Audre, I completely agree.

Had I lived most of my life in those conditions, I would be sure to be desperate, and I'm sure Hamas would feel like a very good choice. If I remember right, the Palestinian people voted Hamas into their parliament, instead of the previous party, Fatah. Voting Hamas was seen as voting for direction instead of stagnation. Fatah was seen as more of the same - more of hopeless existence without a better future.

If I may recommend you something to read, try Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or
It's a blog about the Iraq war, by a Baghdad resident.

- Best regards,
Rosa

Yes, the Palestinians voted Hamas in over Fatah.  Hamas promised diplomacy with Israel and Fatah was corrupt.  Yassir Arafat was given money from the US for aid for Palestine to build schools, etc. but he ended up keeping that for himself (millions, possibly billions of dollars).  Hamas actually did try diplomacy with Israel.

"The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."

Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.

Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food. "

Hamas did try to get another cease-fire going before the last one expired, before Israel started the air attacks. 

"Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms."

As I said, Hamas has been trying to get peace agreements with Israel, but Israel rejects it every time.  The UN is pretty pointless, the resolutions against Israel are either vetoed by the US (and only the US) or they are completely ignored. 

US vetoed resolutions:
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Ignored resolutions:
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Not to mention that Israel's use of cluster bombs, white phosphorus bombs and depleted uranium munition is also against international law, especially in highly dense populations with many civilians trapped.

The situation in the Gaza area is very desperate, and sad!
The situation in the bordering area within Israel is intolerable!
The Hamas takes refuge with in the “innocent” population, be it by force, or use the population sympathizing with the Hamas as a shield for the misdoing of the Hamas militants, and the military fractions with in Hamas. Using human (partly innocent) as a human shield is the lowest of the military tactics and even Guerrilla tactics.... it is cowardly, and on top of it in-human.... a crime against humanity.... against the people they are to protect and represent!
The Hamas militants use UN sponsored schools to launch rockets into Israel, the use religious buildings as a bunker and launches facility... they abuse every public facility for staging the war on Israel.....
Israel (Israeli government) has the obligation to provide its citizens with proper and peaceful lives.... which it is doing now.... and with full right!
The 6 month of “truth” had been abused by the Hamas, instead of improving the situation in the Gaza area, they have smuggled, manufactured and bought rockets, to be used against Israel..... All that money invested for distractive purpose, With one thing on the agenda, not the well being of the citizens of Gaza, the destruction of Israel.....
Audre, before posting claims driven out of propaganda, you should look into facts, which are to be found over the net as well as in history books.... The Hamas dose not recognize the state of Israel, and the right of Israel to exist.... with one goal, repeatedly chanted, the Zionists have to be KILD! all of them, and the state  of Israel destroyed.... is this a call for diplomacy? is this a way to find a partner for talks..... get your facts right!
Audry, Hamas radicals are not looking for a ceasefire, as you say, in order to get the situation in the Gaza area some what better for its citizens, the only reason is to get arms and regroup..... no humanitarian interest what so ever..... they didn’t have interest in the past, why now all of a sudden?
The fact is that the (recognized) representative of the Palestinians is Mahmud Abbess, and he is NOT recognized by the Hamas.... Hamas dose not recognize the Oslo accord..... Hamas the fundamentalists have one single target, desire, to annihilate the Jewish state of Israel.
And I an confident, this will not be the case!


Michael

PS, Audre, I wonder how would you call the US armed forces (I call them HEROES) that are stationed in Iraq... or Afghanistan, in harms way, fighting, hundreds of mails from home, against the sources of terror, source of evil, so you can sit at home in peace and tranquillity the same source that sponsors Hamas and spreads terror and hat rage around the world....

Thanks Michael!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said

Jimmers

Yes, the situation in and near Gaza is deplorable.  

Hamas, Palestinian ....  The fact is you're right - the Palestinians in Gaza actually elected Hamas with a majority over Fatah.

BBC 1/28/05:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or  "...In elections held in 10 districts of Gaza this week, Hamas won at least 75 seats out of 118 seats."

...and Hamas then went on to win the majority in the first Palestinian parliamentary elections the following year:

Washington Post 1/27/06:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

"In Wednesday's voting, Hamas claimed 76 of the 132 parliamentary seats, giving the party at war with Israel the right to form the next cabinet under the Palestinian Authority's president, Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Fatah.

Fatah, which has dominated the legislature since the previous elections a decade ago and the Palestinian cause for far longer, won 43 seats. A collection of nationalist, leftist and independent parties claimed the rest."

Audre, while you are correct about Israel's sanctions against Gaza, those sanctions exist(ed) for several reasons - the main one being that Hamas has been stealing the supplies and preventing their distribution to the civilian population.  Even the UN stopped its aid mid last year because of Hamas.  ...Of course there was an international boycott because Hamas seized Gaza by force in June 2007.  

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And the Palestinian Authority has refused to recognize Israel's right to exist.  So what diplomacy?  What improving terms?  In my mind, at this point, Hamas is responsible for Gaza's suffering, not Israel.

Michael, I appreciate your desire not to rehash the facts, but I think a couple are important.

In fact, the "Palestinians" to whom we refer are hardly a united or even ethnically "coherent" people (complicating the problem), and Gaza has been a political nightmare - like many of the great British legacies - that even Egypt didn't want.

The "Palestinians" have always been a stateless, citizenshipless people in the Middle East - they are a collection of migrant workers and come from Iraq, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.  

