimen survey.  I posted a chart illustrating the distribution of response times from this survey in an earlier post.

So far, 80% of the CH'ers with a favorable response to this regimen, experienced relief by the end of the second week... The rest took upwards of a month.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CarrieLundgren on Aug 9th, 2012 at 8:07pm
Thanks, again, Batch.

I am going to hold out on taking the prednisone for as long as I can in hopes that the regimen will provide some relief.  I have been saying that I was going to "wait it out" each day for three weeks now...

I will keep you posted and will make sure to complete the survey once able.

Best,
Carrie

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brooke on Aug 14th, 2012 at 5:10pm
This has been life changing so far. I have been completely pain free. I will continue to update. I am not even taking as high of doses (I am a pretty small person though) and it has worked for me. Even if it stops working, the break has been a dream :).  I am forever greatful especially if this continues to work.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CarrieLundgren on Aug 14th, 2012 at 10:09pm
Hi Batch,

I have been getting some relief...shorter and less intense attacks...but still attacks.  The daily shadows are starting to ease up, too.

I have asked my primary doctor and my headache specialist doctor for a referral to an endocrinologist.  Neither would agree to it (HMO) since my Vitamin D3 level was in the normal range last week at 54.  I then called the patient advocate for our health system and she pretty much blew me off, too, since the doctors are trained professionals who have the proper training to determine if a patient needs to be referred to a specialist.  She said it sounds like I need to see a neurologist.  I've already been to them, had all the scans years ago, and they just push the toxic cocktail of meds as well.  :(  I even tried calling the endo office myself, but they wouldn't budge either.

I'm concerned about my levels, especially taking such high doses of D3.  I am beyond frustrated currently.  My husband is worried about me taking these mega doses of D3.  I'm at the point where trying anything is on the table because the pain is so bad.  I'm on week 10 of this cycle...longest one yet.

Do you know of any doctors that are on board with this D3 regimen?  It is so difficult even talking to a medical professional because most do not know what CH is, let alone understand it or have any compassion for this terrible disorder.

Hope you are well and pain free,
Carrie


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 15th, 2012 at 7:06pm
Hey Carrie,

I understand the problems you're facing.  Your doctors are quite correct, a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 54 ng/mL is normal. However, data provided by CH'ers here at CH.com suggests it's too low. 

All of the CH'ers who reported their 25(OH)D serum concentrations after going pain free, reported values of 60 to 110 ng/mL.  This data suggests the CH pain free "Green Zone" is 60 to 110 ng/mL. 

Accordingly, this data also suggests you still have a few days to go at your present intake of vitamin D3, before reaching the therapeutic serum concentration of 25(OH)D somewhere in the green zone.

Download and print the attached file and read it with your husband.  It's one of the latest studies on vitamin D3 dosing with 25(OH)D response by Garland and Heaney et al.  It also speaks to the safety of vitamin D3 intake up to 40,000 IU/day.

Regarding physicians who are up to speed on vitamin D3 dosing and who are also aware of the likely link between cluster headache and a vitamin D3 deficiency...  so far there are only two...  and I'm not going to be much help.  One is a professor of endocrinology at Creighton University Medical School...  and I'm not sure he still does clinical work. 

The other physician is a neurologist in Australia who became interested in this method of vitamin D3 therapy as a preventative for cluster headaches when one of his cluster headache patients went pain free in less than a week after starting the anti-inflammatory regimen.  He was interested enough to call me after an email exchange.

Seeing an endocrinologist might be a bit premature at this point.  I suggest this route only if a CH'er has elevated his or her 25(OH)D well into the green zone for a couple weeks with no change in CH patterns.

I'll shoot you a pm with some additional information.

Take care and hang in there.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=12928garland021811.pdf (181 KB | 4 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JSCartier on Aug 16th, 2012 at 4:12am
Heya Everyone,

Back from a long time of chaos and life :)

Started this regimen yesterday and we will see how it works. 

lets see ...

10,000 ui D3 .. ok
Ca/mg/z ... ok
2000 mn fish oil (600 EPA/DHA)  ...check

And a mess of Liquid Lemons to wash it down ( cant stand lime - anything )

We will see how it goes

BTW! Thank you to Batch and all the rest for a lot of info and hard work on this :)

PFDAN and may the sandman visit ya un-disturbed !

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 16th, 2012 at 4:32pm
Hey JS,

Welcome to the vitamin D3 group.  Try to see your primary care physician to get the lab test for 25(OH)D. 

Knowing your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite will take a lot of the guessing out of response time.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Aug 18th, 2012 at 3:48pm
Not sure if this has been posted but here's a deal to get your 25(OH) tested at a local lab for $62.67:

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jacey on Aug 20th, 2012 at 3:55am
Hi Batch,
I 've been following the D3 regime since about May although only take 5,000 D3 as my levels came back at 73 before I started the regime.  My homeopathic practitioner has also added Starflower oil to the mix.  So far so good then bizarrely 2weeks ago I had a sudden flare.  Not a shadow but a full blown eye watering hit which only lasted 15 mins.  Then nothing for 2 weeks until yesterday when I got another! Same time of day and slightly longer.  I've upped my fish oil to 4,000 and just wondering if anyone else has had anything similar.  It felt like a proper hit but I've had no shadows before or after and my usual cluster runs January to May.  I did have Iririts in May too which is an inflammation of the eye itself, strangely on the same side as the clusters but Drs couldn't put the two together.  They did, however, say it would last up to 6 months and was gone in 2 weeks! I put this down to the anti inflammatory regime. Just wondered if the odd hits were proper clusters.  They responded to the Imigran nasal spray almost straight away.  Any ideas?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 20th, 2012 at 1:11pm
Hey Jacey,

Thanks for the update...  Your post brings up some interesting possibilities...

While a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 73 ng/mL is above middle of the normal response range for this lab test at 30 to 100 ng/mL...  the cluster headache response range reported to date is between 60 to 110 ng/mL.  That's the "green zone" where some CH'ers respond to a serum concentration of 25(OH)D at 60 ng/mL and others need higher concentrations up to 110 ng/mL to go PF or have a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH.

Here's my take on your spurious eye-watering CH attack out of the blue... 

1.  Your average 25(OH)D serum concentration may be a bit too low...  i.e., a higher daily intake of vitamin D3 is likely needed.

2. For some reason(s), the rates at which we metabolize vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D3 (calcidiol) and on to 1,25(OH)2D3, the active metabolite (read the hormone called calcitriol), and the rate at which we consume calcitriol appear to vary throughout the year. 

This can result in an imbalance where calcitriol concentrations drop to the tipping point where we start having CH attacks...  albeit usually mild and short in duration.

3.  The body has built-in mechanisms that limit the cutaneous production of vitamin D3 and its metabolism to 25(OH)D in order to prevent an overdose due to too much exposure to the UV-B in sunlight. 

Accordingly, there may be times when a normal intake of 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is mediated downward by exposure to sunlight and this control mechanism resulting in insufficient calcidiol and or calcitriol to prevent CH.

10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is normally sufficient to keep me pain free... However during the spectacular summer (July - August) we've been having here in the Puget Sound area of Washington state ...  I've had to up my intake of vitamin D3 to 15,000 IU/day to stay PF.

Moreover, if I'm late in taking my daily dose of vitamin D3...  I start feeling the onset of a CH around 30 hours from the previous dose.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jacey on Aug 20th, 2012 at 6:04pm
Thanks for the response and yet again the info is brilliant!  It makes complete sense as the weather has been great and I've been outside more than usual which would explain the possible downturn in d3 levels.
I will up the dose and see if it works.  It's amazing how many elements work together or even against each other with CH.  I am intending to do another serum test shortly so it will be very interesting to see the results.
Thanks again.  8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 20th, 2012 at 6:57pm
Hey Jacey,

Good move on upping the dose of vitamin D3 and going in for another lab test for 25(OH)D...

I've a spare ZRT home blood spot test kit for 25(OH)D and will do the same thing in a few weeks...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Aug 22nd, 2012 at 1:30pm
Dear all.

I am into my cycle....Coming every two years and stays for about 2.5 months.

I was hospitalized last week because I simply could not...COULD NOT....had this pain anymore.

The first time in my life  I used an O2....Really! It Helps!

I guess throughout the 20 years I was misdiagnosed and I just wonder how many men and women around the world are misdiagnosed.

I read this thread and Batch simply provides hope. Hope to eliminate the beast from coming again by simply consuming natural stuff.

I bought:
D3 (drops);
Solomon oil (Omega3);
Calcium Citrate with d3;
Calcium and magnesium and zinc;

Somehow, I can NOT find one tablet that includes the Calcium citrate + d3 +  magnesium + zinc as one tablet.

Is it OK Batch to use the two separate tablets??

I am starting.....and I will update you all.

Batch, you have no idea what you do here.....you provide hope and smile to all of us.

Thank you.

God bless,
Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 22nd, 2012 at 1:52pm
Hey Joseph,

Welcome to the vitamin D3 group and thanks for the kind words.  The simple answer is yes, separate tablets are fine.

You can find the complete list of supplements for the anti-inflammatory regimen, suggested doses, dosing strategy, interactions and contraindications at the following link:

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Please discus this regimen with your PCP or the physician who prescribed you oxygen therapy and ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D.  Knowing your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite will give you a better idea how long it will take for you to respond.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Aug 22nd, 2012 at 3:05pm
Hi Batch.

Thank you for your quick response.

Yes, I did a blood test 2 weeks ago AND...My Vitamin D 25 (OH) is 10(TEN!!!)ng/ml  where the normal values should be between 20 to 100.

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 22nd, 2012 at 4:16pm
Hey Joseph,

Thanks for posting your serum 25(OH)D concentrations...  From data collected here at CH.com you'll need a serum concentration of 25(OH)D anywhere between 60 and 110 ng/mL in order to have a favorable response to your CH.

Take a look at the vitamin D3 dosing strategy for the fastest possible response.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TarHeels4Me on Aug 23rd, 2012 at 9:28pm
Hello Batch et at...
Back after a couple weeks.  Here's the latest.  As noted before my D3 level was 28Ng/ML (taken on 7/30).  I started the D3 regimen (although just realized early last week i was missing the mag).  I started with 10K per day first 4 days; then I took the 50K presciption D3 on 5th day; and then upped to 20K per day for 5 day's then 70K; then 20K for 5 days; then 80K for one day; then it's been 30K per day since.  So I've really ramped up.  And this past Monday (8/20/12) had my D3 taken again and it's up to 89.7NG/ML.

That really surprised me that it jumped so high so quickly.  Now...I also had to ask Doc for Verapamil because the Pred was not stopping the headaches.  My cycle started on July 15th and I've had a headache at least once per day every day except 5 days.

I also got an O2 tank; 15ML flow rate with the non rebreathable mask; and while it doesn't KNOCK out the attack it certainly lowers the intensity.  I don't know if I can get a 25ML or higher.....the doc seemed to frown on that and the respiratory supply store doesn't even carry anything higher than 15ML.  Maybe I need a signed order from the President or Congres....oh wait...I won't go there!   :o

I still think it's early in the process to know the effect of the D3 regimen especially since I'm taking both Pred/Verap....but I have looked over the data since July 15th and I am fairly confident that the severity of my attacks have been much less severe than other cycles. 

Now Doc wants me to go to 30K D3 three times a week.  Batch...what do you think?  I would sorta like to stay at 20 or 30K per day for a while and have it checked again in say 3 weeks or so...

I also need to read more about the anti-imflamatory diets and the PH.  I just saw that Sweet n Low is very acid generating.....WOW....I only have like 6 to 8 packs of that a day on average!!!!  I have tried very hard to do better with the diets.  I'm eating only salads basically...not very much carbs and rarely any red meat now....so if nothing else maybe after I get off the Prednisone and lose my Miss Piggy figure...I'll at least drop some lbs!!!

And a curiosity question for you Batch....in the GOMBS...Onions?!?!?  I have always heard that onions (raw/green) cause migraines...so I've refrained from eating them for years.  Although i do have onion rings (Fried) ocassionally...love them!!   8-)

And finally....if Verapamil is a Calicum Channel Blocker; why do we need so much calcium?  I'm confused on that one.

Much love to all you guys and gals for all that you are doing and going through to help everyone!!!   :)

Darrell

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Aug 24th, 2012 at 3:05am
Hi Batch.

While reading the thread, I am quiet confused when to take what...?

Shall I take both regimen in the morning before/while/after breakfast? Or... Shall I take the first regimen in the morning and the second on other meal? Lemonade on all meals? etc...?

Can you please direct me on this issue.

Thank you very much Batch.
Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SMO1958 on Aug 24th, 2012 at 6:13am
Hi, Im Adams Mum. I have been here before but not for sometime.  Adam is now 20 and has CH since 15.  Adam's cycle is usually Oct-March but the beast has hit early this year in August.  Adam is currently on the Vit D3 10,000 with Omega 3 3 capsules 3000 and is only getting shadows at the moment. I am waiting for the calcium citrate with mag and boron and a seperate zinc tablet.  So far so good. He can abort shadows quickly with 15ltr 02.  I would like to thank Batch very much for all his hard work and wish all CH sufferers PF days. Thank you. :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brooke on Aug 24th, 2012 at 12:12pm
STILL PF!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 24th, 2012 at 2:56pm
Hey Joseph,

Good question.  Several studies have indicated serum vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D levels start rising within a few hours after taking oral vitamin D3.  The final metabolite and hormone, 1,25(OH)2D3, (Calcitriol), takes a little longer. 

Accordingly, taking the complete regimen in the morning with the lemonade would appear optimum to have the highest possible concentration of all three during the peak headache hours of 8 pm through 6 am.

There's also no problem with splitting the vitamin D3 dose taking half in the morning and half 12 hours later.

Given your low starting serum concentration of 25(OH)D, I'd take 10,000 IU vitamin D3 in the morning and 10,000 IU 12 hours later as long as you're tolerating this regimen.  Taking a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week will also speed up the process of building 25(OH)D levels a lot faster.

The following chart illustrates the increase in rate of response between 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 (dashed line):

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A starting serum concentration of 25(OH)D at 10 ng/mL will shift these response curves down and that would appear to add at least a week to the time required to reach 60 ng/mL at the starting concentration used in this chart.

The really good news is the lower the starting 25(OH)D serum concentration, the faster and higher the response to vitamin D3 dose.

Assuming an average response rate, your 25(OH)D serum concentration will take 30 days to reach 60 ng/mL at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and two weeks at 20,000 IU/day.

A 50,000 IU loading dose once a week will cut two to three days off the time to reach 60 ng/mL at 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  Again... these are average response times and there are several factors that can mediate the response rate up or down.

Hope this answers your question.

Take care and please keep us posted.

Adam's Mum, thanks for the initial update...  It's good to hear Adam is starting to respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Do keep us posted.

Brooke,  awesome news...  It's a great feeling isn't it...

Take care all...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Aug 24th, 2012 at 4:36pm
Thank you very much Batch.

Into it... and I will update!!!

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Aug 25th, 2012 at 5:54pm
G'Day Folks

Haven't been around for a while. My Father passed away which necessitated my travelling to South Africa. Very sad.
On a positive note though I am still completely PF. Despite time zone changes, climate changes and terrible personal anguish I have had not so much as a shadow! I have stabilised the D3 at 5000iu/day for now which seems to be doing the trick, everything else constant as per Batch's rules. At the same time have cut back the Verapamil to 360mg/day.
I was amazed when I got back and tallyed up to find that I am now 40 days PF and going strong.
Cheers,

Wayne

BTW. I found it interesting that in South Africa, where 2000iu D3 capsules used to be available, the maximum allowable is now 500iu.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 25th, 2012 at 8:23pm
Hey Wayne,

Sorry to hear about your loss...  These things happen...  and none of us gets out of here alive...  So it's the good times to remember most that you spend with family and friends... and the quality of life you strive for that makes it all worth while.

Glad to hear you're still PF.  I found a good survey taken by the Point Institute that essentially says 2,000 to 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is a good average maintenance dose... and to get tested regularly for 25(OH)D...

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As you can see the big US government technocrats at IOM low-ball the amount of vitamin D3 we need...  BTW, three of the members of the IOM that made these recommendations come from academia as tenured professors of biochemistry and nutrition...  The fourth is a full time government bureaucrat from DHHS...  None of the four have ever treated a patient or done any clinical work...

They all overlooked several Level A RCTs that clearly called for higher daily doses of vitamin D3...

Of course the data we've been collecting here at CH.com and from the online survey of the anti-inflammatory regimen points to the results of vitamin D3 intake that the dose that keeps your serum concentration of 25(OH)D ≥ 60 ng/mL or pain free which ever comes first is the maintenance dose we CH'ers need to take...

It's also becoming apparent from several CH'ers including myself, that certain times of the year, the maintenance dose we've taken for most of the year won't be sufficient and more vitamin D3/day will be needed. 

I suspect these periods might just coincide with higher concentrations of airborne allergens tree, grass and weed pollen as well as mold spores...  and the amount of time we spend outside breathing them. 

I've a chart that shows they all peak in late August and early September...

Moreover, at the doses of vitamin D3 we take and the serum 25(OH)D we maintain, taking in additional UV-B from sunlight appears to trigger a built-in regulating mechanism that down regulates the metabolism of vitamin D3 all the way to 1,25(OH)2D3...  so we may need additional vitamin D3 for this as well...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Aug 26th, 2012 at 8:37am
Hi Batch.

Some updates.

I am into the 5th regimen day.

In general, when the beast starts, I feel a strong pressure on my left side; Head, left eye, nose, around the upper jaw. I sweat like crazy and it is a hell of pain.

Somehow, in the past 2 days, I feel pressure in the nose area and above the teeth ONLY. AND...I do feel some relief.

From attacks every 2-3 hours a day, I get  2-3 attacks per 24 hours! Mostly when I am sleeping.

O2 helps, but right now, with this special "JUST NOSE AREA",  breathing out hot air from the lungs through the nose calm the situation.

I take my regimen in the morning.

My beast started on Jun/26/2012 and today is exactly two months. Usually it takes 2.5 to 3 months to "say goodbye".

What do you say Batch? ::)

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 26th, 2012 at 2:10pm
Hey Joseph,

Off hand, given your starting 25(OH)D serum concentration, I'd say your response to the anti-inflammatory regimen after five days is very promising...   The drop in frequency is good and reading between the lines... it appears the severity of your hits has dropped as well.

That said, as you're 60 to 80% through your "normal" CH cycle, the drop in frequency of your hits could very well be signalling an early end of cycle and not a response to this regimen.  That of course depends on how your cycles normally end...  with a bang or a whimper...

Being the optimist who sees the glass as being half full...  I'll venture this regimen is working...  so keep on trucking...  and don't change a thing...  One way or the other it looks like you could be completely PF in as little as two weeks... if not a little sooner.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Aug 26th, 2012 at 2:13pm

Batch wrote on Aug 26th, 2012 at 2:10pm:
Being the optimist who sees the glass as being half full... 

And being the pragmatist, I see room for more bourbon.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 31st, 2012 at 1:13pm
In case there was any doubt that vitamin D3 works...

Over 100 Vitamin D Intervention clinical trials were added in the first 7 months of 2012...

None for us CH'ers just yet...  but the link below should give you a warm fuzzy feeling about the anti-inflammatory regimen...

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You can spend hours browsing it...

Then download the attached...  It says... by inference... we're on the right track taking vitamin D3 to control CH...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=er_2012-1000_full.pdf (382 KB | 5 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Aug 31st, 2012 at 5:02pm
As you know, Batch, the D3 vs CH has not been the one sided battle I hoped it would be, although D3 must be declared the winner. But I can say one thing for sure:  After 14 full months with 5000+ I.U, mg, ca, zn etc every day, influenza and common cold just doesn't seem to bite. And that is radically new. Really.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 31st, 2012 at 7:07pm
What was your last lab test for 25(OH)D?   If your serum 25(OH)D is below 60 ng/mL (150 nmol/L), I would jack up the vitamin D3 dose to 15,000 IU/day for a few weeks to see what happens... then drop back to 10,000 IU/day.

If you haven't added vitamin A at RDA (at least 3,500 IU/day)... give that a try.

Neither Joyce or I have had a cold or flu since starting this regimen in Oct/Dec 2010...  and we've had a house full of crouping, sneezing, runny-nose grand kids all over us on several occasions trying their darnedest to infect us...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Aug 31st, 2012 at 10:29pm
I haven't tested ior 25(OH)D in as while, but the latest (jan) was  +200 (nmol/L = +73ng/L )

I belive my current 25(OH)D-level is somewhere between 200 and 250 nmol/L.  For the time being, I am CH free. Vitamin A is well covered by food.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 31st, 2012 at 11:21pm
You're clearly in the 25(OH)D green zone...  Sorry...  I misunderstood your post and thought you were having a burn through...

Here's to healthy diets...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 1st, 2012 at 12:05am

Batch wrote on Aug 31st, 2012 at 7:07pm:
Neither Joyce or I have had a cold or flu since starting this regimen in Oct/Dec 2010...  and we've had a house full of crouping, sneezing, runny-nose grand kids all over us on several occasions trying their darnedest to infect us...


I too have escaped all the cold and flu bugs going around, especially over the last few months here with all the winter bugs around, with lots of people at work catching them, plus flying twice a week too. Normally I get every bug going.

Maybe there is more to this vitamin D3 than just CHs?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 1st, 2012 at 5:11am
Mike,

There sure is...  a lot more...

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Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AubanBird on Sep 1st, 2012 at 5:57am
when i first started the D3 regimine, i had been getting hit on average 2-3 times a day for a couple weeks and would then have a week or two rest.  before that, the breaks were a lot longer in between episodes, which were usually less than a month long.  the D3 pretty much stopped them in their tracks for a while.

i think i was going chronic back then.  the final transition into chronic happened while i was deployed.  i think the fact that i didtn have a day/night schedule for half a year played a part in that.  while i was in iraq though, the D3 regimine became less and less effective.  it still helped a lot, but i was getting 4-5 hits a day at around kip 3-6.  a few times our patrols would last a lot longer than expected, and i would miss a few day or two of D3.  when i got back from those missions and tried to sleep, i would wake up with a kip 8-10.  after i got back, the frequency juump to about 8 hits a day, with the first nightly hit being the strongest.  it wasnt untill i had gone two months without sleeping for more than 30-45 minutes at a time that it finaly caught up with me.  one morning i wouldnt wake up, and my wife beat on my chest and slapped me in the face, trying to wake me up.  all the way to the emergency room.  thats when they scheduled me to see Dr Finkle, a prominant headache specialist here in NC.  he prescribed me the "chronic coctail".

i am on 900 mg of lithium and 480mg of verapamil now, and they have pretty much sent the beast running.  i have had two headaches in the last 2 months.  i started backing down on the D3(was taking 15000iu) since my blood levels came back good on vitamin d.  still no headaches.

i dont know how relevant all that is, but i figured that i would share my experiences.  i could rarely take the rest of the supplements in iraq, so maybe that was why it started to lose its effectiveness.  maybe it was the 60+ hour long patrols where i was literaly chewing on the buttstock of my rifle to stay awake.  maybe it was just because the beast was morphing again.  who knows

if i ever switch back to being episodic, or if the headaches come back, ill boost the dosage back up and see what happens.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 1st, 2012 at 3:33pm
Bird,

First off...  Thank you for your service...  Thank you also for the detailed update...

There was a time or two when I flew combat missions with a hangover headache...   Usually the result of an early morning Alert-5 launch after pulling out of a port call where we overstressed on too much alcohol...  It wasn't pleasant... and the old pilot's adage of 24 hours bottle to throttle ate away at me the entire time... and for days to follow...

I can't imagine what it must have been like going on patrol and getting hammered with CH, when my entire focus would have been to get the bad guys... and come back in one piece, no holes and nothing hung...  My hat's off to you my friend...  That's above and beyond the call to duty in my book.

I've been seeing a handful of cases where CH'ers like you, who had an initial favorable response to the vitamin D3 regimen started having "burn through" hits...  Most of them reported spending more time outside in direct sunlight.

This phenomenon appears to be related to the body's natural control mechanisms that prevent vitamin D3 overdose from cutaneous production and continued metabolism as a result of extended exposure to sunlight. 

What appears to be happening with CH'ers taking oral vitamin D3 at the doses we take, and who would normally maintain a serum concentration of 25(OH)D in the green zone (60 to 110 ng/mL), is that the control mechanism cuts in and significantly alters vitamin D3 metabolism by making an inactive metabolite that's pumped over the side in urine... instead of making the active metabolite and hormone, 1,25(OH)2D3.

This theory is contrary to the conventional wisdom that says oral vitamin D3 and cutaneous vitamin D3 produced from exposure to the UVB in sunlight are additive...

I've been having a similar experience with this phenomenon this summer.  The normal intake of 10,000 IU/day, calcium and all the cofactors wasn't hacking it... 

I could feel the tell-tail symptoms of an approaching hit so started increasing the vitamin D3 in 5,000 IU/day increments.

In less than a week, I was up to 30,000 IU/day vitamin D3 in order to remain PF...

Unfortunately it's going to take a dedicated study to verify my theory with tests for 1,25(OH)2D3, PTH and some other enzymes...  The test for 25(OH)D will be insufficient as the serum concentration of this metabolite is likely still in the green zone and it's entirely possible the control mechanism is cutting in to prevent it's metabolism to the active metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3.

I've alerted Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D. about this phenomenon.  Robert is professor of endocrinology at Creighton University School of Medicine... He is also one of the Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy... I haven't had word back from him as yet...

I'm happy to hear the "chronic cocktail" helped...

What was your actual serum concentration of 25(OH)D?  For CH'ers to remain pain free of their CH...  the normal concentration is anywhere between 60 to 110 ng/mL.

Take care and again thank you for your service.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by palm on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 6:13pm
Just a thought about the fish oil . . .

There is significant (but not yet FDA conclusive) scientific evidence that shows omega 3 (ie fish oil) can reduce cholesterol.

Lower cholesterol reduces blood pressure, which could in effect constrict blood vessels, resulting in less pressure on the trigeminal nerve. (vasoconstrictors like Cafergot work well for me)

I've been taking 1000mg fish oil daily before seeing this, and it doesn't seem to help. I guess I can up it to 3g as suggested in the OP. I already get plenty of sunlight down at the pool  8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 8:14pm
Hey Palm,

They put me on 3000 mg/day Omega 3 Fish oil and 500 mg/day calcium to get my BP, total cholesterol, and lipids down shortly after starting on sirolimus, (rapamune), an immunosuppressant I was taking as part of an RCT at NIH in an attempt to reprogram my immune system to keep my retinas from rejecting my body. 

I also changed my diet to include more greens, less red meat adding more chicken and fish.  A little more exercise helped as well...

Long story made short... it all worked...  My BP, total cholesterol and lipids all dropped back into the green zone in less than a month... even while taking the sirolimus, which has a known side effect of elevating total cholesterol and lipids.   The alternative was to go on statins.  Neither my doctor or I wanted to do that...

There are a couple RCTs, one recently published in Korea, indicating Omega 3 Fish Oil increases vitamin D3 absorption and it also appears to increase its metabolism to 1,25(OH)2D3, the active metabolite and hormone.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by palm on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 8:27pm
@Batch
I found that exercise has zero effect on my CH. I took up intense weight lifting for over a year, but with zero effect.

My cholesterol has always been borderline too high because of my high protein diet, but I eat a lot of tuna fish (also high in omega 3) in addition to the supplements.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Sep 4th, 2012 at 7:33am
Hi Batch.

Some updates as promised.

I am on my 12 regimen day.

I am happy to say that my beast intensity is close to KP 1 - to 3. I have like 1 to 2 attacks per day from almost 10-12 a day prior taking your regimen.

The attacks now are lighter...much much lighter...

I feel like my body tries to "take out" the beast = Now, my pain is above the left (jaw) teeth and sometimes in the nose, compared to a crazy pain through out my entire left (head) side before starting the regimen.

I am still not fully PF but had  2-3 nights with no pain at all. :)

Whether it is my ending cycle or...your regimen...I feel it is the regimen!  ;)

Batch, as you have so much knowledge about CH I like to ask you few questions if I may:

1) Why oxygen helps in terms of anatomy/body reaction? and why, especially on high pressure?

2) Why the Calcium Citrate is so important to take and not using d3 and omega3 only?

Thank you very much Batch.

I'll keep you posted.
God bless,
Joseph.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 4th, 2012 at 4:11pm
Hey Joseph,

Thanks for the update...  Off hand, I'd say you're starting to respond to this regimen...

Good questions too... but my question for you is how much vitamin D3 are you taking daily? 

With a starting 25(OH)D serum concentration of 10 ng/mL, it could take as long as two months at an intake of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to get your concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite up to 60 ng/mL.  That's the lower threshold of the green zone (60-110 ng/mL) where CH'ers who respond to this regimen have a favorable response.

If you've been on the basic anti-inflammatory regimen at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 along with the 2000 mg/day Omega 3 Fish Oil, 500 mg/day calcium (the calcium citrate tablets formulated with the other basic cofactors: 80 mg/day magnesium, 10 mg/day zinc and boron) for 12 days, and you've had no problems, you may want to try like several other CH'ers have...  an increased dose of 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 with a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week. 

As high a weekly dosing schedule as this sounds... 190,000 IU/week vitamin D3 is safe...  It's also well below the 350,000 IU/week (average of 50,000 IU/day) vitamin D3 you would need to take for at least 12 weeks to reach the lower threshold of vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL 25(OH)D... This condition would be clinically indicated by serum and urine calcium concentrations above normal.

This increased dosing strategy will build 25(OH)D levels much faster and hopefully get you into the green zone with a more favorable response at a serum concentration of 60 to 110 ng/mL in less time.

When you've experienced a cessation of CH attacks or a significantly reduced frequency and severity of attacks for at least a week, you can throttle back to 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 as a maintenance dose.

Keep the cofactors at the original dose.

As to your questions...

1.  The reason for the higher oxygen flow rates that support hyperventilation (25 to 45 liters/minute) is simple but likely not obvious unless you're a student of respiratory physiology.

Most neurologists and CH'ers assume it's the 100% oxygen inhaled resulting in an increased arterial partial pressure of oxygen above normal that aborts the cluster headache.

In fact, it's the increased arterial partial pressure of oxygen above normal AND a decrease in the arterial partial pressure of CO2 below normal that aborts CH faster and more reliably than the lower oxygen flow rates. 

Flow rates that support hyperventilation are also very safe...  There are a lot of old wives tales about people passing out at high oxygen flow rates...  For otherwise healthy people with CH, they're not true.

I've prayed to pass out during this method of oxygen therapy when I got to the oxygen late and the beast had a head start... it never happened... 

In five years using this method of oxygen therapy at an average of 3 times a day...  I've never passed out... nor have I seen reports of any other CH'ers having problems with higher flow rates...  I'm also 68 and still here...

Why is a lower partial pressure of CO2 important during oxygen therapy? 

You lower the arterial partial pressure of CO2 by hyperventilating...  breathing faster and deeper than needed.  In doing this, you're essentially blowing off CO2 faster than your body generates it through normal metabolism... 

This pushes your system into voluntary respiratory alkalosis...  In other words you've intentionally hyperventilated long enough to raise the alkalinity of arterial blood.

This accomplishes two other important physiological conditions.  Blowing off more CO2 than normal lowers the acid content of the blood making it more alkaline (a higher pH).  This stimulates the vasoconstriction needed to abort the CH. 

A higher pH also increases blood hemoglobin's affinity for oxygen to the point where it carries up to 11% more oxygen. This results in a super-oxygenated flow of blood to the brain further increasing vasoconstriction...

The net effect is faster and more reliable aborts with oxygen therapy.

A couple things happen when you reach respiratory alkalosis...  Most of us will experience the symptoms of paresthesia...  a very slight tingling or prickling of the fingertips, lips or back of the neck.  Some of us also experience a slight dizziness...  I lean against a wall if I get dizzy.

Both of these symptoms of respiratory alkalosis are very normal and strange as it may sound, they are your friend.  They tell you you're getting the fastest abort possible with oxygen therapy... 

Why too much CO2 (an elevated arterial partial pressure of CO2) makes oxygen therapy ineffective...

If you're like most of us, when the CH pain reaches 6 to 8 on the 10 point headache pain scale, you're unable to stand still.  Most of us do the CH 2-step or dance.  Some of us pace in circles or rock back and forth. 

This physical activity generates more CO2 and the body's response is to the elevated CO2 is to breath faster to keep CO2 levels in the normal range.  Too much CO2 also triggers vasodilation throughout the body to increase blood flow to the lungs.

Here's the kicker...  If your level of physical activity is greater than sitting motionless and you're doing the CH 2-step, pacing or just rocking back and forth...  You'll need a volume of lung ventilation equal to 25 liters/minute or higher (a minute volume of 25 liters or greater) just to maintain normal CO2 levels...

However, if you constrain your lung ventilation to a minute volume of 15 liters (a flow rate of 15 liters/minute) with a non-rebreathing oxygen mask... and you have any physical activity above being completely at rest, you'll be unable to cast off sufficient CO2 to maintain normal levels...  As a result, your arterial partial pressure of CO2 rises above normal and vasodilation increases.  That's the exact opposite of what you want to happen with oxygen therapy...

This triggers an uncontrollable urge to breath faster but as your respiration is now limited or constrained to 15 liters/minute flow rate by the regulator, you'll start feeling increased anxiety and possibly panic attacks... even though you're still breathing 100% oxygen...

Under these conditions, an abort with oxygen therapy may not be bpossible or the time to abort will be greater than 20 minutes...

I know that was a long-winded answer.  However, I've found that once CH'ers understand why oxygen flow rates that support hyperventilation are safe and far more effective with faster abort times than 15 liters/minute, they tend to have a much greater success rate aborting their CH with oxygen therapy.

2.  Why take Omega 3 Fish Oil, Calcium and the other cofactors: magnesium, zinc, vitamin K2, vitamin A and boron.

The simple answer is they're all needed to make vitamin D3 therapy more effective.

Aside from the well published cardiovascular benefits of Omega 3 Fish Oil and it's anti-inflammatory properties, recent studies have linked the intake of Omega 3 Fish Oil to increased production of 1,25(OH)2D3, the active vitamin D3 metabolite and hormone that appears to be effective as a CH preventative.

Calcium is essential any time we take vitamin D3.  The main reason is vitamin D3 pulls calcium from the gut and pushes it into the blood stream.  Under normal conditions, this excess calcium in the blood is passed into the bones to maintain and increase bone mineral density (BMD).  This process is tightly controlled by the parathyroid hormone to maintain serum calcium levels in a very narrow range.

If there is insufficient dietary calcium in the gut, vitamin D3 will take calcium from the bones...  Hence, a minimum intake of 500 mg/day calcium will ensure sufficient calcium for better BMD and good bone health.

Magnesium, zinc and boron aid in vitamin D3 metabolism in the liver and kidneys.

Vitamin K2 helps direct serum calcium to the bones.  It also helps prevent calcium plaque buildup in the arteries...

Vitamin A is the sleeper...  and likely a key enabler in the CH preventative role of vitamin D3...

The normal path of vitamin D3 metabolism that maintains calcium homeostasis starts in the liver where vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is metabolized into 25(OH)D (calcidiol), and from there to the kidneys where 25(OH)D is further metabolized to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol).

A number of studies indicate vitamin A (retinol) is essential for an alternate pathway for peripheral metabolism of 25(OH)D into the active metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3.  This takes place as needed when needed by affected cells  throughout the body. 

In this mode of metabolism, vitamin D3 acts as an autocrine signalling hormone unlocking genentic code within the cells DNA to produce whatever the cell needs to heal or reproduce itself.  This peripheral mode of vitamin D3 metabolism can only take place when 25(OH)D reaches affected cells in the presence of vitamin A.

Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D. uses the following example of peripheral vitamin D3 metabolism and genetic expression: 

A tuberculin bacillus lands on a cell within the lung's alveole and starts to infect it.  The cell says "I don't have the material to fight this bacillus...  but if I had some 25(OH)D and some vitamin A, I could use these two ingredients to make 1,25(OH)2D3 to unlock my genetic library for the recipe to make the appropriate tuberculosis anti-bodies..."

You can watch Dr. Heaney's presentation of Vitamin D: Nutrient, Not A Drug at the following link for a better explanation of this peripheral mode of vitamin D3 metabolism:

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Although we don't have the exact mechanism by which vitamin D3 acts as a CH preventative, it's looking more and more like this peripheral mode of vitamin D3 metabolism and genetic expression is responsible.

I hope this answers your questions without creating too much confusion...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Sep 5th, 2012 at 1:27pm
Hi Batch.

Thank you very much for your quick and thorough answer.

About your question = Yes, I do take 10,000 D3 IU a day.

I will increase it and will update you as always.

God bless us all.
Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Sep 8th, 2012 at 7:59pm
Hi Batch.

Updating....

I feel much better...Only one small and very light shadow in past 24 hours! ;)

By the way Batch, Prednisone is a very (if not the most) strong anti - inflammatory medical pill. How come that pill doesn't help many CH sufferers and D3 + Omega 3 do help?

All the best,
Joseph.
 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 9th, 2012 at 8:57am
Where on earth did you get the idea that prednisone doesn't help CH'ers? It's one of the most commonly used transitional drugs in our arsenal. It's big drawback is that you can only use it for short periods of time lest you end up with some really nasty side effects.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by japanzaman on Sep 9th, 2012 at 11:10am
I second that. I don't even want to think what certain periods of my life would have been like without pred. That being said, it definitely doesn't work for everybody, especially chronic sufferers.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Sep 10th, 2012 at 8:27am
Hi Brew.

I did not say Pred doesn't help at all = It does help others (each one of us is "wired" differently.

That being said, I know Pred doesn't help many, from lots of forums I read on the net, CHers people I personally know and...also for me.

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 10th, 2012 at 2:01pm
If I were pressed for an answer, I'd estimate that probably 80-85% of CH'ers respond positively to prednisone. If that doesn't constitute "many," so be it, I guess.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Sep 10th, 2012 at 2:15pm

Joseph BIG wrote on Sep 10th, 2012 at 8:27am:
Hi Brew.

I did not say Pred doesn't help at all = It does help others (each one of us is "wired" differently.

That being said, I know Pred doesn't help many, from lots of forums I read on the net, CHers people I personally know and...also for me.

Joseph.


Joseph,
You wrote "I know Pred doesn't help many"..are you really seriously challenging us professionals about Pred and CH's?

For those that Pred does not help, I question:
A) do not have CH's
B) taking too low of a dosage
and/or C) incorrect length of treatment. 

Joesph, FYI...most CH'ers do respond favorably to Pred. :)
However, Pred side effects is another issue. :(

This vitamin regimen has also proven very effective for many CH'ers..see previous postings.

Good luck with whatever you choose as treatment.

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Sep 10th, 2012 at 6:48pm
Dear all.

First and foremost, please, peace out. :)

I am not trying to question nor disagree prednisone doesn't help at all...to all.

It helps some and it does not help others.

I can say this sentence after reading lots of CH forums online, having discussions with close CH friends and... from my own experience with prednisone, it only lighted my CH pain during the time I took it, but, when I finished taking it (according to the decline amount/time my neurology prescribed it), the pain simply came back = BIG TIME!

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 10th, 2012 at 10:44pm

Quote:
...when I finished taking it (according to the decline amount/time my neurology prescribed it), the pain simply came back = BIG TIME!

Which is why it is called a transitional drug. It is intended to bridge the time from starting medical treatment until a long-term preventative (such as verapamil or lithium) can build to therapeutic levels in the bloodstream, usually 10-14 days.

It works just fine for the vast majority who use it and for that which it is intended.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JermCool on Sep 14th, 2012 at 5:39pm
It was a good run.   :'(

PF for over a year.  Last cycle was back in August 2011.  Based on this thread, I was religiously taking 2000 IU of D3 per day (the Spring Valley stuff from Walmart).  Once that cycle ended, I waited.  Based on history, I was expecting the next cycle to hit around Dec/Jan, then Mar/Apr.

It never came.

I was thrilled.  The wine flowed freely.  Then I think I made a mistake.  Last month, I bought some D3 soft-gels from Target instead of the normal pills from Walmart.  Two days ago the beast reappeared.  I was hoping - PRAYING - I was wrong, but I'm now on my third day with KIP-5s or higher every midnight and again at 6:00 AM.  The one bright point - at least I'm waking up for work in time.

Going to go back to the Walmart stuff and look at maybe upping the dosage to 5000 IU.  And I really wanted a beer this weekend.   :(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 15th, 2012 at 9:12am
Hey Jeremy,

Now you know the meaning of paradise lost...  Only in this case, it's not really lost...  you're just back at square one with respect to a depletion of your 25(OH)D reserves after stopping the vitamin D3 therapy.

I'll assume you've already gone back on this regimen...  The sooner you get your 25(OH)D levels back up to where you were PF the better.

The discussion now is how to get back up to a therapeutic level of 25(OH)D as soon as possible. 

I attended the F-8 Crusader reunion and Tailhook convention the week before last in Reno and met up with a squadron mate I'd not seen in nearly 40 years.

I mentioned that I was a cluster headache sufferer and that I was controlling this disorder with a regimen of vitamin D3 with all the cofactors and he lit up like a magnesium flare with a big smile...

It seems he had a bout with prostate cancer a little over four years ago...  He'd gone through surgery, chemo and radiation...  only is PSA numbers started climbing after all the treatments.

Like me, he did his own research on studies of alternative/homeopathic treatments for prostate cancer and hit on vitamin D3 therapy as his best bet to prevent its recurrence.

He's currently on a maintenance dose of 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 with a 50,000 loading dose once a week to maintain a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 90 ng/mL.  His PSA numbers have remained essentially nil for the last 4 years.

His therapeutic dose of vitamin D3 and the same cofactors we use for CH amounted to 50,000 IU/day for a month followed by 50,000 IU every other day for another month then he went in for the 25(OH)D lab test.

He's presently working with a close circle of friends on the same regimen who also suffered from prostate cancer.  Their results have been similar to his...  a low PSA and no recurrence...  None of them had any problems with his therapeutic dosing strategy...

Talk with your PCP about this dosing strategy when you go in for your 25(OH)D lab test...  and remember... even episodic CH'ers should stay on a continuous maintenance dose of vitamin D3 at ~7,000 to 10,000 IU/day along with the cofactors even when out of cycle...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on Sep 15th, 2012 at 1:34pm
A follow-up from a nearly refractory user:

I've not posted publicly on this for some time although Pete and I have corresponded periodically.  I am ecstatic at the results I've seen for so many with this regimen and I commend Pete and Niyas for their efforts in making this known.

My case has been not quite as good.  I've experienced a lot of relief taking 25,000 IU a day, but have not had complete relief like so many of you have had.  I've tried a variety of dosages, but every time I drop below 25,000, or I miss a dose I know it within hours.  At present I am in a high cycle with as many as 5 to 6 hits a day.  With Vit D most of these hits are only in the K4-7 range with most of them a K4/5. 

Bottom line, I know this program works!  Unfortunately, as in all other modalities I have tried, nothing has worked completely or for long.  Pete, keep up the good work.  You have been a Godsend to so many of us.  Niyas/Niels, thank you for putting up with all of the rejection and vitriol when you first brought this to our attention.

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Sep 15th, 2012 at 3:09pm
Hi,
 
I have been on this regimen for just over 1(one) YEAR ,just about. My doctors tell me (again) that this amount of time rules out any possible placebo effect…

I suffer from the extreme sort of CH and was diagnosed as intractable CCH
(Chronic Cluster Headache). 

Without medication I averaged up to 8 (and more) episodes a day at an average high pain level of kip 8 and an overall average pain level of Kip 6. The CH last 45 to 50 min. without abortive treatment, and are accompanied with all the classic CH symptoms we all know so well.

I have undergone treatment with almost all the schoolbook standards of care preventative / abortive medications for CH, and was a guinea pig to some new and "innovative" treatments. 

My candid assessment of all the CH preventative medications follows:
None were really effective, (for me).  Some provided limited relief for a while others did not.  The few that were relatively effective with moderate to good effectiveness in preventing my CH all carried unacceptable side effects. 

When it was clear I was essentially intractable to the standard CH preventative medications, my neurologists suggested blockades…   Starting with GLOA (Ganglionic Local Opioid Analgesy) using: Bupivacaine and Buprenorphine, providing me with some relatively effective moderate to good effectiveness.
Later occipital nerve block with betamethasone provided a week to 10 days, relief but nearly destroyed my endocrine system and it triggered a rapid bone mineral density loss, I still undergo a comprehensive treatment to “repair” the
“damage” done (see for more info. My posts about the GLOA).

One of the more "innovative" treatments included the implantation of a bi-lateral ONS (Occipital Nerve Stimulator). 

The ONS implant required months of "tuning" to load the most effective stimulation patterns, but even then I became a slave to the ONS as it required constant attention during the day to provide what I consider a moderately effective method of preventing painful attacks.  During the night while sleeping it was useless. By the time I woke up the pain was beyond control with ONS.  It has since been surgically removed as its overall day and night effectiveness was far less than I had expected.
 
None of the treatments provided a sustainable magic bullet, or gave me a full (even limited) success in preventing my CH…
 
The only treatment I have not tried is the CB alternative.  It's not that I don’t think it could provide me with some relief, it is just not compatible to my job requirements,

I do need my job… 
 
All treatments had one or more undesirable side effects, that made the risk-reward ratio unfavorable so the choice to continue or discontinue the treatment was made very easy.
 
The anti-inflammatory treatment (for me) is not a magic bullet.

BUT

I am under very close control and monitoring by doctors in the endocrinology department at KSSG (Kantonspital St. Gallen Switzerland). Even with this disciplined approach, I have the flexibility of adjusting doses of the “ingredients” and this has allowed me to achieve a steady (at the moment) 80-85% reduction in the frequency of my CH episodes.  It has also resulted in a significant (over 50%) reduction in the pain level of the remaining episodes… almost never going over Kip 5 anymore.

I achieve all of the above without any immediate apparent undesirable side effects. On the contrary, my bone density (monitored as well) is improving and my current overall sense of well-being is very good.

Next to working full time, and much more, I have picked up a new “kick” -
Paragliding with my older son (age 15), and it is so much fun….. nature from
Above in a slow motion….. the Swiss (Canton Appenzel) landscape is just a joule,  A bijou!!

I do have to compromise (in the last 2 month) and take a lower dose (D3) at the moment , due to some possible undiseiereble side effects in interaction with the
bone density Medication (Bon Viva (Ibandronic acid (INN) or ibandronate sodium (USAN)).

There is still the last bad habit – smoking - a habit I should give up and I might feel even more energetic…  and I do work hard on stopping, with the help of
The dedicated doctors in the Pain therapy department at KSSG (Kantonspital St. Gallen, Switzerland) and having good success, just I wish it would be sustainable.

To all who haven't tried the anti-inflammatory treatment and would like to give it a chance, it can take time (in some cases even longer time) to achieve significant results.  For me it took over 4 months and a lot of discipline. 


However, the flexibility of dosing the “ingredients” to achieve the current results, and knowing there is room for better results makes the continuous disciplined work of adjusting my anti-inflammatory treatment to the situation and the lab tests every three months well worth the effort.
 
The anti-inflammatory treatment is giving us (in conjunction with high Flow O2 abortive) a Substantial weapon to battle our common malady with substantial results (over 70%) and that is more than we achieve (statistically) with most of the standards of care treatments, without any (seemingly) adverse side effects, or any unwelcome legal issues.
 
The cost of this regimen is negligible in comparison to any of the current standard of care meds. It is affordable to (almost) any person, even without health insurance.  My cost is just under 50 cents (US $) a day (and I buy the supplements over the internet and they are flown from the USA to Switzerland via Fed Ex or DHL).  It is the cost (more or less) of one cigarette (in Switzerland), and way less than the cost of a beer in Switzerland !!!
 
When it's all said and done,
I know I still suffer from cluster headache !!!
However, I'm no longer intractable, and that by itself gives me a whole new outlook on life. 

The anti-inflammatory regimen gives me a confident level of control in preventing my CH and the few that do leak through are easily controlled with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation. 

Bottom line: I enjoy a quality of life that lets me function effectively at work, at home with my family, and while doing things I enjoy like skiing with my sons and flying a sail plane over the Alps or Paragliding with my older son.

If you haven't already tried it, I urge as many of you to give this alternative a try, and even if you have tried it for one or two weeks and given up…  try it again…  It can take time for it to be effective, for some of us, particularly the chronic types.  In some cases like mine, it can take several weeks, but the wait is worth it.   

It also takes a disciplined approach with lab tests and patience. There are no apparent risks and it is statistically a very cost effective preventative you can live with for as long as it takes…  or longer!


Michael

201209(copy - Pete)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JermCool on Sep 20th, 2012 at 12:42pm
Hey Batch:

I didn't stop the therapy.  I just changed my 'prescription' as it were.  I don't know if those soft-gels were lower in potency or just weren't absorbing at all.  I'm back on the normal pills, currently 3x 2000 IU/day to try and get things back up quickly, then I'll go back to the 2000 IU/day.  If I can ever get a PCP that my insurance doesn't drop a month later  ::), I'll see about getting some blood tests done to see where my levels are at.

Let this be a lesson: don't cheap out on your D.  It causes forces sobriety and no one wants that.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 22nd, 2012 at 4:34am
Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for the update.  If 6,000 IU/day vitamin D3 results in a cessation of your CH and 2,000 IU/day keeps you in that condition...  great!  However, doses of vitamin D3 this low appear below average per the following chart developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, the Jedi Master of vitamin D3 therapy.  It's also a lower dose than reported by nearly all the CH'ers responding to this regimen.

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As you can see from this chart, 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is a safe therapeutic dose and 5,000 IU/day is a good maintenance dose.

If your CH are slow in responding to this regimen, you might want to try what a few other CH'ers have found effective... a glass of fresh lemonade with each meal. 

The citric acid in lemonade and the calcium citrate from the anti-inflammatory regimen combine in the stomach to form a buffer that elevates the stomach content's pH making it more alkaline (less acid). 

As the stomach contents pass into the small intestine, the increased alkalinity starts elevating arterial pH making the blood less acid.  For some reason, the increased alkalinity appears to inhibit the cluster headache triggering mechanism resulting in fewer less painful cluster headaches.

If lemonade is a problem, you can also substitute a half teaspoon of good old Arm & Hammer baking soda, (sodium bicarbonate) in a half glass of water.  It doesn't taste bad and I've found a glass of this ant-acid prior to bedtime makes for a very comfortable, uninterrupted night's sleep.

Talk to your doctor about this simple method of elevating arterial pH.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Sep 29th, 2012 at 7:39pm
Careful with that "C" word ;) Get's everyone around here a bit up in arms! ;D Will be interested to see Batch's take on the relationship zinc plays in D's absorption.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 29th, 2012 at 9:23pm

Quote:
It doesn't taste bad and I've found a glass of this ant-acid prior to bedtime makes for a very comfortable, uninterrupted night's sleep.

After the burp. ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Sep 29th, 2012 at 11:31pm
G'Day Folks

Time for another update and its still good news. PF day 70 has come and gone, I am now completely off the Lithium with Verapamil reduced to 240mg/day. Not so much as a shadow since I started this.
D3 is static on 5000mg/day with all the other ingredients as prescribed.
I went for the blood test and I'm at 78 ng/mL, great, I'm just going to carry on doing what I'm doing.

Thanks again, good luck and PF days to all.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kevin_M on Sep 30th, 2012 at 5:58pm

Guiseppi wrote on Sep 29th, 2012 at 7:39pm:
...on the relationship zinc plays zinc plays in D's absorption.


Niels' post "zinc, zinc, and zinc" (50mg/day) almost looked like he was posting with a "eureka" discovery, but the post disappeared without saying how else he might think it's connected with CHs.  Helping with D3 absorption seemed a second added feature.


???

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 30th, 2012 at 9:24pm
Hey Wayne,

Outstanding update...   Thanks for sharing it with us.

I've a few questions and one comment... 

1.  What does your neurologist say about the cessation of your cluster headaches after starting vitamin D3?

2.  When are you going to ask your neurologist about tapering off the verapamil? 

3.  Have you taken the anti-inflammatory survey?

The sooner we get at least 100 completed surveys the sooner we can put the anti-inflammatory regimen in front of member neurologists of the American and International Headache Societies.

Finally, as effective as this regimen is in preventing cluster headaches and keeping them in remission...  it's not a cure so you still have the disorder. 

That means you'll need to stay on this regimen for a long time to come.

I've tested my 25(OH)D reserves three times over the last two years by stopping this regimen...  The longest it took for my CH to return was 8 days without vitamin D3.

That said, taking inexpensive vitamin and mineral supplements that actually provide other health benefits while controlling cluster headaches is a very small price to pay...  What's not to like about that?

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 1st, 2012 at 8:37am
Joe,

The vitamin D Council has the best synopsis on the role of oral zinc at the following link:

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Hope this helps.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Oct 1st, 2012 at 9:12am
Thanks Batch I was followimng a post Niels had put up but has since pulled.......

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Oct 1st, 2012 at 9:16am
Thgis was about the only thing remotely negative, with emphasis on the possible problems for those on prednisone...

Zinc Toxicity
Risk of zinc toxicity is very low. Side effects such as nausea and vomiting have occurred, though these effects are fleeting and are dose dependent. 1

Chronic administration of high doses of zinc runs risk of abnormally low blood serum copper levels, called hypocupremia. 1


Contraindications

Zinc should not be used with the following medications without first consulting with one’s health care provider:

•Amiloride (Midamor)
•Prednisone
•Cyclosporine
•other mmunosuppressant medications

Zinc may decrease absorption of two kinds of antibiotics, quinolones and tetracyclines.


Everything else is way positive, including what Niels was saying about its importance in the D absorption.

JOe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Oct 1st, 2012 at 11:40am
Hi,

Sorry for deleting my post about zink. I will post some important findings about zink in a couple of days.

But one important property is that zink inhibits GSK-3. Lithium was the first “natural” GSK-3 inhibitor discovered, but  Interestingly zinc are more potent inhibitors of GSK-3 than lithium (IC50 in the micromolar concentration range as compared to the IC50 of lithium which is within the millimolar concentration range). Of particular interest is that the trace element zinc, that unlike lithium, and other metal ions is naturally found in the body tissues. Zinc inhibits GSK-3 in the low micromolar range (IC50=15μM) and elevates cellular β-catenin levels. It is noteworthy that low zinc levels are linked with major depression, cancer, diabetes, migraine, cardiovascular disease and mental functions etc..

Vitamin d increase zinc absorption, but absorption will decreaced by 50% if you take it together with a calcium supplement. I take 50 mg zincpicolinate per day (for 6 months), and have lowered the vitamin-D3 to 100 µg. And I feel great.  :)

More to come.....

Regards Niels

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Oct 1st, 2012 at 5:17pm

Batch wrote on Sep 30th, 2012 at 9:24pm:

1.  What does your neurologist say about the cessation of your cluster headaches after starting vitamin D3?

2.  When are you going to ask your neurologist about tapering off the verapamil? 

3.  Have you taken the anti-inflammatory survey?



Hey Batch

Answers to the above
1. I took her the paper you put together, along with my own diary and she had a very positive approach. She certainly has a healthy repect for the power of D3 but is also cautiously sceptical.
2. I am tapering off the Verapamil at 80mg every 2 weeks and I see the Doc once a month for a quick once over. So far I have reduced from 480mg/day to 240 and the blood pressure and everything else are holding up well.
3. I haven't but I will

Cheers,

Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 3rd, 2012 at 6:49pm
Wayne,

Thanks for the answers...  Making believers out of the physicians who treat us, albeit one-by-one, that this regimen really works to prevent cluster headaches, is still progress...

The sooner the safety and efficacy of this regimen goes viral among neurologists and headache pain specialists, the better it's going to be for the rest of CH'ers who haven't given this regimen a try.

Thanks again,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Headbanger on Oct 5th, 2012 at 9:06am
Batch, Thank you for all of the great info you have posted here. I have been on the regiment for 3 weeks now and have had 0 hits since starting the regiment. I have not had to use oxygen at all. What are the chances of having a coctail or two on a saturday night? D3 at 15000iu, omega 3 at 3000iu and potassium and magnesium asperate at 500iu. 50,000iu d3 every friday. I also take verap at 120 per day but will taper off of that in a few weeks as my cycle winds down. Again thank you...Kirt

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 6th, 2012 at 2:34am
Kirt,

Great news.  Thanks for sharing it with us.

Regarding a cocktail test... I've never had any problems mixing alcohol with my cluster headaches so I may not be your best source of advice on this topic.  There have been a number of CH'ers on the anti-inflammatory regimen who have given this test a try with painless results...  On that count, I'd say Go for it...   You've likely built up enough 25(OH)D reserves to weather such a test... 

The best test would a single cocktail before diner on an empty tummy...  All things in moderation...

You can always play the odds in your favor and drink a half teaspoon of Arm & Hammer baking soda in a half glass of water first.  Drink another shot of the same mix just before bed to hold off any night hits.

It's been my experience that cluster headaches and the triggering mechanism are pH sensitive.  A low arterial pH (too much acid), triggers vasodilation so can cause problems making preventatives and abortives less effective. 

Moreover, it doesn't take much of a shift to a lower pH to start the ball rolling in the wrong direction with respect to cluster headaches.

For starters, ETOH is mildly ACIDIC with a pH range of 3.8 down to 3.2 so it can trigger vasodilation making the cluster headache triggering mechanism more effective and the pain of each attack more severe.

Our bodies normally maintain a serum pH in a narrow range of 7.35 to  7.45 through respiration and kidney output.  That said, if my memory of acid-base chemistry is not too far off the mark, an once and a half of 80 proof alcohol won't have much effect on overall systemic pH unless you're already at the tipping point with a lower than normal systemic pH.  In that case the baking soda should help neutralize the acidity of the alcohol.

The body also senses alcohol (ethyl alcohol - ETOH) as a foreign substance and poison, so tries to eliminate it as fast as possible.

It does this through enzymatic processes in the liver where alcohol is metabolized into compounds more easily eliminated by the kidneys.  The byproducts of alcohol metabolism include acetaldehyde and acetates...  both of which trigger vasodilation.

As the liver and kidneys are essential in metabolizing vitamin D3 into its active metabolite calcitriol, anything that stresses the liver and kidneys can interfere with vitamin D3 metabolism.

With that brief discussion of alcohol and vitamin D3 metabolism, the the choice is yours.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Oct 6th, 2012 at 5:19am
Hi,

A good argument for an increase in zinc supplement. I think that low level of zinc is a primary reasons for the development of CH.

Zinc Deficiency Mechanism Linked to Aging, Multiple Diseases
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Headbanger on Oct 7th, 2012 at 8:05pm
Thank you for that thoro explanation Batch. The baking soda sounds like a good idea if I decide to try and have a cocktail. I am enjoying being pain free during this cycle and really dont want to upset the apple cart.. :D. Still pain free and brief shadowing..5 mins max with no need for abortive other than ice. Miracle if you ask me. I usually get hammered the first 3 weeks especially at night...with the vitamin regiment plus a melatonin before bed...nothing. Whoo Hoo. Thanks again for everything.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Oct 7th, 2012 at 10:03pm
Damn Banger that's great news!

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 8th, 2012 at 5:54pm
Kirt,

Try the Arm & Hammer baking soda anyway...  I think you'll find it chases away the shadows...  which are minor cluster headaches...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 11th, 2012 at 4:45pm
Hey Batch,

On an alkaline diet forum, it's been recommended that you add a slice of lemon to your glass of water with baking soda so that the sodium is balanced to the lemon's potassium.

What do you think?

Brian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 12th, 2012 at 11:21am
Brian,

Sounds like a good idea...  even if just to add a different taste to the sodium bicarbonate tonic. 

I'll need to do some more reading to find the biochemistry and pharmacokinetics behind adding citric acid to a sodium bicarbonate tonic.

The anti-inflammatory regimen calls for a glass of lemonade with the calcium citrate tablets.  Citric acid in lemonade combines with the calcium citrate to form a buffer in the stomach that raises the pH of the stomach's contents.

On top of that, the pancreas dumps pancreatic juices high in sodium bicarbonate into the lower stomach to further neutralize the stomach's hydrochloric acid before the contents reach the upper end of the small intestine. 

The net effect of the sodium bicarbonate and or the calcium citrate - citric acid buffer is a slightly elevated arterial pH (more alkaline than normal) that appears to contribute to a mild vasoconstriction of the arterioles and capillaries in and around the trigeminal nerve making aborts with oxygen therapy more effective. 

Accordingly, my thinking here is a higher arterial pH helps reduce the frequency and severity of cluster headaches and in some cases, helps prevent them.

Without the pancreatic juices to neutralize the stomach's acidic contents, the small intestine would burn up from all the acid in the stomach contents.  Acidosis would set in and we would turn into a pickle... then die.

This isn't a wham bam process, and it can take place gradually when any number of underlying conditions or comorbidities affect the kidney's capacity to regulate systemic pH by eliminating excess hydrogen ions.  This condition is called metabolic acidosis.

If any one or more of these conditions are present, arterial pH drops.  If unchecked, this can lead to a low arterial pH (less than 7.35) and the condition is called acidemia.   If this occurs in a CH'er, it's likely none of the standards of care medications for cluster headache  intervention will be effective...  A possible reason for being refractory or resistant to cluster headache medications that are typically effective for most other CH'ers.

What I've found over the last few years using pH test strips to measure saliva pH is it appears cluster headaches are pH sensitive.

I used saliva pH as the pH of saliva, produced from arterial blood flow through the saliva glands, tends to parallel arterial pH...  only it lags any changes by 5 to 10 minutes  

What I found prior to developing the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3, was the lower the saliva pH, the higher the frequency and severity of my cluster headaches...

Moreover, when my saliva pH was high...  I had hardly any cluster headaches...  The few I did have, came while sleeping and were mild ≤ Kip-4.  They aborted easily with oxygen therapy or resolved on their own in less than 5 to 10 minutes.

I also suspect a lower than normal arterial pH is why some of the CH'ers are refractive to the standards of care medications for this disorder.  This may also be why there are some CH'ers who do not respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen.

If that's the case and my suspicions are real, following the directions on the Arm & Hammer baking soda box for the sodium bicarbonate tonic drink might just alkalize the CH'ers system enough to make the preventatives and abortives work more effectively.

Hope that makes sense...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 12th, 2012 at 9:30pm

Batch wrote on Oct 12th, 2012 at 11:21am:
I'll need to do some more reading to find the biochemistry and pharmacokinetics behind adding citric acid to a sodium bicarbonate tonic.


Thanks Batch.  Yea, this is the part I'm wondering about. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 14th, 2012 at 1:21pm
Brian,

After 46 years, my degree in chemistry is a bit rusty... That said, the short answer from a chemical standpoint, based on the equation below, is you get a fizz of carbon dioxide…  when you mix citric acid (slice of lemon) and sodium bicarbonate in water… 

It's basically a poor man's Alka-Seltzer.  Baking Soda mixed with a weak acid like buttermilk will also make your pancakes rise…

3NaHCO3 + C6H8O7 --> C6H5Na3O7 + 3CO2 + 3H2O

(sodium bicarbonate) + (citric acid) --> (sodium citrate) + (carbon dioxide) + (water)

From a chemical and physiological standpoint, sodium citrate is also a buffer similar to the calcium citrate called for in the anti-inflammatory regimen.  As such, it helps elevate arterial pH.

A buffer absorbs hydrogen ions to hold pH at a given range as opposed to an ant-acid or base that neutralizes acidic solutions.  There's a small difference in reactivity between the two citrate salts, but the extra sodium can lead to water retention…  another good reason to cut back on table salt when you're alkalizing with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).

Some folks claim drinking a glass of water with citric acid and sodium bicarbonate improves physical stamina in distance runners…  However, there's a Level A double blind RCT on drinking this mixture before a marathon that found no measurable improvement.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 16th, 2012 at 4:26am
So do you think the baking soda with lemon tonic would be less/more effective in elevating pH than just baking soda alone?  Or would you guess that they're about the same in terms of effectiveness?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nomoreclusters on Oct 16th, 2012 at 7:02am
My husband is an has been on a long cycle of cluster headaches...10 weeks now.... has been on a regimen of 20 IU's D3, 2400 Omega 3, and 500mg of Calcium for 6 days... he is also taking Depakote at night and Prednisone during the day, coming down from 100mg a couple of days ago.  Last Wed he had a hit of a 10+ severity of a headache on a scale of 1-10 lasting for 2 hrs. After that one, he went 48 hrs no headaches, since then he has been getting headaches at varying times usually short duration 5-30 min and sev ranging from 4 to 6.  He takes an oral imitrex at the onset of a headache.  He is also taking 10mg extended release melatonin at bed.  Any thoughts, comments, suggestions to get the beast to finally stop and leave him alone for a while? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kevin_M on Oct 16th, 2012 at 7:53am

nomoreclusters wrote on Oct 16th, 2012 at 7:02am:
he is also taking Depakote at night and Prednisone during the day, coming down from 100mg a couple of days ago.
 

I take it pred was started a few days ago and Depakote is being used as a preventative to be worked in for when the pred taper ends.  A 100mg pred taper could be about a 20 day span.  When this ends, the effectiveness of the Depakote will be known.  This seems to be your doctor's preventive strategy.



nomoreclusters wrote on Oct 16th, 2012 at 7:02am:
since then he has been getting headaches at varying times usually short duration 5-30 min and sev ranging from 4 to 6.


I'd suspect the subdued hits are due to the prednisone.


Keep the D3 regimen going, but I could not attest to the effectiveness of the Depakote when the pred taper ends.  However, having the oral or pill form of Imitrex as an abortive is not an adequate abortive, which may be more needed when after the pred.  It would be a good idea to get a prescription from your doc for oxygen to cover the possible consequences of his preventive strategy if it should not meet his and your expectations as an adequate preventive measure when the pred taper ends.

Welcome


There seems to be an unusually common amount of doctor's prescribing Depakote around here lately. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nomoreclusters on Oct 16th, 2012 at 8:34am
Thanks for the reply Kevin M.  He waited until the cycle was becoming unbearable before reaching out to the Dr. unfortunately. 

This is an unusual time of year for him to have a cycle... 

Long story short, he reached out about 2 weeks ago but that Dr. was not his usual GP and was an $#%! Last Tues, it got so bad = 10+ sev that I (his wife) insisted that we do something and got a hold of his regular GP.  She is very kind and sympathetic, as well as acknowledging that she does not know much about CH.  She reviewed his chart and prescribed the prednisone and depakote based on them working in the past as an abortive.  She got him an appt with Neuro at Dartmouth but it is not until Jan (they have him on a call list if there is a cancellation).

He is almost out of the triptans, he said he tried O2 in the past and it gave him rebound headaches?... Dr shared that it may have been that it was not prescribed or used correctly..

I am insistent that he stay on the vitamins...just hoping that something works.  He had thoughts about taking his own life last week... He is feeling more positive today though he is scared to death to get another 10 sev CH and is taking the triptans at the first sign of a headache.  I think he should try not to take them but since they are oral, I know they are slower to respond and I don't have to deal with the pain so I hate to make that suggestion to him....  We have a couple injections of imitrex here but the side effects (rapid heartrate and rush) are too bad that he doesn't want it even with a 10+ sev.

Why do you think that the current headaches may be a result of the prednisone?

I appreciate any and all input...  Thanks!  Lynne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kevin_M on Oct 16th, 2012 at 8:51am

nomoreclusters wrote on Oct 16th, 2012 at 8:34am:
Why do you think that the current headaches may be a result of the prednisone?


You mentioned these hits are shorter and less severe:


nomoreclusters wrote on Oct 16th, 2012 at 7:02am:
since then he has been getting headaches at varying times usually short duration 5-30 min and sev ranging from 4 to 6.



The pred would not seem to cause these headaches, that would be the CH's.  It is working to prevent them temporarily, but apparently not fully.  Without the prednisone, they might probably be longer and more painful.
 


Quote:
I'd suspect the subdued hits are due to the prednisone.


They seem subdued, shorter and less severe than they could be, due to the prednisone.

Welcome, Lynne.     :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nomoreclusters on Oct 16th, 2012 at 9:47am
Thanks Kevin!  This group has been a tremendous resource... 

It helps to know that we are not alone...

It is pretty sad when your first thing that pops into mind when blowing out your birthday candles for a wish is for your husband to not have any more CH...  :'(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by -dvb- on Oct 17th, 2012 at 5:18pm

nomoreclusters wrote on Oct 16th, 2012 at 7:02am:
since then he has been getting headaches at varying times usually short duration 5-30 min and sev ranging from 4 to 6.


This was my exact experience with the D3 regimen. Was the only thing I was taking as my Neuro appt. was a month out. A few days after starting the regimen, CHs came at varying times (as opposed to the atomic clock-like precision they had previously), were less in duration and severity.

Stick with it!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Oct 20th, 2012 at 7:30pm
Hey All!!
Day 5 of excellerated dosing of D3 at 50,000iu daily and had the 2 best nights sleep i have had in years!! I seem to be working for me and I am being followed by my Neuro and he is "ON BOARD!.......Johnny :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 20th, 2012 at 7:40pm

Clusterman59 wrote on Oct 20th, 2012 at 7:30pm:
Hey All!!
Day 5 of excellerated dosing of D3 at 50,000iu daily and had the 2 best nights sleep i have had in years!! I seem to be working for me and I am being followed by my Neuro and he is "ON BOARD!.......Johnny :)


Wow...50,000IU seems like a lot.  Glad it's working for you though.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 23rd, 2012 at 3:45am
Hey Johnny,

Outstanding news...  I'm particularly pleased your neurologist is on board with this regimen even at 50K/day vitamin D3.  That's roughly equivalent to the cutaneous vitamin D3 developed naturally from a little less than an hour of mid day sun clad in a bathing suit without any sun block...  and a lot safer...

The more neurologists willing to try this alternative cluster headache preventative the better.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Nov 8th, 2012 at 3:34pm
Hey all Been taking the D3 treatment for 26 days now and have been pain free for 23 strait days and no shadows either!!
I started with an excellorated dosing schedule of 50,000iu daily for 2 weeks and then down to 20,000iu daily just got my labwork done and I was in the target range of 60 ng/ml to 80 ng/ml at a 68 ng/ml level where I am perfect.
I will get another lab test in 30 days and see where i am and adjust accordingly. I also have been taking the calcium citrate 1000mg daily and 2400mg fish oil daily.
THIS REGIMEN WORKS!!!!Thanks to Pete Batch!!!..Johnny ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 9th, 2012 at 2:54pm
Johnny,

Thanks for the wonderful update.  For those of you who haven't followed Johnny's posts, he's kept his doctor in the loop from day one...  and his doctor is becoming a believer in the anti-inflammatory regimen...

Johnny has also had labs done for 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH.  These labs are important in order to understand the relationship between serum concentrations of 25(OH)D and a vitamin D3 preventative response to cluster headaches.

These labs are also important because Johnny is also using an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule to elevate his 25(OH)D serum concentration faster than at a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.

Simply put... keep your doctor in the loop if you're taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent your cluster headaches... You might even want to let your neurologist know if this regimen is working to prevent your cluster headaches...  It never hurts to keep the clue bird hovering low over his or her head...

Take care.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Nov 15th, 2012 at 7:30am
An interesting article on how genetics may play a role in vitamin D absorption and metabolism:

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Nov 15th, 2012 at 9:18am
Hi Brew,

Those variation within genes in the VDR, is most likely due to zinc deficiency.

Vitamin D Receptors (VDR) are a bit like sensors attached to genes. These VDRs wait for Vitamin D to attach and instruct the genes what to do.

Recent research has now identified 2,776 binding sites for the VDR across the length of the human genome.

At the base of these sensors is a zinc molecule. Vitamin D cannot function properly if you are zinc deficient. Zinc deficiency, by changing the activity of VDR, changes the protein expression of VDR, and thus affects the transcription of the target gene.

The list below outlines the main roles of zinc in the body:
◦      Zinc is needed for DNA synthesis, RNA transcription, mitosis, and cell activation.
◦      Zinc-dependent enzymes are involved in metabolism of proteins, lipids and carbohydrates.
◦      Zinc plays as essential role in cell membrane integrity.
◦      Zinc helps manage insulin action and blood glucose concentration.
◦      Zinc has an essential role in development and maintenance of the body's immune system.
◦      Zinc is required for bone and teeth mineralization.
◦      Zinc is involved with normal taste and wound healing.
◦      Zinc is required for the synthesis of various biological markers of nutrition and of collagen.
◦      Zinc is essential in regulating gene expression.
◦      Zinc has long been considered to have anti-inflammatory properties.
◦      Zinc containing enzymes such as carbonic anhydrase and lactate dehydrogenase are involved in intermediary metabolism during exercise.
◦      Zinc is particularly important for cells that are rapidly turning over such as those in the immune system; as well as in the maintenance of the central nervous system

Regards Niels

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Nov 15th, 2012 at 9:52am
...which is why I take 50mg of zinc every day.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Battig on Nov 19th, 2012 at 9:56am
Started this D3 regimen on Wednesday the 14th as I realized that my clusters were starting a clusterperiod     (Im episodic) rather than just the random cluster that pops up now and again. I was having them one in the morning about a kip-6 and one in the evening kip-9 but when I started to wake up in the middle of the night I knew the BEAST was back for good. Well day one on the D3 program I started to feel much better, no shadowing and no attackes for 4 days which was great since my cycle usually increases up to 6-8 headaches per day. Well then Saturdat night woke up with a Kip-5 or 6 took some more D3 and calcium citrate and it went away in about 10 mins only to come back in about 2 hours. Used redbull and knocked it out. Sunday night same thing no headaches during the day feeling great and then woke up by a Kip-6, redbull slowed it down but took a hit of nasel zomig and it was knocked out. So far I really do think this D3 thing is working keeping these clusters down in both kip-scale and numbers, if I could only get rid of these nightly visits by the Beast all would be well. Taking between 10,000Iu - 15,000IU D3, calcium citrate 600mg, 50mg zinc, magnesium citrate and or magnesium oxide. Think I need to take a one time large dose of the D3 and load then scale back to 10,000IU. Maybe Ill try the 50,000IU D3 today and Ill also try the baking soda and water before bed. I also take verapamil 180mg. Thank You Pete for all the research and info awesome, awesome, awesome!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 19th, 2012 at 11:49am
Hey Battig,

Thanks for the feedback.  It sounds like you're taking what's needed for the basic anti-inflammatory regimen...  The other two things to add are vitamin A and vitamin K... I get mine from Centrum Silver. 

Without a lab test for your serum concentration of 25(OH)D, it's difficult to say how long it's going to take to get the beast completely under control... 

That said, it appears you're close...  The 50,000 IU loading dose once a week and 20,000 IU/day should wrangle the beast to parade rest. 

Talk with your doctor/PCP if you want to use the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule of 50,000 IU/day for two weeks followed by a  taper down to 20,000 IU/day for another two weeks then go in for a 25(OH)D lab test.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Take care and please keep us posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 22nd, 2012 at 12:32am
Recent studies have shown taking vitamin D3 with the largest meal of the day increases absorption and bioavailability with resulting serum concentrations of 25(OH)D as much as 50% higher than taking vitamin D3 on an empty stomach.

Other studies indicate taking vitamin D3 with Omega 3 Fish Oil also increases absorption.

Accordingly, it appears taking the entire anti-inflammatory regimen with the largest meal of the day will result in optimum results.

See the following link for details:

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I've updated the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Survey and treatment protocol post with this information.

Take care and have a wonderful Thanksgiving... 

A big meal like that will give you an opportunity to try this dosing information for yourself.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Paul75 on Nov 24th, 2012 at 11:17am
Hello everyone,

     My name is Paul.  I am 37 years old and new to this forum.  I remember when I was 15 years old, and I got my first Cluster Headache in Sophomore History Class...a vivid and not so fun memory!  Since then, I have suffered from episodic cluster headaches off and on throughout the years.  I was finally diagnosed when I was 28 years old with Cluster Headaches.  I'm on the forum now because "the beast" is back...or was back.  I've had great success with D3 and Fish Oil after two days thanks to you Batch!  ;D

     Like all of you, I'm always trying to figure out what cause my episodes to start.  I've narrowed it down to a combination of the following:

1.  Disruption of Sleep Pattern
2.  Stress
3.  Time change/jetlag
4.  Throw in some beer/wine
5.   Disruption of normal eating pattern

     My headaches have ranged from KIP 1, all the way to KIP 9.  Fortunately, I haven't had to go to the hospital!  For me, the pain starts behind my right eye and radiates out and up...I fell it in my teeth (especially my upper right wisdom tooth) and throughout my skull on the right side. My nostril on my right side will start running horribly when I have a bad one and so will my right eye.  Also, my stomach will feel like it is empty when I'm having my attack...anyone else get this?

    For the most part, I have just used Imitrex to treat the headaches when they are way up on the KIP scale.  I had one very bad episode when I was 28 where I was put on verapamil (only because I educated my doctor, as a GP, he was clueless about CHs) and it worked really well for me.  After 7 days on it, I was CH free!

    About a week ago, I got hit again....pretty sure it had to do with all of the factors I listed above.  I had been CH free for about 3 years and 3 months up to that point!  Damn beast came back.  My welcome back to the fun of CHs was a KIP 8, it was horrible.  Since then they haven't been that bad, but have been more frequent.  Also, up to this point, I never had CHs during the night, they were always in the morning...these nighttime ones suck!  I started getting 3-4 CHs at night that would wake me up and make it very difficult to get back to sleep. Also, once I'm up, I've been having a KIP 5-6

    So I did some reading here and came across Batch’s concoction....THANK YOU BATCH!  Yesterday was my first full day on the treatment, and I went from 3-4 KIP 5-6 CHs during the night to 2 KIP 1s last night.  Just woke to a little pressure, and was able to easily fall back to sleep.  This morning, I woke and started to get about a KIP 2-3, BUT after taking the fish oil and Vitamin D, gone, all gone!

    I'm taking 8000 IU of Vitamin D3 (4,000 in the am and 4,000 in the pm) and 4,800 mg of Fish Oil every am.  So far so good.  Thanks again Batch! ;D
     Hopefully this pattern will continue!  Thanks to everyone  here on the board for posting your experiences, they really have been helpful for me to understand/combat my cluster headaches!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 24th, 2012 at 5:12pm
Hey Paul,

Thank you for the awesome feedback...  It appears you can and another entry to your list of cluster headache contributors...

When you get the time, see your doctor for a lab test of your serum concentration of 25(OH)D.  That should give you a reference level of your 25(OH)D level to stay above and remain PF.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 25th, 2012 at 11:53am
Got back into cycle about two weeks ago after 26 months of pain free living.  I tried to bust it twice but was unsuccessful.  Starting taking the regimen yesterday and hope to report some positive results soon.  I happened to locate a blood test report from May 2012 and lo and behold, my Vitamin D level was 26.1ng/ml.  Listed as low and the recommended levels are 32-100.  I will keep everyone posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Nov 25th, 2012 at 12:05pm
The vast majority of CH'ers don't report success until their serum levels are between 60-110 ng/mL.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 25th, 2012 at 1:30pm
I just wanted to post the results per the blood test report.  Plan on following Batch's routine as I am beginning to trust CHers more then doctors.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 25th, 2012 at 9:52pm
I am getting some real high hopes as I have only had shadows during the day and nothing more.  Actually feel asleep this afternoon which is a major trigger when in cycle.  Woke with only minor shadows.  I am hopeful for the first time in a while.  And I only started this yesterday!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 26th, 2012 at 10:05am
It remained only shadows through the evening and managed to sleep through till 5:00am.  Woke with some heavier shadows but passed after standing up for a bit.  My worst time of day is usually mid morning (9:30-10:30).  Today I started to get shadows that escalated to maybe a kip6.  O2 and caffeine kept it their and just got past it.  Definite improvement from were I was.  Hopeful that things will continue to improve.
Tim

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Nov 26th, 2012 at 1:50pm
Woo hoo! [smiley=applause.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 27th, 2012 at 8:15am
Got hit pretty hard last evening and had three hits through the night.  Hoping it is temporary, maybe due to weather??  O2 and red bull weren't helpful, just a man and his demons.  Do I go to trex or pred taper while waiting for vitamin d levels to increase?  Sorry if sounding desperate, the sleep deprivaton does wonders to my psyche.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 27th, 2012 at 4:44pm
Hey Tim,

Thanks for the update...  I understand sleep deprivation... and I found oxygen therapy and imitrex if needed, preferable to a pred taper as bailout/escape abortives. 

Oxygen therapy and or imitrex are perfectly acceptable with the process of building 25(OH)D serum concentrations...  A pred taper could slow it down.

I suspect you just need a little more time to build 25(OH)D serum concentrations a bit higher for a lasting CH preventative effect.  4 days is still short of the average response time as indicated in the graphic below:

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You might want to try a baking soda tonic prior to bed time.  A half teaspoon of good old Arm & Hammer baking soda in a half glass of water should help alkalize your system and that may help prevent the night hits.

I've sent you a PM with additional info on oxygen therapy and some other things to help build 25(OH)D reserves a little faster...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 28th, 2012 at 8:55am
I hope I am not pirating this link...should I start my own or is it better to keep updates all together??
Either way...I increased the D3 to 15000 and also tried to bust using RC seeds(approx 65).  Got 6.5 hours straight sleep which was awesome.  Minor hit at 5:30 which aborted with 5 minutes of 02.  Just got slammed with a full on kip10 which responded to nothing, so I danced.  Hopefully its the post dose hit and nothing else.  If it comes on that strong again I am going to have to get some relief via triptans.  Lets' hope not.  Please keep the positive vibes and comments coming, they help immensely.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 28th, 2012 at 10:21am
Tim,

Please keep posting your updates in this thread.

Have you talked with your PCP about using one of the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedules? 

Have you tried the baking soda tonic prior to bed time?

Although you've not had a significant CH preventative response... you've only been on this regimen for less than six days.  Some CH'ers have taken several weeks to a month before they started experiencing a significant improvement.

That said, your initial response to vitamin D3 appeared favorable so hang in there... and keep us posted.  I'm still confident you'll find this regimen to your liking.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 28th, 2012 at 10:33am
Thanks Batch, I have not gone to my PCP yet, afraid to go anywhere but work and home right now.  O2 at my side in those two spots.  Will try and get to neuro first to get new triptan scripts, hopefully I can review with them and get bloodwork.  In addition to CH I have Crohns and had to go to gastro doc last night and of course got hit while there.  Anxiety at new high.  Will grab some baking soda for tonight.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 28th, 2012 at 1:20pm
Still getting slammed and had a quick thought.  Is it possible that too much caffeine is causing rebound headaches? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 28th, 2012 at 2:54pm
Tim,

Anything is possible when it comes to cluster headache drivers and triggers...  However, the probability that the increase in the frequency and severity of your cluster headaches is due to coffee intake is low as the caffeine in coffee acts as a vasoconstrictor...  How many cups a day are you drinking?

Even if your headaches are due to an excess amount of coffee, I would think they would be more global and not just one sided.  You would also likely be experiencing coffee jitters and shakes...

A drop in systemic pH, (too much acid), due to dietary influences or some other medical condition is a more likely scenario.  Sensors in the brain and major arteries interpret a lower than normal arterial pH as being caused by too much dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid).  This condition triggers a homeostatic response that includes an increase in respiration rate, an elevated heart beat and dilation of small arteries and arterioles throughout the body and brain.  All this happens to increase blood flow to the lungs in order to cast off the perceived excess CO2.

The simple way to find out if a low pH is the culprit responsible for the increase in the frequency, severity and duration of your cluster headaches is to skip coffee for a few days.  In place of the coffee, drink lemonade or another fruit juice high in citric acid.  Drinks like this have an alkalizing effect so elevate arterial pH.

Have you tried the baking soda tonic?

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 28th, 2012 at 3:09pm
Hey Batch, thanks for quick reply.  Not a coffee man but energy drinks and soda.  Been pounding them as I was thinking that if I got sleepy it might be a trigger.  Going to drug store right now for some baking soda and hope for some relief.  Getting beaten down as everyone here knows can happen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 29th, 2012 at 7:00am
Tried the baking soda....my sensitive stomach didn't like it and it came right back up 30 minutes later.  Haven't been able to eat since.  Couldn't get the vitiamins in last night either.  Got walloped all night....it was a bad night with bad thoughts.  Anxiety/depression have hit new highs.  Soory for crappy update/rant.  Trying to cope and sharing sometimes helps.   [smiley=embarassed.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 29th, 2012 at 9:25am
Tim,

Yikes!  What a bummer...  Sorry you're having such a rough time.  Cluster headaches are bad enough...  Adding an upset tummy and dehydration only makes them worse.

A half teaspoon of baking soda in 4 ounces of water is roughly equivalent to the same concentration of sodium bicarbonate you get from S.Pellegrino, Evian, or Perrier mineral water... so you do have a sensitive stomach.

Pushing fluids is important to avoid dehydration...  If you can't hold down clear fluids, Jello or the nuclear option... chicken broth...  it's a good idea to see your PCP...  You may have something else cooking.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 29th, 2012 at 7:04pm
Well, the stomach and nerves calmed down...thank you ativan.  Was able to have very lite breakfast, sandwich for lunch and full dinner(WITH D3 regimen).  I kept the caffeine intake to a low today and someone help explain the following:
At 8:30 started getting hit and used a zomig nasal spray.  Between that and the ativan I dozed on an office couch for while.  Haven't been hit since!!!!  I'm talking almost 11 hours agp.  I can't figure this thing out but the relief was much needed.  Last night and early this morning where NOT very good times for me, very bad thoughts.  Emotionally getting it together as this pain free streak hopefully continues into some restful sleep.  My family and supporters here are what keeps me going.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 30th, 2012 at 7:09am
Well, the streak ended at 11:00, 12:00, 1:30, 3:00.  Zomig at 3:00 and slept till alarm at 7:00. What next?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Nov 30th, 2012 at 1:06pm
44 days pain free Pete!!! No side affects and seeing my Doc today to getmy 25 ohd test my last one 4 weeks ago was a 68 ng/ml and i have since tapered down to 10,000iu D3 daily and a weekly loading dose of 50,000iu. I feel AWESOME!! I don't know if it's just being pain free or the D3 regimen but i have so much energy and feel so good!!!! Thanks Pete I can't say enough about this regimen and am sooooo thankful for you and everyone that has helped me here.....Johnny :) :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 30th, 2012 at 2:12pm
Hey Johnny,

Outstanding update...  I'll make a SWAG your 25(OH)D serum concentration is around 85 to 90 ng/mL.

Please let us know the lab results when they come in.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 30th, 2012 at 6:31pm
Confident that I will get there eventually. Congrats to clusterman, enjoy the time.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Nov 30th, 2012 at 6:33pm
Forgot to mention, no hit all day since zomig used during last night. Lets see what tonight's sleep brings.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 1st, 2012 at 4:49am
Hmmm...  Very interesting...  Particularly when you consider the mean elimination half-life of zolmitriptan and of the active N-desmethyl metabolite is 3 hours.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 1st, 2012 at 4:31pm
Used the zomig for only the third time at 1:00am this morning.  Slept until almost 9:00 and pain free again till show shadows at 4:00.  If the half life is three hours then in theory, I went twelve hours pain free without the help of the zomig.  Only one other thing going on and that is the D3.  Going to use my saturday as the day for the high dose and then go back to 15,000 during  the week.  Have to print out some stuff to take to the neuro on Tuesday.  Its amazing what some sleep can do for your pysche.  Will keep posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 1st, 2012 at 5:14pm
I agree with your deductive logic... and comment on what sleep can do for your psyche.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 2nd, 2012 at 1:58pm
As it seems to be going, getting 15-17 hours of relief after zomig use thanks to what I believe is the D3.  As my time expired last night, I hit the zomig and found it weird that I didn't get the nasty backdrip from the spray.  Sure enough was getting hit through the night (o2 worked) until it dawned on me that maybe the zomig was empty.  Hit a different zomig spray at 5:00am and slept till 11:30!!!!  Nothing all day again and guessing around 8:00pm I will be back at the zomig.  Maybe not as yesterday was my mega dose of D3.  We will see. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 2nd, 2012 at 9:10pm
Well, I have gone past what I thought would be my pain free time. Of course I am jinxing myself but what the hell. Occasional shadow but no hit. Hoping the megadose yesterday puts me at a higher level. Lets see what tonight brings.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 3rd, 2012 at 6:49pm
Got hit at 10:30 last night and after zomig spray slept till 5:00. O2 and back to bed till alarm at 6:20. Got to work and got slammed by full on kip 10. Used my first full imitrex injection. At 2:30 got hit again waiting to meet prospective new client. Used zomig again.  WTF?  Bad day, mad at the world. Had a long "talk" with God on the ride home. I'm guessing he is not talking to me right now. Anxiety at breaking point. Hoping for better days.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 4th, 2012 at 8:19am
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Patience Grasshopper...


I sent you a PM with some suggestions to discuss with your doctor...

Take care and hang in there...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 4th, 2012 at 8:43pm
Classic pic, just frustrated.  Upped the d3 to 50,000 today and going to try and detox off triptans.  Hoping to be able to try a bust this weekend.  You know why no one famous suffers from this.  No one can led a life that would get them to fame.  We all end being that guy/girl with the weird headaches.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Dec 5th, 2012 at 12:07am

birdman wrote on Dec 4th, 2012 at 8:43pm:
You know why no one famous suffers from this.


Daniel Radcliffe, the actor famous for playing Harry Potter might just disagree with this.

There are no doubt others but they probably keep it quiet.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 5th, 2012 at 9:11pm
We need a voice. Anyway, after battling through a hit at the neuro office last night, I have been pain free since. Last triptan use was yesterday at 2:00pm. Slept all night though I had a steady eye jab I couldn't shake. Hope the increased D3 is doing the trick.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 6th, 2012 at 6:46pm
So far so good, no triptans in two days

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 6th, 2012 at 11:48pm
Good start.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 7th, 2012 at 5:33pm
Another day of no triptans. Bust maybe this weekend, not sure if I want to mess with it though

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Dec 8th, 2012 at 9:33am
Birdman, I'm coming up on 3 years pain free on "The Batch regimen." 52 year old male, 36 year episodic. I generally start around Thanksgiving, many years my first hit was on Thanksgiving day. This year I had forgot to take my regimen for 2 days in a row. (I NEVER allow this to happen but....) got a mild headache and my wife freaked out becuase my eyelid was "falling!" (Doing the dreaded CH droop she knows all too well.) Doubled back to 10,000 vit d a day for a week and appear to be out of the woods. Needless to say I'm even more religous about my daily regimen. No way I think it's coincidence.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 8th, 2012 at 2:51pm
Joe,

You bring up a good point.  As good as the anti-inflammatory regimen is as a cluster headache preventative...  It's not a cure.

That said, at 20 to 30 cents a day to remain pain free of the beast...  Who cares?

For reference, data collected since late 2010 indicates the 25(OH)D reserve burn down time to a resumption of cluster headache symptoms after skipping or intentionally stopping this regimen, ranges from a few days to as much as two weeks.

In my case as a chronic CH'er, after 13 months totally PF on this regimen taking a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 with a stable 25(OH)D serum concentration of 85 ng/mL...  it took 8 days without the maintenance dose of vitamin D3 for my CH to return.

Bottom line...  a disciplined approach to taking this regimen pays off...  And if you forget your vitamin D3 for a few days...  the beast will remind you...

For you episodic types...  you may be able to skate for weeks to several months without a visit from the beast if you stop taking this regimen...  However... when your normal cycle start date arrives and the beast comes a calling, it will likely take the same length of time to go PF after restarting this regimen, as it did the first time you started it.

Finally, on another topic...  If you're considering oxygen therapy as an abortive for your cluster headaches and you're planning to buy an oxygen regulator capable of 25 liters/minute or higher...  buy it before the end of the year.

As of 1 January 2013, the price of all medical devices is going up due to the new medical device tax made possible under obamacare... 

The cost of these devices goes even higher as a result of the increased cost of labor to produce these devices due to the impact of obamacare on medical insurance provided by the manufacturers...

You can thank obamacare and the liberal progressives in the politburo who pushed it into law...  Elections have consequences...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 8th, 2012 at 4:46pm
Thanks batch for another quality post. I will without question try and be religious about this program.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ouch1975 on Dec 13th, 2012 at 12:20am
Hi All, I'm kinda new here, posted a couple of times in 2007, I'm writing from Gold Coast, Australia. Lately I have been 'stalking' batch's & others posts in regards to the vitamin regimen.  I've had CH for roughly 13 years, I started a new cycle about 3 weeks ago, this one's a bit more full on than usual as I'm getting hit 3-4 times a day (no night ones - start early morning around 5:30/6am). In the past I've generally only had a big one in the morning, which may or may not linger (shadow) all day.

So, I've started taking the following per day:
Vitamin D3 - 10,000iu
Magnesium - 300mg
Calcium - 600mg
Fish Oil - 3,000mg
'Centrum Advance' Multivitamin
Large Glass of Home Made Lemon Drink with Honey

I have slowly progressed over the last 5 days to be taking it all, today is the only the 2nd day of the full regimen.

I got my blood test results back today and my Vitamin D level was normal at 105 nmol/L.  Actually everything was in the very good normal range except Iron, which was quite low, hopefully the multivitamin will help with that.

I haven't noticed a difference in my hits over the last few days, I take Imigran orally which works well for me.

The doc said today that he may start me on Verapamil.  I said I wanted to give the regimen 2-3 weeks to kick in. If it has not helped in that time, I will look at other options.

I'm excited about this regimen and so thankful to Batch for sharing and all the others who have shared their experiences too. Fingers crossed this works for me.

Will write an update when there's something to report.

Ange

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Dec 13th, 2012 at 9:17am
Hope it works for you as well as it has for me Ange. Crossing my fingers for ya.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CrankieFrankie on Dec 13th, 2012 at 1:07pm
I started this regimen of vitamins this past weekend and I can already tell a difference. I've noticed that taking 15,000iu daily of D3, split up in 3 doses (1 with breakfast at 8am, 1 with lunch at 12 and 1 with dinner around 6) has been the most beneficial for me. I started out taking them in the morning and evening and my normal 9am headache just seemed to be pushed back to the afternoon. Having the doses split up seems to keep them at bay for the entire day.

This website and this specific thread, have been lifesavers for me. I was in the middle of a really brutal cycle but now there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Thank you everyone!  ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Dec 13th, 2012 at 1:27pm

CrankieFrankie wrote on Dec 13th, 2012 at 1:07pm:
I started this regimen of vitamins this past weekend and I can already tell a difference. I've noticed that taking 15,000iu daily of D3, split up in 3 doses (1 with breakfast at 8am, 1 with lunch at 12 and 1 with dinner around 6) has been the most beneficial for me. I started out taking them in the morning and evening and my normal 9am headache just seemed to be pushed back to the afternoon. Having the doses split up seems to keep them at bay for the entire day.

This website and this specific thread, have been lifesavers for me. I was in the middle of a really brutal cycle but now there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Thank you everyone!  ;D

Cha-ching!

Slam dunk.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Dec 13th, 2012 at 4:01pm
57 days pain free now and have been only taking the D3 regimen....After 37 years of chronic CH I was pain free after the 3rd day of taking the regimen, i realize that this isn't the norm for everyone but to those who have been taking it and not getting immediate results please be patient as it can take up to 2 months to become effective and be sure to get your 25 ohd lab tests so you know where your D3 levels are and that they are between 60 and 110 ng/ml levels to be pain free so best of luck to all as pain free is WONDERFUL!!!......Johnny
p.s. As with all meds this doesn't work for everyone so just give it the proper time to work and hopefully you will be pain free too! :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CrankieFrankie on Dec 13th, 2012 at 4:41pm
Now all I'm waiting for is a couple more PF days so I can finally try my beer test. Hopefully, I'll pass it in time for new years. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Dec 13th, 2012 at 6:35pm
All great news folks. Allow me to further it along, still pain fee. Think I am still in cycle but not getting hit. I say that because every so often during the day I feel something but it never materializes. Woop woop

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Dec 13th, 2012 at 8:09pm

birdman wrote on Dec 13th, 2012 at 6:35pm:
All great news folks. Allow me to further it along, still pain fee. Think I am still in cycle but not getting hit. I say that because every so often during the day I feel something but it never materializes. Woop woop

If the news around here got any better, I'd have to be two people cuz I can't take that much good news! :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MDR on Dec 13th, 2012 at 8:17pm
I'm the same as birdman pf but think I'm still in cycle can't drink yet but that's fine with me.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Dec 14th, 2012 at 12:36pm
My D3 level is at an 83 ng/ml and am now taking 15,000iu daily as a maintenance dose so we'll see what things look like in a month. This regimen has saved my life and i can't say enough about it but thank you Pete Batch for your tireless work and help to get me where i am today!! Best of luck to all and pf days and nights....Johnny :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Break_the_Cycle on Dec 17th, 2012 at 2:58pm
Batch,

I just wanted to lend some words of my girlfriend's experience with your regimen. She is a cluster headache sufferer(episodic) and has been for about 15 years or so.  She told me about these headaches and I'm not going to lie, it scared me a little.  But I immediately started researching it as she told me they would be due to hit in about 4 or 5 months(at the time we started dating) because they hit her about every 18 months.  Anyway, about a month ago she started getting shadows and I happened upon your regimen.  She started it and it has worked great.  She had a couple more shadows here and there but nothing major.

For the first 2.5 or 3 weeks she was taking 15,000 IU's of D3 and she is now just taking a total of 11,200 IU's.  She got the result of her blood work back and her 25(OH)D levels were at  71 ng/mL.

Also, she started out taking 3600mg of Omega 3 but cut down to 2400mg 2 days ago.

She also takes Coral Calcium that includes:
Vit C 15mg
Vit D3   1200iu (included in the above total)
Calcium  1100mg
Mag  168mg

and
Zinc   50mg

Oh, and 10mg of Melatonin a night!

Everything seems to be working great but if you have any suggestions...please let us know!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 17th, 2012 at 9:06pm
Hey BTC,

Thanks for the info...  It sounds like your girlfriend is doing great!  A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 71 ng/mL is clearly in the "green zone" 60-110 ng/mL. 

It also appears she has the bases covered with all the primary supplements...

The only thing I see missing are vitamin A and vitamin K2...  I take a Centrum Silver multivitamin tablet to get these two cofactors...

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MemyselfandI on Dec 17th, 2012 at 10:09pm

Ouch1975 wrote on Dec 13th, 2012 at 12:20am:
Hi All, I'm kinda new here, posted a couple of times in 2007, I'm writing from Gold Coast, Australia. Lately I have been 'stalking' batch's & others posts in regards to the vitamin regimen.  I've had CH for roughly 13 years, I started a new cycle about 3 weeks ago, this one's a bit more full on than usual as I'm getting hit 3-4 times a day (no night ones - start early morning around 5:30/6am). In the past I've generally only had a big one in the morning, which may or may not linger (shadow) all day.

So, I've started taking the following per day:
Vitamin D3 - 10,000iu
Magnesium - 300mg
Calcium - 600mg
Fish Oil - 3,000mg
'Centrum Advance' Multivitamin
Large Glass of Home Made Lemon Drink with Honey

I have slowly progressed over the last 5 days to be taking it all, today is the only the 2nd day of the full regimen.

I got my blood test results back today and my Vitamin D level was normal at 105 nmol/L.  Actually everything was in the very good normal range except Iron, which was quite low, hopefully the multivitamin will help with that.

I haven't noticed a difference in my hits over the last few days, I take Imigran orally which works well for me.

The doc said today that he may start me on Verapamil.  I said I wanted to give the regimen 2-3 weeks to kick in. If it has not helped in that time, I will look at other options.

I'm excited about this regimen and so thankful to Batch for sharing and all the others who have shared their experiences too. Fingers crossed this works for me.

Will write an update when there's something to report.

Ange


Ange,
Check the units on your vit d test results.  With a value of 101 nmol/l it puts you right on the edge of the active headache area according to Batch's graph.  You'll want to get your vit d value around the 200 nmol/l to be solidly in the pf zone. 

regards,

me


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CrankieFrankie on Dec 20th, 2012 at 8:38am
Unfortunately, I had to stop the regimen last night. It was working for a few days but then I started having some weird reactions to the Vitamin D and my hits actually started getting worse and coming at random times.

Although it did not end up working for me, it does bring me relief to know that other people have had success with this and are currently pain free. It gives me hope that I will find something soon that will bring me there as well.

Thank you Batch and everyone else for all of your tireless work when it comes to cluster headaches. This website has been my saving grace and I cannot thank all of you enough.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 20th, 2012 at 2:07pm
Frankie,

Sorry you're having such a rough time...  and had to stop this regimen...

The anti-inflammatory regimen is at best effective for 76% of the CH'ers who try it.

That said, reactions to vitamin D3 are rare as the body makes it for free if exposed to the UVB in direct sunlight...  There have been a handful of reports that there was an initial increase in the frequency of their CH during the first few weeks after starting this regimen...  Nearly all reported this condition lasted for a few days then the frequency dropped.

I've spent most of the last year trying to determine why the 24% of CH'ers who try this regimen fail to achieve a meaningful preventative effect.  Perhaps you can help if you feel up to it.

Have you seen your PCP or neurologist for a lab test of your 25(OH)D serum concentration?  I've checked your posts and didn't see any indication you've had this lab test recently. 

Seeing your PCP for this test is an important first step as you may have a comorbid condition that's affecting your capacity to metabolize vitamin D3.

The next steps involve isolating the supplements in this regimen to determine if one or more of them are responsible for the increase in frequency of your cluster headaches?

You've already taken the first step in this process of elimination by stopping the entire regimen. 

The half-life of these supplements including vitamin D3 is 24 hours... so wait a few days for everything to clear before starting the next steps: 

Take each of the supplements by itself for a couple days and note any change in your CH symptoms... Start with the vitamin D3 as you think it was responsible for the increase in the frequency of your CH. 

If you get an unfavorable reaction to the vitamin D3 you've solved the first problem...  Knowing why youis up to you and your PCP or an endocrinologist.

If there hasn't been a reaction, try the vitamin D3 and magnesium in combination for a few days. 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and 400 mg/day magnesium should be sufficient.

If there's no reaction, add 10mg/day zinc...  I think you've got my drift...

If all this is too much trouble and the beast is hammering away...  I understand...  The first order of business is stopping the CH pain...

On that note... I haven't seen anything in your posts about using oxygen therapy.  Even a flow rate of 15 liters/minute can make a big difference if started as soon as you feel a CH approaching...

Take care and thanks again for trying the anti-inflammatory regimen.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Battig on Dec 24th, 2012 at 4:46pm
Merry Christmas everyone!

Finally received the results from my Vit d 25 Hydroxy test and my value was 48.8 ng/ml. This is after a month of taking 50,000IU one time per week and 20,000IU all other days. Well I guess my question now is how much do I take to get to the prefered zone of 60 ng/ml? I have finially came out of my normal cycle and would like to avoid the next one.

This cycle was very strange after starting the D3. My clusters seemed to turn into migraines or very long low kip clusters.

Hope everyone has a PF Holiday!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 24th, 2012 at 9:08pm
Hey Battig,

Thanks for the update and lab results...  Even though your 25(OH)D serum concentration is less than 60 ng/mL, it appears from the description of your CH symptoms, you're benefiting from the present vitamin D3 dosing schedule.

Are you taking all the cofactors?  If so, at what dose?  The big three are magnesium at 400 mg/day, zinc at 15 to 20 mg/day, (or eat a half dozen oysters on the half shell at a good Raw Bar for a week's supply of zinc) and vitamin A.  I take a Centrum Silver tablet a day to get my vitamin A (retinol) and vitamin K.

Regarding the vitamin D3 dose... the way I see it, you've got a couple options...  Don't change the present vitamin D3 schedule and your 25(OH)D should reach 80-90 ng/mL in another 3 to 4 weeks.

If you want to get up to a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 85 ng/mL faster, you can take 40,000 IU/day and skip the loading dose.  This should be quite safe. 

In either case, keep your doctor in the loop and have him schedule another lab test for 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH in another month.

Take care, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CrankieFrankie on Dec 26th, 2012 at 9:22am
Hi Batch,

Thank you for your response and concern.

I had an appointment with my neurologist last Thursday and I wanted to hug him by the end of it. He started with a low dose of Verapamil, which my body is already starting to respond to and gave me a prescription for Sumavel Needless shots. Those have been absolutely amazing for stopping the pain, although I've been saving those for emergencies because of the rebound headache I get 12 hours after taking the shot.

Although I did want to try to stick with the D3 regimen and isolate the individual components, I just could not take the pain any longer and had to go on something prescribed.

I do not use oxygen for aborting my headaches. Right now, since they are not following any logical timeline, I am almost never home when I get hit so trying to keep an oxygen tank nearby would be almost impossible for me.

Hopefully, the Verapamil will continue to help and if not, I will call my doctor to try to increase the dose after 2 weeks.

I hope you had a great holiday and I wish you a very Happy and Healthy New Year!

-Frankie

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Battig on Dec 26th, 2012 at 2:32pm
Batch,

   Thanks for the info. I think I will try to continue with the 50,000/20,000 IU until my next doctors appointment to get another D3 count.
As far as co-factors I am taking all except the magnesium which I ran out of but I will get more.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by pattik on Dec 27th, 2012 at 11:39am

Battig wrote on Dec 24th, 2012 at 4:46pm:
This cycle was very strange after starting the D3. My clusters seemed to turn into migraines or very long low kip clusters.


I had a very similar experience to yours while trying the D3 regimen. If my results are similar next time, I may try experimenting with using Imitrex tablets for the first time...who knows.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Battig on Dec 27th, 2012 at 2:09pm
Pattik,

My D3 count was still low at 48.8ng after taking the large amounts of D3 plus co-factors so I believe that if I can get it up to the prefered zone above 60ng that should help me eliminate them.

I did take zomig almost every day during this strange cycle and I have to say that the zomig worked much better eliminating the headaches then before I was taking the D3. Prior to the D3 the zomig was hit or miss sometimes having No effect on the headaches at all.

Good luck and I hope the Imitrex works better for you. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Dec 27th, 2012 at 8:26pm
Well what a bummer, the beast is back  >:( . I thought that I had been clever this year and have been using a sunbed for the last few weeks plus the omega, calcium etc etc to thwart the blighter but he rudely woke me this morning !!  Nasty little sh*# wont get me down though.
Wow batch, this has become a full blown novel since i was last here, I had better get reading  x x

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 28th, 2012 at 2:09pm
Hey Oxy...

There's no problem taking supplemental vitami D3 while generating cutaneous vitamin D3 from direct sunlight or tanning bed...  The body has built-in protection mechanisms to limit cutaneous vitamin D3 production if 25(OH)D levels start to get high.

Frankie, 

Thanks for the update.  It's good to hear you've got your CH under control.

Battig,

That your 25(OH)D is building slowly is possibly a sign that it's being metabolized to the active hormonal metabolite, calcitriol and being consumed as fast as it's generated.

There are several studies now showing serum 25(OH)D levels can drop as much as 30% when the body suffers an injury, an allergic reaction, viral/bacterial infection or any inflammatory disorder.

Take care and have a Happy New Year!

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Dec 28th, 2012 at 2:16pm
An interesting related article:

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Packman on Dec 29th, 2012 at 8:22am
After a terrible god awful night on thurs in which I been on verapamil and took 2 imitrex nasal to NO help.  I joined the site and got some great advice from Brew.  Anyhow yesterday I took 10,800 vita D3 the cal, mag, zinc, and a few omega 3 pills with my usual 10 mg melatonin.  I had an amazing day and sleep.  I am speechless.  If this works.......

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Dec 29th, 2012 at 10:30am
If that's the case, wow. For some - like me - it took almost 2 months before I saw any significant improvement. Others, well, you might be one of the others. We can hope. Do keep us posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Dec 29th, 2012 at 12:09pm
Yeah!!
It only took me 3 days and have been pain free for 70 days now but that's wonderful!! Everyone's different and just have to be a bit patient with this regimen if it doesn't work immediately. Unfortunately it doesn't work for everyone either but with 75% effectiveness you chances are good.
Love to hear the great results!! Best of luck to all that try this....Johnny ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hblaura on Dec 29th, 2012 at 2:21pm
I have sat here this morning and read this whole forum.  The man in my life has been having these since Sept, 2001 after a horrific car accident.  I haven't told him about this yet.  We are heading out to go get these supplements and I will instruct him on taking them, as I have read here.  I am not going to tell him what I have read and will see if and when he notices a difference.  I am not sure of all the lingo here.  He has done better this year, he always has the "shadow".  October thru March is when he really cycles,  last year he was in a "pain treatment center" from tuesday before Thanksgiving to the beginning of March with 4mg Dilaudid IV push every three hours. (he would be out for a few days at a time, but end up right backin) There was no "detox" before they sent him home, the next three weeks were hell because he decided to discontinue everything he was taking, all at one time.  He has been using Fentenyl patches, amytriptoline at night and xanax or valium to try to keep from getting hit hard but nothing is keeping them away.  He also takes Verapamil, I do not know the dosage.  We are heading to Walmart to get supplements TODAY!!  Will check back in, in a few days. 

Laura

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Dec 29th, 2012 at 3:13pm
On and off all those narcs, it's not surprising it seems like nothing's working. Some or most of what he's experiencing is likely "rebound" attacks. As almost everyone here has found, narcotics do virtually nothing for CH sufferers long-term.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Dec 29th, 2012 at 5:03pm
Hi Laura and welcome

Pain treatment centres tend to just focus on treating the pain of a CH without working to prevent / abort the CHs. Even the strongest narcotics hardly touch the pain of a CH and have all the side effects of dependency (lots of people here have experienced this).

The only standard CH medication that he has is verapamil. Typically this needs to be around 360-480mg a day to be effective for CH however for some people they need up to 1000mg (a LOT higher than people who use it for blood pressure control).

Has he got any means to abort a CH? Something like imitrex injections or oxygen (high flow rate & non-rebreather mask)? Using oxygen I kill my CHs in about 5 minutes with no side effects.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Dec 30th, 2012 at 4:14am
Back on the D3 regime and after only 2 days I slept through - well I say slept through but i must have woken 4 times waiting for beasty boy to kick in. fingers crossed for tonight  x

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Packman on Dec 30th, 2012 at 5:58am
Another amazing pain free day.  Hard to tell if my cycle is just over as its been 4 wks my avg or this regiment has done it.  Either way I am continuing it, can't risk them returning

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Dec 30th, 2012 at 9:00am
My last cycle was almost 3 years ago. I have remained on Batch's regimen, updating it each time he has tweaked it. I have no intention of going off of it, ever!

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Dec 30th, 2012 at 3:35pm

Guiseppi wrote on Dec 30th, 2012 at 9:00am:
I have no intention of going off of it, ever!


Same with me and it's not just been good for CHs, I've not had a single cold or other infection for about two years or so either.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Jan 2nd, 2013 at 1:10pm
I am still pain free after D3 as well as busting.  This cycle only lasted three weeks and I have never had a cycle shorter than two months in the 26 years I have been fighting.  Happy New Year!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 2nd, 2013 at 2:53pm
Hey Birdman,

That's great news and a wonderful way to start the new year...  Good on you!

If you stay on the anti-inflammatory regimen to keep you 25(OH)D serum concentration up in the green zone...  your next episodic cycle will most likely be a non-event...  and you won't need to wait for it to rise if you do stop taking it...

Give yourself another week... and if you've the time, please take the Anti-Inflammatory Survey.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jillko59 on Jan 2nd, 2013 at 8:31pm
Happy new year to all!  My husband has CH and I have been reading your posts about the regimen. There are so many stories of success its amazing.  Could you please describe the regimen again?  I got the D3 and fish oil for him yesterday but now I am reading about other things he should be taking.  Also, is there such a thing as too much vit d3?
Thanks so much for your help Batch. God bless u

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 2nd, 2013 at 8:53pm
It's a somewhat flexible regimen - and should be based on one's 25(OH)D serum test results. Here's what I'm currently taking each day:

  • 10,000 iu vitamin D3
  • 600mg calcium citrate (generic Citrical)
  • 50mg zinc
  • 240mg magnesium
  • 2 big-a$$ed fish oil soft-gels
  • 1 multi-vitamin for men over 50 (generic Centrum Silver) – contains the other trace vitamins you need for good vitamin D absorption (like vitamins A & K2 and Boron)

Edited to add: My target serum level for vitamin D - the 25(OH)D test – was between 60-110 ng/dl. When I started I was at 22. So I upped my routine to 20,000 iu/day with a loading dose of 50,000 iu once a week. After 2 months of that, my serum level came back at 72 ng/dl. And it was about 2 weeks before that that I went completely and utterly pain-free in the head.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ekallus on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 8:00am
Hello

This is my first post here so I thought I'd introduce myself.

I was diagnosed with episodic CH 12 years ago. I'm male, aged 55 and live in Oxford, UK.

My cluster episodes have been very regular, every 2 years and always late December. I was due to have an episode in December 2010 but it didn't happen. I thought that perhaps I'd outgrown them but yes, you've guessed, it came back in December 2012.

I usually get a few days warning before an episode, with increasing 'normal' headaches then light shadows starting. When this started to happen around Christmas, I checked out this site to see what, if anything, was new and found the D3 regime.

I started taking 30,000 IU of D3 a day, with 3600mg high EPA/DHA fish oil, plus cal/mag citrate and vit A and K, plus zinc. I have done this religiously for the last 8 days, spread across 3 doses.

In the past, my clusters were ultra regular. I would get 2 hits a day, one early evening around 6pm, the other at 2am, both usually around k 8-9 in intensity. I would take Cafergot suppositories to abort and this would work in most cases in around 20 minutes. I would also take half a cafergot tablet before bed as a preventative and this worked in most cases.

This cycle however is very different.

The hits started the day after Christmas but were around k 5-6 and of short intensity. They also happened at completely random times and would often occur around 2 hours apart. I have been able to abort them with ice packs to my neck and head. In the last 2 days, they have become more intense, growing steadily and reaching a k8 this morning which reduced with ice but stayed around as a k4-5 for almost 3 hours.

I have not taken any medicines apart from the D3 regimen and high caffeine drinks such as Red Bull.

I have a doctor's appointment today to get some ergotamine (probably Migril, as Cafergot is now no longer available in the UK). The triptans don't seem to work that well for me.

My Question: Is the completely random pattern of hits due to the D3 and how long might it take for this to start to have a significant effect? It's difficult to 'plan' for the attacks when they are completely random as they are now.

I realise that I'm very lucky compared to some of you here, in that my episodes are spread far apart.

Wishing all of you freedom from pain...

Regards
Ernst

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 1:16pm
Ernst, I know everyone reacts differently and I am sure someone like Batch will be along soon with a much better explanation than me.  I would think any change in the hits is a sign that something is going on.  Some folks report pain free results, others, lower intensity and less frequent.  Hopefully, when you continue taking the regiment things will improve.  Best wishes!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 1:49pm
Hey Ernst,

Welcome aboard CH.com and welcome to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  I'm sorry I didn't see your post earlier as I would have suggested you ask your PCP/neurologist for the lab test for 25(OH)D.  This is the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3 that's used to measure its status.

Not knowing your serum concentration of 25(OH)D makes it difficult to predict how long it will take for you to experience a favorable response with a cessation of your cluster headaches...  or at least a significant (~80%) decrease in the frequency, severity and duration of your CH.

If you didn't get this lab test today, be sure to call your PCP/neurologist and ask him or her to call in a script to the nearest diagnostic lab.  There are several located throughout the UK

The erratic nature of you CH symptoms is not uncommon...  Several CH'ers have reported similar patterns after starting this regimen.  Nearly all of them stuck with the regimen and experienced a favorable response when their 25(OH)D serum concentrations climbed into the "Green Zone" 60 to 110 ng/mL, (150 to 275 nmol/L for you in the UK).

At 30,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and assuming your 25(OH)D serum concentration was a little less than 75 nmol/L at start of this therapy, it should take a week to 10 days for a more favorable response to this regimen.

As long as you're otherwise healthy with no other comorbid medical conditions involving your liver, kidneys, thyroid, parathyroids, or pancreas... part of the erratic nature of your CH symptoms may be due to a low arterial/systemic pH...  Too much acid.

It doesn't take too much of a downward shift in pH to the lower end of the normal reference range of 7.35 to 7.46 to trigger vasodilation...  The lower the pH, the greater the vasodilation and that makes just about any cluster headache treatment less effective.

If you're getting hit while sleeping... the odds are high this is due to a low arterial pH.  This is due to the low respiration rate while sleeping where your arterial oxygen partial pressure is lowest and your CO2 partial pressure is highest.  In short, a prefect storm with a high probability to trigger a cluster headache.

Under these conditions, the body's homeostatic processes that control arterial pH kick in and they signal your arterioles and capillaries to dilate, your heart to beat faster and your lungs to increase the respiration rate.  You body does this to increase the flow of CO2 to the lungs where it's exhaled.

The easy way to test for a low arterial/systemic pH is by taking Alka-Seltzer tablets in water a couple times a day or a sodium bicarbonate tonic... i.e. a half teaspoon of baking soda in 4 ounces of water four times a day (two hours after eating and right before going to bed).

If either of these two methods result in a drop in the frequency, severity and duration of your CH... you'll need a longer term solution by eating an alkalizing/GOMBS diet.

GOMBS = Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans/Berries and Seeds...  a handful of each a day will do.  You can find info on a GOMBS diet at the following link:

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I didn't see any mention of oxygen therapy...  Even the 15 liters/minute prescribed there in the UK can make a significant difference in the duration of your cluster headaches.

I've attached the HOOF form used there in the UK.  Fill it out and take to your PCP/Neurologist to speed up the process of obtaining home oxygen therapy for your CH.

Take care, thanks again for the post, and please keep us posted on your progress with this regimen.

V/R, Batch


http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=HOOF_new_part_complete.pdf (230 KB | 2 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 4:25pm
Told ya!!  Batch rules. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ekallus on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:24am
Batch, birdman,

Thanks for your replies.

Batch, thanks for the HOOF form. I'm away from home at the moment but when I return, I'll organise this.

I have been taking the bicarb drinks as suggested and will continue with this.

I had some Migril (Ergotamine tartrate, Caffeine and Cyclizine) prescribed by my doctor and this has made a huge difference to me. I've been completely pain free now for almost 48 hours. I have been taking the lowest dose possible to keep the pain away, as long term use isn't recommended.

I've noticed that on here, very few people seem to use it, yet for me, it's the most effective preventative/abortive by far.

Does anyone else have experience of it?

One other thing that I wanted to mention. As part of my ongoing health supplements, I take Boswellia Serrata (Frankincense) as an anti inflammatory for joint pain. This is reported to have even greater effect than fish oil, although I take both together.
If you google 'boswellia serrata cluster headaches' there are some interesting reports that suggest that it's been helpful in clusters, 'tho it has only been reported on in a small number of tests. Might be worth exploring further?

I will continue with the D3 and supplements and will also reduce the Migril dose to see what the net effect is.

I'll keep you updated and thanks again for the support.

Regards
Ernst

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:33am
I took Cafergot in the early 80's, a combination of ergotamine and caffiene. It definitely helped, but being an oral med it took too long to kick in. Back then i never tried it as a prevent. As recently as 5 years ago, I was using it in combination with my oxygen. The oxygen would kill the attack in 6-8 minutes, the cafergot would push any return attack back by as much as 12 hours.

I found that energy drinks combined with oxygen worked just as well as the cafertgot so I finally dumped it completely.

I've been on the "Batch Regimen" for almnost 3 years and haven't had a cycle. Crossing my fingers and my toes.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by heliftsmeup on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:48am
Hi all. I am the wife of a ch sufferer who is writing up an intro post right now.  He is about 5 weeks into a cycle that is progressively getting worse.  He uses o2 to abort which often helps but has had a couple kip 8s that were relentless untill he used sumaptriptan.  I had him pop about 8000iu d3 last night, he takes omega 3 fish oil and coq10 every day as well.
I have read a lot of this strand but 46 pages is a bit overwhelming.  What should he do at this point go start the regimen?  He is going to ask his dr for testing on vit d levels but I don't want to wait to start.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:56am

heliftsmeup wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:48am:
I have read a lot of this strand but 46 pages is a bit overwhelming.  What should he do at this point go start the regimen?  He is going to ask his dr for testing on vit d levels but I don't want to wait to start.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:17pm
Brew gave you a good link...

Don't wait.  Have your husband start the regimen now.  Just make sure he sees his PCP to get the lab test as soon as possible.  Knowing the serum concentration of 25(OH)D will take some of the guessing out of his response time.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by heliftsmeup on Jan 6th, 2013 at 1:56pm
Thanks Brew and Batch (sounds like a cooking duo).  One other point... hubby and I have been low carbing for over a year now which is low inflamation diet already.  Don't know if that changes anything. 
Peace

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:35pm
A low carbohydrate diet should help...  Once you get your husband started on this regimen...  join him.

My wife has been on this regimen taking 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for two years and loves it...  She was a chronic migraineur for over 20 years...  hasn't had one since starting this regimen...  On top of that, neither of us has had a cold or the flu while on this regimen.

She feels great, looks great and has more energy than I've seen in years.  She also kicked the heck out of 75 last month...  Go figure.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JoeS on Jan 7th, 2013 at 10:22am
Hi guys, I'm back after a two-year remission and am just reading this topic for the first time.    I just started this regimen and have great hope after reading the many success stories.     I will revisit this thread periodically to report on my success or lack thereof.   Thanks to Batch and the many others who have spent so much time to share their insight and experiences.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:06pm
Hi Guys and Batch
Dropping in, coming up to my time of year, have been on the maintenance level of the dose since the last episode.  Have just got my pre indicator of a batch coming, a lower left mouth ulcer, so am going to load 50K tomorrow morning and up the dose to 20K daily with extra cofactors. Am hoping the batch holds off until after my 50th in Feb, really want to be able to celebrate properly!
Pain free days and nights to you all, listen to Batch he is an absolute mine of useful info on our condition.
Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by heliftsmeup on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:11pm
Okay, we are trying to balance things out to eliminate the sumatriptan. But the last two days have been awful.  More frequent hits since upping the d3.   just went to the pharmacy and got the other vitamins in the regimen and will start that today.  Any other thoughts would be helpful.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:34pm

heliftsmeup wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:11pm:
Any other thoughts would be helpful.

Make sure you are attempting to abort with oxygen the proper way:

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When done right, most CH attacks can be aborted in 4-6 minutes.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:49pm
HLMU,

Brew is spot on...  Oxygen therapy if used properly and early can be a Godsend...

Don't forget to try the Arm & Hammer baking soda tonic four times a day (2 hours after eating and right before bed...  A half teaspoon of baking soda in 4 ounces of water should do the trick...  The directions are on the box... 

If you don't have any baking soda handy try a couple Alka-Seltzers twice a day...

Either method should elevate any low arterial/systemic pH and that should lessen possible vasodilation that makes cluster headaches much worse and more frequent.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by heliftsmeup on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:41pm
Thanks for all your wisdom.  Yesterday was another bad day, but today has been much better!  Tim is working midnight shifts this week, which really scared him.  He was good through the night but woke every 45 minutes to an hour with kip 4 or 5 once he got home with a kip 7 or 8 to start and another 8 or upon waking. 
He started full d3 vit regimine yesterday with calcium citrate, magnesium, fish oil, and a multivit with zinc and vit k as suggested.  And today he has only had one 5 in mid sleep!  Praying for another good day tomorrow!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:29pm
HLMU,

Your husband is working in the right direction... Tell him to have a little faith and hang on...  Odds are in his favor it's going to be worth the wait.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JoeS on Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:55pm
Just a quick update from me:  after 5 days of Vit. D3 + cofactors, the jury's still out on if it is helping my head.   I am completely PF during the day but still getting hit at night.    I'm not sure if the D3 is causing the  pain-free days, because my cycles usually start slowly and later ramp up to hits during all hours.

On a (very) positive note, this anti-inflammatory regimen has all but eliminated my lower back pain, so even if the effect on my clusters turns out to be minimal, I owe a great deal of thanks to this thread.   

--Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 9th, 2013 at 3:17pm
5 days could mean you're just getting started. It took some of us two months. Hang in there and KEEP IT UP!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:38pm
Hi

Started the vitamin d and magnesium february 2009, and have been pain free ever since. Almost 4 years  :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:48pm

nhs wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:38pm:
Hi

Started the vitamin d and magnesium february 2009, and have been pain free ever since. Almost 4 years  :D

How long before you saw significant improvement? And how much do you take? Did you have load up big on the front end?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Jan 9th, 2013 at 7:31pm

Brew wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

nhs wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:38pm:
Hi

Started the vitamin d and magnesium february 2009, and have been pain free ever since. Almost 4 years  :D

How long before you saw significant improvement? And how much do you take? Did you have load up big on the front end?


I started with 100 µg and 200 mg magnesium after a CH period feb 09. I normal get CH 3-4 periods per year and was surprised that my normally period in May didn't showed up, and it have never returned.

Today I take 5000 IU Vitamin D3, 600 mg Magnesium, 50 mg Zinc, Vitamin-K2 and Boron.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 9th, 2013 at 7:46pm

nhs wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 7:31pm:
I started with 100 µg and 200 mg magnesium after a CH period feb 09. I normal get CH 3-4 periods per year and was surprised that my normally period in May didn't showed up, and it have never returned.

Today I take 5000 IU Vitamin D3, 600 mg Magnesium, 50 mg Zinc, Vitamin-K2 and Boron.

Thank you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Bay Area85678 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:49pm
I know vitamin D increases oxygen levels in the blood. Is this how its supposed to work on CH?  the same way inhaling pure oxygen works?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:08pm
Bay Area...

The mechanism of action provided by vitamin D3 in preventing cluster headache... more accurately, its hormonal metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3 (calcitriol), remains essentially unknown and unproven at this point. 

We do know that vitamin D3 and Omega 3 fish oil both have anti-inflammatory properties...  and this may play a role in suppressing the neurogenic inflammation associated with the cluster headache syndrome.

More specifically, vitamin D3 has been identified as having the capacity to suppress or down regulate (inhibit) the calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP), both of which are elevated during a cluster headache... and migraine headaches as well.

Hyperoxia (more oxygen in the blood than normal) plays a key role in aborting cluster headaches... as does the hypocapnea (lower than normal blood CO2 concentrations) associated with hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis...

I'm not sure of any causal relationship between vitamin D3 and increased blood oxygen content...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Bay Area85678 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:32pm
I don't know why I thought it affected the oxygen levels in the blood.  Interesting though how it reduces the inflammation .  I've been taking 4000 iu a day the past couple weeks but I think i need to up the dose and add the Fish oil and Magnesium.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:47pm
Bay Area...

The mechanism of action provided by vitamin D3 in preventing cluster headache... more accurately, its hormonal metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3 (calcitriol), remains essentially unknown and unproven at this point. 

We do know that vitamin D3 and Omega 3 fish oil both have anti-inflammatory properties...  and this may play a role in suppressing the neurogenic inflammation associated with the cluster headache syndrome.

More specifically, vitamin D3 has been identified as having the capacity to suppress or down regulate (inhibit) the calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP), both of which are elevated during a cluster headache... and migraine headaches as well.

Hyperoxia (more oxygen in the blood than normal) plays a key role in aborting cluster headaches... as does the hypocapnea (lower than normal blood CO2 concentrations) associated with hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis...

I'm not sure of any causal relationship between vitamin D3 and increased blood oxygen content...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Jan 11th, 2013 at 9:29am
Still plugging away pain free.  Took the survey as it has been a little over a month.  So excited to have additional means of fighting this horrible condition.  And it took work and research from folks here..not in some lab full of doctors and scientists, to possibly come up with a plan that helps around 75% of sufferers.  Am I the only one amazed by that??? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sleepytimetea on Jan 11th, 2013 at 10:58am
I have been taking 10,000iu Vitamin D3, 2000mg Fish Oil, 500mg/250mg Cal-Mag Citrate and a daily vitamin  since Jan. 3rd, I believe and you can add me to the pain free ranks.  Unbelievable the difference simple OTC stuff makes.  I have imitrex nasal spray and injections on stand by, but as of now, no need.  Thank you so much, Batch.  If I were Catholic I would nominate you for Sainthood.  I still get shadows at the times of day my CH would strike, usually around 6pm and/or 11pm, but they have no pain.  Heart rate goes up, I get a bit twitchy in the left eye and can feel the tingles, but it's like it can't get any type of foothold to really set in.  I am with everyone else when using words like "cure"... but in my 17 years of dealing with these things, this is by far and way the best (and easiest) treatment I've found.  Thanks again!   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by believer88 on Jan 12th, 2013 at 8:22am
Been a while since I've been on guys...I'm back.

My Ch'er (my fiancé) is starting into his period this past week...last night I forced the D3 regimen down his throat and I'm making him take it every day (he is very bad at remembering pills...you would think the pain would keep him from forgetting). We are being very positive, and I am also getting him to find an oxygen tank since I already bought him the optimask. I will keep posting weekly in here at least. I love reading the feedback on this thread!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by athome on Jan 12th, 2013 at 1:17pm
Beyond excited to have found this post.... Have been on Viatmin D and Fish Oil for a week - working up to the dose others have mentioned.  It definitely has had a positive effect on the beast.  Not as strong and less frequent.  Thank you for helping us! :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 1961mom on Jan 13th, 2013 at 3:22pm
That CGRP stuff is so interesting.....Here's a good, geeky read.  I've copied and pasted the beginning of the CH related paragraph below......what's also interesting is in another study I read we (primary headache patients) are known to have as high as 35% elevation of this substance in our central nervous system as compared to non patients.   :o

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A. CGRP and Cerebral Conditions

The most compelling evidence of a role for CGRP in a pain syndrome comes from sufferers of migraine and cluster headache. Studies have shown that CGRP levels are raised during the painful phases of both conditions (120, 122) and are restored to basal levels by successful migraine treatment with triptan 5-HT1 agonists, providing evidence that the trigeminal sensory nervous system is activated (260).


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JoeS on Jan 14th, 2013 at 11:03am
I don't want to jinx myself, but after 10 days of this regimen, I see the light at the end of the tunnel.   This past Fri + Sat were just terrible, but yesterday I only had a low-level shadow all day and it never progressed beyond that level, even at night.  Today is similar so far, but the shadows are even more subtle.  This is pretty characteristic of the end of my cycles, and  if that is the case it will be (by far) the shortest cycle that I can remember.  Hoping to report confirmation in a few more days.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 15th, 2013 at 12:42am
Hey Joe,

Thanks for the post with your response to the anti-inflammatory regimen...

Off hand, I would say you're having a favorable response to vitamin D3...  The best advise at this point is keep taking this regimen and don't worry about looking back...  efficacy or end of cycle are both very acceptable outcomes...

There's really only one way to determine if the cessation/reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of your CH is due to this regimen or end of cycle...  and that's to stop taking it...

I realize this might sound a bit extreme... like shooting yourself in the foot... or head...  but that said, if this regimen is really working to prevent your CH...  all you need to do is jump back on it as soon as the CH symptoms take a turn for the worse...  At least that way you'll know for sure if it's really working to prevent your CH.

As a chronic CH'er, I was just as confused as you are at this point when the frequency of my CH dropped from 4 to 5 hits a night to none after two days on this regimen...  so a week later I stopped taking it...  The CH came back in less than 24 hours... 

I got back on this regimen and stayed pain free fore another 13 months when I did another burn down test of my 25(OH)D reserves...  It took 8 days to deplete my 25(OH)D reserves to the tipping point where I got hit with a classic Kip-6...  Getting back on the regimen had me again pain free in less than 12 hours.  That was over two years ago... I'm still pain free...  but I also know I still have this disorder...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Leo VF on Jan 15th, 2013 at 7:27pm
Guys, where do I start?

My name is Leo, I am 30, and I live in Săo Paulo, Brazil.

It was the beginning of last December, I got hit for the first time in my life. Unfortunately it coincided with a lunch/meeting with friends, and alcohol was involved. So I lost my virginity to a Kip 10, taken to the ER by my wife, telling her strangely in the mix of all that, how much I loved her, 'cause I really believed I was having a stroke or something else that could end that conversation very abruptly. It was the beginning of a long December.

You know how the tail goes from there: PCPs, I.V morphine, neurologists, imaging, and... Nothing. Blank faces. Two weeks visiting different hospitals and 3 neurologists later, I finally cracked. I started searching my symptoms and quickly found you guys. By the time I had finished reading the introduction page, I was self diagnosed.

It took me 3 weeks to find out what I was going through, thanks to you and this website. Yesterday I went back to my last neurologist and discussed with her the diagnosis. She looked to me a little bit like this  :o after what I said, and had to agree it was just not a migraine. I then looked like this  >:( .

Long story short, I already had an O2 tank by my bed when she recommended it. I also started last week on Batch's D3 anti-inflamatory regimen.

I am glad (and with eyes full of tears) to say I am PAIN FREE for five days now. I hope you guys can understand the difference you can make in peoples lives and don't ever take this for granted. I'd just like to say, on behalf of me and my family, thank you for giving me my life back.

I believe everything happens for a reason. And it sure made me look with different eyes to every morning I now wake up pain free and full of energy.

Hope to make good friends here, and believe me, I fell like I know you guys already.

Not ready for the beer test just yet...  ;D

Thanks once again.

Leo

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:06am
I must be doing something wrong, missing something, not sure what because the CH keep coming back  >:(  I will have a couple of pain free days and then back they come for about a week and then disappear again for a couple of nights again.  I am now taking 10,000 iu D3, 1000mg omega oil, 500mg calcium, 133mg magnesium and 15mg zinc morning and evening with a meal and with lemonade. I have low ph levels every morning and manage to get them to a healthy level by the evening. I have tried the alka seltzer at night but it doesn't seem to have had any effect.
I have checked the doseage against what I took last time and they are all the same except the D3 which I have upper by 5000iu a day. Any advice on what I have missed would be much appreciated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:24am
Have you had your serum 25(OH)D level checked recently? If it's in the preventive range, you may want to consult with an endocrinologist as you may have other comorbid factors going on.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:42am
Hi Brew,
Cant get to see my Dr for 5 weeks!!! unbelievable for the UK and even then I will have to almost beg for the blood test!! I could start taking a mulit-vitamin in case anything else is low?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 16th, 2013 at 12:57pm
I take a multi-vitamin to get the trace substances that are recommended (vitamin K, boron).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Jan 16th, 2013 at 5:31pm
Right, gonna get some multi vitamins tomorrow and add then to the cocktail  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Leo VF on Jan 16th, 2013 at 5:51pm
Today I woke up with a shadow that is still around.
I was 5 days PF...

Strange, I thought it was gone.

9 days on the regimen. Will not stop it.
I will try and get a blood work done by next week.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 16th, 2013 at 6:12pm
Leo - It took me 2 months on the regimen (and that was a "souped up" version) before I became pain free. At first I was taking 20,000 iu of vitamin D3 with a loading dose of 50,000 iu once per week. Let not your heart be troubled. Stay the course.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Leo VF on Jan 16th, 2013 at 6:30pm
My regimen (I am taking it after dinner) because I usually don't eat breakfast and having all this on an empty stomach is no good. Should I force myself to eat in the morning and move the regimen?

Here it is:

A to Z multi-vitamin
vitamin D3 Oil - 10 Drops (each drop is 1000 u.i)
Fish Oil 3000mg
Calcium Citrate 500mg +Magnesium 80mg +Zinc 10mg

Does this sound right?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 16th, 2013 at 6:33pm
Oxy,

There are a number of medical diagnostic labs located across the UK like the following links below...

Most do not require a physician's written prescription... As I recall, the cost of this lab test is less there in the UK than it is here in the US at $65 USD.

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You can also order the 25-Hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] blood spot home test kit at the link below for Ł25:

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Take care and keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by neuropath on Jan 17th, 2013 at 5:41am
I am giving Batch 3.0 another try (3rd attempt) and have started to experience an increase in frequency of attacks (as have others I believe).

The attacks are softer and more acidic in their onset, generally linger longer and take more time to shoot down with O2. Is this something that others have experienced? If so, did it eventually lead to an improvement?

I am using 30,000 D3 and the other ingredients as recommended. Is it advisable to spread the intake across the whole day to perhaps minimise the phenomenon, which generally sets in approx 3 hours after taking the whole dose. From then on I get hit approx. every 2 hours.




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 17th, 2013 at 9:14am
Neuropath,

Good question.  The available literature on the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3 suggest taking it with the Omega 3 fish oil and with the largest meal of the day to increase absorption.  If you still want to split the dose try to take it with each meal.

Regarding an up-tic in the frequency of your CH when starting or restarting this regimen... this has been reported by a few CH'ers...  Nearly all of them also reported the frequency dropped as they built their 25(OH)D reserves.

What were the results of your latest lab test for 25(OH)D?  It appears the body starts consuming vitamin D3 metabolites at higher rates in the presence of viral infections like a cold or the flu...  Magnesium, zinc and vitamin A become even more important when this happens.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shager132 on Jan 17th, 2013 at 11:57am
Hello everyone, Shane here...new to the group but not the pain.

35yr male
Episodic
Right-Side
2-4 per day
10 week duration (typically)

Migraines as a kid, full blown cluster cycle when I was about 21-22. Misdiagnosed and treated for several years until about 4 years ago. After Spinal Taps, sinus scans, worthless pain killers finally started to get some meds. that actually had a chance to do something...here I am, 2nd week into my January cycle and pretty fed up but hopeful.

After painfully trying to read many of our stories (painfully because staring at my ipad after a day of PC work with headaches an no sleep seems to be an olympic like tough event), I was so happy to hear of the success many of you have had to Batch's vitamin trial. I immediately drug my self to the store and picked up my bag of vitamins and went home to start.

To start:
10,000iu D3
1200iu Fish Oil Soft Tab
240 magnesium
50mg Zinc
600mg Calcium Citrate
1 Chewable Multi-vitamin

So, I have hopes that working with this can at least reduce the severity after awhile and tinkering with the dosages over time. Regardless, thank you all because even if it doesn't work for me, it gives me a small glimmer of hope that something can assist this ridiculous and IMO overlooked illness.

(Past Meds)
Depakote
Topamax
Prednizone
Robaxin
Indomethacin
Acupuncture
Massages
DHE Injections (used nightly as a preventative for the next day so i could work...did well for me but you can only stab yourself so many times or afford enough meds)

After realizing I was self prescribing because my Neuro. was out of ideas as well as incorrectly set up up with O2 with a minimal flow rate and nostril thingys instead of a mask, I took my services elsewhere to a headache clinic at Wake Forrest University. My new Neuro. immediately said "wow, yeah these cocktails were not what i would have used..." - shocker.

So, last week she started me on Pred and Immitrex Pills which was a bit discouraging since the pills only set in about an hour after I already have the headache.

Now finishing my taper of Pred and started Verapamil (80mg for 1st week, then 120mg next week)
This along with my Batch-Vit cocktail I hope will et me on the right path. I have another appointment with her next week so I hope to discuss getting some O2/with mask and flow rates as discussed here as well.

Lastly, to get 30 seconds (which is a lot with the beast) relief, I would even sniff warm salt water up into my sinus on the right side in hopes to unblock and relieve the pressure which does help, but again, for only a very small but welcome 30 seconds.

I apologize if this was too much info for this topic, but Im very excited to see how Batch's Vit. will work for me. I will keep you posted and pray for everyone of you!




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 17th, 2013 at 2:57pm
Hey Shane,

Welcome to CH.com and to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  You've come to the right place.

Were you able to get the lab test for 25(OH)D when you saw your new neurologist?  If not, call him and ask if he will call in a script to the local medical diagnostic lab so you can get this test.

The normal reference range for the 25(OH)D lab test is a serum concentration of 30 to 100 ng/mL.  Most CH'ers with active CH who have gone in for this lab test before starting this regimen or within a few days after starting it, have tested deficient... i.e. less than 30 ng/mL.

Once you've been on the basic anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for thee to four days, to make sure you don't have a reaction to any of the supplements, you can do what other CH'ers have done and bump the vitamin D3 dose up to 20,000 IU/day plus a once a week loading dose of 50,000 IU vitamin D3. 

Doing this will speed up the process of building your 25(OH)D reserves into the "green zone" (60 to 110 ng/mL) where most CH'ers have reported a sustained pain free response.

It's best to stay on this vitamin D3 dosing strategy for a week to 10 days after you start having a favorable response.  At that point you can drop the loading dose, but stay at 20,000 IU/day for at least a month then get tested again for 25(OH)D. 

Once your 25(OH)D serum concentration is in the green zone, a maintenance dose of 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 should be sufficient to keep you there.

We've a growing number of episodic CH'ers who have stayed on this regimen throughout the year after their "regular" cycle ended...  Most of them have sailed pain free through the next cycle...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 18th, 2013 at 2:35am
Can someone post the link to the home test kit for 25(OH)D?  Tried searching the thread but couldn't find it.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 18th, 2013 at 1:42pm
Here you go...

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They even have a video that gives you the "How To" collect blood spots at home for analysis by ZRT Labs.

I keep two of their test kits on hand at all times...

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 18th, 2013 at 1:50pm
Thanks Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jan 18th, 2013 at 2:38pm
Hey batch and all

Ian here, just done a test, 213nmol, after being on the regimen for 10 months now properly.  Was 193 Nmol 4 weeks after the end of last episode in June/July.  Have been taking 20k plus cofactors every day, should I ramp that back to 15k? 

Hope we are all keeping pain free.

Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 18th, 2013 at 5:18pm
Hey Ian,

Good question...  A stable 25(OH)D serum concentration of 213 nmol/L, (85.2 ng/mL), is dead center in the middle of the therapeutic green zone for cluster headache as you can see in the following chart developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD...

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Understand that these curves represent an "average" 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3 dose... and that no matter the dose, all curves reach an equilibrium and stabilize by the 5th to 6th month.

That 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus the cofactors is holding your 25(OH)D serum concentration between 193 and 213 nmol/L, and you're not having any other problems...  I wouldn't change a thing...

You're body is likely consuming 25(OH)D and the active hormonal vitamin D3 metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3 at higher rates than the average CH'er so I wouldn't worry that it's taking 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to hold your 25(OH)D serum concentration stable at 213 nmol/L.

If you stay at your present dose of vitamin D3, I suspect your next CH cycle will be a non-event... and you'll sail through it pain free...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jan 19th, 2013 at 3:35am
Hi Batch

Thank you once more for the advice.  I am just about 4 weeks off my time of the year for my next episode, I am 50 in 3 weeks and hoping to be able to celebrate appropriately!! ;D.  I will test again in 4 weeks and see where I am and let you know.

What I really like about this thread is that each time I come back you have researched further and have added more information for us all to digest.  Thank you so much for this.  A colleague asked me the other day about who are my guru's, need I say more!

Cheers

Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Jan 19th, 2013 at 9:24am
64 male, 22yr CH fighter, 15yrs w/6 different neurologist, name it I have tried it (except this regime and ClusterBuster regime).
Episodic for 15yrs (CH Oct-Apr, PF other months), then chronic for 3yrs, finally got neuro to let me try lithium and was pain free for almost two years.  Now "They're back!!!" and yes they started in Oct 2012

Current meds:  Lithium 300mg twice/day, Verapamil 240mg twice/day

"Normal" day:  Light ghost comes and goes most of the day, if I try to nap usually will wake after an hour with K3-4 ache (O2 for 10min will abort), to sleep I go--1 to 2 hrs later will wake with ache and can be K2 to K7, if low just O2 and back to sleep if high will take half Relpax then O2.  Once or twice a month have K20!! (ha-ha) and keep trex shots available for these special occasions.  4 hours after shot will take whole Relpax, CH will rebound from trex without Relpax.

Company closed last April (after 12 years with them), lost job and insurance, had stockpiled Relpax and Imitrex, other meds and O2 cost about $200/month.  Money is an issue and results sound promising for this regime.

Found this thread last night and am own my way to Walmart for D&OIL, will keep posting as to results.  Assuming this starts to work, should I taper off the Lithium and Verapamil at same time or Lithium first and then Verapamil?

Always ask the prettiest girls to dance, all they can say is 'No!"

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 19th, 2013 at 3:23pm
Hey there Enli,

Welcome to CH.com and also to the Anti-inflammatory regimen...

You can find the complete list of the supplements in this regimen along with dosing, vitamin D3 dosing strategies, drug interactions and contraindications at the following link:

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The vitamin D3 cofactors, magnesium, zinc, vitamin A, vitamin K2 and boron are important...  They're essential components of the anti-inflammatory regimen as they all aid in the proper metabolism of vitamin D3.

Regarding tapering off the lithium and verapamil once you start having a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3... 

I'm not a doctor so it's best to consult with the physician who prescribed these medications about how best to stop taking them.

When you do check with him ask for a scrip for the 25-Hydroxyvitamin D, a.k.a. 25(OH)D lab test.  If that route of getting this lab test too expensive, you can order it for $65 from ZRT Labs at the links below:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Jan 21st, 2013 at 11:05pm
Hi Batch, I have been following your posts for a couple of years. Have had CH for 2 1/2years, longest time without a headache has been 19 days. All this began from pain of a compressed 9th cranial nerve, had subsequent surgery to decompress nerve. My neurologists (yes, have 2 monitoring me!) say the migraines are from hyper stimulated nervous system from so long of chronic unrelenting pain. Well, now the nerve issue is resolving but still have my life compromised from 3 varietals of migraines..cluster, old-fashioned with aura triggered by bright lights, and another random crushing type migraine. THe last 2 respond well to imitrex but the cluster is a beast of its own. I have tried : high dose B vits,magnesium,5000iu D3,2 grams Omega 3, Folic Acid 1000mg,O2,caffeine, etc on and on. Ready to up my D3 and add NAMENDA to the mix. Has anyone tried it with success? I developed severe,permanent neuropathy in my extemities from the Topomax. Sumavel (needless injectable imitrex) and Tordal injectable give good relief of most of my migraines but one is restricted on how frequent that can be used ie 4x/month max.. Doesn't help much when the headaches are daily.
Well, I appreciate having this blog for support. You think it sucks for you but when you read this, you realize that no matter how bad I have it, someone has it worse.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 22nd, 2013 at 1:11am
Hey 9thNerve,

Thanks for the post...  It sounds like you've been through the laundry list of standards of care CH medications and some of the homeopathic remedies as well...

Namenda (memantine HCl) is a new one on me...  There are several posts about namenda here at CH.com, but I don't recall any CH'ers report taking it with the anti-inflammatory regimen or report it in their survey comments.  I assume it was prescribed for your migraine headaches...

Let's start with the lab test for 25(OH)D.  Have you seen your PCP or neurologists about the lab test for this metabolite of vitamin D3?  Knowing your 25(OH)D status can be a big help in determining how long it's going to take for a favorable response to this regimen.

If you have, what were the results?  If not, it's a good idea to put this lab test on your list of things to do...

The complete list of supplements in the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen along with the dosing guide, vitamin D3 dosing strategies, drug interactions and contraindications can be found at the following link:

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So far the raw efficacy of this regimen (for episodic and chronic CH'ers combined) is at 79% and growing...

The green zone for the 25(OH)D reported by CH'ers who have had a favorable response to this regimen is 60 to 110 ng/mL, or a target serum concentration of 85 ng/mL. 

That usually requires a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day along with Omega 3 fish oil and vitamin D3 cofactors... but many CH'ers use the accelerated dosing strategy to go pain free a lot faster then drop back to 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day as a maintenance dose.

Just be aware that too many neurologists are not fans of vitamin D3 therapy and tend to discourage their patients from taking it.  Stick to your guns.

As a side note... the anti-inflammatory regimen is proving to be very effective in preventing migraine headaches...  My wife was a 20 year chronic migraineur with monthy attacks coming like clockwork until she started this regimen two years ago...  Hasn't had one since

Shoot me a PM if you have questions...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Jan 22nd, 2013 at 10:39am
I love my PCP.  Called yesterday and left a message with his Medical Assistant:

"Hi.  I need Dr. Luna to order a 25-Hydroxyvitamin D screening for me."

Got a call this morning "Steve, your requested order has been submitted.  You can go to any CompuNet Testing Facility and they will have the order in their computer, or just stop by the office."

Good service.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Jan 22nd, 2013 at 11:43am
Also, two days of "Batch Regimen" and I've had no night time hits (my pattern has been two hits one night, none the next night during this cycle), and I just had a little baby K-3/4 daytime hit.  That's new.  I usually only have the daytime hits once or twice right at the end of my cycle, which isn't really expected for another couple weeks.  Hmmm.... worth noting.

Edit:  One more thing to note, I've been struggling with anxiety and depression for years (much more so during the winter months), and perhaps it's just placebo, but I'm starting to feel that burden lifting a little... I felt a little better yesterday, and even better today.  Even despite the beast, I feel like I have a little pep in my step.  Here's to hoping this trend continues.  If it does, I'm going to owe you a beer over Skype, Mr. Batch!   :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 22nd, 2013 at 1:19pm
DJP,

Looking forward to your Skype call...  but a beer isn't really necessary...  Just keep the observations on your response to the anti-inflammatory regimen coming...  And when you get the 25(OH)D lab test, we'd like to hear the results.

The comments you've posted so fare are consistent with positive/beneficial side effects listed by 56% of CH'ers who have taken the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Survey.

Thanks again for the update and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by neuropath on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 9:11am
Update on previous post re D3 regimen increasing/altering attack pattern.

Attending a business lunch and dinner 3 days ago and having fish on both occasions, I decided to take the regimen as usual but excluding the Omega 3 on that day, for I had always felt that the Omega didnt sit well in my stomach after taking it, after experiencing the increased CH activity and after having consumed enough natural Omega 3 that day.

The following day, for the first time in my current cycle, I started converting from 4-6 KIP7s a day to very nasty shadows (in other words a good day at the office). The day thereafter (no Omega 3) shadows lessened and I had 1 KIP3 (done in 1 min on O2). Today activity has lessened even further.

Early days, but there definitely is a change for the better.

Perhaps something to consider for people for whom the regimen hasnt worked yet. Underlines Batch's suggestion of going through a process of elimination to establish if any of the ingredients is obstructing the overall success due to intolerance or other factors.

My annual high cycles have been occurring with clock work precision and although I am now 2/3 through my sentence, it would normally not be for another 2-3 weeks until I would see light at the end of the tunnel.

Planning my next fish meal and will keep you updated on progress. Hopefully soon I can have a Puligny-Montrachet to go with it....



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 12:45pm
Hey Neuropath,

Thanks for the update...  Have you had your 25(OH)D tested recently?  If so, what was the serum concentration? 

This lab test is important in order to correlate any changes in your CH symptoms with your increase in 25(OH)D concentrations while on this regimen.

Take care and please continue to keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by kev on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 5:43pm
I have been suffering bad for the past 4 months.  I have tried everything including mushrooms, seeds and all conventional therapies.  I have been on the Vit D regimen now for 2 weeks.  2  weeks ago my vit D level was 48, hopefully I will get to the therapeautic range soon.  Yesterday i got desperate and had Botox injections done and last night I was pain free and slept 10 hours.  Both Botox and Vitamin D inhibit CGRP and I hope this continues to work.  Thanks Batch for all your research and insight.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 6:48pm
Hey Batch,

So I finally took a 25(OH)D test and got my results back today.  My levels are insanely high (171.2 ng/mL) but my cycle persists.  This has been my regimen for a past few months:

After breakfast:
- D3 10,000 IU
- Omega-3 Fish Oil 1000mg

After lunch:
- Omega-3 Fish Oil 1000mg

30 minutes before dinner w/ lemonade:
- Calcium Citrate 1000 mg (includes D3 250 IU, Magnesium 80 mg, Zinc 7.5 mg, Copper 1 mg, Manganese 1 mg, Boron 0.5 mg)
- Magnesium 400 mg

After dinner:
- D3 10,000 IU
- Omega-3 Fish Oil 1000 mg

Once a week:
- D3 50,000 IU (10,000 IU at a time)


I actually bumped my daily D3 intake from 20,000 to 25,000 IU about 5 days ago since my cycle was reaching peak intensity.  Also, added a baking soda tonic 4 times a day. 

So per my results, I should scale down my D3 intake right?  Could the high 25(OH)D levels actually be making it worse?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 23rd, 2013 at 7:08pm
Hey Kev,

Thanks for the post and welcome aboard CH.com.  Welcome also to the anti-inflammatory regimen.

10 hours of uninterrupted pain free sleep in the middle of a cluster headache cycle is hard to argue or complain about no matter how or why it happened.

The average 25(OH)D response to a 10,000 IU/day dose of vitamin D3 is illustrated in the top curve in following chart.

It assumes a starting 25(OH)D serum concentration of 27 ng/mL.  If you shift the starting point up to the 48 ng/mL your test results indicated two weeks ago and leave the final concentration at the 140 day level as shown, two weeks at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 should have you at or near a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 ng/mL.

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Please understand the word "average" and the term "1 SEM" as used in this chart.  Average is a measure of the "middle" or "typical" value of a data set. It is thus a measure of central tendency. 

The standard error of the mean (1 SEM) is the standard deviation of the sample-mean's estimate of a population mean. (It can also be viewed as the standard deviation of the error in the sample mean relative to the true mean).   

So much for statistics...  All this really means is your response to this regimen should be close to the curves illustrated in this chart.. 

That said, based on the data collected in the online survey of CH'ers who started this regimen... 60% of them responded to this regimen with a favorable response within the first 5 days after starting it...  We've also a growing number of CH'ers who required vitamin D3 doses of 20,000 IU/day plus a weekly loading dose of 50,000 IU to achieve a favorable response.

The bottom line... it may help improve your response to this regimen by increasing the vitamin D3 dose to 20,000 IU/day and add the weekly 50,000 IU loading dose... 

Talk with your PCP about this and try to get tested again for your 25(OH)D in a couple weeks.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by neuropath on Jan 24th, 2013 at 1:00am
Just got my D3 levels and they are entry level green zone at 65, after one week of 30,000 IU. 3rd day with milder shadows than yesterday.

Do you suggest staying at 30,000 for a while longer?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 24th, 2013 at 5:30am
Hey Neuropath,

Thanks for the update and 25(OH)D lab results.  It appears you're still below the pain free tipping point.

Staying at a vitamin D3 dose of 30,000 IU/day for another couple weeks would appear prudent...  At that point you can drop back to a maintenance dose of 15,000 IU/day.

A vitamin D3 dosing schedule like this should elevate your 25(OH)D reserves comfortably into the pain free green zone and keep you there. It will take another 3 to 4 months for your 25(OH)D serum concentration to reach equilibrium and stabilize.

As you're still experiencing cluster headache symptoms at a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 65 ng/mL, your effective therapeutic level of this metabolite is likely near 85 ng/mL

Be sure to see your PCP or neurologist for the 25(OH)D lab test after two weeks on the maintenance dose to check your progress. 

After that, a 25(OH)D lab test every 6 months should be more than sufficient unless your cluster headaches return. 

My wife has been taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for over two years...  Her 25(OH)D serum concentration has remained steady around 100 ng/mL. 

She doesn't have cluster headaches, but she was a chronic migraineur for over 20 years...  She hasn't had a migraine since starting this regimen.  She feels great, looks great, and has more energy than I've seen in many years...  She also kicked the heck out of 75 in December...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 24th, 2013 at 4:01pm
Hey Slacker,

Sorry I missed your post yesterday...  However, as I've responded to your PM on this topic I'll try to summarize my PM to you in this post so readers will understand what appears to be happening with you.

For starters, 25(OH)D serum concentrations as high as your's are not uncommon when using an aggressive vitamin D3 dosing schedule... and if you are using one of these dosing schedules, make sure you see your PCP or neurologist to have your 25(OH)D tested after 30 days.  You did this so good on you... 

It's also a good idea to have your total calcium and parathyroid hormone (PTH) serum concentrations tested at the same time.

A 25(OH)D serum concentration at 171.2 ng/mL is below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication and no where near the record... 

I've been tracking three chronic CH'ers who were using a similar aggressive vitamin D3 dosing schedule while under their physicians supervision...  All three tested above 200 ng/mL after roughly 45 days on this dosing schedule... one was at 250 ng/mL.

Fortunately, their physicians kept their cool and had them lower their vitamin D3 dose to 10,000 IU/day or stop the vitamin D3 for a week then restart it at 10,000 IU/day.  All three were below 100 ng/mL a month later.

Their physicians also had labs for total calcium and PTH done on these three...  Their results were all normal so there was no clinical indication of vitamin D3 toxicity as indicated by higher than normal total calcium levels.

We've also had a few CH'ers with 25(OH)D serum concentrations above 100 ng/mL who like you were still getting hit.  The good news is their livers are working just fine metabolizing vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D. 

It's the second phase of vitamin D3 metabolism where 25(OH)D is metabolized into 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3 that may need attention.  Calcitriol is the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3 that appears to be responsible for preventing cluster headache.

There are two paths 25(OH)D can take to be metabolized into 1,25(OH)2D3.  One path involves the kidneys.  The other path takes place outside the kidneys in nearly all types of body cells throughout the body.  This route is called the peripheral or autocrine path as it enables genetic expression.  This metabolic path also requires retinol (vitamin A) to complete the metabolism of 25(OH)D into calcitriol at the cellular level.

The kidneys require PTH in order to metabolize 25(OH)D into the active hormonal vitamin D3 metabolite calcitriol.  The calcitriol generated by the kidneys is responsible for pulling calcium from the gut and pushing it into the blood stream.

What appears to be happening in your case is vitamin D3 metabolism may be running into calcium homeostasis and the result is less calcitriol being produced. 

This condition will arise when total calcium serum concentrations rise towards the upper limit of the normal reference range.

Calcium levels near the upper limit of the normal reference range signal the parathyroids to slow or stop production of PTH.  This in turn slows metabolism of 25(OH)D into calcitriol so less calcium is absorbed from the gut and total calcium serum concentration drops.

The reverse of this process occurs when the total calcium serum concentration falls towards the lower limit of the normal reference range.  When this happens, the parathyroids increase output of PTH, more 25(OH)D is metabolized into cacitriol, more calcium is absorbed from the gut and as a result, total calcium serum concentrations rise...  This overall self-regulating process is called calcium homeostasis as it maintains total calcium serum concentrations in a narrow range.

The net result is calcium homeostasis may be preventing the kidneys from producing sufficient calcitriol to prevent our cluster headaches even though 25(OH)D levels are in the green zone or above.

Data collected so far indicate there are two things we can do to increase calcitriol levels...  The first is to cut the intake of calcium supplements so less calcium is absorbed from the gut.  The second is to start taking vitamin A to increase the peripheral production of calcitriol.  I take a Centrum Silver tablet to get nearly all of my vitamin D3 cofactors including vitamin A.  There are other similar formulations like the Safeway brand, Senior 50 + formula.

I realize all this can be confusing but our bodies work in strange and wonderful ways when given the opportunity.  Please feel free to ask questions if you have them and I'll do my best to answer them.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 24th, 2013 at 4:32pm
Thanks Batch.  Should I take the Centrum Silver and Magnesium 400 mg at the same time with a glass of lemonade 30 minutes before dinner or do I take it all at the same time with the D3 and Fish Oil?  Also, in the PM you said I should up my Zinc to 25 mg.  Does that include the 15 mg of Zinc in the Centrum Silver or should I take 25 mg of Zinc on top of that? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 24th, 2013 at 5:32pm
Hey Slacker,

I take all the supplements at one time usually with the biggest meal of the day.  I do this for a couple reasons.  The first is vitamin D3 absorption increases with meals containing higher levels of fat.

The second reason is simple... it's easier for me to take this regimen all at once... I've tried breaking it up, but that resulted in missed doses when I got busy and forgot to take the rest of the daily dose.

Regarding zinc intake... The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for adults is a zinc intake of 12 mg/day and the Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for adults is 40 mg/day of zinc.

12 mg/day zinc will prevent a zinc insufficiency...  Keeping the intake at or below 40 mg/day will prevent other problems.

Accordingly, I try to make sure my total supplemental zinc intake is no more than 25 mg/day...

When I eat oysters, I cut the zinc for a day or two...  6 medium sized oysters contain over 76 mg of zinc.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 24th, 2013 at 6:07pm
Gotcha.  One last question that I forgot to ask.  Is it ok for me to still take the baking soda tonic 4 times a day?  Before I started taking them, I was having trouble aborting my attacks with O2 and my cycle was at peak intensity.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 24th, 2013 at 7:25pm
I just went to the store to buy the Centrum Silver and Zinc supplement.  For some reason, they only had Zinc in 15 or 50 mg.  I got the 15 mg so with the other 15 mg of Zinc in Centrum Silver, I'll be taking 30 mg of Zinc per day.  That's under the 40 mg threshold that you mentioned so I'm guessing it should be ok.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 24th, 2013 at 9:12pm
Slacker,

Thanks for the update.  I think you'll find the vitamin A in Centrum Silver will make a welcome difference in your cluster headache symptoms...

The baking soda tonic serves two purposes...  If it works to help lessen cluster headache symptoms, it's a simple indication you've likely got a low arterial/systemic pH.

The other purpose is to provide a temporary relief from the more painful aspects of our disorder.

In either case, finding a longer more sustainable solution to a low pH condition would be wise.  A simple change in diet like switching to the GOMBS or an alkalizing diet will be a better and longer lasting solution.  There are several web sites on both diets.

Regarding zinc...  Once you reach the RDA, a little more goes a long way.  30 mg/day is likely fine...  Splitting the 15 mg zinc tablet with a pill cutter or taking one 15 mg zinc tablet every other day on top of the zinc contained in a Centrum Silver tablet may be a more conservative approach.

