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Time For Critical Action (Read 16801 times)

Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Time For Critical Action Reply #75 - Jun 18^th, 2009 at 9:13pm I should probably give up and trust health care reform to the insurance companies, drug companies, the AMA, doctors that have big peices of diagnostic and testing businesses, and the GOP. How can we lose? Charlie
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Batch

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #76 - Jun 18^th, 2009 at 11:19pm

Charlie,

That's a bit extreme... Even I wouldn't do that. What we really need to do is vote for people with common sense that understand living within a budget and that they work for us instead of trying to scare the crap out of us with Obama-Kennedy-Pelosi-Care that will ration what crap is left... and deduct the expense from our social security checks so illegal aliens can have head of the line privileges at the ER when we come in with an infarction.

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monty

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #77 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 4:48am

Batch wrote on Jun 18^th, 2009 at 11:19pm:

... What we really need to do is vote for people with common sense that understand living within a budget and that they work for us instead of trying to scare the crap out of us with Obama-Kennedy-Pelosi-Care that will ration what crap is left

You want it both ways, Batch - you can't control costs and live within a budget without rationing. Rationing means to divide and allocate (look up 'ratio' in a dictionary or math book). Budgeting IS a form of rationing - every month, when I do my family budget, I ration my limited income to various things that I value.

An oligopoly of private insurance companies is one way for a society to ration a service like medical care. It results in a system that allocates services so that 50 million Americans can't afford policies (or are denied it outright as they have serious conditions), and these people must depend on emergency rooms that provide limited and expensive coverage... and then the hospital (not the insurance company) writes it off as a loss, passing the costs to other consumers as best they can.

If I outsourced my home budget to a private company that worked like the medical insurance companies, they would take 40% to 50% of every dollar I gave them to overhead and profit ... That would only cut my standard of living in half!! And that is what is happening with health care today - it is grossly inefficient compared to other countries and compared to Medicare and the VA system, where overhead is typically 2 to 5 percent. We know that with big ticket items (like the interest rate on a mortgage), a small increase in the usury rate makes a big difference in the payments. Imagine paying 40% when you go to finance your home! That is the situation we are in - we pay twice what anyone else in the world does for medical care, and have less to show for it.

But maybe you are right - the risk that we might provide some level of coverage to 10 million illegals trumps the goal of covering 50 million uninsured citizens and legal residents ... common sense tells us that there is absolutely no way to design a system that would only extend benefits to legal residents. Surely if there were a "common sense" compromise on the issue of immigration status and health care, the Republicans would be pushing for that instead of scaring people to block any and all reform! Oh, never mind, that has been proposed, and the obstructionists don't want to seriously consider it, because even a program that doesn't cover illegals would require compromise and be contrary to the financial interests of the insurance companies.

Quote:

25 May 2009

Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), chair of the Senate Finance Committee, on Thursday said that he supports "a version" of government-run health insurance but that such a program would not cover undocumented immigrants, the Washington Times reports.

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The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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monty

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #78 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 5:26am

JohnHerbster wrote on Jun 14^th, 2009 at 3:00pm:

Why I fear the Universal Health Care Computer

You have heard of universal health care, but have you thought about the universal health care computer system?
...
This proposed government health-care computer system would arrange appointments, keep information on the patients, compute which tests and treatment would give the most benefit at lowest cost with a triage process, and then schedule tests and treatments.

The “Terminator” movies are about an artificially intelligent computer system which has self-preservation as its ultimate goal, like the computer named “HAL” in the old movie “2001: A Space Odyssey”. In these movies, the computers try to stamp out human resistance by intelligent computer control.

Great - science fiction misinformation from a first time poster (or a sock-puppet). I know that my first post on this site wasn't a crack-inspired rant about a conspiracy theory.

