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icedragon

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #25 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:09am

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:25am:

So, Thomas, you're calling a medical doctor a quack? Sounds like a violation of the code of conduct to me.

And no, she's not a sufferer - she's a supporter.

Get your ducks in a row before you pull out the big guns.

No, Brew, Never called her a quack, I called her opinion/statement/idea quackery. It is different, like if I were to say "what you just said was idiotic," does not mean I called you an idiot. No?

Now, you say she is a doctor and a supporter? Is she practicing medicine here? If she is, she should be showing some credentials...I would really like to know where she is practicing medicine. Or, by "doctor," do you mean she has a PHD in a field other than medicine?

Either way, I have to question her statement. She gives the impression that people should deal with their anxieties on their own with these techniques, using no outside help. Then, in the next breath states that "People who need medication do so because they seek help too late." This does not sound right to me.
Secondly, she states "2- Awareness 2: be aware that the symptoms of anxiety ( such as heart palpitation, hyperventilation ) do not kill you, wont make you faint and wont cause you to totally loose control, they can be stopped or reduced by refocusing and by relaxation techniques." Hyperventilation can cause a person to faint, and if she is a doctor, could be giving false information here... And anxiety can cause you to lose control, be it if you are aware or not. Who here in the midst of a cycle does not suffer from some kind of anxiety, can't sleep and needs some kind of help with getting the sleep they need before they loose control. I see other holes in what she describes, but I am sure you can see them for yourself if you look.

If she is a doctor, I have to question where? Even now, she is back pedaling on her original blanket statement. I still see flaws in what she is "prescribing/clarifying" for Kev to do. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for each other here? I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

So, sorry to ruffle your feathers Brew, but I don't think it is me that needs to get their ducks in a row...

Thomas

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #26 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:14am

Quote:

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:25am:

So, Thomas, you're calling a medical doctor a quack? Sounds like a violation of the code of conduct to me.

And no, she's not a sufferer - she's a supporter.

Get your ducks in a row before you pull out the big guns.

No, Brew, Never called her a quack, I called her opinion/statement/idea quackery. It is different, like if I were to say "what you just said was idiotic," does not mean I called you an idiot. No?

Now, you say she is a doctor and a supporter? Is she practicing medicine here? If she is, she should be showing some credentials...I would really like to know where she is practicing medicine. Or, by "doctor," do you mean she has a PHD in a field other than medicine?

Either way, I have to question her statement. She gives the impression that people should deal with their anxieties on their own with these techniques, using no outside help. Then, in the next breath states that "People who need medication do so because they seek help too late." This does not sound right to me.
Secondly, she states "2- Awareness 2: be aware that the symptoms of anxiety ( such as heart palpitation, hyperventilation ) do not kill you, wont make you faint and wont cause you to totally loose control, they can be stopped or reduced by refocusing and by relaxation techniques." Hyperventilation can cause a person to faint, and if she is a doctor, could be giving false information here... And anxiety can cause you to lose control, be it if you are aware or not. Who here in the midst of a cycle does not suffer from some kind of anxiety, can't sleep and needs some kind of help with getting the sleep they need before they loose control. I see other holes in what she describes, but I am sure you can see them for yourself if you look.

If she is a doctor, I have to question where? Even now, she is back pedaling on her original blanket statement. I still see flaws in what she is "prescribing/clarifying" for Kev to do. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for each other here? I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

So, sorry to ruffle your feathers Brew, but I don't think it is me that needs to get their ducks in a row...

Thomas

We've already traveled down this road before. Roll Eyes

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Brew

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #27 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:24am

Quote:

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:25am:

So, Thomas, you're calling a medical doctor a quack? Sounds like a violation of the code of conduct to me.

And no, she's not a sufferer - she's a supporter.

Get your ducks in a row before you pull out the big guns.

No, Brew, Never called her a quack, I called her opinion/statement/idea quackery. It is different, like if I were to say "what you just said was idiotic," does not mean I called you an idiot. No?

Now, you say she is a doctor and a supporter? Is she practicing medicine here? If she is, she should be showing some credentials...I would really like to know where she is practicing medicine. Or, by "doctor," do you mean she has a PHD in a field other than medicine?

