I have looked deeper into the idea of the use of soft drinks containing caffeine.  I have also talked to a pharmacologist to help me, and understand some things about caffeine and headaches.  I still do not see a correlation, other than a speculative correlation, as caffeine causes headaches, at more or less the same rate, as it can abort it.  Still, there is a tractable and reproducible, indication that caffeine could help as a plausible abortive alternative.
BUT:
I cannot see how one can abort one’s headaches with soft drinks containing caffeine.  The amount is so dismal that unless one is so sensitive to caffeine, that if that individual were to drink a normal cup of milk coffee he will go into a “caffeine flush”.  And furthermore, in order to achieve an abort of a CH episode, one would need to use so much of the discussed soft drink that at the end of the day it would very much “compliment” ones figure.
But, I don’t know. I am still searching the net.  Also a co-worker that is a chemist/pharmacologist (her father has CH) is looking in some more professional books and publications for related information, correlating soft drinks containing caffeine, and aborting headaches, but so far, without much of useful (reliable) information.
I have to add, that in a resent post the dictum posted, clamed, the CH episodes have been cured, and if I understand the post right, the soft drink containing caffeine is not used as an abortive, it is rather a preventive or even better, it is a CURE. I cannot find any reference to the quantities involved, in order to achieve the ultimate goal of cure, so I cannot even try and speculate.  But I do not think it is possible, not even remotely possible.  It must be some sort of a bizarre coincidence that the CH episodes subsided for whatever reason there is.  Due to the coincidence, the use of the drink and disappearance of CH has been (innocently) correlated to the use of the soft drink.
I have collected some data about the Quantities of Caffeine in various drinks:
       Product                  Serving size            Caffeine per serving (mg)            Caffeine per litre (mg
Coffee, Starbucks            Tall 12 U.S. fl oz            240                              650-700
Coffee, brewed                   207 mL (7 U.S. fl oz)            80–135                              386–652
Coffee, drip                  207 mL (7 U.S. fl oz)             115–175 555                        845
Coffee, espresso             44–60 mL (1.5-2 U.S. fl oz)      100                               1691–2254
Excedrin tablet                   1 tablet                        65                              N/A
Caffeine tablet (extra strength)       1 tablet                   200                              N/A
Red Bull                  250 mL (8.2 U.S. fl oz)            80                              320
Soft drink, Coca-Cola            355 mL (12 U.S. fl oz)             34                               96

I have no idea (or for that matter, can I believe) how it is possible to even logically argue that a soft drink can provide any relief, let alone be a cure for CH, unless one would drink about 21 liters (about 5 gallons) of the soft drink, per day just to be equivalent to a small espresso, or drink about 7 liters (about 2 gallons) of soft drink to be equivalent to a simple cup of coffee.
I find it absurd, to even argue that it is possible to abort a CH episode, let alone find cure, and imagine the “compliment” to ones figure with just 4 litres/1 gallon per day, as well as other adverse effects due to excessive use of such high Sucrose (disaccharide  C₁₂H₂₂O₁₁) use.


Michael

Guiseppi,

The energy drinks are a totally deferent group of product, providing 2 ingredients that seem in combination
to provide relief at an on set of a CH episode, in combination with O2 or other methods, and seem to provide
total relief for some for the Shadows.
But do note the amount of caffeine in red bull and in Soft drinks…
Red Bull    250 mL (Serving size 8.2 U.S. fl oz)     80 per serving (mg)    320 Caffeine per litre (mg)
Soft drink    355 mL (Serving size 12 U.S. fl oz)     34 per serving (mg)    96 Caffeine per litre (mg)
and then add the Taurine “factor” and you get a plausible abortive method! I my self use it at times for shadows, I just distaste the “sticky” flavour of the energy drinks, but if needed I will go beck to it and use it, and yet I would question any one that would say that energy drinks can be used as preventive, or even better, provide full relive, that is a cure….

Michael

mountain dew, coke, pepsi, and root beer are all trigers for me

Oh big time Jimi!! Christy would wake up at 3:00 am and find me sorting tupperware drawers in the kitchen!!! I've never actually tried speed..........but cafergot has gotta be a close second!!!

And back to the original post.......I have to agree I struggle with the concept that the small amount of caffeine in a single soda is sufficient to abort an attack. But being completely uneducated about chemistry, I don't have enough of a foundation to comment either!

Guiseppi

I'm a heavy coffee drinker, so caffeine doesn't do anything for CH.  But those who get relief from caffeine should certainly look into the caffeine content in various drinks.  Withdrawal after the cycle may not be fun though.....caffeine sensitive folks need to gradually reduce.  And be careful of aspartame if one goes with "sugar free" sodas and energy drinks; aspartame triggers HA's for a lot of non-CH people.  I'm also lucky enough to abort CH with O2 very quickly, and I started using it as sort of a preventive measure if I feel any pressure in my head, whether it's a pre-CH shadow or a *normal* headache.

As far as taurine is concerned.......... it's not a bad idea for all of us to supplement it.  It's a good antioxidant, and I up my taurine intake during episodes to protect my heart and other organs from Verapamil.  It's cheap and considered pretty safe.

I'll consider adding L-carnitine in the next episode.

MrsT wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 4:51pm:


Ummmm.....not sure about "protecting heart from verapamil" where does that come from? From what I've read, it enhances the effect of verapamil, which may NOT be a good thing.

My treating neuro (headache specialist) made me promise NOT to take taurine as she says it is highly active in the brain and not nearly understood as to actions. She insists it PROLONGS or triggers ch episodes.

Full disclosure here...I have the utmost respect and regard for this doc, BUT have not been able to quit taurine. Makes me a liar so take from my take as you will...

