Click this link to read a post I like on the clusterheadaches.com message board...

monty CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Posts: 1056 The Swamp, Florida	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #75 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:58pm According to this article in American Heritage, illegal immigration was invented by Chester Arthur in 1882. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or
Back to top	The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do. IP Logged

MJ

CH.com Hall of Famer

Offline

Posts: 1205
x1||USA|usa|299|85|MN
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #76 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 3:28pm

Artonio wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 2:07pm:

Brew wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 1:51pm:

Charlie wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 10:37am:

If you ask Canadians, especially, if they would give up their system for ours, the answer is: "No, no, no."

Let's ask the Canadians here.

What say you, eh?

I'd also like to hear how people from Canada as well as other countries feel about their Healthcare.

with warm regards,
Tony

As long as your discussing insurance and health care costs.
A subject close to me.

Its tough for others to make a comparison without some data.
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

I think this site has erred on the very conservative side.

I also think that unless someone has to cover there own health ins. costs its pretty tough to understand the situation fully.
If you have corporate or government insurances, military care or welfare assistance one cant know the extent of the problem.

As the operator of a smaller business:
The coverage for my family of 7 wich is through 2 different insurance providers to get the best current coverage runs at 1,560.00 dollars per month or $18,720 per year.
We have a 3000.00 dollar deduction on mine and 1500 each for the kids and wife. So before any payout from the insurance company in a given year we have to spend $30,720.00, that is just under the average wages in this country. We have seen an increase in cost every year amounting to some 5-6%
We have met our deductions 3 years running. We have no dental or optical care and that easily runs up another 6-10k per year.
The policies have a cap of 1 million and 2 mill for me. After that its all out of pocket. In the event of a catastophic illness we be F---ed

Oh but we can see whatever docs we want.

So on health care its easy to understand why so many in this country cant even begin to afford quality or any kind of health care for that matter. Especially among the unemployed or self employed.

I have it good compared to many I have talked with.

with less than 20 our employess must contribute a substantial sum to get insurance or we dont provide, fortunately many of their partners are employed by governmental associations, state and schools, where they get free coverage with minimal deductions.

If the current administration can find a way out of this health care mess at any cost I am 100% for it. GO OBAMA and company.

HEALTH CARE FOR ALL!!!!!!!!! I really care not so much about any other political issue out there, except bringing business back to America. Controlling health care costs will help.

Our K-12 education is socialized. One would think at the least our children could get the health care they need. A family has to make well over 80k to live anymore and remain healthy in the US. on their own, or under 16K to get assistance.

Back to top

MJ

IP Logged

Bob P CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Shut up Bob! Posts: 4573 Clio,California Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #77 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 5:14pm Quote: According to this article in American Heritage, illegal immigration was invented by Chester Arthur in 1882. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or . Chester may have been the first illegal immigrant but FDR opened the flood gates.
Back to top	Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron. "SHUT UP HUB!" IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #78 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 6:40pm

Well… There you go again Monty… Spin away from the tort facts... And I knew about the corporate sponsored sky-boxes… I purposely left them out of my response as bait… and you jumped on it like a hawk on a June bug…

I’ve really got to thank you for being such a great straight man and for being so honest in bringing out two of the most deeply rooted pillars of the liberal mantra… Demonizing Big Corporations and The Destruction of Capitalism.

Liberals demonize big business and the managers who run them for the simple reason that they can’t control them. Liberals despise capitalism for the same reason and they think their socialist ways of running government are more efficient so they should be applied to the publicly held business corporations as well. Liberals must be in control…

That’s the fundamental tenet of Socialism, Fascism, and Marxism. These ideologies profess that people should have the power not big business who use the principals capitalism and a free market… but the liberal elite thinkers who know better must lead the people.

The liberal elite know best who the evil capitalists are that make people work for the big corporations that don’t pay people enough money… That’s why liberals want to empower the unions… to make sure the people get paid more money for their work instead of letting free market forces determine the wage. Above all, the liberal elite want to destroy capitalism and the evil CEOs who run these big corporations.

Please don’t get me wrong, I’m just as passionate as you are in ferreting out white-collar corruption and I’m relieved to see Madoff is finally in jail for keeps. His theft of over $65 Billion dollars has permanently damaged the lives of thousands of investors including major retirement funds and charities that serve hundreds of thousands of people.

Madoff’s was the single most costly white-collar crime in the history of the stock market and he’ll stay in prison for the rest of his life. I’m sure you’ll agree with me that all white-collar criminals should be treated the same way. Moreover, I think you’ll also agree that the Justice department should go after Madoff’s wife and the rest of his family for aiding and abetting him during this crime. They are just as guilty as a bank robber’s getaway driver, so they should be stripped of their ill-gotten gains from Madoff’s Ponzi scheme and sent to prison as well.

So let’s get back to those evil publicly owned health care corporations and the evil capitalists who run them that you feel are so inefficient and so crass as to outsource their labor and only give policy holders fifty cents worth of care for every dollar paid in health care insurance premiums…

Why did these evil health care corporations outsource so many positions overseas? The answer is simple. Big government taxes these health care corporations at the highest corporate tax rate in the world… 35%, and big government wants to enact even more tax through Cap and Trade, and that doesn’t include the state and local taxes these evil health care corporations must pay.