Either way, I have to question her statement. She gives the impression that people should deal with their anxieties on their own with these techniques, using no outside help. Then, in the next breath states that "People who need medication do so because they seek help too late." This does not sound right to me.
Secondly, she states "2- Awareness 2: be aware that the symptoms of anxiety ( such as heart palpitation, hyperventilation ) do not kill you, wont make you faint and wont cause you to totally loose control, they can be stopped or reduced by refocusing and by relaxation techniques." Hyperventilation can cause a person to faint, and if she is a doctor, could be giving false information here... And anxiety can cause you to lose control, be it if you are aware or not. Who here in the midst of a cycle does not suffer from some kind of anxiety, can't sleep and needs some kind of help with getting the sleep they need before they loose control. I see other holes in what she describes, but I am sure you can see them for yourself if you look.

If she is a doctor, I have to question where? Even now, she is back pedaling on her original blanket statement. I still see flaws in what she is "prescribing/clarifying" for Kev to do. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for each other here? I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

So, sorry to ruffle your feathers Brew, but I don't think it is me that needs to get their ducks in a row...

Thomas

Not going down this road with you. You already know all there is to know about it, so why bother?

I will ask you the same question I posed on the previous page: Ever heard of varying degrees of a disorder?

Isn't it why we have a Kip scale in the first place? You talk about anxiety as though it were an all or nothing proposition.

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icedragon

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #28 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:52am

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:24am:

Quote:

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:25am:

So, Thomas, you're calling a medical doctor a quack? Sounds like a violation of the code of conduct to me.

And no, she's not a sufferer - she's a supporter.

Get your ducks in a row before you pull out the big guns.

No, Brew, Never called her a quack, I called her opinion/statement/idea quackery. It is different, like if I were to say "what you just said was idiotic," does not mean I called you an idiot. No?

Now, you say she is a doctor and a supporter? Is she practicing medicine here? If she is, she should be showing some credentials...I would really like to know where she is practicing medicine. Or, by "doctor," do you mean she has a PHD in a field other than medicine?

Either way, I have to question her statement. She gives the impression that people should deal with their anxieties on their own with these techniques, using no outside help. Then, in the next breath states that "People who need medication do so because they seek help too late." This does not sound right to me.
Secondly, she states "2- Awareness 2: be aware that the symptoms of anxiety ( such as heart palpitation, hyperventilation ) do not kill you, wont make you faint and wont cause you to totally loose control, they can be stopped or reduced by refocusing and by relaxation techniques." Hyperventilation can cause a person to faint, and if she is a doctor, could be giving false information here... And anxiety can cause you to lose control, be it if you are aware or not. Who here in the midst of a cycle does not suffer from some kind of anxiety, can't sleep and needs some kind of help with getting the sleep they need before they loose control. I see other holes in what she describes, but I am sure you can see them for yourself if you look.

If she is a doctor, I have to question where? Even now, she is back pedaling on her original blanket statement. I still see flaws in what she is "prescribing/clarifying" for Kev to do. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for each other here? I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

So, sorry to ruffle your feathers Brew, but I don't think it is me that needs to get their ducks in a row...

Thomas

Not going down this road with you. You already know all there is to know about it, so why bother?

I will ask you the same question I posed on the previous page: Ever heard of varying degrees of a disorder?

Isn't it why we have a Kip scale in the first place? You talk about anxiety as though it were an all or nothing proposition.

No, actually you are going down this road or you would not respond with questions.

Yes, I have heard of varying degrees. But, then that is a redundant question being you know I know all there is to know about it, as you stated, Right? Wow, say that ten times fast! No, I am not describing it as an all or nothing... If you read what I am saying you will see that. But you are done right? Take it easy now.

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Brew

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #29 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:55am

Quote:

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 11:24am:

Quote:

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:25am:

So, Thomas, you're calling a medical doctor a quack? Sounds like a violation of the code of conduct to me.

And no, she's not a sufferer - she's a supporter.

Get your ducks in a row before you pull out the big guns.

No, Brew, Never called her a quack, I called her opinion/statement/idea quackery. It is different, like if I were to say "what you just said was idiotic," does not mean I called you an idiot. No?

Now, you say she is a doctor and a supporter? Is she practicing medicine here? If she is, she should be showing some credentials...I would really like to know where she is practicing medicine. Or, by "doctor," do you mean she has a PHD in a field other than medicine?

Either way, I have to question her statement. She gives the impression that people should deal with their anxieties on their own with these techniques, using no outside help. Then, in the next breath states that "People who need medication do so because they seek help too late." This does not sound right to me.
Secondly, she states "2- Awareness 2: be aware that the symptoms of anxiety ( such as heart palpitation, hyperventilation ) do not kill you, wont make you faint and wont cause you to totally loose control, they can be stopped or reduced by refocusing and by relaxation techniques." Hyperventilation can cause a person to faint, and if she is a doctor, could be giving false information here... And anxiety can cause you to lose control, be it if you are aware or not. Who here in the midst of a cycle does not suffer from some kind of anxiety, can't sleep and needs some kind of help with getting the sleep they need before they loose control. I see other holes in what she describes, but I am sure you can see them for yourself if you look.

