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ICFBI !!! (Read 16208 times)

monty

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #50 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 9:11am

Brew wrote on Mar 11^th, 2009 at 7:12am:

Nobody's answered my question: What is the perfect temperature for the earth?

Well, if you want to keep agriculture going at the current breadbasket locations (US Midwest, Pampas, Ukraine, and Yellow River Valleys), then it would not be a good idea to heat things up more than a degree or so. A three or four degree shift would make these areas far less suited to agriculture. The areas to the north in Canada do not have soils that are nearly so good, so it would not be a simple case of one country's loss being another's gain.

Likewise, people who like mean sea level around where it is now probably want things to be about the same or cooler. Losing 2-5% of the US land mass doesn't sound like much, until you consider how many people live or work near the coast and what the value of the built environment is there.

People who like eating oceanic fish also don't want much warming, as oxygen levels in the water and productivity drop with increasing temperature. Even if someone personally hates fish, about 20% of protein eaten by humans comes from the oceans, so a loss there will impact the cost of other sources of protein.

Quote:

CORVALLIS, Ore. -- A 10-year, satellite-based analysis has shown for the first time that primary biological productivity in the oceans - the growth of phytoplankton that forms the basis for the rest of the marine food chain - is tightly linked to climate change, and would be reduced by global warming.

The study, published this week in the journal Nature by researchers from Oregon State University and five other institutions, found that on a global scale, a warmer climate could cause a rapid, overall reduction in marine life.

“This clearly showed that overall ocean productivity decreases when the climate warms,” said lead author Michael Behrenfeld, an OSU professor of botany and expert on remote sensing of marine biology.

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Quote:

And I could sit in my house and mess around with the thermostat in an attempt to be able to notice a one-tenth of a degree difference in the temperature without success.

Sure - in that scenario, 1/10th of a degree is not significant at all. But that is not what we are talking about in climate change - the average change per year may be a fraction of a degree, but over decades and centuries it is semi-cumulative and the net effect is much greater.

A more relevant metaphor than your house is the human body. Body temperature is usually lowest around waking at dawn. It can go up several degrees if we are working in hot weather, or go down several degrees if we sit around in cold weather. The arms and legs vary in temperature more than the rest of the body. But if the average core temperature of the body changes by a fraction of a degree over time (as with thyroid problems or chronic fever), a person will lose or gain a lot of weight and the way their body works will change dramatically.

Even though the temperature in your neck of the woods may range from -30 to 105 degrees F over the course of a year, changing the average temperature by a few degrees will lead to big changes in the amount of ice on Earth, it will change precipitation and sea levels and crop ecology in non-trivial ways. In the long run, the Earth will adapt. In the short run, some species and human societies may not.

« Last Edit: Mar 11^th, 2009 at 9:53am by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Brew

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #51 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 9:42am

So, I'll set up my Climate Change Adjustment Machine, and if you'll be so kind as to post here when we need a tweak one way or the other, I'll just flip the switch to heat or cool, depending on where we're at. It'll have a combination dirty coal furnace / internal combustion diesel engine for global warming, and a quarter-acre greenhouse with a removable top which will release oxygen into the atmosphere when cooling is needed. Since you know when each is needed, just let me know and I'll do my part.

"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand

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monty

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #52 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 10:00am

Excellent, dude!

The available evidence suggests that rapidly burning carbon that accumulated over millions of years is enough of an influence to overcome the hypothetical global cooling (which may have happened in the last 1.3 years, although that could be a blip).

So for now, the dirty coal furnace and internal combustion need to be muzzled. You'll also breathe better. I'm not sure about your greenhouse idea, but we can talk about this and other strategies in the future.