In order to stay in business, these healthcare corporations must reduce labor costs by outsourcing the labor off shore in order to operate at a profit and not go out of business… That my friend, is Business Administration 101…

Have you called the airlines lately and spoken to someone in India… How about calling Microsoft tech support? Hmm answered in India too… Dell Computer or HP? India… I’m confident you can call just about any major US based corporation and find some of their support has been outsourced off shore for the same reason… These corporations want to stay in business and not go into bankruptcy like GM or Chrysler will be forced to because they let the unions set the extravagant wages, retirement, and health care benefits.

So let’s get back to the health care policyholder that only gets 50 cents worth of health care out of every dollar paid for health insurance… Right away we can see that 35 cents worth of the health care he didn’t get for his dollar went to the federal government in the form of corporate income tax. Another 5 to 7 cents went to State and local corporate income tax… Hmmm… Now that evil health care corporation is down to 8 to 10 cents profit on every dollar it earned in sales of medical insurance premiums…

In reality, these evil health care corporations get to keep even less in profit… Let’s take the big dog and most evil of all the publicly traded managed health care corporations, UnitedHealth Group (UNH). As you can see from the financial chart below, UNH managed a net profit margin of 3.67%

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

Wow… The evil owners of UNH made $81.19 Billion dollars in total sales, but the federal government came along and took $28.42 Billion dollars in corporate tax off the top… And the State and local tax collectors took another $4 Billion dollars. Somewhere in there, the UNH management had to pay for their employees and all the other overhead costs… and of course they had to pay for the medical procedures and medications the policyholder needed… When all is said and done, UNH got to keep $2.98 Billion dollars in profit… Or did they? Well not exactly…

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

As you can see from the chart above, as a publicly traded managed health care corporation it’s the shareholders that own 99% of UNH… The “insiders” that include members of the UNH board of directors, CEO, COO, CFO and other corporate officers own 1%. So who really owns UNH? Well, as you can see the biggest shareholders are institutional investors and mutual funds…

And who are these institutions… why these are the firms that manage the retirement funds, 401k, and IRAs that the people expect to draw on after they retire because they know they can’t live on Social Security… Hmmm interesting… And who owns the mutual funds??? Why the people do… At least the people who worked for a living and saved their money so they could invest in UNH or a mutual fund…

BTW… If you check the 10 Largest Publicly Traded Managed Care Companies at the following link and look up their financial statements, you’ll find they all operate with around a 4% profit margin.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

So let’s get this straight… The people that earned the money and took the risk of investing it either directly in UNH, or a mutual fund… only to have the federal government that takes no risks, come along and tax the dividends from UNH or the mutual funds as regular income, and then the federal government taxes any profits from the sales of shares in either as capital gains at the present rate of 15%... So the federal government gets to eat into the profits too…

But wait… The Marxist trained community organizer in the White House thinks a 15% capital gains tax rate is too low… He wants to take more money from the people who invested in UNH… He wants to raise the capital gains tax to 20% and take the extra tax revenue he takes from the UNH investors and give it to other people who don’t work and illegal aliens so he can redistribute wealth… or use it to make a down payment on Universal Health Care… How egalitarian… Well no… that’s actually Socialism, Fascism, or Marxism depending on how you see it… but it sure as hell isn’t Capitalism.

So how does the Marxist trained community organizer in the White House plan to do that without raising any “new tax” on people earning less than $250,000 as he promised… Simple… he tells princess Pelosi and her politburo to let the Bush tax cuts on an “old tax” expire at the end of 2010… and that lets the anointed one hold his nose high and claim he’s kept his campaign promise… What a clever devil… How honorable…

BTW, if you want to see what letting the Bush tax cuts expire will cost you in increased capital gains tax… go to the following link, but remember that’s not the only tax cut that expires:

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

Ah… You probably thought I forgot about the sky-box and all the slick glossy flyers the evil health care corporation purchased… Well that’s called advertising… You see in a free market where evil health care corporations compete with each other for customers… (and the operable word here is competition), the company that offers the best health care plan at the lowest price gets the most clients… That’s if they’re able to advertise that advantage to potential buyers of their health care services.

A lot of people owe their jobs to these advertising costs… The Ad firm, the printers, all the good people that work at the stadium cleaning and servicing the sky-box… And you want to put all these good people out of work because you don’t think the evil health care corporation should be allowed to advertise?

Now you claim that government can provide health care more efficiently, so lets look at the Veterans Administration. This is health care run by the federal government… According to their own report, the VA received appropriations of $92.7 Billion dollars in 2008. They also had, collections totaling $2.4 billion in 2008. Their own report also states that VA facilities treated a total of 5,500,000 patients in 2008. Doing the simple math…

($95.1 Billion VA Cost/5.5 million patients treated at all VA facilities)…

Well… that works out to an equivalent insurance cost per year, per VA patient of $17,290. That’s not very efficient when you compare it to the average annual cost of $7900* per person in managed health care premiums paid to the evil publicly owned health care corporations… Again, I suggest you talk with any patient treated at the nearest VA facility and ask them what they thought of the health care they received…

* The National Coalition on Health Care Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

Getting back to the evil CEOs who cheat their people and the share holders who own their publicly traded corporations…

What would you say should be done with an evil CEO of a failing corporation that lost over $21 billion that also handed out over $3 Billion dollars in bonuses a week before being taken over by another corporation that received $24 Billion in bailout money? Someone should go to jail… Right?

And how about another evil CEO and two other evil senior officers that cooked the accounting books to show a significantly higher profit than an actual loss so they could make their performance goals and be paid handsome bonuses?