If she is a doctor, I have to question where? Even now, she is back pedaling on her original blanket statement. I still see flaws in what she is "prescribing/clarifying" for Kev to do. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for each other here? I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

So, sorry to ruffle your feathers Brew, but I don't think it is me that needs to get their ducks in a row...

Thomas

Not going down this road with you. You already know all there is to know about it, so why bother?

I will ask you the same question I posed on the previous page: Ever heard of varying degrees of a disorder?

Isn't it why we have a Kip scale in the first place? You talk about anxiety as though it were an all or nothing proposition.

No, actually you are going down this road or you would not respond with questions.

Yes, I have heard of varying degrees. But, then that is a redundant question being you know I know all there is to know about it, as you stated, Right? Wow, say that ten times fast! No, I am not describing it as an all or nothing... If you read what I am saying you will see that. But you are done right? Take it easy now.

Yep. Totally done. I know when I'm in the presence of greatness.

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ANNSIE

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #30 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 12:03pm

Quote:

Now, you say she is a doctor and a supporter? Is she practicing medicine here? If she is, she should be showing some credentials...I would really like to know where she is practicing medicine. Or, by "doctor," do you mean she has a PHD in a field other than medicine?

I have done that already, provided details of my credentials both here and to OUCH 3 years ago. I dont think I need to do it again. If you are in doubt, ask DJ, he knows who I am. You can also ask any OUCH officers, they all know too.

Quote:

Either way, I have to question her statement. She gives the impression that people should deal with their anxieties on their own with these techniques, using no outside help. Then, in the next breath states that "People who need medication do so because they seek help too late." This does not sound right to me.

Apart from you, no one else here got the impression that I told Kev not to look for help outside. I guess that when you said " outside help" you meant professional help ? I can assure you that any anxiety therapists be them doctors or psychologists, will tell Kev exactly what I did.

I am sorry that what I said doesnt sound right to you. If you are interested, I can PM you titles of medical books and articles that say just that. I would be interested if you have evidences proving otherwise.

Quote:

Hyperventilation can cause a person to faint, and if she is a doctor, could be giving false information here... And anxiety can cause you to lose control, be it if you are aware or not. Who here in the midst of a cycle does not suffer from some kind of anxiety, can't sleep and needs some kind of help with getting the sleep they need before they loose control. I see other holes in what she describes, but I am sure you can see them for yourself if you look.

Hyperventilation caused by social phobia makes a person feel faint but they do not actually loose consciousness from it. Everything that I said had to do with the condition Kev was talking about, not anxiety associated with CH. The loss of control one feels during an anxiety attack due to social phobia is entirely different from the loss of control associated with CH. No one is talking about CH here.

With social phobia, the most fearful thing is to loose control in front of strangers, such as sweating too much, unable to focus, unable to keep a conversation, making a fool out of themselves in public, etc. In severe cases, the person may feel like they are going to have a heart attack or going to drop dead. These things dont actually happen.

Quote:

If she is a doctor, I have to question where? Even now, she is back pedaling on her original blanket statement. I still see flaws in what she is "prescribing/clarifying" for Kev to do. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for each other here? I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

Where I practice has nothing to do with my posts here and I am not back pedalling on what I said. I did not make a blanket statement. I answered very specifically to Kev's post. It was you who took the wrong impression and for some obscure reason linked it to CH.

I am glad you are watching out for Kev's sake. So please tell me, if you so disagree with my suggestions to Kev, what is your suggestion? Do you suggest that he not bothers with learning any relaxation technique and goes straight for medication ? If you do, can you back it up with reliable evidences to show that it is the best way ?

Quote:

No, Brew, Never called her a quack, I called her opinion/statement/idea quackery. It is different, like if I were to say "what you just said was idiotic," does not mean I called you an idiot. No?

I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

With all due respect, calling what someone else posted quackery is borderline on slander. If you disagree with what I said, you could simply state that " I disagree with what you said because ..... " .

You then followed up with this post where you repeatedly questioning my credentials and my place of work, which has nothing to do with the thread but rather is a personal attack.

As far as I am concerned, you have violated the rules DJ set out. He very clearly stated that deliberate intention to personally attack someone, even if in disguise will not be tolerated.