Take care and please keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 25th, 2013 at 12:02am
Batch,

Got it.  I'll stick with the baking soda tonic for at least a few more days but I'll look into modifying my overall diet.  Thanks again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by his wife on Jan 25th, 2013 at 2:28pm
Hey Gang!   I haven’t been on the boards for quite a while (life you know), but had to post amazing results that my hubby has experienced over the past year.  To give some history, my husband has suffered from CH for over 21 years.  His cycles would start like clockwork late spring early summer and end most generally by October every year for 21 years.  There were 2 years where his cycle started in January.   He was on a regime of high dose Prednisone (hit it high, taper down…get knocked on your butt and start all over again), Verapamil (tapering up to 480 mg day), with melatonin for sleep and hitting the Imitrex and O2 (set at 15) hard every day.   He tried various suggestions here (energy drinks, high flow O2…etc), with little relief.   The Prednisone was SO hard on his body and he still suffers from of the long-term effects of long-term, high dosage use.   This went on for years and he was able to make it through each cycle year after year.  It was awful, as you all know, to watch him suffer with this relentless condition, day after day.   Well last year he started in cycle again in January.  We went to old “go to” regime…but something had to change.    We couldn’t get into his specialist for 3 months.

After reading Batch’s theory, I got in contact with him.   The results were amazing.   We started his regime in March initially 10,000 IU D3, Calcium Citrate 1,000 mg, fish oil 2,400 mg with a multi-vitamin containing zinc and magnesium, and he stayed on his Verapamil.   Mind you my hubby was getting hit HARD several times a day, sleep was non-existent, he lived for his O2 and burned through his stockpile of Imitrex.  Within WEEKS of starting this regime, he was improving.   Soon he wasn’t needing the Imitrex, and just using O2.  Shortly after that he didn’t need the O2.   By the time we went to see the Dr. he was painfree.   The Dr. ran a number of tests (EKG for heart, blood work to check D levels).   The Dr. was concerned with the level of D3 he was taking and suggested we reduce it.   He had never heard of this (and he is one of the best headache docs, practicing at a prestigious hospital).

So here we are nearly one year later and hubby is still pain free, didn’t go into cycle last summer, and feels great.  He is on a maintenance regime of Calcium Citrate w/ D3 (630 mg calcium, 500 IU D3),  5,000 IU D3 (total D3 = 5,500), 2,400 mg fish oil, and 240 mg Verapamil (I asked doc if ok to continue Verap year round for maintenance/prevention and he gave ok).    He hasn’t had so much as a shadow.

So Batch….you’re my hero!   Thank you for your guidance and support.  You have truly changed our lives since almost half of each year was not truly living for us.   I waited to post to make sure this was the real deal for us.  I’m posting today to thank you from the bottom of my heart and give others hope.    A number of years ago, my beautiful, strong hubby was suicidal, he suffered more than a human being should be allowed to suffer (and know thousands of others continue to).   But there is hope…don’t give up the fight…try this.  I pray you get the results we did.   Love ya Batch!  (Sorry this is so long!) 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Jan 25th, 2013 at 2:42pm
Awesome.   :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 25th, 2013 at 5:02pm
His Wife/Pickles...

Thanks for the wonderful update and the very kind words...  However, as I recall, you were the prime mover who took the bull by the horns and started your husband on this regimen...  You were also responsible for getting your husband started on high flow oxygen therapy...

Without supporters like you who look at our problem objectively, then take effective and sustained action... too many of us CH'ers would be down and out...   Good on you.

As a side note, I find it fascinating that neurologists and headache specialists experienced in treating patients with cluster headache are quick to say they know nothing about treating this disorder with vitamin D3 therapy... yet they swoon and go into fibrillation at the doses we take and tell us to cut back...

As you can see in the chart below, a maintenance dose of 5500 IU/day vitamin D3 can work... but it doesn't leave much wiggle room in the average 25(OH)D response:

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A 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 maintenance dose provides a better safety reserve margin of 25(OH)D...  not to mention better protection against colds and flu.

The bottom line... It's the 25(OH)D serum concentration that counts...  not the vitamin D3 dose.  A target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 85 ng/mL is safe and effective.  Just get tested and take whatever dose of vitamin D3 that results in a stable 25(OH)D serum concentration of 85 ng/mL.

My wife runs on vitamin D3 like it's jet fuel...  She burns 15,000 IU/day and loves it.  She's got more energy than I've seen in many years.

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If she didn't slow down occasionally...  I'd never catch her...  She also kicked the heck out of 75 a month a go...  Go figure...

Take care and thanks again for the wonderful post.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sixpack on Jan 25th, 2013 at 9:16pm
Not that I don't like you folks, but I thought all of this business was over with.  :)  Well, I was wrong and I am back again. All kinds of stuff has happened since I was last hear. Moved to the Dallas area and back in school using my GI Bill benefits, which leaves me with limited care from the VA. They don't carry my injections, so they gave me the sumatriptan pills that we all know don't work. They also got me the prednisone taper and verapamil. I'm working on getting the O2 going again, as it worked during my last cycle. Additionally, I am giving this regimen a go. So, I just wanted to drop a line in here and let folks know that I am on day 4 of taking these vitamins and I'm encouraged by looking through other folks' successes. I will most assuredly let everyone know how it goes. Thanks for the good work, Batch. Also, thanks to the rest of you for sharing your experience with this treatment. PF wishes to you all!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Jan 26th, 2013 at 7:03am

enli wrote on Jan 19th, 2013 at 9:24am:
64 male, 22yr CH fighter, 15yrs w/6 different neurologist, name it I have tried it (except this regime and ClusterBuster regime).
Episodic for 15yrs (CH Oct-Apr, PF other months), then chronic for 3yrs, finally got neuro to let me try lithium and was pain free for almost two years.  Now "They're back!!!" and yes they started in Oct 2012

Current meds:  Lithium 300mg twice/day, Verapamil 240mg twice/day

"Normal" day:  Light ghost comes and goes most of the day, if I try to nap usually will wake after an hour with K3-4 ache (O2 for 10min will abort), to sleep I go--1 to 2 hrs later will wake with ache and can be K2 to K7, if low just O2 and back to sleep if high will take half Relpax then O2.  Once or twice a month have K20!! (ha-ha) and keep trex shots available for these special occasions.  4 hours after shot will take whole Relpax, CH will rebound from trex without Relpax.

Company closed last April (after 12 years with them), lost job and insurance, had stockpiled Relpax and Imitrex, other meds and O2 cost about $200/month.  Money is an issue and results sound promising for this regime.

Found this thread last night and am own my way to Walmart for D&OIL, will keep posting as to results.  Assuming this starts to work, should I taper off the Lithium and Verapamil at same time or Lithium first and then Verapamil?

Always ask the prettiest girls to dance, all they can say is 'No!"


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Jan 26th, 2013 at 7:52am
Oops! I think I just posted my original message by mistake.  Sorry about that!!

Week One:
Ghost headaches have just about disappeared.  Took first dose last Saturday and did not have CH (K3) until Wed afternoon during nap time. Ha! Thursday night K3 and K5 (O2 & half Relpax) and Friday (K6) while watching TV in bed (O2 & half Relpax).

Other observations:
If dose taken AFTER meal, burp fish oil for hours.  If taken BEFORE meal this is not a problem.  Energy level a bit higher, but am only sleeping 4 to 6 hours a night, (6 to 8 hours is my norm).  Could this be a side effect from regimen???

Wow factor way up for 4 days, diminished some what for last 3 days, but 4 CH's compared to 12 CH's a week is vast improvement in my book.  Will continue current dosage for 3 more weeks and post results

Am confused as to how to post updates that will stay with original post? Is this done automatically or do I need to post these in a special way?

Tomato seeds need to be started soon for next spring!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jan 26th, 2013 at 9:17am
I have the same "burp up fish oil" and even mild nausea if I take this on an empty stomach. Taken with dinner, my biggest meal of the day, seems to eliminate all that unpleasant stuff.

If you open this thread, and then click reply, it will automatically post as the next item in this thread.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Jan 26th, 2013 at 11:18am
This brand that I found doesn't result in Fish Burps.  haha

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Jan 27th, 2013 at 8:50am
Hi guys

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE have omega3 oil that never burps and never leaves an after taste.  The 1000mg capsules are great! They might be a little more expensive than some from Walmart, but they are really great quality.

Cheers

Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Jan 28th, 2013 at 8:18pm
What is the average time people have noticed it takes for this regimen to take effect? 8 days into it and still having regular clusters :-X
(I began doing the alka seltzer yesterday. My D3 level after 2 days initial was 64.8. Had 2nd loading dose of D3 last eve)
THanks everyone for all the support!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Jan 28th, 2013 at 8:20pm
FISH OIL that tastes great! BARLEENS Lemon Zest or Mango Peach liquid. Delicious to add in a smoothy , also. COSTCO carries the Lemon Zest in a 65 serving bottle for about 21.00 ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jan 28th, 2013 at 9:28pm

9thNerve wrote on Jan 28th, 2013 at 8:18pm:
What is the average time people have noticed it takes for this regimen to take effect? 8 days into it and still having regular clusters :-X
(I began doing the alka seltzer yesterday. My D3 level after 2 days initial was 64.8. Had 2nd loading dose of D3 last eve)
THanks everyone for all the support!

64.8 what? What's the unit of measure? If it's nmol/L, you're not even close to the therapeutic range yet. If it's ng/mL, you're just starting to break into the therapeutic range.

It took me 2 months to get there. Most of that time I was taking 20,000 iu/day with a 50,000 iu loading dose once per week.

WAY too soon to give up on it.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Jan 28th, 2013 at 9:40pm
64.8ng   
I upped the daily dose to 20,000iu with the 50,000iu loading. I had actually been on vit D 10,000iu daily for many months so thats why I upped to 20,000iu to get in to the 80-100ng range.
Oh, I hope this works...
Day 21 with  continuous headaches and now I am afraid to use anymore abortive IMITREX for fear of rebound HA.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 29th, 2013 at 10:58am
In case there were any doubts about the other benefits of taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3...  Moreover, why taking it with the largest and highest fat content meal of the day is important...

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Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Jan 29th, 2013 at 12:48pm
What about re-bound from the meds? What do you all notice? How much is too much rescue med?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Jan 29th, 2013 at 4:59pm
Hi guys,
just signing in with a brief update, after 4 weeks on 20,0000 iu of D3 and no good results I upped it to 30,000 and 4 days later - NO CH  :D so I then reduced it back to 20,000 and within 2 days the beast bounced back.
I am back on 30,000 now and PF, seeing a different dr on friday hopefully to book blood test. Will put test results up ASAP.
x x

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Jan 29th, 2013 at 9:31pm
How often were /are your cycles of good days/bad?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 29th, 2013 at 10:19pm
Oxyrunner,

Thanks for the very interesting update.  I've seen this phenomenon reported before.

I can't prove it just yet, but it appears there are two factors involved... You'll need to see your PCP or neurologist to get lab tests for 25(OH)D, total calcium and PTH to have a better idea what's happening.

The first factor is your capacity to metabolize vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D then on to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol) the active hormonal form of vitamin D3, may be a little low...

In other words, you may not building 25(OH)D reserves fast enough to prevent your cluster headaches or the next phase of metabolism to calcitriol is low for some other reason.

The second factor is you may be consuming calcitriol a lot faster than normal... This can be due to a number of other factors including a subclinical (undetected) viral infection or some kind of allergic reaction. 

Either condition will consume calcitriol, which has a half life of 4 to 6 hours, to the point your 25(OH)D reserves are being consumed faster than normal so the 25(OH)D serum concentration drops... 

Again, a set of lab tests can help confirm this one way or the other.

The good news is the intake of 30,000 IU/day vitamin D3 or a "brut force" dosing schedule is working.

A couple things you can try is take the vitamin D3, Omega 3 fish oil and cofactors with the largest meal of the day or the meal containing the most fat.  Vitamin D3 is lipophilic (loves fat), so doing this will improve vitamin D3 absorption.

The second thing to try is to stop taking the calcium for a few weeks, up the magnesium daily intake to 400 mg/day, zinc to 25 mg/day and vitamin A to 3000 IU/day.

I take Centrum Silver to get the basic dose of the vitamin D3 cofactors including vitamin A then add a 400 mg softgel of magnesium and a 10 mg tablet of zinc.

The only word of caution is watch the magnesium...  400 mg/day should be fine... More than that can be problematic... You'll know when you take too much magnesium... you'll get loose as a goose.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Judge_Smails on Jan 30th, 2013 at 4:02pm
Just got my first 25(OH)D results back - 149ng/mL

I was expecting a cycle to start around May of 2012, so in April I started on the regiment and my cycle never came.  I started taking 10K IU D3, 1200mg flaxseed oil (vegetarian alternative to fish oil), 500mg Magnesium, 500mg MSM/Glucosamine, plus a B compound vitamin.  Since then I experience some occasional shadows which I knocked out with energy drinks.  I did take 24K IU D3 once a week when the shadows started.  I haven't had any shadows in the past 2 months and have eliminated the once a week loading of D3.  Considering that my ng/mL level is good, I may drop down to 8K IU daily.

So far so good!

Thanks Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 31st, 2013 at 7:13am
Hey Judge Smalls,

Thanks for the detailed update.  It appears you've got an excellent handle on controlling your cluster headaches. 

My only comment is a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 149 ng/mL is very acceptable as long as it's relatively stable.  No real need to change it.

Ask to have your total calcium and PTH serum concentrations measured when you have your next set of labs done. 

The results of these lab tests will provide you and your neurologist a good baseline relative to your 25(OH)D serum concentration and daily vitamin D3 intake.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Jan 31st, 2013 at 4:52pm
A better day today  :)  "1 2 3 may be working..."

I wanted to share a couple Omega3 's that I found to be quite palatable.

Barleans Omega Swirl liquid suspension in  several nummy flavors : 2 tsp =729 mg EPA/DHA
(Available at COSTCO 65 servings for $21)

ADVOCARE OmegaPlex  2caps = 1gram DHA/EPA!
(available through an Advocare distributor for 21.95/45 servings. I can help you order this if anyone is interested).
http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Advocare_OmegaPlex.pdf (109 KB | 1 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Judge_Smails on Jan 31st, 2013 at 6:17pm
Thanks Batch!  One thing to note - I was shocked that on the bloodwork report from the lab they list "normal" levels of D3 as 30-150ng/mL.  So maybe doctors are finally starting to update their definitions of toxicity when it comes to D3!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 1st, 2013 at 1:04am
As Sammy Davis Jr. used to say on Laugh-In...  "Here come da Judge..."

With the good stuff and good reason too... You're very correct.  There's a growing level of awareness among medical professionals who really understand vitamin D3 metabolism, that the "normal" reference range for 25(OH)D was derived as a gaussian distribution or "bell shaped" curve of lab test results collected from a population of people who are largely vitamin D3 deficient... 

That means the "normal" reference range used for many years as a standard, is actually shifted to the left at a concentration range much lower than the actual biologically and physiologically "normal" mean...

I have lab data on nearly a dozen CH'ers who tested between 200 and 259 ng/mL.  Their total calcium serum concentrations were all "normal" with no other indications or symptoms of vitamin D3 intoxication... 

Take care and thanks for the lab data...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Feb 3rd, 2013 at 10:05am
Hi,
 
I am on this regimen for about 18 month.

For you that don’t know me -
I suffer from one of the extreme sorts of CH, and was diagnosed as intractable CCH
(Chronic Cluster Headache). 

Without medication I averaged (AM = Arithmetical maiden) up to 8 episodes a day at an average high (AM) pain level of kip 8.
A CH episode lasts 45 to 50 min; without abortive treatment, an episode is accompanied with
all the classic CH symptoms.

I have undergone treatment with almost all the schoolbook standards of care preventative / abortive medications for CH, and was a guinea pig to some new and innovative treatments.
   
None of the treatments provided sustainable positive results, or gave me a full (even limited) success in preventing my CH…
 
The only treatment I have NOT tried is the CB alternative.
I do think it could provide me with some relief; it is not compatible to my job requirements.
 
All treatments (I have undergone) had one or more undesirable side effects that made the risk-reward ratio unfavorable so the choice to continue or discontinue the treatment was made very easy.
 
The anti-inflammatory treatment (AIT) for me is not a magic bullet - BUT


Being under very tight control and monitoring by doctors in the endocrinology department at KSSG (Kantonspital St. Gallen Switzerland).
The AIT has allowed me to achieve a steady 85% reduction in the frequency of my CH episodes.  It has also resulted in a significant (over 50%) reduction in the pain level of the remaining episodes… hardly ever going over Kip 5 anymore.

I achieve all of the above without any immediate apparent undesirable side effects. On the contrary, my bone density (monitored as well) is improving and my current overall sense of well-being is very good.

Next to working full time, and much more, I am Paragliding with my older son (age 15),
and it is so much fun….. nature from above in a slow motion….. the Swiss (Canton Appenzel) landscape is just simply joule,  A bijou!!

I do have to compromise and take a lower dose (D3), due to some possible undiseiereble side effects in interaction with the bone density Medication (Bon Viva ;Ibandronic acid (INN) or ibandronate sodium; USAN).


To all who haven't tried the AIT treatment and would like to give it a chance, it can take time to achieve significant results.  For me it took over 4 months and a lot of discipline before I responded. 


However, the flexibility of dosing the “ingredients” to achieve the current results, and knowing there is room for better results makes the continuous disciplined work of adjusting my AIT to the situation and the lab tests every three months well worth the effort.
 
The AIT is (in conjunction with high flow that is 25 – 40 Lt. / Min of O2 abortive) a Substantial weapon with significant results (over 80%),
That is more than (statistically) with the standards of care meds and treatments,
without any (seemingly) adverse side effects, or any unwelcome legal issues.
 
The cost of this regimen is negligible in comparison to any of the current standard of care meds. It is affordable to (almost) any person, My cost is just under 50 cents (US $) a day (and I buy the supplements over the internet and it is flown from the USA to Switzerland via DHL).

The AIT gives me a confident level of control in preventing my CH and the few that do leak through are easily controlled with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation. 

Bottom line: I enjoy a quality of life that lets me function effectively at work,
at home with my family, while doing things I enjoy.



Michael

201302

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by pattik on Feb 3rd, 2013 at 10:32am

wildhaus wrote on Feb 3rd, 2013 at 10:05am:
Hi,
 
Bottom line: I enjoy a quality of life that lets me function effectively at work,
at home with my family, while doing things I enjoy.



Michael

201302


Michael~
It's truly wonderful to read about your response to this treatment.  Those of us who have been around  this message board for a long time are familiar with your long road of trying different treatments. Your story offers much hope, and I hope you continue to fine-tune this regimen for optimal results for your situation. You are a great example to others of taking responsibility for your treatments and staying the course.
~Pat

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Feb 3rd, 2013 at 9:08pm
This is when I wish we had "LIKE" buttons to click on ! :)

I won't give up...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by zillygoat on Feb 4th, 2013 at 3:05pm
Hope this is the appropriate place to post progress and questions.

Been chronic for 13 years. My log ( I use a Headache app) states 68 hits 5 or above since Jan 1. / I dont count the shadows (nearly every AM when waking) / I  use several prescribed preventatives & abortive's.  O2 has become virtually worthless even at 25 LPM with a custom rig and hyperventilation, taking up to 30 minutes and blasting through bottles and has become cost prohibitive, possibly due to the preventives, I dont know. I hope that I can get off all this crap or at least get to where O2 works again.

My most current Neurologist is sending me to a neurosurgeon for consultation for the ONSI.

I went to my GP and had my levels 25(OH)D level is 16 and after reading the average persons levels I gained hope.

I started the regimen 3 days ago using the best I could find at Sams Club, (my pharmacy) No Costco or similar.

X2 Fish Oil w/ D3 = F.0.-24K mg / D3-4K IU

X3 CCP w/ D3 & K = Calcium-12K / K-120mcg / D3 1.5K IU

X1 Mega Vit = Boron-2mg / 25mg-Zinc / 1.6K IU D3 / 100mg Magnesium Oxide / 2mg Magnesium Sulphate

X1 Magnesium Oxide = 500mg  (Gluconate on order)

X? Vitaman D3   2000 IU

-------------------------------------------------

Currently Ive started at about 1/3 dose and plan on staying at that level for a week, but am a little confused about these loading doses.

I plan on following the 2 week plan to tritate up to 10,000 IU daily.

I have already noticed changes in my headache pattern, not necessarily positive but different.

I take these in the AM with Chocolate Protein shake and OJ & breakfast as it is the most consistent meal that is often the largest and am going to continue to take Verapamil (night) as it controls my BP so well.

That 190,000 IU D3 number sounds a bit scary, but Im for trying this thing, all in.

Thanks Charlie, your advice 10 years ago with O2 gave me many years of help. I hope this is the answer for the rest of my years....




IMG-20130202-00074.jpg (176 KB | 1 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 4th, 2013 at 4:42pm
Why would you feel the need to titrate up with vitamin D3?

(My personal advice to you is just start taking it - and with a serum level of 16 - ng/mL, I assume - you'd be in for months of hurt if you don't get your levels up)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 4th, 2013 at 5:17pm
Hey Zillygoat,

Thanks for the headzup you're starting the anti-inflammatory regimen... 

A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 16 ng/mL is clearly deficient... I'm surprised you're not having other health problems...

I think you're a bit conservative with your vitamin D3 dosing schedule...  but that's ok...  Your plan will work... it will just take longer than necessary... like a month to 45 days given your starting 25(OH)D serum concentration.

Taking vitamin D3 at doses of 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day and higher is very safe

I say this because vitamin D3 is the only free vitamin... actually a pre-hormone.  Your skin can make 15,000 IU vitamin D3 in as little as 15 minutes if exposed to the UVB in summer sunlight... between 10am and 2pm... and you're clad in a bathing suit without any sunblock. 

Let me guess... you don't do that do you?  Neither do I...

You need to get your 25(OH)D up to a target serum concentration of 85 ng/mL as shown in the chart below.

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The only question now is how long do you want to wait while building your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite up to 85 ng/mL?

The two fastest and safest ways to do this reported by CH'ers, are a vitamin D3 dosing schedule of 20,000 IU/day plus an additional 50,000 IU loading dose once a week for a month then get your 25(OH)D tested.  The other dosing schedule is 50,000 IU/day for two weeks then 20,000 IU/day for another two weeks then get tested.

Once you reach your target concentration of 25(OH)D you can drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day as shown in the chart above.

Both of these dosing schedules should elevate your 25(OH)D into the green zone with a favorable CH response as fast as possible.

Talk to you GP about this.

In regards to ONSI...  Given the present level of efficacy of this invasive surgical procedure...  50% at best... I would consider it as the very last thing to try and option of last resort...  only after all other methods of controlling your CH have failed... 

You're not there yet...

ONSI is expensive even with insurance... it takes months to recover from the implantation process and longer after that to develop a set of stimulation patters.

The biggest weakness of ONSI is it will not work when sleeping because you need to be awake to sense an approaching cluster headache then select one of the preset stimulation patterns.

If you're sleeping when the cluster headache hits... by the time you wake up and reach for the ONSI remote controller... (looks like a small TV remote) the cluster headache pain will likely have climbed beyond what the ONSI is capable of aborting...

Michael is a disciplined engineer...  He indicated he achieved a maximum of 85% effectiveness with his ONSI while awake but still needed imitrex and oxygen therapy...

For a complete first-hand account of his ONSI experience complete with photos from the surgery, read the following link posted by Wildhaus...  Read all 4 pages...

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That was in 2008...  Michael had the entire ONSI implant surgically removed last year...  It failed to provide an acceptable level of control over his cluster headaches. 

He now uses the anti-inflammatory regimen and claims an 80% reduction in the frequency of is cluster headaches.

Take care and please keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Feb 4th, 2013 at 6:49pm
Hello All
Some bad news from my side, after over 150 days of care free PFness things changed. I moved from Christchurch to Auckland at the beginning of the year and whatever it is that makes the cities different lit a fire under my beasts backside, dumped right into the middle of a full blown cycle and one unlike I've ever experienced. My hits were always fairly predictable, late evening or an hour after sleep, lasted pretty much half an Hour. Now its all over the place, any time of the day, last anything from 10 minutes to 2 hours, Kip 2 to Kip 8, 2 or 3 a day, horrible. I'm keeping up with the D3 and really hope they come under control soon.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by zillygoat on Feb 4th, 2013 at 7:19pm
Excellent.  Im not sure what other health problems but I do have a few... I just wanted to check in and address a few questions.  I will bump it up and start the loading doses next week after I get to the 10,000 IU. I think I just needed a little reassurance to start bumping it up. I have some time this eve to read this thread.

I have NO intention of going through with the ONSI if I can get results with this and the fact that a good portion of my worst hits are at night make it pretty worthless with the other things you mentioned. I still have the consult but I trust your advice & the Neurosurgeon may well tell me the same things you did.



Thanks SO much for the great info and I will report back.  I plan on getting my levels checked again in 6 weeks and my GP is very onboard with this after my test results & the info you provided, although my Neurologist doesnt seem to interested.







But I a

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 5th, 2013 at 2:25am
Zillygoat,

You're on the right track and you've got a great understanding of what ONSI can do and what it can't.

Your GP sounds like a winner... Stick with him and keep him in the loop with your vitamin D3 regimen... 

Sorry I can't say the same for your neurologist...  His reaction to the anti-inflammatory regimen is unfortunately, all too common and not unexpected. 

That said, it's not his fault for a couple reasons... There's nothing in print about the capacity of vitamin D3 to prevent cluster headaches...  The closest thing is an RCT looking at vitamin D3 as a migraine preventative... 

The second thing is big pharma is a major influence on how neurologists treats their patients...  They fund all the major studies on abortives and preventatives...  Accordingly, no neurologist is going to whiz in big pharma's flintlock over a 20 cent a day regimen that's more effective, safer and has less side effects in treating our disorder than the $100 a pop injection big pharma offers...

Big pharma has the technology and funding to bring new medications to market as fast as possible...  We need that capability and capacity...  Big Government... is often the real problem that jacks the cost of bringing new pharmaceuticals to market... all in the name of protecting the public... but that's another story...

Wayne,  Thanks for the update...  If anything, the move from Christchurch to Aukland should have worked in your favor due to the slightly higher latitude...

What I suspect is happening is something is affecting the way your body is metabolizing vitamin D3... That's assuming you've not changed your dose of vitamin D3 or changed brands of vitamin D3.

New bugs and virus can cause your immune system to consume the active metabolite of vitamin D3, 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), at higher rates...  That means there might be insufficient calcitriol to prevent your cluster headaches.

The other possibility is there's been a change in you diet that's resulting in a much lower systemic/arterial pH...  too much acid.

The first step is to see the next available PCP and have your 26(OH)D serum concentration tested...  If this test comes back at a concentration less than 60 ng/mL (150 nmol/L), you need to increase your daily intake of vitamin D3.

If you're not taking vitamin A at RDA... Start doing that as well.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 5th, 2013 at 5:30pm
Batch, thanks for everything you have done. I've been a sufferer for more years than I care to admit. Anyways, I have an appt. with my PCP tomorrow and prior to the appt. I sent him the information you compiled regarding the anti-inflammatory regimen. He had no trouble having my 25(OH)D levels checked to see where they fell. Anyway, I'll post back once I get the results of the test and what my PCP says.

Thanks again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 5th, 2013 at 5:53pm
Hey Cyclist,

Thanks for the kind words.  I like your plan of action and your PCP's willingness to test your 25(OH)D serum concentration.

As I've said many times...  after a proper diagnosis of cluster headache from a neurologist to rule out other potentially more serious conditions, most CH'ers are better served seeing their PCP, a homeopath or an endocrinologist to have the vitamin D3 deficiency treated, that nearly all CH'ers suffer. 

Obviously, this course of action isn't needed if the attending neurologist buys into the high probability that a low 25(OH)D serum concentration contributes to our disorder...

Looking forward to your lab results... and how your PCP wants to proceed should they come back lower than 60 ng/mL.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by kev on Feb 6th, 2013 at 6:53pm
Well I had my D3 rechecked again after following the regimen and it came back high 159 ng/ml.  Unfortunately my clusters haven't responded to the regimen.  Any other suggestions?  I think I will try psilocybin dosing again and see if that helps.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Feb 6th, 2013 at 8:39pm
2 1/2 weeks in and CH's are now about normal 1 or 2 per day/night except 1 night pain was worse I've had since CH's restarted last October, O2 did not work, Relpaz did not work, I waited (very impatiently) 2 hours and took imitrex injection.  That curbed the beast, but head sure was sore the next day.  Am going to up D3 to 20,000 starting this Saturday and see if that will make any difference. Shadow aches are just about none existent, so that's nice.

Was getting a little down, great start and now back to normal CH pattern, but after reading above messages I can see where this could take a while to get good results.  Thanks for the posts and realize what a positive direction they are pointing for the new kids on the block (64 year old KID)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 6th, 2013 at 10:22pm
Hey Kev,

Thanks for the update.  Yes your 25(OH)D is a little high... and even though you're still getting hit, don't worry just yet. We've seen this condition reported before and your 25(OH)D serum concentration is nowhere near the record for this regimen.

The good news is your liver is working just  fine metabolizing vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D. 

Although your 25(OH)D is a little high, it's still well below the lowest threshold listed for vitamin D3 intoxication with elevated total calcium serum concentrations so no big thing...  You can bring it down easily by cutting your present vitamin D3 dose in half for a month then retest.

What you need to do now is "tune" the regimen.  Start by cutting out the calcium supplements for a few weeks.  If you're taking the calcium citrate tablets with most of the vitamin D3 cofactors, stop taking them and instead, start taking some Centrum Silver or the Safeway brand, Century Senior 50+ Formula.  These two formulations contain all the vitamin D3 cofactors plus vitamin K and vitamin A.

The vitamin A is essential for the metabolism of 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3, calcitriol, the active hormonal vitamin D3 metabolite, at the cellular level throughout the body. 

This is called the peripheral or autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism we think is responsible for the CH preventative effect of vitamin D3.

Stopping the intake of supplemental calcium will help increase the rate of metabolilsm of 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3, calcitriol in the kidneys.

As  far as busting goes... If you feel it's necessary, go ahead.  We've seen no problems mixing busting with the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2013 at 1:09am
Enli,

Thanks for the update and hang in there.  I thought you were in like Flint after the first week...  so at this point I think it's just a matter of time to build your 25(OH)D serum concentration up to a therapeutic level.

Bumping the vitamin D3 up to 20,000 IU/day will help, I'd also add the 50,000 IU loading dose once a week.

Skip the calcium citrate tablets for a couple weeks and make up for the vitamin D3 cofactors with a tablet a day of Centrum Silver or the Safeway's Century Senior 50+ Formula.  Either of these two multi-vitamin and mineral supplements have all the vitamin D3 cofactors plus vitamin K and vitamin A. 

You also need to make an appointment with your PCP in a couple weeks for the 25(OH)D lab test.  Hopefully by then you'll have a much better response.

At 68, I'm still a kid too... at least that's what my wife says the way I act at times.  I figure I'll grow up someday.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Feb 7th, 2013 at 10:24am
110 days CH free!!! Thanks again Pete!! :) ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Blakeandcat on Feb 7th, 2013 at 2:49pm
100 days painfree on D3 (and still going strong).  I’m an episodic sufferer for 10 years with 3-4 month bouts every two years.  (Side note: I was diagnosed with low D3 about 5 years ago and never thought much about it.) Last cycle lasted a full year until I started D3. I used the picture Batch posted and went to Costco to grab the bottles.  Just got a blood test and D3 was “unmeasurable.” Results were  >96 ng/mL.  Was taking  10k IU/day.  My PCP told me to stop D3 for 3 months and get a new test.  I would prefer to take some D3.  Any advice?  Thanks. 

Since this is my first post, let me just say to everyone out there searching for help, I know how you feel.  I was at my lowest point and didn’t know what to do.  I had five different neurologists with five different contradicting plans.  I also tried acupuncture and chiropractic.  I lost hope until I started reading Batch and the others.  The skeptic in me still wonders if the high positive response could be due in part to starting D3 at the end of the cluster cycle.  But the plan has done more than stop the headaches.  It gives me a youthful energy I haven’t known for years.  To anyone suffering like I did, please try the D3 plan.  You’ve got nothing to lose and everything to gain.  I want to offer my sincere thanks to everyone on this forum.  I felt like you all never gave up on me, so I never gave up on myself.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Feb 7th, 2013 at 3:03pm

Clusterman59 wrote on Feb 7th, 2013 at 10:24am:
110 days CH free!!! Thanks again Pete!! :) ;)


Over a year CH free for me and only 10 CHs in total since starting on the vitamin D3 about 2 years ago.

Is it any wonder we tell people who come to the forums about Pete's wonderful approach using D3?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2013 at 4:11pm
Clusterman, Blakeandcat, Mike,

Thanks for the wonderful posts and kind words.  They do more to alert our fellow CH'ers, wondering what to do next, to the benefits of the anti-inflammatory regimen than anything I could say.

Blackeandcat, vitamin D3 testing, 25(OH)D lab results, and effective therapies to treat vitamin D3 deficiencies remain a mystery to too many physicians.  If your 25(OH)D serum concentration is stable at 96 ng/mL at a dose of 10,000 IU/day, I wouldn't change a thing. 

Instead, I'd suggest you print out the following link and take it to your PCP.

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It's not surprising that too many neurologists pain specialists and PCPs look at CH'ers asking for the 25(OH)D lab test like they were speaking in tongues... or pitch a hissy when they see a 25(OH)D serum concentration near 100 ng/mL.

The reasons for this reaction is simple.  Most physicians are not up to speed on the health benefits of vitamin D3, dosing or the optimum serum concentration of 25(OH)D needed to maintain good health. 

The causal relationship between a vitamin D3 deficiency and cluster headache has not been identified in medical literature to date and has only surfaced within cluster headache specific forums over the last two years.  We need to change that.

I've had an article ready to be sent to a number of medical journals on the safety and efficacy of the anti-inflammatory regimen as a cluster headache preventative, but I need a little more information from the online survey of CH'ers who have taken this regimen for at least a month.

I structured this survey with the essential questions that cover not only the safety and efficacy aspects of this regimen, but also the essential demographics and epidemiology associated with cluster headache.

To date we've had 96 responses to this survey.  Unfortunately, only 72 were fully completed.  I need a minimum of 100 completed surveys from CH'ers who have used this regimen.  That would provide the kind of numbers with statistical significance to attract the attention of neurologists, pain specialists and PCPs.   It would also hopefully attract corporate and medical organizations willing to fund an interventional study of vitamin D3 as a cluster headache preventative.

Studies like this take time and a lot of money...  It took over six years from the time Michael Berger and I started planning a study of oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation as an abortive for cluster headache until Dr. Rozen published the results of his pilot study of the demand valve method of oxygen therapy.

Accordingly, the updates you post on the results of this regimen play a significant role in attracting new CH'ers to this regimen.  We now need to urge CH'ers who have been on this regimen for at least a month to take the survey.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 8th, 2013 at 8:01am
I got my 25(OH)D results back this morning and it is at 29 ng/ml. My calcium serum level is at 9.8 mg/dl.  So, I'm definitely on the low end of the range.  I'd like to start the vitamin anti-inflammatory regimen asap so I'll be visiting Costco today.  The question I have is what would you suggest  my intake of the D3, Calcium and fish oil be?  I saw the 20k/day 50k/1x week as being suggested to get it up relatively quickly, so wondering if I should go that route and keep the calcium and fish oil at 500 and 2400 mg respectively?  Initially, prior to the test results, my PCP suggested I take 2000IU/day, but in light of the 29 I think that may not ramp up the D3 level quickly enough or maybe not increase it to where it needs to be to be in the green zone.
Thanks, Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 8th, 2013 at 8:13am
That's what I would do - except it seems you have the calcium and fish oil numbers reversed. Should be 2,000mg fish oil, 500 calcium.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 8th, 2013 at 8:19am
Thanks Brew, Yeah, I saw that I had those reversed and just edited my post.  It will be interesting to see what my doc says now. When I met with him the other day he did say if it was low that he would also suggest a loading dose 1x a week.
Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 8th, 2013 at 8:58am
It took me nearly 2 months of 20,000iu per day with a once-a-week loading dose of 50,000iu to get into the therapeutic range.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 8th, 2013 at 9:27am
I'm also wondering about the Vit A, K and Magnesium. I take multi-vitamin (One-A-Day Men's 50+ Advantage) that contains 2500IU of Vit. A, 20 mcg of K and 100mg of Magnesium. Do they suffice in meeting the needs of those supplements and should I continue with this along with the D3, Calcium and Fish Oil?
Thanks, Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 8th, 2013 at 10:03am
I believe Batch has stated that the RDA of vitamin A, vitamin K and Boron are a good level for this regimen (please correct me if I'm wrong), but you might want to boost your magnesium if you don't get results. Too much magnesium was giving me foot and leg cramps, so I am now down to what is contained in my multi-vitamin.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Feb 8th, 2013 at 11:35am

Brew wrote on Feb 8th, 2013 at 8:58am:
It took me nearly 2 months of 20,000iu per day with a once-a-week loading dose of 50,000iu to get into the therapeutic range.


When I spoke with my PCP about this regimen, he indicated he has struggled in the past to get people to 40ng/mL.  I told him that there were people doing 20,000 IU / day + 50,000 IU loading doses once a week and his response was "Wow! Really?"

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 8th, 2013 at 11:51am
After my results my PCP just came back today recommending I take 2000IU a day and retest in 4-5weeks. 
I still think I should go higher than that to get my D3 up there quicker.
Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Feb 8th, 2013 at 12:20pm
Hey Pete! I have a permanent post(thread) on the facebook site that instructs folks to take the survey and i hear it almost every day that these folks will be taking the survey so many just started the regimen and i see that you will get the 100 CHers that you need pretty soon so i'll keep promoting the survey info as much as i can....Best of luck for speedy results .....Johnny :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2013 at 7:38pm
Hey Cyclist,

I think you need a higher intake of vitamin D3 too. My theory why you need more vitamin D3 stems from your cycling... I'll explain below. 

Moreover, given what we've learned during the last two years about our response to the anti-inflammatory regimen, it's obvious to most of us that 2000 IU/day vitamin D3 is too low... even though your PCP doesn't. 

You need to understand that he is caught in an ethical bind between his own common sense based on years of clinical experience, and the 400 IU/day RDA or 4000 IU/day UL (Upper Tolerable Limit) for vitamin D3 put out by the four big government bureaucrats on the Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine.

You might want to consider this an opportunity to make your vitamin D3 therapy a "Ding-Dong School" teachable moment with your PCP. 

Show him the following chart and urge him to read the attached pdf file by Garland et al.  It's a very interesting meta-study on vitamin D3 metabolism that concludes: "Universal intake of up to 40,000 IU vitamin D per day is unlikely to result in vitamin D toxicity."

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My theory why you need a higher intake of vitamin D3 than 10,000 IU/day to control your cluster headache should be clear if you follow my logic.

That logic starts with the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3 (What the body does to process vitamin D3).  This occurs in the following sequence:

1.  Vitamin D3 absorption in the gut

2.  Liver metabolizes absorbed vitamin D3 into 25(OH)D

3.  Kidneys metabolize some of the serum level 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal form of vitamin D3, to support calcium homeostasis

4.  The remaining serum level 25(OH)D is metabolized extrarenal (outside the kidneys) at the cellular level throughout the body to 1,25(OH)2D3 to be consumed as needed, where needed and when needed, one time... and then it's catabolized (broken down) into an inactive metabolite and eliminated by the kidneys in urine.  This is called the peripheral or autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism.

Here's where things get really interesting...  It turns out there are a number of processes along the peripheral path of vitamin D3 metabolism that consume 1,25(OH)2D3.  One of the largest consumers of 1,25(OH)2D3 is the immune system. 

This is where the 1,25(OH)2D3 activates and clones the immune system's T-cells.  This process effectively turns the T-cells into an army of little pack-man cells that gobble up virus and bacterial antigens to fight off infection. 

Other T-cells are activated to remember the kind of antigen so if it invades your system again, they can react much faster... i.e., you get chickenpox only once and you become immune to further exposure to the virus that causes it.  In short, you've developed an immunity to chickenpox.

Not surprisingly, the two systems in the body with the highest immune response are the digestion and respiratory systems.  When you stop to think about it...  What two systems are exposed to the highest concentrations of foreign viral and bacterial antigens?  If you said the digestive and respiratory tracts... you win.

Assuming you're exposed to the same concentrations of antigens in food as the rest of us...  that leaves your respiratory tract as the discriminator.

As a cyclist averaging 100 miles a week, I estimate you spend roughly six to seven hours a week doing so.  As your minute volume of inspired air while cycling is likely upwards of 56 liters and where the minute volume of air inspired by the average CH'er at rest is 9 liters, during that 6.5 hours of cycling you inhale 22,500 liters of air where the average CH'er at rest inhales only 3,600 liters. 

That means you're inhaling six times the volume of air in that six hours of cycling as the average CH'er sitting at home or work.

You're also exposing your lungs to six times the volume of antigens such as airborne virus, bacteria, spores, pollen and other pollutants.

If you recall the lungs are a major consumer of 1,25(OH)2D3 and that this active metabolite of vitamin D3 is only used once then pumped over the side in urine, it's quite possible your immune system is easily consuming six times or more the amount of 1,25(OH)2D3 as the average CH'er.

When you consider that roughly only a thousandth of the vitamin D3 intake makes it to the periphery as 1,25(OH)2D3 and most of that is being consumed by the immune system.  This could easily account for your limited response to the ant-inflammatory regimen and low 25(OH)D serum concentration.

I hope all this makes sense and that it helps explain why you need a higher vitamin D3 intake than 10,000 IU/day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Garland_et_al-_Vitamin_D_Doses_and_Serum_25_OH_D.pdf (145 KB | 11 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 8th, 2013 at 8:20pm
Thanks Batch. That is extremely interesting, especially the piece on the effect of cycling and the immune system impact on the absorption of D-3.  So, would you suggest I start the regimen at 20,000IU of D3 and do a load of 50,000IU 1x per week and then have my level checked in 4 weeks?

Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2013 at 8:35pm
Mark,

That sounds like an excellent plan...  Go for it!

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 8th, 2013 at 9:14pm
Great. Thanks for the assistance and advice. I'll make sure I do the survey as well.
Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 10th, 2013 at 9:29pm
Quick question. Is it typical to have nausea after taking the vitamins? I'm taking 20K of D3, 500 Calcium Citrate, 2400 of Fish Oil and a multi-vitamin after dinner with some OJ or Lemonade and tonight I almost lost it all. Didn't have this level of nausea the first 2 nights.
Thanks, Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 10th, 2013 at 10:21pm
My personal belief is that it is either the calcium or the zinc that causes the nausea. I take both in the morning, and I get pretty squishy if I don't have something to eat. Doesn't happen with my evening split (vit D3, multi, and fish oil).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Feb 11th, 2013 at 7:04am
Thanks. I've been taking them all after eating dinner and last night was the first night that I was really nauseous.  It ended up passing within about 20min, but during that 20min period it was pretty unpleasant.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Feb 11th, 2013 at 11:17am
Hi,
I have received some blood test results today and think I have finally worked out why the regime was not working properly for me.
Calcium - 2.4mmmol/l
PTH - 30
Corrected calcium albumin - 39
Magnesium - 0.81
Still waiting for D3 and zinc results but I think my magnesuim levels are low ( considering I have been taking supplements for 10 weeks). I have had a quick look online and low magnesuim levels have been linked with CH.
Hopefully Batch can confirm or put me right on these levels.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Feb 11th, 2013 at 3:54pm

oxyrunner wrote on Feb 11th, 2013 at 11:17am:
Hi,
I have received some blood test results today and think I have finally worked out why the regime was not working properly for me.
Calcium - 2.4mmmol/l
PTH - 30
Corrected calcium albumin - 39
Magnesium - 0.81
Still waiting for D3 and zinc results but I think my magnesuim levels are low ( considering I have been taking supplements for 10 weeks). I have had a quick look online and low magnesuim levels have been linked with CH.
Hopefully Batch can confirm or put me right on these levels.


Hi

It can take up to a year to correct low magnesium levels. The magnesium pioneer Seelig recommend 0,6-1,0 mg magnesium per kg body weight per day.

Best Niels

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Feb 11th, 2013 at 4:10pm

Batch wrote on Feb 5th, 2013 at 2:25am:

Wayne,  Thanks for the update...  If anything, the move from Christchurch to Aukland should have worked in your favor due to the slightly higher latitude...

What I suspect is happening is something is affecting the way your body is metabolizing vitamin D3... That's assuming you've not changed your dose of vitamin D3 or changed brands of vitamin D3.

New bugs and virus can cause your immune system to consume the active metabolite of vitamin D3, 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), at higher rates...  That means there might be insufficient calcitriol to prevent your cluster headaches.

The other possibility is there's been a change in you diet that's resulting in a much lower systemic/arterial pH...  too much acid.

The first step is to see the next available PCP and have your 26(OH)D serum concentration tested...  If this test comes back at a concentration less than 60 ng/mL (150 nmol/L), you need to increase your daily intake of vitamin D3.

If you're not taking vitamin A at RDA... Start doing that as well.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Thanks for this Batch. I think it may be a month or so of hotel food, erratic sleeping and a severe temperature change that has set these off. Having said that I am doing everything right, eating very well, exercising, religiously following the D3 regime and have upped the D3 intake to 20k iu per day with a 50k loading dose. Have been for a check up and, other than the CH I am as healthy as a horse. Just weird that nothings working. How would I address a lower arterial PH?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Feb 11th, 2013 at 4:16pm

cyclist7531 wrote on Feb 11th, 2013 at 7:04am:
Thanks. I've been taking them all after eating dinner and last night was the first night that I was really nauseous.  It ended up passing within about 20min, but during that 20min period it was pretty unpleasant.

I experienced something similar when I started the regimen but it passed after 3 days and I have been fine since.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 12th, 2013 at 6:53am
Some very interesting posts and some great questions...  I'll do my best...

Mark, as Brew said, the nausea could be due to the calcium or the zinc... It could be the magnesium, the Omega 3 fish oil (per reports in the online survey) and possibly a combination of the above...  The online survey also indicated there were two reports of nausea as a result of an increase in vitamin D3 intake.  Splitting the dose helped one CH'er.

We all have colonies of beneficial bacteria in our gut...  Some of the supplements in this regimen can cause them to become perturbed for a day or two, and this can signal an increase in peristaltic contractions along the GI tract giving you the sensation and symptoms of nausea.  Too much magnesium can also make you loose as a goose.

You've a couple options... Keep taking this regimen with the largest meal of the day and ride it out...  Or... you can use the process of elimination and selectively remove each of the supplements one at a time for a day or two to see which is responsible for the nausea.

Oxyrunner, copy all... We're still learning what makes this regimen work and what keeps it from working...

Your last lab for 25(OH)D was 78 ng/mL on or about 29 Sept 2012.  That was high enough then for a therapeutic response, the question du jour is what is it now?

We've found that allergic reactions and viral infections like a cold or the flu can easily deplete our 25(OH)D reserves to low enough concentrations to fall out of remission, but you have none of these. On top of that you've already bumped up your vitamin D3 intake and you're taking vitamin A.

That leaves a drop in arterial/systemic pH (too much acid) as a possible reason for the cluster headaches...  If this is the case, taking Alka-Seltzer a couple times a day, two hours after eating, or the Arm & Hammer tonic (a half teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in 4 ounces of water), four times a day, two hours after eating and right before bed.

If either method works to lower the frequency of your cluster headaches, a low pH was likely the problem.  If that's the case, the antacids are only a temporary solution.  You'll need to start eating an alkalizing or GOMBS diet for a few weeks as a more lasting solution.  See the following links:

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Regarding your current lab data, I'm not a doctor so I'm not qualified to interpret your results.  What I can do is provide the normal reference ranges.

Lab Test            Normal Reference Range
Total calcium  -  2.1 to 2.8 mmol/L
PTH               -  10 to 65 pg/mL
Magnesium    -  0.7 to 0.95 mmol/L

As you can see your total calcium, PTH and magnesium lab results are all at the midpoint of their normal reference ranges.  Beyond that, I'm still at a loss to explain the return of your cluster headaches.

Please let us know the results of your 25(OH)D and zinc labs.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by zillygoat on Feb 13th, 2013 at 6:07pm
Just short of 2 weeks in.. Have had only had 4 hits the 1st 3-4    nights requiring injection, none during day requiring injection, still some unusual shadowing but even that has diminished greatly. Have actually begun to recall dreams (3) which has not happened in well over a year if not longer on any regular basis. I did notice that the 2 times I did not eat with my AM meal that urine was very dark with minerals vs all other times my body seemed to absorb much better as recommended. I plan on continuing this 10K IU for 1 more week with loading doses once a week then I will begin to taper off my 200mg daily topomax and 900 lithium slowly.  I plan on continuing the verapamil as it controls my BP extremely well for now 12 hours apart from D3...  Am having a little gastric issue but rather minor but could well be just me as I do have issues from time to time.... will report back.  Thanks

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Feb 15th, 2013 at 2:38am
So excellent news. From Batch's comments I figured that for some or other reason my body was using the D3 quicker than normal. I took a 50k loading dose on Tuesday and upped the daily dose to 30k, 20k in the morning after a bigger than usual breakfast and 10k after supper. Bingo, Wednesday a Kip 5 in the morning which took a while to break and since then only very light hits at night that clear by themselves after 10 minutes. Mildly intrusive as far as my sleeping patterns go but quite manageable. Good call Batch, thanks.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Feb 15th, 2013 at 9:09pm
Update of D3 Regimen:

I began the D3 regimen Monday Jan 21, increasing my D3 from 10,000iu to 15,000iu + 50,000iu loading that day.

FISH OIL 3 grams (Advocare Omega 3 complex )
ALIVE multivit with cofactors vit A,K Boron Zinc
Calcium Citrate 500mg (Kirkland)

Checked my D3 level two days later for a "baseline": 64.8ng/nl

Headaches persisted with vengance.

Friday, Feb 1, I met with the infamous BATCH to learn how to use O2 properly as an abortive. After the first 1-2 tries, my pain was brought down by about half . The next  day , I had a wicked headache but during the first few minutes of hyperventilation, I developed excruciating pain on the Left temple over the Trigeminal area (I had a microvascular nerve decompression surgery in Sept 2011 of the 9th cranial nerve. The year and half prior to surgery is when all my headaches/headpain and nerve pain developed).

Back to hyperventilating as an abortive;the pain was so excruciating that it took all I could muster to power through it, hoping it would change. It eventually dropped in severity after maybe a total of 3-4 min . I continued for another 10-15 min and quit. The headache had only dropped by half.

I spoke with Batch and we decided to try the OPTIMASK the next few times, without hyperventilating.

Bottom line: the  O2 didn't sigificantly impact my headaches and by that Sunday Feb 3, my head was killing me.

The character of the headache had changed, felt more like the worlds worst hangover-headache-on-cheap-sweet-wine x10, with every movement bouncing my poor brain inside my skull.

I had used 14 doses of TRIPTANS (combination IMITREX and SUMAVEL) in 30days so the thought I had was potentially rebound headache.
Saw the neurologist the next day who began a  course of DHE IM injections x5days ; TORDAL 30mg IM x 4 days; PREDNISONE DOSE PAK x 6 days ; VISTRAIL for nausea and adjunct for head-pain (for some reason ,antiemetics were/are the only thing that sometimes simmer the head/nerve pain) and she began me on ZONEGREN upping the dose to 400mg over 5 weeks.

Well, that was last Monday. Headaches all week, up and down, all over the place on intensity. Friday evening was my best day! Saturday I began to get headaches again, persisted off and on but by Tuesday, I had the best day in 6+weeks. Yay ! Thinking I am getting somewhere.

Well, toilet paper hit the fan Wednesday and I had to get DHE IM,Tordal IM. I was "dying".
Thursday, my internist orders an MRI because I swear my head is going to explode,I have chills and look worse than death. MRI thankfully showed no badness except INFLAMMATION and scarring around my trigeminal area. Labs were all good so back on the prednisone and one last dose of TORDAL for the month.

BUT my D3 was 110ng/nl ! My doc has been very receptive to my trying anything and everything to help my head but wants my D3 level around 80 so I am going to skip doses for 2 days, resume D3 at 15,000iu daily and thinking I don't need the weekly "boost" anymore. She said that if the D3 level gets TOO high,depending on your body chemistry, it can actually result in nervous system excitability and that may have been a contributor to my extreme flare this past week.

I would appreciate comments,advise.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 16th, 2013 at 8:56am

Quote:
My doc has been very receptive to my trying anything and everything to help my head but wants my D3 level around 80 so I am going to skip doses for 2 days, resume D3 at 15,000iu daily and thinking I don't need the weekly "boost" anymore. She said that if the D3 level gets TOO high,depending on your body chemistry, it can actually result in nervous system excitability and that may have been a contributor to my extreme flare this past week

She sounds like an idiot.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AngieH on Feb 16th, 2013 at 10:18am
I also had an upset belly when I started the vitamins, but I take one of each in the am and then one of each before bed, and that seems to help.   :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 16th, 2013 at 11:01pm

9thNerve wrote on Feb 15th, 2013 at 9:09pm:
Update of D3 Regimen:

I began the D3 regimen Monday Jan 21...  Headaches persisted with vengance.

Checked my D3 level two days later for a "baseline": 64.8ng/nl

Friday, Feb 1, I met with the infamous BATCH to learn how to use O2 properly as an abortive.

After the first 1-2 tries, my pain was brought down by about half.

The next  day , I had a wicked headache but during the first few minutes of hyperventilation, I developed excruciating pain on the Left temple over the Trigeminal area (I had a microvascular nerve decompression surgery in Sept 2011 of the 9th cranial nerve. Bottom line: the  O2 didn't sigificantly impact my headaches ...

Well, that was last Monday. Headaches all week, up and down, all over the place on intensity. Friday evening was my best day! Saturday I began to get headaches again, persisted off and on but by Tuesday, I had the best day in 6+weeks. Yay ! Thinking I am getting somewhere.

Well, toilet paper hit the fan Wednesday and I had to get DHE IM, Tordal IM. I was "dying".

Thursday, my internist orders an MRI because I swear my head is going to explode,I have chills and look worse than death. MRI thankfully showed no badness except INFLAMMATION and scarring around my trigeminal area. Labs were all good so back on the prednisone and one last dose of TORDAL for the month.

BUT my D3 was 110ng/nl ! My doc has been very receptive to my trying anything and everything to help my head but wants my D3 level around 80 so I am going to skip doses for 2 days, resume D3 at 15,000iu daily and thinking I don't need the weekly "boost" anymore. She said that if the D3 level gets TOO high, depending on your body chemistry, it can actually result in nervous system excitability and that may have been a contributor to my extreme flare this past week.


I hate it when that happens... 

Oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation and the anti-inflammatory regimen with at least 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 both work very effectively for most CH'ers.  Why they'er not working for 9thNerve is perplexing...  More on this later...

The opportunity to meet with another CH'er is always very special.  The meeting with 9thNerve and her husband was no exception...

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Batch, Joyce and 9thNerve


It took less than a minute...  that's after I got over her stunning beauty and striking resemblance to the actress Michelle Pfeiffer... (Joyce and I agreed later 9thNerve is much better looking), to discover that 9thNerve, her husband and I were all University of Washington alumni... their two sons currently attend the UW to boot...

Then we got on to the topic of cluster headache medications and that opiates didn't work...  That led to a discussion about Svenn's problem with morphine and my trip with him across Norway from Oslo to Haugesund on the West coast where I was scheduled to speak about oxygen therapy at the 2009 Clustercompagniet Cluster Headache & Migraine conference...

At that point... 9thNerve got a big smile on her face.  It turns out she was born and raised less than 10 Km North of Haugesund.

Then it dawned on me...  that was part of her problem...  She's a Viking... Ufda!

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One of the more interesting parts of our meeting came with discussions on oxygen therapy with hyperventilation and the relationship between a vitamin D3 deficiency and cluster headache. 

It turns out 9thNerve's husband is a physician at one of Seattle's largest hospitals. He specializes in the treatment of patients suffering from pulmonary disorders...

He'd read one of my papers discussing both methods of treating cluster headache and commented they both make perfect sense.

Not only did he consider these two treatments very safe based on his medical experience and training, but he also commented that I had connected the dots with these two methods of treating patients with cluster headache that most neurologists have missed up to now...

After the swelling in my head subsided... we discussed what to do next...  As you've likely figured out by now, the visit went very well and we've all been in frequent contact over the last two weeks.

With respect to the anti-inflammatory regimen, 9thNerve is one of the special cases where her 25(OH)D is clearly in the green zone, but she's still getting hit. 

We've discussed this in the past in this thread and the next step is to stop the calcium supplements for a couple weeks and make sure to take vitamin A (retinol) at RDA along with the other vitamin D cofactors.   9thNerve is doing this so hopefully, it's just a matter of time before she starts responding with a significant reduction in the frequency of her cluster headaches.

Her internist also made a correct call in saying a 25(OH)D serum concentration too high can cause problems...  I agree...  However, the threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication is generally thought to be above 200 to 250 ng/mL...  We've had a handful of CH'ers with 25(OH)D serum concentrations this high while under their physician's supervission, and there were no problems with toxicity as indicated by total calcium serum concentrations above the normal reference range.

9thNerve's use of oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation is another story...  Given she experiences a new sharp pain near the site of her vascular decompression surgery shortly after starting this method of oxygen therapy, it appears the artery in question is clamping down on the trigeminal ganglion and this is causing the pain.  In short, this method of oxygen therapy is working too well...

That's just a SWAG on my part as I'm not a doctor and we don't have any magnetic resonance angiography to prove it.  That said, any new pain after starting this method of oxygen therapy isn't normal... 

Accordingly, I'm afraid 9thNerve is no longer a candidate for oxygen therapy with hyperventilation.  Oxygen therapy at normal respiration rates may be ok...

That's all for now...

Take care...

V/R, The Infamous Batch   ;)


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Feb 17th, 2013 at 12:14am
My Hero !

I will overcome this, come hell or fjord!

Thanks for the support and your infinite wisdom!
9th Nerve

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by pattik on Feb 18th, 2013 at 2:28pm
I was happy to finally get tested for 25(OH)D and found that my serum level is 96 ng/mL. Although, the lab doing the testing said that their "normal" range is 30-80. I have been taking 10,000 IU of D3 for almost a year now, and it's good to see this result.  I'm only a few weeks away from my regularly scheduled yearly episode, so this ought to be interesting. I have had a few random attacks with low pain levels over the last month, so it hasn't been 100% effective.  Still, I'll take it. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 18th, 2013 at 2:35pm

pattik wrote on Feb 18th, 2013 at 2:28pm:
I was happy to finally get tested for 25(OH)D and found that my serum level is 96 ng/mL. Although, the lab doing the testing said that their "normal" range is 30-80. I have been taking 10,000 IU of D3 for almost a year now, and it's good to see this result.  I'm only a few weeks away from my regularly scheduled yearly episode, so this ought to be interesting. I have had a few random attacks with low pain levels over the last month, so it hasn't been 100% effective.  Still, I'll take it. 

If you'll take it, so will I! Here's hoping...

Title: Great results from the D3 regimen!
Post by Meadowlark on Feb 18th, 2013 at 9:03pm
Hello everyone,

I'd like to share some wonderful news about successful results using the D3 anti-inflammatory regimen. The story takes a bit of telling, but I hope you'll find it worth your time.

I live in the US, but there is a young woman in Zambia who has earned such a significant place in my heart that I now consider her to be my "adopted" daughter. Helen is intelligent, kind, patient, honest, and hard-working. When I met her six years ago, she was living in miserable conditions and battling hunger every day with no hope of a better life.

Last June, Helen graduated from business college at the top of her class. It hadn't been an easy road. Viral meningitis had caused her to drop out of school halfway through her second year, which she then had had to repeat. During her final year of school, malaria almost took her life. After two months in the hospital, she was finally well enough to go home. Back in school, she attended classes during the day and studied all night, determined to catch up. Her refusal to accept defeat paid off and she graduated with honors.

In September, armed with top grades and a degree in human resource management, Helen began looking for a job. She landed a position in the human resource department of a large bank in Lusaka, the capital city. Her new life, one that she'd once never even dreamed of, was finally beginning. She was excited and happy - - - and then the headaches began.

She told me about it in a phone call, "Mom, I feel like it wants to kill me. The pain is like hell on earth. The thought of facing it every night is with me all day, and I'm afraid to go to sleep."

She cried. I cried. It was so incredibly unfair.

Tiredness, constant pain in her neck and shoulder and a general weakness all seemed to be related to the nightly headaches. Before long, it became impossible for Helen to work. She was granted a medical leave from her new job, but had no idea when - or if - she'd be able to go back.

From that first phone call, I'd immediately started searching for answers. I'd thought of cluster headaches, but hadn't known how extreme the pain was or how debilitating they can be. The Zambian doctor had never heard of cluster headaches so I sent text messages with information about prednisone and verapamil. Neither of these had any effect.

Then I found this board and told the doctor about oxygen. It was a tremendous help in limiting Helen's time of suffering each night, but she still wasn't able to lead a normal life. This sweet young woman, who had struggled so hard, and overcome so many obstacles, was becoming more and more depressed each day.

I went back to the internet and kept looking for anything that could possibly help. Fortunately, I happened to stumble onto this thread. (Perhaps it should have D3 in the subject line?) 

Everything I read here made sense and, at this point, we were willing to try anything. Helen started taking D3, omega 3 and calcium citrate with orange juice and a bit of honey. A blood test showed her D3 level was 28.8 ng/ml.

After exactly two weeks, with Helen taking 20,000 IU of D3 a day and an additional 50,000 once a week, my phone rang again - "Mom! The pain is no more! I am free! Oh! I am so very, very happy!"

I cried again, but this time for joy.

It's been four nights now and there have been no headaches, not even a twinge. Some people may say it's too soon to be certain, but I believe the beast has been vanquished. If there's any change, I'll let you know. Helen will have another blood test soon. I'll post the results when I get them.

"Thank you" doesn't begin to express my gratitude, but it will have to do.

Sir Batch, I salute you and offer you my most sincere thanks! You have rescued my daughter from the depths of pain and despair. You are truly our hero!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 18th, 2013 at 10:47pm
I love when a post brings a tear to me eyes! [smiley=shore.gif] [smiley=shore.gif] [smiley=shore.gif]

I hope there's no one left who is unclear on what this board is all about!

Batch? [smiley=bow.gif] I thank you yet again sir.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by zillygoat on Feb 19th, 2013 at 9:24pm
Quick question...   I noticed some weird what I thought was shadowing ( so many define this differently ) / mild headache bi lateral (not my right side of norm)  when 1st starting the D3 treatment at the first of this month. It passed in a few days and I have slowly seen changes especially at night. These lingering dull headaches which Ibuprofen knocked out returned both times I did the 50K IU loading doses and same deal but they dissipated over the next day or so.  I assume many have different affects and was just curious. I have had just 2 hits now since feb 2nd compared to over 60 recorded the previous month. I was long overdue for a break but things are not the same in my head and am still plugging away and looking forward to seeing my levels next month.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Feb 21st, 2013 at 12:36pm
Into 4th week: D3 20,000 daily + 50,000 once a week, daily: fish oil 2800mg, caltrate, multivitamin and 8000iu vitamin A. Any changes needed to above?  Intend to stay with this for next month and see how we are doing then.

Things are a little different with CH's.  The good news is no Relpax in the last 3 nights.  Pain seems to have shifted from temple to area behind eye ball and is a very dull (bruised?) pain K3-4.  Still enough to wake me up but O2 and Goody's will let me get 4 or 5 hours of sleep before next episode. Have had 2 daytime headaches in last 2 weeks.  Both while away from home, imitrex shot for first one and took Goody's for second one. 

Really enjoy reading the success stories, looking forward to celebrating my own and becoming a devoted Batchloreite

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Feb 21st, 2013 at 5:31pm
Just out of curiosity, is there any reference material/studies for sustained intake of high-dose D3 (say 5000IU+ daily) over a period of years?

I know that  the Institute of Medicine (IOM) states the tolerable upper limit (UL) is 4000 IU per day for adults.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by unclebbq on Feb 21st, 2013 at 9:53pm
Hey Zillygoat,
    I've been on the d3 regimen  for 9 days now, and am having a similar experience as you. Kinda of like a shadow but not really, mine feel like a hangover headache. Luckily I've not had any attacks for 7 days, just this shadowy thing.  I really think the D3 stopped my cycle, cause I was only about a week into it. I am interested to know your D3 level when you get your results. I ordered a home testing kit yesterday. I've been searching the side effects of too much D3 and headache or dehydration are not listed. I'm taking 20,000IU.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 21st, 2013 at 10:30pm
Just a note to folks who still need to have their 25(OH)D serum level checked. Even though your insurance might not pay for it, I found that the lab I use for all my other blood testing will only charge me their contracted rate for the test - not full retail price. It costs me $24.

But you have to ask.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Balanchine on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 11:06am
Although I'm not quite ready to stand on the rooftop and declaim Batch's vitamin regimen to the world as THE cure for The Beast... I must admit I've got the ladder out.

At the moment my head is totally quiet. Zero shadows, nuttin'. Normally during a cycle I always feel something, even a low level K2-3ish. I began the regimen a week ago today, and the last few nights have been characterized by: sleep.

Oh and when they drew blood to do some other tests a few weeks ago turns out it's still around so they're doing the D3 testing as we speak. I will post the results!

David

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 11:13am
DJP,

Great question.  For starters, 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is not a high-dose...  Some neurologists routinely prescribe 100,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for their Relapsing-Remitting Multiple Sclerosis (RRMS) patients.

The simple answer is there haven't been any studies completed taking sustained oral doses of vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day.  That said, we're out in front of the power curve and most neurologists with the anti-inflammatory regimen using a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day as a cluster headache preventative.

There are several RCTs in progress calling for even higher doses for up to 90 days.  I might add however, that none of these RCTs are using any of the vitamin D3 cofactors.

For example, in one RCT, the dietary supplement: vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) liquid vitamin D solution (vitamin D3 in ethanol) is being taken daily at one of three possible doses (400, 10,000, or 40,000 IU/d) for 4-6 weeks prior to radical prostatectomy. 

There's another study in progress comparing daily vitamin D3 intakes of 5,000 and 10,000 IU/day for patients suffering from RRMS.

I've spoken with several RRMS patients who have taken 100,000 IU/day vitamin D3 under their physician's supervision for up to a month to combat a flare up of their multiple sclerosis before getting tested for 25(OH)D and falling back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.

Regarding the IOM recommendations on vitamin D3 intake... You've hit a nerve... and it isn't my left trigeminal ganglion either... 

If readers of this post are not up to a tutorial on what big government bureaucrats and dirt bag politicians are doing to our healthcare and how much regulating power big government should have to restrict your access to USP supplements like oxygen and vitamin D3...  please read no further...

A vitamin D3 Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) of 400 IU/day and Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) of 4,000 IU/day are two of the most absurd recommendations from the big government bureaucrats I've ever seen...

The first thing you need to understand is the Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) panel at Institute of Medicine (IOM), who made the initial recommendation for an RDA of 400 IU/day and a UL of 4000 IU/day was made up of four clueless bureaucrats...  not physicians.

In my humble opinion, knowing what I know now, were these practicing physicians making recommendations like this to their patients, they would be subject to malpractice...

Unfortunately, three of the "expert" members of the FNB panel who made this recommendation are tenured professors from academia... and the fourth is a long time government bureaucrat at DHHS. 

None of the four are practicing physicians or licensed nutritionists so have never treated someone with a vitamin D3 deficiency... yet when provided with the results of thousands of clinical observations attesting to the safety and efficacy of vitamin D3 at doses up to 10,000 IU/day and higher by practicing endocrinologists...  they ruled otherwise and opted for the present RDA and UL.

"Expert" panel members at the IOM from the US and Canada who reviewed the FNB recommendations appeared to have fallen into the grasp of the medical evidence mafia...  In other words, unless there are several concurring randomized, placebo controlled, double-blind clinical trials on the safety and efficacy of vitamin D3, the huge body of clinical evidence gathered over the last 20 years by practicing physicians attesting to the safety and efficacy of vitamin D3 therapy... means absolutely nothing...

The frightening part of all this is these are the same kind of big government bureaucrats who are already administrating obamacare... 

They are also among the same big government bureaucrats in healthcare who already ruled that there is insufficient medical evidence on the efficacy of oxygen therapy as an abortive for cluster headache...   

In this case, the big government bureaucrats at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) made a non-coverage determination that denies Medicare beneficiaries suffering from cluster headache (like me), coverage for oxygen therapy...  So much for covering the treatment of existing medical conditions...  Yet another lie... and these bureaucrats already administer obamacare so stand by for more non-coverage determinations...

If that's not bad enough...  the government doesn’t just want to discourage you from taking extra Vitamin D, they also want to prohibit you from taking it at higher doses above the RDA and UL.

Senator Dick Durban, D-Ill., in 2011 introduced a bill (innocuously labeled the “Supplement Labeling Act”) which would so over-regulate the supplement industry that they could no longer supply products such as Vitamin D3 at a cost affordable to the average consumer.

Here’s an example of the IOM’s logic. It recommended 600 IU of vitamin D3 for a pregnant woman. It then said that the moment the baby is born, it should have 400 IU while the mother continues to need 600 IU. On the face of it, this makes no sense at all.

The IOM committee was also apparently about to restate the safe upper intake level of vitamin D3 well above the previous 2,000 IU per day. Then, just before publication, and for no apparent reason—certainly no reason based on science—it reversed course and pulled a meager 4,000 IU out of thin air as the new upper limit.

Scientists such as John Cannell, MD, who have really studied vitamin D3, suggest that 4,000 IU would be a more reasonable recommended daily allowance, not an upper limit.

Don’t forget that the FDA in 1972 tried to ban any supplement dose higher than 400 IU unless taken under a doctor’s prescription.

What both the FDA and the Institute of Medicine have in common is that both agencies know very little about supplements... but are nevertheless deeply biased against them.

In the FDA’s case, this may be because of all the fees that the agency gets from the "big pharma" drug companies. Or because many of the agency’s outside panelists who make these determinations are paid by the drug companies.

In the IOM’s case, many of its experts of course also receive fees from drug companies. Yet these are the people whom Senator Durbin wants to give complete arbitrary power over supplements!

For example, under the senator’s bill...  that's been stalled in committee, but could emerge at any time...  the FDA could require warnings on supplement labels of any length that would say anything the government wants, no matter how unreasonable.

It would create lists of “bad” ingredients or “bad” dosages based on completely arbitrary or nonexistent standards. Whatever the FDA says would go. And once an ingredient or supplement is singled out for this treatment, there is no process to challenge the determination, not even if new or contradictory evidence comes to light.

This is really bad legislation...  just like obamacare...

Please don't take my assessment of the IOM recommendations as gospel...  Read for yourself what other experts in vitamin D therapy have stated then you decide:

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If that's not enough, Google "Reinhold Veith + IOM" or "Robert Heaney + IOM".

I should also point out again that it's not just the idiot big government bureaucrats that make these recommendations...  We also have a politburo full of elected idiots, quislings and RINOs signing legislation they didn't write or read that was prepared by special interest groups... that will eventually prevent us from taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to control our cluster headache.

These are the same kind of elected idiot dirt bag politicians who are presently using scare tactics and fear mongering to insult us... saying that the sequestration legislation proposed by Obama, passed in 2011 by both parties and signed into law by Obama, is now going to cause the mother of all financial catastrophes...   

These include among other things, massive layoffs, furlows, school closings, no fire or police response, 3-hour TSA delays at airports, and criminals released because there are no prosecuting attorneys...  What a crock of BS!!!

In order to understand the load of bull crap these dirt bags are trying to sell us, you only need to understand a few federal budget basics...

1. We haven't had a budget passed by Congress in 4 years so we've been operating on a series of continuing resolutions...

2.  Under a continuing resolution each year's budget is equal to last year's budget (the baseline) plus an additional amount equal to the rate of inflation times the increase in population times last year's budget...

3. This increase happens automatically with each continuing resolution passed and the amount added each year to the previous year "baseline" is approximately $100 Billion Dollars or an additional annual increase in the total federal budget of 4 to 5%.

Consider the following facts provided by the Congressional Budget Office on the United States federal budget over the last five years:

2009 United States federal budget - $3.1 trillion (submitted 2008 by President Bush) 

2010 United States federal budget - $3.6 trillion (submitted 2009 by President Obama)

2011 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2010 by President Obama)

2012 United States federal budget - $3.7 trillion (submitted 2011 by President Obama)

2013 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2012 by President Obama)

The upcoming series of sequestration cuts will cut $1.2 Trillion over the next ten years, with $85 billion kicking in for FY 2013 on March 1...

Here's where a little math comes in handy...  If the federal budget grows by $100 Billion a year and this year's part of the sequestration is $85 Billion Dollars...  Then next year's federal budget will grow by $15 Billion Dollars...

So where is this horrendous budget cut that will do all the terrible damage Obama claims will happen?  Another lie!

Please don't get me wrong...  The sequestration legislation is terrible on several counts...  For starters, too many people don't understand the word sequestration...  or how it is being applied...  If it was called what it really is, a cut in the rate of budget growth, most would understand it's reasonable and not the end of the world.

(1) There is no actual cut in the baseline budget...  The FY 2013 budget will be larger than last year... but the increase won't be as large as in previous years.

(2) The cuts are mandatory across the board on all accounts with no provisions to move money around between accounts...  A good manager could move funds around to minimize the impact of not getting the planned budget increases...  but Congress did not want to give Department managers this option...  they might cut funding to useless pet pork barrel projects mandated by Congress...

(3) Half of these cuts come disproportionally out of the Defense Budget... The Defense budget is roughly 17% of the total budget yet it is getting hit with half the sequestration cuts... What is really disturbing is the sequestration cuts come on top of the 10% Defense budget cut Obama has already imposed.

(4) The cuts in non-defense spending are not big enough...  We will still have another $1 Trillion Dollar deficit... on top of a $16.558 Trillion Dollar National Debt...  See: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

In closing here are a few things to ponder... there were over 6,100 new regulations issued by the obamanoids in the 90 days prior to the November election...  and an estimate 10,000 more due out on obamacare... 

Most of these regulations will increase the cost of living and all of them rob us of our freedoms one way or another.

More and more of the promised benefits of obamacare are turning out to be lies... just as the biggest fears about obamacare are coming true.

Finally... elections have consequences... 

If you want to keep your present access to vitamin D3 and the other supplements at doses that help prevent your cluster headaches... call, write or email your Senators and Congressional Representatives.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 11:13am
Careful using the "c" word around here - If you take something once or twice and never suffer from the malady again, THAT would be a cure.

This is still just a treatment.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wmutim on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 4:25pm
Word of caution: Long post (first time)

Have only recently found this site.  41 years old and have had CH since I was 16.  I was in much worse shape when I was younger because no doctors had a clue what was wrong.  Back then I would go 6 to 8 months at a time and only get a couple of months of a break.  About 10 years ago I finally found a doctor who diagnosed the cluster headaches and was able to knock them out.  Verapamil has been the most effective method, but they have also used antidepressants and anti-sezuire medicines depending on the doctor.  Since they diagnosed them I usually get breaks of 2 to 3 years between episodes.  I actually had been pain free for about 4 years until a couple a weeks ago.  I know this may sound crazy but I actually think I triggered this episode by drinking a powdered magnesium citrate drink for the first time (had my first one later that night kip 6 or 7).

Anyways, I recently had just started to get into vitamins and had already been taking D3 for about a month (5000 IU's).  Between the multivitamin, magnesium, fish oil and my vitamin C I think I take everything in this protocol except for the Boron (checked the multivitamin last night).  I did go to the doctor to get the Verapamil prescription last week, but I HATE VERAPAMIL (get heart flutters, etc.)  First few doses of Verapamil made it worse, so I stopped (they gave me 120 mg slow release to take twice a day).  Just yesterday I took 20,000 IU's of D3 and will do again today.  Last two nights were rough (constant headaches after about 1 hour of sleep),so I did take 240 mg last night (doubled up the dose) because I was having a rough night.  Today seems to be better (only a couple of light shadows) but I am not sure if it is the extra Vitamin D3 kicking in or the Verapamil. 

I will update as I figure out more.  I am still debating on going to find the calcium citrate because I think I get enoug already.  Also I am scared to get better magnesium after what I experienced.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Balanchine on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 5:31pm
Wmutim - welcome. You don't mention anything about oxygen. Have you looked into it?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Feb 22nd, 2013 at 5:36pm
You had me at "Big Government."  Say no more.  Those over-funded clowns aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Feb 23rd, 2013 at 3:30am
I re-read most of this thread and after digesting all of batch's information I mixed things up a bit - I reduced the D3 to 10,000iu, reduced the calcium by half, upped the zinc and magnesium and started eating nuts and seeds (to help with ph levels) - the results = no CH for over a week, just the occassional shadow.
For anyone sitting on the side lines, not sure whether to give this regime a go - what are you waiting for? I was struggling a bit because it wasn't working but Batch offered some suggestions and what can I say - this lovely guy certainly knows what he's talking about.  If the basic regime isn't working then let Batch know - it could be something as simple as elevating your ph levels by changing your diet.
For the record my ph levels have gone from 5.75 to 7.25 just by adding the nuts and seeds to my breakfast.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wmutim on Feb 23rd, 2013 at 4:06am
Balanchine

No I haven't tried oxygen as of yet. Rough night tonight but I am going to keep up with the d3. Think the Verapamil might be helping because I was about 20 hours after my last dose when I got hit with a 10. I do have access to oxygen at work so may try to figure out how to do a hit at work if this episode keeps up

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Feb 23rd, 2013 at 8:15am
Batch,
Please tell us what you REALLY think of BIG government and their attacks on individual rights and liberties.  It took me a year to convince neurologist to let me try oxygen and another year to get BC-BS to pay for some of it and now you say Medicare is not going to cover any of the cost for oxygen therapy?  Will be going on Medicare in December, is there anything I can do NOW to establish O2 as a viable treatment for CH attacks with the Medicare folks?  I did all the initial research on O2 for my neurologist, drafted a letter for him (which he edited and added appropriate medical verbiage) sent this along with a letter from me explaining the monetary benefits of oxygen over Imetrex shots and they eventually agreed to help with the cost.  Also had to have neurologist write a yearly letter for me to get 18 Relpax a month instead of the recommended 9 per month.  Was always denied initially and twice had to have attorney write a letter to BC-BS before they would agree to dosage. Educating big insurance to CH treatment was a constant battle, probably not even possible with big government.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by oxyrunner on Feb 26th, 2013 at 11:14am
Hi Batch,
Finally got the last 2 test results back - D3 is 300 - I knew it was going to he high and have knocked the dose back to 10,000 and the zinc was 10.1. Thanks again for all your help and advice
Sarah x

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Feb 26th, 2013 at 9:05pm
300 what?

Furlongs per fortnight?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by one2 on Feb 26th, 2013 at 9:47pm
New to the site a few weeks ago.  38 year old male.  This is only my second cycle.  The first was three years ago but was diagnosed as TN by my PCP.  The ol friend returned Jan 16 and started treatment as TN again.  After a few weeks was referred to a Neuro and was told I had cluster headaches.  Mine are during the day.  Usually three attacks and they usually last three hours or I'll have two with the second one lasting 5-6 hours.  Topamax lasted two days.  Side effects did me in quick, it was ugly. So I found this site and started the D3 regimen on 2/14.  I had to take it slow they were rough on the stomach for a couple days.  On 2\19 I was on the basic regimen  with a multi vitamin and magnesium.  On 2/22 I started the 20,000IU per day with the one day 50,000iu.  I also started Verapamil on 2/15 at 120mg and bumped it on 2/19 to 240mg.  Neuro and PCP have been pretty good but neither will give me oxygen.
Had the 25(oh)D test done yesterday.  Results today were 32ng/ml.  Also met with Internal Dr. yesterday.  Going to do enzyme testing to find out what else I am lacking and how I can fix any thyroid or other organ problems that may be contributing to the vita d deficiency.  i do have hyper thyroid and am hoping to correct that though proper nutrition.
So through all of that, tomorrow will be the end of six weeks on this cycle.  Things were different yesterday when I woke up.  The pain has dulled and moved toward the top of my fore head. The pain level and frequency were  way down.  Today was even better, only a dull 5 headache for a couple hours.  So either I'm ending the cycle, the D3 regimen is working or the Verapamil is kicking in or maybe all three.  Also all three doctors were ok with the regimen but all three are not in agreement on the level I want to be at.  I am going to go on a diet through my Internal Dr. but he's going to have to accept the therapeutic levels.  I will get levels checked in a month or two and report back.  Also I was given the sumatriptan air syringes but quickly found that the rebound headache the next day wasn't worth it.  Thanks Batch for all this info on here.  Hope all this info can be helpful to someone else too.
one2

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 26th, 2013 at 10:28pm
Enli, Oxyrunner,

Sorry to be so slow in responding... Some good weather over the last few days gave me an opportunity to buck up and split some windfall trees for fire wood...

Enli, what I said about big government stands... We're all getting screwed and we didn't even get a kiss... 

As far as the CMS non-coverage determination for oxygen therapy for Medicare beneficiaries suffering from cluster headache goes... there's little hope of having it overturned and I'm afraid we're going to be screwed again when obamacare kicks in and drives private medical insurance companies out of the market. 

The only saving grace is big government is so inefficient it could take a while for the droid bureaucrats to connect the dots.  When they do, plan on taking up welding... or buying your medical oxygen out of pocket.

I've fought the bureaucrats at CMS since 2009 with no satisfaction.  In March of 2010, the American Headache Society picked up the challenge and launched an official request to CMS to review their non-coverage determination.  Dr. Fred Sheftell, MD, who was President of AHS at the time, actually called me to discuss what I had been doing on this topic and indicated AHS had assembled a team of experts to have the non-coverage determination overturned.

I worked with Dr. Sheftell's team  for several weeks, but they didn't realize how diabolical the bureaucrats at CMS can be when they sink their teeth into a political agenda like this.

Unfortunately, CMS used the power of the bureaucratic pen and prevailed in October of 2010 reaffirming their non-coverage determination so the entire effort was a total loss. Dr Sheftell, a chronic migraineur, passed away in April 2011 after a four year battle with colon cancer.

Oxyrunner, I'm happy something worked for you.  A low arterial pH can lower the effectiveness of nearly all CH medications...  Adding seeds and nuts to your diet was a good move...

Take care and please keep me posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on Feb 26th, 2013 at 10:29pm
I wonder if anyone has an idea why this treatment would help so many people,  and busting would help so many people.  What is the corrolation between the two methods?  They must be achieving the same results somehow, but how? :-/

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 27th, 2013 at 4:28am
Hmmm...  Interesting question... and I'm not sure we're going to get a good answer until some organization puts up a big chunk of coin to do all the research... 

We do know that both methods of preventing cluster headache work...  You'll need to talk with Bob Wold to get the busting numbers...

Dr. John Halpern's 2-bromo-LSD (BOL) also appears to be an effective CH preventative, although only a handful of CH'ers have had the opportunity to try it...

The only connection I know of between the anti-inflammatory regimen and busting is a bit thin...  and it deals only with shrooms... They're also high in ergocaciferol...  vitamin D2...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Carl D on Feb 27th, 2013 at 8:47am
I've been doing the Vitamin D3 regimen as part of my R.A. treatments, and while we had the meet n greet last month in St Louis, I was talking with Guiseppi about it, and he swears by its efficiency with CH.
After talking with him, I came back and read the exact doses for the CH treatment. Unfortunately, it was only a couple of weeks later that I went back into cycle.

While it didn't stop the cycle or prevent it from coming on - this one hasn't been brutal. Ok, I've had some pretty brutal days, but am skipping 2-3 days at a time without an attack, and then might get hit 2-4 times in a day, or just once. It has been really weird, as scents were a HUGE trigger late last year while in my last cycle. I couldn't even go to the Dr's office without going into an attack.

I know we're all wired differently, and so things affect us differently. I just have to wait to go back and get my D3 levels tested before I can make a jump past 50'000 iu's a day. I am convinced though, that this has made the cycle "low" for me, as I would normally be getting hit 2-12 times a day, everyday.

Thanks again Batch for all of your research on this.
Carl D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by djphrenzy on Feb 27th, 2013 at 11:11am

Carl D wrote on Feb 27th, 2013 at 8:47am:
I've been doing the Vitamin D3 regimen as part of my R.A. treatments, and while we had the meet n greet last month in St Louis, I was talking with Guiseppi about it, and he swears by its efficiency with CH.
After talking with him, I came back and read the exact doses for the CH treatment. Unfortunately, it was only a couple of weeks later that I went back into cycle.

While it didn't stop the cycle or prevent it from coming on - this one hasn't been brutal. Ok, I've had some pretty brutal days, but am skipping 2-3 days at a time without an attack, and then might get hit 2-4 times in a day, or just once. It has been really weird, as scents were a HUGE trigger late last year while in my last cycle. I couldn't even go to the Dr's office without going into an attack.

I know we're all wired differently, and so things affect us differently. I just have to wait to go back and get my D3 levels tested before I can make a jump past 50'000 iu's a day. I am convinced though, that this has made the cycle "low" for me, as I would normally be getting hit 2-12 times a day, everyday.

Thanks again Batch for all of your research on this.
Carl D


If you're cycle appears disrupted, but clearly not eliminated, I'd bet your 25(OH)D is somewhere around 35-50 ng/mL.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 27th, 2013 at 7:51pm
Hey Carl,

Thanks for the post. I agree with DJP, your 25(OH)D serum concentration is likely too low to provide a complete therapeutic response that prevents your CH.

Please don't get me wrong.  You do need to see your PCP and get your 25(OH)D tested...  That said, there's no real reason not to be taking at least 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3...  or even adding a 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 once a week.

After all, your skin can generate 15,000 IU of vitamin D3 in as little as 15 to 20 minutes if...  you go out in the mid day summer sun clad in a bathing suit with no sun block... 

You probably don't do that and neither do I any more...  The skin cancer mafia has us all spooked...

Some other things to try that may improve your response to the anti-inflammatory regimen is take more magnesium... 

Just make sure it's magnesium citrate, magnesium lactate or magnesium glycinate.   These forms of magnesium have 80-90% bioavailability...  magnesium oxide bioavailability is down around 4%.

Too much magnesium oxide also acts as a laxative...  :o

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on Feb 28th, 2013 at 10:42pm
hi everyone,  all of this info on the benefits of D3 is fascinating.  Not just for ch, but for so many problems and conditions. I would love to get my husband to follow a D3 regimin, just for heart health, cancer prevention etc.  He hates pills and medicines in general,  he sees my box of bottles and all of the meds and supplements I have been taking lately and his eyes bug out.  Anyway,  was wondering, what is the combo you need to take for a general dosage of D3 to get your levels up?  Should he take just 10000 D3, and a calcium citrate? Or a multivitamin?  Im just not sure.  I need to do this with the least amount of pills as possible.  anyone know?   Thanks. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 1st, 2013 at 3:16am
Chris,

Good on you for recognizing all the other health benefits that come from taking the anti-inflammatory regimen... over and above preventing your cluster headaches... and that your husband needs to be on this regimen as well. 

I'd like to hear that more CH'ers are introducing this regimen to the rest of their families...  It makes so much good sense...

The basic anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is good for teens and adults...  You can cut it in half for the younger members of the family.  Talk with your family PCP about it.

I understand your husband's push-back on the number of pills...  My wife wasn't all that keen on taking what she called a "handful of horse pills" either. 

That said, wives can be very pursuasive when they want something...  I'm not a behavioral psychologist, however, I learned at an early age that a reward system is far more effective in modifying behaviors than brow beating or brute force...  Think about it for a few seconds and I'm confident you'll come up a system of well timed rewards...

So here's a suggestion... The following photo illustrates the basic regimen that took me pain free and has kept me that way for over two years. 

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Your husband needs to take two of each for starters...

The not so subtle visual here is taking something good together...  The two ramekins containing the daily regimen sit side by side next to the kitchen phone and you can't walk into our kitchen without seeing them...

It took two days with a second ramekin filled with "bait" next to mine, which was always empty, for Joyce to take the hint... 

She already knew this regimen was preventing the cluster headaches that had  haunted me for 15 years...  She also noticed that I had more energy and had lost nearly 10 lbs after taking this regimen for a month or so...

The final clincher was a sotto voce comment, "this regimen also prevents migraines..."  and it did...  Joyce hasn't had a migraine since starting this regimen two years ago... Prior to that, she'd been a 20 year chronic migraineur with 3 to 5 day long migraine headaches hitting like clockwork each month.

So there you have it...  It's not a one pill solution that fits all...  At some point you can start discussing the benefits of vitamin K2 menaquinone-7 (MK-7) that directs serum calcium away from arteries and into the bones... 

There's also multivitamins like Centrum Silver or Safeway's Century Senior 50+ formula, both of which contain vitamin A (retinol) that's essential for the autocrine/paracrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism at the cellular level.  This is the vitamin D3 metabolic path that builds the immune system and enables the genetic expression that works all the magic preventing so many disorders...

There's only one word of caution...  Fertility tends to go up when couples go on this regimen together... [smiley=JAW_DROP.gif]

Take care and please keep us posted,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:23am
thanks Batch,  you really are the greatest.  Ive got to get the number down for him or hes just not going to take them.  Well,  the good thing is,  he is a roofer who is out in the sunshine pretty much all year,  but of course in the winter he is all covered up.  Hopefully just some D3 and calcium citrate will help to get his levels up somewhat .  Ive been on your combo for about a wk and a half now, I dont think I am seeing any results,  because I was having the wk from hell and I upped my verap dose and nighttime hits got better, but I dont expect that to last,  unless the D3 combo helps by then.
   I havent had my levels checked,  I just havent been able to afford an extra doctors visit.  I will go next month, and tell her to check them,  between the original doctors visit, O2, meds, and vits,  Im broke.  BTW,  I have been having severe stress due to financial probs this past yr, then I got the flu in early Jan, followed by a sinus infection.  Immediately afterward BAM!!!!  CH  kicked in after 2 and half yrs pain free!!  I think this makes sense since stress and illness can lower your D3, Its very interesting!!!!!!
:-?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:49am
Just an update, started getting 1-2 day time CH's in addition to 1-2 night time CH's.  Fell off the wagon, went with a 4 week round of Prednisone for a little relief.  Last two days sure have been nice, but know that once I get to 1-2 pills a day on taper they will start sneaking back.  Maybe the weather will be warm enough by then to start back fishing and getting more outdoors!

Checked around for D lab testing and found one lab that would give a  20% discount to none insurers, but cost was still about $90/test and only if Doc would request the test and if I have to see him that's another $90-100.  Soooo, checked out sites with the mail in cardboard blood sample and they are around $60.  One site offer to check for $40 and when I filled out application turned out they were only offering it to female migraine suffers. Ha!  Guess I could have lied and filled it out with my wife's name and sent in my blood.  Hmmm?

Still have faith, just needed a little escape from the pain.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 1st, 2013 at 10:02am

Quote:
One site offer to check for $40 and when I filled out application turned out they were only offering it to female migraine suffers. Ha!  Guess I could have lied and filled it out with my wife's name and sent in my blood.  Hmmm?

One quick test would show them that the blood supplied was from a male. Hmmm...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 1st, 2013 at 2:00pm
Enli,

Understand the need to have a break...  Regarding 25(OH)D lab testing, have you checked out ZRT Labs at the Vitamin D Council web site? 

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$65 and no Rx required... 

No charge with an Rx...  See below:

ZRT Laboratory will courtesy bill the following insurance companies as an out-of-network provider:

    Original Medicare Part B
    Medicare Advantage Plans
    TRICARE
    Cigna Healthcare
    Humana
    Medical Mutual

What information do I need to submit to ZRT along with my sample in order to bill my insurance?

You will need to send the following along with your sample:
  • Legibly signed laboratory order with applicable diagnosis code(s)
  • Date of birth
  • Physician’s full printed name, address, and NPI number
  • Legible front & back copy of primary insurance card
  • Signed & dated ZRT Insurance Authorization Form (included in kit)
It's all done through the mail... 

They'll send you the home blood spot test kit and return mailer.

While you're doing all that...  In as much as you've been on an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule 4+ weeks without a therapeutic response... Getting your 25(OH)D tested is a MUST... "Tuning" this regimen is also in order...

Some suggestions include:
  • Cut the calcium intake
  • Bump the magnesium intake to 1000 mg/day...  Just make sure you take magnesium citrate, magnesium lactate, or magnesium glycinate... These magnesium salts have a bioavailability around 80-90%... Magnesium oxide bioavailability is down less than 10% and it acts as a laxative at doses like this.
Take care and keep us posted,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Mar 7th, 2013 at 9:32am
After doing 20k of vit. D3 along with the fish oil and calcium after 1 month my D3-25 level is at 52 up from 29 and my calcium is at 9.1 which is down from 9.8

I've missed a few days here and there and have found taking the combination of D3, Fish Oil and Calcium really hard on my stomach. I've tried to at least take the D3 daily, but have been a bit sporadic with the Fish Oil and Calcium. I'm going to give it another go and try taking all 3 again on a regular basis. Is it ok to split it up during the day rather than all at once after dinner? Say, take the FO or Calcium in the morning with breakfast and then the D3 at dinner?

Also, should I increase my D3 by adding a 50k loading one a week?

Since I've started the treatment at the beginning of Feb I've had about 10 days where I've experienced a headache that required some treatment such as Imitrex pill or NS, however I would say the intensity has not been as severe.  I just got a 25 lpm regulator for my O2 as using O2 at 15max didn't appear to have any impact.  I'll try the 25 one when I get my next headache.

Any other advise would be appreciated.
Thanks, Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why. UPDATE
Post by 9thNerve on Mar 7th, 2013 at 7:01pm
Update on Regimen.
I have been doing the 1.2.3. since mid Jan.
I have had my D3 levels checked regularly.
Initial (having been on 10,000iu daily for several months prior to initiateing the protocol) was 64ng/nl. 
2nd testing a month later was 110ng/nl (this was with the 50,000iu weekly bump and 15,000iu daily). Dropped down to 15,000 for 4-5 days, then 10,000iu for a week; re-tested because I needed labs done. Still up there at 103ng/nl. Goal is 80-90.
My head is a complicated problem :
-Glossopharyngeal neuralgia beginning 3 years ago resulting in subsequent constant daily "migraines" (r/o hemicraniumcontiuum/cluster/etc,etc)
-had microvascular nerve decompression of trashed 9th nerve in Sept 2011. Cont to have horrific headaches almost daily.
Have tried MANY meds.
Met with Batch to try O2 and hyperventilating. This led to no relief of headaches and increased pain.
Now continuing with the D3 regimen.
No change in frequency of symptoms/frequency of headaches despite long term persistant elevated D3 levels.
Here's where it gets a twist.
SO Batch suggested I was acidotic, needed to neutralize my blood for better absorption.
Despite doing the baking soda, alka seltzer, lemonade four times a day, my most recent labwork indicated I am metabolically acidotic.
But here's the deal : the 2 meds I am on for the nerve pain  to try to manage THAT awful pain cause ACIDOSIS. So, I am trying to eat the neutralizing diet and lemonade. We will see what happens next blood check. But the meds some of you are on could be impacting the efficacy of the D3 regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Globi on Mar 7th, 2013 at 7:15pm

Batch wrote on Mar 1st, 2013 at 2:00pm:
Enli,

Understand the need to have a break...  Regarding 25(OH)D lab testing, have you checked out ZRT Labs at the Vitamin D Council web site? 

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

$65 and no Rx required... 

No charge with an Rx...  See below:

ZRT Laboratory will courtesy bill the following insurance companies as an out-of-network provider:

    Original Medicare Part B
    Medicare Advantage Plans
    TRICARE
    Cigna Healthcare
    Humana
    Medical Mutual

What information do I need to submit to ZRT along with my sample in order to bill my insurance?

You will need to send the following along with your sample:
  • Legibly signed laboratory order with applicable diagnosis code(s)
  • Date of birth
  • Physician’s full printed name, address, and NPI number
  • Legible front & back copy of primary insurance card
  • Signed & dated ZRT Insurance Authorization Form (included in kit)
It's all done through the mail... 

They'll send you the home blood spot test kit and return mailer.

While you're doing all that...  In as much as you've been on an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule 4+ weeks without a therapeutic response... Getting your 25(OH)D tested is a MUST... "Tuning" this regimen is also in order...

Some suggestions include:
  • Cut the calcium intake
  • Bump the magnesium intake to 1000 mg/day...  Just make sure you take magnesium citrate, magnesium lactate, or magnesium glycinate... These magnesium salts have a bioavailability around 80-90%... Magnesium oxide bioavailability is down less than 10% and it acts as a laxative at doses like this.
Take care and keep us posted,

V/R, Batch


With all respect. Post smaller.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:26pm

Globi wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 7:15pm:
With all respect. Post smaller.

With all respect, " <ctl> - " if it looks too big to you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Globi on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:37pm

Brew wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:26pm:

Globi wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 7:15pm:
With all respect. Post smaller.

With all respect, " <ctl> - " if it looks too big to you.



Almost all about this subject seems very large.....

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jenga on Mar 7th, 2013 at 9:43pm
Hi Batch,

I am 31 years old male and episodic for 12 years. my next cycle will come in october this year. I am planning to try this regimen as you suggested;
--------------------------------------------------------
Omega 3 Fish Oil - 2000 to 2400 mg/day (EPA 360
                            mg/day, DHA 240 mg/day)
Vitamin D3 *        - 10,000 IU/day
Calcium **           - 500 mg/day (calcium citrate preferred)
Magnesium           - 400 mg/day (magnesium citrate
                                    or magnesium gluconate)
Vitamin K2 ***     - 120 mcg/day
Vitamin A ****     - 900 mcg (3,000 IU) for men and
                           - 700 mcg (2,333 IU) for women
Zinc                     - 10 mg/day
Boron                   -   1 mg/day
---------------------------------------------------------
and before starting I will have 25(OH)D test done.

here is the question;
What is the right time to start this regimen?
just now or some time before the cycle or at the beginning of the cycle or what?

and any further suggestions would be appreciated...

thanks a lot for everything,
jenga

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 7th, 2013 at 11:43pm

Globi wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:37pm:
Almost all about this subject seems very large.....

Larger than life itself, it seems.

Do the regimen or don't. I don't really care one way or the other. But don't you dare try to undermine something you know very little about.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Globi on Mar 8th, 2013 at 5:09am

Brew wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 11:43pm:

Globi wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:37pm:
Almost all about this subject seems very large.....

Larger than life itself, it seems.

Do the regimen or don't. I don't really care one way or the other. But don't you dare try to undermine something you know very little about.


I don't undermine anything. It's just irritating to see the same story in EVERY topic in BIG letters.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:56am
So start your own forum and make your own rules.

Sheesh.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:49am
Hey Jenga,

Good question...  For some reason, and we don't know how or why, vitamin D3 has a tendency to mess up the cluster headache biological clock and calendar.

Accordingly, I'd say start this regimen as soon as you get your lab test for 25(OH)D... and I would try to get this lab test as soon as possible.

It turns out 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is a good maintenance dose to prevent cluster headache.  The average 25(OH)D response to a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day is ~85 ng/mL but it can take upwards of three months to reach this serum concentration.

After two years of studying the health benefits of vitamin D3 therapy at the doses we take to prevent cluster headache, I've come to the conclusion my wife and I would be taking it even if I didn't have cluster headache and my wife wasn't a migraineur.

In other words, once you realize the potential health benefits made possible by taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, the rationale for staying on this regimen is a no-brainer...

For starters, the incidence of colds, flu and other viral infections drops significantly as this regimen turbocharges our immune system's T Cells. 

For a complete list of health benefits gained by having a regular regimen of vitamin D3 as well as the increased risks associated with a vitamin D3 deficiency, see the following link:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

It's an eye-opener...

The bottom line is simple as I see it...  If you start this regimen now, the odds of sailing through your next regularly scheduled CH cycle pain free are very high...

I hope this helps...  and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Mar 8th, 2013 at 11:04am
Being that my post was before the post by globi I'm posting again.

Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1309 - Yesterday at 9:32am      After doing 20k of vit. D3 along with the fish oil and calcium after 1 month my D3-25 level is at 52 up from 29 and my calcium is at 9.1 which is down from 9.8

I've missed a few days here and there and have found taking the combination of D3, Fish Oil and Calcium really hard on my stomach. I've tried to at least take the D3 daily, but have been a bit sporadic with the Fish Oil and Calcium. I'm going to give it another go and try taking all 3 again on a regular basis. Is it ok to split it up during the day rather than all at once after dinner? Say, take the FO or Calcium in the morning with breakfast and then the D3 at dinner?

Also, should I increase my D3 by adding a 50k loading one a week?

Since I've started the treatment at the beginning of Feb I've had about 10 days where I've experienced a headache that required some treatment such as Imitrex pill or NS, however I would say the intensity has not been as severe.  I just got a 25 lpm regulator for my O2 as using O2 at 15max didn't appear to have any impact.  I'll try the 25 one when I get my next headache.

Any other advise would be appreciated.
Thanks, Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 8th, 2013 at 12:56pm
Hey Mark,

Thanks for the update and your lab results for 25(OH)D.  Your increase in serum 25(OH)D concentration is good, but at 52 ng/mL, it's still below the therapeutic response range of 60 to 110 ng/mL, or "green zone" where nearly all CH'ers have experienced a favorable response to this regimen.  Adding a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week should help in elevating your 25(OH)D into the green zone.

As far as when to take this regimen or splitting it up... do what works best for you.  Taking the vitamin D with the largest meal of the day is the only rule that makes sense... You can split or take the other supplements in this regimen at any time.

If you think it's the fish oil, the calcium or a combination of the two that are causing the upset tummy... skip one or the other for a few days to see which is the real culprit... Once you determine which of these two supplements is causing the problems, split the dose over two meals.

Hope this helps.  Please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cyclist7531 on Mar 8th, 2013 at 5:40pm
Batch, appreciate the advice. I'll try the loading dose 1x/week and then request a retest in 1 month.  I'll play with the fish oil and calcium, but will continue to take the D3 at dinner which hasn't given me any stomach issues.

Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Globi on Mar 8th, 2013 at 6:18pm

Brew wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:56am:
So start your own forum and make your own rules.

Sheesh.



So normal comments are not possible here?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Globi on Mar 8th, 2013 at 6:34pm
@ Batch

You post big because you are vision impaired? I was told....  Then i am sorry to commend on that. I did not know.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:51pm

Globi wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 6:18pm:
So normal comments are not possible here?

Normal comments are welcome here. The size of the typeface has no bearing on normality.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Globi on Mar 8th, 2013 at 9:50pm

Brew wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:51pm:

Globi wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 6:18pm:
So normal comments are not possible here?

Normal comments are welcome here. The size of the typeface has no bearing on normality.



That was not the base of my comment. It constantly repeating is and was more the problem. I've had the ONS operation. Imagine that i tell people here and in every topic that is the solution. Be careful in what you say. That is my message.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by horsegirl on Mar 9th, 2013 at 12:37pm
I did the same thing on print size and felt like a idiot, anyways , I told you people could be rude here, but if you think about it most of us are in lots of pain with little sleep, so go figure, . Actualy batches post are the only ones I can read comfortably. My question is sense they treat vit d toxcisty with steroids it makes me wonder if I was able to take in the vit d I was taking . sense i was on steroid for last five weeks,  my doctor wont order the lab test to check my level so  i'm going to order a mail one.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Mar 9th, 2013 at 2:08pm
Wow...thinking everyone should take a DEEP breathe here and start over. Lots of chippin about nothing.

This is a supposed to be a blog, not a "pick on" site.

Why are we wasting effort on non-constructive (unless we want to look at the remarks as "entertainment") comments ?

Lets get back to business, folks.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.

(And I agree, vit D therapy is complex and there is a fine line about safety. Thats why you do the lab tests, folks. They actually use Vit D to kill rodents in orchards, just fyi. And in super high doses, it is toxic)



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Markmitch on Mar 11th, 2013 at 10:12am
I tried the D3 and fish oil and after 4 weeks I have not seen any change.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 11th, 2013 at 10:16am
Hey Mark,

Thanks for the update...  Hang in there... the odds are still in your favor this regimen will start working for you...  A few CH'ers have taken as long as two months before experiencing a favorable response.

How much vitamin D3 are you taking and have you had the 25(OH)D lab test?  If so, what were the results?  I assume you're also taking the vitamin D3 cofactors: magnesium, zinc, vitamin A, vitamin K2 (MK-7) and boron.  These are all very important.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Mar 11th, 2013 at 6:41pm
So Here's is a very unexpected result.

First some background. I've been a CH head since 2005, originally episodic then chronic from 2007 (which is when I took Verapamil for the first time during a cycle). I started taking the D3 regimen in July 2012 when I was going through a high cycle and the results were amazing, there was an almost immediate downturn in the hits and after less than a week I was completely PF. I had a blood test done in September 2012 returning a result of 78nmol/L which I thought was perfect so remained on a maintenance dose of 5000iu D3/day with all the co factors as recomended. I remained PF for 3 months after that and at the same time weaned off the verapamil and litium chronic cocktail that I had been taking.

In January this year I moved from Christchurch to Auckland and into the worst cycle I have experienced since 2006. The hits were completely unpredictable, occuring any time of the day or night and, worst of all, my old fallbacks ergotomine and energy drinks had limited effect. My first reaction was to increase the D3 intake to 10 000iu/day thinking that my blood concentration had dropped below the threshold. After weathring this for a few weeks I went for a blood test and got a script for Verapamil to get me through until I could figure out what was happenning. The good thing is that going back onto Verap at 480mg/day stopped the beast almost in his tracks and I have been pf now for 8 days. The interesting thing is that I got the test results today and the 25 Hydroxy Vitamin D level is showing up at a level >375 nmol/L against a New Zealand optimal level of between 50 and 150 nmol/L. My magnesium level is also showing at 1.01mmol/L against a recomended max of 1.0 mmol/L.

Comments are welcomed.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 12th, 2013 at 12:44am
Hey Wayne,

Thanks for the update.  The normal reference range for 25(OH)D here in the US and most other Nations is 30 to 100 ng/mL, (75 to 250 nmol/L), so your 25(OH)D serum concentration at 375 nmol/L is higher than normal and above that where most CH'ers go pain free.  The target 25(OH)D serum concentration is 85 ng/mL, (202.5 nmol/L).  Clearly your 25(OH)D serum concentration wasn't the problem.

Your 25(OH)D levels will drop rapidly from 375 nmol/L just by stopping vitamin D3 intake for a few weeks.

The serum concentration of 25(OH)D is just a biological marker...  We think the important vitamin D3 metabolite responsible for preventing cluster headache is 1,25(OH)2D3, calcitriol.  The metabolism of 25(OH)D to calcitriol at the cellular level requires vitamin A at the required dietary allowance (RDA)...

I recall your post about moving from from Christchurch to Auckland and the return of your cluster headaches...  I'm not sure if the move had anything to do with the recurrence  of your cluster headaches...

That said, if you've been taking vitamin A, it's more likely a change in your metabolism due to a change in diet, a change in the supplements or some other related environmental factor that's responsible for the recurrence of your cluster headaches. 

A low pH is the most frequent culprit.  Cutting out gluten, sugars and cutting back on red meat may help.  The GOMBS diet is a good idea.  Eating a handful of walnuts and almonds a day is a good start.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Shakey on Mar 13th, 2013 at 4:46pm
Hi!

Here's my experience with the regimen so far. I've already consulted batch via pm at the start.

I am on a prolonged cycle from mid December 2012. The usual cycle for me lasts around 4 weeks and comes in once, last three years twice, per year. I use 02 at home with great success and imitrex at work when redbull or coffee doesn't work. Most of my attacks occur in the evening, almost never during sleep and rarely in the morning or early in the day. 1 - max 2 per day.

So, I started the regimen 14 days ago with the nearly advised dosing strategy: 10000 d3, 600mg calcium, 200mg magnesium, 2400mg fish oil, 15mg zinc, 90 mcg K2 + a carrot + juice / at the largest meal :-)

After a few days I started feeling generally little better, but I began getting attacks at 2pm at work; they weren't severe, since I could chew them off with red-bull and/or coffee, but I had to use two imitrex injections at work. At the same time evening attacks very reduced to 50%. it has been like this for 10 days.

I increased the dose to 15000 d3 + took a loading dose of 50000 yesterday and I finally got the lab tests in today after waiting for far too long. It's 20 mcg/l which is equivalent to ng/ml. At the time of the test, I was already within a few days of the regimen.

I plan on continuing the regimen with 15000/day and 50000/week and getting a lab test at the end of the month to see how the levels changed.

any other advice?

Thanks,
Jure




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 13th, 2013 at 7:38pm
Hey Jure,

Thanks for the detailed update.  I like the carrot and juice...  Good idea...  Add a handful of walnuts or almonds a day and you're have two of the other great natural nutrients that help prevent CH.

Bump your magnesium intake to 1000 mg/day split in half morning and eventing.

Take care and thanks again,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on Mar 13th, 2013 at 9:36pm
three weeks on the regimen ,  still no change, in fact things are getting worse.  I finally got a script for my D levels though and i will get them checked on friday..  My doc was looking at me like i was an idiot thought.  saying, there is some talk that vitamin D can affect migraines, but no evidence to suggest anything of the same for clusters.  I am going on no sleep, so I almost told her to shut the @#$% up.!!!!  I still have a little hope,  but its fading fast.   :(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Mar 13th, 2013 at 9:57pm
As always, thanks for the feedback Batch. I don't think that it was so much the move to Auckland that triggered it as much as it was the change in weather. I moved from a comparatively mild Christchurch straight into the hottest summer Auckland has had in years so I suspect that it was the temperature change that did me in.

I am definitely getting enough vitamin A, but will grab myself some walnuts and give it a go.

Cheers,

Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 14th, 2013 at 11:05am
Hey Wayne,

You may be on to something with the increased ambient temperatures associated with your move from Christchurch to Auckland. 

It's just a guess at this point, and this is way over my head...  but temperatures can effect the enzymatic activity of 25(OH)D-1α-hydroxylase, (CYP27B1), the enzyme responsible for hydroxylating (metabolizing) 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), the active hormonal vitamin D3 metabolite.  In short, higher skin temperatures could result in less 1,25(OH)2D3 being produced.

The other likely possibility is your move has exposed you to a new class of allergens (virus, bacteria, mold spores and pollen), that flourish at higher ambient temperatures and this is causing your immune system's T Cells to consume 1,25(OH)2D3 at higher rates leaving less of this active hormone to act as a CH preventative.

This is a long shot... but adding a little more zinc may help as zinc is essential in the vitamin D receptor binding activity along with vitamin A (retinol).  Slurping down a half dozen oysters on the half-shell should provide more than sufficient zinc to test this theory...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuh on Mar 14th, 2013 at 11:35am
Wiki can be so convenient sometimes. Here's a link to trigeminal nerve distribution and function:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigeminal_nerve#Sensory_pathways

If you look at sensory branch commentary, central anatomy and pain sensation (towards the bottom) it should answer some of your questions regarding temperature, pressure, smell etc.

There is also a link towards the bottom of the page which displays the fine branches of the secondary nerves. In other words, it clearly shows where the so called "beast" likes to hang out.

Hope you find this useful...


Peace Of Mind

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Mar 14th, 2013 at 3:18pm
Thanks Chuh, people have posted a pic of that evil nerve a few times on the board. Gives you a much better understanding of why people have teeth pulled, get glasses, do sinus surgery....all the little links to that damned nerve! ;)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 9thNerve on Mar 14th, 2013 at 4:05pm
Hard to believe how one tiny little nerve can cause such havoc in our heads??

Mine is the 9th cranial nerve its got all my neurologists scratching theirs . Fortunately, I am , at least right now (after battling this for 3 years), beginning to find solutions to the 4 different types of head pains I have.

I believe the D3, Zonegren and who knows if I have cycled out, have benefited the Cluster headache.
Just starting Baclofen that I hope will help with the nerve pain as tegretol,gabapentin,etc not tolerated with severe side effects.

Anyway, its challenging.
I appreciate this website for all its support!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 15th, 2013 at 2:59am

Wayne wrote on Mar 13th, 2013 at 9:57pm:
As always, thanks for the feedback Batch. I don't think that it was so much the move to Auckland that triggered it as much as it was the change in weather. I moved from a comparatively mild Christchurch straight into the hottest summer Auckland has had in years so I suspect that it was the temperature change that did me in.


It certainly has been a pretty hot and dry summer here in Auckland. We've just had a drought declared for the entire North Island, so it's time to practice rain dances.

However I've escaped any sign of CH and my migraines have now dropped off to around once a month or so, so the heat hasn't affected my headaches. Since I work during the week in Wellington (500km / 300 miles south) I get to experience a temperature change of about 4C (8F) every 3.5 days.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuh on Mar 17th, 2013 at 9:45pm
This link for those who care to read a good explanation of the pros and cons of vitamin D supplementation:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

FYI, I am not an MD, PhD, registered dietitian, or pharmacologist.
What I am is a 15 yr CH sufferer who had to give up his work towards a PhD in exercise physiology/human performance due to the debilitating nature of our condition.

Batch's original post on this subject was very inspirational to me. But, I think we all need to look around the woods before we get tied down to one tree.

As I mentioned to Batch in a PM, I intuitively came to some conclusions, and am working diligently toward formulating and confirming proofs that will benefit us all.

We aren't supposed to give medical advice at the risk of practicing without a licence so I'll just say this; I plan to be very careful about what goes in and out of me in the future.

I also don't want to treat the symptoms, painful as they are, if I know I can remedy the condition.


Peace Of Mind

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Mar 18th, 2013 at 1:47am

Chuh wrote on Mar 17th, 2013 at 9:45pm:
This link for those who care to read a good explanation of the pros and cons of vitamin D supplementation:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

FYI, I am not an MD, PhD, registered dietitian, or pharmacologist.
What I am is a 15 yr CH sufferer who had to give up his work towards a PhD in exercise physiology/human performance due to the debilitating nature of our condition.

Batch's original post on this subject was very inspirational to me. But, I think we all need to look around the woods before we get tied down to one tree.

As I mentioned to Batch in a PM, I intuitively came to some conclusions, and am working diligently toward formulating and confirming proofs that will benefit us all.

We aren't supposed to give medical advice at the risk of practicing without a licence so I'll just say this; I plan to be very careful about what goes in and out of me in the future.

I also don't want to treat the symptoms, painful as they are, if I know I can remedy the condition.


Peace Of Mind


Lots of the informations are not based on real science, but are old myths.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jenga on Mar 18th, 2013 at 7:52pm
Hi again,

I got my lab test results today for 25(OH)D and some other tests. here are the results;
-----------------------------------------------
25(OH)D                    = 11,5 ng/ml   (25-80)
Ca                             = 10,3 mg/dl   (8,6-10,0)
Mg                            = 2,15 mg/dl   (1,58-2,55)
Zn                             = ?? - still waiting
thyroid stimulant (TSH) = 1,72 uIU/ml (0,27-4,2)
Vitamin B12                = 662 pg/ml    (191-663)
Folic acid                    = 12,3 ng/ml   (4,6-18,7)
------------------------------------------------

I want to start this regimen as soon as possible but I can't find a vitamin D3 form which contains 5000 IU in my country.
Tablet forms has a maximum of 1000 IU per tablet.
Oral drop forms has a minimum of 50000 IU per drop(15 ml).
Both has active ingredient of cholecalciferol.

Should I take;
10 tablets!! a day or
1 oral drop each 5 days?

please advise,
Jenga

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 19th, 2013 at 10:37am
Hey Jenga,

Thanks for the post.  Please see my PM to you.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Markmitch on Mar 20th, 2013 at 5:03pm
2 years ago my doctor put me on 1000 mg D3 then 8 months later he upped it to 2000 mg a day well recently he tested me again and 0 Vitamin D showed up on my tests. I upped it to 10,000 because of this site and I will be tested again on April 4th I will post the results as soon as I get them.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 20th, 2013 at 7:06pm
Hey Markmitch,

Good move bumping your vitamin D3 intake to 10,000 IU/day.  Be sure to take the cofactors along with the vitamin D3 and to take it with the largest meal of the day...

Regarding your doctor...  It's unfortunate but too many physicians are either too conservative or sadly lacking in experience treating a vitamin D3 deficiency.

You wouldn't be the first cluster headache sufferer who had to provide continuing medical education to his or her doctor...

Take care, hang in there and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jeannie on Mar 26th, 2013 at 3:06pm
Hi Batch!   Hope you are well!   Is krill oil an acceptable substitute for the fish oil? (I'm guessing it is)  I'm still getting sick to my stomach from the fish burps and am finding the krill doesn't cause the same problem. 

Thanks for all you do for us around here. 

Jeannie

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clusterman59 on Mar 26th, 2013 at 6:21pm
Hey Everyone in Clusterville!!
Just an update and i'm going on 147 days CH free on the regimen and it has changed my life Pete!
After about 38 years of chronic CH I never thought this could happen and am so happy and so very proud of Pete Batch for his tireless work on the regimen and helping so many CHers become pain free or helped by the regimen.
WHAT A BLESSING!!.... ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on Mar 27th, 2013 at 8:46am
that is soo awesome.  what a lifechanger!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by enli on Mar 28th, 2013 at 2:42am
About 70 days on regimen and no noticeable change in CH patterns or intensity.  Cut calcium in half and added magnesium.  Have cut back on D3 to 15,000 per day (no weekly super dose).  If noticeable changes were evident, I could see having D3 tested, but O2 is more important right now.  Will keep the faith until insurance starts next year or there is significant change in CH's or I cash out my 401k before BO gets his hands on it. Weather not cooperating, still waiting to start fishing.  Enli (dog, but don't tell her) refuses to go until water temp is 68 degrees!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on Mar 28th, 2013 at 8:19am
Batch,

I have to ask you some questions about the regimen.
This is going to be long, so feel free to take as much time as you need and draw from this post, any parts you see as relevant. I make all information available for this purpose.

I am doing so, on the forum as this discussion may be of use to others. As a moderator on the Aussie CH site, I often see mal-adapted versions of your regimen coming through.

I am guilty of the same thing, I took parts of the regimen that appeared to work for me, tweaked it here and there, then got slack over time and my CH is back with a vengeance. It may be for any reason that my CH is back.
It may be a spontaneous flare-up for me, but in 34 years of chronic (IHS diagnosed) CH, I did not experience a reduction in severity, or frequency of attacks as significant as I had, by using my feeble attempts at adapting your regimen. Imigran injections expired due to non-use, unprecedented - that's how effective it can be.

I am here to attempt to source local ingredients and localise the regimen, based on what we have available, on-shelf in Australia.

My Vitamin 25 Hydroxy-Vitamin D (25 hydroxy cholecalciferol) level in Jan 2012 was 19nmol/L, (from a lab reported desirable range of 60-160nmol/L.)

This was taken before beginning any Vit D treatment.

In JAN 2012 after this test result, I commenced taking 10,000iU of D3 "Ostelin", 5000iU in the AM, 5000iU in the PM. With food to aid absorption, or uptake.

(Apologies for the size and quality of pictures, I just learned how to take, resize, enhance and host them for this. Maybe right-click and select "view image", then CTRL+ for zoom, if they are too small to see.)

Ostelin D3 1000iU gel/oil capsules as cholecalciferol:

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Regardless of CH, I needed to get my D3 levels up and Ostelin was my GPs preferred method, over "megadoses" of 250,000iU, that are routinely prescribed for Vit D deficiencies here. Like this stuff:

1000iU per drop, megadoses:
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Within days to weeks I noticed almost immediate improvement, but could not say for sure whether Vit D had done anything directly for CH, as I was not suffering too badly at the time. I noted immune system benefits from D3, helping me to recover from Prednisolone and keeping many a cold at bay. I have not had a cold since and my health has improved.

I stuck with JUST the D3, for some time.
Later adding in Centrum, fishoil and caltrate.
Centrum details:
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Swisse high strength wild fishoil details:
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Caltrate details:
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Late in 2012, I was admitted to ER with severe lower right abdominal pain. Drs there suspected Kidney stones, and although no scans were performed, they wrote a report stating that I had probably passed a small Kidney, or ureteric stone. Previous renal USS had showed no anomalies, other than a 3-4 cm benign cyst on my left Kidney - unremarkable.

They asked what I was drinking and many other lines of inquiry. I forgot to mention D3 @ 10,000iU per day, as a listed medication. There was speculation that I may have formed a calcium type stone in the Kidney.  I had renal USS conducted again, after this event, all was normal and unremarkable.

I (perhaps incorrectly) suspected some involvement of the Vit D in possible stone forming. I went back to my GP who said 1000iU, was the recommended dose and my GP left it at that. I tapered from 10,000iU, over about 2 months, back to 1000iU. I removed Calcium supplement, under suspicion of stone-forming, also because calcium appears not to be so good for people with GI reflux, taking proton-pump inhibitors, like Nexium (Estomeprazole) as I do. Stomach acid production (I understand) increases in order to break down the calcium. So for this reason, the calcium was dropped.

No proof was ever offered of stone-forming and I strongly suspect the Docs were wrong. I have since found that the lower right abdominal pain was more than likely an intestinal spasm, caused by Coloxyl and have changed to Movicol, with great benefit.

I had maintained 2 X 1000iU D3, 1 X Centrum, 6 X fishoil per day.

My CURRENT Vitamin 25 Hydroxy-Vitamin D (25 hydroxy cholecalciferol) level in MAR 2013 is 79nmol/L, (from a lab reported desirable range of 60-160nmol/L.) GPs still recommend a D3 maintenance dose of 1000iU to me.

I have ramped up the D3, back to 10,000iU.
I am still taking 6 X fishoil (3 doses X 2) and 1 X Centrum, daily. Attempts to start Caltrate have caused GI reflux.
I have also added Salvital (do you have this in the US?) as an attempt to replicate home made lemonade. Salvital is my attempt at introducing some sodium bicarbonate, citric acid, magnesium. It seems to work as a urinary systemic alkalinizer, fixing urinary tract infections. The bicarb seems to help the head somehow, I can only speculate, but suspect it is acting on arterial structures as a pH buffer, in some way or other.
I discovered Salvital's benefits before I saw your regimen.

Salvital panels:
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Salvital panels left:
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Salvital panels right:
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Salvital Ingredients: Sugar, Mineral salt (500), food acids (296, 334), mineral salt (518), lemon flavor.

I can't make Lemonade at all, let alone every day.
Hence the Salvital...

CH is back on, I am ramping up the D3.
Tweaking the regimen is fine by me, but I am a bit lost.
I see merit in it and feel the positive benefits, I want to get it right this time, Batch.

I have read a lot of your posts and attached studies, pdf's and online responses. Some of the Science is hard to grasp, I never anticipated vitamin D studies becoming so cascade-like, with a push-pull effect, or variable in nearly every user parameter of the regimen. It's complicated, indeed.

Many people stand to benefit here, or I should say, they already have. I direct enquirers about the regimen to your thread, but readers come back confused on localising the info.

I hope to meet somewhere in the middle, so the regimen is of use to Aussies, with what they have at hand.

At the significant risk of sounding stupid here - What am I doing wrong?

Can you guide me through a version of the regimen with what we have here in Oz?

A lot of questions, I know.
It's a lot to ask...
Please take your time, Batch.

Cheers, Ben.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 28th, 2013 at 10:53am
Hay Jeannie,

Thank you for the kind words... but you and all the other CH'ers using this regimen need to thank the person you see in the mirror every morning...

The growing success of the anti-inflammatory regimen as a cluster headache preventative has been a team effort.  It wouldn't have been possible without a forum like this and the participation of so many CH'ers willing to share their response to this regimen. It's been a rapid learning process for all of us and we're not done learning how to make this regimen work even more effectively.

Krill oil should work just fine...  What you're looking for are the two primary Omega 3 fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) at 360 mg/day and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) at 240 mg/day.  Several brands now offer "burpless" Omega 3 Fish Oil softgels...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 28th, 2013 at 1:05pm
Hey Ben,

You've asked some good questions so I'll give you my best answers...

Let's start with the basics...  A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 79 nmol/L (31.6 ng/mL) is too low to have a therapeutic effect as a CH preventative.

The 25(OH)D serum concentrations reported by CH'ers who have gone pain free on this regimen run in a range of 150 to 275 nmol/L, (60 to 110 ng/mL)

As you can see in the following chart, it will take the average CH'er 35 to 40 days to build the 25(OH)D serum concentration from 75 nmol/L up to 150 nmol/L at a vitamin D3 intake of 10,000 iU/day.

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You'll also notice that it will take a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day in order to maintain your 25(OH)D in the optimum therapeutic range to prevent CH.  10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 should also result in a 25(OH)D serum concentration in a stable equilibrium around 212.5 nmol/L, (85 ng/mL).

You can shave a week to 10 days off this time interval by using one of the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedules for at least a month then get a second 25(OH)D lab test... 

15,000 IU/day plus a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week has worked very effectively and it has been well tolerated.

Calcium, Omega 3 Fish Oil, and the vitamin D3 cofactors are also very essential parts of this regimen.  The following list of supplements and doses provide the best CH preventative response:

Omega 3 Fish Oil - 2000 to 2400 mg/day (EPA 360
                            mg/day, DHA 240 mg/day)
Vitamin D3 *        - 10,000 IU/day
Calcium **           - 500 mg/day (calcium citrate preferred)
Magnesium           - 400 mg/day (magnesium citrate
                                    or magnesium gluconate)
Vitamin K2***     - 120 mcg/day (MK-7)
Vitamin A ****     - 900 mcg (3,000 IU) for men and
                           - 700 mcg (2,333 IU) for women
Zinc                     - 10 mg/day
Boron                   -   1 mg/day

You can find this list of supplements, suggested dosing, vitamin D3 dosing strategies, drug interactions and contraindications at the following link:

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Finding over-the-counter, non-prescription formulations of these vitamins and minerals in Australia is going to take some grunt work.  The goal is to find as many of these supplements at the right dose in a single tablet.  Clearly that isn't possible, but you should be able to get the daily regimen down to a minimum number of pills... 

Finding vitamin D3 softgels in the 5,000 IU/softgel is a problem in Australia.  Your social medicine has deemed doses this high must be controlled by prescription...  Getting that regulation changed is not in the cards so look for alternative sources over the Internet you think would clear Australian customs.

The obvious solution here is to pester the heck out of your PCP or neurologist until he or she prescribes a two or three month supply at 10,000 IU/day.  Once you find physicians willing to prescribe vitamin D3 at these concentrations and quantity, publish their contact information.

Here's a starter for that list...  Dr. Peter Lewis, MD.  Peter is an Integrative physician in Manley, NSW.  He's also a vitamin D3 Jedi Master and I know for a fact that he's aware vitamin D3 taken at the doses suggested in the anti-inflammatory regimen can prevent CH...  I've shared that information with him. You can find him at the following link: 

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Regarding the anti-inflammatory regimen and kidney stones...  Lots of good info on this topic available at the Vitamin D Council and Vitamin D Wiki at the following links:

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The guidance here is don't read just one report...  Peruse through enough of them and you'll see some interesting patterns...

The "Good Guys" who really understand the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3 and its cofactors frequently point out or comment on studies that were either poorly designed, used too low a vitmain D3 dose, didn't use the cofactors, or had a not so obvious big pharma bias to scare people away from taking vitamin D3 at therapeutic doses... i.e., 5,000 to 10,000 IU/day.

The following link discusses the role of vitamin K2 (MK-7) and magnesium in treating and preventing kidney stones.

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Hope this helps...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Shakey on Mar 28th, 2013 at 4:25pm
Hey, all!

Just a quick update.

It's been exactly 4 weeks since I started the regimen. I was taking 10000 D3 in the first two weeks, 15000 in the third week and 20000 in this last week. I also took two loading doses of 50000. I've been taking all the cofactors as well, bumped the magnesium to 800 in the last two weeks, unfortunately I cannot find K2 over 45mcg. I eat carrots and other vegetables for vitamin A. Sometimes I throw in some almonds and walnuts.

Lab test (done after just a couple of days on the regimen) showed 20 ng/ml. I did the test again two days ago, so I'll know the results sometime next week.

The changes I seemed to experience are: At first, I started getting hits in the afternoon and I developed constant shadows throughout the day, but there was a significant reduction in the intensity of the attacks. There were even three days without any attack, just shadows. Every day is different. For the last week or maybe less I am not getting any more hits in the afternoon but am getting them at around midnight every day. It seems the oxygen is working faster as well.

I feel like crap during the day at work mostly because of the intense shadows which I am afraid will develop into attacks, I drink a lot of small pots of coffee to get rid of them at least for an hour or so.

Don't get me wrong - there are changes in my cycle and there is significant reduction in the intensity of the attacks. They are different, not just by intensity but ... hard to explain. It's like attacks without the characteristic signs (pulsating vain, tearing, rise in inner temperature, etc). I just... want this to work so badly that it completely ruins my day when I wake up at the morning with that feeling in my head... you know what I am talking about, when you know the beast is still inside your head.

I will keep up with the dosing and am eagerly awaiting the lab results.

Let me just say at the end that I deeply respect every person on this forum (without knowing you in person), since most of you have had it way worse than I ever had. This cycle is mentally so difficult for me, mainly because I was expecting it to end after 1 month like it did for the past 12 years but it just keeps going on.

Thanks
Jure


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on Mar 28th, 2013 at 6:30pm
Thanks Batch,

I will peruse all the links closely, get some things moving here and report back.

Having slept on it, I realised that perhaps I should not have posted in the middle of so many attacks, for I answered my own question really - I hadn't followed the regimen to the letter.

The GP (MD) discouragement here for dosing up D3 is palpable. Without thought, they universally think it is worthless, if not dangerous and condemn it as an idea.
They think I am mad for trying.
I did tell my GP that I was aiming for over 200 nmol/L, He nearly fell off his chair. To no-one's surprise here, I suppose; he recommended that I maintain a figure <80 nmol/L. They also balked at raising my Calcium level, as it was well up in the range through diet alone.

Most GPs here are AMA members. (Australian Medical Association), a recent survey of registered GPs here indicated that in a majority of GP respondents - Litigation was their number 1 concern in clinical practice, over and above patient care or outcomes...
We are not traditionally a litigious society here, but the recent trend in suing your GP's ass off, has stopped all progressive thinking, put up a road block and left general medicine somewhere in the mid 90s.

So I will do what I have had to many times before, arm myself with facts and head back in there.
I did not let them discourage me from 20 years of CPE in CH.
I looked at this as exclusively a Vitamin issue, perhaps if I change my thinking a bit and look at it as a CH issue, I will refocus my efforts and be relentless once again in my pursuit of answers and CH relief. Nothing like 4-5 attacks per 24hrs at high pain levels to get me into gear. I hate Imigran.

Finding anything over 1000iU OTC here is near impossible (and can get expensive too.) Our government PBS (Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) only offer a D3 powder for use only in Osteoporosis, with very poor bioavailablity. I would have to bake D3 cakes using it as flour to get the required dosage up for use in CH...

However, I can get 'off-label' approvals for just about anything after having 70 odd drugs fail and being still an intractable CH case. If the hospital pharmacy can get it and the Prof (He remains open-minded), the drug approvals board and ethics committees see any possible merit, I will have it prescribed. They don't even have to see merit, just safety. Perhaps running this through those regulatory bodies here will wake them up to the regimen.

(These are the same people involved in clinical trial evaluation. If they won't run a wider trial on it, they will have to come back to my case for a check on efficacy and a conclusion as part of their approval process for "off-label" use in my case. Sneaky, indeed... This could be interesting, as the Adelaide Uni sits up and takes notice when something works in Headache conditions...) ;)

We do 1 man trials on drugs all the time, with clinical outcomes closely monitored. I will ask the Prof if he can set up a 1 man trial then, using my baseline bloods and consistent CH, we have a good place to start. Oh well, it's off to be a CH pioneer in my neck of the woods again. It's a lousy job, but someone's gotta do it!! ;D Haha!

Thanks Batch, once again the built in separation here from the Pharmacologist and the Nutraceutical meant I had overlooked my specialist as a D3 prescribing source.

Thanks so much for the local resource.
If I have any trouble here, it looks like I may have Peter Lewis to contact and move things along.

I loaded up on D3 dose last night, 5mls of that concentrate.
I will maintain the 10,000iU, whilst I plunder and pillage all the pharmacies for suitable ingredients.

I'm on it.

One more question - does everyone still need the Lemonade?

Cheers, Ben.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:55pm
Jure, Ben,

It appears you're both in the same boat trying to wrangle the needed supplements while the beast is hammering away...  I do know what that's like...

Running gun battles with physicians who balk at prescribing vitamin D3 at therapeutic doses doesn't help either...  They'll learn someday... so it's up to us to provide the CME on the efficacy of vitamin D3 they need...

The only thing I can suggest at this point is be patient, use oxygen therapy at 25 liters/minute to abort the attacks or use a triptan if necessary... and bump the magnesium to 1000 mg/day.

The lemonade and calcium citrate buffer is more a diagnostic and short term aid for a low arterial/systemic pH...  If there's a detectable decrease in the frequency, severity or duration of your CH using this buffer, the longer term solution is a GOMBS diet with a hand full of Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans/Berries and Seeds a day.

Take care, hang in there and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on Mar 29th, 2013 at 6:02am
I'm on it Batch.

I think Pr Rolan is in for a 1 man clinical trial of the D3 regimen!
Will be if I get my way, he can hardly knock me back at this point. Thanks to your research, I can prove safety and get some trial action started. Efficacy is the proof in the pudding. I will do my best to get the regimen correct, Oz-adapted and into me ASAP.

Thanks Batch - JeD3 master.

Means a lot to me and a lot of people I hear from.

Cheers, D3 Grasshopper - Ben. ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AussieBrian on Mar 29th, 2013 at 6:51am
Just a thought, Ben, but what they call lemonade in America is very different to lemonade here in Oz.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on Mar 29th, 2013 at 6:16pm
Hence, my use of Salvital as an attempt at a pH buffer and my question to Batch about his Lemonade, Brian.
I took a semi-educated guess, figuring Salvital could not do me any harm in trying.

Salvital contains:
Sodium Carbonate, an acidity regulator. (As Mineral salt 500)
Malic Acid - (296).
Tartaric acid (334)
Magnesium sulphate or Epsom salts (518)

I did read his posts and realise the difference between the on-shelf stuff here and the gear both Batch and my Grandma used to make.

Similar to the recipe Batch posted:

Quote:
I make my own lemonade and sweeten it with Splenda™ an artificial sweetener to cut down on the carbohydrates.  I use a ratio of one part lemon juice to 4 or 5 parts water and one part Splenda™.  If you don't have Splenda you can use another sweetener or sugar then adjust to taste.

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Although far from expert in the complex chemistry behind all of this, my intuition said to give Salvital a shot as a systemic pH buffer. I was once a qualified Cert 3 Cellarhand working in wineries in WA (where Cellarhands actually make the wine, whilst said Winemaker smells, sips, sloshes, spits, and postulates...)

I helped do a lot of crushing, racking, barreling, testing and 3am starts to keep the precious and unpredictable wine within spec. So I had some basic applied chemistry training around Malolactic fermentation, general wine transfer and handling, but it's mostly forgotten these days and perhaps irrelevant to the regimen. That's why I ask Batch.

I would make my own Lemonade, but the Lemons available in shops these days taste like wood, all fast grown with no real taste or goodies like the backyard variety used to have.
Lemon trees used to be in every second back yard here when I was a kid, but most have ripped them out now.

Batch seems to have rendered this point moot in my CH case anyway:
Quote:
The lemonade and calcium citrate buffer is more a diagnostic and short term aid for a low arterial/systemic pH...  If there's a detectable decrease in the frequency, severity or duration of your CH using this buffer, the longer term solution is a GOMBS diet with a hand full of Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans/Berries and Seeds a day.


I have moved over to bean salad, with onions, greens, mushrooms. I eat blueberries, but have not found seeds that my system can handle yet, apart from some found in wholemeal breads I sometimes eat.

Just ramping up my D3 again, trying to read up on all the info Batch has given me, sourcing all the Oz ingredients and liaising with my specialist to see if I can do this on the books as a one-man clinical trial.

Have a good Easter break Brian!
Don't have too many beers mate!

Cheers, Ben.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on Apr 2nd, 2013 at 3:12pm
Batch,   I just got my D3 test results, and they are quite depressing.  After following the regimen for 7 wks, my vitamin D, 25OH, is 95ng/ml.  I say this is depressing, because I think this is right in the therapeutic range, and my clusters are going off the charts.  Worse every night, downhill fast. I am sad to say, I may be one of the 20 percent who is not responding to this therapy.  My question is,  Do you think I should stick with it for a while longer before I throw in the towel, is there a chance that trying to bring my levels a little higher might help?    

Sad, so sad 
thanks,
christine :'(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 2:06am
Hey Christine,

I'm sorry the anti-inflammatory regimen isn't working to prevent your CH just yet...  Do you still have oxygen therapy available to knock down/abort the CH attacks?

Yes, it's possible you're among the 20% who don't have a favorable response... 

That said, we're beginning to understand there is usually a reason or reasons why some CH'ers don't respond to this regimen...  so don't throw in the towel just yet...  There are also a lot of benefits to vitamin D3 therapy beyond preventing CH...

The general approach at this point involves "tuning" the regimen.  You've already elevated your 25(OH)D into the green zone so stick with your present dose of vitamin D3... 

Now we need to look at ways to ensure the 25(OH)D that's not being metabolized by the kidneys to maintain calcium homeostasis has everything it needs to be metabolized extrarenal (outside the kidneys) at the cellular level throughout the body... and brain to 1,25(OH)2D3, calcitriol.

This path of vitamin D3 metabolism is called the autocrin/paracrine route that enables genetic expression.  It requires vitamin A (retinol) to metabolize 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3 and more vitamin A in order to bind at a vitamin D3 receptor (VDR).

Viral and bacterial infections can also soak up available 1,25(OH)2D3 activating your immune system's T cells.  Have you had a cold, the flu or an allergic reaction over the last few weeks?

I realize this is so much mubo jumbo and that you want to know the time, not how to build a Swiss watch... so here's what's worked for other CH'ers who elevated their 25(OH)D into the green zone, but didn't experience a significant therapeutic effect...

1.  Quit the calcium supplements for a week or two.

2.  Increase the magnesium intake to 1000 IU/day.  Magnesium citrate or magnesium gluconate have much better bioavailability than magnesium oxide...

3.  Make sure you're taking vitamin A (retinol) at RDA...  ~ 700 mcg (2,333 IU) for women.

4.  A low systemic/arterial pH (too much acid) can also interfere with just about any CH preventative.  The steps you can take here include a change of diet to make your system more alkaline (less acid)... 

Cut back on red meat, cut out sugars, gluten and peanuts...  Eat a GOMBS diet with a handful of Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans/Berries and seeds a day. 

You can find more about the GOMBS diet at the following link:

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Walnuts and almonds make a great snack...

If these steps don't result in a favorable response in a couple weeks, ask you PCP for an endocrine panel of lab tests... 

If all that fails, there's nothing wrong taking verapamil or busting... As far as we can tell, they don't interfere with vitamin D3...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 7:14am
Thanks Batch,  you are the best.  I will keep with it, and follow your suggestions.  i have had an infection of some sort, (sinus) or cold, that just wont quit, all winter and its still kicking.  In fact, my blood test showed my Absolute Lymphocytes were too high, which indicates infection somewhere.  i already take verap, at 480, although, its not really helping anymore, like I said , things are sliding downhill very fast.  I cant bust, because I take anti convulsants, and they interfere with the effects.  I tried in the past, and no effect whatsoever.   Hopefully, they dont interfere with this protocol as well.  In fact , the only thing that has ever helped me at this stage, is powerful anti inflammatories, such as cafergot, or imitrex.  That is why I had high hopes for the D3 regimen.
     I have my O2, but waking up every 45 min all night long , is really starting to make me screw up my life.
     I will tweak my diet,  (I do love, love, love,  peanut butter) but I will kiss it goodbye, add the vitamins and see what happens, 

thanks again
Christine :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chad on Apr 4th, 2013 at 11:31am
I must thank you again Batch.  I had a small 19 day cycle which is my norm once a year.  With doing this D3 regimen at a lower intake as I have told in our PM's, I will say this has been the best cycle in the 20 years I have gotten CH.  Through this cycle I only took 5000 I.U. of D3, the magnesium (I used the oxide), the calcium citrate, fish oil, C, B12, Red Yeast Rice (for cholesterol).  I have been exercising like a maniac too as I am training for a Tough Mudder race in June.  The hits that did come through were easily aborted with O2 within 2 minutes each at 15LPM.  As you have said Batch, I was at the lower level of D3 intake on your scale and it proved to me even at lower levels it still did a LOT of good with managing this cycle.  If I was in agony, I would definitely increase that intake. 

Thanks again for your dedication and research on this wonderful treatment!

All the Best!

-Chad

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jp77 on Apr 10th, 2013 at 9:04am
This is my first post...I lurk on this site sometimes but haven't posted before, because I don't have CH--I have a different headache disorder called Hemicrania Continua. I just wondered if anyone has any information about whether this is effective for other types of headaches--especially other TACs (SUNCT, HC, or Paroxysmal Hemicrania). I figured it wouldn't hurt to try it,  but I was wondering if anyone has had success with it for other types of headaches.

I had my D3 levels tested last week (after being on the regimen for a couple of days) and they were at 67nmol (BTW, for anyone in the UK, the Birmingham NHS Trust does D3 tests by mail--very easy to do and less of a faff than trying to get your GP to order one!).

I'll let you know if this seems to work for me. I've been taking the recommended supplement dosages for about 8 days now--I feel like there's some improvement but not enough for me to go without my meds. I'm currently on 25mg Indomethacin twice a day. It's a wonder drug for me but I am a bit nervous about being on it long-term and would be happy to find an alternative. Every time I've tried to go off it the pain returns within hours of missing a dose.

Any info would be appreciated, and will keep you updated!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 10th, 2013 at 4:35pm
Hey JP,

Welcome to CH.com.  You've come to the right place.

Regarding your 25(OH)D serum concentration...  The normal reference range for 25(OH)D is 30 to 100 ng/mL, (75 to 250 nmol/L)...  Accordingly, 67 nmol/L, (26.8 ng/mL) is below the normal reference range...  i.e. you're vitamin D3 deficient...

As you can see in the following chart of the time course 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3 dose developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, your 25(OH)D serum concentration is down in the "red zone"

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You need to talk with your PCP or neurologist about vitamin D3 therapy.  Take along a copy of this post.

The online survey of CH'ers using the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, who had the 25(OH)D lab test while presenting with active CH before starting this regimen, had an average 25(OH)D serum concentration of 28.7 ng/mL, (71.75 nmol/L). 

CH'ers who experienced a favorable response to this regimen with a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH had an average 25(OH)D serum concentration of 81.4 ng/mL. (203.5 nmol/L).  This data is reflected in the color bands in the chart above.

Hemicrania Continua as a TAC, is a tough nut cousin of Cluster Headache and to date, I'm unaware of any people suffering from HC using the anti-inflammatory regimen as a preventative...  That said, there are well over a dozen migraineurs who have posted, PM'd or sent me email that they're successfully using this regimen to prevent their migraine headaches.

In case you haven't seen it... you can find the complete list of supplements used in this regimen along with doses, vitamin D3 dosing strategy, drug interactions and contraindications at the following link:

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Please keep us posted... If the anti-inflammatory regimen is effective in preventing your hemicrania continua, you'll have added an entirely new dimension to it's use...

Take care,

V/R, Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jp77 on Apr 11th, 2013 at 3:33pm
Thanks so much for all this great information! I am in the UK, but I've managed to track down equivalents for pretty much all of the supplements you mention (except for the K2 and Boron, although it looks like I could get those on Amazon if I need to). I'll follow your recommended schedule and let you know how I get on. I would love to find something besides Indomethacin that works for me...seems like everyone can tolerate it for a few years and then they develop stomach problems.

Encouraging that this seems to work for migraineurs, though--my neuro said that in some ways HC seems to sit between cluster and migraine. So it seems like it's certainly worth a shot. I'll update in a couple of weeks. Fingers crossed!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 11th, 2013 at 5:46pm
JP,

A teaspoon of honey a day will take care of your boron requirements for a lot less...  It's usually offered in a mineral formulation costing a lot more.

The vitamin K2 meaquinone-7 (MK-7) is another story.  As yet it doesn't appear to make the anti-inflammatory regimen more effective... 

That said, the basic regimen supercharges the body's capacity to pull calcium from the gut to support calcium homeostasis and ultimately build bone mineral density (BMD).

Where vitamin K2 (MK-7) comes into play is its capacity to direct serum calcium away from soft tissues and arteries, back into building BMD...

There are a number of RCTs on the use of vitamin K2 menaquinone-7 (MK-7) to reduce the risk of coronary heart disease.  See the following link for the results of one such study:

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Sooo... I'd take vitamin K2 menaquinone-7 (MK-7) even if I didn't have CH...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Apr 18th, 2013 at 8:28am
Checking back in and still doing the regiment and going strong.  Am having some legitimate issues with calf cramp/pain and wonder if there is any relation.  Got the bloodwork tested and have to go find out the results.  Wondering if anyone else had leg cramp issues.  Just throwing it out there, could very well be unrelated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Apr 18th, 2013 at 9:59am
birdman - I had some lower leg cramping issues, did some research, and suspected that I might be overdoing it on the magnesium. I cut back to 80mg of magnesium per day and the leg cramps disappeared.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by HossDelgado on Apr 18th, 2013 at 11:13pm
Interesting- I also had cramping in the back of my right calf. I thought it was because I had been overdoing it at the gym on leg day.

I suppose it makes sense that this cocktail has unintended consequences that are not yet evident.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by birdman on Apr 23rd, 2013 at 8:38am
Got my recent bloodwork back and the Vitamin D is 114.0 and they call it high.  I'm gonna call it good.  Have to look into the magnesium though.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lbh on May 1st, 2013 at 4:02pm
Hi everybody.  I'm a longtime lurker and have been following the D3 discussion very closely since last Fall.  Here's a quick bio of me:

31 year old male, episodic since 26.  Cycles typically last about 6 weeks.  My first two cycles were in August-September, next two were in December-January, and last one was in August-September again.  I've had bad headaches since I was very young though and was always told they were migraines (the symptoms never matched), but they did not start to reoccur in clusters until I was 26.

This last January I got by D levels tested, which came back at 14.  Hoping to preempt the next (and hopefully all future) cycles, I have been taking the following since January every day (although admittedly not with my largest meal):

-10,000 IU Vit. D3
-1,000 mg Calcium Citrate
-2,000 mg Omega 3 fish oil
-1 regular Centrum

I also started with a 50,000 IU loading dose of D3.

This is by memory but should be right.  I tried to get and use the Costco brand supplements recommended by Batch (I think the D3 is Nature's Bounty).

Anyway, despite the 4.5 months of vitamins, I've been having some light shadows for the past 2 weeks or so but haven't paid much attention to them.  They felt "normal" (for me anyway), and I've been able to drink alcohol without incident.

Last night, I woke up with a very low grade headache (prob Kip 3).  It carried the same kind of pain distinctive of CH - sharp, piercing and unrelenting pain in all the normal places, strong enough to wake me up, 1.5 hrs after sleep.  The attack wasn't strong enough to cause my eye to droop or nose to run though.  I took a 100 mg sumatriptan tablet and,  within about an hour, the pain was gone.  I've spent the day in a post-imitrex haze under constant shadow.

Historically my cycles start with a week or two of shadows, a couple low grade headaches, and then it's hell for 5-6 weeks.

Starting a cycle now would be almost five months premature.  I don't know whether this was an isolated incident (which would be pretty odd for me) or whether this is just CH being predictably unpredictable.  Before pumping myself full of prednisone and verapemil per usual, I'd like to try to make this regimen work. 

Here are my concerns/questions:

- I'm only getting between 100 and 200 mg of magnesium per day in the supplements.  Could that make a difference?
- I'm getting less than the RDA of Vitamins K and A, although there is some in my supplements.  Should that matter?
- As luck would have it, my neurologist left the country yesterday for two weeks, so I'm preparing myself for a fight to get O2 from my GP.  If he doesn't give it to me, I'll be left with triptans to abort while experimenting to make this work.  Will that mess with the regimen?
- Will verapemil be made less effective by the calcium citrate?
- Will the prednisone block the effectiveness of the D3?

Another tidbit that I find interesting - when in cycle, my ears get red and really hot a couple times per day, and I can feel the same system "activated" that gives rise to the headache.  I wonder if anybody else experiences this.

I'll look forward to any feedback and will plan to go to the vitamin store to buy more mag and Vit. K and A in the next 3-4 hours.  Thanks to everyone for their work and contributions - those of us that are gaining knowledge through your work owe you our lives and sanity (or what little of it is left).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 1st, 2013 at 4:31pm
Hey Ibh,

Thanks for the feedback...  For starters, cut the calcium dose in half and double the magnesium.

By now, your 25(OH)D serum concentration should be up around 85 ng/mL after dosing on 10,000 IU/day for over 4 months, but just to make sure, ask your PCP for another lab test. 

Viral infections like colds and flu or even allergic reactions can put a drain on 25(OH)D reserves and available 1,25(OH)2D3, calcitriol, the active hormonal metabolite...

If you've experienced any of these problems in the last few weeks and even if you haven't, doubling up on your vitamin D3 intake to 20,000 IU/day for a week or two may help.

Pick up a small package of chicken livers and bacon...  Wrap the livers in a strip of bacon and pin with a toothpick or skewer so you can rotate them under a broiler...  A dozen of these tasty little morsels will give you all the vitamin A (retinol) you'll need for a few weeks...  Chicken livers are also a good source of vitamin K2 (MK-4).

The other form of vitamin A (carotenoids) can help but it's not as effective as retinol... Carotenoids can be found in carrots, sweet potatoes, spinach, kale, collard greens, papaya, bell peppers, and tomatoes.

Hope this helps.  Please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lbh on May 1st, 2013 at 4:42pm
Thanks, Batch.  I'll boost the magnesium and cut the calcium and keep you and the board in the loop.  Here's hoping...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lbh on May 1st, 2013 at 4:44pm
PS - No colds or other infections that I'm aware of that could be depleting my 25(OH)D reserves.  Frankly I feel great from the neck down.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 3rd, 2013 at 8:07pm
I am a 20+ year episodic sufferer; 18+ months between cycles.  I've been in my latest cycle since April 2.  I am taking 150mg of Topamax (not working) and had an occipital nerve block injection on April 16th (didn't work).  After some research here at CH.com, I started the vitamin regimen on Saturday, April 20th.   Almost daily headaches (all treated with O2) that were coming every night started to subside after 2 days and this week I've only had one headache on Tuesday - that's 1 HA in the last week.  I went for the blood test on Monday and my 25(OH)D is 59 so I will continue with 15,000 IU and have another blood test in a month or so and report back.  I do feel a bit hazy much of the time as others have reported - not sure if that's the headache aura trying to fight through or the Topamax - I think it's the former.

Question for the group is when is it safe to have a glass of wine? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on May 4th, 2013 at 12:22am
I think it's the latter. There's a reason many CH vets call it Dopeymax.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 4th, 2013 at 1:24am
Hey SouthernCluster,

Thanks for the update.  Topamax, (topiramate) like depakote (valproic acid a.k.a. dopeycoat) are both anticonvulsants...  as such they can and will do a number you you... They'll leave you feeling goofy and disconnected... and at best, they're only partially effective... if you can get by the side effects...

If the Topamax isn't working, call your neurologist and tell him it's ineffective preventing your cluster headaches and you want to stop taking it...  You can also tell him that vitamin D3 is working more effectively with no real side effects.  (I'd love to be a fly on the wall to hear your neurologist's response... when you tell him that).

As far as the wine test goes...  take a 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 and make sure you've got a good supply of oxygen handy... then go for it!  Just don't over do it...

I'm a CCH'er... at least I was 6 months ago when I did my third burn-down test of my 25(OH)D reserves in 30 months by stopping the entire regimen...  8 days later... just like the two previous tests of my 25(OH)D reserves...  Wham-O...  a classic Kip-6.  I jumped on the oxygen and blew it away in less than 5 minutes then took a 50,000 IU vitamin D3 loading dose...  I was back to my rum & coke in jig time...  but then alcohol has never been a trigger for me...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on May 4th, 2013 at 2:23pm
HI Batch and all here
Have not really been in for a while, I have been sat on tenterhooks as for the first time in 15 years I am having a spring without the beast.  Back in Feb Batch you told me to keep the faith and this years would be a non event.  Well I am sat here without even a shadow this year, I have a large G and T next to me and life is so good.  If you are not yet having success with the regimen then keep with it. first year I did not really keep to it religiously, and i got hit to a lesser extent regularly.  THen I did not keep it up after the episode of hits finished, then I got hit again the following year, this time i got into it heavily and it stopped quicker with the regimen, this time though I kept going.  I take the full regimen every single day and have done now for over a year, since the beast stopped last year then I have had no hits since, I should be struggling with major hits now.  I am completely and utterly pain free.  I think that in my case long term use of the D3 regimen has been completely effective.  Do I notice any ill effects, only one, lets say I am often quite loose when I go to the toilet, at least i am never constipated!!  If you are struggling and feeling that perhaps this is not for you keep with it, dont stop ever, you will come through it, and you will be so much healthier as well as an added benefit.
Many thanks Batch you are a legend!

Ian :D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on May 4th, 2013 at 6:48pm
Thanks for this post, it really is good to see people having success and going pain free, hoping that it encourages others to try it themselves.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 4th, 2013 at 10:07pm

SouthernCluster wrote on May 3rd, 2013 at 8:07pm:
I am a 20+ year episodic sufferer; 18+ months between cycles.  I've been in my latest cycle since April 2.  I am taking 150mg of Topamax (not working) and had an occipital nerve block injection on April 16th (didn't work).  After some research here at CH.com, I started the vitamin regimen on Saturday, April 20th.   Almost daily headaches (all treated with O2) that were coming every night started to subside after 2 days and this week I've only had one headache on Tuesday - that's 1 HA in the last week.  I went for the blood test on Monday and my 25(OH)D is 59 so I will continue with 15,000 IU and have another blood test in a month or so and report back.   


Hope I didn't speak too soon.  Headaches last night and today (no wine involved, no changes to conditions).  Both handled easily with O2, thankfully.  Will keep the faith and report back.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 5th, 2013 at 7:16am

Brew wrote on May 4th, 2013 at 12:22am:
I think it's the latter. There's a reason many CH vets call it Dopeymax.


I think "hazy" may have been a poor choice of words on my part.  I should have a said I'm feeling "shadows" much of the time.  Prior to trying the treatment, if I felt cluster "twinges" coming on, I could not run, I could not hide...it was a matter of minutes until big pain was coming.  Now, I'm noticing that what previously was a warning sign now may go on for hours or full days and then go away, only to return a day or two later. 

And this is why I don't think it's the Topamax.  Since the feeling I get with Tope is different.  I can feel it at work up there, but mostly when I am changing the dosage.  When the dose has been stable for a few days, I'm much less dopey.

Just wanted to clarify so others who are seeing similar situations understand the vitamins didn't just make my clusters vanish.....yet.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 5th, 2013 at 3:09pm
Hey Ian,

Thanks for the wonderful feedback and kind words...  I love it when a plan comes together... and you sail through a CH cycle pain free...  Good on you!

Check your magnesium supplement.  If it's magnesium oxide, switch to magnesium citrate, magnesium lactate, or magnesium glycinate... These magnesium salts have a bioavailability around 80-90%... Magnesium oxide bioavailability is down less than 5% and it acts as a laxative at doses like this.

SouthernCluster...  It sounds like you've still got a little bit more to go in order to elevate your 25(OH)D serum concentration to a therapeutic level.  Try doubling your daily vitamin D3 dose for a few days to a week and watch what happens.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lbh on May 5th, 2013 at 8:54pm
Hello all - wanted to give a quick update.

I increased the mag to 400 mg and the vit D to 20,000 iu per day, which I started last Wednesday and continue through today.  Since Wednesday I've been completely pain free, although I believe there's a likelihood that I had some freak pain and wasn't going into cycle.  I have an appt to get my 25(OH)D checked tomorrow morning and will upload results.  I'll also be in touch later this year at the normal cycle times.  Once I can report with some certainty on the results of the D regimen, I'll take the survey.

Thank you again for all your great work and research and please keep up the fight to get this accepted by the medical community.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by IndianaJohn on May 7th, 2013 at 3:04pm
Just an update, I've been PF for 15 months

10,000 IU D3
500mg Magnesium
500mg Potassium
500mg Calcium Citrate
2400mg fish oil

It's been working well, no HA's, no bad side effects.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on May 7th, 2013 at 5:04pm
Wow, everyone seems to be having such great results, and believe me I want to join you in pf bliss. But no good news as of yet.
I've been taking for 1 month with lemonad or oj:

D3 15000 Ius (50000 dose once a week)
Calcium citrate (600 mg of calc, 250mg mag. and 10mg zinc)
fish oil 2000 ius

My neuro is a f ing b and wouldn't order the 25(oh) d test, stating it wasnt part of their normal care so the insurance wouldnt pay.

I dont have a PCP but I'm trying to locate a good one and hopefully get the test done asap.

I going to stop the regimen in the mean time as I've had more frequent attacks in the  24 hr period following the 50000 d3 load dose???? This years cycle is still going on strong at 4 mo.s,  longer than normal for me.

I'm using energy drinks or 2mg trex to abort (02 is on the way though). This regimen was supposed to be my prevent, but it does seem to helping even a little.

Any one having similar lack of results???

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on May 7th, 2013 at 9:33pm
Tell your doc that you're willing to pay for it and that she should just order it, please.

Then talk to the lab and ask them if they will just charge you their normal negotiated rate and pay cash for it. Shouldn't run you more than $40 or $50.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 8th, 2013 at 2:55am
Hey Erk,

Brew has given you some sound advice on the 25(OH)D lab test.  You can also order this lab test over the internet or by phone from ZRT labs...  The test costs $65 and no Rx required.  See the following link for details"

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What kind of magnesium are you taking?  If it's magnesium oxide, switch to magnesium citrate or magnesium malate.  Magnesium oxide had a bioavailability of 4% to 5%...  Magnesium citrate and magnesium malate are up around 90% bioavailability.

Are you taking any vitamin A (retinol)? Most multi-vitamins contain retinol.

You may have a low arterial/systemic pH...  (too much acid) and that could be blocking the vitamin D3 preventative effect...   Try some Alka-Seltzer or the Arm & Hammer baking soda tonic...  (half teaspoon of baking soda in 4 ounces of water 4 to 5 times a day.  Either method should elevate your systemic pH.

If your liver is working properly, your 25(OH)D is likely up around 80 to 90 ng/mL by now...  That means you can drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day and not have any worries about vitamin D3 intoxication.

IndianaJohn...  Thanks for the wonderful update!!!

Take care and please keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on May 8th, 2013 at 9:49am
Erk
   I too, had no good response to the D3 protocol.  I had my levels tested and they were up in the high eighties, after seven weeks on it.  I still take the combo, but its not working for me,  I changed my diet, etc. tried the baking soda thing etc.  it just doesnt work for some.  I am going longer than usual as well, although I skipped a cycle last year so the beast is probably punishing the crap out of me.  I already bought all of the vits, so I will finish them out, but I dont think I will buy any more because after four months,  I think I would have seen an improvment.  Things are as bad as they have ever been.  But , as Batch said,  some people take longer to respond, and maybe you should give it some more time.  Just imagine, if you gave up a week before you would have seen great results.   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on May 8th, 2013 at 4:34pm
Chrisw,
Sorry to hear you are not having any luck. Thats good advice I am going stick with the regimen. Hope the beast retreats for you soon.

Batch,
Good call on the mag. I checked my calc citrate w/ mag and zinc it was mag oxide. So I found some cal and mag citrate (wasnt easy to find). I got vit A, K2 and zinc as well. Will dose accordingly.

Also I got the baking soda and alka seltzer and some ph test strips. Tested after taking all the vit.'s with oj, it was 7.0. Is that too low?

Overnighted the d3 serum test kit, should arrive thursday. Will post after results.

Thanks!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 9th, 2013 at 2:07am
Hey Erk,

Good move on the magnesium citrate and vitamin A (retinol)...  They might just do the trick...

Regarding the saliva pH test strips...  A single measurement is just that... a single datum.  You need to measure your saliva three times a day and average the results to get a more accurate indication.  Do this for a couple weeks and you should have a good profile of your saliva pH.

Measure the first pH of the day before breakfast, the second before lunch and the third right before bed.   

You also need to measure your saliva pH during cluster headache hits.  If your system is anything like mine, your saliva pH during a hit will be roughly 0.5 below your daily pH average. 

The following chart illustrates my average daily pH (green line) and my pH during a cluster headache attack (red line) and five minutes after an abort with oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation (blue line).  From all the data I've collected, I'm convinced a low arterial pH will keep preventatives from working and will even slow down abortives...

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The best pH measurement technique is rinse your mouth out with water and wait a few minutes for fresh saliva to form.  Saliva pH lags behind your arterial pH by roughly 5 minutes.