What should be done to that evil CEO who cooked the books in order to receive a total compensation of $91.1 million that including $52.6 million in bonuses for doing this; and his CFO who earned $30.8 million that including $16.8 million in bonuses who helped him; and a third officer who received $7.3 million, of which some $3.5 million was bonus money, who also helped?

I think you’ll agree with me, these three criminals should be brought to trial, and if found guilty, they should be stripped of the nearly $130 Million in ill-gotten gains and be sent to prison like Madoff… Right? That would be justice wouldn’t it?

Well… not so fast. What if these last three evil capitalists got off with just a kiss… That would be a travesty of justice and I’m sure that like me, you would want more punitive action taken against these evil corporate capitalists and white-collar criminals.

But what if one of the evil corporate capitalists was none other than Franklin Raines, the CEO of Fannie Mae from 1998 to 2004 who directed the purchase of over half of the toxic subprime loans to meet his bonus quota… What if this subprime experiment in social engineering resulted in the largest financial crisis in the history of the world… and that this crisis has already cost us over $2 Trillion dollars… not to mention the loss of half our 401k and IRAs

And what if Rains’ getaway drivers were none other than Senator Chris Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank… Chairman of two most powerful housing and banking committees charged with the responsibility to oversee the operation of Fannie Mae…

And what if Raines made political contributions to these two… And what if the top three recipients of his political contributions were Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, and none other than the Marxist trained community organizer now in the White House?

Think about it… Think about honor, principals, and values… Think about what’s best for our great Nation… Then Act!

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2009 at 7:39pm by Batch »

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

Artonio

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

I Love

Posts: 604
New Castle, Pa
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #79 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 7:32pm

I guess it all boils down to this... is health care a human right or should someone make a profit from human suffering. Is it reasonable to have people refused healthcare because of the bottom line? Should the citizens of this great country be sacrificed, disregarded and left to die because a corporation finds it to be more cost effective to pursue the best business plan?

That is the equivalent to a self imposed spontaneous abortion IMO. What would one think of a pregnant woman who refuses to feed herself because she would rather buy the latest fashion... or stock-pile her money away?

I'd imagine that one would ask if she were sane... one certainly would be compelled to act on behalf of the un-born child.

I really don't see how in a civilized world any health care should be "for profit" . I also believe steps should be taken with every aspect of the healthcare industry to cap costs, remove taxes, and offer subsidized education.

Variations on this theme seems to work in other in countries to a lesser or greater extent.

After health is maintained and the key focus... the population will then flourish... with their vim and vigor... they can skip along the malls and markets shopping their little hearts out.

just a thought.

with warm regards,
Tony

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2009 at 7:35pm by Artonio »

For in our hands lies the ability to shape our world for good or for ill. President Barack Obama

IP Logged

cavalier Ex Member	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #80 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 8:23pm Has 24 got keefer in it, have'nt watched it to comment but it must be close to your heart, or soul!
Back to top	IP Logged

Click Here to visit the CH.com Facebook page!

Batch CH.com Alumnus Offline Control The Beast With O2 & D3 You Must Posts: 3708 Bremerton, WA Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #81 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 9:16pm Yuppers
Back to top	You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there IP Logged

monty

CH.com Hall of Famer

Offline

Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #82 - Mar 13^th, 2009 at 9:42pm

Batch wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 6:40pm:

Why did these evil health care corporations outsource so many positions overseas? The answer is simple. Big government taxes these health care corporations at the highest corporate tax rate in the world…

Batch - again you have typed on your keyboard, and again the over-sized letters that came out demonstrate that you have no grasp of the truth. You retreat to simplistic cliches and ideological hyperbole. The company that has sport boxes in the stadiums and is outsourcing jobs doesn't pay any taxes!! So how is big government to blame for all the things that they do? It is officially a non-profit corporation, but it still manages to pay its executives millions and treat the average person like shit. It is still moving jobs overseas. You can't blame government for that. Wait, you can, because you don't need to connect your rhetoric to reality.

And how do you use your theories of "Big Government = Evil; Private Sector=Good" to explain the situation MJ described?? Or my friend who applied to 11 insurance companies and was denied 11 times because his a doctor saw a suspicious mole and said "It's probably nothing, but lets take it off to be safe." Every company my friend applied to said that since the doctor didn't do a biopsy, he couldn't prove he didn't have skin cancer and should not get coverage.

Here's a Econ 101 term for you: "market failure." It occurs when allocation of goods and services by the market are markedly sub-optimal. That's what we have with health insurance today. If the market was working, people and employers wouldn't want to change it.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2009 at 9:50pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

IP Logged

purpleydog

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Posts: 2732

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #83 - Mar 14^th, 2009 at 1:01pm

Quote:

Now you claim that government can provide health care more efficiently, so lets look at the Veterans Administration. This is health care run by the federal government… According to their own report, the VA received appropriations of $92.7 Billion dollars in 2008. They also had, collections totaling $2.4 billion in 2008. Their own report also states that VA facilities treated a total of 5,500,000 patients in 2008. Doing the simple math…

($95.1 Billion VA Cost/5.5 million patients treated at all VA facilities)…

Well… that works out to an equivalent insurance cost per year, per VA patient of $17,290. That’s not very efficient when you compare it to the average annual cost of $7900* per person in managed health care premiums paid to the evil publicly owned health care corporations… Again, I suggest you talk with any patient treated at the nearest VA facility and ask them what they thought of the health care they received…

Batch, you have your numbers wrong. Looking at the link you provided, Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

, total health expenditures in the year 2007 was $7900.00 per person, or $2.4 TRILLION. This isn't insurance premiums. It doesn't say how many people were treated, so the 5.5 million people treated at the VA isn't really a good comparison. Although, I bet it (people being treated who have insurance) was way more than that. ETA... I did the simple math (I didn't check it before), and it turns out that $95.1 Billion divided by 5,500,000 people comes out to $172.90 each. Edited AGAIN for the math. Batch was right. There are a lot of zeroes in billions, and I didn't put in enough.

