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Time For Critical Action (Read 16878 times)
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Time For Critical Action
Feb 11th, 2009 at 3:57pm
 
Good people of Clusterville,

The so-called stimulation legislation a.k.a. the porkulus bill is about to make social medicine the law of the land and this very important decision was never debated in the House or Senate.  What's happening here goes well beyond political preference...  If you do not want social medicine, you need to take action now!

The president and the liberal majority in the House and Senate want it that way because they think you are too stupid to make that kind of decision.   They also know it would never pass an open debate in congress.  That’s why they've quietly slipped this landmark piece of legislation into a porkulus spending bill we will never be able to afford. They just hoped you wouldn’t notice until it was too late…  

They had to do it this way...  and they've been lying about it all day when cornered on TV...  because this section of the porkulus bill consumes 141 or 18% of the 778 pages of this bill's version prior to conference.  This is a major piece of legislation all on it's own!

Your opportunity to comment has been cleverly sidetracked by the majority leadership in the House and Senate.  Their conferees are meeting now on this bill and they’ve already signaled they intend to have a single bill ready for a vote in the House tomorrow and the Senate on Friday. The only way they can do this is to rubber stamp both the House and Senate versions and that means social medicine will soon become law.

You need to know that not one Republican Senator or Congressman has been allowed in the conference on this bill!  That is nothing less than…  TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

As American citizens you have every right to comment on a law that will affect you and your children for generations to come and to have the opportunity to tell your elected officials how you feel about it.  

Unless you are comfortable having big government between you and your doctors telling them what treatments they are authorized to perform and what medication they may or may not prescribe, you need to take action now!  

You need to call, fax, and or email the White House, your Senators, and Congressmen.  Be polite, clear, and concise, but be firm in your message.  Their phones are manned 7/24 and there are provisions for leaving voice mail.

We only need 3 votes to stop this bill in the Senate.  Senators Spector, Collins, and Snow are likely candidates as they were the only republicans that crossed the isle to vote for this terrible bill.  If you find time call their offices...  their phone lines have been busy all day.

The White House:
Comments: 202-456-1111
FAX: 202-456-2461
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The contact data for your Senators and Congressmen can be found at:
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Call the following, as email from residents out of their state will not be read:

Representative Nancy Pelosi (D - 08)  
DC Phone: 202-225-4965  
DC Fax: 202-225-4188        
E-Mail: sf.nancy@mail.house.gov

Senator Harry Reid (D- NV)        
DC Phone: 202-224-3542        
DC Fax: 202-224-7327        
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Senator Arlen Specter (R- PA)        
DC Phone: 202-224-4254        
DC Fax: 202-228-1229

Senator Olympia Snowe (R- ME)        
DC Phone: 202-224-5344        
DC Fax: 202-224-1946

Senator Susan Collins (R- ME)        
DC Phone: 202-224-2523        
DC Fax: 202-224-2693

I realize some of you may not have had the time to digest what’s been happening with the so-called stimulation legislation so I’ve pasted below the first part of the offending section on social medicine cleverly disguised under the title of “Health Information Technology.”  There are too many more examples of offensive waste in this legislation including billions to ACORN so I encourage you to read as much as you need then draw your own conclusions on the worth of this bill.  There are several websites carrying the full text and the House-Senate conferee version should be available later today.

TITLE XIII—HEALTH INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
Subtitle A—Promotion of Health Information Technology

The Porkulus Bill establishes within the Department of Health and Human Services an Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology

“PURPOSE.  The National Coordinator shall perform the duties under subsection (c) in a manner consistent with the development of a nationwide health information technology infrastructure that allows for the electronic use and exchange of information and that:
 (1) ensures that each patient’s health information is secure and protected, in accordance with applicable law;
 (2) improves health care quality, reduces medical errors, and advances the delivery of patient-centered medical care;
 (3) reduces health care costs resulting from inefficiency, medical errors, inappropriate care, duplicative care, and incomplete information;
 
(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;”


Friends, if you do nothing… Social medicine will become the law of the land on Friday.  You’re going to have it even if you didn’t want it.  

I think electronic health records are a good idea but doing this requires careful consideration of a lot of facts and a lot of open debate.  As the legislation reads now, one political party has decided you’re going to have a politician or a political appointee with no medical training telling your doctor how to treat you and that’s if a committee of bureaucrats decide you're worth treating.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #1 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:22pm
 
I'm afraid we're no longer headed for a cliff without any brakes, Pete. We have already gone over the edge. I believe our phone calls, e-mails, faxes have no effect anymore.

This is the Amerika that is left to our children, comrade.
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #2 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:31pm
 
Batch wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 3:57pm:
You need to know that not one Republican Senator or Congressman has been allowed in the conference on this bill!  That is nothing less than…  TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

[/size]


Hmmm it looks like it is becoming a one party system which is another way of saying...........