« Last Edit: Mar 11^th, 2009 at 10:02am by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #53 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 10:02am Deal.
Back to top	"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand IP Logged

FramCire CH.com Alumnus Offline Life like a froward child must be humored a little Posts: 1710 Bolivar, MO USA Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #54 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 12:21pm I wont get into any more political threads after the way I was treated last time. However, there is 1 simple solution that would have avoided this entire thread! DVR!!! Fast forward through commercials and you can just watch the show.
Back to top	You've overstayed your welcome since the day we met but it doesn't seem to matter to you. No medications are your master, nothing makes you fret, it's a helpless feeling having nothing I can do IP Logged

Lobster CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 2417 Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #55 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 12:41pm Brew wrote on Mar 11^th, 2009 at 10:02am: Deal. It was 70 here yesterday. Today it is 29. Fire up the coal stoker. Keep it running until I have to drive between a pair of Corona bottles to cross the IL/WI border. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or
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Potter

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #56 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 12:44pm

Current conditions (as of 9:53 AM) Today's forecast
°F | °C
Mostly SunnyMostly Sunny
-2°F

Feels like: 0°F

Barometer: 30.3 in steady
Dewpoint: -4°
Humidity: 92%
Visibility: 10 miles
Precip in last hr: NA
Precip last 24 hrs: NA
Wind: 3 mph S
Sunrise: 7:34 AM
Sunset: 7:14 PM
UV Index: 2 Low

Observed at Billings, Billings Logan International Airport.
All times shown are local to Billings.
Today Snow
Hi: 18°
Lo: 4°
Snow
Noon Snow Showers 2°
Snow Showers
6 PM Snow Showers 16°
Snow Showers
9 PM Snow Showers 11°

Cows need to fart more cuz this global warming thing ain't working.

Kinder gentler Potter

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Batch

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #57 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 7:20pm

Mrs Deej wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 10:43am:

Wow, Batch, we all know you HATE President Obama...

Steph,

I don’t hate Obama… There are too many good people in need of love and a helping hand to waste time hating an empty suit like him… That’s why I spend most of my time reaching out to cluster headache sufferers.

I do hate what Obama and the liberals in Congress are doing to our country. I also find it terribly frightening that so many people are totally oblivious to the damage Obama and the socialist run Congress have already done to the economy and that Obama intends to do even more damage with the help of the wicked witch of the West – Pelosi, who’s out of control demands to fly around in Air Force G-5 executive jets are coming at our expense.

Between the two of them and the politburo they’ve already run up enough deficit spending with the stimulus plan that your children and my grandchildren will still be paying for it long after we’re gone. That’s over $18,000 in additional taxes per household and that doesn’t include the out-year costs of increased entitlements buried in this bill that will take it to over $80,000 per household in additional taxes regardless of the income bracket…

To be fair, I’m equally pissed at the three gutless RINO Senators who could have stopped this terrible plan so people could read it and the other Republicans in the House that voted to pass it. I’m also pissed that President Bush started all this with the first TARP legislation instead of backstopping US banks and financial institutions through the FDIC and Federal Reserve…

This is why I would like to encourage you and any of the others who don’t understand what they are doing to all of us, to pull down and read the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009 that Congress passed and Obama signed today (that President Bush promised to veto) with 8500 earmarks, that Obama promised to veto during his campaign.

When you do download it, please find something we can’t live without that is worth going further in debt. You can download it at:

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I think you’ll find the following as tragically disturbing as I do like:

Giving USAID $100 Million dollars of our dearly needed tax money to spend on foreign countries so they can capture green house gasses, or
Giving foreign countries $195 Million dollars to protect biodiversity, or
$ 25 Million dollars to protect the Amazon basin, or my favorite
$ 4 Million dollars for DISABILITY PROGRAMS in FOREIGN COUNTRIES

We’ve too many cluster headache sufferers here in the United States now that can’t afford to pay for their own oxygen therapy or other cluster headache medications… I know… I talk with many of them on a frequent basis.

Please tell me these are examples of things you truly believe is where we do not need to spend our tax dollars…

If you haven’t figured it out by now, Obama only cares that he has the power to push a Marxist agenda that includes the redistribution of wealth and demonizes business with higher taxes so he can pay back and empower the unions that paid for his nomination and election. That will cost all of us in many ways.

