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Well, I watched the first debate... (Read 6303 times)
George
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Well, I watched the first debate...
Sep 26th, 2008 at 10:55pm
 
...and whether or not I agree with one or the other candidate on any specific issue, I have to say that (purely from the standpoint of a debate) I saw no clear "winner" tonight.  No "knockout punches" delivered.

YMMV.

In any case, it was a pleasure watching two such articulate and thoughtful men. 

Best,

George
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #1 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:12pm
 
DANG!!

Both were there?  I thought McCain said he was too busy to be there.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #2 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:17pm
 
I watched the Brewers beat the Cubs.

I think the Cubs were too busy to be there.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #3 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:19pm
 
George wrote on Sep 26th, 2008 at 10:55pm:
...and whether or not I agree with one or the other candidate on any specific issue, I have to say that (purely from the standpoint of a debate) I saw no clear "winner" tonight.  No "knockout punches" delivered.

YMMV.

In any case, it was a pleasure watching two such articulate and thoughtful men.  

Best,

George  


i agree. i strongly believe the debate needed a third wheel. something fresh.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #4 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:19pm
 
I agree, but those who have already decided are going to be even more fired up, I'll bet.

Hearing Obama constantly talk about how he's going to tax the top 5% of earners *really* pisses me off.  Why?  I'm in the top five percent.  That doesn't mean I live like it though, because my cost of living is also in the top 1%, making my lifestyle no better than all those poor souls in the lower 95%.  That bullshit tax plan doesn't do anything but shift more tax burden to my shoulders, when I don't have any more disposable income than those 'poor' folks.  It's not my fault the jobs I am good at are all in a highly taxed and expensive region of the country.  No, according to Obama I can afford to give up more of my hard earned pay (as hard as any other poor person's job, just different).  That so pisses me off that I'm about to have a heart attack.  The fact is, this kind of bullshit class warfare always works for the liberals.  Arghhhhhhhhh.   Angry

Obama is a socialist, through and through.  I will vote for freedom, not Marxism.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #5 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:30pm
 
Quote:
I agree, but those who have already decided are going to be even more fired up, I'll bet.

Hearing Obama constantly talk about how he's going to tax the top 5% of earners *really* pisses me off.  Why?  I'm in the top five percent.  That doesn't mean I live like it though, because my cost of living is also in the top 1%, making my lifestyle no better than all those poor souls in the lower 95%.  That bullshit tax plan doesn't do anything but shift more tax burden to my shoulders, when I don't have any more disposable income than those 'poor' folks.  It's not my fault the jobs I am good at are all in a highly taxed and expensive region of the country.  No, according to Obama I can afford to give up more of my hard earned pay (as hard as any other poor person's job, just different).  That so pisses me off that I'm about to have a heart attack.  The fact is, this kind of bullshit class warfare always works for the liberals.  Arghhhhhhhhh.   Angry

Obama is a socialist, through and through.  I will vote for freedom, not Marxism.


jesse ventura proposes a flat tax. your not taxed on what you earn rather your taxed on what you spend.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #6 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:33pm
 
Quote:
Hearing Obama constantly talk about how he's going to tax the top 5% of earners *really* pisses me off.  Why?  I'm in the top five percent.  That doesn't mean I live like it though, because my cost of living is also in the top 1%, making my lifestyle no better than all those poor souls in the lower 95%.  That bullshit tax plan doesn't do anything but shift more tax burden to my shoulders, when I don't have any more disposable income than those 'poor' folks.  It's not my fault the jobs I am good at are all in a highly taxed and expensive region of the country.  No, according to Obama I can afford to give up more of my hard earned pay (as hard as any other poor person's job, just different).  That so pisses me off that I'm about to have a heart attack.  The fact is, this kind of bullshit class warfare always works for the liberals.  Arghhhhhhhhh.   Angry

Obama is a socialist, through and through.  I will vote for freedom, not Marxism.

That's why I have a clear conscience having watched baseball.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #7 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 12:49am
 
I am a gluten for punishment, I watched it a second time.

I think McCain actually did better.  Obama seemed to be on the defensive a lot, and McCain sure came across stronger on foreign knowledge.  In general, I felt like every time I heard Obama, I was listening to the same old duck and spin politician dance as always.  McCain sounded like he had real credibility and a record to prove it.

