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Help Sarah (my daughter)! (Read 2351 times)

deltadarlin

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Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Oct 26^th, 2008 at 8:13pm

A lot of you know that Sarah is in grad school. She works her butt off to keep up her grades and everything. Usually, she doesn't need help, but now she does. For one of her classes, she's doing a group project entitled "The Way it Wasn’t: Protest Songs During Vietnam".

The gist of the project is stated with three questions:
"Three questions must be answered: Why did the artists feel the need to be so anti-war? What effect did their songs have on the listeners, if it had any effect at all? And finally, was there any progression of hatred for the war expressed in the lyrics from the beginning of the war to the end?"

For the second part, Sarah has devised a short survey. They are as follows:

1) What is your memory of the Vietnam War?
2) How old were you?
3) What was your role? Did you not care? Did you serve? Did you protest the war?
4) Do you remember the music of the era?
5) If so, how did the anti-war music affect you?

Note: To make this case study be effective, it is necessary to ask people who were at least in their teens or older during the Vietnam era.

For those of you that were old enough, could you answer these for her? I'll relay your answers to her. No names will be used in the paper, unless you just REALLY want your name to appear in a history research paper.

-delta

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Kevin_M

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #1 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 1:05am

She might check these songs out.

Sixties AM radio was pretty hit oriented and most likely anything extreme was filtered out, the direct message kind of hidden. I listened to these two, the Doors was on an album and the Animals a single:

Doors Unknown Soldier

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Animals Sky Pilot

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From '70 on, FM hits were more straight forward, these two were on albums.

Creedence Clearwater Fortunate Son

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Black Sabbath War Pigs

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It's all I can remember now.

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Linda_Howell

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #2 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 1:28am

Oh wow Carolyn, you may have opened up a l;ot of wounds taking into consideration the latest threads about Nam that Barb started. Angry

What is your memory of the Vietnam War?

Watching the death toll nightly at dinner time on T.V.
Being so pissed at Jane Fonda.
Saying good=bye to boyfriends fresh out of high school.
Learning that they came home in a body bag.

I was not in the military....but you know? even talking about this now angers me and makes me not want to talk about it. I sure can see why the vets don't want to talk.

sorry, I can't be of more help.

Hurt people.....hurt people. Think about it.

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Linda_Howell CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Do not feed the Moderators Posts: 11927 Santa Maria, Ca. Gender:	Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)! Reply #3 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 2:09am This is a good synopsis. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or The best song that epitomizes that war, in my opinion. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or
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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #4 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 7:14am

I was a preteen but had a great memory and was influenced by this war. My Dad was a career officer and a West Point graduate. I had 2 older sisters too. I was living in Arizona, Dad was in grad school. I was 7 & 8 (67, 68). My babysitter had a boyfirend in Viet Nam. We used to write letters to him when she babysat and kissed them with lipstick. He didn't make it home. That was my first experience with death of war. We were stationed down to Panama after his school was completed. I loved it there and remember the stong rock and roll blaring from the Teen center (I was too young to go inside). Dad's tour was abruptley interupted with orders to go to Viet Nam. Friends my age (10) told me "you know your Dad's going to die there". We had to leave Panama, which I LOVED and moved up to Colorado Springs, because my mom wanted to be somewhere different. My sister was 16 and totally rebellious, running away, hitting my parents, telling my Dad he didn't have to go and she hated them. At 11 I stood and watched this. It didn't stop all year, even after he left and the police were at the house at least once a month. The music wasn't calm. The ballads were usually only heavy rock. I remember the presence of drugs in the music more than the war, like Jefferson Airplanes, White Rabbit. Were we trying to mask the pain of the war with drugs? I always pulled apart the Beatles music too. It wasn't until the early 70's that I really could hear what they were saying, probably because I was getting older and listening more.

My Dad came home after 10 months of a 1 year tour because my sister had totalled a car. Mom just couldn't take it anymore. This relationship my Dad had with my sister was awful and she ran away a few months later and wasn't heard from for 4 months. My Dad often has said coming home early was probably a big reason he never was promoted to a General. He retired after 28 years as a Colonel.

In summary (sorry to go on so long) I think the war tore my family apart. It has made me very active today with my students who have family at war. I really loved the music and still pick up different feelings from it when I listen today.

Charlotte

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catlind

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #5 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 7:53am

I was too young for Vietnam to effect me, and also living in Canada. But this song always epitomized the war for me:

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Bob Dylan, Blowin in the Wind
"And how many deaths will it take til he knows, to many people have died"

« Last Edit: Oct 27^th, 2008 at 7:58am by catlind »

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sailpappy

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #6 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 8:34am

Delta,
   This is a very sensitive issue for a lot of us, dredges up old wounds and scar's that have long been suppressed, if you know what I mean.
   As a Parent and Grandparent I will participate for your Daughters edifacation.
1) What is your memory of the Vietnam War?
   Gruesome atrocities were being commited and our very way of life seemed threatened by the press coverage depiction, driving the feeling of urgancy to be involved in saving Democrocy.