Best,

Jon

wildhaus wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 8:17am:


You are failing to allow for the possibility that it isn't the caffeine at all, but could be the delivery system itself, instead.

I have a different theory on this subject. I believe that at least some of the people getting abortive relief from soft drinks and/or the energy drinks, would get similar results from simple ice water.
I think that much of the relief is due to the coldness of the drink. This can cool off (reduce swelling?) the vagus nerve.

For over 10 years now, some people with epilepsy have been getting relief from their seizures with a VNS. (Vagus Nerve Stimulator)

Just as some cluster people can get relief with anti-seizure meds, affecting the Vagus nerve with cold treatments may be doing the same sort of thing.
Drinking cold soda? Chugging cold Red Bull? Lot's of cold water? Breathing cold air? What do all these things have in common? Could it be the Vagus nerve?

I have tried in the past to find people that suffer from both epilepsy and clusters and that may have had a VNS inserted, to see if they saw relief from their clusters also, but no luck finding anyone yet. I still lurk in some Epilepsy message boards.

I also believe that this is at least part of the reason that people using the waterX3 treatment get abortive relief sometimes. There is a more widely believed theory behind the water working, but I often find myself outside the box all by myself.  

People that either sweat a lot during their attacks or have gastrointestinal problems during cluster cycles might be more susceptible to getting relief by treating the vagus nerve, as this nerve has an effect on those events. It also produces acetylcholine which some theories connect up with clusters.
Deep breathing exercises such as diaphragmatic breathing, or Charlies breathing technique can have a positive effect on the vagus nerve, as well as clusters. There are many connections.

This is all just a theory but.......???

Bobw

Pinkfloyd wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 1:59am:


A theory may be just another name for an opinion...I prefer "an educated guess". I'm with Bob on this one...

While I can't stand cold on my head or neck during a hit...the colder the drink the better it works for me...

As for deep breathing...after many years I have found that slow, deep breaths, while on O2, (at way lower lpm than many advocate) works  for me...

Besides the coldness of the soft drink, perhaps the low level of caffeine, I believe the sugars contained have an action too...Low blood sugar is a sure "trigger" for me...in high cycle I eat candy, which I don't normally do. It developed almost as a gut feel that I needed to, without thinking too much about it.

Aint no box big enough to contain what we need to think about and explore with this CH crap...so Bob, I don't think you're outside of any box except those containing small minds.

Thank you

Best,

Jon

#1 - nowhere in that thread does Andy ref caffine.  Mearly says soda.

#2 - There's a tread near the bottom of the page where an article quotes Flash as calling LSD his miracle cure, "Flash was ridiculed by the cluster headache community for his "miracle cure"."  Doesn't look like he was hammered for his use of the word cure.  How the heck is Flash anyway, tell him I say hi. (or maybe in his case, high )

#3 - Caffine is usually combined with medicaions to speed the medication delivery throughout the body not because it has some effect on the condition.

#4 - I also go with Bob W on this one.

Quote:


  Actually thats not so crazy I havn't tried it but pickles have alot more than just vinegar in them.  Before Gator aid football players would do shots of pickle juice during a game.
  Phil

jon019 wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 5:16pm:

I don't know about taurine enhancing the effect of Verapamil per se.  It acts like a calcium channel blocker but it stabilizes calcium balance and strengthens the heart muscles.  I recall reading a medical journal that presented a protocol that used taurine as a substitute of Verapamil after Verapamil was tapered off.  Of course taurine is a naturally occurring substance, so it doesn’t and shouldn’t work as strongly/well as Verapamil for hypertension.  But, if taurine (or any other nutrients) could possibly contribute to lowering BP to the point of reducing the Verapamil dosage, I much rather choose more foods and less drugs.

I won’t waste the space and bore you with the possible adverse effects of Verapamil as they’re all in the PDR.  Verapamil slows down the heart rate by inhibiting movement of calcium ions across cell walls.  Myocardinal muscles are depressed.  So the toxic effect of Verapamil *could* block the heart; although Verapamil poisoning may be uncommon, it’s not a bad idea to keep in mind what it possibly does to us negatively when the heart function is unnaturally altered.  My BP is pretty low to begin with, so my neuro and GP aren't TOO happy about me and Verapamil (I've never fainted on it tho).   It’s mostly metabolized in the liver.

While we need it to prevent/lessen CH, the heart is slowed down then I slam it by over-breathing of O2 and often with triptans.  No apologies for this protocol as I NEED it, but I personally think my heart is really beat up!  It’s not totally pointless that caffeine and nicotine intake is cautioned while on Verapamil  .

Physicians can’t be almighty (we all know that), and they can’t be trained in everything that goes into our bodies and know the unique individual differences.  I doubt many doctors would freak out if we binge at an oyster bar once in a while unless we’re allergic to shell fish.  100 g of oysters contains excess of 1,000 mg of taurine .  And yes, taurine has anti-anxiety properties, by calming down the nerve cells---good to reduce the stress and anxiety of CH.  It’s getting more and more attention in the psychiatric/mental health circle.  

OK, I’ll stop.  I have emotional attachment to this amino acid for a reason (call me odd LOL).

Marc wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 10:15pm:

Thanks for the confirmation .  I think my poor spouse is holding up okay for having a worthless wife.  But I know he's pretty tired of this like all my previous episodes.....you know, guys don't bitch about stuff like this??

wildhaus wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 8:17am:


This (caffeine, energy drinks, and well for that matter, elephant dung) IMHO are just psychosomatic acceptance of a situation that has worked out well in the past and expected to in the future. If you live with this condition daily for a few years you will quickly realize that you are spending more on energy drinks than oxygen will cost you, and peeing a lot more too…

Rolo