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Does this sound ominous to you? (Read 22873 times)
stevegeebe
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #100 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 9:42am  
HGTV syndrome.  Wants trump needs. Consume, consume, consume. 

Now...? Oh crap!...Would somebody please wipe me.

Here you go..use my tax cut money.  It's not much..so use it sparingly.

Steve G
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Jonny
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #101 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:36pm  
seasonalboomer wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:47am:
Bob P wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:32am:
Quote:
Many of these people could have sold their homes, homes they made on time payments on for 20 years, but can't sell because they are upside down on their home that lost 35% of its value...WHILE THEY WERE AT WORK.


I find it hard to believe that someone who paid their mortgage for 20 years can be upside down.


Sure they can, because they refinanced 3 times, the first time for a new kitchen, the second time to build out the bonus room and then, as they got better, and better at it, a new motorhome. So, their $80,000 home somehow has $160,000 worth of obligations against it. This thing is a mess.


And those people deserve to lose that house if they cant pay for it!
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #102 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:47pm  
Quote:
seasonalboomer wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:47am:
Bob P wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:32am:
Quote:
Many of these people could have sold their homes, homes they made on time payments on for 20 years, but can't sell because they are upside down on their home that lost 35% of its value...WHILE THEY WERE AT WORK.


I find it hard to believe that someone who paid their mortgage for 20 years can be upside down.


Sure they can, because they refinanced 3 times, the first time for a new kitchen, the second time to build out the bonus room and then, as they got better, and better at it, a new motorhome. So, their $80,000 home somehow has $160,000 worth of obligations against it. This thing is a mess.


And those people deserve to lose that house if they can pay for it!



LOL..It's just so frustrating... when tax payers have to reward stupidity... but We do pay taxes for a reason... I like to think of the bailout like this.

I pay taxes... Part of the money goes to pay for a fire department.
My neighbors house catches on fire... the fire department shows up... puts out the fire, saving the home, the people in it and prevents the fire from possibly spreading to my home.

If my neighbor was a dumb enough fuck to leave a candle burning unattended which caused the fire... should the fire department not save them and the house?

It's the same thing.

with warm regards,
Tony
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #103 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:53pm  
Cheesy

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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #104 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm  
Artonio wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 1:47pm:
LOL..It's just so frustrating... when tax payers have to reward stupidity... but We do pay taxes for a reason... I like to think of the bailout like this.

I pay taxes... Part of the money goes to pay for a fire department.
My neighbors house catches on fire... the fire department shows up... puts out the fire, saving the home, the people in it and prevents the fire from possibly spreading to my home.

If my neighbor was a dumb enough fuck to leave a candle burning unattended which caused the fire... should the fire department not save them and the house?

It's the same thing.

with warm regards,
Tony


Good post, Tony.

Sandy, I did the same. I had a 15 year loan, and after it was half paid, I refinanced, and replaced the HVAC system, the plumbing system with copper and replaced the bath fixtures. Borrowed $11K to do it. Every dime went into the house.

Found out the house appraised at twice what I paid for it. Went from an 8% to a 5% rate and got a 10 year loan. I've made every payment on time. The house will be paid off in less than 3 years.

So far so good. But I am thankful I have a job. Thankful that nothing has happened that would cause me to not be able to make the payments.

When I was looking at houses to buy, I remember the bank telling me how much house I could afford. I thought they were nuts, don't they figure in things like car payments, utility bills and the other stuff life throws at you? I found a house *I* thought I could afford, which was much less than what the bank said, and have lived through lay-offs and unexpected bills and being unemployed (my choice) for a year and a half.

Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. People jumping at the chance to get jumbo mortgages, because the bank said they could afford it. Same people getting more house than they need, and can't afford to furnish it, or even afford the window treatments. All the while, their ARMs were fluctuating wildly. I'd hate to be caught in one now.

Jonny, you are in it for the long haul. Someone will buy those foreclosed houses on your block. But it may be a long time before that happens. Hopefully, your house won't lose too much of it's value in the meantime. And I hope your business keeps doing as well as it has been. It's the unexpected things that we don't see coming that can cause problems.