Let's face it - the local Arab peoples were occupied for centuries by the Turks and had no national movement until the arrival of the British.  "Palestine" may have a place on the history maps - but "Palestinians" were people who worked in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc.  Hell - Arafat was born in Egypt.  

So Gaza as it exists today, as has already been pointed out, is a product of the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Egypt and Israel. (Egypt occupied the Strip from 1949, except for four months of Israeli occupation during the 1956 Suez Crisis, until 1967).

In 1948, the "All-Palestine Government" was proclaimed in Gaza City by the Arab League. The government was only recognized by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - and not by Jordan or other countries, let alone any non-Arab country. It was basically under Egyptian control, "had negligible influence or funding," and was subsequently moved to Cairo. Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip or Egypt were issued "All-Palestine" passports until 1959, when Nasser annulled the All-Palestine government by decree.  Notably, Egypt never annexed the Gaza Strip, but instead treated it as a controlled territory and administered it through a military governor.  The refugees were never offered Egyptian citizenship.  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

...so just who ARE the "Palestinian" refugees?  

Under UNRWA's (United Nation's Relief And Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) operational definition, Palestine refugees are "persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." UNRWA's definition "also covers the descendants through the male line of persons who became refugees in 1948."    Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

However, the UN traditional definition of a refugee is someone who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it."  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

The UN definition of Palestinian Refugees has allowed the population to balloon - according to Al Jazeera the population of the "Gaza Region" was 60,000 - 80,000 in 1948.  Of course the war caused an influx - again, according to Al Jazeera - of approx 200,000 to the Gaza strip.  According to the CIA Factbook, the current population of the strip is now 1.5 million.

As far as I'm concerned, the UN is partially responsible for exacerbating - or at least perpetuating - tensions in the Middle East.  Why are numerous towns and cities throughout the Middle East still called "refugee camps?"  OK - conditions in many are horrible and it is a serious shame.  But they are towns and cities - not camps in any traditional sense of the word.  IMO it's because it's to the political advantage of the Palestinian leadership - whoever that's been.

...And by allowing terrorists to turn "refugee camps" into the center of the Palestinian war machine, the international community has assisted in building the terrorists' system of control!  And instead of working to relieve the refugees' misery, the UN has dedicated an ENTIRE agency - UNRWA - to perpetuating it.

For the rest of the world, the UN works tirelessly to improve their conditions - to relocate them, to help them rebuild their lives.  With Palestinians, the U.N. does exactly the opposite, granting refugee status to the great-grandchildren of people displaced in 1948, doing nothing to dismantle the "camps" - because the Palestinian Authority doesn't want them to.

Israel has refused to be victimized.  The Palestinians have chosen to be victims - and it has NEVER worked for them.  And their people suffer because of it, and the Palestinians then terrorize Israel because of it.

Sadly, since its victory in the Palestinian Parliament, Hamas has failed to unify around a coherent program.  This has led to partisan tensions within the Palestinian Authority that verge on civil war.  And Palestinian civilians continue to suffer.  As do Israelis.

I don't know of any solutions either - but it seems to me the best resolution would be an Israeli "victory" in the sense of removing Hamas from power, and an international community that pressures the UN into changing its policies in the Middle East, potentially paving the road empowerment of Palestinian civilians as opposed to the propagation of terrorists and a real political process in what could be a Palestinian country.

Laurie

Since we've declared war on terror, and Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization, maybe we should go help Israel.

Kinda nice that they can take care of business on their own.  The object here is to eliminate Hamas!

Hamas, Hezbollah, Alqueda, and many more need to be controlled or killed, ,,,OR THEY WILL KILL YOU.
I think we shold help Israel. Then flame IRAN and SYRIA. Slap a few of em around and watch the rest of'em settle right down.
the bb
It's a good thing I dont run the show.

Quote:


How about this. It rains for 40 days and 40 nights, God... as everyone in that area see's him, threatens plague and pestulance until everyone sees the errors of their ways and decides to shake hands and live side by side in harmony with each other.


     

I just would like to add some Video material with Background on the IDF's operation "Cast Lead" in Gaza. Israel left Gaza in 2005 hoping for peace and a fresh start, but Hamas has destroyed that optimism through its continued support for terror against innocent civilians.
I know the source is the Israeli IDF Spokesperson's Unit, and one could say it is one party of the problem with self interest, it is truth, but I do think they are mostly honest, and pragmatic..... with less of chanting hat-rage slogans’, just simple ground facts....

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or just simply look at this link, Israeli IDF Spokesperson's Unit:

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Just some Info, you should be the judges, I am biased.....

Michael

I add,

Israel will halt its bombardment of Gaza for three hours every day to allow residents of the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory to obtain much-needed supplies, a military spokesman said Wednesday.
The announcement follows Israel's decision to open a "humanitarian corridor" into Gaza in response to mounting concerns about shortages of food, water and medicine in the territory.

I wonder what the Hamas will do..... help in providing so much needed humanitarian assistance, or will it just take the good will of the IDF to regroup and rearm, dig some more booby-traps along the roads and place rocket launchers with in the densely populated area with in Gaza city...... or just simply change the camouflage into normal dress.... and mingle into the population.... cowardly as they are......

Quote:


My predictions:

There will be a peace deal with Syria in the next year or so.
Obamer is gonna have to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities (or get Israel to do it for him).

Quote:

Not in my mind Frank. I forgot...if Pakistan continues to turn their back on muslim extremists...flame them too.
I have no tolerance for people that want to kill me and my family.
the bb
Go Israel!!!! Watch Hezbollah jump in with some rockets of their own.
Supplied by Iran ,funneled through Syria.