Hang in there...  This regimen should work and if it doesn't... data from the online survey and from posts here at CH.com indicate a comorbid condition is usually responsible.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by chrisw on May 9th, 2013 at 8:28am
I know its a change of subject,  but jeez Batch, dont you ever sleep?  I see the times of your responses.  You really are a night owl arent you?  lol ;D ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 9th, 2013 at 8:51am

chrisw wrote on May 9th, 2013 at 8:28am:
I know its a change of subject,  but jeez Batch, dont you ever sleep?  I see the times of your responses.  You really are a night owl arent you?  lol ;D ;D


Oh Chris, he is the man! ;)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jeannie on May 9th, 2013 at 2:55pm
Just an update...

I've increased my D3 to 10,000 IU about two weeks ago and now to 30,000 this week and am continuing the calcium and fish oil. I'm also still dosing with seeds every five to seven days but seems that things are ramping up instead of slowing down. 

I'm so easily discouraged when it comes to CH.   :-/

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on May 9th, 2013 at 4:24pm
Jeannie - Be sure you're getting an adequate amount of zinc, magnesium, vitamin A (retinol), and boron.

Could be you're like me - VERY slow to ramp up and get into the sweet spot.

Edited to add: You might also want to try a half-teaspoon of baking soda in a small glass of water 2 or 3 times a day.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jeannie on May 10th, 2013 at 11:20am
Thanks, Brew.   I added a multi-vitamin this morning.  It has all of those listed in it.  I'm not losing hope just yet.  I was just thinking that I was one of the lucky ones who saw immediate results because the last two months of CH have been so mild.  I'd be pleased if I could even just get back to no daytime hits. 

PF wishes,

Jeannie

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by E-Double on May 10th, 2013 at 7:44pm
I've been onit since Easter and haven'nt noticed real change in clusters but feel better overall.

I think this outstanding Pete!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on May 10th, 2013 at 9:29pm
You get a serum 25(OH)D test?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lbh on May 12th, 2013 at 2:43pm
Hi all,

I wanted to give an update, since it appears that I am not in fact pain free, despite the Vit. D treatment.  Interest news though, to say the least.

After 10,000 iu of D3 per day since January of 2013, my 25(OH)D levels went from 14 ng/ml to 76.9, tested last Monday. 

My cycles usually come in the Fall or Winter.  I appear to be in, or fighting, a cycle now, in May, which is new. 

My success with the regimen thus far appears to dependent upon the magnesium, and not just the quantity but the type.  Here's what happened:

- Tuesday before last (about a week and a half ago), I had a low grade evening hit that woke me up.  Aborted with sumatriptan.
- Wednesday, upon Batch's suggestion, I cut the calcium in half and bought magnesium glycinate, 400mg.
- Thursday night slept great (with the help of extended release melatonin), and reported to the board that I was pain free and possibly not in cycle.
- I took the mag Thursday and Friday night, causing some unwanted gastro side effects Friday night. Believing I was not in cycle and wanting to feel good on my weekend trip out of town, I stopped the mag, but continued everything else.
- Monday morning woke up with a "stormy" head
- Tuesday woke up with a low grade hit (at this point obvious that I am in some kind of cycle)
- Wednesday I tried magnesium oxide, hoping it would still protect against the CH's but be easier on my stomach given the lower bioavailability.

Between Wednesday and now, the headaches didn't stop with the magnesium oxide, but they never exceeded more than a low grade, i.e. enough to wake me up but sometimes enough to sleep through or that I could abort with oral sumatriptan (my neurologist is still out of the country, so I have no O2, conveniently).  Yesterday I switched back to the mag glycinate, taking 400 mg around 2 pm with lunch.  No gastro side effects (yet), and my shadows had all but cleared up by last night.  Slept all night with the aid of extended release melatonin...but woke up with probably about a kip 5 this morning at 8 am.  Aborted with oral sumatriptan and currently feel hazy, but fine.

What I've learned from this is that the mag is important.  However, you have to take a mag supplement that is sufficiently bioavailable that there is enough of it in your system to do its thing (I think the Batch recommendation is glycinate or calcitrate, both with apparently high bioavailability).  Oxide may not do the trick.  If the mag is making your stomach upset, taking with a meal may help.

This is just my 2 cents.  I'm hoping that the next couple days and nights with all the cofactors and mag glycinate are smooth.  If this gets out of hand, I'll have to switch to prednisone and verapemil and ride it out.  I'll look forward to any comments and wish you all some good, pain free time.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Coho on May 12th, 2013 at 3:27pm
Gonna try this. Already take fish oil, upped my D3, taking Costco mature vitamin and Os Cal. What else? Should I take a big dose of D3 to start? They sell 10,000 ones. Sorry new to all this. Meds have cut O2 breakthru ones to k6. Topamax and Verapamil. I week 3 of first major cycle.

My major discovery is most people think a major headache is a hangover. They have no idea. Including employers. :-[

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on May 12th, 2013 at 5:31pm
Read the following thread. It will tell you everything you need to know:

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on May 13th, 2013 at 4:10am
Re: Magnesium tolerability.

Hi to all,

Batch, you may want to run your eye over this and see what you reckon in relation to appropriate Magnesium absorption. Your opinion and expertise, as always, is invaluable.

I am on the regimen, my chronic CH is still there, as I find out from withdrawing and re-introducing the regimen in order to establish efficacy. It is working well for me so far.

I have had reports of poor Magnesium tolerability from quite a few regimen users on the Aussie CH site. I myself am struggling with finding the right magnesium supplement. Mag Citrate seemed to cause too many Gastrointestinal issues, despite the high bioavailability, it increased gastrointestinal motility and reduced GI transit time to the point where (I think) other regimen co-factors were passing through the system, before they could be absorbed.

Also causing excessive reflux, which required that I resume a proton-pump inhibitor (Nexium) which, again, appears to block nutrient uptake. When I took Mag citrate, I had reflux real bad, went for the Nexium and within 36 hours, BANG, CH again. Drop the Nexium and the Mag Citrate and add a D3 loading dose, and we're away again, CH free. :)

So, I am left with the Mag Oxides in small amounts found in Centrum, total 100mg per day, which is a small amount of a Mag with low bioavailability. I'm still looking for a good, tolerable source of Magnesium in my regimen for CH. A work in progress...

One Aussie CH site user suggested Magnesium Orotate, which I have not been able to find much research on.

An aside here, with relevance...
Another friend of mine has Cervicogenic Headache.
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His condition involves strong unilateral face pain behind the eye, into the jaw and temporal areas. The onset is quick, but the duration much longer - days and/or weeks, very different from CH, with severity much less than CH, but quite disabling for him nonetheless. His condition involves degeneration of cervical neck structures (as revealed in scans), resulting in some disc bulging and pressure on C1-2-3 nerves, which are connected to the Trigeminocervical nucleus.

About Cervicogenic Headache:
"The condition’s pathophysiology and source of pain have been debated, but the pain is likely referred from one or more muscular, neurogenic, osseous, articular, or vascular structures in the neck. The trigeminocervical nucleus is a region of the upper cervical spinal cord where sensory nerve fibers in the descending tract of the trigeminal nerve (trigeminal nucleus caudalis) are believed to interact with sensory fibers from the upper cervical roots. This functional convergence of upper cervical and trigeminal sensory pathways allows the bidirectional referral of painful sensations between the neck and trigeminal sensory receptive fields of the face and head."

This type of headache is generally responsive to anti-inflammatory treatments, Indocid, Ibuprofen, Diclofenac etc. Trouble is, the poor bugger has a very rare GI condition called Achalasia (Very complicated condition of the Esophagus) His GI system does not tolerate run-of the-mill anti-inflammatory approaches, whatsoever.
Like CH, these headaches of neck origin do not respond well to opiates, or most other treatments. The Achalasia excludes him from most otherwise effective NSAIDs/medications, for various GI reasons.

We needed to find him a means of anti-inflammatory relief after all others had shown positive responses, but failed the GI tolerability test for him in his very specific condition.

Noting the anti-inflammatory response he had seen from medication in his headaches but not tolerated for GI reasons, I suggested he try to customise a regimen adaption for his specific needs. We came up with a regimen adaption for him, but did not need to aim as high with D3 dosing (The guy is 6"3 and 55kg, thin as a rake due to the Achalasia condition and we're not dealing with CH here):

He takes daily:
4000IU D3
Fortified high Calcium milk supplement
6 X 1500mg Fishoil
2 X Centrum Multivitamin (Vit A, K etc)

After 6 months of this, due to the health benefits of this regimen alone (No colds, subsequent loss of appetite, weight loss and hospitalization), he is now 65kg and looking healthy for the first time in 15 years. That's a 10kg increase, that has not occurred in the last 15 years.
Both GPs and my mate have put this down to the only introduced variables - this regimen. The 25(OH)D tests are low for CH (160nmol/l), but appropriate for his weight and condition.
(Thanks again Batch, your ideas have saved a life here, though not CH related)

We were experimenting, introducing co-factors one at a time and got to Magnesium Citrate. He reported almost complete headache relief once introducing Magnesium Citrate, but it was again, intolerable due to GI issues, especially in Achalasia. With no room for reduced GI transit times and potential weight loss, the Mag Citrate had to be quickly abandoned. Most other types of oral Magnesium were even more poorly tolerated in his condition.

We felt we had really cracked it with the Magnesium, with no head pain whatsoever, but the lack of Mag tolerability just got the better of him. So with a heavy heart and a bloody sore head, my friend near gave up and went down the Oxycontin route, which I helped steer him well away from.

I investigated other means of getting Magnesium into the body, other than the GI route. Mineral absorption across the skin is generally poor, but I remember the old Epsom salt baths, otherwise known as Magnesium Sulfate.

We ordered up a 25kg bag of bath grade Magnesium Sulfate.
After a couple of weeks using around 180gms, in a 60L bath at 50 degrees Celsius, he reported his headaches had backed off significantly, now gone.

I used this study as a starting point, noting that Magnesium levels found in the serum and urine had increased significantly after Magnesium Sulfate baths.

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I know in my friend's case, this is not CH we are treating, but if the studies are correct, maybe this is a way for CHers to get the Magnesium they need, if lack of GI tolerability has otherwise ruled out it's use?

Just an idea...

Cheers, Ben.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lbh on May 13th, 2013 at 7:08am
It seems like an uncomfortable idea, but a suppository might help with absorption and avoid the GI effects.  Based on a google search, it looks like there aren't too many options.  Thoughts? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by pattik on May 13th, 2013 at 8:06am
Regarding magnesium...it took me a couple of tries to find a form which did not cause GI upset.  I finally had to settle on a more expensive product, but it has been working very well for me so far.  It is a 100% chelated magnesium--chelated with the amino acids glycine and lysine. Because of this patented bonding to an amino acid, it can be taken with or without food. Although, I usually take it with food.  My  240 count bottle costs between $15-$18 depending on the company from which I order.  I have been taking three 200 mg tabs/day, which is keeping me pain-free.  When I'm fully past my usual CH episode season in a few weeks, I hope to cut back to two tabs/day and see if that would be adequate. The side benefits of good magnesium absorption for me has also been a noticeable reduction in nerve pain from some other conditions I deal with. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 13th, 2013 at 3:41pm
Birdman, Hoss, All,

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I wanted to review the latest thinking on muscle cramps and magnesium supplements...

Over the last two years, it's become apparent there are a few rules of thumb we need to keep in mind when taking the anti-inflammatory regimen. 

1.  The first and most important rule of thumb is simple...  See your PCP or neurologist for the lab test for 25(OH)D and discuss this regimen.

2.  If you experience an abnormal symptom after starting this regimen like cramps, nausea, diarrhea, an allergic reaction for more than a day...  stop taking the entire regimen for a day or two to see if the symptom clears...  If it doesn't...  see your PCP or neurologist.

If the abnormal symptom clears, use the process of elimination to determine which of the supplements is responsible for the abnormal symptom: Restart the regimen with vitamin D3 then add the Omega 3 fish oil and each of the remaining cofactors a day or two at a time. 

3.  10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is the maximum sustained safe maintenance dose for most of us, but what is even more important is the 25(OH)D serum concentration.  The average 25(OH)D response to a 10,000 IU/day dose of vitamin D3 is 85 ng/mL ± 10%

The raw empirical data collected from CH'ers who have experienced a therapeutic cluster headache response resulting in a significant reduction or pain free state occurred in what I called the "Green Zone" range of 60 to 110 ng/mL reported lab results.  However, as the normal reference range for 25(OH)D is 30 to 100 ng/mL, there's no sense in giving your PCP or neuro angst by pushing your 25(OH)D above 100 ng/mL unless the two of you are in agreement on the vitamin D3 dose and target 25(OH)D serum concentration...

It's important to test your 25(OH)D levels every one to two months until the serum concentration reaches a stable equilibrium after around 5 months of continuous vitamin D3 dosing. Get tested every month if taking vitamin D3 at doses greater than 10,000 IU/day.

Regarding a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 115 ng/mL.  If that's the 25(OH)D serum concentration that keeps you pain free... no problem.   Given what we've learned over the last two years, a 25(OH)D serum concentration this high indicates a vitamin D3 dose of 15,000 to 20,000 IU/day.  200 ng/mL is the low end of the 25(OH)D serum concentration associated with vitamin D3 intoxication... as indicated by a higher than normal total calcium serum concentration.

The online survey of anti-inflammatory regimen users indicated that among the 81% who experienced a favorable response and then had the 25(OH)D lab test, the average 25(OH)D serum concentration was 81.4
ng/mL, (203.5 nmol/L).

4. Tuning the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen Cofactors:  With the exception of vitamin D3, the rest of the supplements and suggested doses are at or below the listed Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDA).

It's important to understand that the RDA equals the amount of any particular vitamin/nutrient/mineral obtained from dietary sources plus any supplement you take. 

For example, I'm a cheese head so my dietary intake of calcium is likely higher than most so I take only one of the calcium citrate tablets (250 mg calcium) if I'm eating a lot of cheese.   

The same goes for zinc.  11 mg/day is the RDA and too much zinc can send the body's electrolyte balance into a tail-spin...  I love oysters on the half shell...  A half dozen of these succulent morsels and you've got a weeks worth or more of zinc.

Now to the topic of leg cramps and muscle cramps in general when taking the anti-inflammatory regimen...

In most cases, exercise-associated muscle cramps (EAMC) are due to any one, or a combination of, poor hydration, insufficient sodium, magnesium, or an imbalance in electrolytes during and following hard workouts.

The quickest way to check for low sodium and potassium is to drink an 8 oz bottle of G-series Gatorade Thirst Quencher or Low-Cal...  both contain 110 mg sodium and 30 mg potassium. 

If the leg or hand cramps clear up... you were likely low on sodium and/or potassium.

If you're taking 400 mg/day magnesium and still getting leg cramps, check to make sure it's not magnesium oxide...  You could be taking that much magnesium oxide and still not getting enough magnesium into serum solution due to poor bioavailability.

The suggested forms of magnesium include magnesium citrate (mild laxative effect), magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate and magnesium orotate.

Magnesium oxide has a bioavailability of only 4% where the magnesium citrate and magnesium malate have a bioavailability of 90%. 

Magnesium orotate is pricey... The best bang for the buck I could find was 25 cents/day, (200 500 mg tablets for $50.08) comes from Advanced Research at the following link:

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I've updated the main post on the anti-inflammatory regimen with the following:

Magnesium    - 400 mg/day (magnesium citrate, magnesium glycinate,                            magnesium malate or magnesium orotate)

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JasonD on May 13th, 2013 at 5:09pm
I wanted to share my experience. First let me say I am by no means saying this treatment doesn't work great for some. My experience has been fairly disappointing.

First off - I could not get my Neuro to get the lab test - as it was his recommendation to not take D3. He quite frankly dismissed it as unrelated and wasn't willing to go down that road. I live in a fairly small town - he is the only Neuro here.

So I tried it anyway.

Beginning: My headaches were hitting once a day at about 3am. I began regimen on 4/22.

While taking - My headaches began increasing to 3-4 times an evening. Work was severely impacted. Doctor finally got me on O2 and got a script for Imitrex Injections (yay!)

Increased dosage - I increased my D3 to 25,000 for 3 days. I noticed on these days I jumped up to 5 headaches each day.

Terminated regimen - The first night I stopped taking them, I only had 2 CH's that night. One the next day, so 3 but not the 5.

After regimen - Within 2 days of no longer taking I now am back to just the one in the middle of the night, and sometimes not even that.

Now I realize I am likely getting near the end of my bout. It is also certainly possible that getting to the end of my bout and stopping taking them just happened to coinicide and that is the reason for the relief. However - it certainly did not seem to be helping and in fact seemed to be making them worse. I can definitely say I had way more Kip9-10's during these last several weeks until I stopped than I have ever had in my life.

I hope others have success, but I personally will not do this again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on May 13th, 2013 at 7:17pm

Quote:
I hope others have success, but I personally will not do this again.

Have it your way. It took me 2+ months to get my serum level into the therapeutic sweet spot. I took 20,000 iu per day for the first two weeks with a loading dose of 50,000 once a week. And my headache activity got worse before it got better.


Quote:
I could not get my Neuro to get the lab test - as it was his recommendation to not take D3. He quite frankly dismissed it as unrelated and wasn't willing to go down that road.

Your doctor is an idiot. And you should fire him.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on May 13th, 2013 at 7:40pm
Hey Jason,

Sorry to hear youre not having much luck. I was in the same boat as you 5 days ago, feeling like the regimen was actually doing more harm than good.

Dont know if you read my recent post or not but I had been on the regimen for over a month but still getting hit hard and thinking of giving it up. Batch replied to my post with several suggestions.

1. check mag. supplement- should be mag. citrate
2. add vit. A and K2
3. elevate your ph by taking baking soda or alka seltzer      
    in 4oz of water.

I did these things and almost immediately things started getting better!!! ( elevating my ph was the key)
In the 5 days prior to making these adjustments I had 17 ha's.
In 5 days since i have had 6! And nothing above a kip-6, all aborted with energy drinks and/or an ice pack.

My neuro did the same thing on the 25(oh)d test. You could pay for the test yourself or get with a PCP. But the 2 labs I called said they only gave results to Dr.'s. Batch gave the link to ZRT labs.

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To me this is much less painless than having to deal with the almighty Dr., tell them what you want to do, explain why, pay your co-pay twice. They send the results to you.
I've sent back my test and curious about the results, but I'm feeling better thats all that matters.

Hope this helps Jason, Hang in there, make adjustments as necessary.

And many thanks to Batch!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by pattik on May 13th, 2013 at 8:37pm

Batch wrote on May 13th, 2013 at 3:41pm:

Vitacost magnesium orotate (magnesium bounded to orotic acid) is a good magnesium supplement and at 3.2 cents/day for 400 mg magnesium, it's great buy.

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Not trying to step on any toes here, but the Vitacost product linked here (@3.2 cents/day) is not magnesium orotate, but magnesium oxide.  Be sure to read the ingredients before ordering.

~Regards,
pattik

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 13th, 2013 at 8:44pm
Hey Jason,

Thanks for the update...  I'm sorry the anti-inflammatory regimen hasn't been effective in preventing your cluster headaches. 

It's also unfortunate your neurologist refused to order you a lab test for 25(OH)D. At least he agreed to write you an Rx for oxygen therapy.   

The 25(OH)D lab test would have provided valuable information.  Do you have a PCP that you see?  If so, most PCPs are more than willing to write you an Rx for this lab test so your medical insurance will cover the expense.

If that's too difficult, you can order a home blood spot kit for 25(OH)D from ZRT labs for $65 and there's no requirement for an Rx.  You can reach them on line at the following links.  The first link explains the process along with a "How to" video and the second is used to order the test kit:

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Your posts indicate you've been taking vitamin D3 for approximately three weeks.  Based on other CH'er responses and results from the online survey, this may not be enough time to build your 25(OH)D to a therapeutic level high enough to prevent your CH.

The only way to know for sure is to get the 25(OH)D lab test.

The increase in the frequency or your cluster headaches after starting vitamin D3 is puzzling.  What brand of vitamin D3 were you taking and did you take all the other vitamin D3 cofactors including magnesium citrate, zinc, boron and vitamin A (retinol). 

Without these cofactors your body may not be able to metabolize sufficient 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3, the active metabolite we think is responsible for the cluster headache preventative effect.

Supplemental calcium and the Omega 3 Fish Oil are also important parts of the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Please understand, my questions are not intended to make sure you gave this regimen a fair chance...  We've ample information on it's efficacy, so what I'm trying to do now is find out why this regimen hasn't worked to prevent your cluster headaches...  and point you in a direction to find relief from them without resorting to some very invasive prescription medications.

We've had several CH'ers who took every supplement in this regimen at the suggested doses for over two months without a favorable response.  Many of them also had their 25(OH)D concentrations tested and reported results as high as 115 ng/mL without any preventative effect.

What we found with many of these CH'ers is they also suffered from a comorbid condition that interfered with vitamin D3 metabolism.

We've also recently discovered some brands of vitamin D3 don't work for some reason.  We're not sure why just yet, but two CH'ers who had been pain free taking one brand of vitamin D3 for several months, experience a relapse with a return of their CH 8 to 9 days after switching to another brand of vitamin D3.

What I've learned over the last two and a half years working with CH'ers taking this regimen is there is usually a reason why this regimen doesn't work...

Take care and thanks again for the update.  Please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 14th, 2013 at 4:33pm
Hey Pattik,

You're correct... the link was for magnesium oxied...  and you're not stepping on any toes... I clearly grabbed the wrong link.  Good catch.  Thank you.

The Vitacost magnesium orotate at the following link is 29 cents/day for 400 mg.

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A slightly better bang for the buck at 25 cents/day (200 500 mg tablets for $50.08) comes from Advanced Research at the following link:

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It's still pricey...  I should have know 3 cents a day was too low when all the other magnesium ototate brands I looked at were 25 to 30 cents/day.

I'm not all that sure about the cost benefit ratio of magnesium orotate when you can get 180 1000mg tablets of magnesium malate for $11.46 or 3.2 cents/day if you use a pill cutter and split the tablets in half or take one every other day for a 360 day supply.

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I think you're also spot on about chelated magnesium supplements...

That said, a check of clicaltrials.gov revealed only a handful chelated magnesium out of 490 studies involving oral dosing with magnesium, 77 studies on magnesium in the last 12 months.  Nearly all involved the use of magnesium sulphate... (Epsom salt), a few with magnesium citrate...

There was one study done on magnesium orotate: Magnesium orotate - 400 mg tds (three times a day) along with CoQ10 100 mg tds,Lipoic acid - 100 mg tds Omega-3 fatty acids - 300 mg (in 1 g fish oils) tds and Selenium - 200 µg as metabolic therapy following heart surgery.

For reference, there were 107 studies done on vitamin D3 in the same time frame.

There's plenty of good reading on magnesium at the National Institutes of Health's, Office of Dietary Supplements at the following link:

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Thanks again for catching my mistaken link.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on May 14th, 2013 at 5:26pm
since we're on the subject thought i'd add my recent purchase from the Vitamin Shoppe.

Magnesium Citrate 300 quantity 200mg each
$17.99 bottle. 
Equals 6 cents per 200mg aka 12 cents per 400mg.

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-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on May 17th, 2013 at 12:57am
Hi all,

I got my results from Zrt labs labs on the vit. d test I took on May 10th. It was 54 ng/ml.

This is after 1 month of the regimen, taking 15,000 daily plus 50,000 iu.'s once per week of D3. My d3 level prior to starting the regimen most have been extremely low to say the least.

Batch,

As I stated in a post a few days ago, I started noticing results rather quickly after following your advice on increasing my ph with baking soda or alka seltzer . I have had 8 ha.'s in the week since, compared to 23 the week before. The intensity is way down also, nothing above a kip 6, all aborted with an energy drink or two. Even had 2 pf days, before tonight's little baby k5 wakeup. Killed that sucker with a Monster.

You had estimated my d3 level to be at 80-90 ng/ml and had me drop back to 10,000 iu.'s. Should I stick with that you think?

Thanks a million!!!! life's getting better

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 17th, 2013 at 2:30pm
Hey Erk,

Thanks for the update with your 25(OH)D lab results...  Given you're still experiencing CH symptoms (attacks) and your 25(OH)D is still not in the green zone (60 to 100 ng/mL), I would continue with the more aggressive vitamin D3 dosing schedule and test again after a month.

Take care and please keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 17th, 2013 at 9:06pm
Just a quick update. After testing 59, I doubled the D3 to 30k IU for a few days and the headaches have now totally stopped. I've tapered from the Topamax and am drug-free starting yesterday. I'm almost ready for a glass of wine but will give it some more time before I go for it (still scared).  But for now, very happy that the O2 can start to gather dust. Very appreciative of all the advice here!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on May 17th, 2013 at 9:25pm
That's good SouthernCluster! Drugfree also, no imitrex for a week. But still not ready for a "Beer Test"!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JH86 on May 18th, 2013 at 11:12am
So encouraged and happy to be reading this thread and the success stories. So I really hate being a "downer", but like JasonD, I too have had a strange, unfavorable first attempt at this regimen.

Been episodic for 26 years. Just started another cycle 3 weeks ago after my longest remission ever by far (2.5 years). Most cycles have lasted between 12-16 weeks. There is always something different each cycle but usually after I settle in I'm good for 3,sometimes 4 hits a day. 1 or 2 in evening and 2 after going to bed, which is where I was at before starting this. Have used O2 as only treatment for 6-7 years. Tried a couple of other things (the usual suspects) with Nero during one very unusual year long cycle with no real success.

Anyway, started the D3 regimen (10,000 IU D3, 3000mg Fish Oil, 500mg Calcium Citrate, 400 Magnesioum, Multivitamin) on 5/11. After 3rd day I had no CH in the evening, 2 much lessor hits after bed that were knocked out within about 1/4 the time/O2 than usual. I was STOKED!! Next night none in evening but pretty much the normal to slightly worse 2 after bed. Next night 2 in evening and 3 after bed. All worse than normal. Being the chicken I am, stopped regimen following day but that night had 2 evening, 4 after bed. Last 2 days I've had 4 during day/evening and 4 after bed. All way up there (K 8-9) for 45-60 min even with full O2 therapy that seemed less effective than usual. Never had it this bad. (Can't imagine how those of you with this and worse for so long can do it. You are far stronger and braver than I)

With that said, I really can't imagine that taking what I took for such a short period could cause that much of an adverse reaction.However, if it's capable of stopping Chronic CH in it's tracks in the same amount of time, like it sounds it may have for at least a few, then I guess it is quite capable of a major/rapid effect. But the exact opposite?? Really? Not willing to go there just yet. One thing different for me this cycle is that it definitely took longer to reach normal level. It took about 2 weeks to slowly ramp up, whereas it usually takes about 3 days to go from first hit to normal level. So, it's possible I have still been "ramping" to above normal levels (and being punished for my 2.5 yr remission) and pretty much headed here regardless. I tend to think that's most likely the case but it's still a very unsettling coincidence to go from normal cycle to worst ever in the exact time frame as starting this regimen. But then again, the one night of it being "better" may mean that this works and I need to keep going for it. But one night is not near enough to know....

So, really torn between giving this (no D3) a few more days to see where it goes OR running out and buying a different brand of D3 and hitting it hard and fast - at least the loading of 50,000IU to start and sticking with it no matter what, and also trying the adjustments erk posted about. Going to try to get the 25(OH)D lab test next week regardless and to talk to PCP about other options just in case. From past experience it takes 3-4 weeks to see my or any Neuro ("if it's an emergency, hang up and dial 911" LOL!) so that's out for a while.

I'll post an update or two for what it's worth. Even if this ends up not working for me, it's more than likely a failure on my part to do the right things, make adjustments and really stick with it even if it seems to be getting worse at first. I need to work on that.

Finally, I have never been so excited than to see this thread where something like this (non-prescription, readily available, next to no side effects) has been able to help so many with CH. I pray that it continues to do so and my highest praise and respect to you Batch for bringing this together and working so hard to help so many. I wish you all continued success.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 18th, 2013 at 9:09pm
Hey JH,

Thanks for the headzup you've started the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Hang in there and don't get discouraged because you haven't had a lasting pain free response or a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of your cluster headaches up to now.

Building 25(OH)D reserves is a lot like a checking account.  You may be making daily deposits (taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 or more)... However, your body can easily be writing checks on the 25(OH)D reserves (consuming the 25(OH)D) as fast as you're making deposits.

Not all CH'ers enjoy a significant response in the first 5 days after starting this regimen...  Some can take up to a month and a few have taken up to two months to experience a lasting response.

Knowing your 25(OH)D serum concentration at the starting point is key to avoiding a lot of angst...  (Will this regimen really work for me or do I need to try something else?). 

Accordingly, try to get the 25(OH)D lab test as soon as possible and when the results come back...  You'll have a much better idea where you stand.

Several CH'ers have safely bumped their daily vitamin D3 dose to 15,000 or 20,000 IU/day and added a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose.  An aggressive vitamin D3 dosing schedule like this builds 25(OH)D reserves to a therapeutic level a lot faster.

Finally, you can't really say this regimen isn't effective for you until you've built your 25(OH)D reserves up to an average serum concentration of 85 ng/mL.  That requires a 25(OH)D lab test after 30 days on this regimen and possibly another 25(OH)D lab test 30 days after that.

Even if you get to that serum concentration without a favorable response to this regimen, there are still things to do/try like tuning the vitamin D3 cofactors and changing your diet... 

If that doesn't work you may need to see your PCP or an endocrinologist to start checking for a comorbid condition that may be interfering with the metabolism of 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3 we think is responsible for the preventative effect.

Erk and SouthernCluster...  Good on you two...  Looks like you're getting a good handle on the beast with vitamin D3...  Give it another week then don't be afraid to do a wine or beer test...  Just make it a small test and be sure to have your oxygen system charged and ready...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JH86 on May 19th, 2013 at 11:21am
Hi Batch,

Thanks for the response and encouragement. Please know that I by no means am trying to imply that it doesn't work for me. I sure it's obvious that I have yet to even come close to giving it the time and effort it deserves. I guess I was (still am a little) just frustrated that it seemed like I was one of the lucky ones that this worked for right off the bat only to have that door slammed in my face pretty darn quick. But that is quite often the nature of the beast isn't it?

I definitely plan on giving this a full chance starting again today and I look forward to taking the survey soon. Thank you again for all your time and effort on this.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on May 20th, 2013 at 7:51am
Re: Changing D3 brands.

I read a recent JAMA study that found differences between the declared on label measurement (IU) that showed D3 content variability as much as 9% to 140%, not only from brand to brand, but from capsules made by the same manufacturer in the same bottle.

There is a link here: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

The study is here (if this image works...)


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(Apologies if I get this image link wrong, I have woeful internet connection and cannot reload the page, sorry)

Maybe there's an efficacy issue right there...

Re: Regimen seemingly making CH initially worse before it gets better.

During the first 2 months of taking the regimen, I experienced 4-5 attacks per day. Severity was up, but I could not attribute this to anything outside of my ordinary Chronic CH. I suspected that with initially very low (19nmol/l) 25(OH)D levels, that I was cashing cheques faster than I could bank D3 supplements... Some 50,000IU loading doses, 5000IU X 3 per day (every 8 hrs) and all the cofactors meant the regimen eventually kicked in. With co-factors as a catalyst, it seemingly unlocked the potential of stored D3 and it is working well.

However, during the course of experiencing the 70 odd drugs I have trialed in CH, I did notice one thing and I'm not sure I can properly articulate this here. I will give it a try...

Any drug that actually relieved my CH, seemed to have a possibility of making it worse, either on the downward side of the half-life, or as it tapered off at end of trial or in wash-outs.

Prednisolone is an example of a steroidal anti-inflammatory that commonly does this. Many people will note the "falling off a cliff" end to their Pred taper. When the Pred dose drops, just before the pituitary gland can kick back in and naturally produce it's daily 7.5mg of Cortisol, CH definitely gets worse in the absence of a suitable preventive drug.
Hence, why Cortisone is a transitional therapy.

This "hand-over" point, or "gap" between cessation of taking steroidal anti-inflammatory Cortisone (and it's cascade effect) and the body's natural Cortisol production has always increased severity in my CH until it could stabilise. Some of my worst ever attacks, (11s) were in the 2-3 days after a Pred taper "flicked the switch" before my body could produce it's own supply.

Aside from immune system consumers and comorbid conditions, could it be that D3 initially has it's own "inter-dose withdrawal"? it's effects are initially dosage time dependent? a half-life issue? a sterol withdrawal effect? or some other as yet unknown effect where as it "wears off" in between initial doses it may actually bring about increased severity or frequency? or even CH rebound?

Many, many drug therapies have done this to me.
It was important with those drugs too, to persist until within desirable and measurable biomarker windows/specifications, before abandoning attempts to establish efficacy in CH.

I know these are complex scientific questions that we are not likely to be able to answer and I defer to Batch's statistical evidence here, but cashing cheques, I really do know what you mean Batch...

Sticking it out with the regimen (with abortives at hand) and getting pathology tests may well be the key, I think.

Just a thought...

Following Batch's advice was the best thing I did, my thoughts aside...

Cheers, Ben.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on May 20th, 2013 at 9:59am
I find it frustrating not knowing the true potency of the vitamins considering FDA does not regulate.   

Unless one gets repeat tested, it's all speculation how good it truly is.  With that stated, I prefer to pay a bit extra for reputable name brands that have been around for 20+ years.   

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 10th, 2013 at 2:06pm
I get a lot of questions about medications that interfere with the anti-inflammatory regimen of vitamins and minerals....  The following link answers many of these questions and more...

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Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TeeJ2379 on Jun 12th, 2013 at 10:08pm
Batch and All,

Thanks for all the information and education.  Although I am still struggling with CH episodes (up to 4-5 a day now) I am encouraged by the D3 regiment information.  This is much like trouble shooting any problem - it takes experimentation and patience.  I have faith that this will help me, I just have to find my sweet spot.  Still waiting on my initial lab results, hopefully in the next week or so.  Week two of regiment going as planned - though I may have bought the wrong magnesium - looking online now to get the correct stuff.   Thanks again for all the hard work and dedication.  This is a lot of work to put together and a lot of time answering very difficult questions.  Thank you for all you do.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Emjay on Jun 15th, 2013 at 7:02am
Started the D3 regimen 3 weeks ago, at the tail end of my spring episode which means getting 3 hits a day, even with Topamax.  I am now almost off the Topamax and have been hit-free for a full week.  I started at a level of 39 (blood work taken before beginning) so I have been taking 50mg D3 once a week, 20mg the rest of the week for the past 3 weeks.  I plan on tapering down to 20mg once a week and 15mg in a week and then down to 10mg.  I am taking the rest of the regimen as recommended as well.  I have had a couple of twinges that did not even need O2!  To me, this has been a major improvement and I plan on sticking with this.  Yes, I will get tested again soon.  This is way better than taking medications with their side effects, for me, especially since I was still getting hits and then using my aborts!  Thank you for this regimen!!!! 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Adamt on Jun 19th, 2013 at 1:11pm
It's been quite awhile since I have posted about my results. I apologize.

It was right around this time last year I found this thread and printed off the information and went to my Doctor. I am here to give you all an update and it's been way over due. First and foremost, Batch... I can't thank you enough!

After reviewing the information, my Doctor brought me and tested my D3 serum level, it was very low. I began the regimen and the very first night I had an uninterrupted night of sleep, something I haven't experienced in a very long time. A week later the beast up and left my body and took the shadows with him as well. Now, a year later I am still pain free and living like I have never lived before.

I am actually almost in tears writing this because since the age of 13 CH has disrupted every single aspect of life for me. Relationships, work and social activity were devastated and tested to their limits. There were several occasions where instead of buying my injections I contemplated of using the money to buy a gun instead. I am now 42 and life has just begun.

I am back to work full time and am in the process of opening up my own business. A dream that I have always dreamed. I can now finally say I love life, and that is something that I thought was never again going to be possible. I am happy to say that my Doctor is also using this therapy with a few of his migraine patients successfully.

Once again, Batch... you sir have saved my life. I am forever indebted to you. If I could meet you I would give you the biggest hug of your life. I can only hope that the rest of you find the same results and can experience life the way it is suppose to be. Take care every one and pain free days for all of my fellow CH sufferer's!   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 19th, 2013 at 2:40pm
Adamt,

Wow...  Thank you for a superb and very powerful back brief on your life changing experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen. 

I know the wonderful feeling being free of cluster headache and I'm very happy for you.

It's comments like yours that grab the attention of other CH'ers still searching for a workable and lasting solution to this very painful disorder.

When you have time, please PM me the contact info for your doctor.  I'll be happy to send additional information from the survey of CH'ers using this regimen.  It's very compelling and the data indicates a clear causal relationship between cluster headache and a vitamin D3 deficiency.   

Moreover, by elevating serum 25(OH)D concentration into a range of 60 to 110 ng/mL by taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is 81% effective in preventing cluster headache.

If you've not taken this survey, please do.  You can find it at the following link:

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Thank you again for the wonderful update.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jun 19th, 2013 at 6:01pm
G'day Adamt,
I enjoyed reading your post. I can relate to that, hoping you've
got rid of the Beast forever.                                                   

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JH86 on Jun 20th, 2013 at 7:00pm
Adamt- Great story. So glad this has worked for you and so many others.

I’m not having much luck so far and just wondering if anyone out there tried the D3 and got their levels on up there (say >85ng/ml), found it wasn't helping, but then discovered a comorbid condition and/or some other “trick” that made it work for them? I've been on the regimen for 4.5 weeks and just got my lab test results. I’m at 107ng/ml. Unfortunately, I can’t say I’m any better off than any other cycle I've had. Actually am a little worse overall to be honest.

Followed the regimen to a tee including the Magnesium Citrate, K2, Boron, Calcium Citrate, Zinc, Multi-Vitamin with RDA of Vitamin A, fish oil and even the baking soda several times a day. (I currently do not take any other CH medication at all.) Still getting hit at least 3-5 times/day with at least two of those being in the K6-8 range. Granted, every now and then one of them seems quicker to abort with 02 than usual but that’s about it.

I’m going to stay on the regimen at least long enough to finish off my supply, but will knock back to 8 to 10K IU of the D3 per day.

I did talk to my GP about this but wasn't examined or tested for other things that might interfere with this working. I wasn't sure what to even ask about really. Anyone out there find any help from an endocrinologist or an “alternative” practitioner? Any other tricks or things to try related to this regimen now that I've got a pretty hefty serum level?

Thanks
John

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by yesdog27 on Jun 20th, 2013 at 7:16pm
Great question , John. I'm in the same boat as you. I have been on the regimen for about 7 weeks now. Initially I noticed a big difference but then I slowly started getting worse again. I just tested at 110 ng/ml last week. I am taking the D3, calcium citrate, magnesium citrate, multivitamin, and fish oil. Interested to hear everyone's answers...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jun 20th, 2013 at 7:50pm
I started the D3 Regime during my Spring cycle 2012, with no
relief, in fact my attacks were all over the place, drove me crazy.
But the good news is i had no CH's this Fall. [smiley=happy.gif]

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 21st, 2013 at 1:36pm
John,

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time and that the anti-inflammatory regimen hasn't been effective in preventing your CH.

It's cases like yours that grab my attention.  You appear to be doing everything right taking the anti-inflammatory regimen... Your 25(OH)D is up in the green zone... and it's still not working to prevent your CH...  I suspect we're missing something.

For starters, check the type of magnesium you're taking.  We need magnesium supplements with the highest bioavailability, i.e., magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate. 

These three salts of magnesium have an 80-90% bioavailability.  Magnesium oxide has a bioavailability of at best 5% and can induce osmotic diarrhea at higher doses.

If you're already taking one of the three magnesium supplements above, cut the calcium supplements for a week to see what happens.

We are what we eat, so the second thing to try is the GOMBS diet. Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans-Berries and Seeds.  A handful of each a day should be sufficient. 

Extra virgin olive oil, almonds and avocados are really good sources of anti-oxidents. I make a mean caesar salad dressing with fresh egg yokes, EVOO, lemon juice and elephant garlic then toss it with romaine lettuce with avocados and sunflower seads and top with fresh grated romano or parmesan cheese. 

See the following links for more on the GOMBS diet:

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A sub-clinical allergy is always a possibility so cut out gluten and peanuts.  Cut out sugar and all prepared foods containing sugar... Whole fresh fruits are ok.

The last suggestion comes off the wall...  Nopalea...  Swing by Costco, Wally World or your local supermarket and pick up a jug of their nopal product.  It can't hurt and it just might help.   

If all of the above fail to improve your situation, see your PCP for the endocrine panel of lab tests or look up an endocrinologist for a complete workup.

One last thought on your oxygen therapy.  What flow rate are you using?  If we can't prevent your CH... we might just be able to improve your abort times with oxygen therapy.  I was chronic for over 5 years and oxygen was all I used... except I used oxygen at flow rates that support hyperventilation... (25 to 40 liters/minute).  The following chart illustrates the benefits of this method of oxygen therapy over traditional oxygen therapy at 15 liters/minute.

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4 of the 7 participants in this pilot study used a 0-60 liter/minute regulator and got the same results as the 3 participants who used an oxygen demand valve.  The seven participants logged a total 366 aborts during the eight weeks each took part in this study. The two methods of oxygen therapy were 99% effective in achieving an abort and as you can see in the above chart, the average abort time was 7 minutes for all attacks between pain levels 3 and 9.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JH86 on Jun 21st, 2013 at 10:16pm
Batch-
Thanks for the reply and your seemingly tireless efforts at helping people out with this.

Yeah, been doing the Magnesium Citrate since the start. I'll try cutting the Calcium for a while.

I've previously read up on the GOMBS stuff and have been trying to do that. Not very disciplined when it comes to a healthy diet though. Cutting the gluten and sugar would be a large task for me. Sounds like you're quite the cook though. Need to stop by your place for dinner sometime  ;)

Been using 02 now for about 12 years. Gotten pretty good at aborting with it but will work on your Hyperventilating technique a little more. I do have a welders regulator that can blow the bag apart in seconds flat if needed. The worst ones (the one or two after falling asleep at night) are always the most stubborn. Seems to take 20-25 minutes to fully abort no matter what I do. Still, better than the alternative.

I'm going to pursue the endocrinologist "complete workup" thing. I've come this far and it would be interesting regardless.

Again, thanks so much for all the advice and time.
John

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Morran on Jun 24th, 2013 at 10:29am
I Think this has been up before in the thread but I had much better success when I upped my doasge of vit A. I couldn't get the shadows from leaving and took 25000IU D3 each day but felt that my shadows went away for 2 days after each sushi meal.
I upped my dosage to 7500IU Vit A per day and could the day after stop my dosage of d3 for a week until the shadows reappeared again. 

Now I've been drunk for 3 weeks and still no pain  :D ;D

Thank you, Batch! You've saved my Life! I'm 6 months into my cluster and has Another 8 to go and I feel great! You will forever be my hero! :-*

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by JH86 on Jun 24th, 2013 at 8:21pm

Morran wrote on Jun 24th, 2013 at 10:29am:
Now I've been drunk for 3 weeks and still no pain  :D ;D


Now that's what I'm talking about. :)

I'm going to up my Vit. A and buy a keg of beer!  :D

But seriously, interesting post. I'm going to play around a little with the doses and see what happens....

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jun 25th, 2013 at 10:37pm
Pattik,
That was a very inspiring and well written testimony about D3.

Congrats and PF wishes to you ;)

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jun 26th, 2013 at 12:41am
I agree, well writen, and well said. I also did'nt dance with
the Beast this fall, thanks to Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 26th, 2013 at 12:36pm
Pattik,

Thank you for the wonderful update on your experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen.  In some cases I think episodic CH'ers have a more difficult time trying to determine the effectiveness of this regimen when they first start it.  Like so many other preventatives, a drop in the frequency of our CH can and will co-inside with end of cycle blurring the cause and effect nature of the preventative.

That said, staying on this regimen year-round and sailing through the next regular cycle without a visit from the beast is a very strong indication of effectiveness.   Good on you for sticking with this regimen and for the wonderful update.

JH and Morran, interesting comments on the link between taking additional vitamin A and a cessation of your cluster headache symptoms. 

You may have hit the nail square on the head and connected the dots in answering the question why some CH'ers take so long to respond to this regimen and others don't respond at all...

The biochemistry and molecular biology of vitamin A is almost as fascinating as vitamin D3.  Among it's many benefits is the role it plays in conjunction with vitamin D3 as it applies to genetic transcription and gene expression.

I'm not a doctor or a cellular biologist.  On top of that my schooling in cellular biology and biochemistry circa '62-'67 is sadly out of date... 

In order to put my following discussion in perspective,  vitamin A was discovered in 1914.  However, it wasn't until 1969 that researchers discovered it was metabolized into 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol) and that vitamin D3 receptors existed on human genes. The human genome wasn't completely mapped our until 2003 at NIH.

Accordingly, I'll use the following graphic from Biochemistry for Medics© to show where vitamin A, (retinol), links up with 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), the active hormonal form of vitamin D3 at the cellular nucleus/genetic level.

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What this graphic illustrates is the physical location and proximity between the Retinoic Acid X Receptor (RXR) and the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR) at a special location on the DNA dual helix called the Vitamin D Receptor Element (VDRE). 

When activated by 1,25(OH)2D (vitamin D3) and retinoic acid (vitamin A), this RXR-VDR complex modulates the transcription of specific genes.   More than 50 genes in tissues throughout the body are known to be regulated by 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D... and the number is growing...

What are genetic transcription and gene expression?  In layman's language, (my limited understanding), genetic transcription is the first step in gene expression.  Gene expression is the process by which information from a gene is used in the cell to synthesize a functional gene product.  In other words, in response to a signal or stimulus, the cell used vitamin D3 and vitamin A to manufacture a product needed by the body.

Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, one of the Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy explains it best...

"When bound to the vitamin D receptor and a variety of other helper proteins, calcitriol seems to be just the right key to open up the locked stores of DNA information, allowing the cell to transcribe the plans and produce the proteins needed for tissue-specific responses. The helper proteins that are a part of this complex determine the region of the DNA that will be transcribed. Without vitamin D, the ability of the cell to respond adequately to pathologic and physiologic signals is impaired.

For example, the ductal epithelium of the breast requires vitamin D to mount an adequate response to cyclic variation in estrogen and progesterone. Also, macrophages use vitamin D to enable the synthesis of the bactericidal peptides needed to deal with bacterial invaders.

In addition, most of the epithelial structures in the body, which turn over relatively rapidly, use vitamin D to signal the transcription of proteins that regulate cell differentiation, cell proliferation, and apoptosis (programmed cell death)."

So where is all this going?  My theory what this means to us as cluster headache sufferers follows:

My current thinking on the mechanism of action of the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is based on the extrarenal (outside the kidneys) autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism that takes place in the periphery at the cellular and nuclear level and that supports genetic expression. 

As such I think 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), down-regulates or suppresses the calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) [1] that is elevated during cluster headache and migraine attacks. [2]

1.  Durham PL, Sharma RV, Russo AF, Repression of the Calcitonin Gene-Related Peptide Promoter by 5-HT1 Receptor Activation. The Journal of Neuroscience, December 15, 1997, 17(24):9545–9553.

2.  Goadsby PJ, Edvinsson L. Human in vivo evidence for trigeminovascular activation in cluster headache Neuropeptide changes and effects of acute attacks therapies. Oxford Journals>Medicine Brain>Volume117, Issue3 Pp. 427-434.

This is just a SWAG (sophisticated wild-ass guess) backed up by a few related studies at this point... but I'm sticking with it until proven wrong...  and that's going to take some serious research backed by equally serious funding.

As one of the essential elements in genetic expression is vitamin A, that's reason enough for me to include vitamin A as an essential part of the anti-inflammatory regimen.

That also brings us to a practical question...  How much vitamin A should we take as a part of the anti-inflammatory regimen?

A review of available literature indicates the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg) or µg/day (3000 IU) RAE (retinol activity equivalents) for men and 700 µg/day (2333 IU) RAE for women. 

The UL or maximum upper limit that can be taken without adverse effects, is 3000 µg/day RAE.

Owing to wide variations in vitamin A absorption in either form,(beta-carotene, the provitamin and retinol) and metabolism of retinol to retinoic acid, we may need more vitamin A than the RDA... 

How much more?

I'm comfortable in doubling the RDA to 1,800 µg, (6,000 IU) RAE vitamin A/day for four reasons: 

(1) The Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine and the Office of Dietary Supplements at NIH tend to be conservative in setting the RDA for vitamins and minerals...  (Remember, it was the folks on the Nutrition Board that set the RDA for vitamin D3 at 400 IU/day.)

(2) The second reason is 1,800 µg/day vitamin A is still only slightly more than half the UL.

(3) Some types of foods are very high in vitamin A (beta-carotene or retinol) as illustrated in the following chart:

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Vitamin A is available in multivitamins and as a stand-alone supplement, often in the form of retinyl acetate or retinyl palmitate. A portion of the vitamin A in some supplements is in the form of beta-carotene and the remainder is preformed vitamin A; others contain only preformed vitamin A or only beta-carotene. Supplement labels usually indicate the percentage of each form of the vitamin. The amounts of vitamin A in stand-alone supplements range widely. Multivitamin supplements typically contain 2,500–10,000 IU vitamin A, often in the form of both retinol and beta-carotene.

(4) A little vitamin A a day goes a long way.  Like any other vitamin, taking too much vitamin A can be harmful.

See the following for more details on vitamin A:

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As always, talk to your PCP or neurologist about this regimen.  If for no other reason... you might just learn them something new about treating CH'ers...  with a safe, inexpensive and very effective cluster headache preventative...

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TeeJ2379 on Jun 26th, 2013 at 3:10pm
My energy drink of choice is Monster and the vit a listed is pretty high..1922iu - rda listed says thats 40 percent, so each can is two servings so thats 80% of my vit a right there....plus whats in my multi vitamin - thinking im good on the vitamin A ...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jun 26th, 2013 at 3:58pm
Good to know about the Vitamin A cofactor.

My multivitamin includes Vitamin A (as Carocare natural mixed carotenoids) at 10,000 IU = 200% daily value.

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Jun 27th, 2013 at 12:17am
    Batch, Sometime ago I read here (If I understood it right) about how oxygen works to kill a cluster by lowering the co2 in the blood which in turn raises the pH which causes the blood vessels to constrict. I've also heard adding baking soda or equivalent to one's diet can help to raise the pH. We all know how deadly alcohol is for us, a least in cycle, and many alcohols contain a fair amount of natural carbonation and hard liquor is often mixed with a soft drink. My question isn't how alcohol hurts our situation but how, if at all, carbonated drinks might affect us.  Is it possible consumption of soda is a detriment to our problem and does any of that co2 reach the bloodstream?
     My brother-in-law is a chronic ch and a heavy cola drinker also, he doesn't drink pop at work, his day times are OK but he pounds them when he gets home and his evenings are his worst time. I know this is common but maybe a link?
      I've got him started on D3 but nothing definitive yet.

   Thanks,    Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 27th, 2013 at 2:04pm
Sean,

Good question and good on you for getting your brother-in-law started on the anti-inflammatory regimen.  The short answer is there's a wide variety of irritants capable of initiating the cluster headache attack mechanism.  They range from nitroglycerine with a 100% probability of triggering a CH, to alcohol at 70% certain foods on down to petroleum and chemical vapors.

Alcohol in any form and cola have never been a CH trigger for me... but I may be one of the few exceptions to the alcohol trigger.

Although colas are acidic as most contain a small amount phosphoric acid, H3PO4 as a food additive to add a tangy flavor, most of the acidity is due to the carbonation with carbon dioxide, CO2 added under pressure which forms carbonic acid.  That's the same carbonic acid you get when mixing baking powder and water that eventually elevates serum pH triggering vasoconstriction.  The cola syrup is also high in caffeine which acts as a vasoconstrictor.

The bottom line is it's possible that several cans of cola a day can serve as a CH trigger.  That said, my experience drinking diet Coke and the chemistry of cola tell me it's unlikely. 

The best course of action for your brother-in-law is to see his PCP and ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D to determine his vitamin D3 status.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Take care

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Jun 28th, 2013 at 12:57am
Thanks, Batch,  His patterns are changing so the D3 is doing something, we'll have to see if it works as well for him as it did on me. 

    Thanks for the reply,   Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 7:09am
Hi folks, I haven't checked in for a while but have been on the D3 regimen.

I started back in February and after being on it for about month got a blood test which came back at 200.2 nmol/L, which as far as I am aware is spot on to stop CH. Since then I have had no Episodes (Episodic), only now and again slight sensations that the beast might be trying to pay a visit but nothing else. I have also been maintenance dosing with RC Seeds every 6 weeks or so.

I am using 10,000iu a day of D3, 500mg of Calcium Citrate and 2200mg of Fish Oil containing 720mg EPA and 480mg DHA, which was pretty much Batch's original formula.

So all seems fine. The only question I have is, now looking on here is that I now see other supplements mentioned such as Magnesium, do I need that as well or if it ain't bust and all that??

Also, I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I do get mild bouts of nausea since being on the regimen? The only other meds I take are Lansoprazole 15mg as a maintenance dose for acid reflux.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 7:25am
I get the nausea, too. I suspect it is the calcium as I only take the calcium in the morning - which is when I am most likely to skip a meal. Usually anytime I take it with breakfast (almost always yogurt and granola), the nausea is almost non-existent.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 1:00pm

Chuffy wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 7:09am:
Hi folks, I haven't checked in for a while but have been on the D3 regimen.

I started back in February and after being on it for about month got a blood test which came back at 200.2 nmol/L, which as far as I am aware is spot on to stop CH. Since then I have had no Episodes (Episodic), only now and again slight sensations that the beast might be trying to pay a visit but nothing else. I have also been maintenance dosing with RC Seeds every 6 weeks or so.

I am using 10,000iu a day of D3, 1000mg of Calcium Citrate and 2200mg of Fish Oil containing 720mg EPA and 480mg DHA, which was pretty much Batch's original formula.

So all seems fine. The only question I have is, now looking on here is that I now see other supplements mentioned such as Magnesium, do I need that as well or if it ain't bust and all that??

Also, I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I do get mild bouts of nausea since being on the regimen? The only other meds I take are Lansoprazole 15mg as a maintenance dose for acid reflux.



Calcium citrate at 500mg daily is sufficient and 1200mg of Fish oil is sufficient.  You are double dosing.  Perhaps this is the reason for your nausea.

Magnesium citrate at 400mg daily is recommended.


PF Wishes ;)
-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by red ryder on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 6:03pm
Batch, I have been headache free now for a year and a half-longest I have ever gone. Have been taking the Vit. D3, fish oil, cal-mag and zinc the whole time at different doses (none lower than 5000 daily). Last year in June the shadows started and I increased the vit d3 dose from 5,000 to 10,000 even 15,000 at times and they (shadows) went away. Well this year 2 days to the date of last year in July the shadows started again-- finaly decided to get the vit d3 levels checked with my neuologist. Took in the chart showing the Headache free zone above 60ng/ml and he seemed interested. Levels came back today 101 NG/ML. Lab report says possibility of toxicity over 100 NG/ML. But he (neurologist said he was ok with that since my other CMP blood work was completely normal. 
     This is just awesome and I can't thank you enough for all this info.  What is your thoughts on backing the D3 a little. Or you think just stay at 10,000 plus all the pool time (natural Vit D).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 16th, 2013 at 3:23pm
Hey Red Ryder,

Thanks for the feedback on your experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Your 25(OH)D serum concentration is perfectly normal for a CH'er taking the anti-inflammatory regimen. 

My wife has been taking 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for nearly 3 years and her 25(OH)D serum concentration stays in a range between 105 and 115 ng/mL.  She is also free of the chronic migraine headaches that haunted her for over 20 years.

Her long time PCP didn't bat an eye at her 25(OH)D lab results but did comment that the rest of her labs and vitals which were quite normal, appear to be from a much younger woman...  This tickled my wife as she kicked the heck out of 75 last Christmas...

The truth about the "toxic" level of 25(OH)D is clouded by a lack of clinical studies for obvious reasons...  That said, there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal information from clinical observations that says the real lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication is somewhere North of 200 ng/mL, (500 nmol/L).

Your neurologist was correct in cross-checking your 25(OH)D serum concentration with your total serum calcium...  As long as the total serum calcium concentration stays in the normal rang... serum concentrations of 25(OH)D as high as 150 ng/mL are very safe.

Thanks again for the update and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Jul 22nd, 2013 at 9:58pm

LasVegas wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 1:00pm:

Chuffy wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 7:09am:
Hi folks, I haven't checked in for a while but have been on the D3 regimen.

I started back in February and after being on it for about month got a blood test which came back at 200.2 nmol/L, which as far as I am aware is spot on to stop CH. Since then I have had no Episodes (Episodic), only now and again slight sensations that the beast might be trying to pay a visit but nothing else. I have also been maintenance dosing with RC Seeds every 6 weeks or so.

I am using 10,000iu a day of D3, 1000mg of Calcium Citrate and 2200mg of Fish Oil containing 720mg EPA and 480mg DHA, which was pretty much Batch's original formula.

So all seems fine. The only question I have is, now looking on here is that I now see other supplements mentioned such as Magnesium, do I need that as well or if it ain't bust and all that??

Also, I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I do get mild bouts of nausea since being on the regimen? The only other meds I take are Lansoprazole 15mg as a maintenance dose for acid reflux.



Calcium citrate at 500mg daily is sufficient and 1200mg of Fish oil is sufficient.  You are double dosing.  Perhaps this is the reason for your nausea.

Magnesium citrate at 400mg daily is recommended.


PF Wishes ;)
-Gregg in Las Vegas


I just edited my post as I realised the Kirkland Calcium tabs are 500mg for TWO tabs, it looks misleading on the tub. So I am in fact only taking 500mg a day.

As for the Omega 3 I use these START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE and it says 2-3 tabs a day, I take 2.

Are you saying Magnesium Cirate as well as the Calcium Citrate (the Kirkland brand contains Mag) or instead of?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jul 23rd, 2013 at 7:45am
Hi Chuffy,
Yes Batch's regimen includes 400 mg of magnesium citrate as welll as 500 mg of calcium citrate.
I see you are in the U.K, I am not sure what the prices are for you for all the supplements in the regimen but for me in Ireland, they are very expensive so I buy them all on Iherb.com and save a small fortune, they also have an option for posting to Ireland (and U.K also) at $4 if the packet is under 4 pounds weight. If you choose this postage option there is very little risk of the custom office intercepting the packet and load extra euros (Łs) for customs duty  :), my packets have never been intercepted with the $4 postage option.
All the best.
Thierry   :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Jul 23rd, 2013 at 5:28pm
Thanks for the info Thiery.
I am currently on tour in the US so will be paying a visit to Walmart and Costco to stock up  ;)

In fact I think a couple of these tabs a day cover the daily Calcium/Magnesium requirement nicely
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jul 25th, 2013 at 3:25pm
I've read some "load" once a week with 50,000 D3 when starting this regimen.

Anybody with experience loading D3 on a daily basis for a few weeks or so, then dropping down to the 10,000 daily, just to hopefully ensure fast effect?

As a precaution of avoiding my anticipated Fall cycle, i've been loading on 20,000 D3 daily for the past couple weeks, along with other recommended co-factors.  Of course checking test levels for progress I realize is ideal.

Thoughts?

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Jul 25th, 2013 at 4:02pm
If you're doing 20K per day, and you're 4-6 weeks away from the cycle, I'm thinking you should be fine.

The heavier 50K loading is more for folks who are currently in cycle and wanting to catch up sooner rather than later, I think.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jul 25th, 2013 at 4:07pm
Thanks Brew ;)
Last cycle began August 6th, 2011 so am two weeks away.  Been on 20,000 nightly for about 3 or 4 weeks, missed two nights and took 50,000 that following night, and maintaining 20,000 nightly.  Just don't want to overload 50,000 daily for a week or more if it could harm me.

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jenga on Jul 26th, 2013 at 3:39pm

LasVegas wrote on Jul 25th, 2013 at 4:07pm:
Thanks Brew ;)
Last cycle began August 6th, 2011 so am two weeks away.  Been on 20,000 nightly for about 3 or 4 weeks, missed two nights and took 50,000 that following night, and maintaining 20,000 nightly.  Just don't want to overload 50,000 daily for a week or more if it could harm me.

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Hi gregg,

i can not say it is harmless or not but i took two times 300000 iu of vit D in one week. Nothing happened except raising my 25(oh)d3 level from 11 to 88 ng/ml in three weeks!!! i have not experienced any health issues or side effects. just wanted to tell you the way i took vit D. i can not say it will work the same in everybody.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jul 28th, 2013 at 12:51am

jenga wrote on Jul 26th, 2013 at 3:39pm:

LasVegas wrote on Jul 25th, 2013 at 4:07pm:
Thanks Brew ;)
Last cycle began August 6th, 2011 so am two weeks away.  Been on 20,000 nightly for about 3 or 4 weeks, missed two nights and took 50,000 that following night, and maintaining 20,000 nightly.  Just don't want to overload 50,000 daily for a week or more if it could harm me.

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Hi gregg,

i can not say it is harmless or not but i took two times 300000 iu of vit D in one week. Nothing happened except raising my 25(oh)d3 level from 11 to 88 ng/ml in three weeks!!! i have not experienced any health issues or side effects. just wanted to tell you the way i took vit D. i can not say it will work the same in everybody.



Loading up to 50,000 iu has been discussed often on thread, but it seems to me that 300,000 iu is rather excessive and that the bioavailability/absorption can only go so far before one would just be wasting it, literally.  I would also question what negative impacts one would most likely experience with such an outrageous quantity of D3.

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 29th, 2013 at 3:14pm
Hey Gregg,

Good question.  It turns out loading doses of vitamin D3 are most effective when serum 25(OH)D levels are low, like < 30 ng/mL where the 25(OH)D response to dose is highest.

For example, in one study conducted in 2010, Forty-eight (48) youths classified as vitamin D3 deficient were given a single oral loading dose of 600,000 IU vitamin D3.  Their average 25(OH)D response was a gain of 60 ng/mL in three days.

Results:

The 25(OH)D level was:
15.8 +/- 6.5 ng/ml at baseline and became
77.2 +/- 30.5 ng/ml at 3 d (P < 0.001) and
62.4 +/- 26.1 ng/ml at 30 d (P < 0.001).

PTH levels concomitantly decreased from 53.0 +/- 20.1 to 38.6 +/- 17.2 pg/ml at 3 d and to 43.4 +/- 14.0 pg/ml at 30 d (P < 0.001 for both). The trends were maintained in a subgroup followed up to 90 d (P < 0.001). Mean serum Ca and P significantly increased compared to baseline, whereas serum Mg decreased at 3 d. 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D significantly increased from 46.8 +/- 18.9 to 97.8 +/- 38.3 pg/ml at 3 d (P < 0.001) and to 59.5 +/- 27.3 pg/ml at 60 d (P < 0.05).

Conclusions: A single oral dose of 600,000 IU of cholecalciferol rapidly enhances 25(OH)D and reduces PTH in young people with vitamin D deficiency.

PMID: 20660032

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In my discussions with Dr. Robert Heaney, MD about the anti-inflammatory regimen loading doses, he referred to the following chart and indicated the 25(OH)D response to a constant daily dose of vitamin D3 decreased as 25(OH)D  serum concentrations increased.

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Based on this chart, it's reasonable to assume that vitamin D3 loading doses also become less effective as the 25(OH)D3 serum concentration rises. 

Dr. Heaney also pointed out that when 25(OH)D3 rises, so does 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol).  When that happens, another enzyme comes into play that enables the kidneys to convert increasing amounts of 25(OH)D3 into 24,25(OH)2D3, an inactive metabolite with respect to calcium homeostasis.

This metabolite is part of the body's vitamin D3 self regulation mechanisms that prevents the buildup of serum calcium, the primary indication of vitamin D3 toxicity.

Based on this information and other data on loading doses, I selected a once a week loading dose of 50,000 IU vitamin D3 on top of 20,000 IU/day as a conservative dosing schedule to elevate 25(OH)D serum concentrations into the therapeutic range of 60 to 110 ng/mL where the favorable responses to the anti-inflammatory regimen have been reported.

You can find a lot more info and medical evidence on vitamin D3 loading doses at the following link:

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The takeaway from this discussion is loading doses of 50,000 IU vitamin D3 once a week on top of 10,000 to 20,000 IU/day are safe and conservative, but lab tests should be done each month until the 25(OH)D serum concentration is up around 85 ng/mL when the dosing schedule should be reduced to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.  Without a lab test, you're shooting in the dark.

Higher loading doses are also reasonable as long as they are used under a physician's supervision.

The final takeaway is the body consumes more magnesium with higher doses of vitamin D3 so it's reasonable and prudent to up the daily intake of magnesium to the RDA of 400 mg/day when taking loading doses of vitamin D3.

Hope this helps...  We'll be in Las Vegas for Thanksgiving...  I look forward to see you and Zurich.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jul 29th, 2013 at 8:19pm
Thanks for clearing that up so professionally Pete ;)

Z and I look forward to reuniting with you and Joyce too.

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by didgens on Aug 1st, 2013 at 2:23pm
Hey Batch ,, heres another thought to add to your D3 if is hasnt been posted here somewhere already.  I found this article that says D3 increases elasticity of blood vessels .. and that if you have stiffened blood vessels it can relax them ? perhaps the stiff vessels are putting pressure on that Trigimenal nerve and eventually the D3 will set them back into and "elastic condition" so they dont put so much pressure on the nerve ? just a thought.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Shakey on Aug 1st, 2013 at 3:47pm
Hey,

I haven't posted for some months in this topic. Here is my update.

I started the regimen on March 1st and I am still on it. Unfortunately it hasn't ended my cycle. There were changes in the pattern of my cycle, like reduction of the intensity and frequency of attacks, shifting timing (from nocturnal to daily and vice versa) and increase in shadows.

I am taking all of the required supplements. I've tried bumping magnesium, cutting calcium and the lab tests were at around 100 for some time, I don't know the current values, probably should get tested, just to know. I watch what I eat, get plenty of greens and seeds. And I am fairly healthy.

This is by far my longest cycle, going on 8 months (so far max 6 wks), and I am unable to shake it off. I feel like I'm just at the brink of getting the beast dormant, because I honestly don't get KIPs over 5, oxygen, coffee and redbull work great, I even get a couple of completely pain free and shadows free days in between now and then.

I've also tried busting with shrooms several times for the last two and a half months with limited success. Positive for the mental state, but hasn't ended my cycle. At least not for more than 10 days.

Nothing seems to work really, I just have this feeling that I am doing something slightly wrong.

Trying to stay positive  ;)

Jure

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on Aug 1st, 2013 at 9:40pm
Hey Shakey,

An 8 month cycle... that really sucks. I feel for you.

As far as what could be preventing the regimen from helping you go pf., Batch mentions several conditions that could.  First you said your last 25(oh)d was at 100, if that is in ng/ml , you're well within pf the range, if its nmol/l you have a ways to go. The thing for me seems to be a low ph (too much acid). I've been pf for a few months by increasing artiel ph through 3-4 baking soda and water tonics a day. Also the "GOMBS" diet will do the same thing. Salvia tests strips could tell you if this is the case.
Just an idea, best of luck!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by George on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 10:49pm
As I'm sure many of you know, I'm a long-term, clockwork episodic. I started when I was 13. I'm 59 now.

During the first 20 years, I invariably cycled twice a year. As I've aged, the normal, 6-week cycles have gotten farther and farther apart. The last four cycles were 3 years between.

That being said, I've been on the D-3 regimen for the past year (about the time when I expected to see a new cycle begin in 2012) to see if it might act as a preventive.

I've now gone four complete years without a cycle. Not even a hint of a shadow. It's the longest I've gone without CH--ever.

Can I attribute it to the D-3 regimen? Not with any certainty... After all, the thing seems to be fading on its own.

I will say, however, that I intend to continue the D-3 regimen. Near as I can tell, it isn't doing any harm.

As for the thing, I've lived with it for a long time. I know it well, and I know when it's skulking around in the neighborhood.

All I can say is that it's nowhere around, and I like it that way. ;)

All the best,

George

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Aug 4th, 2013 at 12:30am
Whilst for any one person it is impossible to ever be certain if going pain free is due to the vitamin D3 or not. However with the large number of people going pain free there is good evidence that the D3 is very much having a significant impact.

But to move this to being proof then it needs a well run medical trial with a reasonable number of people in the trial. This would need to be a double blind trial, which means that people will be randomised, so some people will get the D3 and others won't, with neither the people in the trial or those interacting with them knowing who is in which pool. This helps remove sources of bias.

This is the next step that is needed for this approach and it is one that can help convince neurologists worldwide that this isn't an internet fad but something that has been proven to work.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on Aug 5th, 2013 at 3:26am
Hi to all,

The D3 Regimen is working for me, I'm on a PF stretch, unequaled since 1996.  ;D
Thanks again Batch.

In adapting the "on-shelf" version of the regimen for CHers in OZ, I went to great lengths to make sure Batch received full credit for his ongoing work. Also directing all enquirers back to Batch's original threads "123 days PF" and "Anti-inflammatory regimen and Survey." with appropriate links, as the "recipe" is always being reviewed, added to and may change at any time - clearly a potential safety issue for some contraindications, drug interactions and/or co-morbid conditions.

It seems these folks here have lifted the regimen for their site, without any links, or credit to Batch. It's great to see the regimen getting out to CHers, for sure. PF is what we're after and I know we're all in this for the same reasons.
But without Batch's name on it?
They even have a section stating this of material posted on their site:

"Unauthorized use of Copyrighted material
Under no circumstance should material copyrighted by another party that is prohibited from duplication be posted on this site without the express permission of the copyright owner or their delegate. Copyrighted material that is not accompanied with a letter of permission will be removed from the site."
C'mon people!!!!

The survey section of the "Basic and complete Anti-inflammatory regimen Treatment protocol and dosing guide" has also been removed, denying Batch and participating CHers their hard earned survey data that will hopefully build the empirical evidence to get this to clinical trial stage. (Hang in there Mike!)

But, I reckon Batch should always be credited for his work.
Any researcher deserves credit, if not an honorable mention in this case, for their work.

I've had my creative output nicked before too, and whilst flattering... I think the originator of the research and the original source should always be credited. Medical Journals do it.

I know Batch is humble and may have seen this, perhaps even given permission, I don't know... but it would be nice to see Batch's name on this and links back to the source, should the basic regimen info change over time.

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This word document version is lifted straight off this site:

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Batch is always "V/R" and signs off with it!
Credit where it's due!
Just my 2 cents...

Cheers, Ben.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 5th, 2013 at 8:28am
hey ben,
               I agree with you 100 % with your comments,
  plagiarism isn't a nice thing.
but I don't think batch is in this for the accolades or the rights, he has a passion about ch sufferer's.
im only new to it, but if he was concerned about this, and protected the concept until such time as it could be some how patented, well 100's of people would be worse off for the wait.
we all know the tireless hours and personal imput batch gives to many on a personal level, me included in the development of the regime,  but if, its being used else where with no reference to batch, that's a shame, but think of the people it will be helping, that's the important point.
would we all like batch to somehow gain some monetory gain for his work, hell yeh, would he ?  I recon he probably would, , but theres nothing that can be done to protect the regime from those who wish to take it, due to its origin on forums like this.   
a shame yes ben, but, unfortunately a fact of todays life.
but at the end of the day, we all know who is responsible for it.
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Judge_Smails on Aug 5th, 2013 at 1:08pm
Just wanted to provide an update for everyone.  I started on the regiment in early April or late March of 2012 in anticipation of my cycle (which comes every other year).  I started taking 12,000iu D3 daily and added a 20,000iu once a week loading dose.  My cycle never started and in Nov of 2012 I got my levels checked and they were at 140! 

I eliminated the loading dose and since about the first of the year have cut my daily dose down to 8000iu.  I got my blood work done again 2 weeks ago and it came back at 112.  My cycle still has not appeared and I have now passed 3 years since the end of my last cycle.  I almost feel guilty that I've been pain free all of this time when so many others are still suffering.  I can't thank Batch enough for all of his work.  I was skeptical when I first read his initial post.  After all, we've all heard about fly by night "cures".  But after reading how many people were being helped I figured I'd give it a try (but still stock up on my prednisone and verapamil).  I know that things can change, and that, for now, there is no "cure".  But, it's over a year later I've still got those prescription bottles collecting dust in my medicine cabinet.  Thanks again Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 5th, 2013 at 2:01pm
Judge_Smails,

Thank you for the wonderful update and kind words.  It's updates like yours that encourage CH'ers sitting on the sideline in a quandary over what to take next to avoid the terrible pain of our condtion, to give the anti-inflammatory regimen a try. 

It's particularly encouraging to hear of a response like yours to this regimen from an episodic CH'er.  All too often, end of cycle or use of another preventative clouds the causal relationship between taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 and a cessation of cluster headache symptoms.  Sailing pain free through a regularly scheduled cluster headache cycle while taking this regimen is strong evidence of its efficacy.

Your 25(OH)D level is great and it's clearly a good therapeutic level for you.  Yes it's a little higher than the "normal" reference range of 30 to 100 ng/mL, but you need to realize the hundreds of thousands of tests for this vitamin D3 metabolite that were used to determine the "normal" reference range for 25(OH)D were taken from a population of people, the majority of whom are vitamin D3 deficient... That shifts the bell shaped, gaussian distribution (normal) curve decidedly to the left resulting in a lower reference range.

The estimates vary among the experts, but the incidence of vitamin D3 deficiency (a 25(OH)D serum concentration ≤ 30 ng/mL, [75 nmol/L]) here in the US is likely North of 50%.

The bottom line is keeping your 25(OH)D serum concentration up in the range you're presently enjoying, buys you a week to 10 days of reserves in case you miss a dose or catch a viral bug that consumes available 25(OH)D and the active vitamin D3 metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3 at much higher rates than normal.

Take care and thanks again for the wonderful update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by curtiss on Aug 11th, 2013 at 12:44pm
I started the regimen of 10,000 iu of vitamin d3 with immediate results, my nightly pain after an hour of sleep has disappeared.  I have added in fish oil to the vitamin d3 too.  my ch started again after a few years in remission, i previously had been on meds, oxygen, and headache buster spray with good success, a few headaches over the past few years, but headache buster spray and o2 made it go away.  this recent attack has been a bear!  after getting on sumatriptan and prednisone to treat the pain for a couple of weeks i was prescribed meds to prevent headaches referred to on this blog a dopo max, but wasn't to interested in taking another chemical.  fortunately found the vitamin d3 regimen and have had fantastic results!  some pressure sensed behind my right eye, but no real pain for 24+ hours.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 11th, 2013 at 2:08pm
Great news Curtis...3.5 years pain free for me on the Batch Regimen, I stay on a 5000 unit a day dosing year round now. Nothing but good stuff to say for it. Here's hoping it works as well for you.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by E-Double on Aug 12th, 2013 at 7:25pm
Hiya Pete!

Congrats to all.
I followed to a T with exception to the fishoils as it is a blood thinner and I had adverse reaction.
Unfortunately it didn't do the trick for me.
I have been on it since Easter.

Best of luck!!!

E

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 13th, 2013 at 2:40am
that's a shame e-double,
   im just in the infancy and hoping, but have so far had favourable results.
  what serum level of d3 were you at ?

colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by FrankF on Aug 16th, 2013 at 10:07pm
I started the D3 regimen about two weeks ago and am also on verapamil which I started at 180 mg once per day. I read that calcium citrate can reduce the effectiveness of verapamil so I spread them so I do the verapamil early in the morning, and D3 regimen at night.

My neurologist now has me taking verapamil twice per day, making it more difficult to spread things out.

Could I substitute something for the calcium that has the same benefit, but doen't interfere with the verapamil?


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 17th, 2013 at 1:00am
Frank,

I'm neither a doctor nor a nutritionist so I cannot and will not suggest something contrary to your neurologist's prescribed treatment for your cluster headaches.

What I can do is provide you with information you can discuss with your neurologist.
'
The first thing to discuss is your serum concentration of 25(OH)D.  25(OH)D is the serum level metabolite of vitamin D3 that's used to measure its status.  You need this lab test and your neurologist should be obliged to honor your request for it. 


The normal reference range for 25(OH)D is 30 to 100 ng/mL.  Less than 30 ng/mL is classified as vitamin D3 deficient.  If your lab test for 25(OH)D comes back less than 30 ng/mL, your neurologist should address this deficiency...  Not doing so is a breach of medical ethics.

Survey data indicates the average 25(OH)D serum concentration before starting the anti-inflammatory regimen is 28.7 ng/mL, (71.75 nmol/L).

If your lab results come back between 30 and 60 ng/mL, and this is highly probable given you've already started vitamin D3 therapy, your neurologist will likely interpret this result as "normal" and say nothing about vitamin D3 therapy.

While 25(OH)D serum concentrations in that range may be sufficient to prevent rickets, osteoporosis and osteomalacia...  data from other CH'ers here at CH.com and the online survey of CH'ers using this regimen, indicate serum concentrations of 25(OH)D below 60 ng/mL are not sufficient to prevent cluster headache.  See the following chart and show it to your neurologist.

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Regarding the calcium citrate... you can skip it for now... but be sure to take up to 400 mg/day magnesium in the form of magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate in that order of preference, 10 mg/day zinc, 1 mg/day boron, and Vitamin A (Retinol) at 900 mcg/day (3,000/day IU).  I've found that Centrum Silver is formulated to cover the above supplements in adequate amounts.

The Omega-3 Fish Oil is also an important part of this regimen... It acts as an anti-inflammatory agent and also aids in vitamin D3 absorption.

10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is adequate for most CH'ers.  That said, some have used an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule of 20,000 IU/day plus a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose of vitamin D3.

An aggressive vitamin D3 dosing schedule like this builds 25(OH)D serum concentrations at a faster rate and that usually results in less time to a favorable response... like going pain free.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TeeJ2379 on Aug 20th, 2013 at 5:41pm
Hi All,

Hoping Im not jinxing myself here.  But I've been feel a lot better the past two days. 

Generally my mornings are really good and PF.  As the day wears on , I get a pain in my jaw and cheek, that just gets more and more intense. I usually knock it back with a Monster Java drink and maybe a naproxen.

A few days ago I got a PM from Batch and he said to try to 50,000 IU D3 for a few days.  Well day number 2 here and I'm feeling pretty good even after a stressful day at work.  Hoping to get my d3 tested soon to make sure I'm not over doing it.  Going to do d3 at 50k for one more day, then back down to 10k and see how it goes.

I think my last test had me at 59 ng/ml - calling my GP tomorrow to get another test scheduled.  I've been on the vitamin regiment for at least 2.5 months I think.

Thanks all, and thanks to Batch for reaching out.

Fingers crossed I'm going to be able to back off my Verapamil here soon..

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 26th, 2013 at 11:04am
Hey TeeJ,

Howzit going?

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TeeJ2379 on Aug 27th, 2013 at 2:24am
Still going OK - If I could get some good sleep I think I would feel better - fortunately its not CH keeping me up , but a 4 month old baby girl at home :)  A much better reason to lose sleep :)  No CH still, and only some minor cheek and jaw pain during the day , but I feel like that is due to my lack of sleep.  I've tapered back down to 10k D3 as we discussed and no adverse affects.  GP was actually on vacation so he was not able to schedule my D3 test - hoping to hear back on Thursday when hes back in the office.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by kimji523 on Aug 27th, 2013 at 5:41pm
Hi all,

I just discovered the site and and it's very comforting to know that so many people are sharing so others can find relief.

Batch, I wanted to ask about your regimen because my CHs only come at certain times of the year.  I have breaks of about 4 to 8 months of being pain free and then they'll come for about 3-4 weeks; then another 4-8 months nothing.

I never change anything routine in my life, whether it's food, alcohol, sleep, etc, and whether or not I'm in my CH cycle or not.  So, in your opinion, do you think it may still be something to do with D3?  I'm just thinking of the pain free periods (i'm in a CH cycle now, but before this was Dec of '12) and thinking why my D3 levels would fluctuate cyclically, if that's the case.

I haven't gotten bloodwork done yet; just wanted an opinion first.  I'm just on generic sumatriptan and it seems to work most of the time if i get it early.

Thanks for any input,

TK

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TeeJ2379 on Aug 27th, 2013 at 5:52pm
I don't want to jump on Batch's response, but as I understand it, your description of your CH's are pretty common.  Most folks have periods of PF months or weeks, followed by weeks or months of painful episodes.

Also as you read through his regiment found here:

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you will see that he recommends that people stay on the regiment for several months, and if it works to stay on it for life as it has other benefits and is generally healthy for most people. 

In your case depending how low your Vit D3 level is it may take several months to get it up to the right level, in which case your current cycle maybe over - so most likely you would want to stay on it until your next cycle is suppose to start to see if its working.   

This regiment is not a cure for CH, but a remedy that keeps CH at bay instead of pharmaceuticals, which have bad side affects and are expensive..This regiment is in expensive and so far has no side affects and lots of positive effects for most people.


kimji523 wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
Hi all,

I just discovered the site and and it's very comforting to know that so many people are sharing so others can find relief.

Batch, I wanted to ask about your regimen because my CHs only come at certain times of the year.  I have breaks of about 4 to 8 months of being pain free and then they'll come for about 3-4 weeks; then another 4-8 months nothing.

I never change anything routine in my life, whether it's food, alcohol, sleep, etc, and whether or not I'm in my CH cycle or not.  So, in your opinion, do you think it may still be something to do with D3?  I'm just thinking of the pain free periods (i'm in a CH cycle now, but before this was Dec of '12) and thinking why my D3 levels would fluctuate cyclically, if that's the case.

I haven't gotten bloodwork done yet; just wanted an opinion first.  I'm just on generic sumatriptan and it seems to work most of the time if i get it early.

Thanks for any input,

TK


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Aug 27th, 2013 at 9:02pm
Question about the daily Magnesium intake.  I could only find Magnesium Citrate in 250mg doses.  So with two of those doses per day, would 500mg of Magnesium Citrate be too much?  That would be on top of 80mg of Magnesium Oxide in my Calcium Citrate supplement and another 50mg of Magnesium Oxide in my multi-vitamin.

After adding all that up, is it too much?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 27th, 2013 at 10:15pm

slacker032 wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 9:02pm:
Question about the daily Magnesium intake.  I could only find Magnesium Citrate in 250mg doses.  So with two of those doses per day, would 500mg of Magnesium Citrate be too much?  That would be on top of 80mg of Magnesium Oxide in my Calcium Citrate supplement and another 50mg of Magnesium Oxide in my multi-vitamin.

After adding all that up, is it too much?



My guess is that is too much as the recommended dosage for Magnesium, preferably Citrate form, is 400mg/daily. 

A few weeks ago, I was questioned if I spend a good deal of my day on the toilet because of 400mg/daily, so can only imagine what 630mg would do to one's digestive system. :o

Can the 250mg be cut in half or thirds? 

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:09pm
Slacker,

I'm with Gregg... 400 mg/day is more than sufficient unless your mega dosing on vitamin D3 over 20,000 IU/day.  In that case, 500 to 600 mg/day should be sufficient.

You'll know when you get too much magnesium... you'll get lose as a goose.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:25pm
Actually, looks like each softgel is 125mg so if I take 3 gels, that would be 375. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:25pm
Hey TK,

Welcome to CH.com.  TeeJ is spot on with every thing he said...

Do try to get the 25(OH)D lab test and be sure to discuss this regimen with your neurologist or PCP.  Just be aware there are no other studies on the use of vitamin D3 as a cluster headache preventative other than what you'll find at this site.

Accordingly, most physicians will toss the BS flag when you ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D.  If they do, wager a Coke & candy bar if your 25(OH)D serum concentration comes back anywhere greater than 30 ng/mL

If it comes back < 30 ng/mL, it's ethical that he treats the vitamin D3 deficiency...  In that case, roll out the info on the anti-inflammatory regimen...  and make another wager... 

If your cluster headaches dissipate when your 25(OH)D goes over 60 ng/mL... there's no charge for the office call...

Guts ball...  Go for it!   The odds are in your favor and most physicians are clueless when it comes to cluster headaches or vitamin D3 therapy...  It's like taking candy from a baby...

Take care and please keep us posted,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:28pm
And if I add the 50 and 80mg of Magnesium Oxide from my multi and calcium citrate, that would be a total for 505mg of Magnesium.  That should be ok right, especially considering the low bioavalability of Magnesium oxide.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:36pm

slacker032 wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:28pm:
And if I add the 50 and 80mg of Magnesium Oxide from my multi and calcium citrate, that would be a total for 505mg of Magnesium.  That should be ok right, especially considering the low bioavalability of Magnesium oxide.


Your toilet will answer your question. ;D  Might consider switching name brands when you're able to ensure proper dosages. 

Good luck!

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:45pm

LasVegas wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:36pm:

slacker032 wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:28pm:
And if I add the 50 and 80mg of Magnesium Oxide from my multi and calcium citrate, that would be a total for 505mg of Magnesium.  That should be ok right, especially considering the low bioavalability of Magnesium oxide.


Your toilet will answer your question. ;D  Might consider switching name brands when you're able to ensure proper dosages. 

Good luck!

-Gregg in Las Vegas


Don't really have much of a choice since it's the only one available at the store. I'll probably shop online for a more uniform dosage but this is what's available to me at the moment.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:53pm
Try Vitamin Shoppe for Magnesium Citrate.
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Bottle cost $18 bucks and has 300 tablets AKA 150 days worth of 200 mg tablets. 
Take 2 per day = 400mg/day dosage.


-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Aug 28th, 2013 at 12:05am

LasVegas wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:53pm:
Try Vitamin Shoppe for Magnesium Citrate.
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Bottle cost $18 bucks and has 300 tablets AKA 150 days worth of 200 mg tablets. 
Take 2 per day = 400mg/day dosage.


-Gregg in Las Vegas


But don't I still have to factor in the Magnesium Oxide I get from the Calcium Citrate and multi-vitamin.  With Vitamin Shoppe dosage, it would come out to 530mg total.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Aug 28th, 2013 at 12:13am

slacker032 wrote on Aug 28th, 2013 at 12:05am:

LasVegas wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:53pm:
Try Vitamin Shoppe for Magnesium Citrate.
START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Bottle cost $18 bucks and has 300 tablets AKA 150 days worth of 200 mg tablets. 
Take 2 per day = 400mg/day dosage.


-Gregg in Las Vegas


But don't I still have to factor in the Magnesium Oxide I get from the Calcium Citrate and multi-vitamin.  With Vitamin Shoppe dosage, it would come out to 530mg total.



And to avoid additional mineral dosages from other supplements, get this Calcium Citrate bottle of 300 tablets AKA 150 days worth, total $20 bucks.

Each tablet is 250mg with no other ingredient. 
Take 2 per day = 500mg/day as recommended.

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Your Multi-vitamin of additional mineral is minimal and should be of no concern.  From what I understand, your multi should include Vitamin A, K and Zinc.

-Gregg in Las Vegas



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 28th, 2013 at 12:14am
Magnesium oxide has a bioavialability of less than 5%...  Accordingly, your present intake of magnesium is likely adequate to less than adequate... 

If you switch to 400 mg/day magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate, in that order, you'll have a much higher mangesium bioavailability... 

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Aug 28th, 2013 at 12:17am
Thanks guys.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TeeJ2379 on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 12:23am

LasVegas wrote on Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:53pm:
Try Vitamin Shoppe for Magnesium Citrate.
START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Bottle cost $18 bucks and has 300 tablets AKA 150 days worth of 200 mg tablets. 
Take 2 per day = 400mg/day dosage.


-Gregg in Las Vegas


Yup that's the stuff I take for MG - Sam's Club / Cosco have good prices on most of the other stuff too..If not Vitamin Shoppe seems to have the stuff too.  I really like that site and there is a actual location near my house...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain on Sep 6th, 2013 at 3:41am
Hey Batch,

A certain Cluster Headache specialist & Professor of Pharmacology owes me about a slab of coke and half a truckload of chocolate bars then >:(...
I'm off to collect. :P

Cheers, Ben.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 7th, 2013 at 12:50pm
Hey Ben,

Thanks for the update...  Howz the good professor doing?

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Sep 11th, 2013 at 10:41am
I 65 and was diagnosed in 2005 by my ENT (go figure). My cycles have been every 2 years in the early spring and last about 6 weeks. My peak involves Kip 7-9 every 1-2 hrs only at night with the good possibility of one if I sleep over 45 minutes in a nap. My family Dr started me on Verapamil 240mg ER  twice a day since I had high BP, hoping he could kill 2 birds etc. My cycle stopped in a week.

In my Mar 2012 cycle I started the D3 regimen with his blessing, taking 10,000 D3 and  400mg Ultra Mag.. I was already on 2,000 fish oil. In about 2 weeks my hits were fewer and the Kips dropped to 4-6 each night, in another week, they stopped. I dropped my D3 to 5,000 but continued everything else. Dr tested my D25 levels in May and they were 43.5 ng/ml. He retested in May of this year...42.5 ng/ml.

Fast forward to a month ago when a cycle surfaced that involved only daytime hits with PF days here and there. I added 5,000 D3 when they began and saw a little improvement. They have now switched to nighttime hits only at Kip 8-9 but only 1-2 a night so I am trying not to complain! I added another D3 last night bringing my total to 15,000.

I currently take the D3 in the am, the mag and fish oil are taken am and pm, split up.  My calcium levels have always been high and I am on verapamil so I do not take the Cal citrate.  Should I be taking them all together or does it matter? When should I have my D25 retested since I have gone from 5,000 D3 to 15,000 daily?

All in all when I think of how horrid my cycles have been in the past most nights getting hit every 1-2 hrs at Kip 7-9...the D3 regimen has definitely made a difference!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Sep 11th, 2013 at 11:36am
Thanks for the response Pattik! I think I did read something about taking the D3 with the biggest meal and that's probably because it has the highest fat content (at least in my house that's dinner). Here's hoping those shadows fade away to PF days!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by metrolamar on Sep 11th, 2013 at 1:08pm
Hello All...
I have been taking the D3 reg for the past two weeks and Batch has been in touch with me helping (Thanks Batch!!!).  I took the D3 test after a week of loading up on the D3 and my level was 39.9,  A long way off from the 85+ that it needs to be. Therefore we know it takes time to build up to level needed to be pain free.
Yesterday was eight solid weeks of misery for me,  no sleep at all hardly due to hits every hour.  Try to work everyday,  taking Zomig (my stock is running low after eight weeks).  Life just sux during these cycles,  today I feel like I have a bowl of rice krispys in my ears...lots of crackling and popping.  My left eye is swollen quite a bit today (had never really noticed the swelling of the eye before).  Hoping for pain free time soon for me and everybody!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Sep 11th, 2013 at 2:33pm
Sorry to hear about your hits. I too went through the high kip every hour for weeks on end. There is just nothing left the next day...I don't know how you work! It got so after number 3 or 4 I would just stay up. Not worth risking another hit.

Praying the D3 kicks in soon and you get some relief!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 14th, 2013 at 7:19pm

metrolamar wrote on Sep 11th, 2013 at 1:08pm:
Hello All...
I have been taking the D3 reg for the past two weeks and Batch has been in touch with me helping (Thanks Batch!!!).  I took the D3 test after a week of loading up on the D3 and my level was 39.9,  A long way off from the 85+ that it needs to be. Therefore we know it takes time to build up to level needed to be pain free.
Yesterday was eight solid weeks of misery for me,  no sleep at all hardly due to hits every hour.  Try to work everyday,  taking Zomig (my stock is running low after eight weeks).  Life just sux during these cycles,  today I feel like I have a bowl of rice krispys in my ears...lots of crackling and popping.  My left eye is swollen quite a bit today (had never really noticed the swelling of the eye before).  Hoping for pain free time soon for me and everybody!!!!


Stick with it!  This regimen plus the Cluster Buster method has been a godsend.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by metrolamar on Sep 14th, 2013 at 8:00pm
Thanks for the kind words guys...
This cycle seems endless but I have been down this road enough times that I know it will stop one of these days or weeks. Normally Saturday and Sunday are days that I suffer through without any meds (just O2).  But today I had to go into Atlanta for continuing education for work.  Zomig nasal spray for breakfast and then eight hours of class.  I really did not want to go class today but I survived and made it back home.  Just really tired after barely sleeping due to 6 hits through the night.  These headaches will not let me sleep.
Again thanks to all and Pain free wishes for all my Cluster Family. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Sep 15th, 2013 at 6:07pm
Hoping the D-3 kicks in for ya soon...it's got me over 3 years pain free. Hang in there.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Franz on Sep 16th, 2013 at 6:24pm
Hi!
Just some thoughts on my test result and progress with the vit regime.
I've been on it for 3 weeks now, finally got to take the test.
Started 26 aug and test was done 5 sept.
Result came back 130 nmol/l.

From getting hit 7-8 times a day it went down to a couple of hits per day after 48 hours. After a week 1-2 hits every other day. Week 3 just feeling shadows, but all the time.
This week very light shadows except night when they get worse so no good sleep.

Seems I got out of the intense part this episode much faster thanx to the regime. But maybe I could get rid of shadows by taking a larger dose? 130 nmol, it's a good result?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 16th, 2013 at 8:44pm

Franz wrote on Sep 16th, 2013 at 6:24pm:
130 nmol, it's a good result?

You're getting there. You'll want to be at 150 nmol/L at the very least. Probably closer to the 200 nmol/L to achieve lasting relief.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Sep 16th, 2013 at 8:49pm
I'm wondering when I should have my D25 retested since I've upped my dose to 15,000? When I was on a maintenance dose of 5,000 D3 my levels were tested each year and measured 43ng. I did not have any cycles so I stayed on the 5,000. My 1st fall cycle ever started in August and I immediately increased my dose to 10,000 and then up to 15,000 on Sept 10.  I also take 400 mag citrate, 2,000 fish oil and 240 verapamil (twice a day).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 16th, 2013 at 11:06pm
Hey Franz,

130 nmol/L equals 52 ng/mL... (divide by 2.5 to convert nmol/L to ng/mL), so you're responding to the 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... but you're serum concentration of 25(OH)D is still below the therapeutic range of 60 to 110 ng/mL where most CH'ers have reported experiencing a lasting PF response to this regimen.

The fastest way to a pain free response is to do what other CH'ers have done... They bumped their vitamin D3 intake up to 25,000 IU/day and added a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose.  Doing this will help you reach the target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 80 to 85 ng/mL a lot faster.

If you'll check the 25(OH)D response curve for a 10,000 IU/day dose of vitamin D3 in the following chart you'll see a couple things.  Your 25(OH)D response is normal for three weeks at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... and your starting serum concentration was likely South of (less than) 75 nmol/L, (30 ng/mL) which is considered vitamin D3 deficient.

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Try to see your PCP or neurologist to get another lab test for 25(OH)D as soon as you've been pain free for at least a week...  At that point you can drop your vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day. 

As you can see from the chart above, a maintenance dose of 10,000 results in an average 25(OH)D response of 200 to 212 nmol/L, (80 to 85 ng/mL) after 4 to 6 months where the gain in 25(OH)D levels off.  As our bodies make vitamin D3 when exposed to the UV-B in sunlight... they have built-in mechanisms to regulate its production and metabolism...

The reason a 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 to 85 is important is due to other vitamin D3 consumers... Our immune system is one of the largest consumers...  It can gobble up vitamin D3, [25(OH)D], rapidly.  Without supplementation, that can deplete 25(OH)D reserves below the therapeutic level for cluster headaches < 150 nmol/L, (60 ng/mL) in as little as a week to 10 days.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Sep 17th, 2013 at 8:02am
OK....I am unsure about what you call a normal level in the Vitamin D 25 OH....I am in Texas and my doctors  say above 40 and below 100 is good.  I was told 100 and above can be toxic....

Are talking about a different scale here? 

Love y'all
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Franz on Sep 17th, 2013 at 8:49am
Thanx for the guidance Batch and Brew!

I'll be sure to step it up some to get to the higher level faster. Looks like I'm spot on that diagram. That's just some good science I guess :)

My lab report suggested that the normal range ( for normal people I guess)is between 30-60ng/ml , just like some reference. So I'll guess they agree that higher levels isn't bad for you.

Take care out there!
/Franz

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Emjay on Sep 17th, 2013 at 12:28pm
I started the D3 regimen at the end of my spring cycle, after I was tested at 39.  I loaded up and then eased at 15000IU after 2 weeks because my hits were still coming, but at much reduced pain level and easily managed with just a Rock Star or O2!  I need to get another test but, so far, the fall episode has not made an appearance.  I am usually hit at the beginning of September, starting with the 1am hit, then by now, a 5am and then a 1pm.  My hits usually last 2 hours without interventions.  I use O2, Rock Star, and imitrix injections (2 a day).  I am glad for this regimen as the preventatives were becoming non-existent for me without getting into lithium, which I did not want to do.  I can't begin to tell you how thrilled I am that I sleep through the night and enjoy the fall weather without pain.  I do take 15000IU of the D3; I am getting another test in the next few weeks.  My guess?  I am in the sweet range!  Phew!
:D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 17th, 2013 at 12:55pm

godsjoy777 wrote on Sep 17th, 2013 at 8:02am:
OK....I am unsure about what you call a normal level in the Vitamin D 25 OH....I am in Texas and my doctors  say above 40 and below 100 is good.  I was told 100 and above can be toxic....

Are talking about a different scale here? 

Love y'all
Karen

"Normal" doesn't apply to CH'ers. And if your docs are telling you that 100 and above can be toxic, I'd either be looking for new docs or looking to reeducate the ones I have.

Obviously you don't want to overdo anything, but as far as I can tell, you could maintain a level of around 200ng/ml without going toxic. That's good because you only need to be between 60-110 ng/ml.

I've been swallowing 10,000iu/day for well over a year now, and the highest mine has ever been is 74ng/ml.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 18th, 2013 at 1:05am
Brew's comments on vitamin D3 dosing, 25(OH)D serum concentrations and vitamin D3 toxicity are spot on!

A recent study titled Vitamin D Supplement Doses and Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin
D in the Range Associated with Cancer Prevention
by Garland, French, Baggerly and Heayey concluded that: Universal intake of up to 40,000 IU vitamin D per day is unlikely to result in vitamin D toxicity.

VitaminDwiki has a number of excellent charts like the following on vitamin D3 dosing and loading doses to achieve a target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 50 to 70 ng/mL... 

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It's important to note that this 25(OH)D target range is for normal people... As CH'ers...  we're far from normal as Brew pointed out.

We suffer from a condition characterized by neurogenic inflammation... and so far, the data we've collected here at CH.com and from the online survey of CH'ers using the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 indicate we need an average target 25(OH)D serum concentration around 85 ng/mL ±10 ng/mL to remain pain free of cluster headaches.

It is also important to note that we are way out in front of conventional medical science dosing on vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day in order to maintain an average target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 85 ng/mL to prevent our cluster headaches. 

There are no other RCTs on this topic.  The best and only information on the safety and efficacy of the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is right here at CH.com.  So far since December of 2010... I'm unaware of any reports of adverse reactions to this regimen that required medical attention...  and the efficacy is holding steady at 80%.

I've done some recent reading on an RCT reporting the efficacy of verapamil as a prophylaxis for episodic cluster headache sufferers...  See attached pdf file for more info.

Verapamil reduced attack frequency and the use of abortive agents in episodic cluster headache

Design:  Randomised {allocation concealed*},† blinded {clinicians, patients, and outcome assessors*},† placebo controlled trial with 2 week follow up.

Setting:  3 outpatient clinics in Italy.

Patients: 30 adults between 18 and 60 years of age (mean age 44 y, 90% men) who were outpatients and had a diagnosis of episodic cluster headache (International Headache Society criteria) with > 1 previous cluster period lasting > 1 month and who had been in a cluster period for < 10 days and had an expected duration of the remainder of the cluster period of >20 days.

Exclusion criteria were liver or kidney disease, cardiopathological findings contraindicating verapamil use, psychiatric disorder, use of antidepressants or antipsychotics, drug or alcohol abuse, or previous adynamicileus. Follow up was 100%.

Intervention:  After a 5 day run in period, patients were allocated to verapamil, 120 mg 3 times/day (n = 15), or placebo, 3 times/day (n = 15), for 2 weeks.

Main outcome measures:  Self reported frequency of cluster headache attacks and use of abortive agents.

Main results:  During the first week of treatment, the verapamil and placebo groups did not differ for median numbers of attacks/day (1.1 v 1.7) or abortive agents used/day (1.0 v 1.2).

During the second week of treatment, verapamil was more effective than placebo in reducing both the number of attacks (median 0.6 v 1.65/d, p < 0.001) and the number of abortive agents used (median 0.5 v 1.2/d, p < 0.004). Fewer patients in the verapamil group than in the placebo group were non-responders (ie, having a < 50% reduction in attack frequency) {p < 0.001}.  Side effects experienced during the treatment period were mild.

Verapamil v placebo for prophylactic treatment of episodic cluster headache at 2 weeks

Outcome         Verapamil     Placebo     RRR     (95% CI)
Non-response       20%          100%      80%    (53 to 93) 1 (1 to 2)

Because this RCT was done to the gold standard: randomized, blinded, placebo controlled...  it carries more weight as medical evidence than our online survey of CH'ers.

Data from that survey indicate 80% of the 75 paticipating episodic CH'ers experienced a favorable response with a significant (>50) reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH and 62% experienced a sustained pain free response.

Most of the CH'ers in this survey who experienced a favorable response experienced that response in first week.

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You can draw your own conclusions...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Evid_Based_Med-2000-Therapeutics-178.pdf (151 KB | 1 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dhjacks on Sep 18th, 2013 at 2:05pm
Hi Batch,
I can't thank you enough.  Update.  Clusters for 15 years.  The past 5 years they've been 1 year on, 1 year off.  Last year I started my cycle in March, I started the D3 in June and they aborted in 2 weeks.  I got lazy with the D3 around December and stopped taking it.  I had my serum vitamin d tested in June and it was 17 (sounds low, low).  In July I started having shadows and immediately started my D3 at 15k/day.  A few days later I had a full blown cluster HA, and then a few shadows and then nothing.  I've essentially had 15 months pain free, including 9 months that should have been in cycle.  Very happy!!!
Don

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 18th, 2013 at 3:38pm
Hey Don,

Thanks for the update...  Glad this regimen is working well for you.  I do a burndown test of my 25(OH)D reserves a couple times a year by intentionally stopping the anti-inflammatory regimen until I feel a CH coming...

It usually takes 7 to 10 days for my CH to return if I was dosing at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 prior to starting the burn-down test.

The bottom line...  as CH'ers... episodic or chronic... we need to stay on this regimen year-round if we want to remain pain free...

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Sep 19th, 2013 at 6:51am
Hi Batch... can you tell me more about this regime Or, tell me what page on the site is best to start out with. (D3 & fish oil).  Does it take a while before it sets into your system. 
I'm picking up the req today, to get my blood tested to find out my D level.
Last night was the worst night I've had in a while, took 6000/d3 & 3000 salmon oil.  I'm not doing well... its going on to long. :-/

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 19th, 2013 at 8:20am

sue_g wrote on Sep 19th, 2013 at 6:51am:
Hi Batch... can you tell me more about this regime Or, tell me what page on the site is best to start out with. (D3 & fish oil).  Does it take a while before it sets into your system. 
I'm picking up the req today, to get my blood tested to find out my D level.
Last night was the worst night I've had in a while, took 6000/d3 & 3000 salmon oil.  I'm not doing well... its going on to long. :-/

Read this:

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Sep 19th, 2013 at 4:44pm
Thank you very much

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 19th, 2013 at 6:36pm
Hey Sue,

Good on you for picking up the script for the 25(OH)D lab test...  Brew has given you the right link to find the complete list of supplements and suggested dosing used in the anti-inflammatory regimen.

As to how long it can take to respond to this regimen, see the following chart.  This is data harvested in July 2013 from our online survey of CH'ers using the anti-inflammatory regimen with at least 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

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As you can see, 80% of the CH'ers CH'ers who respond to this regimen did so in 14 days or less.  A few respond in less than 24 hours... then there are others that have taken up to two months.

It's interesting to note that the response rate is roughly the inverse of the 25(OH)D response to dose of vitamin D3 as shown below:

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Near as we can figure... the response time depends on the serum concentration of 25(OH)D at the start of therapy... It also depends on any competing processes that consume 25(OH)D and the active hormonal vitamin D3 metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3 (calcitriol). 

After calcium homeostasis - the process of maintaining an optimum serum calcium concentration and building bone mineral density, our immune system is the next largest consumer of vitamin D3 and it's metabolites.

A cold, the flu and even a sub-clinical allergic reaction (no detectable symptoms), can consume available 25(OH)D very rapidly leaving an insufficient concentration to prevent cluster headache.

You've made a wise choice by starting this regimen... Please feel free to ask questions.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Sep 20th, 2013 at 4:31pm
Hi Batch

I had my test done on Wednesday, then started with 6000iu, on Thursday to 8000iu and since 2pm yesterday only shadows up to half hour after falling asleep, but then the O2 worked at last again. Was woken by a strong shadow at 3am, but it never went over to a full blown one. Took 10 000iu this morning. Since then only shadows on and off, the times it normally happens.

My tests came back today, 22.4ng/mL, so I will try to keep it up, cause it is a bit tough on my stomach. I take Nexiam for my stomach, is that okay?

Thank so much, I couldn't go on anymore!!!!

hell-jee

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 20th, 2013 at 10:42pm
Hey Hell-Jee,

Thanks for the update.  22 ng/mL is clearly vitamin D3 deficient...  Keep titrating up on the vitamin D3 to 25,000 IU/day by adding an additional 5,000 IU/day and be sure to take the Omega-3 Fish Oil and all the vitamin D3 cofactors.  When you get to 25,000 IU/day you can add a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week...  Stay on this dosing schedule for at least two weeks then you can drop the loading dose.

Given your response so far, you should be completely pain free in a few weeks. Be sure to see your PCP or neurologist to get the lab test for 25(OH)D again after a month on the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule... 

Your target serum concentration of 25(OH)D should be 80 to 85 ng/mL.  Once you reach this serum concentration you can drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  That should hold you there.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Sep 20th, 2013 at 11:10pm
Thanks Batch!

Last night was bad again, every hour!

I will do as you say.

Is the Nexiam okay ?

Thanks again!

hell-jee

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AndyC on Sep 21st, 2013 at 12:31pm
Hi all -
I am researching the D3 regimen for my son who is an episodic CH sufferer for the past 4 years, but I am confused about the standard(original) products from Costco.  The calcium citrate with magnesium has only 80 mg of magnesium and it is from magnesium oxide whereas the recipe calls for other magnesium types.  If Centrum Silver is added then you get an additional 50mg of magnesium oxide.

This is only 130mg of magnesium not 400-500mg and magnesium oxide is not listed as a preferred magnesium.

Is the original recipe still valid?  Do I need to add a different magnesium?

I  have tried to read every posting about the D3 regimen, hundreds of posts, as it seems to be the best and healthiest solution for my son's CH.  He is very reluctant to try anything(red bull, O2 etc) so I want to be correct in what I have him try.

Thanks for all your info and advice
Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on Sep 21st, 2013 at 3:04pm
Hi,
I had this query too. Every supplement I looked at had something else in it. I shopped around on-line and managed to find exactly the right stuff. Try iHerb.com, ebay, and amazon for starters but there are many more. It means added shipping costs to most things but at least I know I'm doing it correctly.(You may even find free shipping on some).
I've been on it now for 53 days and have had some shadows up to kip3 but nothing worse. And I feel even if that's as good as it gets, well, it's good enough for me. I can feel it, and it hacks me off, but I can live with it. And it's Beats the hell out of the kip10's any day.
Hope you find what you want. Good luck.
Maz.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 21st, 2013 at 3:50pm
Andy,

Good question...  The first thing to do is have your son see his PCP to discuss the anti-inflammatory regimen and schedule a lab test for 25(OH)D.  If that's going to take a while, most CH'ers start this regimen then get tested...

The basic regimen shown below works effectively for most CH'ers. 

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It's convenient as there are only three types of pills to take... two of each... 

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If there's no response after two weeks, even with an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule... more magnesium may be needed up to the RDA of 400 mg/day.

What we've learned over the last year is that vitamin A (retinol) and vitamin K2 (MK-4 and MK-7) are also important vitamin D3 cofactors.  I take a Centrum Silver tablet or a tablet of the Safeway brand Century Senior 50+ Formula. It has a similar formulation.

Bottom line...  If there's no response to this regimen even with an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule... add more magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil.  Magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate have a higher bioavailability than magnesium oxide.

It's also a good idea to get tested for 25(OH)D again after a month on this regimen.  That way you can adjust the vitamin D3 intake accordingly.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AndyC on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:27pm
Thank you all so very much for your responses.
I have sent for the D3 test from the online resources I found here since my son does not have insurance.  We should have the results very soon after sending it in.
In the mean time he is starting on the 'beginning' dosage.  Thanks again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:32pm
Thank YOU for supporting my cluster brother, most of us would be in a very very dark place without our supporters, he's lucky to have you doing the research! ;)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:48pm
Batch is the best person to answer the questions around the exact recipe.

Although I've found that following the approach without trying to be totally precise on the numbers works well as I've been CH pain free for over 1.5 years.


AndyC wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 12:31pm:
I  have tried to read every posting about the D3 regimen, hundreds of posts, as it seems to be the best and healthiest solution for my son's CH.  He is very reluctant to try anything(red bull, O2 etc) so I want to be correct in what I have him try.


The part I've put in bold is very significant.

CH is rare, most doctors are poorly educated in it and if you don't take charge of your own destiny by doing your own research and pushing for the right treatment then you are likely to be in for a whole lot of pain that you don't need to go through.

So the question is why is he reluctant to try anything? Change that and it should open the door to significant improvements.

Oxygen is one amazing way to abort CHs. It can be simply life changing in going from torture sessions lasting around an hour or so, to being able to abort it in a few minutes. I can abort mine in under 5 minutes using 25lpm and a non-rebreather mask. The first time I used it I was in tears knowing what a difference it would make to my life.

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You're also doing a great job too by doing the research to try to make a difference. Having support like this is wonderful.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AndyC on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:14pm
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your response.
I really don't mean to hijack this thread so let me know if I should continue this posting in another area.

Prior to finding this site I have sent him some pretty stupid links I found online.  Everything from cranial adjustments to acupuncture. That might have something to do with it.  Also he is possibly the most contrary individual I have every met.(yes I am talking about my youngest son)
Besides that I don't know why he is so reluctant to try things to alleviate his pain.  He is especially reluctant to use O2 even after I showed him the research.
Have any of you run into this?
Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AndyC on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:25pm
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your response.
I really don't mean to hijack this thread so let me know if I should continue this posting in another area.

Prior to finding this site I have sent him some pretty stupid links I found online.  Everything from cranial adjustments to acupuncture. That might have something to do with it.  Also he is possibly the most contrary individual I have every met.(yes I am talking about my youngest son)
Besides that I don't know why he is so reluctant to try things to alleviate his pain.  He is especially reluctant to use O2 even after I showed him the research.
Have any of you run into this?
Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brew on Sep 21st, 2013 at 6:28pm
Maybe he likes being in pain?

As warped as that sounds, there are some people who appreciate the attention it garners.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 22nd, 2013 at 2:40am
Hi Andy - creating a new thread in the "Getting to know ya" area might be worth doing as it can focus on you, rather than being a side discussion from "123 days...".

Just about everyone with CH will have had many, many suggestions from people trying to help who just don't really understand anything remotely CH related, there is even a whole thread here somewhere about the responses that can make amusing reading, although that isn't the reaction when someone suggests something when you're in the middle of a CH. What people need to learn is that people are well meaning, it's just that CH isn't too common and it isn't anything remotely like a normal tension headache.

I've previously seen a few supporters give similar comments that their husband / wife / child just will not take interest in anything that might help. Most times it seems that the person has had their resistance just about broken from what CH does to you, coupled with having not had good treatment, etc. You can imagine how people get to a position where all hope is just about lost.

You can do a lot to help, provide good information, backed by evidence, but it still needs the person with CH to make that final step and to do something about it.

Ask anyone here who has used O2 and they will say it is a life changer...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Sep 22nd, 2013 at 8:36am
Andy, after all the failed treatments the poor kid has been through, I can certainly understand his reluctance to get lead down another yellow brick road, only to get his heart broken again because beasty comes roaring back. :-/ Try to get him onto the board, Lord knows no one here will tell him to take an aspirin, or it's just a headache. ;)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AndyC on Sep 23rd, 2013 at 1:36pm
Thanks for all your replies,
I have finally found a place that understands.  Both from the supporter view and the 'headacher'(if that is a word) view.
Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by metrolamar on Sep 23rd, 2013 at 2:23pm
I could not imagine a Cluster Cycle without oxygen.  It is truely the only thing that helps every time.  I remember life before the oxgen....walking and pacing the floors with pain that made tears pour down my face.  I never want to experience those days again.  Oxygen which I found out about on this Clusterheadache.com web site has truely been a lifesaver.  The people on this message board are the best and they know what they are talking about.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Sep 25th, 2013 at 6:35am
Hi

Still on the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen,
but suddenly ,
not good, not good at all, up to 7 episode's  a day,
and have no idia why....

not venting, or complaining, just wondering (aloud ) why....

Started with Nerve block to try and cut the episodes, hope
will give me some relief ...

Michael




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Sep 25th, 2013 at 11:58pm
Batch

Thanks for all your advice!

My pH was too low, so I used chlorophyll, food enzymes, nature's Noni, extra Mg and Ca, lots of lemonade, adjust my diet, now my pH is better, and the O2 is working again!

Two nights I could sleep for longer than 30min at a time, 5 hours! But I did something that I don't know if it is okay, but it worked, after the CH was aborted I set my alarm for an hour and kept the O2 on at 4lpm and put it off after the hour, then I was passed that 30min barrier and slept for 4 more hours. Last night I did not do it again but still had a 2 hour and 3 hour stretch of sleep!!!

It is such a relief after no sleep longer than 30min the last two months!!!!

Thanks again!

 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 26th, 2013 at 1:00am

hell-jee wrote on Sep 25th, 2013 at 11:58pm:
But I did something that I don't know if it is okay, but it worked, after the CH was aborted I set my alarm for an hour and kept the O2 on at 4lpm and put it off after the hour, then I was passed that 30min barrier and slept for 4 more hours. Last night I did not do it again but still had a 2 hour and 3 hour stretch of sleep!!!


Be very, very careful about doing this with a non-rebreather mask. If you run out of oxygen and the mask is fastened to your face then you could suffocate.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:53pm
Hell-Jee,

Thanks for the feedback...

I'm probably one of the few around who thinks a low pH is a problem for CH'ers...  It doesn't take much of a drop in pH (increased acidity) to trigger an increase in vasodilation.  When that happens, none of the cluster headache preventatives or abortives work very well.

Our arterial/systemic pH is controlled by one of the most powerful homeostatic functions in our body...  Chemoreceptors in carotid arteries and in the brain stem detect a shift to a lower pH and interpret this condition as too much CO2. 

In response, pH homeostatic mechanisms in the autonomic nervous system trigger the arteries and capillaries to dilate, the lungs are signaled to increase respiration rate and the heart is signaled to beat faster... All this happens to speed the flow of blood to the lungs to cast off the perceived excess of CO2.   

This vascular dilation makes the cluster headache triggering mechanisms more effective so we get hit harder and more frequently. The same thing happens during sleep where our respiration rate drops.  When this happens, arterial oxygen content drops and CO2 content increases...  a perfect storm for CH'ers.

An alkaline forming diet likes GOMBS, (Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans-Berries and Seeds including nuts) and the methods you used are some of the best defenses against an arterial/systemic pH at the low end of the normal range (7.35 to 7.45).

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Sep 27th, 2013 at 12:41pm
Hi Batch and all;
With much work, I received my 25(OH)D results today.
86 nmol/L (not bad)

Just started the regimen Batch, but here's the kicker tho.  I need your advise.
I've been battling CH since June, with much push and work I was able to see Neuro (Sitwell) on Fri Sept 20th. To abort my CH's he prescribed me prednisone 100mg/day for 7 days. (I had never had this drug before). Yes, its kicked the hits, but I'm scared how to draper off of it.
Started Prednisone Script Sunday:

-Sun thru Tues @ 100mg/day(feel human again).
-Wed & Thur @ 50mg/day. 
-Thurs (yesterday) i originally took only 25mg in morning, but woke up at 10pm last night with 2/3kip, obviously I still need the taper down... so I took another 25mg at 10pm last night.
Fri - I'll take 50mg's today, I'm guessing?

-Also taking 3 x 80.5mg Verapamil daily.
***With your Pregnisone experiences, please advise me how the best way to taper down Pregnisone, with knowledge his script was written for a 7day fix @100mg/day.

I just want to say… Thank you to Batch and Clusterheadaches.com all the folks here
Batch, you are so highly respected.
I'm thinking: Sat Sun Mon - 25mg/Prednisone... ?? Your thoughts...
Hopefully the CH's will not come back with vengence :(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 27th, 2013 at 2:34pm
Hey Sue,

Thanks for the kind words and good question...

There are two schools of thought on the best method of treating cluster headaches with prednisone.

One uses a 10 to 15 day taper... The other uses a short burst without taper.  Ultimately, both methods work for a while to prevent your cluster headaches, but when they end... the beast comes back... if you're chronic or episodic and still in cycle.

Claims that prednisone "broke" a cycle among episodic sufferers are frequently clouded by end of cycle...  In many cases, the CH cycle was ending anyway and that makes attributing a cessation of attacks to prednisone an iffy claim...

Prednisone also slows vitamin D3 metabolism so knowing your lab results for 25(OH)D is important.  As your lab results came back at at 86 nmol/L, (34.4 ng/mL)...  Not bad... but not high enough for any lasting relief from CH...  You need to get your 25(OH)D serum concentration up between 150 and 250 nmol/L.

Several CH'ers, episodic and chronic, have used an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule of 25,000 IU/day with a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose.

A month on this schedule should elevate your 25(OH)D in a range between 150 and 250 nmol/L...  and that should result in a pain free response... but you'll need to see your PCP for another 25(OH)D lab test at that point so you can adjust your vitamin D3 intake accordingly. 

If the results of this lab test come back around 212 nmol/L, you're in the sweet spot... At that point you can drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU day vitamin D3 and test again in 3 months...

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Sep 27th, 2013 at 3:54pm
oh thank you so much Batch...
I'm episodic & yes I'm still in a cycle.
I will continue as planned to taper off prednisone by breaking the 100's tabs in half, then quarters. (I don't like this drug!) nor any.
I will accelerate the Vit D3 as you say... Yes I will continue to get my lab results, I'm arranging the GP to give me a few requisitions for the 25(OH)D test.
I will keep in touch, definetely! I can't thank you enough. I really appreciate your support.  [smiley=blush.gif]  :)
 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by FrankF on Sep 27th, 2013 at 4:17pm

AndyC wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 5:25pm:
Hi  He is especially reluctant to use O2 even after I showed him the research.
Have any of you run into this?
Andy


Yes, sort of, but different. My now former general doctor refused to prescribe O2, saying he didn't have any other cluster headache patients who used it, and referrred me to a neurologist (forgetting he is the SAME DOCTOR who prescribed it for me 4 years ago, which is the reason I went back to him). So bottom line he was afraid to prescribe it.

I think people are reluctant to try things, because they don't understand the benefits... like kids who won't eat vegetables.  :) Oxygen is what we all breath everyday, only 100% oxygen is about 10X more concentrated than regular air... no big deal. It won't make him high, it doesn't lead to dependence, it doesn't have bad side effects, and he won't turn into Freddy or Jason. The only side effect I have after using O2 is feeling relaxed, I sometimes fall asleep with the O2 still on and waste the rest of the O2 tank.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Sep 28th, 2013 at 1:16pm
Hey Batch,
To recap: I did what you said, I've increased my D3 intake to 25,000mgs starting yesterday.
Just wanted you to know how I'm tapering off prednisone.  Because my script is in a 100mg tab form,prescriped for only for 7 days, this is all I can do.

100mg/day for 3 days
50mg/day for 3 days (on the last 2 days of the 3, I split the tab took 25 in morning then 25 in afternoon.) dunno!
25mg/day for 3 days (today is the first day, shall be interesting tonight)
I'm following your recipe, but shortening my intake of Calcium at the moment. Due to the Verapamil I'm currently taking.
*please note: correction above: I am taking 120 verapamil 3 X per day.  (80 & 1/2 pill) = 120mgs ea day.

Stay tuned to this Crazy Canuck's saga... tx Batch.
p.s. couldn't do this without your support bud! ;)





Batch wrote on Sep 27th, 2013 at 2:34pm:
Hey Sue,

Thanks for the kind words and good question...

There are two schools of thought on the best method of treating cluster headaches with prednisone.

One uses a 10 to 15 day taper... The other uses a short burst without taper.  Ultimately, both methods work for a while to prevent your cluster headaches, but when they end... the beast comes back... if you're chronic or episodic and still in cycle.

Claims that prednisone "broke" a cycle among episodic sufferers are frequently clouded by end of cycle...  In many cases, the CH cycle was ending anyway and that makes attributing a cessation of attacks to prednisone an iffy claim...

Prednisone also slows vitamin D3 metabolism so knowing your lab results for 25(OH)D is important.  As your lab results came back at at 86 nmol/L, (34.4 ng/mL)...  Not bad... but not high enough for any lasting relief from CH...  You need to get your 25(OH)D serum concentration up between 150 and 250 nmol/L.

Several CH'ers, episodic and chronic, have used an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule of 25,000 IU/day with a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose.

A month on this schedule should elevate your 25(OH)D in a range between 150 and 250 nmol/L...  and that should result in a pain free response... but you'll need to see your PCP for another 25(OH)D lab test at that point so you can adjust your vitamin D3 intake accordingly. 

If the results of this lab test come back around 212 nmol/L, you're in the sweet spot... At that point you can drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU day vitamin D3 and test again in 3 months...

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cluster on Sep 28th, 2013 at 4:51pm
Thank you, Batch!

SIX weeks pain free today and my annual “summer peak” of CH attacks was avoided this year and I think Batch knows why!

Since summer 2000 I suffer from chronic CH, diagnosis was in July 2005. Since then I take verapamil daily between 120-480mg/day. This usually works quite well but every year during the summer the CH gets that bad that the verapamil does not seem to work anymore. This year in June I started the “Anti-inflammatory regimen”, in addition to the verapamil, with a very good result.

My Vitamin D3 (25-OH) values were as follows:

May 17, 2013: 20.2 ng/ml 

August 21, 2013: 67.7 ng/ml 

Starting from June 18, 2013 I took Vitamin D3 = 10,000 IU + Omega-3 = 2,400 mg (EPA 360 mg, DHA 240 mg) + Vitamin A = 800 mcg (2,667 IU) daily.

Twice I started the calcium + magnesium supplementation but discontinued this after a couple of days because of an increasing number of attacks. I took the calcium + magnesium supplementation hours after taking the daily verapamil, but this may still have a negative effect on the efficacy of the verapamil? After the discontinuation of the calcium + magnesium supplementation the number of attacks was reduced again from the following day.

Side effects from the Vitamin D3 + Vitamin A + Omega 3: I feel less tired during the day than I felt tired during the day earlier this year! – No adverse events, no negative side effects at all.

Since yesterday I reduced the daily verapamil dose from 480mg to 360mg and if everything goes well, I will continue to reduce my daily verapamil intake during the next months.

Please find attached a graph with my attacks per month from the beginning of 2011 until now. Sorry that the text in the graph is in German (and that I’m too lazy to translate) but I’m sure you’ll understand what I mean!

Again,
Thank you VERY much, Batch!


Pf wishes,
Friedrich


Edit: Replaced diagram by english language version.
CH_hits_per_month.jpg (137 KB | 3 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 28th, 2013 at 5:51pm
Friedrich,

Mein freund, das ist hervorragend!  Vielen dank für dieses wunderbare daten...

Take care and thanks again,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 28th, 2013 at 6:15pm
Sue,

I'm tuned in...  I live in Washington State a few hours South of British Columbia so Crazy Canucks are my kind of people... 

I also spent a few days in Watertown, NY a few years back working with Forward Observers from the 10th Mountain Division at Ft Drum, so was only a few miles South of you...

I'm confident you're going to like the results of taking this regimen...

Take care...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Sep 29th, 2013 at 11:53am
Hey Batch and others,
So far feeling great and still very overwhelmed with this particular cycle, & not only that! How you & the others have supported me towards freedom.
To recap: Prednisone taper
- Last night was my first day at yet again a lower dose of 25mg. I must say, I was a bit concerned about going to sleep last night...afraid of waking up to CH.
I MADE IT! wooo! I'm feeling good, I'm making my way thru this storm; (not without your help batch) I'm staying focused.
Monday Sept 30th last day @ 25mg of Prednisone, then I will be entering a new step once more (with a little anxiosity attached to it).
If all is good at this point... this is where I will need your advise.
When & how to reduce the Verapamil.

My thoughts are: prehaps have another 25(OH)D test again at 3 weeks from last test result. Then I will be able to determine how much to reduce the Verapamil?
Appreciate your thoughts... p.s. I probably shouldn't be looking that far a head yet.  ;D
Thank you as always  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Sep 30th, 2013 at 1:28pm
Thank you for this post Batch, I found this very interesting :) 
So what you are saying, its best to keep our diet to more a higher alkaline type. 
Also, I'd like to ask.  I'm a sensitive kind of person... (sounds silly) but I'm assuming these foods play with our stress levels and how we deal with anxiety?
I know at the moment, I seem to have more anxiety with my day to day life... don't know why, maybe its a personality trait.
thanks for listening..


Batch wrote on Sep 26th, 2013 at 12:53pm:
Hell-Jee,

Thanks for the feedback...

I'm probably one of the few around who thinks a low pH is a problem for CH'ers...  It doesn't take much of a drop in pH (increased acidity) to trigger an increase in vasodilation.  When that happens, none of the cluster headache preventatives or abortives work very well.

Our arterial/systemic pH is controlled by one of the most powerful homeostatic functions in our body...  Chemoreceptors in carotid arteries and in the brain stem detect a shift to a lower pH and interpret this condition as too much CO2. 

In response, pH homeostatic mechanisms in the autonomic nervous system trigger the arteries and capillaries to dilate, the lungs are signaled to increase respiration rate and the heart is signaled to beat faster... All this happens to speed the flow of blood to the lungs to cast off the perceived excess of CO2.   

This vascular dilation makes the cluster headache triggering mechanisms more effective so we get hit harder and more frequently. The same thing happens during sleep where our respiration rate drops.  When this happens, arterial oxygen content drops and CO2 content increases...  a perfect storm for CH'ers.

An alkaline forming diet likes GOMBS, (Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans-Berries and Seeds including nuts) and the methods you used are some of the best defenses against an arterial/systemic pH at the low end of the normal range (7.35 to 7.45).

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 30th, 2013 at 6:23pm
Sue,

Keeping our arterial/systemic pH on the alkaline side of neutral helps nearly every function in the body... It also helps the nutraceuticals we take in the anti-inflammatory regimen function more effectively.

One of the beneficial side effects of this regimen is better sleep...  With a good 8 hours of sleep... we all function far better with a lot less self-induced stress.

Kicking our arterial/systemic pH to the alkaline side of neutral isn't all that difficult to do.  The GOMBS diet is a great starter...

The following article deals with cold remedies but the underlying principle in several of these remedies is elevating pH to the alkaline side of neutral.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


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10 easy, natural remedies for conquering the common cold

Originally published September 26 2013, by Jonathan Benson, staff writer (NaturalNews)

Persistent coughing, runny nose, stuffed up sinuses, headaches -- these are among the many symptoms that can drag you down and leave you feeling helpless to make it through your day and fulfill your responsibilities when you catch a cold virus. But rather than reach for those chemical-laden cough syrups and mind-numbing antihistamines, why not instead try one or more of these 10 natural remedies for conquering the common cold?

1) Vitamin D. Vitamin D is perhaps the most overlooked, and yet arguably one of the most effective, remedies for treating the common cold. Although it works better as a preventive regimen, taking higher than normal doses of vitamin D3 daily -- some experts recommend taking 10,000 international units (IU) or more of vitamin D3 every day -- can help reduce cold and flu symptoms and get you back to normal health much more quickly than without them. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

2) Apple cider vinegar. Cold viruses tend to put the body into an overly acidic state, which makes it that much more difficult for the immune system to fight disease. But taking apple cider vinegar, a powerful alkalizing food, will help not only kill a cold but also squash its miserable symptoms. Mixing a few tablespoons of apple cider vinegar with warm water, honey, and lemon, and drinking the concoction several times a day will have you back to health in no time. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

3) Vitamin C. A powerful immune booster, vitamin C is a go-to remedy for both preventing and treating colds. Some experts recommend taking up to 2,000 milligrams (mg) or more of non-genetically-modified (non-GMO) ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate every two hours while suffering cold symptoms. Other vitamin C options include camu camu and acerola cherry powders, as well as "liposomal" vitamin C preparations. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

4) Honey. A powerful soothing and healing agent, raw honey from untainted bees can go a long way in boosting immunity and treating cold symptoms. Its diverse array of antioxidant, antiviral, and antibacterial nutrients make honey an excellent cold medicine that mixes well with other cold remedies such as apple cider vinegar and lemon. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

5) Ginger. Another powerful, soothing agent, ginger root is a powerful healer with amazing anti-inflammatory properties. Because it targets stomach upset, those suffering from cold symptoms that involve digestion can experience dramatic relief from taking ginger. Ginger also helps warm the body, which is highly effective at promoting perspiration and the expelling of toxins and other harmful invaders. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

6) Zinc. Often sold in syrup or lozenge form for such purposes, zinc has been scientifically shown to help combat the sniffling, sneezing, and coughing symptoms typically associated with colds. Zinc is also a powerful immune-boosting trace element that facilitates the proper function of more than 3,000 proteins in the body, as well as the promotion of healthy digestive function, which is where the bulk of immunity lies. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

7) Echinacea. A 2007 study out of the University of Connecticut found that supplementing with echinacea herb not only reduces your chances of developing a cold by more than 50 percent, but can also shorten the duration of cold symptoms by several days. Because it stimulates the immune system and promotes the activation of T-cells, echinacea is an excellent cold remedy, especially when combined with many of the other remedies listed in this report. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

8) Neti pot. If stuffed-up sinuses are one of your primary ailments, using a neti pot to clear them out is an easy, natural way to help you get back on your feet. Just fill a sanitized neti pot with warm water and about one teaspoon of sea salt, and gently pour it down your sinuses. Besides clearing out your nasal passages, the cleansing salts will also help eliminate bacteria and other harmful pathogens. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

9) Oil of oregano. Rich in four specific groups of chemicals that synergistically promote healing and strong immunity, essential oil of oregano is unparalleled in its ability to both prevent harmful viruses from taking hold, and eradicating existing viruses such as the common cold. The natural terpene chemicals found in oil or oregano exhibit powerful antiviral and anti-inflammatory activity, while carvacrol, the primary active ingredient in oil of oregano, fight off harmful pathogens. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

10) Coconut oil. This elixir from the coconut palm is one of the most powerful, natural antiviral compounds known to man. Coconut oil has an amazing ability to target virtually any virus, including cold viruses. Rich in medium-chain fatty acids (MCFAs), coconut oil absorbs directly into viral cells where it breaks apart and disintegrates the protective coating of the virus, effectively killing it. Take a tablespoon or two daily of extra virgin coconut oil, particularly at the onset of cold symptoms, can effectively thwart the virus from taking hold and running its course. (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Oct 2nd, 2013 at 6:53am
Thanks again Batch! Awesome information.... as usual!
Hi Batch & all,
I’d appreciate your thoughts on how to taper off Verapamil.
I've already started the D3 regimen, but here's the kicker tho. Where I need your advise.
As you are aware, I've been battling CH since June & on Fri Sept 20th my Neuro prescribed me prednisone 100mg/day for 7 days. (I had never had this drug before). Yes, its kicked the hits and I've safely made it thru without any issues. Done, finished the Prednisone without CH relapse.
(Chills of joy  :o yay)

-Continuing still with 3 x 120mg Verapamil/day or 360mg daily.
-September 25th My 25(OH)D (nmol/L) test result = 86.
-Have increased D3 to 25,000 daily as of Sept 28th, (THANKS BATCH) to get to the range of 200-250nmol/L or same as 80-100ng/mL.
I feel pretty well back to norm, without knowing of course if the CH’s are playing in the background.  I feel that they may have gone, (not sure tho).

Looking for your opinion &/or suggestions:
I’d like to start a plan to reduce the Verapamil.
Shall I wait until I get another 25(OH)D test done, perhaps in another two weeks. Or, shall I reduce the Verapamil slightly now to see what happens.
I know that’s a huge question… hoping you’ve experienced this when you started the D3 regimen.

I just want to say… Thank you again Batch & all of you for supporting me thru this. (I think the scary part is over, for now). You guys are the best and truly are so highly respected.  :)
Sue


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 2nd, 2013 at 8:54am
Sue,

I don't see any need to rush... Talk with your neurologist about your experience with vitamin D3 and the results you've experienced then discuss a plan to come off the verapamil...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Oct 2nd, 2013 at 9:25am
Yes, you are right, Ya... totally get it. I will take baby steps with it Batch.
Thanks Bud, tty all later :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 3:27pm
Batch

I took the tablets as you suggested. After a week my night hits started to get fewer, and daytime one's was just strong shadows. Then I developed infection in my mouth where I had an operation for arterial cauterization a week before I started the VitD. I had to go on anti-biotics to stop the infection and I was back to where I started. All the hits were back!

I kept taking the VitD, Tuesday morning was the last dose of the anti-biotics and that night I slept through the night and only shadows the whole day!! It was such a relieve!

Last night 2 hits again and during today 2 more, why I don't know, perhaps because I was a bit slack on the pH yesterday?

I went to see a physician today. I went for several blood tests he wanted on Tuesday, that was 2 weeks after starting the VitD and the result was that it is up now from 22-62ng/ml and told me to stop immediately with the high doses, it did not help to explain to him that I must get it up to 80-85 for the CH to go away! He was only concerned about my high cholesterol.

Did you not say your cholesterol was normal again after you took the VitD?

My oestrogen is also low and he suggested HRT, will that perhaps also go up with the VitD? Didn't I read some where testosterone goes up?  My CH started as I was approaching menopause.

Thanks for all your advice!

Wanted too wait for the blood test before reporting back.   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Oct 3rd, 2013 at 3:41pm
By the way, I lost 5 pounds in the two weeks!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Oct 4th, 2013 at 8:41am
Way to go hell-jee! Good luck with the D3 regimen!  I can tell you I'm so thrilled to see the results as I get into this regimen... I'm hoping it changes my world :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LAW on Oct 4th, 2013 at 2:02pm
Hi,

I've had CH for 22 yrs now, I'm episodic and just came out of a 2 year remission. I'm about a month into this cycle and just came across this D3 regime. From what I've read here the results seem promising so I'd like to give it a try. Wondering if anyone can tell me if body size matters as far as the recommended dosing goes or is the dose the same regardless of size and gender? I'm female, 5'2 and 105 lbs. Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 4th, 2013 at 2:50pm
Hell-Jee,

I'm not a physician or nutritionist... but I did stay at a Howard Johnson a few years back...

Seriously... all I can do is provide you information based on my experience with, and what I've learned over the last three years about vitamin D3, Omega-3 Fish Oil and the rest of the vitamin D3 cofactors: calcium, magnesium, zinc, boron, vitamin A (retinol) and vitamin K2 (MK-4 & MK-7).  Armed with this information, you can make your own decisions.

For starters, you've likely already discovered that most PCPs and too many neurologists have no real first-hand clinical experience treating patients with cluster headaches... That should be understandable... We suffer from an orphan disorder...  When patients present with a condition they've not treated previously... like cluster headache, most physicians use a cookbook approach with treatment recommendations from Standards of Care Guidlines...  Many of these guidelines are excellent...  That said, it all depends on when the cookbook (Guideline) was published...

Unfortunately, the same can be said for the benefits of nutrition and the use of supplements on the many health issues we face... 

This shouldn't be surprising either... Most medical school curricula provide an average of 1 hour on primary headaches and about the same amount of time on the use of nutrition as a mode of preventative and interventional treatments.

Furthermore, most of the exciting medical breakthrough discoveries in the last ten years have come as a result of molecular biochemistry at the cellular and nuclear level...  in short, rise of the genetic-based pharmaceutical companies...

To put this in perspective, the Human Genome Project wasn't declared substantially complete until April 2003 with sequencing of the last remaining chromasome not completed until May of 2006.

Getting back to the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3, the real exciting stuff has come as a result of gold standard RCTs completed in the last five years and the use of vitamin D3 as a preventative for cluster headache didn't start until three years ago when I developed the basic anti-inflammatory regimen.

Moreover, until now, the only first hand information on the efficacy of vitamin D3 as a preventative for cluster headache has only been available here at CH.com.  Other sites like ClusterBusters and a couple cluster headache organizations in Europe have been watching.

Sooo... unless physicians have been taking CME specific to vitamin D3 and nutrition... they've likely never been exposed to the health benefits of vitamin D3 and the vitamin D3 cofactors.

With that as a preface... here's what I suggest.  VitaminDWiki provides the most complete and up to date compendium of all things vitamin D3 including excerpts, and links to the latest RCTs... 

For example, here's the link to the benefits of taking vitamin D3 to control cholesterol:

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The really cool thing about vitamin D3, 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), the active hormonal form of vitamin D3 is its capacity to stimulate genetic expression... 

In simple terms calcitriol triggers certain genes to produce products our bodies need to heal themselves and turn off genes to prevent them from making products that make us sick.

It's this capacity of vitamin D3 we think is responsible for the down-regulation/suppression of Calcitonin Gene-Related Peptide (CGRP) that studies have found elevated during cluster and migraine headaches. Dr. Peter Goadsby, M.D., one of the world's top cluster headache neurologists, conducted one of these studies.

In order to help make genetic expression happen, we need to supplement with adequate amounts of vitamin D3, calcium, magnesium, zinc, boron, vitamin A (retinol) and vitamin K2 (MK-4 & MK-7).  The following graphic provides a high level illustration of how this happens...

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You can find more about the synergy between vitamin D3, vitamin A and vitamin K2 at the following link:

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The founder of VitaminDWiki has been kind enough to post a web page on the use of vitamin D3 as a cluster headache preventative at the following link: 

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Proof Vitamin D Works - A list of links to RCTs studying the use of vitamin D3 to treat and prevent a long list of health problems:

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Finally, no discussion of vitamin D3 therapy is complete without discussing safety.  The following graphic tells the tale on safety of the doses we take.  Note that it's not just the dose but also the duration of dose that adds up...

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This graphic doesn't tell the whole story... It's not so much the dose and duration but rather how much 25(OH)D the body produces in response to these doses over time. 

Even that can be misleading as it's not the serum concentration of 25(OH)D that indicates toxicity...  It's the serum concentration of calcium... 

If you read through the papers on vitamin D3 toxicity you'll find there are no studies (RCT's) that intentionally set out to define the vitamin D3 dose and serum level of 25(OH)D that triggers a toxic reaction...  That would be unethical... 

Instead, they gathered data from cases of unintentional and accidental overdoses due to mislabeled or improperly prepared vitamin D3 that resulted in calcium serum concentrations above the normal reference range.  These cases were then used to approximate vitamin D3 dosing and 25(OH)D thresholds where a toxic reaction occurred as indicated by too much serum calcium and or too much calcium in the urine.

In nearly every case, authors reporting toxic levels build in a large safety margin...  For example, if the lowest threshold for vitamin D3 toxicity from any study (with or without peer review), was found to be 200 ng/mL, the "Safe" upper limit of the normal reference range is set at 100 ng/mL.

In short, the vitamin D3 experts, endocrinologists specializing in treating vitamin D3 deficient patients will say... vitamin D3 toxicity is very rare...

Finally, I've tried to put this on an apples to apples comparison of relative risk...  I was unaware of any deaths reported to the FDA over the last 9 years due to vitamin D3... so I checked a web site that tracks reports like this...  I think you'll find the following list an eye-opener...

From Q1 2004 to Q3 2012, (9 years), the FDA received adverse reaction reports on the following prescription medications and over the counter supplements:  Check out the following link to see for yourself.  Plug in prescribed and over-the-counter medications and supplements you’ve been taking… one at a time, to see what’s been reported to the FDA about these medications over the last 9 years. Click on the “Show More” button to see the entire list of adverse reaction reports for each choice.

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Prescription Medications Used To Treat Cluster Headache and Related Symptoms
Deaths due to VERAPAMIL                        229
Deaths due to DEPAKOTE                         168
Deaths due to TOPAMAX                            66
Deaths due to LITHIUM CARBONATE           56
Deaths due to LYRICA                              703
Deaths due to GABAPENTIN (Neurontin)    202
Deaths due to VALPROIC ACID                  194
Deaths due to BACLOFEN                         102
Deaths due to PREDNISONE                        513
Deaths due to PREDNISOLONE                     163
Deaths due to COUMADIN                           458
Deaths due to IMITREX                                 32
Deaths due to INDOMETHACIN                      18
Deaths due to OCTREOTIDE                       1317
Deaths due to CALAN                                  208
Deaths due to CLOMIPHENE CITRATE               8 Intra-uterine Deaths
Deaths due to PROPRANOLOL HCL                67
Deaths due to ATENOLO                              62
Deaths due to AMITRIPTYLINE                    184
Deaths due to PAXIL                                  357
Deaths due to LIPITOR                               865
Deaths due to CRESTOR                             238
Deaths due to NEXIUM                               357
Deaths due to AMBIEN                               243
Deaths due to PRILOSEC                                0
Deaths due to DIHYDROERGOTAMINE             0
Deaths due to OXYGEN                                  0

Over The Counter NSAIDs                  
Deaths due to NAPROXEN (Aleve)                142
Deaths due to ASPIRIN                               645
Deaths due to TYLENOL                              964
Deaths due to EXCEDRIN                            500
Deaths due to IBUPROFEN                           661

Over The Counter Supplements/Nutrients
Deaths due to MELATONIN                             0
Deaths due to MAGNESIUM OXIDE                  0
Deaths due to CALCIUM CITRATE                    Not Listed
Deaths due to BORON                                    Not Listed
Deaths due to VITAMIN A (Retinol)                 6
Deaths due to VITAMIN B (Complex)               2
Deaths due to VITAMIN B 12                          0
Deaths due to VITAMIN C                               0
Deaths due to Vitamin E                                 2
Deaths due to VITAMIN D3                             0
VITAMIN D3 TOXICITY                                   2
Deaths due to VITAMIN K                               2
Deaths due to VITAMIN K2                             Not Listed
Deaths due to ZINC OXIDE                             Not Listed


So there you have it...  The next time a nervous Nellie cries "Wolf" in a post about taking vitamin D3... at the doses we take in the anti-inflammatory regimen...  take a deep breath and remember the sage sayings...  Too much of anything isn't good... and... All things in moderation...

Good people of Clusterville... Our healthcare system is going down the dumper at a frightening pace...  The smart thing to do now is stay healthy.  The anti-inflammatory regimen is a very safe regimen with health benefits that go well beyond preventing cluster headaches.

And if you do get sick and need to see a doctor... be informed... Ask for an explanation of any prescribed medication including side effects.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Oct 4th, 2013 at 3:05pm
Thanks Batch!

I'm not listening to him!! I'm just getting better , why would I if this is working!!

Thanks again!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 4th, 2013 at 4:20pm
LAW,

Good question.  The short answer is yes, body mass does make a difference in dosing with vitamin D3.

That said, there's also variation in response to dose.  That makes taking a disciplined approach by seeing your PCP or neurologist to discuss the anti-inflammatory regimen and ask for the lab test of your 25(OH)D serum concentration.  Be sure to tell your PCP or neurologist you want to take vitamin D3 and not D2.  Some physicians will want to control this regimen by writing you a prescription for vitamin D2...  Be prepared to push back if this happens...  Vitamin D3 is roughly two times more effective than vitamin D2...  See the following links for details:

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Getting your 25(OH)D tested regularly (once a month) is a good idea until you reach a stable serum concentration in the "Green Zone" (60 to 110 ng/mL).  This is the range of 25(OH)D lab results reported by CH'ers who respond favorably to this regimen.  After that, get a 25(OH)D lab test once a year or if you fall out of remission...

The following chart developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, illustrates the "average" 25(OH)D response to dose of vitamin D3 over time.  I've overlaid this chart with color bands.  The red band represents the range of 25(OH)D lab results taken before starting this regimen and the green band represents the range of lab results taken after a significant response to this regimen.

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If you follow the top curve for a dose of vitmain D3 at 10,000 IU/day, you'll see it takes weeks for the average person to reach the green zone assuming the starting serum concentration of 25(OH)D is low.

As the goal of this regimen is to elevate 25(OH)D into the green zone and keep it there in order to prevent cluster headache, getting there as fast and safely as possible is a reasonable approach.

Several CH'ers have used an accelerated dosing schedule of 20,000 to 25,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus a loading dose of 50,000 IU vitamin D3 once a week on top of the daily dose to elevate their 25(OH)D serum concentration into the green zone as rapidly as possible.

For reference, a 50,000 IU loading dose is common and considered conservative...  If the vitamin D3 loading dose is computed based on weight and a final serum concentration of 70 ng/mL, the loading dose can range from 100,000 IU/week for a 150 lb person to 140,000 IU/week for a 200 lb person.  See the following link for additional details:

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It's important to get another lab test for 25(OH)D after a month on any accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule.  At that point you can adjust the vitamin D3 dose accordingly. 

If you're unable to get this second lab test at that point, it's prudent to drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day. 

As you can see from the chart above, a 10,000 IU/day dose of vitamin D3 should eventually result in a stable 25(OH)D serum concentration around 85 ng/mL. That's the optimum serum concentration for CH'ers.  It also provides sufficient reserves in the event of a viral infection (colds, flu) which can cause your immune system's T-Cells to deplete 25(OH)D rapidly in response to the viral infection and still leave enough to prevent CH.

If 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 elevates your 25(OH)D above 90 ng/mL, drop the vitamin D3 dose to 8,000 IU/day and test again after a month.  This is called "tuning" the regimen. 

The half-life of 25(OH)D at these serum concentrations is likely little more than a week so 25(OH)D levels can drop rapidly... It's easy (and a lot less painful) to lower serum 25(OH)D concentrations than it is to raise them...

As with any treatment, if you experience any serious problems/reactions, stop the regimen and see your PCP or neurologist. 

The most common reported side effects are an upset tummy and loose bowel.  The upset tummy is usually due to the Omega-3 Fish Oil, and the loose bowel is due to magnesium which has a known side effect of osmotic diarrhea if too much is taken.

If either of these side effects occur, stop taking the Omega-3 Fish Oil or Magnesium supplements as appropriate until the side effect clears.  Wait a few days to a week then add back half the original dose.  This is also part of the regimen "tuning" process.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Oct 5th, 2013 at 3:12am
Batch

Because we don't have 5000 and 10000IU tablets here in South Africa you recommended to use the 50 000IU tabs a bit differently, my level is 63ng/ml after 2 weeks. I will go on taking the 50 000IU tabs every 5th day and have my levels tested in a months time

I get hit only twice a day now. 90min after falling asleep, and at 5am which the O2 aborts easily. I'm still conscious of it at the normal times it always happened but no pain!
My smell triggers are still going on, I'm trying to avoid it as far as possible.

Thanks 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Oct 5th, 2013 at 9:19am
Hey Hell-jee, Maybe you can get your supplements online. I get all of mine on iherb.com (including D3 @ 5000mg per capsule). Iherb is much cheaper than here in Ireland and they have a much wider selection. Iherb also does a US$4 posting option for packages under 4 pounds weight with very little risk of the customs intercepting the package and loading extra taxes. Also this month they are doing an offer of free postage for this option, I think for an order over US$40.

Batch, I recently got my D3 level tested, I will report here as soon as I get the results back.

All the best to all.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by godsjoy777 on Oct 5th, 2013 at 10:07am
Thanks again Batch for being our guru here....Our go to guy!

Colorado vacation was half and half.  Glenwood Springs was not so much fun as I got hits all day and night the first few days.   I can't even remember how many as we traveled.  There were at least 2 full days of rain (My head felt the barametric pressure).  The altitude was not that high (only around 5000 feet).  AND I should NEVER NEVER NEVER have gone to the Hot springs pool.  Needless to say I got a bad hit that day.  Kip 10 and my husband was down the street with the keys to the cars with the O2 tank in it.  Not a happy afternoon.

We did try to get to a higher altitude later on in the week.  The hits got much more manageable.  We stayed in Woodland Park ( approx. 9000 feet) and I only had 2 easy hits that night.  I don't know why but the higher the altitude the better.  We ran out of time and had to come home.  Hits were day and night again and ramping up until I decidedly took control of what went into my body.  At least 2 liters of lemon water, Vit D3 (10-15000 IUs), Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, EPA/DHA and simple alkaline foods.  My hits have gotten easier.  2 hits last night, NO hits the night before and only one hit the previous night.  I will monitor my food and liquid intake closely and see if they don't go away completely.  I am on week 5.  My cycle last time was 6 months though the "usual is about 12 to 16 weeks.

Blessings,
Karen

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Oct 5th, 2013 at 10:09am
thanks Thierry, my brother sent me some from Canada, just waiting for it to arrive.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Oct 23rd, 2013 at 1:22pm
Batch; I don't know if you remember me, but I posted on the boards and this thread a couple of years ago. I asked questions about how much d3 was safe to take and all that.

It seems like you've done even more research since then. Based on the more recent info I've been reading, I thought I'd mention that I've been taking 10,000 IU of D3 daily for a pretty steady time now... about a year now, maybe a bit longer.

I don't take it for CH, but because I've read that most people are deficient to some degree in vitamin d3. So I figured it'd be good for me to take it, just for good health.

But I haven't ever gotten my blood checked to see what my levels are. I only take 10,000 IU, but do you think I should get my blood checked if I continue to take it?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 8th, 2013 at 2:07pm
Hey Jair,

Yes I remember you and sorry I missed your last post...  I took the complete anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for two years and my highest 25(OH)D serum concentration was 85 ng/mL in mid summer.  Over the last year I've increased the dose to an average of 15,000 IU/day and my last 25(OH)D lab test was 92 ng/mL.

Even though you're taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, it's still prudent to see your PCP for the 25(OH)D lab test at least once a year.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Nov 9th, 2013 at 4:12am
Hi Batch, I hope you are well.
It is soon after finding out about this forum (last february -2013-)and the D3 regimen that you have designed after much research that i started taking all the vits/supplements included in the regimen. my D3 level 1 week after having started the regimen was 49 nmol/L. During the fist 3 to 4 weeks the CHs behaved strangely (changing side, coming on for 5 minutes and going again, different kind of pain sensation).
However after 4 weeks the CHs were gone. After 2 months on the regimen I stopped taking the preventative that the neuro had prescribed - 500 mg twice a day of Epilim Chrono 500- and remained pain free. I was glad to stop this because it was giving me a slight shake in my hands.

The worse time for my CHs has always been June and Oct/Nov. Last june -after being in the regimen for just 3 months, I experienced CHs for only about 2 weeks (my spring cycle usually lasted from 2 to 3 months), however they were much milder than the previous many years (max kip 5 to 6). I took Zomig 2.5mg a few times.

All has been well since and have had a fantastic summer with no CHs at all even when going in to the sauna regularly and exercising in the gym.

At the beginning of September i asked my doc for a D3 test, my level was 229 nmol/L.

Since i have started the regimen, I have been taking daily 10000iu D3 as well as Vit A 2500iu, Calcium citrate 400mg, fish oil 24000mg, magnesium citrate 400mg, Vit K2 120 mcg, Zinc 10 mg and Boron 3 mg. I have also been taking a weekly loading dose of D3 at 50000 iu.

About a week ago ago I started feeling CHs again at a low level -from Kip1 to 3- so I started 20000 iu D3 every 2 nd day. But 2 nights ago I had a kip 8 to 9 attack, it was awful, I had forgotten what it was like. This is a time of year when I would have Kip 9 to 10 every night for about 2 months so I am happy to be experiencing much less. Last night the beast did not wake me and i had a good night sleep after having had just shadows yesterday during the day.
I read today in your latest post on this thread (above) that you are now taking 15000 iu D3 every day for the last year.
I am thinking of taking 20000 iu D3 daily for the next few weeks, Do you think that is within safe limits? or should I just take 15000 iu like yourself? Also. if I increase my intake of D3, are there any of the other vits/supplements that should be increased too?
I wish to thank you deeply for all the work that you have put in researching this regimen and for your willingness to share it without limits so as to help so many of us.
All the best.
Thierry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Garys_Girl on Nov 9th, 2013 at 10:26pm
It's been a while since I've been on the boards. I'm so happy to see so many people finding relief with the anti-inflammatory regimen!

Just wanted to pipe in to say that apart from co-factors that can potentially confound the efficacy of the regimen in providing CH relief, if someone has tried the regimen witihout success, you might want to look into the role of ubiquinol (the bioactive form of CoQ10) in helping the body utilize the D3 (not sure utilize is the correct term).

We've joked about how Gary may not be human, but I stumbled on someone trying to increase D3 levels, and wasn't successful until ubiquinol was added to the pile of supplements. So something to consider. We'll see if it helps Gary.

Laurie


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Jair Crawford on Nov 10th, 2013 at 12:26am
Thanks Batch. And no prob about missing the post. You're doing the right thing by prioritizing for those who are using the regimen to battle CH, honestly, imo. So please, don't worry about when you get back to my posts about the regimen. It's a great regimen but those with CH need it more than I do and therefore I'd feel bad if they didn't get first priority. Hope that makes sense. lol I'm not always the best at wording things the way I intend to. lol

You say it's important to take the blood-test. Is that to find out if my levels are high enough/healthy/ideal? Or is it to make sure I'm not too high/toxic? Basically, even at only taking 10,000 IU a day, is there still a chance that I could have toxic levels?

Also, I've recently added 500 mg of Calcium Citrate, and 300 mg of krill oil.

I take krill oil cause my dad and I share it, and he's allergic to some fish, so he had to use something that he wouldn't be allergic to.

My question is, is krill oil any different in potency than the fish oil that you use? I also notice that (if I remember right) you use about 1800-2000 mg? So my 300 mg of krill oil might not be a high enough dose?

I really do appreciate your responses. Again, no rush. My questions don't need to be high priority.

Hoping that this regimen continues to work so well for you all!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 10th, 2013 at 11:55am
Good day Batch and all, An update:
Working with the D3 Regimen since mid September, trying to increase my level to the "pf" levels, should be there by now.
Sep 25 = 86 nmol/L
Oct 11 = 170 nmol/L
Nov  8 =  ____
Friday, Nov 8th blood test done, should have results by Tuesday Nov 12th.
I've had a few minor CH break thru's.
This Friday, woke up approx. 9:00pm with pressure on opposite side of my last cycle, np went back to sleep.
Last night (Saturday Nov 9th) 10:00pm, woke with kip 3, used oxygen.. np but not sure what's going on.

Religiously watching my intake of D3, dropped to 15,000/day for the last week in October, other than that my intake has been 25,000/day with one top up of 50,000 D3, Monday Nov 4th.
Don't really get it...

Shall be interesting to see my 25(OH)D results.  I'll post as soon as result known.
PFW's all

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 10th, 2013 at 5:28pm
Hey Thierry and Sue,

Thanks for your updates and good question Thierry.  The short answer is yes... bumping the vitamin D3 intake to 20,000 during the winter months may be necessary for some CH'ers to remain pain free, even though their 25(OH)D serum concentration is up in the green zone, 60 to 110 ng/mL (150 to 275 nmol/L) like yours.

Given your 25(OH)D serum concentration was up withing the green zone at 229 nmol/L, (91.6 ng/mL) in September, I wouldn't stay at 20,000 IU/day for more than a couple weeks before dropping back to 15,000 IU/day.  Keep the rest of the cofactors as listed... 

I'd also suggest seeing your PCP for lab tests of your 25(OH)D, total calcium, and PTH after 30 days on the above vitamin D3 dosing schedule.

Why some of us need a higher vitamin D3 intake to go pain free and stay that way is not entirely clear... and I don't have all the answers.  It's likely more complex than just the change of season with less UV-B from direct sunlight producing less cutaneous vitamin D3.

What we do know is our livers faithfully metabolize vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) in the first phase of metabolism into 25(OH)D3, (calcidiol) on a near one to one basis.

The next phase of vitamin D3 metabolism takes two different paths, the endocrine path through the kidneys and the extrarenal (outside the kidneys), autocrine path.  This second path takes place at the cellular and nuclear level throughout the body.  The following graphic illustrates these two paths:

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The endocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism travels through the kidneys where an enzyme, 1α-hydroxylase, adds another OH- radical to 25(OH)D3 forming 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol).  This process is not as efficient as the first phase of metabolism in the liver and it results in serum 1,25(OH)2D3  concentrations roughly 1000 times less than the 25(OH)D substrate. 

On top of that, the half life of 1,25(OH)2D3, the active metabolite, is roughly 10 to 20 hours. To complicate things even further, there are a number of competing processes that consume the 1,25(OH)2D3 we think is responsible for preventing our cluster headaches.

Viral and bacterial infections as well as allergic reactions to pollen, mold and fungus spores are the likely culprits.  All these antigens trigger our immune system's T-Cells into action and massive reproduction. This rapid bloom of T-Cells consumes a lot of 25(OH)D and likely most of the available serum concentration of 1,25(OH)2D3.

As you can see in the above graphic, roughly 20% of the serum concentration of 1,25(OH)2D3 is responsible for calcium homeostasis (maintaining optimum serum calcium concentrations), as it's capable of pulling calcium from food or supplements we've taking present in the gut... or from our bones where 99% of the calcium in our bodies resides.  Calcium homeostasis maintains serum calcium concentrations in a very narrow range.

Our parathyroids produce PTH (parathyroid hormone) that acts as a catylist in the kidneys to increase the metabolism of 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3 when the total calcium serum concentration is at the low end of its normal reference range.  The increased 1,25(OH)2D3 serum concentration speeds up absorption of calcium from the gut and bones.

When the total calcium serum concentration is at the high end of its normal reference range, the parathyroids slow or stop producing PTH. This slows the metabolism of 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D3 and that slows the absorption of calcium from the gut and bones.

As a side note, too much PTH, a condition called hyperparathyroidism, can signal the kidneys to produce too much 1,25(OH)2D3 from even relatively small sustained doses of vitamin D3...  and that pulls too much calcium from the gut and bones resulting in total calcium serum concentrations above the normal reference range...  in short, vitamin D3 toxicity.

The autocrine path of extrarenal vitamin D3 metabolism accounts for roughly 80% of the 25(OH)D produced.  Metabolism along this path takes place at the cellular and nuclear level in several different types of tissues throughout the body including nerve tissues. 

In this case, the same enzyme present in the kidneys that helps metabolize 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3 is also present at the cellular level but in much smaller concentrations. 

1,25(OH)2D3, the active metabolite of vitamin D3 attaches to sockets on the DNA chain called vitamin D receptor elements (VDRE).  The process of bonding 1,25(OH)2D3 to the DNA chain also involves retinoic acid receptors (vitamin A) as illustrated in the following two graphics:

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This is where things get interesting... Although the actual mechanism of action has yet to be conclusively identified, (how vitamin D3 prevents cluster headache), it appears genetic expression is a key player.

In particular, it appears from some studies, vitamin D3 has the capacity to down-regulate or suppress the production of calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) that other studies have found elevated during active cluster and migraine headaches.

Dr. Robert Heaney, MD describes genetic expression best as "The expression of proteins and peptides necessary for control of cell proliferation, differentiation, and apoptosis (cell death).

Because these functions are critical for most body tissues, notably epithelial integrity and the immune response, it is perhaps not surprising that inadequate vitamin D availability may limit both the performance of the tissues concerned and
their control of various aspects of the cell cycle."

Dr. Heaney also explained the diversity of effect seems to be an expression of the fact
that there are roughly 800 human genes for which there is a vitamin D response element.

I realize this is a long-winded answer... It's the best I can do without dedicated studies with detailed laboratory analysis to back it up.

If you're still looking for a simplified explanation why we can still get hit with a 25(OH)D serum concentration in the green zone, 60 to 110 ng/mL, (150 to 275 nmol/L)...  Think of it as a bucket brigade to put out a fire... 

You start out with a 100 gallons of water... but the buckets get smaller and there's more spillage on each exchange the closer they get to the fire...  The last bucket thrown at the fire might contain as little as a cup of water... or less...

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 12th, 2013 at 1:44pm
OK, I got my 25(OH)D results today and it's 67.1 ng/ml.

I'm on the 5th week of a cycle, after 9 days of taking 15,000 IU D3 (before that I took 10K a day). I also use melatonin (10mg) and avoid triggers the best I can. Aborts with O2.

Nevertheless - I'm still getting hit at least once a day and most of the nights and have shadows most of the time. The bright side is that my attacks are less violent this year. Most are KIP 4-5 instead of KIP 6-8 in past years.

Sadly, the triptan I'm using (solvable Rizatriptan wafers) which used to be very effective for me, has become less effective and makes me feel really bad.

So, what's next?




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 12th, 2013 at 4:03pm
Hi Batch, oops!  My results are 373 nmol/L, now to high...
If you will please give me directions to bring this amount down..
I've been taking 25,000/day and still getting one hit a night.  Last night kip 3/4, used oxygen to abort.
I haven't been taking any calcium, but all other co-factors I've tried to stay in-line to the regimen.
Perhaps increase the magnesium?