Artonio wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 6:19pm:
Yep it sounds very unfair that all these good people who have followed the rules and did everything legally do not get a bailout bonus. Paying ones mortgage on time every month as per agreement per contract does not go unnoticed... it reflects on your credit score.

Building equity in your home takes time and diligence... why would you risk the value of your house plummeting because five homes in your neighborhood go into foreclosure and are uninhabited ?
30 years worth of blood sweat and tears reduced down to  nearly nothing.

Sadly there is no litmus test that weeds out the speculators and idiots from those who have just fallen on hard times. It would be an interesting move though if the Gov. bought the foreclosed homes and gave them to the disabled american vets just because it's the right thing to do.

That would probably be considered too much meddling by the Gov. though.

just a thought.

with warm regards,
Tony


You know, Tony, it would be so great if the Gov. did give these homes to disabled vets, and modified them for access. After the service they have done for our country, it would be the least they could do.

And your credit score now is one of the few things you have going for you, if it's in good shape. Wonder how the bailout would affect that after possible foreclosure?
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #105 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:15pm  
A better idea would be..........since like it or not several of the banks in effect already are nationalized, to make them play ball directly with the people in deep. That way the 90% of people that pay on time wouldn't be directly stuck......at least they could make themselves believe it. Everybody in the country has been denying reality for a long time. Who really didn't see this coming?

When we dig out of this mess it would be nice if we don't go back to the economic illusion that greedy twerps have settled for for so long.

Charlie
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #106 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:30pm  
purpleydog wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm:
Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it.


That didn't happen - banks were not required to loan money to bad risks. The big thing is that most banks and brokers found that they could make more money from loan fees, and then sell the loan to someone else, who bundled it and sold it to some other sucker who would eventually take the hit. So they got a carrot for every loan they made, and there was no stick if they made a stupid loan to someone who obviously could never pay. This broke the market, and it occurred from deregulation.

There are some banks out there that kept the old policy of holding on to all the loans they made. Guess what? Those banks are not in trouble, because they were able to use discretion when making loans, and they most importantly, they wanted to keep using discretion in making loans.

This is the problem, and it was not caused by the community reinvestment act of 1977:

Quote:
Packer was told of a “bank teller with an annual salary of $23,000 who had received a $216,000 mortgage, with no money down and no income verification —- not even a phone call from the lender.”

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That teller was a fool, but the lender was an even bigger scoundrel. The teller will lose that home (no way to make those payments on that salary, even with the proposed bill) ... but the individuals that profited from the stupid loans have already spent the money, or deposited it somewhere safe, and it will hard to show that they even broke the law ... because the government deregulated. Were the brokers stupid? Were they unethical?  Doesn't matter if it isn't illegal anymore.
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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:33pm by monty »  
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Jonny
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #107 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:37pm  
purpleydog wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm:
Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it. People jumping at the chance to get jumbo mortgages, because the bank said they could afford it. Same people getting more house than they need, and can't afford to furnish it, or even afford the window treatments. All the while, their ARMs were fluctuating wildly. I'd hate to be caught in one now.


BINGO.....Now I have to pay them to make their payments ontime?
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #108 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:53pm  
monty wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 5:30pm:
purpleydog wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:51pm:
Banks were being required to loan money to people who couldn't afford it.

This broke the market, and it occurred from deregulation.



Deregulation?

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ANNSIE
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #109 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 6:38pm  

I am hearing both sides and just want to venture my personal view, from someone who came from a different government system.

Many Asian immigrants who moved to European countries like the US, Canada and Australia have done very very well financially. Its because they came with a different mentality. Where they come from there is no one to bail you out, no outside help, you take full responsibility and if things get tough you simply knuckle down and wear it out. If some disaster happens and you loose out totally due to no fault of your own, you cry for a day then you work twice as hard to rebuild.

My grandmother lived through the WWII then the Vietnam war. Her house was bombed and completely destroyed 5 times. She was a widow with 6 children. She rebuilt 5 times without any help from any government. By the time she passed away, she had built 2 houses and a thriving importing/exporting business.