2) How old were you?
   I was 17 years old when I enlisted in the Army

3) What was your role? Did you not care? Did you serve? Did you protest the war?
   I was a helicopter Mechanic and a Door Gunner who sat behind a 60 caliber machine gun all day, every day

4) Do you remember the music of the era?
   You bet, this was the era of the hippy, the very dawn of the rock and roll evolution, Beatles,The Doors, Bob Dylan, Iron Butterfly, Jimmi Hendrex, Janis Joplin,Crosby,Stills,Nash and Young and many, many more!

5) If so, how did the anti-war music affect you?
   Especially during my tour of duty in Viet Nam it made me proud that people were standing up for a higher awareness and striving to find peace, helped pass many hours of stress under a set of headphones rocking out with Led Zepplin

   One factor not addressed here is how it still affects us, there were things that happened during that time period that were burnt into the very fabric of who we turned out to be and a lot of us are still haunted by the memories of the horror's of war that we wittnessed.

   Hope this helped!    John

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #7 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 8:51am

If anyone wants to see a very early Bob Seger doing a protest song released in '68, I believe this is it, I can't view it. It got local play here but don't know if it was national. Great song, straight forward, hope it's like the record version.

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Words here:

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Bob P

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #8 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:38am

Welcome home Pappy.

Country Joe
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1) What is your memory of the Vietnam War?
A year spent following orders, going through the motions and not having a freakin' idea why we were there or what we were trying to accomplish.

2) How old were you?
17 when I enlisted, 18 when I went to Nam.

3) What was your role? Did you not care? Did you serve? Did you protest the war?
Graduated high school in '68. Enlisted in the Navy. Volunteered for Viet Nam. Served ('69-'70) with River Patrol Force.

4) Do you remember the music of the era?
Most definately. Still listen to it every once in a while. Brings back lots of "stuff".

5) If so, how did the anti-war music affect you?
When I came home I drifted toward the anti-war movement. The anti-war music echoed my sentments/doubts. I think this was because I still had no idea why were there and if we had to be there, why we weren't fighting the war with everthing we had. Limited warfare makes no sense! I wanted my buddies to come home alive (my best friend didn't).
Now that I understand the war better, I am proud to have served but resent that the Government was swayed by some protests, pulled out of Nam and basically made those lost lives for not (which is also something McCain understands and won't let happen in Iraq).

« Last Edit: Oct 27^th, 2008 at 1:26pm by Bob P »

Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron. "SHUT UP HUB!"

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AussieBrian CH.com Hall of Famer Offline CH - It's all in your head! Posts: 3851 Cairns, Qld, Australia Gender:	Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)! Reply #9 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:35am I don't know how to do song links on the internet but there's an Aussie song on the subject written well after the war that may be of interest to her studies. It's called "I was only 19" and sung by a mob called Redgum. Ex-servicemen be warned - it cuts pretty close.
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catlind CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Surf's Up! Posts: 4536 Weaverville NC Gender:	Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)! Reply #10 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 12:30pm Brian here's a link: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or and yes you're right it cuts very close
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deltadarlin

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #11 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 12:35pm

Hi everyone,

This is Carolyn's daughter, Sarah posting from her account (with her permission, mind you!).

For those of you that have answered the survey, I am and will be forever grateful for your doing so (and to anyone else that does so).

For those of you that are, or may be, confused by my questions, here is a further explanation. The most important question is the last question, as the research is primarily focused on the anti-war music of Vietnam. The previous questions are just for basis, so I can have something to back up the views of the music.

For those of you that have posted links, thank you so much. I'll be looking at them shortly. Due to lack of time (and sources - my university doesn't have the greatest sources), we're focusing on a small number of bands:

Bob Dylan
Country Joe & the Fish
The Buffalo Springfield
Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young
Creedence Clearwater Revival
Jefferson Airplane

For those of you that this may have caused memories that you would rather forget, I'm sorry. By no means did I think that it would; however, we're taught in history that everything matters. Your answers have given me insight into things I wouldn't necessarily know had you not answered the questions (and excellent primary sources). So once again, thank you.

-Sarah

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Kevin_M

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #12 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 12:47pm

Not helpful much, only an outside-looking-in scan, but inclusive perhaps because:

Quote:

...at least in their teens or older during the Vietnam era.