I thank you for any suggestions that you can think of!
Thanks Batch, thanks so much...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 12th, 2013 at 4:38pm
Sorry Batch, I was at work sending my last post. I guess that result is not that bad... I'm not sure of the calculation to convert to ng/mL's. 
Your thoughts are appreciated....
Should I slow my in-take of D3? Possibly increase magnesium? I still want this to work!
Thanks again!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 12th, 2013 at 4:47pm
My apoligizes for all these posts...
I'm taking everything to the tee as the regimen suggests, except calcium.
However a naturalpath suggested Magnesium Bisglycinate, could that be something to look at changing?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:11pm
Hey Sue,

Good questions and thanks for the clarification...  373 nmol/L 25(OH)D, (149.2 ng/mL) is a little high... but no big deal as long as your total calcium stays within the normal reference range.  The important thing is staying PF...

To convert nmol/L to ng/mL, divide by 2.5

The half-life of 25(OH)D is much shorter at higher serum concentrations, i.e., it drops rapidly without supplementation. 

Accordingly, dropping your vitamin D3 intake to 15,000 or 10,000 IU/day should bring your serum concentration of 25(OH)D down just fine. 

Drop your vitamin D3 dose to 15,000 IU/day for a week.  If there's no breakthrough recurrence of your CH... drop your vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.  It can take two to three weeks to stabilize.

As always, check with your PCP after a month at the lower dose to make sure your 25(OH)D is near 85 ng/mL, (212.5 nmol/L).

Hope this helps,

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 12th, 2013 at 8:32pm
Thanks Batch, much appreciated, I'll keep you posted. Sue  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 13th, 2013 at 4:53am
Good Morning... I know I've taken a lot of space up here, just wanted to report my night was clear.  After reading your reply Batch, I took my night time Vit's which included 5,000D3, a total of 15,000 for yesterday. 
I slept well with no CH break through. 
I will follow the steps you have suggested. I feel good, hopefully this continues... I really want this to work.
I can't thank you enough Batch.

Cheers!
Sue

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hell-jee on Nov 13th, 2013 at 3:07pm
Hi Batch!

Thank you so much for your reply on Anthony's threat and that link. Thought I'll go on posting here.

Because of my lower abdominal discomfort I took only vit K and magnesium on Friday and Saturday, my abdomen felt better but had 2 hits again Saturday night, so I took everything again but the calcium on Sunday, and only magnesium yesterday and today.

Went for test today and like Sue vit D high at 108.3 ng/ml, Calcium at the high end 2.32 mmol/l and PTH in the middle at 39pg/ml. If I understood correctly you said something about if the Ca is to the higher end the PTH must be to the lower end then it is ok?

I am going to see a naturalpath who is also a medical dr next week to help me. My GP is not interested.

You are such a clever guy, thanks a million!!




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 13th, 2013 at 5:48pm
Hell-Jee,

I'm not a physician and clearly not qualified to interpret medical diagnostic lab results... That said, I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few years ago...  and I've been looking at lab tests from CH'ers taking this regimen like you for nearly 3 years...

Accordingly, I'd say your labs are spot on...  108.3 ng/mL is clearly in the "Green Zone" (60 to 110 ng/mL) where most CH'ers experience a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.   Yes... it's above the normal reference range of 30 to 100 ng/mL. However, as long as your total calcium is within limits, there shouldn't be any worry.

That concentration should also keep you pain free or at least significantly reduce the frequency, severity and duration of your CH.

Your total calcium at 2.32 mmol/L is well within the normal reference range, 2.2 to 2.6 mmol/L as expected, so there's no indication of vitamin D3 intoxication.

As your total calcium is in the lower half of it's reference range, your PTH at 39 pg/mL is as expected, in the middle of its normal reference range (17 to 70 pg/mL).

I can't speak for the Naturopathic physician.  However, once you explain your use of the anti-inflammatory regimen, the target 25(OH)D serum concentration you're shooting for, and the results from using this regimen with respect to controlling your cluster headache, I'd be surprised if your Naturopathic/Integrative physician didn't concur...

Take care, and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 13th, 2013 at 7:07pm
Any suggestions for me (my question is just before sue's...)?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 13th, 2013 at 11:30pm
Hey Shooky,

Sorry about the late response to your question...  67 ng/mL is at the low end of the 60 to 110 ng/mL "Green Zone."

That said, given you're already at 67 ng/mL after 10 days at 15,000 IU/day and earlier at 10,000 IU/day, bumping your daily vitamin D3 intake to 20,000 IU/day for one week and adding a single 50,000 IU loading dose should boost your 25(OH)D into the high end of the green zone.   

That should provide a therapeutic response with a cessation of your CH or significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of them.  If that doesn't take you pain free, take one more 50,000 IU loading dose on top of your maintenance dose...

Try to get another lab test for 25(OH)D 30 days after increasing your dose to 15,000 IU/day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 14th, 2013 at 5:21am
Thanks Batch. I sure will. Meanwhile: PF again for the 2nd day.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 14th, 2013 at 8:05am
Woo Hoo!  That's the kind of news I love to hear.  Good on you Shooky!

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Nov 14th, 2013 at 8:57am
I'm not a physician and clearly not qualified to interpret medical diagnostic lab results... That said, I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few years ago...    

yer killing me smalls!!! ;D ;D ;D

Shooky that's awesome news, over 3 years pain free here on the "Batch Regimen"...may your results echo mine!

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 14th, 2013 at 5:11pm
Thanks guys, but several hours after my last post I got another attack. Was out and it took me some time to get to the O2, so it was a nasty one. But then again - took me only 6 minutes to abort.

Will up the D3 and keep you posted.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on Nov 15th, 2013 at 1:36pm
I had been enjoying 6 months pf with this regimen, till the beast showed back up 2 weeks ago. I might have missed a few days here and there, but mostly I kept taking 10,000 iu.s d3 along with the other cofactors.

I had blood work done a week ago and the results:
25(oh) D= 74 ng/ml
calcium= 9.7 mg/dl
Doc said everything looked great except for lipids (total cholesterol-235, ldl-138, hdl-44 m/dl)

I know 74 ng/ml is a little below the ideal, but back in May  when I went pf my d3 level was 60 ng/ml. I had to add the baking soda/alka seltzer trick to get pf and I have restarted this again right after the first ha.

Thoughts Batch????



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 15th, 2013 at 6:06pm
Hey Erk,

Thanks for the update.  Based on a lot of reading backed up by feeback from hundreds of CH'ers using this regimen... it appears that seasonality - less direct UVB from sunlight in the fall and winter months and competing biological processes can result in lower serum concentrations of 25(OH)D and/or the active metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3. 

The net result is a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 may not be sufficient to keep us pain free 100% of the time.

Competing biological processes include, but are not limited to, immune system responses to viral and bacterial infections, (colds & flu), sub-clinical allergic reactions to pollen, fungus & mold spores, and other airborne irritants. 

Any of the above conditions are capable of triggering inflammation with an immune response... This list represents the most common culprits, but it's not all-inclusive as there are obviously other sources of inflammation...

Our immune system's T-Cells are major consumers of both 25(OH)D, (calcidiol) and 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol).  Moreover, it shouldn't come as a surprise that trauma and surgery are also major consumers of 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)2D3 as both result in inflammation. 

There are several studies that have found that serum 25(OH)D concentrations can drop by 40% or more due to trauma or surgery.  We have one CH'er who broke his ankle while on the anti-inflammatory regimen and had his cluster headaches flare up within a few days. 

He was taking 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 prior to the fracture and his 25(OH)D was holding around 85 ng/mL.  Vitamin D3 was providing a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of his cluster headaches.   

A few days after the fracture... Whamo! His cluster headaches came back with a vengeance.  I suggested he see his doctor for another 25(OH)D lab test and increase his vitamin D3 intake if it was below the "green zone."  He went in for lab test and sure enough, his 25(OH)D serum concentration had dropped below 60 ng/mL. 

He discussed an increase in his vitamin D3 intake with his doctors, who have been keeping close tabs on his progress with this regimen, then increased it to 25,000 IU/day and added a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose.  After two weeks, he went in for another 25(OH)D lab test. 

450,000 IU of vitamin D3 over two weeks should have elevated his 25(OH)D up to at least 100 ng/mL...  if not higher...  It was 62 ng/mL... 

It's clearly possible there are other reasons for the low 25(OH)D response...  That said, it sure looks to me that inflammation associated with the fractured ankle is the obvious culprit...

The good news is his cluster headaches are back under control...

The bottom line... One size doesn't fit all when it comes to cluster headaches...  We've learned this time and time again over the years...  I arrived at a 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 dose for several reasons... 

One of the reasons for this dose is it results in an average 25(OH)D serum concentration of 80 ng/mL... and that proves effective as a preventative for 80% of the CH'ers who use it... under "normal" conditions...  Some of us will need a higher dose at times.

When that happens and you do need more vitamin D3, see your PCP for a lab test for 25(OH)D then adjust your vitamin D3 intake as necessary. 

Try to keep your vitamin D3 intake at or below an average of 30,000 IU/day, 900,000 IU/month until you're again pain free then drop back to a maintenance dose that sustains a pain free response.

If you do increase your vitamin D3 dose over 10,000 IU/day, be sure to get tested again for 25(OH)D, total calcium and PTH (parathyroid hormone) after a month.

If your PCP or medical insurance reps give you a bad time or say "No" to the additional lab tests...  Tell them you can always go back to home oxygen therapy and the nine sumatriptan succinate (imitrex/imigran) injections a month at $100 a pop street price then see what they say...

If that doesn't work, and you live here in the US... call your state medical insurance commissioner and explain the situation along with the economics of vitamin D3 therapy...  They're getting all kinds of attention now that the wheels are falling off obamacare...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 24th, 2013 at 6:24pm
After 10 days on the daily 20,000 IU D3 + one loading dose of 50K IU. No noticeable change I'm afraid. Will try another loading dose in a few days, but in this point (7 weeks into cycle) if I go PF I will not be able to tell if that's my the end of my cycle or the green area. :(

On the bright side: I'm getting hit several times every day and once or twice every night, but most of the time attacks are easily aborted with O2. Whether it is the regimen, the better use of O2, or any of the other changes I made, this cycle is not nearly as terrible as the one I had last year. And no prednisone this time :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:41pm
Hi shooky,
If you are a typical Spring and Autumn CH sufferer like me
then your cycle should soon be over. In the meantime, take
25,000iu D3 daily this may help end the cycle. I started the
D3 regime Spring 2012, it did'nt stop my CH's then, but i've
been pain free ever since.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 25th, 2013 at 8:26am
Thanks Hoppy. I don't know if that's what I am.

My last 3 cycles started May 2010, July 2011 and late August 2012. This one started October 2013. So I guess I'm more of a Summer & Autumn sufferer (although 2009 cycle started in January. Prior cycles were mostly during between May and September though).

My 25OH was 67ng/ml two weeks ago, so I guess it should be somewhere around 75-80ng/ml by now.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Nov 25th, 2013 at 4:08pm
Hi shooky,
It will never cease to amaze me, how the [smiley=evil.gif]
works in such mysterious ways.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Nov 26th, 2013 at 12:43am
And I can now post a variation on the subject as:


Quote:
666 Days PF And I Think I know Why


For anyone reading and still needing to be convinced, please do give this a go as it really does work for so many of us.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 26th, 2013 at 5:08am
As I already said, even though the regimen didn't make me PF (yet...) my attacks are far less sever than in past cycles and are easier to abort. 4-6 minutes with O2 were enough in most cases, and I didn't even have to hyperventilate.

This happens after several years in which my cycles became longer and more brutal from year to year.

Also, my test results are much much better than last year on any aspect (LDL down, T up, GGT/GOT down etc.). This may be also due to the fact that I lost some weight, but the results are better even compared to those I got 10 years ago when I was both younger and thinner.

So yes, the regimen does seem to do a lot of good for me even though I'm not PF. yet...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Nov 26th, 2013 at 6:08am
Shooky,
I understand your frustration. I've been in a erratic cycle since August (I'm normally a 2 month spring girl) and although I have been on 15,000 D3 since mid Sept. am still not PF. I am up to 20,000 and will do a loading dose tonight, then back to the PCP after another week to see where I stand.

I honestly believe the mild summer and crazy weather back east have messed my cycles up. My friends are having more migraines too.

Here's hoping your cycle ends either from the regimen or naturally. Either way, wishing you PF days ahead.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Nov 26th, 2013 at 7:52pm
Ditto :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 27th, 2013 at 5:20pm
Hi Batch and all! 
Well here's a brief recap: Started Regimen Mid Sept.
Sept 25 -  86 nmol/L
Oct 11   - 170 "
Nov  8   - 373 "
PF now no break thru's since Nov 22nd, (whooohoo! lol, something to dance about eh)
Here's the scoop with the intake of D3
- Was doing 25,000/daily
- Week of Nov 10th: deceased D3 to 15,000/daily
- Week of Nov 17th: deceased D3 to  6,000/daily and continuing. 

Three questions I'd like your advise on Batch!
1.) Do you feel I should increase my D3 intake to 10,000 instead of staying at the 6000/daily?

2.) I have a concern: The Semimembranosus or Semitendinosis muscle (back of femur bone)has been achey for about two weeks now. Last night I woke up with a wicked charlie horse. Got up, finally got my foot to the floor, instantly felt hot, dizzy,queezy and immediately laid down across the bottom of my bed lengthwise. If not, I think I was going to pass out! Crazy eh.
Long story short, do you think this has anything to do with my 25(OH)D level?

3.) I have a neuro appointment Jan 6th, I'd like him to get on board with this... yeah, I know... we'll see.   
Do you think Dec 30th would be the ideal time to re-test the 25)OH)D again? 

Appreciate your thoughts, as always!! Your the best, Thanks again! Happy Thanksgiving to you mate  ;)
Sue

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 27th, 2013 at 11:05pm
Hey Sue,

Thanks for the update and happy Thanksgiving to you too...  Glad to hear you're pain free.  You've got some good data points on your 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3 dose.

A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 337 nmol/L is a little high, but still quite safe as it's well below the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 500 nmol/L. 

212 nmol/L is the target serum concentration for your 25(OH)D...  We have the most information from CH'ers taking a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and that dose should keep you at or near the target 25(OH)D serum concentration.  You can confirm that with your next 25(OH)D lab test the end of December. 

When you schedule your 25(OH)D lab test,  ask for the lab tests for total serum calcium and PTH.  That way you'll have all the important bio parameters you'll need to get your neurologist on board with the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Regarding the achey leg and wicked charlie horse...  I don't recall any reports of cramps from posts here at CH.com or from the online survey...  at least not attributed to vitamin D3.  That doesn't mean there isn't a connection.  For now you've added another data point to the anti-inflammatory regimen database.

How much calcium are you taking? Magnesium? How about table salt or potassium?  Leg cramps are strange things... and there's no clear cause unless you've been doing some serious physical activity...  That said, it doesn't take much of a shift in blood chemistry to put things a little out of balance.  Some Gatorade might just help.

If you're taking less than 400 mg/day magnesium increase the dose to 400 mg/day for a few days... If the cramps continue, bump the magnesium to 500 mg/day.  Try to get magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate.

These salts of magnesium have better bio-availability and are less likely to cause osmotic diarrhea. 

Hope this helps... 

Take care and please keep us posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Nov 28th, 2013 at 4:48am
hi Batch, I hope you are well, of these 3 types of magnesium:
magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate and magnesium citrate, can you put them in the right order as regards which are the best ones in the regimen please. I currently use Magnesium citrate.
Thanks   :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Imitrex4Breakfast on Nov 28th, 2013 at 8:54am
LOL~ Mag Citrate is a powerful laxative!  Stay near a toilet for goodness sakes !!  :o

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 28th, 2013 at 12:34pm
Hey Thierry,

The three salts of magnesium (magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate and magnesium citrate,) are in the order of preference.

Henry Lahore, the Vitamin D3 Jedi Master at VitaminDWiki has compiled some fascinating information on magnesium supplements and dosing.  Read through the following page and you'll have the latest well-rounded information on the type and optimum dose of magnesium supplements...

See: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Read each article/study carefully as you'll find opinions differ on the type of magnesium and how much to take...

One of the interesting factoids you'll find on this web page follows:

"Magnesium is required to transform Vitamin D from its storage form to its active form.  That means if you take the extremely high doses that allopathic doctors are now recommending you can plummet into magnesium deficiency and not know what the heck is happening."

This is why I asked Sue how much magnesium she's taking...

Comment:  "Extremely high doses of vitamin D3" is a relative term...  To the bureaucrats at the Institute of Medicine at NIH/HHS, anything over 400 IU/day is extreme...  While patients suffering from RRMS will say 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is excessive if taken over a month...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Nov 28th, 2013 at 4:01pm
Thanks Batch!!! You are so awesome!

Not taking any Calcium supplements as yet.  As far as the other vitamins & etc. noted in your regimen, I'm dedicated to taking the "noted" amounts said in your regimen excluding the Calcium at the moment.

With my next appointment for the 25(OH)D test, I will try to ask for total serum calcium and PTH.
What is PTH?  lol  I probably can look through your notes and find this out.. (excuse my ignorance :) )

As far as the wicked charlie horse! well... hopefully it cures it self, I will keep in mind of increasing the mag.  No I've had no serious physical activity, wish I did!

Thanks for the great suggestions and always your support,

Hopefully, all will be well until the new year, Until then, Take Care, hope you and your family enjoy your Thanksgiving,
All the best :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 28th, 2013 at 5:55pm
Sue,

Sorry about that... PTH is the parathyroid hormone...  It works as a cataylist along with 1aOHase, an enzyme in the kidneys, to aid in the metabolism of 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3, the active metabolite and hormonal form of vitamin D3.

Too much PTH is usually an indication of a parathyroid problem (hyperparathyroidism) and too much PTH leads to an over production of 1,25(OH)2D3... That, in turn, pulls too much calcium from the gut and bones so leads to hypercalcaemia... too much calcium in the blood... a.k.a. vitamin D3 intoxication...

Your total calcium and PTH should be normal... i.e., within their normal reference ranges, and that should help calm any possible angst on the part of your neurologist over taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

For what it's worth, enzyme names always end in "ase" and they're named for what they do, the compound they work on or the end product they create...

In this case 1aOHase adds an [OH] radical to the 1st carbon on the 25-Hydroxyvitamin D a.k.a. 25(OH)D molecule.... which is vitamin D3 with an [OH] radical attached to the 25th carbon in the vitamin D3 molecule.

Another enzyme most people are familiar with is lactase.  Lactase is essential to the complete digestion of whole milk. Lactase breaks down lactose, a simple sugar which gives milk its sweetness. 

Many adults lack this enzyme so become what's called lactose intolerant...  i.e. drink whole milk and come down with a tummy ache and or lots of gas...

Back to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  I've spoken with a number of vitamin D3 experts and Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy...  They all say magnesium is an essential part of vitamin D3 repletion therapy and to take as much as you can tolerate without getting loose as a goose. 

Calcium, zinc and boron are also important parts of the anti-inflammatory regimen as is vitamin A (retinol).  Vitamin D3's genetic expression capacity requires retinol and there are some experts that claim we need vitamin K2 when taking vitamin D3 at the doses needed to prevent cluster headache.

Hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Dec 1st, 2013 at 8:08pm
Update: after a second loading dose and two days on 25,000 IU, I'm PF again. I know for a fact that I'm still in active cycle, because an afternoon nap triggered shadows, but after 2 weeks with 1-2 nocturnal hits and frequent shadows during the day (most didn't evolve into attacks due to O2 use) I had 3 days and 2 nights with no attacks.

Also, I decreased my melatonin dose from 10mg to 5mg, after noticing the higher dose made me groggy in the morning. This is pretty different from what I know from previous cycles and to my understanding means my body started naturally producing melatonin again.

That confirms my suspicion, that the D3 mechanism of action may have less to do with it's being anti-inflamatorry and more with hormonal modulation and/or suppression of hypothalamic activity. Another interesting indication: my sensitivity to smells (usually starts weeks before a cycle, and later on becomes a series trigger) has noticeably decreased in the past few days.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Dec 1st, 2013 at 8:20pm
Whoohoo! Doing the happy dance for you! Hopefully, I'll be dancing with you soon.

Judy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 1st, 2013 at 11:44pm
Hey Shooky,

Great news!  I appreciate your comments... 

The capacity of vitamin D3 metabolites to down-regulate/suppress production of calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) is the leading mechanism of action of the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing cluster headache... but it's clearly not the only possibility.

Thanks for your observations... They do help...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Dec 11th, 2013 at 3:19am
well, I thought ide report in.
I first started the vit regime around june, with confirmation that I was deficient, 52 nmol, second blood test in September I was at 195 nmol.
I was in the middle of a cycle when I started and for me I felt a difference but the cycle still hang around.
ive been on 180 of verapamil from the start, once a day, I tried weening off in October, but the shadows returned within a couple of weeks. im now weening off verapamil now, and hopefully I can stand alone on the vit regime.
I really need to get blood tested again, but have missed the boat with getting a doctors app before xmas.
I haven't taken an imigran tablet since end of july    yahoo
I have had consistant shadows over this time and ive simply sculled a redbull and rode it out, the worst has been probably a kip 3.  last week for about 5 days I was getting woken up 2-4 times a night, with what I was sure would ramp up to a biggy, but either swigging a red bull or an ice cold glass of water would kill it in no more than 5 minutes.
I played around a bit, and doubled my fish oil intake from 1500mg to 3000 mg and it had an immediate effect on my night time wake up shadows.
there's some times I sit there, getting that flushed, hot feeling, but no cluster attack.   
December and January are my danger times, as last year this is when it started again, so im cautiously riding this wave and will report back afterwards and let you know how ive gone.
all I can say is, if what ive experienced over the last 3 to 4 months is a result of the vit regime, with minor shadows etc, continues, then I will be one very very happy little camper  !!!!!!
I know its made a difference, and im strictly sticking with all the co factors and hoping ive found that sweet spot...

kindest regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 11th, 2013 at 10:09am
Hey Colin,

Thanks for the update.  Omega-3 is kind of a sleeper in the anti-inflammatory regimen... but it's a very important part of it due to it's anti-inflammatory properties.  It also helps vitamin D3 absorption.

A shadow is still a cluster headache so if you continue to have them...  you can also "tune" this regimen by upping the vitamin D3 dose by 5,000 IU/day and watch what happens to your shadows.  Your average target 25(OH)D serum concentration should be 212 nmol/L and the extra vitamin D3 will help to get you there and keep you there.

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Dec 11th, 2013 at 10:12am
Colin that's great news, hopefully you'll catch me at 3.5 years pain free, it's been a beautiful thing.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Dec 12th, 2013 at 2:04am
thanks batch,   yes ive been that busy ive missed the time to get another blood test and an appointment at the doctor, which would tell me exactly where I am. as mentioned, ive felt that this cycle never really ended, so that's nearly 8 months long. but the severe hits finished in septemberish.   im currently taking 10,000 vit d but when ive had shadows periodically ive bumped it up to 15-20,000 for a couple of days, then gone back to the 10,000 dose.
  so I guess, after my danger months, jan and feb i'll have a real good indication of how im going.
I guess the regime might work differently for some people, I play with the volumes of calcium and magnesium depending on my diet.  but upping the fish oil certainly had an instant result with my night time shadows.
  i'll be off verapamil in the next few days,  so im really testing things out now  lol
cant stress enough to people trying the regime,   stick with it for the long term,  it didn't kill the cycle I was having when I started, but its having an effect now,   have faith
joe,  3.5 years, that is so brilliant !!!
           that's life changing,   great news.

kindest regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shooky on Dec 16th, 2013 at 7:37pm
An update:

I'm 5 days PF now which is the longest I've been since October. Had three weeks of a strange pattern in which I was PF for 2-3 days, than had 2-4 days with 1-2 night attacks and several daily attacks or constant shadows.

What seem to have finally killed this lingering cycle (I hope...): 10 days ago I started taking 10mg Amitrptyline (Elavil) with my melatonin (6-8mg). Such a tiny dose should have little effect if any, but I could see a real change right away and had 3 nights and days that were 100% PF. During these 3 days I went from 25,000 IU D3 to 20, than 15 than 10. Than had 2 nights with attacks. So I went strait back to 20,000 IU and am PF since - 5 PF days. Or actually 5 PF nights and 6 almost-PF days (have some shadows).

5 Weeks ago my OH25 results were 67ng/ml, and since than I was mostly on 20-25,000 iu daily, so I guess I'm somewhere around 100ng/ml now. Hope to get a new test soon.

Anyhow, although the regimen didn't make me PF right away and did not prevent me from going into cycle, it did seem to have made this one of my less painful cycles. Most of my attacks were KIP 3-5, easily abortable with O2 + an energy drink here and there. That's a huge change compared to last year's cycle in which I had many KIP7+ hits and had to use Prednisone.

Also, this happens after 5-6 years in which my cycles were getting longer and harder.

So I do feel lucky.

PF night everybody!






Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 16th, 2013 at 9:00pm
Hey Shooky,

Thanks for the update.  Building serum 25(OH)D can take time, even with vitamin D3 doses higher than 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day as you've already found out.

What really counts is not so much the vitamin D3 dose, but rather the resulting 25(OH)D serum concentration.  Make it a point to get your's checked as soon as possible.  Knowing the 25(OH)D serum concentration that keeps you pain free will come in handy next time around.

We've a growing number of ECH'ers who have stayed on this regimen year-round... while out of cycle and sailed through their usual cycle period pain free. 

10,000 IU/day is a great year-round maintenance dose for most CH'ers and it should keep most of them at a 25(OH)D serum concentration close to 80 ng/mL...  Some of us require a little less and some a little more...  It just takes a timely 25(OH)D lab test to find out...

There are a number of benefits to 25(OH)D lab tests beyond what's been discussed above... 

Walking your PCP or neurologist down the path to Ding Dong School or close to the clue bird about the anti-inflammatory regimen might just help the next CH'er that walks in to his or her office wondering what to try next...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Dec 24th, 2013 at 4:57pm

sue_g wrote on Nov 27th, 2013 at 5:20pm:
Hi Batch and all! 
Well here's a brief recap: Started Regimen Mid Sept.
Sept 25 -  86 nmol/L
Oct 11   - 170 "
Nov  8   - 373 "
PF now no break thru's since Nov 22nd, (whooohoo! lol, something to dance about eh)
Here's the scoop with the intake of D3
- Was doing 25,000/daily
- Week of Nov 10th: deceased D3 to 15,000/daily
- Week of Nov 17th: deceased D3 to  6,000/daily and continuing. 

I have a neuro appointment Jan 6th, I'd like him to get on board with this... yeah, I know... we'll see.   

Appreciate your thoughts, as always!! Your the best, Thanks again! Happy Thanksgiving to you mate  ;)
Sue

First off, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas! And Happy Holidays!
I don't expect a reply until after the holidays, but I'd like to post my December 18th results.

After the high results Nov 8th, I dropped my D3 to 15,000/day for one week, until Nov 16th.

Continued at 6000/day for 3 weeks, adding Calcium to my regimen on the fourth week, with an additional 2000 D3 (4th wk - 8000/day into the 5th week). 
Dec 18 (5th wk) at lower dose, results are:
25(OH)D  155nmol/L
PTH          3.1
Incorrect Ionized Cal  1.22
Correct Ionized Cal 1.21

My suspicions were correct, I dropped to far down.  :-[ But in saying that, I'm CH free!  So, all is good  :)

As of Dec 23rd, I've increased my D3 intake to 10,000/day and plan on staying at this level for at least another month.

I'd like to know your opinion Batch, after you enjoy the holiday season.  Also, if you could tell me how the PTH and Ionized Cal level looks, I'd appreciate it greatly. 

All the Best to you all, praying for all of you to be Pain Free.  Take care, Sue


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 26th, 2013 at 7:38pm
Hey Sue,

Thank you for the wonderful feedback.  It's a perfect tutorial on the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3 and the 25(OH)D response to dose of vitamin D3.

Hope you and yours had a wonderful pain free Christmas and here's to a Happy New Year.

Good questions... I'll address the vitamin D3 dose first.  When it comes to vitamin D3 requirements, the experts say a dose of 5,000 to 7,000 IU/day should result in 90% of the people taking it having a 25(OH)D serum concentration of at least 60 ng/mL.

Under perfect conditions, this same dose of vitamin D3 should keep 90% of CH'ers who respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen pain free...  Unfortunately, we rarely encounter perfect conditions...

Our immune system's T-Cells are major consumers of 25(OH)D.  The presence of viral, bacterial and allergy inducing antigens trigger T-Cells into rapid cell division resulting in an army of millions of Pac-Man-like white cell eating machines roaming around our body gobbling up the offending antigens.

The simple fact of life is we're exposed to these antigens all the time so our immune system is constantly responding.  Where we CH'ers run into trouble is when we're exposed new strain or a massive inoculation of antigens not previously experienced...

This triggers an even more vigorous immune response that consumes even more 25(OH)D.  When that happens, 25(OH)D levels will drop to the point where they're incapable of preventing CH... so we get hit!

As a side note, infections and allergies aren't the only source of inflammation...   Trauma, surgery, broken bones also result in inflammation that triggers an immune response...

10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 results in 90% of the CH'ers taking it achieving a 25(OH)D serum concentration of at least 80 to 85 ng/mL, (200 to 212 nmol/L). 

This buys us sufficient 25(OH)D reserves to fight off most viral and bacterial infections without compromising the CH preventative capacity.  All this happens automatically with no symptoms of infection.  In short, we never knew it happened.

However, when we do start experiencing symptoms of an infection like an upper or lower respiratory viral infection, i.e., a cold, flu or allergic reaction...  our immune system has been overrun by a new strain of antigens so it goes into a major immune response that drains our 25(OH)D reserves... and we get hit.

This is why I suggest another 25(OH)D lab test, doubling the daily maintenance dose of vitamin D3 from 10,000 IU/day to 20,000 IU/day and to add a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week at the first symptom of a cold or the flu.  It wouldn't hurt to bump the daily magnesium intake from 400 mg/day to 500 or 600 mg/day...

Maintain this dosing schedule with all the other supplements and vitamin D3 cofactors until the cold or flu symptoms have cleared completely.  At that point drop back to the maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day. 

Serum calcium and PTH (Parathyroid Hormone).  This gets a bit more complicated... but for starters, the lab results for your serum concentrations of calcium and PTH are right in the middle of their respective normal reference ranges... i.e., perfect with no signs of vitamin D3 intoxication...

The following graphic illustrates the relationship between serum calcium and PTH and the role they play in calcium homeostasis... 

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE 

When serum calcium is at the low end of its normal reference range, chemo receptors in the parathyroid glads detect the low serum calcium concentration and this triggers production of the parathyroid hormone, PTH elevating its serum concentration.

PTH in turn stimulates the kidneys to metabolize 25(OH)D produced by the liver, into 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3.  The extra 1,25(OH)2D3 pulls addition calcium from the gut raising the serum calcium concentration which in turn lowers the production of PTH in the parathyroid.

The actual mechanism of action in metabolizing 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3 involves the enzyme 1-a-25-Hydroxilase which adds an [OH-] radical to the 1-a-25 position on the 25(OH)D molecule...

Hope this answers the mail...  Have a happy New Year.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Dec 30th, 2013 at 9:21am
Good Morning Batch! 
And it is a great morning... I really am sooo grateful for your help & support.  I find if I think about it to long, I get quite teary eye'd..

Anyways, enough of that! I hope you and your family enjoyed Christmas holiday and cheers to our new year ahead!

Thank you for your comments, I'm feeling very positive about this regimen & will continue to monitor it carefully. I'll be honest, I can't say I totally understand the complete chemistry of this regimen as science was my weakest class. hah! But I will learn as I go along.

I've been episodic for 28 years now, but my cycles have changed over the years. The CH's seem to immune to a "drug", then it was time to move on to another drug... This year was the worst, I knew it was time to slow down and look what was happening to my condition, thanks to you all here...I feel so much better.

My question is, I'd like to know what are the chances of episodic going chronic? I here this happens sometimes..  Although, I think its the "pharmacical drugs" that could be the cuprits.
I believe diet and general lifestyle also plays a role.

One other question for you... My husband and I are off to the sunny south for one week end of January.  Do you have any suggestions how to monitor my D3 intake. 
Common sense tells me short intervals exposed to the sun without sunblock, then protection for the rest of the day. Although, hoping to enjoy a few cold ones as well  ;)  [smiley=beer.gif] .

Reviewing your comments; Sun's UVB at midday, can generate 10-15,000 I.U. of Vit D3 in as little as 15 minutes.
Therefore would you suggest I would need to keep an eye of how much sunlight I am exposed to daily? I'm just not sure how this vacation will affect my daily D3 regimen
Thanks in advance Batch..  [smiley=dankk2.gif]

Anyways, I wanted to get back to you before we bring in the New Year, to thank you for all you do!

Thank you for the Administrator's here and all the dedicated supporters of this site.   [smiley=applause.gif]
Wishing the best to you all for a Pain Free 2014.
Sue xxoo


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 30th, 2013 at 2:29pm
Hey Sue,

Good morning and Happy New Year you too!  Once again you've got some great questions.

I don't know why some episodic CH'ers become chronic.  It happened to me.  I was episodic and regular as clockwork with my cycles starting in April and lasting 6 to 8 weeks in duration until 2004.  That cycle never ended.

In May of 2005, my neurologists at NIH got in a huddle, did a kabuki dance, then pronounced that I was chronic...  Big deal... I already knew that.

The best information on this topic comes from the survey of 1134 cluster headache sufferers many of us took part in that was conducted by Dr. Todd Rozen and Royce Fishman in 2008:


[19] How would you describe the evolution/status of your cluster
headache?               Respondents: 1134


Started as episodic and stayed episodic 710   (62.61 %)
Started as episodic and became chronic 142   (12.52 %)
Started as chronic and stayed chronic      90   (7.94 %)
Started as chronic and became episodic   55   (4.85 %)
Started as episodic, became chronic, became episodic again 108   (9.52 %)
Started as chronic, became episodic, became chronic again    29   (2.56 %)

Total Responses             1134    (100.00 %)


Regarding changing your dose of vitamin D3 while on travel to sunny climates...  I wouldn't change a thing...  Our body's have a built-in control mechanism that limits the production of vitamin D3 in the skin when serum 25(OH)D concentrations are up in the range we need to prevent our CH.

My question to you is have you asked your husband to see his PCP for the 25(OH)D lab test... or started him on the anti-inflammatory regimen?  The health benefits from vitamin D3 are too numerous to dismiss... and I'll make a SWAG you'd like to have him around as long as possible...

Cheers, take care, have a Happy New Year and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Tony Only on Dec 31st, 2013 at 8:13am
Thanks to Batch and Vitamin D regimen !
I am wishing everyone Happy & Pain Free New Year !
Cheers for more new efficient treatment options available for everyone via awareness in years to come !
:)
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Dec 31st, 2013 at 4:14pm
Hi Tony,
Pleased to read you are feeling better at long last, i'm
also on the vitamin D3 regime, and still pain free. thanks
for sharing that video with us, amazing.

Wishing you a happy, and pain free 2014.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 8th, 2014 at 4:51pm
Hi all, first of all I wish to wish everyone a happy new year, may it be a happy, joyful, prosperous and most of all a pain free one.
For me, the last year has been for most of it pain free apart from a few shadows and very few attacks that have not reached a high kip and were kept short, i attribute this to having started on the D3 regimen in around march 2013. Previous to that i was going in to cycles of 3 months long twice a year with Kip 9 or 10 every night as well as some day time attacks.  Batch has been an amazing support and has always been willing to answer my questions be they on this or other threads as well as through private messages. Thank you Batch.
I have read a lot -if not all- about the D3 regimen here on this site and it has been a learning curve that i was eager to undertake, especially when i read how much the D3 regimen has helped so many of us.
I have another question to ask as I will be going for an operation on friday to remove 2 back teeth at the bottom of my mouth. The dentist i regularly go to was not able to take them out and after some X-rays it was evident that the only way to remove these problematic teeth, an operation is required. My gums will therefore be cut open in order to reach the roots which are not straight but rather are under other teeth.
I have read here in some posts that it is likely that my body will gobble up my D3 stocks that have accumulated over the last few months as a result of an operation and that it is likely that my D3 levels will drop, maybe to a level which might be below the therapeutic level for D3 to be effective for CH prevention.
I am wondering if anyone could enlighten me on this and what amounts of D3 i should be taking over the next few days/weeks in order to prevent an attack.
Thank you
Thierry  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 8th, 2014 at 8:55pm
Hey Thierry,

Good question...  I wouldn't change a thing.  If you've been taking at least 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and all the other vitamin D3 cofactors in the anti-inflammatory regimen, you should have sufficient 25(OH)D reserves to sail through oral surgery without any problems.

We've gone around the flagpole a few times on taking Omega-3 fish oil prior to elective surgery...  Many surgeons want their patients off Omega-3 fish oil for a week to 10 days prior to the surgery due to the possibility of increased bleeding... 

I've done a lot of checking and there does not appear to be any consistent or conclusive data from RCTs to support this practice... In fact there are several studies/RCTs that concluded taking Omega-3 fish oil up to 2 to 3 days of surgery had no effect on increased bleeding.  See the following study titled:

"Omega-3 and fish oil supplements do not cause increased bleeding during spinal decompression surgery"

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It concluded:   "We found no increase in intraoperative blood loss or postoperative bleeding complications associated with preoperative use of n-3FA supplements up to an average of 2.3 days before surgery.

Although further studies are necessary before this finding can be generalized to other types of spinal surgery, our study corroborates findings from investigations in other surgical specialties that suggest preoperative n-3FA is not associated with increased risk of intraoperative and postoperative bleeding."

Another study conducted at UC Davis came to the same conclusion...

"In summary, despite the known inhibition of platelet aggregation, clinically significant bleeding does not increase with the use of n-3 PUFAs (Omega-3 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids).

Since there is no evidence of harm, and given the implications of cancelling a major operation for both patients and health care systems, it seems prudent to proceed with an elective CABG (Coronary Artery Bypass Graft surgery), in a patient taking fish oil supplements."

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Given the above... The anti-inflammatory regimen should not pose a problem when having a wisdom tooth surgically removed.

My experience with this type of surgery came in my first few years with cluster headaches before diagnosis, when my doctors concluded my headaches were due to an impacted wisdom tooth... Not true as we all know...

That said, the surgical removal of my wisdom tooth made me feel like the Joker in Dark Knight...

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I was pleasantly annesthetised and sneakers up at the time... but it appeared they used a gaff hook to pull the corner of my mouth behind my ear to expose the surgical site...

The only lasting effect of this surgery has been a slight dip in my IQ scores... but that could also be due to the rum...  The sun is always over the yardarm in this neck of the woods...

On a lighter note...  Since starting the anti-inflammatory regimen over three years ago, the nicks, cuts, and bruises that come from living in the woods cutting fire wood and boat bites that come from racing sail boats... have all healed much faster... 

Take care and rest easy my friend...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 10th, 2014 at 9:16pm
Hey Batch thanks for your reply and advice. Had op this a.m, was a huge and painful job taking out one tooth so the dentist surgeon decided to leave it at one tooth for taday and he'll do the one on the other side another time. My face looks a bit like the pic on your post but just on one side. Feeling a bit light headed and smiling though with the pain killers i've been given -mainly codeine-.
Staying on 10000 D3 as well as the 50000 weekly loading dose, it's working well. I did up that dose to 20000 for a time when i had a sinus infection and i could feel shadows coming, it worked at getting me back PF.
All the best to you and yours.
Thierry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on Jan 12th, 2014 at 11:38am
  Greetings,

  My cycle has been going on since the first of November and has recently ramped up making life difficult to say the least.
  I had a full blood work done coincidentally at the time the cycle started. PCP said everything looked good except for high triglycerides. Liver function, thyroid, testosterone, etc. was great. My 25(oh)d was 74 ng/ml.
  Since I was experiencing symptoms I followed the accelerated dosing schedule for one month. Also trying to elevate my ph through diet/ baking soda trick. I have saliva testing strips, but what should my average daily reading be?

  I am taking no other prevents, only the following:

10,000 iu.'s  vitamine D3        ( natures bounty)
1400 mg.'s   omega3 fish oil    (spring valley)
400 mg.'s     mag. citrate       (vitamine shoppe brand)
200 mg.'s     calcium citrate    (vitamine shoppe brand)
1 tablet       centrum silver 
1 tablet       Cholestoff           (Nature Made)

  I've had no colds, flu's, broken bones, aches or pains other than my head. I do smoke cigarettes, not sure if this would have an impact on the regimens effectiveness or not.
  At this point, I should be well within the "green zone" as far a D3 levels. I ordered a test kit from ZRT labs 2 weeks ago but Im still waiting. I wanted to wait to post when I had more current results but I'm pretty desperate I guess for something else to try.

Wishing everyone the best!
Eric

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 12th, 2014 at 2:58pm
Hi Erk, sorry to hear that you are going through as bad patch.
I think Batch recommends 2400mg omega 3 fish oils, 500mg calcium and 3000iu vit A as well as the 400mg magnesium that you are taking. He also recommends 10mg zinc, 120mcg vit K2 and 1 mg boron to help the body absorb the D3, are these in the centrum silver?
This regimen is working for me, my life has been transformed since 3 weeks after I started the regimen.
Wishing that you get pain free very soon.
all the best
Thierry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on Jan 12th, 2014 at 4:37pm
Hey Thierry,

Thanks for the reply and well wishes. And yes the centrum silver has vit. A, K2, zinc, boron as well as an additional 200 mg.'s of cal. citrate. I am a little light on the fish oil but do try and eat salmon/fish a few times a week.

Best regards,

Eric

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 12th, 2014 at 8:08pm
Hey Eric,

It appears you're taking all the supplements in this regimen at the proper doses... 

Your 25(OH)D is very respectable, but it might not be high enough...  We've had a few CH'ers who didn't respond until their 25(OH)D reached 85 to 95 ng/mL.  You may need a higher maintenance dose of vitamin D3... like 15,000 IU/day.  That's what I take during the winter months and while on travel.

I've had close calls with my grand kids coming by with flu and colds over Christmas so as a precaution, I bumped my vitamin D3 up to 20,000 IU/day for 10 days then back to 15,000 IU/day. 

My wife has been taking the complete anti-inflammatory regimen with 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for the last three years...  Loves it.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dan S. on Jan 13th, 2014 at 8:18am
Sorry, so can someone tell me the recommended vitamins and doses for the anti-inflammatory suggestion?  I see multiple refeferences to vitamin K, Zinc and other things.  Then at times see just D3, Magnesium', and fish oil.  Batch it appears you might be able to clear this up?

I'm a long time sufferer (take Nortriptylene/Pamelor) and recently trying Verapamil as a preventative, but it takes a while to kick in to prevent.  So been trying the supps mentioned above and didn't know if I got this correctly.

Taking 10K or D3, 1,200 of Magnesium, and 1k of fish oil.

Pleased let me know.

Thank you!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2014 at 12:05pm
Hey Dan,

The "Go To" link with info on all the anti-inflammatory supplements, their doses, drug interactions and contraindications follows:

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The following table represents the latest list of anti-inflammatory regimen supplements and doses:

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I've found the following supplements shown by brand in the photo below are formulated with most of the supplements we need.  I buy them at Costco, but you should be able to find similar formulations at most Vitamin Shoppes, supermarkets, Wall-Mart or over the internet:

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Not shown in this photo is the Centrum Silver or similar formulations that provide vitamin A and vitamin K2.

I've also added a vitamin K supplement called Super K with Advanced K2 Complex made by the Life Extension Foundation (LEF).

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Although this vitamin K complex isn't essential in preventing CH, it is needed to handle the increased serum calcium made available by taking vitamin D3 at the doses we take. 

There are a growing number of studies finding the super K2 complex helps direct calcium away from soft tissues and arteries directing it instead to bones and teeth improving overall bone mineral density.

There are also a number of studies that have addressed the optimum ratio of calcium-magnesium supplements.  The general consensus is to keep these two supplements at a 1:1 ratio.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dan S. on Jan 13th, 2014 at 1:26pm
Thank you!  :)

1st PF night last night (for over 2 weeks!). Not sure if its the meds or supps or both, but PF!

Thank you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:44pm
Hey Batch,

So I recently started a cycle towards the end of December after being pain-free since June.  I had been taking a maintenance dose of:

10,000 IU  Vitamin D3 (Nature's Bounty)
2000 mg  Omega-3 fish oil (Kirkland)
400 mg Magnesium Citrate (Vitamin Shoppe)
500 mg Calcium Citrate (Vitamin Shoppe)
15 mg Zinc Oxide (Nature Made)
1 tablet Centrum Silver for Men

My clusters started ramping up a few days ago (especially the night-time hits) so I bumped up my D3 intake to 15000 IU/per day starting on 1/9 and I'm also taking 15 mg of Melatonin (Natrol) before I go to bed.

Just got my 25(OH)D results back for a test I took on 1/10 and it was 93.9 ng/mL. 

Any suggestions?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2014 at 5:44pm
Hey Slacker,

I've gone over your past posts on this regimen...  You're taking the right supplements at the proper doses and it appears you've good control over your 25(OH)D serum concentration.

Skip the calcium for a 3 to 4 days up to a week and keep all the other supplements the same.  We've had a handful of CH'ers, both episodic and chronic with 25(OH)D serum concentrations in the high end of the green zone who were still getting hit...  Dropping the calcium for a few days to a week helped most of them achieve a favorable response.

Two CH'ers with 25(OH)D serum concentrations comfortably in the green zone 60 to 110 ng/mL, responded in less than 24 hours after cutting their calcium intake.

We continue to learn more about the anti-inflammatory regimen thanks to posts from CH'ers like you.  That said, its' not clear why some CH'ers continue to get hit with excellent 25(OH)D serum concentrations.

My guess at this point, and it's just that, a guess... is there are a couple possibilities in play and one or both may be keeping you from a favorable response to this regimen...

The first is a low systemic pH (too much acid) which can play heck with just about every conventional CH medication including oxygen therapy making them less effective.

The second possibility involves the second phase of vitamin D3 metabolism where 25(OH)D is metabolized into 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal metabolite we think is responsible for triggering the genetic expression that down-regulates/suppresses the production of CGRP that is present during cluster headache attacks. 

Drinking a baking soda tonic four times a day, an hour after each meal and right before bed should help elevate a low systemic pH...  You make this tonic with a half teaspoon of Arm & Hammer baking soda in 4 ounces of water...  The directions are on the back of the box.

If you detect any improvement after starting the baking soda tonic... then a change in diet may help.  A GOMBS diet is one of the best ways to help alkalize the system. 

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Improving vitamin D3 metabolism to 1,25(OH)2D3 by cutting calcium for a few days to a week is still a shot in the dark...  The relationship between calcium and magnesium is a yin yang thing... They work well together if the mix/ratio is in balance.

As magnesium plays an essential role in nearly every enzymatic reaction in the body, upping its ratio with calcium for a few days may be all that's needed to improve vitamin D3 metabolism to 1,25(OH)2D3.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 13th, 2014 at 5:50pm
Thanks Batch.  So just to clarify, after 3 to 7 days of no calcium, should I definitely start taking the same amount of Calcium Citrate again (500 mg) no matter what the frequency and severity of my clusters are? 

Also, should I keep taking the 15,000 IU D3 or should I drop back down to 10,000 IU. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2014 at 6:44pm
Slacker,

Good question.  Add half the calcium back after a week, or the regular dose every other day.

What may be happening is your dietary calcium intake is high enough to cause an imbalance with magnesium when supplementing with both.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm
Gotcha.  Thank you sir and will do.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2014 at 6:51pm
Hey Dan,

Great news...  Confusing end of cycle with a favorable response to this regimen is common...  We tried to clarify this a bit by asking CH'ers, where during your normal cycle period did the response occur? 

If the favorable response occurred within the first half to two thirds of the normal cycle period, the odds are the response was not due to end of cycle.

Hope this helps.

Take care, keep it up, and please keep us posted.  It appears you're on the mend.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dave_73 on Jan 14th, 2014 at 5:28am
Hi all
I've not posted in many months but been watching in the background for support... I have a question to try and find comparators. I was first hit in May 13 and went through the period of multiple attacks, pain and the why me questions... After a mix of meds I have settled on Verapamil, O2 and sumatriptan injections.... The Verapamil I have to say reduced my attacks and pain to a manageable level... However I have never really shaken the constant pain albeit at a low level, the pain will increase when an attack presents itself but essentially it never goes. My condition presents itself like a stroke and I have facial paralysis on my left side and down my left arm giving me an almost lazy limb.. My left eye is watery and closed at its peak and at its lowest level I just have the tingling pain and numbness. I went to see my neuro who was concerned about the presence of the stroke like conditions and sent me for an urgent MRI.. All clear leaving me on the right meds but that's it... I'm using the vitamins and this has helped reduce my pain but not PF.
How long would an episodic bout last for.. I'm on month 8 and no let up :( ... Can I still fall into remission?
Friday I took another day off work as I felt really tender in my head and just as expected I was hit when least expected it..   0-10 in seconds and the wife on hand to grab the injection... It wiped me out ...(you know the routine) but needless to say it's not leaving me alone and my concern is am I chronic..
Any advise appreciated
Dave UK  :)



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jan 14th, 2014 at 6:00am
Hi Dave,
Your classified as chronic if you go into your 12th month
without a break.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Jan 14th, 2014 at 3:05pm

Dave_73 wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 5:28am:
How long would an episodic bout last for.. I'm on month 8 and no let up :( ... Can I still fall into remission?


The definition of chronic (START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE) is:


Quote:
Cluster headache attacks occurring in periods lasting 7 days to 1 year separated by pain-free periods lasting 1 month or longer.


So if you've gone 11 months and a day then you are technically chronic. But this is very much just a label, nothing changes other than the episodic label being replaced by a chronic label.

As to it being possible to fall into remission just before the chronic label comes in then my first cycle was an example of this with the CHs finally stopping about a week before the 11 month. This coincided with me starting on the vitamin D3, so it is quite possible that that made me go pain free, stopping me from going chronic.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 14th, 2014 at 5:55pm
Batch,

Forgot to ask.  Do you think I should drop back down to 10,000 IU D3 per day or stick with 15,000 IU for now?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 14th, 2014 at 6:04pm
Slacker,

Sorry... I should have addressed that question the first time around...  With your 25(OH)D at 93 ng/mL, you can drop back to a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.

That said, don't be hesitant to increase the vitamin D3 intake to 15,000 IU/day if you experience a sustained increase in the frequency and severity of your CH.

Hopefully, cutting back on the calcium for a week will get the calcium:magnesium ratio back in balance and this will help you to respond to the vitamin D3 with a significant reduction in CH.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 14th, 2014 at 6:10pm
Hey Batch,

Just replied to your PM but I'll reply here as well.  Since my hits have been pretty severe the past few days, staying at 15,000 IU shouldn't be a problem right?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 14th, 2014 at 7:12pm
Hey Slacker,

Agree...  Nothing wrong staying at 15,000 IU/day...  My wife has been on that dose for over 3 years...  Loves it!

I hope something works for you and soon...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 14th, 2014 at 7:29pm
Got it.  Thanks Batch and good talking to you on Skype.  Go Seahawks!

Title: New here. Excited about finding this new haven. D3
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 21st, 2014 at 7:11am
Hello everybody. I'm new here and I must say that it is good to know that I am not alone in this struggle. These CH attacks have taken a huge toll on me with work as well as the relationships with loved ones. I have started a new cycle about 1 month ago after 3 1/2 years of being pain free but this is the first time I have really looked everywhere for help because this cycle is very much worse than my other ones. I suffer from attacks daily at KIP level 9 to 10 with numerous stops to the ER and hoping not to wake up ever again. I am still in the process of finding the right medications that work for me as the one's tried have had no effect on me (Imitrex pills and numerous pain killers). I am really excited to read about this D3 system and I am going out to the store later today and buying the supplements to get started on it right away. I must send out much praise to Batch for helping so many people on here and for giving them hope in a hopeless situation like you have for me as well. This brings a bit of light back to me and I hope to feel improvements like other people have reported.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 21st, 2014 at 7:12am
Oh, and BTW. Nice to see a fellow valley dweller in Slacker. I see you are in Sherman Oaks, I am in Valley Village  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:22am
Hi, TheAndyT
Firstly a big welcome to the forum. You have arrived home  :)
Indeed Batch's help is precious and highly respected by many here.
I started on the D3 regimen last march and have been almost Pain free since, my attacks are now reduced to a few days long and had only a 9/10 once.
Stick with the regimen (all of its components at the stated doses) and see your life improve greatly. It can take a few weeks to kick in but please don't loose faith as the regimen is effective for 80% of us.
Batch is an invaluable source of knowledge and help and you can look forward to his reply to your post.
Wishing you all the best and success.
Take care
Thierry  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 21st, 2014 at 11:36pm
Thierry, thank you so much for the wonderful, warm welcome to the forum! I feel lucky to have found such a place. I am very happy to read about your personal success with the D3 regimen and I hope you continue with plenty more successes. I am happy to report that I have just begun with my own D3 regimen today and am looking forward to seeing how it turns out for me. Also I wanted to add that for the first time today I was able to abort out of a KIP/9 today after 15 mins with a cup of strong coffee and an ice pack. I don't know how healthy that is but I also bought myself some Red Bulls and will try those next on my next attack for abortive measures. Any tips or personal experiences on that would be greatly appreciated. As for now I keep my fingers crossed  :)
-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 21st, 2014 at 11:41pm

TheAndyT wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 7:12am:
Oh, and BTW. Nice to see a fellow valley dweller in Slacker. I see you are in Sherman Oaks, I am in Valley Village  :)


Hey, that's really close!  Sorry to hear about your current cycle.  I'm in the midst of one myself but I've been slowly getting it under control with the help of Batch and a few others on this board.  Definitely give it a try and stick with it for awhile.

Also, have you considered trying oxygen to abort?  It's more effective than Imitrex and way cheaper.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 21st, 2014 at 11:45pm
Just to give an update:

I stopped taking Calcium Citrate on 1/13 and added 500 mg of curcumin to my regimen on 1/17.  I also started drinking a baking soda tonic 4 times a day on 1/13.  Still getting a night time hit or two plus shadows throughout the day but they're not as severe and much easier to abort with oxygen. 

Batch,

Do you think I should add 250 mg of Calcium Citrate back into my regimen or should I still lay off it for a bit.  I think it's been 8 days since I've taken any.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 1:37am
Slacker....yes very close indeed. As to your question of the oxygen...I have not yet tried it as I do not know where or how to come by it or how the components actually work. I only have state Medi-Cal for coverage but it actually covered a 9-pill supply of 50mg Imitrex worth $450. They are gone now because it was really the only thing I had to reach for but they didn't take effect on me. Do you know of any doctors in the area that have worked for you personally?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 2:02am
Slacker,

Thanks for the update.  No sense courting trouble, so I'd stay off the calcium until you've got the beast completely under control then add it back slowly. 

Most of us get plenty of calcium from our dietary intake so the 500 mg/day calcium part of this regimen is more of an insurance against loss of bone mineral density while taking vitamin D3 at higher does.

Adding GOMBS to your diet can also help if the baking soda tonic appears to be working.  A handful a day of Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans - Berries and Seeds - Nuts can help alkalize your system by elevating your pH higher. 

I eat fresh berries with breakfast, more fruits with lunch and salads with lots of greens, onions, mushrooms and sunflower seeds with the evening meal.  I also keep a big jar of mixed nuts next to the laptop for snacks.

If you're still taking 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3, be sure to see your PCP for a lab test of your 25(OH)D after 30 days.

How about the Seahawks...  Seattle is still having seismic tremors...

Take care and please keep us posted.

Take care

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 2:26am

TheAndyT wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 1:37am:
Slacker....yes very close indeed. As to your question of the oxygen...I have not yet tried it as I do not know where or how to come by it or how the components actually work. I only have state Medi-Cal for coverage but it actually covered a 9-pill supply of 50mg Imitrex worth $450. They are gone now because it was really the only thing I had to reach for but they didn't take effect on me. Do you know of any doctors in the area that have worked for you personally?


I do not have a neuro in the area.  My original neuro was in Louisiana and he's the one who gave me a prescription for oxygen.  I get my M-tanks delivered by Apria for $25 a pop since I don't have insurance and use this welding regulator with this mask.

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There's a Harbor Freight on Lankershim in North Hollywood.  Some people use welding tanks which are a cheaper option than medical oxygen tanks and you wouldn't need a prescription but I wouldn't know where to look locally for that.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 2:29am
Batch,

Yea, I actually have a smoothie for breakfast which includes a handful of greens and berries so I think I should be good in that department.  I also snack on some lightly roasted/salted mixed nuts along with some trail mix throughout the day.

And go Seahawks!  As a Raider fan, I'm fully rooting for you guys to beat the Broncos.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 7:03am
Hi TheAndyT
I know you guys over the pond have issues with what your insurance will cover, but if you can afford them imitrex auto injections will work in a few minutes. The pills are not often recommended by us as they take too long to get into your system but the injections are a life saver.

I believe most of you can only get 2 a month which is rediculous, but if you continue to collect them when you are out of cycle you can stock pile a few and be ready for when the devil comes calling.
Maz.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 11:05am
Hello Everybody!
It's been a while but I thought I'd drop a line.  I have been PF for three years now, though that's not unusual (through my lifetime I've noticed I get the beast on average every four years). I've been on Batch's vitamin D regimen since my last cycle. The main thing I want to say is this: During the summer months I cycle a lot and I cut back on vit D since I'm in the sunlight for anywhere between 1-1/2 to 4 hours most days. During the past two years in the late fall when I am spending more time indoors I've noticed that I've been hit with shadows (increased muscular tension, a bang or zap up the side of my head that feels like one starting but then immediately stops) - like a new cycle is building all over again.  Since, as I've said, I get the beast on average every four years this is a bit disturbing. In each instance I've ramped up the vitamin D to 10-20,000 IU a day (along with the other vitamins Batch recommends).  Interestingly, and thankfully, after a couple days the shadows go away. During this Fall transition time I sometimes forget to take it for several days and I notice the shadows return; when I get back on the program they subside.
During the past three years I've checked in on the forum from time to time to catch up and have been please to see that many have been helped by the vitamin D etc. and I thought it about time to share my experience.
FWIW
-Glassman

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Dave_73 on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 12:22pm
Mike / Hoppy
As always a great source of information and you have kind of confirmed my frustrating fears...  >:(
I have just started an increased dose of the Verapamil which initially reduced my attacks but left me with low level KIP pain... Doc and neuro hopes the increased dose will replicate the interruptions. As I sit here in pain with a burning and drooped left side face and numb left arm it's hard to think that this will let up.... Keep up the great work
Dave
UK :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 4:00pm
Hey Gary,

Thanks for the update and great news...  Controlling the beast with the anti-inflammatory regimen the way you have for three years should serve as an incentive for a lot of CH'ers who have yet to try this regimen.

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 10:29pm
Slacker, thanks for the for the info and the link. I am definitely going to look deeper into it. I am going to talk to a doctor about getting me started on it and maybe some Imitrex shots or nasal cuz the pills sure didnt work. After reading up on the D3 a little more, I decided to start on the accelerated system because I'm pretty much indoors at all times with no direct sunlight. I will update as I feel changes. Today was actually the first time in my life getting hit 3 times pretty bad, but I am sure not giving up before giving it a hell of a shot.  8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 11:20pm
I also thought I would share that a very strong cup of dark coffee actually seems to help reduce the duration of my hits better than chugging down a can of Red Bull. I then apply a cold pack over the right side of my forehead and over my eye. It also seems to work if I apply the cold pack to the right side of my neck.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 11:43pm
SO. I saw a doctor today and spoke to him about getting some meds for my cluster headaches (verap,Imitrex and such). He had no clue as to what I was talking about and literally told me he was lost and had never heard of Verapamil, LOL. Atleast I was able to get him to refer me to a Neuro, so I got an appt. at the end of next week. Got hit once pretty bad today, but just once   8-)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 11:56pm

TheAndyT wrote on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 11:43pm:
SO. I saw a doctor today and spoke to him about getting some meds for my cluster headaches (verap,Imitrex and such). He had no clue as to what I was talking about and literally told me he was lost and had never heard of Verapamil, LOL. Atleast I was able to get him to refer me to a Neuro, so I got an appt. at the end of next week. Got hit once pretty bad today, but just once   8-)


Make sure you ask for a prescription for oxygen up to 15 LPM.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Jan 24th, 2014 at 12:15am

slacker032 wrote on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

TheAndyT wrote on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 11:43pm:
SO. I saw a doctor today and spoke to him about getting some meds for my cluster headaches (verap,Imitrex and such). He had no clue as to what I was talking about and literally told me he was lost and had never heard of Verapamil, LOL. Atleast I was able to get him to refer me to a Neuro, so I got an appt. at the end of next week. Got hit once pretty bad today, but just once   8-)


Make sure you ask for a prescription for oxygen up to 15 LPM.


Or higher, I can abort in 5 minutes using 25lpm but it takes about 12 when using 15lpm. This is pretty common where higher flow rates result in faster aborts.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 24th, 2014 at 12:59am
Hey Andy,

When you see your new neurologist, be sure to ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D and tell him you've started the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent your CH...

I wouldn't be surprised if your neurologist thinks you're speaking in tongues when you tell him how much vitamin D3 you're taking...  so be prepared for push back on taking this regimen...

With any luck, you might even start responding to this regimen before you see him...

Take care, check your PM inbox and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 24th, 2014 at 2:27am
Slacker, Mike and Batch... I will do, thanks for the advice. You shall be kept posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 24th, 2014 at 3:22am
Hey TheAndyT, its good to hear you have started on the accelerated D3 regimen.
When I went to see my neuro after having started the regimen, i printed some posts from Batch about the regimen and took them with me to show him, he was a bit sceptical at first but he has since told me that he has since visited this site and has learned a lot from it. I told him that he could give my contact details to his other CH patients if he thought the regimen could help them, amazingly he has done that and 2 of his CH patients have contacted me and are now on the regimen and responding well. He has also prescribed me some home oxygen and he has also prescribed it to his other patients. This site and Batch's knowledge and eagerness to share are far reaching with neuros expanding their own knowledge and more importantly learning that drugs don't have to be used for all ailments  :) :) :)
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 25th, 2014 at 9:10am
Thierry. I am happy to read how the help just goes from one person to another. I too will be printing out some pages from Batch and taking them with me to the neuro, with any luck it shall be a smooth process. 

Batch, I don't know if this is even possible or not but this idea came to me and I thought that maybe you would have some input on it. Since I do not have any O2 just yet, is there any kind of breathing pattern I can perform while in pain to help reduce it with just the room air around me?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Jan 25th, 2014 at 1:27pm
Hello Batch!  Just recap for you:
Started: mid Sept
Sept 25 - 86 nmol/L
Oct 11 - 170 "
Nov 8 - 373 "
Dec 18 -155nmol/L
PTH 3.1
Incorrect Ionized Cal 1.22
Correct Ionized Cal 1.21

Jan 17 -178nmol/L
I'm still Cluster free Batch :) I'm so very overwhelmed and thrilled, I can't thank you enough  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


I agree that our environment does play some kind of roll, somethings perhaps we can't control.  But what we can control is our diet, I do believe all of the processed foods out there, may aggravate our chemistry.  I try to follow the GROMBS and keep away from the processed stuff as much as possible. 
Just wanted to let you know, all is good and next Neuro appt is April 1st (hopefully less snow by then). Dr Stewart Reid already has a copy of your regemin, I'm looking forward to seeing him CH FREE!
Thanks Batch, your the greatest! 8-)

Slacker: wishing you well! pfw's to you my friend

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jan 25th, 2014 at 1:53pm
Thanks Sue!  Glad to hear that you're doing so well. 

Update for Batch:

So I stopped taking the Calcium Citrate on 1/13 and started 500 mg of curcumin on 1/17.  Happy to report that my hits have drastically been reduced for the past few days in both quantity and severity. 

I've only experienced one minor nighttime hit in each of the last three days.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 27th, 2014 at 2:25pm
Sue,

Thank you for the kind words, but we wouldn't have come this far learning the benefits of the anti-inflammatory regimen and its effectiveness in preventing CH without the help of CH'ers like you all over the world.  You've all provided valuable feedback on your response to this regimen along with the very important 25(OH)D status.

There's another potential benefit from going in for this lab test... involving your PCP or neurologist.  The more PCPs and neurologist who observe the benefits of the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing CH with at least 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 the better. 

Moreover, when PCP's and neurologists observe that vitamin D3 doses like this are effective in preventing CH and that these doses result in a stable 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L) without any indications of vitamin D3 intoxication, they're likely more inclined to suggest this treatment to other CH'ers.

Sooo...  Thank you, and thanks to all the other CH'ers who have provided feedback on their experiences with this regimen.  Thanks also to the CH'ers who have taken the time to answer the questions in the online survey of CH'ers using this regimen.

Take care and thanks again.

V/R, Batch   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 27th, 2014 at 3:09pm
Slacker,

Thanks for the feedback on the change in your CH patterns after dropping the calcium supplements from the anti-inflammatory regiem. 

I've gone over the survey data and 25% of the 110 CHe'rs who completed this survey were using verapamil when they started this regimen.  That percentage holds for the both the 19% who failed to respond to vitamin D3 and the 81% who did.

Accordingly, there's no clear evidence one way or the other on the possible impact of calcium supplements on verapamil's effectiveness.  That makes your comments very important for other CH'ers who start this regimen while taking verapamil and fail to respond.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Jan 27th, 2014 at 4:58pm
Hi Batch or others!  Just a quick word, can someone tell me were to locate the survey for CHer's trying the Vit D regimen, I don't think I've completed it as yet. 
Thank you!
Sue
pfw's :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jan 27th, 2014 at 5:27pm
Hi Sue,
The link is to your left on this page.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Jan 27th, 2014 at 5:29pm
Thanks Hoppy!  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 27th, 2014 at 7:15pm
Hey Sue,

Here's the link to the survey of CH'ers who have taken the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3 for a month or longer:

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You can also find it in the following link:

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I just bumped it to the top of the stack.

We still have 65 CH'ers who started this survey but never completed it... 

Not surprisingly, the majority of them are episodic so it's reasonable to assume their CH episodic cycle ended and they went on with their lives. 

The good news is their surveys are still open and they can complete them at any time just by clicking on the link above.

Take care

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:19am
yes im one of those that haven't done the survey yet.
well, ive had a shocker of a week,  been on regime for 6 months, been 4 1/2 months of relative pain free.
was getting groups of shadows, nothing over kip 2 and aborted with red bull, only 1 imigran in that time, out of fear as it was 4 shadows in one night.  have played with the fish oil and magnesium levels over that time to see if that fixed the shadows, as well as baking soda and the nuts and berries and mushrooms.
1 week ago, I got a kip 4-5, aborted with red bull and cold pack, then a couple a day since then all kip 5 ish
luckily 3 days ago I went for my blood test which I get the results in 2 days with my doctor.
ive consistently taken 180 mg verapamil and was looking at weaning off only last week, but reluctant while shadows are around and now the ones abit more than shadows. this is my danger time of the year, I know this because this time last year was HELL
the funny thing is, ive been taking 10,000-15,000 vit d3 all this time, but over the last week, when I titrate up to 20,000 dose of d3, the next day I don't get the kip 5 hits.
because I haven't had a test for nearly 4 months ( ive been slack ) I haven't just continued with the 20,000 vit d3 dose because I was worried where my levels were.
I was originally 41 nmol and after the accelerated regime course I got up to 193 nmol, but that was 4 odd months ago.   im hoping that when I get the results they will show that my levels had dropped under the green zone and this will be a good indication for others or for me that the regime was definitely working, and a good test will be to increase my intake and I should get to a p/f state again.
you cant believe how nervous I am waiting till Thursday and hoping for a low d3 count,  if its not a low count, then I guess i'll have to see whats changed or what else I can do.
kip5 is still a hell of a lot better than what I had, but, it still damn uncomfortable !
i'll post up my result ( as another shadow makes an appearance as I type !!!!!!)
cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 28th, 2014 at 2:27am
Hey Colin,

Thanks for the update and don't worry about the survey until you've tuned the regimen and have a good handle on the beast.  You also bring up an important point...  Tuning the vitamin D3 intake in this regimen may be needed during the winter months.

I know what you're going through and have also titrated up to 20,000 IU/day for the last two months... I checked my logs and I did the same thing last year...

I suspect the low sun angle in Winter combined with repeated exposure to grand kids with colds and flu over the last couple months have taken their toll on my 25(OH)D reserves...

I'm a chronic type so did a burn-down test of my 25(OH)D reserves around Thanksgiving for the first two years after starting this regimen taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3. 

My 25(OH)D serum concentration is usually around 82 ng/mL at that point...  7 to 8 days without vitamin D3 and the beast comes a calling... I'm glad I didn't do a burn-down test this year...

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jan 28th, 2014 at 5:12am
thanks for your reply batch,
           it will be interesting to see what my levels are when I see the doc on Thursday, It was great timing to take the test, just as the beast started to rear its head, i'll let you know what the result are.
I understand what you mean about winter months depleting vit d levels,  funny thing is though that here in Melbourne Australia, we are right in the middle of summer and I work outside and am fair skinned and getting a lot of sun at the moment.  but on the other hand, pryor to me starting the regime, I tested 40 nmol, so I guess I cant guarantee I can actually absorb it, or enough of it just relying on the sun alone.  a few weeks back I did have a separate issue, which I had to take a week of anti biotics, maybe that effected things, so hopefully questions will be answered at the doc's Thursday........
cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 28th, 2014 at 9:38pm
An update for you guys... Friday was the last time I had an actual BAD hit. Saturday was virtually PF. Since then, the shadows have been constant throughout most of the day while the hits have been 7 KIP or lower which is such a big difference to me because at that level I can deal with them. They have also been reduced in the time they last to 2 hours tops. I work in a high paced, stressful environment that deals a lot of cardio and heat, but I can honestly say that for the past 2 days I have not been fearful of the beast knocking me on my butt at work. Also, important to note; I have taken no meds to deal with the beast at all. Only vitamins. Still keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for better days  :)

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 29th, 2014 at 3:00am
Hi, i just realised i haven't completed the survey. I'll be doing it today or tomorrow. Thanks for reminder Batch.
:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:21am
Hey Andy,

Great news...  The odds are in your favor you'll continue the PF string as long as you stay on this regimen.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:12am
Hey Andy, that's great news, and it should get even better. Delighted that you are also off the drugs and not experiencing their sometimes nasty side effects.  :)
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:24am
survey completed  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:38am
me too :) 
Have a good day all! pfw's!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 29th, 2014 at 11:59pm
Thierry, Sue,

Thanks to the both of you for completing the survey.  There's strength in numbers when it comes to survey's like this on orphan disorders. 

The more completed surveys, one way or the other by the end of March, with respect to efficacy of this regimen, the better.   

I'll be making a poster presentation of the survey results at the American Academy of Neurology 2014 Annual Meeting in late April in Philadelphia. 

The additional survey entries will strengthen the empirical evidence needed to convince neurologists and headache specialists to give the anti-inflammatory regimen a try with their cluster headache patients.

Thanks again.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jan 30th, 2014 at 1:18am
hi batch,   thankyou for the survey and 02 info.
         I presented it to my doctor and she tucked it in her bag and said I want to take my time and read it !
  well results.   cholestriol,  I was down 3 points to 6.1, but my bad was up and my good was down !!  she told me to double up on fish oil, which I have been and test again in 3 months.
the important one,   I was 200 nmol   ( buga)
I was 194 nmol 4 months ago and ive consistently averaged 15,000 vit per day.
ive lifted my dosage up to 20,000 for the previous 3 days, after my blood test,  but im feeling like I should take a loading of 50,000 and continue 20,000 for another 3 or 4 days, go max dose on my magnesium citrate, leave out the calcium citrate,  I know this will elevate my d levels, but how much batch would you say a week of 20 plus the 50 loading would lift it up ?  maybe I need to try a higher level to see if it busts this cycle rearing its head at the moment ? worth a try ?  oh, my calcium count was 2.3.
the doctor actually said to me, I don't have an answer on adjusting the regime to help you, but  QUOTE  " this guy peter would be the one to ask on the elevating my level higher to see what happens"    hows that batch   lol
she was happy with my calcium score, and was amazed that I was taking on average 15,000 vit d aday  for 4 months and only risen by 6 nmol !!   
she's a believer  !!
so im going to titrate up the 50,000 tonight batch, as this post will arrive to u after ive had dinner etc, and stay on 20,000 for another 3 or 4 days, and see what happens.
would love your opinion on it though  ??
cheers batch
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:50am
Well my first neuro appt. didn't go all too well for me. He didn't want to take the time to hear about the D3 regimen or the O2. He just decided to prescribe me a higher dose of 100mg Imitrex and some preventative called Propranolol. I was unable to obtain the meds because they are having trouble with my crappy state insurance, so I am almost certain I will be without meds 'till atleast Monday. I wasn't able to do the 25 (OH) test because the insurance won't cover. I will try to gather up some money to get my own later. It sucks because this is the only neuro I can see around my area that takes my insurance. Otherwise it's $300 for a consultation with another one. I have a second appt. in one month.

On a brighter note.... today was my second day being totally pain free!! It is a beautiful thing! I am starting to believe that this D3 regimen might actually be kicking in after all  :) For this reason, I am not worried about not having any meds handy, because I simply have no reason to use them lately. Thanks everyone for you continued support and special thanks to Batch for the valuable info and for always being there. I'll be checking in.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:29am

TheAndyT wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:50am:
Well my first neuro appt. didn't go all too well for me. He didn't want to take the time to hear about the D3 regimen or the O2. He just decided to prescribe me a higher dose of 100mg Imitrex and some preventative called Propranolol. I was unable to obtain the meds because they are having trouble with my crappy state insurance, so I am almost certain I will be without meds 'till atleast Monday. I wasn't able to do the 25 (OH) test because the insurance won't cover. I will try to gather up some money to get my own later. It sucks because this is the only neuro I can see around my area that takes my insurance. Otherwise it's $300 for a consultation with another one. I have a second appt. in one month.

On a brighter note.... today was my second day being totally pain free!! It is a beautiful thing! I am starting to believe that this D3 regimen might actually be kicking in after all  :) For this reason, I am not worried about not having any meds handy, because I simply have no reason to use them lately. Thanks everyone for you continued support and special thanks to Batch for the valuable info and for always being there. I'll be checking in.

-Andy


Andy,

You can get a 25(OH)D test done via Direct Labs for $53 with the coupon code, DISCOUNT10.

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The lab where they did my blood work is on Vanowen and Sepulveda but there might be one even closer to you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 1st, 2014 at 4:44am
Slacker. Thanks a lot for the link. I am on Vanowen and Whitsett, so that lab is the closest to me. I will try to gather some money towards the end of the month to order a test. How exactly does this work? Do I draw my own blood and take it to the lab or do they do it when I go? Hope you are feeling much better!

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 1st, 2014 at 4:46am

TheAndyT wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 4:44am:
Slacker. Thanks a lot for the link. I am on Vanowen and Whitsett, so that lab is the closest to me. I will try to put gather some money towards the end of the month to order a test. How exactly does this work? Do I draw my own blood and take it to the lab or do they do it when I go? Hope you are feeling much better!

-Andy


No, they actually draw your blood there and then email you a few days later when your results are ready on their website.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 1st, 2014 at 8:14am
well,
          as per last post, nmol 200, and shadows all afternoon, with 2-3 kip 5-6 hit every nite.
have done 6 days of 450mg magnesium, 3000, fish oil no calcium, 20,000 vit d daily with a 50,000 one of.
  last nite, slept thru p/f for the first time in a week and a half, and not even a hint of a shadow today !!!!
will take another 20,000 vit d tomorrow nite and if im still p/f I will go back to my normal regime maintenance of 10,000 vit d.
seems as though mu p/f level is what ever it elevated me to by increasing the vit d for a week, as above.
  cautiously,  YAHOO
if I remain pain free, i'll test again in 4-5 weeks and hopefully that is my target or optimum  level to be at.
was really starting to feel like ground hog day, January being my worst ever time, this time last year.......
can it be this simple ???    :-/
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:25am
can it be this simple ???   

My wife and I keep asking this question. After over 30 years of watching me suffer these stupid things, I'm over 3.5 years pain free.......with just these stupid vitamins!!! ;D I'm still just in awe.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Feb 1st, 2014 at 8:27pm

TheAndyT wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:50am:
Well my first neuro appt. didn't go all too well for me. He didn't want to take the time to hear about the D3 regimen or the O2. He just decided to prescribe me a higher dose of 100mg Imitrex and some preventative called Propranolol.


Since 100mg Imitrex sounds like it is the pill form of imitrex and propanolol is one of the standard migraine preventives (it works great for my migraines), it sounds as if he is just treating you for migraines and not CH. This probably points to the neuro not having the skills or experience to treat CH properly.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 4th, 2014 at 4:45am
Batch, quick question... when buying the 1200mg fish oil, is there a difference or advantage between the 768mg active omega-3 and the 360mg active omega-3?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 4th, 2014 at 6:22am
Hey Andy,

Good question.  The anti-inflammatory regimen calls for a minimum of 360 mg/day eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and 240 mg/day docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) for a total of 600 mg/day of Omega-3 Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs).

There are other Omega-3 fatty acids, but EPA and DHA are the two essential fatty acids that experts claim are most beneficial.

Some nutrient producers also list  "other Omega-3 fish oils" on the label in addition to the EPA and DHA.

The important point is check the "Serving Size" on the back label that lists all the ingredients that are totaled by serving...  That means you may need to take one, two or three liquid softgel capsules to get the total Omega-3 listed on the front label.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 4th, 2014 at 9:33pm
Thank you for clearing that up for me, Batch. I can now shop for my supplements with confidence. Today would have been my fifth PF day. Oddly enough I got an attack on the first day of taking my preventive med.  I think im going to hold off on that med for now.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 4th, 2014 at 10:28pm
Hi TheAndyT, here is a link to a 5 months supply of fish oil for $22.69. It is the omega 3 fish oil Batch has on his regimen (2 softgels/day)

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:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 4th, 2014 at 11:20pm
Thierry, thank you so much. Great deal  ;D

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CHMatt on Feb 5th, 2014 at 10:42am
Amazon has the same thing for $9.37.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 5th, 2014 at 4:10pm
Wow that is cheap, unfortunately the shipping prices to Ireland are prohibitive. the prices on amazon.co.uk are way higher. It looks like i'll have to stick with Iherb, it's still a lot cheaper than buying here in Ireland. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CHMatt on Feb 5th, 2014 at 4:40pm
Sorry - wasn't paying attention to the details..  However, you should consider taking a trip across the pond and stocking up on our super cheap dietary supplements some time.  ;) It's why we have the immigration problems we have... ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on Feb 6th, 2014 at 5:30pm
hello all,

I thought I'd chime in on my progress with this regimen.
To recap, I went into cycle on Nov.5., which is unusual, typically its Jan. or Feb. starts for me. I had complete blood work done on Nov.8. My 25(oh)D was 74 ng/ml. No other problems found except high trigylecirides.
  I decided to follow the d3 load dose protocols and did so for one month. I still continued to get hit 1-3 times a night. They were more easy to abort with ice, energy drink and/or o2 than in previous cycles. Which I attribute to a more alkalizing diet I've been following pretty close. I only used trex a couple times early on in the cycle before I got the o2. Still the disruption of sleep was really getting old.
  By the end of Jan. the hits were starting to diminish in intensity, but I wanted to be completly pf. So on jan. 24 I slacked off of the calcium for the a few days to see what would happen. The wake up hits stopped a few days later. Subjectively speaking, its hard to say if this helped or it just stopped on its own. I took a 25(oh)d test also on Jan.24. Level was 123 ng/ml.
  I intend to stick with regimen for sure. I just hope to figure out what is keeping me from being pf on it????
Thats my 2 cents.

Best of luck!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CHMatt on Feb 6th, 2014 at 7:17pm
Although I don't feel knowledgeable enough to suggest stopping the calcium to other people, not knowing what the long-term results would be with this regimen, my story was similar - on the D3 regimen but it wasn't working (actually seemed to be making things worse), but as soon as I discontinued the calcium supplements the headaches went away.  I'm still on verapamil, amitriptyline, and cyproheptadine, but we're tapering my amitriptyline and cyproheptadine (slooooowly, because I've been on those three for 15 years now).   I feel confident that for me the calcium supplement was interfering with the verapamil efficacy. Twice since being pain-free I've added back the calcium supplement and both times the headaches returned within 24 hours.  The first time I took 1 citracel, the second time only 1/2 citracel, and both times I timed it as carefully as possible to avoid interactions with the verapamil.

I'm sure Batch can speak to the advisability of being on the regimen minus the calcium better than I'm able to, but that's my $.02 worth (where the hell did they put the cents sign on todays keyboards, dammit!?!?! LOL).

Matt

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2014 at 12:07am
Erk, Matt,

Thank the both of you for your feedback on the calcium supplement.  I've gone over data from the online survey and posts here at CH.com.   It appears there's a clear correlation between stopping the calcium supplements and a cessation of CH attacks. 

There's also a companion correlation as some of these same CH'ers reported an increase in the frequency of their CH after starting the complete regimen.

That said, the total of CH'ers who either reported an up-tic in the frequency of their CH after starting this regimen or who have reported a cessation of their CH after stopping the calcium supplement appears under 10% of the total number of CH'ers taking this regimen.

The 500 mg/day calcium part of this regimen is essentially an insurance policy against loss of bone mineral density.  Accordingly, if CH'ers are eating a healthy diet, they're likely taking in adequate calcium from dietary sources, i.e., cheese,  other dairy products and dark leafy greens like spinach and kale... so skipping the calcium supplement is likely quite safe...

Given the correlations above, I'll be making some notations regarding the calcium supplements in the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Thanks again...  As I've said many times, we're out in front of the neurology community in general on preventing cluster headaches with this regimen.  We're also still learning how to make this regimen even more effective.  That makes comments like yours valuable to other CH'ers just starting this regimen or having problems making it work.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 7th, 2014 at 11:37pm
a little update,   still p/f after a week,  since I titrated up with 20,000 vitd a day and a one of 50,000 dose
back to 15,000 a day with 300mg magnesium 3000mg fish oil, no calcium and a multi vit.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 7th, 2014 at 11:43pm
cont...  hit the wrong button    LOL
im picking that since my nmol level was 200  before I titrated up for a week, my levels from what I can work out might be around 230 nmol,  guessing ofcourse,  but its definitely worked.  pryor I was steadily building with heavy shadows, and 2-3 kip 6 headaches generally evening and middle of the night,   this is how my last cycle started and eventually ramped up to full blown kip 10's.
so back on track and breathing a sigh of relief !!
and lovin this regime
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2014 at 3:31am
Hey Colin,

Thanks for the timely update...  I'm beginning to think the cessation of your CH is more due to dropping the calcium supplement rather than the increased intake of vitamin D3.  Based on data provided by CH'ers to date, dropping the calcium supplement appears to be responsible for a cessation of their CH symptoms.

A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 200 nmol/L, (80 ng/mL), should be sufficient to prevent CH. To me, that means stopping the calcium supplements is more of a contributing factor in the cessation of your CH attacks than increasing the serum concentration of your 25(OH)D.

I'm not sure why this is happening, but we've had several CH'ers report similar results with a cessation of their CH after stopping the calcium supplement.

If I were to hazard a guess it would be the calcium supplements are consuming more of the active vitamin D3 metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3, as part of calcium homeostasis, leaving an insufficient concentration to prevent CH.  I say this as there's no clear correlation between CH'ers taking verapamil and CH'ers who are not taking it.

In addition, the numbers are not statistically significant as yet, but it appears the possibler drop in verapamil effectiveness due to the calcium supplements is not a factor.

I'm in the process of revising the anti-inflammatory regimen to lower the calcium intake to a range between 220 mg/day and 500 mg/day as well as making it optional.  In other words, stop taking it, if there's an increase in CH frequency after starting this regimen or there's no favorable response after a week to 10 days.

Thanks again for the update.  Information like this can only help improve the dosing strategy of this regimen and make it more effective.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 8th, 2014 at 7:37am
Just to let you know I am now 14 months PF since starting this regimen. On occasions where I have felt the beast was lurking I just take more D3 for a couple of days and it gets rid of it. Last blood test I had I was running at just over 200 n/mol.

I also have a question about the calcium supplement. I have just started reading ths book about Vitamin D3 START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE
It's well worth a look at, the one thing the author mentions early on is calcium. Basically that too much of it in the blood can be dangerous and D3 itself affects the levels in the body. He suggests taking Vitamin K2 in a certain form that removes the calcium from the bloodstream and into the bones/tissues where we need it.

Any thoughts on this?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2014 at 2:29pm
Hey Rob,

Thanks for the update...  The info regarding taking calcium and vitamin K2 while taking vitamin D3 at the doses we take is spot on...  but I hesitate to call it dangerous...  Vitamin D is one of, if not the, safest nutrients we can take.

That said, vitamin D3 does increase calcium kinetics, (primarily an increased absorption of calcium from the gut). 

As calcium homeostasis maintains the concentration of serum calcium in a very narrow reference range, the increased calcium mobility results in either an increase in bone mineral density (BMD) or the kidneys filter out any excess calcium and it's pumped over the side in urine...

The 500 mg/day calcium supplement part of this regimen is primarily there as insurance against loss of BMD in the event CH'ers are not getting enough through calcium through dietary sources.  With insufficient calcium from dietary sources, vitamin D3 would mobilize more calcium from the bones resulting in an eventual loss of BMD.

As most of us have an adequate calcium from dietary sources, skipping the calcium supplement part of this regimen shouldn't increase the risk of loss of BMD.

We also added vitamin K2 to this regimen about a year ago to compensate for the increased calcium kinetics.  The added side effect of taking vitamin K2 is improved cardiovascular health as vitamin K2 directs calcium away from soft tissues and arteries sending it instead to the bones...

The interesting result of eliminating calcium from this regimen has been an increase in its effectiveness for CH'ers who have been taking this regimen for more than a few weeks without positive results.  This has also helped CH'ers who experienced an up-tic in the frequency of their CH after starting this regimen.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I'm in the process of revising the dosing instructions for calcium, lowering it to a range of 220 to 500 mg/day and making it optional should the CH'er experience an up-tick in CH frequency, or not respond to the complete regimen after a week to 10 days.

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 8th, 2014 at 9:22pm
thanks batch,  that's a very interesting read.
before they returned I had reduced my calcium to 200mg and my magnesium to 225mg, so I dropped the calcium lifted the magnesium to 450mg and doubled the fishoil to 3000mg.
hard call then I suppose, with dropping the calcium and titrating for a week on the vit d was done at the same time.
im currently, as mentioned p/f and my intake is 15,000 vitd 300mg magnesium, 200mg calcium and 3000mg fish oil with the multi vit centrum plus.
i'll see how I track over the next month on those levels, and keep an eye on your updates on the regime.
  although im on a small dose of verapamil 180mg daily, gee i'de love to go off them and be stand alone on the regime !  ive been on verapamil for a year now, originally 270mg, then reduced to 240 and now 180mg, I suppose I was just waiting for a good few months p/f even of shadows then i'de wean completely off them.   
I go away for 2 week holiday mid march, so If p/f up until then, i'll have my holiday then try and go off them and go stand alone on the regime..
thanks for your comments batch, I always watch with interest on anyones experiences on the regime and your responses.
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:28pm
Colin,

You're on the right track... Keep it up and there should be no problem remaining pain free.  Have a great trip... 

I'll be heading South... and East to Key West, Florida in March so I may be off the net for a week.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 8th, 2014 at 11:41pm
just as a foot not batch,  I presumed that k2 was in my multi vitamin ! which I was wrong, only k1 which can be scourced thru green vegatables etc but not k2
I couldn't find your thread on when you introduced it, so I could look at what strength to take
so I did a google search and found some interesting literature on not only vit k2 but d3, magnesium and calcium.  they were saying exactly what you said, that k2 directs where the calcium goes to, ie bones and teeth.
but one English doctor was discussing high vit d3 intakes, which she said this along with calcium supplements can cause calcium deposits to occur in places that could actually cause harm, ie kidney stones or worse arteries. she said it was a real concern and the only way to prevent this is to take vit k2. infact she went on to say that taking hi vit d3, combination with magnesium and calcium supplements without taking vit k2 could be detrimental. with vit d sucking calcium into the stomack where it can disperse to un wanted areas, the addition of vit k2 acts as a policeman, directing calcium to where its needed and keeping the arteries free from build up.   one of her interesting comments was that vit d3 has a direct influence or connection to over 300 genes !.
dosage was mentioned,  saying that if you were taking 8000iu of vit d3, that a daily dose suggested of vit k2 of between 180-250 mg  but commented that daily requirements could actually be a lot more.  she said that it is found in our stomach wall but were largely inactive, but by supplementing it actually activates the dormant k2 in our stomach and starts doing its job, there seems to be no evidence of intoxication so looks really safe.
I sure haven't been taking any k2 supplements with the regime, so ive promptly ordered some on line,   I cant find what doage you recommended batch or whether they are the same as what the above doctor was reccommening,  but gee,  certainly does sound like an important one to take !!!
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 9th, 2014 at 12:39pm
Colin,

You've obviously been reading Dr. Mecola and excerpts from Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book titled: "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox: How a Little Known Vitamin Could Save Your Life."

I've read many of the same articles on vitamin K2... as well as the results of several studies on vitamin K2 with respect to building bone mineral density and improving cardiovascular health.  Fascinating to say the least.

For the benefit of others who haven't read through this material, you can find an excellent review of compiled information on vitamin K1 and K2 (MK-4 & MK-7) at the following VitaminDWiki page:

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In general, Vitamin K1 promotes clotting or Koagulationsvitamin for which it was named...

The roles and importance of vitamin K2 have only been the topic of relatively recent research.  For example, according to clinicaltrials.gov, there have been 29 RCTs since 2005, 19 RCTs since 2010 and six in the last year involving vitamin K2 (Menaquinones)

I've been taking a vitamin K supplement called Super K with Advanced K2 Complex made by the Life Extension Foundation (LEF).

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Each liquid softgel contains 1000 mcg vitamin K1 and the vitamin K2 complex (1000 mcg MK-4 and 200 mcg MK-7).  This dose is consistent with the recommended vitamin K2 dose of 100 mcg for every 1000 IU of vitamin D3. 

It's very important to consult with your PCP if you're taking coumadin (warfarin) or other blood thinners before taking vitamin K1 or vitamin K2.

Take care and thanks again for posting the info on vitamin K2.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 9th, 2014 at 3:13pm
Hi Batch, i've been reading the last couple of posts about K2 and it makes for interesting reading.
For the last few months I've been getting some pains at my lower back (around where the kidneys are), i did wonder if it had anything to do with the regimen but brushed off that idea.
After reading Blacklab and your posts, i now think that it could be because of a calcium deposit in my kidneys. below is the link to the Vit K2 I've been taking since i have started on the regimen.

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I have been taking 1 capsule/day which is only 120mcg/day which according to what you wrote is very insufficient. As per your regimen I take 10000iu D3 (+ weekly loading dose) and 400mg calcium citrate/day as well as the rest of the supplements.
What do you think?
Again thank you for your precious inputs
:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 9th, 2014 at 3:16pm
wow Life extension super K isn't cheap, $22.50 on iherb.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 9th, 2014 at 4:23pm
All this K2 stuff is verrry interesting. I decided to get myself a bottle of that Life Extension Super K to add to the regimen.

Thierry, I think iherb was the cheapest I found after taking into account shipping etc...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by erk on Feb 9th, 2014 at 8:06pm
  I agree this K2 stuff is a fascinating subject and a possible correlation for my struggles has re-entered my mind. Up until approx. Oct. I had been taking a separate K2 (mk-7) 90 mcg dose . After that, I only had the 30 mcg "vitamin K" in the Centrum Silver, as I wanted to cut down on the number of tablets for simplicity.
  When I went into cycle again in Nov., First thought I had was about this change, but I failed to act upon or mention in any of my posts.
  Revising my original guess, perhaps it wouldn't have necessary to drop  the calcium had I have been taking suffient doses of K2???

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 9th, 2014 at 10:37pm
Hey Thierry,

Thanks for the update.  For starters, I'd drop the calcium supplement completely for a few weeks.  If the lower back pains subside, we've another datum on this regimen.  It's also likely the vitamin K2 you're taking with 120 mcg MK-7, will work with the vitamin D3 to better utilize the calcium you're getting from dietary sources.

Second, If you're still pain free, I think you can drop the loading dose.  10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is an adequate maintenance dose for most CHe'rs... that said, after looking over your posts, 15,000 IU/day may be a better maintenance dose for you.  Another 25(OH)D lab test will say for sure.

Yes... the Super K with advanced K2 from LEF is a little pricey...  With shipping to Ireland that should work out to around 37 cents USD/day... 

There are other sources of vitamin K2.  For example, Nature's Life Vitamin K-2 Menatetrenone, (MK-4) -- 5000 mcg - 60 Tablets.  See:

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The cost is $15 USD plus $10 USD to ship via DHL Global mail to Ireland.  If you take one every 4 days, that works out to a little over 10 cents a day.  The kicker here may be the half-live of MK-4.

The problem we face with vitamin K2 (MK-4 and MK-7) is there have been very few studies done with study participants also taking vitamin D3...  like a total of 2 and one of them is still recruiting...

Moreover, I'm quite sure neither of the protocols in these two studies have participants taking vitamin D3 at the doses we're taking to prevent CH...

From the available online literature, it's clear we need both vitamin D3 and vitamin K2.  We already know how much vitamin D3 we need to control cluster headache...

The task now is determine how much vitamin K2, more specifically, how much MK-4 and MK-7 we need at the doses of vitamin D3 we take.  We also need to know which of these two menaquinones is more important or do we require both to improve and maintain cardiovascular and BMD health?

At this point it appears the scientists at LEF have one of the better explanations on this topic... See:

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They also appear to have a reasonable approach on how much vitamin K1 and K2 complex to take with their Super K with advanced K2 complex...

Soooo... after all that, the amount of vitamin K2 you're taking is likely adequate and clearly better than not taking any at all...

Take care and thanks again for the update, questions and comments.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 10th, 2014 at 12:52am
h batch,  yes that's what I was reading.
  and a very interesting read at that !
it is a bit pricey the k2, I found the k2 mk-7 and 90 capsules was aus $ 26.00 plus $ 7.50 delivery.  i'll look for a better deal as I digest these.
she did speak about a definite corolation to deposits in arteries from those taking high levels of vit d3, and one such study where a group were on 8000iu of d3.  she was extremely pro vit d3 with also taking the calcium and magnesium.  there was no mention of fish oil.  the vit k found in centrum is only the k1 variety, the k2 variety can also be had from eating meats, dark chicken or liver   yuk on the last one  LOL
the other scource was a type of Japanese food, I forget what it exactly was, but the k2 that ive ordered is of that extract.
sort of looks as though it could  very well be key element for the regime and batch was spot on including it.  whether or not it makes a difference with regards to excess calcium hovering in the gut, maybe effecting our verapamil a little bit ?  who knows, but the k2 definitely redirects it to where it needs to go and away from our organs and arteries where it can possably cause issues.
hey, it may add to the amount off pills we have to take in a day, especially when you go on holiday, packing up your daily doses LOL   but i'll take that any day over getting a calling card from our unwanted friend !!
i'll be taking 2 k2 100 mcg tablets daily with my regime.
  great topic !
cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 10th, 2014 at 2:45am
Hey Batch,
thank you for your interesting reply.
I'll lay off the calcium for a while and see if the lower back pain lessens or disappears all together, it's been quite bad lately, i find myself having to walk a bit bent over and that's then affecting some back muscles and they, in turn, give me pain.
I'll be getting myself some LEF Super K with my next order at Iberb, after all it's worth the few cents and with a very cheap shipping cost to Ireland ($4 up to 4lbs weight), it won't add too much to the cost of the product when combined with the other items i order + i would be ordering K2 anyway -albeit not the right one for the regimen-.
When i think about it, the cost is not too bad if i take into account the fact that i already spend $12 on a vit k2 that is not appropriate. I'll be spending $10 more for 2 months to get the right amount and the right combination of K2  :)
All the best to you and yours and to all here.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 11th, 2014 at 7:02pm
As I only check in here now and again, a side effect of being PF I'm afraid, every time I do the regimen goal posts have moved. I have ploughed through a lot of this thread but can't seem to find the latest definitive regimen ingredients.

I currently take Omega 3, D3 and have just added the Super K to the mix. I was taking the Kirkland Calcium tabs but have just laid off those for the time being having scared myself reading about vein calcification as I was unaware of the need for K2.

So, could someone please list the 'essential' regimen ingredients. I say essential as just the D3, Omega 3 and Calcium have worked for me so the only concerns I have are inadvertently creating deficiencies/problems etc, hence me dropping the calcium and getting some K2.

EDIT: Ok, apologies, I just found Batch's Wiki on this:START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE where it gives the full list.
What I want to know is, are all the items necessary, not so much to stop the CH as I seem to manage that just with D3 and Omega3, but to balance each other out?
I now intend to take D3, Omega3, Calcium Magnesium and K2. Is that ok or do I really need the other stuff?
The main reason I ask is that I travel a lot and it will be like taking a pharmacy on the road, so the less the better!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Feb 12th, 2014 at 6:27pm
Hi Chuffy,
Batch recommends you take 1/day Centrum Silver to get the
other cofactors.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 13th, 2014 at 4:56am
Ok, thanks for the info Hoppy.

Now for the next question, the 'Adult 50+' or the 'Men 50+' version?


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 13th, 2014 at 6:15am
Hey Chuffy, Batch himself tales "Kirkland Mature Multi", It can be got amazon.co.uk. check this thread on here called "Noob on D3", link below. batch has a photo of what he takes.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 13th, 2014 at 6:32am
Thanks Thierry.
Does Batch no longer take a separate Calcium supplement then?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 13th, 2014 at 7:35am
I guess so Chuffy, i asked him a question about that on the thread i linked above. Let's see what he says.
;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 13th, 2014 at 3:43pm
Hey Chuffy,

Thanks for the update...  Good questions and astute observations...

I'll be updating the anti-inflammatory regimen list of supplements and suggested dosing and will post it here at CH.com in the thread at the following link:

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I'll also update it at VitaminDWiki at:

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The only substantive changes will be listing the calcium supplement intake in a range between 220 and 500 mg/day with a caveat to limit or eliminate the calcium supplement temporarily while taking verapamil or if there's an up-tic in CH frequency after starting the complete regimen.

I posted the results of the survey of 110 CH'ers using the anti-inflammatory regimen at VitaminDWiki based on calls from physicians, who like you, had difficulty sorting through the 69 pages of posts in this thread and wanted a single source of the latest regimen and dosing.

Do I still take calcium supplements as part of the anti-inflammatory regimen?  I sure do!  The last thing I need at my age, (pushing 70), is to break a bone while I'm out in the woods with my chainsaw bucking up big logs and splitting them for fire wood... 

Am I concerned that taking calcium and vitamin D3 causes arterial calcification?  No.

My wife Joyce has been taking 500 mg/day calcium as part of the anti-inflammatory regimen for three years... and she kicked the heck out of 76 last Christmas...

I'm constantly trying new supplement preparations in an attempt to minimize the number of pills needed each day for this regimen. 

I'm presently taking Mature Multi, (Kirkland brand from Costco), as a lower cost alternative to the calcium citrate, Centrum Silver, and other similar multivitamin preparations.  One of these tablets provides 220 mg/day calcium.

Here's a photo of the clutch of supplements I'm taking:

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As to your observations... Yes, in a sense, this regimen is a balancing act...  It's also been a serendipitous odyssey as we continue to improve its effectiveness in preventing CH with all beneficial side effects.   

As CH'ers, we need a higher 25(OH)D serum concentration ~ 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L), to prevent our CH, so we're taking higher doses of vitamin D3...

We take the Omega-3 fatty acids as an adjunct anti-inflammatory agent that has the added benefits of improved vitamin D3 absorption and cardiovascular health.

In order to metabolize that much vitamin D3, we need plenty of magnesium, zinc and a dash of boron.  We need these nutrients to support the enzymatic processes that metabolize vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D and 25(OH)D on to 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal form.

As vitamin D3 mobilizes calcium, primarily from the gut, we need to supplement with sufficient calcium to avoid having the vitamin D3 mobilize calcium from our bones due to insufficient calcium from dietary sources...

We also need vitamin A (retinol) that combines with vitamin D3 to form the molecular bridge at the genetic level between a vitamin D receptor (VDR) and Retinoid X Receptor (RXR).  This molecular bridge unlocks the genetic library that enables the genetic expression we think is responsible for preventing our CH... 

The current theory of the mechanism of action... and I'm sticking with it until this hypothesis is proven otherwise... is the genetic expression made possible by vitamin D3 enables nerve cells in the trigeminal ganglion to inhibit or down regulate production of calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP). 

The good Dr. Peter Goadsby and his fellow researchers found CGRP concentrations are elevated during active CH and migraine headaches.  Other studies have found that CGRP is responsible for neurogenic inflammation and CH pain.

This theory starts gaining strength and it shouldn't come as a surprise, as it appears some of the big pharmas are presently in the process of developing a prescription medication to control CGRP production.

Now for the vitamin K2 (MK-4 & MK-7) supplement.  I added it to the regimen for a number of reasons nearly a year ago...  The first is it was finally listed as a vitamin D3 cofactor by the Vitamin D3 Council.  The second reason was based on studies the vitamin K2 menaquinones MK-4 and MK-7 and their capacity to improve bone mineral density.  In view of the increased calcium mobilized by vitamin D3, this appeared to be a prudent addition. 

The third reason I've added vitamin K2 (MK-4, MK-7 or both) has been evolving over the last year as more studies have started researching the cardiovascular benefits of vitamin K2 and the synergistic benefits when combined with vitamin D3 and vitamin A (retinol). 

Unfortunately, availability of open source data from the few gold standard studies on vitamin K2 effects on arterial calcification that have completed is limited... Most of the results I'd like to see are behind pay-walls.

Henry Lahore, he is VitaminDWiki and all things vitamin D3, keeps web crawlers and spiders running 7/24 building indexes of articles on vitamin D3 and all the cofactors including vitamin K2.  He has a great page on vitamin D3 and vitamin K2...  See:

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An excerpt from the above web page on the safety of supplementing with vitamin D3...

"According to Heaney, (I've been bouncing the anti-inflammatory regimen along with the results from the online survey of CH'ers using this regimen off Dr. Robert Heaney, MD for the last two years...), controlled metabolic studies with D3 found that dosages up to 50,000 IU per day for up to five months produced neither hypercalcemia nor hypercalciuria.

Hathcock et al could find no reported cases of vitamin D intoxication from daily intakes of 30,000 IU per day for extended periods, nor any intoxication from serum 25D levels up to 200 ng/mL. They concluded that a 10,000 IU daily intake should be the safe Tolerable Upper Intake Level (formally abbreviated UL) - five times the UL set by the U.S. government in 1997."

Hope this calms any angst...  Take care,

V/R, Batch



 


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 16th, 2014 at 5:00am
Hi Batch
Thanks for the reply/info, very informative as usual. I just wish this forum would notify me of posts/replies, even with the thread favourited and my posts ticked I still don't get much through.

Anyway, I'm also in the process of reading Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book and what you say now actually makes sense  :)

I have managed to source all the stuff that you use, all on Amazon UK. That now of course includes the Kirkland Multi and the Super K. I have been using different brands of Magnesium and D3 but still at 400mg and 5,000iu tabs. The Omega 3 I get from Nature's Best.

I'm going to drop the Calcium as it is in the Kirkland Multi. I have about 5 tubs of Kirkland Calcium Citrate here if anyone in the UK wants any!!

I am working in the US a couple of times this year so will try and get some of the things that are cheaper there. My main one would be the Super K, is that available in stores in the US or only online? Obviously, a trip to Costco is a given.

Thanks again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 16th, 2014 at 5:29pm
Hey Chuffy,

Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book is a fascinating read...

Regarding notifications, click the "get notification" button at the bottom of the post you want to follow then go into your "User CP", click the "Profile" tab, select "Options" then scroll down to section on "Notifications" and click in the pull down window to notify by email = "yes".

That should work and I'm sure one of the experts will jump in to correct this if I'm off base...

Regarding a good source for the Super K with advanced K2 complex...  I think you've already got it with Amazon UK...  They have the lowest price here in the US.

If you want to save on total pill count, you should be able to order higher strength vitamin D3 from Amazon...  i.e., Healthy Origins Vitamin D3 Gels 10,000 IU Lulanolin Gels, 360 Count, $20 USD for 6 cents/day or Bio-Tech - D3-50 50,000 IU 100 caps for $20 USD, (take one every 5 days) for an average daily cost of 4 cents.

For reference, the latest clutch of supplements I'm taking shown in my post above works out to 45 cents/day.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 16th, 2014 at 8:29pm
thanks for all this info batch.
im still completely pain free and not a single shadow since feb 7th, got some k2 the m7 variety have been taking 300 iu daily.   but ordered some of your life extension k2 from iherb and it only took 5 days from the u.s to arrive in Melbourne, bought 2 bottles, so that's 6 months worth. am now going to buy the multi vitamin with the 200 of calcium that you use, which would eliminate me taking calcium on its own, I too have a sufficient calcium diet, I luv my cheeses as well.  so this is definitely going to cut down on the amount of pills I take daily, easier when traveling.
I will also look if they have 10,000 vit d3 as im taking 2 5000 vit d3 at the minute.
I herb definitely provide an excellent postage service.
thanks again batch
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 17th, 2014 at 6:41am
Thanks Batch.

One thing I keep forgetting to mention is that my partner, who is a Migraine sufferer, usually getting hit once a month or so, has also been taking D3 and Omega3 (and now K2) as long as I have and hasn't had a single Migraine attack in that time.

Which is also a bit of a result!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 17th, 2014 at 12:57pm
Hey Chuffy,

That is great news!  It appears the anti-inflammatory regimen is equally effective in preventing migraine headaches... if not more so. 

I've been trying to keep track of a dozen migraineurs who have been taking this regimen over the last three years including my wife who has been on it since December of 2010...  So far this regimen is working spot on with no sticky wickets...   

If pressed for a raw number... I'd say this regimen is at least 90% effective in preventing migraine headaches.  That's anecdotal given the small number of migraineurs, but none the less, still very promising.

Take care and thanks for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Feb 17th, 2014 at 2:21pm
Sorry to spike the migraine record, but whilst D3 works amazing for my CHs, it doesn't seem to help with my migraines.

I've been following the D3 route for about 3 years with no CHs in the last 2 and only 10 in the previous year. But 194 migraines in the last two years although the frequency has dropped now to once every 7 weeks or so.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nhs on Feb 17th, 2014 at 4:13pm
Hi,

Today It's 5 years since I got my last CH hit.  :D

I take 5.000 IU vitamin-D3, 500 mg Magnesium and 50 mg Zinc Picolinate. My wife who suffered from migraine has been migraine free for 4 years.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 17th, 2014 at 4:17pm
Hey Mike,

I've been tracking your posts...  You're part of the 10% whose migraines don't respond to this regimen.

CH'ers appear to experience a lower effectivenss with this regimen in preventing migraine headaches than they do with their CH...

The numbers are too low to be significant, but it also appears women have a better success rate than men using this regimen to prevent migraines.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 18th, 2014 at 1:21pm
I received my Kirkland Mature 50+ Multi and it say's it only contains 161.9mg of calcium?? I doubt they make different tabs for the UK market, maybe the labelling is just different.
So......does that mean I should still take one of the Kirkland Calcium Citrate tabs?

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 18th, 2014 at 4:27pm
Hey Chuffy,

Interesting... and I don't have a good answer for the difference in formulation unless it's a special formulation for the UK and EU. 

The Costco page on Mature Multi (Adult 50+) at the link below shows the same 220 mg calcium as the 400 tablet bottle I have.

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The photo of of the Supplement Facts on your Mature Multi (Adult 50+) clearly indicates a different formulation...  There's also more magnesium 100 mg in yours vs 50 mg in mine and less zinc 5 mg in yours vs 11 mg in mine.

I don't see any problem taking one of these tablets a day... However, if push comes to shove and the beast starts knocking... take two.

In the mean time, I'll call their Vitamin Infoline to see if they can shed any light on the different formulations.

Take care and thanks for the headzup on this product.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by KathMav on Feb 19th, 2014 at 6:56am
Hi,

I'm not a CH sufferer but a chronic migraineur and I also suffer with chronic body pain. My migraines are a little different in that my headaches are generally mild but I suffer predominantly with vertigo which started in 2008 and has never left. I recently came across a fascinating website by a US neurologist (I am in the UK by the way) called Dr Gominak. Her lectures on youtube are simply brilliant. Shame I can't post a link to her website.
She discovered the connection between neurological disorders and vitamin D in her patients by accident. When she got patients vitamin D levels to 60-80ng/ml she saw huge improvements in people with epilepsy, migraine, headache, parkinsons disease etc. I started a supplement of 5000 iu a day after reading her website and then after reading Dr Holick's work increased to 7,000 iu a day. After reading this website and the simply amazing results I have just started 10,000 iu per day. I already take magnesium, zinc and a multi vitamin plus I eat a great diet. I found I could do a Vitamin D blood test by post in the UK for Ł25 so I did this and got tested two weeks after starting the 5000 iu dose. My number came back as 30ng/ml. I plan to test again towards the end of March. I desperately want to get over 60ng/ml. I think it's been a downward spiral for me because when my migraines became chronic it was like a switch was flipped and I felt worse in the sun so I spent every summer indoors. Then the chronic body pain started two years after no sun exposure.
I have been reading this thread with great interest, so far I am up to page 32!!! Just thought I should introduce myself and really hope you don't mind that I don't have CH but am posting on here.

Kath

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Feb 19th, 2014 at 8:00am
Hi KathMav,  Interesting post, thanks for the info :)
I'm an epiosodic CH person, I've been on the Anti Inflammatory Regimen since Mid Sept 2013, no CH's! Also I'm trying to stick to the GOMBS diet, more often.  I also take regular 25(OH)D and PTH tests to ensure I'm in the right range.
My Father had Parkinson's, I'm sorry I hadn't reviewed this information earlier.  I truly feel there is a lot to be said about this, thanks to Batch, I'm speechless. [smiley=engel017.gif]
sue

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 19th, 2014 at 6:25pm
Hey Kath,

Welcome to CH.com and good on you for starting the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Don't be afraid to use the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing/loading schedule...  It can make this regimen work even faster in preventing your migraine headaches....

Dr. Gominak is clearly a vitamin D disciple... and an important one at that, given she's also a neurologist.

Her website link follows: 

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The link to her You Tube video presentations on Sleep and Vitamin D also follows:

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It's encouraging to hear a neurologist suggest naturopathic treatments like vitamin D3, vitamin B12 and sleep instead of the time worn, mainstream treatments with calcium channel blockers and anti-seizure medications that may or may not work to prevent migraines and all of which carry undesirable side effects.

I hope you find the anti-inflammatory regimen as effective in preventing your migraines as CH'ers do in preventing CH.

The numbers of migraineurs I'm tracking is limited... That said, 13 out of 16 have found relief with this regimen... so the track record is looking good...  BTW, the three migraineurs who didn't respond are also CH'ers... and men...  'Not sure what that means at this point...

You can find the list of supplements and dosing recommendations for the anti-inflammatory regimen at the following links:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 20th, 2014 at 4:50am
Wow, just watched Dr. Gominak's videos, I think we can safely say she gets it!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by KathMav on Feb 20th, 2014 at 6:00am
Hi again,

Thanks for the welcome. Just a quick question, for those in the UK on this regime which particular fish oil are you using? I'm looking at the Holland and Barrett website and a bit baffled by the choice.

I love the fact Dr Gominak admits doctors know next to nothing about nutrition, they feel it is below them and dealt with by nutritionists. She is one refreshing Neurologist.

I will definitely let you know how I get on because if it helps other migraineurs who stumble across this site than that's got to be a good thing.

Kath

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 20th, 2014 at 6:33am
Hi Kath, after a lot of hunting around and review reading I settled on this one as it has good EPA and DHA levels. I take two a day.
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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 20th, 2014 at 12:32pm
Hi Kath, welcome here, it is a good place to be and for learning lots. I'm in Ireland and i get all the components of the regimen in the U.S from a site called iherb.com   everything is much cheaper than the shops here and probably a good bit cheaper than the U.k too. they have a $4 posting option if the packet is less than 4lb weight.
the fish oil that Batch takes and i too is here

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batch recommends that we take 2 softgels/day

This is the d3 i take and is very cheap. it is 5000iu per softgel, so 2 to 3 /day will do a maintenance dose

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you can buy the whole regimen there in iherb apart from the K2, you can buy the K2 that batch takes and recommends on amazon.co.uk  Chuffy found it there.
All the best
:)



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 21st, 2014 at 3:33am
The only thing to watch out for with the Fish Oil is how much EPA/DHA you are getting per tab.
With the iHerb one you are getting EPA 360 and DHA 240 in 2 tabs.

With the Nature's Best oil you get that in 1 tab! So it in fact works out a lot cheaper, especially if you buy two tubs for Ł24 as you get free postage on orders over Ł15.

If you do a bit of research you will find that most experts suggest a daily intake of 1000mg of combined EPA/DHA. So that would be 4 of the Nature Made (IHerb) softgels and two of the Natures Best ones.

As thierry said the rest is on Amazon UK, examples being:
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With the Super K, if you buy from American Vitamin Spot you get 180 tabs for Ł23.95 post free and it comes from the US, how they do that I don't know but it's a bargain. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

BTW Thierry, what Multi are you using and do you take separate Calcium and Magnesium as well?

The reason I ask is that I'm trying to cut down on the number of tablets for when I'm touring and as the Multis have Cal/Mag in them (albeit in smaller doses than you get from the separate supplements) is there any need for the extras as well.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by KathMav on Feb 21st, 2014 at 9:36am
Thanks so much for the links, I am off to place an order. Does everyone find that they need both the fish oil and the vitamin D to get benefit. I was wondering if anyone found that Vitamin D alone only worked so well but when they added in the fish oil they really got results?

Kath

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Eroc on Feb 21st, 2014 at 11:05am
Batch,

To summarize,  I have been out of cycle for nearly 3 years,  I have been taking 15,000 to 20,000 IU's of D3, Magnesium, Calcium Citrate reasonably regular for the entire time.  I did drop the fish oil as there is now some link to prostate cancer.  I just had my levels checked and was at 78.1.  I live in Minnesota and we have had a harsh winter.   This is typically the time of year that I get hit with a cycle, March'ish every two years or so.  Two nights ago I was hit with a KIP 6 or so and extinguished it with 4 MG of Trex.  The next morning I upped my D3 to 50,000 IU's and quickly ordered the oxygen.  I have yet to get hit since.  I know the beginning of a cycle can be hit or miss, but I think I am going to shoot for a 25 OHD3 level around 120 and see what happens.   

Thoughts? 

Thanks for your help!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 21st, 2014 at 11:10am
Hey Kath,

Good question.  As the guy who developed this regimen, it was my experience that Omega-3 Fish Oil provided a noticeable preventative effect when I took it after turning chronic in 2005. 

When I added calcium citrate tablets with 800 mg vitamin D3 and most of the cofactors, the CH preventative effect increased... (an average of three to four hits over 24 hours down to one or two). During the summer months with lots of exposure to sun, this combination provided pain free periods up to a week...

When I added a therapeutic dose of vitamin D3, (10,000 IU/day), I was completely pain free in less than two days.

My wife was a chronic migraineur for more than 20 years with migraines hitting once a month for 3 to 5 days...  She's not had a single migraine since she started taking this regimen in December of 2010.

It might interest you to know that I've been in contact with Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD since reading your first post.  It appears the anti-inflammatory regimen has the same key supplements and doses she prescribes her patients.  Being a physician, she also prescribes a few additional injections when needed.

My takeaway after the info exchange with Dr. Gominak, is see your PCP or neurologist to obtain lab tests for 25(OH)D and vitamin B12.  She found nearly all of her patients were deficient in both.

The latest clutch of supplements I take for this regimen are shown below.  They provide everything you'll need including the vitamin B12 that Dr. Gominak finds important as it works with vitamin D3 to get restful quality sleep.  The B-12 is in the Mature Mult along with most of the other vitamin D3 cofactors.

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Feb 21st, 2014 at 3:32pm
[quote author=0221342328400 link=1291969416/1734#1734 date=1392852317]Dr. Gominak is clearly a vitamin D disciple... and an important one at that, given she's also a neurologist.

Her website link follows: 

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The link to her You Tube video presentations on Sleep and Vitamin D also follows:

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A very, very interesting video that is well, well worth spending the time to watch. Whilst she does not mention CH specifically, she is covering a lot of neurological issues including headaches, all of which seem to benefit from vitamin D3. She explains her voyage of discovery from initially looking at sleep issues to vitamin B and then to D3.

What really caught my attention was the focus on the D3 levels and not the dose since D3 is not actually a vitamin but a hormone. The level will naturally vary during the year being higher in summer and lower in winter, so regular monitoring is important plus the potential need to vary the dose with the seasons to avoid going too low or too high.

Thank you for posting this link Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Bob27 on Feb 21st, 2014 at 3:38pm
Hello to all my fellow CH’ers. This is my first post here and it is long overdue. I have been reading here for years and finding many ideas to help corral this beast.  I am happy to say that I
can add another success story to the D3 regimen.  I have had CH’s for 30+ years, DX’ed 10 years ago.
Typical misdiagnoses of sinus related issues. Cycles are about a month long, 3 – 6 HA/day  with a 3 – 4 year remission. The day the shadows started appearing this cycle I found this thread and read every word from the beginning. I started on the regimen immediately and can say I was one who benefited within days. My cycle usually starts with about 3 days of shadows then ramps up rapidly. On the D3 I never went  past a Kip 3 for this entire cycle. I cannot say I went PF on the regimen but I fall into the “significant reduction in frequency and duration” category, and it was significant! I also had many 24-48 hour periods of PF time within my cycle, something I have never had before.  After 7 days on 20,000 iu/day  (plus co-factors) my 25(OH)D came back at 35ng/ml. After 30 days on 20,000 iu/day the next test returned a result of 107 ng/ml.
I have completed the survey and glad to add 1 more positive result.
Batch, I want to add my heartfelt thank you for your knowledge and willingness to help your
fellow CH sufferers. It is appreciated beyond words.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 21st, 2014 at 4:59pm
Hey Bob,

Thank you for the wonderful feedback and kind words.  It's posts like yours that encourage CH'ers sitting on the bench wondering what to do next, take the first step and discuss this regimen with their PCP or neurologist and ask for the 25(OH)D lab test.

I've been exchanging email with Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD this week per my earlier post on this page.  She's been using a very similar regimen on her migraine patients for well over six years so she's gained a lot more experience with it in a clinical environment.

She's suggested lowering the upper boundary of the "green zone" 25(OH)D response range from 60 to 110 ng/mL to a narrower optimum range of 60 to 80 ng/mL as illustrated in the following chart.

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Her rational for this range isn't driven by vitamin D3 intoxication with elevated serum or urine calcium as that occurs at 25(OH)D serum concentrations above 200 to 300 ng/mL, but rather that sustained 25(OH)D serum concentrations above 80 ng/mL start to interfere with enzymes, hormones and other peptides needed for restful sleep.

This isn't a significant change in the vitamin D3 dosing schedule we use in the anti-inflammatory regimen... Most of us will continue to need a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day to stay in the optimum 25(OH)D range of 60 to 80 ng/mL... 

What it does mean is CH'ers who test above 85 ng/mL will need to lower their maintenance dose to around 7,000 to 8,000 IU/day.

Bob, now that you've got the CH beast largely under control, the next thing to try is "tuning" the anti-inflammatory regimen by changing doses of the supplements.

For starters you can drop the vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day and test again in a couple months.  Doubling the Omega-3 Fish Oil and bumping the magnesium to 600 mg/day has helped some CH'ers achieve a more effective preventative effect. Cutting back on the calcium or eliminating it for a few weeks has helped others.  I've also doubled the zinc to 20 mg/day.

Hope this helps get you completely pain free...  Remember to stay on this regimen when out of cycle taking at least 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3...  When the next cycle comes around you can bump the vitamin D3 back up to 10,000 IU/day and that should have you sailing through with little or no painful CH attacks.

Take care, thanks again for the wonderful post, and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 23rd, 2014 at 4:19pm
Hello everyone! Batch! Glad to be back. It has been kind of hard for me to get on here as of late when I have been too busy enjoying a better quality of life. Yet another success story using the ''B-bomb'' which is what I so affectionately nicknamed the D3 regimen after Batch. It has been the strongest weapon in my arsenal. I am now one month well into the regimen and I have to report that It has been 16 days since my last CH and 12 days being pain free!!  I am down to 10,000IU D3 and I have dropped the Calcium. So just taking D3, Fish Oil and Centrum silver. I want to thank everyone on here for their support since day one and very specially, Batch, you are God sent. You have given me my life back and you deserve a Nobel Prize for all your research. Thanks for giving so much to so many people. Survey completed. I shall be checking in.  :)

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 23rd, 2014 at 10:54pm
Hey Andy,

Thanks for the wonderful feedback... I know the feeling when you finally get the CH beast under control with this regimen and the confidence gained in knowing how to keep it away...

Thanks also for taking the online survey...  I'll be presenting the survey results to neurologists attending the 2014 Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Neurology, April 28, in Philadelphia... 

This is a great opportunity for all CH'ers as it will finally get information on the anti-inflammatory regimen of supplements and its efficacy in preventing CH in print. 

There's no guarantee neurologists will read the published abstract... but we will have and article printed in a neurology journal to reference.  That way if doubtful neurologists say "WTF" when CH'ers ask for the 25(OH)D lab test and want to start this regimen, they'll at least have a more authoritative response.

Take care and thanks again for the wonderful feedback.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 24th, 2014 at 2:29am
Quote from Chuffy:

BTW Thierry, what Multi are you using and do you take separate Calcium and Magnesium as well?
          -------------------------------------------

Hi Chuffy, I hope you are well, I guess you are, as you are pain free   :)

I am actually not taking a multi. Back when i started the regimen -1 year ago-, all this being new to me, I actually got all the ingredients of the regimen seperately and still do so to this day. So i have a bottle of each of the following:

Doctor's best D3, 2 softgels = 10000iu
Solgar calcium citrate, 2 tablets = 400mg
Solgar magnesium citrate, 2 tablets = 400mg
Solgar vit A, 1/2 tablet = 2500 iu
Nature made fish oil, 2 softgels = 2400 mg
Nature's plus Zinc, 1 tablet = 10 mg
Now boron, 1 capsule = 3 mg
source of life garden Vit K2, 1 capsule = 120 mcg

I get all of these from iherb.

I have recently discovered from one of Batch's above posts that I am not taking enough K2 and will now buy the Life Extension Super K.
I am aware that I could be taking a Multi and reduce the amount of bottles I have and pills I take every day. I will start taking the regimen as Batch does (photo above in Batch's post) after I run out of what I have, However as you have mentioned, I might need to tweek it a bit as you have pointed out that the Kirkland Mature Multi from Amazon UK does not have enough calcium and magnesium, and it seems a little low on the zinc too. Also, like you rightly pointed out, the fish oil from Nature's Best seems to be a cheaper option.
So it looks like I am going to change my shopping habits and get buy some of the ingredients from Amazon UK instead of buying everything from iherb.
Apart from the regimen, I also take 1 tablet/day of Solgar Ultimate B + C complex, some Ginkgo Biloba extract and I put of spoon of organic Maca powder in my porridge every morning, the maca powder is great for an active man, -if you get my drift  ;),   I am blessed with having a very lovely, beautiful and active partner, she is a gem.

I have been mostly pain free for the last year, with just one very short cycle where i had a couple of Kip 9 in june which is always my worst time. My life has been transformed and I do not dread spring or autum coming and the "oh noooo" feeling when you start getting the first few shadows.
All the best to you and yours and all here
:)

Oh, and Batch, YOU ARE A STAR, A LIFE SAVER. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for your relentless work and research and helping each and every one of us that comes knocking on your door.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Feb 24th, 2014 at 11:37am
For you who don’t know me -
I suffer from one of the extreme sorts of CH, and was diagnosed as intractable CCH
(Chronic Cluster Headache). 

Without medication I averaged (AM = Arithmetical maiden) up to 8 episodes a day at an average high (AM) pain level of kip 8.
A CH episode lasts 45 to 50 min; without abortive treatment, an episode is accompanied with
all the classic CH symptoms.

I have undergone treatment with almost all the schoolbook standards of care preventative / abortive medications for CH, and was a guinea pig to some new and innovative treatments.
   
None of the treatments provided sustainable positive results, or gave me a full (even limited) success in preventing my CH…
 
The only treatment I have NOT tried is the CB alternative.
I do think it could provide me with some relief; it is not compatible to my job requirements however.
 
All treatments (I have undergone) had one or more undesirable side effects that made the risk-reward ratio unfavourable so the choice to continue or discontinue the treatment was made very easy.
 
The anti-inflammatory treatment (AIT) for me is not a magic bullet - BUT


Being under very tight control and monitoring by doctors in the endocrinology department at KSSG (Kantonspital St. Gallen Switzerland).
The AIT has allowed me to achieve a steady 85% reduction in the frequency of my CH episodes.  It has also resulted in a significant (over 50%) reduction in the pain level of the remaining episodes… hardly ever going over Kip 5 anymore.

I achieve all of the above without any immediate apparent undesirable side effects. On the contrary, my bone density (monitored as well) is improving and my current overall sense of well-being is very good.

And as my broken bones (A double fracture of the Fibula) are in good shape, I will start paragliding again, and do all the things I like….

Michael

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 26th, 2014 at 6:43am
@thierry, thanks for getting back to me, stupid forum still not notifying e of new posts etc.

I think the Costco Multi we get in the UK will be good enough. I will be picking up the US version when I go over in April though  ;)
l
I have also got the Super K supplement now. I think everyone should read "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" by Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue, it's a real eye opener.

Anyway, I am now taking the natures best Omega 3 caps 2000mg, D3 10,000iu, Magnesium 400mg, the Kirkland Multi (UK version) 1/day and the Super K 1/day. Just dropped the extra Calcium for the time being. PF for nearly 15 months now.

And yes, batch should get the Nobel Prize  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 27th, 2014 at 3:05am
Hi Chuffy, you probably know this but i'll say it anyway just in case.
When you are typing a reply, under the box in which you write, there are 3 little squares you can tick (or not), the top one is to get notified of replies. Did you try that?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Feb 27th, 2014 at 7:54am
Yes done all that. It notifies me of a reply to my actual posts but doesn't notify me of other replies to the thread. It's now doing something else weird in that it wouldn't let me reply while at home but now I'm at work it's let me?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Mar 20th, 2014 at 8:13pm
Hi Batch and all,
Pain Free - 164 days and counting

Its been three months since my last lab results
March 18th 2014 results:
184 nmol/L  or 73.6 ng/ml
PTH 3.7

I've been maintaining through the winter months with 10,000 D3 with other daily co-factors listed in the anti-inflammatory regimen and have remained pain free.

I'm episodic and normally my attacks run through the winter months lasting up to 3-4 months.  At times CH hits me in the summer as well, not always.

Once we see "spring" & warmer weather, I'm would like to drop my Vit D3 intake to 5000 daily.  Your thoughts Batch?

Thanks again Batch, your a lifesaver  :)
Sue

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 20th, 2014 at 10:03pm
Hey Sue,

Wonderful news and good question.  I stay on a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day year round, but I do increase it to 15,000 IU/day and some times 20,000 IU/day during suspected colds and heavy pollen times...

In your case, a maintenance dose of 5,000 IU/day during the summer months should be just fine...  The only question is when to ramp back up to 10,000 IU/day...  I've a feeling your body will tell you when it's time to up the dose.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Mar 29th, 2014 at 7:01am
Does anyone take an Organic multi, as the more I read about Centrum and its equivalents the more I feel there could be something far better to take?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by B.Baer on Mar 31st, 2014 at 8:11pm
Batch,
Happy to report, OVER TWO YEARS PF. Could not be happier. Keep up the good work.

All the best,

Baer

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kutsuki on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 11:37am
Hello, new here,

I am have headaches that come every 2 years that last about 1-2 months. Previously, I have been prescribed 30mg of Topamax and that did the trick but this round, it hasn't been working. The friendly supportive people on the "Getting to know ya" section have pointed me in this direction so I will begin the regimen. I hope this will put the beast back into hibernation and maybe to sleep for good.

Just to double check, I want to make sure I'm doing this right:
Omega 3 Fish Oil - 1000 to 1200 mg/day (EPA 360 mg/day, DHA 240 mg/day)
Vitamin D3 - 10,000 IU/day
Calcium - 500 mg/day (calcium citrate preferred)
Magnesium - 400 mg/day (magnesium citrate, magnesium glycinate, magnesium malate or magnesium orotate)
Vitamin K2 - MK-4 1000 mcg/day,  MK-7 200 mcg/day
Vitamin A - 900 mcg (3,000 IU) for men
Zinc - 10 mg/day
Boron - 1 mg/day or honey
Have it with Orange Juice

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 12:53pm
Hey Kutsuki,

Welcome to the anti-inflammatory regimen...  You've got the supplements and doses spot on...  Try to see your PCP about getting a lab test for 25(OH)D. 

That said, if it's going to take more than a few days to obtain that lab test, I wouldn't wait to start this regimen.  The lab test after 30 days on this regimen is more important.  We can always work the average response curve backwards to estimate your starting 25(OH)D serum concentration.

In addition, don't be afraid to use the accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule or to double up on the Omega-3 Fish Oil.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 12:56pm
Hey Baer,

Thanks for the wonderful update.  I'm happy this regimen is working well for you...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kutsuki on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 2:42pm

Batch wrote on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 12:53pm:
Hey Kutsuki,

Welcome to the anti-inflammatory regimen...  You've got the supplements and doses spot on...  Try to see your PCP about getting a lab test for 25(OH)D. 

That said, if it's going to take more than a few days to obtain that lab test, I wouldn't wait to start this regimen.  The lab test after 30 days on this regimen is more important.  We can always work the average response curve backwards to estimate your starting 25(OH)D serum concentration.

In addition, don't be afraid to use the accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule or to double up on the Omega-3 Fish Oil.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Thank you for the support Batch, I am going to get started right away and I am waiting for my PCP to return my call to schedule an appointment for a lab test.

I have a question about the Vitamin A, you said having too much is a bad thing? 900 mcg or 3,000 IU a day is ok or skip that if you know you've had enough Vitamin A from food?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kutsuki on Apr 3rd, 2014 at 9:08pm
I have a follow up question too. With all the co-factors I feel like I am taking so many pills, I just feel weird taking 6 x 2 pills each. Are there any combinations pills or brands out there that nicely package these together or does everyone take these pills separately?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Apr 4th, 2014 at 2:15am
hi kutsuki,  welcome to the regime !
listen, when I first started taking the d3, to be honest, the last thing I cared about was how many pills I was taking !
I'd willingly take 50 if it got rid of the beast  !!
ive refined mine, ive got d3 5000, so that's only 2 pills
my multi, like batches has 200mg of calcium, I too have a high calcium diet, so that eliminates a couple, a couple of fish oil, 1 vit k, 2 magnesium pills,  so that's about 8 pills.
I swallow the d3 and the k at the same time, 2 magnesium go down the neck at the same time, fish oil is a tad big for both together   lol,   try and see if you can get higher values in some of the tablets which might help.
otherwise, hey, spend the 30 seconds that it takes, thinking about how the regime can help you, and honestly its far less hassle than the option of the beast hammering you !!   lol
good luck with it kutsuki
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 4th, 2014 at 4:35am
Hi Kutsuki,
this D3 is 10000 iu per softgel,

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so you only need to take one of those daily for the maintenance. If you are taking the loading dose you'll need to take more but it still means taking less pills. Also with 360 softgels in the box, you won't have to keep buying some.
You do not state where you live, if you are in the UK, amazon.co.uk also sells this product.
All the best with the regimen   :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kutsuki on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:29am
Thanks for the support guys, I am from maryland, I had no problem getting all the pills, I was just simply wondering if I was missing out on a multi-vitamin that had all of the above in one pill. I am able to buy 10000UI off the counter.

Does anyone have any multi-vitamin suggestions? I'm sure that will help cut down on some of the cost.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 4th, 2014 at 9:54am
Hi Kutsuki, Batch takes a multi, it is Kirkland Mature Multi, you can see it on a picture he has posted, the pic is on page 70 of this thread.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 4th, 2014 at 12:47pm
Kutsuki,

You're not the first CH'er to comment on the number of pills.  That's one of the reasons why I've evaluated a slight change in the brand of supplements I'm presently taking that replaces the Kirkland brand of Calcium Citrate with Mature Multi. 

I buy the first four of these supplements at Costco.  I get the Super K and B 50 from Amazon.  The remaining reasons for switching from Kirkland's Calcium Citrate to Mature multi include a lower calcium content for CH'ers taking verapamil, and vitamin A (retinol) that wasn't in the calcium citrate formulation.

You should be able to find these or similar brands at Walmart, most supermarkets, the Vitamin Shoppe or over the Internet.  Check the Supplement Facts label and serving size to make sure.

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The pill count includes two of the vitamin D3 and two of the Omega-3 softgels, one of the magnesium softgels, one of the Mature Multi tablets and one of the Super K Advanced K2 Complex.  That comes to a total of seven capsules...

There are a few brands of Omega-3 Fish Oil that have the needed EPA and DHA in a single capsule.  That can bring the total count down do six capsules.

This combination comes very close to meeting the anti-inflammatory supplement doses in the following table:

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The vitamin B 50 complex (not shown in the above photo) is optional and only needed for a maximum of three months if the lab test for vitamin B12 indicates a deficiency or the basic regimen hasn't resulted in a pain free response after tuning...

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kutsuki on Apr 4th, 2014 at 1:44pm

Batch wrote on Apr 4th, 2014 at 12:47pm:
Kutsuki,

You're not the first CH'er to comment on the number of pills.  That's one of the reasons why I've evaluated a slight change in the brand of supplements I'm presently taking that replaces the Kirkland brand of Calcium Citrate with Mature Multi. 

I buy the first four of these supplements at Costco.  I get the Super K and B 50 from Amazon.  The remaining reasons for switching from Kirkland's Calcium Citrate to Mature multi include a lower calcium content for CH'ers taking verapamil, and vitamin A (retinol) that wasn't in the calcium citrate formulation.

You should be able to find these or similar brands at Walmart, most supermarkets, the Vitamin Shoppe or over the Internet.  Check the Supplement Facts label and serving size to make sure.

The pill count includes two of the vitamin D3 and two of the Omega-3 softgels, one of the magnesium softgels, one of the Mature Multi tablets and one of the Super K Advanced K2 Complex.  That comes to a total of seven capsules...

There are a few brands of Omega-3 Fish Oil that have the needed EPA and DHA in a single capsule.  That can bring the total count down do six capsules.

This combination comes very close to meeting the anti-inflammatory supplement doses in the following table:

The vitamin B 50 complex (not shown in the above photo) is optional and only needed for a maximum of three months if the lab test for vitamin B12 indicates a deficiency or the basic regimen hasn't resulted in a pain free response after tuning...

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Hi batch, Thanks for your reply! I will go to Costco and grab some of those! I got my lab test done today so I will post my results as soon as I get them. My pcp thinks 10000UI of Vitamin D is silly but he says it doesn't hurt to try. I'm excited to see the results!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 4th, 2014 at 5:33pm
Hey Kutsuki,

Send your neurologist the following link:

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Let's see if we can get him singing from the same sheet of music...

Please let us know the actual serum concentration of your 25(OH)D lab test.   That will help in computing a vitamin D3 loading schedule for you.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Apr 5th, 2014 at 6:01pm
Greetings everybody, Batch!! I am happy to report I am still pain free. It feels good to see more people are discovering the regimen and I wish the best for them all.  Batch, quick question... I am missing the magnesium in my setup...what exactly is the magnesium for? I shall have to pick me up some.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 5th, 2014 at 7:00pm
Hey Andy,

Glad to hear you're staying pain free and good question.  Magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate and magnesium citrate have the highest bioavailability and least problems with osmotic diarrhea. 

That said, I've been taking the Nature Made brand of magnesium oxide in liquid softgel form and haven't had any problems.

400 to 500 mg/day magnesium should be more than adequate.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Apr 7th, 2014 at 5:17pm
Thank you, Batch. I will be getting me some as soon as possible. Best of all to you and wishing everyone here pain-free days ahead.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kutsuki on Apr 8th, 2014 at 7:01pm
I got my 25(OH)D results back today. I have 28.0 ng/mL. When I took the test last Friday (4/4/2014), I have only taken the regimen once. I have been 5 days pain free! Thanks Batch.

About when would you recommend I take a follow up 25(OH)D test?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bcsanders on Apr 8th, 2014 at 7:09pm
Hello Batch and everyone,
I am an ech trying to get out of my current cycle.  The major hits have seemed to end but I have shadows all day some of the breaking through at a K3 or 4.  So I have about 50 pages of this post and figure I have nothing to lose going on this regimen to get rid of the constant shadows.   First of all Batch, you are the most kind person I know as I can't count the number of questions you have answered and all the data you r compiling.   But here are my questions.    I started the vitamins, all but calcium and k2 two days ago.  I brought centrum for men over 50, I am 46.  Is there enough calcium in that not to supplement more.   I am taking the magnesium, fish oil, 10k vitamin D3.  I am a big milk drinker and cheese eater.   Have appt with neuro tomorrow and gonna try to get a scripts for d3 syrum.   Lastly,not sure I understand the acidic alkaline issue.   Would eating  orange be as wffective as drinking lemonade.   Thanks for any tips you are all godsends to me.   

Craig

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Apr 9th, 2014 at 2:10am
hi bcsanders,  good luck with the regime, stick with it as some take longer to respond.
I take the same multi which I believe has about 200mg of calcium which I believe is about 22 % of our daily requirements, I to have a high calcium diet, lots of milk and I love my cheeses, so I don't take any other supplements. sometimes, like when I was recently away and my diet wasn't as rich in calcium, ide take and extra calcium pill to compensate,but im happy in general with the multi vit otherwise.
one thing you didn't mention was whether you got tested for you 25 (oh) d   ?   if your levels aren't at 60-80 you can accelerate the vit d to get u up the the green zone a lot quicker !  where as depending on your level, it could take quite a while to reach the sweet spot,  as per batches graphs.   really is worth while hetting that test done, but i'll let batch respond to you on that
all the best with it, here's hoping you go pain free
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bcsanders on Apr 9th, 2014 at 6:39am
Thanks Colin,
I started the regimen on Sunday and have an appt with neuro today and am going to ask for the test.  Today will be day 3 on regimen so I will see how I feel.  It's a new neuro I have only seen one other time.  If they seem resistant I will just go to my pcp who I have been seeing for 15 years and I know would be willing to work with me.   Thanks for the advice.  Much appreciated.
Craig

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Apr 9th, 2014 at 8:52am
hi craig,
I was lucky when I first started the regime, I was at my doctors the day after I read about it on here, so I took the test and 3 days later I had the test results, of which I was deficient, so i started, as soon as the vitamins arrived, at the accelerated doses straight away, which meant when i re-tested 5 or 6 weeks later i was in the green zone.
my shadows are fortunately easy to break, i simply scull down a cold red bull and mostly it does the trick.
im currently weaning off verapamil, to be only on the vit d3 regime, so im a tad nervous, but hoping for a good outcome.
so good luck with it, hope you get good results with it.
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 9th, 2014 at 11:58am
Hey Craig,

Welcome to the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Great questions...

For starters, the klingon shadows and K-3 to K-4 burn through attacks will likely go away after a week or so...  You can make them vamose a lot faster by starting the acclerated vitamin D3 loading schedule.   

This loading schedule calls for 20,000 IU/day for two weeks followed by another two weeks at 15,000 IU/day.  In addition, during the first two weeks, take a 50,000 IU vitamin D3 loading dose, once a week for the first two weeks on top of the 20,000 IU daily dose.

If you run the numbers, this comes to a total of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 over the four-week period or an average of 21,000 IU/day vitamin D3. 

The average 25(OH)D response to this 600,000 IU vitamin D3 intake is an increase of 60 ng/mL on top of the starting 25(OH)D serum concentration. 

Regarding the Centrum for men 50 plus, it should have at least 220 mg calcium and eating an orange will be a good source of citric acid. Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bcsanders on Apr 9th, 2014 at 1:56pm
Thanks Batch,  I will try the accelerated.  I am feeling a bit better today - day 3 -but not all there yet.  Definately more noticibly less shadows - they are coming less often.    Went to Neuro this morning.  She could not have been any more welcoming to this regimen.  She gave the script for the Vit D serum test and wanted to keep the documentation that I showed her from WikiD.  She said that nothing in the regimen could hurt me and that the test was a good idea just do you don't overload on D.  IN 27 years I have never been in cycle this early in the year and blame it on the polar vortex. Trying the VitD in hopes the beast does not recycle in the oncoming spring weather change.  I will let you know how I am doing over the next few days and will let you know my serum level. 
Warm regards to all:

Craig

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Martinlay on Apr 12th, 2014 at 11:08am
Hi
My name is Martin, I'm 65 from UK, an episodic clusterhead for 27 years and in my current bout since January. I saw this thread a week ago and so started the D3/Omega3 regimen 6 days ago with great optimism but I'm still having my usual 4-6 attacks daily.  How long should I give this before I can expect to see results?  I'm currently also taking Topiramate since February as an possible preventative but that's not had any effect so far, like everything else I've tried in the past.  O2 doesn't work for me and so all I have are the 2 sumatriptan injections allowed per day and I'm rapidly approaching my wits' end. I would be grateful for your advice.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on Apr 12th, 2014 at 11:36am
Hi Martin,
I'm very surprised to hear the 02 does not work for you, as it is a powerful vasoconstrictor.
Most people who don't have success with it are not using it correctly. I'm not saying you are one of them so please don't be offended, but so many people suffer unnecessarily because they didn't know how to use it or it's been prescribed wrongly. So just in case, may I ask how high was the flow rate and what kind of mask did you use.

The flow must be at least 15 litres per minute or more, and you must have a non rebreather mask. Get either of those wrong and it won't work.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Martinlay on Apr 12th, 2014 at 11:49am
Hi Maz

Thank you for your reply.
The only time I used oxygen was when I was an inpatient at the Headache Group of the Institute of Neurology in London, the premier hospital in the UK for the treatment of cluster headaches, and I was supervised by doctors who are experts in their field. I am confident, therefore, that it was being used correctly!  That was probably 7 years ago so maybe I should ask my doctor if I could try using it again. My attacks rarely last longer than 25 minutes so I am not really sure how beneficial the o2 would be anyway.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Martinlay on Apr 12th, 2014 at 11:52am
Maz, I just realized you're also in UK so you know about Dr Matharu and Queen Square et al  ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 12th, 2014 at 3:06pm
Hey Martin,

Welcome to the anti-inflammatory regimen and thanks for the initial feedback.  Have you seen your PCP or neurologist for the lab test for 25(OH)D? 

Knowing your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite can be very helpful in determining how long it will take for a favorable response to this regimen... and how much vitamin D3 to take.

Are you taking the rest of the anti-inflammatory regimen?  Magnesium is very important.  It supports the enzymatic processes that metabolize vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D and on to 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal metabolite we think is responsible for the CH preventative effect.

You may need to increase your vitamin D3 intake, but without the results of a 25(OH)D lab test, it's difficult to say how much or for how long...

If you're taking the liquid softgel capsules or liquid form of vitamin D3, pop 15,000 to 20,000 IU of these capsules between your back teeth and hold the contents between your cheek and gums for 15 to 20 minutes without swallowing or drinking any fluids.  If you're using the liquid vitamin D3 drops, put them under your tongue,  Do this as soon as you feel your next CH approaching.

Taking vitamin D3 this way bypasses the GI tract and gets the vitamin D3 directly into the blood stream very rapidly.  You should find taking vitamin D3 this way will help abort the CH.

Regarding oxygen therapy not working...  This happens... but there are usually several reasons why...  If you wait until the CH pain has ramped up to levels 6 to 8, the aborts with oxygen therapy will take much longer than if you started at the first sign of an approaching CH.

If you wait until pain reaches level 9 on the 10-point headache pain scale, an abort with oxygen will be limited and it will take a long time (>20 minutes)... If the pain has reach pain level 10, an abort with oxygen therapy will be nearly impossible and you're just along for the painful ride...

The second problem that prevents aborts with oxygen therapy is the breathing technique.  Most of us start out breathing oxygen like we breath room air...  with slow shallow breaths... 

Breathing this way fails to ventilate the lungs completely.  That's why many of us who have become proficient at aborting our CH with oxygen therapy use oxygen flow rates of 25 to 40 liters/minute...  Simply put, keeping up with these flow rates forces us into hyperventilating at higher lung tidal volumes and that ventilates the lungs more completely.

Start your next oxygen therapy by standing and breathing through your mouth with jaw dropped like saying the word, "Haw."  Standing gives your diaphragm full range of motion and this helps ventilate the lungs more completely.  If you get dizzy... and you will...  lean against a wall...  If you feel too dizzy, sit erect in a chair.

Start this session by hyperventilating with room air.  You do this by exhaling forcibly and when it feels like your lungs are empty...  they're not... do an abdominal crunch like doing situps and hold the squeeze until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds.  This will squeeze out an additional half to full liter of exhaled breath.

Then without delay, inhale rapidly from the diaphragm with head and shoulders back and chest out... As soon as the lungs are full, repeat the forced exhalation technique above.  If you're doing this correctly, you should be completing 10 complete respiration cycles in 30 seconds.

With 10 seconds to go in your first 30 seconds hyperventilating with this breathing technique, turn on your oxygen supply valve with the flow rate selector at the highest setting to let the reservoir bag fill... Cup the face mask against your tummy or knee to keep oxygen from escaping.

At the end of 30 seconds hyperventilating with room air with this breathing technique, take a deep lungful of oxygen and hold it for 30 seconds.

If you've done this procedure properly you start experiencing the symptoms of paresthesia... a very slight tingling or prickling of the face, lips, back of the neck and fingertips shortly after inhaling an holding the lungful of oxygen. 

You'll feel these symptoms start to build as soon as you've filled your lungs with oxygen and started holding it... They will continue to build for about 15 seconds then you'll start feeling them subside...  They'll be almost gone after holding the lung full of oxygen for 30 seconds.

Keep repeating this sequence until the CH pain is completely gone.

The entire procedure is called hyperventilating at forced tidal volume capacities...  The net effect of this procedure is casting off CO2 faster than your body generates it through normal metabolism.

I can hear the wheels turning... What has CO2 got to do with aborting a CH?  The answer is... a lot.  CO2 dissolves in water and blood serum to make carbonic acid.  A high blood CO2 content and low pH triggers vasodilation...  For cluster headache sufferers, vasodilation means pain...

By reducing the amount of CO2 dissolved in the blood stream through hyperventilation, we elevate arterial pH making the blood less acid and more alkaline.

Blood hemoglobin is very sensitive to pH.  At a low arterial pH, (more acid), hemoglobin releases oxygen and uploads CO2.  This is what happens in muscles and tissues in the body all the time. 

When the return venous blood flow reaches the lungs where the pH is higher, (more alkaline), hemoglobin offloads CO2 in the exhaled breath and uploads oxygen with the next inhaled breath. This is the normal oxygen and CO2 transport mechanism that keeps us living.

By intentionally hyperventilating with room air long enough to elevate arterial pH, we're pushing our body into respiratory alkalosis. 

The net effect of breathing 100% oxygen at this point is the blood hemoglobin is now carrying up to 12% more oxygen than normal.  The combination of an elevated arterial pH and super oxygenated blood flow triggers a rapid and pronounced vasoconstriction... When this happens in and around the trigeminal nerve... it aborts the CH pain...  very effectively and very rapidly. 

The important thing to remember about using this breathing procedure during oxygen therapy is it is just an abortive...  and not a preventative.  Your CH will likely return in a couple hours...  unless you're also taking the anti-inflammatory regimen.

You're also wondering if this breathing technique and oxygen therapy procedure is safe...  It's very safe.  The symptoms of respiratory alkalosis will clear in 30 seconds to a minute breathing normally.  This lets the blood's CO2 content build back to normal levels.

I've hyperventilated with oxygen since 2005 to abort my CH and have yet to pass out... even when I wanted to in the worse way... 

All of us will pass out due to a lack of oxygen.  That is called hypoxia...  insufficient oxygen at less than normal levels...

When we use the method of oxygen therapy described above, we induce just the opposite condition... hyperoxia... excess oxygen or higher than normal partial pressure of oxygen. 

Hyperventilation also induces hypocapnea...  lower than normal partial pressure of CO2.  Hyperoxia and hypocapnea trigger the sensations of dizziness... that's why you lean against a wall or sit erect in a chair.

Practice this breathing technique and procedure before your next CH...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on Apr 12th, 2014 at 5:34pm
Hi Martin.
No I hadn't heard of him. I just googled his name.

To be honest I have had very little help from the medical profession. I was referred to a neuro in Chichester who  says I can't have cluster headaches because I'm a woman, and diagnosed me with TAC. But the thing is, Cluster headache IS a TAC. so he just doesn't make sense. He went on to prescribe various meds for other conditions and of course they don't work because I do have clusters.

Everything I know about this condition and how to treat it, I have found out from this site.This is where I heard about sumatriptan and oxygen among other things. My GP admits she knows nothing about it but fortunately she is willing to prescribe what I ask for (within reason of course). If I had not found this site I would still be completely untreated after 6 years. It comes to something doesn't it, when you have to tell your doctor what you need. Good old NHS. :(

If you do decide to try the 02 again, and if it works this time it definately will be beneficial. Get on it fast enough and it will abort in about 5 mins. For you, thats 20 minutes of your life back. Untreated, mine last between 30 and 45 mins so the 02 saves me a lot of pain. Follow Batch's recommendations for the best chance.

If you google "cluster headache splitting injections" you'll find a tip on you tube how to get 4 doses from your 2 injections. Most people say 3 mg is enough to abort a CH.

Good luck, and keep us posted.
Maz.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Martinlay on Apr 16th, 2014 at 2:16am
Hi Batch

Thanks for taking the time to give me so much information (#1783).  I have to admit that I initially saw only your first post in this thread and in desperation immediately started only on D3 and Omega 3 hoping for a miracle!  However, the good news is I have now been pain free for 4 nights and 3 days and truly believe I have reached the end of this particular bout (14 weeks)... I feel like a different person than I did a week ago of course!

However, I have printed off lots of information provided by your good self both about the regime and oxygen therapy, which I shall try to persuade my doctor to take a look at so that we're prepared for the next time the beast comes a-knocking on my door.

Batch you are a man among men.. thank you sir.

Regards
Martin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 16th, 2014 at 12:43pm
Hey Martin,

Thanks for the update...  If you stay on the anti-inflammatory regimen year-round... the odds are high there won't be a next time...  In other words, you should sail through your normal CH cycle time pain free...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 17th, 2014 at 2:54pm
Recently started a cycle again and not sure where to go from here.  A little background:

My regular, maintenance regimen consisted of:

Omega-3 Fish Oil - 2000 mg
D3 - 10,000 IU
Magnesium Citrate - 400 mg
Calcium Citrate - 500 mg
Centrum Silver for Men
Zinc Oxide - 10 mg

This is the regimen I was using when I started a cycled at the end of December.  I upped my D3 dose to 15,000 IU on 1/9 and posted my 25(OH) results which came out to 93.9 ng/mL.  Batch recommended a baking soda tonic 4X/day and that I should stop taking calcium citrate for awhile.  I also added 500 mg of curcumin daily per his advice.

My cycle eventually subsided on 2/11.  After a couple of weeks being in the clear, I added 250 mg of calcium citrate back into my regimen along with taking the curcumin out of it. 

I recently started a new cycle on 4/8 so I again stopped taking calcium citrate immediately, added a weekly loading dose of D3 50,000 IU on 4/8 and added curcumin on 4/15.  I also started taking Super K complex on 4/12 and a baking soda tonic 4X/day on 4/15. 

I just received my 25(OH) results today for a test I took on 4/15 which came out to 111.0 ng/ML. 

This cycle has been pretty intense with multiple KIP 5-8 hits during sleep and have been somewhat resistant to O2. 

Any ideas and what I should try next?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 18th, 2014 at 1:47am
Hey Slacker,

You're not alone.  I know what you're going through... It's happened to me and there are others reporting a similar recurrence of their CH over the last month or so...

I suspect the culprit is a high pollen count that's triggered an allergic response that's consuming the active vitamin D3 metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3 at rates that leave too little to prevent CH.

I had a few days of burn through hits in mid March when the Alder pollen was coating my pickup like someone had dusted it with a bag of Portland cement.  The burn through hits started again in early April when the Maple pollen was turning my pickup yellow...

I've tried a few things that appear to have been effective in getting me back to a PF state...  The first is increasing the magnesium intake to 600 to 800 mg/day.  Magnesium is essential in the enzymatic processes that metabolize 25(OH)D to the active metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3. 

I also started the three month course of vitamin B 50 complex that Dr. Stasha Gominak suggests to her headache patients taking a similar vitamin D3 regimen. 

She's been prescribing this regimen for over six years and has the clinical data to back it up...  She added vitamin B 50 when some of her patients reported the basic regimen wasn't as effective as it had been in the past.  It worked...

B 50 is essentially a formulation of 50 mg each of the seven B vitamins and it should take care of any vitamin B deficiencies. 

Along with the B 50, I also started taking 1000 mg vitamin C two to three times a day every two hours.  The half life of vitamin C is 30 minutes after reaching Cmax.

Finally, I started popping 3 to 5 of the 5,000 IU vitamin D3 liquid soft gel capsules between my back teeth and holding the contents between my cheek and gums and kept it there for 20 minutes without swallowing.  I did this prior to bed at night as most of my burn through hits were coming while sleeping...

It takes a couple days for the 25(OH)D to build, but the vitamin D3 serum concentration goes up rapidly as it bypasses the lower GI tract and passes directly into the bloodstream through the cheek and gums.

The net effect was very short aborts when using oxygen therapy with hyperventilation and a pain free response by the second to third day after starting this method of taking vitamin D3.

You should be able to improve the effectiveness of your oxygen therapy and shorten the abort times by hyperventilating with room air for 30 seconds then inhaling a lungful of oxygen and holding it for 30 seconds...  Repeating this 4 to 5 times should be sufficient to abort most of your CH...

The important thing is the breathing technique while hyperventilating...  This breathing technique is called hyperventilating at forced vital capacity tidal volumes... 

You do this by standing with your jaw dropped like saying the work "Haw." Standing gives your diaphragm full range of motion and this increases lung ventilation.

Start this breathing technique by exhaling forcibly until it feels like your lungs are empty... they're not.  At that point do an abdominal crunch like doing situps and hold the squeeze it until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds...  then through your shoulders back, head up and chest out and inhale rapidly using your diaphragm.

You should be doing 10 complete respiration cycles every 30 seconds while hyperventilating with room air...  Keep repeating this sequence until the pain stops completely.

If you're doing this properly, you should feel the symptoms of paresthesia when you inhale the 100% oxygen...  A very slight tingling/prickling of the face, lips, fingertips and chest area.  These sensations will build for 10 to 15 seconds after inhaling and holding the oxygen then dissipate until they're almost gone after 30 seconds when your restart the complete sequence again.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 18th, 2014 at 2:36am
Batch,

Thanks for the info.  I'll get some B50 and vitamin C first thing tomorrow.  A few questions for clarification:

- Is there a particular brand of B50 complex you recommend?

- For the 3-5 capsules of D3 before bedtime, is that on top of my regular 15,000 IU dose that I'm taking after dinner?  And do you think it would work sublingually (under the tongue)?

- Should I keep taking a 50,000 IU loading dose one day a week?

-For the vitamin C, you said "1000 mg vitamin C two to three times a day every two hours".  I'm a little confused by this since 2-3 times per day and every two hours seem to conflict.  Can you clarify?

Thanks,
Brian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 18th, 2014 at 1:07pm
Hey Brian,

Good questions...  and poor wording on my part...

Regarding brands of vitamin B 50...  I'm a fan of Nature Made products primarily due to the USP logo on most of their products...  That means this product has been analyzed by an independent lab (USP) and found to meet purity and concentrations listed on the label.  Puritan's Pride is another good US brand.

You only need a max of 90 days supply and 60 will likely work to remedy any B vitamin deficiencies...  After that, the Mature Multi Adult 50 tabs should meet B vitamin needs.

Regarding the vitamin D3...  You can drop the 50,000 loading dose if you're popping 3 to 5 of the 5,000 IU liquid soft gels a day between your cheek and gums.  Absorption through the cheek and gums is about the same as under the tongue and a little less bothersome.

Regarding the 1000 mg vitamin C tabs...  Take one every two hours, 2 to 3 times a day...  You can take more if you like up to 5 times a day...  There's no problem with vitamin C toxicity... only bowel tolerance... 

The rationale and thinking behind taking vitamin C is based on its antiviral properties...  Any time we're puffed up with an allergic reaction, we're likely more susceptible to a viral infection.  In short, the vitamin C is just insurance against a viral infection that would also compete for vitamin D3 metabolites.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 18th, 2014 at 1:22pm

Batch wrote on Apr 18th, 2014 at 1:07pm:
Regarding the vitamin D3...  You can drop the 50,000 loading dose if you're popping 3 to 5 of the 5,000 IU liquid soft gels a day between your cheek and gums.  Absorption through the cheek and gums is about the same as under the tongue and a little less bothersome.


So just to clarify, instead of taking my usual 15,000 IU with a meal, I should dissolve 15,000-25,000 IU in my mouth before bed?

As for the B-50, after taking it for 3 months, can I start taking it again for another 3 months if another cycle hits?  And should I keep taking the mature multi tabs while taking the B-50?

Also, do you think taking melatonin before bed has any sort adverse effect on this regimen?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 19th, 2014 at 6:27pm
Hey Slacker,

Yes to your first question.  Taking vitamin D3 this way will ensure its serum concentration will be relatively high during the time of your night hits... 

The vitamin D3 serum concentration will drop as your liver converts it to 25(OH)D...  After that, the 25(OH)D is further metabolized to 1,25(OH)2D3 in the kidneys and at the cellular/nuclear level throughout the body. 

It's this last extrarenal path (outside the kidneys) that takes place within the cell nucleus at vitamin D3 receptor, (VDR) sites at the genetic level, we think is responsible for the genetic expression that helps prevent CH.

1,25(OH)2D3 needs to bind with vitamin A (retinol) at the VDR for all this to function properly.  The Mature Multi has enough vitamin A for this purpose.

Regarding the B 50...  3 months is more than sufficient to take care of any B vitamin deficiency...  After that the Mature Multi should maintain adequate B vitamin levels.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 19th, 2014 at 8:11pm
Got it.  Thanks again Batch.  I'll keep you guys updated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by bcsanders on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 12:24pm
Started the Vit D regimen two weeks ago.   Still getting some shadows.  Had my D serum test after 1 week of 10,000 iu per day and my level was 32 ng/ml.  Yikes.   Started on 20,000 iu per day and will take Batch's advice and load 60,000 once per week.  Will check back in.   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 2:37pm
Update:

Since I started taking B-50 complex, upping magnesium citrate to 600 mg and dissolving 15,000 IU before bedtime on 4/18, I've experienced a marked improvement.  I had one bad KIP 9 hit which I was unable to abort yesterday but most of my hits have been easily aborted within 5-10 minutes.  I also didn't wake up to any hits last night which is the first time in weeks that I've had a full night's sleep.

Batch, one question I forgot to ask...should I keep laying off the calcium citrate for now?

Thanks,
Brian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 6:27pm
Hey Brian,

Thanks for the update.  Vitamin B 50 was new to me until a few months ago when I started exchanging survey results with Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD, a neurologist at ETMC, Tyler TX. 

She's been using a similar regimen for her patients with sleep, chronic pain and headache disorders for over six years...  The only real differences is she adds a 3 month course of vitamin B 50...

She found nearly all her patients started experiencing quality sleep that lasted the night after adding the vitamin B 50...

Taking the calcium supplement is still a good idea...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 6:45pm

Batch wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 6:27pm:
Taking the calcium supplement is still a good idea...


Should I add back just 250 mg of calcium citrate or the full 500 mg?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:11pm
Yes...  220 to 250 mg/day calcium should be sufficient...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:35pm
Got it.  Thanks Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ihatech on Apr 24th, 2014 at 4:17pm
Hi Batch,

I'm going to try to get my husband who is chronic for the last 5 years to try the regimen.  He tried it some time ago with not much luck, but I think he did not try it for a long enough period of time.  He is in a bad cycle now. 

Do you take all of the recommended regimen doses at the same time (ie., with breakfast)?

Thanks!  I'm glad you are still PF.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 24th, 2014 at 4:19pm

ihatech wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 4:17pm:
Hi Batch,

I'm going to try to get my husband who is chronic for the last 5 years to try the regimen.  He tried it some time ago with not much luck, but I think he did not try it for a long enough period of time.  He is in a bad cycle now. 

Do you take all of the recommended regimen doses at the same time (ie., with breakfast)?

Thanks!  I'm glad you are still PF.