With that same mentality, my family came to New Zealand in 1984. For the first 3 years, the 5 of us lived in a one bedroom granny flat and we didnt have a car. I slept on the floor and did my home work on the floor. We all had at least 2 jobs even the children. The first home we could afford was a 2 bedroom tiny little flat with no yard. Mum and dad had a room, my sister and I shared a room and my brother slept in the lounge, he didnt get a room. We could have borrowed more and bought a bigger house because between 5 of us we had 10 different jobs, but mum and dad did not want to over extend ourselves. They made sure that the mortage payment was not more than 30% of the total income. In the late 1980's when the interest rate jumped to 16% and thousands of houses were foreclosed all around us, we were fine.

Now if I loose everything I have, it doesnt scare me because I have learnt how to live through tough times and how to rebuild from zero.

The problem with the Western countries like US or Australia is the mentality of the people. The people here believe that a certain standard of living is their rights, not a priviledge. If they cant afford that lifestyle than someone else will have to pay for it. Either people will borrow to the hilt to pay for that lifestyle or they will expect the government to bail them out.

With that mentality, no amount of money from anywhere will be able to sustain it for long. Robbing Paul to pay Peter will only keep you afloat for a short while. The inevitable crash will come and hard.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #110 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 6:46pm  
Quote:
.............. the mentality of the people. The people here believe that a certain standard of living is their rights, not a priviledge. If they cant afford that lifestyle than someone else will have to pay for it. Either people will borrow to the hilt to pay for that lifestyle or they will expect the government to bail them out.

With that mentality, no amount of money from anywhere will be able to sustain it for long. Robbing Paul to pay Peter will only keep you afloat for a short while. The inevitable crash will come and hard.

Just my 2 cents.



Great post! The last part in particular is worth repeating. Over and over and over..........
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #111 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:00pm  
Smiley

Hearing the perseverance of hard work and sacrifice has always riveted my attention.  Grandparents and great uncles and aunts coming through times very meager, three and more sleeping head to toe in a single bed, searching the train tracks for coal pieces spilled over the edge of rail cars, walking miles for over a year to the yard at Chrysler to be picked for work.  So many more.  Dependence on family the strongest bond.


Quote:
Now if I loose everything I have, it doesnt scare me because I have learnt how to live through tough times and how to rebuild from zero.


It has been hard to hold high the sign "land of opportunity" lately, understandably as it has in the past also at times.  

Amazing comprehending survival in countries ravished by war.
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #112 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:07pm  
Kevin_M wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:00pm:
........... Dependence on family the strongest bond.



Yet another thing worth remembering and repeating because it seems to have been forgotten in this country.
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #113 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:14pm  
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." — Margaret Thatcher
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #114 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:19pm  
Quote:
 Deregulation?



Yes, deregulation. Specifically, the repeal of the Glass-Stegal Act of 1933, and its replacement with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999.

Under Glass-Stegal, banks were banks and brokers were brokers. Banks were held to higher standards in terms of what risk they could take, and they were prohibited from doing quite a bit.  But to 'free up the creativity of Wall Street" the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act erased most of those lines. The result was the transformation of most mortgages into "mortgage debt securities" along with the creation of trillions of dollars of collateralized debt obligations and other derivatives that no one understood, which were a big part of how we got to the current mess.

Even the Libertarians predicted it:

Quote:
Economists Robert Ekelund and Mark Thornton have criticized the {Gramm-Leach-Blilly} Act as contributing to the 2007 subprime mortgage financial crisis, arguing that while "in a world regulated by a gold standard, 100% reserve banking, and no FDIC deposit insurance" the Financial Services Modernization Act would have made "perfect sense" as a legitimate act of deregulation, under the present fiat monetary system it "amounts to corporate welfare for financial institutions and a moral hazard that will make taxpayers pay dearly".

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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:34pm by monty »  
The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #115 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 7:46pm  
Quote:
That didn't happen - banks were not required to loan money to bad risks.


Love ya Monty, but Chris was spot on correct...  Banks were required to make the bad loans...  and that is a matter of public record.