It’s also no secret that he wants to reduce the public to a welfare class that’s totally dependant on government by promising more entitlements. Read his books… Universal Health Care is a classic example. The National Coalition on Health Care at Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

has some eye opening facts:

In 2008, health care spending in the United States reached $2.4 trillion, and was projected to reach $3.1 trillion in 2012.1 Health care spending is projected to reach $4.3 trillion by 2016.1
Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense.3
In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017.1
Although nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.3
Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.4

And here’s what the faithful obamanites think when their messiah speaks about Universal Health Care as our Nation’s Capitol burns… “Why work for a living? Obama’s gonna buy my house for me and give me free medical insurance even if I don’t work… And those evil people who do work for a living… who already pay for their own house and who are already paying for their own health insurance… Well… They’re just going to have to pay for mine… “

This massive increase in entitlements makes government bigger, and that should scare the crap out of everyone. The idiots in the Senate can’t even run their own private dining room without loosing millions and they want to run ours and make us pay for their stupidity?

Think about it… When things get tight financially, most of us develop and stick to a tight budge to make sure expenses don’t exceed income. So what do the idiots in Congress and the Marxist trained community organizer in the White House do… Just the opposite… Please tell me this makes any sense… While we plan our meals to ensure our families eat healthy food at reasonable price, the obamanoid tells us to sacrifice while he and his family dine on $100 a plate Kobe beef…

Obama’s idea of change is the destruction of the Constitution and all it stands for. This will come at the expense of more freedoms lost. If the socialists are successful in passing the "Employee Free Choice Act" we will be on the road to socialism. The title of this bill alone should turn people’s bowels to water… What free choice? The socialists think people are too stupid to realize the title of this bill is exactly the opposite of what it says… It takes away the right to a secret ballot… That is another freedom lost!

The Employee Free Choice Act will take away the right to decide whether or not to vote for a unionized workplace with a secret ballot. If passed, this bill also means union officials will get to see the employee’s names and how they voted. It also means that a union bureaucrat will get to set the labor rate and work conditions… and not the prevailing labor rate for the type work being accomplished. Taken to the next logical step, that means illegal aliens will now be paid union wages…

So let’s talk about climate change… There have already been a lot of comments here in this thread that have debated the cause and effect of climate change and whether or not man plays a role. So far as rational cluster headache sufferers, we don’t appear have an answer on which we can all agree… So let’s talk more specifically about the propaganda (even during the TV program 24) where the socialists are using climate change to justify one of the most egregious pieces of appropriation legislation (That’s Congressional speak for more taxes) called CAP IN TRADE. If you think this will only apply to the big fossil fuel consuming corporations… think again… If you use electrical power to heat and run your home… YOU PAY. If you use heating oil or natural gas to warm your home… YOU PAY. If you drive a car… YOU PAY.

If people really believe Obama’s lies that they won’t pay more tax if their family earns less that $250,000 I’m very sorry for them and I wish they would open their eyes.

So you see, I don’t hate Obama… It is just that I still believe that Lincoln was right in his hopes that “Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth.”

I also believe in the Declaration of Independence that states:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

Finally, I believe in the guiding principles of democracy as laid down by our founding fathers in the Constitution of the United States... Not in the principles of socialism, fascism, or Marxism as espoused by the Marxist trained community organizer in the White House or the idiots in Congress.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

« Last Edit: Mar 11^th, 2009 at 7:41pm by Batch »

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

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Jimi

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #58 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 7:28pm

Pete,
You're going to have a heart attack if you don't quit thinking about the things that you cannot change. You are retired. You have made yours.

Help out those around you that are struggling. Enjoy what few years that you have left. Thats what I am doing.

Life is too short to stroke out. I don't like it either but I'm not gonna let it control me. Tongue

« Last Edit: Mar 11^th, 2009 at 7:30pm by Jimi »

I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.

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Batch

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #59 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 8:23pm

Jimi my dear friend,

Thanks for the kind words of concern, but to do nothing is to die a thousand deaths. Pointing out the egregious acts of corrupt politicians in either party that are out to destroy our great Nation keeps my brain cells functioning properly and provides a healthy level of cardiovascular exercise...

That gives me the control I need to reach out to others in need... including those in desperate need of common sense...

