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Negative Campaigns (Read 2275 times)
George
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Negative Campaigns
Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:16am
 
Been reading a few things about negative campaigning in the presidential race. (It's probably an occupational hazard that attends being married to a historian, but I often find myself seeking an historical context in current events and considerations of human behavior.) 

Anyway, the stuff we've got going on now seems a mite tepid when compared to some earlier races:

In the 1800 race between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, the Connecticut Courant opined that if Jefferson became president, then "murder, robbery, rape, adultery and incest will be openly taught and practiced, the air will be rent with the cries of the distressed, the soil will be soaked with blood, and the nation black with crimes."

During the 1828 campaign, John Quincy Adams called Andrew Jackson "a cannibal and a murderer".

Gotta love American politics.   Roll Eyes

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George
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #1 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:19am
 
Thanks George and you are right about it. Back then most newspapers were nothing but biased and the vitriol was something to behold.

Charlie
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #2 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:39am
 
Charlie wrote on Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:19am:
Back then most newspapers were nothing but biased

So, what goes around comes around. Nowadays, not by what they report, but by what they choose not to report.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #3 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:51am
 
It's more subtle than that Brew. My hometown paper is to the right of Louis 14th. Nothing is AP here anymore. It's "AP writers" which allow this kind of thing. The ones of old were much worse. You could read nothing good about a rival. There were a lot of...name your city: "Republican" or "Democrat" papers.

Some were pretty good.

Charlie
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« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:51am by Charlie »  

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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #4 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 11:02am
 
What's bad about it is that nothing is "liable" -- every lie is fair game. Half truths and just out and out lies...

Don't want to get into religion here, but I read the "whole" Bible cover to cover and figuered out (for myself) that you can about prove anything to anybody if you just quote the "parts" you choose to prove your point. But if you read the whole thing it might just mean something else entirely.

Take a half sentence and it means one thing -- take the whole sentence and it means something else -- (not what YOU might want it to mean).

I just LOVE politics....

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George
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #5 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 11:29am
 
Charlie wrote on Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:19am:
Thanks George and you are right about it. Back then most newspapers were nothing but biased and the vitriol was something to behold.

Charlie


Comparisons can be drawn between 18th and 19th century pamphleteers, and the bloggers of today.  The tech is different, but the practices remain the same.   Wink

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George 
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #6 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:43pm
 
I do not want to stick my nose in American politics, as they are none of my business.... but there is one thing I've always wondered about. Why does everyone get so personal? Why the speculations that Obama is a muslem (I'm sure he's not... is he?).
It becomes a lot like throwing sh*t at eachother, which must make it very hard for the average American to take these politicians seriously.

Just puzzled.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #7 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 2:07pm
 
maalstroom wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:43pm:
I do not want to stick my nose in American politics, as they are none of my business.... but there is one thing I've always wondered about. Why does everyone get so personal? Why the speculations that Obama is a muslem (I'm sure he's not... is he?).
It becomes a lot like throwing sh*t at eachother, which must make it very hard for the average American to take these politicians seriously.

Just puzzled.


Well let me explain it to you Wink

You got two candidates with BIG problems to solve and neither knows how to solve them, so they each tell you the other is a crook and a bad person the one that convinces you about the other one gets elected and nothing gets done cause he didn't know what to do in the first place.

Now is that all clear?  Undecided Undecided

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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #8 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 2:49pm
 
Negative campaigning can't even hold a candle to the threat represented by voter fraud. It makes a mockery out of our system and must be stopped, or we'll all be living in a banana republic.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #9 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:22pm
 
BarbaraD wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 2:07pm:
Now is that all clear?  Undecided Undecided


Not really. It doesn't explain why you (the voters) get so personal about it.
Our politicians surely aren't any better than yours but we don't get that personal about it.

Maybe it's only a cultural thing...

Oliver
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Melissa
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #10 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 3:41pm
 
I never understood either why people are so passionate about a candidate myself.

I am passionate about freedom, liberty, and my right to vote.  I am also concerned with uncovering the truth.