There is no such proposal. No one is talking about the government taking over doctor's offices and micromanaging them. Even in Canada, Japan, and European countries, doctors are independent business entities that manage their own schedules. The issue in the US is much more limited - it involves reforming insurance company policies and possibly offering an option with a non-profit government plan.

There has been some talk about standardizing medical record keeping, which would make it easier for doctors and patients to access information. This would not involve a new centralized computer system that would turn on its creators and jettison them into another galaxy (where no one can hear you scream!) ... it would be a standardized language (maybe an xml dialect) so that each person with a condition (like cluster headaches) would be described in a consistent way. At present, coding medical records varies greatly from place to place, and it would be possible to reduce errors and improve efficiency if we had one consistent way to represent medical information.

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Charlie

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #79 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 9:51am

Quote:

trying to scare the crap out of us with Obama-Kennedy-Pelosi-Care that will ration what crap is left

That's always been the big lie Batch. It's what the Republicans have been using for 6 decades to block serious heath care reform. It's pure BS and always has been. What we want is for the insurance companies to finally play ball....zero chance of that without a government option...it's just ain't possible. Only in America, it seems, that it's legal to kill poor people, which includes my elderly neighbors that have the option of death by lack of medical treatment or death from lack of food. After all, they are the slacker consumers not contributing to Wall Street health providers. "Consumers and providers" are what they call patients and doctors there. The health care system is built on making as much loot as possible by insuring only people that have no need for insurance.

I'm sure glad that I'll have my medical records sealed.....What a con; nothing in this country has been a secret for that past 60 years. Even so, somehow, I think I'd rather have my prostate exam open to all those that might get off on seeing it rather than my being in a box 6 feet under trying to preserve the false tenant that our records are in a similar vault to which only we have the combination.

Charlie

« Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2009 at 9:54am by Charlie »

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #80 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 7:23pm

Quote:

Furthermore, the CBO estimates that 23 million Americans will lose the insurance they currently have, contrary to Obama's key promise that no one will lose insurance. "[T]he number of people who had coverage through an employer would decline by about 15 million (or roughly 10 percent), and coverage from other sources would fall by about 8 million," the report says.
The CBO estimate is so ugly for Democrats, The Hill reports, that "lawmakers are talking about changing the chamber's normal accounting procedures," substituting estimates from the White House Office of Management and Budget for those of the CBO. So much for "transparency."

« Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2009 at 7:25pm by Bob P »

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #81 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 8:25pm

Yeah, even Obama's doctor is criticizing Obama's plan. I am not saying it doesn't need scrutiny and some changes ... but he seems to be the only one that is moving things forward. Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Quote:

Obama's Doctor Knocks ObamaCare

Dr. David Scheiner took care of Obama for 22 years. But they don't see eye-to-eye on how to fix the health care system.

...

He's still an enthusiastic Obama supporter, but he worries about whether the health care legislation currently making its way through Congress will actually do any good, particularly for doctors like himself who practice general medicine. "I'm not sure he really understands what we face in primary care," Scheiner says.

...

What should the president be focused on? Scheiner thinks that a good health reform would be "Medicare for all," a single-payer system where the government would cover everyone and pay for it by cutting out waste in the system. "A neurosurgeon gets paid $20,000 for cutting into the neck of my patient. Have him get paid $1 million a year instead of $2 million or $3 million. He won't starve," Scheiner says.

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Charlie

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #82 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 8:31pm

I finally understand what you posted Bob. I was a little slow. It looks like a chunk of employers would opt out of their current insurance coverage for employees and they would have to select another plan.......or better yet be forced onto the government option. What a pity but at least the price would be right.

It's also time to consider just how many people would take advantage of a government option rather than continue having such a big chunk out of personal budgets be spent for iffy services at whim of big insurance firms. These are the firms that use treatment guidelines that are not used for good care but to force patients to accept sometimes dangerous shorter periods of treatment and avoid paying for expensive drugs and long term care. At least....counter to the lie about government rationing....it would not be a factor as it is with of corporate providers. It wouldn't be all bad.