I absolutely LOVE how Obama says "and I've paid for every one of them" about his new spending plans.  Oh yes, Obama the One is going to pay for us to have Universal Health Care, and endless supplies of bennies for the poorest 95% of Americans.  How can you NOT love this guy?

But I am biased.  I'm right, but I admit I'm biased.  Is this really what the Democrats want in office?  God help us.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #8 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 12:58am
 
isn't that pretty much what they always offer? Roll Eyes
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #9 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 1:02am
 
These guys dodged the economic questions when asked how the economy would affect their proposals........McCain too. They are stuck over this because after all the big stuff like defense, SS, Medicare and mainline expenses, they have very little left to deal with. Maybe a couple percentage points, no more. They don't want to disappoint.

It was a debate when there will be no big sound bite. It was pretty civil which must make cable news channels cringe. Minds were not changed here.

Charlie
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #10 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 1:12am
 
Charlie wrote on Sep 27th, 2008 at 1:02am:

It was a debate when there will be no big sound bite. It was pretty civil which must make cable news channels cringe. Minds were not changed here.

Charlie


lol. in the last debate the hot issue was gay marriage. this time they don't have to create issues to quarrel over.  both opponents were scratching their heads at best. im not impressed with either candidate.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #11 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 1:16am
 
Charlie wrote on Sep 27th, 2008 at 1:02am:
They are stuck over this because after all the big stuff like defense, SS, Medicare and mainline expenses, they have very little left to deal with. Maybe a couple percentage points, no more.
Charlie


Thats not really true, Charlie.  SS and Medicare have their own revenue and they do not (yet) take from the general fund.  They have a LOT to play with......trillions of dollars a year. 

With all this bail out crap last week, I think the national debt is now up to 10Trillion dollars.  Thats 400Billion a year in interest at just 4%.
Angry

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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #12 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 1:34am
 
With all this bail out crap last week, I think the national debt is now up to 10Trillion dollars.  Thats 400Billion a year in interest at just 4%.

Don't EVER print sh%$ like that again on this board. Angry I sleep much better at night when it's just imaginary trillions of dollars owed........400 Billion a year in interest.......that'll keep my eyes open into the wee hours of the morning... Undecided

Guiseppi....who hates this new math!
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"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.
 
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #13 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 8:23am
 
Taxes are supposed to be representitive of what they are for, at least that was the idea in the begining.

Taxation Without Representation went way beyond being able to vote for who was going to tax you.

This whole idea of an income tax is basically illegal. So is the idea of dumping all our tax money into a giant pot and then spending it where ever the governemnet wants.

Taxes are supposed to be collected from the services they suppport adn pay for the services they support. Then the people who use the most services, usually the "rich" ones, pay the most taxes. But since they use the most services it works out.

I know that today doing this 100% of the time does not work, but there could be an effort to attempt try to do it.

What Oboma is saying he will do is not communist, or socialist, it is republicism actually.

In social governments they tax a flat tax, period. Everyone pays something like 60% of their income in tax and no taxes are charged elsewhere. Since everyone pays the same tax rate, big business can't get kick backs and tax incentives. "Flat tax" is more social than what is supposed to be happening here and for the reason I just mentioned it will never fly, unless of course that is a fair idea for people only, not businesses, which sounds right from a republican plan.

BTW most social countries residnts pay about 60% tax, which is more or less what we pay in America. A for it they get a free education and free health care.

And if no one has noticed, China has no fear their economy is going to collapse. Lots of people need those sweatshop Nike's.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #14 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 8:59am
 
Lips Sealed Lips Sealed Lips Sealed
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #15 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:00am
 
I watched the whole thing and nothing moved me one way or the other, still undesided with 38 day to go.  I may just write my name on the ballot.    Phil
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #16 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:04am
 
The Brewers now have a one-game lead in the NL wild card race. Their magic number is two. Any combination of Brewers wins and Mets losses totalling two and they're in the playoffs for the first time in 26 years.

That's my new math and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #17 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:17am
 
I guess my point was this: What is the difference between the US government and the socialist governments if the US needs to take 700 Billion dollars from its taxpayers and rdestribute it to big businesses that pay their CEO 13 millions of dollars for work a fw months to save it's economy?