Take care,

V/R, Batch

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stevegeebe CH.com Alumnus Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 1687 Mandeville, LA Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #60 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 8:26pm Hey Batch..it all about the Cloward Piven Strategy. Steve G
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monty

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #61 - Mar 12^th, 2009 at 4:41am

Batch wrote on Mar 11^th, 2009 at 7:20pm:

It’s also no secret that he wants to reduce the public to a welfare class that’s totally dependant on government by promising more entitlements. Read his books… Universal Health Care is a classic example. The National Coalition on Health Care at Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

has some eye opening facts:

In 2008, health care spending in the United States reached $2.4 trillion, and was projected to reach $3.1 trillion in 2012.1 Health care spending is projected to reach $4.3 trillion by 2016.1
Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense.3
In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017.1
Although nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.3
Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.4

You did a good job of disproving your own point there, Batch. Other advanced countries spend half of what the US does, and they cover ALL their citizens with a decent standard of care. It amazes me that you can take that as proof for your recurrent political obsessions - if you would think about it, it shows that the current system is failing in many ways.

Another great thing about our corporate health system is that if you lose your job, you lose your health care, and then the price of insurance goes way up - assuming you can find a company to cover you and not write a contract that excludes anything you have suffered from in the past!! Assuming that you can afford the insurance without a job.

Why does the US spend so much more to cover only some of of its citizens? About half of every dollar of premiums that people pay them goes for actual medical services, while half goes for overhead, including advertising, sky-boxes at stadiums, and multi-million dollar bonuses for executives that outsource the customer service to third world countries. You think that private corporations are always more efficient? Guess again - there is a huge, wasteful medical bureaucracy on the private side. Government-run programs like Medicaid and Medicare are relatively lean and efficient, spending only about 5% on admin while putting 95% of each dollar to actual medical care. That's right ... the government is actually about 10 times more efficient at administering health insurance than the private sector! Because in this case, government is trying to get the job done, while the corporations are devoted to getting as much of your money as they can!

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Artonio

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #62 - Mar 12^th, 2009 at 4:53am

On the point of health care.. check this chart out that compares what other countries spend compared to the USA...
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

Seems like lots more cash is being spent on administrative fees here in the private sector than on actual medical fees here in the US than in other countries. oh.. and the other countries that I refer to have health care for everyone of it's citizens.

with warm regards,
Tony

« Last Edit: Mar 12^th, 2009 at 4:54am by Artonio »

For in our hands lies the ability to shape our world for good or for ill. President Barack Obama

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Batch CH.com Alumnus Offline Control The Beast With O2 & D3 You Must Posts: 3708 Bremerton, WA Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #63 - Mar 12^th, 2009 at 5:43am Steve, You're right... Thanks... I was giving credit to Rahm "Dead Fish" Emanuel for the Strategy. Take care, V/R, Batch
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Artonio

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #64 - Mar 12^th, 2009 at 6:26am

here's an interesting paper put forth by the O.E.C.D concerning
Health Care Reform in The United States,

It compares both Obama's Plan and McCain's plan then makes an analysis and recommendations.
Interesting.

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with warm regards,
Tony

For in our hands lies the ability to shape our world for good or for ill. President Barack Obama

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Bob P

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #65 - Mar 12^th, 2009 at 10:16am

Quote:

What's a life worth? Apparently not much in Great Britain. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, the government agency that decides which treatments the National Health Service will pay for, has effectively banned Lapatinib, a drug that was shown to slow the progression of breast cancer, and Sutent, which is the only medicine that can prolong the lives of some stomach cancer patients. Banning beneficial drugs due to cost is nothing new in Britain. NICE, which has to be one of history's most ironic acronyms, forbade the use of Tarceva, a lung cancer drug proven to extend patients' lives, and Abatacept, even though it's one of the only drugs that has been shown in clinical testing to improve severe rheumatoid arthritis. Once again, we have to ask: Do we really want to use the British system as the model for a U.S. health care regime? Promises of an effective, cost-effective health care system operated by the federal government are cruel fabrications. The British system shows that the state makes a mess of health care. So does the Canadian plan, which is plagued with unhealthy and often deadly waiting times for treatment. The Swedish government system is no better. It also refuses to provide some expensive medication and, inhumanely, refuses to let patients buy the drugs themselves. Why? According to a Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons article, bureaucrats believe doing so 'would set a bad precedent and lead to unequal access to medicine.' Like Canadians, Swedes are subjected to long waits. They also have denial-of-care problems that sometimes lead to death. A reasonable person would see the record of repeated failures in government-run medicine as evidence that such a system is not sustainable. Yet every central planner thinks he or she -- or his or her immediate group -- is smart enough to correct the flaws of socialist programs and therefore has the moral authority to force others to participate in his experiments. It is the same thinking that will move a person to say we are the ones we've been waiting for." --Investor's Business Daily

Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron. "SHUT UP HUB!"