The goal is to slow down Obama by any means to get the debate as near as possible to off year elections with the idea that it will be easier to use the old scare tactics durning campaigns.

I'll take my chances with Obama rather than rely on the goodness of bloviating radio screechers and all those sweet health care insurers with the mountains of cash supplied by enough lobbyists to populate a medium size city.

Charlie

« Last Edit: Jun 20^th, 2009 at 8:03pm by Charlie »

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #83 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 7:12am

Quote:

What a pity but at least the price would be right.

? What did the poster from Europe say, after 35% taxes, everything is free! Just wjat is the price (without using your own White House budget people to cook the numbers?

Quote:

It's also time to consider just how many people would take advantage of a government option rather than continue having such a big chunk out of personal budgets be spent for iffy services at whim of big insurance firms.

Remember the Government $600 toilet seat? This ought to be a lot cheaper than private insurance!

Quote:

The goal is to slow down Obama by any means to get the debate as near as possible to off year elections with the idea that it will be easier to use the old scare tactics durning campaigns.

Nope. Just trying to open the eyes of the Obama sheep.

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monty

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #84 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 2:42pm

Bob P wrote on Jun 20^th, 2009 at 7:12am:

? What did the poster from Europe say, after 35% taxes, everything is free! Just wjat is the price (without using your own White House budget people to cook the numbers?

Nothing is free, but about 8% of GDP is spent on health care in Europe, Canada and Japan, versus 15-16% in the US. The fact that people in Sweden pay 35% in taxes is irrelevant - most of that goes to other programs. They pay less for health care ... We pay twice as much, but outcomes are not nearly twice as good. In many ways, we get less than other countries do, including 50 million uninsured and people that are dropped when they get sick.

Private medical insurance spends 40-60% of every dollar they get in premiums for overhead - versus 3-5% for medicare and the VA.

Bob P wrote on Jun 20^th, 2009 at 7:12am:

Remember the Government $600 toilet seat? This ought to be a lot cheaper than private insurance!

Fraud is always an issue - if a doctor submits false claims, they are stealing. Doesn't matter if the doctor submits the false claims to a private insurance company or a public insurance company ... a few will try regardless.

The $600 toilet seats and hammers were a way to hide covert funding for unapproved military adventures (Iran-Contra, Star Wars, and massively expensive project to raise a sunken Soviet sub). Should we eliminate the military because these expenditures were clumsily cloaked in the budget? Or maybe we should publish exactly where every military cent gets spent?

« Last Edit: Jun 20^th, 2009 at 2:49pm by monty »

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #85 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 2:58pm

Quote:

We pay twice as much, but outcomes are not nearly twice as good.

Not twice as good, but better. It's the law of diminishing returns.

Say I own Company M. I spend x dollars in an attempt to achieve a 99% service level to my customers. It will generally cost me x times 10 to get from 99% to 100%, which is why I set my service goal at 99% - my customers won't pay ten times as much to get 100% service. 99% is the value point.

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #86 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 4:57pm

Brew wrote on Jun 20^th, 2009 at 2:58pm:

Not twice as good, but better. It's the law of diminishing returns.

Diminishing marginal returns can be very real, but I am not sure they explain differences in health outcomes when comparing the US to other countries.

Half of our insurance dollars go to Blue Cross, Humana, and other insurance companies - for things like advertising, executive salaries, big buildings, and stadium sky boxes. Not sure that there is any real return on that, much less diminishing returns.

Likewise, Canada pays much less than we do for pharmaceuticals, as they engage in bulk purchasing and competitive bidding for most drugs. Having a fragmented insurance system doesn't allow that, and 'conservatives' in the US passed a law preventing the government from using their purchasing power to negotiate the best price. I guess they want to make sure that government is as inefficient as they say it is!