Why is it that everyone's money being given to failed business is thought of as capitolist, but everyone's money given to failed people is socialist?

Isn't the bailout "socialist"?

I am careful with labels, as they usually are meant to be put in place to make people feel better, and there are lots of ways to "skin a cat".
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #18 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:20am
 
superhawk2300 wrote on Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:17am:
I guess my point was this: What is the difference between the US government and the socialist governments if the US needs to take 700 Billion dollars from its taxpayers and rdestribute it to big businesses that pay their CEO 13 millions of dollars for work a fw months to save it's economy?

Why is it that everyone's money being given to failed business is thought of as capitolist, but everyone's money given to failed people is socialist?

Isn't the bailout "socialist"?


There is no difference. We have become the United States of France.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #19 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:31am
 
Except that the French get free eduactions, free health care, and 3 months of vacation every year.

We spend the same amount in taxes as they do and look what we get for our money - primetime coverage of a "muslim" and a man that looks like a albino turkey, fighting for a job no one in their right mind would want, that is occupied by a man who looks like, and has the intelligence of a money.
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #20 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:38am
 
Economics 101 - Nothing is free, my friend.

Except the 5,000 seats Eric Gagne purchased and gave to the fans of Milwaukee the other night. Wink

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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #21 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 9:44am
 
Correct!

Both countries citizens pay the same amount annually for taxes on average.

They just choose to pay for eduacation, heathcare and other things common citizens find likeable, instead of paying for other stuff, like wars to find weapons of mass distruction that do not exist and being the worlds policeman.

Well, and there is this.......

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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #22 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 12:02pm
 
want socialized govt?  Read this first

THE SAD ROAD TO SOCIALISM
What happens When Private Property is No Longer a Right
by John Loeffler
Contributor, Steel on Steel Radio Program
Co-host, Financial Sense Newshour
July 18, 2008

“But if the government undertakes to control and to raise wages, and cannot do it; if the government undertakes to care for all who may be in want, and cannot do it; if the government undertakes to support all unemployed workers, and cannot do it; if the government undertakes to lend interest-free money to all borrowers, and cannot do it; if .... ‘The state considers that its purpose is to enlighten, to develop, to enlarge, to strengthen, to spiritualize, and to sanctify the soul of the people’ -- and if the government cannot do all of these things, what then? Is it not certain that after every government failure -- which, alas! is more than probable -- there will be an equally inevitable revolution?”

-Frederic Bastiat, “The Law,” June,  1850

It’s been more than 150 years since Frederic Bastiat wrote his treatise, The Law, a small work, challenging the ravages of failing socialism thrust upon France as a result of the French revolution.

In that unique pamphlet, Bastiat points out that when the law of any country supports the moral belief systems of a people, defends the rights of said people and their property, the law is perceived as being moral; a defense against evil and those who flaunt it as being immoral.  Payment of taxes and civic obligations are perceived as a virtue and those who flout this as criminals.

However, when the law becomes a source of plunder or pits itself in opposition to the morals of the people, the people perceive the law to be immoral and widely despise it.  Indeed, in those times, flouting the law is extolled as virtue.

Another book by contemporary author Hernando Desoto, The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else, points out much the same thing, that the security of ownership of private property guaranteed by law for the lower and middle classes has been the essential ingredient resulting in the prosperity enjoyed by many western countries.  Without this security, where the state becomes an impediment to commerce or property ownership, the people are forced to operate their economies outside of law, which is once again perceived as evil, rather than a force for good.

In essence, when a government goes from being a protector of private property to a plunderer of it, it places itself on a course of chaos, economic ruin and its own ultimate self-destruction.

The Three Steps of Socialism

Socialism is the mechanism which transforms government from its noble role as a protector into a predator and, since the citizens of our fine country seem determined to plow through socialism to its bitter end, we should examine the territory through which these three sad steps lead.  The core result of socialism is the destruction of private property and wealth.

The events described in this piece are a composite of the ravages of socialism experienced in other countries.  While each country does experience all the events portrayed, all socialist countries follow the same miserable path.   The U.S. doesn’t have to go down this path, but it seems determines to do so.

