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Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With (Read 13215 times)
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #100 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:51am  
Carolyn- thanks for the link, it answered my question.
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #101 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:57am  
Charlie wrote on Sep 1st, 2008 at 2:54pm:
She lost me with her saying that she supports teaching creationism in public schools...


Difficult to swallow.  Court cases within Kansas in 2000 and in Delaware 2004 both lost pushing this.  Despite, a local antievolutionary majority took back the Kansas board in the 2004 elections and once again rewrote the science standards to their liking.  In a democracy, popular education can reflect popular opinion being education a local responsibility, guided along with influence on state and national levels.  
 
 Antievolution movements have been able to introduce their own lesson plans, reword curriculum standards, and even redefine science.  Influence on a national scale would not further accomplishments attained here in America.  In the decade ending 2004, Americans won 71% of the Nobel Prizes in physics, 61% in medicine and physiology, 58% in chemistry.*  None reflective of any revolutionary intelligent design ideas.  
 In this century of biology, ID's (intelligent design), which includes unevolvable "irreducible complexity", "complex specified information" (CSI), and that natural causes are incapable of generating CSI to explain blood clotting, flagellum, macroevolution, and mechanisms of DNA as well at its information content, fall gradually by the wayside as once the sun shining was thought to be a violation of the laws of nature, until nuclear fusion was discovered.

In the 70's and '80's, "scientific" creationism required attesting to the literal, historical truth of Scripture, defending the biblical accounts of creation.  The Grand Canyon a product of a single world-wide flood roughly 6000 years ago, not geological ages.  A rejection of science to accomodate biblical beliefs.  The public relations of creationism circumvents quickly to evolve to an ID now that's more flexible, lighter, for survival, setting the heavy book aside for Eden's second draft and a smaller target, with the denying of beyond the popular ability they teach.





*many of course foreign born, coming and staying here to pursue scientific careers and research.

Most info referenced from the debates within "Only A Theory", "Evolution", and "Where Darwin Meets the Bible".
 
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #102 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 5:40pm  
I have a fundamentalist preacher neighbor who is a great guy and he and I get along fine. On the other hand, he of course, would like to require creationism.......now called ID because they get nowhere calling it creationism, taught as a science. They seem to think that calling it "Intelligent Design" works better and perhaps it does. He and the rest of them try to convince educators that they just want it presented along side Darwin so students can decide for themselves. A lot of people fall for this for some reason. What they are doing is trying to weaken evolution by elevating ID. Of course their goal is to eliminate evolution entirely by including biblical teaching in public schools. Fortunately this isn't doing well.....so far.... as is denying Darwin in most of the western world. It's a slippery slope and so far they have had a hard time. Good. It's incredibly embarrassing for the country that we have groups here that want us to believe that "The Flintstones" is history.

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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #103 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 7:44pm  
Seems to me only those who feel threatened would want to eliminate any given point of view from being taught.

By definition, a strong idea will stand up to any of its competitors.
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #104 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 8:22pm  
Quote:
Seems to me only those who feel threatened would want to eliminate any given point of view from being taught.

By definition, a strong idea will stand up to any of its competitors.


I don't have a problem with Intelligent design being taught in school, IF the following criteria need to be met, (1) It is taught in a stand alone class or as part of a religion class,  (2) it is not taught as part of the science curriculum and (3) it is not a requirement (students may opt out).
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #105 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 8:34pm  
Charlie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2008 at 5:40pm:
I have a fundamentalist preacher neighbor who is a great guy and he and I get along fine. On the other hand, he of course, would like to require creationism.......now called ID because they get nowhere calling it creationism, taught as a science. They seem to think that calling it "Intelligent Design" works better and perhaps it does. He and the rest of them try to convince educators that they just want it presented along side Darwin so students can decide for themselves. A lot of people fall for this for some reason. What they are doing is trying to weaken evolution by elevating ID. Of course their goal is to eliminate evolution entirely by including biblical teaching in public schools. Fortunately this isn't doing well.....so far.... as is denying Darwin in most of the western world. It's a slippery slope and so far they have had a hard time. Good. It's incredibly embarrassing for the country that we have groups here that want us to believe that "The Flintstones" is history.

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Charlie


I agree with you Charlie.  Teaching of religion in pulic schools should not be done.  Leave that to the houses of worship.  I have nothing against the teaching about religions in school as a social studies class but to teach religion or to only teach about one or two specific religions is wrong.