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pattik

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #31 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 12:12pm

From the first page of this website:
Quote:

DISCLAIMER: All information contained on this web site is for informational purposes only. It is in no way intended to be used as a replacement for professional medical treatment. clusterheadaches.com makes no claims as to the scientific/clinical validity of the information on this site OR to that of the information linked to from this site. All information taken from the internet should be discussed with a medical professional!

And I would add that it should be face-to-face, not over the phone, and definitely not a PM or email with someone you can't look in the eye. Internet advice is worth exactly what you've paid for it.

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #32 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 12:20pm

Annette,

I for one am so glad that you are here to offer help and insight on both levels.... as a supporter and a doctor. Your kindness and compassion and willingness to help EVERYONE here is truly amazing. Thank you!

I know a child that was DXed last summer as having PANDA. It is when Strep attacks the part of the brain that triggers OCD. She was having severe panic attacks and exhibiting compulsive behaviors. Her parents chose NOT to medicate her. She learned relaxation techniques and used a desensitizing technique to get her used to situations that made her uncomfortable. It has worked for her. She is almost back to normal. Just thought I'd share.

Jeannie

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icedragon

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #33 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 12:36pm

Annsie,

You come across like you are practicing medicine, and it would appear now that you might be. Now, if you go into a doctors office, they have their credentials posted where everyone can see them. What you call attacking, I call challenging. I am sorry you see it differently. So, I disagree with what you say because what you are saying is vague and can be misleading. You appear to be, and come accross as a professional on an informational board. Have a nice day.

Thomas

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arcticspirals

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #34 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 12:57pm

Anxiety has to be one of those sticky subjects friends even have a hard time discussing. I have seen it bounce from a personal attack of ones strength or life knowledge to a unique character point. In between is the actual I think, it happens, its scary, it can inhibit life as I know it. Therefore, treatment of any kind is worth reading.

My experience of anxiety is my only route I can take, for awhile yes what Annise posted was helpful and in the end was the route to a lifetime tool for me. But anxiety halted my life, my doc is always my best friend. And I guess I want to extend the idea that medication doesn't ever have to be life long for things such as anxiety.
Mine was short lived, a year. Over that year, while helpers from medication, I had to work on establishing the root cause. My doctor made it make sense to me. There was no organism in my blood that did this to me, it was my minds response and as such only my mind can cure it. He can help, rather the pills can help by shading things for me. But in the end I did have to decide if pills were the long run, or another route.

It changed my idea of medication forever. And I took them, they helped. For someone I am, main bill payer, mom, and not the time to hold up daily 'to dos' I needed something to help me get back in the ring tomorrow~ not after restablishing how I look at life. Slowly, I got off them. Using close to what Annise has posted.
And hopefully this is recieved as a 'light at the end of the tunnel' sort of post for you.

Thanks for sharing though, its powerful, anxiety. Just don't let it win over lifes possibilities. Do whatever it is you have to get the time to find your cure~ even if it means medication for a short duration of time.

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ANNSIE

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #35 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 1:16pm

Thanks for clarifying Thomas.

Firstly I am sorry if what I posted was vague and misleading to you. No one else seemed to have the same problem understanding what I said. Some people disagreed on some points in relation to their own experience, but I do not believe what I posted to be vague or misleading. What I posted is the standard approach used by all professionals. If you go to the top anxiety clinic, that would be exactly what you get.

Secondly, I am not sure though why what I said appeared to you as practising medicine, yet what other people said did not. Monty basically said the same thing with his recommendation of herbal medicine and other medications. Is he practising too ?

You said I appear to be, and come across as a professional ..... maybe it is because I am a professional, thats how I talk, period. Do you prefer that I appear and come across as UNprofessional ? Would it be better if I post things like " Yeah sure, mate, take some xanax, that will fix your problem " ?

If you have a suggestion as to how I can post and not sound like I am practising medicine, please share, I am all ears.

The real issue here, I think, with my post , is my strong stance towards avoiding medication. Personally, I am pro natural therapy. I always strongly advocate against using strong medication unless really necessary, especially addictive medication like narcotics or benzodiazepines. Most anti-anxiety medication is benzo. They have a lot of side effects and are highly addictive. It is wise to try to avoid them if possible.

People who share the same opinion will see nothing wrong with my posts, but those who prefer to use these medication may feel like they are being attacked or undermined. When someone feels they are being attacked or put down or thought less of, emotions will start to run high and they may take offence at my posts, while I have no intention to undermine anyone's choice of treatment at any time. I simply point out the possible danger.

For eg, Monty said " taking medication doesnt mean being weak or helpless " yet nowhere in any of my post did I say people who take medication for anxiety are weak or helpless. It was the impression he formed himself. The same with the impression you had about me telling Kev not to seek outside help and not allowed to take medication, nowhere in my post did I say that.