We’re Off to See the Wizard

One of the great dangers of any government by the people is that sooner or later their politicians discover they can vote largess from the public trust.  Their first experiment at this bold new adventure invariably revolves around social programs enacted in the name of morality and the public good or even solving some current crisis.  Who could oppose that?  “After all,” it will be argued, “don’t you care about people, or the welfare of the country, or the environment?”

The lure of this argument has been absolutely irresistible from the Roman Empire to the French and Bolshevik revolutions to Socialist Parties (D) and (R) in the USA today.

Step One - The Moral Argument: A Promise of Something for Nothing

The moral argument that we can finally solve poverty, pain, sickness, and hunger with “free” money seems just to good to be true.  It usually is but it sells to the public.  To fund these allegedly moral programs, the assets of the gentle citizens must be quietly taxed in the name of the public good.

Only a few wise and isolated voices warn that this baby dragon they have just hatched will grow up to be a fire-breathing monster.  But not to fear, the wise voices are generally shouted down by the gentle politicians, who fiercely demonize protestors as selfish “whabbledygots” blocking the road to the perfect society.  After all, how could something so noble do anything bad to the country?

At first the rich are the only ones asked to pay more of their “fair share.”  In the U.S. income tax originally only affected upper-bracket individuals.  In this early stage, few complain and everyone seems happy, except for those nagging voices still warning of dire consequences ahead;  the ones the gentle legislators wish would just shut up.  Other than that they have little to fear because the gentle legislators appear to be heroes placing our feet firmly on the road to utopia.  Soon they promise all the have-nots will have and those who do have, will have just a little less. After all, as we said, it’s just their “fair share.”

Ah but time rumbles onward, and the number of people dependent upon these programs swells along with the number of “free” government programs.  Free things do sell, and that’s what politicians want to do: sell their programs.

As the programs swell, they become unwieldy, requiring large bloated bureaucracies to administer them to ward off the inevitable fraud and corruption, consuming an ever greater part of the tax booty and servicing less to the originally intended recipients.  In order to control the chaos of a large group of people cueing up to get something for nothing, large volumes of laws and regulations have to be written to control who gets what and where and when and who the givers and who the takers are.  Now, the bureaucrats who administer these programs are also dependent on them for their livelihoods.  This entrenches the program and assures its progression to Stage Two.

The Magic Dragon Isn’t Cute Anymore

Somewhere along the line, the gentle legislators discover that their baby dragon has grown and it’s snarling at them a lot.  It wants much food.  They’re not controlling it; it’s controlling them.  However, in order to retain their prestigious position, ever-increasing sources must be found to feed their growing rapacious raptor.

The food source (tax burden) shifts rapidly downward into the middle class, as the gentle politicians coo that only the rich are being soaked.  Concomitant with the increase of taxation, the miracle of hidden taxation through monetary inflation is discovered as central banks print more and more money to allow the good times to continue over and above what direct taxation will allow.

This process of monetary inflation results in debasement of the currency, causing the citizens to work harder and harder and run faster and faster to keep up with the loss of their currency’s value and the concomitant rise of prices.  It’s slow at first but accelerates along an insidious exponential path.  Ultimately it destroys everything the middle class works for.

Additional reptilian food sources called “revenue streams” are created.  More fees, fines, “mitigation payments” and permits are required to do almost anything, driving the cost of doing everything upwards.  Coupled with this is a bewildering array of regulation and laws making the business of life more and more difficult to accomplish.  Big businesses can absorb this but the middle class ultimately buckles under the strain.   The dragon is never satisfied.

Stage 2: Silent War Between Government and Its Citizens

At some point, the unwashed masses suspect their politicians aren’t really gentle any more much less benevolent.  This is where a silent war between government and people erupts.  It’s a blurry transition through never-never land when the politicians still claim to be gentle but the people sense that they have gone from being protectors of the public good and private property to a plunderers of it; from morality to immorality. 

The “Bastiat” transition doesn’t take place all at once but, one by one, members of the working class realize they’re toiling like mad and getting no where.  What they do make is confiscated in taxes or destroyed in inflation.  They have little left over and their life’s savings are being destroyed while the politicians tell them all is just fine, creating cognitive dissonance between the hardship workers experience and the good times the politicians promise.