The wordsmithing of creationism into intelligen design is a joke and a poor attempt to hide what it really is.  Kind of like taking that impending 10% tax hike and lowering it to 7% and selling it as a tax cut Wink

-P.
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #106 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:12pm  
Nope. This thing was settled in the Scopes trial in many ways too. Yes....I know the differences.....I also have no trouble with prayer in schools and God Bless America and all that. Kids don't have to join in if they want to go that far. It probably does more good than harm.

This thing is about teaching something that is not a scientifc theory....scientific theories actually invite scrutiny and beg to be challenged....Scientifically. Intelligent design is faith and it is being used to dumb down the curricula in favor of some evangelical Christians mostly since the 1970s or so. For nearly 80 years the country has gotten along fine with our current arrangement. It's politics now and dangerous to our kids. Skeptics are not welcome among this group. They are often viewed as evil by them. Scientific skepticism is definitely welcomed by science.

Evolutionary theory is that. A scientific theory subject to scientific debate, not wishful thinking by people wishing to kill science. Have fun in church sponsored venues, not public school.

This is very dangerous stuff. In my lifetime, I never thought that I'd witness Republican Presidential primary candidates raising their hands in favor of saying that "The jury is still out on evolution." It's stunning.

Earlier this year I saw the speech by John F. Kennedy answering religious questions that were a big part of his campaign. What difference......

Charlie
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #107 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:17pm  
Just to add a different theory into the mix - why SHOULD'NT religion be taught in schools? At one end of the scale it should be taught so everyone, regardless of home environment has the CHOICE (there's that word again) and the INFORMATION to make up their own minds on the subject with the benefit of actually knowing the fact's of what each religion believes.

If for no other reason than to root out prejudice it should be taught, we only fear what we don't understand. understanding other cultures is the only way we can ever have either peace - or understand them enough to stop them threatening OUR peace.

Choosing to teach religion's as a subject or not is as stupid as choosing whether or not to teach sex education. There's another subject that many believe 'should be taught in the home" - and how many kids would know nothing or have information that's bigoted and downright wrong if that were the case?

Being educated is about being informed.

Witholding information is witholding education. Being threatened by religious education is extremely narrow minded. As a case in point, try and pack a Bible and go on holiday to Saudi Arabia. Is that how you want to be perceived?
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #108 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:18pm  
deltadarlin wrote on Sep 2nd, 2008 at 8:22pm:
Quote:
Seems to me only those who feel threatened would want to eliminate any given point of view from being taught.

By definition, a strong idea will stand up to any of its competitors.


I don't have a problem with Intelligent design being taught in school, IF the following criteria need to be met, (1) It is taught in a stand alone class or as part of a religion class,  (2) it is not taught as part of the science curriculum and (3) it is not a requirement (students may opt out).

Quite frankly, I'm with Paul on this one. It should be taught at church as it falls under the umbrella of religious philosophy.

I just find it intriguing when people think it should be banned from schools because they obviously are threatened by it. Maybe that's just me.
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #109 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:21pm  
Charlie wrote on Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:12pm:
In my lifetime, I never thought that I'd witness Republican Presidential primary candidates raising their hands in favor of saying that "The jury is still out on evolution." It's stunning.

Charlie


It's right up there with Jimmy Carters appalling comment about McCains prisoner of war years being "An unfortunate incident early on in his military career" - God bless our soldiers but only if they don't have the temerity to think they can serve the country outside the army?
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #110 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:23pm  
As long as the "kids" are being brought up.....LOL  Grin

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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #111 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:27pm  
I'm with all the candidates: Kids should be off limits in campaigns.

Charlie
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #112 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:37pm  
Helen: The United States is one of the most religious western countries in the world. One of the major reasons that it is, is that it's safe to do your own thing in your own church here. Keeping it out of and away from public schools works fine. The rest of the western world laughs at us over our paying a lot of attention to noisy pulpit pounder attempts to dumb us down and some of the success that they have in politics. It's embarrassing  

Religious teaching by zealots does not have a pretty history.

Charlie
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #113 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 9:46pm  
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #114 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 11:11pm  
Quote:
deltadarlin wrote on Sep 2nd, 2008 at 8:22pm:
Quote:
Seems to me only those who feel threatened would want to eliminate any given point of view from being taught.

By definition, a strong idea will stand up to any of its competitors.


I don't have a problem with Intelligent design being taught in school, IF the following criteria need to be met, (1) It is taught in a stand alone class or as part of a religion class,  (2) it is not taught as part of the science curriculum and (3) it is not a requirement (students may opt out).