Anxiety covers such a huge spectrum of symptoms and causes and treatments, it is impossible to cover everything about it in one post to make it relevant to everyone's cases. I tried to be specific only to Kev's original question, and it should be taken in that context.

And yes, take everything posted here simply as information, no matter how professional or unprofessional it may sound, and check it out with your own therapist. If anyone chooses to follow the advices given here at face value, its at their own choice and risk.

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monty

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #36 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 1:57pm

Quote:

For eg, Monty said " taking medication doesnt mean being weak or helpless " yet nowhere in any of my post did I say people who take medication for anxiety are weak or helpless. It was the impression he formed himself. The same with the impression you had about me telling Kev not to seek outside help and not allowed to take medication, nowhere in my post did I say that.

That was in response to your comment:

"Doing so and you are telling your brain that you have absolutely no control over your mind and body, and that you need something else outside of you to do it for you. Repeating the process a few times and your brain learns to become dependent on the substance, the first step towards addiction."

I interpreted the "absolutely no control" and "need something outside of of you" as 'weak and helpless.' I did not think that you were calling people weak and helpless, and I was refuting the idea that using these meds was equivalent to loss of control ... they can be used to help regain control.

I agree with you that one possible outcome of medication is dependency. But it is not the only one. Short-term or intermittent use of benzos can break a cycle of anxiety. Many people with anxiety have an anxiety over becoming dependent, and self-regulate when using these drugs.

Quote:

Monty basically said the same thing with his recommendation of herbal medicine and other medications. Is he practising too ?

Perhaps I should have been clearer. That was a list of how I deal with anxiety and panic disorder in my life. I don't think anyone is practicing medicine here - no one is developing a doctor-patient relationship, no one is diagnosing and prescribing, no one is charging. We are sharing personal experience and discussing information and theories, which is quite different (and a good thing).

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« Last Edit: Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 2:10pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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icedragon

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #37 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 2:35pm

Annsie,

I did say it could be misleading. I disagreed with the way you came across. Your statement was initially vague, then you clarified. I do not agree that your approach is a standard approach. And it would appear as you are practicing medicine because you do. Others are making suggestions from personal experience, you are using professional experience. I do not think it is possible for you to come across like you are not practicing because you do... Do you want to come across like you are not practicing medicine?

I don't think the problem is a natural approach. I think it is how it was presented. After giving what you presented as a definition of anxiety, I think it might be wise to mention your views on medication before saying things such as "The worst way to deal with anxiety is to use medication or any type of chemicals." You also presented it as a do it yourself approach, you never mentioned seeking professional help in the way of counseling or using natural supplements. Maybe because you feel you are doing the counseling and that is your professional nature???

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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: anxiety anyone? Reply #38 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 2:41pm Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or
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Artonio CH.com Alumnus Offline I Love Posts: 604 New Castle, Pa Gender:	Re: anxiety anyone? Reply #39 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 2:46pm This thread is provoking an anxiety attack! Breathe! Breathe! with warm regards, Tony
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Mrs Deej

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #40 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 2:46pm

Instead of worrying about how you think someone is coming off, why don't you get back to the original post, Roll Eyes

I believe he was asking for help. I know I forgot what it was (sorry kev), I imagine everyone else did too...

kevmd wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2009 at 10:11pm:

I don't know what is happening to me lately. I am usually a very outgoing person could sit down and have a conversation with anyone. I am starting to fear certain situations. I now hate being the center of attention for even a short period of time. WTF!!!! I feel like I am hyperventilating. I have a pretty big meeting this friday. I hope I can fight through this shit.

I am thinking of taking the easy way and getting medicated. Any one deal with something similar? Advice?

Changes in my life recently are less medication for CH, stress from health situations, and quitting smoking.

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ANNSIE

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #41 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 3:13pm

monty wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 1:57pm:

That was in response to your comment:

"Doing so and you are telling your brain that you have absolutely no control over your mind and body, and that you need something else outside of you to do it for you. Repeating the process a few times and your brain learns to become dependent on the substance, the first step towards addiction."

I interpreted the "absolutely no control" and "need something outside of of you" as 'weak and helpless.' I did not think that you were calling people weak and helpless, and I was refuting the idea that using these meds was equivalent to loss of control ... they can be used to help regain control.

Thanks Monty for clarifying and thanks for the discussion.

In a way though, you are contradicting yourself. You refuted the idea that using med was equivalent to loss of control and that they can be used to help regain control. But you would not need to REGAIN control if it was not lost in the first place , would you ?