As for candidates, uhhh, no thanks.  It is up to the candidate to defend their positions, not me. Smiley
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #11 - Oct 15th, 2008 at 8:51pm
 
maalstroom wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:43pm:
I do not want to stick my nose in American politics, as they are none of my business.... but there is one thing I've always wondered about. Why does everyone get so personal? Why the speculations that Obama is a muslem (I'm sure he's not... is he?).
It becomes a lot like throwing sh*t at eachother, which must make it very hard for the average American to take these politicians seriously.

Just puzzled.


Obama isn't Muslim of course but every time someone takes time to say it isn't so, pit peels away a few votes for him. It's pretty sad stuff.

The reason our politicians get into so much personal stuff is that they are terrified of making a gaff or getting caught having to deal with the real world. It's always safer to quote a lot of iffy personal or embarrassing stuff gathered by a campaign staff than to get serious. All it takes is an apology when they go overboard on personal attacks. On the other, they can alienate millions of people in a few seconds.

Our debates are ridiculous. They have what is called "contracts" with sponsors and even the moderator to not give them a hard time. They are the ones that decide the type of questions and also can veto any moderator they don't like and have done so many times. It's not new and and is an insult to the voters.

Charlie
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #12 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 3:05am
 
At first, about a year orso ago when it all started, I was very excited about the fact that it now was possible to see an American president who was either a black man or a woman..... wouldn't that be the coolest!
In the year past, I've come to realize that Obama is WAY too left for me and I cannot get over the fact that he wants to deal with people like Amhinnedjihab (or what's his face, ya know the Iranian president).
Furthermore I hear stories of him receiving money from Hamas related people, though I'm not sure what is true or just gossip. Remember, I'm no American and do not follow it closely like you guys do.

I am glad I don't have to make a choice, as your Democrats are too left for me, but your Republicans are too rightwing for me. I'd hate the fact of having only 2 options at elections!
Personally, I am for a strong free market economy, but with health care for all. I am pro-choice, pro euthanesia and think religion has nothing to do with politics.
So what would I have to vote? Pretty impossible.

Pascal.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #13 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 9:00am
 
maalstroom wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 3:05am:
I'd hate the fact of having only 2 options at elections!

Pascal!!!  You hit the nail on the head with this one!  America does NOT only have 2 options, actually, we have MANY options!  But unfortunately, it takes millions and millions of dollars for those 3rd party options to reach the millions of Americans it needs to through the mainstream media.  Not only that, there is also the corruption of the media due to money also.  That's why I love youtube and the internet so much.  I can actually find out the truth!

BTW, if you want to see who's running for president, here is a Wikipedia link: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #14 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 9:23am
 
Quote:
as your Democrats are too left for me, but your Republicans are too rightwing for me.


You, me, and the vast majority of Americans my friend.........sigh

And just playing here, but so what if Obama was a Muslim? I wonder what % of tax revenue the USA collects comes from non-Christian Americans, but they don't seem to be looked at like they deserve representation under any circumstance.

The funny thing is that this going on supports my stance in the "Racism and assholes" thread. No one thinks they are "a racist" but somehow a being a Muslim and running for president seems to be on par with raping and murdering babies, or at the very least is somehow taken into consideration by most "non-racist" Americans. Wanting to disclude anyone for a job, based on their skin color / sex / religion certainly is an "ist".

And some people are offended when people want to add their culture to the word "American" (like "American Muslim"). I think those people want to combine their culture with the word "American" not to divide themselves from the "just Americans", but instead they want to remind everyone that while they look different than mainstream Americans  (like an Asian, or a Muslim, or a African) they really are Americans.

It is to get themselves included, not exculded as a lot of people think and then take offense to.

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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #15 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 10:20am
 
Mel, I just checked the list.... are you saying all those people are running right now for the White House? Then why don't we ever hear of them? Is it maybe because for us Europeans it would get too complicated and therefor the media focusses only on the Big Two?
The only time in my life I ever saw a third candidate was when that Ross Perrot joined in, I think he was running against Bill Clinton and Bush sr.
I do remember some other people who fell off during the race, such as Bob Dole. He cracked me up, seemed like he never spoke off himself as ''I''.
And the guy who couldn't spell potato hahahaha, wow he must've been the laughing stock of the country.