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Batch

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #66 - Mar 12^th, 2009 at 10:30am

Nice try Monty... There you go again with the typical liberal spin… Diversion, misdirection, obfuscation, and the classic ploy… demonize the private business sector and capitalism...

I don’t recall any private hospitals with sky-boxes… They’re privately funded and they also receive a lot of private donations… or at least they did… until the messiah makes one of his more recent proclamations law in order to severely limit or eliminate tax breaks for charitable contributions to hospitals, church, OUCH, CH.com, etc…

Take another sip of Kool-Aid and stroll over to the nearest VA Hospital or talk to folks who only have Medicaid. The only efficiency government run medical health care enjoys over private sector is the ease with which they reject coverage for needed medications and treatments...

I take it you'd rather have idiot liberal politicians like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd overseeing Universal Health Care... These two criminals helped push the subprime lending that's resulted in the single largest and most catastrophically expensive government orchestrated screw ups in the history of the world...

Having said that, we still have the best private and public health care in the world... That's probably why so many folks want to come here to take advantage of it.

Your argument also fails to recognize a few very important cost drivers affecting private health care medical plans:

Tort system costs... (unheard of in Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries per the chart link Tony posted),
The cost of treating illegal aliens (Medical Tourism),
The added cost of government regulations, and
The cost of Medical Technology...

Tort System Costs - The U.S. tort system cost $252 billion in 2007, which translates to $835 per person or $9 per person more than in 2006. cbo

(I would add that as tort costs continue to climb today as our GDP shrinks so the percentage of medical costs to GDP will climb even more under the Marxist trained community organizer... )

Granted tort system costs are debatable, but that's only if you want to believe what lawyers and liberal politicians say...

Illegal Aliens - The cost of treating illegal aliens has been a hot topic for years...

"Illegal immigrants can get emergency care through Medicaid, the federal-state program for the poor and people with disabilities. But they can't get non-emergency care unless they pay. They are ineligible for most other public benefits.

Data on health care costs for illegal immigrants are sketchy because hospitals and community health centers don't ask about patients' legal status. In California, a 2004 study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform put the state's annual cost at $1.4 billion. Similar studies in Colorado and Minnesota in 2005 came up with much smaller estimates: $31 million and $17 million, respectively.

One thing is clear: Undocumented immigrants are driving up the number of people without health insurance. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that 59% of the nation's illegal immigrants are uninsured, compared with 25% of legal immigrants and 14% of U.S. citizens. Illegal immigrants represent about 15% of the nation's 47 million uninsured people — and about 30% of the increase since 1980" - USA TODAY - CBO studies have similar figures...

Illegal immigrants murder 12 Americans every 24 hours, drunk driving illegals kill 13 more a day... If the liberals get their way granting immunity to illegal aliens... health care costs to taxpayers will go up by another $2.6 Trillion... with no increase in benefits to the folks paying all the additional tax…

Government Regulation of Health Care Industry - “A far more accurate “bottom-up” approach suggests that the total cost of health services regulation exceeds $339.2 billion. This figure takes into account regulation of health facilities, health professionals, health insurance, drugs and medical devices, and the medical tort system, including the costs of defensive medicine. Moreover, this approach allows for a calculation of some important tangible benefits of regulation. Yet even after subtracting $170.1 billion in benefits, the net burden of health services regulation is considerable, amounting to $169.1 billion annually. In other words, the costs of health services regulation outweigh benefits by two-to-one and cost the average household over $1,500 per year.

The high cost of health services regulation is responsible for more than seven million Americans lacking health insurance, or one in six of the average daily uninsured. Moreover, 4,000 more Americans die every year from costs associated with health services regulation (22,000) than from lack of health insurance (18,000). The annual net cost of health services regulation dwarfs other costs imposed by government intervention in the health care sector. This cost exceeds annual consumer expenditures on gasoline and oil in the United States and is twice the size of the annual output of the motion picture and sound recording industries.” - CATO Institute Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

Medical Technology – This is one of the few areas where the United States still holds a clear advantage over the rest of the world… The question used to be how to control costs without sacrificing innovation that saves so many more lives.
Medical technology spending comprised about 20 percent of the growth in health-care costs for the last five years, and now exceeds $200 billion annually.