Batch will confirm but I believe he recommends that you take everything at once with the biggest meal of the day.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 24th, 2014 at 5:11pm
Hey Ihatech,

Try to get your husband in to his PCP and ask for the 25(OH)D lab test...  Knowing the 25(OH)D actual serum concentration will help in determining the most effective dose of vitamin D3 and also approximate the response time.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 25th, 2014 at 1:08pm
Hey Batch,

I had been pain free for a couple of days (4/23-4/24) before getting hit a couple of times last night.  I added 250 mg of calcium citrate back into my regimen on 4/23.

Do you think there's any correlation or should I just chalk it up to just being a couple of rogue hits?

Thanks,
Brian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 25th, 2014 at 6:38pm
Hey Brian,

Good question...  It's hard to tell until there's a clear trend one way or the other.  In any event, I'd skip the calcium for a few weeks to see if you get back to a completely PF status...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 25th, 2014 at 11:59pm
Thanks Batch.  Will do and keep you posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ihatech on Apr 28th, 2014 at 11:22am
Hi Batch,

Thanks for your response.  My husband's 25 (OH) D level was pretty low at 24 ng/mL on his blood work.  What do you suggest? 

Hard to believe, but we just talked to his Neuro - a well known cluster H/A specialist in the Houston area (Dr. Ninan Matthew) and he is telling us that if Verapamil and Caffergot do not work as preventives (and they haven't) that Botox injection is one we can try that may work and then that's all that can be done.  Quite frustrating.  We're going to seek a second opinion.

Thanks.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 28th, 2014 at 12:02pm
Ihatech,

Your husband needs to start the vitamin D3 loading schedule.  This dosing schedule calls for 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 over a 4-week period...  Yes, I know that sounds like a lot but it averages out to a little over 20,000 IU/day.

The key part of this loading schedule is it's front loaded with higher doses to elevate your husbands 25(OH)D serum concentration a lot faster and that should translate to a favorable response in less time.

He needs to start this loading schedule with two weeks at 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  In addition, he needs to take a 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 on top of the daily 20,000 IU vitamin D3 once a week during the first two weeks.  For the next two weeks he can lower the vitamin D3 dose to 15,000 IU/day.  He also needs to take all the other supplements and doses listed in the anti-inflammatory regimen table below.
START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

The following photo illustrates the supplements by brand that I take to get the required doses listed in the table above.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

At the end of the 4-week loading schedule, your husband needs to see his PCP for another 25(OH)D lab test.  If this loading schedule works for your husband like it has for many other CH'ers, his 25(OH)D response should average 60 ng/mL on top of his starting serum concentration...

In other words, his 25(OH)D serum concentration should be around 84 ng/mL at the end of the loading schedule.

Again this is a very safe vitamin D3 loading schedule.  I have a study where 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 was given in a single oral dose to 43 adults with no evidence of hypercalciuria, hypercalcemia, parathyroid dysfunction or radiological evidence of calcification. 

There's a second Phase I/II Safety trial where 25 multiple sclerosis patients were put on an escalating vitamin D3 dosing schedule for one year that reached a maximum dose of 40,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for six weeks before dropping back down to 10,000 IU/day.  Again, no problems...  Their RRMS got a lot better.


Regarding botox injections...  Botulism Toxin...  It will kill any and every cell it comes in contact with and these cells will never be replaced. 

We all come with a very functional set of nerve cells that serve a number of essential functions...  Killing some of these nerve cells to stop a pain is a bad move when all you need to do is give these cells the nutrients they need and they'll heal themselves.

Sorry... I didn't mean to get up on the soap box...  I just find it hard to believe that big pharma makes a killing in the pharmaceutical market space selling a very toxic poison...  after talking physicians into using it...  I may be old school, but that sure throws "Do no harm" under the bus...

Take care, hang in there and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kutsuki on Apr 28th, 2014 at 8:56pm
Hello, I have started the Vitamin D regimen a little over 4 weeks ago. When I started, my 25(OH)D test came back with 28 ng/ml. I've been relatively pain free for the most part but I still get daily shadows. I've tried adding vitamin B-50 complex suggested earlier since I know I am allergic to the pollen. In addition, I have tried taking those off the counter Zyrtec anti histamines to see if that works.

Any suggestion welcome! thanks

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Apr 29th, 2014 at 1:49am

ihatech wrote on Apr 28th, 2014 at 11:22am:
Hard to believe, but we just talked to his Neuro - a well known cluster H/A specialist in the Houston area (Dr. Ninan Matthew) and he is telling us that if Verapamil and Caffergot do not work as preventives (and they haven't) that Botox injection is one we can try that may work and then that's all that can be done. 


START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Treatment of headache with botulinum toxin A—a review according to evidence-based medicine criteria
Cephalalgia
Volume 22, Issue 9, pages 699–710, November 2002
S Evers, A Rahmann, J Vollmer-Haase and I-W Husstedt


Quote:
The aim of this review is to evaluate the studies available from reference systems and published congress contributions on the prophylactic treatment of idiopathic and cervicogenic headache with botulinum toxin A, and to classify these studies according to evidence-based medicine (EBM) criteria. The studies were analysed with respect to the study design, the number of patients enrolled, the efficacy parameters, and the significance of results. We used the following classification of EBM. I: randomized, controlled study with sufficient number of patients; II: well-designed, controlled study (or randomized, controlled study with insufficient number of patients, no exact diagnosis, missing data of botulinum toxin A dose); III: well-designed, descriptive study; IV: case reports, opinions of experts. For tension-type headache, two studies were found with negative evidence of I with respect to the primary endpoint. There are about as many positive as negative studies with evidence of II or III. For the therapy of migraine, one study with both negative and positive evidence of I, one in part positive study of II, and three positive studies classified as III are available. Two studies on cervicogenic headache with evidence of II and III are contradictory. In addition, we found several positive case reports. For patients with cluster headache, there are positive and negative case reports. We found one positive case report for the treatment of chronic paroxysmal hemicrania. As a result of this analysis, we consider no sufficient positive evidence for a general treatment of idiopathic and cervicogenic headaches with botulinum toxin A to date. Further studies are needed for a definite evaluation of subgroups with benefit from such treatment.


There is very limited evidence for the benefit of using botox for the treatment of CH, so this isn't a great option to try.

I'd be much more inclinded to try the vitamin D3 option as this is getting good results for over 80% of people trying it with some people (including myself) going several years CH pain free.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Apr 29th, 2014 at 3:52am
the nuero that I go to has a colleague that works at the same hospital that has been using botox for a few years on headache patients.
she told me that I could if I wanted give it a go, but she told me his success rate for cluster sufferers was quote, about 5 %. and none have had any long term reductions.
the vit d3 regime has a success rate of around 80 %
some of these proceedures like botox, the specialists are claiming it a success if 5 % of there patience have any sort of lessening of their symptoms ! and this was from the horses mouth.  in my opinion, the odds are extremely low and the only one that would insist its worth the effort is the specialist sticking the needle in and charging you an arm and a leg in the hope of being one of the 5 % that it gave any short term relief. here in Australia they recently did a trial of low dose vit d, in female patience over 50 that suffered from migraines. the 6 month result of the full placebo trial, was that in 27 % of those on the vit d showed positive reductions in symptoms and then declared the trial a success and said within 5 years they could see it being a standard preventative.   sort of makes a mockery of what batch has been doing and the success that has been achieved.
an interesting comment by dr Gominak in her link that batch put up, was that in effect in America there is one person that has the final say on what medical papers are allowed to be published, the older school of medical practicioners that refuse to adopt any new methods other than that published in medical journals are the reason,like the doctor I first saw, who said that that much vit d3 consumed will kill you ! is the only reason that the likes of batches work and dr Gominak aren't more widely known.
well that's my rant for today   lol
but the more I research, both here and on the net about our disease the more I see how closed minded and completely dismissive some of the medical profession are.
my original doctor refused a script for oxygen, said it wouldn't work for me, and reffered me to my first specialist, a professor of neurology at monash university here in Melbourne, who diagnosed me as having cluster headaches, at his headache practise, and sent me away with a script for bulk neurofen !
thank god I found this forum !!!!!   lol
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 2nd, 2014 at 7:09pm
I'm 4 years pain free on the D-3 regimen after well over 30 years of episodic CH. Just got blood results back from this years physical, D, 25-OH, D-3 is at 86. I'm no soap box preacher but I tried:

Fiorinal. Midrin, Cafergot, Oxycontin, Hydrocodone, Verapamil, Prednisone, Oxygen. Imitrex, Lithium....and I'm sure I'm leaving a sh%$ load of pharmaceuticals off the list. Now I take daily, every night at dinner:

1 multi vitamin, I fish oil, one calcium, 1 5000 unit D-3 and 1 magnesium.

Pennies a day, no side effects from dangerous medications and no headaches. Ya GOTTA give this a try.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Imitrex4Breakfast on May 2nd, 2014 at 10:46pm
A little off topic, BUT I've been around for ages and I can't remember another thread w/ OVER 1800 replies and 182,000 views.

Anyone??

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on May 3rd, 2014 at 2:52am
that's great news Joe,
   im sure hoping to get that sort of result !
Its funny how everyones reaction is different.
was your pain free state instant ?
I sort of feel, that when we are suffering, that's when we first start taking it, during a cycle and expect an instant result !  ive been on the regime for about 10 months, app.
and for me, still having to fine tune things.  I can feel the monster lurking at the minute !  some red bulls have so far quelled its attemps to surface,  so, so far, touch wood, he hasn't come out, but a few shadows and other symptoms are showing, so I know its there !  im really happy that in a week or so, i'll be taking no drugs ! just the regime.  hearing your success really, really gives me and im sure others to either start the regime or continue with it.

colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 3rd, 2014 at 10:06am
It wasn't instant relief for me but I wasn't on the "current D-3" regimen either. It started out as an anti inflammatory regimen that Batch was working on, he suggested I go on it when oxygen stopped providing relief for my attacks. Within 36 hours on the original regimen, the oxygen was knocking beasty out again. That cycle was fading out as Batch continued to tweak the regimen.....I continued to tweak it as Batch added the D-3, Beasty has never returned!

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on May 4th, 2014 at 10:42pm
Been pain free since starting the D3 regimen in January  [smiley=clap2.gif]  Glad to be back at work without the beast at my side. 

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 4th, 2014 at 11:14pm
Great news Andy! [smiley=thumb.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on May 4th, 2014 at 11:17pm
Thank you!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on May 5th, 2014 at 3:23am
yeah, that's great news Andy and Joe !
 
Joe,  when you say pain free,  have you ever felt shadows occasionally appear ?  or are you in a complete state of pain free, no shadows or "twinges"   ?

colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on May 5th, 2014 at 5:06am

wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 3:23am:
when you say pain free,  have you ever felt shadows occasionally appear ?  or are you in a complete state of pain free, no shadows or "twinges"   ?


For me I've been totally CH pain free, so not even shadows or twinges, for over 2 years.

I've still had migraines which is a different story.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 5th, 2014 at 8:54am
Nuthin....Lab, my wife and I are still in dis-belief that something that dictated so much of our lives for over 30 years, could be laid to rest with a simple vitamin regimen. Needless to say, I'm NEVER going off of it!

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Callico on May 5th, 2014 at 1:48pm
Great news, Joe!  Besides that, look what it did for your mustache!  ;D

Jerry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 5th, 2014 at 3:40pm

Callico wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 1:48pm:
Great news, Joe!  Besides that, look what it did for your mustache!  ;D

Jerry

;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 5th, 2014 at 5:59pm
I had a great visit with Dr. Todd Rozen, MD, last Monday at the American Academy of Neurology Annual Meeting in Philadelphia. 
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I was there presenting the poster on the results from the online survey of CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent their CH.

Todd indicated he's been treating his chronic CH'ers at the Geisinger Neurosciences Institute in Wilkes-Barre, PA with vitamin D3 and seeing the same wonderful results we've been experiencing.

Todd looked like a Rock Star... sharp, lean and cut... while I was my portly self...  Todd is a migraineur, so I suspect he's been taking vitamin D3 as well...

Todd wasn't the only neurologist to come up to me to talk about their patients taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3.  One neurologist looked over the poster then turned to me and said... "So you're the one..." 

I raised my hands and pleaded "guilty" with a big smile...  He said one of his long time CH'ers had called for an appointment because his CH had ramped up and had become a real problem... Then he received another call from this patient a week before the appointment saying he'd stopped his CH by taking vitamin D3... and was completely pain free...

The poster presentation at the AAN Annual Meeting is already starting to pay dividends... for all of us...  I've been responding to a number queries from neurologists about the anti-inflammatory regimen... Hopefully this will translate into more neurologists testing their CH patient's 25(OH)D... then starting them on the anti-inflammatory regimen.

I'll be posting the survey results from the poster as soon as I get it reformatted.  The poster page size is 5' X 3.5' so it's a bit too big at the moment.

None of this would have been possible without support from all the CH'ers who took the time to take the online survey and comment on their experiences with this regimen here at CH.com... 

Thank You and take care.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on May 5th, 2014 at 8:33pm
Batch...there's a sh%$ load of people pain free because of your tireless efforts at figuring out what made this silly sounding "anti inflammatory" regimen work. I'm just hitting 4 years using your "silly assed" idea of Vitamin D-3 stopping CH.  [smiley=bow.gif] [smiley=bow.gif] [smiley=bow.gif]

Seriously sir, it's one thing to find something that makes you pain free and then getting on with life. You've chosen to spend thousands of hours of your own time, trying to get this out to the rest of the world. For that I salute you sir, you're a fine man, it's a pleasure to know you and call you my friend.  [smiley=hug.gif]

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on May 5th, 2014 at 8:59pm
Thank you Batch, that is simply a wonderful update to read. Whilst there are lots of people here who have been experiencing life without the pain of CH we all know there are lots of people around the world, both patients and doctors, who do not yet know of the amazing changes vitamin D3 can make. But with steps like this, they get the chance to live life free from CH pain.

Looking forward to seeing more research papers published from multiple neurologists so this really takes the CH treatment world by storm.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Marc Everette on May 5th, 2014 at 11:52pm
Hello all,
I was diagnosed with CH 6 years ago. I was diagnosed with Sleep Apnea late 2012 and started using a CPAP machine. No headaches in 2013 so I thought the sleep apnea was causing the CHs. My headaches returned last week and I’m back to looking for other options. My wife did tell me recently that I’ve started to snore while I have the CPAP mask on so I guess I can’t totally rule it out. Either way I’m going to give the D3 regimen a try. I have an appointment with my neurologist tomorrow and I’m going to mention it to him to see what he thinks. Just curious to hear what his thoughts are as I’m going to move forward with the D3 regimen regardless.

I must say I’m a little nervous about the 50000 IU loading dose. I may try 20000 IUs in the morning and 10000 at night for the first 5 days. I’ll be sure to report back with the results.

Batch thanks for all the hard work you’ve put into this. You are already a hero in my book.

Marc

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on May 6th, 2014 at 3:05am
marc, welcome,  please view the video posted on here by batch by dr gominak who has linked sleep disorders with vit d3 deficiency, she used to prescribe the cpap, she has been using the vit d3 regime for 6 years with huge success and reports of patience throwing there cpap away.
thanks mike and joe, that's fantastic news.
im sticking at it,  shadows are a whole lot better than what I was getting before, in fact life changing !
just need that magic balance of something to eliminate the shadows.    im playing with the other vitamin levels while my vit d level sits constantly around 200nmol.
cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on May 6th, 2014 at 5:07am
Ditto Joe!
Thank you Pete for your endless support for all of us  [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=applause.gif]


Guiseppi wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 8:33pm:
Batch...there's a sh%$ load of people pain free because of your tireless efforts at figuring out what made this silly sounding "anti inflammatory" regimen work. I'm just hitting 4 years using your "silly assed" idea of Vitamin D-3 stopping CH.  [smiley=bow.gif] [smiley=bow.gif] [smiley=bow.gif]

Seriously sir, it's one thing to find something that makes you pain free and then getting on with life. You've chosen to spend thousands of hours of your own time, trying to get this out to the rest of the world. For that I salute you sir, you're a fine man, it's a pleasure to know you and call you my friend.  [smiley=hug.gif]

Joe


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 6th, 2014 at 3:29pm
Hey Marc,

Welcome aboard CH.com... I wouldn't worry too much about taking the 50,000 IU vitamin D3 loading dose once a week for two weeks on top of a daily intake of 20,000 IU vitamin D3.  The 4-week vitamin D3 loading schedule adds up to a total of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3, or a little over an average of 21,000 IU/day.

The attached study reports the results of a single oral dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 with no adverse effects...  I've two other studies where 500,000 IU vitamin D3 was given in a single oral dose...  Again... no problems.

Take care and please keep us posted on your progress with the anti-inflammatory regimen.

V/R, Batch

http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Effect_of_a_Single_Oral_Dose_of_600_000_IU_of_Vitamin_D3.pdf (545 KB | 0 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ihatech on May 6th, 2014 at 3:38pm
Thanks Batch.  The hardest part of getting my husband to try this again is that he HATES to take pills of any kind for a long period of time.  I try to explain to him the difference between prescription drugs and supplements, but it doesn't seem to change his perception of pills in general.  We will be attending the convention in Nashville and I am hopeful that when we finally meet people who have shared our horrible experiences with the beast and their success with the Vit D regimen, it will be a turning point for the better.  I am looking forward to speaking with supporters who can relate to me and also speak to people who have felt mine and my husband's pain, as it has been extremely painful for me to watch and feel helpless.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on May 6th, 2014 at 9:55pm

ihatech wrote on May 6th, 2014 at 3:38pm:
The hardest part of getting my husband to try this again is that he HATES to take pills of any kind for a long period of time. 


I'm not sure that anyone likes to have to take pills of any kind for long periods of time. But if in doing so I remain CH pain free then I know that I'll be happy to keep taking the pills as the issues around that in no way compare to active CH.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on May 7th, 2014 at 6:22am
wow,  convention in Nashville !!!!
  sure would have been great to have something like that down under,   I certainly wouldn't miss it.

and ditto, as mentioned about batches unselfish work he does that benefits so, so many people.

colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 7th, 2014 at 1:23pm
Ihatech,

You can always pick up a bottle of Bio-Tech 50,000 IU vitamin D3 gel caps and stick one in your husband's mush or on a chicken fried steak under the gravy once a week...   ::)

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ihatech on May 7th, 2014 at 1:26pm
Hi Batch:

I forgot to mention that my husband is chronic since 2010.  Does the Vit D3 regimen work equally well for both chronic and episodic or does there seem to be a difference in response time, etc.?

Thanks again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Imitrex4Breakfast on May 7th, 2014 at 3:24pm
Batch,
    Do you really have CH ? How many other ailments do you have that you treat with the D3 ? Did you build that website yourself about all of the illnesses and diseases that D3 can treat ? And lastly, do you give seminars to doctors and neurologists about D3 for CH and for other diseases ??
    Just curious. Please fill us all in on what stake you have in the D3 business please.

    Thanks

    I4B

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 8th, 2014 at 2:58am
I4B,

Nearly 20 years with CH and chronic since 2004...  Other than that, all I fight is old age... and vitamin D3 does a wonderful job at slowing that down...  I feel better now pushing 70 than I ever did at 50...  Go figure...

Presenting a poster with results from the survey of CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to neurologists at the AAN annual meeting in Philadelphia is as close as I'm going to get to a seminar...  and I don't recall seeing any member of the vitamin industry there offering to pick up the tab for all my expenses...

The VitaminDWiki site is run by my dear friend Henry Lahore...  He lives 30 minutes North of us in Chimacum, WA.  Henry is all things vitamin D3 with a bunch of web crawlers sucking up anything and everything from the Internet as it applies to vitamin D3 7 X 24 X 365...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on May 8th, 2014 at 6:58am
Good Day everyone and Batch :)
Following Batches regimen, I'm continuing to be CH free (tx Batch), since Sept 2013.
March 18/14 - 25(OH)D3 test result:   73.6ng/ml
I'll re-test in June.

For approximately a month now, I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced heartburn... Its not anything like our CH pain, just annoying.  Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance :)
Sue

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 8th, 2014 at 12:28pm
Hey Sue,

Thanks for the update.  I can only recall one or two other CH'ers commenting on heartburn after starting this regimen...

Taking all the supplements with food, preferably with the largest meal of the day usually prevents most GI problems...

Eating the evening meal a little earlier and staying up for at least two hours after eating is generally the best way to prevent heartburn.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Imitrex4Breakfast on May 8th, 2014 at 9:48pm
Forgot to say: Thank you for serving Batch :-)

And no disrespect intended on previous post.

I4B

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on May 10th, 2014 at 10:15am
Hi Pete,
You already know my thoughts of gratefulness that I share with you every time we meet.  The Philly trip post/photo was very impressive to read.  Congratulations!   ;)

Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on May 12th, 2014 at 1:53pm
Hey Batch, well done on presenting the survey results at that meeting.
It's great to put a face on the name too, you look like a fun guy. I've no plans on visiting the U.S, but if I do i'll make sure to meet with you. In the meantime, if you ever intend to visit Ireland, you'll be welcome with open arms.
All the best and thank you again for all the help, I am 3 months into my second year PF thanks to your regimen, apart for a little when the pollen appears.
:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ihatech on May 12th, 2014 at 2:39pm
Hi Batch:
Thanks for your time and advice!  I am seeking another (more open-minded) Neuro for my husband (in Houston, Texas) and due to the enormity of this thread, cannot seem to find the graphs/reports,etc. that would be good to show our new neuro regarding the D3 regimen.  Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions on what else to look for in a cluster H/A neuro?  I am going to ask questions regarding their treatments prior to making an appointment.  The neuro we have now is well known (Dr. Ninan Matthew), but when I inquire about alternative treatments and ask questions, he just gets frustrated and is very hard to converse with. 

Thanks for your help.  And thanks to all who have responded to my posts.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 12th, 2014 at 3:07pm
Ihatech,

If you're looking for a neurologist willing to use alternative/naturopathic methods of controlling cluster headache, give Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD a call...  Her practice is in Tyler, TX roughly a 3 hour drive North of you...  Her website link follows:

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She's been treating patients with sleep, chronic pain and headache disorders for over six years with a vitamin D3 regimen very similar to the anti-inflammatory regimen many of us take to prevent CH...

I've been sharing the results from the online survey of CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen and she's been very supportive.

She may know of a fellow neurologist in the Houston area who thinks along the same lines as she does.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ellick on May 13th, 2014 at 1:18pm
Hi Batch,
I'm looking for a bit of advice.
My episodes have become every other year. When they do arrive they are different. The big hits are worse but the build up is less intense and it keeps feeling like it is going away.
Currently I rarely get a day time hit but when I do it absolutely shoots me to bits. I have had Ch all my life but some of these hits are way and above the worst I have known.
At night I am up every 45 minutes for 30 minutes of O2.
I went on to the D3 regimen about 5 days ago and it hasn't altered anything much except the last two hours of the night I don't need O2. Needless to say, I'm tired and can't think straight.

My regimen is 18,000 iu by mouth spray, 1200 mg of Calcium Citrate, some Magnesium, zinc and Copper (all combined in the Calcium tablet) I take 3 or 4000 mg of Omega 3, 6 and 9 but this is not fish oil, it is flax seed oil (which I am told is better). (I am a vegetarian)
The regimen doesn't seem to be working and I am on the balance of using prednisolone and verapamil (I need 800 and above for it to work usually). A couple of years ago I got a pulmonary embolism at the beginning of my CH episode. The PE came from nowhere and if it wasn't for my GP (Dr) realising what it was, I wouldn't be writing this. So you see, I worry about all these meds I have taken over the years and I have to admit in some of the darkest times I took way too much sumatriptan.
I was so hoping the D3 would work.
Is there anything else I can do or change to try and get it to work for me?
Thanks,

Ellick.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on May 13th, 2014 at 4:24pm
I'm sure Batch will come along and explain everything for you. You could always send him a PM. In the mean time, you can take much higher doses of D3. Many people take 20,000 a day with an extra loading dose of 50,000 once a week. It has to build up to a certain level in your system to be effective and that can take a few weeks for some. It's important to get your blood tests done though.

Please contact Batch with your specific  symptoms/meds. He'll work it out for you.
Maz.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ellick on May 14th, 2014 at 12:35pm
Thank you Maz,

What kind of blood test am I asking for?

Ellick.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on May 14th, 2014 at 3:37pm
Hi Ellick
It's called, 25(OH)D.  I'd like to bet that your doc will tell you your results are normal, but you will in fact be MILES below the required level to be pain free.. Vitamin D can be toxic if you take too much, but honestly, you need to be just below toxicity level, and you can take it by the truck load before you get there.

I took 20,000 a day for the first few weeks, then I dropped to a maintenance dose of 10,000. If people around me have colds or flu , or if I am ill in any other way I shoot the dose up again for a few weeks, as infections will cause your immune system to gobble up all the D3 and the clusters will sneak through. In truth I am not completely pain free, but the attacks are much less often and very much less intense. When they come, I take 50,000 for a few days, then 20,000, then I go back to 10,000 when the episodes die down. All that and I'm nowhere near toxicity. But the blood tests are important because you need to keep a check on your calcium levels too when taking D3.

You've posted here on the  "medications, treatments and remedies" board on a thread started by Batch called "123 days pain free". It's a very long read, but worth the effort. Some where, if you flick through quickly you will find a chart showing the levels of 25(OH)D. It's pink and green so quite easy to spot.

Again I urge you to send a PM to Batch and ask for his help.  He's a really great guy and has helped so many of us, he deserves a knighthood. He knows all the science stuff that I don't understand, and will work it out specifically for you. He's every ones hero.

Vitamin D3 is good for you even without the CH, because it boosts your immune system. I've been on it for 11 months now. During the winter everyone around me (and I do mean everyone) had coughs, colds, chest infections, flu, you name it. But not me. ;D
Maz.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 14th, 2014 at 7:20pm
Hey Ellick,

You should have my email by now...

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shoot on May 15th, 2014 at 1:55am
If you are having trouble with the D3 working there is a thread here that Batch has been posting in called 'latest D3 news' you should read through. There appears to be some strong evidence for incorporating b12 or b50 into the regimen. Ive been without any attacks for sveral months with D3  but I had one attack sneak in on me a couple of weeks ago with several brutal shadows.  went straight to wal-mart and started adding the B12,havent had nearly as much going on upstairs lately. Also I may have missed it but I dont see Mg in your regimen,the lastest D3 regimen that Ive seen has nearly equal proportions of Mg and Ca,correct me if Im wrong?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ellick on May 15th, 2014 at 10:58am
Maz, Thanks for the information. Think I am beginning to understand it. I have been in touch with Batch and have made some changes and ordered some extra vitamins according to his advice. I'll post how I get on.

Shoot: You are right Magnesium was not in my list. The Calcium was a combination tablet but the magnesium content was small. I have ordered some. Thank you for the information about B vits. I will get some too.

I will read the 74 pages. I did make a start and will try to do it in chunks. Not easy when in cycle and sleep deprived.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on May 17th, 2014 at 8:37am
Well my friends, I am back after almost 3 years off. Here is my mistake. I stopped the "batch" shortly after my headaches went away 3 years ago. (3-4 months) and now I pay the price. I just started back up 9/12 with 10,000iu of D3 and the other supplements. That was not good enough, I guess.

I did the 50,000iu load on the 14th and thought maybe that would be the end of it all. Nope then my headaches went from mid day to night. From 1-2s to 4-5s. I have been taking 20,000iu D3 daily since then. I got hit with a nice 6-7 last night. I will keep on with the "batch" again taking 20,000 everyday and will do another load of 50,000 next week.

Back from a mid afternoon soccer game. Got hit.. 6-7 easy took two monsters and a few swear words to get rid of that one.

How long does it take to get the at home D3 tests back?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on May 24th, 2014 at 2:50am
Update: sitting up at 0230 after aborting my second kip 6-7 with another monster and a ice packs and about 150 push-ups. Something is not working (yet) with this regime.

Nothing has changed, as in the amounts of pills I am taking etc, but yet the last two nights are like the old days (with lower grade hits so I do thank God and Batch for that)

20-25,000iu D3
500mg magnesium
2800 fish oil
Multi vitamin that covers the calcium etc.
B complex which might NOT cover the B50 close enough
Taken with lemonade

Took 1/4 water and 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda prior to bed today

I have done 2 50,000 iu loads in the last two weeks and a 35,000iu load yesterday on top of my daily 20,000

Started the batch on 5/14

Looks like I have the wrong magnesium and b50. Vitamin shoppe here I come.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 24th, 2014 at 9:19pm
Hey TG,

Thanks for the update and sorry you're still having a rough time...  For most of us, the response time depends on the starting serum concentration of 25(OH)D and how fast brain cells metabolize it into 1,25(OH)2D3, calcitriol, the active vitamin D3 metabolite.

The simple calculus is a higher serum concentration of 25(OH)D makes for higher calcitriol production at the cellular level... That assumes there's sufficient magnesium to support the enzymatic processes involved in metabolizing vitamin D3 and vitamin A (retinol) that's essential for the genetic expression we think is responsible for down-regulating/suppressing calcitonin gene related peptide (CGRP) that's present during CH and migraine attacks.

It appears you're on the right track with your supplements so at this point it should be just a matter of time as you build 25(OH)D reserves up to a therapeutic level before you have a favorable response...

The only thing I haven't seen any comments on is oxygen...  Do you have an Rx for home oxygen therapy?  If used properly you should be able to knock down a CH to a pain free state in an average of 7 minutes... Much less if you start the oxygen therapy at the first sign of an approaching attack.

The fact that your CH patterns have changed is actually a good sign... even with the up-tic in frequency of your CH.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on May 25th, 2014 at 3:24am
Batch

Thank you sir for all of your help. I have faith but it is tough when it's 0300 again and I am coming off of a 8-9 worst one yet this cycle.

I do not have an RX for oxygen. I cannot even get into my PCP until end of June for her to tell me I can get a blood test. Yes I am getting a new PCP but am on the waiting list I until July for that.

I am all over the place with the dosage of D3

Not sure what to do

Take care

Todd

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 25th, 2014 at 10:35pm
TG,

Off hand I'd say you might want to consider taking up welding...  at least the oxygen cylinder and regulator part of oxyacetylene welding... 

You'll need a good non-rebreathing oxygen mask and you can pick up a great ClusterO2 Kit at the CH.com store at the right for $23.  These kits have a 3-liter reservoir bag and they last...

Most welding supply outlets will charge you the replacement cost of an oxygen cylinder... usually around $240 for a fully charged M-size (3995 liters)...  After that you drop off the empty and pick up a fully charged cylinder for around $35.  A good O2 welding regulator goes for around $40...

Just don't tell them how you intend to use the oxygen...  If they ask, you already have the rest of the welding system and you're taking up metal sculpting as a new hobby.

If you use the latest procedures for oxygen therapy with hyperventilation on room air...  you'll consume 16 to 24 liters of oxygen for each abort...

Regarding the maverick head banger hits...  The next time you feel one coming on, pop 3 to 4 of the 5,000 IU vitamin D3 liquid softgel capsules between your back teeth and hold the contents between you cheek and gums for 20 minutes without swallowing or drinking any fluids...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on May 28th, 2014 at 5:48am
next update: 5/25 started the right magnesium had a PFD and PFN.
since then I have had pain free days but getting hit 2 times a night mild hits 2-3 but still unable to sleep through them. All take away by monster and ice packs and pushups as needed.

Batch I have tried the biting 2-3 D3s before and during a hit with little or no positive results.

5/27 mailed off  in home D3 test

Today is two weeks into the regime. Taking anywhere from 20k - 30k IU of D3 a day

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on May 30th, 2014 at 8:00am
5/30 Coming off of my worst headache yet. 8-9 maybe 9-10 I made the mistake of trying to go back to sleep this morning and I paid for it. This one will not go away either. 2+ hours into it.

another 50K IU of D3 this morning. This just is not working for me here. Test results should be back next Mon-Tues

Update: back from patient first my first trip to an ER for pain this headache was unrelenting they put me on o2 which knocked the pain down but as soon as I left the pain was back. I got a RX for sumatriptan which has kicked in and I can now sit. Not fun

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 30th, 2014 at 1:38pm
Todd,

Sorry you're having such a rough time... The trip to the ER proves you need an Rx for home oxygen therapy...  That... or take up welding...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on May 30th, 2014 at 3:43pm
Thanks Batch. I just got back from the welding store and my mask should be here tomorrow. For tonight I will use my son's from his asthma nebilizer.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jun 1st, 2014 at 4:08pm
Hello Batch and my fellow clusterheads. Haven't been on in a while so catching up with the thread. :)  BATCH!Bravo sir and congratulations!! [smiley=applause.gif] I am so happy and excited to read about your experiences at the AAN. This was the great news I was waiting for. It is because of your extraordinary efforts that so many of us have been able to conquer this demon. I owe so much to you for getting me through this and giving me my life back. For all the people that are new to the regimen I say, don't give up and battle the beast, the light is at the end of the tunnel. This regimen was the only thing that worked for me after so many drugs and I continue the PF pattern.  Thank you all, Batch for your att. and PF days for all

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Jun 1st, 2014 at 6:08pm
Great news Andy, 4 years pain free here.....hoping it's forever! :)

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jun 1st, 2014 at 7:29pm
Thanks for the kind words, Joe, likewise :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 2nd, 2014 at 1:47pm
Hey Todd,

Good move on the welding supplies...  You need to get your son started on the same anti-inflammatory regimen...  See the following links for details of how vitamin D3 reduces and in most cases eliminates asthma attacks.

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I have my entire family on the anti-inflammatory regimen including my wife who no longer suffers from migraine headaches, my three kids, their spouses and six soon to be seven grand kids...

When you get your home oxygen kit ready, here's the latest procedure and breathing technique you should use to abort your CH.

It's called oxygen therapy with hyperventilation - essentially hyperventilating on room air at forced vital capacity tidal volumes for 30 seconds followed by a lung full of 100% oxygen that's held for another 30 seconds.

Take off the face mask as you'll be breathing directly from the 22 mm nipple on the green "T" manifold or mouthpiece as shown below.  You'll also need to adjust the oxygen regulator so it fills the 3 liter reservoir bag completely in one minute...

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You'll also need to cup the T-manifold exhaust port in the palm of your hand and press the open breathing port to your cheek or chin when not inhaling from it to keep oxygen from escaping and let the reservoir bag fill while you're hyperventilating with room air.

Start by standing to give your diaphragm full range of movement... This is important as standing during this procedure ventilates the lungs more completely.  Lean against a wall if you get dizzy while using this method of oxygen therapy.  If you get too dizzy, sit erect in a chair.

The next step is exhale forcibly through your mouth until if feels like your lungs are empty...  they're not...  Do an abdominal crunch like doing sit-ups and hold the squeeze until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds.

It sounds terrible but it's an important part of this method of aborting a CH with oxygen...  This forced exhalation breathing technique will squeeze out another half to a full liter of exhaled breath.  This last volume of exhaled breath has the highest CO2 concentration.

Then without delay, throw your shoulders back and inhale room air as rapidly and deeply as possible until you can't inhale any more.

Again without any delay, use the forced exhalation technique.  Keep repeating this sequence as fast as possible with room air for 30 seconds.  You should be able to complete 10 of these complete cycles in 30 seconds.

At the end of the 30 seconds exhale forcibly one more time and hold the squeeze for a good 5 seconds...  Then place the ClusterO2 kit "T" manifold breathing port to your lips and inhale a lung full of 100% oxygen and hold it for 30 seconds.  I know it's difficult, but try to relax at this point.  Place the breathing port on the ClusterO2 kit to your cheek or chin with the palm of your hand over the exhalation port to form a gas tight seal in order to inflate the reservoir bag for the next breath of oxygen.

If you're doing this breathing technique properly, you'll start feeling the symptoms of paresthesia and a slight dizziness...  The symptoms of paresthesia include a very slight tingling/prickling of the face, lips, and fingertips.  This is the best indication you've pushed your body into respiratory alkalosis.

At the end of the 30 seconds exhale into the room then repeat the above sequence until the pain is completely gone... 

Be sure to practice this procedure for a few cycles before the cluster beast attacks...

If your start this procedure at the first sign of an approaching CH attack, you should be able to abort the attack in four minutes or less...  If the CH hits while sleeping and is well established or rising, start this procedure as fast as possible.  It will work effectively through pain level 9, (Kip 9), it will just take longer.

The following chart from the pilot study of the demand valve method of oxygen therapy for rapid CH aborts illustrates the increase in abort times as the pain level increases.

Oxygen therapy with hyperventilation is just as fast and effective.  It also uses a lot less oxygen so it works very well with low flow rate oxygen regulators.

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Take care and please keep me posted...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jun 3rd, 2014 at 8:02pm
Got through another Autumn and no CHs  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by japanzaman on Jun 6th, 2014 at 3:13am
Best to remember that the D3 regime is a treatment, not a cure. There are likely other factors than can contribute to clusters that we are still not aware of yet. D3 is just one of the weapons one should be using when dealing with the beast.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jun 6th, 2014 at 2:58pm
Well I thought I was out of the woods. Turns out I might just see the edge. 3 days 2 nights pain free then got hit both a mild hit at work today. Ice probably could have got rid of it but I hit some oxygen when I got home. Still a little linger in the eye. I am on 30k a day of D3. I did an extra 20k when I got home after oxygen. I'll check back in soon. Hopefully pain free next time. Take care everyone.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 3-foot on Jun 7th, 2014 at 8:56pm
I had a physical in January. If I am reading the results correctly (jpg) my 25(oh)d was 10. I was not in cycle at the time, in fact I was near the end of a 3 year remission. I started a new cycle in mid April and just got around to reading this thread. Needless to say I am starting on the vitamins as soon as I can stock them.

This may have been covered, I haven't read all 75 pages yet, but how is this effected by taking Verapamil? I was on a 360 mg dose and tapered off ending last week. I've had a very bad week since and began to taper back up today.
photo_1_.jpg (6 KB | 1 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 8th, 2014 at 2:52am
3-Foot,

No question about it... you were clearly vitamin D3 deficient at the time of that lab test.  If you haven't taken any supplemental vitamin D3 or spent any time in the mid day sun clad in a bathing suit without sun block... your 25(OH)D serum concentration will not have changed.

The following table lists the supplements and doses needed in the anti-inflammatory regimen.

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The following photo illustrates the supplements I take that meet the requirements in the table above.  I buy most of them at Costco...  I buy the super K and vitamin B 50 over the Internet from Amazon.

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The vitamin B 50 is not shown in the photo above.

You're a good candidate for the accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule.  This will build your 25(OH)D serum concentration rapidly but at a measured pace.

Start the anti-inflammatory regimen at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for a couple days just to make sure there's no reaction to any of the supplement then proceed with the loading schedule below.

The following loading schedule totals 700,000 IU of vitamin D3 over a 4-week period.  That should result in a 25(OH)D serum concentration response of 70 ng/mL on top of your starting serum concentration of 25(OH)D at 10 ng/mL. 

At the end of the 4-week loading schedule, try to get another lab test for 25(OH)D.  You should be up around 80 ng/mL at that point which will make 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 a good maintenance dose.

Week 1 - 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3
Week 2 - 25,000 IU/day vitamin D3
Week 3 - 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3
Week 4 - 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3

Be sure to take all the other supplements daily.  Magnesium is the most important cofactor. 

Regarding the verapamil...  The only possible interaction comes from the calcium which can lower verapamil's effectiveness.  The Mature Multi is formulated with 220 mg of calcium so that shouldn't impact verapamil as long as you separate the dosing time for verapamil and Mature Multi by 10 to 12 hours.

I'd take the verapamil in the morning and the entire anti-inflammatory regimen with the evening meal.  This will also improve vitamin D3 absorption.

Please feel free to ask questions...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 8th, 2014 at 3:03am
Hey Todd,

Hang in there...  You've started to respond to the vitamin D3 so it's just a matter of time as you build 25(OH)D reserved to a therapeutic level before going pain free.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jun 9th, 2014 at 9:00pm
tgdurst...hand in there. I worked for me after some time. PF days ahead and good luck!

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jun 12th, 2014 at 10:22am
Quick update.. Mostly pain free. I have headaches that lasted all day that feel like sinus/allergy headaches like i get during the summer. They are not cluster headaches but I do feel the pressure mainly on my left side (or I fear it to be only on the left side) .. so all in all I am good. Still taking 30k D3 for now because that is what seems to work. Test should be back tomorrow or Monday for D3 levels. Thanks to you all.. Take care

Update
Worked out last night got a headache last night. Easy one but could not sleep through it. I know I am close but it's frustrating as hell.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 3-foot on Jun 13th, 2014 at 12:18pm
Batch,

I started my dosage on Monday. I sourced the suppliments locally and getting the exact levels is difficult but I imagine as long as it is in the ball park it will work. Anyway here is my current dosage:

D-3 11000 IU (26000IU wk 1)
OMEGA 3 690 mg EPA 330/DHA 220
Calcium citrate 1000 mg
Magnesium citrate 400 mg
K2 (mk-7) 120 mg
Vitamin A Retinyl Palmitate 10000 IU
ZINC 30 mg
Boron 3mg

Vitamin B 50 Complex:
B1 50 mg
B2 50 mg
B3 50 mg
Folic Acid 400 mg
B12 50 mg
Biotin 50 mg
Pantothenic Acid 50 mg
PABA 50 mg
Choline bitartrate 50 mg
Inositol 50 mg

It is beginning to work, here is a snippet from my headache diary:

5/24-6/07

My hopes of a quick ending to this episode have died. I’ve been battling nightly wake ups three to four a night. For the most part the O2 will keep them to the K6-7 range and abort in 15 to 20 minutes. I ran out of oxygen during an early morning headache on 5/31 and it quickly escalated to a K9 and for the first time ever involved vomiting. Imitrex ended that eventually but it was one of the top two worst ever. The duration was one of the longest I’ve experienced. The O2 supply store is really dropping the ball. I have no other options unfortunately. On 6/1 the oxygen was replaced but only E tanks were available, which means 8 liters max. I have been burning through it at a very quick pace. I had to go get it myself.

6/6/14 Friday

I finally got the M tank back and can use the full 15 liter flow. I stopped the Verapamil, tapering down over the week of 5/25 to 6/4. I can’t handle the side effects any longer. We celebrated our 10 year anniversary today with dinner and drinks. The drinks were a mistake. I burned through an E tank at the hotel in one night.

6/8/14 Sunday

I’ve been reading about the D3 anti-inflammatory regimen and after reviewing my blood work from January 28 I fit the pattern perfectly.  I began today with 10,000IU of D3 and a dose of Omega 3 that we had on hand. I don’t have the co-factor supplements yet. I will be picking them up tomorrow. Nightly hits continue in the K7 range and every few hours. I have had pain free days for most of the cycle, although lately shadows are lingering in the morning until lunch time.

6/9/14 Monday Day 1

I started a full 10k dose of D3 today with the co-factors. I hope to see results sooner rather than later. I had a good massage and a hot shower which helped me feel great for the rest of the day. Nothing else has changed. I fear going to sleep but I fall asleep from exhaustion easily.

6/10/14 Tuesday Day 2

Last night the hits continued their normal pattern of every few hours but the pain level dropped a bit to K5-6 instead of K6-7. I waste little time in getting to the oxygen mask. The aborts seemed to come sooner although it could be wishful thinking. I am pain free this morning and afternoon, no shadows at all. 

With no side effects from the first full dose I upped to the loading dose of 50k IU D3 with the full set of co-factors remaining at the normal levels. I am dosing at lunch, my heaviest and most fat containing meal. Urine is bright yellow as I expected and a bit cloudy.  One week of 50k and I will begin to taper back to 10k by the end of week four.

6/11/14 Wednesday Day 3

Last night’s first wake up was at 3:50 am and was a bit milder than normal (K5), after six hours of sleep. A second came about two hours later and was at the usual (K7). No shadows at all today.

6/12/14 Thursday Day 4

I had only one wake up over night at 5 am and at a K5 level. That is a 23 hour pain free stretch. A slight shadow followed until I had my coffee the rest of the day has been pain free so far.

6/13/14 Friday Day 5

The regimen is working. I got a full night sleep. The alarm clock woke me up at 5:45 am and by 6 am I had a K1 shadow which I eventually eliminated with a hit of oxygen. Since then the day has been pain free as usual.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Jun 13th, 2014 at 2:38pm
Hi Batch and All,
Still continue to be pf, I need to understand more about the PTH levels and its effects.

           25(OH)D Test Results so far:

Date:      (nmol/L)       (ng/ml)      PTH (pmol/L)
Sept 25      86                34.4
Oct 11      170                68
Nov 8        373             149.2
Dec 18      155              62          3.1
Mar 18      184               73.6       3.7
Jun 11       182              72.8       3.7

I need to research about the PTH.  Other than that, I seem to be on track.
Thanks as always Batch :)



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 13th, 2014 at 7:12pm
Hey Sue,

Great news, great lab results and a great question.  In order to better understand the relationship between vitamin D3 metabolism and PTH you also need lab tests for serum calcium as you'll see below.

The pharmacokinetics of vitmamin D3 (what the body does to vitamin D3) is fascinating.  Once vitamin D3 is metabolized to 25(OH)D in the liver, the 25(OH)D travels along two separate paths of metabolism.

In the first path, called the endocrine path, 25(OH)D is further metabolized to 1,25(OH)3D3 by the kidneys.  This path is tightly controlled by calcium homeostasis, the mechanism that controls serum calcium concentrations to maintain it in a very narrow range.

This is also where the parathyroids and their hormone, PTH, come into play.  If the serum calcium concentration is near the low end of the normal reference range or below, the parathyroids sense this condition and increase production of PTH. 

The increased serum concentration of PTH signals the kidneys to increase the rate of metabolism of 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal form of vitamin D3. The increased serum concentration of 1,25(OH)2D3 pulls more calcium from the gut and transports it into blood serum to increase its serum concentration.

If the serum calcium concentration is near the upper end of its normal reference range, the parathyroids sense this condition and down-regulate or suppress production of PTH.  This slows metabolism of 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D3 in the kidneys so less calcium is pulled from the gut.

Again, the above discussion covers the endocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism and how it sustains calcium homeostasis  along with maintenance of bone mineral density.  From a life sustaining standpoint, this is the most important path... 

Not enough vitamin D3 means insufficient 25(OH)D and that results in serum calcium concentrations dropping below the normal reference range...  When that happens... bone mineral density suffers, nerve cells don't fire properly, calcium channels break down and the wheels come off... In other words, health declines rapidly...

The second path of vitamin D3 metabolism gets really exciting.  This is called the autocrine or autocrine/exocrine path that results in genetic expression...

In the autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism, the 25(OH)D produced by the liver is metabolized extrarenal (outside the kidneys) at the cellular, nuclear and genetic level throughout the body. 

For CH'ers, when 25(OH)D is metabolized in nerve cells within the trigeminal ganglion, this is where the magic occurs resulting in a cessation or reduction of CH symptoms.

The following graphic illustrates the two paths of vitamin D3 metabolism.  As you can see roughly 20% of the 25(OH)D produced in the liver travels along the endocrine path and 80% along the autocrine path.

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In the autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism, 25(OH)D enters the cell wall where the the same enzyme, 1-α hydroxylase, that adds another hydroxyl ion [OH]- at the 1st position on the vitamin D3 molecule in the kidneys, does the same thing within the cell. 

As a side note, the 1-α hydroxylase enzyme requires magnesium and some of the other vitamin D3 cofactors to function properly.

Within the cell nucleus at the genetic level, 1,25(OH)2D3 combines with retinol (vitamin A) to form a 2-molecule chain polymer, (dimer), that attaches to a vitamin D receptor (VDR) at one end on one part of the gene and a retinoid X receptor (RXR) at the other end on another part of that gene.  When this happens, the cell's genetic library of instructions are opened and the cell begins to follow these instructions...

The following graphic illustrates bonding of the vitamin D3-vitamin A dimer to a gene at a vitamin D response element (VDRE).  This is a DNA sequence that is found in the promoter region of vitamin D regulated genes...

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The leading theory on the role of vitamin D3 in preventing cluster and migraine headaches deals with the autocrine path of vitamin D3 metabolism.  This is where 1,25(OH)2D3 and vitamin A (retinol) signal the nerve cell to down-regulate calcitonin gene-regulated peptide (CGRP).   CGRP has been found elevated during the pain phase of CH and migraines.

Molecular biologists and geneticists are just starting to peal back the onion skin layers when it comes to the role of vitamin D regulated genes... and the extent vitamin D3 plays in our overall health.

A 2010 study identified 2776 genomic positions occupied by the VDR and 229 genes with significant changes in expression in response to vitamin D...  Cluster headache is only one of these...

Hope this helps answer the mail...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 13th, 2014 at 9:09pm
3-Foot,

Thank you for the wonderful news and detailed feedback.  It does sound like you are having a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Based on your response so far, I think it's safe to say your CH symptoms will continue to diminish until you're completely pain free.

The beer and or wine test will work once you've been pain free for a week or two...  Until then, it's the temporary spikes in the serum concentration of 25(OH)D that follow each dose of vitamin D3 that are preventing your CH... 

When you've reached a therapeutic serum concentration of 25(OH)D around 80 ng/mL, that should be at the end of the 4th week on the accelerated dosing schedule, you should be home free... 

After that, a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus the rest of this regimen year-round will keep you PF...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jun 17th, 2014 at 3:16pm
Update I got my test results back from my May 27th test 53 ng/mL. That was after 3 weeks of accelerated D3intake. It has been 3 weeks since. I am pretty pain free right now more allergies headaches than anything but still felt on my cluster side more. This is/ would be close to end of cycle for me. I am going to lower my dose of D3 down to 15Iu a day until after I get back from AK and WA next week and a half and send in another test. If I am not back before that I wish you all well and pray for you all.

Todd

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Marc Everette on Jun 17th, 2014 at 7:00pm
Hello All,

Wanted to provide an update. I started the D3 regimine on May 5th. I loaded up with the 50k IUs and took 20k IU per day. Headaches started to go away after a few days. Was PF within 1 week. This  was in conjunction with verapamil and a prednisone taper. I've taken the verapmil and prednisone before however it's never knocked out the headaches this fast. Unfortunately, i didn't get a chance to measure my D3 levels ahead of starting. I stayed at 20k IUs for 6 weeks then reread this string and realized i should have backed off. I dropped down to 10k IUs per day this past Sunday. I also had blood work done last week and requested my VD level be tested. I'll provide that once I have it. This has been truly awesome. Batch keep up the good work. I also plan to keep researching and checking in to see how others are doing.

Batch wrote on May 6th, 2014 at 3:29pm:
Hey Marc,

Welcome aboard CH.com... I wouldn't worry too much about taking the 50,000 IU vitamin D3 loading dose once a week for two weeks on top of a daily intake of 20,000 IU vitamin D3.  The 4-week vitamin D3 loading schedule adds up to a total of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3, or a little over an average of 21,000 IU/day.

The attached study reports the results of a single oral dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 with no adverse effects...  I've two other studies where 500,000 IU vitamin D3 was given in a single oral dose...  Again... no problems.

Take care and please keep us posted on your progress with the anti-inflammatory regimen.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:33pm
Hey Todd,

Thanks for the update...  It sounds like you've got a good handle on your CH... 

As a side note... How's the fishing?  I'll be flying up to Juneau with a beaver hop out to Pelican, AK in two weeks...

Please keep us posted...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:43pm
Marc,

Thanks for the wonderful update... I love it when the vitamin D3 loading schedule works that fast...

Your 25(OH)D lab results may come back a little above the target serum concentration at 80 ng/mL, but that shouldn't be a worry since you dropped the dose to 10,000 IU/day.

One last note...  It's best to stay on this regimen year-round...  The other health benefits are hard to ignore and the next CH cycle will be a non-event.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jun 18th, 2014 at 3:28pm
Batch, is there an end to your knowledge, it seems not.
I always enjoy reading your posts and taking in the knowledge, especially when it points towards living a longer and healthier life.
I haven't had a CH for a long time now, June is usually my worst month and so far...... nothing, not even a shadow. Am sticking to the D3 regimen religiously. 10000iu D3 daily and when i remember, i take a loading dose of 50000 weekly as well as everything else in the regimen.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
:) :) :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 20th, 2014 at 1:16am
Theirry,

Thank you for the wonderful update and kind words.  We've learned a lot about preventing CH with the anti-inflammatory regimen yet there remains a lot more we don't really know.

Until we get some real science going with molecular biologists at the helm of a formal gold standard RCT on this regimen, we'll still be in the dark over a confirmed mechanism of action.  Even more importantly, we will not have the medical evidence needed to add this regimen to the standards of care recommended treatments for CH...  and migraine.

Lots to do...  Until then we'll just keep plugging away helping as many CH'ers as possible discover the benefits of vitamin D3 and the rest of the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing their CH.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 3-foot on Jun 23rd, 2014 at 9:54pm

Batch wrote on Jun 13th, 2014 at 9:09pm:
3-Foot,

Thank you for the wonderful news and detailed feedback.  It does sound like you are having a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Based on your response so far, I think it's safe to say your CH symptoms will continue to diminish until you're completely pain free.

The beer and or wine test will work once you've been pain free for a week or two...  Until then, it's the temporary spikes in the serum concentration of 25(OH)D that follow each dose of vitamin D3 that are preventing your CH... 

When you've reached a therapeutic serum concentration of 25(OH)D around 80 ng/mL, that should be at the end of the 4th week on the accelerated dosing schedule, you should be home free... 

After that, a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus the rest of this regimen year-round will keep you PF...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


It's Monday night and I've been 100% pain free since Wednesday Morning. I am at the beginning of Week 3 on the dosage schedule as of today, so I'm taking 15k today. After 10 weeks of the worst cycle I've experienced in my 20 years of battling, it feels pretty F*&%ing great.

Thank You!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 24th, 2014 at 1:47pm
3-Foot,

Thanks for the update and great news...  I know the feeling.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jun 25th, 2014 at 9:04pm
Batch, I have a quick question...is there a difference between what reads the normal "Omega-3 fish oil" and what reads "Ester-Omega fish oil"? Thanks for your attention.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jun 25th, 2014 at 9:07pm
3-foot, Theirry...I am so happy to read on your successes! I hope you remain pain-free forever :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Miguel Amaral on Jun 26th, 2014 at 6:13pm
Hi  everyone ,

Just wondering if someone has a good reference of an online safe place to order the vitamins ?

I can't buy them localy here in Portugal so would have to go online .
I checked amazon UK and there are several offers there so If anyone already ordered I would be a bit more confident.....

Thanks for the help !

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 26th, 2014 at 8:00pm
Andy,

One of the best answers to your question can be found at the following link. 

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There's a lot of marketing hype over which type of Omega-3 fatty acids is best...  and the leading discriminating factor is bio-availability... followed by after taste...

As the above article states, "any claim of superiority may be premature."

In the mean time I look for two things when I buy supplements like the Omega-3 fatty acids...  The first is a USP logo indicating the product has been tested by an independent organization for purity, strength, and assays for any heavy metals...

The second thing I look for after the USP logo is bang for the buck...  So far Nature Made remains at the top of my list...

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 26th, 2014 at 8:03pm
Olá Miguel,

Amazon and iHerb appear to be your best sources of Internet suppliers of these supplements...

Hope this helps.

Take care, até a vista, and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jun 27th, 2014 at 4:19pm
Batch, that was a very interesting and super helpful link. I thank you, sir for clearing that up for me.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jun 28th, 2014 at 2:22am
Hi Miguel, I hope you are well. Like you, I am in Europe (Ireland). I have been successfully taking the Batch regimen for over a year now. I have found that the vitamins are very expensive here so I buy everything from iherb.com       There is a 4 US dollars postage option for packets under 4 pounds weight, also this option is less likely to get stopped by customs (when they catch a packet, they sometimes ad custom taxes that can be quite substantial). If i need to order more than 4 pounds weight worth of stuff i just put in  2 orders. iherb is cheap and reliable.
This is what i buy from iherb:

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D3: 1 softgel/day or more when taking a loading dose

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This vitamin A tablet is 5000iu per tablet, so i take half tablet/day.


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Calcium 2 capsules/day

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Magnesium: 2 tablets/day

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B + C complex: 1 tablet/day

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Zinc: 1 tablet/day

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Fish oil: 2 softgels/day

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Boron: 1 capsule/day


I get the K2 that Batch advises to take at amazon.co.uk

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K2: 1 softgel/day

I try to take all of the above with the biggest meal of the day.


It is possible to reduce the amount of tablets by taking a multi vitamin tablet but i haven't found one that can match the regimen requirements. Batch recommends a multi vitamin from Costco, however that same multi vitamin on amazon.co.uk does not contain the same amounts of the vitamin and other supplements than the one that can be bought at Costco in the US, so i just take the vitamins and other supplemments seperately as per the list above.

All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jun 28th, 2014 at 3:44am
Hi Batch, I hope you are well.
Things have changed a bit for me over the last week.
Last weekend I went to a 3 days outdoor music festival, this was in the countryside and I spent 3 days in the green grass and forest.
Last monday I started a job that entails spending 11 hours a day in a large field surrounded by forest. (I am working on the making of a film as a set construction manager). I will be in this location for the next 10 weeks. My team and I are building a replica of the town of Dawson, Canada, year 1890.
Since wednesday this week, I have been feeling shadows at night and this morning I woke up with a quite substantial shadow. My nose also feels blocked when i wake in the morning and my girlfriend has also noticed that I snore a bit, which i don't usually do.
Prior to this week, i have not been getting any symptoms of CH at all for a long time.
I am guessing that the return of shadows is due to the presence of pollens and allergens in and around the area where i work. I have a strong feeling that if i don't do something about this straight away, it will develop into a full blown CH cycle (it has happened before in similar circumstances). I really can' t afford to go through this while I am working on a big project like this one. It is hard work, for long days and I need all the sleep I can get at night as well as the need to be fully present while at work with the ability to concentrate.

Would it be right to up my daily D3 intake from 10000iu to 20000iu as well as a weekly loading dose of 50000?
Or i could take 25000iu or 30000iu D3 every day?
I'd love your opinion on this if you don't mind.

Take care and all the best to you and yours :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Miguel Amaral on Jun 28th, 2014 at 7:39am
Thanks Batch & thierry ,

I will follow your advice and order from Iherb ....
One question more, what expiration date do these vitamins normally have ? 
I mean, for example, if I order 360 softgels of D3 they should bring a large expiration range, right ?

Thank you so much for yr help ,
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jun 28th, 2014 at 12:43pm
Miguel, the expiration for the supplements on iherb is actually written on their page for the item.

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look on that page in the section on the right hand side called "specifications", you can read the expiration date there. It is december 2016.
Happy days

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jun 29th, 2014 at 7:49am
Miguel, i just saw on iherb that they do free postage to portugal for packets under 4 pounds weight with international airmail option until and including tomorrow. get your order (s) in.  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Miguel Amaral on Jun 29th, 2014 at 2:58pm
Thanks Thierry ,
just finished placing my order ....

have the blood test scheduled for next Friday and all should be ready to start the regimen on the 2nd week July as soon as the package from Iherb arrives ....
Will share my ongoing experience here later on .....
meanwhile I'm continuing my acupuncture, that in my case has helped me going throw my cycles .....

Thanks for all the help !!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jun 29th, 2014 at 3:38pm
Hi Miguel, that's great. I also placed an order with i herb, they do free postage to ireland too until tomorrow.
Batch's D3 regimen works for 80% of people who take it. If you need any info, he is the man to talk to. He has helped so many people here, he is a mine of knowledge and seems to always be willing to help and answer questions.
Stick with the regimen, take high doses of D3 at the start to build it up in your body. maybe 20000 iu/day for a week or 2 as well as a weekly loading dose of 50000iu. Then after 2 weeks, reduce the D3 to 10000iu/day as well as a weekly loading dose of 50000iu.
Good luck with it. I hope you'll quickly experience relief. Glad to know that accupuncture works for you, any relief from the beast is good.
D3 is good for many many ailments and will also boost your immune system. Take a look at the vitamin d wiki (link below) and be amazed by the virtues of vitamin D.

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All the best.
:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 29th, 2014 at 9:31pm
Hey Thierry,

The amount of vitamin D3 we need to prevent CH can and will vary depending on other sources of inflammation and other competing consumers of 25(OH)D.  In other words, a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 may be insufficient to maintain a therapeutic level of 25(OH)D if you've had colds, flu, an allergic reaction... An allergic reaction could be sub-clinical, i.e., no apparent symptoms.

Upping your vitamin D3 intake to 20,000 IU/day for a few weeks coupled with a weekly loading dose of 50,000 IU vitamin D3 should do the trick.  Make sure you're taking at least 400 mg/day magnesium...

When the CH symptoms have cleared completely for a couple weeks, drop back to a new maintenance dose of 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jun 30th, 2014 at 2:16am
Hi Batch, thanks for your helpful reply. I have taken 50000iu D3 for the last 2 days and was shadows free last night. I will do as you say and take 20000iu/day until all symptoms disapear. Will keep you posted.
Thanks Batch
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Marc Everette on Jun 30th, 2014 at 10:01pm
Hi Batch,

Wanted to provide another update and ask a few questions if you don’t mind.

I got the results from my 25 (OH) D test and after 6 weeks of taking 20000 IUs, plus the 50000 loading dose, my level was 84. The lady that gave me the number just said 84 so I’m assuming it was 84 ng/mL. I was expecting it to be much higher after taking 20000 for 6 weeks. I’ve since dropped to 10000 IUs per day and I haven’t had any CHs but it does feel like I get a baby shadow everyone now and again. That could be my mind playing tricks on me as I’m hesitant to take the O2 tanks back that I’m renting. That said…

1. Would you consider 84 ng/mL low after taking the loading dose and 20000 IUs per day for 6 weeks? Keep in mind I didn’t drop the dosage until after the blood work.

2. Could my body have been that depleted of D3 or I possibly just generate less than most people?

3. Should I consider 15000 of D3 as my maintenance dose?

I’m planning to get tested again now that I’ve dropped to 10000 IUs per week.

Here is the regimen I’m on:

Vitamin D3 = 10,000IU
Omega 3 Fish Oil = 1,500mg
Calcium = 200mg
Magnesium = 350mg
Vitamin K2 = 100 MCG
Vitamin A = 5,000 IU
Vitamin B-50 = 1 tablet
Zinc = 25mg
Boron = 2mg

I’m also taking 240 mg of Verapamil each day. Trying to determine if I can drop the verapamil. Anyway, a couple of other questions:

1. Is it okay to take the verapamil with the regimen? I prefer to take all my pills at once in the morning
2. Can Krill be substituted for the fish oil?
3. Any suggested changes to the regimen?
4. I only get CH once per year, hoping I’m past the cycle. I know you said continue with the regimen but should I ever lay off or detox? I want this to keep working the next time the beast comes.

I look forward to receiving your response and thanks again for the work you are doing for CH sufferers.


Batch wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 8:43pm:
Marc,

Thanks for the wonderful update... I love it when the vitamin D3 loading schedule works that fast...

Your 25(OH)D lab results may come back a little above the target serum concentration at 80 ng/mL, but that shouldn't be a worry since you dropped the dose to 10,000 IU/day.

One last note...  It's best to stay on this regimen year-round...  The other health benefits are hard to ignore and the next CH cycle will be a non-event.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jun 30th, 2014 at 10:03pm
Hey Batch,

Just wanted to give you an update and ask for further advice. 

My current regimen consists of:

Omega-3 Fish Oil - 2000 mg
D3 - 15,000 IU (dissolved before bedtime)
Magnesium Citrate - 400 mg
Centrum Silver for Men
Zinc Oxide - 10 mg
K2 Complex
B-50 Complex (90-day regimen)
Vitamin C - 1000 mg 4 times per day

I also used to take Calcium Citrate 500 mg but when my clusters weren't responding to the regimen, you advised me to increase my Magnesium Citrate to 600 mg and told me to stop taking the Calcium Citrate for awhile. 

My cycle ended at the end of May and I've been pretty much pain-free since then although I've been getting some shadows lately. 

Would you recommend that I add Calcium Citrate (maybe 250 mg?) back into my regimen?  I've already decreased my Magnesium Citrate intake back to 400 mg.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 30th, 2014 at 11:09pm
Hey Slacker,

Thanks for the update.  15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 should result in an average 25(OH)D response around 100 ng/mL.  That should be sufficient to prevent any CH symptoms unless there are competing consumers of 25(OH)D...

A lab test for 25(OH)D would be helpful in determining the optimum vitamin D3 dose at this point.  Call your PCP and see if he can schedule a lab test for you.

The Centrum Silver you're taking should have around 220 mg calcium per serving.  Check the label.  If this is correct, you're getting adequate supplemental calcium.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jun 30th, 2014 at 11:42pm
Batch,

The Centrum Silver contains 210 mg of Calcium so I'm assuming that's fine. 

My last 25(OH)D test was on 4/15 which came out to 111.0 ng/ML.  I'll be taking another test shortly and will post the results.

As for the B-50 complex, after the 90 days is up, in which situation would you recommend another 90-day regimen?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 2nd, 2014 at 3:48pm
Hey Slacker,

Thanks for the update.  At this point, the 3-month course of vitamin B 50 is a single shot deal...  I've finished my 3-month course of vitamin B 50 as well.  I take the Kirkland brand Mature Multi.  It contains all the B vitamins at RDA which should be sufficient to prevent any deficiencies. 

When you finish your Centrum Silver, you might want to investigate an alternative mature multivitamin-mineral formulation that also contains the B vitamins.

Thanks again for the update and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jul 2nd, 2014 at 3:57pm
Gotcha.  Is this the Kirkland multivitamin you're recommending?

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 3rd, 2014 at 8:46am
Hi slacker,
          yes that's the KirKland multi that batch recommended,  ive swapped to that as well.

cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jul 3rd, 2014 at 1:43pm
Got it.  Thank you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jul 4th, 2014 at 6:45pm
I'm sorry guys, I think I missed something...what is this B-50 complex thingy?  Happy 4th, by the way.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jul 4th, 2014 at 8:05pm

TheAndyT wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 6:45pm:
I'm sorry guys, I think I missed something...what is this B-50 complex thingy?  Happy 4th, by the way.

-Andy


Here was Batch's response to me re: B-50:


Batch wrote on Apr 18th, 2014 at 1:47am:
Hey Slacker,

You're not alone.  I know what you're going through... It's happened to me and there are others reporting a similar recurrence of their CH over the last month or so...

I suspect the culprit is a high pollen count that's triggered an allergic response that's consuming the active vitamin D3 metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3 at rates that leave too little to prevent CH.

I had a few days of burn through hits in mid March when the Alder pollen was coating my pickup like someone had dusted it with a bag of Portland cement.  The burn through hits started again in early April when the Maple pollen was turning my pickup yellow...

I've tried a few things that appear to have been effective in getting me back to a PF state...  The first is increasing the magnesium intake to 600 to 800 mg/day.  Magnesium is essential in the enzymatic processes that metabolize 25(OH)D to the active metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3. 

I also started the three month course of vitamin B 50 complex that Dr. Stasha Gominak suggests to her headache patients taking a similar vitamin D3 regimen. 

She's been prescribing this regimen for over six years and has the clinical data to back it up...  She added vitamin B 50 when some of her patients reported the basic regimen wasn't as effective as it had been in the past.  It worked...

B 50 is essentially a formulation of 50 mg each of the seven B vitamins and it should take care of any vitamin B deficiencies. 

Along with the B 50, I also started taking 1000 mg vitamin C two to three times a day every two hours.  The half life of vitamin C is 30 minutes after reaching Cmax.

Finally, I started popping 3 to 5 of the 5,000 IU vitamin D3 liquid soft gel capsules between my back teeth and holding the contents between my cheek and gums and kept it there for 20 minutes without swallowing.  I did this prior to bed at night as most of my burn through hits were coming while sleeping...

It takes a couple days for the 25(OH)D to build, but the vitamin D3 serum concentration goes up rapidly as it bypasses the lower GI tract and passes directly into the bloodstream through the cheek and gums.

The net effect was very short aborts when using oxygen therapy with hyperventilation and a pain free response by the second to third day after starting this method of taking vitamin D3.

You should be able to improve the effectiveness of your oxygen therapy and shorten the abort times by hyperventilating with room air for 30 seconds then inhaling a lungful of oxygen and holding it for 30 seconds...  Repeating this 4 to 5 times should be sufficient to abort most of your CH...

The important thing is the breathing technique while hyperventilating...  This breathing technique is called hyperventilating at forced vital capacity tidal volumes... 

You do this by standing with your jaw dropped like saying the work "Haw." Standing gives your diaphragm full range of motion and this increases lung ventilation.

Start this breathing technique by exhaling forcibly until it feels like your lungs are empty... they're not.  At that point do an abdominal crunch like doing situps and hold the squeeze it until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds...  then through your shoulders back, head up and chest out and inhale rapidly using your diaphragm.

You should be doing 10 complete respiration cycles every 30 seconds while hyperventilating with room air...  Keep repeating this sequence until the pain stops completely.

If you're doing this properly, you should feel the symptoms of paresthesia when you inhale the 100% oxygen...  A very slight tingling/prickling of the face, lips, fingertips and chest area.  These sensations will build for 10 to 15 seconds after inhaling and holding the oxygen then dissipate until they're almost gone after 30 seconds when your restart the complete sequence again.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jul 4th, 2014 at 8:33pm
Pete, you always...and I repeat ALWAYS amaze me with your descriptive writings....so I have one question for you after reading all that....what kind of pickup do you drive? :D

Happy 4th to you and Joyce, pal. ;)
Your friend,
-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jul 5th, 2014 at 9:21pm
Slacker, thank you. Okay, so what are the daily doses for the B50 and for how long etc...    Which one do you recommend to buy?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 5th, 2014 at 9:34pm
Gregg,

It's a 2000 S10 Stepside...

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I've driven Fords all my life, but got in a pinch and couldn't find a good used F-150 to my liking while the motor in my '91 SuperCoupe was going through a Stage 2 rebuild.  The rebuild included ported heads, high-performance pistons with ceramic piston head coatings, a larger blower, taller cams and a larger intercooler...  The engine builder offered me a very good deal on the S10... so I took it.

Hope you're enjoying a wonderful 4th of July weekend...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 10th, 2014 at 2:10am
well, here we go,
weened off verapamil 2 months ago
am on the full regime, and also recently had a couple of months on the vit b, even though I was mid range on my blood test.  last vit d test,  220 nmol after I titrated up because of heavy shadows,(January)  ( shadows disappeared after 2 weeks then) between then and now, id get occasional shadows, and have had two out of the blue kip5 with no lead up !!  gone as quick as they came !!!
So,  2 weeks ago, felt something happening, silly little tingles, like electric shocks, followed by alternating side shadows,  then a week of just feeling flushed and waking up with a heavy shadow that was quelled with a double shot coffee ( yum).  currently, still shadowing, I slam a cold redbull down every other day which still works great.
Conclusion...  the beast has been lurking now for 3 weeks, previously, i'de get two weeks of the above, then Wammo a full on cycle !   im still nervous about everything, But, I wont speak to soon,  I think ( hoping)  that, because of the vit d regime, its holding it at bay !!!
Its been 3 months since I had bloods done, but im pretty confident I'd still be hovering around 200-210 nmol,  so im going to up my vit d to 20,000 for a week and see if that nails the shadows, then go straight in for another blood test.
gee, I might not be one of those that get totally pain free on the regime, but if im right and this cycle runs its course as it is now,  I'll be one very happy camper !!!
  " I hear him a knocking,  But this time ive changed the lock and I'm bolting the door shut " LOL
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 10th, 2014 at 7:51pm
Colin,

A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 200 to 220 nmol/L may not be sufficient to prevent CH under some circumstances...  Any underlying condition that activates your immune systhem or that causes inflammation can suck up 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3 as well as the enzymes responsible for vitamin D3 metabolism... 

Make sure you're getting at least 400 mg/day magnesium and don't be afraid to up your maintenance dose of vitamin D3...  Toss in a 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 and watch what happens to the shadows... They should go away...  That will be the best indication your vitamin D3 maintenance dose was too low.

Tale care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 11th, 2014 at 1:58am
thanks for your reply batch,  yes Im definitely getting 400 mg of magnesium and the rest of the other co-factors.
I did read from someone else here that they were having to take more than the 10,000 per day to maintain there levels at a pain free state.
so im lifting my d3 to 20,000 per day for a week, started last nite, but I might load up with 50,000 tonight.
if the shadows clear by weeks end, i'll get bloods done immediately to see where my level has to be.
ive kept my levels as best I can at around 190-220, but maybe I have to be slightly higher, or somethings drained my levels since my last test 3 months ago.
Im happy to sit at a higher level if that's whats required to keep me pain free, as long as my calcium level/ score sits in the right range.
I'll keep you informed with my results
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jul 11th, 2014 at 2:18am
Hi Colin, I recently had a return of shadows and even had a KIP7 one night which woke me up, i had to take a Zomig as the oxygen only reduced the pain a little bit. I then took 50000iu D3 for 2 days, then 40000 for a further 2 days (along with the rest of the regimen) and I am now taking 20000iu D3 daily and will continue to do so for another week or so. The beast and the shadows went away after taking the 50000 and 40000 iu D3. Maybe that would work for you too, I hope so.
All the best
:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 11th, 2014 at 7:44pm
Hi Thierry,
                yes, that's what im doing as well now. I took 20,000 the first nite, then 50,000 last nite, the shadows seem to have eased. I'll take 20,000 for the next week, then go in and get bloods done.
An interesting point that batch bought up was that some may need a higher d3 count to stay pain free, and some may need a higher maintenance dose than 10,000 daily to remain pain free. Im sure I read somewhere here that someone was taking a maintenance dose of 20,000.
when I received my blood test in febuary ( 230 nmol ) after I titrated up from 200 nmol because of shadows in January, I actually got a bit paranoid about it being so high after shadows disappeared, so I stopped taking it for 4 or 5 days to drop my level. Maybe 230 nmol is where I need to be !.   I t was interesting that it only took one week of taking 20,000 per day and a one of 50,000 loading, to go from 200 nmol to 230 nmol.  a simple test in a week will give me a better idea.
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jul 12th, 2014 at 12:59pm

Batch wrote on Jul 2nd, 2014 at 3:48pm:
Hey Slacker,

Thanks for the update.  At this point, the 3-month course of vitamin B 50 is a single shot deal...  I've finished my 3-month course of vitamin B 50 as well.  I take the Kirkland brand Mature Multi.  It contains all the B vitamins at RDA which should be sufficient to prevent any deficiencies. 

When you finish your Centrum Silver, you might want to investigate an alternative mature multivitamin-mineral formulation that also contains the B vitamins.

Thanks again for the update and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Hey Batch,

I was comparing the contents in the Kirkland Mature Multi and the Centrum Silver for Men.  Is there a difference in the B vitamin contents between the two?  I didn't notice a difference.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 12th, 2014 at 1:17pm
Slacker,

Good question...  The formulations are roughly the same WRT the B vitamins...  My rationale for selecting the Mature Multi was primarily to pick up as many of the vitamin D3 cofactors as possible in a single capsule and cost.

The Kirkland Mature Multi provides 400 tablets at roughly half the price of 250 tablets of Centrum Silver for Men +50.

I still add 400 mg/day magnesium and the Super K with K2 complex.

Hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jul 12th, 2014 at 1:19pm

Batch wrote on Jul 12th, 2014 at 1:17pm:
Slacker,

Good question...  The formulations are roughly the same WRT the B vitamins...  My rationale for selecting the Mature Multi was primarily to pick up as many of the vitamin D3 cofactors as possible in a single capsule and cost.

The Kirkland Mature Multi costs roughly half as much as the Centrum Silver for Men +50.

I still add 400 mg/day magnesium and the Super K with K2 complex.

Hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Thanks Batch.

I was asking because I'm about to finish my 90-day B-50 regimen and have a ton of Centrum Silver left. So I was wondering if it would be worth it to ditch the Centrum and buy some of the Kirkland Mature Multi.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 12th, 2014 at 1:23pm
There's nothing wrong with the Centrum Silver...  I took it for years...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Jul 12th, 2014 at 2:15pm
Gotcha. Thanks Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by haste25 on Jul 13th, 2014 at 2:28pm
Hello again. I am an episodic sufferer whose cycles come every two summers like clockwork and last for 4-6 weeks. I have had two cycles in my lifetime (31 years old) and am now in my third. During the last cycle, I discovered the anti-inflammatory regimen and had considerable success with ending my cycle early. Sadly, I stopped the regimen after a few PF months, and now the beast is back this summer.

I have been back on the D3 regimen for three weeks (the past three days I have added the Vitamin K, Vitamin A, B-50, and added Magnesium) with some considerable results. I am almost always PF unless I drink alcohol, which is my main and seemingly only trigger.

Unfortunately, I must admit that I live a lifestyle in which alcohol is prevalent, and I don't always abstain. Thus, some pretty bad KIP 8-10s on those nights, usually 15 minutes after consuming my last drink and not during the drinking itself.

Anyways, I have not had tests done yet but will do so soon. But I am pretty sure I am D3 deficient, even though I live in a sunny climate and spend a good amount of time outside.

This past week I had a bad summer cold/sinusitis as well, and so I upped my D3 to anywhere between 20,000 and 40,000 ius a day, depending on how hard I was shadowing.   

My question is pretty simple, and I apologize if it has been answered somewhere already. Why would my body get D3 deficient with such precise timing? That is, why do I get D3 deficient every two summers EXACTLY?

I can't thank you enough, Batch, for all of your persistent research efforts and clarifying explanations, which have helped me and many people like me.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 13th, 2014 at 10:02pm
Haste,

Thanks for the update and good question.  I'm sorry you missed my posts suggesting that episodic CH'ers are far better off staying on this regimen year round... 

Chronic CH'ers don't really have any choice...  a week to 10 days without vitamin D3 and the beast is back... 

Episodic CH'ers are a slightly different story...  It is possible to come off the anti-inflammatory regimen when the cycle has ended as long as their cycles are relatively well established...  and they restart this regimen with loading doses at least a month prior to the usual start date. 

It's important to remember the half-life of 25(OH)D is around two weeks...  If your 25(OH)D serum concentration was around 80 ng/mL when you stopped taking the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... it would be at 40 ng/mL two weeks later... and down around 20 ng/mL a month after stopping the vitamin D3...

That said, this practice is still a crap shoot as the beast has ways of loading the dice in its favor...  When that happens you crap out and the beast wins...

The best practice for episodic CH'ers is to stay on this regimen year round.  That way when the next cycle comes around, it's a non-event.

Now to your question.  Episodic CH'ers fall victim to the body clock function controlled triggering mechanism that starts episodic CH cycles.  It's interesting to note that several episodic CH'ers have reported very low 25(OH)D serum concentrations throughout their remission periods.

This suggests a very interesting relationship between a vitamin D3 deficiency and the body clock function that triggers the start of an episodic cycle.   

If the 25(OH)D serum concentration is below 60 ng/mL when the alarm goes off... the episodic cycle starts... 

However, as reported by many episodic CH'ers who have stayed on this regimen year round maintaining an average 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ng/mL...  their body clock alarm may be going off but nothing happens...  they just continue to enjoy delightful pain free sleep...

At this point it's not clear if a 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ng/mL interrupts or inhibits the body clock function that triggers the start of an episodic cycle... or it interrupts another down stream function in the pathogenesis of an episodic CH cycle after the alarm has gone off...

Being an old Navy fighter pilot with CCH  and not a molecular biologist or immunologist...  it makes little difference to me where the interruption occurs that prevents CH...  as long as the anti-inflammatory regimen prevents CH...  That's all that really matters... 

A raw efficacy of 83% for the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing CH beats the house odds at the crap and black jack tables by a big margin...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jul 17th, 2014 at 8:17pm
Hey everyone checking back in. Yesterday was one month pain free. I am waiting on my second results for my D3 test.They should be back any day now.

Batch thanks again for everything. There are a few things I learned this time that I have never stopped to take notice of. There are a lot of people who do not understand the pain we are in BUT they are more than willing to do whatever they can to help ease that pain. From the older "country" man at the welding store who had no issue helping me get oxygen and the regulator and wanting to know more about our headaches to the kind pharmacist at Target who opened up the pharmacy, TWICE,  just so I could get my pills to everyone here on this board. When you see the good in people it helps get through the pain.

I am not sure if it is the batch or end of my cycle (it was due to end) but whatever it is I am glad to once again have my life back. It is amazing to run again, climb back on my motorcycle again, be intimate with my wife again and play outside with my sons again. WONDERFUL.

Batch we did not get to fish up in AK. We went up to sight see and show our sons where the Mrs and I met 23 years ago. I miss that place a lot.

You all take care and I will be back soon to post my next D3 results. I will post all of them I take.

Thanks again all of you. 

I forgot to mention I am on a maintenance dose of 15000IU of D3 and 2400 Fish oil with the rest of the "batch" I might phase out the magnesium and B-50 as I believe my multi-vitamin covers them. I will stay on the D3 and Fish oil though I have no intention of getting off of those again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 18th, 2014 at 10:49am
Hey TG,

Thanks for the feedback.  It's always good to hear the CH are gone no matter why.  Determining the efficacy of the anti-inflammatory regimen is a little more difficult for episodic CH'ers as it's easy to confuse a response to this regimen with end of cycle.

That said, the best indication of efficacy of this regimen will come when your usual episodic cycle time comes and goes without any CH.

Regarding magnesium supplements...  An RDA of 400 mg/day for men and 320 mg/day for women is a very safe bet for many reasons...

I've found the 400 mg/day magnesium essential for an effective 25(OH)D response to vitamin D3.  In addition, I've found hand and leg cramps another indication of insufficient magnesium while taking vitamin D3 at the doses we take to prevent CH. 

Calcium plays a role in muscle contraction and magnesium in muscle relaxation.  As vitamin D3 increases calcium kinetics, it's easy to get the serum calcium-magnesium ratio out of balance if you're not taking sufficient magnesium supplements.

There are also several studies indicating magnesium is essential for good heart health. 

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Take care.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by koctail on Jul 18th, 2014 at 1:30pm
Maybe this is a stupid question, but is lying out in direct sunlight for an hour with no sunscreen on a good idea? Natural absorption of the Vitamin D to bump up levels, or is it just a drop in the bucket and more of a skin cancer risk than anything.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jul 18th, 2014 at 7:02pm
Batch thanks and say mo more I will keep the magnisium too.

Time to dial back d3
itamin D, 25-OH, D3 203

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Miguel Amaral on Jul 24th, 2014 at 4:40pm

Miguel Amaral wrote on Jun 29th, 2014 at 2:58pm:
Thanks Thierry ,
just finished placing my order ....

have the blood test scheduled for next Friday and all should be ready to start the regimen on the 2nd week July as soon as the package from Iherb arrives ....
Will share my ongoing experience here later on .....
meanwhile I'm continuing my acupuncture, that in my case has helped me going throw my cycles .....

Thanks for all the help !!!


Hi all , 

sorry to jump in but just wanted to update my story .

So nearly one month later I'm still waiting for my Vits order ..
Pretty sure it was stopped at customs ....   :(
I'm delaying my lab test as I would like to start the regimen imediately after the test .....
This wait is terrible as I'm feeling the shadows getting more and more persistent ...... :'(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jul 24th, 2014 at 5:46pm
Hi Miguel, so sorry to hear about your order. Even if customs have intercepted your order, there is nothing illegal in the box so they should let it go to its final destination. I understand your frustration though as I am sure your head is crying out for the D3 regimen. I hope you'll soon be in a position to start it. I put in an order with iherb and received it in 10 days so yours shouldn't be too long now -fingers crossed-.
All th best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 25th, 2014 at 5:42am
hi miquil,
                hope your vitamins come soon.
listen, don't delay your test ! no need, get it done so as the day your vitamins arrive you can start chucking them down,
  I wouldn't delay !!!!

regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 25th, 2014 at 12:10pm
Koctail,

Good question.  Some CH'ers who live in sunny climates think they develop sufficient cutainious vitamin D3 with resulting higher serum concentrations of 25(OH)D so wouldn't need to take supplemental vitamin D3. 

They're correct...  if they spend several hours a week out in the sun clad in a bathing suit without sun block. 

There are several studies of lifeguards at various sunny locations around the world and these studies found these lifeguards had an average 25(OH)D serum concentration around 60 ng/mL. At the same time, office workers at these locations averaged a 25(OH)D serum concentration around 45 ng/mL.

While 25(OH)D serum concentration in this range clearly meet the vitamin D3 endocrine requirements for healthy calcium homeostasis and bone health, as CH'ers, we need to maintain a therapeutic 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ng/mL or higher in order to support the autocrine (genetic expression) mode of vitamin D3 metabolism that prevents CH.

Bottom line...  It's much safer, a lot easier and far more effective to supplement with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 or more along with the vitamin D3 cofactors.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cc45713 on Jul 25th, 2014 at 8:35pm
Hi. These are my vitamins for the anti-inflammatory regimen. I've noticed that over the last two days I have pretty bad diarrhea could it be because of any of these vitamins?

X4 gelcaps of:

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X 1 capsule of:

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X1 gelcap of:

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X2 gelcaps of:

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X2 capsules of:

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I'm also taking x1 capsule of Kirkland brand vitamin b50 complex but couldn't find a link.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 25th, 2014 at 11:06pm
hey CC,
               yep, the magnesium effects me in that way as well !!!!!
magnesium citrate is one of the preferred types, cant remember what the other ones were. Im currently changing up my magnesium for the same reason. Its a very important co-factor, see how you go over the next few days with it. I cut mine in half and went with 200mg for a while to see how that went.
   how are you going with the headaches ?????
if your noticing a difference, perhaps put up with the discomfort of a bit of looseness to build up your d3 levels, certainly better than a kip 8 attack,  and your body might adjust to the levels.  its been suggested to me by batch to try another brand of magnesium mix which is less absorbing, which im about to try.
col

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cc45713 on Jul 26th, 2014 at 6:40am
Hey blacklab.

Since my last post I've been 90% pain free. Until last night anyways. I got nailed every hour, all night. Sucks,  thought I was moving into the clear.

I did do quite a bit of heavy lifting during the day and didnt drink much water which I'm hoping is the reason why. Another thought I had was maybe I am flushing out too many of the vitamins with my bowel Issues.   Maybe I'll pick up the magnesium citrate and alternate the two to see how my body reacts.

We seem to be in a similar position with similar issues. What's funny is that my name is also Colin.  lol.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jul 26th, 2014 at 4:10pm
Batch

Quick, hopefully easy question: My D3 came back at 203. Should I stop taking D3 for 2 weeks (half life) to get it down to 100? Then start back up at my usual 15,000 IU a day? Maybe cut that back to 10,000IU?

Thanks again

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 26th, 2014 at 10:28pm
hey CC  ( colin ) LOL
    yep, its a balancing act !
I found for me, that the regime didn't so much "bust" my ch cycle that was in progress when I started taking it, but it has acted as a preventative !!
I remember getting frustrated hearing about an instant reaction from those that said there cycle stopped almost immediately and have been pain free ever since.
( but im so happy for them )
ive started taking a magnesium that's called triple magnesium complex. which is magnesium oxide, citrate & aspartate. apparently mag. citrate is easily absorbed, so the others not so much, so probably is slower releasing.
Ive actually had this bottle since I started but saw that citrate was the one of choice so bought that.
batch has told me that mag. oritate or aspartate have a lower effect on the looseness.
or alternatively col, he told me to drop the magnesium altogether for a while and try taking a handful of almonds with the regime as they help with the absorption of the d3.
  its quite amazing too, obviously magnesium has this effect, but how much magnesium is in other foods we eat. for instance, I love my bananas, and would have 2-3 per day,plus mixed nuts with almonds in there, but from what im reading, that could have added another 100-130 mg a day !. so with my 400mg tablet, my bananas and 50 mg in the multi vitamin,plus almonds, I was probably consuming 6-700mg,  looooose as a goose   lol
If you just google up magnesium level in bananas, it will show also different other foods magnesium levels.
So, maybe, magnesium could be one part of the regime, if your count is up there in diet, that you could cross off the swallow list !  I guess its a good thing if we are positive its being consumed at the required level in our daily diet.
anyhow, hope you continue to improve, and maybe try the almonds or natural magnesium foods instead of the vit tablet !!!!
cheers col
col

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 27th, 2014 at 4:28pm
TG,

If your lab test results for 25(OH)D were measured in ng/mL like your previous tests, all you need to do is drop to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  What was your average daily intake of vitamin D3?  Howz the head?

A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 200 ng/mL is higher than needed to prevent CH.  I've been in contact with a handful of chronic CH'ers, refractory to other CH preventatives, who have been keeping their CH under control by maintaining their 25(OH)D in a range between 150 and 190 ng/mL under a physicians supervision with frequent lab tests for 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH (parathyroid hormone).

As the half-life of 25(OH)D is roughly two weeks, dropping your vitamin D3 intake to 10,000 IU/day should bring your 25(OH)D serum concentration down nicely over the next 30 days.  Try to get another lab test for 25(OH)D at that point.  Also ask for lab tests of your total serum calcium and PTH at that time.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mjedwards409 on Jul 28th, 2014 at 7:32am
Hi all,

This is my first thread outside the "Getting to Know Ya" section.  I'm posting on behalf of my wife who is apparently going through her first cycle at 24 years old.  You can get the back story here:

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Cliffs Notes:

- Headaches started July 4th after 5K and 1 alcoholic drink
- HA have been primarly at night around 1:30AM.  (Although she has had 2 during the day.)
- Visited HA Specialist on July 17th, who prescribed 1 week cycle of prednisone with taper.  Doc said CH not a possibility because she is a woman.
- Prednisone cycle stopped all headaches.  Headaches returned the night of July 26th and again at about 4:00AM this morning.  No long term preventative was combined with Pred. (Again because Doc did not diagnose as CH)

So that's the backstory.  I have some questions and I would be greatly appreciative of any help here:

I went and bought her all of the regimen yesterday.  Went with the Magnesium Citrate over the Magnesium Oxide due to some of the things I read.  Got the exact same brands of everything and threw in the B50 complex.  She took the standard 10,000iu dose to start off.  (Per Batch's recommendation to make sure there were no ill effects, which there were not)  She will take 70,000iu this evening with dinner along with everything else.

I have a few questions that I hope you guys and gals can help me with:

1) She starts a new job this week as a teacher so she absolutely cannot afford a hit at work that fails to be aborted.  Do you think it's wise to get a refill of the pred taper while she gets the D3 and all into her system?  Obviously this is not a long term solution, but her first taper was only 7 days which is fairly short, so maybe a second short cycle would give her some temp relief while she D3 loaded?

2) Batch's original D3 regimen called for 400mg Magnesium.  However, since we bought the Magnesium Citrate it comes in 250mg tablets.  Would the single 250mg Magnesium Cit. be enough considering it absorbs much better than Oxide?  She already eats a lot of fruits, leafy greans, and mixed nuts.

3) Since it looks like these neuros may stick to their guns on the "women can't get CH" thing, is it worth just getting an O2 tank through other means than medical?  If so, can I just get the tank and then by the non-rebreather mask from the site. Are there any other "parts" we'd need? (I know this is non D3 related, but any feedback here would be great)

Thanks very much again for the support. 

EDIT:  Just as a follow up, she has not had the D3 lab test yet.  I highly doubt her neuros are going to be willing to do it on her follow up appt.  She is going to try and get in for a physical from our PCP in the next few weeks.  She will have already started the regimen but at least that may give us some guidance over where she is.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dauber on Jul 28th, 2014 at 10:36am
D3us ex machina!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jul 28th, 2014 at 3:38pm
Batch

Thanks for the reply. First I have been pain free for over a month and a half now Aug 13th will be two months.  My dose was anywhere between 15,000 iu to 20,000 IU a day. Mostly on the 20,000IU a day due to my running and physical activity which I was not sure if it was using the D3 or not (I am guessing not at this time)

I took a week off of D3 with no ill effects. I took 10,000IU today and will continue to do so. I just did not want to remain "toxic" for too long. I do the at home D3 test but maybe I can swing my new Dr to do the others as well.

Thanks

Take care

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Jul 28th, 2014 at 4:39pm
Mjedwards - I replied in your other thread.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mjedwards409 on Jul 28th, 2014 at 8:59pm
Thanks Feisty.  Will respond over there. 

Any more comments on the Magnesium would be appreciated!  Wondering if missing high on the Magnesium is better than missing low.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 29th, 2014 at 12:55am
Hey MJ,

Thanks for the feedback.  You and your wife made a wise decision getting her started on the anti-inflammatory regimen.  It appears you're wife is off to a good start and I wouldn't be surprised if she hasn't already started responding by now.

Regarding your questions:

1.  You wife can try to pick up another pred taper as an insurance policy, but I doubt her neurologist will prescribe a second taper so soon after the first pred taper.  If she's successful in obtaining another pred taper, have her hold off on starting it until she's given the anti-inflammatory regimen and vitamin D3 loading schedule at least 5 to 6 days to start working. 

Prednisone typically starts working as a transition preventative in less than 24 hours. 

If your wife hasn't experienced a significant reduction, (~70%), in the frequency, severity and duration of her CH or gone pain free after 5 to 6 days, she can start the pred taper if she was able to get it.

Prednisone is also an anti-inflammatory although it carries some onerous side effects if taken for too long.  We've had several CH'ers start the anti-inflammatory regimen while taking prednisone...  no problems noted...  That said, studies have shown prednisone can slow vitamin D3 metabolism...

2.  Regarding the 250 mg magnesium citrate tablets...  Get a pill splitter...  Most pharmacies carry them.  Magnesium is the most important vitamin D3 cofactor...  As such, 375 mg magnesium citrate is better than 250 mg...  unless the larger dose results in osmotic diarrhea.

3.  Oxygen Therapy.   If I was a licensed and practicing neurologist or headache specialist...  oxygen therapy would be my first abortive of choice while starting the anti-inflammatory regimen.  If used properly and soon enough... oxygen therapy with hyperventilation is nearly 100% effective in aborting CH. 

Given the neurologists your wife is seeing are obviously suffering from a loss of vision or haven't read any of the recent (2009 - 2011) survey data published by Dr. Todd Rozen, MD, FAAN, Director, Geisinger Neurosciences Institute Headache Center, Wilkes-Barre, PA, starting a new hobby using an oxy-acetylene welding system to do metal sculpting may be in order.

Dr. Rozen's survey data clearly indicates women suffer from CH...  "1134 individuals completed the survey (816 male, 318 female), 28% of CH sufferers are women... 868 patients had episodic CH (male:female ratio 2.9:1) while 266 had chronic CH (male:female ratio 1.8:1)..." 

An added suggestion...  You need to start this regimen as well...  The health benefits are hard to dismiss at 30 cents a day...  your brain, prostate, heart and basically your entire body will thank you for starting this regimen...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cc45713 on Jul 29th, 2014 at 8:52am
Ok so I took my family up to the cottage for a week beginning the Saturday that just past. I brought my anti-inflammatory regimen with me, along with 3 portable "E" tanks. (Skip the next paragraph if you don't care about the poor me stuff)

Within two days I've killed all tanks and had the worst nights of my cycle. I can't even put my head on a pillow for more than an hour without hitting the oxygen for 20 minutes afterwards. I received an "M" tank to the cottage yesterday afternoon and killed half of it last night alone.

Batch. I'm 13 days into the regimen.  I've upped my vitamin D by 10,000 IU a day to 30,000 over the last 4 days. plus today is my second loading dose of 50,000 iu.  I was hoping I would be getting into a better place by now. Instead I feel like I'm getting worse. It could be a high point in my cycle causing this. It's usually what happens when I peak.

My question is, does it sound to you like the regimen may not work for me? Or possibly only work as a preventative as blacklab suggested?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Jul 29th, 2014 at 12:56pm
Cc45713, sorry to hear what you're going through :( .

I know it doesn't help, but it feels like dh's CH is getting worse (?) too. The cycle started 35 days ago, started O2 28 days ago, started the full D3 loading schedule 8 days ago (started D3 at lower doses before that though).

I'm wondering if dh's allergies are interfering with building up his levels of the blood form of D3? I read from Batch that allergic reactions "use up" D3 metabolites.

Are you suffering from allergies? If so, any chance it was worse at the cottage? Just some ideas for you...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cc45713 on Jul 29th, 2014 at 1:06pm
Hey first.

That thought occurred to me but I don't have any allergies that I know of.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 29th, 2014 at 4:02pm
Hey CC,

Sorry you're still having a rough time.  Increasing the vitamin D3 loading dose for a few days should help cut the increase in the frequency of your CH and speed up the pain free response.

You may have a low arterial pH (too much acid) so starting the GOMBS diet is a good idea. A low arterial pH triggers vasodilation and that makes just about all CH medications less effective.  A GOMBS diet will help elevate a low arterial pH, increase serum alkalinity and this should make both oxygen therapy and the anti-inflammatory regimen more effective.

GOMBS stand for Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans-Berries and Seeds & Nuts.  You can find some great GOMBS meals at the following links:

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Regarding your oxygen therapy...  I see why you're having trouble obtaining a fast abort of your CH and using so much oxygen...  Sucking on the oxygen tubing is part of the problem.  Your breathing technique is the other part.  You need to hyperventilate to make oxygen therapy more effective.

If you've had a home oxygen cylinder refill, here's the latest procedure and breathing technique you should try to abort your CH.  You'll need one of DJ's ClusterO2 kits from the CH.com store tab at the left of this screen.

I call this method Oxygen Therapy with Hyperventilation.   It essentially involves hyperventilating on room air at forced vital capacity tidal volumes for 30 seconds followed by a lung full of 100% oxygen that's held for another 30 seconds.

Remove the face mask from the ClusterO2 kit when you receive it as you'll be breathing directly from the 22 mm nipple on the green "T" manifold or mouthpiece as shown below.  You'll also need to adjust the oxygen regulator so it fills the 3 liter reservoir bag completely in one minute...

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You'll also need to cup the T-manifold exhaust port in the palm of your hand and press the open breathing port to your cheek or chin when not inhaling from it to keep oxygen from escaping and let the reservoir bag fill while you're hyperventilating with room air.

Start by standing to give your diaphragm full range of movement... This is important as standing during this procedure helps ventilate the lungs more completely.  Lean against a wall if you get dizzy while using this method of oxygen therapy.  If you get too dizzy, sit erect in a chair.

The next step is exhale forcibly through your mouth until if feels like your lungs are empty...  they're not!  Do an abdominal crunch like doing sit-ups and hold the squeeze until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds.

It sounds terrible but it's a very important part of this method of aborting a CH with oxygen...  This forced exhalation breathing technique will squeeze out another half to a full liter of exhaled breath.  This last volume or end tidal flow of exhaled breath has the highest CO2 concentration and blowing off CO2 is the key to the effectiveness of this procedure.

Then without delay, throw your head and shoulders back and inhale room air as rapidly and deeply as possible until you can't inhale any more.

Again without any delay, use the forced exhalation technique.  Keep repeating this sequence as fast as possible with room air for 30 seconds.  You should be able to complete 10 of these complete cycles in 30 seconds.

At the end of the 30 seconds breathing with this technique, exhale forcibly one more time and hold the squeeze for a good 5 seconds...  Then place the ClusterO2 kit "T" manifold breathing port to your lips and inhale a lung full of 100% oxygen as rapidly as possible and hold it for 30 seconds. 

I know it's difficult, but try to relax at this point.  While you're waiting, place the breathing port on the ClusterO2 kit to your cheek or chin with the palm of your hand over the exhalation port to form a gas tight seal in order to inflate the reservoir bag for the next breath of oxygen.

If you're doing this breathing technique properly, you'll start feeling the symptoms of transient paresthesia and a slight dizziness...  These temporary symptoms of paresthesia include a very slight tingling/prickling of the face, lips, and fingertips.  You'll also experience a slight rush when you start holding the lungful of oxygen...  Paresthesia is the best indication you've pushed your body into respiratory alkalosis.

At the end of the 30 seconds holding the lungful of oxygen, exhale into the room with a good chest squeeze... then repeat the above sequence until the pain is completely gone... 

Be sure to practice this procedure for a few cycles before the cluster beast attacks...

If your start this procedure at the first sign of an approaching CH attack, you should be able to abort the attack in four minutes or less...  and with as little as 16 to 20 liters of oxygen...

If the CH hits while sleeping and is well established or rising, start this procedure as fast as possible.  It will work effectively through pain level 9, (Kip 9), it will just take longer.

The following chart from the pilot study of the demand valve method of oxygen therapy for rapid CH aborts illustrates the increase in abort times as the pain level increases.

Oxygen therapy combined with hyperventilating on room air is just as fast at aborting a CH and as effective as the demand valve method.  I'm a patent holder of the demand valve method of oxygen therapy so I've studied and used it extensively since 2007.  It also uses a lot less oxygen so it works very well with low flow rate oxygen regulators.

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While you're waiting for the ClusterO2 kit to arrive and if you're handy with DIY projects, you can build a Redneck Oxygen Reservoir Bag Breathing System.  They work great...

All you need is a clean 40 gal trash bag, the oxygen tubing from your old disposable oxygen mask, an empty plastic Coke or Juice bottle (with cap), some Duck tape and some electricians tape.  The following graphics should help in this DIY effort.

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Fill the Redneck Reservoir Bag ahead of time.  If you've constructed it properly, it should hold oxygen for a few days.

When the next CH hits, head for your redneck reservoir bag system and start hyperventilating at forced vital capacity tidal volumes for 30 seconds with room air.  As you approach 30 seconds make one more forced exhalation only hold the crunch/squeeze for a good 5 seconds.  While you doing this squeeze, unscrew the cap from the plastic bottle, inhale a lungful of 100% oxygen then replace the cap while you're holding the lungful of oxygen for 30 seconds.  Keep repeating this sequence until the CH pain is completely gone.  You'll be surprised at the lack of inhalation resistance sucking oxygen from the Redneck reservoir bag.

Take care and please keep me posted...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by koctail on Jul 29th, 2014 at 4:15pm
Hey CC, bummer to be having that many hits.

Is your cabin in the mountains...I know altitude can affect CH in some. Are you on any preventatives? You could talk to your neuro about Verapamil as first line preventative. Other options are Lithium and there is always Prednisone.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mjedwards409 on Jul 30th, 2014 at 6:06am
Thanks Batch for the feedback on my post.

I'll go point by point...

Prednisone - You were right that the doc did not want to prescribe another taper so close to the first.  He actually prescribed Tompamax over the phone. (Which we are still researching and leaning towards not going that direction due to the side effects.  She mentioned she rather try the shrooms if it came down to it)

Magnesium - Thanks for the tip on the pill splitter.  However, these are large liquid filled soft gels.  I know she wants more than 250mg so right now she is just taking (2) for a total of 500mg.  Is there potential harm in taking the 500mg of Mag Citrate or is this okay?

Oxygen - Thanks very much for the tip.  O2 is at the top of our list if these things continue.  She has another appt with the doc in 7 days.  If the HA's are still going on, we will demand it then.  If he still refuses, we will get it through other means.

Neuros - If these symptoms persist, and the doctor is still unwilling to consider CH because she is a woman, we will print them off some literature and most likely find another neuro. 

D3 Results - Now for the good news...(knock on wood)  Yesterday was day 3 of the regimen and last night was her 2nd PF night in a row.  If you take out the days when she was on the Pred taper, this is the first time she has gone two nights without a HA since July 6th and 7th.  She still complains every night about taking so many pills, but I remind her about how much more inconvenient it was to go to the ER at 3AM compared to taking a few vitamins with dinner.   ;) 

We will continue to monitor and try to get her a D3 blood test at the 30 day mark.  (Was almost impossible to get that done before we started)

As far as me taking the D3 regimen...maybe someday.  We spent about $100 just getting all of the vitamins for her.  I already take a Multi, fish oil, zinc, and Saw Palmetto.  Really I'd just be adding the D3.  On that note, if she keeps feeling better then it just might make me a believer after all.

Thanks and will keep everyone updated!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by haste25 on Jul 30th, 2014 at 8:36am
Just wanted to say that, after my last post some two weeks ago, I have not had a cluster headache. My guess is that it took around three days for the added Magnesium, the K2, and the B50 to "kick in" to the regimen. Still some occasional shadowing if a) I wait longer than 24 hours to take my vitamins and B) the morning after I drink alcohol. But these are aborted with food and extra D3 or Excedrin. Nothing major.
This time, I will continue on the regimen even during remission.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 30th, 2014 at 9:16am
Hey TG,

Your comment "I just did not want to remain "toxic" for too long." caught my attention.

For starters...  you're not toxic, (vitamin D3 intoxication)... even with a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 203 ng/mL.  The real lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication is likely up around 300 ng/mL... or higher.

A 25(OH)D serum concentration of 203 ng/mL by itself is not an indication of vitamin D3 intoxication.  The most reliable indication of vitamin D3 intoxication is a total calcium serum concentration above its normal reference range... 

Serum concentrations of parathyroid hormone can also be elevated above the normal reference range in some cases of vitamin D3 toxicity.

Vitamin D3 intoxication is very rare...  and there hasn't been a single death attributed to vitamin D3 reported to the FDA in the history of their adverse reaction database.  We can't say that about verapamil and too many of the other medications prescribed for CH.

The two most common causes of vitamin toxicity are taking massive doses of vitamin D3 ~ a million IU/day or hyperparathyroidism.  In either case, calcium homeostasis, the control mechanism that regulates serum calcium concentrations in a very narrow range, gets overloaded and calcium concentrations rise above the normal reference range... 

The symptoms of vitamin D3 intoxication are severe enough that anyone experiencing them would go to the ER...

As it would be unethical to do a study to determine toxic doses of vitamin D3, the "experts" have used clinical data from a few cases where people mistakenly took massive doses of vitamin D3 or were given vitamin D2 at too large a dose and that resulted in serum calcium going over the the normal reference range to determine a "toxic" threshold. 

There were at least two cases where vitamin D3 was improperly labeled and contained concentrations 10 to 100 times higher than indicated on the label.  There was another case that involved a similar problem with vitamin D2.

The other mechanism that can result in vitamin D3 intoxication involves the parathyroid glands...  There are four of them, each about the size of a grain of rice on the back side of the thyroid gland. 

If one of these parathyroid glands becomes involved with an adenoma - a benign tumor of epithelial tissue with glandular origin, glandular characteristics, or both, it will produce too much parathyroid hormone (PTH).   Too much PTH will, in turn, signal the kidneys to metabolize too much 25(OH)D into 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal form of vitamin D3. 

The increased serum concentration of 1,25(OH)2D3 pulls too much calcium from the gut overloading the calcium homeostasis control mechanism.  When that happens, the total calcium serum concentration will rise above the normal reference range... and that... is vitamin D3 intoxication.

What the "experts" have done is reverse engineer the doses that resulted in vitamin D3 toxicity to determine a "safe" maximum tolerable dose of vitamin D3.   They also determined a corresponding maximum serum concentration threshold of 25(OH)D that will not result in vitamin D3 intoxication for 95% of the people who take it...

If you believed the nanny state, big government bureaucrats on the Food and Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine (IOM)... you would be stuck with a maximum tolerable dose of vitamin D3 at 4,000 IU/day...  These are the people who determine the Dietary Reference Intakes (DRI) for vitamins and minerals...

Big pharma would also like you and many physicians to believe vitamin D3 toxicity is a much bigger problem...  Of course...  That way they can sell more of their high priced pharmaceuticals that don't work as well to prevent CH, and which carry a long list of onerous side effects...

Big Pharma also leans on our elected officials in DC...  This is called lobbying and it has already had an impact on coverage for oxygen therapy for Medicare beneficiaries suffering from CH...

If they get their way, obtaining over the counter vitamin D3 at the doses we need, will be next to impossible.

See the following link:

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Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Jul 30th, 2014 at 12:14pm

Mjedwards409 wrote on Jul 30th, 2014 at 6:06am:
As far as me taking the D3 regimen...maybe someday.  We spent about $100 just getting all of the vitamins for her.  I already take a Multi, fish oil, zinc, and Saw Palmetto.  Really I'd just be adding the D3.
FYI - the D3 (by itself) would be US$6.75 per person {edited to add} per month for 10,000 IU per day:
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But yeah, it does add up.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 30th, 2014 at 11:17pm
hi guys,
             I'll pull out my last receipt, but I got 10,000iu vit d3, 360 capsules, for around $26, delivered to Australia, $6.00 postage from U.S.A...   which makes it, less than 10cents a dose,  shop around, more and more outlets are stocking it as the news gets around and some good deals are to be had.  But at less than 10 cents a dose, for all its benefits, its a no brainer,  we spend more than that on a take away coffee every day !!   I think I worked out the entire daily cost for the regime, from memory, 45cents a day, and im including postage on everything, if I titrate up on d3, it could escalate to 75 cents a day !!  im looking more and more at bulk items, so i'll scan the internet, ebay all the time for buying bigger quantities.
regards
colin   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Jul 31st, 2014 at 1:04am
Agreed Colin! I made a mistake in my post, just corrected it :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jul 31st, 2014 at 2:20am
This Vit D3 is 10000iu per softgel, 360 softgels per tub, $23. 95


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:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jul 31st, 2014 at 4:59am
Hi Miguel,
did you receive your order from Iherb yet?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mjedwards409 on Jul 31st, 2014 at 6:43am
Batch and all,

First off, this morning I am celebrating a 3rd pain free night for my wife in a row.  I have a few quick questions though:

-She is not used to taking so many pills and she gets fairly bad indigestion for about 2 hours after she takes them.  We got all the same brands you recommended.  Any tips on this?  She takes them with dinner every night. (Largest meal of her day) 

-She has had basically a constant mild tension headache over the past 3 days.  (Not "shadows" really because they are a traditional whole-head HA)  Has this happened to anyone else?

-Her stomach and bowel habits are become just a bit irritated.  She is already on Magnesium Citrate and not Oxide.  Any chance dropping from 500mg to 250mg would work effectively?  She eats a lot of leafy green food and a lot of nuts otherwise.  Like I mentioned before, a pill splitter isn't really an option because these are liquid gel caps.

Thanks all!!!

EDIT:  It looks like the cost for D3 topic has gained some steam since I mentioned it.  I certainly wasn't trying to say that this isn't a massive bargain depending on it's CH effectiveness.  I was just referring to starying it myself being a non-CH sufferer who already takes a multi, fish oil, zinc, etc.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Jul 31st, 2014 at 11:40am
Mjedwards, that is great that your wife has had three pain-free nights!


Quote:
She is not used to taking so many pills and she gets fairly bad indigestion for about 2 hours after she takes them.  We got all the same brands you recommended.  Any tips on this?  She takes them with dinner every night. (Largest meal of her day) 
Take pills before dinner, not after. It might help to use "coated" and "no fishy aftertaste" fish oil - I have sometimes had issues with capsules that don't specify that.


Quote:
-She has had basically a constant mild tension headache over the past 3 days.
Is she well hydrated? That should be a priority for a CH sufferer, esp in the summer.


Quote:
-Her stomach and bowel habits are become just a bit irritated.  She is already on Magnesium Citrate and not Oxide.  Any chance dropping from 500mg to 250mg would work effectively?  She eats a lot of leafy green food and a lot of nuts otherwise.  Like I mentioned before, a pill splitter isn't really an option because these are liquid gel caps.
I would get a pill form of magnesium so you can split if required to give her the correct dose. I can easily buy it at my local grocery store, or at any drug store. Also, did you check her multi? As I wrote before, a multi would normally have magnesium in it - if you are doing 500 mg on top of that, it would be a lot.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mjedwards409 on Jul 31st, 2014 at 2:26pm

feisty wrote on Jul 31st, 2014 at 11:40am:
Mjedwards, that is great that your wife has had three pain-free nights!


Quote:
She is not used to taking so many pills and she gets fairly bad indigestion for about 2 hours after she takes them.  We got all the same brands you recommended.  Any tips on this?  She takes them with dinner every night. (Largest meal of her day) 
Take pills before dinner, not after. It might help to use "coated" and "no fishy aftertaste" fish oil - I have sometimes had issues with capsules that don't specify that.

[quote]-She has had basically a constant mild tension headache over the past 3 days.
Is she well hydrated? That should be a priority for a CH sufferer, esp in the summer.


Quote:
-Her stomach and bowel habits are become just a bit irritated.  She is already on Magnesium Citrate and not Oxide.  Any chance dropping from 500mg to 250mg would work effectively?  She eats a lot of leafy green food and a lot of nuts otherwise.  Like I mentioned before, a pill splitter isn't really an option because these are liquid gel caps.
I would get a pill form of magnesium so you can split if required to give her the correct dose. I can easily buy it at my local grocery store, or at any drug store. Also, did you check her multi? As I wrote before, a multi would normally have magnesium in it - if you are doing 500 mg on top of that, it would be a lot.[/quote]

Thanks Feisty! The multi has 50 mg of Magnesium Oxide so after the low absorption rate hardly any.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 31st, 2014 at 3:08pm
Hey MJ,

Great News!  The general, mild headaches (global/bilateral) should clear in a few days...  Make sure your wife has started the 3-month course of vitamin B 50.

Regarding the number of pills taken in this regimen...  I've shopped around and there are a few things you can do to lower the pill count.

1.  Buy the 10,000 IU vitamin D3 gel caps - your wife will only need one a day as a maintenance dose.  Puritan's Pride has a great offer on 500 capsules of 10,000 IU vitamin D3 (5 bottles for $33.95) or 6.7 cents per 10,000 IU capsule.

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2.  The Kirkland brand Mature Multi contains most of the vitamin D3 cofactors plus 220 mg of calcium.  Only one capsule a day is needed.  When the three month course of vitamin B 50 is complete, the Mature Multi contains enough of all of the B vitamins to prevent any further insufficiencies.

3. I take two of the Nature Made Omega-3 Fish Oil liquid soft gels and one of the Nature Made 400 mg magnesium liquid soft gels... 

4. Adding the Super K with advanced K2 complex will bring the pill count to 6... 7 while taking the vitamin B 50.

Henry Lahore, the vitamin D3 Jedi Master at VitaminDWiki has gathered some excellent data on vitamin D3 and all the cofactors. 

The following link is loaded with great information on vitamin D3 so should be required reading for all CH'ers.

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Henry has web crawlers running 7X24 picking up everything related to vitamin D3 including the latest RCTs.  He posts the links or quotes these web articles as is, so it's best to be a critical reader. 

You'll find good, bad, and other articles... Some very compelling and supportive of vitamin D3 therapy while some are obviously biased against its use...

If you dig deep enough on the bad articles... you'll find Big Pharma or their disciples involved in studies trying to scare people away from taking vitamin D3...   

Henry is also good at pointing out poorly designed studies... or studies with conclusions that are not supported by the study data or design. 

Henry also points out that most RCTs involving vitamin D3 are conducted at too low a dose (≤2000 IU/day) to obtain significant results and nearly all are conducted without any the vitamin D3 cofactors...

The two supplements in the anti-inflammatory regimen that cause the most GI tract problems are the Omega-3 Fish Oil and magnesium.  Both, along with vitamin D3 and the rest of this regimen are best taken with the largest meal of the day. 

It doesn't matter if you take these supplements and then eat, or eat first and then take them...  As long as they're in the tummy with lots of food...  you'll get the best absorption and least amount of GI tract problems.

I've found the 400 mg Nature Made magnesium oxide liquid soft gels to be as effective as the magnesium citrate and both are about equal in their capacity to trigger osmotic diarrhea...  Henry likes the magnesium chloride...

The magnesium is clearly the culprit responsible for lower GI tract problems so by all means, drop the magnesium dose from 500 mg/day to 250 mg/day for a week or two.  That should firm things up a bit... 

That said, due to the important function of magnesium in supporting the enzymatic processes that metabolize vitamin D3, I wouldn't drop the magnesium dose any further.  I'd also try to raise the dose back up to at least 400 mg/day.

Good on you for starting the anti-inflammatory regimen along with your wife.  Your brain, heart, prostate, immune system along with the rest of your body will love you for taking it. 

If you haven't figured it out by now... I'm of the opinion the entire family should be on this regimen even if they don't suffer from CH...  The health benefits are too good to ignore...

On top of that, with our healthcare system going down the dumper... staying healthy is the only logical alternative... and it only costs around 40 cents a day...

I have my entire family taking this regimen... my wife, brother, three kids, their spouses and seven grand kids.

My daughter has been on this regimen for nearly two years...  She went through a problem free pregnancy and delivered a very healthy baby girl... 

Her OB was a little hesitant at first about my daughter taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and all the cofactors during her pregnancy, but he's since determined 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is a great maintenance dose when taken during pregnancy along with the vitamin D3 cofactors, and... while breast feeding. 

He now tests for 25(OH)D and makes sure all his pregnant ladies and breast feeding mothers have serum concentrations of at least 60 ng/mL.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jul 31st, 2014 at 5:57pm
Hi MJ,  great news re ch headaches easing !
boy, I just found out how important magnesium is for the regime !  I dropped it completely for loose-ness reasons, a week later "pow"  my shadows turned into full attacks !
I found another brand with 3 types of magnesium 400mg and quickly added it back in to the regime, with almost an instant reduction in ch attacks. will no if its better for looseness over the next few days !
Its a balancing act !
  MJ, I too get the "tension type headaches"  for me ,I believe that they are shadows, some feel like a mini ch attack, on one side, the others are an all over type headache, its just the beast getting confused !   usually an ice cold redbull gulped down real quick, sends it packing.
The one thing ive learn't about these cluster headaches is that nothing is normal, nothing is exactly the same from one cycle to another.
seems like there's progress being made now, so hopefully your wife continues to get on top of things
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 31st, 2014 at 7:20pm
Haste,

Great news!  Sorry I missed your post yesterday...  Good plan on staying on this regimen year round...  That will also let you experience the other health benefits made possible by this regimen.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mr_Rob on Aug 1st, 2014 at 9:29pm
I started the inflammation regimen 6 days ago but having some unusual results. This week I have had much longer attacks than I have ever had before and they are more intense than usual.

I am one of the lucky ones in that my attacks are almost always 20-23 minutes long unless I am lucky enough for one of my home remedy abortives gets it to stop earlier. I might have one or two a year that lasts 45 minutes but never in 7 years have I had one last longer than that. I started the regimen with a loading dose of 50,000 iu D3 on Saturday. Had a level 8 Sunday night 25 minutes, nothing monday, and then a 2 and half hour one tuesday night. The first 25 minutes was about a 9 and then dropped to a 5 for the next 2 hours. Had another 25 minute 8 on wednesday night and then a 55 minute 9 last night, thursday.

I have been taking the following daily:
19200iu D3
2400mg Fish oil with 720mg Omega 3
10mg Melatonin
3500 IU Vitamin A
16mg Zinc
312mg Magnesium Oxide
533mg Calcium
90mcg K2
2000mg Vitamin C
360mg Verapamil
Other vitamins in my multivitamin

It actually seems to have made things much worse but I have been sticking with it for at least a week to get it all into my system and see if it helps.

Any suggestions on modification of what I am taking?

Until this past week, I have been taking 10mg melatonin and 240mg verapamil and 10,000 d3 for years and that helped prevent about half of my total attacks over a years time.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 2nd, 2014 at 11:02am
Hey Mr_Rob,

Thanks for the feedback.  Sorry you're having problems with the anti-inflammatory regimen...

Roughly 10% of CH'ers who start this regimen experience an initial up-tic in the frequency of their CH... 

We're not sure why this happens, but the likely suspects are inflammation from any source and the process of invigorating the immune system.  These conditions consume available 25(OH)D and the active vitamin D3 metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3 at higher rates leaving insufficient concentrations to prevent CH. 

Colds, flu and allergic reactions are common sources of inflammation along with trauma and surgery.  Of these sources, allergies can be difficult to detect.  Many of us suffer from sub-clinical allergic reactions with no obvious symptoms.

The good news is this problem goes away after a few weeks as 25(OH)D serum concentrations approach therapeutic levels...  usually between 60 and 80 ng/mL, but in some cases higher.

Several CH'ers who experienced this up-tic in the frequency of their CH after starting this regimen found that stopping the calcium supplements for a few weeks helped.

Other CH'ers experiencing this problem found increasing the magnesium intake to 500 mg/day helpful.  Magnesium is an essential part of this regimen as it supports the enzymatic processes that metabolize vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D and on to 1,25(OH)2D3, the active hormonal form of vitamin D3.

As both of the above steps help increase serum concentrations of 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)2D3 at the cellular level, I'd do both... 

As you're taking close to 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and you've started the loading schedule, I suspect the frequency and intensity of your CH will start to drop in a few days.

You indicated you were previously taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for over a year so it's difficult to tell if you need an additional loading dose of vitamin D3 unless you get a lab test for 25(OH)D.

Knowing your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite at this point is important as it can help determine if further vitamin D3 loading is needed and how much vitamin D3 you'll need to take as a maintenance dose.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mr_Rob on Aug 2nd, 2014 at 12:33pm
Thanks so much for the reply Batch. I did have surgery 4 weeks ago with an 8 week long recovery and I am also fighting an eye infection so that makes sense now with your explanation.

One question, I was unable to locate Magnesium Citrate in my small town, I could only find Magnesium Oxide. I have been wondering if this could be an issue as well. The calcium is Calcium Carbonate, not sure if that makes a difference either.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 2nd, 2014 at 4:35pm
Mr_Rob,

Thanks for the update...  The surgery and eye infection could have easily drained your 25(OH)D reserves...

There have been a couple studies that found magnesium oxide (60% magnesium by weight) just as effective in maintaining magnesium serum levels as magnesium citrate (11.3% magnesium by weight). 

It appears the higher magnesium content of magnesium oxide compensates for the lower bio availability.  I've been taking the Nature Made 400 mg magnesium oxide liquid soft gels...  no problems.

There have been a couple studies indicating calcium citrate was absorbed 22% to 27% better than calcium carbonate...  There's nothing wrong with using up the existing calcium carbonate when you restart the calcium supplement but I'd suggest switching to calcium citrate if you can find it...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mr_Rob on Aug 2nd, 2014 at 4:44pm
Good info. thanks for taking the time to share. Much appreciated!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 5th, 2014 at 4:00pm
Wow. I can barely wrap my head around the astounding lecture that I just watched. Batch recommended this and I'm so glad I watched it. It really helps with understanding the link between D3 and pain:

Dr. Stasha Gominak Discusses Sleep and Vitamin D
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edited to add: 2013 followup lecture:
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written summary:
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Her work really validates Batch's approach. Of course, Batch has taken things a step further by developing a regime with all of the critical cofactors that work with D3 - extremely important.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Miguel Amaral on Aug 6th, 2014 at 7:06am

thierry wrote on Jul 31st, 2014 at 4:59am:
Hi Miguel,
did you receive your order from Iherb yet?

Hi thierry ,

Only received the small order with the Super K
The other order with the D3 and the rest of the cofactors  I have no sign of it .
And the big problem is that without a tracking number I don't know where the order is and I can't claim on the customs desk .....
I've made another order last week, now from a UK supplier, for the same vitamins and they should arrive tomorrow .
I have done the blood test already and results are ready on Friday and I'm starting the program as soon as the vitamins arrive .....
I'll keep posting the news .....
Thanks for asking !!  ;)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 6th, 2014 at 9:05am
Crossing our collective fingers for you Miguel!

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Aug 6th, 2014 at 2:29pm
Hi Miguel, so sorry to hear that your order from iherb has not yet arrived. Maybe if you order from them again you can choose a postage option that has a tracking number,-probably a bit more expensive though. It's great you have the super K anyway, it's an important part of the regimen that directs the calcium away from your arteries and tissues and directs it to your bones. Well, i hope you get your order from UK very soon and you can get started on the regimen.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Miguel Amaral on Aug 8th, 2014 at 7:10am
Hello ,

Received my blood tests . Next appoint. with my Dr is next Thursday just to show him the values ....

25 Hidroxiv D - 28.3 ng/mL
Calcium - 4.55 mEq/L   (reference is 4.25 » 5.25 mEq/L)
Magnesium - 1.8 mEq/L  (refrence is 1.3 » 1.9 mEq/L )

No surprise to see that the Vit D is really low ....
The magnesium value is a bit close to the upper reference value, should I expect any problems with this one when
taking the 400 mg /day ?

Expecting the vits order to arrive today ao that I can finally start my reg ...


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 8th, 2014 at 8:55am
Hey Miguel,

Thanks for the lab results.  Your 25(OH)D serum concentration of 28.3 ng/mL is as expected.  It's consistent with the average 25.4 ng/mL reported in the online survey of 127 CH'ers tested before starting the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Follow the suggested vitamin D3 loading schedule listed in the following link:

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Using this vitamin D3 loading schedule will build your 25(OH)D serum concentration safely and rapidly by an average of 60 ng/mL on top of your present 25(OH)D serum concentration.  This is the fastest way of going pain free.

Be sure to ask for another lab test of your 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH (parathyroid hormone) after the 4-week vitamin D3 loading schedule.

Your serum magnesium concentration indicates a good healthy diet.  I wouldn't worry about it at all.  As one of the body's most important water soluble electrolytes and vitamin D3 cofactors, any excess is pumped over the side in urine.

Once you start taking the anti-inflammatory regimen, your body will start using that magnesium to support the enzymatic processes needed to metabolize vitamin D3. 

Taking 400 to 500 mg/day of the magnesium supplement will be essential.  If you start this regimen and don't supplement with magnesium, your natural serum concentration will drop to the point where further vitamin D3 metabolism will be degraded and this regimen may not be capable of preventing your CH.  Too little magnesium will also result in a calcium-magnesium imbalance that can easily result in leg, arm or hand cramps.

Take care and please keep us posted once you've started this regimen.  I'm confident you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Aug 11th, 2014 at 10:11am
Batch...question about the magnesium. I read that certain types may cause problems with our stool. Should I be taking the Citrate or Oxide form? I currently have what is the Triple Magnesium Complex, 400mg (as Oxide, Asparate and Oxide). Does this one also do the trick? Thanks in advance.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 11th, 2014 at 11:38am
Hey Andy,

Great question.  Unfortunately I don't have a clear answer and the rationale for taking one over the other is mixed in some cases.  The real experts on this topic say taking the organic salts of magnesium, i.e. magnesium citrate, magnesium malate and magnesium glycinate are less likely to result in osmotic diarrhea... 

For reference, an organic compound contains carbon atoms as opposed to inorganic salts containing chloride and oxide.

I switched from magnesium citrate to the Nature Made brand of magnesium oxide in  a liquid gel cap form, (400 mg), a couple years ago, and haven't had any problems unless I take two of them on an empty stomach.

My rationale for switching to the Nature Made brand was the USP logo on nearly all Nature Made products, (Independent testing for purity and strength) and cost. 

Although magnesium oxide has a low absorption rate and it's most frequently associated with osmotic diarrhea, each tablet has a higher concentration of elemental magnesium.   The trick is finding the right dose and when best to take it.  I take it along with the rest of the anti-inflammatory regimen immediately following the largest meal of the day.

Henry Lahore, the vitamin D3 Jedi Master who runs the vitaminDwiki web site has an excellent page on the topic of magnesium supplements.  See:

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You can also find additional info on good and bad calcium supplements at the following link:

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Hope this helps and my answer isn't too confusing.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 12th, 2014 at 6:42am
Hi Andy,
             im having the same issues !!!
I'm swapped to the one you mentioned the triple one, but unfortunately made no difference !
ive dropped down to a 225mg mag citrate and for the last few days, well, so far so good   lol
It seems when ever I try to take 400mg of what ever brand,  I get a reaction !
there's 50 mg in the multi we take, plus the 225 citrate I take, so that's 275 total mg's.  As I mentioned in a previous post, im going to try and do the rest in diet, It was interesting to find out, that for every 100 gramms of banana, there's 29 odd mg's of magnesium content ! So because im a two a day banana guy ! plus there's other foods which have good magnesium content, Im going to stick with the multi and the 220 mg tablet and get the rest from diet. other foods are brown rice, advocado, dark chocklate, beans and lentils,   with diet, it doesn't seem to effect me as such !
   Hope that batch agree's with my theory ??????

colin   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Aug 12th, 2014 at 11:03am
Hi
As of yesterday I have returned the “backup”  O2 tanks (3 tanks of
15 Lt. @ 200 bar) and if things go as they are going now, the O2 tank
in the living room will go to the storage room for “just in case” situation,
Will have 2 tanks at home – its more for the psychological effect, and not as a (must) necessity.
The quantity of aborting meds is down to 12 packs (24 portions) of Triptan shots, 10 Zomig nasal,
the way it looks now some of the “equipment” will run past the expiration date!
It’s not that I don’t have an episode once in a while (< 1 @week),
yes I do, but it’s not something worth mentioning…. 
I think Pete offered us all a comprehensive alternative to eliminate the suffering,
and the constant dependency on strong medication and bulky equipment (o2)
for a fraction of the cost of all the above (Triptans / O2 and preventive medication).
I will soon see my treating doc’s (neurologist and pain specialist) and try to convince them
to start and see Petes treatment as a very good alternative to the standard protocol treatments,
and from my last telcon. with them they seem very open and interested….

I can (mostly) pursue my passion – Flying / Paragliding without any second thought or worry
I might get an episode when in the air…
and I love that freedom and piece when alone at (≥) 2000 meters (≥6560 ft.)
with only the sound of the wind around me…..

Pete the gift you gave me (and all of us) is just simply extraordinary,
I’m thankful to you from the bottom of my heart!!!


Michael

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Guiseppi on Aug 12th, 2014 at 11:25am
Funny how you describe the "psychological" factor of keeping a couple of oxygen tanks Michael. I'm 4 years pain free and still can't stand the thought of parting with my E tanks I keep stored in the garage! Great to hear you've tamed the beast.

Joe

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Aug 12th, 2014 at 4:01pm

Guiseppi wrote on Aug 12th, 2014 at 11:25am:
Funny how you describe the "psychological" factor of keeping a couple of oxygen tanks Michael. I'm 4 years pain free and still can't stand the thought of parting with my E tanks I keep stored in the garage! Great to hear you've tamed the beast.


Just over 2.5 years since my last CH, but I've still got the cylinders waiting, ready. Although the regulator and mask are now sitting in a draw nearby so they don't get covered in dust.

I've thought several times about returning them, but haven't yet, just in case...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Aug 12th, 2014 at 10:25pm
Batch & Colin,
Thanks so much for the feedback. Very helpful in determining which Mag to get. Also good to read these recent success stories. PF days to all!!

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Aug 13th, 2014 at 8:02am
The funny part in this entire “o2 cylinders” escapade is:
At a very low pain level (a year ago)  I would most likely
just try to ignore or “suffer” through and hope it does not evolve
into a full blown episode, or just use the O2 for a few minutes,
and have it (mostly) over with!

Now, what was a very low pain level (a year ago) seems to me as a “painful” event,
and I get somewhat tense  -  the (left on hand) O2 cylinder seems as an anchor –
or somehow a safety / refuge point!
I know pain is relative, individual and subjective.

I try always to relativize the episode, and yet I need some “familiar” and established “rituals”,
seems these past few years ( about 9 years) made me, in this respect,
a very methodic / disciplined  and careful person – “scared”.

It will need some time, if the situation stays as it is, to overcome the “scars”
this malady bestowed on me…..

The passage seems promising  and it is said that time heals all wounds
The O2 tank will go, and all the meds will go to…   the sooner the better

Michael

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by pattik on Aug 13th, 2014 at 10:20am

wildhaus wrote on Aug 13th, 2014 at 8:02am:
I try always to relativize the episode, and yet I need some “familiar” and established “rituals”,
seems these past few years ( about 9 years) made me, in this respect, a very methodic / disciplined  and careful person – “scared”.



It will need some time, if the situation stays as it is, to overcome the “scars”
this malady bestowed on me…..


Michael, you have summed up how I feel. 26 months and counting since I have used my O2 (THANK YOU BATCH). I may never be ready to return my two M-60 tanks....well, maybe one of them which is half-full.  31 years of CH without a preventative med I can tolerate has made me very jaded. But this anti-inflammatory regimen is slowly changing my attitude, which is good, since in most other aspects, I'm an optimist.

Being methodical and disciplined regarding CH is so ingrained for me now, I can't even imagine not being that way.  Funny how CH pain teaches through negative reinforcement. ;)



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 14th, 2014 at 12:32pm
Colin,

There's a few things about your magnesium problems to consider...  400 mg/day is the universally accepted daily requirement from all sources, dietary + supplements.  That said, if  225 mg/day is keeping you essentially pain free, and you're not experiencing any hand or leg cramps, your magnesium intake may be sufficient.

However, if you are still getting hits, consider taking 200 mg magnesium in the morning with breakfast and 200 mg after the evening meal.  Splitting the dose by 12 hours should help avoid osmotic diarrhea.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 14th, 2014 at 12:51pm
Regarding the requirement to maintain a bailout supply of oxygen when the anti-inflammatory regimen is working so well to prevent CH...  I've still got mine...

Granted it's welder's O2... and I do weld/braze or do some cutting with oxy-actylene...  I also use it when I pull one of my annual Delta-Sierra moves and stop taking the entire regimen to test my 25(OH)D reserves... 

The CH beast is still there waiting and eager to jump ugly when my 25(OH)D reserves drop to the tipping point...  7-8 days w/o vitamin D3 and the rest of the regimen.

When that happens, as Michael said, a mild hit that would have been a tolerable a few years ago becomes very frightening...  even when I knew it would happen.  That's when my M60 "roadie" that I keep in the laundry room and refill from the welder's O2 cylinder comes in very handy...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 15th, 2014 at 2:42am
Thanks Batch,  hadn't thought of that.
   just come off my first real cycle in over a year !
titrated up for a couple of weeks of d3 but it didn't stop it.
I was having 3-4 hits a day, but nothing over kip 6.
red bull squashed them most of the time, but those blessed 1.00 am hits got my sleep pattern all mucked up, so popped a 50 mg imigran at about 11.00pm before bed for the last week of it and I slept thru the nite like a baby.
kept a diary this time, lasted for 15 days, then just disappeared.  will visit the doctors next week and get my levels tested, I'm sure there up, probably around 250 nmol.
might try and maintain the level there, rather than 210 where I was.
I'll try that idea of splitting the magnesium dose with one in the morning and one at nite and see if that helps, I was sort of thinking that a 225 tablet and the rest in diet was the only way I could definitely get that 400 mg per day level.  I also have only been getting my calcium from the multi ( 200mg) as I thought my diet was sufficient, but I might take a 200mg of calcium as well.
Over all though, while it's not a welcome thing to go into cycle, the intensity was about half of my last true cycle, in January 2013, I started taking the regime about June 2013.  I got off verapamil in the beginning of may this year, so ive changed a few things I suppose !  don't want to go back on verapamil either as I have low-ish blood pressure, ( 120 / 78  tested last week ) or should I say, when I take verapamil, it seems to drop dramatically.
so, out of cycle now,  ;D  and i'll keep a higher d3 level than before and i'll see what happens when the beast returns.
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 15th, 2014 at 12:42pm
Colin,

Thanks for the feedback...  Do keep us posted on splitting the daily magnesium intake by 12 hours.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 16th, 2014 at 3:57am
Well spoke to soon !
  been 1 week since I thought my cycle finished, then BAM,
1-5 and 7 am last night !  only kip 3-4 and red bull nailed them, but cant figure what and why !
any ways, started the magnesium split this morning batch, only got 225mg tablets on hand, but will try and get some 200mg ones Monday,  i'll let you know if I tolerate them.

cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 16th, 2014 at 1:00pm
Hey Colin,

Thanks for the update...  There's nothing wrong with a total of 450 to 500 mg/day supplemental magnesium as long as things don't get to fluid. 

There's also nothing wrong with taking a 50,000 IU loading dose to see if it stops the rogue hits.  Knowing your actual 25(OH)D serum concentration would help.

Vitamin A (retinol) is an essential part of the anti-inflammatory regimen as it supports genetic expression.  Isomers of retinoic acid (RA) act as hormones to affect gene expression and thereby influence numerous physiological processes.

Accordingly, you also might want to read through the Supplemental Facts label on your multi-vitamin to make sure you're getting enough vitamin A (retinol) each day.  It should read something like the following:

"Vitamin A 2,500 I.U. 50% as Beta Carotene - 40%"

Good sources of vitamin A include Puritan's Pride - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Your local chemist/pharmacist should be able to find you some vitamin A with listed RAE (retinol activity equivalents).  You're looking for 3000 IU/day.  If they only have vitamin A (RAE) at 10,000 IU, take one every 3 days.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 16th, 2014 at 6:02pm

wrote on Aug 15th, 2014 at 2:42am:
will visit the doctors next week and get my levels tested, I'm sure there up, probably around 250 nmol.
That would be equivalent to 100 ng/ml


Quote:
The human body is usually unable to achieve 25(OH)D levels above 100 ng/ml on UVB exposure alone3. There are no studies to date to suggest that 25(OH)D levels over 100 ng/ml are beneficial, so the Vitamin D Council believes that the upper limit should be set at 100 ng/ml.

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Dr Stasha Gominak warns against levels above 80 ng/ml. She has observed that it causes decline in her patients' sleep, which she believes is essential for preventing headache and neurological conditions:
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Personally, I would decrease vitamin D AND make extra-sure that I was getting all necessary cofactors that regulate Vitamin D.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 16th, 2014 at 10:52pm
Hi batch,  my supplement source of vit A is currently from the Kirkland mature multi, the same as you take,  are you suggesting to maybe add to that, is that sufficient !
Im going to get tested next week, so it will be interesting.
but I am going to concentrate on the supplements, by as mentioned the splitting of the magnesium tablest ( so far so good ) plus I am going to re start taking calcium, as I was getting 220 mg in the kirland muti and thought I had a high general calcium intake. I did read that if you are taking higher doses od vit d that your calcium intake should be up around 1000-1200 mg daily ?
Feisty, as batch has recently posted, that some of us need to get our levels up to 250 nmol ( 100ng) to achieve a pain free status. some here that have gone pain free do so easily, but some of us have to go that high. Its trial and error, otherwise everyone, not just the 60 % of those on the regime would go pain free. It is well short of intoxication levels, and at 80ng ( 200 nmol ) I was not pain free, but titrating up from that level earlier this year in January, killed the shadows off.  The big problem feisty is that what we are doing, there are not only any studies to say vit d levels above 100 ng ( 250 nmol ) have any benefits as you say, but there are also no studies to say that keeping the levels at 80 ng ( 200 nmol ) do any good either, there are no official papers or studies to confirm any thing that we are doing. Dr Gominak's lectures were great and I watched them with interest, but I must point out, that at no point did she mention cluster headaches ! her main reference was sleep, now I believe that their is a link, but while my D levels were at her recommended level of 80 ng ( 200 nmol ) and I had completed a course of the recommended B plus its called down under, I still got hits.
It seems I fall into the bracket that the regime dramatically reduces its intensity, and maybe regularity, But its extremely hard as an episodic to know exactly when im supposed to get cycles. Last year, every 3 months I felt symptoms of a cycle, but they didn't really break through, in other words, light shadows, with sinus type sensations with heat flushing, But it seemed that the D3 regime was keeping it at bay, the January episode was different, much heavier shadows, but titrating up totally killed it off. last month, heavy shadows returned for a whole month and titrating up for 2 weeks didn't kill it off, then 28th of july I went into full blown cycle, but the intensity was much much less than my last full on cycle, January 2013. I would rate it at about 50 % better ( average kip 5 ).
Some where amongst all this, there is an answer ! im positive of that, whether it be the actual vit d levels or its supplements, I don't know,  but I do know one thing, and that is that everyone reacts differently, otherwise everyone would be pain free ! so its just a case of tweeking everything to find that balance to get you pain free.
similarly, I don't believe that everyone will go pain free at 80 ng ( 200 nmol ) as dr Gominak states,  or by being at or over 100 ng ( 250 nmol )  its just not that simple.....
The only difference for me has been I went off verapamil 3 months ago, to be stand alone on the regime, maybe I need to be on both to achieve a pain free state, who knows, but I'm certainly tweeking things around to try and get to that point !  I sure do envy the "60" percenters  on the regime that go pain free, its sounds like a good club to be in   ;D   and one I intend on joining very soon    ;)
regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 17th, 2014 at 3:02pm
Thanks for your reply Colin. It's really great that you have a solid understanding of the risks and benefits of this regime. [smiley=thumbup.gif] Living with pain and conventional medications have their risks too so I understand your choice to cautiously "titrate".


wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 10:52pm:
I am going to concentrate on the supplements, by as mentioned the splitting of the magnesium tablest ( so far so good )
This is not a low cost supplement but it's a really great formulation that is taken mixed in a liquid that would be a good option for those who want to split, etc. It's available at health food stores near me that have large supplement departments:

Natural Vitality, Natural Calm
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wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 10:52pm:
It seems I fall into the bracket that the regime dramatically reduces its intensity, and maybe regularity, But its extremely hard as an episodic to know exactly when im supposed to get cycles. Last year, every 3 months I felt symptoms of a cycle, but they didn't really break through, in other words, light shadows, with sinus type sensations with heat flushing,
I hear you on this. Dh's CH seems to be tapering and we don't know if it's the end of the episode or the D3. And like you, he has experienced a cycle that was mostly shadows (last fall). It was confusing because he didn't really realize that he was in cycle.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 17th, 2014 at 3:34pm
Well, here's an update of my dh's results so far. His cycle started June 24, approx 8 weeks ago. He's never had a cycle in the summer (usually October), that has lasted this long (usually 3-4 weeks), or been this bad (2-3 attacks per night much of the cycle, some very long attacks).

Dh started Batch's Anti-Inflammatory Regimen 28 days ago (except it has been lacking boron, which was not available locally or included in the multi I purchased. dh was taking honey as a source of boron but he will start a boron supplement as soon at it arrives). Based on Batch's advice, dh did an accelerated loading schedule in the first two weeks. He has taken a total of 580,000 IU of D3 within the 28 days.

When he started the Regimen, dh was getting 2-3 attacks per night and they were pretty brutal. After 14 days of the Regimen, dh's attacks dropped down to one per night. On day 21, he had a single pain-free night. Then within the last week, the attacks have been one per night, and milder, with pain-free nights on days 26 & 27 (last two nights :) ). At this point, it's possible that dh's cycle is ending naturally, but the pattern of CH intensity seems to correspond with the pattern of D3 loading.

It's day 28 so dh did the 25(OH)D blood test that we will mail into GrassrootsHealth. When we receive the results we will fill in Batch's survey.

I am really hoping that it's the Regimen that is contributing to the pain reduction so that we have a long-term prevention solution. Thank you Batch for the work that you have done on this.

There are so many reasons to take the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen other than CH, so I and my children (modified) are taking it as well.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 17th, 2014 at 3:52pm
Colin, Feisty,

Interesting posts.  Let's start with the optimum serum concentration of 25(OH)D...  I agree with Dr. Gominak that 70 to 80 ng/mL, (175 to 200 nmol/L) is a good target range...  That said, the cluster headache syndrome has much higher pain levels than the migraineurs she treats... and by inference, higher levels of neurogenic inflammation.

Moreover, we have a good number of chronic CH'ers who report they need to keep their 25(OH)D above 100 ng/mL, (250 nmol/L) to achieve adequate CH prevention. 

Among them are a handful of chronic CH'ers, refractory to other Rx preventatives, who need to maintain their 25(OH)D around 150 ng/mL, (375 nmol/L) under a physician's supervision to stay pain free.  No comments about sleep problems from them...  On the contrary, they all report enjoying pain free sleep.

Regarding studies of people maintaining 25(OH)D serum concentrations above 100 ng/mL...  There are at least two...

Both studies dealt with RRMS patients.  In one study, they maintained their serum 25(OH)D over 100 ng/mL for three months peaking at 164 ng/mL, (410 nmol/L) with no ill effects and a significant reduction in MS outbreaks. 

Their total serum calcium stayed well withing the normal reference range and there PTH was at the low end of its normal reference range as expected.  See 2009CMSC_Symposium15_Burton.pdf for details. 

Regarding the vitamin A (retinol).  I've been taking the Kirkland brand Mature Mult with no problems for well over a year so I'm assuming it provides sufficient vitamin A (retinol) to support the essential genetic expression activity associated with vitamin D3. 

That said, there have been a few CH'ers who didn't go completely pain free until they took some additional vitamin A (retinol), usually the vitamin A&D formulation from Puritan's Pride.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 17th, 2014 at 4:40pm
Very useful information Batch - thank you. You're confirming other things that I've read about optimum serum concentration of 25(OH)D - that higher levels may be needed for therapeutic benefit than for general health.

I hope that the medical community embraces the Regimen as a treatment for CH so that medical testing and supervision becomes widely available when higher levels of supplementation are needed. It's so strange to me that dh was prescribed dangerous narcotic pain medications for CH when he was living in the US (that didn't even work), but not offered oxygen or supplements. I'm glad to read that some CH sufferers are getting medical supervision for higher dosing levels, but I'm not optimistic that our "minimalist" health care system here in Canada would provide that  :-/. The policy in this province is to NOT pay for 25(OH)D testing even if a doctor orders the test - many Canadian sufferers would have to pay approx. $240/yr to have testing every 3 months just to monitor their 25(OH)D levels.

Well worth it if the Regimen proves to be effective, of course. And much cheaper than oxygen which we don't have coverage for from private insurance or government funded health care.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 18th, 2014 at 12:59am
Thanks batch for your comments,
  well, Im game to try anything !   LOL
So can you clarify something for me. the kirklands mature  is 2500iu and states its 50 % of daily intake requirement,
is this the retinol form ? or the beta-carotene form
from what im reading, the suggested daily intake for over 51 male varies depending on what type it is,
for example,  900 mcg RAE is equivalent to 3000 iu if its derived from retinol
but 900 mcg RAE is also equivalent to 6000iu from beta-carotene from supplements.
reading on its different from food intake too.
So I guess im asking whats the safe level for A, and if I keep going with the kirklands, ( 2500iu) depending on its form, what extra can I take ?
we have a new vitamin shop opened up the road, not for my general regime items, but im sure I could get an additional vit A from them to try.
apologies for the continual questions batch, im just figuring with exact info, if it works for me, it will be easy to note and specifically pass it on for reference.
thanks in advance
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 18th, 2014 at 2:11pm
Not Batch but...


Quote:
the kirklands mature  is 2500iu and states its 50 % of daily intake requirement,
is this the retinol form ? or the beta-carotene form

Kirkland Mature Multi has:
Vitamin A 2,500 I.U. as Beta Carotene
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Quote:
So I guess im asking whats the safe level for A
There is no agreement on this from my reading. But here's a summary of one line of thinking:


Quote:
excess vitamin A only causes problems against a backdrop of vitamin D deficiency. In his excellent article Vitamin A on Trial: Does Vitamin A Cause Osteoporosis, researcher Chris Masterjohn summarizes evidence demonstrating that vitamin D decreases the toxicity of and increases the dietary requirement for vitamin A. Studies show that supplementing with vitamin D radically increases the toxicity threshold of vitamin A. In a hypothetical 160 lb. person, vitamin D supplementation increases the toxicity threshold of vitamin A to more than 200,000 IU/d. You’d have to eat 22 ounces of beef liver or take 5 TBS of high vitamin [cod liver oil] each day to get this amount. Not likely!

To meet vitamin A needs (assuming you’re not up for eating organ meats), I recommend taking high vitamin cod liver oil (CLO) to provide a dose of 10-15,000 IU per day.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 18th, 2014 at 3:06pm
Hey Colin,

Good questions.  I don't have all the answers... but I suspect the RDA for vitamin A is conservatively low.  Like vitamin D3 there haven't been any studies done to determine toxic doses as that would be unethical. 

Also like vitamin D3, the Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL): maximum daily intake of vitamin A (retinol) unlikely to cause adverse health effects was probably influenced by clinical observations of obvious overdoses that resulted in a toxic response.

In talking with several physicians, endocrinologists and reading a lot of vitamin A related articles...  the basic rule on supplementing with vitamin A (retinol) is "A little vitamin A is good and too much isn't."  The trick is placing a value on how much vitamin A (retinol) is enough and how much is too much.

To that end, I've found the following link very helpful:

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It points out that the Institute of Medicine has stated that vitamin A is safe at the No Observed Adverse Effect Level (NOAEL) of 10,000 IU and safe below the Lowest Observed Adverse Effect Level (LOAEL), which is 21,600 IU.

Although it's very safe to stick with the published RDA of 900 mcg (3,000 IU) for men and 700 mcg (2,333 IU) for women,  a daily intake of 10,000 IU vitamin A (retinol) also appears quite safe.

The above link also points to the requirement for considerably larger loading doses of vitamin A (retinol) if a vitamin A (retinol) deficiency exists.

Regarding how much vitamin A Retinol Activity Equivalents (RAE) are contained in the Kirkland brand of Mature Multi...  if 50% is listed as carotene... I'm assuming the other 50% is retinol. 

Like vitamin D3, retinol is lipophilic... It likes fats... so it tends to have a longer half-life.  As such, taking 10,000 IU of vitamin A (retinol) every other day should more than supplement the ammount available in the Mature Multi.

Finally, as a rule, and with the exception of vitamin D3 dosing which is clearly higher than the IOM recommends for an RDA at 400 IU/day, I've kept the other supplement dosing in the anti-inflammatory regimen at or below RDA. 

I've done this to limit possible controversies over taking this regimen.

Hope this helps answer your questions.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 18th, 2014 at 3:15pm

Batch wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 3:06pm:
Regarding how much vitamin A Retinol Activity Equivalents (RAE) are contained in the Kirkland brand of Mature Multi...  if 50% is listed as carotene... I'm assuming the other 50% is retinol. 
I think the listing on that site is confusing - I believe the 50% for Vitamin A refers to the "% daily value", not the % "as carotene". I'm assuming it's 100% "as carotene".

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 18th, 2014 at 7:54pm
Doh!  I'm the one with a degree in chemistry... and organic chemistry was my strong suit...  I should have explained my earlier comments more carefully.

Vitamin A can come in different forms often referred to as "retinoids" and "carotenoids"...  The retinoids can come as an acid, (retinoic acid), an aldehyde, (retinaldehyde) or as a and ester such as (retinyl palmitate) or (retinyl acetate).  The most common carotenoid is beta carotene.

Part of the confusion with Mature Multi appears to be due to different formulations in different countries.

Here in the US, the vitamin A (retinoid) content of Mature Multi is listed as an acetate.  The Supplemental Facts label indicates 2500 IU vitamin A, of which 40% is in the form of beta carotene, a provitamin.  The total daily value is 50%.

As I indicated earlier, this much retinyl acetate in the Mature Multi is working just fine for me...  Taking more, up to 10,000 IU/day, won't hurt and may help make the difference for some CH'ers between klingon shadows and being totally CH pain free.

'Hope this clears up the confusion.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 18th, 2014 at 11:31pm
Hi batch,  yep pretty clear !
    as with previous posts, im just trying to "tweek" the regime to see if additional supplements is the answer for me to go pain free. Ive been at 203 nmol and 230 nmol and the shadows and break thru attacks came.
even though im going to get tested next week and my cycle, apart from one night when it came back, which seems to have been its final " parting fling " has now gone, its always going to be hard to say what works until another episode rears its damn head.
So, the plan is..... get back down to 80ng ( 100 nmol) as previously in January, being at this level and titrating up heavily for 2 weeks killed the shadows dead in there tracks !
.....  split the magnesium ( as I am doing now) which after 3 days, so far is doing ok,  start taking more calcium, other than the multi ( 220mg) so my magnesium intake will match my calcium intake and lastly, lift my Vit A intake up a touch to make sure im getting sufficient, but certainly not above the recommended daily intake.
When I get my Vit d 25 ohd done next week, i'll also ask the doctor for my B, A and magnesium to be tested as well, just for interest.
Im figuring Batch, that if I pay attention to detail now, then should a cycle return, im in a better position to make changes from there, knowing what my actual levels of vit D and supplements are.  got to be an answer there somewhere   ;D
  just one parting question Batch, it took 2 weeks of titrating up, 20,000iu per day with a once a week loading dose of 50,000iu, to go from 203 nmol to 233 nmol, how many days would it take without taking vit D to drop that much ? ive heard you talk of half life etc but not really understood properly, and I no you occasionally do this for "scientific" reasons  ;D    but would be interested in your opinion on this.
sorry for piling on the questions, I seem to be turning into a "problem child "
thanks in advance
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 19th, 2014 at 5:22am
Colin,

The simple answer to your question is stay at a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 200 to 230 nmol/L year round.  That way there's no need to titrate up on vitamin D3 or take loading doses when your next cycle comes around.  When it does... it will likely be a non-event and you'll sail through it PF.

200 to 230 nmol/L is a safe and healthy serum concentration of 25(OH)D so there's no need to let it drop.  The health benefits are numerous and too great to ignore.

Take care and please keep me posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 19th, 2014 at 8:01am
Hi batch,
in January, I shadowed at 200nmol but titrating up got rid of them, last month at 230 nmol I shadowed and titrating up didn't work and a cycle broke thru,  so im picking i'de be at around 260 plus at the minute.
so I either stay there, or go back down to 200 nmol where if the shadows come titrating seemed to work !
or if I do show about 260nmol, then maybe that's where I need to be.  just unsure what level to stay at....
cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 19th, 2014 at 7:16pm
Colin,

Good questions...  First things first... I've looked over your posts and don't see any indication of vitamin B 50... Have you started the three month course of vitamin B 50?

Keeping your 25(OH)D between 200 and 250 nmol/L would appear to be the best course of action.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Aug 20th, 2014 at 4:09am
Hi batch, yes, back in April,( my last blood test )  I took a month of Blackmores  mega B,  which is the nearest thing down under  to your b 50.
reason I only took it for a month, is that my doctor always tested my vitamin b12 with every blood test, It was rising quite sharply every three months just taking the multi and was at just under 600 pmol/L in febuary, but I still took a month of mega B anyway. I would definitely be well over the top range ( 700 pmol/L ) now after a month of mega b.
It was interesting in the fact that, just taking the multi pill from the regime, my b12 was rising over 200pmol/L every 3 months. she also does folate, which im 3 times there deficiency level 945 nmol...
so I was picking 1 month would have been enough considering where my levels were.......  ?
colin


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 20th, 2014 at 6:37pm
Colin,

It looks like you have the bases covered with respect to the vitamin B 50.  That leaves diet after tuning the rest of the vitamin D3 cofactors.

Cutting out sugar and limiting or eliminating glutens, then adding GOMBS to your diet may help.  Greens, Onions, Mushrooms, Beans-Berries and Seeds-Nuts...  A handful of each a day should be sufficient.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Aug 22nd, 2014 at 6:42pm
After the Relpax kicked in last night, I joined this forum and read most of this thread. Soon as I was able this morning, I was off to the health food store for some D3 5000IU and some 1200mg fish oil☺. Spent most of the day today reading what I didnt read of the thread last night.

Have to say im excited to try the regime as nothing else other than hard percriptions has worked for me....of course I've also been misdiagnosed everytime I've visited a doctor for my episodic clusters since they started when I was in the 7th grade. Im now 28 and it wasnt until about 3-4 years ago I discovered what I actually had, clusters!

My attacks are about 5-6 weeks long every other year. 99% of the time the headache starts about 20 minutes after I wake up every morning for work. I take a few pills, suffer for about an hour and a half, then im good for the rest of my day. Do this for 5-6 weeks a year, either in late winter/early spring or late summer/early fall, then im clear for a year to 2 years....then it starts all over again...same pain...same time...same everything.

Anyway, I didnt have CHs earlier this year, so I knew I would later this year. Sure enough, 2 weeks ago on Monday morning I knew they were coming soon...Tuesday morning it hit like a rock. Never had them hit in August before, but none the less they are here. 

I'll be starting the regime with my supper here shortly. With 3-4 weeks left of my cycle I have high hopes for some relief. Not sure I can do the magnesium right away. I tried 250mg of magnesium oxide last week as my doctor told me it could help with migranes😈. After reading around some first, I figured I'd have nothing to lose by trying it. Both days I had a dull headache all day long just off 1 250mg in the morning....not a major deal like the clusters, but I didnt like it and it showed no positive results by itself.

Im gonna start with fish oil and D3 and go from there.

Glad to be part of the forum and I'll be back!
Special thanks to Batch as well!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dauber on Aug 23rd, 2014 at 12:10am
Batch, I saw you mention vitamin D3 allergy in another post. Have you ever corresponded with someone who has had that very unfortunate problem? What do you recommend that a CCH sufferer with a D3 allergy do to rectify the problem? Are there alternatives? Is there a way to cancel out the allergic reaction so that D3 can then be taken safely with no hives or itchy swelling throat? To me that is a million dollar question.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 23rd, 2014 at 1:54pm
Hey Dauber,

Great question. The first thing I would suggest is find an immunologist or endocrinologist expert in treating patients with vitamin D3 deficiencies...  I would also hold off on taking vitamin D3 supplements... but take the rest of the anti-inflammatory regimen.

A key discriminator if a vitamin D3 allergy is suspected, is cutaneous vitamin D3...  In other words, if exposure to the UVB in sunshine without sunblock does not produce an allergic reaction, look for another cause of the allergic reaction and try to get as much sunshine as possible without sunblock.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 23rd, 2014 at 6:05pm
Sledgehammer

Welcome to the anti-inflammatory regimen...  If there's no reaction to the first dose of vitamin D3, check out the vitamin D3 loading schedule at the following link:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

It's about half way down...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Aug 24th, 2014 at 11:12am
I believe its already working!  I took 5000IU on friday with no reaction.  Saturday morning I took 10000IU with breakfast. Had a faint CH on the way to daughters 9:00AM soccer game....stopped at store and grabbed a Monster Energy drink with Turine and it knocked it out less than halfway through the can...humm never happened that fast before.  Then about lunch yesterday I had another faint CH, Energy drink took care of it too. At supper I took 10000IU more of D3 for a total of 20,000 yesterday....doses 12 hours apart. Also had 4 michelob ultra last...usually after 1 or 2 they trigger a CH, but none last night.

This morning I took 10000IU with breakfast.  Not even a faint headache today.  8-)

We'll see what the next few days hold.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 25th, 2014 at 3:05pm
Doing my happy dance because something is working.  [smiley=smug.gif]

Weeks 1 & 2 during accelerating loading doses:
2-3 attacks per night
Week 3:
1 attack per night
Week 4:
3 pain-free nights
Week 5:
5 pain-free nights

My husband is starting to become himself again. Thank you Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mjedwards409 on Aug 25th, 2014 at 8:57pm
Hey everyone!  It's been a bit since I've posted. (Which is a good sign)  Aside from the insurance company denying coverage for my wife's MRI, (different thread altogether), everything else is going great.  Today marks 28 straight days PF!  After 2 weeks she had a beer, (I was nervous), and was fine.  Since then she's had a beer, 2 beers, a few glasses of wine, and all is well!!

This past weekend we went out of town for 3 days and she missed the regimen 3 days in a row. (We left the vitamins at home and honestly didn't even realize she was skipping it until the 3rd day)  No pain at all but we restarted the regimen tonight.

Frankly this doesn't even cross our minds anymore. (Which is amazing considering we were almost a month straight getting NO sleep because of these things)  I know its strongly recommended that she get a D3 test, but she started a new job and she has ZERO extra time to go in for a physical.  We will get her one as soon as we possibly can.  In the meantime, our priority is her well-being, which she has right now.

Just like expected the HA Specialist said that the vitamins were probably just a placebo effect.  (The same specialists that said women couldn't get cluster headaches)  Either way, we are glad she is doing well now.  We might knock the D3 down to 5,000iu and the Magnesium Citrate down to 250mg, (Those things are horse pills, and expensive), just to see how she does.  If these are indeed CH then it appears she may be out of cycle along with the help from the vitamins. (Or else I imagine they might have reappeared after 3 days of no pills)

Thanks again everyone for the help.  I don't want to abandon everyone that has helped, but man do I hope that we don't have to go through this again.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Aug 26th, 2014 at 2:48am
Hi mjedwards,
that is great news and i enjoyed reading your post as it proves once again that Batch's D3 regimen is the way to go. Batch probably wouldn't recomend going down to 5000iu/day D3, especially that soon after starting the regimen. I know that if i reduce my D3 intake from 10000iu/day, the beast returns. I did try when i started the regimen and I learned my lesson, it's 10000iu/day now and happy to stay there.
All the best
:)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 26th, 2014 at 10:45am

Mjedwards409 wrote on Aug 25th, 2014 at 8:57pm:
I know its strongly recommended that she get a D3 test, but she started a new job and she has ZERO extra time to go in for a physical.
We did it by mail, for the same reason:
START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

So pleased this is working for your wife!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Aug 29th, 2014 at 1:38pm
Just wanted to sign in and give my one week update since starting the regime.

So far so good! I did have a couple shadows, but nothing that I couldnt deal with like usual. I took 20000 IU a day for 3 days, then cut it back to 10000IU until I can get my test done. I work outside and have my whole life, so I didnt want to over do it on the D3. Im also still on 2400mg of fish oil a day and 1 multi vitiam.  Im 28 years old and have never took any vitiams before in my life....always been healty as an Ox and figured I didnt need them.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Fitzer on Aug 31st, 2014 at 11:25pm
Hello all! Long time lurker, but this is my first post on these boards. Thought I would share my experience on the regimen thus far and possibly get some advice.

Started the regimen about 10 days ago and didn't do the loading dose at first, just taking 20,000 IU of D3 with the rest of the supplements. Headaches got worse for the first few days and I believe it was possibly due to the calcium interfering with my verapamil. So I eliminated the calcium as I had seen others with the same problem do. Felt some relief after a couple days and then decided to do the 50,000 IU loading dose on day 6. Had a pretty good following day, but that may have been coincidental. And the past couple days have pretty much returned to normal for me, not much improvement.