"In 2008, employer health insurance premiums increased by 5.0 percent – two times the rate of inflation. The annual premium for an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $12,700. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,700."

This doesn't include what the employer paid. You still want to compare it to what the average COST per patient is at the VA? You mean actual costs for healthcare, right, or did you get the two distinctly different figures confused? Currently, according to your link, the average yearly premium paid by the worker for a family of 4 is more than a full time minimum wage job. No wonder people can't afford health insurance.

And asking our vets about the quality of health care received at a VA facility, I suppose you could ask any insured person the same question. Either it sucks, or it doesn't. In my experience, it depends on the facility... for either.

Quote:

The liberal elite know best who the evil capitalists are that make people work for the big corporations that don’t pay people enough money… That’s why liberals want to empower the unions… to make sure the people get paid more money for their work instead of letting free market forces determine the wage.

Part of the reason we have skilled trades, is because of the labor unions. The unions fight for a fair wage, they fight for health care, they train the people in their trades. They try to keep jobs in this country. And because of the trade unions, the people who belong to them make a halfway decent living. They don't have to worry about living at the poverty level with 3 kids to support. They are in a retirement plan. They have health insurance. These people aren't getting rich. Far from it. These people are known to you as the working class.

Otherwise, the people left over making minimum wage can't afford insurance. How will that affect the profitability of health care?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2009 at 6:28pm by purpleydog »

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

IP Logged

Kevin_M

CH.com Sponsor

Offline

withered branches grow
green again.

Posts: 8754
Michigan, USA
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #84 - Mar 14^th, 2009 at 4:05pm

Batch wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 6:40pm:

UNH made $81.19 Billion dollars in total sales, but the federal government came along and took $28.42 Billion dollars in corporate tax off the top…

Batch,

I seem to be of the impression that profits are taxed, not total revenue. Being that income before taxes for UNH in 2008 was $4.624 billion, and after tax income was $2.977 billion, that would leave taxes paid of $1.647 billion, which is 35% of $4.624 billion.

Could you please reconcile this figure with the corporate taxes you say they paid of $28.42 billion?

Because...

Batch wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 6:40pm:

So let’s get back to the health care policyholder that only gets 50 cents worth of health care out of every dollar paid for health insurance… Right away we can see that 35 cents worth of the health care he didn’t get for his dollar went to the federal government in the form of corporate income tax.

if your figure is incorrect, then this information given is also incorrect.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2009 at 4:07pm by Kevin_M »

IP Logged

Opus

CH.com Hall of Famer

Offline

"We have met the enemy...
and he is us"

Posts: 2746
Sidney,NY USA
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #85 - Mar 14^th, 2009 at 9:09pm

purpleydog wrote on Mar 14^th, 2009 at 1:01pm:

Part of the reason we have skilled trades, is because of the labor unions. The unions fight for a fair wage, they fight for health care, they train the people in their trades. They try to keep jobs in this country. And because of the trade unions, the people who belong to them make a halfway decent living. They don't have to worry about living at the poverty level with 3 kids to support. They are in a retirement plan. They have health insurance. These people aren't getting rich. Far from it. These people are known to you as the working class.

Thanks Chris, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Paul Smiley

Back to top

I no longer post because no one cares what I say.

IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #86 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 10:20am

monty wrote

Mar 13^th, 2009, 9:42pm
Quote:

Batch - again you have typed on your keyboard, and again the over-sized letters that came out demonstrate that you have no grasp of the truth.

There you go again Monty... More spin, redirection, obfuscation, and fear-mongering...

The truth about liberal criminals is hard to take isn't it? I guess you and Maxine Waters are of like mind... Franklin Raines is the liberal’s hero for buying half the existing subprime loans that have destroyed Fannie May and forced it into government hands, and so are Dodd and Frank for making this experiment in social engineering possible at a cost of over $2 Trillion dollars. How’s that for truth? It’s also a matter of record.

It’s amazing how they’ve kept themselves out of jail… It appears the law and justice don’t apply when liberals commit crimes… That must be why we have a tax cheat as the Secretary of the Treasury and head of the IRS in TurboTax Geithner… (another matter of record) And, as it appears there are crooks in both the private sector and in government… evil isn’t exclusive.

As far as the health care debate goes…. There’s also no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to health care… Somebody has to pay the bill. Even liberals know that… You pay for what you get… That is unless you can legislate everyone else to pay for your health care when nobody is looking...

Affordable health care a complex issue, but it can be solved. The real question is the fundamental principals and ideologies upon which we base the solution. On one hand we have the liberals who want to take us to a socialist state that trashes the Constitution and takes away freedoms. On the other we have the conservatives who want to use a free market approach that upholds the fundamental principals, rights and freedoms laid down in the Constitution.

If you want to come to the table to work on that solution, then we check our guns at the door and sit under one or the other of two big signs that lets all concerned know our allegiance and goals…

One sign reads “I believe in the principals and freedoms of democracy laid down by our Nation’s founding fathers in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.”

The other sign reads “I believe in the principals of Socialism and I want the United States to be under Socialist rule.”