I say “used to be” as unfortunately the messiah wants to stifle this entrepreneurial advantage with government grants loaded with more red tape than carter’s little liver pills.

Let’s save the attack on the big pharmaceutical firms and their impact on health care costs for another day… I suspect we’ll have some agreement here.

In conclusion it would appear that Tort Reform, Deportation of Illegal Aliens, and Limiting Government Regulations would make health care medical plans more affordable… Hmm… on second thought, deporting tort lawyers might help too.

Take care,

V/R, Batch

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monty

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #67 - Mar 12^th, 2009 at 9:00pm

Batch wrote on Mar 12^th, 2009 at 10:30am:

You don't recall? That because you probably never heard about it. Doesn't mean it isn't happening. And I was talking about health insurance companies, not hospitals.

I have close friends that worked for a major health insurance company, and close friends that still do - you have heard of this company, cause it is one of the biggies. The company has sky boxes at the local NFL franchise, where the big-wigs schmooze each other. They recently cut paid holiday for the call center workers to save $2 million, and then gave another $2 million bonus to the CEO. They told the call center workers not to get demoralized - after all, they still have jobs. Then they started outsourcing those jobs to Mexico and India. This company spends millions advertising on TV and mailing out expensive glossy magazines to people that they insure ... 99% of which are thrown away unread. At the end of the day, they charge people a dollar for health care, and give them 50 cents worth. Just like the other health insurance companies do, which leads to the US paying more and getting less.

« Last Edit: Mar 12^th, 2009 at 9:02pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Charlie

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #68 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 10:37am

If you ask Canadians, especially, if they would give up their system for ours, the answer is: "No, no, no." The same goes for Europe, especially Sweden. In Canada and Britain, you are allowed to pay for "better" or faster service. For the polls that state otherwise, it's true that drug companies look for rare exceptions and have even paid for results that are favorable to them and lie about the numbers.

Our service here is getting crappy anyway. Too much paperwork and specialists treating patients as sources of income rather than in need of serious treatment. (I have direct experience with this with ridiculous and unnecessary testing. It's a crime)

Bring on socialized medicine! Shocked

Charlie

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #69 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 12:25pm

Batch wrote on Mar 12^th, 2009 at 10:30am:

<snip>

The cost of Medical Technology...

<snip>

Medical Technology – This is one of the few areas where the United States still holds a clear advantage over the rest of the world… The question used to be how to control costs without sacrificing innovation that saves so many more lives.
Medical technology spending comprised about 20 percent of the growth in health-care costs for the last five years, and now exceeds $200 billion annually.

<snip>

Japan's GDP towards Health care is 8% that is nearly half of what the USA pays.

Japan has the longest life expectancy and the infant mortality rate is lower than that of the USA

They utilize Socialized insurance. 80% of their hospitals are private which is greater than that in the USA and 80% of their doctors have private practice.

As far as technology goes they have come up with ways to take an MRI for $98.00 as opposed to $1,200.00 that we pay in the USA. It seems they use technology to pass on the benefit and saving to the consumer there... we have a tendency to use technology to make a few people wealthy here.

We are supposed to be God Fearing Humanitarians... sadly that is often confused with, Let's see how many pieces of paper we can accumulate with the words "In God We Trust" emblazoned on it... "I think some people are under the impression that God finds favor on those who have accumulated the most of these little pieces of paper.