By many measures, the US is not only spending twice as much, they are getting much less for it. This enigmatic study never got to a good explanation, but they found clear evidence that spending more didn't result in improved health:

Quote:

"The U.S. population in late middle age is less healthy than the equivalent British population for diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, myocardial infarction, stroke, lung disease and cancer," conclude the researchers in a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

....

And here's the final insult: We spend much more on medical care -- $5,274 per person in the United States, compared with $2,164 in the United Kingdom. You'd think that extra $3,000 would get us some advantage over our transatlantic cousins.

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Charlie

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #87 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 8:14pm

Quote:

Remember the Government $600 toilet seat? This ought to be a lot cheaper than private insurance!

Yes I do. It's also true that those $17 aspirins and $150 hospital gowns exist because of corporations and insurers using hospitals as revenue streams and slashing funds for equipment, nurses salaries and simple maintenance, to keep that stream flowing. Hospitals try to make it up any way they can. It's ugly and it's a direct result of our Steven King-like health care system.

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #88 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 6:54pm

If captialism is what the last 8 years have been about, I am all for giving communism a try.

Healthcare: Either corporations whotry to make as much money as possible off of sick and dying people or the burocracy and ineptitude of the government is the choice. I call that a horse apiece.

America - the land with the best health care you'll never be able to afford unless your an aristocrat.

Or

America - the land with free shoddy healthcare for everyone.

Some choice. That being said 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Oh yeah, I see someone brought up Canada. Thanks to our democratic governor WI residents can legally buy drugs from canada. I do it all the time and get the same exact drug by name and lot number as I do from America. Cost is often 1/4th what I pay in America.

So when that lying scumbag Bush stood up as said he was not going to allow people to buy from canada "becasue he cared for americans and didn;t want them to have fake or inferior products" he was lying as usual.

The American health care system is hosed becasue for he last 2 decades lobbists for the industry have been getting the Bushes of the world to let them price fix their way to record profits - all off of sick, tax paying citizens.

Go buy some canada drugs and prove it to yourself.

« Last Edit: Jun 21^st, 2009 at 6:59pm by superhawk2300 »

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #89 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 8:36pm

No disrespect Batch but...
I wouldbe very interested in knowing where you got the info for the initial posting. I haven't found any link that verifies what you posted (not saying it's bogus, but without a link or point of reference, it's hard for me to swallow.

The whole political banter about Obama and all the bad things he is doing or going to do reminds me of the 'satanic panic' of the 80's where everyone was raising awareness of these 'satanic cults' taking over the world. As we later learned, it was all just overhype.

I tend to stay out of political and religious threads as they always get so heated - I can't count how many people in this post alone are 'ex-members.

just my Smiley

which isn't worth much here in Canada.

Peace,
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Charlie

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #90 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 12:28am

Quote:

I wouldbe very interested in knowing where you got the info for the initial posting. I haven't found any link that verifies what you posted (not saying it's bogus, but without a link or point of reference, it's hard for me to swallow.

Batch is not alone in quoting things like this Carl. It sounds much like something Matt Drudge or other bloggers use to bring up scare tactics. As has been said about the internet; the worst of it is that people only read what they agree with. At least in newspapers, you occasionally come in contact with dissenting opinion on the same page and sometimes even read it.

Quote:

Oh yeah, I see someone brought up Canada. Thanks to our democratic governor WI residents can legally buy drugs from canada. I do it all the time and get the same exact drug by name and lot number as I do from America. Cost is often 1/4th what I pay in America.

Wisconsin? I thought that was Pawlenty in Minnesota that didn't get hyper over Canadian drug traffic. Wisconsin does this too? Cool.

Charlie

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #91 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 5:23pm

Carl,

Regarding the source of info in my initial post... It's Public Law Titled "The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009." Passed by congress without reading and signed by the President without the promised 5 day review period. You can download the pdf file containing the ARRA as I did from the Government Printing Office (GPO) <gpo.gov>. Then I did my own analysis... Sorry Charlie.. no Matt Drudge here... He didn't take the time to read the porkulus bill either.