MJ brings up some good empirical examples on health care costs. Although I disagree with his concluding solution, I can see from his viewpoint where more affordable health care insurance is clearly desirable. We all want that. I happen to think this can be accomplished without committing to Universal health care.

My sister works in a large hospital in Long Beach, CA in the insurance office so is very familiar with the different premium rates and the common problems many face. She’s been to several seminars on managed health care and suggested the National Coalition on Health Care figure I used in the previous post… The $7900 annual cost is an average for individual coverage as costs vary considerably from state to state. The average cost for a family of four is $12,700.

For the purpose of my argument in comparing the relative efficiencies as a function of cost between government and private managed health care, MJ’s figures are more than adequate and they still make my point. Government run health care is still less efficient and more expensive.

My family owned and ran a small business that delivered gasoline and heating oil for over 40 years so I also understand MJ’s situation. Between the Teamster’s Union and the Sheet Metal Workers Union, we were forced to pay union sponsored health care premiums that cost twice what we paid for our own coverage and we owned the company.

These costs made capital improvements all but impossible for many years. As a result, we had the oldest delivery trucks in the area. The only way we could make ends meet was to provide the very best service and have non-union family member/owners make deliveries after the union drivers clocked out for the day and on weekends. We always had a delivery truck staged at home and when the business phone rang at home after normal business hours… one of us ran out of the house jumped in the truck and made the delivery. I went on several dates in high school in one of our delivery trucks. It was always a hoot to pull up to the local A&W to order burgers & fries.

You see I am willing to debate the issue of Universal Health Care, but the liberal elite in congress don’t want that debate. They think this is too important a decision for the people to make so they found it necessary to hide that legislation that makes it law in a Trojan Horse bill called the ARRA Stimulus Act that nobody could read before they voted.

I see it as just the opposite… I think the issue of Universal Health Care is too important for the idiots in Congress to have a say… After all, if liberals can empower women with the freedom of choice to abort over 50 million babies before they could be born, why can’t this same freedom of choice be granted to the people so they can decide for themselves on the type of health care they want. Monty… You’re not going to tell me that the freedom of choice is a right that liberals grant on a selective basis are you?

Nobody gets turned away from an ER… even illegal aliens get treated and few ever pay… that is unless they tried to go to the University of Chicago Medical Center where David Axelrod and Michelle Obama cooked up a plan that steered patients who don’t have private insurance — primarily poor, black people — to other health care facilities… I got that from several RNs and Doctors at NIH… All with over 25 years experience in government and private hospitals…

Given the health care experience and examples set by FLOTUS… you better be careful in what you wish for in Universal Health Care…

You bring up a good point in "market failure.” When a company delivers goods or services to the market with poor quality and value, people don’t buy them… and when there are no sales, the company goes out of business. That’s free market capitalism at it’s finest. Unfortunately from Political Science 101… when a government program fails… the people who work for a living just have to keep paying more tax for it…

That’s kind of like the war on poverty… It’s been 45 years of mostly liberal controlled congress since Johnson declared war on poverty… and we still haven’t won… yet that war has cost taxpayers over $10 Trillion dollars and the liberals don’t even have an exit strategy.

Oh yes… The over-sized letters… There’s a simple explanation and it’s not for emphasis… I’m blind in one eye and although I’ve 20/20 vision in the good eye, that’s only at distance. The over-sized letters make it easier for me make sure I address points properly… BTW… Vision in the good eye is still sharp enough to spot liberal spin and socialist propaganda… and it won’t go unchallenged…

Kevin_M, Regarding my UNH calculation… You’re right, I screwed the pooch. However in looking at the Jan 2009 SEC filings by UNH it appears they delivered 82 cents worth of MEDICAL COSTS on each dollar of medical insurance PREMIUMS paid… That’s even better than the 50 cents on the dollar we used to start this part of the thread.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

I don’t know about you but I think this is exactly the kind of dialog we need. Lets try to measure apples to apples on the overall cost for starters as an objective measurement of comparing the relative efficiencies between government and private health care.

I don’t have a good answer on comparing the relative worth of the actual health care as delivered to the recipient, as that would appear to be far more subjective in nature. Having said that, let’s see if such a measure exists. The UNH SEC filing is at the following link.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

Take care,

V/R, Batch

Correction 2: Medical Tort Costs for 2008 = $30.4 Billion – CBO

Back to top

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

HSJones

Locked
Offline

I Love CH.com!

Posts: 14

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #87 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:05am

Every American should get health care, no matter whether they are rich or poor. I would rather have the "evil" socialized medical system, as virutally all of western Europe has than the system that we now have, which is no system. By the way, haven't you noticed that the value of the dollar has sunk to all time lows against the Euro? Have you ever lived or even visited Europe? The people live well and don't have to worry about losing their apartment or house if the major earner gets seriously ill and the kids don't go hungry. It seems that you would rather have high company profits than healthy people. One more thing: PLEASE stop writing in bold case letters, it hurts the eyes. Thanks. And please stop writing such long posts, they are really boring-learn to edit and not just copy from whomever has taken over from the John Birch Society. Thanks again. Wink

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:09am by HSJones »

IP Logged

Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #88 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:25am HSJones wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:05am: One more thing: PLEASE stop writing in bold case letters, it hurts the eyes. Thanks. And please stop writing such long posts, they are really boring-learn to edit and not just copy from whomever has taken over from the John Birch Society. I disagree. Quote: Thanks again. I agree.
Back to top	"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand IP Logged

Click Here to visit the CH.com Facebook page!