I know I need to to get my blood work done so I can find out where my vitamin d levels are, and I am going to work on getting that done this week. But anyway, I guess my biggest question is if I could try another 50,000 IU loading dose sooner, as that seemed to have possibly helped me a few days ago.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Sep 1st, 2014 at 2:21am
Hey Fitzer, if I remember correctly,  Batch recommends 500000 to 600000 iu D3 over the 1st month of the regimen so as to build it up to a therapeutic level.
When I started the regimen, there was a change in the patterns of my headaches, they even changed side for a while. It sounds like the regimen is having some effects on you so you could be one of the 80% for whom it works.
If you're taking 20000 iu/day, you could take 1 loading dose/week for 3 weeks, that would bring you to 600000 iu in a month.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 9:11pm

feisty wrote on Aug 25th, 2014 at 3:05pm:
Doing my happy dance because something is working.  [smiley=smug.gif]

Weeks 1 & 2 during accelerating loading doses:
2-3 attacks per night
Week 3:
1 attack per night
Week 4:
3 pain-free nights
Week 5:
5 pain-free nights

My husband is starting to become himself again. Thank you Batch.
Husband has been pain free for 2 weeks now  ;D

Question: I know this would be very hard to tell, but does anyone have experience to comment on how one might tell the difference between a cycle ending "naturally" vs ending due to the D3? In my husband's case the cycle didn't end "early", but the cycle itself was so much harsher and at a different time of year than previous ones that it's hard to compare.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 3rd, 2014 at 1:32am

feisty wrote on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 9:11pm:
Husband has been pain free for 2 weeks now  ;D

Question: I know this would be very hard to tell, but does anyone have experience to comment on how one might tell the difference between a cycle ending "naturally" vs ending due to the D3? In my husband's case the cycle didn't end "early", but the cycle itself was so much harsher and at a different time of year than previous ones that it's hard to compare.


First off, great news on your husband being pain free for 2 weeks, hope the whole family is enjoying the difference it makes.

As to telling the difference between the end of a cycle and it being the D3 that is effective there is probably only one way to tell which is to stop the D3 and see if the pain returns. I can imagine that your husband might not be too keen to try this option.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 3rd, 2014 at 3:04pm

Mike NZ wrote on Sep 3rd, 2014 at 1:32am:
First off, great news on your husband being pain free for 2 weeks, hope the whole family is enjoying the difference it makes.
Thank you Mike. We are enjoying the difference...it is disturbing how much energy CH takes, and really great when that energy is liberated :) .


Mike NZ wrote on Sep 3rd, 2014 at 1:32am:
As to telling the difference between the end of a cycle and it being the D3 that is effective there is probably only one way to tell which is to stop the D3 and see if the pain returns.
I'm assuming that wouldn't work as my husband is an episodic sufferer, and he typically only gets a cycle once a year (although he may have had two "shadow-only" atypical cycles last fall/winter).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 3rd, 2014 at 4:25pm
OK, I could use some help with figuring out whether the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen may be causing a symptom for my husband. Yesterday, he said that he had woken at 3 AM with heart palpitations (unpleasant awareness of his heart pounding) for the previous three nights.

A couple of years ago he did have a doctor notice a heart sound with a stethoscope which makes me wonder if he has Mitral Valve Prolapse, but that has not been diagnosed, and he has not regularly had heart palpitations. He started the Regimen July 21, and had his last headache Aug 20. He is not taking any medications and he can't think of any other thing that has changed recently.

I found these anecdotes:
  • CrankieFrankie discontinued the Regimen after getting anxiety and heart palpitations:
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  • Articles about heart palpitations being triggered by D3 supplementation with inadequate magnesium:
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Could lack of magnesium combined with high Vitamin D3 be causing night-time waking with palpitations? I see that my husband's magnesium dose is a little low (375 mg) compared to Batch's recommendation (400-500 mg).

My husband is taking:
  • Centrum Men 50+ | START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE (includes 125 mg magnesium)
  • Jamieson Magnesium 250 mg
  • Nature's Bounty, Ultra Strength D3-10,000 IU
  • Jamieson B Complex 50 mg
  • Life Extension, Super K with Advanced K2
  • Jamieson Vitamin A 10,000 IU
  • Nature's Bounty Omega-3 Fish Oil 1000 mg
  • Now Foods, Boron 3 mg
  • Jamieson Probiotic 10 Billion
  • Jamieson Exxtra-C 500 mg

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 4th, 2014 at 2:18pm
Hey Ksenia,

Glad to hear you're doing the happy dance and that your husband is enjoying the benefits of the anti-inflammatory regimen.

The short and belated answer to both of your earlier questions in this thread is yes... The anti-inflammatory regimen as your husband was taking it, was likely contributing to his heart palpitations... and insufficient  magnesium was likely the culprit. Please let me explain my answers.

The problem is your husband was not getting enough magnesium compared to his calcium intake.  This regimen calls for a minimum of 400 mg/day.  What happened was the extra vitamin D3 he was taking during the loading schedule was consuming the available magnesium, taking it out of the blood serum solution...

That created a calcium - magnesium imbalance with more calcium than magnesium in the blood serum.  As calcium is essential in muscle contraction and magnesium is equally essential in muscle relaxation, your husband's heat muscles were not relaxing fast enough and this was more than likely the cause of his heart palpitations.

The solution is simple if this happens again...  Have your husband take a second 250 mg Jamieson Magnesium tablet in the morning and don't change anything else.  I'm assuming your husband is taking the rest of the regimen in with the evening meal.  Splitting the magnesium doses by 6 to 8 hours should help prevent osmotic diarrhea... loose as a goose... and stop the palpitations.

Attributing causality to the cessation of your husband's CH after starting the anti-inflammatory regimen as an episodic CH'er is always a problem when that cessation occurs near the end of a "normal" cycle.  In other words, was it the regimen or just end of cycle?

The best way of determining causality in this case is to have your husband stay on this regimen year round.   That way when the next cycle comes around it should be a non-event.

Staying on this regimen year round has many other health advantages that are too good to pass up.  The risks of prostate cancer, Alzheimer's and a long list of other health issues are significantly reduced if people maintain a 25(OH)D above 60 ng/mL.  Have you started this regimen?

MJ, regarding the HA Specialist saying your response to this regimen was due to a placebo effect...  Horse Feathers! 

The placebo effect for cluster headache is very low compared to other medical problems...  for obvious reasons.... You can't wish away CH or prevent them with sugar pills...

With a raw efficacy of 60% for a sustained pain free end point response to the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing CH, this response is well beyond the highest possible placebo effect in CH of 14% to 43%.  The lowest value was reported using the strict endpoint; cessation of headache attacks.  Nilsson Remahl AI, Laudon Meyer E, Cordonnier C, Goadsby PJ. Placebo response in cluster headache trials: a review. Cephalalgia. 2003 Sep;23(7):504-10.

In other words... the odds are better than 4 to 1 the cessation of your CH was due to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Show the above link to your HA specialist...

For the old timers reading this... you'll note that the good doctor Peter Goadsby was a contributor in this article.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 4th, 2014 at 4:00pm
I appreciate your reply Batch!

Your explanation of the magnesium-calcium-palpitations connection makes sense. I will up my husband's magnesium dose and see if he continues to get palpitations. I'll bring it up to a daily dose of 500 mg (instead of the current 375 mg).

I am encouraging my husband to stay on the Regimen for over a year - then we will know for sure if the Regimen is working. I suspect it is working because I think that the reason that he had a "shadows-only" cycle last fall was that I was supplementing him with D3 (at lower doses), but I stopped so the CH came back this summer. Also, the pattern of how my husband's CH declined was so correlated to the loading schedule of the D3 in the Regimen more recently. I am eager to see what his serum level was at the end of the 4 weeks (waiting for results).

I am taking the Regimen (5000 IU D3/daily) and my children are taking a modified version too! I'm a true believer not just because of my husband's CH being gone but because of all the research that Batch, and Stasha Gominak, and other health advocates have presented. My son has ADHD, sleep issues, and chronic back pain - all of which have been show to be correlated with D3 in various studies. So I'm optimistic.

It is really cool that the placebo effect has been quantified for CH - this is really useful info for those who want to evaluate treatments.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Sep 5th, 2014 at 1:55pm
2 weeks on the regimen, I think my cluster cycle is over! I been taking 10,000IU of D3 for the last week and couple of days, haven't even had a shadow at all. I drunk several alcoholic drinks on Labor day weekend and not even a hint of a headache.

I'm going to cut my D3 back to 5000IU tomorrow and see what happens.  I'm still on the 2400mg of omega fish oil and Centrum multivitamin.




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 5th, 2014 at 6:47pm
That's great sledgehammer :) . Don't forget that the Regimen includes boron and vitamin K2 (see the link in my sig line).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 5th, 2014 at 6:48pm

sledgehammer wrote on Sep 5th, 2014 at 1:55pm:
2 weeks on the regimen, I think my cluster cycle is over!


Is it over or is the D3 just doing a great job as a preventive?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 6th, 2014 at 2:56pm
Husband took 500 mg of magnesium the past two dinners, but had unpleasant heart pounding sensations last night. He seems to tolerate 500 mg in one dose, digestion-wise.

I am going to switch the type of magnesium. His current supplement is a "magnesium complex source of oxide, malate and glycerophosphate". I've read, however, that magnesium oxide has only a 4% rate of absorption - so maybe rather than upping his dose a better formulation would be good.

I'm going to try this brand:
Doctor's Best, High Absorption Magnesium, 100% Chelated, START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE
"Albion" process chelation used for that supplement (and some others) is thought by some to have the best absorption with minimal digestive issues.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 6th, 2014 at 4:01pm
Hmmm...

I'm a little uncomfortable with the continued heart pounding after upping the magnesium dose to 500 mg/day...  The magnesium formulation your husband is presently taking sounds fine...  That said, the more expensive chelated magnesium formulations claim better absorption with fewer lower GI tract disturbances.

I've been taking the Nature Made 400 mg liquid softgels for over two years...  They're magnesium oxide but the magnesium is already in solution and absorption appears more than adequate to me.

If this condition continues... a trip to your husband's PCP or cardiologist and some blood chemistry tests would appear in order.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Sep 6th, 2014 at 9:14pm

feisty wrote on Sep 5th, 2014 at 6:47pm:
That's great sledgehammer :) . Don't forget that the Regimen includes boron and vitamin K2 (see the link in my sig line).


Thanks for the reminder! I have an opointment to get my blood work done, but its still a few weeks out. I dont want to overdo it until I see where Im at.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Sep 6th, 2014 at 9:23pm

Mike NZ wrote on Sep 5th, 2014 at 6:48pm:

sledgehammer wrote on Sep 5th, 2014 at 1:55pm:
2 weeks on the regimen, I think my cluster cycle is over!



Is it over or is the D3 just doing a great job as a preventive?


Could be either-or. In the past, my cycle has lasted 4 to 6 weeks.  I started the D3 regimen 2 weeks into my cycle. Only had a couple faint shadows the third week, which was the first week on the regimen. The fourth week and second week on the regimen has been totally pain free....which was yesterday. Today starts the first day of my fifth week.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:38am
Sledgehammer,

It really doesn't matter at this point if the cessation of your CH was due to the anti-inflammatory regimen or end of cycle.  The important thing is being pain free.

The best indication it was the regimen that got you pain free is to stay on this regimen at a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 year round.  That way when your next cycle comes around it will likely be a non-event.

The following chart illustrates data submitted by episodic CH'ers who took part in the online survey of 127 CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent their CH.  It illustrates where in their "normal" cycle the cessation of CH occurred.

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You decide...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Sep 7th, 2014 at 6:57am
I appreciate all your help, Batch!

I have no problem taking 10,000IU a day if that's what it takes, but I'd like to get my blood work done first before I take that much everyday.  I work outside in the sun everyday, and on the lake in the sun atleast 1 day a weekend.....I find it hard to believe my D3 levels would be very low with that much sun exposure, but I'll never know till my blood work is done.

My great grandfather on one side was full blooded Cherokee Indian. I have the same dark skin that he had. I've read that darker skinned peoples body naturally produce less D3 from the sun because of the pigment in their skin.....so that could be part of my answer.

I've read the symtoms of being D3 deficient, and most of them are me.

On top of the Anti Inflammatory Regimen, Ive also changed the way I eat somewhat. I've never been a healthy eater at all. Also I think I stay borderline dehydrated 80% of the time. I've drank more water in the last 3 weeks than I have all year.

One other thing and Ill quit rattleing. My lovely wife has been great through all my cycles, not sure if I could make it through sometimes without her. Anyways, we were talking the other day, I have lower back pain, sometimes not bad at all and sometimes I cant get out of bed on my own. It may just be in my head, but seems like the back pain is worse around my cluster cycle...or just right before it hits. I cant exactly remember this to be true years ago, but I know for sure it is true the last few years. 6 weeks ago, I got down bad in my lower back, for no reason at all. 1 week later my clusters started. I started the  Anti inflammatory Regimen, and both got better. No back pain and no clusters for 2 weeks.
humm :)


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:17pm
Hey Sledgehammer.

Thanks for the additional info...  CH and most back pain problems usually have something in common...  inflammation.

Reducing the neurogenic inflammation in and around the trigeminal complex is not much different than reducing the inflammation between the vertebra in the spinal column...  Both result in a cessation or significant reduction in pain.

This the biggest reason why I called this regimen anti-inflammatory. 

While you're at it, get your wife started on this regimen...  The health benefits are too good to ignore.

My wife has been taking this regimen with 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3 since December of 2010.  She had been a chronic migraineur for over 20 years at that point...  She hasn't had a singe migraine headache since then.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:31pm

Batch wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 4:01pm:
I'm a little uncomfortable with the continued heart pounding after upping the magnesium dose to 500 mg/day...

Yeah, we are too. The pounding was ongoing yesterday. We decided to discontinue the Regimen as of today to see if that stops the heart symptoms. If the pounding continues we will know that it's not related to the Regimen at least. I will continue to push for a visit to the doctor's office but he continues to claim that he can't get away from work.

In other frustrating news, I found out that the Vit D test results that took 3 long weeks seems to have been botched or something?? We did the blood spots correctly. I got this reply:

Quote:
Thank you for your recent blood spot card submission.  As part of a quality check process at [Purity Laboratory], your test was chosen to duplicate.  Unfortunately, there was not enough blood on the test to complete the process.  They have asked that you re-submit a new blood spot test card for this quality check. [then later] Thank you for your call today.  I spoke with the lab, and unfortunately, at this point, I cannot give you your husband's results.  I also spoke with our director who looked into the matter as well and could not get any additional information for me to pass on.  My deepest apologies for this extreme inconvenience.  I wish there was something we could do for you right now; there is a slight chance they will be able to release the results after additional testing for that batch, but I will not know more about this until later this week.

That seems really odd to me. It makes me wonder if his test result was unusual and they wanted to confirm? I really wanted to know THAT level because that was very close to when he became pain free. Also, if we discontinue his levels may drop and then we will lose that reference point :( . I've asked for my money back as I don't have much confidence in their procedures if they are going to botch such a simple thing and take so long to do it.

I don't know if I should fill out the Survey without the test results?

I'll keep you posted about the palpitations and whether they turn out to be related to the Regimen or not.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:48am
Feisty,

I concur with stopping the regimen for a few days to see what happens.  The 25(OH)D half-life is roughly two weeks so your husband's serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite will drop fairly rapidly.  How much vitamin D3 was your husband taking each day?

If the pounding goes away, restart the regimen with just 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus 500 mg/day magnesium... and nothing else to see what happens.

The blood spot test flumux response is confusing.  They should send you another home test kit at no cost.

Take care and please keep me posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:23pm

Batch wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:48am:
How much vitamin D3 was your husband taking each day?
He was taking the standard 10,000 IU.

If his blood level drops rapidly then we will never know what actually worked for him in terms of serum level because of the test screw up :( . It's quite a slow process to even get their blood spot card in the first place. Annoyingly, there's a lab near here that does the test, but he would need a doctor's referral for the privilege of paying for the test himself - which is bizarre - and my husband can't make time to see the doctor.


Batch wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:48am:
If the pounding goes away, restart the regimen with just 5,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus 500 mg/day magnesium... and nothing else to see what happens.
Sounds like a plan. I'll keep you posted and thanks very much for your input.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:08pm
Feisty,

Don't worry about the lab test...  As your husband had a pain free response, I'm confident his 25(OH)D serum concentration was around 80 ng/mL when he stopped taking this regimen...  This is the average response to a sustained dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... following the loading schedule.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shortstraw on Sep 16th, 2014 at 11:48pm
Just after some advice from anybody who would like to chime in.

I am nearly at the end of week 3 of the loading dose with all the required co-factors recommended by Batch (thank you again).

Unfortunately I went back into cycle (my fourth) about a week ago culminating in getting my head knocked off 3 times last night. I forgot how a seriously screwed up an experience it is to wake up into such pain!
I've never had multiple hits at night before so I guess my cycle is escalating this time. Lucky me.
I went back on my prednisone taper and verapamil yesterday so I'll guess I'll get some relief from that soon. I have maxalt and Red Bull as abortives which have both been effective so far.
It's interesting that I've gone back into cycle now as normally December (last 3 cycles)is my time (heat). I do know there is no such thing as normal when talking clusters so a change of cycle should be no great surprise.
I also thought I would be getting some impact from the regime although I do acknowledge that it is still early days. I must be one of those that takes a bit longer to respond.
I won't be doing my 1 month blood test till the end of next week so I don't know where my levels are but I did start from a pretty low base (21.6ng/ml)
Can I accelerate the loading dose more at this stage or should I wait for the new test results.
The meds should get me out of pain soon but I would prefer the D3 to be my long term and permanent response. I'm not anti meds but they and the Red Bull together are quite expensive in the long term so it is also a financial choice

I know that many of you are also in pain or have busy lives so I appreciate any responses.
Alan


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Sep 17th, 2014 at 6:46am

shortstraw wrote on Sep 16th, 2014 at 11:48pm:
I am nearly at the end of week 3 of the loading dose with all the required co-factors

Unfortunately I went back into cycle (my fourth) about a week ago 3 times last night.

Alan



Hi Alan

Don't get discouraged, it took me over 6 month to get my head some what under control!

and (at the moment) my doc's say I do not qualify as  ICCH, and are more then happy with the situation!

In essence, it might take some time to get were we would like to be, and the way might be stony -
but being over 95% pain free is a gift I have at times
stopded to believe I will ever get

And with such a simple method, with very small risks, if at all!

Michael

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shortstraw on Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:49am
Thanks Michael

I think I was in one of those black holes you sometimes fall into. Had been flattened by the night before, and as has happened to me many times before, the CH's triggered a day long pounding tension headache which took away the last of my reserves and you just want a quick fix.
Today I'm more patient, the sun is brighter and things have settled. The headache is gone and the prednisone is doing it's job (no hit last night), just a few icepicks. Now to get back to tinkering with the regime !
Thanks to MikeNZ for his constant support and propping up and of course to Batch for answering my seemingly endless questions, regardless of how stupid some of them may be.

And thank you to this site for being a place where you can have a rant and vent … and everybody gets it.

Alan

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Sep 19th, 2014 at 1:48am
I second that, keep at it alan !

question,  for those taking the regime, and pain free
  how many or who are also taking other preventatives ie
verapamil ????
I know there are a lot that the regime is working 100 % on its own, but for those that it has only dramatically reduced its effects, is verapamil or similar making you completely pain free   ?  very interested in everyones comments.
I'll quantify my question.
Ive been on the regime for about a year and a few months.
pryor to that, verapamil only, verapamil helped when I went into my next cycle, it took the extreme edge off the attacks, instead of kip 10, that cycle was kip7 average, quite noticeable.   while being on the regime and verapamil, only 240mg, any more and I fall over, January this year, heavy shadows came calling,, I was 200 nmol, I titrated up for about 2 weeks, the shadows disappeared and i didn't go into cycle, i gat tested and i was at 235 nmol.    I went off verapamil in early may, which knocked me about, in july shadows came, titrated up for two weeks again, but the cycle came !  average kip 5 for three weeks.
after tinkering with magnesium levels, calcium, fish oil, the cycle stayed.  perhaps, the combination of the regime and the relatively low dose of 240 verapamil is where i have to be ?  wont know now till nov-jan when a cycle normally rears its head. If it does, i was planning on making sure my d3 level was at 230 nmol, using prednisone on a tapered course and getting the verapamil into my system to see if the combination was indeed what killed this Januaries cycle on its arse !  verapamil on its own, just takes the edge off, but both may be my answer.
so interested to hear from others that are pain free on the regime, plus a preventative, that maybe didn't work for them until they added the vit d3 regime ????????
cheers
col

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 19th, 2014 at 3:53pm
A little update about the heart pounding sensation symptom that my husband experienced:

feisty wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
The pounding was ongoing yesterday. We decided to discontinue the Regimen as of today to see if that stops the heart symptoms. If the pounding continues we will know that it's not related to the Regimen at least.

Eleven days later, we have concluded that the heart pounding sensations were related to the Regimen. He had been getting multiple episodes for 30+ minutes at a time. Immediately after discontinuing the Regimen, the episodes reduced a lot in frequency and duration - usually just none or once per day, usually just for a few minutes. They still continue and they still are bothering him, but it's far less than before.

I wish he would see a doctor but he insists that he can't due to ongoing work crises.

He is interested in re-starting the Regimen in components, but we're thinking that we should wait until the pounding stops completely (assuming it will).

Interesting anecdotes about discontinuing the Regimen - husband quickly got a cold, and he has not been sleeping as well as he was while taking the Regimen.

Good luck to those of you who are on the Regimen! Many issues with it can be worked through and Batch has been very generous with his advice.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Sep 29th, 2014 at 10:36pm

feisty wrote on Sep 19th, 2014 at 3:53pm:
A little update about the heart pounding sensation symptom that my husband experienced:

feisty wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
The pounding was ongoing yesterday. We decided to discontinue the Regimen as of today to see if that stops the heart symptoms. If the pounding continues we will know that it's not related to the Regimen at least.

Eleven days later, we have concluded that the heart pounding sensations were related to the Regimen. He had been getting multiple episodes for 30+ minutes at a time. Immediately after discontinuing the Regimen, the episodes reduced a lot in frequency and duration - usually just none or once per day, usually just for a few minutes. They still continue and they still are bothering him, but it's far less than before.
Another update.

It's now looking like the heart symptoms are NOT related to the Regimen. It's been 19 days since my husband discontinued the entire Regimen, and he is still getting irregular and pounding heart sensations. He was concerned enough to see a general practitioner doctor today about it. Doc said it was unrelated to the regimen and has ordered various tests including ECG and 24 hr Holter.

I'm glad to know that it is not related to the Regimen. Husband is planning to resume it once the dust settles following testing.

Best to all of you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 30th, 2014 at 12:16am
Feisty,

Thanks for the latest update.  Glad to hear your husband is seeing a cardiologist and that the anti-inflammatory regimen is NOT responsible for the heart pounding.

Please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 30th, 2014 at 1:27am
Good move in getting it fully checked out. Hope all goes well with this.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Oct 1st, 2014 at 5:50pm

Batch wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 12:16am:
Feisty,

Thanks for the latest update.  Glad to hear your husband is seeing a cardiologist and that the anti-inflammatory regimen is NOT responsible for the heart pounding.

Please keep us posted.

My husband was diagnosed with atrial fibrillation last night in the ER. The cardiologist there confirmed that the supplementation was not causing his heart symptoms. Lesson learned: get heart symptoms checked out by a doctor ASAP.

I'll be starting a thread in the Cluster Headache Specific subforum of this forum because I am suspicious of links between my husband's newly discovered arrhythmia and the bad CH cycle he had this summer.

I only have reason to believe that the Regimen has helped my husband, not caused any side effects.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 2:22am
Hi feisty,
            at least they have identified an issue, that's good.
  I haven't searched back thru threads, but didn't you mention that your husband already had a specific issue with his heart ?  I seem to remember something about that.
  whether ch can be pin pointed as a cause or whether it just aggrevated  a pre existing worstening condition, I don't know, but at least now the doctors can treat this issue and any meds for ch can be cross checked with the cardiologist, then he can move forward with controlling his clusters.  Im not sure whether or not you said he was on a channel blocker, verapamil for a preventative or not, but from my knowledge of such an issue, it can mean a complete change in diet, meaning cutting out caffeine, etc etc, or the need for a pace maker, or indeed as a friend had happen to him, finding out it was directly related to an over active thyroid. 
Best way of looking at it, is that they've now diagnosed his problem, and will obviously take the appropriate measures to fix his issue, so that's got to be of some relief to finally have an answer.
good luck with everything there, can only improve from here on in.
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 12:59pm
Thanks Colin. Yes, there seem to be many causes. My husband had no known heart issues before this, and had not taken any medication for years before, only the Regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 1:03pm
I did find this article though - those whose vit D blood levels are over 100 ng/ml and who are having heart symptoms should be wary:


Quote:
The investigators found in an observational study of 132,000 subjects at Intermountain Medical Center that patients with 25(OH)D serum levels greater than 100 ng/ml were at a 2.5 times greater risk of developing atrial fibrillation. They found no increased risk of developing atrial fibrillation in levels of 0-20 ng/ml, 21-40 ng/ml, 61-80 ng/ml or 81-100 ng/ml. They did find an increased risk of hypertension, heart failure, diabetes, and renal failure for those who were deficient (0-20 ng/ml).


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Of course, I always wonder whether studies like that are done with people who are taking high doses of Vit D without the cofactors. From my reading the cofactors play an essential role in protecting against toxicity.

I find it very important that people take the time to understand the Regimen and read all the background material that Batch provides us with.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 6:56am
Hey Feisty,

Good on you for taking the time and effort to track down information on atrial fibrillation and any possible relationship to vitamin D3...

Had lighting struck that close to me or a love one... I'd have done the same thing.

The link you posted about too much vitamin D3 causing atrial fibrillation (AF), is actually old news... circa November 2011... and it's not very accurate news at that.

You picked the results part of this article that essentially shouts "Fire" in a theater, then hands out buckets of gasoline...

Now why would anyone want to do that???

Reading a little farther in the Vitamin D Council's analysis of this study, (I've been a member of the Vitamin D Council for nearly four years and talk with them frequently), you'll find a peer review based on common sense logic and knowledge of properly constructed RCTs... 

This study and the dupes who reported on its results were apparently attempting to scare people away from taking vitamin D3...  Again... who would want to do that?  Does the term "Big Pharma" ring a bell?

Had you posted sections from further down in the Vitamin D Council's analysis of this study, you would have found the following:

"The mechanism has yet to be accounted for by the investigators of the study. And many have cited that association does not necessarily translate to causation, and in consequence, we can’t take this study too seriously."

"What is unfortunate here is the lack of perspective in the MSNBC article. This study is a victim of poor journalism. The title reads like a siren, warning all who take vitamin D to stop. Much to our dismay, we are sure they achieved this for a portion of readers. "

If you read a lot of studies and articles involving vitamin D3 like I do, you get real good at spotting poorly constructed studies as well as studies with an obvious agenda designed to scare people away from taking vitamin D3...  Again... who would want to do that?

Prospective studies using vitamin D3 as a medical intervention that have either too low a vitamin D3 dose (<2000 IU/day) and/or none of the vitamin D3 cofactors are suspect.  Similar studies of vitamin D3 that don't track serum concentrations of 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH are also suspect.

My analysis of this article (and study abstract) found the researchers did not specify the actual range of 25(OH)D serum concentrations above 100 ng/mL. Remember, 25(OH)D is only a bio-marker...

This study also failed to measure serum calcium, PTH and calcium-creatinine ratio.  Any medical researcher who really understands the pharmacokinetics of vitamin D3 would have been familiar with these lab tests and incorporate them into the study protocol.  One of the biggest findings was not reported...  there were no indications of vitamin D3 intoxication among the study cohort...

Furthermore, there was no analysis of the cohort by age group, gender, demographics or epidemiological factors with respect to the incidence of AF.

As an example, in one study, "The AF incidence rate in the age group 55–59 years was 1.1/1000 person–years, rose to 20.7/1000 person–years in the age group 80–84 years and stabilized in those aged 85 years and above. Prevalence and incidence were higher in men than in women. The lifetime risk to develop AF at the age of 55 years was 23.8% in men and 22.2% in women.

Conclusion: In this prospective study in a European population, the prevalence and incidence of AF increased with age and were higher in men than in women. The high lifetime risk to develop AF was similar to North American epidemiological data."

See Prevalence, incidence and lifetime risk of atrial fibrillation at the following link for more detail.

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If you Google the following search terms, "atrial fibrillation vitamin D3 25(OH)D" you'll find there are tens of thousands of articles and studies on this topic...  Most link AF to low vitamin D3 status...  Only a handful attempt to attribute AF to excess vitamin D3, a 25(OH)D serum concentration > 100 ng/mL... and they all point to the same 2011 study.

Back to the diagnosis of AF...  If your husband was prescribed blood thinners...  Coumadin, (warfarin) or one of the newer generation blood thinners like Pradaxa... you need to read the following link.  It discusses controlling AF without drugs.

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 10:46am
Hi all, this is an appeal for the U.S friends on here. I have started the regimen over 1 1/2 year ago now and have been mostly pain free since after 3 weeks after starting the regimen, THANK YOU BATCH. I am currently taking the D3 and all the co-factors seperately. I live in Ireland and have looked on amazon.co.uk for the Kirkland mature multi, however the composition is different to the kirkland mature multi available in the U.S and does not suit the regimen as well.
I have queried amazon and was told that if i order from the U.S site, the order will be sent to me from U.K, so i would not receive the desired Kirkland mature multi.
I am wondering if any of you U.S folks would be so kind as to purchase some kirkland mature multi and send it to me here in Ireland. I can transfer funds through Paypal to cover all expenses (including postage and paypal costs). I would like to purchase 3 or 4 bottles of the stuff as I have my partner and my daughter on the regimen too.
I hope it is ok to ask this.
Anyone that would be willing to do this could send me a P.M.
Many thanks.
All the best to all here, may you be pain free.
Thierry

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 2:20pm
Thank you for your analysis of that study Batch. I hope that my posting that wasn't misinterpreted. The reason I did that was that it was shared with me by a person messaging me privately. I thought it would be helpful to get info out in the open here in the thread so that people who are sorting through symptoms can benefit from your response.

From my reading, it seems far more likely to develop AF from lack of Vitamin D3 than too much. And I completely agree with you that these studies are poorly done.

We will probably re-start my husband on the Regimen pretty soon. I have no concerns about its safety and I am convinced that the heart symptoms are not caused by the Regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Oct 17th, 2014 at 7:42pm
In case it's of interest, dh's re-tested 25(OH)D came out to be 56 ng/mL after not taking any D3 for a month. So my assumption was that he was well within the >60 ng/mL range once he was on the maintenance dose with the Regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Oct 18th, 2014 at 5:14am
G'day Thierry,
I posted an answer to your ? on Kirkland Multi under
Cluster Headache Specific on the main board, so to be
sure you get it.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Oct 29th, 2014 at 6:07am
Checking back in still PF

Date of Test      D2 (ng/mL)      D3 (ng/mL)      Total (ng/mL)            Laboratory
Ref Range      

06/16/2014                < 4                    53
     
10/24/2014                < 4                    79

I have upped my D3 intake to 15k I.U. for the fall allergy season (just in case) but maintained a 10k up until Oct 1st.

You all take care. I will be back with my next results.

Todd
     

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 29th, 2014 at 8:06am
Hey Todd,

Thanks for the update and lab data...  Your 25(OH)D serum concentration is spot on and it confirms and validates what Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, has been saying all along.  "The average 25(OH)D response to a dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is 80 ng/mL."

I agree with your proactive approach in raising your vitamin D3 intake for the Fall allergy season.  I've done the same thing...  Lots of leaf mold spores blowing around here in the Puget Sound area.

Take care, thanks again and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Don B on Oct 29th, 2014 at 4:21pm
Hi Batch, I am on the accelerated loading schedule for one more week, with the super dose being Tuesday. I will then back it down to 15,000 for two weeks and then the maintenance dose. I know it will vary from person to person, but in your experience, is there a typical response to this regimen given my level of 25 ? concern for toxicity ? I'm not too concerned about that; just want to get a feel for perhaps a typical response to the regimen with a baseline of 25, I expect to have more labs done in two weeks do you typically see an increase in 3 weeks that will bring the level from 25 into at least the 80's ? also, a history of kidney stones, any adverse reactions that you know of on the regimen ? By the way thanks so much for everything minimal CH's in the past week aborted with oxygen   


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TeeJ2379 on Oct 31st, 2014 at 9:07pm
Hi Don - get another blood test and let us know the results - generally you should be safe at <100 ng/ml - I regularly test around 70-90 ng/ml every three months and I'm on 20k daily D3.  If any doctors freak out, find new doctors - my Neuro has been awesome about - has handed me 7 lab slips to get tested as long as I want - shes even started talking to other patients about this regiment.  I have been PF for about 1 year now.  GL and PF days/nights!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Don B on Nov 1st, 2014 at 3:44am
Thanks TeeJ.
I have an appt. set for more lab work. Thanks for the feedback. Glad to hear that you are pain free, an I hope it stays that way !   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Nov 1st, 2014 at 10:18pm
G'Day Folks
I tried this regimen about two years ago with initial success, unfortunately it culminated in a horrible cycle which saw me bolting back to my trusted verapamil. Howeve, given the successes achieved here since then I have decided to give it another try. A question I have though, I have read here of the interaction between calcium and verapamil and the need to seperate the doses of each by 12 hours. I'm on 480mg of verap a day in 3 equal doses so I never have a 12 hour window. How do others approach this, should I just exclude the calcium from the regimen? Your advice will be much appreciated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 1st, 2014 at 11:23pm
Hey Wayne,

As long as the verapamil is working... skip the calcium.  You can always add it back after a favorable response...  220 mg/day should  be sufficient.

Be sure to check out the latest version of this regimen...  I've added a 3-month course of vitamin B 50.

You can find it at the following link:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Nov 2nd, 2014 at 12:50am
Thanks Batch, yes I did look at the latest version including the vit b50, I've matched the items as best I can.
Cheers,
Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 2nd, 2014 at 6:08am
Wayne,

I should have known you'd be up on the latest... 

Your All Blacks — New Zealand's and the world's top Rugby team — jumped ugly on USA's Eagles 74-6...  A sellout crowd of 61,500 at Chicago's Soldier Field was the largest to witness rugby in the United States.

The score wasn't all that interesting... but the level of play was amazing.  I watched the whole thing...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Nov 2nd, 2014 at 2:03pm
Batch,

Oh yes, I was glued to the screen myself. The All Blacks are in a class of their own at the moment, hope it lasts through next years world cup. I was really impressed at the crowd turnout, hopefully it will serve as a catalyst to elevate rugby a bit in the USA, it would be great to have a really competitive USA team on the world stage.
Maybe its a small payback for last years Americas Cup horror :)

Cheers,

Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Nov 3rd, 2014 at 2:57am
hi batch....and wayne
   gee batch,  I watched the game myself the other day,
     after 20 odd years of playing rugby in n.z,  my body is sure paying for it now !!   and they seem to be twice the size now from when I played !!!!
     sure was a fantastic turn out from the americans !

colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Nov 20th, 2014 at 4:53pm
Hello Folks

Time for some feedback. I've been on the D3 regimen for 2 full weeks now. When I started I was on verapamil but suffering frequent breakthroughs and annoying shadows. As I am on verapamil i take the D3 cofactors but not the calcium.
Since day 3 I have not had one CH attack and over the last week the shadows have cleared completely, I am feeling better than I have in a while which is probably due in equal parts to getting a good nights sleep, the enhanced vitamin intake and being PF for an extended period.
While its early days yet this is quite positive I think. I'm scheduled for the 25 (OH) D test on Monday so will see where that sits and adjust the D3 intake accordingly.
I passed the beer test last night without even a flicker, which bodes well for the weekend :)
FYI any other Kiwi's out there battling under the restrictive D3 policy here, I ordered my 5000iu soft gels through iHerb, took 9 days to get here and didn't even flicker at customs. It is so much easier taking 2 small gels instead of 10 large ones.

Cheers,

Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Don B on Nov 20th, 2014 at 5:30pm
Awesome news Wayne. I just had my 25(OH)D taken yesterday after being on the D3 regimen for a month. my story is much like yours and I expect my level to have gone from around 25 to the mid 80's just finishing a beer now and that's a huge deal. Congrats. I'm happy for ya....

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Nov 20th, 2014 at 5:52pm
Great news Wayne. It is simply amazing how much difference such simple things like sleeping through the night and being pain free make.

Plus good timing with the beer test for the run up to Xmas and New Year too.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 20th, 2014 at 6:16pm
Wayne, Don,

Thanks for the wonderful feedback on your experiences with the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing your CH...  It's first hand experiences like yours that gets the wallflower CH'ers off the sidelines and gives them the motivation they need to start this regimen.  Thank you again for sharing it with us...

Your 25(OH)D lab results are equally important as they help nail down the therapeutic response range for this vitamin D3 metabolite.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by urlilbrat on Nov 21st, 2014 at 3:32pm
Are you guys still taking the medication by the doctors and this regiment?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Nov 21st, 2014 at 5:49pm

urlilbrat wrote on Nov 21st, 2014 at 3:32pm:
Are you guys still taking the medication by the doctors and this regiment?


At first I was using both verapamil as a preventive plus the D3 regime, however not too long after starting the D3 my CHs stopped and I stopped the verapamil. I've been CH pain free now for almost 3 years and am still using D3.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Don B on Nov 21st, 2014 at 6:01pm
Same as Mike , I was concerned about long term affects of verap. Anti inflammatory regimen is doing the trick for me

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Nov 21st, 2014 at 9:10pm
Its a great read, that you guys are staying pain free like
myself who are taking vitamin D3 regime. Its a wonderful
world without having the  [smiley=evil.gif] as a
passenger.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Nov 22nd, 2014 at 5:25pm

urlilbrat wrote on Nov 21st, 2014 at 3:32pm:
Are you guys still taking the medication by the doctors and this regiment?

I'm still taking verapamil along with the D3 and will certainly stay on both until I am at least sure that my D3 is at therapeutic levels, then probably start titrating off the verapamil. I can see that that will be a tough decision though, I'm enjoying this pf time and don't want to rock the boat.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Don B on Nov 22nd, 2014 at 5:56pm
perfectly understandable Wayne. Glad you are pain free  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Nov 22nd, 2014 at 8:08pm

Wayne wrote on Nov 22nd, 2014 at 5:25pm:
I'm still taking verapamil along with the D3 and will certainly stay on both until I am at least sure that my D3 is at therapeutic levels, then probably start titrating off the verapamil. I can see that that will be a tough decision though, I'm enjoying this pf time and don't want to rock the boat.


Take that step at your own speed and slowly, taking notice of any changes as you titrate down. It isn't a race to get to zero verapamil. Hoping you can do this and still remain CH pain free too.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Nov 23rd, 2014 at 4:41pm

Mike NZ wrote on Nov 22nd, 2014 at 8:08pm:
Take that step at your own speed and slowly, taking notice of any changes as you titrate down. It isn't a race to get to zero verapamil. Hoping you can do this and still remain CH pain free too.


Wise words, Thanks Mike, how long did it take you to step off?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Nov 23rd, 2014 at 6:29pm

Wayne wrote on Nov 23rd, 2014 at 4:41pm:

Mike NZ wrote on Nov 22nd, 2014 at 8:08pm:
Take that step at your own speed and slowly, taking notice of any changes as you titrate down. It isn't a race to get to zero verapamil. Hoping you can do this and still remain CH pain free too.


Wise words, Thanks Mike, how long did it take you to step off?


I waited 4 weeks from my last CH, then dropped the verapamil dose by 120mg once a week until I got to zero after another 4 weeks. All the time I was watching for any CH like symptoms but didn't see any.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tangerinearmy on Dec 9th, 2014 at 4:39pm
hi all,
im going to start this regime for sure but i have a quickie question for any uk sufferers on this regime.

where are you finding the best quality products at the right prices.

also i presume its still ok to take maintenance doses of MM ;)
my only concern about doing this is that i need the test which means going to a GP (i presume)and i havnt been able to find a half decent gp that helps without one hell of a fight.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 9th, 2014 at 5:38pm
Hey Tangerinearmy... 

Good move starting the anti-inflammatory regimen...  The odds are high you won't be sorry... I've sent you a PM that should answer some of your questions including how/where to source the needed supplements.

Try to see your PCP for the 25(OH)D lab test...  If he or she craters on you and refuses to write you a script for this lab test, there are local labs all around the UK that will do the 25(OH)D lab test without an Rx...  You'll just need to foot the bill.  Google it... 

In over four years of use by over 600 CH'ers here at CH.com and Clusterbusters, there haven't been any problems reported taking this regimen along with neurologist prescribed CH meds... or MM.

All you need to do is ask if you have questions...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tangerinearmy on Dec 10th, 2014 at 5:21am
batch

nice one mate and thanks very much.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on Dec 10th, 2014 at 7:38am
I get mine from iherb.com in california. They supply the large doses we need at very reasonable prices and very fast shipping. Even with the shipping cost here to the UK it's still way cheaper than I have found anywhere else.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tangerinearmy on Dec 11th, 2014 at 7:57am
cheers maz



another question cos im not the brightest bulb on the tree and its starting to hurt my head.
which of the ingredients areyou buying individually and which come in a multi vit

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on Dec 11th, 2014 at 8:07am
I buy all mine individually as it seems the easiest way to get the doses right.  Some of the items contain a small amount of some of the other ingredients in the regime but I factor it all in and get as close as poss to Batch's recommendations. It took a long tome to work it all out for my first order, but after that just repeat the order. If I remember rightly It was impossible to get the quantities EXACT, but I got very close, and I think close enough is good enough.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Magnus on Dec 11th, 2014 at 3:40pm
Hi everybody

Wanted to update.

I have been painfree for more than two years with Batch Vitamin D Regimen, exept for a month of CH early spring this year. I didnt take care of me when that happened and know now what i need to do.
I have a completely new life. A future not expecting the worst all the time.
Ive been HC episodical for 30, something years. This has never happened before.... EVER!!!!

My coctail today consist of:

2000 mg Omega 3
5000 vitamin D (i built it up first with a few huge dozes of 50.000 twice a week)
100 CUQ10
K2 50m (only sometimes)
Zink 30mg
Spectro Multi Vitamin
B12 1000mc
Vitamin A sometimes.. 200mg
I only take Calcium (200mg) and Magnesium (90mg) through Spectro vitamin.
Sometimes i have a magnesium drink at night but to much Calcium was bad for me. Couldnt do numer 3 so easely.. Aw! :)

As i said in the beginning i have a new life. I dont think about the Beast anymore
Thank you so much Batch for all your help and i hope you who are still suffering, that u will find peace soon. This definently works (in theory) but every individual have to work around the basics. Its not the neouros.. Its the hormones!

Greeding from my icy Iceland :o

Magnús

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 11th, 2014 at 5:15pm
Hey Magnús,

Thanks for the wonderful update on your experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen... 

I suspect the spring CH burn through was due to an insufficient dose of vitamin D3 and resulting drop in your 25(OH)D serum concentration...  10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and at times higher doses are needed during times of immune system stress.

Our immune systems take priority on the consumption of 25(OH)D...  When that happens, there may be insufficient levels of vitamin D3 metabolites and the enzymes needed to produce them to prevent CH. 

The Spring pollen season in late April through May here in the Pacific Northwest has alder and maple pollen blowing around thick enough to coat my pickup truck making it look like someone dumped a bag of Portland Cement all over it... 

When that happens, I need to ramp up my vitamin D3 intake to 20,000 IU/day in order to stay pain free...

During the Fall, the first rains trigger leaf mold on both the alder and maple trees and that requires higher doses of vitamin D3 to remain pain free as well.

We're finding just about anything that triggers an immune system response will require additional vitamin D3 to remain pain free.

Thanks again for the wonderful feedback.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Dec 11th, 2014 at 5:30pm
Maz wrote, close enough is good enough.
That's very Aussie Maz  [smiley=lolk.gif]

I source all my vitamins from Biovea for the
correct dosage, except for calcium which also
gave me problems doing #2 I now get my calcium
intake 220mg from Kirkland Mature Multi, and all
is fine in that department  [smiley=bag.gif]

Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by maz on Dec 11th, 2014 at 6:41pm
Hi Hoppy, must have picked it up while I was there. ;D

The trouble is I have not been able to find any where in England, or at least in my area, that sells the high doses.
All you can get at the pharmacies is 200 iu of D3 which was an average of Ł6.99 for 30.
At the doses we need, thats over 30 pills and 7 quid a day and still not the recommended dose. And thats just the D3. Add up the same again for all the other co factors to the regime and you'd have to be a millionaire, and swallow hundreds of pills. I don't think my stomach could stand it, let alone my purse.

I can't remember the exact prices, but I got 100 x 5,000iu of D3, and the correct doses of calcium and magnesium, plus shipping, from iherb for under Ł25. It lasts ages.

If any one can tell me of a pharmacy/shop/supplier here in England that can do it for that price, I'd love to know.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Dec 11th, 2014 at 11:07pm
Hi Maz, Tangerinearmy,
I'm on the isle down the road from you, ie: Ireland, it can be quite difficult to source some of the items on Batch's D3 regimen here and the prices are extortionate so i get everything sent over from iherb.com, postage is cheap too when keeping the orders under 4 pounds weight. If i need to order more than the 4lbs, I just do 2 orders. Also this postage option has so far never been intercepted by customs which would otherwise slap on some import taxes. For my 1st order with iherb, i didn't choose this postage option and customs got me, had to pay a pretty penny to the f@%&*#s.  The package nearly always arrives within 10 to 12 days of ordering.

Here is a list of what I get from iherb, :

This D3 is at 10000iu per softgel so 1 a day (cheap in this large tub)

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- magnesium citrate, 2/day = 400mg

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- calcium citrate, 2/day = 500mg

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- fish oil omega 3,(same as Batch recommends), 2/day = 2400mg

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- Vit A + zinc i get from this multivitamin which also has lots of other good stuff, 1/day

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- vit K2, the one Batch recomends, 1/day

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That's it, all this does the trick for me and is a lot cheaper than in my local healthfood store.
All the best  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tangerinearmy on Dec 12th, 2014 at 5:47am
thanks thierry
thats just what i needed much appreciated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by BrianSteenstry on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 12:04pm
Just chiming in to say I've been Pain Free for a whole week now after a few weeks on Batch's regimen. No arguing with results. I was in the middle of a nasty cycle, and now I sleep like a baby. "Thank You" just doesn't cover it. I'm off to donate now. PFD to you all and Merry Christmas!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 4:08pm
Hey Brian,

Great feedback... Thank you for sharing it with us...

It's a wonderful feeling knowing you finally have control over the beast... and you're pain free.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:42pm
Wishing all and everyone a happy, joyful, peaceful and PF Christmas.
May you be well. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 24th, 2014 at 3:56pm
Great Idea Thierry...  You beat me to the punch.

Wishing all CH'ers and supporters a Very Merry and pain free Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year!

V/R, Batch (Pete & Joyce Batcheller)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Dec 31st, 2014 at 1:32pm
Hello everybody!! I haven't been here in a while due to me having my life back thanks to D3. I have been PF since Feb. But I have never forgotten how I got here. I wanted to wish Batch and everyone here who helped me fight the beast from day one a Happy New Year full of pain-free days. Live you all!

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 31st, 2014 at 7:40pm
Hey Andy,

Thanks for the wonderful New Year's Eve update...  Have a Happy and Healthy New Year.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wishbone on Jan 12th, 2015 at 7:37pm
Hey Batch, well as you know I tried the regimen and was virtually pain free for almost 2 years, but the demon reared its ugly head last week with vengeance and I have no idea why.  I had continued the regimen.  The only thing I know is the weather which always in the past triggered a cycle.  Fortunately so far I have only had a few 7-9 kip hits, but my hits are very frequent at night.  Fortunately I can abort with O2, but still shocked.  Ernie/aka Wishbone

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2015 at 1:45am
Hey Ernie,

Thanks for the update.  You're not alone.  Roughly 10% of CH'ers on this regimen experience an outbreak of CH after two years or so... 

Fortunately, I think we've a handle on this phenomenon...  Bump your daily intake of vitamin D3 to twice what you've been taking as a maintenance dose or 20,000 IU/day for a week or two.  Add a single 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3. 

You'll also need to increase your magnesium intake up to 600 mg/day or 750 mg/day.  After a couple weeks, try to taper back down to 10,000 IU/day and a serum concentration around 80 ng/mL.

Doing this should buy you some relief, but try to see your PCP for a lab test of your serum 25(OH)D, total calcium, PTH, magnesium and vitamin B12.

While you're doing this pick up some vitamin B 50 and take a tablet a day for three months.  If you can't find any vitamin B 50, get the vitamin B 100s and take one every other day for three months.  The vitamin B 50 tablets are formulated with 50 mg of each B vitamin plus 400 mg of folic acid.  Try to avoid the B complex or Super B complex as they are light on some of the B vitamins.

It pays to be connected...  I got in touch with Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD and shared the data I've been collecting on the anti-inflammatory regimen preventing CH and migraine headahes.  She's a neurologist prac­tic­ing in Tyler, Texas who has been prescribing a vitamin D3 regimen very similar to the anti-inflammatory regimen for her patients suffering from sleep, chronic pain and headache disorders.  The difference is she tests for vitamin B12 and adds a 3-month course of vitamin B 50.

She's been using this regimen a lot longer than the anti-inflammatory regimen and had quite a few of her patients report a loss of effectiveness after a couple years of pain free existence... It took her a while, but when a couple of her patients reported the regimen was working again after taking some B vitamins, she did the clinical research and came up with the 3-month course of vitamin B 50 as a solution. 

We don't know why, but maintaining a 25(OH)D serum concentration up around 80 ng/mL causes us to burn down one or more of the B vitamins causing a deficiency.  When that happens, the wheels fall off and the headaches return.

The 3-month course of vitamin B 50 takes care of any B vitamin deficiencies.  I've also modified the anti-inflammatory regimen by dropping the Kirkland brand calcium citrate and adding the Kirkland brand Mature Multi. 

The Mature Multi has less calcium, more vitamin A (retinol) and all the B vitamins at RDA.  It doesn't have enough magnesium so I also suggest the Kirkland brand of magnesium citrate 250 mg liquid softgels...  Two to three of these (500 to 750 mg of magnesium) helps prevent any calcium-magnesium imbalance.

Dr. Gominak has a great website with videos well worth the time watching.  You can find it at the following link:

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Dr. Gominak comes at the treatment of sleep, chronic pain and headache disorders from a slightly different perspective...  As you'll see in her videos, 8 hours a day of "quality" sleep is very important.  She's also a big fan of maintaining beneficial colonies of GI tract bacteria.  The vitamin B 50 helps in this area but a healthy diet of whole foods with lots of green veggies is also important.

Take care and please keep me posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 13th, 2015 at 8:25am
Batch, ia the vitamin B-50a one shot deal or should it be repeated again after some timw to bring levels back up? Thanks and have a wonderful day.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 13th, 2015 at 9:42am
Hey AndyT, Batch recommends that we take 1 capsule or tablet/day of B50 for 3 months, such as this one for exemple:

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The bottle on the link will do for 2 months

All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 13th, 2015 at 10:41am
Thierry,
I started the D3 on Saturday last. No improvement yet, but I'll stick with it. The B50 was the one element I had not included, but I'll go down to the local health shop today and see if I can get it.
Otherwise I'll get it on-line from the link you supplied.
Thanks for that.
Any snow in Galway yet? Sunny in Wexford.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 13th, 2015 at 3:05pm
Hey Peter,

Thanks for the headzup you've started the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Check out the following link for my post to Littlee regarding response to this regimen.

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Take care, hang in there and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 13th, 2015 at 6:58pm
Batch,
I'll stick with it. Tried to get the B50 today but no luck. I'll carry on without till I get it. No change yet, but fingers crossed. Will have the Blood test this week also.
Thanks for everything.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 14th, 2015 at 1:50am
Peter,

Vitamin B 100s will work... Just take one every other day.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 14th, 2015 at 12:02pm
Thanks batch. My local health store has B100 alright. I did'nt know if it was appropriate. I'll get it tomorrow.
Almost afraid to say this, but the shadows are a bit better today.... Tonight, we'll see.
Thanks again.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wishbone on Jan 14th, 2015 at 12:24pm
Thanks Batch, I actually increased my D3 to 25,000 IU, but also went back on Verapamil.  Have not taken the B50 or B100 yet, but with just the above have been PF for 2 days, but I for sure will get the B50 or B100.  Not sure if good or not but also began taking Potassium because I was getting leg cramps at night.  Have no idea if this has anything to do with anything or just coincidence.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 14th, 2015 at 1:11pm
Wishbone,

Taking potassium supplements won't hurt.  However, unless you've been jogging or running up and down stairs with a heavy load, leg cramps are an indication of a calcium-magnesium imbalance.  We need calcium during muscle contraction and magnesium during muscle relaxation.  Without sufficient magnesium, our muscles can't fully relax...

A calcium-magnesium imbalance is easy to come by when taking 10,000 IU/day or more of vitamin D3 and not enough magnesium.

The process of transporting and metabolizing vitamin D3 consumes magnesium at higher rates than normal.  If I miss a day of magnesium, I'll get cramps in my hands and feet.  As long as I take between 500 and 750 mg/day magnesium, I'm cramp free.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 15th, 2015 at 1:42am
here's something that males that take verapamil should know

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 16th, 2015 at 4:01am
Hi Peter, I hope you are well.
It is great that you have started the D3 regimen. It is a good idea to take all of the ingredients at the right dosage as per Batch. You indicate above that it may already be having a positive effect on your CH  :), that's great.
Have you tried the accelerated regimen so as to build up your D3 levels quicker. A weekly loading dose of 50000 iu D3 on top of your daily dose should do the trick.
It seems that I am one of those who still experiences shadows about twice a year even though I take the regimen all the time. This is a massive improvement when compared to the kip 9/10 i used to get every night for 3 to 4 months in spring and 2 to 3 months in autumn/winter.
When these shadows appear, i double up on the daily D3 -up to 20000 iu from 10000- for a few weeks and even add a weekly loading dose or two.
I also have O2 for when the shadows start, works every time.
When i started the regimen, after a few days the pain seem to feel different and even went to the other side of my head for a few days, it felt strange, different, but Batch was always very helpful and reassured me that all was going according to plans, and he, of course, was right. After 3 weeks, i was PF  :).
I get all my supplements on iherb.com for less than half the price of the healthfood stores here in ireland and the choice is also way more vast. If you want some help/advice as to what to get, do not hesitate to contact me.
Wishing you all the best and may you become PF very soon.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 16th, 2015 at 4:06am
Thierry,  thank you for being so helpful. We all appreciate the wisdom. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]


-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 16th, 2015 at 5:14am
Hi Thierry,
Thanks for the advice. I got the B50 yesterday so let's see from now how it goes.
The shadows have eased back gradually this week. The attack pattern is different too. At the start of the week I was being hit every 2 hours during the night. Night before last I got no hits, but got a 6/7 at 10:00a.m., which is unusual.
Last night just shadows and no hits (yet).
So, All good after week 1. Got the blood test done on too. Waiting results.
One question, the loading dose you suggest is 50K, right.
Sorry I did'nt get a chance to give you a bell. Will do shortly.
Thanks again.
Peter.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 16th, 2015 at 6:11am
Hi Peter, yes loading dose is50K (50000 iu), do that for about 4 weeks, that's on top of your daily dose which i guess is 10k (10000iu). You could also go up from 10000 iu daily to 15000 iu. The idea is to take about 600000 iu in the first month.
Sounds like the regimen is already starting to work. A change of pattern like the one you are experiening is not unusual, it might last for another few days, maybe a week. And maybe, like lots of us on the regimen, you will have your life back. Batch is a life saver for a countless amount of people here. Thanks to his relentless work and research, we are living again!
No worries about the call, see how you get on with the regimen. After a while you will become more familiar with it. It's always good to keep reading the posts on here as it helps understanding the process. Logging on to CH.com has become part of my daily routine.
All the best Peter
May you be PF.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by littlee on Jan 16th, 2015 at 7:01am
Batch (or anyone who knows):

I'm Day 9 of the regimen (20K + 50Ksuperdose). Day 6/7 PFDAN, last night 4 headaches every 2 hours during the night

I noticed Batch mentioned (talking about cramps, calcium, etc.) taking more than 400 magnesium. When taking 20K per day D3 + superdose, should I be taking more than the 400mg magnesium (I assume that is the standard dose at 10K D3 per day)?

I am avoiding the calcium due to taking verap every four hours. Is this a big deal until I get a chance to ramp up Calcium after I can ramp down the Verap?

Thanks for all the help!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 16th, 2015 at 7:03am
Thierry,
Thanks for the quick reply. I have taken 20k daily for the last 6 days. Should I drop back to 10 or 15?. Don't want to overdo it.
No doubt about it, Batch is a diamond.
Onwards and ever upwards.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by drmimmy on Jan 16th, 2015 at 7:05am
Just wanted to add my experience on the D3 regimen. 3.5 years ago this regimen saved my life. I was getting hit with KIP 10s 6 times a day and my cycle looked like it was going chronic. I had a 2yr old little girl who I couldn't be with and I had to shut her on the other side of the door while she cried for me and I screamed into a pillow in agony, all day, every day. My mum and dad were breaking watching me go through it. I was seriously thinking I'd need to take myself off somewhere and release them from it. Anyway then someone called CHfather told me about Batch's regimen and within 3 days I was completely pain free!!! It was unbelievable. From a hopeless sentence of misery to relief in 3 days! Since then it has busted away 4 cycles and I've had a PF life for 3.5 years. D3 not only saved me but my family too. I will always be grateful to Batch and to Chfather and I can't praise D3 enough.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 16th, 2015 at 7:13am
Drmimmy,
Thank you for that message. It gives me and loads of others a lot of hope.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 16th, 2015 at 11:56am
Hey Peter, 20000 iu/day is fine for a couple of weeks, it's a good way to build up your D3 levels quicker. It takes a lot more to overdo it i think. If i remember correctly, Batch has said that some people with a certain condition take 40000iu/day.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 16th, 2015 at 12:58pm
Hey Peter, Littlee,

Stick with the following  4-week accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule.  That's the fastest and most effective way to elevate your 25(OH)D up to the target serum concentration of 80 ng/mL.

Week 1 - 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily 20,000 dose.

Week 2 - 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily 20,000 dose.

Week 3 - 15,000 IU/day no loading dose

Week 4 - 15,000 IU/day no loading dose

Take all the other cofactors and Omega-3 Fish Oil each day along with a tablet a day of the B-50.

In addition, you can increase the magnesium to 600 IU/day during the 4-week accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule.  The extra magnesium is essential as it's consumed rapidly during vitamin D3 metabolism to 25(OH)D and on to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol) the active hormonal form of vitamin D3.

If you total all the vitamin D3 doses over the 4-week period, you'll come up close to 600,000 IU.  There are a couple studies where adults with a vitamin D3 deficiency were given a single 600,000 IU oral dose vitamin D3 with no problems.  Spread over 4 weeks, that works out to an average of a little over 21,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

I structured the accelerated  loading schedule with the same 600,000 IU dose of vitamin D3, but spread it over the 4 weeks.  The main reasons for this is to let the body adjust to the metabolic processes involved and to prevent dumping inactive vitamin D3 metabolites over the side in urine.

At the end of the 4-week loading schedule, drop your vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day and see your PCP for a lab test of your 25(OH)D.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 16th, 2015 at 1:09pm
Drmimmy,

Thank you for the wonderful update and kind words.  It's comments like yours that get the wallflowers who are wondering what to take next to stop the terrible CH pain, motivated enough to give this regimen a try.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why,
Post by Peter510 on Jan 16th, 2015 at 1:15pm
Thierry, Batch,
Thanks lads. Clear as a bell. Will keep you updated.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 16th, 2015 at 1:56pm
I'm only passing on what I learned from Batch. I read all his posts every day and there's learning in every one of them.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 16th, 2015 at 3:31pm
I agree, Thierry. Although I don't always comment on here, I do always get on to read and I always learn new things from Batch's knowledge. This thread is truly a gem and the information from everyone on here is so valuable to all of us. Thank you all for the continued support. To all the new-comers to the regimen I say welcome and stick with it, PF days are ahead for you!  :)

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by littlee on Jan 17th, 2015 at 9:09am
Hello again Batch,

Day 10 D3. My blood test shows 46 ng/ml (my only baseline was 38 in August). No impact on the CH's yet. I'm not due to take another 50K dose (along with the 20K) until Monday (2 more days). Any harm in accelerating this? Last two days were crap.

Taking 600 magnesium last 3 days. My level tested at 2.24. Not taking Calcium but anyway I tested at 9.16 (similar to baseline).

As I am writing this I'm realizing it's not fair to be posting these every few days and expect answers. Really appreciate what you've already mentioned and what's on this awesome site. I'll stick to the regimen (and maybe a bit more aggressively) and check my D level once a week. It's pretty easy to check where I am. No real waiting, results posted online.

Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Getoutofmyhead on Jan 18th, 2015 at 8:40pm
Hi all fellow CH, I am new here and in need of some help. This entire month I have been getting beat up with cluster headaches.

I am 5'10" 175 and I have a construction type job.

What vitamins should I start with and what dose. Please help me in lamins term for I'm not understanding the dosage verbiage. Also where are you fellow CH friends purchasing the vitamins.

Thank you in advance for any help and guidance you can help with. God bless.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 19th, 2015 at 11:14am
Hi folks,
Update: day 10, first pain free 24 hours in almost two years.. Amazing feeling, long may it continue!!!!!!
No blood results yet. But should have that at the end of the week.

Note to: getoutofmyhead. There are better guys than me on here who can explain the dosage, but Thierry sent this to me regarding where you can buy. START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE
Hope this helps.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 19th, 2015 at 1:53pm
Hey Littlee,

Sorry I missed your question... Go ahead and take the 50,000 IU loading dose now. 

The metrics of this regimen are 600,000 IU vitamin D3 over 4 weeks.  You can compress the schedule and do 600,000 IU vitamin D3 in two or three weeks then drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.  Try to get another lab test for you 25(OH)D and PTH at that time.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 19th, 2015 at 2:07pm
Getoutofmyhead,

Try to see you PCP or neurologist for a lab test of your 25(OH)D.  If that looks like it's going to take more than a few days, go ahead and start the anti-inflammatory regimen but be sure to get tested after taking it for a month.

The normal reference range of 25(OH)D is 30 to 100 ng/mL.  However, most physicians will interpret 31 ng/mL as normal.  While that may be true and a high enough concentration to prevent rickets... it's far too low to prevent CH.  CH'ers need to have their 25(OH)D up in a range between 60 to 110 ng/mL (The target 25(OH)D serum concentration is 80 ng/mL).

Over the last four years at least 600 cluster headache sufferers (CH'ers) have started the anti-inflammatory regimen of vitamins and minerals with at least 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3. 

83% of them have experienced a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH.  75% experienced multiple 24-hour pain free periods and 60% remain essentially pain free.  This regimen is equally effective for episodic and chronic CH'ers.  This regimen is also effective for Migraineurs in preventing their headaches.

The "Go To" link with info on all the anti-inflammatory supplements, their doses, drug interactions and contraindications follows:

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The following table represents the latest list of anti-inflammatory regimen supplements and doses:

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I've found the following supplements shown by brand in the photo below are formulated with most of the supplements we need.  I buy them at Costco, but you should be able to find similar formulations at most Vitamin Shoppes, supermarkets, Wall-Mart or over the Internet:

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The vitamin B 50 is not shown.  You’ll need a 3-month course of vitamin B 50 to handle any deficiencies among the seven B vitamins. 

If you can’t get to a Costco outlet, Thierry, a CH’er in Ireland, has posted a source for all the needed supplements at iherb.com.  See his post at the following link for details on how to order them over the Internet:

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Although the Super K with vitamin K2 complex isn't essential in preventing CH, it is needed to handle the increased serum calcium made available by taking vitamin D3 at the doses we take.

There are a growing number of studies finding the super K2 complex helps direct calcium away from soft tissues and arteries directing it instead to bones and teeth improving overall bone mineral density.

There are also a number of studies that have addressed the optimum ratio of calcium-magnesium supplements.  The general consensus is to keep these two supplements at a 2:1 ratio.  Many have found 400 mg/day sufficient.

Most CH'ers who have started this regimen over the last year and had their 25(OH)D results come back below 30 ng/mL, have used the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule and found it got them pain free faster than taking the maintenance dose of vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day...  The accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule follows:

On day one, take the entire regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and two of the Omega-3 Fish Oil liquid softgel capsules along with one each of the remaining supplements the first day.

If there's no allergic reaction to these supplements (very rare), take 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for the next two weeks along with the rest of the regimen.

In addition, for the first two weeks take a 50,000 IU loading dose (ten of the 5,000 IU vitamin D3 softgels) once a week on top of the daily dose for two weeks.  The day of the loading dose you'll be taking a total of 70,000 IU vitamin D3.

After two weeks on above vitamin D3 dosing schedule, stop taking the once a week loading dose and lower your daily vitamin D3 intake to 15,000 IU/day. Continue at this dose for another two weeks then lower the vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.  At that point see your PCP for another lab test for 25(OH)D.

If you total the vitamin D3 doses you'll be taking 600,000 IU vitamin D3 over the 4 week period.  This should elevate your 25(OH)D serum concentration by 60 ng/mL, (150 nmol/L) above your starting level.  Assuming that starting level was less than 30 ng/mL, (75 nmol/L), your serum concentration should be around 85 ng/mL, (212 nmol/L).

If you're like most of the other CH'ers who start this regimen, you'll experience a favorable response within the first week to ten days.  Migraineurs sail through their usual cycle times with nary a twinge...

Regarding the safety of this regimen.  Long term dosing with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is very safe.  Depending on skin type, our skin can make 15,000 IU of vitamin D3 in as little as 10 minutes if exposed to the UV-B in direct mid-day sunlight clad in a bathing suit without any sun block. 

There haven’t been any posts or reports of vitamin D3 intoxication or any adverse reactions requiring medical attention since I started posing about  this regimen in December of 2010. 

If you have questions please sing out.

Again, the above regimen of vitamins and minerals is called the anti-inflammatory regimen.  At 30 to 45 cents a day, depending on where you buy your supplements, this is the most cost effective and safest CH preventative available to us. You can read all about it at the following links:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 20th, 2015 at 7:20am
Hi Peter, I am so delighted for you after reading your last post. Being PF is something we could only have dreamt of.... until we read this thread and Batch's regimen.
Next we can look at where to get your regimen's supplements at a more affordable price.
I am sure your a savouring your PF life.
All the best.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 20th, 2015 at 9:50am
Thierry,

Spoke a little too soon. Got one hit at 3:30 this morning. 7/8 which lasted about 20 minutes. Nothing since, so its definitely an imorovement, but I got a bit excited yesterday when I posted.
I'll exercise a bit more caution and continue taking the Vits.
Cheers,
peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 20th, 2015 at 10:26am
Peter, it will get better. Wise to continue the loading doses so that you achieve 600000 iu D3 in the first month as stated above by Batch.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 24th, 2015 at 10:05am
Hey folks,
Update on D3 programme two weeks in. Some small change in severity and frequency, but nothing I could say is momentous. Got the blood results and my D3 level was 33. That was after 5 days into the regimen.
So on we go. It will be interesting to see how the next two weeks go and how the blood level increases.
Keep well,
Peter

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Jan 24th, 2015 at 4:23pm
Peter, 33 nm/ol is very low, the therpeutic level of D3 is around 200 nm/ol for us CH'ers.
Did you try Zomig? you GP can prescribe it, it works, you could take that when you get a bad attack until your D3 levels are up.
all the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 24th, 2015 at 6:59pm
Peter,

Check your PM inbox at the top left corner of this screen.  I've sent you a suggested vitamin D3 loading schedule you'll need to discuss with your PCP or neurologist.

Shoot me a PM if you have questions.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lancashire Lad on Jan 24th, 2015 at 7:52pm
Below from vitamindcouncil.org (not the first bit that's mine)

Thanks to my headaches I have been spending what should have been sleep time researching and I can tell you what I have come up with is curing headaches is a Black Art.

Most meds have been developed for other purposes many psychiatric drugs, anti fitting and even weirder stuff, the rule seems to be if it works for one then try it on someone else.

Some developed for headache meds list headaches as a side effect, some meds work completely differently in different people and oral meds can be neutralised in some peoples stomach's.

Blood pressure meds compete with the brain's requirements, BP meds can work to relax the blood vessels and expand them whilst the brain wants then kept constricted.

Then you get onto the clever chemistry and stuff about emitters and receptors and the cheery admission by the experts  that they don't know how they work and if they don't they don't no why either.

The brain is billions of times more complicated than the cleverest computers so its not surprising that a definitive solution to a specific problem is often only arrived at by trial and error.

We know people get addicted to some meds that do their headaches no goog whatsoever but those who have witnessed first hand the impossible to describe agony of the cluster / cluster type headache are fully sympathetic to someone who tries anything just to make the pain go away.

Which brings me to Batch;'s Regimen, it has obviously worked for some, apparenty a vast majority of those who have tried it but here's the thing; is it safe? what is the science behind it and what are the chemical / neurotransmitter responses on specific cells and receptors, what conflicts are set up.

Don't get me wrong the traditional and licensed meds don't offer the answers to these questions and as I say if it works who gives a damn.

I'm tempted to put a paper together on some of the stranger things my research has taught me but until then here is the Vitamin D Councils offering on too much vit D

Am I getting too much vitamin D?

Although most people take vitamin D supplements without any problems, it’s possible to take too much. This is called vitamin D toxicity. Vitamin D toxicity, where vitamin D can be harmful, usually happens if you take 40,000 IU per day for a couple of months or longer, or take a very large one-time dose.

Vitamin D is fat-soluble, which means your body has a hard time getting rid of it if you take too much. When you take large amounts of vitamin D, your liver produces too much of a chemical called 25(OH)D.

When your 25(OH)D levels are too high, this can cause high levels of calcium to develop in your blood. High blood calcium is a condition called hypercalcemia.

The symptoms of hypercalcemia include:

    feeling sick or being sick
    poor appetite or loss of appetite
    feeling very thirsty
    passing urine often
    constipation or diarrhea
    abdominal pain
    muscle weakness or pain
    feeling confused
    feeling tired

In some rare diseases, you may be at risk of hypercalcemia even if you have low vitamin D levels and haven’t taken much vitamin D. These diseases include primary hyperparathyroidism, sarcoidosis and a few other rare diseases. See our Hypersensitivity page page for more information.
How do I know if I have taken too much?

A blood test to measure your 25(OH)D levels can tell you whether you have too high of vitamin D levels. If your 25(OH)D levels are above 150 ng/ml this is considered potentially toxic and potentially harmful to your health. You know if your 25(OH)D levels are toxic by a blood test to measure calcium. If calcium is high and 25(OH)D is high, then you are getting too much vitamin D.

Very high levels of 25(OH)D can develop if you:

    take more than 10,000 IU/day (but not equal to) everyday for 3 months or more. However, vitamin D toxicity is more likely to develop if you take 40,000 IU/day everyday for 3 months or more.
    take more than 300,000 IU in a 24 hour period.

If you have taken this much vitamin D, seek medical attention. Your health providers will get your calcium and 25(OH)D levels tested.

The current recommended daily allowances for vitamin D set by the Food and Nutrition Board are conservative, so you don’t need to feel worried about toxicity if you take more than their recommended daily allowance. You can find out more about daily vitamin D supplementation on our page, How do I get the vitamin D my body needs?
What should I do if I think I have taken too much vitamin D?

Have you taken more than 300,000 IU in the past 24 hours OR have you been taking more than 10,000 IU/day for the past three months or longer?

    If yes, check to see if you have symptoms of toxicity (listed above); symptoms like feeling sick, feeling thirsty, constipation or diarrhea, poor appetite and feeling confused. If so, you may have hypercalcemia and need medical attention.
        If you do not have any symptoms, you likely do not have hypercalcemia. However, you should get a blood test for 25(OH)D and make sure that you do not have a level above 150 ng/ml. Consider lowering your vitamin D dose. See our page How do I get the vitamin D my body needs? for more information.
    If no, you likely do not have hypercalcemia and are not toxic. If you are still concerned, you may choose to get a blood test to measure 25(OH)D to see what your levels are. See our Testing page for more information.
        If you have symptoms of toxicity but have not taken more than 300,000 IU in 24 hours or more than 10,000 IU/day for the past three months, you may have a very rare condition that is sensitive to vitamin D. Please see our Hypersensitivity page for more information.

What about children?

The more you weigh, the more vitamin D your body can handle; the less you weigh, the less vitamin D your body can handle. The above cutoffs of 300,000 IU in 24 hours or more than 10,000 IU/day for three or more months apply to average adult weight (125-200 lbs).

So, how do you know if your child has gotten too much vitamin D?

    For children that weigh 25 lbs or less, more than 50,000 IU in 24 hours or 2,000 IU/day for over three months is too much and potentially toxic.
    For children that weigh between 25 and 50 lbs, more than 100,000 IU in 24 hours or 4,000 IU/day for over three months is too much and potentially toxic.
    For children that weigh between 50 and 75 lbs, more than 150,000 IU in 24 hours or 6,000 IU/day for over three months is too much and potentially toxic.
    For children that weigh between 75 lbs and 100 lbs, more than 200,000 IU in 24 hours or 8,000 IU/day for over three months is too much and potentially toxic.

If your child has taken too much vitamin D, seek medical attention.
I already tested my 25(OH)D. Is my level too high?

If your level is greater than 150 ng/ml, this is considered too high and potentially toxic. Seek medical attention if you have symptoms of hypercalcemia (listed above). If you do not have symptoms, consider lowering your level. Please see our pages on 25(OH)D reference ranges and our page on how to get the right amount of vitamin D:

    Testing for vitamin D
    How do I get the vitamin D my body needs?

If your level is not greater than 150 ng/ml, then you are not potentially toxic in vitamin D. Please read our pages on vitamin D levels and how to interpret your results:

    I tested my vitamin D level. What do my results mean?
    How do I get the vitamin D my body needs?

References

    Cusano NE, Thys-Jacobs S and Bilezikian JP. “Hypercalcemia Due to Vitamin D Toxicity.” In Vitamin D, Third Edition, by Feldman D, Pike JW and Adams JS. Elsevier Academic Press, 2011.
    Vieth, R. Vitamin D supplementation, 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations, and safety. American Journal of Nutrition, 1999.
 


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lancashire Lad on Jan 24th, 2015 at 9:02pm
This is good its not too tecky and helps put the importance of Vit D into perspective,how it metabolises, its influence on DNA and also the bodies self limiting and self producing mechanisms. A truely remarkable substance that clearly has an impact on CH in some sufferers.
Unfortunately the science is not that well understood outside a few experts and then they are always learning.
One more post on synthetic non steroidal anti inflammatories which goes to emphasise that man can create all kind of drugs and not know how the hell they work


Vitamin D: a natural wonder drug we’re all avoiding?

Anna K Coussens

If you were told that there was one very cheap pill you could take every day that would help prevent cancer, diabetes, mental health problems, and multiple sclerosis while dramatically boosting your immune system, most of us would waste little time in popping out to the nearest pharmacy. In recent years, vitamin D has been shown to have a protective role in all of these diseases, yet at the same time the worldwide incidence of vitamin D deficiency is on the increase. You may have heard in the news that the incidence of rickets in children is on the increase, but did you realise that this is due to severe vitamin D deficiency and that a third of British children are thought to be vitamin D deficient? You may also remember the cases of ‘shaken baby syndrome’ where parents were accused of killing their children, but it turned out it was caused by weak bones due to vitamin D deficiency.

If you are unaware of the beneficial effects of vitamin D, you’re not the only one and it probably isn’t your fault as a recent study has shown that more than 50% of healthcare workers are also unaware of the benefits of vitamin D. In an attempt to combat this general lack of awareness clinicians and scientists have been pushing governments and advisory bodies to promote the benefits of vitamin D and increase their daily intake guidelines. In reply, the Chief Medical Officer for England, Dame Sally Davies, has recently advised that some groups, particularly pregnant women and the under-fives, should take a daily vitamin D supplement.

We all know that calcium is essential for bone growth, but fewer know that we need vitamin D for calcium adsorption. In fact, vitamin D is also essential for bone growth. However, vitamin D is not only essential for controlling calcium and phosphate levels, to maintain healthy bones. There is also growing scientific evidence that vitamin D is responsible for a whole host of other health benefits, including maintaining a healthy heart and brain, preventing cancer and diabetes and boosting your immune system.

One reason for its wide-ranging effects is that, unlike other vitamins, the major product of vitamin D, commonly called calcitriol, is actually a hormone. Whereas other vitamins, like vitamin C, need to be obtained from food and act as antioxidants or co-factors in enzymatic reactions, being a hormone means calcitriol is produced by specific cells to act as a messenger to tell other cells what to do. Calcitriol works by binding to the vitamin D receptor made by a certain cell, in the same way that a key fits its lock. Together they form a molecule which can help to turn on and turn off more than 900 genes in that cell. These genes control a diverse range of functions and it is therefore by acting as a key for this lock that the product of vitamin D, calcitriol, has an important role in maintaining a properly functioning body.
Figure 1.
Figure 1.

Click image to view at full-size

Vitamin D is obtained in two forms D2 (plant–derived) and D3 (UV/ animal-derived). Vitamin D is converted by cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes into calcidiol and calcitriol. Calcitriol controls the levels of CYP enzymes to make sure too much calcitriol isn’t produced. The blue line indicates inhibition, the red lines indicate activation.

It used to be thought that vitamin D was converted into calcitriol by two specific enzymatic reactions (Figure 1). The first step, occurring in the liver, produces calcidiol. This is the major form of vitamin D found in the blood and is what is measured to determine if someone is vitamin D deficient. The second step occurs in the kidney to convert calcidiol into calcitriol, through the action of the enzyme cytochrome 27B1 (CYP27B1). Low levels of calcium cause the parathyroid gland to increase production of the parathyroid hormone and this increases CYP27B1 production by the kidney, thereby increasing calcitriol levels. To make sure that too much calcitriol is not produced, calcitriol decreases parathyroid hormone production in order to limit CYP27B1 and its own synthesis.

In 1981, however, it was discovered that CYP27B1 and calcitriol could also be produced by a particular kind of immune cell, called macrophages. These cells act as the body’s rubbish collectors, ingesting and disposing of things the body doesn’t want, such as bacteria during an infection, debris from dying cells, or cancer cells. This was the first evidence that during an infection cells require high levels of calcitriol for optimum functionality. When macrophages sense bacteria they produce their own CYP27B1 so that they can make calcitriol, potentially at higher levels than they can get from the blood. This helps them turn on the genes they need to fight the infection. However, in order that the body doesn’t make too much calcitriol, calcitriol also activates the gene that makes another enzyme (called CYP24A1) which begins to degrade calcitriol. It is now known that many cell types will produce CYP27B1 in response to a range of stimuli. Consequently, vitamin D is now recognised to regulate numerous aspects of cell function, including cell growth, development, activation and death.
If it’s so good, how do we get it?

Vitamin D exists in two forms: vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) and vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol) (Figure 1). Vitamin D3 is the predominant form in humans and is primarily obtained through skin exposure to UV irradiation from the sun. This converts a substance in the skin (which comes from lanolin) into vitamin D3. It is generally thought that between 5–30 minutes of midday sun exposure (10am-3pm) at least twice a week to the face, arms, legs, or back, without sunscreen, is required to maintain sufficient levels of vitamin D. You get the same amount of vitamin D whether you have 30 minutes exposure or 8 hours, as the heat generated in the skin by the UV will degrade any excess vitamin D produced. A very specific wavelength of UV (UVB) is required for vitamin D production. How close to the equator you live, the season, time of day, cloud cover and smog can all affect the wavelength you are exposed to. Skin colour (determined by the amount of the pigment melanin in your skin) and sunscreen use can also affect the amount of UV radiation that your skin cells receive. Therefore, if you have darker skin you need longer exposure to the sun in order to make the same about of vitamin D3 as someone who has pale skin. Vitamin D3 can also be obtained from dietary sources such as oily fish and eggs and their derived products like cod liver oil. Vitamin D2 is obtained from plant sources, primarily fungus and yeast exposed to UV irradiation, or from nutritional supplements (see historical note).

Where you live is one of the major factors that influences how much vitamin D you get. Equatorial countries, which are sunnier, have a greater steady state of vitamin D than countries at northern or southern latitudes, where seasonal variation in daylight hours is greatest. Even within the UK, if you live in Scotland you are three times more likely to be vitamin D deficient than someone in the southeast of England, as Scotland has a lot less daylight throughout the year (Figure 2). There is growing evidence for associations between geographical vitamin D levels and neurological conditions such as multiple sclerosis (MS), depression and brain development. There is an association between the season during which a pregnant woman has her third trimester and the neurological development of her baby, summer being optimal to maximise vitamin D levels. The severity of MS symptoms can also vary by season.

Older adults are particularly at risk of developing vitamin D deficiency because as they age, their skin cannot synthesize as much vitamin D. Other populations at risk include those who cover their entire body in clothing, indoor dwellers, night workers and people with inadequate intake of vitamin D rich foods, particularly fatty fish. This latter point is of particular note for expectant mothers who are advised to avoid certain seafoods during pregnancy, but total seafood avoidance will increase their risk of vitamin D deficiency. Furthermore, as vitamin D is a fat soluble molecule, calcidiol is stored in fat and its release into circulation is altered by excess stores of body fat. Consequently, obesity is another risk factor for vitamin D deficiency.
Figure 2.
Figure 2.

Click image to view at full-size

UK average annual sunlight duration per day varies according to latitude and corresponds to the gradient of vitamin D deficiency throughout the country.

The ability to tan has been shown to be inversely proportional to vitamin D synthesis. This is because the skin pigment (melanin) blocks UV from penetrating deep within the skin. Many researchers now worry that excessive use of sunscreen, which was encouraged to prevent UV-induced DNA damage and skin cancer, is leading to an epidemic of vitamin D deficiency - particularly in a country like the UK, where UV exposure is moderate in comparison to Australia where the recommendations for sunscreen originated. In support of this idea, reports are emerging from sunny countries that the risk of a second primary cancer after having a non-melanoma skin cancer (the less aggressive form) is lower for nearly all cancers investigated. This is because non-melanoma skin cancers reflect cumulative sun exposure, whereas melanoma (the most aggressive form) is more related to sunburn. Consequently, extended sun exposure, without burning has been shown to prevent melanoma.
How does vitamin D affect so many functions of the body?

We now know that outside the kidney, calcitriol can be made by a range of other cell types including lung, skin, colon, pancreatic, brain, breast and various immune cells (Figure 3). For a cell to respond to calcitriol it needs to make a vitamin D receptor. However, to be an active receptor the vitamin D receptor must also bind to the vitamin A receptor. Binding of calcitriol to these two receptors forms an active molecule called a transcription factor which can bind to a gene’s specific DNA sequence and cause it to be turned on. By controlling the activation of genes, calcitriol affects a wide range of processes within a cell. However, vitamin D metabolites are not the sole activators of the two receptors. Retinoic acid (a form of vitamin A) in combination with calcitriol has been shown to regulate genes in macrophages which help them to kill intracellular bacteria and inhibit their ability to ingest bacteria. This suggests that maintaining physiological levels of both vitamin D and vitamin A may be important for correct functioning of the receptor complex.

The main function of vitamin D is to maintain healthy bones by controlling blood calcium levels. However, calcium is also required for muscle function and deficiency can lead to low muscle strength, again which can be associated with falls and secondary fractures. Conversely, excess calcitriol causes high calcium levels, which can lead to kidney stones, kidney failure and cardiac failure. Luckily this can be prevented if detected early enough.

One of the ways calcitriol helps the body’s immune system to fight infection is by turning on genes which make small proteins called antimicrobial peptides, particularly one called cathelicidin. This small protein has been shown to kill many different pathogens, including bacteria such as M. tuberculosis, Staphylococcus aureus and E. coli, fungi such as Candida albicansand viruses such as herpes simplex virus type 1, influenza and human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1). The mechanisms of killing are not completely understood, but it is known that cathelicidin kills bacteria by punching holes in their cell wall. So far we know that cells in the skin, lung, eye, colon, as well as many immune cells all make cathelicidin when sufficient vitamin D is available.
Figure 3.
Figure 3.

Click image to view at full-size

Calcitriol, the active form of vitamin D, affects the function of many organs in the body.

Paradoxically, despite its ability to induce antimicrobial activity, calcitriol also inhibits many pro-inflammatory signalling molecules (called cytokines and chemokines) which activate and recruit other immune cells and induce anti-inflammatory signals from various immune cells. In general, immune cells make pro-inflammatory cytokines to help activate the immune response during an infection. Recruiting and activating other cells at the site of disease results in the inflammation and raised temperature we all associate with being sick. In many chronic infections, however, excess inflammation can lead to tissue damage. It is believed that calcitriol limits the inflammatory immune response to prevent excess tissue damage at the same time as having direct antimicrobial activity to kill the invading pathogen.

It is via its anti-inflammatory effects that vitamin D is also thought to help in various autoimmune diseases which develop due to inappropriate chronic inflammation, including type 1 diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease (ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease), rheumatoid arthritis and asthma. Excess inflammation is also thought to be a damaging factor in neurological conditions where the degree of inflammation is proportional to the severity of symptoms, as occurs in MS. Vitamin D has been shown to reduce inflammation caused by repeated trauma to peripheral nerves in chronic regional pain syndrome and reduce the risk of vascular dementia. However, this link to dementia may also be due to the beneficial effects of vitamin D on the cardiovascular system. As vitamin D limits inflammation and tissue destruction, it also has a positive effect on preventing the thickening of arterial walls which is the main cause of cardiovascular disease and stroke. Vitamin D deficiency is associated with increased blood pressure and severely deficient newborns can have heart failure.

Another way vitamin D can limit tissue damage is by controlling the expression of matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs): enzymes which are capable of degrading all components of the tissue within which cells live. MMPs are generally produced by cells to help repair damaged tissue. Long term MMP activity can cause tissue destruction in chronic inflammatory conditions, such as tuberculosis TB, psoriasis, eczema and asthma, while it also allows cellular migration in metastatic cancers. In work carried out at NIMR, it has been shown that the levels of various MMPs are increased in the blood of tuberculosis (TB) patients and that supplementation with vitamin D during anti-TB therapy significantly reduces the levels of MMPs along with many other pro-inflammatory signals. This is interpreted as good evidence that vitamin D helps to resolve the pathological inflammation which destroys the lung during TB. Lung destruction is what causes TB patients to cough up blood, an image forever linked with the consumption epidemics of the 17th and 19th centuries.

While vitamin D can play a role in limiting cancer metastasis through limiting tissue destruction, it may also control cancer by stopping cell growth, as has been shown for breast cancer cells. However, the majority of evidence for a role of vitamin D in cancer comes from studies showing that vitamin D deficiency and low sun exposure are associated with increased risk of cancer incidence and mortality. Cancers linked to vitamin D deficiency include breast, colon, ovarian, pancreatic, prostate, oesophageal, gall bladder, gastric, rectal, renal and vulvar cancer, melanoma and Hodgkin’s and non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. In the UK, prostate cancer risk is inversely proportional to the extent of UV exposure, skin colour and sunbathing on holiday. Contrary to links between UV exposure and cancer, childhood sunburn was found to be protective against prostate cancer in UK males. There are also many studies which show no correlation between UV exposure and cancer. The difficulty in finding conclusive evidence for the role of vitamin D in cancer is complicated by the multiple environmental and genetic factors involved (including diet, geographical location, skin colour and genetic predisposition) and the length of time over which cancer develops.

Vitamin D also plays a vital role in maternal health during pregnancy and lactation, particularly during the second and third trimesters. Children born in spring have been shown to have the highest rates of mental disorders (such as depression and schizophrenia) and autoimmune diseases (such as type 1 diabetes and asthma) and expectant mothers are at highest risk of vitamin D deficiency during this time. Higher doses of vitamin D supplementation during pregnancy have been shown to reduce infections and the risk of preeclampsia in mothers, and to increase the bone and muscle strength of their children. Vitamin D deficiency is also associated with the severity of polycystic ovary syndrome symptoms and fertility rates can be enhanced by vitamin D supplementation.
How much vitamin D do we really need?

So if that’s what we currently know about the benefits of vitamin D and the risks of vitamin D deficiency, are we giving people the right advice about vitamin D intake? Because circulating calcidiol levels may not always be indicative of what is occurring within a cell, determining adequate vitamin D levels based solely on blood calcidiol is difficult. The level you choose to define 'deficiency' will depend on what physiological process you are trying to maintain. An individual’s requirement will also depend on how well they can actually metabolise vitamin D, transport it to where it is required and how active their vitamin D receptor is. All of these factors can vary between individuals due to their genetic variation. The highest levels of vitamin D are required to maintain optimal functionality of all processes which vitamin D is thought to be involved in. Lower levels will only maintain the vital roles of vitamin D in controlling calcium and bone health.

Determining recommended daily intakes (RDI) also depends on an individual’s sun exposure, sun screen use, ability to tan and skin colour. Therefore, determining an RDI that suits everyone is difficult. The fact that sunlight can provide a huge burst in vitamin D levels suggests that supplementation can be carried out at higher levels than currently recommended and still remain safe. There is more evidence pointing to the health benefits from higher concentrations of vitamin D than to deleterious effects. Two internationally recognised bodies have recently published revised supplementation guidelines. A panel of clinicians from the USA Institute of Medicine (IOM) published one report, and a group of scientists and clinicians from the Endocrine Society published a reply to that report. The conclusions of the two studies are conflicting, with regard to RDI for optimal health outcome. The first is cautionary, underplaying the evidence, the second is realistic in recommending levels not greater than can be obtained naturally from the sun. The major difference was the definition of vitamin D deficiency categorised by the two studies: the IOM specified 20 mg/L as the level based predominantly on benefits to bone health, while the second study categorised people between 20-30 mg/L as being insufficient and more than 30 mg/L as sufficient. However, the later study also suggested that 40-50 mg/L will promote optimal health benefits, with regard to non-bone related functions.While you may not understand what these numbers represent, the fact that the second study recommended double the amount of vitamin D for optimal health, highlights the present conservatism of some advisory bodies. The IOM set their RDI at 600 units per day, while the Endocrine Society paper recommended at least 600 units per day to prevent deficiency and 1500-2000 units per day for optimal health. Higher levels were also recommended for the elderly and obese people in both studies. The upper limit set by the two studies was 4,000 units per day and 10,000 units per day, respectively.

So why was the IOM so cautious in their recommendations? What’s bad about too much vitamin D? Historically, dangerously high levels were prescribed, inducing extremely high levels of calcium which in some cases resulted in kidney failure and cardiac failure. This made clinicians cautious in overprescribing supplements. However, these original studies used extraordinarily high doses, hundreds of times higher than the upper levels which are in dispute by these two studies. Moreover, no toxic effects have been associated with levels of 10,000 units/day, even in patients with an illness. Moreover, when an adult wearing a bathing suit is exposed to the amount of UV which will result in a slight pinkness in the skin, the amount of vitamin D produced is equivalent to ingesting between 10,000 and 25,000 units.

I am Australian and I love the sun. However, being of British heritage means I am blessed with pale, sunburn-prone skin and as such I am cautious when it comes to sun exposure. Despite this, I spent my first summer after moving to London making sure I got out in the sun on the weekends as much as possible, while ensuring I did not get sunburnt. Towards the end of summer, I had my vitamin D measured and was happily surprised to find I had a calcidiol level of 43.6 mg/L - the optimal level recommended by the Endocrine Society. Thus even in an English summer, with only intermittent sun exposure I had reached a level more than double what the IOM has now classified as sufficient. So, if you can naturally make more than 40 mg/L in an English summer, is this level really bad for you? With growing evidence suggesting there are multiple beneficial effects of having calcidiol levels more than 40 mg/L and few negative effects, perhaps we should encourage higher levels in order to promote greater health benefits and a preventative health care policy, rather than recommending levels at the bottom end of healthy, based predominantly on one physiological system (i.e. maintaining healthy bones)? I, for one, trust nature to deliver what I need. If regular sun exposure can give me 43.6 mg/L in summer, then I will take supplements to give me that level when I have limited sun exposure in winter. I wait in anticipation for the revised NICE guidelines for vitamin D. I hope you look out for them too!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lancashire Lad on Jan 24th, 2015 at 9:10pm
Sorry if these are long but the devil is unfortunately in the detail, this post if fleshed out could make the basis for a phd thesis by detailing the molecular makeup, the dna interactions, the receptor thingies, the efficacy for original purpose and the spread of application the drugs have now and of course cost and the social impact availability vs prevalence of complaints (treatable by said drugs) in economically challenged populations / regions

from emedexpert.com (for purpose of review only)

Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Comparison

    Uses
    Types
    Mechanism of action
    Differences between NSAIDs
    Side effects
    Contraindications
    Cost
    Conclusions

Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) are among the most commonly prescribed medications worldwide. They relieve pain and inflammation in many disorders.

Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs have anti-inflammatory, analgesic, and antipyretic effects and inhibit thrombocyte aggregation. NSAIDs are used primarily to treat inflammation, mild-to-moderate pain, and fever. NSAIDs also are included in many cold and allergy preparations.

NSAIDs block the Cox enzymes and reduce prostaglandins throughout the body. As a consequence, ongoing inflammation, pain, and fever are reduced. Since the prostaglandins that protect the stomach and support the platelets and blood clotting also are reduced, NSAIDs can cause ulcers in the stomach and promote bleeding.

Uses

NSAIDs are usually indicated for the treatment of acute or chronic conditions where pain and inflammation are present. Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs are powerful analgesics, especially for nociceptive pain. NSAIDs also are effective in some neuropathic pain syndromes when used with other analgesics.

NSAIDs are indicated for the symptomatic treatment of the following conditions:

    Rheumatoid arthritis. NSAIDs are particularly useful in the inflammatory forms of arthritis (such as rheumatoid arthritis) and, sometimes, in the more severe forms of osteoarthritis.
    Osteoarthritis
    Acute gout
    Inflammatory arthropathies: ankylosing spondylitis, psoriatic arthritis, Reiter's syndrome
    Dysmenorrhoea (painful menstruation), menstrual cramps
    Headache and migraine
    Postoperative pain
    Mild-to-moderate pain due to inflammation and tissue injury
    Back pain and sciatica
    Sports injuries, sprains, and strains
    Dental pain
    Pain from kidney stones (renal colic)
    Reduction of fever
    Prevention of blood clotting (Aspirin only)

Note: NSAIDs do not cure the diseases or injuries.

Types of NSAIDs

There are many different types of NSAIDs, which are categorized according to their chemical structures:

Salicylates:

    aspirin (Ascriptin, Bayer, Ecotrin)
    diflunisal (Dolobid, Diflunisal)
    salsalate (Argesic SA, Disalcid, Salflex, Salsitab, Mono Gesic)

Arylalkanoic acids:

    diclofenac sodium (Voltaren)
    diclofenac potassium (Cataflam)
    indomethacin (Indocin)
    etodolac (Lodine)
    sulindac (Clinoril)
    tolmetin (Tolectin)

Pyrroles:

    ketorolac (Toradol)

Arylpropionic acids (profens):

    ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil)
    ketoprofen (Orudis, Oruvail)
    dexketoprofen ()
    naproxen (Naprosyn, Alleve)
    fenoprofen (Nalfon)
    flurbiprofen (Ansaid)
    oxaprozin (Daypro)

Enolic acids (oxicams):

    piroxicam (Feldene)
    meloxicam (Mobic)
    lornoxicam
    tenoxicam (Mobiflex)

Fenamates:

    mefenamic acid (Ponstel)
    meclofenamate (Meclomen)
    niflumic acid
    tolfenamic acid
    flufenamic acid

Pyrazolones:

    metamizole (dipyrone)
    phenazone (antipyrine)
    aminopyrine (aminophenazone)
    propyphenazone
    phenylbutazone

Sulphonanilides:

    nimesulide

Napthylalkanones:

    nabumetone (Relafen)

COX-2 Inhibitors:

    celecoxib (Celebrex)
    etoricoxib (Arcoxia)
    parecoxib (Dynastat)

Acetaminophen, ibuprofen, naproxen, and ketoprofen are available over-the-counter in the United States.

Mechanism of action

NSAIDs work by suppressing the production of prostaglandins. Prostaglandins are chemical messengers that mediate inflammation, fever and the sensation of pain. NSAIDs block the production of prostaglandins by inhibiting the action of an enzyme, cyclooxygenase (COX). This enzyme is responsible for converting precursor acids into prostaglandins.

Prostaglandins formed via COX-1 activity control renal perfusion, promote platelet aggregation and provide gastroprotection by regulating mucous secretion. Prostaglandins formed via COX-2 activity mediate pain, inflammation, fever and inhibit platelet aggregation.

In the periphery NSAIDs work by decreasing the sensitivity of the nociceptor to painful stimuli induced by heat, trauma, or inflammation. In the central nervous system, they are thought to function as antihyperalgesics and block the increased transmission of repetitive incoming signals to higher centers. In effect, they modulate perception of pain caused by repetitive stimulation from the periphery. Since they function by modulation of the perception of pain, they may be useful when given in the preoperative period and may reduce the need for postoperative analgesia.

The anti-inflammatory activity of NSADs in descending order:
indomethacin > diclofenac > piroxicam > ketoprofen > lornoxicam > ibuprofen > ketorolac > acetylsalicylic acid

NSAIDs that inhibit both COX-1 and COX-2 enzymes are named non-selective NSAIDs. NSAIDs that mainly inhibit COX-2 enzymes are named COX-2 inhibitors (Coxibs).

Classification of NSADs by selectivity to cyclooxygenase (according to “Drugs Therapy Perspectives”, 2000):
Pronounced selectivity towards COX-1      Aspirin
Indomethacin
Ketoprofen
Piroxicam
Sulindac
Moderate selectivity towards COX-1      Diclofenac
Ibuprofen
Naproxen
Equal inhibition of COX-1 and COX-2      Etodolac
Meloxicam
Nimesulide
Nabumetone
Pronounced selectivity towards COX-2      Celecoxib

Differences between NSAIDs

The principal differences among NSAIDs lie in the time to onset and duration of action. Also, these drugs vary in their potency and how they are eliminated from the body.

Another important difference is their ability to cause ulcers and promote bleeding. The more an NSAID blocks COX-1, the greater is its tendency to cause ulcers and promote bleeding.

Aspirin is a unique NSAID but because it is the only NSAID that is able to inhibit the clotting of blood for a prolonged period (4 to 7 days). This prolonged effect of aspirin makes it an ideal drug for preventing the blood clots that cause heart attacks and strokes. Most other NSAIDs inhibit the clotting of blood for only a few hours.

Bromfenac was recently approved by the FDA for the treatment of postoperative inflammation and reduction of ocular pain in patients who have undergone cataract extraction. Earlier bromfenac was removed from the market because of reports liver damage associated with its use.

Celecoxib has a sulfonamide structure and is contraindicated for patients with known sulfa allergy.

Dexketoprofen is available as the tromethamine salt -- dexketoprofen trometamol. Dexketoprofen is the S(+) enantiomer of the racemic compound ketoprofen. Clinical studies showed that dexketoprofen has good analgesic and safety profiles, comparable to those of other NSAIDs7.

Diclofenac is relatively long acting (6 to 8 hours) but it has a relatively very short half-life. Diclofenac is also a unique member of the NSAIDs. There is some evidence that diclofenac inhibits the lipoxygenase pathways, thus reducing formation of the leukotrienes (also pro-inflammatory autacoids). There is also speculation that diclofenac may inhibit phospholipase A2. These additional actions may explain the high potency of diclofenac - it is one the most potent NSAIDs.

As an analgesic, diclofenac is 6 times more potent than indomethacin and 40 times as potent as aspirin in the phenyl benzoquinone-induced writhing assay in mice.

Diclofenac use increases the risk of heart attack and stroke.

Etodolac, with regard to its anti-inflammatoryproperties, is approximately 50 times more active than aspirin, three times more potent than sulindac, and one-third as active as indomethacin. Although etodolac is no more potent than many other NSAIDs, a low incidence of GI side effects is an important therapeutic advantage.

Fenoprofen has less potent in anti-inflammatory action than ibuprofen, indomethacin, ketoprofen, or naproxen.

Flurbiprofen was found to be 536-fold more potent than aspirin and 100-fold more potent than phenylbutazone. Oral flurbiprofen is half as potent as methylprednisolone. Flurbiprofen is 26 times more potent than ibuprofen as an antinociceptive.

Ibuprofen has the lowest risk of causing GI bleeding.

Indomethacin, a very potent COX inhibitor, besides its high cardiovascular risk, has a significant GI toxicity and many central nervous system side effects. Indomethacin should not be used by children <14 years and during pregnancy.

Indomethacin is still one of the most potent NSAIDs in use. It is also a more potent antipyretic than either aspirin or acetaminophen, and it has about 10 times the analgesic potency of aspirin. However, its beneficial analgesic effect is definitely overshadowed by pronounced side effects.

Ketoprofen, unlike many NSAIDs, inhibits the synthesis of leukotrienes and leukocyte migration into inflamed joints in addition to inhibiting the biosynthesis of prostaglandins. Ketoprofen stabilizes the lysosomal membrane during inflammation, resulting in decreased tissue destruction. Although it is less potent than indomethacin, its gastrotoxicity is about the same. Ketoprofen may cause photosensitivity.

Ketorolac is the most potent and most effective NSAID analgesic, with efficacy comparable to opioids4. The analgesic effect of 30 mg of ketorolac is similar to 10 mg of morphine. Anti-inflammatory activity is achieved only at doses higher than those needed for analgesia. Ketorolac has the highest incidence of side effects, and is, therefore, not used for more than five days.

Lornoxicam is unique among the enolic acid derivatives in that it has a rapid onset of action and a relatively short half-life (3 to 5 hours).

Meloxicam was initially introduced as a selective COX-2 inhibitor. However, it is less selective for COX-2 than is celecoxib. Meloxicam causes fewer GI complications than piroxicam.

Metamizol is a potent and promptly acting analgesic and antipyretic. Its anti-inflammatory activity is poor. Metamizol was banned in the USA and some European countries due to several reported cases of agranulocytosis. It has been extensively used in India and other European countries. Moreover adverse effects data collected over 4 decades shows that risk of toxicity with metamizol is lower than with aspirin.

Nabumetone represents a new class of nonacidic prodrugs. Nabumetone offers distinct advantages over other NSAIDs with regard to low incidence of GI side effects, ulcers and bleeds. Based on available data, nabumetone does not appear to be associated with increased cardiovascular risk5. Nabumetone may cause photosensitivity.

Naproxen provides effective relief in acute traumatic injury and for acute pain associated with migraine, tension headache, postoperative pain, postpartum pain, pain consequent to various gynecologic procedures, and the pain of dysmenorrhea. Naproxen has a lowest risk of provoking heart attack. It may cause photosensitivity.

Oxaprozin has a rapid onset of action and a prolonged duration of action (half-life ranges from 26 to 92 hours). It is mainly used as an anti-inflammatory agent. It also has uricosuric properties and is used in the treatment of gout. Oxaprozin may cause rash and mild photosensitivity.

Piroxicam has a long plasma half-life (38 hours), which permits a single daily dosing. Piroxicam is indicated for long-term use in rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis. Its gastrotoxicity is relatively high.

Sulindac, an analog of indomethacin, is unique among the NSAIDs in not inhibiting prostaglandin synthesis in the kidneys 6. So, it may be one of the safest drugs for treating osteoarthrosis in older people. Sulindac may cause increased liver enzymes.
Comparative efficacy: which NSAID is the best?

It is a common misconception that all NSAIDs are therapeutically equally efficacious and any one of them could be used for the given condition. For example, ankylosing spondylitis responds better to a particular NSAID like indomethacin. It is probably related to its stronger inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis.

Oxaprozin, aspirin, ibuprofen, indomethacin, naproxen, and sulindac have comparable efficacy in the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis.

Oxaprozin, aspirin, naproxen, and piroxicam have comparable efficacy in osteoarthritis.

The analgesic effect of 10 anti-inflammatory drugs was compared using a single-blind method in 90 patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Each patient received two different drugs, for three days each and each drug was evaluated in 18 patients. After the trial, the patients considered which of the drugs they preferred. The greatest relief from pain was achieved by diclofenac, indomethacin, naproxen and tolfenamic acid, each of these being preferred by the majority of patients and being significantly better than the least effective drugs ketoprofen and proquazone. Acetylsalicylic acid, azapropazone, carprofen and ibuprofen were considered intermediate in efficacy.

Side Effects

NSAIDs are associated with a number of side effects. The two main adverse reactions, associated with NSAIDs relate to gastrointestinal effects and renal effects. These effects are dose-dependent, and in many cases severe enough to pose the risk of ulcer perforation, upper gastrointestinal bleeding, and death, limiting the use of NSAID therapy.

Cardiovascular side effects

Diclofenac has a cardiovascular risk very similar to rofecoxib, which was withdrawn from worldwide markets owing to cardiovascular toxicity2.
Naproxen does not appear to increase cardiovascular risk suggesting that it is the safest NSAID with respect to cardiovascular toxicity.

NSAIDs rated by relative risk for cardiovascular events (in ascending order) 2:

Naproxen < Celecoxib < Piroxicam < Ibuprofen < Meloxicam < Indomethacin < Diclofenac < Rofecoxib (at doses more than 25 mg)

Gastrointestinal adverse effects

The main of NSAIDs is that they can cause ulcers and other problems in the esophagus, stomach, or small intestine. Common gastrointestinal side effects include: nausea, vomiting, dyspepsia, peptic ulcers, perforations of the upper gastrointestinal tract, and gastrointestinal bleeding.

Relative risks of gastrointestinal complications 3:

    Low Risk: ibuprofen, aceclofenac, nimesulide, fenoprofen, aspirin, diclofenac, sulindac, nabumetone etodolac
    Medium Risk: diflunisal, naproxen, indomethacin, tolmetin, meloxicam
    High Risk: piroxicam, ketoprofen, azapropazone, flurbiprofen, ketorolac

Risk of ulceration increases with duration of therapy, and with higher doses. In attempting to minimize gastrointestinal side effects, it is prudent to use the lowest effective dose for the shortest period of time. To help protect the stomach, NSAIDs should always be taken with food or directly after a meal.

Hypertension (High blood pressure)

NSAIDs have potentially adverse effects on blood pressure. All NSAID users experience some degree of salt and water retention, and hypertension occurs in less than 10% of users.

NSAIDs-induced hypertension is due to the renal effects of these drugs. Specifically, NSAIDs cause dose-related increases in sodium and water retention. In addition, NSAID use may reduce the effect of antihypertensive drugs except calcium channel blockers.

Kidney damage (nephrotoxicity)

NSAIDs reduce the blood flow to the kidneys, which makes them work more slowly. This is due to the inhibition of production of the vasodilatory renal prostaglandins. When the kidneys are not working well, fluid builds up in the body leading to edema. The more fluid in the bloodstream -- the higher blood pressure. The reduced blood flow can permanently damage the kidneys. It can eventually lead to kidney failure and require dialysis.

Renal impairment is especially a risk if a patient concomitantly takes an ACE inhibitor, a diuretic, or other nephrotoxic agent.

NSAIDs are cleared from the blood stream by the kidney, so it is very important that patients over 65 years of age or patients with kidney disease consult a physician prior to taking them. If patients take an NSAID for an extended period of time (six months or more), a blood test needs to be performed to check for early signs of kidney damage.

Most people with chronic kidney disease are advised to avoid all types of NSAIDs.

Allergic reactions

NSAIDs can also cause extreme allergy. People with asthma are at a higher risk for experiencing serious allergic reaction. Many specialists recommend that people who have asthma stay away from any NSAID, especially if they have sinus problems or nasal polyps. Individuals with a serious allergy to one NSAID are likely to experience a similar reaction to a different NSAID.

Use of aspirin in children and teenagers with chicken pox or influenza has been associated with the development of Reyes's syndrome. Therefore, aspirin and nonaspirin salicylates (e.g. salsalate) should not be used in children and teenagers with suspected or confirmed chicken pox or influenza.

NSAIDs do not cause bleeding, but they make bleeding worse, for example, when there is a cut.

A meta-analysis of 11 case-control studies and one cohort study found that ibuprofen was significantly less toxic than other NSAID.

Serious side effects are especially likely with one nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug, phenylbutazone. Patients of age 40 and over are especially at risk of side effects from phenylbutazone, and the likelihood of serious side effects increases with age. Because of these potential problems, it is especially important to check with a physician before taking this medicine. Never take it for anything other than the condition for which it was prescribed, and never share it with another person.

Contraindications

NSAIDs cannot be used (are contraindicated) in the following cases:

    Allergy to aspirin or any NSAID
    Aspirin should not be used under the age of 16 years
    During pregnancy
    During breast feeding
    On blood thinning agents (anticoagulants)
    Suffering from a defect of the blood clotting system (coagulation)
    Active peptic ulcer

Cost

Numerous NSAIDs are available as generics and include: diclofenac, etodolac, fenoprofen, flurbiprofen, ibuprofen, indomethacin, ketoprofen, meclofenamate, naproxen, piroxicam, sulindac, and tolmetin. Only meloxicam (Mobic), nabumetone (Relafen), and oxaprozin (Daypro) are available by brand name only. Generics may be an equally effective and less expensive option.

Conclusions

All NSAIDs are similarly effective. The choice of which NSAID to try first is usually empiric. If one doesn't provide adequate pain control, try switching to another. All NSAIDs when used chronically can contribute to the development of ulcers. Differences in adverse effects seem to exist between different NSAIDs. Follow with your doctor closely and watch for signs or symptoms of gastrointestinal bleeding such as stomach pain and blood in the stools. Some NSAIDs are available in extended-release formulations that require less frequent dosing.
References & Resources

    1. The Merck Manual of Medical Information. Mark H. Beers et al., eds. 2nd Home Edition. Whitehouse Station, NJ: Merck; 2003.
    2. McGettigan P, Henry D. Use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs that elevate cardiovascular risk. PLoS Med. 2013;10(2):e1001388.
    3. Castellsague J, Pisa F, Rosolen V, Drigo D, Riera-Guardia N, Giangreco M, Clagnan E, Tosolini F, Zanier L, Barbone F, Perez-Gutthann S. Risk of upper gastrointestinal complications in a cohort of users of nimesulide and other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Pharmacoepidemiol Drug Saf. 2013 Apr;22(4):365-75.
    4. Gora-Harper ML, Record KE, Darkow T, Tibbs PA. Opioid analgesics versus ketorolac in spine and joint procedures: impact on healthcare resources. Ann Pharmacother. 2001 Nov;35(11):1320-6.
    5. Bannwarth B. Safety of the nonselective NSAID nabumetone : focus on gastrointestinal tolerability. Drug Saf. 2008;31(6):485-503.
    6. Dunn MJ, Patrono C, Cinotti GA: Prostaglandins and the Kidney: Biochemistry, Physiology and Clinical Applications. New York, Plenum Publishing Corp., 1983.
    7. Zippel H, Wagenitz A. A multicentre, randomised, double-blind study comparing the efficacy and tolerability of intramuscular dexketoprofen versus diclofenac in the symptomatic treatment of acute low back pain. Clin Drug Investig. 2007;27(8):533-43. PubMed

Published: May 05, 2007
Last updated: August 07, 2014

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jan 24th, 2015 at 10:44pm
All too much to absorb, but yes, their are no drugs as of
yet to treat CH's, they are all cross over drugs, that's what
makes it so hard to find drug to suit a particular individual
that works for him/her. We clusterheads are all different.

Hoppy.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 25th, 2015 at 1:50am
Thanks Hoppy,

Lancashire Lad was obviously on a roll posting two large data dumps on vitamin D3 and one on NSAIDs.

I've only a couple of comments.  The first responds to "Is vitamin D3 safe?"

You bet it is !!! And with the exception of oxygen therapy which is also very safe CH abortive, vitamin D3 it's far safer and more healthy as a CH preventative than any of the standards of care preventative medications typically prescribed for CH.

I know safety of nutrients like vitamin D3 can be a concern for some so here are a few factoids... 

In the history of the FDA's adverse reaction database that's been running for 11 years, there hasn't been a single death attributed to vitamin D3.  In the four year's I've been posting about this regimen at CH.com with over 600 CH'ers taking this regimen, there hasn't been a single report of an adverse reaction or vitamin D3 intoxication.

Can you take too much vitamin D3? Yes... but get real, at the sustained doses discussed in this thread, vitamin D3 is very safe...  Drinking too much water can be fatal.

If you want a real scare, click on the following link. It will open up to Naproxen, (Aleve).

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When it comes up, be sure to click on the "show more" hot link under the first set of bar graphs then scroll down to see the number of deaths...  Then enter vitamin D3 and do the same...

After that, enter any of the over-the-counter medications in your kitchen or bathroom cabinet in the search window.  When you're done with the OTCs enter any of the Rx meds you've had prescribed to treat your CH.

Lancashire Lad, if you want to do some real heavy reading before your next post, try GrassrootsHealth and Mercola... Both sites have a wealth of information about vitamin D3. 

If you want to see the mother load of information on vitamin D3, go to Vitamin D Wiki.  Henry Lahore is the prime mover behind this website.  He has multiple web crawlers running 7 X 24 picking up all things vitamin D including hundreds of results from RCTs involving vitamin D3 as the primary method of intervention.  You can spend weeks reading through this website.

Henry also provides an assessment and commentary on most of the RCTs.  He correctly points out when the dose of vitamin D3 is too low, when there are no vitamin D3 cofactors included, and when it appears there's an obvious bias in the conclusions...  In other words, Henry is always very objective in his analysis of articles and studies on vitamin D3.

This is a practice all of us should follow.

Remember, Big Pharma doesn't want people to know how effective vitamin D3 at therapeutic doses (costing 12 cents a day) can be in preventing and treating a wide range of medical conditions...  What was the actual cost of that last injection of sumatriptan succinate (Imitrex)? 

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lancashire Lad on Jan 25th, 2015 at 3:54am
Yes Hoppy too much I agree, and Batch my intention was to draw attention to the fact that by and large we are all victims of a "suck it and see" approach to alleviating the the worst of the worst headaches.

I wasn't having a pop at  your Vit D therapeutic regime, why should I, it works for some?

You mention the safeness of oxygen, you better than most know the toxic and deleterious effects of oxygen at raised and reduced pressure, there are also issues that can be met with over therapeutic use of oxygen at normal atmospheric pressure (note ozone is incredibility lethal, but that is obviously a different molecule to the one we are talking about.

Oxygen is an even more complex subject than Vit D when it comes to interaction with humans.

What I think is important (and it isn't to everyone) is trying to understand the pharmacological effects of natural and synthetic drugs on head pain and their secondary influences on the rest of the body.

I don't medicate well at all, propranalol, at normal doses it knocks me for six as do other Beta and other inhibitors. Yes it can be said its safe but not for me I'm afraid (I'm not talking about causing discomfort propranalol at an accepted normal dose nearly killed me once.

People die from eating nuts and being stung by bees, we are not all the same and do not react the same to so called safe substances. Most people tolerate cannabis some it sends daft. One mans "safe" is another man's poison.

Its not possible to understand all the interactions and  outcomes of drug use for extreme (even moderate) headaches, the subject is too complex which often leaves the experts stumped.

So we have to rely on statistics and empiric data to reach individual solutions And this is, I suppose where I coming from. It has ever been thus. Our forefathers learned which herbs and botanical substances treated various ailments along with the early mushroom pickers; if it didn't kill them and created a desired outcome then try it again and if it works suggest it to someone else and if they die exercise caution in recommending it to anyone else.

Progress is never made by accepting perceived wisdom. To push forward the alleviation of head pain its only by testing, experimenting, analysing and studying that true progress is made. They're still needlessly pulling teeth out in the UK to relieve head pain but occasionally it works that doesn't mean we should all go and have our teeth pulled out. But if I was told by an expert that there was a good chance that I would never have the ultimate headache ever again, I'm not sure I would go along with it but I am confident some would.

"Pharmacology" is derived from the words for the study of poison in classic Greek, in modern Greek it means study of drugs.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 25th, 2015 at 7:05am
Hi Thierry,
I was on Zomig some years ago, but can't say it worked. It's so long ago now I can't remember the dose, but I'm due back with the Doc in two weeks, so I'll talk to him about it.
I use gammaCore which works up to a 7/8 or if you get it early.
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Expensive, but if the D3 works, well, I won't need to use it very often, or ever, please God.
Keep well,
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jan 25th, 2015 at 5:47pm
G'day Lancashire lad, and Batch,
I noticed in your post the part about vitamin D that you
are an Aussie now living in the UK, and grabbing as much
sun as possible during the summer months, not an easy
thing to do at the best of times, being an ex pat myself
now living in the land down under lol, but all jokes aside,
I remember going to my GP a few years ago now, long
before my wife found this website bless her cotton socks
for my annual check up, and when my results came back
he said my vitamin D level was on the low side, and to
pop into the pharmacy on my way home to get some
vitamin D3 tablets, so even being exposed to the sun
wearing shorts and a tea shirt most days of the year
I still wasn't getting enough vitamin D to sustain a healthy
bone structure, but thanks to the vitamin D regime I now
have strong bones, and no CH's.

Cheers, Hoppy.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lancashire Lad on Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:03pm
G'day Hoppy

I have been politely asked to sod off this thread because I have been deemed not very helpful. It's a sentiment that I can relate to and funnily enough one that I found refreshing from this forum. I had started to fear that I had wandered into a Stepford Wives world of headachers where everyone is calm, measured and polite if a little down in the dumps at times.

Me, I'm as angry as hell at the way the whole professional medical community has managed the problem of extreme headaches (there are obviously some great docs out there but many of them are pissing in the wind).

My background is in science and I was often called on to come up with explanations why things had failed (below water, above water, on land and at extreme pressure) but my approach was always that of an engineer rather than a scientist even if my reports read as scientific papers.

I owe you a debt Hoppy, you were kind enough to give me some pointers, I researched my particular problem and found a solutions that appears to be working for me. (whoopi me!)

But I have become v interested in the entire field of extreme headaches and have used my research style to map out markers of common experiences, diagnoses and outcomes. The work is at a very rudimentary level but some interesting interactions are appearing in a multidimensional matrix.

One very simplified (at the moment) area of interest that is flagging is the interactions of Vit D, Calcium, Calciium, Blockers (particularly Verapamil at this rudimentary stage) Blood Pressure, BP Meds., oxygen, Antagonist (eg Kinin), Atmospheric pressure and pressure changes and lifestyle / physical atributes of sufferers vs remission cases and a tiny few identical twin cases. This is not at DNA analysis level except where it cannot be ignored, and other stuff.

I like to work backward from the cause not forward from a serendipitously sent "solution".

I have no gripe with anyone who finds relief from a particular regime and has no interest in how it works, it just does and they are grateful as hell.

Me I like to know how and why things work.

As you are aware there in a ton of research out there, and a  myriad of personal experiences to make use of; the scale of  the task of making sense of the problem is immense

Its not acceptable for someone to suffer for 5 years or longer before their very real extreme misery is tackled by the medical profession even if the solution is gained through trial and error of various remedies. I live in the UK so that invariably means the lucky patient is trialled with the cheapest offering first and then moved up the economic burden scale until a satisfactory regime is identified.

As mentioned I'm butting out, not in a fit of pique but because I don't feel I have anything to offer this group I will send you my email, I would like to keep in touch with you but I don't envisage me coming up with any groundbreaking announcements in the near future. But I was able to identify my problem (with your help) get an MRI and explain to the doc what I thought the problem was quit all my meds; max daily dose of paracetamol, asprin, ibuprofen, codiene 120mg Tramadol 100mg, Amitryptoline 40mg and caffein 720mg. And get the drug that I guessed would work, it did, now I am virtually pain free and playing with the dosage of a single drug Indomethacin. After more than a year of constant headaches and daily v extreme and getiing worse, I think that was a result to achieve all that in less than 3 weeks.

No I'm not Mr Wonderful but when I put my mind to something I generally get results.

Cheers Hoppy and Good Luck to all other members, Luck is an important ingredient to gaining relief from this monster. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jan 25th, 2015 at 11:33pm
G'day Lancashire Lad,
Thanq for your kind words, and was pleased to read things
are working out for you now. Wishing you lots of PFD my
friend.

I find it strange that you are getting some flak from this
thread, nobody is putting a gun to there head that they
have to read it, I must say I found it very interesting after
spending a couple of days absorbing it all lol, and Batch's
input was very enlightening.

Cheers, Hoppy.





Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by wildhaus on Feb 1st, 2015 at 4:12am
Hi,

I am a so called ICCH.  In other words, an Intractable chronic cluster head.

I do not respond to most of the standards of care meds / treatments recommended for CH.
At one point, out of desparation, I underwent a surgical procedure to implant electronic stimulators on my geater occipital nerves (GON) in the back of my head.  Although promising with some relief during the day, the GON stimulation ultimately faild to control my CH at night.  In retrospec, implantation of the GON stimulators was a very expensive gambit that didn't work.

What I can say now with a high degee of certainty is – I've tried all the stadards of care CH preventatives and abortives.  I've also tried experimental medical treatments, and even some of the alternative therapies.  At best, the results were mixed. Few of these treatments proved effective with any measure of lasting relief and most resulted in adverse reactions that made their continued use unacceptable. 

The two treatments that did work were oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation as my CH abortive and the ANTI INFLAMMATORY REGIMEN TREATMENT (AIRT) as my CH preventative.

The primary goal that I as well as my doctors are working towards is:

Provide relive from pain, and provide (me) with the possibility of living a very normal life!

The ANTI INFLAMMATORY REGIMEN TREATMENT  (AIRT) allows me to meet that goal and more !

I have been under very close medical supervision and monitoring with frequent lab tests to check for the possible adverse effects while taking the AIRT.  My Neurologist, my Endocrinologist and my Pain specialist (Anaesthesiologist) team up to view the results of each exam and lab test to help me achieve this goal.
All of them seemed to be very apprehensive about this treatment in the beginning.  Now, after more than a year observing me and all my lab results
very closely, they are happy with the significant reduction in pain symptoms and the complete absense of any adverse effects associated with this regimen. The AIRT is not a cure for CH, but it does provide me with the exciting possibility of an exceptionally good quality of life.  In short, as long as I continue to take this regimen, I no longer suffer from the debilitating effects of CH!  Moreover, there are no adverse side effects !  I might add that the side effects I have experienced are all beneficial...  I feel better, sleep better, I have fewer colds and I have more strength.  I'm likely healthier now than before my CH started.

Another reward of taking this regimen is I enjoy all these benefits at a fraction of the cost of all the standards of care meds I used to take!

Everyone is happy  –  I'm Happy, my Medical insurance company is happy and so are my doctors. The hospital is also happy as I've become one less patient to “clutter” the "over cluttered” waiting room.

Michael

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Feb 1st, 2015 at 1:41pm
I've now gone past the 3 years CH pain free milestone thanks to D3, so another success story for what this can do.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 2nd, 2015 at 10:23pm
Hey Michael,

Your post says it all...  I'm thinking there are likely a few CH'ers still considering neurostimulation implants to control their CH... 

I hope they take your experience as a lesson learned that doesn't need to be repeated...

Take care and thanks for the great post.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Reek T on Feb 3rd, 2015 at 7:17pm
Hi Batch and all the rest,

After nearly a month on the Anti-Inflammatory Regimen I can report fantastic results, five days in my CH were clearly diminishing and now I’m pain free for over two weeks!!!

This is even better than the day I found oxygen. :)

I had to slightly modify the regimen because I have “Gastroparesis” and can not tolerate fish oil. However I can tolerate krill oil, this is the only significant change I have made.

I had my blood tested a few day after I started to check my 25(OH)D unfortunately my neurologist requested the wrong tests.  :(

PFDAN

Rick

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 4th, 2015 at 12:07am
Hey Reek,

Great news.  Thanks for the feedback on your experience with this regimen.  It's a great feeling isn't it?

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 5th, 2015 at 2:53pm
Hey Batch,

I recently started a cycle after being pain-free for over 8 months on this regimen.

Got hit with multiple KIP 5-6 last night.

Currently I'm taking (with dinner):

Fish Oil - Kirkland 2 x 1200 mg (w/ 684 mg of Omega-3)
Magnesium Citrate - Vitamin Shoppe 2 x 200 mg
Centrum Silver
Zinc Oxide - Nature Made 15 mg
K2 - Life Extension Super K
Vitamin C - 4 x 1000 mg (one with dinner, the other 3 throughout the day)

D3 - Nature's Bounty 15,000 IU dissolved in mouth before bedtime

Melatonin - Natrol 10 mg slow release before bedtime

I also added B-50 Complex back into my regimen a few days ago.  The last time I took B-50 for 90 days was from 4/18/14-7/17/14. 

I'm going to start drinking a baking soda tonic 3 times/day to possibly get my arterial pH up a little.

I have an appointment to test my 25(OH)D levels next week.

Anything else you would recommend?  Is it ok that I started the 90-day B-50 dose again?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 5th, 2015 at 5:33pm
Hey Slacker,

Thanks for the update... Falling out of remission while on a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is not uncommon for chronic CH'ers and some episodic types.

We think this is due to competing consumers of vitamin D3 metabolites and the enzymes needed to metabolize them. Our immune system is the likely culprit as it reacts to viral and bacterial infections 7 X 24. 

Infections and allergic reactions happen all the time, but the symptoms may be sub-clinical, so we can have a bug or an allergic reaction and not know it.  A lab test for 25(OH)D at that point would be helpful as a reference point to watch.

The simple solution is a short vitamin D3 loading schedule using a loading dose of 100,000 IU to 200,000 IU of vitamin D3 spread over 3 to 6 days then drop back to a new maintenance dose of 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

For example using a 100,000 IU loading dose, take 50,000 IU of vitamin D3 on day one and 25,000 IU on days two and three. 

The 200,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 can be spread over 6 days, i.e., take 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3 on day one and two, then take 25,000 IU/day on days 3 through 6.

As you'll see in the following chart developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, et al., in the study titled: 25-Hydroxylation of vitamin D3: relation to circulating vitamin D3 under various input conditions, it takes 1 day for a dose of 100,000 IU of vitamin D3 to reach peak serum concentration and 7 days for the liver to metabolize that dose of vitamin D3 into a peak serum concentration of 25(OH)D.

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If the 25(OH)D serum concentration is low, the 25(OH)D response to a loading dose of 100,000 IU of vitamin D3 is an average gain of 13.6 ng/mL on top of the starting serum concentration.  If your present 25(OH)D serum concentration is around 65 to 75 ng/mL, the 25(OH)D response to a loading dose of 100,000 will be less, around 8 to 10 ng/mL.

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Feb 5th, 2015 at 7:04pm
slacker wrote, Melatonin - Natrol 10 mg slow release before bedtime.

Hi slacker,
Slow release Melatonin is less effective than regular
Melatonin when it comes to getting through the night without that visit from the  [smiley=evil.gif]

Cheers, Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 5th, 2015 at 7:08pm
Hey Batch,

Thanks for replying.  I've actually been on a maintenance dose of 15,000 IU for awhile now. 

Should I bump it up to 20,000 IU per day?

So I would do a 200,000 IU loading dose over 6 days and then drop down to 20,000 IU?  Or should I stick with 15,000 after the loading dose?

Also, do you still recommend dissolving the loading dose amounts in the side of your mouth before bedtime?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 5th, 2015 at 7:40pm

Hoppy wrote on Feb 5th, 2015 at 7:04pm:
slacker wrote, Melatonin - Natrol 10 mg slow release before bedtime.

Hi slacker,
Slow release Melatonin is less effective than regular
Melatonin when it comes to getting through the night without that visit from the  [smiley=evil.gif]

Cheers, Hoppy.


Interesting...I had always heard the opposite.

How many mg and is there any particular brand you recommend?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Feb 5th, 2015 at 10:21pm
Hi slacker,
In the UK you can only get them on prescription from
from your GP, which are the slow release Melatonin, and
By all the reports I've come across they are ineffective when using them to stop that nightly visit from the beast. Here downunder you can only get low dose regular ones over the counter. I get mine online from the Biovea website 5mg tablets. You need to take 5-15mg before bed.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 5th, 2015 at 11:56pm
Thanks Hoppy...I'll give it a shot.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 6th, 2015 at 4:32am
Slacker,

Good questions...  I'd opt for the 200,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 spread over 6 days then drop to a maintenance dose of 15,000 IU/day. Be sure to keep your magnesium intake between 500 and 750 mg/day while loading.  Higher doses of vitamin D3 consume magnesium rapidly.

Your call on how to take the vitamin D3. Popping the liquid softgels between the back teeth and holding the contents between the cheek and gums for 10 to 15 minutes gets the vitamin D3 into the bloodstream a little faster.  I use this method if I sense the beast is lurking and about to jump ugly on me...  the rest of the time I swallow the softgels.

You should be completely pain free by the sixth day so if you get an up-tic in CH, up the daily dose of vitamin D3 from 15,000 IU/day to 20,000 IU/day for a couple weeks then drop back to 15,000 IU/day and see what happens. 

A trip to your PCP would be prudent after a month or so for the lab test of your 25(OH)D.  If it's up over 80 ng/mL your PCP may want to do the serum calcium and PTH lab tests...  No biggie...  In over 4 years with hundreds of CH'ers taking this regimen, we've yet to have any CH'er report his or her serum calcium concentration above its normal reference range.  Your PTH should be in the lower third of its normal reference range.

During the high pollen spring time and fall leaf mold, I need to carry an average vitamin D3 intake of 20,000 IU/day in order to stay pain free.  When it appears the pollen has cleared, i.e., no longer coating my pickup... I drop back to 15,000 IU/day for a couple weeks and then down to 10,000 IU/day as long as there are no burn through hits.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 6th, 2015 at 10:58am
Hello Batch and all my other friends in clusterville!
It's been a while and I thought it time to check in with an update.

This January marks the fourth year since my last cycle (on average it seems I get these every four years). I've been taking the anti-inflammatory regimen since then; backing off in the summer months when I'm outside in the sun more and increasing the dosage during the long gray days of central Ohio winters.

The last few years around October or November I have had an experience that seems to indicate I'm going to go into cycle but when I upped the D3, that went away.
 
Last September I had my 25(OH)D checked and it was at 83.1. As November rolled around and I started getting the signs associated with maybe getting the beast(?) I upped the vitamin D and all seemed well.

In all honesty, from the middle of December to the middle of Jan this year, I was a bit Cavalier about the regularity of taking the Vit. D and about three weeks ago started experiencing that old familiar feeling.

At that time I also got hit with a decent cold and a week into that had what I could only describe as a bonafide hit from the beast. But...this was a completely different experience from the usual in that there was almost NO pain, just what I could describe as an "annoyance" of very slight pain and an on again, off again tightening of the muscles in my neck and shoulder throughout out the week.
This happened again three days ago wherein I got religious about doing all the supplements recommended.
This morning about 4:00 I had another episode: I was awoken out of a deep dreaming sleep with a "bang" (how the beast usually arrives) and the ramping up of the "annoyance" that lasted about ten to fifteen minutes then subsided; again there was almost no pain but all the other hallmarks of the cluster were there. So, I'm wondering if I'm in a cycle?
Batch, I just read your post about the increased need of D3 when we have an infection (I'm thinking my cold); which is incredible timing that I saw that just now. So, I have decided to up my D3 to the loading dose of which you speak, I start today.

I'll be keeping in touch more often with updates on how this is working for me and any other related experiences.  I'm so hoping this is going to be the solution and that I can escape a visit from the damn demon.

Batch, I do want to give you my most sincere appreciation and thanks for keeping this thread going for the past more than four years. I don't post much since I don't get these that often (thank goodness), but I do check in now and again and I am awestruck by your tenacity and research, and by your continued encouragement to all of us.

Sincerely,
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 6th, 2015 at 12:06pm

Batch wrote on Feb 6th, 2015 at 4:32am:
Slacker,

Good questions...  I'd opt for the 200,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 spread over 6 days then drop to a maintenance dose of 15,000 IU/day. Be sure to keep your magnesium intake between 500 and 750 mg/day while loading.  Higher doses of vitamin D3 consume magnesium rapidly.


I'll up my magnesium citrate dose from 400 mg to 600 mg for the next 5 days while I take the 200,000 IU loading dose.  I took the first 50,000 IU dose last night before bed.

Thanks Batch...I'll keep you guys updated.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2015 at 10:57am
Hey Gary,

Thank you for the update and kind words...  Good on you for connecting the dots between a viral infection and falling out of remission.  I'm confident the course of action you've laid out will be effective in keeping you pain free and clear of the other CH symptoms.

Feedback like yours is very important for all of us as it increases the knowledge base on this regimen.  Finding out what happens when you skip doses of this regimen is also important...  Lessons learned this way tend to stick with us...

As an old hand with this regimen you may have missed the addition of a 3-month course of vitamin B 50.  I added this to the list of supplements over a year ago at the suggestion of Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD, a neurologist in Tyler, TX.

Believe it or not, she's a neurologist who's been prescribing a similar vitamin D3 regimen for her patients with sleep, chronic pain and headache disorders for a lot longer than me.  The only difference between the anti-inflammatory regimen and what she prescribes is a tests for vitamin B12 and the 3-month course of vitamin B 50.

I had a long conversation with her as she explained her history with this regimen.  For the first 2 years after she started prescribing it for her patients, she was on top of the world as nearly all her patients experienced restful sleep and a lasting pain free response to her regimen...

Then over the course of the following year, some of her long-term, very satisfied users of her regimen started calling her saying it was no longer working for them.  She ran the standard labs for 25(OH)D, calcium, PTH and even checked some of the other related labs...  All of them came back indicating 25(OH)D was near 80 ng/mL and the other labs were within their normal reference ranges.

Out of the blue, one of her patients who had reported this regimen was no longer working, called to say it started working again very effectively...  Her patient added the only possible explanation was that she had started taking one of the B vitamins a week earlier...

Dr. Gominack said the light came on bright so she started testing her non-responders for vitamin B12 as an indication of overall B-vitamin status...  Sure enough, most of them had a low vitamin B12 status.  At that point she took the shotgun approach and prescribed the 3-month course of vitamin B 50...  A tablet formulated with 50 mg of each of the seven B vitamins plus 400 mg of Folic acid.  Long story made short... it worked!

I made a change to the list of supplements I take and now suggest swapping out the Kirkland calcium citrate with magnesium and zinc in favor of the Kirkland Mature Multi.  The Mature multi is also formulated with calcium, magnesium, zinc and boron, but adds vitamin A (retinol), all seven B vitamins and Folic acid along with a number of other micronutrients.

I also swapped out the Nature Made 400 mg magnesium  liquid softgels in favor of the Kirkland 250 mg magnesium citrate liquid softgels.  500 to 750 mg/day magnesium during vitamin D3 loading helps.

Finally, the question I like to ask CH'ers... "Have you started the rest of your family on this regimen?"

The health benefits of this regimen are hard to ignore.  Besides that, with our healthcare system going down the dumper...  a healthy preventative for a long list of medical conditions costing 35 to 40 cents a day is a prudent move.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Feb 7th, 2015 at 5:33pm
Batch wrote, I also swapped out the Nature Made 400 mg magnesium  liquid softgels in favor of the Kirkland 250 mg magnesium citrate liquid softgels.  500 to 750 mg/day magnesium during vitamin D3 loading helps.

Hi Batch,
Are you saying you no longer need to take 400mg
of Magnesium citrate /day if you take a Kirkland
Mature Multi 1/day, if your only taking 10,000iu
vitamin D maintenance dose.

Cheers, Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 7th, 2015 at 11:31pm
Hey Hoppy,

Not at all...  Even though I switched from the calcium citrate to the Mature Multi, I was still taking at least a 400 mg softgel of the Nature Made Magnesium Oxide.  I just swapped that out for two of the 250 mg magnesium citrate softgels.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Feb 7th, 2015 at 11:46pm
Hi Batch,
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 8th, 2015 at 12:14pm
Thanks Batch!
That is great information to have. I did notice your changes and have followed suit. I was unable to find the B50 when I needed it so I picked up a good multivitamin/mineral which has all the B's etc.
I found a K2 with only MK7, but grabbed it anyway since I was desperate to begin that at the time; so I will look online for the Super K you've suggested.

And...great news! As of day three on the loading dose no further evidence of the beast! Actually almost all the symptoms were gone as of the end of day one. I noticed I'm also sleeping deeper and better; not waking up at four or five and unable to get back to sleep as was happening most of December and January.

I do have a question; since B's are water soluble, why only the three month dose? Just curious.
Thanks!
Gary


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2015 at 3:27pm
Hey Gary,

Thanks for the fast update and great news. I was confident a short vitamin D3 loading schedule would do the trick.

The 3-month course of vitamin B 50 is basically a loading regimen to take care of any deficiencies among the seven B vitamins.  After that, the typical mature multi formulated with the seven B vitamins at RDA should maintain them in a healthy range.

You've just completed what I call a 25(OH)D burn down test.  I do these tests a couple times during the year by intentionally stopping the entire regimen to see how long it takes to get hit. 

That's a stupid thing to do according to my wife... and she's correct... but it does give me needed information.  For example, the time to first hit after stopping this regimen varies from 8 days down to 2 days depending on the time of the year.  The time back to a pain free state varies with loading dose and time of the year.

I've found that taking one or two 50,000 IU loading doses of vitamin D3 and doubling the maintenance dose for a week or two adequate after one of these burn-down tests.  I'm usually back completely pain free in less than 24 hours during the summer and 48 hours during the winter.  I use the same loading schedule at the first sign a cold or allergic reaction.

There are several studies indicating seasonal variations in serum 25(OH)D concentrations can be as high as 25 ng/mL, (65 nmol/L) between a Fall high and a Spring low.  What we're also discovering is any medical condition that triggers a significant immune system response can cause 25(OH)D serum concentrations to drop by nearly the same magnitude as the seasonal variations.  That makes a winter cold or flu the worse case scenario.

As the 50/50 tipping point or 25(OH)D serum concentration threshold for CH is likely in a range around 50 ± 10 ng/mL, (125 ± 25 nmol/L), maintaining an average 25(OH)D serum concentration close to 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L) provides an adequate reserve and buffer in most cases. 

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 8th, 2015 at 3:31pm

Batch wrote on Feb 8th, 2015 at 3:27pm:

You've just completed what I call a 25(OH)D burn down test.  I do these tests a couple times during the year by intentionally stopping the entire regimen to see how long it takes to get hit. 

That's a stupid thing to do according to my wife... and she's correct... but it does give me needed information.  For example, the time to first hit after stopping this regimen varies from 8 days down to 2 days depending on the time of the year.  The time back to a pain free state varies with loading dose and time of the year.


Wow...talk about taking one for the team.  You're awesome, Batch.

Btw, is it ok that I started another 90-day round of B-50 after having gone through one between 4/18/2014 - 7/17/2014?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2015 at 5:12pm
Slacker,

Trust me...  As a chronic CH'er, I don't like CH pain any more that the next CH'er. Accordingly, I restart this regimen at the first hint of an attack. I pop the first of two 25,000 IU doses of vitamin D3 between my back teeth and hold the contents between my cheek and gums for 10 minutes.  I take the second 25,000 IU dose of vitamin D3 the same way 10 minutes later.  This gets the vitamin D3 absorbed and into my bloodstream as fast at possible.  I also take 750 mg magnesium and the rest of the cofactors in short order.

We're still in uncharted waters with respect to follow up 3-month courses of vitamin B 50.  I don't think a week of vitamin B 50 will cause any problems, but I'll check with Dr. Gominak and let you know what she says.  I do recall she was fairly adamant that the course of vitamin B 50 should be taken daily for no more than 3 months. It might be prudent to get a vitamin B12 lab test to see if it's really needed.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 8th, 2015 at 5:31pm
Batch...a question on the B-50 complex. Should it be stopped after the 90 days? Is it not safe or necessary to continue taking it after the 90 day period? While taking the B-50 I felt really good during the day, that's why I ask.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 8th, 2015 at 5:54pm

Batch wrote on Feb 8th, 2015 at 5:12pm:
We're still in uncharted waters with respect to follow up 3-month courses of vitamin B 50.  I don't think a week of vitamin B 50 will cause any problems, but I'll check with Dr. Gominak and let you know what she says.  I do recall she was fairly adamant that the course of vitamin B 50 should be taken daily for no more than 3 months. It might be prudent to get a vitamin B12 lab test to see if it's really needed.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Thank you...that would be great.  I'll look into getting my B12 levels tested.

I'm currently taking my D3 dose before bedtime while the rest of the regimen is taken with dinner.  I hope that's ok.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2015 at 7:51pm
Slacker,

Taking your vitamin D3 before bed is OK.  It still gets absorbed in the same area of the lower small intestine no matter when you take it. 

After doing some additional reading on this topic, it turns out results from studies on vitamin D3 absorption are all over the chart.   Accordingly, there's no clear consensus on when to take vitamin D3 other than at the same time each day so you get into a routine.

I still recommend taking all the other cofactors on top of the largest meal of the day primarily to prevent an upset tummy from the magnesium, calcium and Omega-3 fish oil that's easy to get if taken on an empty stomach.  Doing this also lessens the probability of osmotic diarrhea from the magnesium.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 8th, 2015 at 8:16pm
Thanks Batch...will do.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Feb 9th, 2015 at 4:27pm
Hi Batch and and my special friends!

Just checking in.  Update on me.  I found the "Batch" a couple of years ago and had my bouts aborted quickly using the D3 regimen.  I had not been too fastidious about keeping the regimen going.  However at the end of last year I did and importantly kept testing.  Apologies for the British/European Units.  But at the end of last summer my 25OHD3 serum level was 280, the lab contacted me and asked that i saw my doctor.  I managed to get an appointment 5 weeks later and had been taking the loading dose through the summer and then a 10,000 IU maintenance dose.  My serum level was just over 400 n/mol per litre, I had the calcium checks done and I was fine. My doctor advised me to stop taking the D3 for a period of time but understood why I would not.  I dropped to 5000IU per day with cofactors.  Today I have had another test come back and I am 297.3nmol/L.  I am so pleased as I am normally in the region of just under 100nmol/L now and we all know what that means.  So I have no headaches at the moment, I would normally start in the next month, so I am going to continue on 5K IU per day with a couple of extra once a week and keep my fingers crossed. 
Thanks for the updates on the merged cofactors and the B50, have ordered them and will move to them when they come.  I so hope this will be the first spring in 18 years without you know what, fingers crossed.
Thank you Batch again, the greatest thing we can do is to impact positively on other people's lives, that is what you do my friend.
Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 9th, 2015 at 10:26pm
Batch,

Forgot to ask:

With the Kirkland brand Magnesium Citrate gels, the serving size is 2 softgels which amount to 250 mg.  So when you say you take 750 mg while loading, are you taking 6 of these softgels?

Also, is the 11 mg of Zinc in the Kirkland Mature Multi sufficient or do you recommend adding another Zinc supplement to that?  Currently I'm taking the Multi plus another 15 mg of Zinc Oxide.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:03pm
Ian,

Thank you for the kind words and great feedback.  As you've pointed out, managing this regimen doesn't take rocket science, but it does help to take a few lab tests and a well kept record of doses...  That's a small price to pay for a wonderful pain free quality of life when you have CH...

It's also comforting to know the risks of vitamin D3 intoxication are very low even if you jack your 25(OH)D serum concentration over 400 nmol/L, (160 ng/mL). It's even more comforting to see 25(OH)D concentrations this high drop nicely when you lower the dose of vitamin D3.

The real Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy opine the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication, as indicated by an elevated serum calcium, is likely between 500 and 750 nmol/L, (200 and 300 ng/mL). 

They'll also tell you running your 25(OH)D serum concentration this high is like running a dragster engine on nitrous oxide...  You're bound to burn a piston if you use too much.

Thank you again for the update.  Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:15pm
Slacker,

That lab that you told me about where you get your tests done...which one is it again?

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:17pm

TheAndyT wrote on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:15pm:
Slacker,

That lab that you told me about where you get your tests done...which one is it again?

-Andy


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Use this code to get 10% off: USAVE10

With the code, it comes out to $53.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:20pm
Slacker,

Thanks again, buddy!!

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:22pm
No prob...good luck!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:40pm
Hey Slacker,

You're spot on regarding the Kirkland Magnesium Citrate serving size.  2 capsules for 250 mg and 6 for 750 mg. 

I suggest taking between 500 and 750 when loading vitamin D3.  You get 50 mg magnesium from the mature multi, so 4 of the Kirkland magnesium citrate capsules adds up to a total of 550 mg of supplemental magnesium and that should be more than sufficient. 

I also eat a few handfuls of mixed nuts or almonds a day so that brings my total magnesium intake from dietary and supplemental magnesium to at least 750 mg/day.

I've a few friends who take upwards of 1000 mg/day magnesium from all sources... but they split the supplemental doses between AM and PM to avoid osmotic diarrhea.

Hand, leg or foot cramps without any recent strenuous physical activity while loading vitamin D3 are an indication of insufficient magnesium.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:44pm
Batch,

Thank you. 

How about Zinc?  Is the 11 mg in the Kirkland Mature Multi sufficient or do we need another source as well?  Currently, I'm taking the Multi plus another 15 mg of Nature Made Zinc Oxide.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 10th, 2015 at 1:46am
Slacker,

Sorry about that...  The Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University sets the gold standards for vitamins and minerals. 

They list the RDA for zinc at 11 mg/day...  You can bump that to 50 mg/day for a week or so if you feel like you're coming down with a cold... or you already have one.

Zinc plays several roles in the anti-inflammatory regimen...  There are over 300 different enzymes depend on zinc for their ability to catalyze vital chemical reactions.

Zinc finger proteins have been found to regulate gene expression by acting as transcription factors (binding to DNA and influencing the transcription of specific genes like genes with vitamin D3 receptors).

You can find much more about zinc at the following link:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 10th, 2015 at 3:10pm
Slacker,

Which location do you personally use for the blood work and do they require an appointment?

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 11th, 2015 at 2:48pm
Gotcha...thanks again Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Feb 11th, 2015 at 2:50pm

TheAndyT wrote on Feb 10th, 2015 at 3:10pm:
Slacker,

Which location do you personally use for the blood work and do they require an appointment?

-Andy


Yes, they require an appt.  Just go to START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE and schedule it.  I go to the one in Van Nuys.

Make sure you bring a printout of the requisition from Direct Labs.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 11th, 2015 at 3:41pm
Slacker,

Will do. I appreciate your help and time.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 16th, 2015 at 9:41pm
Batch,

So yesterday I came up with a throat and ear infection. Today I went to see the doctor and I was prescribed two pills of Amoxicillin a day for 10 days. I have upped my dose of D3 from 10,000IU to 15,000IU while I get over the infection. My concern is that I have an appointment to check my D3 levels on Friday and I was wondering if the antibiotics or the infection might affect the outcome of the test. Should I wait until after the infection is gone and I am no longer on the antibiotics? Or is all this irrelevant to the outcome? I can always make another appointment. Either way it's not a problem. What do you think?

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Feb 17th, 2015 at 2:34am
I'd be tempted to wait until your infection is over and you're back on an even keel, i.e. fully recovered.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 17th, 2015 at 10:07am
Hey Andy,

It's dealer's choice.  You can wait until after the dust settles for the 25(OH)D lab test or get it now.  If you're completely pain free, knowing your 25(OH)D now will be a good data point.  If you're still having an occasional hit... having the lab test now will give you another data point that's also good to know.

If your 25(OH)D serum concentration is already around 75 ng/mL, a few days taking vitamin D3 at 15,000 IU/day instead of your regular maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day shouldn't shift it up by more than a couple points.

Amoxicillin is a moderate-spectrum antibotic so your doc was pretty sure the throat and ear infection was bacterial in origin and not viral.  The downside of most antibiotics is they usually wipe out the friendly colonies of bacteria, archaebacteria and fungi living in the GI tract. 

These single-celled microorganisms lining the GI tract are referred to as the microbiome.  Much of the latest research has found the microbiome makes up a significant part of our immune system.  When it's insulted by antibiotics, we tend to feel a little off or not fully up to speed.

As soon as you've completed the 10-day course of Amoxicillin, taking probiotics will help recolonize the gut and get it working properly as fast as possible.  Fresh kimchi, active yogurt cultures and fresh fruit smoothies also help rebuild the microbiome.

If you start having CH burn-through hits, don't be afraid to take a 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 and up the daily vitamin D3 intake to 20,000 IU/day until the infection symptoms are completely gone.  Just make sure you're taking at least 400 mg/day magnesium and all the other cofactors.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 17th, 2015 at 12:17pm
Batch,

That was a very interesting read. I will grab myself a bottle of probiotics to take after the 10 days are up. Also, I think I will put the blood work on hold until after my illness is gone. Thank you so much for the help. Will keep you updated.

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 17th, 2015 at 10:28pm
Andy,

Good move on both counts...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 18th, 2015 at 2:53am
Hey Andy,
                   recently went thru a course of strong antibiotic's as well, I too then got some probiotics afterwards.   
but make sure you go for the live culture ones, out of the fridge at your pharmacy, you pay a bit more but they are the better ones..........

regards
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 18th, 2015 at 3:10am
Colin,
I had never heard of those. I will make sure to go for the live culture ones  :)

Thanks for the recommendation!

-Andy


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sue_g on Feb 18th, 2015 at 6:20am
Hey Batch and all :)
I just want to say thank you for your time and support you give to all of us, your deeply appreciated... which that is even an under statement.
Thats it folks!
Bless you and your family Batch  [smiley=heart.gif]   [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif][smiley=engel017.gif] [smiley=engel017.gif] [smiley=engel017.gif] [smiley=engel017.gif] [smiley=engel017.gif] [smiley=engel017.gif] [smiley=engel017.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif] [smiley=hug.gif]

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 18th, 2015 at 12:29pm
Hey Sue,

Thanks for the kind words...   Doing what I've been doing for other CH'ers over the last four years continues to be a hoot and very rewarding.   That said, as a chronic CH'er, I've got skin in the game too. 

The feedback from other CH'ers helps all of us learn more about this regimen and how to make it as effective as possible in preventing CH... Moreover, the health benefits from taking this regimen are hard to ignore...

Take care and hugs.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Feb 18th, 2015 at 9:23pm

Batch wrote on Feb 18th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
Moreover, the health benefits from taking this regimen are hard to ignore...


I totally agree with this, ignoring the minor matter of being CH pain free for over 3 years, I've had a small fraction of the normal coughs, colds, bugs and stuff that I'd normally pick up. Plus I've had more than a few comments from doctors and the like when looking at blood test results as the results surprise them for being much better than they'd expect they should be. And who am I to complain about them being surprised like that?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Feb 19th, 2015 at 12:48am
Hi Andy,
                 im not sure if they actually call them live culture or not,  but when I went into the chemist looking at the shelves for a probiotic, couldn't decide which one was better, I asked the pharmacist and she took me to a fridge where all the good ones are kept. it was interesting because there were different types for different issues, but the one I got was after telling here I was on strong antibiotics, the more live goodies in the bottle varies as well.
One interesting comment was she said, and I did read else where, don't wait till after you've finished the course of antibiotics, take them at the same time !  To late for me as I went in after i'd finished the antibiotics, batch might have some knowledge on this, but I did go home and google and read about best to take with the antibiotics. I suppose if it has no effect on the medication, then its probably prudent to take them at the same time......

cheers
colin
            

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 19th, 2015 at 1:55pm
Hmmm this is all very interesting. I am wondering if a good bottle of probiotics for 30 days will be enough to rebuild the microbiome and if a one shot deal is good enough or keep taking it every month??


-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 19th, 2015 at 3:45pm
Colin,

This is a very interesting topic...  There used to be two schools of thought on when to start probiotics if you're being treated with an anitbiotic.

The first argues why waste the probiotic while still taking an antibiotic. If the antibiotic and probiotic are in the GI tract at the same time, there's a high probability the anitbiotic will wipe out the probiotic as fast as it's taken.  There is also a reasonable logic that the probiotics will consume a portion of the antibiotic lessening its effectiveness in stopping the bacterial infection elsewhere in the body.

The other school of thought is keep replacing and recolonizing the friendly bacteria in the GI tract with probiotics taken daily while taking the antibiotic...  Some of these friendly bacteria might just survive.  Moreover, the probiotic will help calm down the gut and help prevent diarrhea.

Well... the following is the best answer I can find...  I was wrong and stand corrected suggesting to wait until the 10-day course of antibiotic was completed...

I just spent the better part of two hours going over several articles and published results from clinical trials on this very topic... The consensus is take probiotics daily along with the antibiotic.  Separating the two by 12 hours is likely a good idea as is taking the right kind of probiotic as you'll see in the following.

"Most of these trials used different strains of Lactobacilli, Bifidobacteria, or Saccharomyces boulardii. Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium are two of the most common genera used as probiotics, so these supplements are readily available in most health food stores or vitamin shops. S. boulardii is actually a beneficial yeast rather than a bacteria, so it’s particularly useful during antibiotic treatment because the antibiotics can’t kill it."

"S. boulardii is also preferable under these circumstances because there’s no risk of it harboring genes for antibiotic resistance and later transferring those genes to pathogenic bacteria."

A couple of the easy to read articles on probiotics are at the following links:

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Nearly all the articles suggested fresh fermented veggies like kimchi and unsweetened live yogurt...  Add your own fresh fruit.

So along come the prebiotics... essentially food for the friendly bacteria...

"However, you can’t expect manufactured probiotic and prebiotic supplements to achieve the diversity of an ancestral microbiome on their own."

As always...  remember to discuss prebiotics and probiotics with the physician who prescribes the antibiotic...

Take care.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 19th, 2015 at 4:21pm
Batch, Colin,

Thank you for the very interesting and importantly useful information.  I feel that I can now make an educated choice on my probiotic needs. Thank you both for your research and sharing with us!

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by avalon on Feb 20th, 2015 at 7:45am
Hi, I have chronic insomina and recently headaches.

I have been trying Vitamin d3 (twinlab vit d3 & K sublingual) @ 1000iu a day and vitamin k and small does of topical magnesium spray. I'm trying to follow Dr Gominak's protocol, initially taking 400 iu and building up, in the earlier days may sleep had improved, may body pain also.
However, I started to get headaches and my legs were more painful than normal on waking. So I upped my magnesium a little which seemed to help.

Also I noticed when I upped the vitamin d3 dose to 2000iu, I felt quite depressed. I have dropped the dose back to 1000iu taken early morning but feel sleepy all day and funny head sensation. I do take Thorne multivitamin a couple times a week, this contains methyl B12. I note that the vitamin d3 seems to amplify sleepiness, spaciness, foggy during the day. I feel sometimes I'm in a stupor & euphoria after taking my morning vitamin d3 dose.

Q) Does Dr Gominak specify morning or evening to take D3? I know its trial and error, its a little confusing as some say to take early morning as this enhances nighttime sleep others say take in the evening time.
Any guidance would warmly appreciated. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:27am
Hey Avalon,

Welcome to CH.com.  You've come to the right place.  Good questions too, but let's star with your headaches. 

Have you talked to your PCP or a neurologist about your headaches?  If not, you should.  Headaches are not normal.

Regarding vitamin D3 taken as part of Dr. Stasha Gominak's regimen or part of the anti-inflammatory regimen many cluster headache sufferers here at CH.com take to prevent their CH. 

Both regimen are very similar.  Dr. Gominak and I have discussed both regimen and she convinced me to add the 3-month course of vitamin B 50.  Both regimen result in better, more restful sleep.  We also suggest the vitamin D3 be taken with the largest meal of the day to increase absorption.

We start with higher doses of vitamin D3 than Dr. Gominak.  She shoots for a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 to 80 ng/mL which requires a vitamin D3 intake of 5000 to 10,000 IU/day plus all the cofactors.

As cluster headache sufferers, (CH'ers) we shoot for a target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 80 ng/mL and that requires roughly 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus all the cofactors.

As you can see from the following chart developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, it takes 5,000 IU/day of vitamin D3 to achieve a 25(OH)D response of 60 ng/mL, and that a vitamin D3 dose of 1000 to 2000 IU/day is too low to achieve a meaningful therapeutic effect.

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Regarding the spaciness and foggy feeling during the day...  How much sleep are you getting at night?  I've survey results from 127 CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen and there are no reports of spaciness or foggy feeling during the day.

What other medications are you taking?

The "Go To" link with info on all the anti-inflammatory supplements, their doses, drug interactions and contraindications follows:

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The following table represents the latest list of anti-inflammatory regimen supplements and doses:

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I've found the following supplements shown by brand in the photo below are formulated with most of the supplements we need.  I buy them at Costco, but you should be able to find similar formulations at most Vitamin Shoppes, supermarkets, Wall-Mart or over the Internet:

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If you can’t get to a Costco outlet, a CH’er in the UK has found a source for all the needed supplements at iherb.com.  See his post at the following link for details on how to order them over the Internet:

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The vitamin B 50 is not shown.  You’ll need a 3-month course of vitamin B 50 to handle any deficiencies among the seven B vitamins.  Although the Super K with vitamin K2 complex isn't essential in preventing CH, it is needed to handle the increased serum calcium made available by taking vitamin D3 at the doses we take.

There are a growing number of studies finding the super K2 complex helps direct calcium away from soft tissues and arteries directing it instead to bones and teeth improving overall bone mineral density.

There are also a number of studies that have addressed the optimum ratio of calcium-magnesium supplements.  The general consensus is to keep these two supplements at a 2:1, magnesium:calcium ratio.  Many of us have found 400 mg/day magnesium is sufficient.

We've found that taking a vitamin D3 dose of 5000 to 10,000 IU/day depletes magnesium rapidly unless we take at least 400 mg/day magnesium...  Hand and leg cramps are an indication you're not taking sufficient amount of magnesium

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 23rd, 2015 at 10:42am
Hi Everyone!
Time for a group update on this recent cycle.
So far I'm 22 days along. Of those 22, I've had eight headache days for a total of 10 hits. Three hits have been intense enough I needed to resort to aborting them with Oxygen. And I've not had to use Imitrex once, (yet).

After experiencing the second hit and I became certain that this was indeed a new cycle starting, I began taking the D3 regimen loading dose recommended by Batch (I had accidentally "burned down" my D3 and then got a decent cold virus).

So far this is the most mild cycle I've had in my life. The pain has never climbed beyond a kip 5 or 6. Some headaches have been so mild and short lived I wondered if I was actually experiencing one.

By comparison, my last cycle four years ago: in 22 days I had 17 headache days with up to 10 hits per day (I would abort with O2, then would get another hit an hour later, and repeat that scenario 6-7 times; and then resort to Imitrex for a longer lasting PF period). I was using two nasal spray Imitrex per day during most of those days. And the pain was always in the kip 8-9 range.

So, I'm more convinced the D3 is doing its thing.

It seems, however, that as this cycle is progressing it is getting a bit more intense, as is usual for my cycle; thought still not as terrible as what I'm historically used to.

Yesterday morning and again today I needed to abort with O2 (two days in a row...hmmm?). Though at least the CH stays gone once the O2 has done its thing; no "rebound" headaches so far this cycle. 
And I've noticed a "pattern" that I've been on a maintenance dose of 20,000 IU per day, but after 3 days virtually PF, I get a more intense hit. So then I up-dose to 50,000 IU and am fine for several days at 20,000 then get hit again.

Batch, as always, any input is appreciated.
That's about all for now, I'll keep everyone posted as to further developments.
Gary





Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:05pm
Well, I spoke too soon.
Got a hit just now at 11:30 and over twenty minutes it started to ramp up to a kip 6 and since I've got work to do I snorted an Imitrex.
I thought about using O2 but that can take me up to 10 mins to abort and I needed something faster.
Still, first us of Imitrex for this cycle, which is saying something.
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 23rd, 2015 at 1:53pm
Hey Gary,

Thanks for the updates.  I know what you're going through.  The good news is the transient hits will dissipate as your 25(OH)D serum concentration builds and the cold symptoms fully subside.

I discovered this exact same pattern in 2012, while doing one of my 25(OH)D reserve burn down tests by intentionally stopping the entire regimen.  It took a week to deplete my 25(OH)D down to the first hit.  What I hadn't planned was coming down with a cold at the same time.

I restarted the regimen and doubled the daily dose to 20,000 IU/day as I had during previous burn down tests fully expecting no further hits...  but $hit happened... and the hits didn't stop. 

It took nearly a week with one or two hits a night and the clue bird making repeated low passes before I connected the dots...  Low 25(OH)D, viral infection (cold) and an immune system response...  Two laws had gone into effect at the same time...  The law of unintended consequences (the cold) and the law of supply and demand (the cold and immune system response were likely consuming vitamin D3 as fast as I was taking it).

It took two days at 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and 600 mg/day magnesium to get me back to a pain free state.  I kept my vitamin D3 intake at 20,000 IU/day until the last of the cold symptoms... a nagging cough finally disappeared.  In short, lesson learned.

Regarding oxygen therapy not working fast enough...  have you tried my latest method?  It's basically hyperventilating with room air at forced vital capacity tidal volumes for 30 seconds followed by a lung full of 100% oxygen that's held for 30 seconds.  Repeat this sequence two or three times an you'll be surprised how fast you can abort a CH.