Quite frankly, I'm with Paul on this one. It should be taught at church as it falls under the umbrella of religious philosophy.

I just find it intriguing when people think it should be banned from schools because they obviously are threatened by it. Maybe that's just me.


I think it's funny how the left tries to portray any talk of creationism in schools as being some kind of fundamentalist attempt to ban the teaching of Darwinism or evolution.  What a crock.  At best, I think the 'extremists' are saying that the possibility of intelligent design playing a role in this has to be acknowledged instead of forbidden, as the liberals would have it.  I'm in the camp that believes this is something to be taught in church, but I also don't want my kids forced to have a public education where they are told they are stupid if they have faith in God and a creator.

-Shawn
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #115 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 12:34am  
Well said Shawn.
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #116 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 12:35am  
ID advocates focus on influencing school boards and textbook publishers

Judge Overton's ruling on a bill passed mandating equal time, McLean vs Arkansas, 1982:

The law "left no doubt that the major effect of the Act is the advancement of particular religious beliefs."  The law that required balanced treatment "lacks legitimate educational value because 'creation science' as defined in that section is simply not science."

1985, Federal judge Adrian Duplantier ruled it unconstitutional in a Louisiana summary judgment.

1987, Edwards vs Aguillard.  U. S. Supreme Court ruled 7-2 to uphold lower courts, states cannot require public schools to balance evolution lessons by teaching creationism.

2000, lost in Kansas.

2004-05, lost in Georgia

2005, lost in Pennsylvania

In a 139-page written ruling, the judge said: "Our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom."

"We find that the secular purposes claimed by the board amount to a pretext for the board’s real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom."

The disclaimer, he said, "singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource and instructs students to forgo scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere."

In his ruling, Jones said that while intelligent design, or ID, arguments "may be true, a proposition on which the court takes no position, ID is not science." Among other things, he said intelligent design "violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation"; it relies on "flawed and illogical" arguments; and its attacks on evolution "have been refuted by the scientific community."

going on...

"The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources," he wrote.

"It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #117 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 1:57am  
Kevin,

I am thankful that I have the choice to send my kids to a school that doesn't forbid the mention of God for fear of insulting 'scientists' (which is a red herring any way, no scientist is insulted by the mere mention of God, in fact many happen to believe in a higher power).  My kids will not be attending public schools, for many reasons.  I hope they can get a balanced education in the sciences without being told that all religious people are crazy fools for believing that God exists because science can't prove it.

-Shawn
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #118 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 5:51am  
Since ID has been deemed a religious belief and not a science, the problem has been the creation of a national religion, establishing a particular belief over others negating full and equal rights.  Behind the spirit of the first amendment, equal treatment of religious beliefs should be kept and the national government not favor one over another.


Quote:
According to The Congressional Register Madison, on June 8, moved that "the civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed."

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I believe this has been perhaps where it crosses the line.  It may be that you are making reference to the underlined portion of the paragraph while ID can be seen as violating the emboldened portion.

The final version reverses the two thoughts:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


The sequence of thought seemed to go like this:

James Madison, 1789-JUN-7 "The Civil Rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, nor on any pretext infringed. No state shall violate the equal rights of conscience or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases."

House Select Committee, JUL-28 "No religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed,"

Samuel Livermore, AUG-15 "Congress shall make no laws touching religion, or infringing the rights of conscience."

House version, AUG-20 "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or to prevent the free exercise thereof, or to infringe the rights of conscience." (Moved by Fisher Ames)

Initial Senate version, SEP-3 "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Final Senate version, SEP-9 "Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion."

Conference Committee "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."






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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #119 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 9:16am  
Well, if you want your kids to be taught Intelligent Design, just bring them to Louisiana.  Our dear Governor, Bobby Jindal, signed a bill into law that will allow ID to be taught in our public school system.

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And it seems like Ms. Palin might be a bit of a zealot too.

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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #120 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 10:27am  
A careful wording applies I see:

Quote:
It also says that it "shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion."





Here is the disclaimer they got the board in Dover, PA to require teachers to read:

Quote:
On November 19, 2004, the Dover Area School District issued a press release stating that, commencing in January 2005, teachers would be required to read the following statement to students in the ninth-grade biology class at Dover High School:

The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin's theory of evolution and eventually to take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.

Because Darwin's Theory is a theory, it is still being tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.

Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin's view. The reference book, Of Pandas and People is available for students to see if they would like to explore this view in an effort to gain an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves.