But those friends of the dragon on the dole still insist the dragon’s intentions are moral, even if its methods are not.  As tax rates push ever higher into confiscatory ranges, self-preservation kicks in and the people take defensive action against what they no longer perceive as moral duty but legally-sanctioned plunder.   They do this at the same time they pretend the gentle politicians are correct even though they know better.

The rich catch on and move their assets offshore and sometimes themselves out of the reach of the dragon; they expatriate.  They have the means to structure their finances in such as way as preserve wealth.  Besides, the politicians are frequently among this class so they aren’t about to let the dragon loose on themselves.

Unfortunately, the middle class doesn’t have this option, so it fights the dragon by engaging in evasive maneuvers.  Citizens cheat on taxes, and seek to conceal taxable assets.  Whenever possible transactions are shielded from the ever-prying eyes of the hungry dragon.

As the ravages of taxation and inflation eat out the middle class’s substance, a vibrant underground economy springs up, utilizing barter, cash, foreign currencies, precious metals or other means to conceal taxable activity.  Regulatory laws are flouted as people try to “see what they can get away with.”   Often times this underground economy has an organized crime component vis a vis the former Soviet Union.

The second half of Stage Two of the war kicks into gear as the dragon responds to the rising opposition and imposes a growing panoply of laws and regulations with increasing fines, penalties and prison sentences.  To block the rampant flouting of law, the dragon wants to monitor everything the citizens do in order to assure that plunder shall be paid, all in the name of the rule of law, public order and morality.  Civil rights break down, all in the name of morality and public security.

Every once in a while the beleaguered middle class pleads with the gentle politicians to fix the problem, unaware that it was the gentle politicians, who created it all in the first place.  But politicians are more than happy to be seen as dragon slayers, and create a series of scapegoats for the problem, transferring blame for the mess and enacting a new series of programs to supposedly fix the problem.  In reality, they just delay the pain, put the dragon on steroids and making the problem far worse.

The war is not without casualties.  As it becomes ever more difficult for small businesses to function in the poisoned atmosphere of taxes, fees, fines, regulations and prosecutions, more of the middle class throws up its hands and goes elsewhere or becomes part of the the dependent poor.  Small business goes out of business or operates illegally.  As inflation devours life savings, people are wiped out.  Retirees have a difficult time getting on as their lifetime achievements are destroyed.  Most of the middle class slides inexorably down the slope into poverty.

There is a moral consequence as scandals erupt in the politico and monied classes.  Disrespect of law is common.  In the free-for-all, everyone is in it for himself and no one can afford to obey the law.  Jails swell with those unfortunate enough to get caught.  As more complex laws are steadily passed, finally all citizens become law-breakers.

This enables the dragon to seek pretexts for seizing the assets of citizens.   Businesses are nationalized.  Wage and price controls are instituted.  Property ownership is forcibly transferred from those who oppose the dragon to those who support it.  Retirement plans are brought under the “protection” of government and their owners left with government-issued IOUs.  Assets are seized on the mere allegation of criminal activity.  Indeed, law enforcement agencies encourage their members to plunder.  They even make arrangements with organized crime at times.  The list of plunder-and-defend possibilities is astounding.

In an effort to stem the hemorrhage, the middle class starts throwing out the rascal politicians, only to elect another group of rascals.  This has little effect, since the dragon is now a self-existing monster that doesn’t require gentle politicians.  By this stage it’s clear:  Small and middle class businesses, ranchers and farmers all know who the enemy is:  the dragon.  There is no illusion that the politicians are gentle or acting in their best interests.

As the security of property ownership declines, investments flee and the economic environment becomes unstable, no one wants to invest where earnings will be heavily taxed, or even the possibility of direct confiscation on the allegation of having violated a plethora of unknowable, unobservable laws.  Doing business is just too dangerous.

As doing business becomes dangerous, investments die, jobs go out of existence, increasing the pain of the working lower and middle classes.  Small business is always the primary creator of employment and it is the most abused.  In the end, the rich are never soaked, the middle class is destroyed and the poor discover that there is no free lunch.

Stage Three:  Dies Irae: A Day of Wrath and Mourning

Ultimately the dragon cannot keep its promises.  This last stage is where events turn nasty and chaotic.  It is a dangerous time.   It is a time no country should ever wish to reach.

Politicians are perceived as ravenous wolves.  Blame and finger-pointing frenzies among politicians erupt to deflect responsibility for the chaos they have caused as they attempt to hold onto their privileged status.