At risk of sounding like someone who cant stop talking, there is one important aspect of anxiety that is worth making clear though.

Anxiety is a complex condition with several phases. It has a mental phase, a biological phase and a physical phase. The mental phase involves both the conscious and the subconscious mind. Sometimes a cause for the anxiety can be identified, such as in Kev's case. Other times, no cause can be found. The person can suddenly experience symptoms of anxiety out of nowhere. When a person takes a medication such as Benzo, the messages they send to the subconscious mind can be very different to what they are thinking conciously.

I know many people who get into a panic attack just because they run out of their anti-anxiety med. The reason they panic is because subconsciously their brain tells them that they can not cope unless they have the med. That was what I was referring to. Some others carry their meds with them like a "security blanket " even when they have not had any symptom for months or even years. Others pop a tablet the first minute they feel a twinge of anxiousness, while they could have gone for a walk, take some deep breaths for example. This is their subconcious mind trusting the med more than their ability to remain in control. These are called anxiety behaviours. People with anxiety disorder display an array of these behavioural symptoms.

Anxiety starts as a thought. At first there is no chemical involved. However, each and every thought we have causes a corresponding chemical reaction in the body. Think of something sad and we cry, think of something funny and we laugh. Think of some danger and we start to get anxious.

The next phase is chemical, that is when the body responds to the anxious thoughts by releasing adrenaline, histamine, cortisol and so on ...

The last phase is biological, ie the reaction of various organs to the above chemicals. Thats when you get palpitation, sweating, dizzy etc. By the time you get to this stage, its too late, mental control is lost or at least very difficult. The chemical level is too high to switch off. You cant stop them. You can only either endure their effects or use other chemicals to counteract them.

My point is, try to gain control BEFORE you get to this stage. Anxiety can buid up slowly or quickly, it can be mild or it can be severe. If and when it builds up too quickly or too strongly, one needs medication to temporarily counteract the physical effects. However, medication does not address the route cause of anxiety, cognitive therapy does.

Sometimes it is necessary to use medication first up to calm a person down enough to be able to think clearly. However, unless this is followed diligently with cognitive therapy, the person may not bother to learn or practice the techniques. The med works, the anxiety is gone and with it the urge to spend time/effort learning new techniques. Kev knows that using med at this stage in his condition is "taking the easy way out", yet he is tempted. We are all humans, after all.

Since anxiety start as a thought, it is possible to use thoughts to control anxiety. It is difficult and it takes time, but it should be the ultimate aim of anxiety therapy. Medication is there to facilitate this process, but should not to replace it.

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Kevin_M

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #42 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:35pm

Brew wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:25am:

So, Thomas, you're calling a medical doctor a quack?

Quote:

No, Brew, Never called her a quack, I called her opinion/statement/idea quackery.

Nonetheless, Thomas,

quackery: the practice or methods of a quack.

Quote:

I am sorry, but this is pure quackery.

your first sentence chosen for disagreement. There can be flaws to disagree in that, too.

Quote:

I am just pointing out that I disagree with her suggestions for Kev's sake.

Kevin_M wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 8:21am:

I cannot argue with Brew's point, Thomas. Discounting in that fashion ...

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monty

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #43 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:39pm

Endless wrangling with the issue:

Annsie: No, I don't think it is a contradiction. If there is a situation that is not optimal, then taking action to correct it is not a sign of not having control. It is the act of taking control. This is true regardless of whether the action plan involves psychological or pharmaceutical methods. So helpless is not an accurate description - unless one thinks that chemicals are 'cheating.'

You stated "Sometimes a cause for the anxiety can be identified, such as in Kev's case." Wait a minute, do we really know the cause? Are social situations the cause, or the trigger? If alcohol and perfume trigger a cluster headache, we don't say we have found the causes. I suggest that there is an underlying change in brain activity that causes negative thoughts to amplify and multiply in anxiety disorders. Sometimes this can be treated effectively with cognitive therapy, sometimes not.

My model does not assume that things begin in some pure mental dimension, and then progress to the physical if not treated. We agree that there can be a feedback where each affects the other, but I suggest that anxiety disorders usually have a biological basis from day 1. OCD, depression, anxiety, and other related conditions have a fairly strong genetic predisposition, and are associated with

You said "I know many people who get into a panic attack just because they run out of their anti-anxiety med. The reason they panic is because subconsciously their brain tells them that they can not cope unless they have the med." ... would you be surprised if I told you that I know people with high blood pressure that experience greater hypertension if they think that they will be somewhere and unable to take their medicine? That doesn't make hypertension a purely cognitive disorder. It doesn't mean that blood pressure pills are not sometimes a good idea. Is it possible that people taking anti-arrhythmia drugs might also also skip extra beats if they were stranded somewhere and thought they might not be able to take their med tomorrow morning?