So much for democracy!

-P.
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #3 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:41pm
 
Stand up, all victims of oppression
For the tyrants fear your might
Don't cling so hard to your possessions
For you have nothing, if you have no rights
Let racist ignorance be ended
For respect makes the empires fall
Freedom is merely privilege extended
Unless enjoyed by one and all

Chorus:
So come brothers and sisters
For the struggle carries on
The internationale
Unites the world in song
So comrades come rally
For this is the time and place
The international ideal
Unites the human race

Let no one build walls to divide us
Walls of hatred nor walls of stone
Come greet the dawn and stand beside us
We'll live together or we'll die alone
In our world poisoned by exploitation
Those who have taken, now they must give
And end the vanity of nations
We've but one earth on which to live

And so begins the final drama
In the streets and in the fields
We stand unbowed before their armour
We defy their guns and shields
When we fight, provoked by their aggression
Let us be inspired by like and love
For though they offer us concessions
Change will not come from above    Cool

Charlie
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #4 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:42pm
 
Hey Brew.........with this change, I'm losing hope.

Can someone explain how this Bill is going to stimulate to economy?  I don't understand.
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #5 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:44pm
 
More hysterical delusions.  The bill is not about socialized medicine; the section you highlighted in red is about medical records - ie, doctors should be able to get a patients records (used to make decisions) in a faster, more reliable way than asking someone to fax or courier a thick file.  It should be instant, not take days, and it should not involve photocopy fees of a dollar a page, as many doctors now charge. The bill does not say that the electronic infrastructure will make the decisions - it says that it will provide the information to doctors so they can make decisions.

Quote:
Clarity on health care provisions in the stimulus bill

I've talked to two readers so far this morning who've heard that the stimulus bill contains a comprehensive nationalized health care plan, and they accuse The Star of not having written anything about it.

C'mon, folks -- that's just plain wrong, and any pundit trying to scare people with a boogeyman of rationed health care right around the corner is acting in bad faith.

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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:13pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #6 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:48pm
 
midwestbeth wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:42pm:
Hey Brew.........with this change, I'm losing hope.

Can someone explain how this Bill is going to stimulate to economy?  I don't understand.  

I hope you're not asking me, Beth. One Congresscritter said there was about $170B worth of actual job creation and stimulus in this bill, yet the cost to us is $800B. Add to that the $700B from late last year, the $1T Mr. Tax Fraud announced yesterday to further nationalize the banking system.

I can't explain it - I guess all I can do is watch as they take away private health care, seize my 401K and my pension, and give it away to someone else. They have bigger guns than I do.
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #7 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:55pm
 
About 40% of the stimulus package is tax cuts - which Republicans have traditionally supported as economic stimulus, or as good in and of itself. That will mean extra money in people's paychecks, which will lead to spending across the country, creating jobs.  

The other spending packages will mean construction of highways, power lines, etc, which will mean companies will hire people to run bulldozers, etc etc.  

Will it work? Is it too much, or not enough?  I don't know. Reagan cut taxes and increased spending (mostly military) - that created jobs and took us out of a recession (and increased national debt).  Not sure if this package which also cuts taxes and increases spending will make up for the popping of the largest asset and debt bubble in history .... tune in later to find out.
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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:06pm by monty »  

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #8 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:18pm
 
This thing is likely to reach the 5 trillion range, maybe more according to what I've heard lately. Some economists are just afraid that we're not ready to get our arms around this thing so it's baby steps........big ones....whew.

In any case, something has to be done so our grandchildren will at least be around to start paying back on the mess we are leaving them. It's horrible but otherwise not clear that they will even be here. Awful but no other rational choice has been put forth. The market has shown us what it can do to us when people without conscience are left completely on their own: 1888.

Charlie
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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:20pm by Charlie »  

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #9 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:21pm
 
Batch wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 3:57pm:
[size=18]  
(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;”




Everyone that thought it was just fine that Bush was reading your emails and listening to your international phone calls since you had nothing to hide, should have no problem sharing your medical records.

At least it'll be a Dentist checking your medical records to find out he shouldn't put Epi into that shot since you have clusters, or your headache specialist seeing that with your heart problem, he shouldn't be prescribing Imitrex, instead of Dick Cheney reading your letter to Peter in London.

Roll Eyes
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #10 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:25pm
 
Monty, your numbers are so wrong it's pointless to explain (to you anyway).  Me thinks the kool-aid is spiked.

Giving money to people who don't pay taxes IS NOT A TAX CUT.  It is a TAX INCREASE ON THOSE WHO PAY TAXES, PERIOD.

But there aren't as many of us taxpayers as there used to be, and certainly not enough of us to fend off this attack on our constitution.