I download markup drafts of most of the legislation coming out of the politburo... If you want to scare the crap out of yourself, do the same... I've a feeling you'll come to the same conclusions that I have... Congress is populated with social progressives on the left and idiots on both sides of the isles. The only thing they're good at is running up the National Debt as they sure as hell can't pass a balanced budget!

If you really want to get your bowels in a spastic uproar, consider the following from the WSJ.

Quoting Kimberly Strassel in the Wall Street Journal "Democrats and the Health Tax Taboo":

"Mr. Baucus officially floated his plans for a tax this week, only with a surprising twist: His levy will not apply to union plans, at least for the duration of existing contracts. In other words, Mr. Baucus intends to tax the health-care benefits only of those who didn't spend a fortune electing Democrats to office. Sen. Ted Kennedy, who is circulating his own health-care reform, has also included provisions that will exempt unions from certain provisions.

The union carve-out is designed to allay the fears of many Democrats who remain outright hostile to a tax on health-care benefits, whether out of principle, political fear or union solidarity. Much will depend on the union reaction, which might remain ugly."

This would be outrageous. ~~Republicans~~ We all need to scream about this. The health benefits provided to GM workers by my tax dollars (through "loans" that will never be repaid) would not be taxed, but the benefits provided to me by my employer would be?

Now that's as screwed up as Hogan's goat!

While we're on the topic of national health care, can anyone give me an example of a US Government run industry that's turned a profit? Better yet, can anyone point to one of the Marxist trained community organizer's plans executed by the politburo or his administration that hasn't made big unions or slip & fall lawyers the beneficiary at our expense?

Take care... And BOHICA...

V/R, Batch

« Last Edit: Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 5:25pm by Batch »

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #92 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 6:12pm

Quote:

Better yet, can anyone point to one of the Marxist trained community organizer's plans executed by the politburo or his administration that hasn't made big unions or slip & fall lawyers the beneficiary at our expense?

Take care... And BOHICA...

V/R, Batch

Not a bad post until........This is straight from the lunatic fringe. It's okay to be conservative.....but......... this isn't conservative.

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #93 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 9:11pm

Charlie,

Thanks for the qualified compliment... You could have pointed to the several State Teachers, Fire, and Police unions who lost up to 90% of their retirement funds during the administration controlled kangaroo bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler when they trashed 233 years of contract law by placing bond holders in these two automakers at the end of the line... but gave the lion's share to the UAW... after taking a 51% ownership...

"The biggest losers here are GM's bondholders. According the Treasury-GM debt-for-equity swap announced Monday, GM has $27.2 billion in unsecured bonds owned by the public. These are owned by mutual funds, pension funds, hedge funds and retail investors who bought them directly through their brokers. Under Monday's offer, they would exchange their $27.2 billion in bonds for 10% of the stock of the restructured GM. This could amount to less than five cents on the dollar.

The Treasury, which is owed $16.2 billion, would receive 50% of the stock and $8.1 billion in debt -- as much as 87 cents on the dollar. The union's retiree health-care benefit trust would receive half of the $20 billion it is owed in stock, giving it 40% ownership of GM, plus another $10 billion in cash over time. That's worth about 76 cents on the dollar, according to some estimates.

In a genuine Chapter 11 bankruptcy, these three groups of creditors would all be similarly situated -- because all three are, for the most part, unsecured creditors of GM. And yet according to the formula presented Monday, those with the largest claim -- the bondholders -- get the smallest piece of the restructured company by a huge margin." WSJ

Could such an egregious act be consider equitable, or did UAW members make off like bandits all because the UAW paid tens of millions more to the chosen one's election campaign than the other unions?

You decide...

Meanwhile... If you think the Government Motors CEO, the chosen one and the idiots in the politburo have your best interests at heart when they start cranking out "green" vehicles... and that GM will operate at a profit... Think again.