...and as far as the illegal immigrants go... I know personally quite a few conservatives that have absolutely no problem... hiring them for a lesser wage. I guess they think they're doing us a favor. Wrong... they're doing their wallet a favor.

with warm regards,
Tony

« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2009 at 12:27pm by Artonio »

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monty

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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #70 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 1:44pm

Batch wrote on Mar 12^th, 2009 at 10:30am:

Tort System Costs - The U.S. tort system cost $252 billion in 2007, which translates to $835 per person or $9 per person more than in 2006. cbo

Yes, but you mislead. That number is for the entire tort system - medical malpractice is a minority of that. Torts include:

Auto Accidents - a third of all tort activity. When that teenager rear ended me, it cost $2000 to fix my car. If the insurance companies can agree on who pays, no tort. If they can't agree, or if the person who hit me didn't have insurance, a tort is needed. If that kid had seriously injured or killed me, it could have generated several million dollars of tort damages. Is that something that should be outlawed? Maybe the people that are paralyzed from a car collision should be told to stop faking it and go get a job, instead of being a burden to society for the rest of their lives?

Asbestos - companies that knowingly exposed workers to deadly asbestos are now paying for it. Good thing. It also encourages other companies to not act in the same way.

Commercial torts - protection of trademarks, copyright, patents, and other intellectual property. More often than not, this is a corporation suing a corporation or individual.

Tobacco - another multibillion tort. The most recent big case demonstrated that the industry they developed 'light' cigarettes to persuade smokers to keep smoking, even though the tobacco industry knew that these did not lower the risks.

Corporate corruption - When execs illegally backdate options and skim money, the remedy is tort action. When Enron collapsed, a tort was necessary to try and recover some of the lost billions. Ever hear of Bernie Madoff? Exposing his fraud will generate a wee bit of tort activity. Does it bother you that companies sometimes conspire to fix prices and charge you more money? Tort may be needed to recover damages and set penalties.

Medical device and prescription drug litigation - when companies conceal studies showing a danger and people are injured or die, the only way to recover damages is a lawsuit. More tort activity.

Medical malpractice - another area where tort is necessary. Why should an incompetent doctor not be held responsible if he is negligent and injures or kills someone??

There is a movement to turn tort into a bad word. Won't work. A tort is defense against certain types of action: Negligence, intentional harm to a person, intentional harm to tangible property, strict liability, nuisance, harm to economic interests, and harm to intangible property interests. If you want to protect yourself against such damages, you need the ability to file a tort lawsuit.

I would argue that tort reform is needed to increase (at least initially) the number of lawsuits related to medical care. Under current law, HMOs are not accountable for bad decisions that injure or kill people:

Quote:

The U.S. Supreme Court nullifies state laws that hold health plans legally responsible when they make medical-necessity decisions that overrule the best judgment of a beneficiary's physician.

The patients' rights movement suffered a severe setback last month when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled unanimously that patients do not have a right to sue their HMO in state court, even if they suffered harm as the result of a decision the HMO made about their medical care.

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« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:09pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #71 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 1:51pm Charlie wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 10:37am: If you ask Canadians, especially, if they would give up their system for ours, the answer is: "No, no, no." Let's ask the Canadians here. What say you, eh?
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Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #72 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:07pm

Brew wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 1:51pm:

Charlie wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 10:37am:

If you ask Canadians, especially, if they would give up their system for ours, the answer is: "No, no, no."

Let's ask the Canadians here.

What say you, eh?

I'd also like to hear how people from Canada as well as other countries feel about their Healthcare.

with warm regards,
Tony

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Reply #73 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:25pm

Quote:

...and as far as the illegal immigrants go... I know personally quite a few conservatives that have absolutely no problem... hiring them for a lesser wage. I guess they think they're doing us a favor. Wrong... they're doing their wallet a favor.

The illegals are leftovers from FDR's Bracero Program, to bring Mexican field workers north of the border to fill in for the field workers gone off to fight WWII.

« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:27pm by Bob P »

Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron. "SHUT UP HUB!"

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Reply #74 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:49pm

Bob P wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:25pm:

Quote:

The illegals are leftovers from FDR's Bracero Program, to bring Mexican field workers north of the border to fill in for the field workers gone off to fight WWII.

... wouldn't that make them a little too old to be working the fields today?

Immigration laws are immigration laws. When my parents came to this country in the '20s through ellis island... they had to follow the laws. They had to become naturalized through a series of processes. I agree that this should still be the case.

I find it confusing though when a high percentage of the very people who scream loudest about what a drain the illegals are on or economy and health care actively ~~exploit~~ utilize them to line their own coffers.

with warm regards,
Tony

For in our hands lies the ability to shape our world for good or for ill. President Barack Obama

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