The constitution is null and void, apparently.  It is time for a revolution.
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #11 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:28pm
 
I like what Bill Maher said last night to Jay Leno. He said taking over the mess left by the Bush crowd is like being a maid stuck at a hotel that hosted a Led Zepplin concert.

Charlie
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #12 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:36pm
 
midwestbeth wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:42pm:
Hey Brew.........with this change, I'm losing hope.


Without having the wherewithall to fully grasp debate of each allocated portion, if there is an inclusion concerning the unemployed, that seems a befitting acknowledgment of maintaining hope, however else it may be deemed.  Consequences being what they are for many, I wouldn't group it into a totally unhelpful regard concerning thoughts on the whole.  




Brew wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 4:48pm:
They have bigger guns than I do.


Reviewing a previous time of large outlays, on the precipice previous to the Marshall Plan, where we laid out HUGE sums of money to other countries for future prosperity, Truman made a speech to Congress March 12, 1947 including this statement: "I believe that it must be the policy of the United States to support free people who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures."

Be it a derived context here, pretty much lays bare a stance on certain options crossing thought.
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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:46pm by Kevin_M »  
 
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #13 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:38pm
 
Quote:
Monty, your numbers are so wrong it's pointless to explain (to you anyway).  Me thinks the kool-aid is spiked.

Fubar, or anybody else
Can you explain it to the rest of us. Seriously, most of what is being said is pure crap from both sides.
Facts man, just the facts.
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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:44pm by karma »  
 
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #14 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:58pm
 
Karma,

I'm not capable of explaining it in a way that's going to make anybody change their mind.  That would take years of reprogramming, and frankly we don't have years.  Those who buy in to this kind of social engineering through redistribution of wealth, whether it's because they are true socialists or just simple foks who blindly follow the hand that feeds them, don't want to admit they have been duped.  Those who are doing the 'duping' know exactly what they are doing.

-Shawn
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #15 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:59pm
 
Quote:
Monty, your numbers are so wrong it's pointless to explain (to you anyway).  Me thinks the kool-aid is spiked.


Actually, some numbers would be nice - here is an article from MarketWatch - do you have anything more current or detailed?

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It seems your still really upset about the earned income credit, where some people who don't pay taxes get a refund. Here is what the Market Watch article says:

Quote:
Expanded earned income tax credit

This one sounds great, but it's nothing to shout about when you do the math. Both the House and Senate temporarily increase the earned income tax credit to 45% of the family's first $12,570 of earned income for families with three or more children. They also make this credit available to more people by, generally, raising threshold levels.
"The actual dollars in the pocket here will not be huge," Luscombe said. "You get 5% of an additional couple of thousand dollars, so it would be a few hundred bucks if it applies to you." Still, for a lower-income family, that's not bad news.



Compared to the thousands of dollars that taxpaying families get, this credit or grant is small potatoes.   


Quote:
Well, if you're an average working American with no kids in college and not looking to buy a new home or car, the answer is about $1,000 over the next two years. Double that if you're married and you and your spouse work; shrink it to $300 if you are retired or disabled. And get out your calculator if you are unemployed.

It's not a lot of money to cheer about, but then again, you set aside $500 for every working American, and the figure for tax relief is going to start around $140 billion right there; the sheer size of the project dictates that getting a few thousand bucks per family would be too much to handle. And anyway, the stimulus bill's main focus is shoring up the economy through job creation and aid to states. See related story on how stimulus will affect your pocketbook in various ways.


So lets talk numbers, Fubar, if you are able. In addition to these personal cuts, there are breaks for millions of people who will be buying a car, house, or education in the next few years. There are tax breaks for companies that carry an inventory, there is protection for middle class families from the AMT.   These tax cuts are a significant part of the stimulus plan -about 40% is the number I heard, although that could have changed 

And your characterization of me as someone who drank the kool aid is ridiculous. Stop jumping up and down about the fundamental injustice of giving a few dollars to the poor or unemployed, who aren't paying taxes. (Oh, yeah, extending unemployment insurance is another component of the plan. Maybe you oppose that because it encourages lazyness?)




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The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #16 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 6:01pm
 
Good people,

The smooth-tongued devils on the left say and do anything to achieve their socialist agenda... and social medicine a.k.a. universal health care is right up there with abortion...  They have been lying about this part of the bill all day.  Don't let them get away with it.

You need to understand that Rom Emanuel is working a strategy for comrade president obama that consists of shock and awe with swarm tactics and misdirection.

The obamanoids are attacking every pillar of conservatism en mass in the hopes of shocking the right side of the isle and right minded folks into a defensive posture of confused inaction with no clear priorities on what to defend next.  If you do nothing...  They win. 

I learned a long time ago a well executed offensive is the best defense.  NOW is the time to attack!