See the following link for all the details:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 24th, 2015 at 8:27am
Thanks Batch, I didn't know about your revised room air/O2 trick. I will certainly be trying that one!
No headache this morning but some weird shadow that felt like the beast was in there at full force, trying to break out but couldn't and didn't know how. That lasted about half an hour and is now gone.
To help keep it down I took ˝ tsp baking soda in water and popped a 2,000 IU D3 at the back of my mouth and held it there.
I'm loving all these new tricks!
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 24th, 2015 at 9:11am
Well, once again I spoke too soon.
An hour later I got hit and hard - a kip 8 to 9. Before it ramped up I did the room air/O2 trick and after 5 minutes the pain was so intense I needed to resort to Imitrex.
Next time, if this "mild hit - major hit" repeats itself, I'll hit the O2 for that first, less intense CH and have a Red Bull on hand to chug and see if I can get a different result.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 24th, 2015 at 12:26pm
Gary,

The rogue heavy hits may indicate you're still fighting off the remnants of your last cold.  I've sent you a pm with some additional suggestions.

Regarding the latest method of oxygen therapy...  Did you experience any symptoms of paresthesia when you inhaled and held the lungful of 100% oxygen? 

You should have experienced a very slight tingling or prickling sensation to your face, lips and fingertips shortly after you started holding your breath.  If you didn't, practice the following forced exhalation technique and hyperventilation procedure before your next hit. 

Stand with jaw dropped like saying the word "Haw."  This gives the diaphragm full range of movement to ventilate the lungs as completely as possible.

Exhale rapidly and forcefully until it feels like your lungs are empty... they're not.  At that point do an abdominal crunch like doing situps and hold the chest squeeze until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds.  This will squeeze out another half to full liter of exhaled breath that's highest in CO2 concentration.

Then without any delay, inhale rapidly and fully from the diaphragm and repeat the forced exhalation technique.   You should be able to complete 10 inhalation-exhalation cycles in 30 seconds.  When you exhale for the 10th time, hold the squeeze for at least 4 seconds before inhaling the 100% oxygen.

The goal of this method of hyperventilation is to blow off CO2 faster than your body generates it through normal metabolism. This increases blood pH making it more alkaline.  The increased alkalinity enables blood hemoglobin to offload CO2 more completely and upload more oxygen to aid in the CH abort process.

If you've done this properly, you'll experience the symptoms of paresthesia when you inhale and hold the lungful of 100% oxygen.  The slight tingling/prickling sensations should last for 20 seconds then dissipate. Try to relax while holding the lungful of oxygen.  you should feel the CH pain level off and start to drop slightly.

At the end of 30 seconds, exhale forcibly and squeeze till you wheeze then start the entire procedure all over again.

Again, practice makes perfect...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Feb 24th, 2015 at 2:30pm
Hi there,
Just got my first blood results today and the D3 has gone from 33 to 163 in five weeks.
Still get the odd twinge, but not much more than that, giving me to believe that I've a little bit more to do and the body is still adjusting.
But, I could'nt be more pleased with the progress.
In the words of the Monkees (for those of us old enough to remember), ...... "I'm a believer".
Keep well,
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 24th, 2015 at 2:54pm
Hey Peter,

Thanks for the update and good news.  Your CH symptoms should disappear completely as you approach a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 200 nmol/L.

Keeping your 25(OH)D near this target serum concentration also buys you a comfortable safety margin and reserve in the event of colds or flu that would easily burn through at 180 nmol/L.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Feb 24th, 2015 at 3:11pm
Thanks Batch.
Actually, I've had a head cold all week and still the beast behaved.
Not too bad at all.
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 24th, 2015 at 4:04pm
Peter,

Thanks... That is great news...  Based on data from the online survey, the 50:50 tipping point is close to a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 150 nmol/L, (60 ng/mL) so you're ahead of the game so to speak at 163 nmol/L.

Take care and thanks again for another important data point.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 25th, 2015 at 1:13pm
Batch,
Yes I did feel that paresthesia but the CH pain ran up much faster than I could take. This morning I tried a modified version of the O2 inhalation therapy that I've personal messaged you (just now) and that seemed to be a much better abort for me.

Even though I've experienced two CH's today, one hardly a kip 1 and very short lived at around 3:00 AM (no O2 or Imitrex needed for that one) and another around 10:00 AM that I successfully aborted with O2, this has been a much better day than yesterday.

Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 25th, 2015 at 5:16pm
Gary,

Thanks for the update... and glad to hear you had a better day.

I should have added the following caveat to my suggested instructions... 

"If using this method of oxygen therapy hasn't slowed or halted the increase in CH pain after two complete 1-minute sequences, take the closest bailout abortive, i.e., imitrex SC injection or nasal spray...  and then return to the oxygen therapy..."

Before I started the anti-inflammatory regimen there were times when I felt a very nasty fast rising CH coming and I knew the pain wouldn't stop rising until it reached a KIP-9 or KIP-10 no matter what I did.  Imitrex and oxygen had no apparent effect. 

It's kind of like trying to "woe up" a runaway horse with the bit in his teeth...  No amount of tugging on the reins was going to stop the critter until it got tired...

It's the same thing with rogue CH hits...  There's no stopping the beast until it feels like it's made a meal out of the back of your eye and most of your brain on that side...

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When that happens, all you can do is resign yourself to some heavy sledding and hang on...  The only consolation is you know it will end... eventually.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 26th, 2015 at 11:42pm
Batch,
Thanks for that advice and encouragement. Nice sculpture! Is that your rendition of the beast?
I once had a dream it was hunting me. It was an oversized hyena with four inch fangs and its "fur" was porcupine spines, it had claws like a lion's and it was hungry. Just as it eyed me, I escaped through a trap door to a lower level where it couldn't find me. At that moment I was awoken by a CH with a "bang" inside my head. I jumped up, ran downstairs and hit the O2 and got rid of it within minutes. Quite the dream becomes reality experience!

Here's an exciting update, I have now had 36 plus hours pain free, not even any shadows!
So, instead of taking it one day at a time, I'm taking it one hour at a time. Hopefully by tomorrow morning I can make it 48.

I've been taking that 2,000 mg vitamin C every two hours since yesterday as you suggested (maybe that helped?), how long do you recommend I keep that going? 
Gary
P.S. Historically, this many days along in previous cycles, a PF day never happened.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 27th, 2015 at 8:34am
Gary,

Thanks for the update...   I like to hear good news like that.  It appears this regimen is starting to kick in.

The sculpture was done by one of my daughter's classmates at Temple.  As soon as I saw it I said to myself...  "There's the cluster beast" took out my camera and took several photos.

Regarding the vitamin C...  I'd stick with the present schedule until the cold symptoms are completely gone then drop back to 2000 mg/day.  Humans are unable to make vitamin C so a dose like this is very healthy...

If you want to turn the vitamin C into a heart insurance policy... add 2,000 mg/day L-Lysine.  That's essentially Linus Pauling's Therapy that keeps plaque from forming inside the arteries that supply blood to the heart.

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Pauling's therapy had a lot of critics... The funny part about that is Pauling had two more Nobel Prizes than any of his critics...  He also outlived most of them.

Of course if you go this route with vitamin C and L-Lysine...  you'll want to avoid sugar and in particular, high fructose corn syrup.  That crap is in everything...

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The only reason we keep a bag of sugar around here is to feed the hummers that live with us year round.  I even picked up a heated feeder to keep a warm supply of sugar water available during freezing temps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Feb 27th, 2015 at 9:02am
Batch, and Everyone,
So, all in all, I made it 41 hours before getting hit with a less than kip 1 at 5:00 AM which lasted only 10 mins. I didn't even bother to get out of bed.
At 7:45 I got a second hit, which was very slow to build, but after 15 mins. got annoying enough that I resorted to O2 and it was gone 10 mins. later.
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 28th, 2015 at 2:21am
Gary,

Good start... Given the track record for this regimen so far... I'd say the odds are well in your favor you'll continue to improve with longer periods PF...  Hang in there and thanks for the update.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 11:58am
Batch and Everyone,
Today marks 72 hours PF!
No shadows either.
Beginning yesterday, I've tapered down to 10,000 IU D3.
Batch, how do I go about ordering a self test for 25(OH)D3?

Yesterday makes 29 days for this cycle.
During that time I had 10 headache days for a total of 17 CH.
I needed Imitrex only 3 times.
I needed O2 6 times.
This was the most manageable and easy cycle I've ever had in my life since I first got them at 16 years old. Many of the CH's were very mild to the point of my wondering if I was getting hit with a CH. I only had one or two at the kip 8-9 range.

Four years ago during my last cycle at 29 days:
I had 56 CH's most of those I was aborting with O2 and then would be hit an hour later with another. I'd do this over again and agin until I resorted to Imitrex for a more lasting relief.
I went through 14 Imitrex, some days requiring 2 doses.
At day 23 I resorted to a 5 day Prednisone taper which worked but at the end of that continued to get hit for several days.
This was a better cycle than most since I was using O2 for the first time. But the pain was still brutal. Almost every CH during this cycle was at the kip 8-9 range.

Quite a difference...
Hope this is encouraging for others!
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 3:15pm
Gary,

I could tell a similar story, except that I went chronic about 2 years age, so it was every single day without fail.

7 weeks now on the D3 and I'm a different person. Even played my first round of golf yesterday in 2 years and not a twinge.   (Golf was rubbish, of course, but who cares).

Still getting mild shadows, but what a difference.

All thanks to Batch.

Keep well everyone.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 12:34am

Peter510 wrote on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 3:15pm:
7 weeks now on the D3 and I'm a different person. Even played my first round of golf yesterday in 2 years and not a twinge.   (Golf was rubbish, of course, but who cares).


Whilst D3 can help with many things, I think that it isn't up to helping with golf.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 1:58am
Mike,

Tragic, but true!

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 9:37am
Thanks Peter!
I found golf way too frustrating, so I took up skiing... no need to keep score!  ;D
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 9:38am
Hmmm...  I'm told a drop or two of vitamin D3 on your driver or putter might produce a better score...     ::)

Sorry...  I couldn't resist...

Peter, Gary,  Great updates... Now that you've taken control of this disorder the next steps are getting tested for 25(OH)D and tuning the regimen by varying the ratios.  If your 25(OH)D is up around 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L), start by changing the calcium:magnesium ratio.

The vitamin D Council has a home test kit for $50 USD at the following link:

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Grassroots Health offers a similar 25(OH)D3 home test kit for $65 USD at the following link.  I've sent their test kits to CH'ers in Canada and they claim no problem shipping them overseas.

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Take care and please keep us posted...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 12:31pm
Vit D test kit - ordered!
Gary
P.S. Still PF!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 2:43pm
Hi,

I got mine tested less than 2 weeks ago and was 163 nmol/L, so going in the right direction ( from 33nmol/L 2 weeks before that).

Will get it done again in 2 weeks time.

Keep well all.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 4th, 2015 at 10:10am
Good morning Everyone!
I got hit this morning around 9:20. At first I thought it was just a tension headache from sleeping in a twisted position but then I remembered I had been dreaming and as I kept a watch on it, well, it began to build, although very slowly.

So I was able to eliminate it with Oxygen easily enough. The whole thing lasted about 20 minutes.

The last day I had a CH was Friday the 27th.  At this point in my cycle to have 120 hours pain free is pretty amazing. Equally amazing is to have a CH last only 20 minutes! They'll usually last at least 90.

Starting Sunday the 1st, I have dropped the D3 down to 10,000 IU per day.
So, according to a suggestion Batch gave to me, I'll be moving that back up to 40,000 per day for another week.

I'll keep on updating!

Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 4th, 2015 at 12:38pm
Gary,

Five days at 40,000 IU/day vitamin D3 should do the trick.  That works out to a loading dose of 200,000 IU vitamin D3 and that should add a little less than 20 ng/mL to your existing 25(OH)D serum concentration. 

At the end of the five days, drop back to 15,000 IU/day as your maintenance dose and see if that keeps you completely pain free.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 4th, 2015 at 1:14pm
Five days at 40,000, got it!
D3 test kit is on the way.
Thanks Batch!
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 7th, 2015 at 8:03am
Batch,
Update:
Still getting low level hits in the kip 1-2 range for the past four mornings (this morning included) and O2 knocks them out pretty easily (honestly, I've been getting one or two very low level hits that have gone away all by themselves before getting a longer lasting hit that annoys me enough and lingers too long, then I'll get the O2)

I'm on day four of the five day 40,000 IU D3 loading dose you suggested.
I'm going to up that to 50,000 for today and tomorrow and see if that eliminates those low level hits.

I'm still taking all the other co-factors as well including the B-50 and 800 mg magnesium. Still taking vitamin C but now at the 2,000 mg daily you suggested.

Kathy had some minor surgery and was prescribed antibiotics, so to get her back on balance I got a probiotic and have been taking that as well.

Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 7th, 2015 at 9:15am
Gary,

Thanks for the update and good move starting the probiotics.  Having a healthy gut makes everything work better...

Regarding the vitamin D3 dose.  There are a number of studies that indicate the maximum vitamin D3 serum concentration occurs between 4 and 12 hours after an oral dose.  Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, one of the Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy, has also opined that serum vitamin D3 can also travel directly to target body cells where it's metabolized to 25(OH)D in support of genetic expression while the rest of the serum vitamin D3 is being metabolized by the liver to 25(OH)D.

See the following link to an article by Dr. Heaney titled "Quantifying the Vitamin D Economy" at Vitamin D Wiki:

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Connecting the dots, it might be helpful to take the oral vitamin D3 eight (8) hours prior to the time you're experiencing the morning hits.  In other words, take half the vitamin D3 at the regular time and the other half just prior to going to bed.  Doing this should help ensure your serum concentration of vitamin D3 is near its maximum around the time of your morning hits.

Make sure you're taking at least 500 mg/day magnesium along with the rest of the vitamin D3 cofactors.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 7th, 2015 at 10:35am
Hey Batch,

I had a few hits over the last few days of about 5/6 strength. I had been doing really well up to that.

The only thing I can think of is that I bought a new supply of Magnesium. Ingredients on the back of the bottle says Magnesium, no mention of Citrate, Malate or anything else.

Any advice?

Many thanks as always,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 7th, 2015 at 6:50pm
Peter,

There have been a few CH'ers report similar happenings after switching brands of magnesium.  Try looking up that particular brand over the Internet and check the Supplement Facts label.  If all else fails try to find the original brand.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 7th, 2015 at 7:44pm
Batch,

I'll certainly try that and report back on developments.

Thank you, as always,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 7th, 2015 at 9:09pm
Peter,
I just read your post and Batch's reply.
I can't be sure what day it was but I also changed magnesium brands and wonder if that may be a/the reason I'm getting more hits?  I had gone five days in a row PF.  I was running out and the store I was in didn't carry the original brand I was using so I bought another. I did make sure to buy citrate but....? Wish I could remember what day I started the new magnesium but that would fit in close with the time frame...

Batch, I decided to stick with 40,000 IU today but taking 30,000 of that just before bed and see if that will make a difference with the morning hits.

Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Mar 8th, 2015 at 4:03am
Hi all

I have been a 20 year sufferer of Episodic CH.   For the last 4 years I have been in and out of the message board and picked up the D3 regimen.  My period to suffer has always been mis February through to mid June.  I would have a nightmare couple of weeks where it would be a big hit every 1.5 hours and then settle to something liveable with but a right royal pain in the butt for the rest of the time.  Each of the last few years I would tail off the regimen when the pain stopped. Last year I kept going, I tested my serum level in September and in was 325 Nmol/l .  I went to the doctor and got a test and calcium checks and it was 405 nmol/l and the calcium was fine.  She wanted me to stop taking the D3 but understood why I would not.  I took 5000IU per/day through the winter, I tested 4 weeks ago (when the beast usually rears its head) and I was on 250 Nmol/l.  So here we are in the second week of March, no pain for the first time in 20 years, it has let me know it is still there in the background by a couple of low fly bys. But I am fine.  Intend to test again just before Easter, get doc checks at Easter, then see where I am.
I guess the key thing for me here is that I was very very high with my serum level, and with still taking 5K D3 a day it still fell by 150nmol/l over the winter period.  I had no illness at all in that time, so a lesson learnt for next year..........keep a maintenance dose going after the pain goes, think about the future, but check those calcium levels.
Kind regards all PF days to all
Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 8th, 2015 at 4:20am
Gary,

That's very interesting, about you also changing your brand of Magnesium recently. I will get my old brand tomorrow (with citrate) and see how the next week or 10 days go.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Ian,

Thanks for the post. Having graduated to Chronic two years ago, I intended to continue taking the D3 forever more, but even if I were episodic I think I would do the same, just to be sure.

Keep well all,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 8th, 2015 at 10:12am
Thanks Ian and Peter for the good input.
I'm episodic (and hope to not go chronic!). From my recent "burn down" experience, I see the D3 regimen as being very much similar to blood pressure meds (which, thankfully, I do not need), in that it is a life long and daily necessity.

To give more information on the magnesium switch, I went from softgels (150 mg, and I think the brand was Nature Made) to tablets (200 mg, the Vitamin Shop). I don't know if going from softgels to tablets would make a huge difference but no bit of information should be overlooked...and maybe Batch has heard something along those lines that would verify yea or nay...

On the good side of things... no morning headaches of any size or length of time! :)

Cheers!
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 8th, 2015 at 11:59am
I can't believe I only said "good" about not having any headaches this morning.
What I really mean is WONDERFUL, AWESOME, FANTASTIC, OVERJOYED, BEYOND RELIEF, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY AND ANY OTHER DIETY WHO'S LISTENING!!!!!!
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 8th, 2015 at 12:04pm
So you're happy then?   

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 9th, 2015 at 10:18am
Ian,

Thank you for the detailed update and glad to hear the anti-inflammatory regimen kept the CH beast from making its annual episodic appearance... 

Regarding your 25(OH)D response to dose of vitamin D3, there can be a wide variation between individuals...  The following chart illustrates the average response to the vitamin D3 doses indicated. 

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As you can see, a dose of 5000 IU/day of vitamin D3 results in an "average" 25(OH)D response of 60 ng/mL, (150 nmol/L) and 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 results in an average 25(OH)D response of 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L).

That your 25(OH)D response to dose of vitamin D3 was significantly greater points out the need for 25(OH)D lab tests to determine the optimum maintenance dose of vitamin D3 that keeps your 25(OH)D at a serum concentration that also keeps you pain free.

For most CH'ers, the average maintenance dose of vitamin D3 works out to 10,000 IU/day and a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L). 

For CH'ers new to this regimen...  10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is a good starting point as a maintenance dose after you've taken care of your vitamin D3 deficiency. 

However, testing for your 25(OH)D response is still prudent...  See your PCP or neurologist and keep them in the loop if you plan to start this regimen and want to know your present 25(OH)D serum concentration.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Brownie19 on Mar 13th, 2015 at 3:11pm
Hi Batch, I've been on your anti-inflammatory regime for about 3 years now, and I just wanted to register, log in, and personally thank you for all of your research. I was episodic for 15 years, until I starting taking the regime and I've been virtually pain-free since.  I've also made some some minor changes in my diet, and started implementing myofascial trigger point therapy, which also helped tremendously. The combination of all three has completely changed my life.  Anyway, thank you again, sir. You've helped hundreds of people become pain-free, & without the use of drugs.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 13th, 2015 at 3:35pm
Hey Brownie,

Thank you for the wonderful update and kind words...  I love to hear success stories like yours...

Comments like yours explaining your experience with this regimen help the wall flower CH'ers sitting on the side lines take the leap and start this regimen...

Thank you again and take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 14th, 2015 at 6:22am
Hey Batch,

Weekly update and it was a strange one.

If you remember I had changed my brand of Magnesium to one without Citrate, the week before and got a bit of Beast activity.

So on Monday I bought a supply of the previous brand and started them on Monday evening. Other than that, I have not changed a thing with any of the cofactors or dosages.

Anyway, Monday & Tuesday were good, no pain and sleeping well, thank God.

I woke on Wednesday morning feeling well after a decent nigt's sleep. HOWEVER, at about 9:15, while driving to work, I was hit hard (kip 8/9) out of the blue. It came on really fast and I had to pull off the road for about 40 minutes.

Anyway, it eased back somewhat and I continued on, arriving in the office about 30 minutes later.

And it hit again, same strength. This time it lasted about an hour and half, with me hiding behind my desk for that period.

Again it eased back somewhat and I was reasonably OK until about 3:00, when once again, it's back. ( this time I'm in the Baoardroom with about 20 others). So I hold on for about 30 minutes and have to leave, because I would have made a show of myself if I hadn't.

I crawled into the car at 4:30 with heavy shadows, and managed to get home safely, where the shadows stayed with me until about 10:30 p.m.

Slept OK on Wednesday night. Thursday and Friday, not a twinge and so far this morning ( it's 10:15 here in Ireland) everything is good.

SO... Is it conceivable that the change in magnesium and the citrate element was enough of a trigger to cause all that on Wednesday, for one day only?

I would welcome your views.

Gary,

How are you getting on?

As always Batch, thanks a million.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Glassman on Mar 14th, 2015 at 10:04pm
Peter!
I'm glad you gave an update.
I'm so sorry to hear you're having continued problems of such intensity.

As you recall I also changed brands of magnesium citrate and got hit soon after that (at least that's close to the time period). I had one to two morning hits for the next four days (although they were quite mild) and then a blissful five days off from the beast. Then morning hits again and this time I was still on the new magnesium.

So, I'm thinking that in my case, at least, the magnesium had no bearing on the cluster's behavior.  I'm tempting fate today, I'm yet again switching magnesium brands back to the original softgels.

This is day two of the return of the cluster after my five day vacation. I'm still getting morning hits with numerous afternoon/evening shadows now thrown into the mix (they're more like a left side posterior neck muscular tightness with what I call zips and zaps-like a hit coming on and then a second later-gone).

I'm traveling this weekend so I'm leaving the O2 tank behind and packin' the Imitrex.

I certainly hope you get some lasting relief from the beast soon.
Take care and keep on posting!
Gary

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 15th, 2015 at 3:51am
Gary,

Well, last Wednesday seems to have been an exception. I am still getting small hits daily, but nothing I can't handle and I started trying Red Bull yesterday to stamp an oncoming attack down and it worked. Same again about half hour ago.

So it's all relatively good again ( for the moment).

I'm going to Rome for a week, next weekend. It will be interesting to see how I get on and how the Beast behaves on the flight.

Also, I think I'll get my bloods done on Saturday next. The results would be available when I get back from my trip and it will be interesting to see what's happening with the D3 and Calcium levels.

I'll update next week.

In the meantime, mind yourself.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Mar 28th, 2015 at 3:35pm
A useful aside to the regimen?

Thought i would share this.  What is clear to me reading the message board is that we all have different responses to our condition, all have different positive responses to the regimen and also other extra positive health effects.  Just under 2 weeks ago I had an emergency admission to A and E (ER) for a burst appendix.  I had a laporoskpy to remove the offending organ and then went home a day later.  I rested for 4 days  then went back to work (school Principal) the next day.  Ok i didnt feel 100% but I was definetly ok to work.  During the week I got better and better finally doing 2 12 hour days with no ill affects at all.  Ok I can still feel the wounds, I am a little tired, but it is my CH time, but that has not happened this year due to the regimen, but my rapid post operative recovery is surely down to that as well.  I am not sure which part, perhaps the vit A, i am sure Batch will be able to help me understand that.
Once again this just re-enforces to me the huge gratitude I feel to Batch for keeping us informed and allowing me not to just exist, as I did prior to finding the regimen, but to positively thrive.
Thank you

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 28th, 2015 at 8:17pm
Hey Radar,

Thanks for the kind words and excellent observations on the benefits of the anti-inflammatory regimen beyond preventing CH.

There are dozens of studies that have found serum concentrations of 25(OH)D drop by up to 40 percent following trauma and surgery due to inflammation. 

That your serum concentration of this vitamin D3 metabolite was considerably higher than the average individual who doesn't supplement with vitamin D3, gave you a clear health advantage with a rapid recovery following your appendectomy.

In a study by Reid D, Toole BJ, Knox S et al. The relation between acute changes in the systemic inflammatory response and plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations after elective knee arthroplasty. Am J Clin Nutr 2011.

The basic finding...  "Serum concentrations of 25-hydroxy-cholecalciferol (25-hydroxyvitamin D; 25(OH)D) fell by more than 40% within 24 hours of elective joint replacement surgery and were still 20% lower than pre-operative values three months after the operation."

In addition... "Vitamin D binding protein (12%) and free 25(OH)D (40%) concentrations were also depressed by the surgery; the response of the vitamin D metabolites was very similar to that of vitamin A..."

As part of innate immunity, inflammation-activated immune cells take up 25(OH)D and synthesize 1,25(OH)2D, which up-regulates IL-10 production and the synthesis of the anti-microbial peptide cathelicidin, and depresses TNFα production.

A similar response takes place in reaction to allergens like pollen and mold spores... and this is apparently one of the reasons why many CH'ers fail to respond to vitamin D3 therapy with an increased serum concentration of 259OH)D as rapidly as others.

Thanks again for the great post.

Take care and please keep us posted....
-
V/R, Batch
 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Mar 29th, 2015 at 8:44pm
Hello All

So I have been on the regimen for 4 months now and its probably time for an update.
I have taken the D3 and cofactors religiously with the exception of the calcium as I am on verapamil. I laso dropped the magnesium to 200mg/day as it played havoc with my exhaust system.
Since i started taking the D3 i have been completely PF, which is quite wonderful, I am also feeling extremely well. 25(OH)D levels are steady at around 180Nmol/l as tested last week.
The only negative is that whenever i try titrating off the Verap i begin to feel slight shadows after about 3 days, ramp up the verap and they disapear again. I have tried this three times now with the same result.
I guess that this means that the two are working in concert to keep the beast at bay but alone neither is sufficient. To my mind its still a good result.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 30th, 2015 at 12:20am
Hi Wayne - Great news about being pain free plus feeling extremely well. That is wonderful.

Don't worry that you need the combination of some verapamil plus the D3 for this, all that matters is that you've found your recipe for being pain free.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 30th, 2015 at 12:18pm
Hey Wayne,

Thanks for the feedback.  It appears you've got your beast well under control...

I understand the continued need for verapamil...  We've had a number of CH'ers start this regimen who still take verapamil...  We have even more CH'ers who managed to come off verapamil completely... 

They were able to do this by maintaining a 25(OH)D serum concentration between 200 and 250 nmol/L, 80 to 100 ng/mL. 

It's all a matter of 25(OH)D serum concentration, the higher it goes, the greater the CH preventative effect.  Once you get your 25(OH)D above 200 nmol/L, you should be able to come off the verapamil.

Regarding magnesium and tail pipe problems...  splitting the magnesium dose am with food and pm with food helps reduce GI tract disturbances and the incidence of osmotic diarrhea.

Thanks again for the wonderful feedback.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Mar 30th, 2015 at 10:26pm
Batch,

So, I finally got around to getting my blood work done after a nasty throat infection that lasted too long. My test results came back as 103.0 ng/mL.  I am currently taking a daily maintenance dose of 10,000IU D3 and 400mg Magnesium along with co-factors. What should I do to tweak my D3 levels or is 103.0 ng/mL a good number?

Thanks again,
Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 14th, 2015 at 5:16pm
Andy,

Sorry to be so slow in responding.  The first question is howz the head?  If you're pain free, I'd stick with the maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.

This maintenance dose results in an average 25D response close to 80 ng/mL but the variation among users can vary ± 20 ng/mL depending on the body weight and body mass index (BMI). 

Obviously a 200 pound male will show a lower 25D response that a 115 lb female.  Body fat also plays a role as it can absorb 12 times the 25D serum concentration so those of us with a little extra insulation around the middle and a BMI ≥25 will have a lower 25D serum response than folks with a low BMI ≤20.

There are also seasonal variations due to incident sunlight produced vitamin D3 but that's usually around ± 8 ng/mL.  Sub-clinical allergies, flu, bacterial infections, trauma and surgery are the real movers of 25D and they can result in up to a 40% drop in 25D serum concentration.

At this point... you've got a comfortable reserve against problems like that so I wouldn't change a thing.

I would suggest another 25D lab test in a couple months.  If your serum concentration has climbed to 115  to 120 ng/mL, you might want to drop the maintenance dose to 8,000 IU/day vitamin D3 or skip taking the 10,000 IU liquid soft gel capsules one day a week. The other alternative is to take 5,000 IU/day on weekends and 10,000 IU/day Monday through Friday.

Higher 25D serum concentrations like this don't pose any problems they just increase vitamin D3 metabolism.  It's kind of like  squirting a little nitrous in the family care... A little is ok but on constant basis it runs the head pressure and temperature higher than needed... 

There are some RRMS sufferers who push their 25D serum concentration upwards of 145 ng/mL for up to six weeks at a time to get their disorder under control or to keep it under control while on travel or vacation.  They do this all the time without any problems.

The lowest and most conservative estimate of a 25D serum concentration associated with vitamin D3 intoxication is 200 ng/mL, but most of the real experts opine the real lower threshold is closer to 300 ng/mL before serum calcium goes above its normal reference range.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 14th, 2015 at 5:33pm
A lot of CH'ers are experiencing a higher than normal frequency of their CH this time of year and that includes a few of us on the anti-inflammatory regimen who are also experiencing some burn through hits.

There's a high probability this increase in CH activity is due to the spring pollen causing allergic reactions that flood our systems with histamines.  When that happens nearly every form of CH intervention is less effective or not effective at all.

The insidious thing about pollen allergies is they can be sub-clinical with no outward symptoms so you could be having an allergic reaction and never know it.  Pollen can also lay around the house, car and workplace for months. 

All it takes is a little movement to send the pollen airborne and it hits the nasal passages.  When that happens, mast cells in the mucus membranes start dumping histamines into the local area and bloodstream.  When the histamines reach the trigeminal ganglia, they trigger neurogenic inflammation and we're off to the races with another bout of CH.

There are other sources of allergens that are with us year round.  Any damp areas can generate mold spores and the biggest source is dust mites.  They live with us year round in bedding and pillows...  They may not be enough to trigger an allergic response on their own, but throw in a little more spring pollen and you reach a tipping point where there's enough to trigger an allergic response.

Here's my story...  I'm a chronic type and have kept my CH in full remission with the anti-inflammatory regimen (10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, Omega-3 fish oil and all the vitamin D3 cofactors: magnesium, zinc, boron, vitamin A (reinol) and the vitamin K2 complex MK4 and MK7).

I live in the Puget Sound area of NW Washington state. I started falling out of remission in mid March as soon as I returned from a stay with friends down in Key West, FL where I had been CH pain free taking 15,000 IU/day vitamin D3. 

Alder tree pollen was sifting out of the mature trees that surround our house like a dust storm that coated my black pickup turning it gray with a very sticky and heavy dusting that acts like powdered weldwood glue when the rains hit it.  See photo below.

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It took less than 24 hours after I returned home for allergy symptoms to appear and that was when I had the first outbreak of CH.  I realized what was happening so started taking vitamin D3 at 50,000 IU/day as loading doses thinking that would overpower the flood of histamine triggered by the pollen allergy.  A week of loading cut the frequency a little but not completely. I was still getting hit one or two times a night while sleeping

At that point the clue bird made a low pass and the good idea light came on bright... Treat the allergy! 

It took a little reading to identify the best treatment option and I finally settled on benedryl (diphenhydramine), a first-generation antihistamine.  I started taking it as directed at 25 mg four times a day, every 4 to 6 hours...  It took a day for the benedryl to start working, but by the second day I was back in a CH pain free state...

The rationale for benedryl is it passes through the blood brain barrier to block histamine receptors in brain cells. Benedryl doesn't stop the mast cells from releasing histamine and other cytokines, but it does help block the allergic reaction and associated inflammation.

The only downside of benedryl is it acts as a CNS depressant so I've been a bit drowsy and napping frequently...  Second- and third-generation antihistamines can't get past the blood brain barrier so don't pose a problem with drowsiness, but as they can't pass through the blood brain barrier, they would likely be ineffective in this case. 

It's been a month and so far so good.  The Alder pollen drop is over, but it's been replaced by an equally heavy pollen drop from the Bigleaf Maple trees...

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We've several 200 year old Bigleaf Maple trees near the house and they're loaded with blooms that drop a yellow pollen that collects on my pickup like finely ground cornmeal.

I've managed to cut back on the vitamin D3 to 25,000 IU/day and three benedryl tabs/24 hours... and still remain pain free...  Lesson learned!

Hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jun 15th, 2015 at 9:18pm
Hello Folks, time for another update. You may remember that I was trying to titrate off Verap, somewhat unsuccessfully. I upped the D3 for a while and split the magnesium into two doses, one morning and one afternoon to ease the load on the exhaust system.
Since then I have tried reducing the verap again but started shadowing. On an interesting note I cut out the D3 regimen for 2 days two weeks ago and also started shadowing. So it appears that the two are working in tandem to keep my head clear. On a very positive note I have just sailed happily through April, May and nearly June which have traditionally been peak misery time for me. Thanks again for all the effort here Batch, I suspect that this little vitamin regimen has saved me many hours of agony.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jun 16th, 2015 at 4:20am
Wayne,  It seems we are both similar, I too have tried to titrate off the verapamil, only for it to hit me hard when my normal cycles were due.
I've been on the regime for nearly 2 years and presently I've managed to stay relatively pain free for the last 6-8 months, definitely skipping 3 cycles.
I don't know what levels your taking of verapamil, I'm only taking 180mg. I weened off in febuary 2014 only to go into a full cycle in April.
My neurologist recommended I stay on verapamil full time
( haven't seen her in 2 years, just my local G.P)
It seems that with the regime and a low dose of verapamil seems to be the sweet spot for me. BUT,  I'm soon to try weening off them again soon. June for me is cycle time and infact I can feel twinges going on all the time at the minute. A simple red bull is all that's needed and nothing developes from there. I'm going to wait till the end of July, when I know that's when my normal cycle is well over and then try and ween off verapamil.  This time though, I'm going to do it really slowly, last time I weened off over 2-3 weeks ( doctors instructions) this time I'll do it over 6-8 weeks. I can cut the pills in half and quarters etc etc.
Maybe I should leave well being alone ! Im pain free ! But I'ts just the need for me to try and go drug free.
all the best
GO MOOLOO'S
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jun 16th, 2015 at 7:19pm
Hey Colin
We're in the same situation then, I'm also not going to change a thing until after July. My next cycle time is generally around December so that will giveme a few months to see how I go without Verapamil. Im on 480mg/day btw.

Cheers,

Wayne

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jun 17th, 2015 at 3:54am
Hi Wayne,
              O.k, 480 mg, a bit more than me, but, all I can say is from experience, the slower the better in reducing.
I'm probably picking, that you could taper off, say half, then stay on that for a while, wait, then go again.  But as they say, our doctors should be in the loop when going on or off anything,   hey good luck with it Wayne
colin
            

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by theydontunderstand on Jun 17th, 2015 at 1:50pm
I just want to share a little anecdotal success.

I started your D3 regiment only yesterday, today being the second time taking vitamins. Well I just got done taking a catnap. Its kind of hard not to being so sleep deprived because my CH mostly only come during sleep once I got all my triggers figured out. I woke up with the obligatory headache but it was only a kip1. By all rights it should be a kip3-4 at this point in my cycle.

It also changed my wake up call last night, for the past week my worst ones have always woken me up at 4:01 am. Last night it was it happened at 3:16 with a marked reduction in pain and duration. Unfortunately my normal CH when I woke up this morning was a little worse than usual.

It should be too soon to tell and probably is, but my cycles have been fairly consistent over the past decade, so consistent that I have usually been able to predict my peak and end date several weeks in advance.  Any change in them that I have been able to make have always been positive in shortening the cycle.

I did have hopes that I was going to be able to bust this one but no dice. That seems to work much better in my winter cycle. I stopped the last winter one dead in its tracks.

So far I am about 10 days into what would normally be a 6 week cycle without any treatment. At this rate with this new treatment I might actually be able to have a beer next friday.

I am really impressed with all the knowledge gained since I last studied on this 4 or 5 years ago. You guys have come a long ways.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 17th, 2015 at 2:51pm
Hey TDU,

Thanks for the update...  The anti-inflammatory regimen can work that fast for many of the CH'ers who start this regimen.

The following chart illustrates data from the online survey of CH'ers taking this regimen (March 2015 harvest).  As you can see better than 50% respond in the first week after starting this regimen.

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It may not mean too much to you at this point, but the exciting news is it appears that vitamin D3 is also entering target brain cells in the hypothalamus and trigeminal ganglia and not just 25(OH)D, the first metabolite of vitamin D3 that triggers the genetic expression we think is responsible for preventing CH.

It takes the liver roughly 6 days to a week to metabolize each dose of vitamin D3 as indicated by a maximum 25(OH)D serum concentration from a single dose of vitamin D3 that occurs 6 to 7 days after the vitamin D3 dose while vitamin D3 reaches a maximum serum concentration within 2 days of the initial dose as shown in the following chart.

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Accordingly, my thinking at this point given some CH'ers start responding within 12 to 48 hours... is un-metabolized vitamin D3 is entering target brain cells making it also responsible for the reduction in CH symptoms.

As most CH'ers are vitamin D3 deficient, i.e., a 25(OH)D lab test less than 30 ng/mL, (75 nmol/L), and as there are other major consumers of vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D within the body that compete with brain cells, it takes a day or two to fill up some of the other empty vitamin D3 storage areas.  When that happens, as long as the vitamin D3 cofactors are present, most CH'ers start experiencing a reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH.

Take care and please keep us posted on your progress with this regimen.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Jun 18th, 2015 at 5:17pm
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The graph is quite interesting with two peaks that in many ways do not make sense. There is a peak at 15 days and one at 31. I suspect that they are from people saying that D3 worked after two weeks and a month respectively.


Batch wrote on Jun 17th, 2015 at 2:51pm:
Accordingly, my thinking at this point given some CH'ers start responding within 12 to 48 hours... is un-metabolized vitamin D3 is entering target brain cells making it also responsible for the reduction in CH symptoms.

With the hypothesis of it working for some within 12 to 48 hours, "raw" D3 might be the cause, but there might be other things happening, especially most people showing such a rapid response being episodic.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 18th, 2015 at 5:42pm
Hey Mike,

Your observations are spot on as is your suspected reason for the peaks in responses at two weeks and 31 days...  The rest of the distribution tracks with the profile of typical physiological responses to medications and nutrients.

I had another question in the survey that addressed the confounding factor of episodic CH'ers confusing a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen with end of cycle...

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As you can see, roughly 17% of the episodic CH'ers indicated a favorable response within the last 20% of their estimated cycle length... 

Of the 17% that fell into that category, I checked and most of them indicated a 25(OH)D serum concentration at 80 ± 5 ng/mL, well within the typical response range to this regimen...  Accordingly, I suspect the confounding factor is closer to 7% for episodic CH'ers.  You be the judge.

Take care and thanks for the comments.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 3-foot on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:11pm

3-foot wrote on Jun 23rd, 2014 at 9:54pm:

Batch wrote on Jun 13th, 2014 at 9:09pm:
3-Foot,

Thank you for the wonderful news and detailed feedback.  It does sound like you are having a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  Based on your response so far, I think it's safe to say your CH symptoms will continue to diminish until you're completely pain free.

The beer and or wine test will work once you've been pain free for a week or two...  Until then, it's the temporary spikes in the serum concentration of 25(OH)D that follow each dose of vitamin D3 that are preventing your CH... 

When you've reached a therapeutic serum concentration of 25(OH)D around 80 ng/mL, that should be at the end of the 4th week on the accelerated dosing schedule, you should be home free... 

After that, a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus the rest of this regimen year-round will keep you PF...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


It's Monday night and I've been 100% pain free since Wednesday Morning. I am at the beginning of Week 3 on the dosage schedule as of today, so I'm taking 15k today. After 10 weeks of the worst cycle I've experienced in my 20 years of battling, it feels pretty F*&%ing great.

Thank You!


Hello all. I've been pain free since this post a year ago. I admit after it ended I tapered off the the full doses but have been taking smaller amounts.

In a semi related story I was reading that D3 is effective against sunburn. Since I planned a weekend of yard work and I had a set of Vit D and company ready to go I decided to experiment. I took a dose of 15k D3 and the recommended suppliments, K2 etc in the morning with my coffee. By 11 am I was outside and spent 6 hours in the sun without sunblock and no shirt. No burn. The next day I spent another 4 hours in direct sun with no sunblock. I am a little tan now but there is absolutely no sun burn. Normally an hour of full sun is enough to make me uncomfortably red.

Anyone else notice this?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 3:51pm
Hey 3-Foot,

Thanks for the update...  The evidence surrounding the use of vitamin D3 to help prevent sunburn has been sketchy at best. Your experience adds another dimension.

Dr. Reinhold Veith has an interesting perspective on the evolution of lighter skin types as early homo sapiens migrated North from Equatorial East Africa.  Vitamin D3 is so essential for human and most mammal biological functions including reproduction, our skin makes it when exposed to the UVB in sunlight.

Accordingly, as early man migrated North from Equatorial East Africa over hundreds of generations, they lost skin pigmentation to compensate for the lower sun angle with a concomitant maintenance of essential cutaneous vitamin D3.   

If they didn't adapt with lighter skin types as they migrated to the Northern latitudes, they produced much less vitamin D3 and as a result, had poor bone formation and overall size.  Veith opines, women who failed to adapt to the lower sun angle with lighter skin types, died in childbirth due to the restricted size of their pelvic girdle birth canal and as a result, they dropped from the surviving gene pool.

Where all this gets even more interesting deals with seasonal variations in sun angle where humans and nearly all other mammals in the Northern latitudes built up more vitamin D3 reserves in the form of 25(OH)D and stored it in fatty tissue during the summer then coasted through the winter where the low sun angle is insufficient to produce the needed cutaneous vitamin D3.

Not surprisingly, conception takes place at the peak of the late summer 25(OH)D serum concentrations and birth during the following spring as 25(OH)D serum concentrations start rising again...

The following links provide some interesting reading on the relationship between cutaneous vitamin D3 production and skin type.

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The only thing I would note is the recommended 25(OH)D serum concentration of 50 ng/mL, (125 nmol/L) represents levels for normal healthy people...  As CH'ers... we're not normal as our disorder requires a 25(OH)D serum concentration range of 60 to 110 ng/mL in order to maintain a CH pain free status.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by 3-foot on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 7:46pm
Interesting, my ethnicity has been DNA verified and shown below. Definately Northern European.

image.jpg (978 KB | 12 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 12:48am
     I'm gonna blame some poor sap from England that lived 500 years ago for our present predicament. When I look at where the members on this site are from, it's got The British Commonwealth written all over it. 
      Seriously though, the ability of the D3 regimen to suppress a ch is amazing. Had my first drink yesterday... I've been PF for 3 to 4 weeks now, I'm about 7 weeks into my cycle which usually lasts 8 weeks but sometimes longer. Took about 45 minutes for a strong shadow to appear but that's it, nothing more. It seems the regimen doesn't end the cycle but it does wonders for stopping the ch's and keeping ya pain free. I'll try again in 2 weeks, I miss my Wild Turkey.

                                              Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 3:50am
That's excellent news Sean, brilliant
I recon your spot on in your theory, the d3 doesnt stop the cycle, its still there, it only suppresses it !
I'm ( as Ive mentioned) right in my cycle time, I know its being suppressed, I can feel it there.
As far as a touch of alcohol, Geez, I miss a nice cold frothy or a Pinot, but after my first ever cycle, 3 months later I had a wee drop, not knowing I was going into another cycle, and BANG ! at a restaurant, a dozen people, I went out side and lay on the sea front grass, ruined their dinner, So that is near 4 years ago ! even though I'd love a drink, I get flashes of that night and the urge disappears !
We are planning a trip next year, either the blighty or The U.S, and if it ends up the blighty, My dream was a nice, REAL Guiness, straight from the tap ( mothers milk ).
So, I'm not letting that opportunity go, so maybe, after this cycle, I'll give it a go  ;)
great news on your progress though !
cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 4:56pm
07/01/2015 < 4 102  102   32-100 ng/mL

Checking back in. Still on the regime (mostly) D3 religiously but sometime skip the fish oil and the other pills. I am headache free still but I have always been episodic.

Batch thanks again.

Todd

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 5:09pm
Hey Todd,

Thanks for the update...  It's always great to hear reports like yours.

Be sure not to skimp on the magnesium...  It's the most important vitamin D3 cofactor as it supports the enzymatic processes that take vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D and on to the active hormonal form, 1,25(OH)2D3.

Vitamin D3 at the doses we take consumes so much magnesium in the above enzymatic processes that without at least 400 mg/day magnesium, you can easily get into a calcium magnesium imbalance that can cause cramps and heart flutter...

Calcium is needed during muscle contraction and magnesium during muscle relaxation...  I can always tell if I'm getting too little magnesium... I get hand and finger cramps...  They clear rapidly after taking at least 400 mg magnesium.

If you need more, split the dose by taking 400 mg magnesium in the morning and a  second 400 mg dose 12 hours later.  Dosing magnesium like this will help avoid osmotic diarrhea.

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by theydontunderstand on Jul 6th, 2015 at 12:45am
You asked me for an update and I for surely owe you one Batch. This has been nothing short of amazing for me. I was almost moved to tears working my self up to make this reply.

I am still technically in cycle, though on the down slope, maybe two weeks left before its gone. This is working so good for me that I am drinking beer right now.

When I first started your therapy it immediately removed two triggers, eating a big meal and taking naps. I can do both worry free.

The frequency has been so reduced that I am averaging only one a day which is usually nothing more than a nuisance. It happens at morning wake as of today I am attributing it to low magnesium.

I did add a bit to your therapy. I did take benydryl when I had more headaches and right before bed. I am thinking of eliminating as a daily thing tomorrow.

I also added l-cysteine to it as per a the thread on this board. I figured it couldnt hurt and the mechanism of action sure did make sense to me. I am actually not positive how well it works as a daily supplement, I didnt receive it until several days after your therapy had already started working. What I believe it has done though is blocked the mechanism of action that was a trigger for alcohol.

7 days ago I drank a beer and suffered the worst of my cluster headaches since starting your therapy. The headaches came on about 3 hours after that beer and 9 hours after I took the vitamins. I got 3 of them from that one beer.

Yesterday I woke up with my normal cluster headache, well, at least whats normal these days thanks to you Batch, it was just annoying is all.

Later that day I wanted to celebrate Americas birth, with a beer. I had been noticing that the later in the day I took my vitamins the less likely I was to wake up with a headache in the morning. The situation was just like before, I ate my vitamins with lunch and the beer came much later in the day.

So I did a preemptive strike. I took a magnesium, a l-cysteine and a benydryl with my first beer and never got a headache, even after drinking 6 of them. I took the same combination before bed and was pain free upon waking up.

I am doing the same thing tonight, and so far no headache.

My biggest trigger, besides sleeping, is drinking. Right now I am drinking, IN CYCLE, and not getting a headache.


I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart Batch. This is a life changer. Ive lost a couple jobs over cluster headaches.

Thank you.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 8th, 2015 at 2:20pm
Hey TDU,

Thanks for the update.  I wanted to give you a little time before commenting to see if the Benadryl made a difference...  It usually takes 36 to 48 hours while taking two 25 mg Benadryl tablets a day to be effective.

There's nothing wrong taking the  l-cysteine... You also might want to consider adding CoQ10 (for the heart) and a 3-month course of vitamin B 50 (helps the brain).

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by feisty on Aug 4th, 2015 at 7:48pm
Just want to update. My husband has been free of cluster headache pain since August 20, 2014 :) . Thank you Batch!!

He has been dealing with other things since then. Atrial fibrillation (even though his blood D levels were pretty high) started last September but seems to be calming down. No related cardiac issues or known cause. Now he's recovering from Elbow (Olecranon) Bursitis and I'm wondering if it's because he slacked off on supplements recently? Also he is having problems with his foot - swelling and pain.

Seems like it's all about inflammation  :-? . So we're getting back on the bandwagon in earnest. Allergies are an ongoing issue. We got rid of pets which may have helped, but household dust and/or mold may be a problem, as well as the entire outdoors.

Folks, if you haven't yet, give Batch's regimen a chance. It took a while to kick in for my husband, but it worked!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Zeitgeist on Aug 11th, 2015 at 9:39am
Hi all

It's now a little more than 4 years since I begun with D3 etc and here's a little  update.

The first year or so I was very rigorous with regards to amount of D3, Mg, Ca and Boron. In the later years I simply eat a couple of 5000 iu capsules every week or fortnight. Else than that: Begun drinking milk again, and learnt how to sleep on one of the sides.


CH Experiences:
The last four years I've had three cycles, the first 8 months into the very rigorous practice of the regimen when I took regular blood samples etc.

Noteworthy, those cycles were both shorter than in the previous 20 years+ and  attacks significantly less intense.  I fend them off with Red Bull or Imitrex injections (1/3 or about 2mg)

In this period I have some 10-15 single attacks completely out of cycle.  Rather inexplicable, and most often related to sleep disruptions, jet-lag, all-nighters and the like.

In 2010 and 2011, after 20+ years on the left side, I experienced several side shifts, both between cycles and in the midst of cycles. Now the beast  appears to have settled on the right side.

Conclusion:
Even though I still have cycles and attacks, I'm very much assured of the effect of D3. This is because the effect was more or less instant, and because the entire CH experience has changed rather dramatically. From being a major PITA in my life, and threatening my ability to do my job, CH is now more of an annoyance I handle OK. I most certainly don't fear it the way I used to.


Some last words on the regimen:  As I said, I've become rather relaxed as to the rigidness  of the regimen.  One reason is the cycle I experienced while being very specific, I lost some faith there, another reason is that I'm just not that kind of guy :) . I don't recommend relaxing the regimen, I just tell my story.

Stay pain free!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Aug 11th, 2015 at 5:12pm
Hey Zeitgeist,

Thanks for the straight forward update and candid assessment of the anti-inflammatory regimen's capacity to prevent your CH...  Your comments bring up a general topic that I think worth discussing... and that's the commonly used statements about efficacy of CH preventatives... 

"What works for some CH'ers, may not or does not work for other CH'ers."

and

"What worked well last cycle is not working now."

Being an analytical type... I'm always asking "Why?"

After nearly five years taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent my CH, reading hundreds of posts, PMs, email and online survey results from CH'ers taking this regimen as well as reading hundreds of studies on the efficacy of vitamin D3 in treating a wide range of medical disorders, I've come up with a framework I think is worth sharing.

Dose-Response... There's a clear dose-response relationship between the dose of vitamin D3 and a CH pain free response.  I selected 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 as the standard maintenance dose for a number of reasons, the first and foremost is this is the highest vitamin D3 dose the real vitamin D3 experts consider safe. 

Data extracted from posts here at CH.com and the online survey of CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent their CH indicate an average efficacy of 80% by the end of the first month of treatment.  Some CH'ers need more vitamin D3 and a few have been relatively pain free taking 5,000 IU/day.

Time-Course 25(OH)D response...  There's also a time-course 25(OH)D response relationship with a CH pain free response as serum concentrations of 25(OH)D build towards what I call the "Green Zone" of 60 to 110 ng/mL.  In other words, some CH'ers require up to a month to respond to this regimen although the majority respond within the first two weeks.

These first two factors account for a little over 80% efficacy for the anti-inflammatory regimen in preventing CH...  The other 20% who don't respond is were I've devoted the majority of my time.

There are several factors that prevent CH'ers in this category from experiencing a favorable response.

Infections, allergies and trauma/surgery are the three most prevalent reasons why some CH'ers do not respond to this regimen even with a 25(OH)D serum concentration in the green zone at or above a concentration of 80 ng/mL. 

These three factors have three things in common.  They trigger inflammation, they increase immune system activity and in doing so, place a demand on serum vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D concentrations lowering them by as much as 40%.  The net effect is a reduced capacity of the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent CH.

We've had a statistically significant number of CH'ers post comments to the effect their CH returned or increased in frequency during viral and bacterial infections...  In most cases, increasing the vitamin D3 intake from the 10,000 IU/day maintenance dose up to 20,000 or 50,000 IU/day for a week usually resulted in a pain free response.

This Spring I discovered that taking Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) worked effectively in lowering the histamine inflammatory response due to an allergic reaction to tree pollen and that this made the anti-inflammatory regimen effective enough to stay CH pain free.  Several CH'ers have reported a similar response after starting Benadryl.

I cracked a large filling on an upper molar a couple weeks ago.  The molar was otherwise healthy with no evidence of periodontal disease six months ago during an annual dental checkup.

This molar had been a candidate for extraction and implant following a bone graft for the last four years due to looseness caused by a filling that allowed food to wedge between it and the adjacent tooth forcing it aft when chewing.  A proper restoration eliminated the gap and the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin K2 stopped the looseness.  My dentist was amaze when he checked molar for mobility and found it sound.

Last week the tooth started to become tender while chewing so I went in to have it checked.  The X-ray indicated an infection had set as the crack had extended through the silver amalgam filling and into the lower crown splitting one root so they put me on oral penicillin and scheduled the needed procedure for later this week.

Two weeks ago when the molar cracked I'd been on a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, down from an average of 20,000 IU/day during the heavy pollen earlier this summer.  Within a few days of the molar cracking and the tenderness setting in, I noticed the lymph nodes in my neck were shot up and swollen...  About that time, the beast started prowling around so I upped the vitamin D3 back up to 15,000 IU/day.  This increase in CH activity was clearly due to the tooth infection...

Moreover, within 24 hours of starting the penicillin, the tenderness while chewing subsided and so did the swollen lymph nodes in my neck.  Two days after starting the penicillin, I was back at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and the beast has been conspicuously absent.

Edited to add... I'm also taking a probiotic to counteract the loss of friendly colonies of GI tract bacteria caused by the penicillin.

Bottom line and contrary to popular belief, a tooth problem can lead to an increase in the frequency and severity of CH... particularly if its infected...  See your dentist for regular checkups.

Getting back to the framework...  It really doesn't matter what CH'ers take as a preventative... If there's any other comorbid medical condition that results in inflammation, (and that's nearly all of them...) the preventative will be less effective... if it's effective at all.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Sep 2nd, 2015 at 3:13am
It's the 1st day of Spring here down under, and no sign of the Beast, which I put it all down to the Vitamin D3 remedy, thanks to Batch, for giving me my life back.

Forever in your debt.
Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Sep 3rd, 2015 at 2:05am
Ditto Dr Hoppy !

But I'm going to purchase some of that Benadryl as Batch has recommended to be on hand just in case.
Starting to think about the problems I've sort of always had in that department, sinus type issues, So I'm going to add that to my collection of concoctions and see what happens.
glad to here your still pain free

colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Sep 25th, 2015 at 1:56pm
Hi Emma, hope you had a good day.
So what supplements have you got?
T

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Sep 27th, 2015 at 2:53am
Hi Emma,
when i foud this site i felt like i had arrived home. For the first time i was chatting to people that knew what i felt, knew of the pain and cared and wanted to help. To this day I am grateful for the messages of hope and understanding that I received. Also I was lucky to stumble upon Batch and the D3 regimen he has come up with.
If you were to find out more about the D3 regimen and start asking all the questions probably going around your head about it, you could be pain free (PF) fairly soon. The D3 regimen is working for me, i take it just as suggested by Batch.
I used to get 1 cycle in spring that could last 3 months and 1 cycle in end autumn/start winter for also about 3 months. During these cycles I used to get hit every night religiously about 45 minutes after I'd fall asleep. I used to have to put my life on hold, the CH was affecting all aspects of my life, and those around me.
There is a strong possibility that the D3 regimen can work for you too. It is efficient for more than 80% of people who take it.
The O2 is great for aborting attacks when you're at home or where ever you have your tanks with you.
If your neuro is making it difficult to give you O2, you could mention that you know people with CH that successfully use it and that the neuro in UHG is giving it to his CH patients. It is poven in research that O2 works  and is widely used to relieve CH.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Emma marie h on Sep 27th, 2015 at 7:54pm
Hi Thierry :)
Hope you had a good day :)
Thank you again for talking me through this.Everyone has been so amazing. I honestly cant describe how it feels to be able to talk honestly about whats happening to me with someone who not only understands exactly how it feels but wont judge me or make me feel like i am over reacting :) I love this website,thank god for the person who created it :)
At my appointment in the morning I will mention that I now know you and peter and ye are both being prescribed 02 :).I have kept a detailed diary of my headaches since February( I am now up to 3 a night >:( like you it starts around an hour after I fall asleep and with an energetic  toddler who is rearing to go first thing every morning its becoming impossible to function :( )  so hopefully that will help. I will also push for the Vit D test.Did you have one before beginning the regimen?I have all the supplements from the list except the vitamin K,I will buy it next week.I was only able to find 2500iu vit D.I plan to buy them all online next month,hopefully save some money.The health shops are ridiculously expensive. Also what times during the day do you suggest taking each of the supplements?
Thank you so much again Thierry :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 27th, 2015 at 11:26pm
Wonderful that things are going well for you Emma.

We all know what it is like to be part of a community that gets what it is like to have CH and that we don't have to explain a thing, unlike when talking to those who don't have CH.

For your appointment, write a list of all your questions and tick them off as you ask them. It is so easy to forget something and then remember when the appointment is over.

Most people take the D3 with their main meal as the vitamin is fat soluble, so it will be absorbed best then.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Sep 28th, 2015 at 12:14pm
Hi Emma,

Hope you got on well today with your doc  :)


Like all my supplements, i get the K from iherb.com
below is a link to it

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This vit K is the one Batch recommends. 1/day.

If you are buying on iherb.com  , you can choose a postage option called "Airmail" that allows you a maximum of 4lbs weight and max €71, this is the best option as it doesn't get checked by Irish custom for import duties (so far for me anyway  :)). Postage options will appear during the checkout process.

Below are a few of the supplements you could get from iherb.com

Below is a multi vitamin that takes care of a few supplements that are included in Batch's D3 regimen

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It contains the Vit  A, the zinc and the Boron as well a lots of B vitamins and folic acid which are also recommended when starting up on the regimen.
1 tablet daily

Then other supplements to complete the regimen:


MAGNESIUM:

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2 tablets/day, = 400mg

CALCIUM:

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2 capsules/day, = 400mg

There is calcium and magnesium in the multi but in small amounts so in my opinion it is OK to take 400mg of each as part of the regimen.

VIT D3

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At 10000iu per softgel, just 1/day will probabaly do when not in "loading" mode.

FISH OIL:

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This is the one Batch recommends and takes himself. 2/day

This is it for the regimen but if you get shadows and/or attacks in spring when the sun starts warming up the isle and pollens flow around us, talk to Batch, he's got an idea of why that happens and ways to help.

I think Batch also recommended a good microbiotic to sort out our intestinal flora and PH levels. Here in Ireland we have a very good one in health food stores called "super8" by UDO'S CHOICE, thing is it's quite expensive. I have been taking this since the start of 2015 (2 months on, 1 month off) and have noticed that the shadows i still occasionaly get in spring for a couple of weeks did not really appear this year.

I have found the ordering process easy at iherb.com and the postage costs, very reasonable.
Also their prices are so so much cheaper than in our local health food shops.
The parcel usually arrives 10 days to 2 weeks after ordering when choosing the postage option mentioned above.
I once chose a different option for postage and i got caught for import taxes from our customs dept.
Any questions, just ask.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Emma marie h on Sep 28th, 2015 at 2:51pm
Hi Thierry,
Thank you for the links and the tip on postage. Peter recommended that website to me also. I am so happy that the supplements can be bought at a more reasonable price :)
My appointment was horrible.I am so miserable since I left the hospital,feeling a bit defeated and sorry for myself.
I will write a post on the help getting 02 page.
Thanks again Thierry :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Emma marie h on Sep 28th, 2015 at 6:01pm
Hi Thierry,
Quick question about the Vit D regimen.
Its about the natures way alive multi vitamin.Should I be taking the vit b50 along with that or does it have the b vits I need in it already?
Thanks :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 28th, 2015 at 6:35pm
Emma Marie,

The rationale for the 3-month course of vitamin B 50 is to address any possible deficiencies among the seven B vitamins...  This usually requires a loading dose hence the vitamin B 50 which provides more than needed in a maintenance dose.

The multi vitamin likely contains what we call a maintenance dose, i.e., just enough to keep the seven B vitamins at the desired level.

Sorry you had such a rough time at your medical appointment...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Sep 29th, 2015 at 11:37am
Hi Emma, like Batch said, the multi vitamin would just cover a daily top up of B vitamins.
It may be that you will have to not take the multivitamin and instead, for now, take the vit A, zinc and boron seperately. Then when you will have done the 3 months of B50, you could take the multi vitamin and stop taking the Vit A, zinc and boron seperately.
I am not sure if it would be ok to take the multi vitamin as well as the B50 for the first 3 months, maybe Batch can throw some light on this.

Here's a vit A on iherb

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each tablet is 5000iu, so take half

ZINC

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1 a day.

BORON

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1 a day.

Here is a B50 on iherb

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1 a day.

anything else, just ask.  :)

All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 29th, 2015 at 3:04pm
Batch, et al:

After being pain-free since early March (episodic), I got hit with a few night and mornings hits yesterday out of nowhere with zero warning.  Hoping they're just some rogue hits and not another cycle.

Here's my current regimen:

D3 15,000 IU - Nature's Bounty

Fish Oil 2400 mg - Kirkland

MgCO3 500 mg  - NOW Foods (was using Kirkland but it seems to be discontinued)

Vitamin C 1000 mg - Kirkland

Mature Multi Vitamin - Kirkland

Zinc 15 mg - Nature Made Vitamelts

Super K with Advanced K2 Complex - Life Extension


Back on Sept 12, I started taking a loading dose of 200,000 IU D3 (50,000 IU on Days 1-2 & 25,000 IU on Days 3-6) because I felt some shadows.

Also took B-50 Complex for 90 days from 2/3 through 5/2. 


I've schedule an appointment to get a 25(OH)D test next week but in the meantime, any tips?

Should I start B-50 again?

Do I take another 200,000 IU loading does even though it's been less than 2 weeks since my last one?




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Sep 30th, 2015 at 4:58am
Hi Slacker,

Try taking 50mg of Benadryl at night for a few nights. You may have some small sub-clinical infection that you are unaware of.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 30th, 2015 at 7:02am

Peter510 wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 4:58am:
Hi Slacker,

Try taking 50mg of Benadryl at night for a few nights. You may have some small sub-clinical infection that you are unaware of.

Peter.


Hey Peter,

What would Benadryl do for the infection?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MDR on Sep 30th, 2015 at 7:31am
you could have Allergies that will give you problems with ch.

Mark 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 30th, 2015 at 10:21am
Maybe I'll give Benadryl a shot.  Can I use it with melatonin?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Sep 30th, 2015 at 11:56am
Slacker,
Benadryl is an antihystamin and can be used with Melatonin. The reason I use it at night is because it can make you a bit drowsey, which is no harm if you're looking for a good night's sleep anyway.


Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 30th, 2015 at 1:22pm

Peter510 wrote on Sep 30th, 2015 at 11:56am:
Slacker,
Benadryl is an antihystamin and can be used with Melatonin. The reason I use it at night is because it can make you a bit drowsey, which is no harm if you're looking for a good night's sleep anyway.


Peter.


Getting to sleep isn't the problem for me though.  It's the hits that wake me up.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Sep 30th, 2015 at 1:35pm
Slacker,

Hopefully it will help to keep the hits away and if you take it in the morning you may feel drowsey during the day, so working or driving could be dangerous.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Sep 30th, 2015 at 1:41pm
Hey Slacker, been reading your posts above. It seems that you are doing everything right as regards the regimen, the loading doses you're doing should have done the trick i think.
There is one thing that i read here somewhere that has shown to improve my twice early shadows, i read somewhere here that a good probiotic helps the gut be more receptive to the D3 regimen and regulate digestion. So i've been taking a high potency probiotic since the start of the year and the shadows i usually get in spring and autumn have not showed up this year. Maybe that can help you too. I am no expert, just reporting my personal experience even though I am not making a definite conclusion that the probiotic is the reason for the lowering in quantity and severity of usually occuring shadows.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 30th, 2015 at 2:03pm
Slacker,

Sorry the CH beast made a house call after a pleasant absence... I'm with Peter and Thierry... Starting a good probiotic and Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) is a good course of action at this point.  I take the Kirkland brand "Allergy Medicine" from Costco if I suspect an allergy is booting me out of remission while on a maintenance dose of vitamin D3.

I had to take Benadryl this last March when alder and maple pollen were blowing around like a dust storm and the beast jumped ugly on me at a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 that normally kept me CH pain free.

The rationale for a CH'er taking Benadryl with the anti-inflammatory regimen is interesting to downright fascinating...  Here are a few factoids and a theory to make my point.

1) The CH syndrome involves neurogenic inflammation and pain... (nothing new there)...

2) The neurogenic inflammation and pain associated with CH are the result of substance P and calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) being released by neurons in the hypothalamus and trigeminal ganglia...  Several studies have found serum CGRP levels elevated during the pain phase of cluster and migraine headaches...

3) The leading theory on the mechanism of action by which the anti-inflammatory regimen prevents CH is associated with genetic expression. 

This is where vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D3 enter the nuclei of target neurons located in the hypothalamus and trigeminal ganglia where enzymes hydroxylate (metabolize) them to the active vitamin D3 metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3.  1,25(OH)D in turn merges with retinoic acid (vitamin A) to form a new molecule that attaches to a vitamin D3 response element (VDRE) on target genes within these neurons.  This results in genetic expression that down regulates/suppresses the production of substance P and CGRP within these neurons as illustrated in the following graphic.

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4) Allergic reactions (caused by a wide variety of allergens) trigger an immune response that results in the release of histamines.

5) The term ‘neurogenic inflammation’ has been adopted to describe the local release of inflammatory mediators, such as substance P and CGRP from neurons.

Once released, these neuropeptides induce the release of histamine from adjacent mast cells.  In turn, histamine evokes the release of substance P and calcitonin gene-related peptide; thus, a bidirectional link between histamine and neuropeptides in neurogenic inflammation is established. 

For CH’ers, this bidirectional link between histamine and neuropeptides in neurogenic inflammation represents a self-sustaining circular chain reaction and vicious cycle resulting in horrible and in many cases, unstoppable CH pain.

6) If histamines are released as a result of an allergic reaction, it triggers the circular chain reaction with a vicious cycle of CH...

7) If we treat the allergic reaction with Benadryl (Diphenhydramine), a first-generation anti-histamine that passes through the blood brain barrier to block histamine H1 receptors on neurons within the hypothalamus and trigeminal ganglia, we break the circular chain reaction and vicious cycle...

Sooo... after all that... taking a 25 mg tablet of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) twice a day (AM and PM) can stop the allergic reactions and in the process, help the anti-inflammatory regimen prevent CH... 

Benadryl is also a CNS depressant and you will get drowsy... Don't drive if you need to take it.  If you do need to drive, Peter's suggestion to take 50 mg of Benadryl after you've driven home for the day is a good idea...

Hope this helps...  It's a lot to digest... However, if you buy into this line of thinking, it answers a lot of questions why cluster headache occur like they do...

Take care and please keep us posted,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 1st, 2015 at 4:25pm
Batch, thierry, Peter, MDR -

Thanks for the info.  I'll give Benadryl a shot. 

If I want to take 50 mg at night since I have to work and drive during the day, what time do you guys suggest I take the Benadryl? 

Right after dinner which is when I take the rest of the regimen?

I also take 15 mg of melatonin before bed (10 mg controlled release at 10:30 PM, 5 mg regular at 11:30 PM).


As far as probiotics go, I have a smoothie for lunch everyday with this meal replacement powder:

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and it contains these probiotics:

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Good enough or do you think I should opt for a dedicated probiotic supplement?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 1st, 2015 at 4:46pm
Slacker,
I take mine no later than 10:00 p.m.

The brand of probiotic I take is Yakult. Can't help you beyond that, sorry.

Keep well,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Oct 1st, 2015 at 6:58pm

slacker032 wrote on Oct 1st, 2015 at 4:25pm:
I'll give Benadryl a shot. 

If I want to take 50 mg at night since I have to work and drive during the day, what time do you guys suggest I take the Benadryl? 

Right after dinner which is when I take the rest of the regimen?



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Quote:
Pharmacokinetics: Following oral administration diphenhydramine is well absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, is widely distributed throughout the body, and is able to pass though the blood-brain barrier. The oral availability is 61%, and 78% is bound in plasma. Peak plasma concentrations are reached in 2-3 hours. Diphenhydramine is metabolized to nordiphenhydramine (active metabolite), dinordiphenhydramine, and diphenylmethoxyacetic acid. The plasma half-life is 8.5±3.2 hours; shorter and longer half-lives have been reported for children and elderly subjects, respectively. Urinary excretion of unchanged diphenhydramine is 1.9%.

Interpretation of Blood Concentrations: Following a single oral dose of 50 mg, average peak plasma concentrations of 83 ng/mL diphenhydramine were detected at 3 hours, declining to 9 ng/mL by 24 hours. A single oral 100 mg dose resulted in average peak plasma concentrations of 112 ng/mL at 2 hours post dose. Effective antihistamine concentrations are greater than 25 ng/mL, drowsiness can be observed at 30-40 ng/mL, and mental impairment may be observed with concentrations above 60 ng/mL.



Now translating this into English...

The drug will reach it's maximum availability in your bloodstream after about 3 hours, with it dropping by half after about 8 hours and to a quarter by 16 hours.

So you need to take it at least 3 hours before you need it to be effective, which will give it time to be absorbed and to get into your bloodstream.

Assuming a 100mg dose, this will give a concentration of 112 (ignore the units for now), which will drop to about 55 after 8 hours and 28 after 16 hours. Since a concentration of 30-40 can cause drowsiness, this could impact you between about 10 and 16 hours after you take it.

However it also says:

Quote:
Duration of Effects: Dose-dependent, however, following oral administration of therapeutic doses, peak plasma concentrations are reached in 2-3 hours and effects usually last 4-6 hours.


Based on all of this, taking it with dinner is likely to be a reasonable time to balance out it being effective and limiting drowsiness. So I'd use that as a starting point and then adjust based on what works best for you to maximize the effectiveness whilst limiting drowsiness.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 1st, 2015 at 7:54pm
Great stuff, Mike. Thank you.

And thanks, Peter.  I'll give Yakult a look.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 4th, 2015 at 12:04pm
A little update:

So I started 50 mg of Benadryl on 10/1 along with the melatonin I've been taking.  Took both tablets of Benadryl at 9PM, 10 mg of controlled release melatonin at 10PM and 5 mg of regular melatonin at 11PM.  Also boosted D3 to 20,000 IU.  Got hit with a KIP 5 at 6:12 AM.

On 10/2, I decided to split the Benadryl doses.  Took 25 mg at 9PM and the other 25 mg at 10PM.  Also took 10 mg of controlled release melatonin at 11PM and 5 mg of regular melatonin at 12AM.  KIP 6 at 1:18AM and another KIP 6 at 5:26AM.

On 10/3, I went back to taking all 50 mg of Benadryl at 10PM along with 10 mg of controlled release melatonin at 11PM and 5 mg of regular melatonin at 12AM.  KIP 5 at 1:42AM, KIP 6 at 4:24AM and KIP 7 at 7:57 AM this morning.

Also added a probiotic supplement that I take with dinner. 

So I seem to be ramping up.  Not sure if I should stop taking the Benadryl or keep at it. 

Getting a little desperate here and considering another 200,000 IU loading dose but wondering if that's a good idea since I already took a loading dose 3 weeks ago.  I still have a 25(OH)D test scheduled for this Friday.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 4th, 2015 at 4:20pm
Slacker,

Sorry you're having a rough time.  Are you taking all of the vitamin D3 cofactors including:  400 mg/day magnesium, a good mature multi with at least 12 mg/day zinc, a trace of boron, and vitamin A (retinol)? 

Have you gone to your PCP for the 25(OH)D lab test? If so, what was your serum concentration of 25(OH)D.  Without knowing your 25(OH)D serum concentration, we're shooting in the dark at what to do next.

If your 25(OH)D is not up around 80 ng/mL, a higher vitamin D3 daily intake may help.

If your 25(OH)D serum concentration is ≥ 80 ng/mL, there's likely another reason or reasons while you're still getting hit... 

When was your last annual physical exam?  What other health problems are you dealing with and if you're treating them, what other medications are you taking?

A low arterial pH (too much acid) can override vitamin D3's capacity to prevent CH...  We're not talking much of a downward shift in pH.  The simple way to test if a low pH is your problem is to drink a baking soda tonic for a couple days.

A half teaspoon of Arm & Hammer Baking Soda in a half glass of water 4 times a day, an hour after eating and right before bed.  If your CH symptoms subside, a longer term fix is to eat an alkaline diet.

See:

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and my favorite...

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 4th, 2015 at 5:03pm
Batch:

Forgot to mention that I have been drinking a baking soda tonic 3 times/day.  I'll add one more. 

I am not taking any other medications, nor do I have any other ailments.  My last physical was 3 months ago.

I've got a 25(OH)D test scheduled for Friday. 


This is my current regimen:

D3 20,000 IU - Nature's Bounty

Fish Oil 2400 mg - Kirkland

MgCO3 500 mg  - NOW Foods (was using Kirkland but it seems to be discontinued)

Vitamin C 1000 mg - Kirkland (4 times/day)

Mature Multi Vitamin - Kirkland

Zinc 15 mg - Nature Made Vitamelts

Super K with Advanced K2 Complex - Life Extension

Baking soda tonic - 3 times/day

Benadryl 50 mg


Back on Sept 12, I started taking a loading dose of 200,000 IU D3 (50,000 IU for 2 days & 25,000 IU for 4 days) because I felt some shadows.

Also took B-50 Complex for 90 days from 2/3 through 5/2. 


After that loading dose on 9/12, the shadows were gone.  But then I got hit out of the blue with a KIP 6 on 9/28 and it's been downhill from there.

Not sure I've ever experienced something like this.  It usually ramps up.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Oct 5th, 2015 at 1:16am
Hi Slacker,                                                                                                                                                     Hang in there with that D3 regimen, It took me 3 weeks this last May to get any response from the anti-inflammatory regimen and even then had my ups and downs. Oxygen
and imitrex were life savers this summer but now the only thing I'm taking is the vitamin regimen.   Even when it seemed like it wasn't working, my ch's were actually much milder.

                            Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 5th, 2015 at 1:36am
Slacker,

Good on you for not slacking off... You're taking everything I've taken so it's likely just a matter of time before you build up a therapeutic level of 25(OH)D.

Do you still have oxygen handy?  My original intent is developing the anti-inflammatory regimen was to improve (shorten) my abort times with oxygen therapy... 

It worked...  I haven't needed oxygen therapy since October 2010... except during burn-down tests of my 25(OH)D where I stop taking vitamin D3 until I get hit... I do this a couple times a year... The average is around a week before the beast jumps ugly...  one or two days when the pollen count is high...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Oct 5th, 2015 at 4:05am
Hi Batch,  Hope you and your family are well !
Well, Spring has sprung and down under the pollen is everywhere, especially round my house !  big time !
So, started to feel a few shadows come a calling, so it was a great time to test out the benedryl. chemists I went to all keep it behind the counter and all but want to know your medical history before they sell it to you. Had a fairly heated argument with a 21 year old newby chemist, who seemed to be an expert on all medical conditions, I recon your getting the picture, my last visit there, they wouldn't fill my imigran prescription without a letter from my doctor ! luckily I rang her there and then and I think the conversation went some way like,  " I diagnose, I write the prescription, you dispense it, He's been getting the same prescription for 2 years now its on your records !!!
I had a wee chuckle while the girl was getting a blast from my doctor on my phone   LOL
Anyway, could only get the liquid variety with diphenhydramine, which said a maximum of 40 ml per day, first day took 10 ml 4 times during the day, It didn't really make a difference, So the next 2 days I just took 30 ml at night before bed and I must say, had my 2 best nights sleep in a long while.
Starting to think that I have always suffered from sinus/ hay fever type inflammation, some nights I would have to get up because my passages were so blocked, it would wake me up from a dead sleep.  Well it sure did open the passageways that's for sure.  I'll keep dosing up at nights while everything Is in flower and see how I go.  I've been off verapamil now for some months, so I'm stand alone on the regime and the only hint of a cluster comes when I'm up all hours watching sport, sleep interruption or deprivation is an immediate trigger for me.
  ( still cant bring myself to try a beer yet)
Anyway, I'll let you know how I go thru spring, but so far, a big thumbs up   ;)

cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 5th, 2015 at 6:32am
Hey Colin,

You're right...stay off the beer. I had one small beer last October while in Rome and was up all night dancing with the Beast. I had been doing really well up to that. Not worth the risk.

I get my Diphenhydramine on EBay. You should try there. The brand I get is SANDOZ. I get 2 x 100 capsules x 50mg capsules.  Last for ages. It was the only place I could get it as you just can't buy it in Ireland.

Keep well,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 5th, 2015 at 10:18am
Colin,

Thanks for the update and glad to hear you've had a couple PF night's sleep.  It's amazing how much better you feel when that happens.

Have you tried ordering Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) over the Internet as Peter suggested?

Regarding beer...  Alcohol in any form has never been a trigger for me...  That said, once you've taken enough vitamin D3 to elevate your 25(OH)D up around 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L) and you've been PF for a month or two...  A beer test is in order... if for no other reason than to build confidence that you're in control and not the beast...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 5th, 2015 at 11:54am
Hey Batch,

Not sure about the beer. Going on holiday on 19th. I'll let you know if I give it a try.

Hope you're well.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 5th, 2015 at 5:03pm
Batch -

Yup, I still use oxygen.  Luckily, these hits have been pretty easy to abort with O2 besides a KIP 9 this morning that I just couldn't shake.  Think I caught it too late.


Sean -

Oh, I'm definitely continuing this regimen since I've had great success with it in the past.  Just need to wait for those 25(OH)D results to see if I need another loading dose.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Adelira on Oct 5th, 2015 at 7:26pm
Is chelated magnesium appropriate to use and how long until this should begin preventing ch? Is there an amount of time that is typical?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Oct 5th, 2015 at 10:37pm
Hi Peter And Batch,   thanks for the advice I'll check it out on the internet for the pill version.  Took another 30 ml last nite and same result, great nights sleep, no morning shadow.  I'm experiencing a good relative pain free time at the minute, I'm due to get another blood test soon, but I'm expecting to be the same, between 200-220 nmol.
I sit here at the moment, 35 deg celcius out side, 40 mph winds and my nose is running, eyes are itchy as hell, I'm figuring its the pollen in the air. I'll continue for a week or so with my Benadryl as it seems to be working well.
I'm pretty happy with things at the minute, I've had a great run over the last 4-5 months, with nothing more than a few shadows when I don't get my sleep right !
I can live with things as they are, with no issues   :)
As far as the beer goes Batch, I'm with Peter on this one !!!
I understand why you do the occasional burn down of the regime,  but for me, the pure fear of a reaction stops me from trying, the more things improve and the longer I go pain free,  seems to make me more inclined to leave the stuff alone   ;D
Thanks for the advice about the Benadryl online, I'll go have a wee look now....
cheers guys
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 5th, 2015 at 11:46pm
Adelira,

Chelated magnesium will work just fine.  Regarding response times to this regimen... they basically depend on the starting serum concentration of 25(OH)D.  Have you seen your PCP for this lab test?

The following chart is based on data from the online survey of 156 CH'ers taking this regimen to prevent their CH.  As you can see, the majority of CH'ers start responding in the first 10 days...

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 5th, 2015 at 11:59pm
Batch -

Quick question about the O2 technique you taught me awhile back via email:

You instructed me to do 10 cycles of inhale/exhale of room air for 30 seconds then a big inhale of pure O2 which I should hold for 30 seconds.

Firstly, is this still the best method?

Secondly, when you said to repeat until the pain is gone, did you mean the whole sequence (including the room air part) or just the holding pure O2 for 30 seconds part? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 6th, 2015 at 4:45am
Colin,
Here is a pic of the brand I get:


image.jpg (978 KB | 12 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 6th, 2015 at 2:12pm
Slacker,

This is still the fastest and most efficient method of oxygen therapy as an abortive for CH.

You need to complete the entire sequence with 30 seconds of hyperventilation with room air (10 complete respiratory cycles) at forced vital capacity tidal volumes followed by inhaling a lungful of 100% oxygen and holding it for 30 seconds.  Keep repeating this entire 1-minute sequence until the pain is completely gone.

The respiratory physiology that makes this method of aborting CH so effective is based on lowering the arterial partial pressure of CO2 (PACO2) and elevating the arterial partial pressure of oxygen (PAO2). 

Intentionally hyperventilating at forced vital capacity tidal volumes casts off CO2 faster than your body generates it through normal metabolism.  As CO2 becomes carbonic acid when dissolved in blood serum, removing CO2 makes the blood less acid and more alkaline.  Accordingly, lowering the PACO2 elevates arterial pH making it more alkaline hence the term respiratory alkalosis.

As soon as the PACO2 levels drop below normal and arterial pH rises above normal, chemical sensors in the large arteries and brain stem, signal the body's homeostatic mechanisms that control arterial pH, to slow the flow of blood to the lungs in order to build PACO2 back up to normal levels...

These control mechanisms do this by trying to slow the respiration rate, (but you're intentionally hyperventilating so that doesn't happen).  They also signal the heart to beat more slowly and most importantly, they signal the arteries throughout the body and brain to constrict...  We want this to happen as this is part of the CH abort mechanism.

The other part of the mechanism of action involves blood hemoglobin.  As arterial pH rises, hemoglobin's affinity for oxygen increases so it carries more oxygen from the lungs than normal.  The elevated pH also lowers hemoglobin's affinity for CO2.  Accordingly an elevated arterial pH triggers hemoglobin to dump more CO2 and upload more O2 as it passes through the lungs.

All this happens while hyperventilating with room air at forced vital capacity tidal volumes...

When you inhale the lungful of 100% oxygen and hold it for 30 seconds, blood hemoglobin loads even more oxygen making it super-oxygenated.  When this super-oxygenated blood reaches the arteries, arterioles and capillaries in and around the trigeminal ganglia, it triggers them to constrict even more and this aids in affecting a very rapid CH abort.

It's very important to avoid holding the lungful of oxygen for more than 30 seconds...  As soon as you start holding your breath, PACO2 levels start rising.  Holding your breath for more than 30 seconds will allow your PACO2 to rise above normal and this will have the opposite affect on the arterioles and capillaries in and around the trigeminal ganglia causing them to dilate... This will halt or stop the CH abort mechanism.

For most of us, if started before the CH pain reaches 8 to 9 on the 10-Point headache pain scale, we can abort a CH with this method of oxygen therapy in 4 to 8 complete cycles, (4 to 8 minutes).

The following chart comes from the pilot study we conducted in 2008 where 7 CH'ers used the same method of forced hyperventilation except with an oxygen demand valve or a 0 to 60 liter/minute regulator at a flow rate of 40 liters/minute equipped with a ClusterO2 kit without a mask.  In other words, instead of hyperventilating with room air, they hyperventilated with 100% oxygen.

This chart also illustrates the time to abort is directly associated with the pain level at start of therapy.  The higher the pain level, the longer it takes to abort a CH.

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There are a couple other things that happen during this method of oxygen therapy.  You'll experience mild paresthesia - a very slight tingling, prickling or crawling sensation around your face, lips and fingertips.  You may also experience a slight dizziness.  Lean against a wall if you feel dizzy and if you feel too dizzy, sit erect in a chair.

Both of these sensations are indications you've pushed your system into respiratory alkalosis and this is the best indication you're going to abort your CH as fast as possible. 

I realize that's a long convoluted answer to your question...  However, if you understand how and why this method of oxygen therapy is so efficient in aborting CH, you'll learn how to use it more effectively.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with this method of oxygen therapy, you can find the step by step procedures at the following link:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 6th, 2015 at 4:09pm
Hey Batch,
Thanks for that, it is very informative.
I was diagnosed with Emphysema and Pulmonary Fibrosis  12 weeks ago, albeit it early stage. Nonetheless, I fear the time will come when I will not be as efficient as I am now at absorbing O2 and will need to know how to get the best value out of the tank.
I will start practicing your hyperventilation method straight away.
Thanks again,
Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 6th, 2015 at 5:24pm
Peter,

If used on a routine (daily) bases, the hyperventilation technique used in this method of oxygen therapy strengthens the diaphragm and intercostal muscles so actually improves lung functions and capacity.  The anti-inflammatory regimen should help with the pulmonary fibrosis as vitamin D3 promotes a healthy immune system and normal cell growth.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 6th, 2015 at 5:31pm
Thanks Batch.

Will start straight away.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Oct 7th, 2015 at 12:00am
Hi Peter,
            I actually went on ebay last night, found some Benadryl with the active ingredient, they were 25 mg. so that should give me the option of just taking 25 mg or doubling up at night. All of the product was only available ex U.S.A, nothing from here in Australia.  Speaking of pollen in the air, only today here, there was talk on local radio about airbourne pollen at the minute. We have a lot of plane trees in Melbourne, and while we were in drought for 10 odd years, they didn't produce much pollen, but now our rain levels have increased, so has the pollen concentrate. Everyone on local radio has been complaining about burning throats, sore itchy eyes and extreme hay fever type symptoms. I experienced it 4 years ago in Barcelona, they have there streets lined with the same type of trees, it was a horrible experience.
So Batch is well on target with the Benadryl remedy, I took 15 ml yesterday morning and followed up with 20 ml before bed and the results are amazing !!!!!  I cant remember when I haven't been clogged up through the night,anything seemed to set it off, dust, perfume any thing like that would always clog me up, maybe its more a sinus issue, I don't know, but the Benadryl completely opens up my passage ways and I sleep so much better. I've been using a mouth piece for a couple of years now to stop snoring, it works for the most part, but was concerned about a sleep disorder which some have referenced it on here, but my wife has commented that while I have taken the Benadryl for the last few days, my snoring has been negligible ! I even feel refreshed in the morning ?  go figure ! the shadows which started a week or so ago have completely disappeared.  all very interesting.....
cheers
colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 1:11am
Great news Colin.

Long may it last.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 1:27pm
Batch - Thanks for the clarification.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 1:29pm
Colin - Great news!


Out of curiosity, do any of you guys take both Benadryl and melatonin?

I'm wondering if I should stop taking melatonin and try just Benadryl on its own.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 3:47pm
Slacker,

I take 20mg Melatonin and 50mg Benadryl most nights in the autumn and spring and have been sleeping really well since I started. Up to that my nights were sleepless and awful.

Best wishes,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 3:57pm

Peter510 wrote on Oct 7th, 2015 at 3:47pm:
Slacker,

I take 20mg Melatonin and 50mg Benadryl most nights in the autumn and spring and have been sleeping really well since I started. Up to that my nights were sleepless and awful.

Best wishes,

Peter.


Do you take them all at the same time?  Right when you go to bed?  An hour before?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 4:34pm
Slacker,

Yes, I take them together around 10:00 p.m. Which is usually about one and half hours before going to bed. Benadryl takes about 2 hours in the system to reach its full effectiveness and is pretty much gone after 6 hours.

Likewise the Melatonin  would be out of your system after about 6 hours, so you wake feeling refreshed, not drowsey.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 4:41pm
Gotcha...thanks Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 4:56pm
No problem...... I would be interested to know how you get on.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 5:22pm

Peter510 wrote on Oct 7th, 2015 at 4:56pm:
No problem...... I would be interested to know how you get on.

Peter.


I'll keep you guys posted.  Right now I'm getting hit 2-3 times per night - usually around 1AM, 3AM and 6AM.  Sometimes, it skips the 1AM hit.

Also, I was able to do the 25(OH)D test yesterday and hopefully I'll get the results soon.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 7th, 2015 at 11:17pm
Do you guys think it's too early to start another 90-regimen of B-50 Complex?  I last took it from 2/3 through 5/2 of this year. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Oct 8th, 2015 at 1:38am
Hi Slacker,
If you've already taken a course of the  b complex, by taking batches multi vitamin,daily,  that is enough to maintain your levels. I took mine and when I went in for a regular Vit D blood check, I asked then to check my B levels at the same time, my levels were good. So if you've already taken the course, I don't see the need to do it again, unless you got your levels checked and found you were deficient.
Peter, interesting to here about your sleep patterns after you started taking Benadryl and melatonin. I've not had to try melatonin yet, I haven't had night time hits for a long time. But am considering getting my sinuses looked at after this pollen season is over and I stop taking Benadryl.  I simply never realised how clogged up I was, until taking Benadryl !  even before the pollen appeared recently.
Its been a real eye opener for me, maybe its not a sinus type issue and its purely hay fever/allergy issue.  I have a friend who has to take a pill for his hay fever, every day of the year, he suffers quite badly,  I'm going to look into this.
I cant imagine it could be that good for me to have 20 ml of Benadryl every day of the year, but its tempting with the results.  As I'm typing this my wife out of the blue commented on how my breathing at night was so much better, ( no snoring  ;D)  so very interesting...
cheers
colin


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 8th, 2015 at 11:53am
Thanks Colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 9th, 2015 at 6:49pm
Got my 25(OH)D results back. 

Definitely on the high end of the range with 145.0 ng/mL.

Still getting hit 2-3 times per night and some severe shadows in the afternoon.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by dhjacks on Oct 10th, 2015 at 12:35am
Hi all, just an update.  I started the D3 regimen in mid-2012.  Changed my life.  I've had two short cycles since then, and no clusters for the past 19 months.  I may forget a lot of things, but I don't forget to take my D3 every day (1500). 
Special thank you to Batch.  I came by to see if people were still promoting this and was amazed to see Batch continues to encourage people and impart advice.  That's a great public service.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Oct 10th, 2015 at 12:54am

dhjacks wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 12:35am:
I came by to see if people were still promoting this and was amazed to see Batch continues to encourage people and impart advice.  That's a great public service.


There are quite a few who regularly explain just how it has transformed their lives.

Batch deserves a knighthood for his services to the CH community with his D3 and oxygen advice.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 10th, 2015 at 1:15am
Well said, guys.  Batch has been so patient and helpful to anyone looking for guidance.  Can't say enough about the man.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 11th, 2015 at 11:16am
So this is interesting...

On Thurs night, I probably had my worst night yet - 3 hits, including a KIP 8 which lasted an hour because I was unable to abort with 02. 

So I decided to try something different on Fri night by skipping the melatonin and just taking Benadryl alone (50 mg).  I got two KIP 4s which were both easily aborted with O2 within 5 minutes.  Probably my best night in almost two weeks.

Last night, I again skipped the melatonin and just took Benadryl.

No hits!  Slept 7.5 hours straight with just some heavy shadowing in the morning that I knocked out with a strong cup of coffee. 

*crossing my fingers*

*knock on wood*


EDIT: 

Forgot to add, after getting my test results back (145.0 ng/mL), I also decreased my D3 dose from 20,000 IU to 10,000 on Friday.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 11th, 2015 at 2:42pm
Slacker,

Thanks for the updates...  Off hand I'd say you're still on a positive trajectory, so stick with your game plan and please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 11th, 2015 at 3:35pm
Thanks Batch.  Will do.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Oct 12th, 2015 at 1:05am
Hi slacker,
                I can only re iterate what Batch said.
Your current situation mirrors what I went thru.
I can honestly say that it wasn't until the following cycle (3 months later) that I noticed a drop in intensity or pain level.  It annoyed me, why wasn't I able to go pain free like others !!!  That's when I started to fiddle with things, diet, a course of good probiotics, a few extra things that batch got me to do.  It really took a while for things to settle and to feel I was in control of things.
Through out the whole time I religiously took the regime.
For me I think there's so many contributing factors or triggers to try and deal with, for instance, as per Batch's findings when he slipped into a cycle not long ago while the pollen was thick, I'm fighting with the same scenario here at the minute, but 20 ml of Benadryl at night is definitely keeping a cycle at bay !  The next thing for me will be the heat of our summer here, from January to march, I work outside in the elements so I cant hide from it, but I'll deal with that as it comes. 
But overall, I can honestly say, compared to my first ever 2 cycles, ( pryor to the Batch's regime), when I do get hit, its barely a wimper compared to back then, It still hurts, but nothing gets over kip 4-5, at its worst.
Hang in there Slacker, hopefully you'll be on the improve very soon.
regards
colin 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 12th, 2015 at 9:18am
Colin,

Definitely.  I don't plan on stopping this regimen ever. 

Been on it for at least a couple of years and even when I've had a hiccup for two, the cycles have been shorter and less intense. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Emma marie h on Oct 14th, 2015 at 7:13pm
Hi everyone, sorry its taking so long to post an update.

I started the D3 regime on Tuesday 29/10/15

I had my first pain free night in 61 days on Thursday!!! I was in total shock when I woke Saturday morning (I was having 3 attacks a night)

Batch I cant thank you enough, I will be grateful to you for the rest of my life. I am finally able to give my son 100per cent again and be the kind of mom he deserves. I actually look forward to going to bed now.

A few odd things in the first few days were, my CH happen on my left side religiously they switched to my right.

Also am having shadows at the min but I also have a cold so I think that might be the reason.

Thank you so much again Batch for finding this, your changing and saving lives



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 14th, 2015 at 9:20pm
Emma Marie.

Woo Hoo...  Wonderful news...  I'm very happy for you... Give the Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) a try if the shadows get onerous...

Sláinte,  Please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 15th, 2015 at 12:38am
Great news, Emma Marie.  Glad you're finally getting some relief. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Oct 15th, 2015 at 1:23am
Wonderful news Emma Marie. It is simply incredible what a difference it makes when you've an effective preventive that lets you just get on with normal life.

Long may it continue to work.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shadia on Oct 15th, 2015 at 5:47am
wow!! that is great news... i just can't believe all the wonderful results. Batch should get a Nobel prize for humanitarian work !!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Oct 15th, 2015 at 7:04am
Shadia, you're right, Batch deserves the nobel prize of the highest standard.

Emma marie, delighted to hear your good news. Onwards and upwards for you and your family  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Stevo on Oct 15th, 2015 at 7:56am
Great news Emma!


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Emma marie h on Oct 15th, 2015 at 6:37pm
Thanks everyone :)

It is so amazing to feel in control of my life again. Myself and my partner are planning our future again, which was put on hold for awhile. I applied for a job, I should have an interview next week :)Making commitments that involve leaving the house no longer terrify me :)

Thanks Batch for the tip on Bendrayl, Peter has very kindly posted me a bottle until I arrange for my own to get here.

PF wishes to all of you

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clarkster on Oct 21st, 2015 at 6:06am
Batch,

I don't have the words to adequately express my thanks for your efforts in helping me become PF over the last 3 weeks through the information you've shared here.   

I'm coming out of the longest cycle I've experienced in 30 years, thanks to the D3 regime.  And your explanation of pollen/histamines (I have no known allergies) explains why I had the worst time of my life, in my most favorite place in all the world, a week ago.  I was in the middle of a pine forrest with 20 mph sustained winds for 4 days. Allergy sufferers were complaining of being stuffy, while I was getting slammed 8 - 10 times a day with the most severe headaches I've had in decades.

I'll be seeing my Neuro later this month to educate him on D3, get off Dopamax, steroids, get my blood work done, etc..

Tears are falling as I type.  From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

V/R

Clarkster


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by shadia on Oct 21st, 2015 at 6:12am
I am so happy for you that you are pain free, and i know the feeling of being so relieved and happy that you cry, and people are great on this site , they stick with you till you are pain free.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Oct 21st, 2015 at 6:47am
Hey Clarkster,
hearing your story and how you feel, as you so well describe, brings tears to my eyes too.
I think a lot of us felt/feel as you do.
Becoming and staying PF is a godsend.
Thank you Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 21st, 2015 at 8:18am
Clarkster,

Welcome to CH.com and the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Stick with this regimen year round and everything starts getting better.

I also want to thank you for the kind words... in a great first post.  It's experiences like yours that help convince more CH'ers to start this regimen... 

Educating your neurologists on the efficacy of this regimen is also very important...  Who knows... he might just suggest this regimen to the next CH'er who walks into his office...

Thanks again, take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:33am
Very happy for you Clarkster. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Oct 22nd, 2015 at 1:09am
Great news Clarkster.

This is the sort of tears we like to see and not those from the pain of CH. Long may you be pain free.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 23rd, 2015 at 8:44am
Now is a good time for a request to CH'ers who have been taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent their CH for at least a month to see their PCP or neurologist for the 25(OH)D lab test.  Once you have the results in hand, please take the online survey.

I am also interested to know if you took Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) while taking the anti-inflammatory regimen and what affect it had on the frequency, severity and duration of your CH.  There's a comments section in the survey where you can explain this.

To start this survey, click on the following link:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

The reason for taking this survey is very important.  We can't convince neurologists and headache specialists to suggest the anti-inflammatory regimen to their patients with CH unless there is compelling medical evidence. 

The results of this survey provide that evidence.  Moreover, the statistical power of that evidence is based on the number of completed surveys or sample size.  In simple terms, if 100 completed surveys is good, 200 to 300 completed surveys is even better.  The greater the sample size the more statistical power.

As of 15 April 2015, 280 participants started the online survey. 156 CH'ers completed the required questions and submitted so we're closing in on the near term goal of 200 completed surveys.

For the CH'ers who started this survey but didn't complete it or hit the submit button, you should be able to use the link above to go back into your survey to complete and submit.

Many of you have indicated you wanted to "Pay it Forward" after discovering the benefits of taking the anti-inflammatory regimen...  Taking this survey is a great way to pay it forward...

Thank all of you for your support.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 23rd, 2015 at 10:51am
Batch - Thought I completed the survey awhile back but wasn't sure so I filled it out just in case.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by hockeyhead on Oct 27th, 2015 at 5:34pm
Batch

I wanted to give you some feedback with my first run with the D3 treatment.  I haven't been to the doc yet to get blood work, but I will follow up with your survey once I do.

A quick history of my situation.

I found this site 10+ years ago and it was a savior because it helped form the CH diagnosis with my PCP.  I had been dealing with the issue, deemed as migraine's by all the docs, for 10 years prior to finding this site.  I'm episodic and deal with the beast for 5-6 months every 2-3 years.  I've gone thru a variety of meds.  Now I stay on Verapamil all the time and use O2 (thanks to this site) to abort as well as triptans if o2 is not around.  My cycle typically ramps up and eventually I have 1 or 2 rounds of prednisone before it fades away.

I'm about 2 months into my current cycle.  Once I hit the point of multiple daily attacks (4-6), I start my first pred taper.  This time, the taper re-ignited an issue with my eye called CSR, so I had to stop.  I came limping back to this site found your thread.

It took some time sifting thru all the responses to get to the best cocktail as it seems to have evolved over the years.  This past Saturday, I picked up D3, Calcium Citrate, and Fish Oil.  I took 40,000iu D3 and the bottle recommended dose of Cal Citrate and Fish Oil.  I did the same on Sunday and then tapered down to 20,000iu yesterday and today.  My pred taper ended the prior Sunday.  I wasn't getting attacks while on the pred, but I started get an 11am hit the day after my last pred dose.  The same 11am hit lasted thru Saturday when I started the D3.  Sunday I got a light hit at 6pm that went away with 2-3 mins of o2.

Yesterday and today, I've had no hits and no shadows at all.  I don't want to jump the gun, but I feel different.  We all know the feeling of the beast in the background, but right now it's not there.  I'll follow up with updates but so far so good.

First, I want to say thanks for doing this research and seeing this through.  It takes a special person to keep this momentum going after they have been freed of the pain themselves. 

I likely won't have a chance to get to my doc for a few weeks due to craziness on the work schedule.  I was planning on working my way down to a daily 10,000iu dose with the weekly 50,000iu load dose and keeping on the Calcium Citrate and Fish Oil.  I've also been doing a glass of lemonade with the doses.  Does this sound about right?

Sorry for this long-winded post.  You seem to be interested in detailed feedback, so I figured it was the least I could do with all the work you put in.

Thanks again

Frank

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 28th, 2015 at 3:35am
Frank,

Thanks for the feedback.  Off hand, I'd say you're on the mend and the anti-inflammatory regimen is doing its thing to prevent your CH.  The following chart from the online survey illustrates response times...

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I keep the latest version of this regimen as well as the latest results from the online survey of CH'ers taking this regimen on page one of the following link:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

You'll need to scroll down a bit...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Melissa on Oct 31st, 2015 at 12:38pm
Since starting D3 four days ago (I'm on the minimum amount); Thursday night I only had one attack instead of three, and last night no attacks at all. Only thing is I woke this morning with what felt like a raging sinus infection (we have a big storm system moving through), so I took an oil of oregano and an Aleve. Feeling much better now! I will not say anything good or bad D3's efficiency though until I have 5 PF nights in a row, THEN I am hoping to be able to say it works for me! <crossing fingers>

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Oct 31st, 2015 at 1:31pm
Great to hear, Melissa.  Keep at it!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Melissa on Oct 31st, 2015 at 10:20pm

slacker032 wrote on Oct 31st, 2015 at 1:31pm:
Great to hear, Melissa.  Keep at it!

Thank you so much! I'm trying! :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by blacklab on Nov 1st, 2015 at 12:39am
Melissa,  good luck with The D3 !
          I hope you continue to improve.  As a footnote, I hope your one of the ones it works for immediately, for me, it took quite some months !  Stay on it for life, at the least its very healthy for you and like most who start it during a cycle, find that its the next cycle where the benefits truly shine thru.....  all the best

colin

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Melissa on Nov 1st, 2015 at 8:13am
Thank you, Colin. :)


I woke with two attacks last night that I killed within 10 min. with O2, but I'm not giving up! I will give it time to work. Plus, I've noticed my head does feel better in between the pain time.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Nov 1st, 2015 at 10:42am
Melissa, have you tried adding Benadryl to your regimen?  Check out this post by Batch:

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Melissa on Nov 1st, 2015 at 12:25pm
[quote author=4A55585A525C4B090A0B390 link=1291969416/2362#2362 date=1446392572]Melissa, have you tried adding Benadryl to your regimen?  Check out this post by Batch:

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE
I won't take benedryl, it always makes me feel like I got hit by a train since I am med sensitive. It's alright, I am doing ok so far. The hits I had were killed at 6 min. and 9 min. respectively.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:37am
Seeing as it's coming up to 3 years since my last attack, thanks of course to the D3 regimen, my O2 supplier is picking up my dusty neglected tanks next week. Quite a moment, hope it doesn't jinx anything. Hat's off as always to you Batch! :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ThirdEye on Nov 4th, 2015 at 8:41pm
Hello All, I'm ech. Ive started this D3 deal 3 days ago. I'm getting about 7-8 hits, but Oxygen I received yesterday is helping to cut em short. I've gone thru just over 2 E tanks in 24 hrs. Shadows seem to be dissipating, but still present. You know how it is ya don't want to proclaim victory just yet with so many setbacks in the past. Hoping the D3 will work its magic for me. Appreciate the regimen batch.
SemperFi

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 5th, 2015 at 1:55am
UhrrrraH... ECH

Here's to an Early 240th Happy Birthday to the United States Marine Corps... and you too!!!  Have one on me at Tun Tavern.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Hang tough Devil Dog...  God loves a Marine... so it will get better as long as you stick with this regimen...  If you're not PF by the USMC Birthday, start taking Benadryl (Diphenhydramine hydrochlorid), 25 mg at bed time...  No joy after two days... try 50 mg for another five nights.

See your local quack for details... or PM me...

Semper Fi

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Nov 5th, 2015 at 4:45am

Chuffy wrote on Nov 4th, 2015 at 7:37am:
Seeing as it's coming up to 3 years since my last attack, thanks of course to the D3 regimen, my O2 supplier is picking up my dusty neglected tanks next week. Quite a moment, hope it doesn't jinx anything. Hat's off as always to you Batch! :)


It took me just over 3 years of being CH pain free before I returned my O2, although I've still got two regulators plus masks, just in case...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by ThirdEye on Nov 5th, 2015 at 5:48am
Thanks batch, A Marine will never give up. May have thought about it briefly, but I'm all about defeating this beast one battle at a time. Thanks for The goal date of the USMC Birthday on Nov 10, The Corp will be 240 years. I hadn't thought of it till you mentioned it. Caught up in my mind at the moment.
Not sure about all the vitamins I'm taking so heres a pic.
Cluster02 mask arrives today.  :D
Thanks for the support. And batch, God loves a batch of good deeds done for the benefit of others. I salute you Sir. Amen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 6th, 2015 at 12:37am
Hey Chuffy,

Thanks for the feed back...  I love long term success stories with the anti-inflammatory regimen like yours...  Please shoot me a PM so we can cover what's been happening since Joyce and I met with you in Seattle...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by debpa on Nov 27th, 2015 at 1:59pm
Hi all, Baer is back in cycle after a three and a half year remission.  Started, as is typical, around the time change late October. He has been taking the D3 regime diligently since April 5, 2012 which we are convinced has kept this bastard at bay for so long.

This current cycle is also proof that the regime is working because this has so far been the LIGHTEST one ever.  He has several days in between headaches and when he does have them it is just one or two during a 24 hour period.  He has had three thus far which required O2 to put it to rest in a few minutes.  Only one of these occurred during the night so he has been getting plenty of rest. 

Having just read the updates on the D3 regime, he will be adding 50B and the multi vitamin. 

I am so very encouraged by this development and we are both happy that he will get through this cycle without excruciating pain.  Thank you Batch and to all who have been so supportive through the years.   

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 28th, 2015 at 4:48pm
Hey Debpa,

Thanks for the update... The vitamin B50 will help, but I suspect some Benadryl (Dipehnhydramine) will help even more.

It's quite possible Baer is having an allergic reaction... These can be sub-clinical, i.e., no obvious or outward indications...  but the allergic reaction is still there.

As a first-generation antihistamine, Benadryl has the capacity to pass through the blood brain barrier to block histamine receptors on neurons within the brain and in particular, the hypothalamus and trigeminal ganglia.  A 25 mg Benadryl tablet every 12 hours should work wonders in getting Baer back completely pain free.

Be sure not to let him drive as Benadryl will make him drowsy...  If he needs to drive during the day, have him take two 25 mg tablets of Benadryl when he's home for the day.

If there's no response to the Benadryl after 48 hours, it might be wise to have Baer check with his PCP as he may have a low grade infection that's sucking up available vitamin D3 leaving too little to prevent his CH.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lbh on Dec 9th, 2015 at 11:09am
Hey can somebody please post a link to the most current D3 regimen with all the cofactors? I think it has changed since I last looked. Thanks.

Lbh

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Dec 26th, 2015 at 5:50pm

lbh wrote on Dec 9th, 2015 at 11:09am:
Hey can somebody please post a link to the most current D3 regimen with all the cofactors? I think it has changed since I last looked. Thanks.

Lbh




Supplement Dose

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol)
10,000 IU/day (Adjust as needed to keep serum 25(OH)D near 80 ng/mL)

Omega 3 Fish Oil
1000 to 2400 mg/day (Minimum of EPA 360 mg/day, DHA 240 mg/day)

Calcium *

220 to 500 mg/day

Magnesium
400 - 600 mg/day (magnesium chloride, glycinate, citrate or oxide)

Vitamin K2 (MK-4 & MK-7)

MK-4 1000 mcg/day, MK-7 200 mcg/day (MK-7 preferred due to half-life)

Vitamin A (Retinol) *
900 mcg (3,000 IU) for men, 700 mcg (2,333 IU) for women (Maximum Dose)

Vitamin B 50
3 month course, after that the 7 B vitamins in the Mature Multi will be sufficient

Zinc *

10 mg/day

Boron *
1 mg/day

* Included in the Mature Multi in sufficient quantity

You might consider sending a PM request to Batch for his recently published detailed pdf. Good luck ;)

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MiRose on Jan 4th, 2016 at 12:30am
Hi Batch!

Here's a recap and a follow up.

Got my first classic cluster headaches in Feb 2015.  The pressure in my head was so great at all times that I had to stay upright, even during sleeping.  Got major hits at 1am, 4am, 6am.  Slept 5 hours a day, sitting up, for a week.

Started the Batch D3 regime at the start of the second week.  My head pressure was gone the first night!  But I still got the 1am, 4am, 6am hits, with half intensity.

Two days later I went to bed at 11pm and woke up a 9am the next day!!!  No headaches.  WOW!

My eyes watered every day at 10pm and I had a few nagging pain shadows during the day that lasted three weeks.  After that 100%, pain free.

So, I'm at around 10 months pain free!

A light shadow will come back if I -
1. Miss the regimen for 2-3 days.
2. Drink wheat beer, home made brewery beer, or tequila.
3. Drink a lot of sugar with any alcohol.  Like jack and cokes.

Thanks again Batch and you have a Happy New Year!!!! :) :) :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MiRose on Jan 4th, 2016 at 12:38am
Hello everyone!  I have a question.

During your cycle, is any part of your scalp numb? 

For me the right side of the top of my head going down to my temple was numb, feeling like it was sunburned.  I was out in the sun the day I first felt that, but then the next day I had my first cluster cycle.

The scalp numbness subsided in proportion to the cluster headaches subsiding.  Once I was pain free it went back to normal.

Is this a common occurrence with all CH suffers? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 4th, 2016 at 1:56am
Hey Rose,

Good question...  Cutaneous allodynia: Pain resulting from an innocuous stimulus to normal skin or scalp, (like pain from the slightest touch), paresthesia - a slight tingling or prickling sensation prior to an attack, and numbness in the pain area during and following an attack, are common symptoms of the cluster headache syndrome. 

In short... no biggie...  When your cycle is over or prevented with the anti-inflammatory regimen... these symptoms will go away.

Try to see your PCP or neurologist for the 25(OH)D lab test.  If either of them are resistant to your request for this lab test or they tell you it isn't covered by your medical insurance for CH, tell them you're concerned about osteoporosis after taking prednisone...  This lab test is covered for that disorder.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by B.Baer on Jan 8th, 2016 at 3:53pm
Batch,

Baer here, and thanks for all you do.

I've  had my D-3 levels checked this week. Results came back >60. 25 Hydroxy Vitamin D. My results from 7/19/13 were at >120.

I've been taking 50,0000 IU loading dose once a

week with 20,0000 IU's per day for weeks  prior to

having the blood test. Taking the Benadryl had no

effect. PCP, said blood work looked good otherwise,

and could see no obvious infection indications .  2012

was when I went into remission last cycle and I've

been Headache free for over three and one half

years. I would like to see my levels go up but can't

understand why they have not. I take all of the most

recent cofactors you've recently recommened to

DebPa, my wife. She has been posting for me but has

trouble logging on as of late. I await your response,

stumped at the moment. Some have been difficult to

abort with O2, and I've resorted to 2mg shots of

Trex at least once a day to extinquish the struborn

ones. I've had worse cycles and I'm about 2 and one

half months into this one. My last cycle lasted 3

months or so.

Thanks again and I really appreciate the input.

All the best,

Baer

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jan 8th, 2016 at 8:22pm
Hello people, here i am again. Last time i popped in here i was full of the joys of life having been on D3 and PF for around 9 months i think. My PF time lasted a little over a year and then, for no reason at all, came to an abrupt end at the beginning of December. Since then I have been walking the walk we all know so annoyingly well, have kept up the D3 and cofactors, had the 25(OH)D levels checked and I should be fine. Yesterday I finally caved, pred taper and lithium here I come. Bah!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 9th, 2016 at 2:21pm
Hey Wayne,

Sorry to hear the CH beast decided to jump ugly on you...  Given it's summer down your way, you may be experiencing an allergic reaction...  An allergic reaction dumps a load of histamine into your system that triggers neurons in the hypothalamus and trigeminal ganglia to release calcitonin gene-related peptide (GCRP).  CGRP in turn triggers neurogenic inflammation and pain...  This chain reaction can blunt the anti-inflammatory regimen's CH preventative effect.

Taking a first-generation antihistamine like Benadry (Diphenhydramine) that passes through the blood brain barrier to block H1 histamine receptors will stop the histamine to CGRP chain reaction.  This will enable the anti-inflammatory regimen to do its thing in preventing your CH.  If you can't get Diphenhydramine, ask your chemist for a good first-generation antihistamine and take as directed.

A 25 mg tablet of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) taken every 12 hours for a week or so should do the trick.  Most CH'ers respond to Benadryl in 24 to 36 hours.  If you haven't experienced a favorable change in your CH symptoms after a week, discontinue and start looking for an infection... 

Infections can compete for available vitamin D3, its metabolites and the enzymes need to hydroxylate them.  This leaves too little vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D to prevent your CH.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jan 9th, 2016 at 2:46pm
Hey Batch, thank you for the feedback, I will get right onto it. We do have a pollen swarm here at the moment so maybe......?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Jan 9th, 2016 at 2:51pm

Wayne wrote on Jan 9th, 2016 at 2:46pm:
We do have a pollen swarm here at the moment so maybe......?


Quite possibly as this year the hay fever season has been a lot worse than most years here in NZ. Although I've not really noticed due to using the antihistamines.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Wayne on Jan 9th, 2016 at 3:12pm
A quick question Batch, how important is it to take the whole regimen together in one dose, or can you split it up?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 9th, 2016 at 4:48pm
Wayne,

I take the entire regimen at one time more for convenience.  It's best to take the vitamin D3 and Omega-3 Fish Oil and magnesium with the largest meal of the day or at least with food.  This does two things... it lessens the incidence of GI tract disturbances and it aids in vitamin D3 absorption.  That said, you can take the vitamin D3 with the largest meal of the day and the rest whenever...

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 9th, 2016 at 5:20pm
Hey Baer,

I suspect you've a couple things going on that are keeping the anti-inflammatory regimen from working properly to prevent your CH.

The first is vitamin D3 absorption.  If you're taking 20,000 + IU/day vitamin D3 and still haven't reached a therapeutic 25(OH)D level around 80 ng/mL, you may not be absorbing the vitamin D3 completely.  Try popping the vitamin D3 softgel capsules between your back teeth and swirling the contents under your tongue and keeping it there for at least 5 minutes without swallowing. 

This sublingual method of taking vitamin D3 enables it to pass directly into the bloodstream through the arteries and capillaries under the tongue.  This bypasses the GI tract and makes more of the vitamin D3 available much sooner.

It's taken five years, but I think we have a balanced formulation in the anti-inflammatory regimen that supports sufficient vitamin D3 metabolism for most CH'ers to prevent their CH... 

We're basically looking at a biochemical reaction where the reactants, (vitamin D3 and the cofactors: magnesium, zinc, boron and vitamin A (retinol)) are all consumed in the process of making not only 1,25(OH)2D3, calcitriol, the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3, but also the enzymes needed in vitamin D3 metabolism. 

As most of this reaction takes place extrarenal at the cellular level throughout the body and brain, all the reactants need to be present in the right amount.

Accordingly, adding more magnesium may be required.  If you're taking 400 mg/day, bump the dose to 800 mg/day, but split this to 400 mg in the AM and 400 mg in the PM.  This will lessen the probability of osmotic diarrhea. 

An allergy can still be a problem as some allergies are sub-clinical, i.e., no outward or obvious symptoms.  Try some Benardryl (Diphenhydramine).  A single 25 mg tablet every 12 hours should work just fine.  Just be careful if you need to drive, you will get drowsy.  If driving is a must, take two of the 25 mg Benadryl tablets when you get home for the day.

Take care, please keep us posted and don't get frustrated ... There are a couple other things we can try.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by rookie on Jan 13th, 2016 at 7:02am
hello everyone,

The regimen has suddenly stopped working for me. started Dec 16 and it has successfully kept the beast away. but starting 4 days ago it has started to increase in severity with a kip 7 hitting me last night and this morning. im def. regressing.
the only thing i've done differently is travelled, switched from Solgar brand to Natural for the fish oil and multi vitamin and ran out of allerfin (similar to Benadryl) so i started using Diphelin and Chlorohistol (both Gen 1).

Im also getting nasal pain before and during the headache, more than I ever did before.

has anyone had this happen to him? any advise on what I could do to bring the effectiveness of the regimen back.?

thank you all!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Jan 14th, 2016 at 12:19am
Things I'd look at are:
  • Can you go back to a previous brand of fish oil?
  • Any allergies that could be affecting you?
  • Any infection?


Batch will no doubt have a few other ideas / suggestions.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by rookie on Jan 14th, 2016 at 2:35am
Hello Mike,

Yes will go back to the Solgar fish oil today.
I have nasal allergies which Im taking Diphelin for (no benedryl were I live.)
as for infection, nothing I can point at. maybe ill go on a antibiotic course just in case.
Ill try anything.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 15th, 2016 at 12:06am
Rookie,

I'd hold off on the antibiotic for a while to give the other changes an opportunity to kick start the CH pain free response.

If you do try an antibiotic, be sure to pick up a good probiotic and take it at the same time to help rebuild the friendly colonies of bacteria that will be killed off by the antibiotic... Roughly 70% of our immune systems resides in and around the ecosystems of friendly colonies of biota in our GI tract called the microbiome...  In short, a happy gut is a healthy gut.

As you've been on travel, I'd start the probiotic anyway...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Nevres on Jan 16th, 2016 at 11:27am
Hi Batch, i have a question regarding the D3 regimen, i tried searching through the thread but wasn't able to find anything related.

My doctor started me yesterday in a Verapamil, Methylprednisolone and Sodium Naproxen for 2 weeks to try to bust the cycle (im also taking gastric protectors for the Naproxen). I started the D3 regimen with Fish Oil, Magnesium and Zinc around a week ago and i assume im in the peak of my cycle as im having 7-8 Kip's at around 9 am and 3pm, usually i start with 3-4's at the beginning and end of my cycles.

The question is if these two regimes can coexist or if ill have to put the D3 away while i go with the chemicals?

Thank you for all you do

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 16th, 2016 at 5:49pm
Hey Nevres,

Thanks for the headzup you've started the anti-inflammatory regimen and good question.  Good move!  Over the last five years we've found this regimen is compatible with just about all the CH medications prescribed as abortives and preventatives.  Some neurologists are concerned that calcium reduces verapamil's therapeutic effect as a preventative. 

That said, the most recent version of the anti-inflammatory regimen starts with a minimum of 220 mg/day calcium.  Separating the verapamil and calcium doses by 12 hours appears to optimize the benefits of both without detracting from the CH preventative function of verapamil. 

Accordingly, the short answer is keep taking the anti-inflammatory regimen.  It is the only thing addressing the cause of your CH.

Check your PM inbox.  I've sent some additional information.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jan 20th, 2016 at 11:20pm
Hello, everybody! Batch!!  I haven't checked in in such a long time and am happy to see so many new people asking questions and starting on D3. Next month will be 2 years being totally pain-free since I started on the regimen. BATCH...I still cannot thank you enough for all you have done for me and continue to do for so many people. You have given new light to so many people who felt all hope was lost. You will always be a legend to me and I owe my new life to you. I will be reading in more often now.   I wish everyone else the very best of wishes and luck. We are all one family and no one here is ever alone. Pain-free wishes to all!!   :)

-Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 21st, 2016 at 1:02am
Hey Andy,

Thank you for the wonderful update and kind words. It's comments like yours that do more to entice CH'ers to give this regimen a try than any of my long-winded posts. 

Aside from preventing my chronic CH, which like you, gave me back a quality of life I never thought possible with CH, this regimen has changed me as well. 

Reaching out to CH'ers with the anti-inflammatory regimen and capturing results like yours as well as from the online survey of CH'ers taking this regimen, has allowed me to observe many other benefits made possible by taking this regimen.  This has expanded my thinking into the benefits of taking this regimen to prevent and treat so many other medical conditions linked to a lack of vitamin D3.

Thank you again for the feedback and take care.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by mrsbenson03 on Jan 22nd, 2016 at 11:27am
Wanted to give you an update-I'm almost through the third week of my 6-8 week cycle, the 3rd and 4th week of the cycle are historically the worst. Last week was more intense, but still not as bad as cycles previous thanks to this regimen. I ended up increasing the fish oil, from 1 to four and adding Benadryl and the Indomethacin.  Went back down to a low pain/management level by Friday about maybe two hits a day, minimal and could be resolved with about 15 min of Oxgyen. 


This week,  I dropped down to 10,000 on Wednesday (Day 7 of week 2), and the hits the next morning were pretty intense. I resolved by going back up to 50,000 and feel great! Very small twinge this morning, but that's it.


The regimen is working for me, but it appears that I am having a hard time absorbing the Vitamin D without the benadryl and without a high dosage of the Vitamin D,  which would totally make sense based on some of the histamine issues I think I was having prior to this cluster cycle.  I had my Vitamin D levels checked on Tuesday, so I am waiting those results-should have them today.  I think i am going to continue the 50,000, unless my Vitamin D levels are super high.  I want to stop taking the Indomethacin, maybe over this weekend.  I just want to see if that is helping at all-if not, i'd rather not take it.  The side effects to the stomach lining seem to be no joke, based on what I have read. 

While this is working, I have also changed my diet dramatically.  Since this is an anti-inflammatory regimen, it only makes sense to not inflame my body further. So I am following an autoimmune paleo diet/low histamine diet.  I am also going to look at some digestive enzymes/l-glutamine to do some gut repair, in addition to my probiotic.  I have a theory that some of us that are having issues with absorbing the Vitamin D, may have issues with gut health overall (gluten, dairy, histamine intolerance, SIBO, etc.) 


Kids and hubby are on the vitamin regimen.  It feels so good to be doing something for all of us. 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Jan 22nd, 2016 at 4:35pm
Hi Batch,
I was just wondering! You wrote, the most recent version of the anti-inflammatory regimen starts with a minimum of 220 mg/day calcium.  Separating the verapamil and calcium doses by 12 hours appears to optimize the benefits of both without detracting from the CH preventative function of verapamil.

How do folk that are taking verapamil 120mg 2-3 and 4 times a day and are on the vitamin D regimen separate the 220 mg/day calcium by 12hrs?

It's been 3yrs now since my last CH and I put it all down to the vitamin D regimen, so once again, thanq Batch! For giving me my life back.

Hoppy



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by rookie on Jan 23rd, 2016 at 9:39am
Hello Batch and everyone

well i held off on the antibiotics and verapamil. stuck with allerfin and been pain free for the past 7 days.
I believe not having the allerfin and relying on other antihistamines is what caused the relapse.

this is the 6th week of my cycle.

thanks batch and everyone for your guidance and help.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 23rd, 2016 at 11:19am
Hey Rookie,

Thanks for the update and great news.  Some of the first-gen antihistamines come in different formulations...  The best advise is stick with the brand that works...  In other words... if it ain't broken... don't fix it.

And if someone claims they have a first-gen antihistamine that works better...

Recall that Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union, Sergey Georgiyevich Gorshkov once commented on a new weapon system his engineers claimed was better than the existing system that had worked well without problems for many years...

"Better is the evil of good enough."

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 23rd, 2016 at 11:34am
mrsbenson03,

You're on the right track increasing your vitamin D3 dose along with some of the other supplements.  You should be able to run up to 40,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and stay there until your cycle is over...  Just be sure to drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day and to get the 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH lab tests. 

The 25(OH)D lab results will likely come back around 160 ng/mL and your PCP will go into fibrillation with anal leakage...  If he does, make sure he notes your serum calcium is within its normal reference range and PTH is low. 

It's not uncommon for CH'ers taking vitamin D3 doses ≥ 15,000 IU/day to have their serum calcium at the upper limit of the normal reference range...  All this means is calcium homeostaysis is working as advertised to keep serum calcium in range.

I would come off the Indomethacin asap...  All NSAIDs cause GI tract bleeds... Even the heart healthy 81 mg aspirin will cause bleeds.

Vitamin D3 and Omega-3 Fish Oil are just as effective in relieving pain and they have no adverse side effects... only favorable side effects...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 23rd, 2016 at 12:13pm
Hoppy,

Good question.  The pharmacokinetics of calcium and verapamil are similar.  They both need to dissolve in the GI tract, be absorbed into the bloodstream where enzymatic processes change the verapamil into a bioactive metabolite. 

As calcium is water soluble, it reaches a maximum serum concentration rapidly in 3 to 6 hours.  It also has a short half-life of ~ six hours as the kidneys filter it out and pump it over the side in urine rapidly.

When taken daily, the serum concentration of verapamil continues to build over several days to weeks until it reachs the point of equilibrium for the dose taken.  Dr. Heaney's chart below tells the same story with vitamin D3 as it would for verapamil.

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At some point prior to reaching an equilibrium for a given daily dose, the serum concentration of the verapamil metabolite reaches a therapeutic threshold... and "starts working" to produce the desired effect.

Taking all the verapamil at one time is just as effective in building serum concentrations of its metabolite as taking the total dose split up over the day.

Accordingly, separating the doses of each by 12 hours, gives verapamil and calcium an equal opportunity to do their biological thing without calcium adversely impacting the effectiveness of verapamil.

Hope that answers your question.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jon019 on Jan 23rd, 2016 at 4:49pm

Batch wrote on Jan 23rd, 2016 at 12:13pm:
[size=18]Taking all the verapamil at one time is just as effective in building serum concentrations of its metabolite as taking the total dose split up over the day.



Batch...your posts always amaze, amuse, and/or inform... and I am proud and thankful to be in any group that includes you! I do have a comment/question about the above quote...(probably misunderstanding) and while I surely do not know anything about pharmacology from a science aspect... I am a long time subject of pharmacological effects.

Verapamil was a long term 70% effective med for me...at doses approaching 1000 mg/dy with surprisingly minimal negative side effects. Per my neuro... I took divided doses throughout the day. I  found the best effectiveness was to time the doses to approx. 90 min before my clockwork expected CH hits.

Loaded dosing...for ME...proved ineffective as I suspect the serum level went below therapeutic after
a period of time. Not to say the bolus effect is ineffectual...as I found timed doses best but SR (sustained release) version of the drug completely INEFFECTIVE...

I guess my point/question is...did you really mean to say that one time dosing is equivalent to divided dosing? At least in my case.... that was not the case...and I would suggest that folks using verapamil experiment with one time vs divided to see which works best for them. Cuz for CH folks....."we are all the same...and we are all different".

Best

Jon


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 23rd, 2016 at 10:40pm
Jon,

Good point.  There are obvious differences between Cmax, the maximum serum concentration after dose, the average serum concentration, and the serum concentration of maximum therapeutic effect.  Tmax, the time interval at which Cmax occurs is another important pharmacokinetic parameter we need to know and understand in preventing CH with verapamil. 

In my opinion, all of us need to understand the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of any pharmaceutical like verapamil or neutraceutical like vitamin D3 we take.

If you look at my original post on this topic, I was careful to say "serum concentration" and not serum concentration of maximum therapeutic effect.  The two can be the same if the average serum concentration is higher than the threshold for a therapeutic effect.

The following two graphs illustrate what I'm talking about.  The first graph illustrates plots of verapamil's serum concentration over time from dose for sublingual and oral administrations.

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As you can see the shape of these two plots are very similar.  You can also see that the sublingual verapamil plot reaches a higher Cmax at 55 ng/mL 1 hour after dose, where the oral verapamil reaches a lower Cmax at 45 ng/mL 1.5 hours after dose.

The second graph illustrates one measure of  verapamil's therapeutic effect, measured in PR interval.  Please note that this is not the therapeutic effect that prevents CH.  It's just an example.

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In electrocardiography, the PR interval is the period, measured in milliseconds, that extends from the beginning of the P wave (the onset of atrial depolarization) until the beginning of the QRS complex (the onset of ventricular depolarization); it is normally between 120 and 200ms in duration.  See graphic below:

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In this case, verapamil increases the PR interval which slows the heart's pulse rate and this lowers the blood pressure, one of verapamil's therapeutic effects.

The actual mechanism of action of verapamil in preventing CH remains unknown, but likely deals with its capacity as a calcium channel blocker which causes the smooth muscles lining arteries and capillaries to relax. This helps stop or slow the rapid vasodilation associated with the pain phase of CH.

As illustrated above, it takes it takes roughly an hour and a half for verapamil to reach peak plasma concentration after oral administration. It is metabolized in the liver to at least 12 inactive metabolites (though one metabolite, norverapamil, retains 20% of the vasodilating activity of the parent drug).

So, after this long-winded epistle, the simple answer to your question is there's a dose response relationship for verapamil in preventing CH.  As there are considerable variations between CH'ers in terms of preventative response at any given dose of verapamil, it's always best to titrate up in dose to find the lowest effective dose of verapamil in preventing CH.

Your practice of taking verapamil in the evening as it results in the best CH preventative effect is sound... and supported by plots of serum Cmax and Tmax for verapamil illustrated in the first graphic.

Now for the rest of the story as Paul Harvey used to say...  Verapamil, even at relatively low doses (120 mg/day), results in arrhythmia in roughly 20% of the CH'ers who take it to prevent CH.  That makes having an EKG prior to starting verapamil to establish a baseline and periodic EKGs (3 month intervals) during the first year of use a very good idea...

Please understand...  I'm not a doctor or a nutritionist...  I'm just a cranky 71 year old fighter pilot with a bee in his bonnet trying to introduce CH'ers to an effective, lasting and healthy method of preventing their CH... 

In order to do this with any credibility, I've gone back to school (make that home schooling) over the last five years, to learn how and why vitamin D3 is so effective in preventing CH.  The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of vitamin D3 (and other pharmaceuticals used to prevent CH) were two of the courses...

I'll leave you with a parting thought... 

In the history of modern medicine, medical scientists have yet to discover a medical condition caused by the lack of a pharmaceutical agent that wasn't already found naturally in the human body...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Feb 8th, 2016 at 4:08pm
Batch,

Yesterday I started on a 5-day dose of Azithromycin antibiotics for an infection. What is your recommendation on the probiotics that I should start taking? I'm stuck between the 50billion live cultures and the 100billion live cultures.

Thanks so much,
Andy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 8th, 2016 at 10:08pm
Hey Andy,

Good question.  I doubt there's an answer backed by irrefutable medical evidence as to the benefits of taking a probiotic while taking an antibiotic, let alone the effect of dose escalation.

In my experience and that of some real experts on maintaining a happy gut, i.e., a healthy microbiome of symbiotic colonies of  biota in the GI tract, maintaining this GI tract ecosystem is a basic step in maintaining good health... even while taking an antibiotic... 

Moreover, the evidence is building even among researchers reporting in neurological journals like Neurology, that maintaining a healthy microbiome has positive implications in several autoimmune disorders.

Sooo... with the above as an a backdrop, I'm inclined to think more is better.  I take Nature's Bounty Advanced Probiotic 10 with 20 billion live probiotic cultures in two capsules. 

So far, no problems... and I've taken this probiotic while dosing on PenVK at high doses in advance of, and following oral surgery for removal of a smart tooth that had been with me for over 60 years...

I also bumped my vitamin D3 intake to 50,000 IU/day following the oral surgery for a week as there was evidence of a root infection. 

The reason for the loading dose of vitamin D3 is simple... Infections trigger an immune response that sucks up vitamin D3 and it's metabolites like there was no tomorrow... and this creates a competition that can leave insufficient levels of vitamin D3 to prevent CH.

Go for it... and please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lagoon on Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:38am
Hi Batch,

Hope you doing great.
I suffer from chronic headaches which in severe form sometimes resemble cluster headache.A neurologist said that I have cluster headache,other diagnosed me for migraines and another said that I suffer from both  ;D
I have been getting headaches for the past 5 years(15+ a month) with no remission in between, which are sometimes normal and sometimes very severe.
Took MRI scans twice and had no abnormality in results.I have tried various pharmaceutical treatments such as verapamil,topiramate,propanalol.Had success with them as long as I took them until side effects manifested.Also tried homeopathic and naturopathy treatment with little success.
Currently taking 80mg propanalol and 10mg amitriptyline per day and have received some relief in terms of reduction in intensity and duration of headache only.

Do you believe that I could benefit from your anti-inflammatory D3 regimen? If yes,then please suggest me the right method to take this regimen.

Regards,
Lagoon

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:17am
I wanted to report that after 2 weeks of 30K IU D3 dosing my headaches have subsided.  Shortest cycle I've ever had.  Who'da thought that vitamins and O2 can contain this ugliness!  It's like a miracle.

Also wanted to share this fascinating link from Dr. Mercola:  "Documentary Sheds Light on the Benefits of Vitamins" with a preview of "That Vitamin Movie" available to stream through 2/26: but I'm not allowed to post a link (since I'm here so infrequently due to the efficacy of the anti-inflammatory regimen!), so please search on mercola dot com.  You will enjoy it.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:52am
Hi Southerncluster,
it is great news that your cycle has been so short and that you are Pain Free.
It seems that Batch's D3 regimen has worked for you too, GREAT.

Hi Lagoon,

I am guessing that Batch's D3 regimen is very likely to be of benefit to you too. Batch's wife is getting relief from migraines with the D3 regimen, if I remember well, she is Pain Free (PF).
I'm sure he'll let you know himself when he gets a chance, you'll be getting thebest info from the man himself.

All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by lagoon on Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:27am
Hi Thierry,

Thanks for informing me.I hope to hear from batch also.
Really need relief from this condition man.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:46am
Hi Lagoon,
until you get the full lowdown on the D3 regimen from Batch, you could get yourself some Vitamin D3 in high potency,
something like this one

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or this one

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One of these is 5000iu/softgel, the other is 10000iu/softgel

you'll also need around 400 to 600 mg of magnesium
either magnesium malate or magnesium citrate

something like this

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For 2 to 3 days you could take 50000iu D3 in softgel form and let them melt in the corner of your mouth and take 6oomg magnesium each day.

You may be able to get yourself the D3 in high potency and the magnesium in a store near you.
Batch gets his in Costco.
If you can' t find the magnesium, take the D3 on it's own.

This has the potential of reducing the intensity of an attack until you get yourself on the full regimen.

Like I said, Batch is the creator of the regimen and the best person  to advise you on this.

All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 3:30pm
Went for my D3 & Calcium levels today.  Looking forward to getting back the results.  This is the 3rd week on the regimen and the last day of my 2nd pred taper.  Fingers crossed!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 8:34am
Hi Batch - got the results back:

Calcium 9.25
Vitamin D 62.6

I've been taking 20-30,000/IU daily for about 3 weeks. Occasionally higher doses a few times a week. Also been on Predisone for a while if that helps explain the level given my dose.

62 seems low given those daily doses. If I'm shooting for 80 mg/NL I guess I have to up it.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 3:40pm
Joshua,

Yuppers...  Your 25(OH)D is still too low at 62 ng/mL for a lasting pain free response to this regimen...  Did they measure your PTH?  Are you taking all the co-factors at the suggested doses? 

Howz the head?  If you're still on a pred taper and obtaining oxygen, it would appear the beast is still making house calls. If I'm correct, has there been any change in the frequency of your CH since starting this regimen?

Have you tried taking Benadryl (Diphenhydramine)?  An allergic reaction causes a flood of histamine that makes nearly all forms of CH intervention less effective... if effective at all.  Diphenhydramine is a first generation antihistamine that crosses the blood brain barrier to block H1 histamine receptors on neurons throughout the brain.  Second- and third-generation antihistamines cannot do this so will not be effective for CHers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen.

When the big pollen fall started last March and the CH beast started jumping ugly, I loaded at 50,000 IU for nearly a week then decided it was time to treat the allergy that was obvious from the first day...   I took 25 mg of Diphenhydramine every 12 hours and was again pain free by the second day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 9:42pm
I forgot to get the PTH!  Will go back in a few weeks.  I am taking the co factors (500mg Mg, B-50, Fish Oil) - but I am not taking Benedryl.  I will add one at night, I can't take one during the day as they knock me out.

Does it matter when I take it relative to other items?

I'll continue the D3 loading and take another test in a few weeks. I'm hoping the 62 is a number I'm hitting on the way UP after 3 weeks of the regimen.

Thanks Batch!



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 4th, 2016 at 12:29am
Hey Joshua,

If I need to drive, I take the Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) in the late afternoon or evening when I'm done driving for the day.

There are a lot of factors affecting the 25(OH)D response to dose of vitamin D3 including variability between individuals.  Weigh and BMI are the primary factors, but any inflammation or an immune system response can both gobble up serum vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D at high rates.

It appears you're on the right path so it may be just a matter of time before you experience a complete cessation of CH symptoms.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 8th, 2016 at 7:01am
I've added the Benedryl to my daily regimen.  I take 1 pill (25 mg) before bed. I also upped my daily D3 to 50,000 / IU as suggested.  I started this two days ago. I changed the timing of the Verapamil. 

Yesterday was my first pain free day in months (apart from being on prednisone)  :)

Fingers crossed it continues, but it's a positive sign nonetheless.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 8th, 2016 at 2:51pm
Joshua,

A pain free day is a good sign of things to come... I like seeing comments like this.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 8th, 2016 at 3:14pm
Thanks!  Day 2, and I've already missed by 9am CH.  I have had some shadows on and off most of the day, but the beast hasn't taken hold. 

More to come!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 10th, 2016 at 8:37am
Ok - just logging the results of my D3 for all to see.  Today is day 4 - pain free! Some shadows, but the beast never takes hold, and the shadows are lessening since yesterday.

It's almost too much to believe.  The skeptic in me wants to say the Verapamil is kicking in, or that since the warmer weather is here and the seasonal change is almost at an end, that that's why I'm feeling better.  But the truth is I started to see results after I upped my D3 dose - so..... not much else to say other than I'm grateful to Batch and this group for solutions and being there.




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 15th, 2016 at 7:07am
The CH returned over the weekend after 5 PF days.  I was hit both Saturday and Sunday multiple times.  Monday, PF again, just shadows.  DST weekend, too, for what it's worth.

I saw a great new neuro (HA specialist) in NYC who took a complete history and spent about an hour with me.  She was interested in the D3 regimen but didn't say much other than to say keep on taking it if I think it's helping.  She also ordered some thyroid panels and an MRI with contrast to check any anomalies on my pituitary, which she said some research has shown can cause CH as a secondary presentation of that in some cases.  She encouraged me to use O2 as primary abort, which is good. She also prescribed thorazine, which she said some of her cluster patients have used at night to abort if caught at the beginning.  She said thorazine was "good" because it can give one a break from triptans if they are getting lots of hits and it has a "good" working relationship with them, biologically.

Anyway, I remain PF so far today and on the D3 regimen with Verap.  Will see what any of the tests / scans show. 


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jon019 on Mar 15th, 2016 at 12:19pm
Wow...thorazine?...Bob can you cite any studies?

I know a pharmacist who used to work at a state mental hospital...thorazine was considered the "big hammer" and they had a saying about it....not exactly professional...but he swore it was true: If a patient could tolerate it...he was crazy enough to need it!

Maybe clusterheads qualify...I know I'm not normal  ::)

Keep us informed Joshua...there's always dips in the road..... but it looks like you're on the right one.

Best

Jon

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on Mar 15th, 2016 at 3:36pm
I haven't picked up the thorazine, I tend to shy away from things that I think I may enjoy too much :) -- but yes, I do feel like I'm on the right path.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 15th, 2016 at 3:38pm
Hey Joshua,

Data from the online survey of CHers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent their CH indicate 10% will experience an initial 3 to 5 days of pain free response followed by a recurrence of CH symptoms.  However, with continued use, these CH symptoms dissipate and the CHer is again pain free.

I'm not sure why this happens, but suspect it has to do with the production of enzymes within brain cells needed to hydroxylate vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D and on to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), the active hormonal metabolite of vitamin D3.  Once this enzyme production stabilizes, brain cells are able to hydroxylate sufficient calcitriol to maintain the genetic expression that prevents CH.

Regarding Chlorpromazine (Thorazine)...  I'd be very cautious.  It acts on so many neurogenic receptors with so many different adverse side effects, it is often referred to as a "dirty drug". 

It's also the drug you see administered to psychiatric patients who become agitated or combative to "Knock them out."  If you watched the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or Terminator 2: Judgment Day you saw it administered.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Mar 24th, 2016 at 2:49am
Hi Batch and team
I hope you are well and feeling p/f.  I have been in my p/f phase since last May/June.  Unfortunately my cycle has started 2 weeks ago, gradually getting worse.  Last night was my single worst night of my life.  I had never had a true kip 10 before, but I believe I have now.  Your advice helped me prevent it get that bad in the 3 subsequent headaches last night, I just had to get aggressive with it, doing the squats as I exhaled entirely and really sucking as much O2 in as I could at 15L/min.  I am really confused I have not experienced it as bad as that before, I am taking the first gen a to histamine (Nytol in the UK) but have been doing so for 2 weeks.  Have ordered the blood tests to see where I am with my serum levels, have upped my dosage, but will take the advice and increase magnesium intake.  It just seems so strange that the HA is so bloody strong.  I have been really tired as we approach the end of the school term, but that has not seemed to have such an effect before.  It is interesting to read that many are breaking through at the moment.

Confused and hurting Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Mar 24th, 2016 at 2:51am
Sorry I should I have bad mouth ulcers as well.
Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Mar 24th, 2016 at 4:21am
Ian wrote, Sorry I should I have bad mouth ulcers as well.

Swilling some warm salty water a couple of times around the mouth for a minute or so before spitting it out normally clears them up.

Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 24th, 2016 at 5:36am
Radar63,

Sorry to hear you're in pain.

In my experience mouth ulcers are a sign of being run down. Can I suggest that you ask the Doc to measure your Iron levels as well. This might explain the tiredness.

In addition the Spring Equinox is on Saturday, so it could be a number of things coming together.

Do you take Vit C with the D3 Regimen?

Best,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Michael63 on Mar 24th, 2016 at 12:24pm
Day 13 of the D3 loading dosage of 50,000iu and all the co factors. I have been using Batch's recommendation for the 2 week loading dose.  After 6 days I had 3 days PF, then, a few days back to pleasing the demon. The attacks were not as painful as previously. I get a shadow but the daytime attacks have all but disappeared.

Question is, after I achieve the two week loading dosage, is it prudent to keep the 50,000iu going for another week or so.  I am scheduled for blood work next week to attain my 25(OH)D. When I started the therapy regimen, it was 30 so I am hoping to get somewhere close to the 80 that seems to be the magic number.

Is there a problem continuing the 50,000 further?

After reading many of the posts on the D3 regimen, my results seem normal, as far as reoccurrence of pain.

So far, I am pleased.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Mar 24th, 2016 at 4:56pm
hoppy and Peter,
Thank you I will try that.  I do take a vit C supplement as well each day.
P/F days to you all.
Ian

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Mar 24th, 2016 at 5:32pm
Hi Michael,
Maybe try just taking 10000iu/day, and see how you go.

Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 25th, 2016 at 3:33am
Michael,

We all respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen differently.  Some are lucky and experience a pain free response within the first 24 hours... Others can take up to a month or more to achieve a pain free response.

The total loading dose is 600,000 IU of vitamin D3.  If you've take that much at this point, drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day for another couple weeks to allow your 25(OH)D to reach a stable equilibrium then go in for labs of your serum 25(OH)D, total calcium and PTH.

We're looking for a 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ± 10 ng/mL, total calcium within its normal reference range and PTH near it's lower limit.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MGP59DB on Apr 10th, 2016 at 8:13am
I will also post here .
I just read thru a lot of this thread .
There is plenty of good information here .
I just want to say that I have responded very well to this D3 regimen . First time I have been PF for a week in the last 5 years .
Simply by taking Fishoil and D3 without a loading dose or serum checks.
Everyones metabolism is different , I have only been supplementing the D3 for 14 days and have been without an episode for 10 .
I was having chronic problems . Verapamil was helping but I don't believe it was addressing the root cause .
I hope this continues to work for me and the overall benefits of the regimen are far better than the pitfalls of other Meds I have tried.
Thanks to Batch for continuing to provide information to fellow sufferers .
Frankly I think this needs to be on the front page of every medical magazine in the country!
I will continue with this and tweek what I need to , I found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!
 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 10th, 2016 at 11:44am
Hi MGP, what a great pleasure to read your post and hearing that you too are pain free.
Batch's relentless work has helped many of us.
Are you not taking the other co-factors included in the regimen?
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MGP59DB on Apr 10th, 2016 at 7:37pm
No , I have not taken the other co-factors .
But I plan to use the full regimen and will pick up the other things tomorrow after work.
I do have some shadows poking around - but it is like muscle memory . I have had this pain for so long my body is almost like reaching for the pain that is not there . It misses its old friend ...but I do not.
I took a nice long nap today  :)  woke up refreshed and pain free . That has not been the case for at least 2 years , I only took a nap expecting to wake in an hour with a big head ache.
My body needed something it wasn't getting naturally . And this is it .
I still cannot believe that 2 Neurologists , an ENT , 2 PCPs , and 3 Dentists among others did not mention the possibility of a Vit D deficiency.
When the Medical field is more interested in $ than in peoples well being , the world is in trouble , and we are in trouble.
Two and a half weeks ago a PCP told me that I can try it but doubts that it will help and shrugged. He did write me a script for Oxogen Therapy , a nice place down the road (affiliated with the hospital) would be happy to set me up with all the nice expensive equipment . 
I have printed out the protocol and will throw it on his desk with the bill he gives me for a useless visit.
At this point , this week I am cutting my Verapamil in half . and if I have no ill effect I will reduce it even more .
I may be jumping the gun on this a bit , but after all the junk I have put into my body trying to get some relief and all the costs of these drugs that screwed up my head and body to no avail . I am mad at the whole system .
Gabapenton , Tramadol , Verapamil , Carbamazapine , Shooting saltwater thru my nasal passages , Steroids , I probably screwed up myself more by listening to Drs , I feel like a cash cow that was passed around the whole towns medical community.
In the end it was the VA who gave me the right Diagnosis and then they passed me thru their money Filters . 3 MRIs -CTscans - TMJ xrays - Neurologists etc. all at the taxpayers expense .
In the end it was my stupidity for not listening to this earlier and I caused myself another year of pain .
Sometimes the simplest solution is the right one. It all makes sense to me now .
Sorry I got off on a rant , I should be happy.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 11th, 2016 at 12:12am
Hi MG,
Rant as much as you like, after reading your post, you have more than enough reasons to be mad at the medical system.  Wishing you pain free years ahead.

Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 11th, 2016 at 1:05am
Hey MGP,

I share your frustration that more neurology and headache journals are not covering the obvious relationship between cluster headache and a vitamin D3 deficiency.

Moreover, if that relationship attracts interest, then the fact that taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, Omega-3 fatty acids and the vitamin D3 co-factors to treat that deficiency is also a very effective cluster headache prophylactic, should deserve front page billing...

Making progress on such an article has been a slow uphill battle.  I managed to get an abstract of results from the online survey of 110 CHers (190 as of 3 March 2016) taking this regimen to prevent their CH published in the American Academy of Neurology's journal Neurology at the following link: START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

I was also invited to make a poster presentation at the 2014 AAN Annual Meeting in Philadelphia, PA in April of 2014.  The poster presentation was well received and I've had a few neurologists start suggesting this regimen since then.

We face two major problems going forward with more articles like this.  The first is obvious... no gold standard RCTs using vitamin D3 at a dose of 10,000 IU/day as the intervention for cluster headache.  Even if such an RCT were possible, funding will be a problem and it's doubtful there would be sufficient participation to power such a study.

In addition, there is also a clear and present bias against treating a wide variety of medical conditions with vitamin D3 at therapeutic doses.  Part of that bias is either built into the curriculum with disinformation about vitamin D3 or courses in vitamin D3 therapy are absent at nearly every contemporary medical school.

This bias is widespread frequently taking the form of fear mongering articles warning against the “dangers” of taking pharmacological doses of vitamin D3. 

This bias also takes the form of opposition research as evidenced by the number of studies concluding U-shaped, J-shaped and reverse J-shaped mortality curves associated with increasing doses of vitamin D3 and resulting higher 25(OH)D serum concentrations. 

An author of one of these opposition research studies had a clear conflict of interest being employed by several large Pharmaceutical firms.

This is all very disconcerting when you consider the fact that the FDA Adverse Event Reporting System (FAERS), has yet to report a single death attributed to vitamin D3. 

In the mean time, providing outreach with information about the effectiveness of the anti-inflammatory regimen here at CH.com and Clusterbusters is paying off.  It has attracted an estimated 500 CHers to this regimen since December of 2010.  Many like you who are amazed at the simplicity and effectiveness of vitamin D3 as a CH preventative.

I'm also working on a paper titled: Why Most Clinical Trials Listing Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) as the Intervention, Fail to Conclude Improved Clinical Outcomes Favoring the Benefits of Vitamin D3.  It's based in part on a survey of RCTs and CTs registered in clinicaltrials.gov.

The good news is there have been 760 RCTs, CTs and OS listing vitamin D3, (Cholecalciferol), as the intervention registered in clinicaltrials.gov between 01/01/2000 and 12/07/2015.  730 of these studies have been registered since January of 2005.  380 of the 760 studies are listed as completed and 60 are listed as having results.

The following chart provides a early look at some of the results.

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The other good news as the above chart illustrates, is the vitamin D3 genie is out of the bottle...

I hope to have this paper published later this summer.

Take care and hang in there.  It's posts like yours that help attract more CHers to this regimen.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MGP59DB on Apr 11th, 2016 at 6:13pm
Ha Ha , I came back to this today expecting to hear some less than favorable responses to my little rant .
I actually did have a couple of little problems overnight , I mean I woke up with just a minor hurt that faded within five minutes when I sat up . I did get the other co-factors today and will set up a different schedule to take these with a meal . As I have been doing it in the morning when I eat very little food until 4-5 hours later . I need to shift it over to when I get home from work for convenience and because I always make a good meal then .
It also could be that I have dropped from 480mg of Verapamil to 240mg yesterday.
Plus the weather factor. I will give myself a chance to level off for a few weeks .
I am going to be doing a total of 17K D3 for the next two weeks , then drop to 12K maintenance with the other co-factors .
I will keep you informed.

Edit: Like I was saying before , I see the wisdom in this protocol now . And why it has made such an effect on me personally . I live in a Northern geographic location with little sun in the winter . I have lived in the sunny regions for a lot of years . I now work indoors as opposed to out of doors . I tend to spend a lot of time in the sun during the summers here working in my gardens and such . Explains why things tend to be better during the summer months.
I did have an injury to the left side of my head quite a few years back . That is where the pain is .

Verapamil did help me a lot , it made the episodes shorter and less frequent , my concern is what it is doing to the rest of my body that doesn't need it. As with all of the other Meds that fixated on the entire nervous system not just the painful areas.
Like it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to prescribe a Med. that lists increased suicidal tendencies as a side effect to someone who has the 'Suicide' headache syndrome. ??

I don't know if this will fix it or stop it , but so far it looks good and I like the fact that I can get off the stuff that is not so good for me.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MGP59DB on Apr 16th, 2016 at 8:49am
Another week gone by and more good news . So far so good . I had 1 - 8+ episode out of the blue , but heck 1 episode in 3 weeks over a level 2-3 is damn good in my book.
I will stay on this protocol !! Seems lowering the Verapamil has made little difference .
I am sleeping without incidence , that in itself is worth it .
If you are debating whether or not to give this a try , don't wait anymore , do it .
It has made a big difference in my condition .

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Michael63 on Apr 28th, 2016 at 7:12pm
Just a quick update on my experience with the D3 regimen.

Started the D3 on or about the 10th of March.  Roughly 6 weeks now.  First week was so-so as to results, but the episodes were reduced pain and frequency.  After an adjustment that I talked to Batch about, increasing the Fish Oil, things only got better.

After the first week of skepticism and continued use, I started having pain free days.  2 here, 3 there for about 2 weeks. The episodes were very minor and the ones at night only required me to sit on the bed and let my feet hang.

Time passes and into weeks 3 and 4 even the shadows are non existant.

I have been pain free now since the 10th of April.

You have a skeptic converted into a believer. 

I know there has been a lot of technical information that was put on this site, but if one follows the basics of the theories, I am confident that others will have a degree of success.

No matter, I am one happy man who is no longer afraid to go to bed.

Thank YOU everyone.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Apr 28th, 2016 at 7:30pm
Michael,

Great news.... Congrats. Now never go off the regimen.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 29th, 2016 at 2:00am
Hi Michael,
I love reading a post like yours.
Sounds just like what i would have written 3 years ago, and like many others that have started Batch''s life saving D3 regimen.
Yippie  :)
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by pattik on Apr 29th, 2016 at 12:16pm

Batch wrote on Feb 8th, 2016 at 10:08pm:

The reason for the loading dose of vitamin D3 is simple... Infections trigger an immune response that sucks up vitamin D3 and it's metabolites like there was no tomorrow... and this creates a competition that can leave insufficient levels of vitamin D3 to prevent CH.


I know it's hard to prove a negative, but I just experienced an amazing recovery from a nasty spill. Two weeks ago I tripped and hit the sidewalk hard while walking my dog--many abrasions and a contusion on a hand, and a wrenched shoulder and back (which are already in rather delicate shape). I did all the expected things, like immediate ice for swelling and antibiotic ointment and bandaids. I doubled my D3 dose to 20K and increased magnesium for four days. The speed of the healing was remarkable, and I was especially impressed with the lack of damage to my shoulder and back. There are many great side-effects to this regimen.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joshua on May 2nd, 2016 at 12:17pm
Probably my last post to this thread unless circumstances require it - BUT - been pain free since end of Feb due to D3 regimen, no doubt.

Thanks, Batch!  It took some tinkering and an extended (4 weeks) period of 50,000/IU in order to stabilize, but am now doing the once weekly load and 20k daily.  Will eventually go down to 10k probably after getting a blood test.

That's all for now!  Looking forward to providing support and encouragement for others.

Joshua

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by koctail on May 5th, 2016 at 2:37pm
I was doing some research on ways to boost my Testosterone and one of the suggestions was Vit D3. I know low T has been discussed before as potentially related to CH, so maybe Vit D3 does more than just the anti inflammatory benefits? Also flax seeds and Turmuric/Curcumin supplements were recommended. The Turmuric is an anti-inflamm. I have been taking both of these as well. Anything else naturally that may be a Testosterone booster?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 6th, 2016 at 2:13pm
Pattik, Joshua,

Thanks for the great feedback.  It's clear the health benefits of vitamin D3 go well beyond preventing CH.  Joshua, you're helping confirm what I've suspected for nearly five years... that many of the CHers who don't respond to the anti-inflammatory regimen need higher doses of vitamin D3 to achieve a CH pain free state...

If you want to read about a jaw dropping example of treating patients with a devastating autoimmune disorder like multiple sclerosis with high dose vitamin D3 and achieving a complete remission in 95% of the patients, check out the following Vitamin D Wiki link:

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Michael, I think you're on the right track trying to increase your testosterone naturally with the anti-inflammatory regimen and other supplements.  Once you understand the primary vitamin D3 mechanism of action involves genetic expression, you'll see one of the many benefits of the anti-inflammatory regimen includes testosterone production. 

Genetic expression made possible by vitamin D3 is where the active hormonal form of vitamin D3, 1,25(OH)2D3 attaches to a gene at a vitamin D3 receptor (VDR).  This unlocks the cells genetic library of instruction and the cell starts executing them. 

The resulting cellular activities include replication, differentiation, up-regulation and down-regulation of genetic products, peptides and chemical messengers, and apoptosis, programmed cell death.

With that in mind, testosterone production starts in the hypothalamus with the production of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH).  GnRH in turn stimulates the pituitary gland to produce  the luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH).  LH and FSH in turn stimulate the testis to synthesize testosterone.  This same process also works for women with the production of testosterone, estrogen and progesterone...  which is why I urge caution when couples of childbearing age go on this regimen... Fertility goes up.

None of this is possible without vitamin D3...  Zinc and vitamin A (retinol) also play essential roles in testosterone production.  Sound familiar?  After that, sleep and resistance training aid in the increased production of testosterone.

Ultimately testosterone production peaks in the late teens and stays high through age 25.  After age 25, there's a slow but steady decline in testosterone production...  The following link illustrates testosterone levels by age.

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If you think your testosterone levels are low, see an endocrinologist for a complete workup with the endocrine/hormone panel of lab tests.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 23rd, 2016 at 10:18pm
For CHers who have been on the anti-inflammatory regimen for at least a month, if you haven't already done so, please take the survey listed on page 1 of the following link. 

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Be sure to see your PCP for a 25(OH)D lab test if possible...  The 25(OH)D lab results are a very important part of the survey data.

In addition... there are nearly 100 CHers who started this survey, but never completed it.  If you fall into this category, please go back into your survey, answer as many questions as possible then click the submit button.

Many thanks,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by cc45713 on Jun 1st, 2016 at 11:02am
Hi everyone. I'm due for my next cycle in about a month and wanted to get a head start on the d3 regimen. Where can I find the latest d3 regimen guide?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jun 1st, 2016 at 11:32am
The following link should give you all you need to know to get started.

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The info you want is about half way down, updated in April 2016.

Come back with questions and keep us updated.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by adamv on Aug 9th, 2016 at 2:22pm
Greetings all, 4 year ECH sufferer looking to give the regimen a try shortly after 4 months into my latest episode.

I am curious if there is a link to currently available survey results/conclusions where I can view them?  I haven't been able to find anything more than Batch's post on the regimen itself, which I cannot tell how current nor if there's an update since the original post somewhere buried in the 22 pages of posts.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Aug 9th, 2016 at 4:28pm
Adam,

Here's the latest:

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Get started soon,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by adamv on Aug 9th, 2016 at 5:01pm
Thank you Peter, I posted a question over there regarding the B 50 course...some clarity on the original post may prove helpful to first timers like me.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Sep 8th, 2016 at 8:00pm
Wondering if anyone knows why Batch has not been on here since Aug 26th.

Judy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 9th, 2016 at 5:21am
Judy, All,

Sorry for not letting you know I was in Pelican, Alaska fishing since the 26th of August...  I drafted a post to announce my absence, but must have closed the laptop too soon after hitting the send button as it was still unsent when I returned home this evening...  Mea culpa.

Fishing at Pelican is the ultimate "getaway" for me... It's a small fish camp town an hour West of Juneau by Beaver float plane... There's no phone and no Internet access at our house, just a lot of 12 hour days fishing with dear friends, great food (fresh King Salmon, Halibut, Lingcod, Yellow Eye, deep water shrimp and a chop or two) while enjoying one of the most spectacular locations Alaska has to offer...

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I look forward to meeting as many of you as possible in Austin, TX next week.

Take care,

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Sep 9th, 2016 at 10:04am
Wow...just wow! What a perfect place to re-charge. I was just worried someone had kidnapped you! ha ha

Judy
You are forgiven..

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Can on Sep 19th, 2016 at 8:18am
My husband has been on d3 with all cofactors since April of this year, but has reached a point where he is at his wits end. Unbeknownst to me the vitamin make him incredibly sick to his stomach for the remainder of the evening (they are taken with dinner). Is there a best way to break them down into an am dose and a pm dose? Hoping that will be enough to aid his stomach...

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Rumeke on Sep 19th, 2016 at 9:50am
Until Batch chimes in..

Why not drop 1 of the co-factors each night to see if you can pin-point which is the culprit? I know for myself the multi-vitamin tore my tummy up so I dropped it.

Judy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 19th, 2016 at 11:38am
Great pics, Batch.  Looks like an amazing place.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 19th, 2016 at 2:16pm
Hey Can,

Sorry to be so slow in responding.  I'm still decompressing from the Clusterbusters conference in Austin, TX this weekend.

Judy has already given you a good start.  That said, there may be too many moving parts to your husband's problems to solve in a timely manner so please check your PM InBox.  I've left you a message.  Your PM InBox is located under the date in the upper left corner of this screen.  Click on the bold font saying "You have 1 new message"

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jon019 on Sep 19th, 2016 at 7:44pm

slacker032 wrote on Sep 19th, 2016 at 11:38am:
Great pics, Batch.  Looks like an amazing place.



It IS...and note the "shine" on these fish...when they come right out of the water...that's what they look like. Look for it in the stores/fish markets...

Also note the "hole" in the head of the Halibut (large flat white one)...that be a cheek...it is the fillet mignon of any fish... compared to the quite excellent "NY Stk" of the flesh. Seek but be careful...
a sautéed cheek...with garlic, butter, mushies, and onions will SPOIL you...my favorites are King Salmon cheeks...alas...to find them now is like winning the lottery.....rare and treasured...

I also applaud the pics Batch...and I vicariously enjoy your trips to God's country......and
the rejuvenation it must give you to continue your tireless efforts on behalf of clusterheads everywhere................

Best

Jon

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 20th, 2016 at 9:49am
Judy, Slacker, Jon,

Thanks for the kind words about my getaway fishing trip to Pelican, Alaska...  It's clear Jon knows his seafood being a Puget Sounder from Seattle holding up a rack of Opilio crab legs in his screen photo...

It wasn't all fishing...  One day after limiting out on halibut, we cruised to the Northern shore of Cross Sound and into Taylor Bay for a closer look at Brady Glacier with Mt Fairweather in the background.
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No evidence of global warming there...  The water in Taylor Bay looked more like milk with all the glacial silt...

We also took a day to frame a new shed on the side of the house to cover the deck and a second day to add the metal roof.
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The day before we flew South, we pulled the Susan K out for the winter, gave her a good freshwater scrub, cleaned the hull, serviced the outboards and hauled the batteries back to the house.

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The morning of our final day was spent winterizing the house... cutting the 220 to the hot water heater, draining all the pipes, adding RV Antifreeze, and wrapping up the golf cart that we use to make the quarter mile trek to floats where the Susan K is moored.

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I'm already counting the days until next May when we fly North to Pelican to start the 2017 fishing season...  At 72, there is an expiration date somewhere ahead... so I plan to do this as long as I'm able...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Sep 20th, 2016 at 10:50am
Hey Batch,

Great post & pics.

72 is young. Dad was 84 and played golf every week up to a couple of weeks before he passed.

So rock on !!!!!!

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Sep 20th, 2016 at 12:39pm
Batch, Jon - Looks and sounds awesome.  Alaska is definitely on the bucket list for me.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ilndguy on Sep 21st, 2016 at 6:45am


    Thanks for sharing these great pictures. It looks awesome.