Faith in government dissolves along with faith in the currency.  Widespread flouting of law is common and tax payments quit.  If it gets bad enough, crime flourishes, both organized and random. The domestic economy collapses into a depression and the currency just collapses.

By this time there are several violently outraged groups of people:  the first group consists of those who have been dependent on the dragon for their free programs, and once the dragon reneges on its promises to provide these, they are outraged at the violation of their imagined rights to a free lunch.  This group can include pensioners who paid the dragon money but discover the dragon spent it all before they retired.

The second group is the middle class, who have been beaten to death to feed the dragon and his cronies.  They have lost all their livelihood and property.  This is the point where many revolutions occur.  Sometimes the revolutions are non-bloody and occur only at the voting booths; sometimes they are bloody and violent.  It is a dangerous time because the chaos caused by the breakdown of economic and political order coupled with the collapse of morality often requires brute force to restore order, and brute force is the fertile ground for dictators and the destruction of rights.

One of the great ironies of history is that those who started the mess and benefitted greatly from it are rarely ever called to pay for the crimes and carnage they caused. 

Finally the dragon dies.

Conclusion

No country trapped in socialism goes through all the events described above, which is a composite of past histories.  It can turn itself at any time providing it is prepared to discipline itself the undergo the pain required to get off the public dole, much like coming off an addiction.  Few societies ever want to face that, so they condemn themselves to all three stages.  And the longer they wait to enact the necessary changes, the worse the pain becomes.

From currency, to energy to property rights, issues today are clouded with so much static and partisan bickering that the average person has little real comprehension of what is happening.  Frequently Democrats and Republicans blame each other when often they’re both responsible and fiddle while Rome burns.

America is truly at an economic and moral crossroad, having already started into Stage Two of the sad road to socialism.   Whether or not we plow through all three stages remains to be seen.  It takes great moral courage to prevent this but politicians tend to be neither moral or courageous.

Thus it is up to what actions are moral, legal and necessary to see us, our families and friends safely through the tempest.  But as a ray of hope, it is here where Americans in times past have always shown themselves most noble.
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fubar
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #23 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 12:48pm
 
We are well on our way, deltadarlin

Here's the really sad part...  we've been on this road for a long time. The ones who want socialism have made sure that our populace does not get a proper education, and they stoke the fires of class warfare while at the same time making sure there *are* classes to make war with each other.  Then, they get to swoop in and 'fix' the problem with their socially justified programs.

Look at the banking mess... the same damn people who set it up to fail are now going to 'fix' it by taking it over completely.  Bravo, well played sir.  Oh no, you can't just make loans to people who can pay you back... you have to make loans to people who could never afford to pay you (it's the law).  So they fail.  Then the a-holes who made them make bad loans get to take them over. 

Imagine if they started out by proposing a government takeover of banks when everything was healthy.  There would have been laughter, maybe riots.  But now, we are begging government to step in and 'save' us.  THEY MADE THE PROBLEM FOLKS!  For fucks sake, how stupid can we be?  That train has left the station, and we are all going for a bumpy ride.

Then, Obama steps in and says "There, there, poor countrymen, we will tax all those evil top 5%'ers and give you free health care, free school money, free food and housing, well take care of everything (but only for 95% of you)."

You know what a small business income is?  Look at it this way... if I have a coffee shop (I did) or a bar (I did), my daily income (gross) would have to be lower than $685.  That is the magical $250,000/year limit that Obama says makes me rich and a prime target for taxation to support all the wonderful programs he wants to give all of you po folk.  In a small business, that is peanuts... you have to pay your lease, business insurance, employees, workers comp, cost of good sold, and a thousand other expenses out of that money.  It is not a survivable amount of income for *most* small businesses.

What engine do you think drives this economy?  SMALL BUSINESS.  Obama will tax them to hell.

But, the po folk (bottom 95%) are a large group, and my guess is they do not understand or care that this kind of econimic policy is death.  They want their freebies, so they'll vote (in a very shortsighted, politically correct way) their pocketbooks.


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Kimmie
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Re: Well, I watched the first debate...
Reply #24 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 1:02pm
 
Did anyone count how many times Obama said McCain was right??  Grin
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