Superhawk, I am very ambivalent on the muslem matter.
For instance, the probably soon to be mayor of Rotterdam is a muslem, a good man who holds dear our Western values and is not afraid to speak firmly to his own people, both the Islamists and what we Dutch call ''reljeugd'' (literally: riot youth).
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On the one hand we see muslems who have fully adapted to Western society and have succed in life, like this Aboutaleb, and there's many more examples.
However, on the other hand, we see either the extremely fanatical religious idiots who preach against us and stir up hatred among the disenchanted youth. Or we see the socalled riotyouth who rob, beat people up, attack ambulance and firebrigades doing their job, throw rocks at passing cars and busses, and so on and so on.

I have to distinguish, as it is mostly Moroccan youthgangs. The Turks for instance, another large minority, is for the most part fully integrated and succesfull. Why? I don't know, but maybe because their culture is a much secularized one as well. They never riot, neither do other groups such as the Chinese, the Indonesians, the Surinamers, the Koreans.

Off course there are many good people also, and we cherish them. But I for one am totally fed up with the almost explosive situation in different European countries. I fear sometimes for the future.  Sad

To me, the American president doesn't have to be a Christian. I don't care if it's a Jew,  a Hindu, a Buddhist or a pagan. As long as religion doesn't interfere with politics.
But what would it mean to for example Israel if a muslem became president of the USA?

And no, it's not racist if one wants their Western country to stay that, to not become islamized.
I'd have the same reaction if large groups of evangelicals or catholics wanted to turn everything upside down.

All the best, Pascal.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #16 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 3:30pm
 
Thanks for the comments! I appreciate the time you took to write them out - helps understand what overseas's people see.

I got a few comments if you are inclinded to see them. Not looking for a fight, just a good back and forth. Smiley

Quote:
extremely fanatical religious idiots who preach against us and stir up hatred among the disenchanted youth


I don;t like much extremism and think extremist Christians are just as bad as any other groups. The probelm is, in America, they are more familiar so people are more tolerant of the behavior. That is one reason I am so down on Palin and Bush. If some leader in the Middle East came out and publicly said that God talked to them and told them they are doing God's work by using their military in America's part of the world to bring peace, Americans would be calling to launch nukes. But Bush and now Palin have professed to know God's plan and think the USA governemnt is part of that plan and they plan to use their power appointed to them by the tax payers of the secular USA to carry out god's plan.

Quote:
  As long as religion doesn't interfere with politics.
But what would it mean to for example Israel if a muslem became president of the USA?

And no, it's not racist if one wants their Western country to stay that, to not become islamized.
I'd have the same reaction if large groups of evangelicals or catholics wanted to turn everything upside down.


Well that is THE problem, as you point out. The fact the the extreme right has gotten its large groups to turn everything upside down in the USA. It has been a big issue for a long-time - groups trying, and succeeding in getting their religion in the USA government.

Good examples are having God added to the pledge of allegiance and printed on our money. Those things are very recent additions snuck in by extreme right wingers and most people think they were part of the package the framers left for us, and the people who got those things added are encouraging those thoughts.

I wish people wouldn't try to fix stuff that isn't broken.

Cheers!
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #17 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 4:41pm
 
George wrote on Oct 13th, 2008 at 10:16am:
In the 1800 race between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, the Connecticut Courant opined that if Jefferson became president, then "murder, robbery, rape, adultery and incest will be openly taught and practiced, the air will be rent with the cries of the distressed, the soil will be soaked with blood, and the nation black with crimes."

Thomas Jefferson, eh?  Funny, I've repeatedly seen the same general accusations leveled at today's Libertarians!  Some things never change!