Why did the artists feel the need to be so anti-war?

Different reasons, some were anti-establishment (MC5), others told of how the war touched home, the sadness of early deaths, questioning government.

What effect did their songs have on the listeners, if it had any effect at all?

The same, awareness, sadness, questioning of government.

And finally, was there any progression of hatred for the war expressed in the lyrics from the beginning of the war to the end?"

I think so. By the 70's more personal stories were being heard firsthand of the later years there that shed an impressioned negative light.

1) What is your memory of the Vietnam War?

Reading the news, mostly event to event, Gulf of Tonkin, Tet offensive, National Liberation Front, Viet Cong, Communists, Vietnamization, Lt. Calley, Laos, Cambodia, protests.

2) How old were you?

Turned 18 less than 30 days after the draft was halted.

3) What was your role? Did you not care? Did you serve? Did you protest the war?

No role. Cared, it seemed inevitably in my future, draft lottery hit me Dec. '72, draft was halted Jan. '73, I was to report Feb. '73 (hard to remember, draft card may have said 1h classification, maybe an f). No. Only once after the My Lai incident became known.

4) Do you remember the music of the era?

Posted a few remembered songs.

5) If so, how did the anti-war music affect you?

Not much. Didn't fit in, too unsettled for peaceniks, not interested in any destruction or hate of radicalism having had the '67 riots close at hand. Escalation seemed to continue anyway. Fell in with out-there total nonconformity, not knowing what to do about having to step on the conveyor belt to the Far East. Unprepared, a whole future in the balance, live today, no plans.

Considering the events of the past in Viet Nam since before WWII,
a truly tall and immensely brave undertaking our boys would be sent to settle.

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #13 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 6:07pm

Sarah,

Your topic has been with me all day, making me think. I just took the music for granted. It was always on, my Dad and sister argued about that too but one thing I remember well was all of the Woodstock discussions and records. I listed to that album alot because it seemed to be saying what I felt. I wanted the war over and my Dad and my friends Dad's home. Woodstock came out the year my Dad was in Viet Nam. I loved "Our House" by Crosby, Stills Nash and Young because it was so sweet and what I wished my life would be like after the turmoil I had been dealing with. Just some more thoughts!

Charlotte

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ClusterChuck

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #14 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 10:35pm

OMG ... What a time. What memories come back. I read of this request, but I had think long and hard in how to best answer it. I hope what I have to say, helps. You may, if you wish, contact me directly. I will send my phone number, if you want it.

As far as protest songs of the period, there were THOUSANDS of them. Here is a list, in no particular order, of some of the more important ones, in my mind:

John Lennon – Give peace a chance
Barry McGuire - Eve of Destruction
Bob Dylan - The Times They Are A-Changin
Bob Dylan - Blowin' In the Wind
The Rascals - People Got to Be Free
The Hollies - He Ain`t Heavy He`s My Brother
Donovan - Universal Soldier
Phil Ochs - The Draft Dodger Rag
Tom Paxton - Lyndon Johnson Told the Nation
Pete Seeger - Where Have All the Flowers Gone?

Many of the popular songs of the period could be interpreted as a protest song. Some of the classic songs of the period, that are now listened to for pure entertainment value, were used during demonstrations and touted to be protest songs.

Remember who we were back then: HIPPIES!
We were against our parents.
We were against our teachers.
We were against our social sigmas.
We were against our law enforcement agencies.
We were against our government.
We were against our president.

Yet, we were VERY proud to be Americans!

What were we for? PEACE AND LOVE

What was the most popular call of our generation? MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR

It was a generation of rebellion.
We were young.
We were naive.
We were believers in Utopia.
We were going to change the world.

The music of the time, was our God, almost. Bob Dylan was almost regarded as a Messiah. He spoke the words we believed in. He spoke out FOR our beliefs. Pete Seeger was another musical hero, to us. Donovan ... So many others.

I enlisted into the Navy, in 1968. I was 18. I went into the Navy, because I wanted a choice of where I went. I did NOT want to get drafted into the Army, and then sent to some far off rice paddy to get my ass blown off. If I was forced to fight in this "conflict" I wanted it to be from a ship! By the time I enlisted, I had already seen two of my home town boys brought back in body bags. One was a very close friend and mentor to me. With the personality and training that these two guys had, they NEVER should have been put into the front line infantry. Their talents (and LIVES) could have been used, much more efficiently, in other areas.

There was tremendous resentment for being over there, and in our minds, kept from doing the job right. We felt that the politicians were running the war, not the military expert Generals and Admirals. They were sending us to war, with our hands tied behind our backs.