Marc

Ex Member

Gender:

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #89 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 12:02pm

Brew wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:25am:

HSJones wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:05am:

One more thing: PLEASE stop writing in bold case letters, it hurts the eyes. Thanks. And please stop writing such long posts, they are really boring-learn to edit and not just copy from whomever has taken over from the John Birch Society.

I disagree.

Quote:

Thanks again. Wink

I agree.

And I agree with you, Sir - but I'm pulling out of these posts. Batch is wasting his time and effort.

In today's America, people who are either unwilling or unable to earn what they feel that they deserve, will demand to take it from others who have it.

Respectfully,
Marc

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 15^th, 2009 at 12:17pm by Marc »

IP Logged

Batch

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Control The Beast With
O2 & D3 You Must

Posts: 3708
Bremerton, WA
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #90 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 2:25pm

HSJ,

Welcome to CH.com! You bring up a good point that probably needs to be clarified... I've never said people should go without health care. Moreover, I'm of the opinion that health care can be made available to all "US citizens" without incurring the terrible expense of Government run Universal Health Care.

The cost of Government run Universal Health Care once added to existing government spending, will add Trillions of dollars to the present 40% of our GDP now spent by big government and that will put us ahead of the European average at 47% of their GDP going to government. On cost alone that will make us more socialist than most of the countries in Western Europe. That level of horrific spending will also cause the value of our dollar to drop like a rock.

Regarding my travels... With 24 years Naval Service, I've had the opportunity to travel all over the Western Pacific, East Asia, the Middle East, and Europe.

I was stationed in Japan with my family living there for nearly 4 years while I was flying fighters off the Carrier USS Midway so I've had the opportunity to visit and in some cases fly over Japan, South Korea, South and North Vietnam, the Philippines, Australia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Pakistan, and Iran (before they held our embassy folks hostage).

After I retired from the Navy , I spent the next 15 years traveling all over the world as a communications engineer with working visits up and down the Amazon to Brazil, Colombia, and Peru. I also added working trips to the UK, Germany, the BENELUX, Switzerland, Sweden, and Norway.

On balance, I found our system of government far better than in any country I've visited and I had just about everyone I spoke with on this topic in agreement telling me the same thing. As my work frequently involved visits to US embassies, I also found there were a lot of good people willing to wait in line to become US citizens if that's any measure.

I agree my posts are too lengthy... I'll try to overcome my urge to shoot into a target rich environment.

Sorry if my visual impairment causes you grief... I'm zoomed into the max my browser permits... Perhaps you can zoom out with cntl (-). I've dialed it down a notch and picked up some new 4x cheaters...

Take care and again, Welcome to CH.com

V/R, Batch

Back to top

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

IP Logged

Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #91 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 2:42pm Batch - By changing your font style, I believe you have acquiesced too easily and too soon. When I see that big, bold typeface, I know I'm about to read something of substance. I vote no. Don't do it. "Don't go changin' to try to please me. Don't change the color of your ~~scalp~~ hair." We want size 18. We want size 18.
Back to top	"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand IP Logged

wildhaus

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

Posts: 860
Wildhaus|Switzerland
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #92 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 3:10pm

HSJones wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 11:05am:

PLEASE stop writing in bold case letters, it hurts the eyes. Thanks. And please stop writing such long posts, they are really boring

So Pete if I ask you to become a Socialist flame bayonet will reciprocate?

as fast as you did for the request above.....

It will make life, some what boring for Monty..... and deny me an interesting and educational discussion.....

So Pete, as Brew posted "Don't go changin' "

Michael

Back to top

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

IP Logged

monty

CH.com Hall of Famer

Offline

Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #93 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 4:07pm

Batch wrote on Mar 15^th, 2009 at 10:20am:

Oh yes… The over-sized letters… There’s a simple explanation and it’s not for emphasis… I’m blind in one eye and although I’ve 20/20 vision in the good eye, that’s only at distance. The over-sized letters make it easier for me make sure I address points properly…

Apologies - I don't know how I got the idea that you were yelling. Wink

Do you use Firefox? That browser has a function where you can increase the size of text as big as you need. Just hit ctrl and + at the same time, as many times as you need to get things pleasantly re-sized. This has a big advantage over your current method, as it resizes everything you read (not just your own posts) - and it keeps reading more consistent for others.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 15^th, 2009 at 4:09pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

IP Logged

Linda_Howell CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Do not feed the Moderators Posts: 11927 Santa Maria, Ca. Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #94 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 4:35pm I agree with Jimi. Just for giggles I "googled "political debate forums and came up with Eleventy-trillion of them, and I'll betcha not one persons ideas, thoughts or opinions were changed one single iota on any one of them. jest sayin...
Back to top	Hurt people.....hurt people. Think about it. IP Logged

Artonio

CH.com Alumnus

Offline

I Love

Posts: 604
New Castle, Pa
Gender: male

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #95 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 5:41pm

Below is a brief description of Healthcare services adopted in five other countries, Each country is similar in as much as they are wealthy free markets and democracies.

The USA is currently using a GDP of 16.5 and not all of it's citizens are covered.
Use the brief description below to compare to your health care policy.

__________________________________________________

UNITED KINGDOM:

Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) spent on health care: 8.3

Average family premium: None; funded by taxation.

Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. Young people and the elderly are exempt from all drug co-pays.

What is it? The British system is "socialized medicine" because the government both provides and pays for health care. Britons pay taxes for health care, and the government-run National Health Service (NHS) distributes those funds to health care providers. Hospital doctors are paid salaries. General practitioners (GPs), who run private practices, are paid based on the number of patients they see. A small number of specialists work outside the NHS and see private-pay patients.