Then Attourney General Janet - Shoot'em up at Ruby Ridge and Burn'em up at Waco Texas - Reno, bragged about filing charges against bankers who would not honor the Clintonista plan to make ARM loans to folks on welfare or folks earning minimum wage for nothing down so they could buy a home on which they could never afford to make the payments, said on Jan 15, 1997, “Some banks have simply not done business in minority neighborhoods, while others charge higher rates or add extra charges to their loans in minority areas.  We have used a two-prong approach to address this problem.  First we have worked with the banking industry that wants to do right to reform their practices, and, secondly, for those who thumbed their noses, we have sued them and we are going to do whatever is necessary.”

The liberals in congress and the Clintonistas caused the Sub Prime debacle to happen by scaring the shit of bankers to make them sell these toxic loans...  and that my friend, is a matter of public record.

Meanwhile, Chris Dodd, Barny Frank, and then comrade Senator Obama, were all having a Great Adventure in Social Engineering by voting to continue this terrible practice, all the while taking the largest of the kick-back "political contributions" from none other than then CEO Frankin Raines of Fannie Mae who cooked the books in order to make his quota by less than 5 dollars buying and selling these "Toxic" and "guaranteed to fail" loans to other financial institutions so he could get his bonus.

Raines earned more than $52 million in performance and other bonuses from 1998 through 2003. This was in addition to some $38 million in salaries and other compensation.  This my friend is also a matter of public record only the liberal media was so far in the tank they couldn't let you know...  this is also a matter of public record.

I don't know about you, but I find it very troubling that Dodd and Frank who had a major hand in causing the Sub Prime debacle, and who were in a position of oversight in congress to prevent it and did nothing, are now backing the most lame-ass Marxist plan to redistribute wealth to the same folks that couldn't pay for their loans in the first place so they can default on them again... in less than a year...  and it will only cost taxpayers $150Billion not $79 Billion... but that's not all...

Guess what folks...  A Marxist trained President, hell bent on economic justice and redistribution of wealth, along with the help of a socialist led kangaroo Congress have also given us Universal Health Care...   Aaannnd...  we didn't even know it was in the economic porkulus package...   aaannnd Congress wasn't even provided time read the bill before they passed it for the President to sign into law.

The economic porkulus Act will also increase our annual income tax by up to $4,000 a year starting in 2010...    for the next 30 years...   Aaannnd...  Thaaat's just to pay the interest on the $787 Billion in Treasury Notes.  

Buuut... don't worry... cause comrade President Obama will announce Monday that he plans to cut the nation’s projected annual deficit in half by the end of his first term...  I'd watch this reeeeeal close...  The liberal leadership already has plans to nationalize our 301k and IRAs after they nationalize the banks and oil companies to pay for welfare and housing for the 20 million illegal aliens... aaafter they grant them amnesty.

Again... this is all a matter of public record...

Finally, as I've been reading The American Recovery And Reinvestment Act Of 2009 a.k.a. the so-called stimulation / porkulus package since the 17th and doing key phrase searches, I found that this Act also makes 264 amendments to existing US CODE[/b].

Some of these amendments are benign and others not.  Moreover, none of these amendments were afforded meaningful time for debated, nor was meaningful time provided to read this act in its final version before a vote was called for passage.

IMHO, all who were responsible for this egregious conduct of congressional leadership in gundecking this act through the legislative process, and all that voted in its favor, are guilty of gross dereliction of duty to the office held, the constitution, and to the people of the united states.

Again... these actions are all a matter of public record...
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It's going to get worse...  a lot worse... Aaannnd...  there's nothing we can do about it unless we vote these idiots out of office...

Take care, read, think... then act.

V/R, Batch
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #116 - Feb 22nd, 2009 at 9:56pm  
Ok, Batch,

leaving aside issues of Clinton and Obama derangement syndrome you raised in your post, how do you account for the fact that most of the bad loans were issued under that other President between Clinton and Obama, who was in charge of interpreting and enforcing the law, and could have suspended provisions and/or called for a new law but didn't??

Or the fact that only 25% of bad loans came from lending institutions that were governed by the CRA law?  

Or the fact that banks that stayed with the old system of only writing reasonable loans and keeping them for the life of the note are doing quite well?

Or the fact that middle class whites account for such a large percent of loans that are now going bad? The CRA is a scapegoat, an attempt to draw attention away from the real problems.  