We were willing to enlist, and go to war, because we loved our country, and this is where our military was being sent, even if we didn't believe in THAT particular skirmish, and seeing we WERE there, we sure didn't like the way it was being run. We felt like the politicians wanted us over there, but didn't want us to win.

While I was stationed in Washington DC, I participated in MANY rallies against the war. And, yes, I can tell you what it is like to be tear gassed and clubbed by the police. A lot of people could not understand how I could be IN the service, yet participate in the rallies against Viet Nam. Well, I was (and still am) a strong believer in the military, but against us being in Viet Nam.

The music of the time, was everpresent.
It was our lifeblood.
It rallied us.
It soothed us.
It supported us.
It spoke for us.
It was our mantra.

I could go on and on, but this is already too long. I hope that what I wrote answered your questions. Feel free to contact me if you want clarification on anything I have said.

BTW, as a foot note, I knew, very personally, four people on the Viet Nam Memorial Wall. I can't go there, without tears streaming down my face, I don't care how many times I go, and I have been MANY times.

A very interesting side note, when I brought Svenn and Bente to the wall, (they gave me time to myself, thankfully) I had three total strangers come up to me and say that they were sorry for my loss. They had no idea who I was, nor what my connection was to the names on that wall, yet they offered their condolences. How things have changed. I remember VERY well, being literally spit on, when walking down the street, in my uniform!

Chuck

PS: The above are MY thoughts and experiences of the times. It is not, in any way, meant to demean or piss off someone who had/has differing thoughts and ideas of the time period.

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #15 - Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:23pm

Hi Sarah,

Understanding where you are coming from in seeking this I'll answer, although like others it has opened some scabs that I try to forget are there.

1) frustration! I was terribly frustrated at our government and the appeasement attitude toward the Communists that still exists today in a large segment. I was frustrated that we were not allowed to fight to win and to end the situation.

2)I was 18 in 1972. My draft #was 4, so I was scheduled to be sworn in to the Marine Corps, but Nixon ended the draft just four days before and my recruiter recommended I go to college instead. I knew that if I was going to have to go I wanted to go in an outfit that fitted with my understanding of the role of the military.
I guess this also covers 3). I did not protest. I believed that we needed to stand up against Communist aggression. We backed down in Korea, and Viet Nam was just the next step. I was convinced that if we did not stand up we would just be facing them somewhere else.

4) I remember the music pretty well, although it was not my style of music. By and large the entire entertainment industry of the time was antithetical to all that I stood for. Several of the leading musicians had ties to leftist organizations that I had no use for, hence I didn't participate in their music. That extended to other forms of media and entertainment as well.

5)I partially answered this with #4. It sickened me. I heard to much that was tearing down my country. Being older now I understand a bit more of where it was coming from, but then, and to a large degree I still am disgusted by the ones who were tearing at the very fabric of our culture and the basis or our democratic republic. I was angered also at the media who even then were leftist in their leanings and the way they portrayed what was going on.

Please feel free to PM me if there is any other way I can help you with this project.

BTW, even though I did not fight over there, I lost some good friends and my girlfriend's brother. What really angered me then and still to this day is the way their lives were devalued and wasted by the Johnson administration who got us into that mess with no intention of winning, but just playing politics.
Jerry

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of dung by the clean end." Texas A&M Student (unknown)

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Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)!
Reply #16 - Nov 5^th, 2008 at 10:33pm

Sorry I missed this one.

SailPap and Bob P - Welcome home indeed.

My father was an arty forward observer stationed on firebase hills. Not fun I gather. Lived in a cement culvert half submerged in water for 6 months.

As a generation that war has missed I cannot fathom having to do the gigantic tasks these men had to endure for the lamest of (incorrect) reasons.

When the travling Vietnam Memorial comes around, I ask my dad if he wants to go see it. He say "Memorial. What would I want to "remember" any of that shit?"

I belong to a non-profit men's support group that has an affilated group called The Bamboo Bridge that helps heal men's wounds from the Vietnam War. I've done some work for them. My father tried to attend my group but left shortly after arriving. Needless to say there is a million ways that war has affected my family.

Sorry for rambling.

If I could see into my dad's mind, I think he would suggest "Hard Rain" by Dylan.

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thebbz Ex Member	Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)! Reply #17 - Nov 5^th, 2008 at 11:00pm Bob P took mine. Country Joe. Maybe watch Good Morning Vietnam. all the best the bb
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deltadarlin CH.com Alumnus Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 3823 Downsville LA Gender:	Re: Help Sarah (my daughter)! Reply #18 - Nov 6^th, 2008 at 8:06am A big thank-you to all. The paper is due today, and I hope the other 2 pick up their end of the work. Will let everybody know how it turns out. Carolyn
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