How does it work? Because the system is funded through taxes, administrative costs are low; there are no bills to collect or claims to review. Patients have a "medical home" in their GP, who also serves as a gatekeeper to the rest of the system; patients must see their GP before going to a specialist. GPs, who are paid extra for keeping their patients healthy, are instrumental in preventive care, an area in which Britain is a world leader.

What are the concerns? The stereotype of socialized medicine -- long waits and limited choice -- still has some truth. In response, the British government has instituted reforms to help make care more competitive and give patients more choice. Hospitals now compete for NHS funds distributed by local Primary Care Trusts, and starting in April 2008 patients are able to choose where they want to be treated for many procedures.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
JAPAN

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 8

Average family premium: $280 per month, with employers paying more than half.

Co-payments: 30 percent of the cost of a procedure, but the total amount paid in a month is capped according to income.

What is it? Japan uses a "social insurance" system in which all citizens are required to have health insurance, either through their work or purchased from a nonprofit, community-based plan. Those who can't afford the premiums receive public assistance. Most health insurance is private; doctors and almost all hospitals are in the private sector.

How does it work? Japan boasts some of the best health statistics in the world, no doubt due in part to the Japanese diet and lifestyle. Unlike the U.K., there are no gatekeepers; the Japanese can go to any specialist when and as often as they like. Every two years the Ministry of Health negotiates with physicians to set the price for every procedure. This helps keeps costs down.

What are the concerns? In fact, Japan has been so successful at keeping costs down that Japan now spends too little on health care; half of the hospitals in Japan are operating in the red. Having no gatekeepers means there's no check on how often the Japanese use health care, and patients may lack a medical home.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
GERMANY

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 10.7

Average family premium: $750 per month; premiums are pegged to patients' income.

Co-payments: 10 euros ($15) every three months; some patients, like pregnant women, are exempt.

What is it? Germany, like Japan, uses a social insurance model. In fact, Germany is the birthplace of social insurance, which dates back to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck. But unlike the Japanese, who get insurance from work or are assigned to a community fund, Germans are free to buy their insurance from one of more than 200 private, nonprofit "sickness funds." As in Japan, the poor receive public assistance to pay their premiums.

How does it work? Sickness funds are nonprofit and cannot deny coverage based on preexisting conditions; they compete with each other for members, and fund managers are paid based on the size of their enrollments. Like Japan, Germany is a single-payment system, but instead of the government negotiating the prices, the sickness funds bargain with doctors as a group. Germans can go straight to a specialist without first seeing a gatekeeper doctor, but they may pay a higher co-pay if they do.

What are the concerns? The single-payment system leaves some German doctors feeling underpaid. A family doctor in Germany makes about two-thirds as much as he or she would in America. (Then again, German doctors pay much less for malpractice insurance, and many attend medical school for free.) Germany also lets the richest 10 percent opt out of the sickness funds in favor of U.S.-style for-profit insurance. These patients are generally seen more quickly by doctors, because the for-profit insurers pay doctors more than the sickness funds.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TAIWAN

Percentage GDP spent on health care: 6.3

Average family premium: $650 per year for a family for four.
Co-payments: 20 percent of the cost of drugs, up to $6.50; up to $7 for outpatient care; $1.80 for dental and traditional Chinese medicine. There are exemptions for major diseases, childbirth, preventive services, and for the poor, veterans, and children.

What is it? Taiwan adopted a "National Health Insurance" model in 1995 after studying other countries' systems. Like Japan and Germany, all citizens must have insurance, but there is only one, government-run insurer. Working people pay premiums split with their employers; others pay flat rates with government help; and some groups, like the poor and veterans, are fully subsidized. The resulting system is similar to Canada's -- and the U.S. Medicare program.

How does it work? Taiwan's new health system extended insurance to the 40 percent of the population that lacked it while actually decreasing the growth of health care spending. The Taiwanese can see any doctor without a referral. Every citizen has a smart card, which is used to store his or her medical history and bill the national insurer. The system also helps public health officials monitor standards and effect policy changes nationwide. Thanks to this use of technology and the country's single insurer, Taiwan's health care system has the lowest administrative costs in the world.

What are the concerns? Like Japan, Taiwan's system is not taking in enough money to cover the medical care it provides. The problem is compounded by politics, because it is up to Taiwan's parliament to approve an increase in insurance premiums, which it has only done once since the program was enacted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
SWITZERLAND

Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
source: Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

with warm regards,
Tony

Back to top

For in our hands lies the ability to shape our world for good or for ill. President Barack Obama

IP Logged

cavalier

Ex Member

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #96 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 7:56pm

Do you know the doctors here earn upto £150000 per year if they can prove they have done some preventative work.
An example,
when i went to the docs last year i saw a newbie, I thought wow! she's taken my blood pessure, asked me to cough( not sure about that one but it was quite nice) sent me for blood tests and i felt like she really cared, then i read if they can show some improvement in my wellbeing and yearly checks she would be in for a bonus to take her to the limit of 150k
Think i should have trained to be a Doctor rather than an Engineer
Same amount of traning but less money in my pocket.
You know! we kiss the medical arses for their expertise but its only because its tangable, there are plenty of Professions that save lives
and look after the health and welfare of the world but its not glamorised on T.V
Get off your soapbox Colin.

Back to top

IP Logged

Click Here to visit the CH.com Facebook page!