Part of the difference between us is that you seem to think that mind and brain are separable. I do not. To me, some statements you made are wrong at face, like: "Anxiety starts as a thought. At first there is no chemical involved." How exactly does one think without chemicals like neurotransmitters? How does one think optimally when neurotransmitters are disturbed for some biological reason?

</ end of Endless wrangling with the issue>

Here's a link that might be useful to people with anxiety or panic:

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« Last Edit: Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:45pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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deltadarlin

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #44 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:40pm

Quote:

If a patient who only recently develops some symptoms of anxiety sees a doctor for help and that doctor immediately whips out his/her prescription pad and prescribes xanax or klonopin, as the first or only treatment, without at least trying to explain what anxiety is and how to deal with it the natural ways, that doc is indeed a quack.

I'll make sure to tell my doctor that he is a quack, given that I went to see him a few weeks ago because I was developing severe anxiety issues (crop up with PTSD and flashbacks-none of which he knows about) and he wrote me a script for 15 5 mg. valium to help me get things back under control and Wellbutrin for the longer term. Long term I can deal with my issues, it's the short term that I needed to get back under control.

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Artonio

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #45 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:56pm

deltadarlin wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:40pm:

Quote:

If a patient who only recently develops some symptoms of anxiety sees a doctor for help and that doctor immediately whips out his/her prescription pad and prescribes xanax or klonopin, as the first or only treatment, without at least trying to explain what anxiety is and how to deal with it the natural ways, that doc is indeed a quack.

I'll make sure to tell my doctor that he is a quack, given that I went to see him a few weeks ago because I was developing severe anxiety issues (crop up with PTSD and flashbacks-none of which he knows about) and he wrote me a script for 15 5 mg. valium to help me get things back under control and Wellbutrin for the longer term. Long term I can deal with my issues, it's the short term that I needed to get back under control.

As a person who deals with anxiety attacks, depression, bi-polar disorder... I still have to agree with Annette. To not at least have a dialogue with the doctor before he prescribes willy-nilly is in my humble opinion less then optimal and I would think twice about seeing that doctor again.

In my experience... it benefited me personal to have a team-like situation between my doctor, therapist and myself. It is also extremely important to have the loving support of friends and family while going through this. I was a prisoner in my own home for years because of agoraphobia... I chose to stay away from meds because I disliked or could not tolerate many of the negative effects.

My friends and family here helped me through the agoraphobia....

It can be taken care of without medication... I am living proof.

with warm regards,
Tony

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« Last Edit: Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:57pm by Artonio »

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Pinkfloyd

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #46 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 6:51pm

Posting for informational purposes only.

There is still much to be learned about this subject and its causes/treatments.

This just came out.

* Child abuse 'alters stress gene' *
Abuse in early childhood permanently alters how the brain responds to stress, a Canadian study suggests.
Full story:
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A research team led by McGill University, in Montreal, examined the gene for the glucocorticoid receptor - which helps control the response to stress

They found chemical changes which reduced the activity of the gene in those who suffered child abuse.

And they showed this reduced activity leads to fewer glucocorticoid receptors.

Those affected would have had an abnormally heightened response to stress, the researchers said.

Long-term

It suggests that experience in childhood when the brain is developing, can have a long-term impact on how someone responds to stressful situations.

But study leader Professor Michael Meaney said they believe these biochemical effects could also occur later in life.

"If you're a public health individual or a child psychologist you could say this shows you nothing you didn't already know.

"But until you show the biological process, many people in government and policy-makers are reluctant to believe it's real.

"Beyond that, you could ask whether a drug could reverse these effects and that's a possibility."

Dr Jonathan Mill, from the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London said the research added to growing evidence that environmental factors can alter the expression of genes - a process known as epigenetics.
-------------------------------

Just wanted to add some information that might be helpful.

It's in no way meant to suggest anyone in this thread has such problems nor is it directed toward any theories, suggestions etc.

It was interesting to me because it speaks of the possibility that someone's anxiety could have genetic factors.

Bobw
*slowly backing away from the keyboard and this thread*

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"those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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monty

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #47 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:09pm

Got Magnesium?

Magnesium is anxiolytic (reduces anxiety). Magnesium deficiency is associated with increased anxiety. Clusterheads as a group are magnesium deficient. Hmmm...