If only the ghettos and barrios were seeing foreclosures, most Americans wouldn't be all that alarmed.  But the problem is every where. The people that went out on a limb to buy multiple houses as investments were not the poor minorities that the CRA tried (unsuccessfully) to protect. The half-built suburbs of $300,000 homes that were abandoned before they were finished weren't being financed by people who got 'special treatment' under the CRA.

A teacher once said something about the family farmer ... you don't get up in the middle of the night and go out into the cold to save a crop that belongs to the commune or the corporation, but you do if its your crop. The fact that most mortgage lenders knew that they wouldn't have to live with the loans meant there was no reason to read and review them - as long as the deal was done, they got their fees and commission ... no need to try to make deals that would protect either the borrower or the person who would buy the bundled mortgage security.

Quote:
... approximately 50% of the subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies that were not regulated by the CRA, and another 25% to 30% came from only partially CRA regulated bank subsidiaries and affiliates... institutions fully regulated by CRA made "perhaps one in four" sub-prime loans ... the worst and most widespread abuses occurred in the institutions with the least federal oversight.

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Quote:
Rating agency Moody's said last month that it was revising upwards the expected losses on 90% of Alt-A mortgage securities. It describes the collapse as 'unprecedented for its asset class'. These are not the subprime households who would probably have been better off without a mortgage in the first place. Alt-A borrowers tend to be middle-income earners.

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« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2009 at 9:58pm by monty »  
The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #117 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 12:36am  
Just out of curiosity, Batch: Has there ever been anything good at all ever done by a politician not part of your impression of Republican or conservative politics?

I'd like to know.

Charlie
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #118 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 7:20am  
Ooo, ooo - I know, I know: Kennedy cut taxes once.
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #119 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 10:49am  
Ok, back to the dumb questions....
Quote:
Economists Robert Ekelund and Mark Thornton have criticized the {Gramm-Leach-Blilly} Act as contributing to the 2007 subprime mortgage financial crisis, arguing that while "in a world regulated by a gold standard, 100% reserve banking, and no FDIC deposit insurance" the Financial Services Modernization Act would have made "perfect sense" as a legitimate act of deregulation, under the present fiat monetary system it "amounts to corporate welfare for financial institutions and a moral hazard that will make taxpayers pay dearly".

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Is the US economy and currency standard based on the gold standard or not?  I keep getting conflicting reports on this, and from what I've read, it seems that it is not.

And if it's not, what does that mean in the long term for our children and grandchildren?
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #120 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:05am  
The US economy hasn't been tied to the gold standard since the early 70's.

What it means for our heirs, I don't know. I suppose my parents and grandparents asked the same question back then.
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #121 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:16am  
We've technically been off the gold standard since the early 1930s.

It's always instructive to note how everything good for we the people comes from at our expense and when it crumbles because it never was good for us, we are to blame.

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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #122 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:31am  
Ok thanks for the info....

So basically our money is toilet paper.  Sometimes I think returning to the barter system sans paper would be better - back to basics so to speak
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #123 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:51am  
catlind wrote on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 11:31am:
Ok thanks for the info....

So basically our money is toilet paper.  Sometimes I think returning to the barter system sans paper would be better - back to basics so to speak

No, paper money is worth whatever the recipient deems it's worth. You can still buy a loaf of bread for 2 pieces of "toilet paper" because the bread dealer accepts it.

Watch for this, however, in the weeks and months ahead: growing inflation. Maybe not to pre WWII Germany levels, but it's coming.
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Re: Does this sound ominous to you?
Reply #124 - Feb 23rd, 2009 at 12:27pm  
Believe me, that's a very real fear of mine.  Perhaps there will be no run on the banks, but I personally don't have a mattress stuffed with money.  The only thing I have is a house with a mortgage that is within my means (30 yr fixed)....too bad I'm having to rent it out because the military saw fit to send us elsewhere.

I shouldn't complain, Clark is one of the very elite few who actually has job security (for now at least)
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A true friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart.

If yer gonna be stupid, ya gotta be tough

Who is John Galt?
catlind catlind68 or kadiya68 660506913 kadiya68 kadiya68  
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