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The hidden truth is neither he nor the politburo really care about you and your well being... and they have no intention of paying back the taxpayers who will pay for our Government's take-over of GM... They only care about power and saying in office to spread their agenda...

If you'd bother to check National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's motor vehicle safety stats, you'll see that compact and subcompact cars have a significantly higher death rate/million miles driven at 160 to 270. That's far more than the death rates full-size autos and vans. The collapsible golf cart - coffin on wheels shown above could produce a death rate over 300/million miles driven if folks are foolish enough to drive them like a regular car...

But then look at the benefits to the government when the death rate from these "green" vehicles skyrockets. Reduced social security and medicare obligations and increased revenue from death tax... what a deal. I'll keep my full size Ford.

Take care... and BOHICA

V/R, Batch

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #94 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 11:08pm

The temptation to label liberals as communists is great to many and of course anyone in power that the far right doesn't like, is always a pinko or worse. Most of this comes from the Dennis Miller edge on the far right that eat "freedom fries."

Charlie

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Batch CH.com Alumnus Offline Control The Beast With O2 & D3 You Must Posts: 3708 Bremerton, WA Gender:	Re: Time For Critical Action Reply #95 - Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 11:33pm Charlie, You're amazing. All I'm suggesting is some common sense. You've got a historical perspective too many lack. Although slanted a bit more to the left than mine, it's always well worth the time. Hang in there and thanks. V/R, Batch
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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #96 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 9:02am

Batch wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2009 at 9:11pm:

but gave the lion's share to the UAW... after taking a 51% ownership...

GM's bondholders. ...10% of the stock of the restructured GM.

The Treasury, ....would receive 50% of the stock

The union's retiree health-care benefit trust ... 40% ownership of GM,

Hard to follow all these percentages as worded, expressing so much union ownership. Unless things have changed, the ownership structure reported upon bankruptcy:

Quote:

The plan is for the federal government to take a 60 percent ownership stake in the new GM. The Canadian government would take 12.5 percent, with the United Auto Workers getting a 17.5 percent share and unsecured bondholders receiving 10 percent.

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The union wasn't even the largest creditor.

« Last Edit: Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 9:44am by Kevin_M »

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Batch

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #97 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 12:16pm

Kevin,

My wording may have been a bit obtuse... but it appears you took the time to look up the facts... GOOD ON YOU!!!

The operative points in my post are government took controlling interest in GM and the UAW received a grossly inequitable share of the stock yielding far more value than to the bond holders... like the Teacher's, Fireman's, and Police trtirement funds.

Now... Have you come to any conclusions why the administration lavished the distribution of GM's remaining value so heavily in UAW's favor?

Do you think it's fair that the other smaller unions got screwed while the UAW made out like bandits? Is that the American way????

Does it concern you that the administration is trashing the Constitution and that it has abrogated over 230 years of contract law with government controlled bankruptcy of CM and Chrysler???

Take care,

V/R, Batch

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #98 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 6:51pm

Quote:

the facts... GOOD ON YOU

Understandable correct facts is a start.

Quote:

trashing the Constitution

Article I, section 8:

"uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies."

[may be passed by Congress]

What these uniform laws have become since the more stabilizing Bankruptcy Act of 1898, amended frequently (30's), and the standing decisions of 1978, had a long history of geographical and party division. Those seven words of the Constitution initiated the ability to trek through a long and winding road. In time, things may change again, the words don't seem to have been left behind in the trash.

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Re: Time For Critical Action
Reply #99 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 10:42pm

Kevin,

A well worded response.

However, as the administration's prearranged bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler were governed by fiat (there's a pun for you) sans congressional action per Article I, section 8, existing contract laws were abrogated... so it appears trashing of the Constitution did take place...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

« Last Edit: Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 10:42pm by Batch »

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

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