   
     Jealous

     Ilndguy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Sep 21st, 2016 at 7:44am
WOW Batch, that trip sounds and looks amazing.
Is there room for 1 more next year?
All the best :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by theydontunderstand on Sep 23rd, 2016 at 7:36pm
It's been a little over a year since I posted here and had to come back to say thank you Batch. The information you have provided here has made an immeasurable difference in the quality of my life.

I am about 10 days into cycle but this time it's different. I no longer have the fear, dread and depression that is associated with this affliction. I now have the tools to deal with it.

Again, thank you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Oct 4th, 2016 at 3:41am
Wow Batch, that makes my fishing trips look pretty lame!!

Anyway, question for you all.

I was recently recommended by my Chiropractor that I take Turmeric to help with some back/muscle pain. I did some research and made up some 'Golden Paste'. The only thing is that it is also an anti-inflammatory and I don't want it to cause any issues with the D3 regimen.

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Anyone else have any experience of this at all?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 4th, 2016 at 11:32am
Hey Chuffy,

Go for it!  Curcumin is the anti-inflammatory component of Turmeric so given the choice, I'd pickup and use curcumin.

Curcumin is also one of my hole card supplements to suggest when CHers are still having problems preventing their CH with serum 25(OH)D up around 80 ng/mL and above and a week of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) has no effect. 

You can read this as curcumin can be added to the anti-inflammatory regimen to help increase the anti-inflammatory effect without any problems. 

I've a long time friend who battled with prostate cancer.  He's been taking curcumin for the last 5 years and claims it has helped keep him cancer free.   He did a lot of research on curcumin doses and found 400 mg/day was optimum for him and further added he takes it with a spoonful of extra virgin coconut oil to aid in absorption.  He also suggests taking it with a meal as that much curcumin is equal to a couple curry dinners.

I just checked clinicaltrials.gov and there are 131 studies listed with curcumin listed as the intervention since 2000.  58 of these studies have been completed.  I've check a number of the completed studies and found that curcumin therapy was well tolerated with no problems noted at doses up to 12,000 mg/day (12 grams/day). 

The results in terms of primary and secondary outcome measures are good across a wide variety of medical conditions including cancers where it was listed as promising and very good for autoimmune disorders like Crohn's and Ulcerative Colitis.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Oct 4th, 2016 at 1:13pm
Hey Chuffy,
I am taking Turmeric for years, half teaspoon every evening in a bit of warm milk, i make sure it is organic turmeric powder. I' m getting it from UK from buywholefoodsonline.co.uk. In that warm milk I also put in a teaspoon of an indian herb called Ashwaganda and 1 teaspoon of Organic red maca powder.
Turmeric is a great anti inflamatory and has lots of benefits, it is suppose to help the guts and the digetive system, some people say it has cancer prevention properties. Try read up about it, you'll soon be convinced.
All the best.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Oct 4th, 2016 at 2:52pm
Thanks Batch and Thierry,

Yes I have read loads about it and am making what they call 'Golden Paste', which is basically Turmeric, Raw Coconut Oil and Black Pepper. I just wanted to check I wasn't going to over 'de-flame' as it were  ;D

Golden_Paste.jpg (100 KB | 1 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Oct 5th, 2016 at 2:01am
that's great Chuffy.
My partner is an Ayurvedic practioner, she recommends 5% black pepper mixed in to the turmeric to aid the body absorb the turmeric.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Oct 26th, 2016 at 4:10pm
By the way, are any of you folks on Facebook and if so what is it with OUCH??

The reason I ask is I was on there and joined the Ouch group and was surprised to see no mention of the D3 regimen.So I have brought the subject up a few times but usually get people that have never heard of it which is fair enough but then when I try to tell them about it I get shot down or worse still the post gets locked. It's quite frustrating when you get responses like this when you are trying to help people but unless Big Pharma are involved they are not interested. There are just endless posts of people saying the nasty stuff the Doc has put them on but as you know no-one ever gets proper relief from, I find it very frustrating.

Here is an example of two responses from a chap who just totally ignored someone else saying the regimen stopped their attacks in two weeks and just continued to berate me, the post was locked before i could reply:

Is there any science based study into the efficacy and safety of the D3 treatment regime? Has any science based study been able to replicate the claims made by 'Batch'? I'm very wary of the 'lone genius' although sometimes their discoveries are quite legitimate

I don't dispute that it has worked for you and others Rob but from a science perspective that isn't acceptable as evidence. If this regime is as effective as it is claimed to be why are there no clinical trials? Why hasn't a medical researcher picked up Batch's work and set up a funded double blind trial and submitted the results for peer review? I just don't get that at all.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Oct 26th, 2016 at 7:51pm
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That has info where a neurologist is using D3 with her patients for CH and other health issues.

Batch has worked with her.

This should help answer questions around Batch being a "lone genius". He has also presented info on D3 to neurologists, including some leading ones in the CH field.

The last time I saw my neuro, she was very eager to make sure I was using D3 until I reminded her that I'd been using it for a few years and I'd been telling her all about it.

As for a trial, what is no doubt stopping this is the usual issue around CH trials, not many people get CH and a good trial costs a serious amount to do.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on Oct 27th, 2016 at 7:36am
Thanks Mike, I have fired that back at them, see what happens.  ::)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Nov 10th, 2016 at 2:45am
Mornin Batch,

How are you?

I am wondering if i could have your opinion on these magnesiums.
It is time i stock up again.

I usually got the large tub of magnesium citrate and they work well. I take 2 tablets for 400mg

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I also sometimes get this magnesium malate but having to take 3 tablets for 425mg means that they are full of fillers

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I have seen this one from life extension and am wondering whether or not to get it

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What do you think?

All the best to you and yours  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Nov 10th, 2016 at 4:01pm
Hey Thierry,

They all look good.  As long as you're not troubled by osmotic diarrhea, I'd go for the best bang for the buck or pop for the pound.  In your case, it appears the Life Extension magnesium is the better buy.   It's also formulated with a blend of different magnesium salts, oxide, citrate, succinate, TRAACS magnesium lysyl glycinate chelate. 

I've been taking magnesium oxide liquid softgels since I switched off the calcium citrate to get more magnesium.  The brand I've used is Nature Made High Potency Magnesium 400 mg Liquid Softgel, 150 Ct

I buy it at Costco when it's on sale to get the best price.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Nov 10th, 2016 at 4:07pm
Life Extension is what I'm currently taking based on Labdoor.com's review.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Nov 10th, 2016 at 5:32pm
Hey Batch,
Thanks for your helpful and detailed reply.
I'll give the Life extension Magnesium a shot and see how i react to them.
I haven't yet suffered from osmotic diarrhea from Magnesium.
I'm feeling very healthy at the moment, am grateful for that.
Taking turmeric and probiotic every day on top of the regimen.
Thanks for everything.
All the best
Kind regards

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Nov 30th, 2016 at 11:40pm
Well! That's another Spring done and dusted without a visit from the beast, and I put it all down to the vitamin D regimen. If you haven't tried it, give it a go, because you never know.

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Dec 21st, 2016 at 2:19pm
Hi Batch,
I hope all is well with you.
I am helping a friend who suffers from migraines.
I read in your posts that your wife is now relieved from her migraines thanks to the D3 regimen so I have advised my friend to take it. She has started taking it already and has been taking 30000iu D3 + 400mg calcium + 400mg magnesium every day for the last week. She is noticing some changes in the type of pain and  intensity. She will soon be taking the full regimen when she has all the ingredients.
Do you think the levels of D3 in the body needed to become PF are the same for CH and for migraines ie:200nmol?
Do you think my friend should take 600000iu D3 in the 1st month as per your loading schedule and then stay on 10000iu?

Thank you Batch.

All the best and Happy Christmas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 10:27am
Hey Thierry,

Good question.  The 2-week and 4-week vitamin D3 loading schedules are indicated when the starting 25(OH)D serum concentration is low, typically ≤30 ng/mL.

There are other times when a 50,000 IU loading dose is needed...  An allergic reaction, surgery, trauma or some kind of infection, (viral, bacterial, fungal).

In either case, knowing the 25(OH)D serum concentration is important.

As far as taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent migraine... it should work "as is"... assuming all the cofactors and the 3-month course of vitamin B 50 are taken and there are no comorbid conditions. 

A comorbid condition could be an allergic reaction, surgery, trauma or some kind of infection, (viral, bacterial, fungal).  It could also be Type 2 Diabetes or one of the metabolic disorders.

If any of these comorbid conditions are present, the basic anti-inflammatory regimen will need some assistance: 

A week of 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3, 25 to 50 mg/day Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL), Curcumin (500 mg/day) and vitamin C (1000 mg every 2 hours throughout the day),

Finally there's Coenzyme Q10 or CoQ10.  ~300 mg/day should be sufficient. 

Dr. Peter Sándor, MD, a neurologist in Switzerland lead an RCT using CoQ10 as a migraine prophylaxis...

Abstract

We compared CoQ10 (3 × 100 mg/day) and placebo in 42 migraine patients in a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial. CoQ10 was superior to placebo for attack-frequency, headache-days and days-with-nausea in the third treatment month and well tolerated; 50%-responder-rate for attack frequency was 14.4% for placebo and 47.6% for CoQ10 (number-needed-to-treat: 3). CoQ10 is efficacious and well tolerated.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 5:42am
Hi Batch, thank you for your detailed reply and the continuing help that you so freely give.
My friend told me last night that she feels she is getting high from the D3.
I learned from her only yesterday that she is taking a herbal anti-depressant and cymbalta (anti depressant).
I am not sure what, if anything, the D3 regimen can do in conjunction with the tablets she is taking.
However she could not get to sleep and felt high. She puts it down to the D3 regimen. I informed her that I do not know of the interactions with these types of drugs and that she should either consult a GP or join this site to read around and inform herself further.
All the best

Happy Christmas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:04am
Hey Thierry,

Drugs.com lists a "minor" interaction between calcium/vitamin D3 and Cymbalta, but nothing clinically significant.

That said, anything is possible when taking a potent heterocyclic antidepressant like Duloxetine (Cymbalta).  Cymbalta has a number of side effects as well as debilitating withdrawal symptoms, including brain zaps... intense and painful sensations that cloud mental clarity and leave them with shakes, nausea and headaches.

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I'm not a doctor... but I would sure try to taper off Cymbalta...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by fiftyamp on Jan 3rd, 2017 at 11:40pm
Hi Batch,

I was wondering what the current recommended regiment is?  There's so many pages to look through!  I've been taking the VD3 regime for about 4yrs, and it's extended my time between cycles from a year to about 18 months, and decreased the number of attacks by about half.  The addition of the Benedryl also helped end my cycle last year.  I'm starting to feel the pings of shadows, and would like to see what the best dosage is , as I know there's always new info!  Thank you for everything you do!  Gold rings on ya!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 6th, 2017 at 6:54am
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Peter

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kyle N. on Jan 19th, 2017 at 3:06pm
I have read and heard from a pharmacist that the body does not absorb MK-4, so I've just been taking the MK-7.  Will that suffice?  Also, I've just been eating carrots and drinking V-8 to get my Vitamin A rather than taking any supplements.  Shouldn't this be adequate?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jan 19th, 2017 at 4:00pm
Kyle,

Welcome. MK7 is perfect. The answer to your Vitamin A question depends on how much you're taking in.

Have a look down through the link I posted in my last post on this thread. It shows you in part 2 exactly what supplements to buy.

Keep us posted on your progress because it helps us all to share info and experience.

Best,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Kyle N. on Jan 19th, 2017 at 11:40pm
Awesome, thank you so much for the reply. For some reason the vitamin store I was at didn't have retinol available under 10,000 IU and I didn't want to overdo it. I'll follow your advice, and I'll definitely post again to share how it goes. Thanks again!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clustermom on Jan 24th, 2017 at 9:26pm
It's been a while for me. Hello everyone.
We received my sons blood work for his D and it's high. At 125. What should we do? Stop taking it? I need help please.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 25th, 2017 at 2:35am
Hey Clustermom,

Good question...  I'm assuming your son's lab for 25(OH)D is 125 ng/mL.  The units of measure are very important as 125 nmol/L would be too low to prevent CH...

The short answer is your son should drop the vitamin D3 dose to 5,000 IU/day until he can obtain lab tests of his serum total calcium and Parathyroid Hormone (PTH). 

If his serum total calcium is within its normal reference range of 8.5 to 10.5 mg/dL, his present 25(OH)D serum concentration of 125 ng/mL is not a problem.  His PTH should be in the lower half of its normal reference range of 17 to 70 pg/mL, or roughly 22 to 35 pg/mL.

The 25(OH)D serum concentration is not an indication of vitamin D intoxication/toxicity.  The real indication someone has been taking too much vitamin D3 for too long a period of time is their serum total calcium concentration will rise above its normal reference range > 85 mg/dL. 

This condition is called hypercalcemia (too much serum calcium.  It is also called hypervitaminosis D or vitamin D3 toxicity.  If that's the case, your son needs to stop taking vitamin D3 for a month, but continue taking the vitamin D3 cofactos: Magnesium, zinc, boron, vitamin A (retinol) and vitamin K2. 

At the end of the 30 days without vitamin D3, have your son tested again for his serum 25(OH)D, total calcium and PTH.  If his total calcium is back within its normal reference range your sun can resume vitamin D3 intake but at a lower dose than he was previously taking.

The questions at this point are what is his cluster headache status and how much vitamin D3 has he been taking during the month prior to the blood draw for his 25(OH)D lab test?

As a side note, I ran my 25(OH)D serum concentration up around 170 ng/mL in the spring of 2015 during an exceptionally heavy pollen fall.  I'd been taking 20,000  IU for a few weeks and during the week prior to my 25(OH)D lab test, I was taking 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  I also had labs for my total calcium and PTH.

My total calcium was comfortably within its normal reference range so my PCP, who had a copy of the anti-inflammatory regimen treatment protocol, wasn't overly concerned...  His only comment was "You're running a little hot on the vitamin D3 intake."

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clustermom on Jan 25th, 2017 at 7:47am
Yes it was 125 no/ml. He has been taking all the cofactors. This is the first episode in 2 years. He started getting ch Dec. 5th and so he did a 30,000 iu loading dose one day then 10,000 iu every day. Only a week ago we started the cofactors.
We found the cluster headache group on Facebook (love it) and they suggested the Life Extension website for blood. We didn't do a full work up just a hydroxyl D blood test. His ch are 4 days gone (he's episodic) hopefully for good. They get lighter towards the end, that's how we know the beast is leaving. So I guess we need a full work up on blood? Then in a month another D?  Thank you so much

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 25th, 2017 at 9:18am
Hey Clustermom,

Great news your son is CH pain free.  I don't do facebook so I'm not sure what that group is putting out.  I've had a few CHers tell me the facebook group may not understand the importance of taking the cofactors.  Vitamin D3 is NOT a monotherapy.  Vitamin D3 cofactors must be taken when the vitamin D3 dose is ≥10,000.

If I were episodic, (I'm a chronic CHer so take this regimen daily/365) I would stay on this regimen year round.  That way I wouldn't need to guess when to ramp up my 25(OH)D in time for the next episodic cycle... that may decide to come early...

The health benefits of this regimen are so great I have my entire family and many friends taking it year round.  At 50 cents a day it is the least expensive insurance for a healthy life.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Clustermom on Jan 25th, 2017 at 10:12am
Thanks Batch. They sing your praises! they gave me the cofactors there and had a video of the D3 regimen from a conference. We are ordering a complete blood work now. he will be excited. lol. Also how often should we do the hyproxy d3 test? Just until he is level?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jan 25th, 2017 at 12:28pm
I'd test for 25(OH)D at 3 months, 6 months and 12 months from start of regimen during the first year as long as the vitamin D3 dose is stable.  Once a year after that is more than sufficient.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by jtuck on Feb 8th, 2017 at 9:40am
Hey Batch,
I hope this post finds you in excellent spirits, sir! I'm working on a book about cluster headache, and was wondering if you would mind elucidating for me the mechanism by which your fine anti-inflammatory regimen works. I've been trying to avoid taxing your time by contacting you directly, but after spending several hours pouring through various forums on this site and others, I've still not found the information that I need. In my understanding of CH pathology, vasodilation alone cannot fully explain the disease's pain, as evidenced by RCCH patients who have had complete trigeminal root section yet continue to experience attack. Is the benefit of your regimen solely anti-inflammatory? Or are their other, secondary benefits? Thanks in advance for your time, and if this information has already been published, I apologize.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by anubis44 on Feb 9th, 2017 at 10:17am
Hi all. After about a year of PF, I'm on here to report that I had an allergic response to something in a supplement that I was taking (still haven't isolated the exact ingredient in it - possibly it contains sildenafil (re: viagara?), which I also know is quite capable of giving me a CH) called 'Libido', which is supposed to help your body boost its testosterone production. The allergic response actually gave me a rash, and also, you guessed it, produced a brief cluster cycle.

This is extremely interesting, because, as Batch points out in this thread, allergic (ie. histamine response) is a potential trigger for CH. What's noteworthy to me, as a former chronic CH'er, is that a histamine response can produce a mini-cycle over two-three days, which I'm only able to break with enough antihistamine (the D3 regimen+an NSAID were insufficient alone). This lends credibility to the possibility that CH may be a condition whereby your body's histamine response mechanism is triggered on the circadian rhythm by something in your body (and in turn, produces inflammation) OR by an actual allergen that simply produces a histamine response. There's inflammation, to be sure, but the inflammation is caused specifically by a histamine response. It's just that in the case of a CH'er, that inflammation happens to press against (crush?) the tri-geminal nerve? In any case, I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to understanding CH, as I can now stop and start the CH's at will if I take a sildenafil or a 'Libido' (starts a cluster), benadryl+D3+NSAID (stops the cycle).

The question of how/why CH's happen in longer clusters may have to do with a histamine response being triggered by something produced within you body, on the circadian rhythm, rather than an external allergen (something you eat/breath in, etc.) Something to consider. So, same mechanism of action (histamine response causing COX2 production ---> inflammation), but a different trigger/catalyst. Now we have to figure out what could be this trigger/catalyst! We're going to nail this disease to the wall if it takes until my breath!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by anubis44 on Feb 9th, 2017 at 11:15am
Batch, just read your response to 'Bug' (after posting the previous message here) on his new thread 'Re: Back Again after 3 PF years...Lessons Learned?' and realized that you've made huge progress in understanding how allergens trigger CH! Therefore, I'll paste my response on that thread here, too.
----------------------------------------------------
Batch! This is all excellent information in this thread! I just posted to your main thread about having an allergic reaction which restarted my CHs, and I had been positing that >>something<< can trigger the histamine response without an outside allergen being present, and here you have already addressed this! You're amazing!

"...you'll see there's a logical reason to say the circular CGRP - Histamine chain reaction likely takes place without being triggered by an allergic reaction.  Mast cell degranulation and release of histamine triggered by CGRP could easily explain the rapid spike in pain level during most CH."

Thank you once again for all your research and hard work on CH! I'm going to study the CGRP chain reaction in as much detail as I can! The next question I want answered is, in the absence of an allergen as the trigger, why does the Mast cell degranulation happen essentially on the circadian rhythm during a CH cycle? Why does this happen approximately every 12 or 24 hours?!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Mar 5th, 2017 at 11:18am
Hi,
About 3 weeks ago my partner suggested that because my CH cycles are usually in late spring and late autumn, i could take a break from the regimen to see how i get on. She thought it would be good for my liver because she believes that all the supplements could be a bit hard on the liver.
So I stopped taking all the supplements, including the probiotic and tumeric powder.
Coincidentally, 2 nights ago, we also decided to change the side of the bed in which we sleep in, which made changing the side of my body i mostly sleep on. Since the change of side, i now sleep mostly on the side of my CH (the right).
Anyway, 1st night of the change of side i got shadows strong enough to wake me about 2 or 3 hours after falling asleep. last night (2nd night of the change of side in the bed), i woke again at 3 a. m with stronger shadows this time. I had to go and get the dusty O2 tank.
So yesterday i started taking the regimen again with a 60000iu loading dose. I did the same again today and will continue the loading dose for another full week until i get to about 500000iu D3 taken, then i will go back to 10000/day.
I will continue to sleep of the same side of the bed -the new side- and see how I get on with the CH.
Will keep posting here on the development.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Mar 5th, 2017 at 5:17pm
Hi Thierry, like you, I to am a Spring/Autumn clusterhead so during the months of Winter and Summer I cut the regimen intake down to a quarter, i.e. 2000iu vitamin D/day same with all the other co-factors and then come the months the beast comes a calling, I up the regimen to a half, 5000iu/day same with the other co-factors. This keeps the beast at bay for me.

I'm not sure about your sleeping arrangements for the beast to come a calling but, it's never bothered me what side of the bed I sleep on.

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 5th, 2017 at 6:56pm
This is the first part (and working draft) of my mini-series titled:

My Theory of Cluster Headache

The following is a discussion and not a definitive statement.  Like any good finding resulting from the scientific method, the conclusions must be open to challenge with attempts to replicate the underlying methods to see if same or similar results can be obtained.  If it cannot be duplicated with similar results consistent with the theory, the theory is dismissed. 

This theory, more appropriately, the scenario of events leading up to a cluster headache (CH), a.k.a., CH pathogenesis, holds as it’s fundamental premise, that CH is a genetotrophic disease/disorder.  A genetotrophic disease/disorder is caused by genetically determined nutritional needs not being met by the individual and which result in a disease/medical disorder...  in this case, the cluster headache syndrome. (Also applies to other TACs and Migraines)

Readers also need to buy into the concept of genetic expression as well as autocrine and paracrine signaling as the fundamental mechanisms of action by which the anti-inflammatory regimen with vitamin D3, Omega-3 fish oil and the vitamin D3 cofactors prevent CH. 

For readers new to this topic/thread, nearly all the data discussed in this paper come from several hundred CHers posting here at CH.com who have started the anti-inflammatory regimen since December of 2010.   More specific data comes from participants in the online survey of 187 CHers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen as of 15 April 2016.  (It is still online... Take it if you haven't already done so.)

The rest come from my research and old fashion Navy fighter pilot logic... that includes among other things...  "If it's not broken... Don't screw with it",  Occam's razor - that essentially states...  "When looking for an explanation for an occurrence, the simpler one is usually better",  and my long time favorite from Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Sergey Georgiyevich Gorshkov, a.k.a., "The Father of the modern Soviet Navy."   After viewing a new weapon system claimed to be better than the existing system... he remarked, "'Better' is the enemy of 'Good Enough'"

To date, more than 80% of CHers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen have experienced a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH.  54% of these CHers have experienced a lasting CH pain free response as long as they remain on this regimen.

The basic mechanism of action by which vitamin D3 prevents CH involves the genetically active metabolite of vitamin D3, 1,25(OH)2D3 triggering target genes to express autocrine and paracrine signaling agents to down-regulate or suppress the production of CGRP and likely other neuroinflammatory agents from neurons in the trigeminal ganglia.

Genetic expression involves:
   •      Replication
   •      Differentiation
   •      Up- or Down-Regulation of Genetic  Products
   •      Apoptosis – (Programmed Cell Death – what we hope is happening to cancer cells)

The simple explanation of genetic expression as it applies to vitamin D3 preventing CH involves the genetically active metabolite of vitamin D3, 1,25(OH)2D3, attaching to a vitamin D receptor (VDR) where it unlocks the cell’s genetic library of instructions so the cell can execute them. 

One of the instructions is to create a peptide that signals the cell to down-regulate CGRP production (autocrine signaling) and other near by cells to do the same (paracrine signaling).

The following slides provide a notional illustration of this process that starts with a molecule of the vitamin D3 metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3, attaching to a target gene segment VDR, messenger Ribose Nucleic Acid (mRNA) genesis, genetic transcription and translation leading to the production of autocrine and paracrine signaling agents.

The first slide illustrates a molecule of 1,25(OH)2D3 that has combined with a molecule of vitamin A (retinoic acid) to form a dimer (a two molecule chain) and both have attached to their respective receptors (RXR and VDR) at a vitamin D receptor element (VDRE) on a target gene sequence located on a spiral DNA helix.

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This next graphic illustrates how a set of genetic instructions are replicated and transcribed from a target gene sequence on the DNA helix onto a messenger RNA (mRNA) sequence.

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The final graphic illustrates an mRNA segment with genetic instructions transcribed from the parent gene segment, passing out of the cell nucleus into the cytoplasm where it is taken up by a ribosome.  Ribosomes are the cell’s pharmaceutical factories.  They take in the mRNA genetic instructions then build peptides (proteins) according to the instructions from amino acids in the cytoplasm.

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These new peptides serve as autocrine and paracrine agents that signal the cell and surrounding cells with instructions, in our case neurons within the trigeminal ganglia to down-regulate or inhibit CGRP production as one of the likely mechanisms of action.

With that as a premise, let’s set the stage with a vitamin D3 deficiency/insufficiency.  Results from the survey of 187 CHers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent their CH indicate CHers with active CH have a mean baseline 25(OH)D serum concentration of 22.8 ng/mL with a range of 4 to 47 ng/mL before starting this regimen.  The following normal distribution curve illustrates the mean baseline 25(OH)D serum concentration before start of regimen.

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At this point in the scenario of events leading to CH, we have the cluster headache canon loaded with black powder and it only needs a spark to fire.

This is where antigens, allergens, trauma, surgery, other comorbid conditions and mast cells come into play.  Mast cells are a type of white blood cell that’s part of our immune system.  They’re found in tissues throughout the body primarily in mucus membranes lining breathing passages and the GI tract, but they are also found around capillaries throughout the body and brain.  It’s these strategic locations that provide mast cells with the opportunity to defend the body against invading pathogens, allergens and other inflammatory agents.

Mast cells are loaded with “granules” filled with all kinds of things our immune system uses to combat pathogens and allergens as illustrated in the following electron microscope image.  As I spent many years in the military, I liken mast cells to an IED/Cluster Bomb spring loaded to  the pissed off position… 

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All it takes is an insult from a pathogen, allergen or byproducts of inflammation and mast cells can either selectively release the contents of these granules or explode (degranulate) rapidly as the cellular biologists call it, releasing a boatload of nature’s pharmaceutical products… in most cases, designed to keep us healthy…  However, if the mast cell degranulation is widespread and occurs too rapidly, anaphylactic shock can occur. 

In our case as CHers, mast cell degranulation releases a flood of histamine and that results in a humongous CH triggering mechanism…  The following graphic illustrates the products of mast cell degranulation.  Note that histamine is released in a matter of seconds and that leukotrienes and prostaglandins are released in a matter of minutes from start of degranulation.

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As a result of this mast cell degranulation, histamine, leucotrienes and prostaglandins are released.  In turn, histamine, leucotrienes and prostaglandins trigger neurons throughout the brain and in particular, the trigeminal ganglia to release calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) and Substance P (SP).  Both trigger neurogenic inflammation and CGRP is directly associated with the terrible pain, a.k.a., nociception in neurology speak of CH and migraine headache (MH).  It gets worse…

The CGRP released in this process in turn triggers mast cells to release more histamine, leucotrienes and prosteglandins resulting in a bi-directional or circular chain reaction that continues until the reactants are consumed… at which point the CH attack ends… for now… 

I am quite confident that the histamine and prostaglandins released as a result of an allergic reaction are responsible for many CHers being refractory to nearly all means of intervention, i.e., oxygen therapy not effective or less effective at best and traditional CH preventatives like verapamil either don’t work or their preventative effect is minimal.  It’s also very likely this flood of histamine and prostaglandins are responsible for busting to become ineffective.

Hopefully, we’re all on the same page at this point…

Regarding the question about the histamine – CGRP circular chain reaction taking place in an absence of allergens...  My first reaction…  No such thing, or at least, it’s highly improbable.  The more likely scenario is this chain reaction initiates with an allergen insult.  After that, the histamine – CGRP circular chain reaction is capable of continuing on its own without further insult by an allergen until running out of one or more of the reactants and the CH ends.  While this appears to be the primary mechanism of action, there’s reason to suspect there are other mechanisms in play…  I’ll get to that a little later.

The simple fact remains there are thousands of potential allergens around us all the time, day and night, no matter the season.   There is a question of how much of a particular allergen it takes to trigger the histamine – CGRP circular chain reaction.  I don’t know the answer, but logic and the law of mass action would suggest the triggering mechanisms are always present and at some point, a threshold will be reached where mast cells start degranulating.

Before we go any further, it’s important to understand the law of mass action so the rest of my discussion will make sense. 

The law of mass action deals with the relationship between a drug, a nutrient like vitamin D3, or an allergen and a receptor (a molecular socket) located on a cell membrane, the cell nucleus or somewhere on a specific gene sequence on a DNA helix.

The law of mass action dictates that:

•      The combination of drug (also called ligand) and receptor depends on the concentrations of each

•      The amount of drug-receptor complex formed determines the magnitude of the response

•      A minimum number of drug-receptor complexes must be formed for a response to be initiated (threshold)

•      As drug concentration increases, the number of drug-receptor complexes increases and drug effect increases

A point will be reached at which all receptors are bound to drug, and therefore no further drug-receptor complexes can be formed and the response does not increase any further (saturation).

In the case of an allergen and mast cell interaction, immunoglobulin E antibodies (IgE), part of the body's immune system, bind to an allergen and then this complex attaches to a receptor on mast cells triggering degranulation.

Circadian and Circannual rhythmicity can be factors in CH pathogenesis due to the central role played by the hypothalamus in our autonomic nervous system.  During circadian and circannual rhythmicity we experience an ebb and flow of hormones and peptides as we transition through day and night, wakefulness and sleep, moon cycles and seasons with long and short days eliciting more or less cutaneous vitamin D3. 

Sleep is the only time our brains can go offline for house cleaning…  I’ve little doubt the chemicals flushed from our brain during this house cleaning are capable of triggering mast cells to degranulate if the conditions are right… and in accordance with the laws of mass action.  That said, circadian and circannual rhythmicity are only one possible explanation for variations in CH cycles.  Seasonal blooms of allergens can just as easily explain the increased frequency of CH cycles during Spring and Fall seasons.

Even living in a hypoallergenic bubble is no guarantee we can be free of allergens.  We have Dermatophagoides pteronyssinus a.k.a. the common house dust mite. 

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These little beasties live in your bedding, carpets and just about anywhere in fabrics touched by humans as their diet is mainly flakes of skin our bodies shed all the time.

Over the course of 10 years, your mattress can easily double in weight because of the accumulation of dust mite debris (let's be real here: dead dust mites and dust mite poo), your dead skin cells, etc.

Before you burn your mattress or buy a new one, buy a hypoallergenic  mattress cover and wash all the bedding and pillows in 140°  F water.  Unfortunately, no matter what you do, you can’t get rid of dust mites completely…  Fortunately, for most of us, our immune systems adapt to the allergic nature of dust mites and their droppings…  as long as the concentrations don’t get too high…
That said, this is another example where the law of mass action applies.  By that I mean if there’s a major bloom of dust mites, the allergic effect will increase to the point where mast cells will start degranulating and release histamine.  If our vitamin D3 status is low, i.e., a 25(OH)D less than 40 ng/mL and mast cells start degranulating…  we’ll experience the circular histamine – CGRP chain reaction and Bang!... we’ll get hit with a cluster headache.

Then there’s the dynamic duo of Demodex folliculorum and Demodex brevis, both frequently referred to as eyelash mites.

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Studies indicate a prevalence as high as 41% among people over 18 years of age who carry these little beasties…  Even if they didn’t, the family dog, cat or any furry pet likely carries a close genetic relative.  Whatever the case, they’re potential allergens.

Even with the best hygiene and super effective house cleaning that kept us completely free of these beasties, we still have hundreds of different colonies of biota numbering in the trillions, living in the GI tract, nasal passages and lungs called the microbiome.  Most of these colonies are beneficial... but some are not, particularly if they leave the GI tract and enter another part of the body.  Yeast and E. coli infections are classic examples.  While infections like these are technically not associated with an allergic reaction, they do result in inflammation and the release of neuroinflammatory peptides that could easily trigger mast cells to degranulate.

Prostaglandin E(2) (PGE(2)),  could easily be the case here as PGE(2) has been found capable of triggering the release of CGRP from trigeminal neurons.  This poses a problem for CHers as first-generation antihistamines are ineffective in blocking prostaglandin receptors.  Fortunately, the Omega-3 fatty acids, are the best treatment in the event prostaglandins are playing a major role in CH pathogenesis.

Then there are mold spores…  The drip pan under your frost-free refrigerator, the air handler in your central heating and air conditioning system, window mounted air conditioners, shower curtains and even your washing machine are all potential breeding grounds for mold.

Viral and bacterial infections can also cause problems for CHers.  For starters, they trigger an immune system response that consumes serum vitamin D3, 25(OH)D and the essential enzymes needed to hydroxylate both to the genetically active vitamin D3 metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3 that helps us prevent CH.  If the scale of the infection is such that mast cells are triggered to degranulate… Bang! We get hit.

Finally, there’s a whole host of metals and chemicals, some industrial and some produced from things we eat or drink…  Aldehydes and ketones produced during the process of metabolizing alcohol and certain vegetable oils are capable of triggering mast cells to degranulate…

The microbiome... colonies of symbiotic/friendly bacteria a.k.a., "biota" living in the GI tract can also become corrupt with "bad" unfriendly biota or decimated by antibiotics or other chemicals causing a bloom of potential allergens...  If this is the case, probiotics are indicated.

In addition there are a number of studies linking migraine and cluster headache to higher and lower concentrations of metals.

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So where does that leave us?  The simple answer is to maintain a healthy immune system.  This is one of, if not the major beneficial side effect of taking the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent our CH. 

The final questions on the relationship between mast cell degranulation and circadian rhythmicity and why the cycles appear in 12 to 24 hours cycles bring to mind a few basic principles of biochemistry…  Most biochemical reactions associated with human physiology take place at a sweet spot temperature.  For humans, that’s 98.6° F.  These biochemical reactions also work best within a pH range of 7.35 to 7.45, not surprisingly, that’s the normal pH range of human serum.  Remember the Andromeda Strain?

Let’s take the increase in the frequency of CH during sleep as an example.  During sleep, most body functions slow.  Blood pressure, heartbeat and respiration rates all drop and are as low as they ever get during sleep.  While we inhale sufficient oxygen to stay alive, the partial pressure of arterial O2 (PaO2) drops significantly below normal.  The reduced lung ventilation during sleep also allows the partial pressure of arterial CO2 (PaCO2) to rise and arterial pH to drop.   This sets the stage for a perfect storm for CHers.

To be continued...

While you're waiting, please take the time to watch the fascinating documentary titled: Battlefield Cell from the Curiosity Series on the Discovery Channel:

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This video will put you in the same frame of mind that's kept me well outside the box of conventional thinking regarding cluster headache.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Mar 5th, 2017 at 10:00pm
Batch, I've read of cluster headaches being referred too, as histamine headaches?

Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 5th, 2017 at 11:46pm
Spot on Hoppy.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Mar 7th, 2017 at 7:05am
Wow Batch, that was amazing, thank you.
i am blown away with your knowledge which is the result of a huge amount of research and work. Thank you for sharing so much. You are helping me and i am sure countless others understand and get relief. Thank you

Hoppy, I am going to stay on the full regimen from now on, I might skip a day here and there when i know I'm way off my CH cycles times or if I'm on a long term sun holiday.
I have now been back on the full regimen at loading doses pace for last  4 or 5 days with 60000iu D3/day. The shadows are gone, whatever side of the bed or my body i sleep on.

All the best to all

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Mar 9th, 2017 at 9:02am
Hey Batch and everyone. I am back after my 3 year break from these headaches. I've taken my D3 every day religiously but in the last 2 weeks I've had shadows. Today I got hit with a "nice" 5-6 headache while at work.

I just sent in my latest D3 test and am waiting on the results to come back. Last year at this time I was at a 102ng/mL.

I noticed you added Benadryl to the batch now. I started that when I got home today. Benadryl puts me to sleep, any way to combat this? 

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:17am
Hey TG,

Thanks for the update and good question.  It's hard to believe the spring pollen season is almost upon us depending where you live...  An early pollen bloom could easily be the culprit that pushed you out of CH remission even with a constant maintenance dose of vitamin D3.

I've found Children's Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) Allergy Relief Cherry Flavored Liquid works effectively with less drowsiness due to the lower dose.  12.5 mg (5 mL in the measuring cap) at bed time should do the trick.  If you need more, take 12.5 mg when you're home and done driving for the day then another 12.5 mg prior to bed.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by aceserve on Mar 14th, 2017 at 3:50pm
Hello Batch,

I am just getting out of a CH cycle, and am starting the Vitamin D regimen today. I think I am pretty much out of the cycle though had a residual CH (2 or 3 on the pain scale) after some red wine last night. No more red wine for me for quite some time, going forward. My question is, since my CH cycle really exited at the end of February, does it make sense to start with 10,000 IU dose instead of megaloading? I am also taking the calcium, fish oil and Mature Multi that I bought in Costco. I couldn't find the Super K. Thank you for pioneering this treatment. All best, Andrew (aka Ace)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 14th, 2017 at 9:38pm
Hey Andrew/Ace,

Good move starting the anti-inflammatory regimen...  You won't be sorry...  Even if it appears your CH cycle is ending, there are two very good reasons for doing this. 

The first is if you stay on this regimen year-round, the odds of sailing through your next regularly scheduled CH cycle being a non-event, a.k.a., no CH, are very high.  The second is a boatload of health benefits that start with a T-Rex immune system that will minimize infections (colds, flu, shingles and the list goes on), cardiovascular and brain health, fewer aches, minimal skeletal pain and your prostate will love you...

These are not idle claims...  To see a list of 78 health conditions prevented or treated with vitamin D3 along with the RCTs and CTs providing the medical evidence, check out the following link at VitaminDWiki:

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Regarding the Super K... I buy it over Amazon and usually order four of the 90 count bottles for a year's supply.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by aceserve on Mar 15th, 2017 at 10:16am
Thank you for the additional information, Batch. I suppose, since I am now out of the cycle, that I will start with 10,000 IUs of vitamin D3 instead of the loading dosage. I expect I will have many months in which I can build up the D-levels in my body before the next cycle comes a-callin'. Does that make sense? I had a blood test yesterday right before I started the regimen, and asked that they do the Vitamin D test. Best, Andrew

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Mar 15th, 2017 at 1:02pm
Hi Andrew,
The is no fear to be had with megaloading.
Yes it seems that you might not need to megaload, however it is very likely that you are highly deficient in Vit D, so bringing your levels up that bit quicker will have you at therapeutic levels sooner. You could take 20000 iu/day D3 until you have taken 600000iu then drop to 10000iu/day.
I recently took 500000iu/day for 10 days and have only felt benefits. Even now i take 20000/day + 50000 on one of the days because i know that spring is the time i would be stating a cycle.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 15th, 2017 at 2:16pm
Hey Andrew,

You're correct.  There's no need for the vitamin D3 loading schedule if the CH beast has stopped jumping ugly for this cycle.

The average time course 25(OH)D response to a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day should follow the solid black line in the following chart.

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I say "average" response as there can be a wide variation in actual 25(OH)D time course response.  It's actually a fascinating game of "Put" and "Take" with no score cared until your next lab test for 25(OH)D in six months. 

While you're putting 10,000 IU/day into your body to elevate the 25(OH)D serum concentration, there are several organs, fat cells, muscle cells, nerve cells and the microbiome (friendly symbiotic colonies of single cell bacteria and biota lining the gut from mouth to tail pipe) taking 25(OH)D out of the serum until they're saturated... 

In addition, your immune system's white blood cells can suck up the entire daily dose in one gulp for several days if it's fighting off an infection or inflammation caused by trauma from an injury or surgery...

If you look at the 25(OH)D response for the first 30 days, it is essentially linear.  After that it gradually starts to level off until it reaches a relatively stable equilibrium at five to six months. 

This leveling trend is due to vitamin D3 homeostasis, one of several homeostatic control mechanisms that the body uses to maintain certain physiological parameters in an optimum range.  What is happening during vitamin D3 homeostasis is 25(OH)D hydroxylation shifts from producing 1,25(OH)2D3 to producing 24,25(OH)2D3, an inactive vitamin D3 metabolite that is broken down and eliminated by the kidneys.

The fact that the normal human body temperature is 98.6ş F is the result of another homeostatic control mechanism. The pH of our blood is also maintained between 7.35 and 7.45 by pH homeostasis.  It turns out that these sweet spots in body temperature and pH are where the body's biochemical reactions are most effective and productive.

Hope this helps.  The best course of action is to stay on this regimen year round.  The health benefits are hard to argue so don't forget the rest of your family.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Mar 16th, 2017 at 8:25am
Hi Batch, great post again, thank you. It is because of the D3 gobblers that i was suggesting that Andrew takes 20000iu/day, especially as he might be quite D deficient.
All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by aceserve on Mar 16th, 2017 at 11:39am
Thank you Batch and Thierry. Much appreciated. I will keep you posted. Best, Andrew

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Radar63 on Mar 18th, 2017 at 6:36am
Good morning Batch and fellow C/Hers

I hope you are all receiving the undoubted benefit of Batch's/our regimen.  Each year I have come back to the board as my early indicators show to me that a cluster is about to start.  This year I came back a little earlier.  I use the maintenance dose year round and benefit from it in terms of energy and resilience to illness.  I started taking Nytol (diphenhydramine 25mg broken in half) twice a day.  I also noted the updated enhanced regime with Cur cumin, Vit C and have changed to the mature multi vit from separate tablets.  Usually by now my headaches have kicked in, I have two really bad weeks then they settle down to a routine.  However this year I am having all the daytime signs, i.e dry mouth, shadows and some muscle tiredness, with absolutely no pain.  Bizarrely usually before a headache season starts I have inflammation around where I had my vasectomy (many years ago) and mouth ulcers, none of which I have had this year (yet!). 

I know all the local CHers have started as my O2 delivery chap came to do the health and safety inspection of my tanks last Saturday and told me that all of his other CHers are now sucking down lots of oxygen and he wanted to know why I was not.  Now here in the UK he is not allowed to share any details, not even take a flyer from me about this blog, however I have written to the lead consultant at the head ache centre at our regional hospital to give him the details, in the hope it will be shared.

I have had my 25 OH(D3) seruml level checked, it is 295 nmol/litre, with Batch's help in recent years I know my therapeutic level is above 250 nmol/l.  So I go into the next month or so with fingers crossed and keep taking my large number of tablets considering setting up a support group locally to help those that are emptying their tanks.

Every year for 20 years I have been hit at this time, my life became liveable because of Batch's post, even if they do break through I know that they will last for shorter times and be less painful than they could be. 

So once again Batch I cannot thank you enough, having a positive impact on individual lives and therefore their families as well is truly the best thing we can hope for in this world, Batch you do that for all of us.

Kind regards
Ian
Cornwall, UK


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Mar 18th, 2017 at 11:00am
Checking in prior to my test results coming back. They received them on the 12th so should be any day now. I must be missing something, or something is using all of my D3. I've been loading 50k iu D3 every morning and yesterday got hit with the most CHs I've had in a long time. 5 total 3 at night enough to get me out of bed but all very mild (so I should not complain).

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 20th, 2017 at 10:13pm
Hey TG,

Sorry the beast is jumping ugly even with th 50,000 loading doses...  This is a classic indication of an allergic reaction.  Pick up some Liquid Children's Allergy Medicine (Diphenhydramine HCL)  12.5 mg in the morning and another 12.5 mg prior to bed.  Even at the lower dose the Diphenhydramine HCL can make you drowsy so be very careful in you need to drive during the day.

If you need to be sharp as a tack during the day, take the first dose as soon as you're home for the day and the second prior to bed.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 10:41am
Ian,

Thank you for a wonderful post.  It's always good to hear CHers are continuing to experience a CH pain free response to the anti-inflammatory regimen. 

I'm preparing for the 20th Vitamin D Workshop in Orlando, FL 28-31 March and it helps to have the kind of followup information you provided.

I just took a download harvest from the online survey database of CHers taking this regimen to prevent their CH.  The good news is the year after year, raw average percentage of CHers experiencing favorable response in the first 30 days has inched up from 81.3% to 82.3% and the pain free response in the first 30 days from 54% to 56%.

The really great news is the response rate for 2016 is phenomenal.  93.3% of CHers who responded to this survey in 2016 experienced a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH. 

To put this in perspective,  The consensus of several published RCTs indicate 70% of ECH and CCH patients have substantial improvement with verapamil  therapy.  The anti-inflammatory regimen is beating that figure by 20%.  Moreover, less than 7% of CHers experience a complete cessation of CH symptoms with verapamil... 

Hello! The online survey data for 2016 indicates 70% of CHers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen experience a lasting cessation of CH symptoms in less than 30 days.

I attribute this increase in efficacy to:
  • Improved availability of the treatment protocol
  • Compliance (CHers following the treatment protocol more carefully
  • Starting the 2-Week vitamin D3 loading schedule
  • Taking a first-generation antihistamine like Diphenhydramine HCL (Benadryl) after a week on this regimen without a favorable response

In order to improve access to the anti-inflammatory regimen treatment protocol even further you can download a pdf copy of the most recent version from VitaminDWiki by pasting the following URL in your browser or email to another CHer.

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For high-tech CHers, you can scan the following QR code with your smart phone and it will download a pdf copy of this regimen to your smart phone.  It will come in handy when you shop for supplements.

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The smart phone QR Code scanner app is free.  It downloads and installs in less than 15 seconds.

Take care and thanks again.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 6:32pm
Hey Batch thanks. I think I am actually battling a sinus infection at this time.    JUST CONFIRMED with my DR.

My latest results.

03/21/2017 (ng/mL)85

Hit last night with an uncharacteristic headache. This headache still woke me up an hour after going to sleep and most of the pain was on my bad side, but this headache lasted a good 3+ hours. I threw O2 at it, more D3, Monsters everything and it just kind of hung around. I finally took an old expired sumatriptan oral pill and that put me to sleep. I'd love to write it off as sinus (my teeth hurt on both sides) and or stress but I just dont know

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:17pm
TG,

Roger sinus infection... With a 25(OH)D serum concentration at 85 ng/mL, you can still take a 50,000 IU/day vitmain D3 loading dose for two days then drop back to your maintenance dose.

I'll still wager a Coke & Candy Bar it's an allergy and you'll regain your CH PF status by taking Children's Allergy Liquid Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL).  12.5 mg (5 mL in the measuring cap) in the morning and another 12.5 mg at night before bed.

Try to keep the liquid in your mouth for at least 5 minutes swirling it between cheeks and gums and under the tongue..  This will get this first-gen antihistamine into your bloodstream faster than through the GI tract.  It's very sweet.

If there's no joy after a week of liquid Benadryl, I'd start loading vitamin C at 1,000 mg every two hours for at least a week.  Vitamin C is water soluble with a half-life of 30 minutes as most of it is pumped over the side by kidneys in urine. 

I'd also add 500 mg/day curcumin... It is another potent natural anti-inflammatory agent

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Mar 25th, 2017 at 10:43am
Batch

Thanks I have included the Benadryl and am still getting hit at night with 2-4 light headaches (enough to wake me up and hit the O2 or drink monster). I will up the dose to the adult dosage to see if that helps.

Thanks
Todd

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 25th, 2017 at 2:34pm
Todd,

When necessary I use 50mg Benadryl.

As it makes you quite "groggy" at that dosage I always take it last thing at night. It's certainly not advisable to drive or operate machinery.

Best,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Mar 25th, 2017 at 2:43pm
Thanks Peter I will give that a shot tonight. I've been outside all day in the new pollen I am sure I will need it anyway.

Take Care

Todd

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 25th, 2017 at 5:32pm
Todd,

If there's no joy after a week of taking Benadryl (Diphenhydramien HCL), start taking Vitamin C.  Taking 1000 mg vitamin C every two hours throughout the day should help.  Vitamin C is water soluble. It takes an hour to reach Cmax and as it's rapidly eliminated by the kidneys, its half-life is 30 minutes.  That means you can safely take a 1000 mg tablet every 1 to 2 hours throughout the day without running into bowel tolerance.

The medical world is just starting to understand what Dr. Linus Pauling was trying to tell them about vitamin C's many benefits.

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NPR: Doctor Successfully Uses Holistic Treatment (Vitamin C) For Deadly Sepsis! Boom!
By Erin Elizabeth - March 24, 2017

As a side note, Dr. Linus Pauling had many critics when he said treating atherosclerosis and cancer with vitamin C infusions would be beneficial...  They included the American Medical Association, American Heart Association, American Cancer Society and Big Pharma. 

If there's an ironic side to this story, Linus Pauling had two more Individual Nobel Prizes (Chemistry and Nuclear Proliferation) than any of his critics.  Moreover, he'd outlived nearly all his vocal critics when he passed away at the age of 93.  He took 12 to 15 grams of vitamin C a day for many years.

Adding 500 mg/day curcumin wouldn't hurt either.  Curcumin is a potent, natural anti-inflammatory agent.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:51am
Back for my update. I am still getting hit every night I have since added 500 mg/day curcumin and I take Benadryl upon waking and a large dose at night.

I will be trying the Vitamin C starting today. Not sure what else to do.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 1st, 2017 at 6:26pm
You could try adding Kudzu powder to the regimen, brand name Samsara, one scoop 3x/day in a cup of tea or coffee is known to help, in some folk.

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:57pm
Hey Todd,

With your last lab for 25(OH)D at 85 ng/mL, you've got plenty of room to maneuver with higher doses of vitamin D3.

I just spent 4 days in Orlando, FL at the 20th Vitamin D Workshop attended by vitamin D3 experts from all over the world.  Attendees included molecular biologists, geneticists, physicians, nutritionists and scientists in a who's who list of the world's top vitamin D3 experts.

While there was no clear consensus on what constitutes an optimum therapeutic dose of vitamin D3 for non-skeletal disorders and diseases, there was sufficient evidence presented that sustained intakes of vitamin D3 at doses >40,000 IU/day was safe and that maintaining 25(OH)D serum concentrations >100 ng/mL was also safe. 

Of course the above statement includes the proviso that long term vitamin D3 doses and 25(OH)D serum concentrations this high require frequent labs for serum total calcium and PTH.

I spent a good bit of time discussing this topic with Patrick McCullough, the principal investigator (PI) for the following study.

Results of daily oral dosing with up to 60,000 international units (iu) of vitamin D3 for 2 to 6 years in 3 adult males.

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Accordingly, two days loading vitamin D3 at 50,000 IU/day and bumping your vitamin D3 maintenance dose up to 15,000 IU/day might just do the trick.

The vitamin C taken at 1000 mg every two hours throughout the day is a very natural way of treating infections.  If you haven't already done so, starting a good probiotic has also proved helpful for CHers with problems like yours. 

Scientists are just starting to realize the importance of the friendly symbiotic colonies of bacteria and microbiota living in the GI tract called the microbiome.  There are just as many microbiota in the gut as cells in the human body and the genetic diversity of the microbiome is far more than the human genome.  Although many of the experts call the microbiome another organ with untold functions yet to be discovered, the general consensus is a happy gut is a healthy gut.

If you decide to increase you vitamin D3 intake, please discuss this with your PCP or neurologist so you can schedule the needed labs.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 3rd, 2017 at 4:12am
Batch, If vitamin D helps calcium absorption to your bones and vitamin K2 does the same, why take both?

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 3rd, 2017 at 6:13pm
Hey Hoppy, if i understand right, K2 stops the calcium depositing in the veins and arteries, it directs the calcium towards the bones.

All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 4th, 2017 at 12:12am
Thanks Thierry, Oh so confusing! I take Swiss vitamin D 1000iu + K2 45mcg x 5/day. So, I just thought it weird both being in the same pill, because when you read on separate label brands, they both state they do the same thing! Get calcium too the bones, nothing about arteries, or veins.

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 4th, 2017 at 1:40pm
If we take Vitamin D3, we also need to take Vitamin K2.  This is a good topic that needs a little explanation.

Serum levels of vitamin vitamin D3, 25(OH)D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3 are primarily important in calcium homeostasis and building bone mineral density.  The serum concentration of 1,25(OH)2D3 is controlled by calcium homeostasis mechanisms that include chemo sensors in the parathyroids and kidneys. 

If serum calcium drops low within its normal reference range (8.5 to 10.5 mg/dL), the parathyroid glands sense this condition and start increasing the amount of PTH (Parathyroid Hormone) produced that in turn, enables the kidneys to hydroxylate 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D3 the hormonally active form of vitamin D3. 

This serum level 1,25(OH)2D3 travels via the circulatory system to the gut where it picks up calcium to increase its concentration in the blood stream. 

As serum the calcium concentration rises approaching the upper limit of its normal reference range, the parathyroid glands detect this condition and stop releasing PTH.  This process is ongoing as long as we're alive.

This serum calcium is then added to the bones, used in many physiological processes throughout the body or dumped over the side in urine if there's too much.  If there's insufficient calcium from dietary sources in the gut, 1,25(OH)2D3 will take calcium from the skeletal system.

Before you get all excited... this happens all the time in a sequence of "Put" and "Take."  As long as the amount of calcium being put into the bones is greater than or equal to the amount of calcium being taken from the bones... all is well.  If more calcium is taken from the bones than put into them, we end up with osteoporosis.   Sooo... unless you've a diet high in calcium rich foods, it's a good idea to take at least 200 mg/day calcium supplement.

Where the Vitamin K2 menaquinones (MK4 and MK7) come into play is relatively new to medical science as studies of vitamin K2 have only began in the last 12 to 15 years.  The first study of vitamin K2 to be registered in clinicaltrials.gov occurred in 2005. 

Studies have shown that vitamin K2 increases the rate of bone accretion (building bone mineral density by adding calcium and phosphorus to the skeletal system).  As a part of this process, studies have also shown that vitamin K2 helps direct serum calcium away from soft tissues and arteries towards the skeletal system.

So... in simple terms, vitamin D3 pulls calcium from the gut then pushes it into the bloodstream and vitamin K2 acts like an epoxy catalyst causing the serum calcium to plate out in the bones.  Roughly 600 IU to 2000 IU/day vitamin D3 is needed to maintain bone mineral density.

To be clear, the above processes have very little to do with the mechanisms by which vitamin D3 prevents CH.  This is where vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D enter target cells throughout the body where both are hydroxylated to 1,25(OH)2D3 within the cells. 

In our case as CHers, the cells involved are neurons within the hypothalamus and trigeminal ganglia where molecules of 1,25(OH)2D3 join with molecules of retinoic acid (Vitamin A) to form a dimer (a two molecule polymer) that enter the cell nucleus and attache to target genes to enable genetic expression. 

Again in our case, to produce autocrine and paracrine signaling agents (peptides) that down regulate the production of CGRP, Substance P and other inflammatory agents that also stimulate pain and thus prevent CH and migraines.

There are no lab tests for cellular concentrations of vitamin D3, 25(OH)D3 or 1,25(OH)2D3.  The only way we know they're there within the target neurons in sufficient concentrations is good health and in our case as CHers... a cessation of CH symptoms.

For more on vitamin D3 and vitamin K2, see the following VitaminDWiki links:

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Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 4th, 2017 at 6:19pm
Hoppy,

here is a clear explanation of the role of vit K2 (MK7)

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All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 5th, 2017 at 12:39am
[smiley=dankk2.gif] Thierry & Batch! For clearing that up for me.

Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 5th, 2017 at 5:04pm
Hey Batch,
another post by you that beats any article available as it goes beyond the simple explanations offered by such.
Thank you.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by aceserve on Apr 5th, 2017 at 7:04pm
Batch,

You've convinced me. I am going back to Costco to see if they have that Life Extension Super K.

You deserve a Nobel Prize or something for your research and willingness to share info and answer questions.

Regards,
Andrew

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 6th, 2017 at 3:24am
Hoppy, Thierry, Aceserve,

Thanks for the kind words...  but that post had a few typo's...  I need to use my reading cheaters more often as the Cadillac surgery that replaced a 72 year old clouded lens in my good eye with a new plastic lens is set for 20:20... at distance...

Ace, I've sent a letter to Costco asking them to start carrying the Super K, but I don't think they have done this yet.  In the mean time you can order the Super K from amazon.com.

I usually order four of the 90 count bottles of Super K for a year's supply.  At 20 cents per softgel capsule, this is the most expensive supplement in the anti-inflammatory regimen...  However, given all the benefits...  it's worth the expense for me.

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You can get a slightly lower cost per softgel at 17 cents with Now Foods Brand MK7.

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by aceserve on Apr 6th, 2017 at 11:13am
Thank you!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 12th, 2017 at 2:01am
Hi all,

Batch,
yesterday i dropped a sheet of plywood on my big toe, and silly me wasn't wearing steel toe cap shoes.
My toe is black and blue with bruising and may be broken, i cannot bend it.
Last night i got an attack and had to suck on the O2 for relief.
Any connection between the hurt toe and the CH attack? could my D3 reserves by sucked dry by the healing of the toe?

Many thanks

All the best

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 12th, 2017 at 4:12am
Hey Thierry,

Occam's razor... When looking for a reason for an occurrence like this... the simpler reason is usually better.

In your case, the inflammation from the squershed big toe has likely depleted your serum concentrations of vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D.  The drop in vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D concentrations was obviously more than enough to open the door to let the CH beast start jumping ugly...

I'd take a 50,000 IU vitamin D3 loading dose for a couple days then up the maintenance dose to 20,000 IU/day until the toe turns pink again and toenail falls off... At that point you can drop back to your regular maintenance dose.  It's also a good idea to double the daily magnesium intake split am and pm while taking the vitamin D3 loading dose.

If the CH beast is still jumping ugly, drop another 50,000 IU vitamin D3 loading dose...

I have a dear friend and fellow CHer in Switzerland who had the same thing happen to him.  He was cruising along CH pain free taking 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 when he broke his ankle during a takeoff run parasailing...

The swelling was so bad they wanted to wait a day or two for it to subside before surgery to pin the broken bones...  12 hours after the accident laying in the hospital bed, the CH beast started jumping ugly...  Fortunately there was an oxygen outlet next to his bed so he called for an oxygen mask and huffed and puffed on oxygen to blow away several headaches until his wife drove home and came back with his oxygen demand valve and a supply of vitamin D3 and the cofactors...  He and his wife had the hospital staff walking in circles over all this...

Take care... and don't forget the safety shoes...

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 12th, 2017 at 6:14pm
Hi Batch thank you for your reply.
Explanation understood and i have taken 50000iu D3 and will do so again tomorrow and maybe even another day as well as the extra dose of magnesium.
Keeping the O2 by the bed tonight again.

Buying the safety boots also!!! bit late hey, but better late than never.

All the best to you and yours

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Apr 17th, 2017 at 3:49pm
Update: 5 days/4 nights PF. I did another load day of 50k D# and take 25mg of Benadryl every 4 hours. I am sure it's overkill for the Benadryl but I am not tired from it any more so until the pollen dies down I believe I am going to stick with it. I also uppded my maintenance dose to 15k D3 for now. I have a test coming in the mail so I can update my numbers for you all.  I am about to go take a run which usually brings on a night time hit so here's to hoping I (we) got it figured out.

Take care and I'll be back with my numbers and update.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 17th, 2017 at 7:26pm
Hey TG,

Good move... and glad to hear you've got the CH beast on the run...

The number of CHers who don't respond to this regimen is dropping.  The surveys submitted for 2016 indicate 93% of CHers starting this regimen are experiencing a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH in the first 30 days.  By significant we're seeing a reduction in frequency from an average of 3 CH/day down to 3 CH/week.  70% of CHers starting this regimen experience a complete cessation of CH symptoms in the first 30 days.

In talking with the non-responders to this regimen, it appears many would benefit with a higher maintenance dose of vitamin D3 with a corresponding higher serum 25(OH)D concentration above 100 ng/mL. 

Going this route requires close medical supervision from a physician who buys into this concept of higher vitamin D3 status and who is willing to order frequent labs for serum 25(OH)D, total calcium and PTH.

I met with a physician at the 20th Vitamin D Workshop in Orlando FL earlier this month who has been tracking patients taking 40,000 IU/day up to 60,000 IU/day for two to three years... Their serum calcium has remained within its normal reference range so no indication of vitamin D3 intoxication.  Of course their 25(OH)D labs are off the scale but their PTH stays low near the minimum reference range...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Apr 18th, 2017 at 10:25pm

Batch wrote on Jan 25th, 2017 at 9:18am:
Hey Clustermom,

Great news your son is CH pain free.  I don't do facebook so I'm not sure what that group is putting out.  I've had a few CHers tell me the facebook group may not understand the importance of taking the cofactors.  Vitamin D3 is NOT a monotherapy.  Vitamin D3 cofactors must be taken when the vitamin D3 dose is ≥10,000.

If I were episodic, (I'm a chronic CHer so take this regimen daily/365) I would stay on this regimen year round.  That way I wouldn't need to guess when to ramp up my 25(OH)D in time for the next episodic cycle... that may decide to come early...

The health benefits of this regimen are so great I have my entire family and many friends taking it year round.  At 50 cents a day it is the least expensive insurance for a healthy life.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


I was reading posts on Facebook today, a group called Cluster Headaches Exposed...it is so sad to read how many people are on there and have no clue how to deal with CH's.

Specifically those who state they are taking D3 and Calcium...or taking D3 and Magnesium...but very few appear to be knowledgeable about the co-factors with related dosages involved with this regimen.

Of course I posted a link to this website so they can hopefully educate and help themselves.  ;)

-Gregg in Las Vegas

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Chuffy on May 14th, 2017 at 5:04am
It's funny you should say that as I have been thinking for some time now that there should be D3 Regimen page/group set up on Facebook. I have helped several people on there and steered them here from other CH groups who knew nothing about it. It really is the biggest platform available now and traffic to forums in general is steadily dropping off over time.

So, anyone fancy help setting one up, I would do it but don't feel qualified enough to go it alone, would be good if Batch got involved but I don't think he 'does' Facebook. Apart from the fact I know it works I don't know enough about the nitty gritty like Batch does.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by want2ride on Jun 3rd, 2017 at 11:29pm
4 1/2 years ago I was having CH bouts alternating months year round that lasted 4-5 weeks each. I started the vitamin D regimen  and have had 4 total cycles in that 4 1/2 years that lasted 3 weeks. Rather than 4-6 headaches a day it was 2 and the intensity was MUCH less and most of them aborted early on. I would slam a 12oz redbull at the onset and get on oxygen.... The combination works. If I had this therapy when I was in college I would probably have finished.

Thanks for everything!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 8th, 2017 at 11:12pm
Bump

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ksouthern81 on Oct 10th, 2017 at 8:23am
First of all thanks for such a in-depth regimen. I've read these forums for close to 9 years but haven't really posted.

A couple weeks ago started another cycle (2 year break). This is the 3rd Cycle I've had in 9 years and mine tend to last about 4-5 months. Started your D3 Regimen Saturday (4 days ago) but haven't had blood work completed yet. The only doctor locally that understands is booked until later this month.

I went from having a Kip 8/9 2-3x a night to now having a Kip 4/5 once a night. There is still a nagging shadow throughout the day but that normally subsides after half an energy drink. My nightly attacks are easily aborted with an energy drink or half an imitrex now also.

So thanks so much for the regimen and I hope it continues to work its wonders!


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Oct 10th, 2017 at 10:11am
Hey Ksouthern81,

Thanks for the feedback.  Out of curiosity, are you using the latest version of this treatment protocol dated 15 Jan 2017 and did you use one of the vitamin D3 loading schedules?  If not you can download it from the VitaminDWiki.com website at the following link.  Just paste it in your browser.

CH Preventative Treatment Protocol for Neurologists - Jan 2017.pdf

I posted it there to keep track of the number of downloads.  So far readers at VitaminDWiki have downloaded 3550 copies since 21 Jan 2017.

The reason I'm asking is this version suggests a week to 10 day course of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL).  It turns out that most of us CHers have allergies. These can be subclinical, i.e., no obvious or outward symptoms, but the allergic reaction is still there pumping out histamine.  If the level of histamine is high, none of the CH interventions will be effective, even vitamin D3.  Diphenhydramine is a first-generation antihistamine that crosses the blood brain barrier to block H1 histamine receptors on neurons throughout the brain and in particular, the trigeminal ganglia. 

Histamine triggers neurons withing the trigeminal ganglia to release calcitonin gene-related peptides (CGRP).  CGRP is the onerous neuropeptide that triggers neurogenic inflammation and the pain we know as cluster headache.  By blocking the H1 histamine receptors, this limits or halts the release of CGRP and that allows vitamin D3 to do its thing through genetic expression to prevent CH.

25 mg of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) every four hours during the day and 50 mg at bed time should have you completely CH pain free the first night.  Just be careful and not drive after taking it as it will make you drowsy.   If you need to drive during the day, wait until you're home for the day then take a 25 mg tablet and 50 mg prior to bed.

When you've been on this regimen at least 30 days and have seen your PCP for the 25(OH)D lab test, please take the online survey at the following link when you have the time.  Data from this survey is important as I use it to update the survey results. Many neurologists will not suggest this regimen unless there's been a study that provides medical evidence of efficacy and safety.  The most recent version of the anti-inflammatory regimen CH preventative treatment protocol contains the results of this survey.

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Take care and please keep us posted. 

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Ksouthern81 on Oct 11th, 2017 at 7:52am
Thanks Batch,

I did download the latest version and I'm using the 2 week loading schedule. Due to my BMI (I need 100,000ui more) I will probably go 16 days before tapering to 10,000ui of D3.

I tried to take the 25mg of Childrens Benadryl throughout the day but it was like a tranquilizer, and trying to concentrate at work went out the window. I am taking 25mg at night however and I'll try to up this to 50mg tonight to test it out.

I'll be sure to take the survey as soon as I get to the doctor but my personal results so far seem promising.

Thanks again!

-Ksouthern

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Colin Castle on Oct 11th, 2017 at 1:09pm
Hi all,

My story, feel free to skip the next paragraph to get to my actual questions.

I've been having cluster headaches since my late teens, every year during the first week of November. They lasted about 4-6 weeks. Early thirties I went 20 months without one then it started in July and lasted 6-8 weeks. Been getting them every two years in July since then. Tried the D3 regimen in 2014 mid cycle and it didn't work for me. To be honest I wasn't very diligent because I wasn't sold on it. Tried again x2 weeks before my last scheduled cycle in July 2016 and it worked beautifully, not even a single shadow (That's over 3 years without an attack, awesome). I fell off a couple of months after the usual finish time with no issues. For whatever reason I had x2 attacks last night out of the blue. Not bad, maybe kip 3's. I've never started a cycle in early October before. C'est la vie. Anyways, today I'm rushing around trying to get all the required vitamins/minerals ordered to start the regimen again (along with oxygen) and i've a couple of questions.

I've downloaded the most current regimen (Jan. 2017)

- I'm curious if I should order the boron separately to get the optimum dosage?
- any particular brand of vitamin b50 I should get? (I skipped this step last time)
- I remember some talk regarding magnesium and diarrhoea and I'm wondering what type of magnesium would help prevent this while still being effective.
- should I start with antihistamines during the loading period just to eliminate any possible issues with the regimen being effective. Or hold off to see results first.

It's a big wall of words I know. I'm a little rattled right now. Thought I had a plan in place going into the future, but looks like my body has other ideas.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by CH Brain. on Oct 30th, 2017 at 11:04pm
More clues for those reading up on Allergic triggers and genetics, etc.
Batch, you'll be all over this...
Implications for CH???

EDIT: The 'complimentary' Full Article is provided from the ABC news site, so maybe go there first and use their link to Nature Genetics (in blue) to gain access to the full PDF.
I have VPN and can see it, not sure who can or cannot, but I can't download the PDF either...

Source (credited, not plagiarised):

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Full PDF:

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ABC news media:

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Abstract:

Shared genetic origin of asthma, hay fever and eczema elucidates allergic disease biology

Manuel A Ferreira,      Judith M Vonk,      Hansjörg Baurecht,      Ingo Marenholz,      Chao Tian,      Joshua D Hoffman,      Quinta Helmer,      Annika Tillander,      Vilhelmina Ullemar,      Jenny van Dongen,      Yi Lu, Franz Rüschendorf,      Jorge Esparza-Gordillo,      Chris W Medway,      Edward Mountjoy, Kimberley Burrows,      Oliver Hummel,      Sarah Grosche,      Ben M Brumpton,      John S Witte, Jouke-Jan Hottenga,      Gonneke Willemsen,      Jie Zheng,      Elke Rodríguez,      Melanie Hotze et al.

Nature Genetics (2017) doi:10.1038/ng.3985
Received 13 June 2017 Accepted 06 October 2017
Published online 30 October 2017


Asthma, hay fever (or allergic rhinitis) and eczema (or atopic dermatitis) often coexist in the same individuals1, partly because of a shared genetic origin2, 3, 4. To identify shared risk variants, we performed a genome-wide association study (GWAS; n = 360,838) of a broad allergic disease phenotype that considers the presence of any one of these three diseases. We identified 136 independent risk variants (P < 3 × 10−8), including 73 not previously reported, which implicate 132 nearby genes in allergic disease pathophysiology. Disease-specific effects were detected for only six variants, confirming that most represent shared risk factors. Tissue-specific heritability and biological process enrichment analyses suggest that shared risk variants influence lymphocyte-mediated immunity. Six target genes provide an opportunity for drug repositioning, while for 36 genes CpG methylation was found to influence transcription independently of genetic effects. Asthma, hay fever and eczema partly coexist because they share many genetic risk variants that dysregulate the expression of immune-related genes.

Article from ABC news:

Scientists identify genetic risk factors for asthma, hay fever and eczema

More than 100 genetic risk factors for asthma, hay fever and eczema have been identified in a new study that helps shed light on why these conditions often occur together.

The Australian-led study, published today in Nature Genetics, is the first of its kind to pinpoint genetic risk factors common to all three allergic conditions.

It has long been known that there are links between asthma, hay fever and eczema — someone who has one condition is likely to have others.

"We knew that the three diseases shared many genetic risk factors," said lead author Dr Manuel Ferreira of the QIMR Berghofer Medical Research Institute.

"What we didn't know was exactly where in the genome those shared genetic risk factors were located."

To find out, researchers analysed the genomes of more than 360,000 people and identified 136 positions in the genome that are risk factors for developing the three conditions.

"If you are unlucky and inherit these genetic risk factors from your parents, it will predispose you to all three allergic conditions," Dr Ferreira said.

"It doesn't mean you'll get all three, but you are at a higher risk of all three."

Genes affect immune system cells

The 136 genetic risk factors identified were found to influence whether 132 nearby genes were switched on or off.

"We think that these genes influence the risk of asthma, hay fever and eczema by affecting how the cells of the immune system work," Dr Ferreira said.

Immunologist professor Mimi Tang from the Murdoch Children's Research Institute said the research offered new insight into how gene variants can increase the risk of the dysregulated immune responses found in allergic diseases.

"There's always been a very strong association between these three conditions," she said.

"What this research has done has helped us to understand that the pathways driving these conditions might be similar."

Environment factors play a role

The study also looked at how environmental factors affect whether these genes are switched on or off.

"We found that this could be happening for many of the genes we identified," Dr Ferreira said.

"For example, we found one gene — called PITPNM2 — that is more likely to be switched off in people who smoke.

"If this gene is switched off, then the risk of developing allergies increases."

Professor Tang said this finding fits in with the current understanding of what causes allergic disease.

"It's a combination of one's genes and the environments that we're exposed to that determine expression of those genes," she said.

New clues for allergy treatment
By identifying genetic risk factors, researchers will be better able to understand which genes, when not working properly, cause allergic conditions, Dr Ferreira said.

"This knowledge helps us understand why allergies develop in the first place and, potentially, gives us new clues on how they could be prevented or treated," he said.

He said researchers had identified several drugs they believed could target some of the affected genes to treat allergies.

"The first step would be to test those drugs in the laboratory," Dr Ferreira said.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Jan 29th, 2018 at 4:45pm
Bump

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Mar 24th, 2018 at 11:47am
Batch.

Are you still here my friend?

Just to inform the forum that from 22 years of age, every two years, I had the cycle coming for about 2 months.

My last cycle was in 2012. Having the Vitamin d3 taken every day according to batch....6 years of pain free!!!!

I did lowered the vitamin d3 to around 3000 a day.

The beast came again this month and it gets stronger!  :'(
I increased the vitamin d3 to 10,000 a day having also the omega 3 and calcium include boron and k2.

I am not sure about magnesium. I have never took magnesium.

I am home with oxygen.

Last night I had 10 attacks

I am kind of lost  :-[

Batch....What do you suggest?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 24th, 2018 at 4:27pm
Hi Joseph

Are you following the latest "recipe" - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

It has a lot of guidance around what to do at various stages if it isn't working. I'd certainly include magnesium and it may need either more time for 10k iu of D3 to get you back to a pain free level or you can also potentially take more than 10k iu as loading doses (all in the link above).

Hope you're back to being CH pain free soon.

Out of interest, why the drop to 3k iu?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Mar 24th, 2018 at 5:31pm
Hi Joseph,
take 10000iu D3 / day for a week to 10 days. and do take the magnesium. 400mg magnesium citrate. that should help

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Mar 24th, 2018 at 5:33pm
sorry joseph, i meant 50000iu d3/day for a week to 10 days

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 24th, 2018 at 7:37pm
Joseph,

What Thierry said about the loading dose for D3 and the Magnesium.

Magnesium is an important element of the regimen.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Mar 25th, 2018 at 3:39pm
Mike, Thierry, Peter.

Thank you very much for your response.

My blood test arrived with Vitamin D3 of 50.

I will follow what you all suggested and also the article as Mike mentioned.

Why I lowered the d3?
Well....just saying to myself...Hey...I am years pain free...I do not want to give my body extra d3....Stupid ha?!

About the magnesium...I bought it yesterday. I took one with the meal and one before sleep.

Today...throughout all the day i felt like sleepy....Shall I take only one pill?

Again, thank you all guys for help and support.
Peace out and calm.

Joseph

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 25th, 2018 at 5:16pm
Joseph,

You need to stay at about 80 ng/ml to hope to stay pain free.

Also, Magnesium won’t make you sleepy. At worst, too much might keep you visiting the bathroom with increased urgency and frequency. 400mg per day is sufficient.

Best,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Mar 26th, 2018 at 7:27am
Thank you Peter.

By the way, just curious about oxygen...

Why does oxygen help...why specifically on high flow rate.... What happens in our body when we are inhaling 100% oxygen while having the beast attack.... Why it does help and reliev the pain of Cluster Headache...I am very curious to understand.

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 26th, 2018 at 11:38am
Joseph,

An excellent question.

The theory is that vascular dilation causes pressure on the Trigeminal nerve, causing severe pain along the nerve path.

The cause of the vascular dilation is thought to be based in the Hypothalmus, but it is not known how or why this happens.

One of the known causes of vascular dilation is the need for increased oxygen, for example, when we exercise. Conversely, a high oxygen intake causes vascular constriction.

During a Cluster attack, the vascular constriction caused by the  high intake of Oxygen, relieves the pressure on the Trigeminal nerve and the pain subsides.

The image below should make this more clear.

START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Hope this makes sense. Maybe someone else could explain it better.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Mar 26th, 2018 at 2:22pm
Hi Peter.

Thank you for you reply.

Sounds very reasonable. So...what the vitamin d3 comes for...and all the regimen?

It sounds like that every episodic CH person should be chronic!

Why vascular dilation that wake up the beast (touching the nerves) happens ONLY in couple of years for episodic persons?

Isn't related to any kind of inflammation?

Isn't true to say that all the people in the world...that have brain :)...when the brain feels that not enough oxygen arrives...shall cause to vascular dilation and hit the nerves and wake up the beast?!

Sorry for all these questions...I believe we can give reasonable understanding to all of us :)

Let me know if you can help answering some of the questions.

Again...Thank you Peter.
Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 27th, 2018 at 12:01am
Trying to answer some of your questions...

Q. So...what the vitamin d3 comes for...and all the regimen
A. Have a read through the document that Batch wrote that covers everything about D3 and CH - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

Q. It sounds like that every episodic CH person should be chronic!
A. If we could answer this question, it'd probably help make most people who are chronic be episodic and it may well help episodic people become CH free. We just need some researcher to find the right answer(s) to this one.

Q. Why vascular dilation that wake up the beast (touching the nerves) happens ONLY in couple of years for episodic persons?
A. See the previous answer, as we don't yet know exactly what triggers the start and end of a cycle.

Q. Isn't related to any kind of inflammation?
A. Possibly. Anti-inflammatory medication can help control / stop CHs and whilst it is probably than an inflammatory process kicks off CH, it may not be and there is always the possibility that there may be multiple paths to kicking off a CH / CH cycle. Again more research is needed.

Q. Isn't true to say that all the people in the world...that have brain Smiley...when the brain feels that not enough oxygen arrives...shall cause to vascular dilation and hit the nerves and wake up the beast?!
A. This may possibly be part of the trigger process, but most people don't get a CH when they get less oxygen, so again, more research is needed.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Mar 27th, 2018 at 5:38am
Joseph,

As I said in my last post, this is theory and the “how and why” is unknown.

Hopefully, some day, someone will come up with the answers, but until then, we just have to fight the beast as best we can.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Mar 28th, 2018 at 5:34am
Mike and Peter.

Thank you for your reply.

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by scythrops on Mar 28th, 2018 at 8:36pm
I'm an episodic and typically suffer for an 8 week period, usually annually, but I occasionally skip a year. Since moving to Australia 10 years ago, it has been Sep-Oct (used to be Jun-Jul in the UK). I skipped 2 years in a row for the first time ever last year and (falsely) hoped that they'd gone for good...

Anyway, they decided that 2.5 years without was too kind and reared their head in early March. As I do every time I start a cycle, I came on here to look for any developments. This is the first time that I discovered this D3 therapy. It sounded promising so I thought I'd give it a go. However, I was already 2 weeks into cycle and on the back foot, so wasn't well prepared or organised. I haven't been to see my GP or get my 25(OH)D serum levels tested.

I went to the pharmacy and cobbled together what I thought I needed to match the recommended Anti-inflammatory Regimen and was taking this for 10 days at the 50000 IU daily intake. Although I think (hard to properly judge) the severity of my headaches was lower than expected, the frequency seemed fairly typical and had then reached 1 or 2 a day. So I read up some more and discovered that I was missing a couple of the co-factors and potentially most importantly Diphenhydramine hydrochloride, which I'd seen reference to on a UK OUCH post having resulted in effective treatment via the Anti-inflammatory Regimen after two previous failed attempts, once Diphenhydramine hydrochloride had been included.

I suffer from hayfever and regularly take fexofenadine hydrochloride for it, which is a second-generation antihistamine. So I went back to the pharmacy and picked up the two co-factors I was missing (vitamin A and boron), plus a 10 pk of Unisom Sleep Gells (50 mg Diphenhydramine hydrochloride taken before bed).

Now, it's only been two days since I "corrected" my Anti-inflammatory Regimen intake, but I've been pain-free so far! I can still feel it lurking behind my right eye, but it's yet to develop into a headache. I'm about to step down to the 10000 IU maintenance dose of vitD, so I'll see how things go.

Just thought I'd share this with people and I'll post back later once more time has elapsed.

Cheers,
Dan.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 29th, 2018 at 12:34am
Hey Dan,

G'Day Mate...  Thanks for the feedback on your experience with the anti-inflammatory regimen.  A lot of CHers provided the key feeback that has made this regimen as effective as it is...  It's comments like yours that help make it even better...  Good Onya...

Take care,
V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Mar 29th, 2018 at 12:42am
Hey Dan,

Don't be afraid to jump back on the 50,000 IU/day loading dose for a few more days if the CH beast starts jumping ugly after your drop back to 10,000 IU/day as an initial maintenance dose...

I'm a chronic CHer and need 25,000 to 30,000 IU/day vitamin D3 in order to stay CH pain free during the high pollen season that just started a couple weeks ago...  It's likely jacked my serum 25(OH)D over 150 ng/mL (375 nmol/L) but as long as my serum calcium remains within its normal reference range... no harm... no worry...

Take care,
V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Mar 29th, 2018 at 3:16am
G'day from over the ditch

Great to see that you're getting real benefits from D3 which has been something life changing for so many here.

It's also interesting to see how going down under has changed your episodic behaviour. When I was imported to NZ (by my kiwi better half), I had the exact same change with my hay fever, it vanished for a couple of years before starting up again to match the kiwi seasons.

It makes you wonder about the connections between the timing of episodic CH cycles and things like hay fever. I've also found that being on the D3 (plus co-factors), my hay fever too has been a shadow of its former self.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by thierry on Apr 1st, 2018 at 6:18pm
Hey Dan,
great to hear the positive outcome of Batch's D3 regimen on you too.
Many of us are now pain free thanks to Batch's relentless work and research. I'm 5 years now benefiting from the D3 regimen :):):)
A great club to be in. :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Apr 7th, 2018 at 8:08am
Hi Batch....an update.

As I mentioned, I am an episodic CH. It used to visit me every 2 years. Since I took the vitamin D3 I was pain free 6 years.

I lowered the vitamin D3, please don't ask me why,  :-/ and I am now in the cycle for the past month.

My blood test arrived with Vitamin d3 of 50.

I already took 50,000iu for the last week and now continue with 40,000iu for the next week.

I also take Omega 3, magnesium, calcuim with boron and k2 ( complex calcium).

All is taken in the morning.

So far no relief  :-[

I usually get 7-8 attacks a day where 2 of them are "crazy" ones I guess kip 8-9, while sleeping = one after 1 hour of sleep and the second after 6 hours of sleep. Both ugliest attacks are treated by taking 50m"g of Sumstridex pill at night and o2. All others are minors and treated by o2 during the day.

I just wanted to update and would love to hear if someone has any comments.

Thank you all.
Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 7th, 2018 at 11:51am
Hey Joseph,

Been there...  Done it... Wished I hadn't... so know what you're going through. 

You may have an absorption problem so pop 20,000 IU worth of vitamin D3 softgels between your back teeth and swirl the contents under your tongue for at least 10 minutes without swallowing. This sublingual application bypasses the GI tract and sends the vitamin D3 directly into the bloodstream through the mucus membranes under the tongue.  When you feel the next CH attack coming, drink a glass of ice water with lots of ice through a straw then pop another 20,000 IU of vitamin D3 and swirl under the tongue...  Double the Omega-3 fish oil dose as well.

Are you taking the Kirkland 50+ Mature Multi?  If not, pick some up.  You may need a two to three week course of vitamin B 100 complex if you haven't been taking the Mature Multi to get your B vitamins back up to snuff.

The next step is week to 10 day course of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) at 25 mg every four hours throughout the day.  At the same time start Vitamin C at 1000 mg every two hours throughout the day. If there's no joy after 4 days of Benadryl, discontinue as an allergy is not likely. Continue the Vitamin C.  I take 10 grams a day anyway... 

Be careful and not drive while taking this much Benadryl as it will make you drowsy.  If you need to drive during the day, wait until you're home for the day then take 50 mg as you walk through the door and another 50 mg at bedtime.

Starting a probiotic to get the friendly colonies of bacteria and biota in the GI tract called the microbiome happy is always a good idea as is drinking 2.5 liters of water a day. 

A baking soda tonic might help.  You make it with a half teaspoon of good old Arm & Hammer Baking Soda in 4 ounces of water.  Two or three of these a day an hour after eating can help.  The directions are on the box.

Finally there's diet.  Avoid all sugars, fruit juice and soda pop.  Avoid all grain and wheat products including corn and canola oil, bread, pasta and pizza.  Good oils include organic butter, olive oil, avocado oil and my favorite, extra virgin coconut oil.

You can eat all the free range organic meats, poultry and eggs you want.  A serving or two of wild caught fish (Sockeye Salmon, Sea Bass, Halibut, clams and muscles) is also good.  Avoid farmed fish and all shrimp & prawns... They're loaded with antibiotics and likely glyphosate (Roundup) from grain based feed.  You can also eat organic NON GMO green and yellow veggies.  For fruit, an apple or orange a day is fine...

The above is a shotgun approach so should help send the CH beast running...

Take care and please keep me posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Johnno on Apr 8th, 2018 at 3:14am
Intresting case on absorption for me. I have been on the regimen since the beginning of it, take 10000IU per day and always test around 190nmol. Recently got Celiac's disease, confirmed by antibody test (IgA? was high) and D3 level dropped to 138nmol and attacks came back. Maybe Celiac's or even low-level digestive or immune disorders (undiagnosed and not detectable?) are stopping absorbing the D3?
Stopped all that stuff, gluten, wheat, took D3 20000IU a day and it is holding off, just... There's a lot of brown leaves around, yellow pollen and we just had equinox, so... :(

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Apr 8th, 2018 at 12:34pm
Hi there Johnno,

If you have malabsorption issues (my wife has and I know the problems it causes) and Celiac disease, it might be an idea to take your D3 melted under the tongue, as this allows for absorption straight into the blood stream.

I keep my levels at 200nmol, but recently I suffered from Sciatica, which was caused by inflammation in the spine and sciatic nerve, and my D3 levels dropped below 150......wham!!! It took about a week, but I got hit hard.

Try the “melt in the mouth” method for a week and see how that goes.

Best,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Apr 8th, 2018 at 12:47pm
Hi Batch.

Thank you for your quick response.


I reside in Israel and I got the regimen mainly from Solgar.

I use the followings:

1) Vitamin D3 DROPS. Each drop is 1000IU.

2) Magnesium with vitamin B2 link = START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

3) Omega 3 soft gels

4) Solgar Advanced Calcium link = START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

5) And the last one that I started 3 days ago is Solgar Male Multiple (like Kirkland 50+ Mature Multi)  link = START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE


All are taken in the morning according to the regimen. Shall i take all/some with the biggest meal of the day?

I believe (and hope) that all are correct according to the regimen. If you have any comment about my regimen I would love to hear.

I doubled the omega 3 and magnesium and... 4 days left to finalize the "2 week" method of 50,000 and 40,000 vitamin d3....Hope i will feel better  :'(

The only difference is the Solgar Male Multiple that I started 3 days ago.


Joseph.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 8th, 2018 at 2:20pm
Joseph,

The Solgar supplements look fine.  Have you tried the vitamin D3 drops sublingual?  Starting a week to 10 day course of a first-generation antihistamine is a good idea if the CH beast is still jumping ugly... There are several antihistamines in this category so you may need to see your local chemist/pharmacist.  I'd also start the vitamin C at 10 grams a day.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Apr 9th, 2018 at 6:06am
Hi Batch.

Thank you very much.

I will keep you posted.

By the way, if i put the current vitamin d3 drops I have, under the tongue...will it help?

Joseph.


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 9th, 2018 at 11:46pm
Joseph,

Sublingual (under the tongue) is the fastest way of getting vitamin D3 into the bloodstream...  Do it!

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Apr 12th, 2018 at 2:52pm
Hi Batch.

I went to my physician today to ask for the Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL).

I am attaching an image of what I got.

"Benadryl" as trade market name is not available in my country.

Is it OK?

Joseph
20180412_204351.jpg (114 KB | 0 )

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 12th, 2018 at 6:20pm
Joseph,

Spot on...  You're good to go with the Broncho-D.  Diphenhydramine HCL is exactly what you need if an allergic reaction is problematic.  Be sure to add the 8 to 10 grams/day vitamin C.

You're correct.  The brand name Benadryl is formulated differently in different countries.  That's why I add the phamaceutical name, (Diphenhydramine HCL).  In your case the Broncho-D is formulated with Diphenhydramine HCL and a salt (ammonium chloride), but that shouldn't make any difference.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Apr 13th, 2018 at 2:37pm
Based on CH Vitamin Regimen as of January 2017

Need clarification on K2, A, B50, and loading phases:

1. K2 = MK4 1,000 mcg/day & MK7 200 mcg/day.
Take both MK4 & MK7 dosages or choose one?
How is K2 different than K?
My multi has K as phytonadione 75 mcg. Is MK same as menaquinone-7?
My K2 is 100 mcg of menaquinone-7….is this sufficient?

2. A = Retinol 900 mcg aka 300 IU/day.
OK for retinal palmitate?
My multi has A as beta carotene, mixed caratenoids 10,000 IU.

3. B50 = 3 month course, after that the 7 B vitamins in Mature Multi will be sufficient.
Which 7 B vitamins?
Why Mature Multi for younger CH’er?
What are dosages recommended of the 7 B vitamins daily?
My multi has B6 & B12 listed, might be others disguised by another vitamin name!?! B6 is pyridoxine hydrochloride 50 mg & B12 is cyanocobalamin 100 mcg.

4. Loading phase recommended vs required? Imagine there are timeline studies showing advantages of loading phase when completely deficient?

5. Loading phase dosages - besides D3, what other cofactors are important to increase during loading phase and what are those corresponding recommended dosages?

Thanks in advance to any knowledgeable replies. ;)
-Gregg

PS this month of April, the retail chain Vitamin Shoppe is running a month long sale of 50% off store brand vitamin products.



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Apr 15th, 2018 at 11:05am
Hi Batch and How are you?

I would like to give some updates.

I have been taking Broncho-D for the past 3 days. One full spoon after meal and same before sleep. On the first day I took it, I felt significant relief in frequent and severity of my CH... Although some minor attacks arrived…they are much, much lower in pain.
I still take the same regimen and lowered the vitamin D3 to 10,000iu a day (I am after 2 weeks plan of 50k and 40k). I also added the vitamin C daily.

Question:
I am afraid to stop taking the Broncho-D. When should I stop? at the time I will be pain free?
What would happen if I stop taking it and the beast returns ugly?

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 15th, 2018 at 6:00pm
Hey Joseph,

Great question.  From my own experience, the sooner you can wean yourself from the Diphenhydramine HCL, the better.  It works, but too much for too long creates other problems we don't really need.  That said, keep it handy.  The liquid form can be held in the mouth and under the tongue without swallowing for 5 minutes for a sublingual application that works surprisingly well as an abortive in 20 to 30 minutes.

From the decreased frequency and severity of your CH, it's likely you need a higher 25(OH)D serum concentration.  That is easily accomplished with a few more days at a loading dose of 50,000 IU/day then a higher maintenance dose of 15,000 to 20,000 IU/day.

There's sufficient medical evidence that both vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D enter target astrocytes and neurons within the trigeminovascular complex to down-regulate the expression of CGRP, SP, neurokinin A (NKA) and other neuropeptides that are responsible for the neurogenic inflammation and pain we know as cluster headache.   

Data I've collected over the last 8 years suggest that under normal conditions, the therapeutic effect of the anti-inflammatory regimen works in three phases and is dependent on the relative concentrations of serum vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D3. 

During the first phase where some CHers experience a CH pain free response or a significant reduction in the frequency of their CH in as little as one day to a week, this response is due mostly to the serum concentration of vitamin D3.  During the second phase, which lasts a few weeks to a month, the therapeutic effect is due to a combination of vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D3.  During the third phase, the therapeutic effect is due to primarily to the 25(OH)D serum concentration.

The serum half-life of the parent vitamin D3 at 24 hours and the half-life of the 25(OH)D metabolite at 3 to 4 weeks helps explain these three phases.   During the first phase, the serum concentration of vitamin D3 is much higher than 25(OH)D.  In this case, if we stop taking vitamin D3, our CH return in as little as 24 hours as vitamin D3 is consumed in this much time.  In the second phase where the serum concentrations are nearly equal between 60 and 80 ng/mL, it takes a few days to a couple weeks for CH to return if we stop taking vitamin D3.  In the third phase, and particularly for chronic CHers, where 25(OH)D concentrations are well above 120 ng/mL we can go as long as a month or more before CH return after stopping vitamin D3 intake.

Again, this is only during "normal" conditions.  When an allergen such as pollen, mold spores, pet dander and other pollutants are present, all bets are off... Allergens are an antigen that trigger our immune systems into producing Immunoglobulin E (IgE) in response to a sensed threat.  This is called an allergic reaction.  During an allergic reaction, mast cells are triggered into degranulation or dumping of granules containing a long list of stimulus-specific set of mediators including: histamine, heparin, serotonin, prostaglandins, leucotrienes, TNF-α and the list goes on... 

We know that histamine has the capacity to trigger astrocytes and neurons into expressing CGRP, SP and other potent vasodilator peptides that are also responsible for the pain we know as cluster headache.  We also know that CGRP and likely other peptides released trigger mast cells into more degranulation. This creates a circular chemical chain reaction resulting in a flood of CGRP, a.k.a., a CGRP cascade.  When this happens, none of the standards of care CH interventions are effective.  The only courses of action are to block the histamine with a first-generation antihistamine that passes through the blood brain barrier to block histamine H1 receptors at the genetic layer, reduce the concentration of the allergens triggering the allergic reaction or a combination of both.

Diphenhydramine HCL comes in handy in the first case for seasonal pollens.  Mold spores can be more difficult as they can be with us year round. They grow anywhere there's moisture like the drip pan in a frost free refrigerator freezer, air conditioners, showers and laundry.  Keeping these areas clean helps reduce the concentration.  A hypoallergenic, HEPA rated electrostatic dust filter in the bedroom can also help.

One of the other problems in this area are dust mites.

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These little beasties have been with humans for thousands of years.  They infest beddings, carpets and anywhere we walk or sit in the house with fabric covers as they eat dead skin that sluffs off of us constantly.  The problem with dust mites is the poo they drop.  It contains proteins that act as potent allergens that are easily swept into the air we breath. A vacuum cleaner with a HEPA filter will help.  The other method of reducing the concentration of dust mite poo is with hypoallergenic pillow and mattress covers.

So there you have it...  I'd take a couple days vitamin D3 loading dose at 50,000 IU/day then bump the maintenance dose to 15,000 or 20,000 IU/day.  I'm a chronic CHer and as we're in the peak of Alder and Big Leaf Maple tree pollen... I'm taking an average of 30,000 IU/day vitamin D3 to stay CH pain free.  If I miss a day, the CH beast starts jumping ugly...

Of course you'll need to see your PCP for lab tests of your serum 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH after a couple weeks at a stable maintenance dose of vitamin D3.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 15th, 2018 at 7:24pm
Hey Gregg,

Sorry to be so slow in responding...  It was tax time and She, who must be obeyed, wanted it done on time...  It was...

Good questions...  I take Super K with vitamin K1 and the vitamin K2 complex (MK4 and MK7).  MK7 is preferred as it has a longer half-life.  Vitamin K1 is the clotting vitamin that comes from plants.  Vitamin K2 which comes from fermented vegetables, has a different role of drawing calcium from soft tissues and arteries then acting as a catalyst in building bone mineral density.  I think of this process with vitamin D3 pulling calcium from the gut and pushing it into the bloodstream and vitamin K2 acting as the catalyst in causing that calcium to form strong bones.

Regarding Vitamin A (Retinol), 900 mcg (3,000 IU) for men, 700 mcg (2,333 IU) for women is the maximum suggested dose.  We need a little preformed vitamin A (Retinol) but not too much.  900 mcg of retinal palmitate is fine.  You can eat/take as much of the mixed caratenoids you want.

Regarding the vitamin B complex, I added the 3-month course of vitamin B 50 complex at the suggestion of Dr. Stasha Gominak, MD a neurologist who treats patients with sleep, chronic pain and headache disorder using a very similar vitamin D3 protocol.  When I spoke with her at the 20 Workshop on Vitamin D in March of last year in Orlando, FL, she said she now suggests vitamin B 100 complex year round.  I'm considering the same change to vitamin B 100 in the next version of the anti-inflammatory regimen but not year round.  As the Kirkland 50+ Mature Multi contains sufficient amounts of the seven B vitamins and folic acid once any deficiencies have been corrected with the three month course of vitamin B 100, I see no reason to make it a year round part of the anti-inflammatory regimen as 3 months is sufficient to take care of any deficiencies.  My rationale is simple.  As I view this regimen to be a way of life taken daily to prevent CH and maintain good health, I'm trying to keep the total pill count and expense as low as possible.

Regarding loading...  The fastest and shortest path to a CH pain free response is one that increases serum vitamin D3 and its first metabolite 25(OH)D as fast as possible and yet still gives our systems time to adjust to higher doses of vitamin D3.  If improved bone mineral density (BMD) was the only goal, I'd suggest a single oral dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3.  There are several RCTs that have investigated doses this high and found them effective in building BMD.  However, as we also need the enzymes needed to hydroxylate vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D and on to 1,25(OH)2D3, and their rate of production likely takes time to develop, I've opted for the 12-Day or 14-Day loading schedules.  12-Day for ECHers and 14-Days or more for CCHers.  The rationale for this follows...

1,25(OH)2D3 is not the only vitamin D3 metabolite produced when 25(OH)D is hydroxylated.  1,24,25(OH)3D3 and 24,25(OH)2D3 are also produced particularly if the body senses there's too much serum 1,25(OH)2D3 available. This is the body's way of maintaining vitamin D3 homeostasis...  i.e., keeping vitamin D3 in balance...  These two metabolites of vitamin D3 do nothing for us as CHers as they're not genetically active and they're easily catabolized, (broken down and eliminated).  If too much of the available 25(OH)D is hydroxylated to 1,24,25(OH)3D3 or 24,25(OH)2D3 not enough is left to prevent CH.

Hope this covers the bases...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Joseph BIG on Apr 16th, 2018 at 3:55pm
Thank you very much Batch.

I will follow your directions and keep you posted.

Joseph.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by LasVegas on Apr 17th, 2018 at 4:10pm
Thanks Batch, I appreciate your reply. Unfortunately it is written too sophisticated for me to understand. Maybe I need a better night's rest and re-read it ;)

-Gregg

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Apr 24th, 2018 at 11:18am
Hello.  Its been awhile since i have posted here.  Since i started the anti-inflammatory regime in August of 2014, I have totally forgotten about my clusters. 4 months away from being 4 years of no clusters.  I had actually forgotten about having them until i cleaned out my old work truck last week in preparation for my new truck and found my emergency supply of relpax packed away in the bottom of the console.
Just wanted to come back and give an update. I have been on 2400mg-720mg of fish oil & omega 3, 10000 iu d3, and a Centrum multivitamin daily.   
Hopefully I continue to be clusterless!
Thanks once again Batch!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Apr 24th, 2018 at 3:58pm
Great news that you're one of the many people who have gone CH free for multiple years using D3. Long may it continue.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 25th, 2018 at 12:31pm
Hey Sledgehammer,

That's great news.  Thank you for sharing it with us.  Have you had the lab test of your serum 25(OH)D lately?  It would be helpful to know the 25(OH)D serum concentration is keeping you CH pain free. Data from the online survey of CHers taking this regimen at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 indicate an average serum 25(OH)D concentration around 80 ng/mL.

Thanks again for the wonderful news.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by supporting role on Apr 25th, 2018 at 9:08pm
Kia ora Mike,

I'm a new member to the forum, as the wife of a guy who's been getting episodic CH every other year for about 12 years now. He traditionally gets one a night. We are Kiwis too. I have got a lot of info from this forum and am very appreciative of everyone's generosity with info and encouragement.  I have joined not because I have anything to add, sorry, but to ask advice from a NZ perspective.

Second to last cycle he started to wake up with rebound headaches so I investigated O2. This time round I managed to get a D tank of O2, an "up to 15LPM" regulator, and a non rebreathable mask - (so much work -  but so excited in anticipation for my guy).

So he tried it for about 15 minutes and he thought maybe it had subsided a bit and then wanted to stop because he didn't like it (sitting up, feeling nauseous and not liking the sensation of running out of air when the small reservoir bag was emptied and having to wait for it to fill again).

I suspected we should've kept going till 1)he was pain free, and 2) we then turned it down to say 7 lpm and continued for another 10-15 mins 

Sure enough he got a re-attack about an hour later - and reached for the drugs.

I'm not sure what to do next -  I've tried to find a local supplier of a non- rebreathable mask with a larger reservoir with no luck at all. I reckon he'd like the simple mouth piece option like I've seen on Batch's info sheet but I don't know how to access that either here - it looks like it may need a different kind of regulator.

Any ideas please?

thanks  :)


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 25th, 2018 at 10:37pm
Dear Supporter,

I know what you and your husband are going through and the good news is it doesn't need to be that way....

Make a Redneck Oxygen Reservoir Breathing system for your husband.  It will take less than five minutes, a clean kitchen trash bag, the top half of a plastic Coke bottle with cap, the oxygen tubing from the POS disposable oxygen mask that doesn't work (Cut it off at the mask), some Duck Tape and some electrician's tape.

Here's the "How To" as well as the procedure for oxygen therapy your husband will love.

In researching why oxygen regulators with flow rates high enough to support hyperventilation and oxygen demand valves were more effective with shorter CH abort times than a constant flow regulator at 15 liters/minute, I found that lowering serum CO2 was a key component in obtaining fast and reliable CH aborts. 

A lower arterial CO2 content elevates the arterial pH (more alkaline) and this is a more powerful vasoconstrictor than oxygen even at 95% purity from the oxygen concentrator.  The elevated alveolar pH enables blood hemoglobin to upload roughly 15% more oxygen so this turbocharges the blood oxygen flow to the brain to help make the abort even faster and more reliable.

Around 2011 I developed a new method of oxygen therapy called Hyperventilation and Oxygen Therapy that has proven to be just as effective as a 40 liter/minute regulator or an oxygen demand valve in delivering rapid and reliable CH aborts. 

This method of oxygen therapy essentially calls for hyperventilating at forced vital capacity tidal volumes with room air for 30 seconds followed by the inhalation of a lungful of 100% oxygen that's held for 30 seconds before exhaling into the room and repeating the hyperventilation with room air. 

You keep repeating this complete sequence until the CH pain is gone...  usually in 4 to 7 sequences (Minutes).

Hyperventilating with room air accomplishes the same thing as hyperventilating with a regulator set at 40 liters/minute or an oxygen demand valve except it uses no oxygen.  The only oxygen consumed with this method of oxygen therapy is the inhaled lungful ~ 4 liters, that's held for 30 seconds.

This method of oxygen therapy consumes roughly 4 liters of oxygen a minute and results in an average abort time of 7 minutes for a total of 28 liters of oxygen per abort.  That's roughly a tenth the amount of oxygen consumed with each abort with an oxygen demand valve or high flow regulator set at 40 liters/minute.

An explanation of this method of oxygen therapy follows:

Make sure the Redneck reservoir bag is fully inflated. the bottle cap on snugly and the cylinder supply valve is closed. 

Start this procedure by standing to give your diaphragm full range of movement... Dropping your jaw like saying the word "Haw" also helps.  This is important as standing during this procedure helps ventilate the lungs more completely.  Lean against a wall if you get dizzy while using this method of oxygen therapy.  If you get too dizzy, sit erect in a chair.

The next step is exhale forcibly through your mouth until if feels like your lungs are empty...  they're not!  Do an abdominal crunch like doing sit-ups and hold the squeeze until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds.

It sounds terrible but it's a very important part of this method of aborting a CH with oxygen...  This forced exhalation breathing technique will squeeze out another half to a full liter of exhaled breath.  This last volume or end tidal flow of exhaled breath has the highest CO2 concentration and blowing off CO2 is the key to the effectiveness of this procedure.

Then without delay, throw your head and shoulders back and inhale room air as rapidly and deeply as possible until you can't inhale any more.

Again without any delay, use the forced exhalation technique.  Keep repeating this sequence as fast as possible with room air for 30 seconds.  You should be able to complete 10 of these complete cycles in 30 seconds.

At the end of the 30 seconds breathing with this technique, exhale forcibly one more time and hold the squeeze for a good 5 seconds...  then unscrew the Coke bottle cap, place the bottle mouth to your lips and inhale a lung full of 100% oxygen as rapidly as possible and hold it for 30 seconds. Replace the bottle cap, open the cylinder supply valve and set the regulator flow rate at 3 to 4 liters/minute.

I know it's difficult, but try to relax at this point.  While you're waiting, check the regulator is filling the Redneck reservoir bag for the next breath of oxygen.

If you're doing this breathing technique properly, you'll start feeling the symptoms of transient paresthesia and a slight dizziness...  These temporary symptoms of paresthesia include a very slight tingling/prickling of the face, lips, and fingertips.  You'll also experience a slight rush and a chill across your back when you start holding the lungful of oxygen...  Paresthesia is the best indication you've pushed your body into respiratory alkalosis... (Made your blood more alkaline).

At the end of the 30 seconds holding the lungful of oxygen, exhale into the room with a good chest squeeze... then repeat the above sequence until the pain is completely gone...

Be sure to practice this procedure for a few cycles before the cluster beast attacks...

If you start this procedure at the first sign of an approaching CH attack, you should be able to abort the attack in four minutes or less...  and with as little as 16 to 20 liters of oxygen...

If the CH hits while sleeping and is well established or rising, start this procedure as fast as possible.  It will work effectively through pain level 9, (Kip 9), it will just take longer.

I also invented what I call the Redneck Oxygen Reservoir Bag made out of a clean 40 gal trash bag or 30 gal kitchen garbage bag.  I use a plastic Coke bottle with its cap and the bottom cut off.  (The bottle top serves as the mouthpiece), the tubing from an old disposable non-rebreathing oxygen mask, some electrician's tap and some Duck tape.  After the Coke bottle mouthpiece has been inserted through one corner of the bag's bottom and the oxygen tubing through the other corner, I seal both with electrician's tape for an air tight seal then close the open end of the bag with a strip of Duck tape as illustrated in the following photos.

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It turns out my Redneck Reservoir bag works exceptionally well with an oxygen concentrator or low flow rate oxygen regulator.  You make sure the cap is secure on the Coke bottle then plug the oxygen tubing into the barb fitting on the oxygen concentrator and turn it on.  When the Red Neck Reservoir is filled completely, turn off the oxygen concentrator or cylinder supply valve.  The Red Neck Reservoir is now ready for use to abort a CH using the method described above.  All you need to do is unscrew the Coke bottle cap to inhale the lungful of oxygen then replace the cap.  It also helps to turn on the concentrator or open the cylinder supply valve.

Other than the cost at less than $1 in piece parts, there's one more benefit of this contraption... There is no inhalation resistance and your husband will be able to inhale a big lungful of oxygen easily as many times as needed.

Hope this helps...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by supporting role on Apr 26th, 2018 at 1:30am
Hi Batch

Thanks very much, could you please give me the approximate dimensions of that bag?

thanks again



Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Apr 26th, 2018 at 5:02am
Kia Ora (hello to those not too used to how we sometimes greet each other here in NZ)

Batch's kit works well for many.

Another option than many have used is the O2 kit from the store here - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE.

Quite a few people have used this, including myself, with good results.

I've got two regulators, one a 25lpm and one a 15lpm. For quite a while I was commuting to Wellington weekly, so I kept the 15lpm one in an apartment there and the 25lpm at home (where I got most of my CHs).

Using the hyperventilation method as described by Batch, at 25lpm I could abort in about 3-4 minutes. But at 15lpm it took 12-15 minutes, with the difference being very significant with a CH building.

I got my 25lpm regulator from BOC, with one current option being - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE (looks quite like mine). BOC have outlets throughout NZ and make sure it matches the cylinder you have.

One thing that some people have found helpful is to practice the breathing technique when you don't have a CH, which makes it so much easier to just concentrate on the O2 part. Having pain like someone is poking a hot poker into your eye or similar makes a lot of stuff just a bit harder to do.

Have you also read through our O2 page - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE. It has a load of useful info, but validate with your O2 supplier here info about matching tank sizes / colours / regulator types to match the size, etc.

I also wrote up how I got O2 - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE - which has a lot of NZ specific info.

And make sure he doesn't give up on oxygen. Sure it can be tough the first few times, but then so can many things. But you'll read here many times over how it has made a huge difference to people.

Has he also got sumatriptan (Imitrex) injections? Many GPs / neuros just don't know about them so the prescribe the pill form which takes 20+ minutes to work, which is a whole lot of pain. Your GP can prescribe them and he can get a dozen or so for NZ$5 (US$3 - a whole lot cheaper than the US).

Does he have a preventive? I think all the standard ones are available in NZ (I've tried a few over the years).

Have you looked at using D3? - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE

This had been highly effective for many, 80%+, and I'm one of many to be CH free for multiple years. I'd strongly recommend you look at and try it.

Anything else, just ask, either here or via PM.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by supporting role on Apr 26th, 2018 at 5:56am

Thanks very much Mike! Quality answers!

Batch's D3 regime was of particular interest, while I'd read about it before, not in this detail.

Reading that infections can reduce your D3 levels leaving you vulnerable to CH really rang bells. My guy is either in a cycle of skin infections (and associated antibiotics) OR a cycle of CH, but I hadn't made the connection between the two because the circadian association of CH threw me off.

So going to get that underway!

I wonder if I can get a test done in NZ or if I just choose a loading dose at random and get started?

thanks again to both Mike and Batch




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 26th, 2018 at 11:23am
Dear Supporter,

I've sent you a PM with additional information on the anti-inflammatory regimen with Vitamin D3. You can access your PM InBox by clicking on the bold print under the date in the upper left corner of this screen that says You have 1 new message.

Regarding the kitchen trash bags, I used a GLAD 13 gallon size. They hold roughly 40 liters of oxygen and that should be sufficient to abort most CH without refilling during use.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by supporting role on Apr 26th, 2018 at 5:11pm
Hi Batch

Thanks very much for that info, have requested the serum test this morning. Will buy a shopping bag today!

thanks - will keep you posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Apr 26th, 2018 at 5:11pm
Batch is the real guru on O2 and D3, so I'm really just following up with what I've learnt.

The D3 stuff can be sourced within NZ, but the D3 is what most people around the world source from the US via iherb.com, mainly as it works out a lot cheaper that way.

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Infections, allergies and similar can impact D3 levels, which is potentially why for a lot of people who are episodic there is an increase in the number of cycles kicked off in spring / autumn (fall).

You can get the test done for the D3 levels, but it isn't funded through the public health system. But you can get it done through your local medical lab, the name of which will vary through the country. As an example, for Auckland - START PRINTPAGEMultimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or RegisterEND PRINTPAGE. The cost was about $40 the last time I did it.




Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 27th, 2018 at 1:29am
Hey Mike,

Thank you for the stellar support and back up from NZ.  It really helps to have a local expert who knows the local health care "ropes" and "How To" do what needs to be done to get started on the anti-inflammatory regimen.

Data from the March 2018 harvest from the online survey of CHers taking this regimen since December of 2011 has given us some important information that CHers and migrainerus need to know.

For example the mean 25(OH)D serum concentration for Episodic CHers experiencing a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen is 80 ng/mL.  For Chronic CHers, the mean 25(OH)D serum concentration for a favorable response is 95 ng/mL.  Although the numbers are still too low for statistical significance, migraineurs experiencing a favorable response to this regimen have a mean 25(OH)D around 120 ng/mL. Reading between the lines, this data suggest a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day for episodic CHers, 15,000 IU/day for chronic CHers and up to 20,000 IU/day for migraineurs.

The normal distribution plot of 25(OH)D serum concentrations among CHers experiencing a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen is illustrated in the following graphic.

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The message from this chart is this... If you've not responded to this regimen at a dose of 10,000 IU/day, increase the vitamin D3 dose to elevate your 25(OH)D serum concentration.

As the normal reference range for the 25(OH)D lab test is 30 to 100 ng/mL (75 to 250 nmol/L), it is essential that headache sufferers taking this regimen must stay under close supervision of their PCP or neurologist with lab tests of their serum 25(OH)D, calcium and parathyroid hormone (PTH), particularly when taking more than 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3. 

It's also important to note that in the 7 years since the survey of CHers taking this regimen went online, there haven't been any reports of vitamin D3 intoxication/toxicity as evidenced by a serum calcium concentration above its normal reference range or of any side effects that required medical attention.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 5th, 2018 at 11:00am
OK, after over 2 years of being PF on the regemine, I find myself today in week 4 of a cycle. Have load dosed 50K IU of D3 for 2 weeks, and added Benedryl to the regime. This has kept things mostly mild and manageable with O2 and hyperventilation technique. But now I have gone from sea level in Tampa, FL to Phoenix, AZ on “vacation”. Couldn’t bring the the Oxygen for various reasons.  It is high (2596 feet) and very dry here (especially compared to FL).

So question is, will this location change help or hurt the cycle?  Any other suggestions, besides getting some sun, to manage things without O2?

Oh, and for me, airplanes are a trigger in a cycle, so to add to the fun, I had a cluster at 30K feet yesterday. Used a Sumatriptan injection to kill that one...can’t imagine what the guy sitting next to us was thinking!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 5th, 2018 at 1:48pm
Hey SouthernCluster,

You've an interesting problem and great question.  As a Navy fighter pilot, my training in Aviation Physiology tells me we have a drop in the partial pressure of arterial oxygen (PaO2) with an increase in altitude. 

For example, in a commercial airliner flying above 20,000 feet, the cabin pressure is regulated to the equivalent of roughly 7,000 feet in altitude even when the aircraft is flying at 33,000 feet.  At a cabin altitude of 7,000 feet, the PaO2 drops to 70% of normal PaO2 at sea level.  The PaO2 drops below 62% at altitudes above 10,000 feet.  This is where people  start passing out... Not good if you're the pilot...  This is why pilots need supplemental oxygen starting at an altitude of 10,000 feet (3,000 meters).  In your case at 2496 feet altitude, your PaO2 is roughly 90% of what it was at sea level.

We know that PaO2 has a direct effect on cluster headache pathogenesis.  In other words, as the PaO2 drops we have an increased incidence of CH if we're close to the tipping point at sea level.

Given the above, the pregnant question becomes, what do we do to counteract the effects of increased altitude and decreased PaO2 while flying and at a new location well above sea level?  Increasing serum vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D with loading doses as well as adding Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) are the first steps.  Drinking at least 2.5 liters of water a day is also helpful.  You did the loading doses and Benadryl, but that didn't prevent a CH while flying.  That gives us a clear indication that a drop in PaO2 is a potent CH activator.

I suspect the higher serum concentration of both vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D will keep you relatively CH pain free while staying in Phoenix.  Given enough iron and other mineral supplements, the human body adapts to higher altitudes by developing more hemoglobin to carry additional oxygen to the brain and periphery.

My flight preparation usually includes a 50,000 IU vitamin D3 loading dose 4 to 6 hours prior to the flight departure and a 25 mg Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) tablet an hour prior to departure.  I keep an extra tablet of Benadryl and at least 15,000 IU of vitamin D3 handy during the flight. 

I can usually tell when a CH is approaching during a flight so down the Benadryl and pop the 15,000 IU of vitamin D3 between my back teeth and swirl the contents under my tongue until completely dissolved.  This usually prevents the CH from developing during the flight.

I think your problem started when you fell out of a 2 year CH remission.   This doesn't happen without a reason or reasons...  An increase in pollen this time of year is the first reason and a subclinical infection is another. A third reason could be diet that results in a drop in systemic pH (too much acid) and a forth could be an industrial or agricultural pollutant like a herbicide or insecticide.  All of he above put a burden on the immune system and it's need for vitamin D3.  This trickles down to the above conditions triggering the trigeminovascular system into hypersensitivity.  Once that happens, the CH beast is spring loaded to jump ugly.

Things to try... Review your diet and eliminate all sugars, starches, wheat products including grain oils like Canola and Corn oil.  Good oils/fats include organic butter, olive oil, avocado oil and my favorite, extra virgin coconut oil.  No bread, pasta or pizza.  Try to eat Organic NON GMO green and yellow produce, onions, mushrooms and free range organic meats, poultry and eggs.  Wild caught fish is also good once a week.

Taking a good probiotic with 30 to 50 Billion colony forming units (CFU) and at least 10 to 18 strains along with 2.5 liters of water a day can help build a healthy microbiome and in the process, help bring the gut brain axis into a more favorable relationship.

Obviously this is not a compete answer, but I hope what I've provided helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on May 15th, 2018 at 4:15pm
Hello Batch,  I just stumbled on a thread that was started on March 17 wherein a new loading dose of 50,000 D3 for the first 12 days is recommended, being as I wasn't taking any supplements prior to this cycle it sounds like I might be light at the level I was at. I'll up it and get my levels checked in a couple of weeks.
     Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 15th, 2018 at 11:51pm
Hey Sean,

Thanks for the headzup.  Sounds like a plan.  If there's no drop in the frequency of your CH after 3 to 4 days at 50,000 IU/day, start a week to 10 day course of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) at 25 mg every four hours during the day.  The Diphenhydramine will take care of any lingering allergic reactions. 

This much Diphenhydramine will make you drowsy so if you need to drive during the day, take 50 mg of the Diphenhydramine when you're home for the day and at least 25 mg at bed time.

When you've completed the loading schedule, drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for at least two weeks to let your 25(OH)D serum concentration stabilize then go in for the lab tests of your serum 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH.  As long as you're CH pain free or mostly so, your serum calcium is within its normal reference range and your PTH is in the lower third of its normal reference range, you're good to go at a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.

Please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 19th, 2018 at 11:28am
I’m back after a great trip to Canyonlands. Highest point was Bryce Canyon at 8k ft. Several mild clusters during the trip but none that required Sumatriptan injections. Even clusters can’t distract from the beauty of this countryside!  No cluster on the flight home last Saturday either.

So today is day 37 of my cycle. The headaches have almost completely tapered so I tried two glasses of wine last night. Only the most mild of clusters. So I am finally out of the woods. This has been the longest cycle in many years, especially since starting the regimen. But knowing how to manage with O2 and avoiding triggers makes it worlds easier than my first cycle 30 years ago...

Blood test next week if I can find the time.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Jun 4th, 2018 at 2:52pm
Hello Batch, Here's an early update...after restarting on the new loading cycle....halfway through started seeing improvement but really saw improvement when I added one 25mg Benadryl every night, if I screwed up and forgot the next day wasn't very nice. The Benadryl  really turned the tide. Have just gone two consecutive nights with no Imitrex and zero hits or shadows on just the vitamin regime. :) On a side note....while I have a history of back issues, the last two years have been nonstop getting worse by the month...the last two weeks have seen a huge improvement in my back to the point where I almost don't even notice my back back pain. I know it's anecdotal but I'm giving credit to the anti-inflammatory vitamin regime
    Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Jun 19th, 2018 at 5:10pm

Batch wrote on Apr 25th, 2018 at 12:31pm:
Hey Sledgehammer,

That's great news.  Thank you for sharing it with us.  Have you had the lab test of your serum 25(OH)D lately?  It would be helpful to know the 25(OH)D serum concentration is keeping you CH pain free. Data from the online survey of CHers taking this regimen at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 indicate an average serum 25(OH)D concentration around 80 ng/mL.

Thanks again for the wonderful news.

V/R, Batch


No i haven't had it checked in 3 years....probably should have.

Unfortunately, not long after making my above post, I got down in my back real bad. Worse than I've ever been. I had a disc pushing on my sciatic nerve and was in bad shape.  Went to the doctor and ended up with several different pills, some prednisone pills and a shot of cortisone.  My back got better in a couple weeks, but my gut was torn up from the medication. I quit taking everything all together in an attemp to fix it from the muscle relaxers and NSAIDs.  Last week I started having shadows for a couple days. I started the d3 and fish oil back but i guess it wasn't soon enough.  Although my attacks aren't as bad as I remember them before, I am having them.  I gotta get myself built back up soon!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jun 26th, 2018 at 2:12pm
Hey Sledgehammer,

The lab test for your serum 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH should be an annual affair.  That way you know for sure what your 25(OH)D is, that your serum calcium is within its normal reference range so you can change the vitamin D3 dose accordingly. 

Allergic reactions raise havoc with with this regimen's capacity to prevent CH at the usual maintenance dose of 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day.  If you suspect an allergy and the CH beast starts jumping ugly, (that's a valid indication of an allergic reaction), then a few days at a loading dose of 50,000 IU/day and a temporary new maintenance dose of 20,000 to 25,000 IU/day plus Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) at 25 mg every four hours through the day for a week to ten days usually gets you back CH pain free relatively fast.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Jun 26th, 2018 at 9:47pm

Batch wrote on Jun 26th, 2018 at 2:12pm:
Hey Sledgehammer,

The lab test for your serum 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH should be an annual affair.  That way you know for sure what your 25(OH)D is, that your serum calcium is within its normal reference range so you can change the vitamin D3 dose accordingly. 

Allergic reactions raise havoc with with this regimen's capacity to prevent CH at the usual maintenance dose of 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day.  If you suspect an allergy and the CH beast starts jumping ugly, (that's a valid indication of an allergic reaction), then a few days at a loading dose of 50,000 IU/day and a temporary new maintenance dose of 20,000 to 25,000 IU/day plus Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) at 25 mg every four hours through the day for a week to ten days usually gets you back CH pain free relatively fast.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Yes sir, after my last cluster period was over, and i was in remission for almost 4 years, i didn't take the regimen every single day. I usually only took it on my work days which was 4 or 5 days a week and only 5000iu of d3 so i didnt worry about the test much since i wasn't having issues.

I dont think I've had any allergic reactions.  I think i got a lot of inflamation built up with my back issues, combined with the back medicine, and my poor diet is what got it started back.  Also, I quit smoking at my last cluster period.  For some not smart reason, i started smoking some again at the first of the year.  What turned into a pack a week ended up back to a pack a day like old times.  With my research, I believe that played a big part in the back and head issues.  I have since quit again and dont plan on starting back this time.

The good news is only very slight shadows the last 2 days. Hopefully things are looking up again.

On another not, I want to warn others about rebound headaches. I had a perscription of Relpax a few years ago. They worked great then.  I had several left over so i wasnt in a hurry to see a doctor this go around.  I forgot, and being not smart again to look it up, that your only supposed to take 2 a week.  I was taking 2 a day on some days!  Fortunately, I figured out what was going on before it got too bad, but enduring that was not fun.

Hopefully im on the uphill drag now!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by sledgehammer on Jul 6th, 2018 at 10:03pm
I got the rest of the regamin ingredients i was missing, and have been mostly pain free for 10 days now.  I still get a very brief kip6 for a minute or so a few times a day, but its so brief i can deal with it fairly easy... Kinda like a reminder. I didn't pass the Alcohol test last Wednesday though....i think I'll wait awhile before i try again  ;D. 

I also think some essential oils helped me a few times.  My wife was a big oil freak a couple years ago. I always thought they were snake oil.  I even had her convinced the same.  I ran across some things online that convinced me to try them...after all whats the worse that can happen, i spend a hundredish bucks and it dont help?  As most of you guys know thats a small price imo for some relief. So i got some Cypress and Frankincense, she already had some.  Unfortunately, I didn't get to try them enough to draw a set in stone answer, but i am convinced they do help....and coincidence or not, I think I aborted 2 CH with those oils.  I dont like to post things im not totally sure about, but maybe someone else can try them out and possibly get some relief.  I will definitely experiment with them more if i get the chance, but honestly i hope i dont get to!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by yesdog27 on Jul 13th, 2018 at 11:53am
Need some help. Episodic CH for 30 years. 6 weeks into this cycle. On D3 regimen for 4 weeks now with no relief. Tested yesterday and at 113 ng/ml. Tried Benadryl every 4 hours for a week also without results.
Any suggestions?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 13th, 2018 at 12:55pm
YesDog,

Are you taking all the other cofactors?  Are you taking the vitamin B complex?

Some CHers require a higher 25(OH)D serum concentration ≥140 ng/mL to achieve a CH pain free response.  Try a 50,000 IU/day loading dose for two to three days.  If the frequency and severity drops by the second or third day, You likely need a higher 25(OH)D serum concentration.

I've also sent you an email...

Take care and please keep us posted.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by yesdog27 on Jul 13th, 2018 at 5:17pm
I’m taking all the cofactors: fish oil, multi mature, b-complex, magnesium, super k.  I’ve also been on the loading dose for the last week.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Jul 14th, 2018 at 12:21am
Hello Yesdog,  Unfortunately I know what you're going through. After getting one week into the loading dose and adding Benadryl to the mix I went completely pain free for 3 weeks even though the episode was still on. Didn't need O2 or my nightly Imitrex, even drank alcohol. Two weeks ago I spent a week in the sunshine on the dry side of our State (didn't bring the O2...big mistake) and all that success vanished the first night over there. Started back on a high level of D3 and taking Benadryl 4 times a day and showing improvement but my tank of O2 is still dropping fast and I don't dare skip my Imitrex. Almost 12 weeks in now and no end in sight.
    Have you had success with D3 in the past? I did some field mowing which might have triggered my Ch's and also was 2000 feet higher than where I normally live. I'm curious if there was any changes in your lifestyle that may be a factor. Good luck, I know it doesn't help but a least we understand what you're going through.  Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 14th, 2018 at 12:44am
Hey Sean,

Common problem... Move to a new location, new allergens and BANG! the CH beast up and jumps ugly.  I've had it happen to me several times.  Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) is only part of the solution.  You'll need to restart the vitamin D3 loading schedule at 50,000 IU/day until the beast fades away.  It could take a few days or a week or more to achieve a CH pain free state.  Stay at 50,000 IU for two more days after going pain free then drop back to a maintenance dose 5,000 IU/day higher than normal. Double the magnesium split am/pm and double the Omega-3 fish oil as well while on the loading schedule.

This has worked like magic for me every time it happens.

I've also switched over to Bio-Tech 50,000 IU water soluble capsules.  They get into the bloodstream a lot faster than the oil based vitamin D3 softgels.  At 23 cents per 50,000 IU capsule, they're also the least expensive. Taking one of these capsules every 5 days works out to less than 5 cents a day for an average dose of 10,000 IU/day.  The Nature's Bounty 5000 Iu softgels run 12 cents a day for 10,000 IU of vitamin D3.

Here's the link:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Jul 14th, 2018 at 1:29am
Thank you, Batch. It's ordered! I did not increase the magnesium or the fish oil so I'll give it a shot. Does D3 stay in one's system long enough to go 5 days between dosing? I also did not go back to a full dosing level so that might help too.
   Thanks again,  Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 14th, 2018 at 8:34am
Sean,

The short answer is yes...  The following graphic from a study done by Dr. Robert Heaney and several other vitamin D3 experts illustrates the time course serum concentrations of vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D3 after a single oral dose of 100,000 IU vitamin D3

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The vitamin D3 concentrations are expressed in nmol/L so 50,000 IU of vitamin D3 should peak out around 250 nmol/L and drop to 50 nmol/L by day five.  There's an increase in serum 25(OH)D at the same time so the total of vitamin D3 and 25(OH)D3 should still provide a therapeutic effect on CH at day five. 

This also assumes you've been CH pain free for at least a week or longer before trying this method of vitamin D3 dosing.

I'm still battling an allergic reaction so I'm staying CH pain free after a 50,000 IU dose of vitamin D3 for at least 72 hours (an average daily dose of 16,700 IU over the three days).  After that I can feel the CH beast prowling.

Hope this helps.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by yesdog27 on Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:43am
This is the second time I’ve tried D3, never with any success. This is my first cycle in 5 years. I’ve managed to keep it at bay with a prophylactic verapamil regimen every spring. I’m getting hit every morning and evening at a minimum with some really bad ones. Luckily I had an old stash of sumatriptan I held on to that has been a life saver. I tried busting this time also for the first time with no success at all.

I’ll try doubling the magnesium and fish oil as well to see what happens.

The only difference in lifestyle I can think of is higher than normal work stress, which is what I think triggered my last cycle 5 years ago also.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE on Jul 15th, 2018 at 10:21pm
Yesdog, Yeah, stress is never good in so many ways. I've tried the D3 regimen the last 4 or 5 cycles with limited success till this time when (for awhile) I went totally PF but this is also the the first time I loaded 600,000 units of D3 in 12 days which I think made the difference. Following Batch's directions to the letter may be the key. It has never worked overnight for me, each time even with limited success it's taken awhile but 50,000 a day for 12 days was the quickest I ever had a positive response..about a week. Give it a good try, you've got nothing to lose! I sure hope you've got oxygen cause without sumatriptan injections it's the last line of defense against a bad hit.   Sean

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Jul 16th, 2018 at 5:17pm
Following Batch’s directions to the letter IS the key. Take it from a Chronic who knows.

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jul 28th, 2018 at 8:58pm
Hello all! Batch!  I have a question...does anyone have a chart with the loading doses for the D3 regimen and also the daily maintenance doses after loading?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 28th, 2018 at 11:18pm
Hey Andy,

Good question.  The standard loading dose is based on survey data for the average baseline 25(OH)D serum concentration of 23 ng/mL (57.5 nmol/L) before starting the anti-inflammatory regimen.  The following two charts illustrate the normal distribution of 25(OH)D lab results taken before start of regimen and after 30 days from start of regimen including the loading schedule.

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The average 25(OH)D response to a total loading dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 is 60 ng/mL (150 nmol/L) on top of the baseline serum concentration.  This figure has been proven by several studies of a single oral loading dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3.

Accordingly, that totals per the following... 23 + 60 = 83 ng/mL (207.5 nmol/L), which is also the target serum concentration for a therapeutic response to vitamin D3, i.e., a CH pain free response per the chart above.

Over the last few years, this standard loading dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 spread over 12 days at 50,000 IU/day has worked effectively for most CHers.   It also turns out that over time (1 to 3 months) a vitamin D3 dose of 10,000 IU/day results in a stable 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 ng/mL (200 nmol/L)...  The online survey data confirms this figure.

So... for the CHer new to this regimen, see your PCP/GP for a blood draw for the 25(OH)D lab test then start this regimen with the accelerated vitamin D3 loading dose of 50,000 IU/day for 12 days then drop back to the initial maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day.

Assuming a pain free response or at least a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of CH, the CHer will stay at this maintenance dose for 30 days the go back to his or her PCP/GP for lab tests for serum 25(OH)D, calcium and PTH (Parathyroid Hormone).  As long as serum calcium remains within its normal reference range and PTH is in the lower third of its normal reference range, you're good to go at the present maintenance dose and the actual 25(OH)D serum concentration doesn't really matter except as a reference value for a favorable/pain free response.

The answer to why start this regimen with a 12-Day loading schedule is illustrated in the following graphic.

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As you can see, it can take 3 to 4 months for the time course 25(OH)D serum response to a dose of 10,000 IU/day to reach a stable 25(OH)D serum concentration of 80 ng/mL where most of us experience a favorable response to this regimen.  As all of us want a pain free response as fast as possible, you can also see that the 12-Day loading schedule elevates serum 25(OH)D to 80 ng/mL in 12 days taking 50,000 IU/day (Total loading dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3).

The initial loading schedules were based on spreading the 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 over 2 weeks and 4 weeks.  I did this to give our bodies time to respond to these doses by generating the capacity to produce the needed enzymes to hydroxylate vitamin D3 all the way to 1,25(OH)2D3, the genetically active metabolite we need for genetic expression and the down-regulation of CGRP. Both worked very well but took longer than the 12-Day loading schedule... which is equally effective in achieving a CH pain free response. So there's the reason why we need to do the 12-Day vitamin D3 loading schedule.

The above discussion assumes an average response to dose...  As you can see that response has a wide variation.  This is why some CHers will need to stay on the loading schedule a day or more longer and adjust their maintenance dose upward to 15,000 IU/day.

We've also found that allergic reactions play heck with this regimen's capacity to prevent CH.  Accordingly if one is present or suspected, we need a week to 10 day course of a first-generation antihistamine like Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) and a higher vitamin D3 maintenance dose to achieve a favorable response.

Kids and adults under 115 lbs may need a lower vitamin D3 maintenance dose.  If the 25(OH)D lab test after 30 days at a stable dose of 10,000 IU/day results in a pain free response, but a 25(OH)D serum concentration above 100 ng/mL (250 nmol/L), then the following rule of thumb dosing guide may be indicated.  In this case these CHers need a vitamin D3 dose based on 50 IU of vitamin D3 per pound of body weight per day.  Doing the math, a 100 lb adult would need a vitamin D3 maintenance dose of 5,000 IU/day.

This isn't rocket science... If the CH return after lowering the vitamin D3 dose to 5,000 IU/day, bump the dose back up to 10,000 IU/day and make sure to get these lab tests annually.

Of course we need to take all the cofactors and start a healthy diet free of all sugars, wheat products and drink at least 2.5 liters of water a day to ensure that favorable response.

Hope that answers your questions...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jul 28th, 2018 at 11:37pm
Thank you that is exactly the read that I was looking for!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by kimji523 on Jul 31st, 2018 at 2:39pm
Hi,
I suffer from episodic cycles that last about 3 weeks and occur every 10-12 months.  My last one was august of 2017.  Since then, I have been religious with your regimen with 10000 IU/day.  Since May, anticipating my next cycle, I upped it to 20000 everyday.  So I have been taking 20000 IU daily for about 4 months.  Well, today, cycle returned.  So can I safely assume, sadly, that I am the smaller percentage that didn't benefit from the regimen?

One thing to note is that I have never had a blood drawing for my D3 levels.  I just sort of assumed that taking that much D3 for so long would keep the level up.  Could my levels still not be high enough while taking that much for that long of a time?

Thanks,
TK

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Jul 31st, 2018 at 5:59pm
Hey TK,

Wrong assumption.  What you're experiencing happens to most of us, me included...

You may be suffering from an allergic reaction and this plays heck with the capacity of the anti-inflammatory regimen to prevent your CH.  These allergic reactions can be subclinical, i.e., no obvious or outward symptoms like allergic rhinitis, but they can still be cooking away stopping vitamin D3 from doing its thing to prevent your CH.

An allergen insult to mast cells triggers them to degranulate/release histamine, heparin and a bunch of other neuroinflammatory agents.  The histamine in turn triggers the release of CGRP from astrocytes and neurons within the trigeminal ganglia and elsewhere throughout the body.   CGRP (Calcitonin Gene-Related Peptide) is the nasty neuropeptide responsible for neurogenic inflammation and the pain we know as CH. 

It gets worse...  The CGRP in turn triggers mast cells to release even more histamine.  This circular chemical chain reaction results in what I call a CGRP cascade.  When that happens, none of the CH interventions work very well if at all.  This circular chemical chain reaction continues until one or more of the chemical reactants are consumed at which time the chain reaction ends... and so does the CH...  Unfortunately, our bodies recharge the mast cells, neurons and astrocytes in a matter of an hour or so.  At that point the CH cannon is charged, primed and ready to fire...

The solution is to take a first-generation antihistamine like Benadryl (Diphenhydramine HCL) at 25 mg every four hours throughout the day.  First-generation antihistamines cross the blood brain barrier (BBB) to block histamine H1 receptors at the genetic layer and this lower's the expression of CGRP and allows vitamin D3 to further down-regulate its expression.  Second- and third-generation (Non-Drowsy) antihistamines cannot pass through the BBB so are less effective for CHers suffering from an allergic reaction.

Additional supplements like Turmeric (curcumin) at 1000 mg/day, 300 to 600 mg/day CoQ10 and 4 to 6 grams a day of vitamin C can also help.

Diet and hydration are also essential... No sugars, soft drinks or fruit juice.  No wheat products including bread, pasta, cereal, crackers, pizza and grain oils. 

Good fats include organic butter, olive oil, avocado oil and my favorite, extra virgin coconut oil.  Take the Turmeric with a tablespoon of coconut oil to improve absorption and efficacy.  Eat NON GMO Organic green and colored veggies, free range meats, poultry and eggs as well as a serving a week of wild caught fish.  Sockeye and Coho salmon are great this time of year. 

Avoid farmed fish, shrimp and prawns. They're fed antibiotics and GMO grains high in glyphosate (Roundup).  As glyphosate is a herbicide, it kills off the friendly colonies of bacteria and biota living in our GI tracts call the microbiome.  Better than 70% of our active immune system resides in and around the microbiome... if it's healthy. 

Taking a good probiotic can help rebuild the microbiome with more of the friendly colonies.  Another reason to avoid sugars and wheat starches is they cause the not so friendly yeast colonies in the microbiome to bloom out of control making yeast, candida and thrush infections more common.  They also act as a CH trigger that keeps on giving...  A tablespoon of coconut oil at bedtime, eating a serving of grapefruit a day along with a couple lemons can help. A good probiotic called TotalFlora15 can also help if you suspect one of these fungal infections.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nik on Sep 4th, 2019 at 5:27pm
Hi all,
I suffer from CH for about 8 years, used to appear on season changes, but in the past year it don't leave me (now i am taking steroids and the pain appear at night, 1 or 2 time, don't know what will happen when i'll sop with the steroids).

I really want to try "Anti-Inflammatory Vitamin D3 Regimen"
what I kinda got lost here(105 pages..).

Can someone please post a list of vitamins that i need to take, and how much for day?
* it will really help if you'll post a list with links to products in iherb website.
** how long should I take the all vitamins ?

Thanks a lot!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Peter510 on Sep 4th, 2019 at 5:53pm
Nik,

Welcome.

The link below will give you all  the information you need. Details of the Vitamins and dosages are set out in the attachment.

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Any questions, let us know.

Best,

Peter.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nik on Sep 4th, 2019 at 6:05pm
Thanks Peter, i will try to assemble a list from iHerb and list it here to see if it's ok (just to be sure that I will take the right ones)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 6th, 2019 at 8:11am
Hey Nik,

The following photo illustrates the basic anti-inflammatory regimen supplements by brand and daily maintenance doses I take that have kept me CH pain free.  You can also download the anti-inflammatory regimen treatment protocol at the following link:

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I switched to the Bio-Tech D3-50 50,000 IU (1,250 mcg) water soluble form of vitamin D3 eight months ago after finding it to be faster acting with a higher bioequivalence in elevating serum 25(OH)D3 than the same dose of the oil-based liquid softgel vitamin D3 formulations.  I've taken the rest of these supplements for the last 8 years.

You can buy all of these supplements from amazon.com and if you live outside the US, from iherb.com.

It's important to see your PCP/GP to discuss this regimen and to obtain lab tests of your serum 25(OH)D3, calcium and PTH (parathyroid hormone) prior to starting the anti-inflammatory regimen.  The values of these lab tests will serve as a baseline for a second set of these same labs 30 days after starting this regimen.  The 25(OH)D serum concentration will also help determine the total vitamin D3 loading dose needed to start this regimen.

For example, the mean baseline 25(OH)D3 serum concentration before start of regimen from the online survey of 313 CHers taking this regimen to prevent their CH is illustrated in the following normal distribution chart.

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As you can see, the mean 25(OH)D3 serum concentration is 24.4 ng/mL.  The following chart illustrates survey data for 25(OH)D3 lab results taken ≥ 30 days after start of regimen.

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The mean 25(OH)D3 serum concentration among the 257 CHers (82.1%) who experienced a favorable response to this regimen is 80 ng/mL.  We've found that a total vitamin D3 loading dose of 600,000 IU of vitamin D3 (15,000 mcg) results in a gain of 60 ng/mL 25(OH)D3 on top of the baseline 25(OH)D.  That works out to a vitamin D3 loading schedule of 50,000 IU/day (1,250 mcg/day) for 12 days.  We call this the 12-Day accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule. The following chart illustrates the benefit of a loading schedule like this as opposed to just taking 10,000 IU/day (250 mcg/day) vitamin D3.

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Several studies have shown the average time course 25(OH)D3 serum concentration response at a dose of 10,000 IU/day (250 mcg/day) could take upwards of two months to reach the therapeutic response range for 25(OH)D3 around 80 ng/mL where most CHers experience a significant reduction in the frequency of their CH or a complete cessation of CH symptoms.

What's important to note here is if there's been no significant reduction in the frequency of CH by the end of the 12-Day accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule, an additional 4 to 6 days at a loading dose of 50,000 IU/day (1,250 mcg/day) of vitamin D3 may be needed.  At the completion of the accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule, drop back to an initial maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day (250 mcg/day) vitamin D3.

Again, it's important to see your PCP/GP for a second set of labs for your serum 25(OH)D3, calcium and PTH 30 days after start of regimen.  As long as serum calcium remains within its normal reference range, the actual 25(OH)D3 serum concentration doesn't really matter.  If serum calcium remains within its normal reference range there's no hypercalcemia, a.k.a., vitamin D3 intoxication/toxicity.  It's normal for the PTH serum concentration to drop to a low normal range as this is part of calcium homeostasis.

Following the above should get you started on the road to CH pain free living.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nik on Sep 9th, 2019 at 9:57am
Thanks Batch! this is helping, alot..
you wrote that after 2 months, I should be pain free..
this is the time that I should wait, or it can happen before?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by nik on Sep 9th, 2019 at 11:21am
1. D3-50 - iherb.com/pr/Bio-Tech-Pharmacal-Inc-D3-50-Cholecalciferol-100-Capsules/55186
2. Magnesium 400 mg - iherb.com/pr/Nature-Made-High-Potency-Magnesium-400-mg-60-Softgels/76915
3. Fish Oil 1200mg - iherb.com/pr/Nature-Made-Fish-Oil-1200-mg-100-Softgels/40399
4. **(i can't find it on iHerb..) Mature Multi(i can see 400 capsules)
5. **(i can't find it on iHerb..) super K (cant really see)

in the image that you have posted, i can see 5 bottles (2 of them i cant find in the source post.. ,
but in the source post i can see 9 bottles (the post that descibe the method, have an image update Jan 2017, cant post links cause i didn't reah 10 posts yet),
what about the other 5
1. Calsium
2. Vitamin A (Retinol)
3. Vitamin B 50
4. Zinic
5. Boron

Also, what is number 4, in you list (Mature Multi- can you please help me find it on iHerb?)?
what is number 5, in you list (super K- can you please help me find it on iHerb?)?

Thanks a lot!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 9th, 2019 at 9:19pm
Nik,

Sorry about the old photos.  I'm taking new photos of the latest basic regimen. 

You can order the Kirkland brand Adult 50+ Mature Multi and LifeExtension Super K with advanced K2 complex from amazon.com.  If you're here in the US, you can also buy the Kirkland Mature Multi at Costco.

The following links at amazon.com and iherb.com should work just fine.

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If you can't get the Kirkland 50+ Mature Multi from amazon you can order a comparable product from iherb.com at the following link:

21st Century, Sentry Senior, Multivitamin & Multimineral Supplement, Adults 50+, 265 Tablets

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Order 4 of the 90 capsule bottles for a year's supply.

Hope this helps. Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Oxygen Worshipper on Sep 14th, 2019 at 7:38pm
I admire your efforts and taking the time to share.  Thank you.

One thing that threw me off in your posting was the comment about Margaritas.  When I'm in an episodic cluster, alcohol almost always sparks a CH.  I thought that was the same for all CH sufferers. 

Not you?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by AussieBrian on Sep 14th, 2019 at 10:35pm

Oxygen Worshipper wrote on Sep 14th, 2019 at 7:38pm:
...alcohol almost always sparks a CH.  I thought that was the same for all CH sufferers. 

G'day,  Worshipper,  and welcome aboard the good ship ch.com.

In truth there's a very limited few of us who can drink alcohol right through a cycle with no ill effect at all but we tend to stay a bit quiet about it to avoid the hate mail from others.

Other people have no identifiable triggers at all and I truly doubt any two of us are the same so it's all just part of the adventure of CH.

Are you trying the D3 regimen?  Many people have had great success with it.





Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mike NZ on Sep 15th, 2019 at 9:12pm
Hi and welcome Oxygen Worshiper

I think there are quite a few of us who are in awe of what oxygen can do to a CH.

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I'm one for whom alcohol doesn't trigger a CH, although it can be a migraine trigger for me, so I'm only half "immune".

I'll second Brian's suggestion about D3, it ranks up there with O2 for how amazing it can be.

Tell use more about your CH and we'll see what we can suggest.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:52am
Hey Nik,

I missed your post last week. The following chart illustrates the 30 day response rate.  As you can see, some CHers experience a significant drop in the frequency of their CH after the first or second dose. 80% of CHers who start this regimen experience this significant response or better yet a pain free response in the first 30 days. 

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The most of the remaining 18% who didn't respond in the first 30 days, usually do so with higher maintenance doses of 15,000 to 25,000 IU/day.

The two month figure for a response comes into play if you don't do the 12-Day accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule as that's how long it could take to reach a 25(OH)D3 therapeutic serum concentration without loading

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by MDR on Feb 10th, 2020 at 1:45pm
UP UP so new people can find this

Mark

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Mark Olson on Feb 25th, 2020 at 3:02am
Batch,

It has been many, many months since I have lurked here on CH.com.  The reason is that I rarely even think about CH any more.  I have been on the regimen for a couple of years now, keeping my D3 levels right around 100ng/ml.  While I still know when I have an episode due to some shadows and a few very minor headaches, my life has been pretty much back to normal.  I avoid alcohol during my CH windows, since they still will trigger headaches, but that is a small price to pay to be essentially pain free.

So thank you Batch.  You have completely changed my life.

Mark  :)

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Feb 25th, 2020 at 4:46am
Hey Mark,

Thank you for the kind words.  They mean a lot to me.

One of the major findings over the last few years has been the impact of allergic reactions on the frequency, severity and duration of CH.  In short, the histamine released during an allergic reaction to a CHer is like Kryptonite to Superman...  bad news. 

Moreover an allergic reaction can flip a CHer out of a long period of remission even with a 25(OH)D3 serum concentration over 150 ng/mL.  That has happened to me at least twice.  Fortunately, the solution is to start loading vitamin D3 at 50,000 IU/day and to start a week to 10-day course of a first-generation antihistamine like Benadryl  (Diphenhydramine HCL) at 25 mg every four hours.  It's usually taken 4 to 5 days to get back to a completely CH pain free state so I can drop back to my usual maintenance dose of vitamin D3.

I have a section on this problem in the revised version of the treatment protocol I hope to have ready to post soon.

Thank you again for the kind words and take care.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Sean McE2 on Mar 27th, 2020 at 5:48pm
Just an update on well the D3 program works. I haven't been able to post for a long time as the site won't recognize my name or password and won't let me create a new one with my present email address. I finally gave up and used the "woman who must be obeyed's" email address to create a new account. They came early this year, first week of February and as I wasn't on the program I had to ramp up.  6 days @ 50000 D3 along with the cofactors and then dropped to 20000 and then to 15000 a day. After starting I relied on O2  for a week but one week in and I didn't even need that. My cycle is stlll on (occasional shadows) but life is good, PF, all I can say is Thank you Batch.   Sean

As I'm in the Seattle area we holed up 3 weeks ago, been out once to pick up a script for mama. We fortunately had the foresight to see this coming and what necessities we needed we took care of back in February. Venison and fish are gonna be on the menu for awhile!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 9th, 2020 at 2:37am
Hi Batch, I've been reading vitamin D2 stays in your system for around 3 days, but vitamin D3 can last up to 3 weeks. So, by taking 50,000iu of BIOTECH D3-50 every week, can't that, build up from 7,142iu/day, to 21,426iu/day?

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 9th, 2020 at 6:47am
Hey Hoppy,

Good question.  Taking one D3-50/week works out to an average of 7,100 IU/day. A number of studies found little difference in 25(OH)D3 response to either daily doses of 10,000 IU/day or weekly dosing at 70,000 IU once a week.

A number of us have found the Bio-Tech D3-50 50,000 IU water soluble vitamin D3 has a higher bioequivalence in elevating serum 25(OH)D3 than the same dose of the oil-based liquid softgel vitamin D3 formulations.

No matter the vitamin D3 dose, the time course 25(OH)D3 serum concentration curves all follow the same pattern eventually leveling off as illustrated in the following graphic from a study by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD.

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The reason 25(OH)D3 levels off and doesn't continue to rise is due to a function of calcium homeostasis where cells start expressing 24-Hydroxylase vitamin D3.  Calcium homeostaysis is a complex set of mechanisms that control serum calcium concentrations and keep them in a very narrow range.

The 24-Hydorxylase enzyme adds a hydroxyl group [OH] to the 24th position on the vitamin D3 molecule and its metabolites resulting in 24-Hydroxy vitamin D3 a.k.a., 24(OH)D3, 24,25(OH)2D3 and in a few cases 1,24,25(OH)3D3.

The interesting thing about 24-Hdroxylation is these 24-Hydroxylated vitamin D3 metabolites break down rapidly and are either filtered out by the kidneys and dumped over the side in urine or they're filtered by the liver and passed through the GI tract. 

Ultimately, the level of 24-Hydroxylation consumes equal amounts of vitamin D3 taken causing an equilibrium in 25(OH)D3, i.e., flattening of the serum concentration curve as illustrated in the above chart.

An example of the higher D3-50 bioequivalence follows.  10,000 IU/day (70,000 IU/week) of the oil-based liquid softgel vitamin D3 results in a mean 25(OH)D3 response of 80 ng/mL while 50,000 IU/week of the Bio-Tech D3-50 results in a mean 25(OH)D3 response of 80 ng/mL. 

Here is where the boron in the Kirkland Adult 50+ Mature Multi comes into play.  Boron down-regulates the genes that express 24-Hydroxylase.  Less 24-Hydroxylase means a higher 25(OH)D3 response.  The 150 µg of boron in the Mature Multi is worth an additional 3 to 5 ng/mL response taking one Bio-Tech D3-50 a week.  However, if you take 3 mg/day boron with the one Bio-Tech D3-50 a week, the 25(OH)D3 response nearly doubles to 150 ng/mL.

The following chart illustrates lab results of my serum 25(OH(D3, calcium and PTH over the last three years.

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My PCP is very familiar with my vitamin D3 intake and 25(OH)D3 response and has no problem with my 25(OH)D3 this high as long as my serum calcium remains within its normal reference range. As you can see it has.

The other thing to note is I've been taking the Bio-Tech D3-50 at one a week since January of 2019.  I've also taken 3 mg Boron at least once a week along with the rest of this regimen daily.  As you can see my 25(OH)D3 response has been steady at 150 ng/mL.

I've updated the supplements to include the Methyl Folate + (B complex) in place of the vitamin B 50/100 complex.  Rationale: The methylated forms of vitamin B have a higher bioequivalence.  I've found this combination gets me through the heavy pollen season without needing to increase my vitamin D3 intake.

Finally make sure you add 3 grams/day vitamin C (1g three times a day) and 30 to 50 mg/day zinc as this is the best immune-boosting strategy we can take to help fight off SARS-C0V-2 virus and the COVID-19 infection.  Adding Resveratrol or better yet, the Resveratrol analog, Pterostilbene.  It helps zinc enter cells to stop the SARS-C0V-2 virus from replicating.

See my Coronavirus PSA thread for more details.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 9th, 2020 at 9:41pm
Hi Batch, thanks for clearing that up for me. So, by just taking the boron that's in the Kirkland Mature Multi/day, I should stay around the 80ng/mL mark?

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 10th, 2020 at 1:21am
Hoppy,

It sure looks that way from the labs sent by CHers taking this regimen since they switched to the Bio-Tech D3-50 and continued taking the Mature Multi.  25(OH)D3 data from the online survey for 2019 looks the same.

The real welcome changes in efficacy are the 30-day response rates for significant reduction and pain free.  The year over year mean for significant reduction has 80% of participants experiencing a drop from 21 CH/week down to 4 CH/week in the first 30 days after start of regimen.  For 2019 the rate was over 90% of CHers responding.  30-day pain free mean response through 2018 jumped from 52% up to 67% reporting CH pain free in 2019.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Hoppy on Apr 10th, 2020 at 10:40pm
Thanks Batch, have a Happy Easter and stay safe.

Cheers Hoppy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 11th, 2020 at 10:38pm

Batch wrote on Apr 9th, 2020 at 6:47am:

I've updated the supplements to include the Methyl Folate + (B complex) in place of the vitamin B 50/100 complex.  Rationale: The methylated forms of vitamin B have a higher bioequivalence.  I've found this combination gets me through the heavy pollen season without needing to increase my vitamin D3 intake.


Hey Batch,

What month do you usually start taking the B-100 Complex and Methyl Folate? 

Any particular brand (for the B-Complex) and dosage (for the Methyl Folate) you recommend?

Also, if I start a 3-month course of B-100 Complex plus Methyl Folate, should I stop taking the B-12 Methylcobalamin 5000 mcg and B-1 Benfotiamine 300 mg that I'm currently taking?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Apr 14th, 2020 at 4:26pm
Batch (all)

Hey everyone I am just checking back in formally. It's that time in my world for my headaches to roll back around 3 years-ish. It's been 3 years this month BUT the good news is nothing yet. I know, I know we don't know when it's going to hit but I have hope this time.

I have my D3 level right around 100ng/ml I'd be more comfortable with it a little higher.

I get so caught up in/with life when my pain is gone I do not check in here as often as I should. Growing kids, taking care of loved ones etc. It's a blessing when we get the chance to do it.

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Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 15th, 2020 at 12:25am
Hey Slacker,

I take the Methyl Folate + daily as it is also a vitamin B complex.  The big difference is the B vitamins in the Methyl Folate complex are all methylated which gives them a higher bioequivalence. I stopped taking the B100 complex when I switched to the Methyl Folate +.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 15th, 2020 at 1:41am
Hey TG,

Thanks for the update and 25(OH)D lab data.  I'd say you're in the Catbird seat with your 25(OH)D3 at 100 ng/mL.  At that level, the probability of the CH beast being able to jump ugly is nil.

Be sure to take at least 3 grams/day vitamin C (1g 3X day) and 50 mg/day zinc on top of your usual anti-inflammatory regimen.  Rationale: this is an immune-boosting strategy that will help your immune system fight off the SARS-CoV-2 virus and help prevent COVID-19 infection.

In addition to being a potent antioxident, Vitamin C is also a potent antiviral that kills virus on contact if you keep the serum concentration high enough with frequent dosing throughout the day.  Vitamin D3 beefs up immune system cells in the innate part of the immune system that serves as the first line of defense against new invading pathogens, bacteria, fungus and virus for which there are no antibodies.

Zinc enables the thymus to produce memory T-cells which from part of the second line of defense in the adaptive part of the immune system.  These cells attack invading virus then generate antibodies that physically stick to other invading virus of the same kind, marking them for destruction by killer T-cells.  The memory T-cells store the directions needed to generate these antibodies in their DNA so that when they replicate, the code for generating these antibodies is passed on to their offspring providing us with life-long immunity against that specific virus.

Zinc actually blocks virus from entering cells lining the alveoli at the ACE-2 receptors and also enters these cells to stop viral replication.  These two functions alone make zinc a very important part of this immune-boosting combination to prevent COVID-19 infection.

So much for today's lesson in immunology.

Take care and please keep me posted

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 15th, 2020 at 1:52am

Batch wrote on Apr 15th, 2020 at 12:25am:
Hey Slacker,

I take the Methyl Folate + daily as it is also a vitamin B complex.  The big difference is the B vitamins in the Methyl Folate complex are all methylated which gives them a higher bioequivalence. I stopped taking the B100 complex when I switched to the Methyl Folate +.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Hey Batch,

If I start taking the Methyl Folate+, should I stop taking the B-12 Methylcobalamin 5000 mcg and B-1 Benfotiamine 300 mg that I'm currently taking?

Also, do you take the Methyl Folate+ year round and not just a 90-day course?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on Apr 19th, 2020 at 1:01am
Hey Slacker,

Good question.  The Methyl Folate + contains both B-12 Methylcobalamin and vitamin B1 so there's no real need to take them separately.  I started taking the Methyl Folate + in January and plan to take it year round.

One of the biggest benefits I've found from taking the Methyl Folate + is I haven't needed to boost my vitamin D3 dose to 30,000 IU/day up to 40,000 IU/day to get through the heavy spring pollen season.  One Bio-Tech D3-50 50,000 IU water soluble vitamin D3 capsule a week is working just great now that I'm taking the Methyl Folate + and the Big Leaf Maple tree pollen has been fearsome for the last week.

The hood of my once black pickup truck is no longer black. It's now loaded with thick yellow Big Leaf Maple pollen.

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The culprit is this charming yellow bloom set.

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The problem is there are thousands of these blooms on the 100 year old, 150 foot tall Big Leaf Maple trees and there are at least 10 of them surrounding the house like these two outside our bedroom window. The slightest breeze will cause them cut loose with thick yellow clouds of pollen.

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Fortunately it rained for a few minutes this afternoon and that cleared the air... for a while...  Here's an example of the Big Leaf Maple tree pollen the rain washed off the closed sun umbrella on our deck.

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In any event, I love the Methyl Folate +. It Swirkin!

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by slacker032 on Apr 19th, 2020 at 10:59am
Got it.  Thanks Batch.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Fitzer on Jul 28th, 2020 at 3:57pm
I have a question Batch.

If someone is not receiving any benefits from the regimen, at what vitamin D level should they give up on the regimen?

100 ng/ml? 120 ng/ml? 150 ng/ml?

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Tm
Post by Batch on Jul 29th, 2020 at 1:18pm
Hey Fitzer,

Great question.  The latest version of the anti-inflammatory regimen CH and MH preventative treatment protocol calls for staying on the accelerated vitamin D3 loading schedule until you experience a significant reduction in CH frequency or up to 30 days whichever occurs first.  At the 30 day mark, you need to drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day with the liquid softgel vitamin D3 formulations or 50,000 IU/week with the Bio-Tech D3-50 50,000 IU water soluble form of vitamin D3.  At that point you also need to see your PCP/GP for lab test of your serum 25(OH)D3, calcium and PTH.  These labs are important primarily to ensure serum calcium remains within its normal reference range so there's no hypercalcemia.

There have been a few CHers who needed to elevate their serum 25(OH)D3 above 200 ng/mL (two over 300 ng/mL) before they experienced a significant reduction in CH frequency.  All of them did this under medical supervision by their PCP/GP with frequent labs for 25(OH)D3 and calcium.

If you've not switched to the Bio-Tech D3-50, now would be a good time to switch.  We've found the Bio-Tech D3-50 to be faster acting with a higher bioequivalence in elevating serum 25(OH)D than the same dose of the oil-based liquid softgel vitamin D3 formulations.

We've also found the Methyl Folate+ vitamin B complex also helps vitamin D3 to be more effective as the methylated forms of vitamin D3 have a higher bioequivalence.

Doubling the Omega-3 fish oil dose has helped several CH achieve a favorable response to this regimen as has taking 1000 mg/day Turmeric (Curcumin), another natural anti-inflammatory agent.

For reference, as illustrated by the 3-year record of my labs for serum 25(OH)D3, calcium and PTH, I've needed to maintain my serum 25(OH)D3 around 150 ng/mL and at times as high as 180 ng/mL to remain CH pain free during heavy pollen and mold spore seasons which is most of the time where I live.

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There are several reasons why you haven't responded to this regimen.  Please shoot me a PM with your email address so we can take this topic off-line to discuss and I can provide additional information that may be helpful.

In regards to stopping this regimen, the health benefits are so great, I would continue taking it even if there's no response to your CH. The COVID-19 pandemic is a classic example as illustrated in the following graphics and good reason to stay on this regimen.

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch


Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 10th, 2021 at 9:03pm
So it’s been three years since the last cycle but on April 27 the beast returned.  My vit D 25 OH tested at 122.00 ng/mL in mid Nov so I (dumbly) reduced daily dose from 10,000 IU to 5,000 IU. All was fine but we had horrible record setting hay fever season here (sw FL) in March and then I received the J&J vaccine on Good Friday.  Seems this might have been too much for my immune system.  I had been cluster free for so long I wasn’t thinking about upping the vit D3.  So nightly headaches mostly at 11pm, mostly easily treated with O2, and have been load dosing with 50k IU D3.  Just tested my levels Friday and am back to 121.00 ng/mL.  Started a keto diet yesterday but still had to fend off a headache with O2 just now.  No alcohol since the headaches started.  Taking 2 Benadryl every night since this past Friday.  Hoping to keep this cycle short using all the knowledge gained from browsing these threads.  Please let me know if I’m missing anything that can help.  Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by SouthernCluster on May 10th, 2021 at 9:23pm
P.S.  At 50 cents a minute ($22 for an E tank), O2 is likely the best money I’ve ever spent, but how can the insurance companies get away with not covering this cost when Sumatriptan and Verapamil are fully covered?!  Haven’t been able to find out what is covered for the gammacore for $600/month!  #sickCare //end rant

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by Batch on May 12th, 2021 at 1:24pm
Hey SouthernCluster,

I know what you're going through.  The Alder and Big Leaf Maple tree pollen this Spring has been onerous so I've needed to up my vitamin D3 maintenance dose from 50,000 IU/week to 150,000 IU/week to remain CH pain free.  My 25(OH)D3 serum concentration has been around 150 ng/mL until this Spring, so I estimate the increased vitamin D3 maintenance dose will have my serum 25(OH)D3 upwards of 180 ng/mL by now.  I'm scheduled for my annual labs for 25(OH)D3, calcium and PTH next week and will post the results.

I continue to stick with the basic regimen illustrated in the photo below.

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I also continue to take at least 8 grams/day vitamin C, 50 mg/day zinc picolinate and 800 mg/day Quercetin on top of the basic regimen as an immune boosting strategy to prevent serious viral infections.  So far it's working just fine.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on May 27th, 2021 at 10:41am
I thought I would put my next 2 cents in. I am back after "skipping" a year. I have been on a 3 year rotation of headaches since I turned 17 (now 50) this time I skipped a year and it was 4 glorious years without a headache.

I started my new cycle about a week ago. I just got my D3 test back today and it's at 129. I am still getting hit once or twice a day bad enough to hit the oxygen and drink a monster. I have been loading 50k D3 for the past 4 days and figure I will finish out the week. I am doing the rest of the regime as I have been for years now. I THINK I am still getting these "smaller" headaches due to the pollen that has been crazy this year.

Batch, thanks again for all that you do and have done for all of us over all of these years. You are truly a blessing.

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by tgdurst on Jun 3rd, 2021 at 12:44pm
I spoke too soon about having these under control. I just got hit by a 8-9 and it's still hanging around. I took 50k this morning and 2 doses of Benadryl. Not happy

Title: Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Post by TheAndyT on Jul 30th, 2022 at 4:39am
Well hello!!!

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