As is true with any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind. The school leaves the discussion of the origins of life to individual students and their families. As a standards-driven district, class instruction focuses upon preparing students to achieve proficiency on standards-based assessments.


Hidden among the objective looking words is a book they would like on similar equal footing as Darwin's.  If only it could stand the test of time before the ink dries though.


Be prepared if contested and lost like in Dover, the good tax payers of Dover ended up with a merciful million dollar bill that could have been two million.

Quote:
On February 21, 2006, the newly elected Dover Area School Board voted, unanimously with one abstention, to pay $1,000,011 in legal fees and damages due to the parents and their lawyers as a result of the verdict in the case, a large sum of money for a small district. The previous school board had been offered the opportunity to rescind its policy, and avoid paying legal fees, immediately after the lawsuit was filed in 2004, but it declined. The parents' attorneys Pepper Hamilton stated that court records would show that they were entitled to more than $2 million, but were going to accept less than half that amount in recognition of the small size of the school district, and because the school board that voted for the policy had been voted out of office, leaving the new school board "having the bill placed in their laps." The previous school board had been defended without charge by the Thomas More Law Center.  Richard Katskee, assistant legal director for Americans United, said of the trial's cost, "Any board thinking of trying to do what the Dover board did is going to have to look for a bill in excess of $2 million," and "I think $2 million is a lot to explain to taxpayers for a lawsuit that should never be fought."



ID is still evolving to survive I see.
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #121 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 3:50pm  
Scientific theories such as Darwin's theory of evolution is not something you find presented by lunatics trying to get attention by bizarre propositions that George Bush and others created 9-11 to get our attention. You will often find IDers among among this group. Scientific theories are different from Bigfoot. They are always open to scientific study and welcome it. ID has nothing to do with scientific theory and the very purpose of ID is to mislead vulnerable people of Kansas and elsewhere into calling evolution "just a theory." Scientific theories beg to be challenged by free inquiry. IDers brand any attempt to question its tenants as heretic or worse. To them, the worst thing you can do is to try to learn about it. You must accept it as the only truth and as such, there is no room for nuance as it is faith, not science.

Trying to get it into public schools as just more information to be considered, is akin to presenting tarot cards and Uri Geller as information we need to function in the real world. None of these things have any basis in scientific theory. ID doesn't have much to with what most of us call religion anyway. It's an attempt to completely discredit Charles Darwin for political reasons by a few noisy people that are livid that the country treats its citizens as free thinkers.

So far as I know, God and religion are mentioned in schools. It was when I was there as part of history and further explained in church or Catholic schools. By the way, I seem to remember Catholic schools as fairly liberal in their curricula. Do they insist on ID as what it is?  I seem to remember Catholic schooling as just about as good as you can get. 

I'm very skeptical about the idea that God isn't mentioned in most classrooms. This sounds like one of the many iffy claims used by IDers to get attention by making it sound schools are sources of only liberal indoctrination; where it isn't.

There is nothing wrong with being exposed to religious ideas as a faith. It's fine in church teachings or if you want to visit the several theme parks that present our planet as 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs were around as big game.

Paying attention to free thought and going to church on our own is why we have been so successful. Don't make faith mandatory. It's un-American.

Charlie
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #122 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 8:07pm  
Sorry Charlie, but its video.  Grin

Its easy, its either a no expirenced tax you to hell pol.

Or, an American hero that wants nothing but to cut your taxes and porkbarrel spending. (Earmarks)

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Like always, you be the judge!  Wink
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #123 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 10:29pm  
The majority of people who believe in a higher power also believe in evolution.  Intelligent people can deal with the possibility of both being fact.

Seeing the lefties get all frothy at the mouth whenever God is mentioned cracks me up.  It truly sheds light on their agenda.  I posted one simple comment on why I didn't want my kid to be called stupid for believing in God, and out comes lengthy posts about fanatics trying to force children to learn religion in school.  I didn't say anything about wanting that, but boy did those well-researched canned responses come in handy.

And to make an instant association between IDers and 9-11 conspiracy theorists... all I can say is WOW!  Charlie, sometimes you stun me.  That was one of your best.
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Re: Liberal Free Speech Only Applies If You Agree With
Reply #124 - Sep 3rd, 2008 at 10:44pm  
Just to clarify, I didn't mean teach religion as teaching purely about Christianity. I meant teaching it as a subject about all religions, their belif, practices, festivals etc. I would like to see it taught as a cultural thing so that people - all of us - understand other's beliefs.
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