The only near-term hope at this point is that the porkulus package will be viewed by enough concerned people as a gross overreach and that they'll take the time to let their Senators and Congressmen how they feel.  We only need three more Senators to vote against this terrible bill.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #17 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 6:09pm
 
Reagan was so damn right.
Government doesn't solve problems, they subsidize them.  All they need is your cash.

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #18 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 6:20pm
 
Monty,

The bill is for $790B.  40% of that would be over $300B.  Please tell me where you see over $300B in tax cuts. 

A tax cut is when your taxes for something (anything) actually go down.  When you get a 'refund' for something you didn't pay, you cannot call that a tax cut.  If someone who didn't pay taxes gets a check, that is welfare, not a tax cut.  The only way to pay for that is to take more taxes from those who pay taxes.  Why is that so hard to understand?  That is, by definition, a tax increase.

But this is not acceptable language, is it?  We have to call it a tax cut or I'm just a mean-hearted conservative whining about having to help the poor people.

Our founding fathers wrote the constitution specifically to prevent this kind of bullshit.

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #19 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 6:43pm
 
Everybody relax. You know that it's so bad that it will fail and if it does do a little good, you can join New Hampshire and refuse any money coming your way from the commies in Washington.

Charlie
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #20 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 6:43pm
 
from the market watch article
tax credits:
.....(The House version lets firms use up to 90% of their losses while the Senate version allows for 100% of losses.) ......

Both the House and Senate bills include a new refundable tax credit of up to $500 for working individuals and $1,000 for working families for 2009 and 2010.

Another change proposed in both bills for the next two years makes the Hope credit worth up to $2,500 and good for four years of college costs (instead of the current limit of two).
    
The article has numbers and seems pretty unbiased

This is the kind of stuff I want to see. Nobody should be interested in changing peoples minds but should instead want people to make up there own minds based on facts not Stars Wars type mumbo jumbo.

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #21 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 7:38pm
 
Charlie wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 6:43pm:
Everybody relax. You know that it's so bad that it will fail and if it does do a little good, you can join New Hampshire and refuse any money coming your way from the commies in Washington.

Charlie


Well... Now I love this idea for a quiet revolution. Just refuse to participate in the trickle of cash, Don't cross the bridges, don't travel on the roads, only home-school your children, do not accept any social security. Refuse any and every penny that may flow as a result of this delusional socialist government.

That'll teach 'em.

with warm regards,
Tony
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #22 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 7:52pm
 
Quote:
Monty,

The bill is for $790B.  40% of that would be over $300B.  Please tell me where you see over $300B in tax cuts.  


The Market Watch article said "It's not a lot of money to cheer about, but then again, you set aside $500 for every working American, and the figure for tax relief is going to start around $140 billion right there;"

Since the proposal is for a 2 year program ($1000 per American, or double the figure), that alone would be $280 billion. Add in the various business taxes and tax breaks for education, home buyers and car purchases, and that is well over $300 Billion.

Quote:
A tax cut is when your taxes for something (anything) actually go down.  When you get a 'refund' for something you didn't pay, you cannot call that a tax cut.  If someone who didn't pay taxes gets a check, that is welfare, not a tax cut.  The only way to pay for that is to take more taxes from those who pay taxes.  Why is that so hard to understand?  That is, by definition, a tax increase.

But this is not acceptable language, is it?  We have to call it a tax cut or I'm just a mean-hearted conservative whining about having to help the poor people.

Our founding fathers wrote the constitution specifically to prevent this kind of bullshit.



No, they didn't.  You are distorting the record on the founding fathers and capitalism to your particular ideas, aspirations and delusions.

Quote:
Jefferson favored a primarily agrarian economy which would employ progressive taxation to prevent growing inequality,..
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Quote:
Jefferson said in a 1785 letter to James Madison, "Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."


He was also open to the idea of government seizing property and dividing it among those who had none.

Quote:
Wherever there is in any country, uncultivated land and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right ... legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind.

The Constitutional Thought of Thomas Jefferson
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This is very different from so called "Libertarianism" that enshrines the right of private property as ultimate right and the foundation of all goodness. The founding fathers were generally in favor of personal property, initiative, commerce, and industry ... but they understood that things could become unbalanced, and they recognized that government redistribution was sometimes a good idea.  

Even Adam Smith, who wrote the book on capitalism (Wealth of Nations) that "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more in proportion."  and "The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities."


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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2009 at 7:54pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
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BlueMeanie
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #23 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 8:14pm
 
Roll Eyes

Kindler gentler.
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Racer1_NC
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"Well, let's go see."


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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #24 - Feb 11th, 2009 at 8:21pm
 
Anyone views change because of this and the other political threads here?

Bueller?

Didn't think so.

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“We see what we believe, not the other way around." — Varga
Racer1_NC  
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