Opus CH.com Hall of Famer Offline "We have met the enemy... and he is us" Posts: 2746 Sidney,NY USA Gender:	Re: ICFBI !!! Reply #97 - Mar 15^th, 2009 at 9:37pm Pete, your font is fine with me but sorry to say TLDR. The real problem with American health care is high malpractice awards and malpractice insurance. The Government will never fix that because it will hurt lawyers. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Paul
Back to top	I no longer post because no one cares what I say. IP Logged

HSJones

Locked
Offline

I Love CH.com!

Posts: 14

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #98 - Mar 16^th, 2009 at 8:12am

Bob P wrote on Mar 13^th, 2009 at 5:14pm:

Quote:

According to this article in American Heritage, illegal immigration was invented by Chester Arthur in 1882.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

or

.

Chester may have been the first illegal immigrant but FDR opened the flood gates.

FDR opened the floodgates to immigration? I admire FDR and he saved us from being conquered the the Nazis and Japan, but the one thing that I do not admire about him was his refusal to let a shipful of German Jewish immigrants enter the US before we entered the war-all of them were shipped back to Germany and killed in the concentration camps; I also do not admire him for placing American Japanese in concentration camps. Not only were they illegally denied their freedom, but their personal property and homes were sold at a fraction of their worth at auctions and even today the survivors and their families have not been giving any compensation except for a coupe of thousand dollars. The Neisi (sp?) division, composed of volunteer Japanese Americans fought the Nazis in Europe and was the most highly decorated division in US history DESPITE having their parents and younger siblings being imprisoned for no reason other than being of Japanese Americans. It was the worst abuse of the Constitution and human rights in American history and will never be able to be erased (and by the way, despite taking about 40 years to repay those whose property was illegally seized by the government, the most anyone got was a couple of thousand dollars whereas much of that property is now worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars). Those in the camps (located in deserts) never rioted or caused any troubles and their sons who volunteerd for combat were among the bravest American soldiers that we have ever had (for Hawaii US Senator Daniel Inoue lost an Army in combat in Italy).. While Blacks were not imprisoned, they too served honorably although discriminated against because of their race and the Black fighter pilots, known as the Tuskegee pilots, were also the most decorated combat flying units in WWII. Most blacks were not allowed to be anything but cooks and servants in the Navy and as laborers in the Army. Even today, without Black people volunteering, we woulld have to resort to a draft to fight the "war on terrorism". Think about it. Just one more thing: there was virtually no immigration during Roosevelt's terms in office.

It would have been difficult, if not impossible, for us to have won WWII for it was Black workers who took the place of drafees and harvested the food for our troops and civilians (of course, they were treated poorly-did you know that most of the "Red Ball Express" drivers were Black men? When Truman finally did away with segregation after WWII, our modern armed forces were born. We owe a debt of thanks to them and to the Japanese Americans that can never be fully repaid though, sadly, most Americans have no knowledge of their accomplishments (and one high school SENIOR asked me if the Germans were on our side during WWII!) Cry

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2009 at 8:21am by HSJones »

IP Logged

LeLimey

Ex Member

Re: ICFBI !!!
Reply #99 - Mar 16^th, 2009 at 8:29am

HSJones wrote on Mar 16^th, 2009 at 8:12am:

FDR opened the floodgates to immigration? I admire FDR and he saved us from being conquered the the Nazis and Japan, but the one thing that I do not admire about him was his refusal to let a shipful of German Jewish immigrants enter the US before we entered the war-all of them were shipped back to Germany and killed in the concentration camps; I also do not admire him for placing American Japanese in concentration camps. Not only were they illegally denied their freedom, but their personal property and homes were sold at a fraction of their worth at auctions and even today the survivors and their families have not been giving any compensation except for a coupe of thousand dollars. The Neisi (sp?) division, composed of volunteer Japanese Americans fought the Nazis in Europe and was the most highly decorated division in US history DESPITE having their parents and younger siblings being imprisoned for no reason other than being of Japanese Americans. It was the worst abuse of the Constitution and human rights in American history and will never be able to be erased (and by the way, despite taking about 40 years to repay those whose property was illegally seized by the government, the most anyone got was a couple of thousand dollars whereas much of that property is now worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars). Those in the camps (located in deserts) never rioted or caused any troubles and their sons who volunteerd for combat were among the bravest American soldiers that we have ever had (for Hawaii US Senator Daniel Inoue lost an Army in combat in Italy).. While Blacks were not imprisoned, they too served honorably although discriminated against because of their race and the Black fighter pilots, known as the Tuskegee pilots, were also the most decorated combat flying units in WWII. Most blacks were not allowed to be anything but cooks and servants in the Navy and as laborers in the Army. Even today, without Black people volunteering, we woulld have to resort to a draft to fight the "war on terrorism". Think about it. Just one more thing: there was virtually no immigration during Roosevelt's terms in office.

It would have been difficult, if not impossible, for us to have won WWII for it was Black workers who took the place of drafees and harvested the food for our troops and civilians (of course, they were treated poorly-did you know that most of the "Red Ball Express" drivers were Black men? When Truman finally did away with segregation after WWII, our modern armed forces were born. We owe a debt of thanks to them and to the Japanese Americans that can never be fully repaid though, sadly, most Americans have no knowledge of their accomplishments (and one high school SENIOR asked me if the Germans were on our side during WWII!) Cry

Can anyone say deja POO??? Roll Eyes

Back to top

IP Logged

	Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
	Search box updated Dec 3, 2011... Search ch.com with Google!