Regards,
Jim
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #18 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 7:21pm
 
maalstroom wrote on Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:43pm:
I do not want to stick my nose in American politics, as they are none of my business.... but there is one thing I've always wondered about. Why does everyone get so personal? Why the speculations that Obama is a muslem (I'm sure he's not... is he?).
It becomes a lot like throwing sh*t at eachother, which must make it very hard for the average American to take these politicians seriously.

Just puzzled.


Quote:
I am glad I don't have to make a choice, as your Democrats are too left for me, but your Republicans are too rightwing for me. I'd hate the fact of having only 2 options at elections!


For most of our history, the idea that Democrats and Republicans are too left or too right is a mis-conception. Candidates historically run for office by pandering to the extreme wings of their party but govern from the center. Recently though, because of the Christian far right.....always abortion of course....the Republicans are stuck with this group during elections. George W. Bush has broken this mold by trying to govern from the far right wing only. This is new in recent history and the incredible amount of damage he has done to his party is evident in recent elections and why McCain is having such a difficult time with Sarah Palin. No matter what McCain says, she is there only to secure the anti-abortion Christian conservatives. Democrats have been forced into a defensive mode and as a result the far left hasn't had much luck.....so far. It's an abberation that needs to die quickly.

There is a positive thing though as a lot of younger Republicans have little interest in the regressive and inflexible politics of Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson (the so-called leaders of the cause) and may force the party to rejoin the rest of the country as theirs is a minority position. If they don't, it won't be pretty. At least GOP candidates know enough to run as far away from George Bush as possible. You don't see him anywhere during this campaign.

It will be a great thing as Republicans have often been a good counterweight and have a history of good ideas as well. Sadly, finding that type of Republican is no easy thing.

Charlie



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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #19 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 11:27am
 
[quote author=2B2D283D2A30392F336A6B6868580 link=1223907414/0#16 date=1224271827]Not looking for a fight, just a good back and forth. Smiley

Superhawk, I never thought you were  Wink, so no worries!

Thanx to you and Charlie for explaining so much to me, it is greatly appreciated!

All the best, Pascal.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #20 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 9:00pm
 
And of course it goes without saying that mine is only one view and depending on who's shoes one is wearing the view could be completly nuts or totally sane!

taker easy over there.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #21 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 12:21am
 
It's actually pathetic that candidates need to use such a low tactic.  It's completely dishonorable.  If you ask me, neither Obama or McCain are good enough to run the country.  If I remember right, they promised to run a 'clean' campaign.

Attack ads, having your supporters become so brainwashed they start shouting out things like 'Kill him!' and 'No-bama', while having the attitude and appearance of a political 'neo-nazi' campaign...that doesn't speak 'good leader' to me.  It shouldn't to anyone.

McCain says he disbands and disassociates with those who attack in such ways..yet Palin and that one priest ('May you, God, rise above these other 'gods' and help our friend gain victory in this election'...yeah: If that isn't intolerance, then I don't know what is) are still associated with the guy.  What's up with that?

Truly, the McCain party has more flaws than the Obama ticket...yet Obama isn't free of this type of campaign tactic.

It doesn't matter HOW many times you mudsling: The very first time anyone in your party-or yourself, even-does mudslingng, then you are marked with running a dirty campaign.

Basically this is what I'm saying: How can we trust either candidate when they can't even keep their word when they say they'll run a clean campaign.

...though 'll never vote Republican: This year, democrats don't look good, either.
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #22 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 12:27am
 
John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics was on 20/20 last night.  Anybody watch it?

If not, it's on Youtube (couldn't find it on the abc website) in 6 parts.  

ETA all the links

Part 1  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
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« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2008 at 10:45am by Melissa »  

Diseases can be our spiritual flat tires - disruptions in our lives that seem to be disasters at the time but end by redirecting our lives in a meaningful way.  ~Bernie S. Siegel
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Re: Negative Campaigns
Reply #23 - Oct 19th, 2008 at 8:02am
 
That was good Mel.... good find.. I enjoyed it.

Think I'm gonna apply for a farm subsidy Smiley  To not grow anything...

Hugs BD

It was really interesting about the campaign reform bill... I thought it was REFORM - that one blew my mind...
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