Quote:

J Am Coll Nutr. 1994 Oct;13(5):429-46.
Consequences of magnesium deficiency on the enhancement of stress reactions; preventive and therapeutic implications (a review).
Seelig MS.

Department of Nutrition, School of Public Health, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

Stress intensifies release of catecholamines and corticosteroids that increase survival of normal animals when their lives are threatened.... In affluent societies, severe dietary Mg deficiency is uncommon, but dietary imbalances such as high intakes of fat and/or calcium (Ca) can intensify Mg inadequacy, especially under conditions of stress. Adrenergic stimulation of lipolysis can intensify its deficiency by complexing Mg with liberated fatty acids (FA), A low Mg/Ca ratio increases release of catecholamines, which lowers tissue (i.e. myocardial) Mg levels. It also favors excess release or formation of factors (derived both from FA metabolism and the endothelium), that are vasoconstrictive and platelet aggregating; a high Ca/Mg ratio also directly favors blood coagulation, which is also favored by excess fat and its mobilization during adrenergic lipolysis. Auto-oxidation of catecholamines yields free radicals, which explains the enhancement of the protective effect of Mg by anti-oxidant nutrients against cardiac damage caused by beta-catecholamines. Thus, stress, whether physical (i.e. exertion, heat, cold, trauma--accidental or surgical, burns), or emotional (i.e. pain, anxiety, excitement or depression) and dyspnea as in asthma increases need for Mg. Genetic differences in Mg utilization may account for differences in vulnerability to Mg deficiency and differences in body responses to stress.

Quote:

Cesk Psychiatr. 1992 Aug;88(3-4):141-4.
[Potentiation of the effects of anxiolytics with magnesium salts]

Quote:

An Med Interna. 1991 Nov;8(11):576.
[Anxiolytic effect of magnesium]

Quote:

J Womens Health Gend Based Med. 2000 Mar;9(2):131-9.
A synergistic effect of a daily supplement for 1 month of 200 mg magnesium plus 50 mg vitamin B6 for the relief of anxiety-related premenstrual symptoms: a randomized, double-blind, crossover study.

Quote:

Pharmacol Rep. 2008 Sep-Oct;60(5):655-63.
NMDA/glutamate mechanism of magnesium-induced anxiolytic-like behavior in mice.

Quote:

Magnes Res. 2006 Jun;19(2):102-6.
Anxiety and stress among science students. Study of calcium and magnesium alterations.

Quote:

Pharmacol Rep. 2008 Jul-Aug;60(4):483-9.
Benzodiazepine/GABA(A) receptors are involved in magnesium-induced anxiolytic-like behavior in mice.

Quote:

J Am Coll Nutr. 2004 Oct;23(5):529S-533S.
Magnesium attenuates post-traumatic depression/anxiety following diffuse traumatic brain injury in rats.

Quote:

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2004 May;78(1):7-12.
Antidepressant- and anxiolytic-like activity of magnesium in mice.

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« Last Edit: Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:26pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Kevin_M

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #48 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 7:45pm

Pinkfloyd wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 6:51pm:

Posting for informational purposes only.

There is still much to be learned about this subject and its causes/treatments.

This just came out.

from article:

Quote:

They found chemical changes which reduced the activity of the gene in those who suffered child abuse.

And they showed this reduced activity leads to fewer glucocorticoid receptors.

Will seem helpful. Some good learnin', Bob.

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ANNSIE

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Re: anxiety anyone?
Reply #49 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 9:28pm

deltadarlin wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 5:40pm:

Quote:

If a patient who only recently develops some symptoms of anxiety sees a doctor for help and that doctor immediately whips out his/her prescription pad and prescribes xanax or klonopin, as the first or only treatment, without at least trying to explain what anxiety is and how to deal with it the natural ways, that doc is indeed a quack.

I'll make sure to tell my doctor that he is a quack, given that I went to see him a few weeks ago because I was developing severe anxiety issues (crop up with PTSD and flashbacks-none of which he knows about) and he wrote me a script for 15 5 mg. valium to help me get things back under control and Wellbutrin for the longer term. Long term I can deal with my issues, it's the short term that I needed to get back under control.

Please correct me if I am wrong. So you went to see your doctor, you told him that for the first time in your life you experienced severe anxiety issues and your doctor did not bother to ask you anything of the history, the possible causes, the triggers .... he didnt bother to explain to you why and how these symptoms of severe anxiety have come about ... he didnt at least mention other methods of controlling the symptoms ... he just wrote you a script for Valium without knowing that you suffer from PTSD and are having flashbacks, and out the door you went ?

If that was what happened, then yes, your doctor is a quack in my opinion. I believe that many people here will agree with me.

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